So, small bit of background here: I go to a game shop that recently (about a year ago) got into Warmachine and has only recently (year and a half?) evolved from being a comic shop to carrying Magic, board games and other things (they split off from the comic shop at the start of the year to get a larger space).

We had a Press Ganger (Privateer Press volunteer, like the old GW Outriders program), whom I'll call Bob, start coming to the store with the intention to help grow the community. People were immediately hostile to him because supposedly he had a bad reputation in the area (it was never verified, it was basically one of our regulars saying "This Bob guy has been kicked out of every game store in the area, that's why he's coming here"), especially because one other person there (I'll call him Joe) had gotten the initial interest in Warmachine, did a demo game with the owner to sell him on it, etc. and took offense at somebody else coming in and "usurping his community", and told me as much in private that he wouldn't let someone else come in and take control over "his thing".

Joe and I recently became Press Gangers ourselves but Joe has completely twisted the concept and been appointed the "store Press Ganger" by the owner when there is no such thing (in fact, you can't be accepted if you are tied to a store), and I suspect that he only became one to make himself seem like the big shot since he "got Warmachine started here", since he doesn't care about running official events at all. Now, the issue is that Bob is constantly undermined whenever he tries to do something; people will complain to the owner for no reason about him, the owner jumps on him for basically anything (we were talking in the game room once about Press Ganger stuff unrelated to the store after I was accepted, and the owner comes over and starts chewing him out for it, claiming it was disrespectful; Bob's been chewed out for trying to use the store's computer to print out sheets for a tournament, or for trying to organize an official event without getting "permission" to do it, or once for I don't know what but the owner took him outside of the store to talk to him), and in general empowers the people who dislike him, even going so far as telling him (no idea if it's true or not) that people at the shop have complained to PP about Bob. When Bob organized a tournament, there were people talking about boycotting it and not showing up just because Bob was the one doing it. This only happens to Bob, not to me, so it's clear that they are deliberately doing it to him, probably to make him so miserable that he stops coming.

Bob also made some terrain for the store, some of which he casted himself and others which he made from MDF; he also has sold this he told me. People treated the terrain like crap, throwing it around, not being careful, etc. so a few days ago when he wanted to run another tournament (that nobody showed up for and was cancelled) he saw this and said screw it, and took most of his terrain back because people aren't being respectful of his time and money. This now has caused a bit of a stir on our private group where people, including the store owner, seem to be angry at this because they felt it was a donation and not a loan, and again are singling out Bob. In private he's told me that he's not sure if he's coming back to the store, and I told him I can't blame him since there seems to be a very antagonistic approach to his being there and people, including the owner, seem content with treating him poorly to try and run him out. The impression that I get is they want to be a clique and don't like the idea of an "outsider" coming in. They don't seem interested in growing a community or doing official events.

Now, this doesn't really affect me personally as Bob is an adult and can take care of himself, but it's really gnawing at me how bad this guy gets treated, how Joe acts like Bob is a threat that needs to be removed and how the store owner empowers that idea every chance he gets. I think the terrain thing was the last straw because Bob IMHO was right to remove his terrain since people can't treat it with respect, and now there's a lot of hostility at him for doing it as though he's the bad guy. I mean, the guy comes to the store (an hour's drive for him he says) to try and help build the community, and the community is very cliquish and hostile and was basically like "Feth off we don't want you here". from day one It's disturbing.

1. I wouldn't have anything to do with that store or store owner.

2. I would email Privateer Press about Joe's behavior. If he's really "tied to the one store" and that's against their rules, they should know about it.

3. Move along to a better community, if possible.

To much drama in your community, I would look else where to play. When you go to a store your there to relax and enjoy your day the last thing I would want to hear are people's who got the bigger penis issues. Sounds like Joe needs to be taken down a notch or two.

P.S. I don't blame Bob for taking his terrain and going home. Who needs to be treated like that on their own free time

The store owner seems like a tool.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The store owner seems like a tool.

I think he's new to running a game store, and/or having regulars there who might always be like "Bob is such a jerk, Bob is always rude, Bob did X" whisperings.

I'm not 100% sure as like I said I've only observed it and spoken to Bob about it in private briefly when he took the terrain back.

I have to agree that it sounds like time to find a new place to play (not always easy I know).

However the main reason I wanted to reply was to say well done. It sounds like you have always treated Bob fairly and with respect and he is probably grateful that not everyone is a tool to him at the store.

One person can make the difference.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The store owner seems like a tool.

I think he's new to running a game store, and/or having regulars there who might always be like "Bob is such a jerk, Bob is always rude, Bob did X" whisperings.

I'm not 100% sure as like I said I've only observed it and spoken to Bob about it in private briefly when he took the terrain back.

Let me put it bluntly then.

If he's letting cliques run his store, he's doing it wrong.

It's threads like this that remind me how lucky I am with my local GW store. Friendly helpful staff that also run a game club in a different venue on a Monday night. Everyone is welcome at both.

Nothing is too much trouble and they go above and beyond the call of duty. Not just what we should expect from game stores but from all stores.

Wargaming shouldn't have so much drama attached to it

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The store owner seems like a tool.

I think he's new to running a game store, and/or having regulars there who might always be like "Bob is such a jerk, Bob is always rude, Bob did X" whisperings.

I'm not 100% sure as like I said I've only observed it and spoken to Bob about it in private briefly when he took the terrain back.

Let me put it bluntly then.

If he's letting cliques run his store, he's doing it wrong.

Sadly most stores I've seen turn into cliques that don't like "outsiders" coming in to mess up their ecosystem. I've seen it at basically every store I've gone to over a span of years. There's always an established group that wants to run things their way and don't like someone else coming around. In this case it's particularly painful because our locals tend to play fast and loose with the rules, so they become hostile to someone who is experienced.

What bothered me more was the outright hostile attitude towards Bob when other than being a little abrasive (but hey, we're geeks, not exactly known for social skills) at times he's done nothing wrong and has been doing everything in his power to help the community grow. I've seen him get yelled at by the owner for:

* Talking with me in the back room about things we wanted to do at the store, for not involving him (the owner) in the discussion; I think this was Joe's doing as Joe had already gone behind everyone's backs, determined he was going to do an event and cleared it with the owner and then announced it to us when we had set up what was basically a meeting to talk about ideas for events. I recall that Joe came a little late, saw us talking, went right to the owner and then the owner came back and started chewing Bob out for being disrespectful for talking about events in his store without involving him, when previously he had said that it was best to decide and then clear with him afterwards.
* Wanting to use the store computer to print out scenario sheets for a tournament, although to be fair I think Bob was just going to use it without asking, but we also had a tournament scheduled so I guess maybe he thought it went without saying that he could use it.
* Supposed complaints from other people about him, for unknown reasons
* "Cheating" by which I think they meant playing by the rules and using tricks they didn't know were in the rules
* (Insinuated) taking back his terrain which he "donated" because people were disrespectful and treating it poorly. In this discussion one of the regular's piped up that he made some buildings and enjoys the fact that they are used/handled, I guess the point was that Bob is a jerk for taking back terrain that's damaged because the damage means that it's being used.

Maybe you should ask yourself if these are the kind of people you want to spend time with?

Not a good situation to be in

first off as a Press Ganger yourself you need to uphold the rules (and ideals) of the program so you need to inform PP of the issues with Joe/Bob/the store,

and make clear that while you understand they may not pass on information to you about what action they have taken you do want to be informed that action has been taken

After that you've got to decide whether your gaming/ shopping at this store is worth the stress it's clearly giving you

Yeah, that store doesn't sound like a good influence in the community. I think reporting the behaviors of that PG to PP would be a good move.

Also, may I ask, what are the allegations against Bob that make people avoid him?

I would also suggest that you and Bob try to run an event that isn't connected to a specific store. This might cost some money, but if you also advertise outside of the community it might bring in people who are unfamiliar with your local community. I don't know if you can charge an entrance fee for such events since I never actually participated in one but this might be an idea to cover costs for renting a place.

If I were you I would start putting it out there that you have no problem with Bob and that any flaws he has you are mature enough to over look them because the game matters more.

 ProtoClone wrote:
Yeah, that store doesn't sound like a good influence in the community. I think reporting the behaviors of that PG to PP would be a good move.

Also, may I ask, what are the allegations against Bob that make people avoid him?
.

No idea, it was basically before he even showed up one guy was talking about someone matching his description that used to go to a store that closed, and that he was kicked out of there, and supposedly has been kicked out of every other game store in the area. Then when Bob came to our store that person was immediately like that's the guy (not to him of course, to everyone else) so it was more or less him going into a store where people had already been told to watch out for him because he supposedly was so awful that no other game store in the area wanted him and it was assumed he came here because the shop was fairly new. Supposedly, and I don't know this for sure as I wasn't there, when he arrived he made a big deal out of being a Press Ganger and wanting to run official events (he might have said that the shop needed a PG to run official events), so that also rubbed people the wrong way immediately. Supposedly he also got pissy with someone who was proxying some 40k figures for Warmachine figures and told them "Never do that in this shop again", but again I wasn't there and heard it secondhand from people who already didn't like him. I admit when I first met Bob he came off a bit brusque and aggressive, but like I said he's a quintessential nerd so it's not unexpected.

What really got my goat and made me post this was like I said we have a private group, and it got to the terrain discussion. Well, Bob posted something about how they were damaged so he took them back, and one of the regulars posts, and I quote: "Hey Bob here's an idea... Go feth yourself, and find another store!" and the store owner only talked about how the terrain is there for everybody and "I thought when you left the terrain here it was a donation not a loan" and didn't touch on the other guy's comment at all or said how that was inappropriate to say. So it's clear that they don't want him there.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
Yeah, that store doesn't sound like a good influence in the community. I think reporting the behaviors of that PG to PP would be a good move.

Also, may I ask, what are the allegations against Bob that make people avoid him?
.

No idea, it was basically before he even showed up one guy was talking about someone matching his description that used to go to a store that closed, and that he was kicked out of there, and supposedly has been kicked out of every other game store in the area. Then when Bob came to our store that person was immediately like that's the guy (not to him of course, to everyone else) so it was more or less him going into a store where people had already been told to watch out for him because he supposedly was so awful that no other game store in the area wanted him and it was assumed he came here because the shop was fairly new. Supposedly, and I don't know this for sure as I wasn't there, when he arrived he made a big deal out of being a Press Ganger and wanting to run official events (he might have said that the shop needed a PG to run official events), so that also rubbed people the wrong way immediately. Supposedly he also got pissy with someone who was proxying some 40k figures for Warmachine figures and told them "Never do that in this shop again", but again I wasn't there and heard it secondhand from people who already didn't like him. I admit when I first met Bob he came off a bit brusque and aggressive, but like I said he's a quintessential nerd so it's not unexpected.

What really got my goat and made me post this was like I said we have a private group, and it got to the terrain discussion. Well, Bob posted something about how they were damaged so he took them back, and one of the regulars posts, and I quote: "Hey Bob here's an idea... Go feth yourself, and find another store!" and the store owner only talked about how the terrain is there for everybody and "I thought when you left the terrain here it was a donation not a loan" and didn't touch on the other guy's comment at all or said how that was inappropriate to say. So it's clear that they don't want him there.

Have you talked to Bob about these rumors?

Granted, it's bad business to already dislike someone based on hearsay.

 ProtoClone wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
Yeah, that store doesn't sound like a good influence in the community. I think reporting the behaviors of that PG to PP would be a good move.

Also, may I ask, what are the allegations against Bob that make people avoid him?
.

No idea, it was basically before he even showed up one guy was talking about someone matching his description that used to go to a store that closed, and that he was kicked out of there, and supposedly has been kicked out of every other game store in the area. Then when Bob came to our store that person was immediately like that's the guy (not to him of course, to everyone else) so it was more or less him going into a store where people had already been told to watch out for him because he supposedly was so awful that no other game store in the area wanted him and it was assumed he came here because the shop was fairly new. Supposedly, and I don't know this for sure as I wasn't there, when he arrived he made a big deal out of being a Press Ganger and wanting to run official events (he might have said that the shop needed a PG to run official events), so that also rubbed people the wrong way immediately. Supposedly he also got pissy with someone who was proxying some 40k figures for Warmachine figures and told them "Never do that in this shop again", but again I wasn't there and heard it secondhand from people who already didn't like him. I admit when I first met Bob he came off a bit brusque and aggressive, but like I said he's a quintessential nerd so it's not unexpected.

What really got my goat and made me post this was like I said we have a private group, and it got to the terrain discussion. Well, Bob posted something about how they were damaged so he took them back, and one of the regulars posts, and I quote: "Hey Bob here's an idea... Go feth yourself, and find another store!" and the store owner only talked about how the terrain is there for everybody and "I thought when you left the terrain here it was a donation not a loan" and didn't touch on the other guy's comment at all or said how that was inappropriate to say. So it's clear that they don't want him there.

Have you talked to Bob about these rumors?

Granted, it's bad business to already dislike someone based on hearsay.

I have, and he has no idea what they're talking about. Of course Bob could be lying because who wants to make that known if true?

Clearly Joe and the Store owner are behaving like donkeys. That said, this entire situation smacks of folks who haven't sat down and discussed what the rules of play are.

It's probably too late now, but before any of this happened, you, Joe, Bob and the store manager should have a meeting to discuss:
-Who runs demos.
-Who organizes tournaments.
-The disposition of any terrain, game supplies, etc brought to the store for the game (is it a loan or a gift?).
-Who the owner want's to be the "main" contact. PP may not have a hierarchy, but there should be one main contact between a promotional organization and a store.

It sounds like none of this was done and you had two different groups trying to promote the same game. Not surprisingly the community splintered and unpleasantness ensued. As I see it, the situation was doomed from the start.

I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

 Eilif wrote:
Clearly Joe and the Store owner are behaving like donkeys. That said, this entire situation smacks of folks who haven't sat down and discussed what the rules of play are.

It's probably too late now, but before any of this happened, you, Joe, Bob and the store manager should have a meeting to discuss:
-Who runs demos.
-Who organizes tournaments.
-The disposition of any terrain, game supplies, etc brought to the store for the game (is it a loan or a gift?).
-Who the owner want's to be the "main" contact. PP may not have a hierarchy, but there should be one main contact between a promotional organization and a store.

It sounds like none of this was done and you had two different groups trying to promote the same game. Not surprisingly the community splintered and unpleasantness ensued. As I see it, the situation was doomed from the start.

Well, I think the problems are:

A) Bob came to the store and was immediately singled out as TFG in part because one or more regulars had heard/spread the rumor that he had been kicked out of other stores

B) Joe considers the entire community "his" because he brought it up to the store originally and got it started

C) We had barely any terrain at the store, especially not appropriate terrain (huge walls and the like that aren't really supported by the game), so Bob brought his own and made terrain for tournaments (markers and such) with his own time and money so we would have some things there.

D) Joe has no desire to do anything outside of the store, his goal is to keep the store open not foster a community. However, Joe has been designated the store's Press Ganger because he brought Warmachine to the store, even though he doesn't do anything in that capacity. Basically, for what he wanted to do (run unofficial events at the store) he didn't need to be a Press Ganger.

E) At least some regulars really dislike Bob for unknown reasons, and create a hostile environment for him that the store owner perpetuates and even instigates sometimes (i.e. constantly chewing Bob out for trivial things)

It's a bad situation all around, for everybody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

You know, I've noticed that a lot of stores do have that mentality. The people strongly discourage even talking about other stores because it's seen as "stealing" customers from "their" store. The groups that play at Store A become a clique and rarely venture out of Store A, and if someone from Store B says "Hey there's a tournament at Store B this weekend" they're likely to be met with hostility or be told to GTFO. I don't get it. I never got the idea. At one point I had like 4-5 stores within around 30 miles, and very rarely did any of them collude; two of them were in basically open war because the WHFB group played at one store and then found there wasn't room, and went to another store instead and it was seen as high treason. I even once, years ago, had a store owner tell me never to talk about other stores because "it's pretty rude to talk about another store in front of the owner of the store you're in". That was like over 10 years ago, and i still see that mentality going on constantly.

Game stores are just like street gangs I guess.

Sining wrote:
Wargaming shouldn't have so much drama attached to it

you haVery human beings, we are likely to get clicky

WayneTheGame wrote:


Well, I think the problems are:

A) Bob came to the store and was immediately singled out as TFG in part because one or more regulars had heard/spread the rumor that he had been kicked out of other stores

B) Joe considers the entire community "his" because he brought it up to the store originally and got it started

C) We had barely any terrain at the store, especially not appropriate terrain (huge walls and the like that aren't really supported by the game), so Bob brought his own and made terrain for tournaments (markers and such) with his own time and money so we would have some things there.

D) Joe has no desire to do anything outside of the store, his goal is to keep the store open not foster a community. However, Joe has been designated the store's Press Ganger because he brought Warmachine to the store, even though he doesn't do anything in that capacity. Basically, for what he wanted to do (run unofficial events at the store) he didn't need to be a Press Ganger.

E) At least some regulars really dislike Bob for unknown reasons, and create a hostile environment for him that the store owner perpetuates and even instigates sometimes (i.e. constantly chewing Bob out for trivial things)

It's a bad situation all around, for everybody.

You can think that, and you'd be partly right, but what you're listing are symptoms. You're missing the root problems. Most of that could have been avoided with a sit down when Bob entered the picture and one when you and Joe were added as pressgangers. I'm not denying that Joe, the initial gossiping wargamers and the managers are acting like donkeys, because they are. However, the conditions for such unpleasantness were present from the very beginning as expectations and responsibilities were not communicated to the involved parties.

Interestingly, I see lack of communication in alot of the conflicts that are perennially posted at a dakka.
-The TFG's that continue to cause problems because they are not reported to store officials
-The WAACs and Fluff-Bunnies (deliberately using the slang terms here) who can't spend 30 seconds before a game to determine what sort of game they are looking for and maybe decide that they shouldn't play each other because they don't want the same thing out of the game.
etc, etc.

None of the details matter.

What matters is that the store doesn't like Bob and that they treat him, and his stuff like gak. They don't even show basic courtesy or respect to him. Bob was absolutely right to take his stuff and go home. If he told the owner and the crowd to go feth themselves, that would have been epic.

The only real question for the OP is whether he wants to be associated with the store any more.

I'd find a different store after telling the owner exactly why.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'd find a different store after telling the owner exactly why.

Definitely a good idea if there's one around. Life's to short to spend time in that kind of environment.

At least your store knows what Warmachine is. Or anything but Magic and Yugioh.

Having been a Hobby Store manager before, I can add a couple of comments here and there. This is by no means comprehensive.

1. There should be no debate as to whether or not terrain left in the store is a donation or a loan. If it's a loan, get something in writing. If it's a donation, get something in writing. If the owner/manager sells/dies and you've left stuff in the store with nothing in writing... you basically have no way to prove your claim. Root cause = break down in communication.

2. There should be no debate as to who will be organizing and running events in the store. The store manager/owner SHOULD have final say over the events that occur in his store. This can be as loose as an agreement to reserve a particular day of the week for PP activities or as strict as requiring sign off before events are advertised. Ultimately, this is ALWAYS the owner/managers say. Root cause = break down in communication.

3. There should be no pre-judging of new community members. The store owner/manager has 100% control over this practice. If he sees it happening, he needs to come down like a tons of bricks and stop it immediately. A welcoming community is a healthy community. Alienating new community members => shrinking community => store goes out of business. Root cause = poor community leadership.

All of the other nonsense about multiple Press Gangers and petty bickering between customers should really be a 5 minute conversation between owner/manager and customer. "This isn't how we do things here. If you want to continue to be welcome here, you'll follow our code of conduct." And you NEED to have a Code of Conduct posted. People who don't follow these rules WILL poison your community over time. Noone should ever feel unwelcome.

Impromptu Example Code of Conduct...
1. You will practice good hygiene.
2. You will say please and thank you and refrain from using foul language.
3. You will respect other people's things. Ask before touching.
4. You will understand and respect that some people are more competitive while others are only interested in background/painting.
5. You will ALWAYS be open and welcoming to new customers. Without new customers you will run out of opponents and the store will close.
6. etc, etc, etc

TL : DR ; - The store has crap leadership and crap flows downhill. Until management is replaced or improves, nothing will change.

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

Good god, this sounds like something that happens in primary school. How old are these store mouth breathers? Sounds like it's time to leave that bunch and take your custom elsewhere. Bob was right to take his terrain back. Report this Joe fool to PP.

If that place is being run like that, I can't see it surviving too long as it doesn't sound a very welcoming place. Wonder what these CPM's do if a respectable personage walks into 'their' store? Probably scare them off in some fashion - can't have the normals about making the place pleasant

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

My view is just... I really hate the clique mentality that I constantly see, especially in an organized game that has volunteers whose job is to promote the game to the community, not to a particular store.

Sure saying "Hey everyone XYZ Store has 20% off all of their products" is rude and not appropriate (but maybe if it was a special sale or something), but saying "The PG over at Store XYZ says they're having a 50 point tournament this weekend if anyone wants to attend" should not only be fine but be welcomed by the community as a whole.

I would not be surprised if that was Bob's "sin" at other stores.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

If the store across town also offers gaming space, then it is up to which one is better, the same way I go to the restaurant with better service and a cleaner restaurant as well as better food.

In your example, you are comparing restaurants, but you don't plan to actually order food at either, just bring your PB&J from home and sit at a nice table and have them bring you free bread.

Face it... at some level, if you occupy space in a store, they deserve some of your business. Most stores want good events, nice people and nice tables to be an added value to promote customers... but some customers will never buy regardless how good the events are, how nice the people are and how nice the tables are and often those people are human cancer because they are actively trying to undermine the FLGS.

If another store offers a better space, and better times for gaming, then they deserve the customers who flock to it from the other place. The trick is to gain good customers through good added value without gaining the 'outcasts' from other FLGS who were thrown out basically for being 'non-customers' with bad attitudes. There is a difference between abusing actual customers with a guilt trip and calling out actual deadbeats on being an antisocial and destructive influence on a store.

This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

If the store across town also offers gaming space, then it is up to which one is better, the same way I go to the restaurant with better service and a cleaner restaurant as well as better food.

In your example, you are comparing restaurants, but you don't plan to actually order food at either, just bring your PB&J from home and sit at a nice table and have them bring you free bread.

Face it... at some level, if you occupy space in a store, they deserve some of your business. Most stores want good events, nice people and nice tables to be an added value to promote customers... but some customers will never buy regardless how good the events are, how nice the people are and how nice the tables are and often those people are human cancer because they are actively trying to undermine the FLGS.

If another store offers a better space, and better times for gaming, then they deserve the customers who flock to it from the other place. The trick is to gain good customers through good added value without gaining the 'outcasts' from other FLGS who were thrown out basically for being 'non-customers' with bad attitudes. There is a difference between abusing actual customers with a guilt trip and calling out actual deadbeats on being an antisocial and destructive influence on a store.

Tables are a service anyone can have and alol stores do. Again, tell me why I should buy from a stores except " they have tables and you should feel guilty if you don't buy from them"

Do you have other FLGS options?

If so, I would bail on that store and Joe.

If you like Bob, talk with Bob about growing the game elsewhere.

Stores provide a space to play for people who don't have that space. They also form a focus point for a community.
If those don't appeal to you, then FLGS's aren't for you. But for some, those things are quite important.
I move around a lot and rely on Pick Up Games. They're places I need to find opponents.
My current FLGS offers discounts, but they also put on tournaments and organize sales, services and matches. I consider that enough added value to warrant slightly higher prices than an on-line store.

Here's a thought: grow a pair and stick up for Bob in public the next time something you think is unfair happens.

The clique running the store sound like they're being a bunch of bullies. So stand up to them.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

Weren't you kicked out of your local store? Not sure well I can ascribe to your statements when you are "that guy" who wants to play and socialize with his friends at a store yet basically hates the stores for the services and gaming space they provide. If people don't support the store in any fashion yet expect the full services to be offered for free then they are effectively a parasite.

(parasite as in gamers leeching off a stores resources for no gain, not in a sense of personal character attack)

I was kicked out because the owner insulted my friend for working at another shop.
I stood up for my friend and got banned.

WayneTheGame wrote:
So, small bit of background here: I go to a game shop that recently (about a year ago) got into Warmachine and has only recently (year and a half?) evolved from being a comic shop to carrying Magic, board games and other things (they split off from the comic shop at the start of the year to get a larger space).

We had a Press Ganger (Privateer Press volunteer, like the old GW Outriders program), whom I'll call Bob, start coming to the store with the intention to help grow the community. People were immediately hostile to him because supposedly he had a bad reputation in the area (it was never verified, it was basically one of our regulars saying "This Bob guy has been kicked out of every game store in the area, that's why he's coming here"), especially because one other person there (I'll call him Joe) had gotten the initial interest in Warmachine, did a demo game with the owner to sell him on it, etc. and took offense at somebody else coming in and "usurping his community", and told me as much in private that he wouldn't let someone else come in and take control over "his thing".

Joe and I recently became Press Gangers ourselves but Joe has completely twisted the concept and been appointed the "store Press Ganger" by the owner when there is no such thing (in fact, you can't be accepted if you are tied to a store), and I suspect that he only became one to make himself seem like the big shot since he "got Warmachine started here", since he doesn't care about running official events at all. Now, the issue is that Bob is constantly undermined whenever he tries to do something; people will complain to the owner for no reason about him, the owner jumps on him for basically anything (we were talking in the game room once about Press Ganger stuff unrelated to the store after I was accepted, and the owner comes over and starts chewing him out for it, claiming it was disrespectful; Bob's been chewed out for trying to use the store's computer to print out sheets for a tournament, or for trying to organize an official event without getting "permission" to do it, or once for I don't know what but the owner took him outside of the store to talk to him), and in general empowers the people who dislike him, even going so far as telling him (no idea if it's true or not) that people at the shop have complained to PP about Bob. When Bob organized a tournament, there were people talking about boycotting it and not showing up just because Bob was the one doing it. This only happens to Bob, not to me, so it's clear that they are deliberately doing it to him, probably to make him so miserable that he stops coming.

Bob also made some terrain for the store, some of which he casted himself and others which he made from MDF; he also has sold this he told me. People treated the terrain like crap, throwing it around, not being careful, etc. so a few days ago when he wanted to run another tournament (that nobody showed up for and was cancelled) he saw this and said screw it, and took most of his terrain back because people aren't being respectful of his time and money. This now has caused a bit of a stir on our private group where people, including the store owner, seem to be angry at this because they felt it was a donation and not a loan, and again are singling out Bob. In private he's told me that he's not sure if he's coming back to the store, and I told him I can't blame him since there seems to be a very antagonistic approach to his being there and people, including the owner, seem content with treating him poorly to try and run him out. The impression that I get is they want to be a clique and don't like the idea of an "outsider" coming in. They don't seem interested in growing a community or doing official events.

Now, this doesn't really affect me personally as Bob is an adult and can take care of himself, but it's really gnawing at me how bad this guy gets treated, how Joe acts like Bob is a threat that needs to be removed and how the store owner empowers that idea every chance he gets. I think the terrain thing was the last straw because Bob IMHO was right to remove his terrain since people can't treat it with respect, and now there's a lot of hostility at him for doing it as though he's the bad guy. I mean, the guy comes to the store (an hour's drive for him he says) to try and help build the community, and the community is very cliquish and hostile and was basically like "Feth off we don't want you here". from day one It's disturbing.

Jesus. I feel like i'm reading a recap of a playgroup i was involved in years ago. Seems like all parties handled at least parts badly, though I tend to fall on "Bob's" side of things a bit more, as there doesn't seem to be any factual support for all the misanthropy directed Bob's way other than "cuz its him and cuz stories i heard"... which usually tends to be a poor burden of proof.

I can't promise you it will end well for all involved, but i can promise you this. There will be butthurt feelings, and assured righteous proclamations of "being right" on both sides.

This situation is a quagmire. Proceed with caution.

For what it's worth... I have found in the decade plus since that avoiding cliquey drama ridden playgroups is the best bet. If your playgroup just always seems to have some drama going on, it's likely that the playgroup is a bunch of misfits with no other place to go that are attacking each other (overtly or subvertly) because they don't honestly like each other, but have no one else to play with (either because no one else like gaming with the hostile clique / coterie, or because it's the only group that plays those games around, etc. Or a little from column A and B).

Or hell, maybe its just honest personality clashes that they just genuinely get rubbed wrong by Bob.

I can say this. Bob is better off being a pressganger somewhere elsewise than that store, and that Store is better off if Bob doensn't come around.

... and a word of advice ; beware becoming the next "Bob". I've seen it happen, even to an "insider" to the clique. Like i said ; playgroups that just always seem to have SOME kind of drama going on, it's usually indicative of something deeper going on.




Not for the last time i'm glad my three most often opponents are quite literally my best friends.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The store owner seems like a tool.

I think he's new to running a game store, and/or having regulars there who might always be like "Bob is such a jerk, Bob is always rude, Bob did X" whisperings.

I'm not 100% sure as like I said I've only observed it and spoken to Bob about it in private briefly when he took the terrain back.

Let me put it bluntly then.

If he's letting cliques run his store, he's doing it wrong.

* (Insinuated) taking back his terrain which he "donated" because people were disrespectful and treating it poorly. In this discussion one of the regular's piped up that he made some buildings and enjoys the fact that they are used/handled, I guess the point was that Bob is a jerk for taking back terrain that's damaged because the damage means that it's being used.

I just wanted to pay extra special attention to this point.

This. This gak right here. This is why i hate most gamers. This is why i can't fething stand most cliques of gamers.

Because it's this pig-pile pack mentality group think craven bs that drives me insane. "Imma say something clearly stupid and counter-intuitive, because it backs up a fallacious point one of mah homies is making. Why yes, i appreciate it when BIlly juggles with my GW Watchtower terrain, because Terrence is a tool, and doesn't like it when someone juggles with his watchtower terrain, but Billy is my homie, so GROUP THINK ENGAGED! RAWR!"

Omfg, i just got transported back about a decade ago to the massive gak laden groupthink fething bs i used to deal with. Ugh. This posted needed a trigger warning over Nerd Rage at Nerds.

I would run for the goddamn hills from this playgroup. Don't look back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

I play probably 40% of my games at my house, and 60% at my local shop, so i am totally with you. I'm also lucky that my FLGS fething rules though, so there's that.

I guess i'm spoiled.

nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

WayneTheGame wrote:
My view is just... I really hate the clique mentality that I constantly see, especially in an organized game that has volunteers whose job is to promote the game to the community, not to a particular store.

Then be the hammer to crack open this clique.

Round em all up and talk to them all as an adult

Otherwise move on.

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

Except that's not what most stores do. They could put up a sign saying "Tables cost $5 per hour" or "X hours of table rental free with every $Y purchase" and treat the tables as another product to buy. But they don't, they put the tables out for free and then whine about how you're not "supporting the store" if you don't spend at least some undefined and completely arbitrary amount of money. And that's the guilt trip, instead of selling you a service honestly at an agreed-on price they try to guilt you into donating money.

I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

The problem is my friend just doesn't get why people have an adverse reaction to him and assumes that everyone is just out to get him. I've tried explaining it to him but he just can't see that it's his own behavior that's driving people to dislike him. He feels completely snubbed because the store wants to work with the other press ganger that people actually like and respond positively to.

Not saying that this is the case here but it's easy for people to assume it's everyone else being a jerk towards them and fail to realize they have some serious shortcomings which are causing people to react negatively.

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high end tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

The problem is my friend just doesn't get why people have an adverse reaction to him and assumes that everyone is just out to get him. I've tried explaining it to him but he just can't see that it's his own behavior that's driving people to dislike him. He feels completely snubbed because the store wants to work with the other press ganger that people actually like and respond positively to.

Not saying that this is the case here but it's easy for people to assume it's everyone else being a jerk towards them and fail to realize they have some serious shortcomings which are causing peopel to react negatively.

This can totally be the case too ; i've been there too, that there's a great local scene and then... a person or people try coming to that scene, and it's just oil and water.

However having been on both sides of the fence, and i totally agree that what you posit can happen, there's a LOT of earmarks from Wayne's original post that infer toxic environment. Having been through it, there's way too many familiar points in Wayne's telling of the situation that ring very true.

It might be that Bob just rubs people wrong (and ya know what, i'll even go out on a limb and say "hell, there's a little bit of that in there"), but he's describing a textbook toxic playgroup / store / environment.

I still recommend running for a new locale and never looking back.

The issue is that a toxic players rep preceeds them in a lot of places. Everyone dislikes gaming against my friend and even people that haven't met him before have managed to hear about how crappy it is to game with him. So even when he goes to a new place people are like oh it's "the dude" as they know very well about his rep even if they are just meeting(which is well deserved) "The Dude" is the alter ego asshat agressive persona that he's intentionally developed and pursued yet he claims to have no clue why people dislike him, he won't admit it but he enjoys being the local pariah. If he can't get people to game with him in friendly games (because they ignore him) he does his letter best to destroy the enjoyment factor for anyone at the tournaments as he won't be excluded from those. (if any of the shop owners had any sense they'd just ban him and the event turn out would rise pretty dramatically)

I've known the guy for 20 years and outside of gaming he's not a bad guy, but I absolutely refuse to play any sort of game with him period. As he just transforms into "The Dude" anytime he games and it's terrible. He routinely gets mad at me because I refuse to game with him but I'll go game with other people.

The OP said he doesn't know what went on at previous stores so it may be possible that something along those lines occured, or mistaken identity for a different "that guy". Hard to say since it seems to be a hold over from previous events.


My friend desperately wants to be a good pres ganger and have a sea of other WM players grow around but his personality is in direct conflict with it. He builds terrain, sets up event dates, and even loans out models to beginning players but is flabbergasted when nobody shows, but they go to the other pressganger's stuff when he doesn't due a 1/3rd the work. The other guys is just a chill person that people enjoy being around and don't feel like they are being harrassed for showing up. He's a nice guy who does a decent job with helping run things at the store, but my friend cries about him like he was Satan himself. His Ego is simply huge and people don't want to deal with his aggression, and he's just not capable of understanding this. (due to the inflated Ego part)

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

 stanman wrote:
The issue is that a toxic players rep preceeds them in a lot of places. Everyone dislikes gaming against my friend and even people that haven't met him before have managed to hear about how crappy it is to game with him. So even when he goes to a new place people are like oh it's "the dude" as they know very well about his rep even if they are just meeting(which is well deserved) "The Dude" is the alter ego asshat agressive persona that he's intentionally developed and pursued yet he claims to have no clue why people dislike him, he won't admit it but he enjoys being the local pariah. If he can't get people to game with him in friendly games (because they ignore him) he does his letter best to destroy the enjoyment factor for anyone at the tournaments as he won't be excluded from those. (if any of the shop owners had any sense they'd just ban him and the event turn out would rise pretty dramatically)

I've known the guy for 20 years and outside of gaming he's not a bad guy, but I absolutely refuse to play any sort of game with him period. As he just transforms into "The Dude" anytime he games and it's terrible. He routinely gets mad at me because I refuse to game with him but I'll go game with other people.

The OP said he doesn't know what went on at previous stores so it may be possible that something along those lines occured, or mistaken identity for a different "that guy". Hard to say since it seems to be a hold over from previous events.

Yeah sounds about right regarding your friend. I know the type. "Its not enough that I win, you have to lose" type... and i don't mean competitively gaming either, i mean that kind of abrasive attitude.


That said, Wayne's account cannot confirm where Bob's "rep" came from ; but does include some personally witnessed super gakky toxic things like Store Owner yelling at BOb, Group Think Pack Clique Tactics, etc etc.


I'm open to the fact that "bob" might be just a royal asshat that drives this particular crew absolutely insane to the point of behaving really poorly.... or is it that they're a group of dousches to start with, and they have a convienent new target in an outsider ?

I think probably the truth is somewhere in the middle, probably closer to column B in my opinion.... but who the hell honestly knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Oh god. Not page 5.

What an otherwise great game tainted by that gakky late 90's MOUNTAIN DEW XTRME marketing message. I haven't played in several years, but have they jettisoned that nonsense yet ? Hated it even when i was an infernal for them, and openly spoke against it. I wasn't alone on the infernal team either (at that time / era).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Keep your head down, find the nice gamers, arrange times to meet and play.

Buy small supply stuff where non-competitive pricing is no big deal.

Make it so the clique does not have relevance.
The problem is trying to address a group rather than individuals. Those are two different social styles and sometimes we just suck at one of them.

Yeah, owners try to pull loyalty bull, I say supply what I want and we are good. An environment to play increases exposure for impulse buys so the tables are an "investment".

It is too bad with Bob, sometimes it is just by trying too hard.
A kind of desperation for being accepted that repels and some ridicule. Rather sad really.

I figure people should only "reward" good behavior, see what you can do OP in that regard, good luck!

I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A


He's perfect for South Park's anger management:

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386588/the-root-of-anger#source=473fef35-48a7-434c-afc6-207874c7f1a3:3e461270-ed01-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30&position=9&sort=playlist

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

I think it's simpler than that.
"you want us to stay open buy something"

I say this to customers who bang on about my niche shop i work in being expensive or say i could get it cheaper there. <--- this last statement is the height of rudeness

It's not guilt it's a statement of fact.
If they want convenience of having a shop they can drop in and pick stuff up from and well talk and game (not that people game in my shop) well you'll spend the money in the shop. otherwise don't have a shop. and no drinks and snacks aren't enough to keep a shop open by themselves, shops have rent to pay. $2 profit per customer per visit just does not cut it.


OH and Wayne, gl man, least i can understand why you have been so angsty of the PP boards. I was stasrting to wonder how you could be a PG with a negative attitude, now i see what you are up against.
And for the rest of you it's friggin CLIQUE, not click. I have no idea why this annoys me so much, it's almost up there with loose as opposed to lose, i cant even spell myself but these two really annoy me

 stanman wrote:
I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A


He's perfect for South Park's anger management: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386586/anger-management-class

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?


What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

So, what are you wanting to do at this point OP?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

 Bullockist wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

I think it's simpler than that.
"you want us to stay open buy something"

I say this to customers who bang on about my niche shop i work in being expensive or say i could get it cheaper there.

It's not guilt it's a statement of fact.
If they want convenience of having a shop they can drop in and pick stuff up from and well talk and game (not that people game in my shop) well you'll spend the money in the shop. otherwise don't have a shop. and no drinks and snacks aren't enough to keep a shop open by themselves, shops have rent to pay. $2 profit per customer per visit just does not cut it.


OH and Wayne, gl man, least i can understand why you have been so angsty of the PP boards. I was stasrting to wonder how you could be a PG with a negative attitude, now i see what you are up against.
And for the rest of you it's friggin CLIQUE, not click. I have no idea why this annoys me so much, it's almost up there with loose as opposed to lose, i cant even spell myself but these two really annoy me

ok, what if I'm done with my army, or broke and just want a game and have no planned purchases for the foreseeable future, or only want to add forge world to your army? What do I do then? Not GA email because I am not planning on buying?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

Sauceman all i am saying is if you don't want the shop to be open, don't spend money. If you want it to be open, spend money. I just don't get how people expect hobby stores to stay open magically (not directed at you personally) "I spend $20 there a month, they'll be open for ever!". If it's a Fekkin Niche store you have to support it, money for niche stores is not otiose

 Haight wrote:

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?


What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

I hate the term but he's in the frenemies category. Main reason I talk to him is that I feel bad for him as he doesn't have many friends (with total justification) I've found his constant negativity over the years to be overwhelming which is why I tightly limit my interaction with him and always keep it non gaming. He's gotten worse over the years and if he'd been this bad when I first knew him I wouldn't have hung out with him, now I put up with it simply because I've known him so long and I never game with him.

He is literally my group's Cartman, there's no reason why we hang out with him outside of the fact he's there. Just like in every episode they should just walk away from Cartman and never look back yet for some reason they don't.

 Bullockist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

I think page 5 is a blemish on war machine tbh. It's a great game, but too many people I see use it as justification for anew abrasive attitude.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

Amen! Though we're more of the Basement-gamer variety.
My club meets mostly at members homes (we do the FLGS every few months). None of this drama, hurt feelings, etc. Things headed toward nastyness once a couple years ago and I (as the organizer) stepped in set the parties strait. There's been nothing but good times since!

There's alot to be said for being able to be choosy in your choice of opponents.

There is nothing about a game store that says you don't have to be choosy about your opponents. There is nothing saying you have to be social with everyone. But it does mean you have to maintain a level of common courtesy.

Nor does having a private or group space mean there can't be drama.

Just because you have a nice group that plays at home, doesn't mean you need to find excuses to poo poo game stores.

My local game store is a great place to hang out, meet new gamers, and so on. If someone comes in and is a pain, no one games with them, just like with any group.

In fact, the biggest drama in store in my area has actually been from a group that tended to play locally getting really self-righteous and storming off all huffypuffy.

There's good and bad stores, and there's good an bad groups. But first and foremost, there's good and bad individual players.

And a lot of times I see messages like this, I'm doubtful of the content because, to be frank, from posts all through my gaming life there's a 50/50 chance that the person posting is the problem just as much as the people being complained about are.

 Vertrucio wrote:

Just because you have a nice group that plays at home, doesn't mean you need to find excuses to poo poo game stores.

Woah tiger.
I didn't dis FLGS, I just expressed how pleased I was to have a home-based group where I can exercise a greater degree of influence over the the participants and their behavior.
You can be choosy anywhere, but I maintain it's a bit easier to be sure of the quality of person you'll be facing in an established private group than an open arena like a FLGS.

I've had some good games at my FLGS, but the last 4 years of being the organizer for a game club have been the best-quality and least-drama gaming of my life. YMMV, but I wouldn't trade this stable group of mature and like-minded gamers for the FLGS scene unless I had no choice.

Three other contributing factors to my point of view:
-Our club only plays painted figures. When we do our game night at the club (about once every couple of months) the painted miniature situation is less than inspiring.
-Our club focuses on the kind of indie miniatures and games that I'm really interested in.
-Many of our club members have become close personal friends of mine. You can of course make great friends at the FLGS too, but the home environment is ideal for this.

Nah, I was talking about others getting more extreme in this thread. I actually play a mix of home and at store, and even once a month at another home for an intense boardgame night. I don't find the two any different save for where you are and what you imbibe.

That said, you don't have to trade anything, it never was a trade, nor is it a separate thing. It's just gaming, wherever you choose to play.

I am more welcoming of new people than most though, it's very difficult to annoy me at anything save for cheating, that and exclusivity mindsets. I was around during the dark times of miniature gaming after the collapse of a bunch of games and communities, so rebuilding communities after they went to other stuff was difficult.

I find that there are some groups (probably not yours) that are pointlessly exclusive, and eventually that turns to a weird elitism that I see show up in forums, and in daily interactions, which goes against the idea of building more and better gaming communities, regardless of where you play. I see the hobby as, "Yeah! we're playing tabletop games together!" I don't need to see the hobby as, "Yeah, I'm away from those filhty plebeians!" to enjoy myself.

The store owner has no obligation to welcome Bob.
Bob should take his queue leave and go elsewhere, however discerning gamers should go with him, it's clearly the better half of the community.

 Bullockist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

The proof is in the attitude of the WAAChole WMH players, which you are doing a pretty good job of displaying. It's OK, and I'm glad you've found a game that appreciates "your kind".

Immediately jumping to calling people WAACholes, aka namecalling, doesn't really bring people to your side of the argument.

There are those guys all over the place, in or out of stores and game groups. I've seen more of those types in Yu Gi Oh and Magic, Flames of War, and the Warhammer games while out and about the gaming scene.

So that type is not restricted to Warmachine, and no more common than any other game. Warmachine is probably the second most popular miniature game out there, that popularity means more players, more events, and thus more chances to encounter those types.

I don't play Warmachine often, but when I do I don't see many of those types, or I just naturally avoid those rarities. As others have said in this thread, just because those types exist doesn't mean you, or anyone, has to play with them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

The proof is in the attitude of the WAAChole WMH players, which you are doing a pretty good job of displaying. It's OK, and I'm glad you've found a game that appreciates "your kind".

What 'attitude' is he displaying though?

'Your kind'? 'Waachole WMH players'? You talk about attitude, and yet, Youre being just as Dismissive and Elitist, no?

You've also quoted mark 1's page 5. Which was extremely over the top. Amusing, but ott. It Also mentioned driving over your grandmas house.Nothing like it any more. In fact, current says page 5 is never an excuse to be a jerk.

For the record, the five tenets of page 5.

Thou shalt not whine.
Come heavy or don't come at all.
Give as good as you get.
Win graciously and lose valiantly.
Page five is not an excuse.

And some quotes for you from page 5 with regard to its last point. ' It's not permission to be a jackass.' 'It not a shield to hide behind.' 'Page 5 is never, ever EVER a licence to diminish another player so you can inflate your own vertically challenged self esteem'. Pretty much the opposite of what you claim it to be.

You're right. Page 5 should define the WMH player. It should define every player, full stop. Those five points above? Thry should be everyone's mantra. 'We all come here to battle out of a common love. Respect page 5. Respect each other'. But page 5 does not define, encourage or embrace WAAC culture by any stretch of the imagination. Saying it does - I'm sorry,but that's innacurate, it's a disservice to all the decent players of the game to just be labeled as you've done.

I'm still trying to figure out what attitude I am displaying. I just said to be a good sport. If that's waac then sign me up. You garage banished sound like a right barrel of laughs. I do find it interesting that modern trolls hang in garages not under bridges.

If you're not seeing the attitude behind the words, no amount of pointing will help. Same with PP trying to softpedal the words with a wink and a nudge in later editions. They can't take back who they are, nor the sort of players they want to attract.

Suffice to say, there is a lot more going on than merely being a "good sport".

Regardless, if a game / group / ethos / whatever "fits", then that's great. Rock on.

Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

It seems you're being less of a good sport in this topic. That's a giant load of cognitive dissonance there.

Grasping onto a single thread and reading way too much into it is just another kind of, that guy-ism.

I'd take the guy you're arguing with over some guy overreacting on a forum, unwilling to let go of some slight from what is it now, 10 years ago?

Ugh. The second page 5 came up i knew this thread would go off the rails.


I used to be an infernal for them, and i can tell you that the message has always been mostly the same, but the delivery mechanism and extremity of delivery behind page 5 has changed. It started out as that late ninetimes, early 00's "adrenaline infused Triple Xtreme !!!!" kind of marketing message that was popular in the era. There certainly were the elements of the "play hard, play fair, play nice, be a good sport, don't be a jerk" thing its evolved into, but Prime MK 1's Page 5 (if any of you still have a copy) was over the damn top.

It later got a lot of heat for a lot of reasons, and they very cleverly evolved it into a toned down version of the " IN YOUR FACE XTREME!" marketing style, into what it was by the time i left the Infernals (Which was just before the book with the Hordes Gargantuans in them... its been a while i forget its name). THAT SAID... the message always has (with various levels of machismo) been "Play hard, Play Fair, Play Nice, Don't be a dick."


THat said, if we want to talk about Page 5, can we start another thread, because this one's getting hi jacked by that, and it's not what this thread is about. Because you can't mention anything about Page 5 without any thread getting way, way off topic, and ultimately this thread is about social interactions between groups and people at stores ; it is anecdotal to the point of the thread that some of the people are Pressgangers, and thereby tangentially involves Privateer at all.


Seriously. No one is going to convince Page 5 is good that doesn't like it, and no one is going to convince its bad to those that do like it.


(FWIW because i know tensions run high and there's clearly Pro and Anti Warmachine players in this thread, though i don't play it anymore, I happen to think it's one of the better games on the market, and that the way (most of the time) PP goes to market is brilliant. If my signature is back working from last evening, then on the flip side of the coin i have tens of thousands of WHFB armies, so i'm trying to be unbiased here).

Please take the Page 5 talk elsewhere. It has nothing to do with the situation here. I don't think Bob came in all "Page 5, fethers! No sissies here!" But probably made it clear he wanted to run official events since he's a PG and that made him sound like a jerk for "forcing" that playstyle on the rest since they basically could give a rats behind about official anything. He also came in during an unofficial slow grow league so I'm pretty sure that the whole "I can run official events" is what rubbed people the wrong way. For a little while on days he didn't get down to the shop others would joke around about "wait this isn't an official game Bob isn't here!"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

Some do. Sure. Just like some moms make sure their kids learn proper spelling and grammar and some don't.

However, I've had excellent experiences with FLGS that don't guilt you into anything, host nightly events for various game systems, are pleasant to talk to, leave you alone when you want to browse, and allow you to play most any game and meet new players. Painting all game stores and owner with the label of "Guilt tripping, greed mongers" is neither fair nor accurate.

I've met good friends through casual game nights at game stores. It's still an excellent way to meet new people, make a gaming group, and learn which people to avoid.

 kronk wrote:
Some do. Sure. Just like some moms make sure their kids learn proper spelling and grammar and some don't.

However, I've had excellent experiences with FLGS that don't guilt you into anything, host nightly events for various game systems, are pleasant to talk to, leave you alone when you want to browse, and allow you to play most any game and meet new players. Painting all game stores and owner with the label of "Guilt tripping, greed mongers" is neither fair nor accurate.

I've met good friends through casual game nights at game stores. It's still an excellent way to meet new people, make a gaming group, and learn which people to avoid.

Not to derail my own thread (especially since I posted a similar thread on this exact topic a few weeks ago) IMHO a store needs to offer more than just table space in this day and age. When you're competing with 30% discount, usually no sales tax so the discount is really 30% not less, and receiving an item in a few days by ordering online, not to mention often a much wider selection of stock, "I have tables for you to play at" just doesn't cut it anymore. Only a fool would spend more money and wait longer for a less selection of choice. Of course I say that because my store doesn't have a lot of stock and it's often "zero in stock" on the distributor when I try to order anything coupled with barely any discount. If you have a store that gives say a 20+% discount and has a huge section of product, it's a lot easier to just buy it there even if you pay a bit more than ordering online when you factor in sales tax.

Anyways back to the topic at hand: I'm honestly not sure what I plan to do. The issue is the other two game stores are about an hour's drive while this one is around 20 minutes, and both the other stores tend to have game days during the week which makes it harder to schedule time to go down there. I told Bob he should contact Privateer but his response was basically "Why bother, what are they going to do about it" but to be honest, it's not my problem or my business. Bob's an adult and can take care of himself, I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store as well as painting him as the bad guy for taking back terrain that wasn't appreciated.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store

When it comes down to it that's the store owners prerogative. If he wants to run a hostile storefront he has every right to do so as ultimately he's the owner and it's his call. However it's also up to the patrons to decide if they will support the store or not by granting or withdrawing their support. Customers vote with their dollar, outside of that there's very little chance that anything will change how the store is run. Privateer isn't mommy or the third grade teacher who'll set things right with a phone call. There's a lot of a-hole people out there you can't change them, but at the same time you don't need to deal with them. If you're unhappy with the store try someplace else and create you own group or community.

Like with any business the tone and culture is set by the person in charge: the store owner.
They pay for the space but they pay it with what money you choose to spend at the store so you do have some power as a customer.

BUT the store owner decides what is acceptable and what is not.

If what they allow is not agreeable to you there are only a couple of options:
- try to insulate yourself from what you don't like by only interacting with those who behave "properly".
- take your time and money elsewhere, the only effective means of bringing change to a business is hitting them in the wallet.

I do not have much trouble with rude people when gaming because I have had to stick-up for my recreation time rather strongly to get it (kids-hockey-karate-stuff, busy wife, busy work).
We all should be there to have fun, if at the expense of others... NO, shutting down, right now, go find a "victim" somewhere else, my fun time is limited and important to me.
I have found some absolutely fun outstanding people to play and in multiple kinds of games so abandoning a FLGS is not to be taken lightly due to the opportunity.

Any comments on "competitive" gamers I maintain: sure, they want a challenge, fluff-fight OR bring-it-on is fun either way as long as you know what you are getting into.

I tend to like to avoid group "politicians" that feel they own a group or it is their scene: it shows an unhealthy form of entitlement and some insanity of thinking they can get people to tow the line, it will work up to a point.

Yeah, it always fun to delve into the drama of gaming, as if just wrestling with a rule-set is not challenge enough.

 stanman wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I was more miffed that the owner was okay with someone telling him to go feth himself and find another store

When it comes down to it that's the store owners prerogative. If he wants to run a hostile storefront he has every right to do so as ultimately he's the owner and it's his call. However it's also up to the patrons to decide if they will support the store or not by granting or withdrawing their support. Customers vote with their dollar, outside of that there's very little chance that anything will change how the store is run. Privateer isn't mommy or the third grade teacher who'll set things right with a phone call. There's a lot of a-hole people out there you can't change them, but at the same time you don't need to deal with them. If you're unhappy with the store try someplace else and create you own group or community.

I have actually seen a FLGS go out of business because when it opened up, the other established FLGS used that opportunity to purge all the non-customers and anti-social people. He knew if he threw them out, they would take their group to the other store.

They got rid of the horrible people and dead weight *AND* saddled the new store with a group of people who were full of bad attitudes and didn't spend money. It actually freed up his store to have better customers and people were happy they were gone.

Sometimes throwing the bad people out is 'good' for business.

1. Joe and the Store Owner are in cahoots. Joe "owns" the events and game time. Joes does little to promote the game or run events.
2. Bob shows up. Bob makes nice terrain for others to use. Bob tries to run events. Bob has passion for the game.
3. Joe and Owner make life miserable for Bob so he walks away with better things to do than deal with a couple of children.

Answer: Find out what store Bob is doing things at and start going their. He has his stuff together. Let others know Bob has his stuff together. Let Joe and Owner have their little Empire...it will soon die on the vine.

 Haight wrote:

 stanman wrote:
I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A


He's perfect for South Park's anger management: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386586/anger-management-class

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?


What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

Sounds to me like he needs to spend less time examining his friend's junk.

KellyJ wrote:
1. Joe and the Store Owner are in cahoots. Joe "owns" the events and game time. Joes does little to promote the game or run events.
2. Bob shows up. Bob makes nice terrain for others to use. Bob tries to run events. Bob has passion for the game.
3. Joe and Owner make life miserable for Bob so he walks away with better things to do than deal with a couple of children.

Answer: Find out what store Bob is doing things at and start going their. He has his stuff together. Let others know Bob has his stuff together. Let Joe and Owner have their little Empire...it will soon die on the vine.

Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

WayneTheGame wrote:


Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

You and Bob need to go to meetup.com and either find a local existing meetup for tabletop gaming and ask to make an event via their meetup, or make a new meetup.

Meetup.com is pretty awesome in my area because it gets the word out and really can support FLGS, Home gaming and clubs and such in neutral locations. It has become my go-to for finding gaming.

If you guys can find a good location, Bob has the drive to organize play and terrain. And 2 of you make a 'game'. I know many restaurants which have either back-rooms or surplus of tables and would gladly let you guys monopolize it for a few hours during low times. 1-4PM on sundays and often sunday night is super slow at many places. I game at both a Diner and a Pizza Parlor in my area via meetups. I know tabletop gaming takes larger tables and terrains, but if you willing to do the work you can get your gaming and cut the ties of the FLGS.

nkelsch wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:


Thing is I don't think Bob is doing things at other stores, that's part of the original thing. Bob had come to our store to do things because I guess it was closer to him than the other stores that have their own events going on (and may have led to the rumor that he came here because he wasn't welcome at the other stores). Joe is the "store Press Ganger" because he introduced the owner to the game, but doesn't do anything as you said, at least not official events.

You and Bob need to go to meetup.com and either find a local existing meetup for tabletop gaming and ask to make an event via their meetup, or make a new meetup.

Meetup.com is pretty awesome in my area because it gets the word out and really can support FLGS, Home gaming and clubs and such in neutral locations. It has become my go-to for finding gaming.

If you guys can find a good location, Bob has the drive to organize play and terrain. And 2 of you make a 'game'. I know many restaurants which have either back-rooms or surplus of tables and would gladly let you guys monopolize it for a few hours during low times. 1-4PM on sundays and often sunday night is super slow at many places. I game at both a Diner and a Pizza Parlor in my area via meetups. I know tabletop gaming takes larger tables and terrains, but if you willing to do the work you can get your gaming and cut the ties of the FLGS.

We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

Yes.

I have a lot of GW toys, and I'm pretty happy about that. That's where the overwhelming majority of my gaming dollars and time have gone. What a casual glance at my signature misses is that those purchases have been over a 15+year period, primarily in the first several years. It also inaccurately (and ignorantly) conflates ownership of product with the notion of being an active promoter of current product and/or business practices. Unlike Bob & Joe, I've never been a Press Ganger / Outrider / whatever. It just means that I had a big wallet that I opened to buy a lot of toys that I liked. Go ahead and guess how much I've spent on current GW product over the past 15-odd months.

Unlike you, I understand business exists to make money, and that the best approach is to continue capturing spend from existing customers. I will *never* fault GW for "milking" their players wallets dry - that's the point of the company. If players don't find value and don't want to buy something, they shouldn't. When you go to a restaurant, to you bitch at the waitstaff and sommellier for trying to upsell you on apps, drinks and wine, or dessert & coffee? Do you bitch at the car salesman for trying to upsell you on packages or options? That's their job.

Balance-wise, it's kind of laughable that you're making a stink about that. Is GW "balance" a new thing to complain about? Was it perfectly balanced, and only now a problem? Has GW ever said that perfect balance was core design and development objective? What a weak strawman to complain about.

Unlike PP, GW has always placed The Most Important Rule up front, and they very clearly define a particular gaming ethos that has no room for WAAC play:

The Most Important Rule

Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game, with many different armies, weapons and possibilities. In a game of this size and complexity there are bound to be occasions where a particular situation lies outside these rules, often when unusual models interact. At other times you may know the rule is covered but you just can't seem to find the right page. Then again you may know the rule, but the reality of exactly where your models are on the table may make it a really close call - measuring assault moves and deciding if a key model is in cover are classic examples.

All of these instances can lead to arguments, so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure that both players - not just the victor - have a good time. If a dispute does crop up then work out the answer in a gentlemanly manner. Many players simply like to roll off and let the dice decide who is right, allowing them to get straight back to blasting each other to pieces. After the game you can happily continue your discussion ofthe finer points of the rules, or agree how you will both interpret them should the same situation happen again. You could even decide to change the rules to suit you better (this is known as 'house rules').

The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.

[Jervis Johnson, Warhammer 40,000 - 5th Ed. p.2]

WayneTheGame wrote:


We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

35 miles is damn far IMHO. But that could also be through the lens of my Metro area. I used to make the 38 mile drive to the GW HQ for gaming when we had the battle bunker in Glen Burnie, and even then it was hard to justify that drive,

But I guess it all depends on where the gamers are.

38 miles is super far, especially on the East Coast, where population is very dense.

38 miles might be a trip to the store in Montana / North Dakota.

38 miles is very far even out West here in California.

I'm coming into this conversation late, but I had a similar experience.

A few years back, A new store opened in my area. Initially there was no wargaming community to speak of (40k, warmachine, etc). I worked pretty hard to help grow the community for one game: scratch building tables, making terrain, running events, etc etc.

A little over a year ago, an individual moved to the area and started frequenting the store..and proceeded to start trolling me in various social media venues related to this LGS. In an effort to try to expand the number of games played at this LGS, I started trying to demo other games that were not currently being played there. Well, the previously-mentioned individual (who was not an employee at the time), started harassing me and accusing me of devaluing the merchandise currently stocked by the LGS. I tried to explain that very few people only play one game, and that the more people play, the more money they are likely to spend overall. Well, long story short, the individual in question not only continued his harrassment, but expanded it to include my wife and friends.

When I complained to the store owner, I was told that he couldn't do anything because the individual was not an employee of the store. About a week later, he hired the guy. When the abuse continued, I complained again and was told that "I can't do anything if he's not claiming to speak on behalf of the store."

I've pretty much stopped having anything to do with that location; which is a shame, because it's pretty much the only store in town.

nkelsch wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:


We don't lack for stores in the area, there are two other solid gaming stores within 35 miles or so, it's just an hour's drive (which it is for Bob either way). Maybe it's just time to start going to those stores to check them out and see if they're worth more of my time.

35 miles is damn far IMHO. But that could also be through the lens of my Metro area. I used to make the 38 mile drive to the GW HQ for gaming when we had the battle bunker in Glen Burnie, and even then it was hard to justify that drive,

But I guess it all depends on where the gamers are.

That's pretty much it, my area already doesn't have a lot of stores and it's always been a drive, so to finally have one close by... you can see the dilemma. Actually I just checked, the other two are around 28-30 miles so I was off by a few, but still. It's about an hour's drive one way without traffic.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Seriously?

You want to go that route while you've got GW emblazoned all over your sig? A company that's pretty much made a business of milking every fan they've had, and then leaving in a lot of balance issues for players to exploit, and keep exploiting? Then they get to handwave that all away with, "Oh, you're not being gentlemanly enough?"

Yes.

I have a lot of GW toys, and I'm pretty happy about that. That's where the overwhelming majority of my gaming dollars and time have gone. What a casual glance at my signature misses is that those purchases have been over a 15+year period, primarily in the first several years. It also inaccurately (and ignorantly) conflates ownership of product with the notion of being an active promoter of current product and/or business practices. Unlike Bob & Joe, I've never been a Press Ganger / Outrider / whatever. It just means that I had a big wallet that I opened to buy a lot of toys that I liked. Go ahead and guess how much I've spent on current GW product over the past 15-odd months.

Unlike you, I understand business exists to make money, and that the best approach is to continue capturing spend from existing customers. I will *never* fault GW for "milking" their players wallets dry - that's the point of the company. If players don't find value and don't want to buy something, they shouldn't. When you go to a restaurant, to you bitch at the waitstaff and sommellier for trying to upsell you on apps, drinks and wine, or dessert & coffee? Do you bitch at the car salesman for trying to upsell you on packages or options? That's their job.

Balance-wise, it's kind of laughable that you're making a stink about that. Is GW "balance" a new thing to complain about? Was it perfectly balanced, and only now a problem? Has GW ever said that perfect balance was core design and development objective? What a weak strawman to complain about.

Unlike PP, GW has always placed The Most Important Rule up front, and they very clearly define a particular gaming ethos that has no room for WAAC play:

The Most Important Rule

Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game, with many different armies, weapons and possibilities. In a game of this size and complexity there are bound to be occasions where a particular situation lies outside these rules, often when unusual models interact. At other times you may know the rule is covered but you just can't seem to find the right page. Then again you may know the rule, but the reality of exactly where your models are on the table may make it a really close call - measuring assault moves and deciding if a key model is in cover are classic examples.

All of these instances can lead to arguments, so it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure that both players - not just the victor - have a good time. If a dispute does crop up then work out the answer in a gentlemanly manner. Many players simply like to roll off and let the dice decide who is right, allowing them to get straight back to blasting each other to pieces. After the game you can happily continue your discussion ofthe finer points of the rules, or agree how you will both interpret them should the same situation happen again. You could even decide to change the rules to suit you better (this is known as 'house rules').

The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours.

[Jervis Johnson, Warhammer 40,000 - 5th Ed. p.2]

You really have a axe to grind with Warmachine/Hoards don't you? Because I don't see how this has ANYTHING to do with the OP.

You also seem to take Warmachine' s growing popularity very personally. It's like War machine stole your girlfriend or something.

Warmachine didn't steal his girlfriend, it just stole a lot of 40k players that wouldn't blindly accept with GW's BS like he does. Well, most likely it was other competitors like X-Wing.

It's become clear that he's a GW apologist, and hell, I like 40k a great deal. Doesn't mean I can't see through it. All that BS GW spouts about sportsmanship and gentlemanlyness is just a cover for them being about to get away with doing half the work.

GW games have every bit the room for WAAC play, especially now with unbound armies, no comp tournaments, and more. They allow WAAC players because they step aside, handwave, and Jedi mind trick all the types like you that blindly accept.

No one is buying your argument John. And the only reason why we're even talking is because you're constantly jumping into threads just to rage at 40k's dwindling playerbase, when no one cares.

Which, going back to the original discussion, is the kind of mindset that can lead to these kind of disputes and drama in game stores or in local play groups. I had a group split up because one half saw the hobby world blindly pro-GW and anti-everything else as you do, without knowing it and letting their opinions be swayed by that bias. I heard these same people have the nerve to call Battletech not a miniatures game. Calling one of the original big miniature games, "not a miniatures game," because it wasn't a GW game, is a new kind of low in terms of cognitive dissonance.

Well, nowadays those guys might still play GW, but they're also playing a lot of other games they wouldn't consider miniature games. Many play Warmachine, and you know what I hear them comment? They do encounter WAAC players, but no more than before, and just like in the 40k community, or in any community, you just don't bother playing with or engaging with those WAAC players at all.

WAAC is a way of life so it is not so special to only be found in gaming.
It is just the person who wants to pull a "win" over someone with little regard for rules or manners.
They are also rather "non-sustainable" since you only need to be burned once unless you are a masochist.

So in the theme of this thread, do not reward bad behavior, I would see how long you can go playing there without buying anything.
It would give a warm feeling when asked: "When I am ready to support how you treat people".
Iam sure being kicked out would be one of the options but your heart wouldn't be in the place anyway and steps would be taken.

Yep, pretty much an echo of most people.

If the store is at fault, you have a world of online purchasing options. Most likely so hostile a store will dwindle and eventually go out of business.

You are able and are encouraged to create a private group of players in the meantime. There's plenty of online resources to do so. Post here, or in various places looking for gamers. It's actually a golden age of being able to find other local gamers, and it sounds like you would already have one.

You would have to create a play space, either at a home or elsewhere. I recommend, if you're in the states, looking around at community centers, or places with board rooms. Many such places are very open to cheaply renting the space out on a regular basis for groups of people.

I know one club in Arizona rents a big unused board/meeting room in a utilities area. I've looked into using my local community center to host a tournament when it expanded beyond what the local store could hold.

And that WAAC stuff, well it's a social world, and part of being social is choosing who you are social with and in what way.

Clearly, the only option is to nuke whatever planet this store exists on. It's the only way to be sure.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Clearly, the only option is to nuke whatever planet this store exists on. It's the only way to be sure.

I do love people with a direct approach with little or no moderation.
It just brings a smile to my face, I admire the vision and then back regrettably from the brink.
Slowly stealing members away from the store until it is a ghost-town on game nights is possibly punishment enough.
Some like their nukes , some like stealth ... it is all good.

It's all or nothing in my world!!

 Vertrucio wrote:
Warmachine didn't steal his girlfriend, it just stole a lot of 40k players that wouldn't blindly accept with GW's BS like he does. Well, most likely it was other competitors like X-Wing..

The community can make or break any game; don't matter what it is. Currently locally we have a large number of players starting war machine... But I being an old GW fan boy.. I hurts knowing my beloved game is slowly dying in my area. But I can clearly see the cause of the decline, most old timers I know are either tied up with jobs and/or family and get only a few basement games a year; Leaving the only remaining GW gamers in the area whom are very clickish and seem to drive off new players instead of welcoming them. But the local Press gangers work together as a band of brothers to run games or tournaments anywhere they can. Most of the time you have a early tournament posting with the press ganger TBD; Each takes turns and they work it out where they all get equal billing as it should work.

As for the OP; sounds like some in store politics is happening; I don't know how the press ganger system works; but I know its not a competition; its a way to support and promote the war machine game.

They don't seem like very a nice group of people. I would try to find a new store.

Been through a lot of stores myself in my travels and seen some "cliques" in my times. It's sad that you have to deal with that situation. I'd walk, or even switch games if it meant finding a new crowd. A bad 40k scene was the last straw in me dumping the game any trying new ones, settling primarily into Warmachine play.

If you're a PG, I'd say it's part of your responsibility to report what's going on as it's not conducive or healthy to the game as a whole and can reflect poorly on it (see the petty asides/ranting going on in this thread by the perception of W/H crowds). Don't get into the petty he-said, she-said, just reports the facts as you see it and move on. At the end of the day, it would probably make Joe lose his PG status, but the store owner/crowd won't care because they don't follow the spirit of the game or have official events. Let them fail at their own pace, so to speak.

If I were myself 15 years ago and had time to game in stores like I did back then, I would probably take a supreme amount of pleasure in repeatedly beating the piss out of people in the 'clique' in a game like Warmachine...

I guess part of the issue is that it doesn't involve me as Bob is an adult and they aren't harming the game really, and the last time i reported a store for doing what I thought wasn't appropriate it spiraled out of control and resulted in my not having a place to play for some 14 years.

I've told Bob he should report what goes on and how he's treated but I think his answer is just going to be screw it they don't want me there so I'll stop coming.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I guess part of the issue is that it doesn't involve me as Bob is an adult and they aren't harming the game really, and the last time i reported a store for doing what I thought wasn't appropriate it spiraled out of control and resulted in my not having a place to play for some 14 years.

I've told Bob he should report what goes on and how he's treated but I think his answer is just going to be screw it they don't want me there so I'll stop coming.

Then you've satisfied the dictates of honor by telling him and indicating at least your support and distaste for the store's behavior.

I'm assuming you don't want to stop gaming there (which is fine, despite being appalled by the behavior), so at that point i think if Bob decides to stop going, you're off the hook morally speaking (for lack of a better phrase).

Don't beat yourself up about this, and do what you can to build a less-toxic environment, but it's not your job to change the store. Dicks will be dicks.

Off the hook until the clique of mean girls-I mean gamers decide to turn on someone else.

Sining wrote:
Off the hook until the clique of mean girls-I mean gamers decide to turn on someone else.

How would that in any way be his fault though, making him "back on the hook" ? He's a press ganger. He's not Manners Batman. This is the store owner's issue, but as he's part of the problem, and likely doesn't view it as an issue, i doubt resolution will come from that vector.


In all my other posts i pretty much said "Yup, seen this a million times, this is a toxic group" and gave examples of where the toxicity was coming from. I have no doubt that they'll just find a new person to wolf pack attack once Bob is gone, but that's not going to be Wayne's fault.
It also isn't his problem to fix, either. I personally would find a new store / group / etc., but that's me.



Not trying to be combative, but in counter point to one part of your post what exactly is he supposed to do about it ?

Because i agree with the other part of your post FWIW ; it will happen again. If anything, the group will be emboldened by the fact that their wolfpack, groupthink, Bro-circling the wagons chased off the interloper they didn't like (and practically with store sanction!). So they'll keep doing it. In fact, i'll bet this progresses to an inter-store social hierarchy, where the lowest couple guys or gals on the perceived totem pole will get more and more not-so-good natured gak ; and they'll still be higher (to the clique) then the occasional visitors and randoms that come, who will be received with lukewarmness, and the first moment they do something the group doesn't like, start the behind the back gak-talking machine and gaming avoidance.

Man.. i'm going to be in central / southern florida for a week in May. I'm super tempted to swing by this store on warmachine night, not for any other reason but i'd love to observe the clique in its natural habitat and see how correct my assumptions (posted and unposted) are.

--------------------

Wayne ; curious question or you. THis owner. Is he the game store owner type that runs his business like a club house for his friends and the guys he likes (sounds like it), or on the whole is he a sound businessman first, gamer second ? I'd be willing the clubhouse type. Just curious as to how spot on some of my internal assumptions are as the picture gets painted more and more.

Not sure. he seems to want a business but I've never met a game store owner that had real business sense. Given how little he seems to know I'm guessing you're right. He's very new to the game store part.

I should have mentioned that this technically Is the second time. Two guys (same guy who started the Bob has been kicked out of every store stuff and the guy who told him to f off) also technically made someone else leave because they'd joke about his sister all the time (including hyping a warmachine game between the two of them on our group as the "Battle for X's Sister" and defended it by saying they only kept it up because they knew it got to him. They even did it after he stopped going to the shop. So these two are real life trolls basically. The scary part is they were friends with the guy outside the shop!

I'd say leave the store and find another group.

This group has ring-leaders who are determined to only do things their way; furthermore they appear to have a very brash and unwelcoming attitude. Because they are already established and because the store owner isn't setting the tone chances are you won't have a hope unless you can spend months convincing all the regulars slowly - and to be honest its probably better to just cut and go play at a store that has a more welcoming group in general.

Any social group is going to get leaders - any group is going to get some form of clique - some strong some weak; sometimes its even just who is around and majority joins as to how the social structure pans out.

The store owner should be in charge and leading; but it sounds like he's new to the idea of being a social manager not just a store owner - so he's siding with the popular group because that's supporting the majority of his business.



Bob might have done bad things in the past - he might have walked in too bossy - he might just have been an innocent who got the wrong day to turn up and earned the enmity of the social leaders. They set the tone toward him and others played along (some likely didn't even realise what they were doing).
However when it shifts form snide comments to actual damage to things he's given (on loan or donation) to the club then its a very bad sign. A club with no respect of the groups property and of property of individuals is a group with problems.



You can fight it out or just go have actual fun at another store. I'd say the latter is a LOT quicker and easier. If you can't and if its your only option - eh - you've got a long slog ahead.

I'm sorry but seems to me the store owner, Joe, and the others are being donkey caves. I don't blame Bob for taking his terrain that was being abused back. The others clearly didn't appreciate it.

On another note I was VERY sad when my local FLGS closed. The owner and people were VERY friendly and helpful. I had been out of MTG since Scourge. They welcomed me helped me get caught up with the rules and changes. Some even gave me cards to help me get more current. The owner was equally helpful. He and his family treated everyone equally well and tried to offer the best prices they could. If you could get something for quite a bit cheaper somewhere they gladly told you where. It was the store owner who took extra time out of his busy schedule to introduce me to 40k when I expressed interest. He told me the advantages and disadvantages of all the different armies as well as real money costs of the armies and generally helped figure what I wanted to play for MONTHS before I spent a dime on the game. Unfortunately in a small town in Eastern Montana it is hard to keep a place like this open. Especially when you work 40 hours a week running delivery for UPS and then running the store on the side. People getting their kids their toys for comparable prices elsewhere, and treating the store like a free daycare center doesn't help either. The reason the owner opened the store in the first place wasn't to make a lot of money. It was to give kids a place to go to keep out of trouble in a town that literally has NOTHING for younger people to do or older people unless you like bars and casinos. I don't blame the guy for closing the doors he wanted to spend more time with his family and be able to take them places other than the game store, which he didn't have the time to do while the doors were open. Sorry about the rant. I just feel like too often all FLGS are lumped together and looked down on as "guilt tripping you into buying things" as others have said, and I never felt that way at all about my FLGS. Heck Things cost me MORE now than they did before.

In the entire history of the store the cops were only called twice and only one person was ever banned. The guy who was banned was banned for pulling a knife on an opponent in a game of 40k and the police called. The second time the police were called was when an undercover cop came in trying to sell drugs because some donkey caves didn't like the "Store for nerds and losers" and reported to the police that drugs were being sold out of it.

You may want to speak to "Joe" and ask him what exactly he thinks he's doing, except being a complete jerk.
At my local GW, there is a core of established gamers about 40 strong (not all of who turn up regularly, but often enough to be in the circle).
The difference is we don't treat new people like dirt. I guess it may be to do with it being established and a proper wargaming store run by a professional company, and none of us have ties to its creation.

 Overread wrote:
I'd say leave the store and find another group.

This group has ring-leaders who are determined to only do things their way; furthermore they appear to have a very brash and unwelcoming attitude. Because they are already established and because the store owner isn't setting the tone chances are you won't have a hope unless you can spend months convincing all the regulars slowly - and to be honest its probably better to just cut and go play at a store that has a more welcoming group in general.

Any social group is going to get leaders - any group is going to get some form of clique - some strong some weak; sometimes its even just who is around and majority joins as to how the social structure pans out.

The store owner should be in charge and leading; but it sounds like he's new to the idea of being a social manager not just a store owner - so he's siding with the popular group because that's supporting the majority of his business.



Bob might have done bad things in the past - he might have walked in too bossy - he might just have been an innocent who got the wrong day to turn up and earned the enmity of the social leaders. They set the tone toward him and others played along (some likely didn't even realise what they were doing).
However when it shifts form snide comments to actual damage to things he's given (on loan or donation) to the club then its a very bad sign. A club with no respect of the groups property and of property of individuals is a group with problems.



You can fight it out or just go have actual fun at another store. I'd say the latter is a LOT quicker and easier. If you can't and if its your only option - eh - you've got a long slog ahead.

Have an exalt. Great post, and excellent, grounded synopsis of the situation. Couldn't agree more with this down to earth and realistic take on the scenario.

It's fair to point out that some people might have not realized that they were joining in with the wolf pack. I have found that's often true. That at the end of they day, when you ask some pointed questions, they don't really dislike the proverbial "BoB", never seen proverbial "Bob" do anything bad, but just sorta went along with the groupthink quasi-unwittingly.



I think another thing too, is that if someone has directly witness Bob peeing in their wheaties, yeah, not problem, genuinely dislike the guy. But if its all based on high-school behind the back talking, or the vast majority of it, then yeah.... i wish there was a "head shaking side to side.... "Nope."" orc-smiley.

 Haight wrote:


It's fair to point out that some people might have not realized that they were joining in with the wolf pack. I have found that's often true. That at the end of they day, when you ask some pointed questions, they don't really dislike the proverbial "BoB", never seen proverbial "Bob" do anything bad, but just sorta went along with the groupthink quasi-unwittingly.

This is a very good and very key point as well. If key people in the community behave a certain way and there is no "push back" then many people assume that is the right way to behave and do likewise. As such its very easy for a group to "gang up" upon another person without all the individuals within the group being fully aware that they are even doing that. Some might consider some of the comments a long running joke that they are taking part in because they want to "best part of the group".

Sometimes its even just the groups desire to have a blame-target. Something/someone that takes the blame for things. It's generally unhealthy to a community when this happens because it quickly gets engrained and even if the blame target leaves the attitude won't; the group simply starts to look for someone or something else (one could argue that in the gaming world things like EA and Games Workshop and to a partial extent Kickstarter (when it goes wrong) have become blame targets - although that's getting somewhat off-topic).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

Not true. I've been to many stores which have great perks.

My hometown FLGS has a rewards program. On your 7th purchase you get 10% of the price of your previous 6 purchases as a gift card. They also do 10% off all gaming purchases on the designated weekday for that game, so you get 10% off on all miniatures on miniature game day. They also do 10% off special orders for anything not in stock. Monthly 40k tournament has a $10 entry fee and usually $150-200 in prize money for the top 3 placings depending on how many show up.

Another store has the entry fee for their monthly tournaments set up as either a flat $10 entry fee or a $20 purchase in the store.

Of course there are many stores which also do nothing to support the community. Weeks or months for special orders to even get placed, carries the most random stuff nobody buys, and no discounts or sales(unless they've been there for decades)

What planet am I on? Where is this place where all the Warmachine players are WAAC jerks, all the 40K players are either superfluff gentlemen who never dispute anything or, conversely, cheesy netlisting basement dwellers who rules-lawyer everything into oblivion, and all the stores in the city are basically gangs fighting over territory and trying to guilt people into buying things from them?

I have literally, literally never encountered any of these things in my 17 years of miniatures gaming in two different cities at five different stores. On the internet? Sure. But IRL? Literally never.


EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

I know you're probably just catching back up with the thread RatBot, but we worked hard to get away from the WM vs. 40k and all its undertones in this thread. Can we keep from nosediving back into it ?

Reason being is 1) its never as binary as people make it (there are great people and jerks on both sides), and 2) is a polarizing argument as unless we force ourselves to be hyper objective, we gravitate towards our own experience (anecdote) and our own bias (if we play one game but not the other). If you see my sig you might be tempted to think i'm just a GW shill. I'm not. Check my posts out in this thread. I think WM/H is one of the better / best games on the market, and i used to work for PP.


Fact is that regardless of game, people engage in pack mentality bs all the time, even in gamestores. I've just been really unlucky that until i found my current home, i had the displeasure to see a couple of the regions worst examples.

We are all human and have our own behaviors.
Good thing is, as customers we can exert some influence on a store owner since they want our money.
The other clique behavior in the store by other customers, all you can do is try not to give them any power.
You do not have to listen to the more vocal types, or take them up on being a jerk.
Deal with people on a one on one basis and most times it is good.
I find it terribly amusing when someone tries to tell me what I am to do.
NO, I will do what I feel appropriate, I will support people who mean well and do their best.
Those with a sense of entitlement need to understand they are owed nothing and be happy for what little they have even then.
Anything done as a labor of love is given freely, people looking for their direct payback can take a hike.

 RatBot wrote:
What planet am I on? Where is this place where all the Warmachine players are WAAC jerks, all the 40K players are either superfluff gentlemen who never dispute anything or, conversely, cheesy netlisting basement dwellers who rules-lawyer everything into oblivion, and all the stores in the city are basically gangs fighting over territory and trying to guilt people into buying things from them?

I have literally, literally never encountered any of these things in my 17 years of miniatures gaming in two different cities at five different stores. On the internet? Sure. But IRL? Literally never.


EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

Thank you.

Like in life its a spectrum rather than just black or white.

But iv seen examples IRL of everything in the OP so its like it doesn't exist.

Oh, I certainly wasn't trying to churn up the old GW v PP thing, which is why I tried to use the unkind stereotypes I hear bandied about for each game (The WAAC Warmachine player and the netlisting rules lawyer 40K player). I just find a lot of this hard to swallow and I literally wonder where these game stores-cum-street gangs who act like shady drug dealers and mafia extortionists are.


EDIT: all though I did just remember I saw the owner of the biggest FLGS make a passive-aggressive comment in our Warmachine facebook group when someone posted a miniature market deal, but that's about it. Other than that, it seems that he has a pretty good relationship with the event organizers for all the games at the store (WMH, 40K, and various card and board games), and the community in general.


But back on to the original topic: It definitely sounds like there needs to be a civil, mature conversation between at the very least the PGs and the owner, and perhaps some of the players as well.


EDIT EDIT: And certainly there's donkey-caves in all games, and really cool chill people and all games, and gakky stores, and cliques, but there's some really bizarre, sweeping generalizations going on around here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also think that a store that is so unwelcoming to new people might be eventually become a self-correcting problem, in that such a store is probably not going to be able to exist for too long, but that may just be me being overly optimistic (or pessimistic, I suppose. Depends on how you look at it).

 RatBot wrote:

EDIT: Hell, last month I saw the employee of one store playing 40K at another store with some other people playing 40K and some other people playing Warmachine and some other people playing some card game and everyone was having fun and no one was arguing or being a dick to anyone or anything.

Pics or it didn't happen.