I would like to discuss various aspects of Dakka's Own Kickstarter coming up, but the mods have clearly limited what is to be discussed in the Maelstrom's Edge (or MEdge as we trendsetters call it) thread. Since no one else has created this thread yet, and since I haven't been baned too badly, I'm stepping up.
Let's talk about the miniatures. They are usually the most important part of a miniatures game. How do the MEdge minis stack up?
The Karist faction, pictured above, is the faction of cool armor and, uh, charming monsters. Personally, I quite enjoy the look of this faction, but this is the thread for criticism. (Please post positive comments in the official thread to keep up the positive energy vibes.)
The troopers have the arms, legs and pauldrons of the old Warzone Bauhaus minis, but with awesome 2010-era videogame heads instead of pickelhaubes. I'm sold.
The Tempest Elites are both incredibly menacing in design, and anatomically troubling. The biggest units have the smallest helmeted heads. There's no way a human (Epirian) head could fit into one of the trooper helmets, and those are more human head-shaped than the Tempest's helmets. There is also the issue with their funky wrists holding up Cable-style weapons. What do you think, fellow Dakka peons?
The minnows take me back to my childhood and the dawn of practical effects in movies. I like them because they look like non-denominational demons for 40k or something the Ghostbusters would catch on their lunch breaks. However, they certainly don't look like biological entities, especially not ones that could fly under their own power to terrorize the innocent, and this is going to cost them sales. Thoughts?
Here we have the Epirians. This army is the drone army full of drones, where some of the drones look like animatronics that escaped an amusement park. Or are those humans? Just as long as they don't pull a Five Nights at Freddy's and jump-scare m--
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!
Judgedoug posted a picture of a Technolog mini that captured the essence, the very (transferrable?) soul of an Epirian Contractor, in the other thread, but I'm not trawling back to find it. To sum up:
Big head
too much lead
Shoulders? Jeez.
pads on knees
blocky caps
buttless chaps
dress-up day, work or play
What else do I have to say?
The drones are amazing and I am physically incapable of saying anything bad about them, except that they are too expensive. They need to be cheaper so I can buy more.
Now, let's talk about the art:
This is a nice piece right here, but it definitely feels more 'Mantic' in quality than GW or AT-43. The composition, palette and blurring effect leave a lot of space lacking in awesome. It's a nice first piece, but I think it should be interior art rather than, say, the front of the big box itself. Now, I am not against dark colors or foggy paintings--Bob Eggleton is one of my favorites--but the lower half of the painting gives my eye no joy, and the upper middle looks cramped. Would I buy a book full of this kind of art by the painter? Yes, but I wouldn't pay full price.
This is an inspiring piece that really feels like old Warzone art in spirit. Unfortunately, by today's standards, it feels a bit sparse or clean. Still, in a small interior space, this painting would shine.
A landscape that has a very Martiniere quality to my eye. It looks a lot like someone photoshooped some photos of LA and then added the Nexus from Generations. Yet, somehow, it works for me. Quite evocative.
The Books:
I have not read the books, but I would love to read some reviews of them in this thread. Please hide all spoilers, because I want to read them as soon as they are available in paperback.
The Rules:
The rules seem to be the one thing safe to discuss in the official thread, but if you want to harsh on them, here is the place for it.
Kickstarter Stragegy:
How and why will Dakka's Spiral Arm Studios make a million bucks off of us?
Automatically Appended Next Post: There has also been a whiff of accusation about the inspiration for Maelstrom's Edge that cannot safely be discussed in the original thread.
Scuzzy pointed out that the name, and possibly some of the thematic elements, of MEdge sound very similar to his own game, Vor: the Maelstrom. I am not familiar with that universe at all, so I can't really speak to the accuracy of his claims, but feel like they should be addressed. If you know much about Vor: TheM, please share your thoughts on the matter. Let's either validate the comparison or put a rightful end to it.
Here is a picture of some Vor minis I found. I don't see many similarities right off...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The minnows take me back to my childhood and the dawn of practical effects in movies. I like them because they look like non-denominational demons for 40k or something the Ghostbusters would catch on their lunch breaks. However, they certainly don't look like biological entities, especially not ones that could fly under their own power to terrorize the innocent, and this is going to cost them sales. Thoughts?
They look exactly like monsters that would be thrown from off-camera at underpaid/undertalented Italian teenagers in a Mario Bava film circa 1979. Which means I love them. But for all the reasons I don't think the designers intended.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Judgedoug posted a picture of a Technolog mini that captured the essence, the very (transferrable?) soul of an Epirian Contractor, in the other thread, but I'm not trawling back to find it.
Since the Epirians appear to by physically larger than the powered armor gents, one must assume that either the Epirians are a foam rubber suit that is worn by another, normal-sized entity. Or that the Karists are small and slender and the Epirians of the future are uplifted children, retaining the same rough head-to-body ratio as a toddler.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The drones are amazing and I am physically incapable of saying anything bad about them, except that they are too expensive. They need to be cheaper so I can buy more.
On this I agree; I've always loved the Battletech / Mechwarrior 4 Vulture
and I'm quite thrilled to see it's torso flying around or crawling along on spider legs. (Though I'd prefer DARPA style Big Dog legs)
But seriously, I want a giant pile of these.
Thanks for making a dedicated thread, Bob! And as I posted in the N&R thread, originally I may have been duplicating up things with another moderator, since so many of us were checking that thread, and I'm sincerely sorry about that. You can certainly say anything you like there, too, although I think having a thread dedicated to discussing model aesthetics is a good idea!
I'm going to copy over some images of the Epirians since I've been leaning towards them myself now
I think definitely the contractors are the weakest of that range (which makes sense, since apparently they were also the first to be produced and there is a learning curve to all of this!). However, I think they look worlds better without metallic shoulder pads, so something more like the above pic is definitely how I will be painting them.
I thought these comparison pictures with some other model ranges were helpful, too:
Your post is certainly welcome and acceptable, and thanks for opening with some compliments at least I feel it prudent to ensure the scale reference pictures are also in place to keep comments on proportions in context:
The Tempest Elites are both incredibly menacing in design, and anatomically troubling. The biggest units have the smallest helmeted heads. There's no way a human (Epirian) head could fit into one of the trooper helmets, and those are more human head-shaped than the Tempest's helmets. There is also the issue with their funky wrists holding up Cable-style weapons. What do you think, fellow Dakka peons?
The minnows take me back to my childhood and the dawn of practical effects in movies. I like them because they look like non-denominational demons for 40k or something the Ghostbusters would catch on their lunch breaks. However, they certainly don't look like biological entities, especially not ones that could fly under their own power to terrorize the innocent, and this is going to cost them sales. Thoughts?
To clarify a touch, the Karist helmets are masks, so dont need quite the same level of space as full on helmets. Heroic scale always draws close to crazy bobble-headed-ness so maintaining 100% consistency across the range would lead to some odd looking models, instead we go as close as we can (plus different planets, different sized people, etc). The karists are using cybel weapons that are usually killing them slowly too!
The minnows look best from above (on the tabletop) and I look forward to sharing those images too They are the most alien of all creatures in our universe and are barely biological by standard classes. Their core is solid, but everything else is a form of gel which they can manipulate at will to take whatever form the situation requires. They have full gravitic control and are the inspiration for a lot of Karist technologies so the wings are more down to the state of the minnow's adaptive capacity than actually being needed for flight. The novels are full of info on the angels for more details. One of the huge angels in the novel is described as being a writhing mass of tentacles, yet is practically floating across the desert.
I'm not a big fan of the contractors myself close up, but holding the sprues I can honestly say that they look far better in person than the photographs would indicate.
I think sometimes we forget just how minute the detail on 28mm is to the naked eye from a metre plus away.
So far, the minnow is my favorite. I love the heaviness of the design for a flying creature, indicating (to me at least) that it is actually swimming rather than flying -- maybe on the currents of transdimensional aether? These guys are definitely fauna from some kind of nightmare psychic ocean.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: To sum up:
Big head
too much lead
Shoulders? Jeez.
pads on knees
blocky caps
buttless chaps
dress-up day
work or play
What else do I have to say?
I think my US Marine buddy sums up the Epirians rather well
"I'm tired of sci fi guns. Why can't rifles be designed like, you know, rifles?
Also anything other than armor across the torso back and sides is unnecessary in modern warfare. Tired of seeing shoulder pads and what not.
No one aims at your shoulder or your leg or arm. They aim center mass."
Which is the same way I feel about ridiculous shoulder armor. WHY.
Thanks for making this thread! It doesn't really feel right being mean about the minis created by the ones who create the website I love so much on their own thread...
Honestly the only models I like are the Karist troopers. Sure their heads are a little small but the armoured look is really nice and I think with a few tweaks the weird hand placement could be fixed. Their fat bat friends however are awful. I can't envision them being able to fly at all with those massive bodies and they just look a little cartoony for my tastes.
The only thing I don't like about the Epiran troops is their massive shoulders. Granted I am a person of a very slim build but I thought the general rule for anatomy was that there should be space for one head between the end of your shoulder to your actual head? This looks more like a head and a half's width and the shoulder pads certainly don't help this look.
The drones look like they would fit really well into a present-day parallel Earth scenario but look far too low-tech for the Maelstrom universe. Now the bots shown in the art do look good as they have chunkier limbs and a few more sleek, rounded parts. Shame that aesthetic didn't pass off onto the actual models.
Another thing that bothers me is the inconsistency with bases. Round for the infantry, hexagon for the flying stuff and none for the drones? It just makes everything very jumbled looking. Still, it's not as bad as the Infinity bases with those add-on bits that they have on some of the bigger models.
Regarding the art I quite like it. While I am not a big fan of the heavily photoshopped stuff normally. It does seem to match with the setting from what I can gather from it. As the game progresses however, I would like to see more pencil and paintbrush art. It just looks far more edgy and portrays war and violence far more effectively.
I noticed that GW used a computer created piece of art for their Skitarii codex and I personally thought it was awful. Everything seemed too washed out and it looked like a bad poster for an old video game.
Anyway, while I do like aspects of this game (model wise that is), I don't think I will be joining in on the kickstarter as I think they still have a long way to go in perfecting the models. Of course I wish the team the best of luck. The more choice in games we have the better!
"I'm tired of sci fi guns. Why can't rifles be designed like, you know, rifles?
That design choice is because when you are playing with models 1" tall and looking at them from 4 feet away across a table, it is nice to be able to see what type of weapons they are holding without going in for a close look every time. If we were making models that were not designed to be gaming pieces we'd have made a different design choice, but we definitely have the best balance it is possible to get - smaller than GW's giant weapons but larger than some of the spindly breakable things that you see on many true-scale models.
legoburner wrote: Your post is certainly welcome and acceptable, and thanks for opening with some compliments at least
Don't get me wrong; I am pledging hard for your game. I'm more excited for it than any other release in the last decade. There isn't a single mini I'd kick off the modelling table. I need those drones so bad, I'll give ya a sack o' cheeseburgers, man.
However, there were definitely issues with the official thread being heavily moderated and not feeling like a safe space for some members to voice their opinions.
I feel it prudent to ensure the scale reference pictures are also in place to keep comments on proportions in context:
The Tempest Elites are both incredibly menacing in design, and anatomically troubling. The biggest units have the smallest helmeted heads. There's no way a human (Epirian) head could fit into one of the trooper helmets, and those are more human head-shaped than the Tempest's helmets. There is also the issue with their funky wrists holding up Cable-style weapons. What do you think, fellow Dakka peons?
The minnows take me back to my childhood and the dawn of practical effects in movies. I like them because they look like non-denominational demons for 40k or something the Ghostbusters would catch on their lunch breaks. However, they certainly don't look like biological entities, especially not ones that could fly under their own power to terrorize the innocent, and this is going to cost them sales. Thoughts?
To clarify a touch, the Karist helmets are masks, so dont need quite the same level of space as full on helmets. Heroic scale always draws close to crazy bobble-headed-ness so maintaining 100% consistency across the range would lead to some odd looking models, instead we go as close as we can (plus different planets, different sized people, etc). The karists are using cybel weapons that are usually killing them slowly too!
The miniatures market is just in a difficult place right now, torn between 28mm, 32mm, 28mm Heroic, and "tru scale" 28mm. No matter which set of proportions you use, someone won't be happy. That said, the Epirian Contractors are easily the weakest minis in your herd, and the hyenas are hungry.
The minnows look best from above (on the tabletop) and I look forward to sharing those images too They are the most alien of all creatures in our universe and are barely biological by standard classes. Their core is solid, but everything else is a form of gel which they can manipulate at will to take whatever form the situation requires. They have full gravitic control and are the inspiration for a lot of Karist technologies so the wings are more down to the state of the minnow's adaptive capacity than actually being needed for flight. The novels are full of info on the angels for more details. One of the huge angels in the novel is described as being a writhing mass of tentacles, yet is practically floating across the desert.
I love all of that. Can't wait to read the novels. Unfortunately, without that knowledge of your background, the minis do not really convey all of that information on their own. They seem to be a somewhat love-them-or-hate-them design. The monopose nature of their sprues will also limit their usefulness for conversions. Still, nonhumanoid aliens in hard plastic are a rare and valuable commodity.
My main problem with the contractors is the posing. Take away the armour and the blocky cap and you're still stuck with models that have very rigid poses, with awkward arms and blocky fists.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The minnows take me back to my childhood and the dawn of practical effects in movies. I like them because they look like non-denominational demons for 40k or something the Ghostbusters would catch on their lunch breaks. However, they certainly don't look like biological entities, especially not ones that could fly under their own power to terrorize the innocent, and this is going to cost them sales. Thoughts?
They look exactly like monsters that would be thrown from off-camera at underpaid/undertalented Italian teenagers in a Mario Bava film circa 1979. Which means I love them. But for all the reasons I don't think the designers intended.
Yes! That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about! Although I might have thrown in some Roger Corman and bikinis.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Judgedoug posted a picture of a Technolog mini that captured the essence, the very (transferrable?) soul of an Epirian Contractor, in the other thread, but I'm not trawling back to find it.
Since the Epirians appear to by physically larger than the powered armor gents, one must assume that either the Epirians are a foam rubber suit that is worn by another, normal-sized entity. Or that the Karists are small and slender and the Epirians of the future are uplifted children, retaining the same rough head-to-body ratio as a toddler.
It's a scale thing as Legoburner described. I would have to see them in real life to know how I feel about them. If worse comes to worst, I can swap out their heads with WGF plastics.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The drones are amazing and I am physically incapable of saying anything bad about them, except that they are too expensive. They need to be cheaper so I can buy more.
On this I agree; I've always loved the Battletech / Mechwarrior 4 Vulture
and I'm quite thrilled to see it's torso flying around or crawling along on spider legs. (Though I'd prefer DARPA style Big Dog legs)
But seriously, I want a giant pile of these.
Yeah, the drones and robots are the superstars of this line. I can't believe it took somebody this long to release a sprue for plastic drones.
"I'm tired of sci fi guns. Why can't rifles be designed like, you know, rifles?
That design choice is because when you are playing with models 1" tall and looking at them from 4 feet away across a table, it is nice to be able to see what type of weapons they are holding without going in for a close look every time. If we were making models that were not designed to be gaming pieces we'd have made a different design choice, but we definitely have the best balance it is possible to get - smaller than GW's giant weapons but larger than some of the spindly breakable things that you see on many true-scale models.
There have been any number of manufacturers that have pulled off near-truescale weapons that don't require getting close nor are easily breakable.
Spoiler:
I could perhaps see the reasoning for guns that are as wide as they are tall if there was an array of them, but from what I see, there's one rifle type and one rifle w/ underslung grenade launcher type on the Epirian sprue?
Manchu wrote: So far, the minnow is my favorite. I love the heaviness of the design for a flying creature, indicating (to me at least) that it is actually swimming rather than flying -- maybe on the currents of transdimensional aether? These guys are definitely fauna from some kind of nightmare psychic ocean.
I totally get that vibe, too. It sounds like the background will fit in with that, so they are a successful representation. However, there are a lot of people who dislike the minnows, and I can also completely see why. Like campy old Adam West Batman, you either go with it or you hate it.
judgedoug wrote: There have been any number of manufacturers that have pulled off near-truescale weapons that don't require getting close nor are easily breakable.
Indeed. The Dreamforge guns are a great example of this.
I think we might have to agree to disagree on that one judgedoug - even on screen I did not immediately notice that the second row of your image there has three different types of gun, let alone from across the table.
If you make some more interesting guns with grenade launchers, scopes, combi-weapons, and everything else in a typical sci-fi game in that size you'll run into the size issue very very quickly.
Finally, those guns have much more length - make them all the size of that MP40 relative to the body like a modern AR and you'll also have more trouble identifying them across a 4 foot distance.
Regarding the art I quite like it. While I am not a big fan of the heavily photoshopped stuff normally. It does seem to match with the setting from what I can gather from it. As the game progresses however, I would like to see more pencil and paintbrush art. It just looks far more edgy and portrays war and violence far more effectively.
I noticed that GW used a computer created piece of art for their Skitarii codex and I personally thought it was awful. Everything seemed too washed out and it looked like a bad poster for an old video game.
You captured what makes the art seem weak. It does seem too washed out, whereas something that was drawn and then painted by hand would have more room for the artist to emphasize certain areas or add visual weight and technique to enhance the picture.
I think my US Marine buddy sums up the Epirians rather well
"I'm tired of sci fi guns. Why can't rifles be designed like, you know, rifles?
Also anything other than armor across the torso back and sides is unnecessary in modern warfare. Tired of seeing shoulder pads and what not.
No one aims at your shoulder or your leg or arm. They aim center mass."
Which is the same way I feel about ridiculous shoulder armor. WHY.
So then the Defiance Games UAMC were perfect for you.
I'm not knocking them. The UAMC are very underrated in my view. They remind me a lot of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual in their design choices; small rifles, no shoulder pads, knee and shin guards so they can take cover and move comfortably, and a bulky helmet presumably full of sophisticated hardware.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You captured what makes the art seem weak. It does seem too washed out, whereas something that was drawn and then painted by hand would have more room for the artist to emphasize certain areas or add visual weight and technique to enhance the picture.
Your screen gamma and contrast has a much bigger effect on this than anything else - you dont have pure black on your monitor unless you have an amazing OLED display and everything configured correctly, so images are always going to look washed out on a screen compared to print. We'll have some printed images at Salute to show (including lots of exclusives), but until you see things printed in proper CMYK it is unfair to judge how washed out something is by what's on a screen... look at this washed out image:
Spoiler:
The main battle image is designed to be zoomed in, but I chose to share the unfiltered, zoomed out version to aid in clarity of the content rather than pure artistic style. Check out the box cover image when the kickstarter launches on Friday to see how it looks cropped and surrounded by the appropriate filters and masking
Large spaces are also used for logos, book cover names, subtitles, etc. If you see a big gap you can guess what we intend to use the image for!
Manchu wrote: So far, the minnow is my favorite. I love the heaviness of the design for a flying creature, indicating (to me at least) that it is actually swimming rather than flying -- maybe on the currents of transdimensional aether? These guys are definitely fauna from some kind of nightmare psychic ocean.
I totally get that vibe, too. It sounds like the background will fit in with that, so they are a successful representation. However, there are a lot of people who dislike the minnows, and I can also completely see why. Like campy old Adam West Batman, you either go with it or you hate it.
Yeah, like I like a harder flavor of sci-fi, and flying Piranha IV: In Space batfish are firmly fantasy space opera.
I mean, I'll probably get some because they're so weird.
So then the Defiance Games UAMC were perfect for you.
I'm not knocking them. The UAMC are very underrated in my view. They remind me a lot of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual in their design choices; small rifles, no shoulder pads, knee and shin guards so they can take cover and move comfortably, and a bulky helmet presumably full of sophisticated hardware.
The biggest problem with them was mushy leg detail and Tony Reidy; as they REALLY could have shone as a product line if a support set was released. I do have a box of them but a second box with shoulder-firing AT-4 or Javelin style weaponry, mortars, and MMGs would have made them perfect.
So then the Defiance Games UAMC were perfect for you.
I'm not knocking them. The UAMC are very underrated in my view. They remind me a lot of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual in their design choices; small rifles, no shoulder pads, knee and shin guards so they can take cover and move comfortably, and a bulky helmet presumably full of sophisticated hardware.
The biggest problem with them was mushy leg detail and Tara Reid; as they REALLY could have shone as a product line if a support set was released. I do have a box of them but a second box with shoulder-firing AT-4 or Javelin style weaponry, mortars, and MMGs would have made them perfect.
I have half a box left that I plan to use for conversions with arms and weapons from WGF's WW2 American and Russian sets. They seem like they would work well to add more weapons and posed to the kit, but then the sleeves wouldn't be rolled up.
The perils of wrist angles was covered by Judgedoug in the N&R thread but I'd like to bring up something similar:
Why is every 3rd contractor ready to play rock paper scissors at a moment's notice but can only apparently choose rock as per corporate policy? I realize a few other modern companies do something similar (like Infinity's RAGEfist!) but they're also criticized for doing it. It feels like a leftover from the 1990's and 2nd edition space marines with the little arm sprues where you always had that one hand that was either balled up into a fist or you tacked on a tiny combat knife to just put something/anything there. Is there any way that hand can be opened up or alternate hands? It contributes to the retro sculpting feel of these human models (which isn't the case with the other faction's humanoids) and I'm not sure if that style was by design, necessity, or accident.
The draw angle in plastics requires that you have each element be possible to create in a 2 part mould. Having an open hand in plastic requires the interior detail of the hand to be flush or close to flush which obviously looks pretty rubbish. If you can do a top/bottom mould then you can get it to work by having flat edges to the hand, but then the arm cant have much of a bend or the bicep area will need to be flat.
Models can get around that by having very simplistic arms (like space marines do with nothing notable above the elbow).
Fists can be fudged in to working by leaving the top and bottom of the fist flat, and allowing pooled washes/paint to create the effect of a closed hand instead of blunt hand.
The other pose that works sometimes is a finger pointing, but it is dependent on detail on the arm and is more restrictive in its use on multipose models.
We are past this point now and can do sliding cores which would let us get the best of both worlds, but these are our earlier miniatures before we learned such magic.
You'll note the karists have the exact same posed arm (balled fist)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You captured what makes the art seem weak. It does seem too washed out, whereas something that was drawn and then painted by hand would have more room for the artist to emphasize certain areas or add visual weight and technique to enhance the picture.
Your screen gamma and contrast has a much bigger effect on this than anything else - you dont have pure black on your monitor unless you have an amazing OLED display and everything configured correctly, so images are always going to look washed out on a screen compared to print.
This is 100% true and is a huge problem when it comes to any media in digital and physical form.
I'm the IT Director at a national photo lab. We have a department dedicated solely to color management. To give someone an idea how this works:
- The monitor must be calibrated at least twice per week, in total darkness, using digital pucks (they hang from the monitor, onto the screen, and read in the color values of colored rectangles that are displayed on the screen).This creates a monitor profile, which your OS applies to anything displayed, so that it will transform the colors of an image to a color space on-screen to what is displayable.
- The physical printer - whether laser-exposed photographic paper developed chemically or giclee-printed ink, must be calibrated several times per week. Printing a control image, which is usually several hundred small squares of varying colors, which is then painstakingly read by a piece of hardware into a piece of software which will then give you a profile for that _printer_, ie, the color range that the printer is capable of doing. Colorimeters and densitometers, basically (check out the wide range of stuff from Xrite just for this purpose - https://www.xrite.com/color-measurement-products) To make it more complicated, some printers require multiple profiles - for example, Noritsu R2R-1100's - which are like half a million bucks - will print a control strip, which is then processed chemically, then read back into the printer, and then you print a color gamut test, which you process chemically, and read that to create the printer profile. And guess what, the chemistry can change because of usage and replacement - as in, old Stabilizer chemicals drained and fresh chemicals added - so recalibration time.
- You can combine all of the printer profiles available into one homegenized profile which will be a representation of what the entire production facility can produce.
- each individual printer profile is used by the printer, however, as that will adjust sometimes daily, so the printer knows that a 232.67.88 color coming into the printer might need to drift to 233.66.88 because of a recent chemistry change!
So now you have your sweet monitor, and Windows is applying the monitor profile. You open your image in whatever, and then you apply a soft-proofing Lab or Printer profile to the image- and voila - you have a near-as-physically-possible representation, on your monitor, of what the final physical print will look like.
It is a very time consuming and expensive process but it is the only way that a device that adds light (a monitor) can accurately represent a device that adds darkness (a printer).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: It feels like a leftover from the 1990's and 2nd edition space marines with the little arm sprues where you always had that one hand that was either balled up into a fist or you tacked on a tiny combat knife to just put something/anything there.
I think each sprue has enough arms to do carrying rifle poses.
We are past this point now and can do sliding cores which would let us get the best of both worlds, but these are our earlier miniatures before we learned such magic.
Thanks for the explanation. Does the above then mean that future units won't have the balled fist throughout then?
The balled fist is still pretty likely, because it can be adapted to hold things as well (melee weapons, pistols, etc) whereas other hand poses can not. Each model/design is assessed on a case by case basis though so it is impossible to say one way or the other.
We were speculating on how the Epirian Contractors ended up looking the way they do, and this seems like the thread to share it.
I can only assume the error lies in inexperience, and having too few eyes on them during the design stage. Everyone was too close to the material. Many of the design decisions make sense on paper, but on the finished model the end result is unpleasant. It's like they never asked a normal person for their viewpoint, which would have saved some trouble. It's like this book cover that must have been seen by at least one graphic designer and one editor and yet still went to print without a comma:
Or this book cover, which was later changed. (Look at it quickly and then look away for best effect.)
Spoiler:
I am hoping we'll see some renders or prints during the kickstarter before the finished minis go to tooling. (Fortunately, none of the other finished minis are as deeply troubled.)
Manchu wrote: So far, the minnow is my favorite. I love the heaviness of the design for a flying creature, indicating (to me at least) that it is actually swimming rather than flying -- maybe on the currents of transdimensional aether? These guys are definitely fauna from some kind of nightmare psychic ocean.
I totally get that vibe, too. It sounds like the background will fit in with that, so they are a successful representation. However, there are a lot of people who dislike the minnows, and I can also completely see why. Like campy old Adam West Batman, you either go with it or you hate it.
The minnow strikes me as a riskier design choice than, say, the Karist Trooper. The Trooper is totally serviceable sculpt (and seems designed for an easy-to-look-great contrasting paint scheme) but a bit generic IMO. The minnow, however, is not something I can recall seeing anywhere else. That sort of originality will definitely trigger the "Marmite effect."
Bob, that's a touch offensive, you are making some pretty off base presumptions there when you've only seen three models in the Epirian range and have not read any of the detailed background yet. You seem to be missing the large numbers of people who like the Epirians - our preliminary market research found the ratio of Karist fans to Epirian fans to be approximately 60:40 based on the core infantry model designs alone. You've yet to see the models in the flesh either, allowing proportions to be viewed as intended. It is fine for you (and plenty of other people) to dislike designs as presented, but drawing pointless conjecture about our standard development processes, which are extremely in depth and encompass scores of people, is just conjecture. We are not 8 guys sitting in a room, well over a hundred people have worked on this project with cross-level involvement and thousands of years of combined experience in game and plastic development.
Manchu wrote: The minnow strikes me as a riskier design choice than, say, the Karist Trooper. The Trooper is totally serviceable sculpt (and seems designed for an easy-to-look-great contrasting paint scheme) but a bit generic IMO. The minnow, however, is not something I can recall seeing anywhere else. That sort of originality will definitely trigger the "Marmite effect."
It's riskier, but it could also yield the biggest reward. Anyone who wants to get plastic flying aliens will pretty much have to buy them. It just depends on how many people are, say Highlording it up rather than Kroothawking over the Minnows. Same thing with the drones, however I think the payoff there is more obvious.
PS: I'm going to have to call them something else because Minnows just gets a certain song in my head.
legoburner wrote: Bob, that's a touch offensive, you are making some pretty off base presumptions there when you've only seen three models in the Epirian range and have not read any of the detailed background yet. You seem to be missing the large numbers of people who like the Epirians - our preliminary market research found the ratio of Karist fans to Epirian fans to be approximately 60:40 based on the core infantry model designs alone. You've yet to see the models in the flesh either, allowing proportions to be viewed as intended. It is fine for you (and plenty of other people) to dislike designs as presented, but drawing pointless conjecture about our standard development processes, which are extremely in depth and encompass scores of people, is just conjecture. We are not 8 guys sitting in a room, well over a hundred people have worked on this project with cross-level involvement and thousands of years of combined experience in game and plastic development.
I wish GW and Mantic would embed themselves in a critical discussion of their models. As it stands, what has been said in this thread is fairly lightweight in comparison.
I will repeat what I personally said in the N&R thread:
This is a great example of the George Lucas effect - only a few people saying "YES!" and not enough critical eyes saying "NO" before going into production. This is why there is a need for Professional Naysayers that someone can hire, who is not close to the project, and say "this is a terrible design." Oh, man, I wish GW and Mantic would hire one of those.
If well over a hundred people worked on this project and all approved the Epirian infantry sculpts, then shame on them. If no-one noticed the Karist broken wrist, then shame on them.
However, if well over a hundred people found no fault, then I can easily understand how a company with perhaps a dozen people, like Mantic, can let bad sculpts slip through, so there is at least a new perspective cast upon that situation.
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Manchu wrote: The minnow strikes me as a riskier design choice than, say, the Karist Trooper. The Trooper is totally serviceable sculpt (and seems designed for an easy-to-look-great contrasting paint scheme) but a bit generic IMO. The minnow, however, is not something I can recall seeing anywhere else. That sort of originality will definitely trigger the "Marmite effect."
I'm fully experiencing the Marmite effect with the fishbats. I really like how bizarre they are and will definitely get some, but they look totally out of place design-wise with the Bauhaus dudes. Like someone wanted to play a game and raided their collection of D&D miniatures and Warzone plastics.
legoburner wrote: Bob, that's a touch offensive, you are making some pretty off base presumptions there when you've only seen three models in the Epirian range and have not read any of the detailed background yet. You seem to be missing the large numbers of people who like the Epirians - our preliminary market research found the ratio of Karist fans to Epirian fans to be approximately 60:40 based on the core infantry model designs alone. You've yet to see the models in the flesh either, allowing proportions to be viewed as intended. It is fine for you (and plenty of other people) to dislike designs as presented, but drawing pointless conjecture about our standard development processes, which are extremely in depth and encompass scores of people, is just conjecture
I apologise for any offense. I mostly wanted to share an observation (and humorous pictures). I am honestly surprised at the 60:40 ratio. I do look forward to seeing them in the flesh.
I guess I just assumed you had the same design processes as Mantic. Thank you for clearing up my mistake.
. We are not 8 guys sitting in a room, well over a hundred people have worked on this project with cross-level involvement and thousands of years of combined experience in game and plastic development.
This is actually news to me. Reading the original thread, Spiral Arm Studios came across as a team of maybe a dozen people fully involved in the project and a lot of hired freelancers who have unknown levels of leeway for constructive feedback. I certainly did not suspect your team was composed of a hundred-plus people with millennia of plastic miniatures experience.
judgedoug, of course people in the team say when they dislike things, where did you get that we have unanimous internal approval for everything we do?!
We've had debates that have literally lasted months about the smallest details. At the end of the day it comes down to the following simple measurement:
If everyone who likes the model assigns a point value out of 10 to it, and that total is added up, is it more than double the value of everyone who dislikes the model assigning a point value out of 10 towards how much they dislike it?
We have an entire library full of sculpts that we've rejected because they didnt beat that equation. I could show you things that would make you give up on wargaming they are that off! A full quarter of our initial development budget was sunk into aborted projects as we learned how to make good models and they will never see the light of day because they dont pass muster.
on team sizes, that is counting people with some level of involvement of the project, three and a half years and dozens of people working at external firms we've worked with is a lot of people and experience - every time we approach new people at any level, we get them to sign an NDA and ask their opinions of everything in the pipeline to ensure we maintain a good measure of reality.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Same thing with the drones, however I think the payoff there is more obvious.
Yes the flying drones are really neat. And I like how they appear modular vis-a-vis the spiders. I wonder if that will be reflected in the crunch somehow.
judgedoug wrote: I'm fully experiencing the Marmite effect with the fishbats. I really like how bizarre they are and will definitely get some, but they look totally out of place design-wise with the Bauhaus dudes.
I'd guess the contrast is intentional and to my eyes it really works. I'm bothered more by the subtle difference between the Karist Troopers and Templars. I get that any closer would make them a little matchy-matchy. But I think the paint job is pulling them together more than the sculpts, creating a slight uncanny valley effect for me. The minnows, however, are so radically different from the humanoids that they go better together in my eyes. The Epirians also obviously have the organic/mechanical contrast going on, more obviously (the drones are robots, the Karists just dress like robots) but also more subtly (the Epirians almost look like they dress to blend in with their bots). I think this is why the Epirians look better to me alongside of their drones rather than on their own.
Legoburner, thanks for the look into your development process.
Was the example of the assigning point value to a model a real-world example of the design/approval by committee?
I know this is a project very close to you and I'm not criticizing the models to be mean. I'm criticizing the Epirian infantry because I do not think they are good. I'd rather you release kits that are well designed and astoundingly engineered and just blow away your competition. Models that I would buy bucketloads of and keep you sippin' gin and juice well into retirement.
And I say it's the George Lucas effect because I think it is. You've stated years and years and tons of people involved, yet we still got The Phantom Menace and Jar-Jar Binks. Over that time people became invested into the project and became so close they lost objectivity. As a total outsider to the project, the Epirian infantry just aren't good.
Doug, there is a clear difference between design/approval by committee and creating concept artwork and models and gauging the detailed opinions of dozens of people.
We have core guidelines for model design (scale, proportions, etc), we develop a model to those guidelines between a couple of people, that design then gets reviewed by a large pool of people, then passed on to the sculptors, and the final models are then reviewed and have opinions stated by a large pool of the extended team. Models and designs have been ditched at every level when they dont pass muster.
I'm sorry you dont like the basic Epirians, but it is not a 'phantom menace' situation - we have market research and significant analytics behind everything to mitigate risk, and there are plenty of people out there who do like them. We have lots of models that people dont like as well, and nobody outside the team will ever see them. We are not designing for judgedoug, we are designing for ourselves, We are not designing to fill every taste, we design around our preferences and requirements, then we test that design with our extended team, then we test that design with a representative slice of the community based on Dakka's significant dataset.
judgedoug wrote: As a total outsider to the project, the Epirian infantry just aren't good.
I wouldn't say they're bad either though. Yes, they don't quite match up to what a lot of other people do in resin or metal, but then again, those materials hold detail far better, and have to take account of infinitely fewer mechanical variables then plastic does. I've certainly seen far worse plastic kits (pumbagors anyone?).
I'd also like to state as someone who's only ever had an occasional passing update on this project whilst it was in development, I wasn't a big fan either when I first saw a picture of them. But when I actually held a sprue/assembled model in my hand, I realised that they looked far better in person then the pictures indicated, and had the potential to be kitbashed with a lot of other stuff out there.
The truth is, it was one of the first plastic kits this company made. Plastics have a horrible and expensive learning curve, and for one of your first kits to be not particularly amazing, but not bad either? I'd call that a success. The kit looks decent on the tabletop, has good conversion possibilities, and there are far worse plastic kits out there. As a hobbyist, I think that our little sci-fi wargaming worlds are all the richer for having them there as an option to paint, model, and play with.
legoburner wrote: We are not designing for judgedoug, we are designing for ourselves, then we design for our extended team, then we design for a representative slice of the community based on Dakka's significant dataset.
That seemed unnecessary. Don't go all Romeo on people who don't agree with your design decisions.
For what it is worth when I saw the Epirian infantry I was immediately turned off. They are simply models I would not want on my game table. While some of the other models shown do look nice, those Epirian Contractors look like they belong in a game from 20 years ago.
But you weren't designing these for me, either, so keep on keeping on.
I was not immediately sold on the Epirians, but they've definitely grown on me. I think their design aesthetic also looks significantly better alongside the drones. There are visual elements (yes, including the shoulder pads) that tie them together and really look good alongside one another, IMO. I think Manchu's comment about them dressing like robots kind of hit the nose on the head.
I think most folks like the Karists better, and I can see why (the armor and masks are frickin' sweet), but I suspect I'm going to favor Epirians, at least to start. And not just because I got to playtest the flying drones a bit and they're awesome.
It stands to reason that not everyone is going to like every miniature release for this game. That sounds like a very obvious thing to say, and I know it gets said a lot, but it's something that seems to be forgotten.
The same can also be said about the over-arching aesthetic style, the proportions and scale, the background, the style and mechanics of the game. It will either 'click' with you or not.
The most you can do is try to score a hit with as many potential players and purchasers as you can. Or, try and rope in a hardcore fanbase that will buy whatever you do, and hope that there is enough interest (something like Chibi anime sexbots, etc)
Personally, I would have been over the moon if I could have got plastics that looked this good twenty years ago! But, I like big-hair bands and The Lost Boys so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask..
legoburner wrote: Bob, that's a touch offensive, you are making some pretty off base presumptions there when you've only seen three models in the Epirian range and have not read any of the detailed background yet. You seem to be missing the large numbers of people who like the Epirians - our preliminary market research found the ratio of Karist fans to Epirian fans to be approximately 60:40 based on the core infantry model designs alone. You've yet to see the models in the flesh either, allowing proportions to be viewed as intended. It is fine for you (and plenty of other people) to dislike designs as presented, but drawing pointless conjecture about our standard development processes, which are extremely in depth and encompass scores of people, is just conjecture
I apologise for any offense. I mostly wanted to share an observation (and humorous pictures). I am honestly surprised at the 60:40 ratio. I do look forward to seeing them in the flesh.
I guess I just assumed you had the same design processes as Mantic. Thank you for clearing up my mistake.
. We are not 8 guys sitting in a room, well over a hundred people have worked on this project with cross-level involvement and thousands of years of combined experience in game and plastic development.
This is actually news to me. Reading the original thread, Spiral Arm Studios came across as a team of maybe a dozen people fully involved in the project and a lot of hired freelancers who have unknown levels of leeway for constructive feedback. I certainly did not suspect your team was composed of a hundred-plus people with millennia of plastic miniatures experience.
While I quite often enjoy your theatre in a lot of threads and it gives me a laugh Bob, sometimes I do wish you would give it a rest..
Pacific wrote: Personally, I would have been over the moon if I could have got plastics that looked this good twenty years ago! But, I like big-hair bands and The Lost Boys so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.
I remember being floored when my buddy got a computer with a Pentium II chip. Floored. I wouldn't want that computer now, 17 years later.
Yes, those Contractors would have been pretty spectacular in 1995, but in 2015 they simply look stiff and extremely dated.
he he I dont think I've gone full foam wars yet, I was poorly trying to illustrated the numbers involved at each stage - a couple, a few dozen, multiple score, so my apologies for any antagonism that might have come across in that - preparing for Salute and a Kickstarter within 24 hours of each other make word not good type!
I am touched that there is so much passion already over so few models and snippets of information, and know that your expectations are extremely high given our pedigree. If you like the drones, wait until you see the hunter, and if you like the minnows you are going to be blown away by their bigger brother.
(please excuse the delay in response too, I was reading some of DC's new 52 before getting ready for bed)
legoburner wrote: We are not designing for judgedoug, we are designing for ourselves, then we design for our extended team, then we design for a representative slice of the community based on Dakka's significant dataset.
That seemed unnecessary. Don't go all Romeo on people who don't agree with your design decisions.
Not agreeing with design decisions is fine. The point being made was that someone not agreeing with design decisions doesn't automatically make them bad decisions.
I'm always on the lookout for new Sci Fi rulesets and I hope JudgeDoug does the KS so I can try it.
Having said that if I ever choose Epirian as my faction I'd have to use a different model line as their gear looks non-functional and the weapons actually look useless. I understand it's the "future" and "Sci Fi" but I'd like a little realism in the design of the weapons and gear. That may just be the warfighter in me though.
Still though I hope this KS does very well because I currently have no Sci Fi ruleset that I can say I really enjoy.
judgedoug wrote: I'm criticizing the Epirian infantry because I do not think they are good. As a total outsider to the project, the Epirian infantry just aren't good.
You're not alone, judgedoug. They're pretty uninspired to me as well, and I, plainly, don't like the pants. It seems....I don't know....overdone without adding anything new or unique?
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legoburner wrote: We are not designing for judgedoug, we are designing for ourselves, then we design for our extended team, then we design for a representative slice of the community based on Dakka's significant dataset.
With comments like that, you're not going to endear yourselves to anyone, which is a curious approach considering you're going to run a KS.
If you're designing for yourself and then your extended team, then perhaps you should fund everything on your own.
legoburner wrote: We are not designing for judgedoug, we are designing for ourselves, then we design for our extended team, then we design for a representative slice of the community based on Dakka's significant dataset.
With comments like that, you're not going to endear yourselves to anyone, which is a curious approach considering you're going to run a KS.
If you're designing for yourself and then your extended team, then perhaps you should fund everything on your own.
Have to agree with the Cinc here (shock! ) You may not like the critique but if you want to be professional you have to take it into consideration.
Personally the only problems i have with the eperians is that the arms look a tad short. The fist is not a problem but an open hand would also be nice.
What was so offensive precisely? That he can't please everyone, and that ultimately he has to stay true to the vision that inspired him in the first place over the opinions of a handful of people? Some of whom are being inexplicably antagonistic and then jumping on him the second he says anything even vaguely asserting that their opinion is not the sole measure of value on planet Earth?
Come on. Vote with your wallet, buy if you like, don't if you don't. Criticize if you like too. But when you have repeated the same point 10 times and are asserting your view is the only one, you are no longer debating, you are getting into harassment territory. If it is going to fail, let it fail, if it is going to succeed, let it succeed. Why are you invested in either option really? You can just walk by the window you know, you don't have to go in the store you weren't going to buy anything from anyways and start yelling at the people who want to shop there lol...
Jumping on him for that statement yet saying nothing about some of the comments directed at him is pretty lopsided too. If you want only the politest of comments, ask it of everyone.
Jumping on him for that statement yet saying nothing about some of the comments directed at him is pretty lopsided two. If you want only the politest of comments, ask it of everyone.
Well, not entirely. No one else on the thread is going to be asking for donations to a KS at the end of the week, so there's going to be a bit of difference in how the commentary is received.
Like I said, neither of the two presently shown factions do anything for me aesthetically. The drones are solid, but I'm not sure I really have a use for them.
He did apologize for that cincy, not sure what else he can add to that really - preparing for Salute and a Kickstarter launch is a lot of work, and "make word not good type" . Doesn't excuse it, but that's what happens when you engage about things. The apology is below in case it got missed!
legoburner wrote: ...my apologies for any antagonism that might have come across in that - preparing for Salute and a Kickstarter within 24 hours of each other make word not good type!
I am touched that there is so much passion already over so few models and snippets of information, and know that your expectations are extremely high given our pedigree. If you like the drones, wait until you see the hunter, and if you like the minnows you are going to be blown away by their bigger brother.
(please excuse the delay in response too, I was reading some of DC's new 52 before getting ready for bed)
Then don't buy? He is not asking you to buy anything, he is offering something for people who are interested. He is putting the word out yes, but so he can attract people who are interested. If you are fundamentally not interested for any reason, then he didn't make it tailored to you did he? It's really not complicated.
I get not liking it. Totally. I get liking it. Totally. Either way is perfectly fine with me. What I don't get is this kind of attitude that in making something you didn't like, they have in some way insulted you. That is where it turns off the road for me.
Plus, there are certain people making arguments/statements that completely ignore the fact that the great majority of commentary in that thread is positive and full of enthusiasm. I know it doesn't serve your argument (general your) but pretending it doesn't exist isn't really fair is it?
Don't confuse simply being rude with offering criticism basically. All criticism has been taken remarkably stoically from what I see. Give some credit instead of fishing for an excuse to attack the poor guy. The molds appear to be done... but I bet my bottom dollar they are listening and if able, they will do your best to please you in the future. For now though, there is no point in doing anything beyond not buying is there? Anything further than that seems a bit... malicious no?
I don't particularly like the aesthetics, nor do I have a ton of interest in investing myself in a new sci-fi IP, which Is why I haven't been providing a ton of commentary in general. Honestly, I mostly provided what little commentary I did to express that there are others that agree with what judgedoug is saying. Again, I'm not going to belabor it because nothing about it that I've seen warrants me getting out my wallet.
My larger point is that, as someone putting their hands out and asking for money via KS, I think you need to be 100% measured in your responses. Type it, read it, edit it, and type it again. And then do that again before posting.
The fact remains that, despite the apology, a statement was made that expressed a bit of the "take my ball and go home" attitude. Which again, doesn't seem to be the best attitude to take when asking for funding for your new product.
While I won't be voting with my wallet in that I will be skipping the kickstarter, I would still like to think that we can all make criticisms about the models. Granted I am not interested in the game yet but I would still love to see it succeed as I can't think of a better group of people to start up a wargame given how much they obviously love our little hobby.
If I can push along the development of some awesome looking models by critiquing some designs that don't appeal then I am certainly going to do that! I get the feeling that this game will develop in much the same way as Mantic have only better and faster, starting off with decent but flawed models and slowly evolving into quite an awesome little company.
We completely appreciate everyone willing to give their feedback about the game/models, whether they love it or hate it, at least you're giving us insights on what tickles your fancy.
So thanks to everyone who has done so up to this point and will no doubt continue to do so. We are listening to everything that is being said and at the very least will consider it for the future.
Also please do your best to forgive any public gaffes we might have. We are still a brand new miniature gaming company, and not surprisingly have a ton on our plates at this very moment, which can sometimes make for hastily written responses when they never should be. We know there should never be such lapses, and we will continue to work towards trying to make sure that is the case.
I hope that some or all of you can make it to Salute this weekend to take a look at the models 'in the flesh'. I know from my own experience, that they look way better to my eye in person than they do when blown-up in pics on a screen (and I happen to like them on the screen).
Vertrucio wrote: There is also nothing to be done about it since these steel molds have already been cut.
They can acknowledge that they need to not make the same mistakes next time, instead of sacrificing the entire line on the altar of backwards compatibility. Which is my primary concern at this point. I was never going to buy these initial kits, because it's going to be at least a year until we see the first female kit, and I have no use for robotic auxiliaries without a core of sapients to build the army around. But if they came out tomorrow I would almost certainly not buy them, because these initial kits have flaws that feel like they would be deal breakers if they are allowed to persist.
Well, that escalated quickly. For that, I am sorry. I meant my comments to be far less serious and insulting than they came across. They were the result of a lighthearted conversation comparing MEdge with Mantic, and I thought the discussion should be brought here (although I dropped the Mantic references out of respect). In no way was I trying to insult the company or call out anyone personally. There is no ill will here.
To put things in perspective, despite the criticism I still plan to pledge day one and fully expect to enjoy assembling or converting all the minis I receive, including the Epirians. Do I have some criticisms? Are there some mistakes I will bring up in the hopes they won't be made again? Absolutely, and I'll do it with a bad joke or two. Does this mean I don't love the product? No. I just want it to go to medical school or I will disown you be the best it can be.
Now, I have seen some criticism of how Legoburner, et al., are handling the kickstarter, so maybe we should discuss that. How can they make this the best gaming kickstarter possible? I'm no Buzzsaw, but it seems to me like Legoburner, Yakface and the gang really know their stuff. They've done a ton of preparation. They are releasing information both in universe and out of it to keep the momentum going. They are open and communicative with the community. And they have novelty on their side, in terms of launching a wargame through their own (in)famous forum. They've certainly got Gates of Antares beat all to shart. MEdge most reminds me of Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2, in that there is a lot of buildup and name recognition at play, with lots of artwork and pictures of existing minis.
I predict that Maelstrom's Edge will make $300,000 in the first 72 hours. (It's in USD, right?) I would say the first 24, but it is a weekend and just after Salute, so that might effect things. I also suspect the kickstarter will appear to be heavily front-loaded, but with a strong finish due to some strategically with-held revelations/stretch goals/photos of loved ones tied to chairs. What do you think?
Bob that was awesome of you, thanks for clearing it up. People are gonna be sensitive about both their baby and their money, so the kind of attitude you display above is a great one and all that
could be asked for IMHO to keep things cool and productive.
From what I gather the Kickstarter will be more than most and less. It will be unprecedented in many ways I think, in that truly there will be absolutely no empty promises, no misleads.
I certainly hope that though the initial models shown have not pleased you, the two other legs of the IP, the rules and the background, will give enough meat on the bone to the overall that you feel invested. The models are a big part certainly but there is more to chew on if you stick in I think. Hopefully you and others will be able to invest more enthusiastically in future models and designs from a satisfied rules and background position.
Again, that is very cool to see what you wrote there, restores my hope in humanity
I'm not sure what you mean by the models displeased me. I love-love-love the drones in all their forms. I also really like the Karists and the Minnows, even if I acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses. The Epirians are ...well, they're conversation starters. I've bought minis with less going for them, that's for sure. Besides, the chaps will help them fit in next to the 'dat booty' Eisenkern.
And I absolutely want to read more of the fluff. Once those novels come out in paperback, I'll be all over them.
And I absolutely want to read more of the fluff. Once those novels come out in paperback, I'll be all over them.
We will have a limited print run of about two hundred paperbacks of each novel available at Salute. Obviously as the co-author of the books I would love to have hard copies available full time, but printing is expensive so it really depends on how well the launch is received. It's definitely something we'll keep in mind moving forward as we want as many people as possible reading the background to our universe. I also intend to explore putting them on other digital ebook stores soon for those that don't have Kindle.
I guess I'll have to pay someone to buy me a copy at Salute since I'm not going to be there.
As for the Epirians. I do think they are a bit blocky, and that's okay. I just wish they had a slightly more realistic approach. (Irony since I collect Space Marines.) I'm okay with a little bit of static, if they just had more realistic weaponry or a tad more chest armor to compliment the shoulders. Am I saying I wouldn't play with them or buy a squad just for the hell of it? No.
By what I mean concerning realistic weapons, I'm all for sci-fi but, perhaps make them a tad smaller, and take a cue from say Mass Effect with their design. I'm not saying go all 100% ham and super future with them but, just make them a little smoother and less brickish?
I feel like they are too big to be realistic, and too blocky to look that way but, in the same token not blocky enough or large enough to be iconic like, let's say the Starcraft Marines rifles. I'm sure that avid modelers could chop off the weapons and replace them with Anvil Industry or Zinge weapons however.
That being said, I also love the contractor's robots and mechs, along with the concept of transferable knowledge. The faction I will support and put time into will be the Karists as I adore everything so far about them from design to fluff. The sprues look very nice btw. Also I don't get the complaints with Minnows. They're not perfect but, no where near bad. I love their maw design. A smidgen of GS and my god, they'd be lovely.
I hope this doesn't offend, just my two cents so far.
Legoburner in response to discussing the Karist wrist on the N&R thread:
"I appreciate the point you've made and we have responded with the reasoning and fix but the announcement thread is not the best place for continued debate on it now that everything has been covered. I know you are a good guy from your great stuff in the mantic threads, but this announcement post is linked to our livelihoods so we need to keep it fairly on track with the reveal rather than a 2 page dissection of a single feature on a single model. Feel free to start a thread elsewhere if you want to discuss it further as we are not trying to censor anything."
Thankfully, Bob made a thread that is outside of the N&R thread where it can be discussed. But, for the last page I've read a handful of posts still discussing the models and a large pile of sycophantic posts calling for politeness and demanding everyone stop criticizing anything about the game. I am wondering if I will see these same posts applied to any other company's discussions on Dakka.
Now... I am obviously the poster boy for Maelstrom-hate because I posted the first critical post on the N&R thread.
But, seriously, does everyone think I hate Dakka and legoburner and yakface? I've been here for years and made a ton of posts and generally try to be helpful. I enjoy the lively discussions, especially from some key members, who have very critical eyes and acerbic wit but are generally correct about companies putting out garbage. It's not like other forums full of x-lovers/y-haters or grognards hating anything made past 1990.
However, just because Dakka is making a game does not mean it is a sacred cow.
Maybe because I love Dakka that I would hope that a game that it creates will be the best on the market?
According to some posters, I should be polite, and keep my mouth shut, and not say anything if what I say is going to be negative about Maelstrom's Edge.
But that's not what Dakka is, for me.
Maybe Maelstrom's Edge's sculpts are "good enough" for people willing to look past some glaring flaws, but I expect the best from this site, especially if they hope to compete with a rapidly-crowding market.
Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.
While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.
EarloftheNorth wrote: Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.
While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.
I do not think the UAMC arms would be compatible with these guys, though.
According to some posters, I should be polite, and keep my mouth shut, and not say anything if what I say is going to be negative about Maelstrom's Edge.
But that's not what Dakka is, for me.
Maybe Maelstrom's Edge's sculpts are "good enough" for people willing to look past some glaring flaws, but I expect the best from this site, especially if they hope to compete with a rapidly-crowding market.
I think you may have the wrong end of the stick, tbh. No-one has a problem with you saying what you dislike. But people can, and will disagree with you. I've no dog in this fight, and I've found some of your criticisms mildly over-exaggerated/picky for the sake of being picky (and I don't think I'm the only one). I'm not sure you should take disagreement as, 'put up and shut up', in the same way you shouldn't necessarily dub anyone else as being 'sycophantic' for disagreeing with you.
Less of a broad brush about other people would probably go down better, y'know?
Now... I am obviously the poster boy for Maelstrom-hate because I posted the first critical post on the N&R thread.
There's Maelstrom-hate? Most of what I've seen is the same criticism over and over, namely that the Epirians are too blocky. Which is true. It's been explained technically why that is, which is fair enough. Some people like it, some dislike it. Some think it's not the best, but it'll do.
I'm really not sure I'd qualify that as 'Maelstrom-hate', although it does have a tendency to get boring to read about as a criticism after you've read it for the umpteenth dozen time.
Ketara wrote: There's Maelstrom-hate? Most of what I've seen is the same criticism over and over, namely that the Epirians are too blocky.
I'm personally having trouble remembering when I said the Epirians were blocky. My first criticism was over the Karist's broken wrist.
My criticisms, reposted so you can see that at no point, I said that Epirians were "blocky"
The kneepads were designed by someone who has no idea how kneepads work. They will slip off the moment the dude takes a step.
The shoulder armor is held on by wishes.
The rifle is somehow even brickier than a Bolter and must weigh about 40 pounds.
There is no abdominal armor despite that being the most vital part of armor (and the reason that modern military has abdominal armor). (and medieval militaries) (seriously no one likes getting shot or stabbed in the gut) (why the shoulder pad fetish?)
The assless chaps. Seriously. Do they have a butt flap as well? Do they eat a lot of Activia yogurt?
THE HEAD SIZE. Their heads appear to be larger than the armored versions of the other two models. and their arms are huge. Like also they appear to be thicker than the dudes in powered armor. (wait, I got it... do the powered armor dudes FIT INSIDE the Epirian skin-suits?)
Actually, these guys look like someone gave hydrocephalic Hobbits some Nerf guns that were spray painted black.
This is a great example of the George Lucas effect - only a few people saying "YES!" and not enough critical eyes saying "NO" before going into production. This is why there is a need for Professional Naysayers that someone can hire, who is not close to the project, and say "this is a terrible design." Oh, man, I wish GW and Mantic would hire one of those.
and then
Since the Epirians appear to by physically larger than the powered armor gents, one must assume that either the Epirians are a foam rubber suit that is worn by another, normal-sized entity. Or that the Karists are small and slender and the Epirians of the future are uplifted children, retaining the same rough head-to-body ratio as a toddler.
Here's another that's good, but not mine
"Yea, I'd certainly never buy one (the gun). If they're supposed to be futuristic, they certainly should have better sights. There's no stock, so that's gakky enough. But since there's no stock, you can assume they shoot rounds with low recoil, so why would you need the gun to be so damn bulky if it shoots a crappy round."
You could have also used 'Chunky', 'square' and a dozen other words to describe the same effect I'm talking about. . The main reason you're ambivalent about them/dislike them, is the same reason as most other people who are ambivalent/dislike them, which was my point. I never said you specifically said the word 'blocky', I was more referring the overall aesthetic issue some people have.
You could have also used 'Chunky', 'square' and a dozen other words to describe the same effect I'm talking about. . The main reason you're ambivalent about them/dislike them, is the same reason as most other people who are ambivalent/dislike them, which was my point. I never said you specifically said the word 'blocky', I was more referring the overall aesthetic issue some people have.
Well, no, you directly referred to my initial post about the Karist's broken wrist and then attributed all Epirians-are-blocky posts from _all of the other people who also dislike the sculpts_ directly to me.
So, I'm _not_ the poster boy. Right.
Well, no, you directly referred to my initial post about the Karist's broken wrist and then attributed all Epirians-are-blocky posts from _all of the other people who also dislike the sculpts_ directly to me.
So, I'm _not_ the poster boy. Right.
Reread, I'm questioning if there actually is any 'Maelstrom-hate' generally. If that's not what you're getting from the words, please reread with the knowledge that that is my intention.
Frankly, I'm really confused about where you'd get the idea that minor comments about kneepads/gun sights qualify as 'Maelstrom-hate'. I mean, wouldn't you agree that it seems a bit of an extreme phrase, for what is 90% of people criticising the blockiness? (or whatever word you choose to represent that). Let alone for there to be a 'poster-boy' for it. It all just seems to be such overblown language.
EarloftheNorth wrote: Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.
While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.
I do not think the UAMC arms would be compatible with these guys, though.
Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.
One thing I noticed in the scale comparison is that next to the Epirian, the Cadian seems podgy....
which I've never felt while looking at them in person, which makes me wonder how much of a distorted view I'm getting of the blockyness of the Epirians.
Wow you're right the Cadian looks like a wad of used chewing gum next to the Epirian to me lol.. very kinda... mushy. You are so familiar with the model that you kinda just pass it over as a scale reference without taking in the details, but when you really look and compare those two in specific you are right, there is a story to see there. Detail on the Epirian to my eye is quite superior in definition. Proportionally, shoulders are a bit wider but the rest seems pretty darn close to GW heroic, which has been stated is the intended scale (even if I personally prefer true scale as well aesthetically).
I believe this was done to try get cross compatibility/part swappability with as much of the market as possible. It makes it so the minis have added value for many in terms of the spectrum of possible uses/applications as models or as parts.
Again, not at all saying that you can't dislike them. Not one bit. But I think it is worth looking at that, realizing proportionally, in the heroic scale, they are actually pretty good looking compared to a comparable baseline Cadian at least on a detail and techinical level if not a style one?
To the shoulder pads question, to me, they always had a use for me in terms of being a place to put markings, squad identifiers etc. If minis were all super realistic, then there wouldn't be a lot of free, flat area to do something creative graphically. That being said, I'm not saying a hyper realistic mini has anything wrong with it, just different flavours, different choices. What annoys you for being unrealistic may be a familiar and welcome utility and look for others. Neither being wrong or right of course.
Scale wise, for the 'this head wouldn't fit in that' and so on, the Cadian is either 8 feet tall or that space marine is the mugsy bogues of the astartes... heroic is heroic, there will always be a... chibi-esque aspect in terms of deforms to suit an individual model aesthetic, balanced vs the effort to maintain cohesion across a line. They don't always match up, kinda par for the course. Dark Eldar heads would never fit in their helmets, the helmets are proportions to be nearly the size of a bare head in most heroic cases, so long as the face is not visible. DE jetbike rider blankface cobra commander head comes to mind. Given they are already squished for the scale in many ways, a 'true fitting' helmet would be disproportionately huge in a lot of cases. The preceding, of course, being merely my personal observation and opinion on the matter, YMMV.
Anyways, again, you can hate it, and you don't need a 'good' reason, that's up to you and no one can gain-say your personal opinion. That being said, just contain that personal opinion to yourself personally, and stick inside Dakka's basic rules, and I think everyone and everything will be fine.
The owners are not asking for special treatment from what I can see, they are simply asking for the most basic forum rules to also apply to them too. Nothing special added, but nothing basic taken away either. That seems darn fair to me.
*Stares at the Cadian some more* wow my brain is trying to tell me it's out of focus compared to the Epirian... though paint job quality may have a bit to do with it.
Let me just say that I actually do l̶i̶k̶e LOVE the Epirian Contractors.
They also will look better and do look better with different colour schemes. I like this one from the ones given best, as the chaps are not as confronting when they are a similar or neutral colour compared to the pants. It makes it look more like cool scifi work wear/overalls than chaps. Also I'd paint the shoulder and knee pads a more muted, less attention grabbing colour, like black, or the same green colour as the chaps. And that red thing doesn't suit any scheme... What even is it?
They're not perfect, but they do have a lot of potential. I would happily add them to my collection with a bit of converting.
They have a few flaws OTHERWISE I REALLY LIKE THEM! I am confident in my modelling skills to adapt them to my vision of what I would want it to look like. Modelling is pretty much the whole of the Hobby for me, even though I may consider getting into the gaming side of this, considering how well thought out and planned this is. I only buy models I really like. I would buy the Epirian Contractors based on that premise! They are unique and have an aesthetic that appeals to me and I can see their beauty under all the little flaws. They just ooze a rough and ready burly mercenary engineer. .All the flaws I see are easily and happily fixed for me. It actually even creates more of a challenge which I prefer. Just making kits like copy and pastes is never as rewarding.
Suggested changes for mk2 -The guns need to be less blocky IMO (Mostly Just the blocky barrel and Impotent looking clip), an Autogunesque rifle would look perfect with these guys and still might be easily noticeable at a distance. -The biceps seem as wide as the head. Although this doesn't bother me too much as it actually kind of suits the whole aesthetic IMO. -The arms also look a tad bit chicken winged. Only the ones taking aim. Or maybe it just looks a tad bit off without a stock/rifle butt. -The hats are a bit blocky and helmets might have suited better IMO. And, as I said above. What is that red cable running from the neck to the belt? If it has something to do with the background I can totally understand but purely aesthetically it kind of breaks the 'flow' and painting it red is kind of jarring. -Shoulder and knee pads are a tiny bit off for me. minor reshaping/resizing would do it do me. -Also I'd obviously model the clenched fist had to be anything but...
I have no problems fixing these myself. However others will not fork out money unless their expectations are met in the kit. It does seem solely based on reviews here on dakka that for a significant amount of people these expectations are not met. Developers, welcome this criticism and take it as free market research added to you're already (I'm sure) extensive supply. I am sure you are already doing this as well. I see a lot of potential and this is the beginnings of hopefully something really great. Best of luck!!!
I am also really liking the Karists squads, more so than the Epirians I'm afraid. I will definitely be getting some of these as well. Will also be making some minor conversions, fixing a broken wrist, ect. but they are really sweet. I am not 100% liking the Minnows or the drones (which most others seem to love). Though they may look better in person. .
I don't know what the red thing is. Decorative? It doesn't work as a zipper as the clothing underneath it is layered. Symbolic to the Foundation?
It's red or orange-red in all the concept art, so that's what it got painted, but I think it's the shape of it rather than the colour that makes it stand out.
Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.
Actually, you may be right. The relatively normal size UAMC arms might be an improvement over the current cabbage patch kids arms. The difficulty will be either modifying the torso to look like body armor or just painting it like body armor.
There's not much that can be done about the legs, though. Unless the outer layer is supposed to be some sort of kevlar? It's almost impossible to bend your knees in kevlar pants, let alone with a single strap kneepad :/
Though you have my interest piqued now. I wonder how the Epirian torso would look on UAMC legs?
Actually dude you may have convinced me to buy them because the UAMC have the extra pair of legs, two extra sets of arms, and four extra heads per sprue, and the Epirian torso will fill in for the lack of third torso on the UAMC sprue.
Hmm... I don't suppose you have extra UAMC you wanna sell?
Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.
Actually, you may be right. The relatively normal size UAMC arms might be an improvement over the current cabbage patch kids arms. The difficulty will be either modifying the torso to look like body armor or just painting it like body armor.
There's not much that can be done about the legs, though. Unless the outer layer is supposed to be some sort of kevlar? It's almost impossible to bend your knees in kevlar pants, let alone with a single strap kneepad :/
Though you have my interest piqued now. I wonder how the Epirian torso would look on UAMC legs?
Actually dude you may have convinced me to buy them because the UAMC have the extra pair of legs, two extra sets of arms, and four extra heads per sprue, and the Epirian torso will fill in for the lack of third torso on the UAMC sprue.
Hmm... I don't suppose you have extra UAMC you wanna sell?
Sorry, I've been looking for some more myself will no luck.......I'm really wishing I picked a few more up when they were available, but they were always hard to find in stock in the UK, even before the Kickstarter debacle.
I'm still fuming that my dog ate three sprues of UAMC. Some of the heads survived, at least.
I really hope we get to see some renders of the robots before they go to tooling. They look like they should be awesome, but imagine if they ended up with ball joint ankles or tiny feet that just make them look sad...
I have not read the books, but I would love to read some reviews of them in this thread. Please hide all spoilers, because I want to read them as soon as they are available in paperback.
I grabbed the books and they have been enjoyable so far. I'm almost finished with them and very much like what I've read to this point.
My one criticism is that the books seem like they were literally one book split into two for the sole purpose of getting a little extra revenue out of them. Totally my impression, of course. There may have been other reasons to split it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There has also been a whiff of accusation about the inspiration for Maelstrom's Edge that cannot safely be discussed in the original thread.
Scuzzy pointed out that the name, and possibly some of the thematic elements, of MEdge sound very similar to his own game, Vor: the Maelstrom. I am not familiar with that universe at all, so I can't really speak to the accuracy of his claims, but feel like they should be addressed. If you know much about Vor: TheM, please share your thoughts on the matter. Let's either validate the comparison or put a rightful end to it.
Here is a picture of some Vor minis I found. I don't see many similarities right off...
Honestly the first thing I thought of when I read the initial blurb was "Wow, this reminds me a lot of VOR". I found another similarity in the novels with the description of an alien being pretty similar to the Zykhee race from VOR.
We won't be able to put any end to this, but the respective parties are/have discussed the issue and I'm sure are working it out.
My issue with the models so far is with their proportions. The GW style "heroic" proportions were chosen, and that is a bit baffling to me given the state of technology and competition these days.
I also don't believe I've seen any of the artist or sculptor's names and I'm curious as to why. Especially given that the game's success will most likely rest more on their shoulders than anyone else's involved in the project.
EarloftheNorth wrote: One thing I noticed in the scale comparison is that next to the Epirian, the Cadian seems podgy....
which I've never felt while looking at them in person, which makes me wonder how much of a distorted view I'm getting of the blockyness of the Epirians.
It is actually quite amazing to see the difference between how models with exaggerated proportions (aka 'heroic' scale) look in a close-up picture compared to when you see them in real life from a normal distance (3-5 feet).
I too have always looked at Cadians on a table and thought: Those are awesome looking models and a great looking army. I never once considered just how abnormal they looked until you really study them in a comparison picture against other models...but even knowing that, does that change how good they look on the table from a normal distance? Not to me it doesn't.
On another site, I saw someone commenting on the MEdge models saying that heroic scale was a holdover from the 80's when sculptors sucked and is now something that is dated and has no place in the current marketplace. The thing is, heroic scale was not created because the sculptors were unable to properly represent human anatomy at 28mm. I think we can all agree that sculptors have been able to properly represent the human body at much smaller scales than that for many, many years.
Instead, the sculptors purposely exaggerate certain parts of the body knowing full well that we don't typically look at our models 6 inches from our face. We look at them from 3-5 feet away on the table, or 6-8 feet away if across the table. From that distance, 28mm models scaled proportionately tend to have spindly limbs, tiny heads, and tiny guns. Sure, they look phenomenal when you pick them up and stare at them next to your face, or look at close-up pictures of them on the internet, but that is not how most of us spend our time looking at our models! For example, Wyrd makes some absolutely amazing miniatures which I am always thoroughly impressed by when I see them online or look at them up close, but when I went to Adepticon I was just walking by and browsing games of Malifaux and I honestly could not make out what a whole lot of the models even were without stooping over to take a close look at them.
It also makes assembling and painting the models way, way easier...which personally for me is another huge selling point. In a way, it kind of reminds me of some of the tricks and techniques that moviemakers have used in the past to 'trick' the viewer (mainly before CGI made it so you could do anything you want). They used to use matte paintings and other techniques that, yeah, if you looked at the frame really, really closely you could see it was BS, but when viewed from the normal movie watching position, looks fantastic.
Of course, this is all just my own personal opinions based on what I like. Ultimately there are going to be plenty of people out there who cannot stand exaggerated proportions on their models no matter what the reasoning, and I am most certainly not going to be able to convince you otherwise, and that is fine. However, like I've said a few times, I hope some or all of you might be able to make it out to Salute to see our models in person. Because I know that my reaction to seeing them in the flesh was very different to when I originally saw the pictures of them online, and I'd be willing to wager that more than a few of you might have a similar reaction to me when you actually see the models.
I grabbed the books and they have been enjoyable so far. I'm almost finished with them and very much like what I've read to this point.
My one criticism is that the books seem like they were literally one book split into two for the sole purpose of getting a little extra revenue out of them. Totally my impression, of course. There may have been other reasons to split it.
Thank you for the kind words, having spent a long time co-writing, rewriting and editing the novels I'm very glad people are enjoying them.
The split in the books was due to money, but not for us to make more. As we are a fledgling company we didn't have a publishing deal, so we are putting the paperbacks out for sale at Salute on our own investment. The original length of the two books combined was too big for us to fit into a traditional binding, and we couldn't print both together as one book without pricing it at a level that we thought would be too much for people to want to buy it. As a result, we split it into the two volumes you have read. We didn't want to confuse people by having one ebook with one name and two paperbacks with different names, so we split the ebooks as well. I think we've priced them at a level that for launch ebooks is appropriate for their length - I'd be interested to know what you think about that.
You can blame me and Stephen if you like - when we started writing we originally intended it to be one 80-90,000 word novel, which is about typical for this sort of thing. But due to the complexity of trying to portray both factions in alternating storylines, the book grew and the final version was just over 130,000 words, which caused the issues with being unable to print it as a single volume. We hope that the final result is worth the extra word count, and the resultant split into two books!
I'll admit that the Contractors weren't my favorite models when they were first announced. But looking at the scale shot there, I can totally see how 20 of them on the tabletop are going to look pretty dang good. I really like the look of massed Cadian troops and in that picture, they look downright silly looking and the Contractors show up pretty well.
Add to that that there are numerous models that I haven't liked until I saw them in person and with alternate color schemes and I think they'll be just fine. Are there things to improve on, yes, of course. But my panties are firmly unbunched in this case.
Once again, this is not hate, but I have to disagree. To my eyes, the Cadian looks like a much more uh, confident sculpt. Stylistically, the Cadian is a much more extreme version of heroic scale, but the design and proportions make a lot more sense in that scale than on the Contractor. The difference is akin to that between a well-drawn chibi figure and an a rougher comic strip character; the 'scale' may be abnormal on both, but one of them is clearly taking advantage of the style rather than working to overcome it. That's not to say one is good and the other is bad. One of them just seems to need more development to truly shine.
yakface wrote: However, like I've said a few times, I hope some or all of you might be able to make it out to Salute to see our models in person. Because I know that my reaction to seeing them in the flesh was very different to when I originally saw the pictures of them online, and I'd be willing to wager that more than a few of you might have a similar reaction to me when you actually see the models.
For the vast majority of us, though - Salute is obviously not going to be any kind of option, just the same as Adepticon. What this means is we really only have photographs to go on until either KS fulfilment or retail. "It looks better in hand" is a pretty common thing that's said about all kinds of products, after all.
mikhaila wrote: Are there plans for distribution past kickstarter?
There's been a bit of discussion on tournaments, etc in the other thread - and they started the project before KS was really a thing, so I assume the firm plan is to sell at retail via as many kinds of retailers/distribution channels as they can.
yakface wrote: On another site, I saw someone commenting on the MEdge models saying that heroic scale was a holdover from the 80's when sculptors sucked and is now something that is dated and has no place in the current marketplace. The thing is, heroic scale was not created because the sculptors were unable to properly represent human anatomy at 28mm. I think we can all agree that sculptors have been able to properly represent the human body at much smaller scales than that for many, many years.
Instead, the sculptors purposely exaggerate certain parts of the body knowing full well that we don't typically look at our models 6 inches from our face. We look at them from 3-5 feet away on the table, or 6-8 feet away if across the table. From that distance, 28mm models scaled proportionately tend to have spindly limbs, tiny heads, and tiny guns.
Sure, I think most people agree on this aspect. However, There's not just one "heroic 28mm". Heroic 28mm from the late 80's featured slightly exaggerated heads, weapons, and poses. During the 90's, the heroic proportions went insane - melon heads and ham-fists and the total removal of the waist. This was a specific "GW style" brought on by certain sculptors such as Gary Morley, and copied by other companies at the time for games such as Chronopia, Warzone, Void 1.1, and saturated the market in the late 90's.
In the last decade or so there has been a renewed interest by all non-GW companies to head back towards the normal-sized "heroic 28", going to normal proportions.
One can compare the GW 28 (GW, Chronopia, Warzone, Void 1.1, Maelstrom's Edge) to something like this, which is a great illustration between Truescale 28 (the HAT and Fife and Drum Figure) versus heroic 28 (the Perry dragoon, in the middle)
Truescale 28mm HAT, Heroic 28mm Perry, and Truescale 28mm Fife and Drum
And clearly this isn't the direction they chose to go. I think we get your complaints about the models, they aren't your cup of tea. But clearly they are someone's cup of tea so repeating the same thing isn't really getting any of us anywhere.
Jehan-reznor wrote: The problem i have with the eperians is that they have no shoulders it looks like the biceps are attached to the torso
From the back, it looks like the shoulder pads sit almost entirely on the upper arm. That might be throwing off their proportions. The shoulders don't look nearly so wide from the back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ozymandias wrote: And clearly this isn't the direction they chose to go. I think we get your complaints about the models, they aren't your cup of tea. But clearly they are someone's cup of tea so repeating the same thing isn't really getting any of us anywhere.
There are a couple reasons I feel we should keep discussing them.
1. This is the thread for it. The other thread drowns out any discussion of the minis, and there is already a large pushback from hardcore fans here, which means we need to reiterate our concerns to make sure they are heard and understood. You don't make the best products by only listening to rave reviews. Some of us feel the game would be better suited if the threads didn't become echo chambers.
2. The more we can elaborate on where specifically the models went wrong and work out the fine points, the more information Spiral Arm has to improve the next wave. They must care about how many people don't like the minis, why, and how much. Based on their positive and negative voting system, they are clearly interested in trying to minimize the negatives while increasing the positives. Their next line of humans could be 28mm heroic and still be much more successful if they learn what specific cues are throwing off a lot of potential customers. As Judgedoug pointed out, there is more than one way to do 28mm heroic. Many of the flaws that turn people off of the Epicurians are avoidable and not inherent in the scale or overall design.
Ozymandias wrote: And clearly this isn't the direction they chose to go. I think we get your complaints about the models, they aren't your cup of tea. But clearly they are someone's cup of tea so repeating the same thing isn't really getting any of us anywhere.
I was responding to the history of heroic scale 28mm figures and how ME's figures aren't normal "heroic 28mm" but are of the particular proportional style adopted by GW in the mid-late 90's.
However, please feel free to continue to police all of my posts and let me know when I have overstepped the Ozymandias standards of what should be discussed.
Okay, this picture, the Red guy is a Karist Tempest right?
He looks BAD-ARSE.
I honestly like him more than the white and purple even though that's the canon appearance of the karist, due to cybel and maelstrom energies being purple and such. I definitely will be painting my Karist in a similar scheme although I can't at all hope for them to turn out that way, if one of the studio artists wants to share how he did that (even for profit ) I would be on top of that.
The regular Karist and the maskless "sergeant" also look pretty phenomenal and I'll be happy to model/paint those.
and I'll echo the praise of the drone models, they look pretty great. both flying and walking
But I'll also restate what some other posters have said that the minnows and the Epirian contractors are a little polarizing. You either love them or hate them and I was personally pretty turned off by the models. So I will probably be making the other player play them
I'm pretty happy with the current range and what is planned for both factions in that I'll definitely be backing, but what caught my interest the most was the mention of the Broken (Aliens, Pirates and Renegades! yes please! ) and other subfactions, I know you're not even a little bit close to that sculpting/release or even know when that will be, and that you guys are busy with the launch, kickstarter and Salute, but when you have time, can we have some hints please? Maybe concept art? I'm not basing my buying decision on this but I want to know if I should get excited for future releases as I already am
Ozymandias wrote: And clearly this isn't the direction they chose to go. I think we get your complaints about the models, they aren't your cup of tea. But clearly they are someone's cup of tea so repeating the same thing isn't really getting any of us anywhere.
I was responding to the history of heroic scale 28mm figures and how ME's figures aren't normal "heroic 28mm" but are of the particular proportional style adopted by GW in the mid-late 90's.
However, please feel free to continue to police all of my posts and let me know when I have overstepped the Ozymandias standards of what should be discussed.
I wish I had that kind of time! Alas, you'll have to settle for a snarky comment every now and then.
It's like an insta-bitz box on a sprue! I can't number the amount of times I have thought "ooh, I just need a long pretty bit of plastic to spruce this up a bit". Seriously guys, this is pretty darn awesome.
I may not be into the minis themselves but I will definitely be getting some of these when they show up for sale. I bet we are going to see some pretty good terrain spring up from this stuff!
I am very excited about what MEdge may have to offer. I do admit there have been some modeling issues that have concern me (namely the wrists on the heavy Karist guys), but everything else has panned out well. The Epicurians look a lot better when paired with their robots (and probably even more so with whatever robots come in the future) and the Karists have a nice, signature look that I think will be very unique with the inclusion of the angel creatures.
The modular terrain is a fantastic solution. I have been impressed with the thought that has obviously gone into the execution of these ideas. It makes good sense, coming from folks who have played a number of different games and taking what works the best from each.
Looking forward to the Kickstarter tomorrow and seeing everything that's going to be available!
As is traditional in these situations, I have created a piece of concept art showing the kind of thing I'd like to see. The scale is ~6.4 heads tall - nowhere near as stylised as the plastic cadians are, but still a bit exaggerated.
AlexHolker wrote: As is traditional in these situations, I have created a piece of concept art showing the kind of thing I'd like to see. The scale is ~6.4 heads tall - nowhere near as stylised as the plastic cadians are, but still a bit exaggerated.
What do you think?
That looks really good! I like the way you've kept the design faithful to the original whilst also adding your own spin. Female figures were something we really wanted to do but we couldn't manage it this time around whilst keeping everything multipart and compatible with each other. We would definitely like to explore the possibility of female sculpts in the future if the Kickstarter and launch allows us the flexibility to do so, although the reality of designing in HIPS means it wouldn't be in the near future.
monders wrote: Judge, Bob - Just to be clear, where do you stand on the state of the contractor sculpts?
Oh, I love them! Not only fantastic sculpts but excellent proportions! The equipment shows that a lot of research went into real-life examples and obviously a lot of military personnel were interviewed about what type of equipment would be functional in battle. And the gun is just perfect.
It's like an insta-bitz box on a sprue! I can't number the amount of times I have thought "ooh, I just need a long pretty bit of plastic to spruce this up a bit". Seriously guys, this is pretty darn awesome.
I may not be into the minis themselves but I will definitely be getting some of these when they show up for sale. I bet we are going to see some pretty good terrain spring up from this stuff!
I agree! This is a great accessories sprue. It's a little overshadowed by Mantic's phenomenal Deadzone plastic terrain (and if this had come out three years ago I'd be ten time as excited), but this sprue (and the many more than I will buy) will get a lot of use over everyone's games tables.
monders wrote: Judge, Bob - Just to be clear, where do you stand on the state of the contractor sculpts?
Oh, I love them! Not only fantastic sculpts but excellent proportions! The equipment shows that a lot of research went into real-life examples and obviously a lot of military personnel were interviewed about what type of equipment would be functional in battle. And the gun is just perfect.
It's like an insta-bitz box on a sprue! I can't number the amount of times I have thought "ooh, I just need a long pretty bit of plastic to spruce this up a bit". Seriously guys, this is pretty darn awesome.
I may not be into the minis themselves but I will definitely be getting some of these when they show up for sale. I bet we are going to see some pretty good terrain spring up from this stuff!
I agree! This is a great accessories sprue. It's a little overshadowed by Mantic's phenomenal Deadzone plastic terrain (and if this had come out three years ago I'd be ten time as excited), but this sprue (and the many more than I will buy) will get a lot of use over everyone's games tables.
Heck I can't wait to see what combining them yields.
No discussion on the rules yet?! :( I guess I'm one of the few that values rules over models or the universe. A game can look and sound as cool as heck but if it plays like garbage what's the point?
Seems like the game could have been 5-6 models a side instead of 20-30 since the squad leader is the only one who really matters (for facing, line of sight, etc.), and the grunts are basically wound counters?
I like the movement stat, the VS roll is an interesting idea but also feels like an attempt to do 40kStr vs Toughness without a chart, instead of an original thought?
Sad to see it's D6 with roll to hit, roll to wound ("penetrate")...two rolls for combat resolution always feels tiring. The whole Armor, Mass, and Fortitude seems like one stat too many?
The flagship feature seems to be the suppression tokens, which are neat and remind me (visually) of Epic 40k. Stacking STs to prevent activation seems cool, as does keeping a unit suppressed until you can get in close and finish them off.
Although does the game tend to bog down into both sides "camping"? And then a lot of weight is put on failing activation rolls, and how much effect that can have?
I'd be interested to see a game being played, is there a video or full report anywhere?
bosky, the D6 Generation podcast sat down with yakface for an hour to talk about the rules, you can listen to it starting 1 hour and 24 minutes in at this link:
Manchu wrote: How did you get that grunts are wound counters?
Because they don't do anything but soak up wounds? In a squad with 5 grunts and a squad leader the squad leader could have 5x the firepower and it'd function the same. The individual grunt equipment doesn't seem to vary. They aren't used for individual line of sight or facing. All the suppression interaction and activation is done from the squad leader. Or did I miss something?
RiTides wrote: bosky, the D6 Generation podcast sat down with yakface for an hour to talk about the rules, you can listen to it starting 1 hour and 24 minutes in at this link:
Manchu wrote: How did you get that grunts are wound counters?
Because they don't do anything but soak up wounds? In a squad with 5 grunts and a squad leader the squad leader could have 5x the firepower and it'd function the same. The individual grunt equipment doesn't seem to vary. They aren't used for individual line of sight or facing. All the suppression interaction and activation is done from the squad leader. Or did I miss something?
Model-by-model LOS and facing determinations in a squad-based game? Sounds awful. Seems like the models in MEdge contribute to firepower in addition to unit strength.
Manchu wrote: Model-by-model LOS and facing determinations in a squad-based game? Sounds awful. Seems like the models in MEdge contribute to firepower in addition to unit strength.
Yes I agree, 28mm is in some ways a bad fit for larger skirmish or mass battle as a result, imho. 15mm combined bases work well for this reason. Basically having five squads of 6 models on the table because they look neat, not because they are functionally needed.
Manchu wrote: I think 28mm does skirmish really, really well. Bolt Action is my favorite miniatures game.
Yes for sure, but I don't think 30 models is skirmish though.
EDIT: Listening to the podcast, developer says it's meant to be a somewhat new niche of "squad based skirmish". So the squads could probably be a single model, but they chose to do squads instead.
Also yakface pointed out that Command Points automatically increase each turn, which I think is a great idea, much like mana crystals in Hearthstone. Sort of lends a tension and escalating conflict feel to the game.
bosky wrote: No discussion on the rules yet?! :( I guess I'm one of the few that values rules over models or the universe. A game can look and sound as cool as heck but if it plays like garbage what's the point?
Seems like the game could have been 5-6 models a side instead of 20-30 since the squad leader is the only one who really matters (for facing, line of sight, etc.), and the grunts are basically wound counters?
I like the movement stat, the VS roll is an interesting idea but also feels like an attempt to do 40kStr vs Toughness without a chart, instead of an original thought?
Sad to see it's D6 with roll to hit, roll to wound ("penetrate")...two rolls for combat resolution always feels tiring. The whole Armor, Mass, and Fortitude seems like one stat too many?
The flagship feature seems to be the suppression tokens, which are neat and remind me (visually) of Epic 40k. Stacking STs to prevent activation seems cool, as does keeping a unit suppressed until you can get in close and finish them off.
Although does the game tend to bog down into both sides "camping"? And then a lot of weight is put on failing activation rolls, and how much effect that can have?
I'd be interested to see a game being played, is there a video or full report anywhere?
Great questions!
Having the models in a unit actually 'matter' vs. streamlining mechanics to keep things simple for squad-based gameplay, but I can assure you that the other members of the unit play a major role in how the unit behaves. Just a few major things about them:
1) Each model can theoretically have its own weapon loadout and those weapons each fire distinctly.
2) The range of the unit is measured from the closest model to whatever you're measuring to (including holding an objective), so the placement of the models changes the range of the unit.
3) Units are in/out of cover based on whether 1/2 of the unit's models are in cover or not. So if you have some models in/out of cover in the unit (like some models in the unit out of cover holding an objective), when it comes time to choose casualties, you have a tough choice of whether to pull the guys in cover (thereby risking the unit no longer being in cover) or pulling the guys out of cover (and risk being out of range of the objective, etc).
4) If a unit leader happens to be killed (which can happen with sniper weapons, etc), you have to pick another model in the unit to become squad leader.
5) When shooting, the offensive characteristics of each model matter (so the SKL characteristic of each firer matters, for example).
6) When being shot at, the most common characteristic across the unit matters...so if you have a unit with split characteristics, the most common amongst the unit is the one that is used.
Awesome yakface, thanks for the response, nice to hear it straight from the horses mouth
I was just basing my assumptions off the rules preview (such as all equipment being the same in that one). Good to know that individual models do have a purpose and effect!
In fact I like the art far more than I like the figs tbh.
I have no issues with the color, composition or the style. In fact while you knocked it for not being up to "today's standards" I would argue that many things prodiced today suck or are overinflated. Retro has it's own charm and I don's see the art as being an issue that should effect anyone's desire to play the game.
Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?
A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.
darrkespur wrote: That looks really good! I like the way you've kept the design faithful to the original whilst also adding your own spin. Female figures were something we really wanted to do but we couldn't manage it this time around whilst keeping everything multipart and compatible with each other. We would definitely like to explore the possibility of female sculpts in the future if the Kickstarter and launch allows us the flexibility to do so, although the reality of designing in HIPS means it wouldn't be in the near future.
I'm glad you like it. I might have a go at a Karist Trooper next.
bosky wrote: No discussion on the rules yet?! :( I guess I'm one of the few that values rules over models or the universe. A game can look and sound as cool as heck but if it plays like garbage what's the point?
Seems like the game could have been 5-6 models a side instead of 20-30 since the squad leader is the only one who really matters (for facing, line of sight, etc.), and the grunts are basically wound counters?
I like the movement stat, the VS roll is an interesting idea but also feels like an attempt to do 40kStr vs Toughness without a chart, instead of an original thought?
Sad to see it's D6 with roll to hit, roll to wound ("penetrate")...two rolls for combat resolution always feels tiring. The whole Armor, Mass, and Fortitude seems like one stat too many?
The flagship feature seems to be the suppression tokens, which are neat and remind me (visually) of Epic 40k. Stacking STs to prevent activation seems cool, as does keeping a unit suppressed until you can get in close and finish them off.
Although does the game tend to bog down into both sides "camping"? And then a lot of weight is put on failing activation rolls, and how much effect that can have?
I'd be interested to see a game being played, is there a video or full report anywhere?
Those other models in a unit are especially important, even if you happen to equip them the same. First for aesthetics and feel, it just looks better with a few more models around. Second, rules wise, Yakface has covered most of the points. But extra models means more shots in a unit, but also means that you can affect your opponent lethally, and vice versa, without completely removing a tactical option from the game until the point where the unit is wiped out.
Individual model based skirmish games are a vastly different thing than the small sized unit rules they have here. I like what they've made quite a bit.
It's a successor to 40k in the best way, an evolution of the style of the game, without going overboard.
Suppression actually helps limit the death star effect where everything in an army always aims for one thing on the enemy list in an attempt to destroy a single unit entirely first, because that's all that matters, ignoring the rest of the enemy army unless they can't shoot the focus. Now, having units put down fire on a wide range of units could potentially setup bigger future gains, instead of a few random deaths. It also deals with the reversed problem, which was a game that had devolved into an endless series of super powered assaults.
Then, objectives help get things mixed up even further.
Jimsolo wrote: Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?
A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.
So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.
Anyway, sorry for going offtopic, just an observation. To answer your question the universe is not overly complicated and if you've played Mass Effect 3, that's where the similarities are from.
A long time ago there was a human diaspora from Earth using sublight engine technology and generation ships, which spread the human race pretty thin and generated quite a few human colonies on distant, disconnected worlds. I believe the reason for the abandonment of Earth was released but I don't remember what it was.
Fast forward a couple hundred (maybe a thousand years) and a humany colony ship discovers a "gate" of sorts that leads to a nether/warp like second dimension where travel between stars can be completed in a matter of hours, days or weeks. They realized this system of "tunnels" spread throughout the Spiral Arm of the Milky Way and that it could be traversed fairly easily given enough power. They dubbed it: The Cybel Network. Thus began a golden age for humanity. Colonies were rediscovered, new species encountered and the energy (dark matter) being produced by the cybel was canned, stored, shipped and used to power the engines, weapons and generators of a new interplanetary empire. (Cybel energy is slightly sinister as it's highly radioactive and volatile. Think Plutonium or Uranium in its radioactive isotopes. So it's heavily regulated)
Fast forward another couple hundred years and the center of Cybel network destabilizes and goes kaboom, the chain reaction sweeping through the tunnels and spreading out into realspace in the form of a titanic wave or storm, named the Maelstrom. The Maelstrom tears worlds asunder and appears to be a gravitational anomaly, moving towards centers of largest mass and accelerating the closer it gets. Now people and aliens scramble to flee the Maelstrom's edge. Save the Karist, who believe that those who are ready, when consumed by the energy of the maelstrom, are freed from this mortal coil and ascend to a higher plane. The Epirian corporation is just that. A mega corporation with interests throughout the Spiral Arm still trying to make a quick buck in the face of imminent catastrophe. The Broken is pretty much everyone else left on the Edge, aliens, pirates, renegades and anarchists. There are two other revealed factions but we don't have any information about them yet.
The reason I compare MEdge to ME3 is because of the similarity between the "relays" even though they aren't a physical thing and the explosions, being proliferated by the network connecting the stars, the "that which brough us propsperity is our downfall" kind of feeling.
This is a discussion forum, so discuss away. It's on topic since story is part of the game.
Having good rules, good story, and good miniatures aren't impossible, just difficult.
And jumping to the "nobody's perfect" defense is just as weak of an argument as asking for perfection, which nobody was.
Usually what happens is you release, then update things over time after release, much like every other game company has done to their games. And you don't be afraid to do that updating as it is needed. For as much as people has a problem with say, GW's endless updating and retcon, that is just what you need to do.
Take a look at Infinity's earliest models, a lot of them were garbage. Now? Well, everyone seems to only remember their prettiest newest sculpts.
It also takes years of development for a game's story and sculpts to reach mature and almost every game still on the market has had that time, I'm willing to see where this one goes.
Vertrucio wrote: Take a look at Infinity's earliest models, a lot of them were garbage. Now? Well, everyone seems to only remember their prettiest newest sculpts.
It also takes years of development for a game's story and sculpts to reach mature and almost every game still on the market has had that time, I'm willing to see where this one goes.
I agree with everything you're saying RE: updating and making things better
But I remember nothing but praise for Infinity's sculpts, even from the early beginning and all the "garbage" ones. I remember lots of words about "questionable design decisions" which I've also heard here about the Epirian contractors, but as far as sculpting goes, no one seems to be trashing the quality of details.
The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.
In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.
In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.
We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.
That's why the Epirian drones are fairly limited in independent thought and require support from human handlers. Of course, with the Maelstrom disrupting interstellar travel and communication, it's becoming harder and harder to police the emergence of AI...
darrkespur wrote: We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.
That's annoying. Yes, Dune did it. Yes, 40k did it. That does not mean you need to do it too.
darrkespur wrote: We have an explanation for the Maelstrom, we just don't want to reveal all the mystery just yet...
Is the explanation "scientists ruined everything (again)"? Because that's really getting old.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.
In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.
We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.
That's why the Epirian drones are fairly limited in independent thought and require support from human handlers. Of course, with the Maelstrom disrupting interstellar travel and communication, it's becoming harder and harder to police the emergence of AI...
That's cool. I'm glad you've thought about the singularity in there, and it does make the drone handlers make more sense. But I think what I'm saying is - with a label of "hard sci fi" I'd expect that the conclusion would follow from the preconditions, whereas with Maelstrom's Edge it seems more like the conclusion (the type of desired setting and so on) has been set and then justified after the fact, if you see what I mean? I guess this is more or less inevitable given the nature of the game, so maybe it's solely the label of "hard" (though I'm not sure you ever said "hard" specifically) that is throwing me off.
I kinda hope you'll eventually be able to reveal an answer in-setting to whether ascension is real and stuff like that.
AlexHolker wrote: That's annoying. Yes, Dune did it. Yes, 40k did it. That does not mean you need to do it too.
They do need to explain it somehow. We might see the results of singularity within our lifetimes, and when it happens it will probably at the very least change human social structure a great deal. If you want to say, well, it's just like now, you probably need an explanation.
ETA: though singularity was just an example of a thing that is likely to change our societies a lot. It wasn't meant to be the one thing that would cause a change!
insaniak wrote: It was done because an explanation was needed for the lack of evolution of AI.
You don't need an explanation for why true AI was never developed, because true AI is not merely an evolutionary progression from traditional computing. Crunching bigger numbers faster does not automatically translate into a computer being able to determine for itself which numbers need crunching.
insaniak wrote: It was done because an explanation was needed for the lack of evolution of AI.
You don't need an explanation for why true AI was never developed, because true AI is not merely an evolutionary progression from traditional computing.
Maybe not in reality. But in most peoples' minds, I think it kind of is.
One of the tenants of hard scifi was exposing people to those realities and making them an interesting part of the setting. Becoming both thought provoking and entertaining. Not just to parrot what are now very tired tropes.
I actually didn't realized they had reused the trope of big AI war, so no more AI routine.
I can't say I'm a fan of that twist either. I wouldn't have expected that given the drones previewed and I know that GW didn't invent the trope either but it's another feather in the cap that makes Maelstrom's Edge similar to 40k (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one) and I'm not really sure how I feel on that without seeing the whole background myself.
warboss wrote: (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)
I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.
warboss wrote: (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)
I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.
It's more than a passing similarity in that example.
warboss wrote: (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one)
I suspect that if you compare any two scifi settings, you'll be able to find at least one or two points of similarity if you're willing to be that broad with them.
I don't think the similarities between Maelstrom and 40k are very broad. They are close enough that the initial Kickstarter synopsis (granted, my only exposure to the setting!) made me wonder if this was supposed to be a fan effort to "fix" 40k, rather than an original setting. A "golden age of exploration" followed by cataclysm and backsliding (to the point of leaving large parts of our past shrouded in mystery), a disastrous war with AI in our past, a present rife with more war as religous fanatics battle it out with hardcore uber-military types willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of everyone, and ominous aliens threaten us all, while a gaping wound in space spews forth unknown and unknowable terrors to traumatize a horrified galaxy, where everyone and everything faces a future of uncertain survival?
I don't think that's broadly similar to 40k, it seems very similar to 40k. Just without psykers. Really, the only thing that seemed super different was the aesthetics of the armored models, which looked pretty similar to a bunch of the minis I've seen from Infinity.
I'm not saying that it's a rip-off, just that it seems very close. I'm less interested in the rules, or the minis, and far more interested in what's supposed to make this world more interesting than any other sci-fi setting.
Are the books sourcebooks or novels? And are they available as e-books or just in print? I'd potentially be interested in checking one out.
Jimsolo wrote: Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?
A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.
So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.
I don't have unreasonable standards for a perfect game, and it doesn't sound like anyone you're referring to does either; we all just have different aspects we consider important to a game we're willing to spend money on.
Furthermore, I don't think everyone is requiring greatness in each aspect. I don't think a desire for quality miniatures, functional rules, and an engaging backstory is unreasonable at all, or an 'unreachable' benchmark. Even if it is, I (and it sounds like the other two groups of people you mentioned) am willing to accept a loss in some categories in exchange for 'slightly-above-mediocrity' quality in the one we focus on.
Jimsolo wrote: Are the books sourcebooks or novels? And are they available as e-books or just in print? I'd potentially be interested in checking one out.
There are two novels out (Kindle format at the moment, unless you happen to be at Salute in the UK today, where the only physical copies are). One of the authors links to a free sample in his sig. Reviews from people on Dakka who have read them seem quite positive; I'm hoping for dead tree versions, myself.
Perception is an interesting thing. I don't personally see the link between 40k's Warp (an alternate dimension, populated with daemons & god-like malignant entities with distinct personalities and agendas) and the Maelstrom (which appears to be a cataclysmic explosion that is propagating through both normal space and the interstellar shortcuts of the cybel network), but it's come up a few times. I haven't been exposed to any information beyond what has been publicly posted (I haven't read the novels, or even the free sample, yet), but I have read all of publicly-posted information, apparently to a very different conclusion than others.
If part of the goal of the "mystery" behind the Maelstrom is to get people talking about it, I guess it's working.
Jimsolo wrote: present rife with more war as religous fanatics battle it out with hardcore uber-military types willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of everyone
Not quite, more religious fanatics, one branch of which is really keen on the hard way (the priests would rather convert everyone peacefully) fighting a corporation that is holding onto some worlds while they have resources to go, then often abandoning them and whoever is left that isn't of value to the maelstrom and that world's end. So not really at all uber-military types, give the explanations of the corporation a bit more of a read and you'll get that the majority of their soldiers are just guys who are trying to work to get their family off world, or factory line men given rifles, armour and a weeks training and pushed in there.
According to the creators, think "star wars" for the level of alien integration in society, more than 40K EVERY ALIEN IS EVIL EVER. Sometimes the aliens will be bad, yeah, but so will the people. So it really isn't like that...
Jimsolo wrote: while a gaping wound in space spews forth unknown and unknowable terrors to traumatize a horrified galaxy, where everyone and everything faces a future of uncertain survival?
Well no, the wound is expanding and destroying things in its expansion. Not that the thing expands, stops, spews out horrors then continues. Honestly, your posts make it sound like you haven't tried overly to familiarise yourself with the background before hitting the keyboard. Hope this helped clear some things up
motyak wrote: Honestly, your posts make it sound like you haven't tried overly to familiarise yourself with the background before hitting the keyboard. Hope this helped clear some things up
Sorry amigo. My entire impression is based on the Kickstarter synopsis. (I said that in an earlier draft of my post--hadn't realized I'd deleted it.) Generally speaking, I don't seek out further experiences if I've had a less-than-favorable first impression of something. However, since I have a great deal of respect for Yakface, I started inquiring in these threads because I'm genuinely curious if the setting is more original than it appears at first glance.
Just because something is similar doesn't make it bad, by the way. (On first blush, Alphas appears to be a rip-off of Heroes, but is the vastly superior show.)
Still, I appreciate you pointing out a couple aspects of the lore that aren't mentioned in the KS summary. You've certainly given me enough reason to check out one of the novels.
Janthkin wrote: I don't personally see the link between 40k's Warp (an alternate dimension, populated with daemons & god-like malignant entities with distinct personalities and agendas) and the Maelstrom (which appears to be a cataclysmic explosion that is propagating through both normal space and the interstellar shortcuts of the cybel network), but it's come up a few times.
I don't see it either.
The comparison between the Cybel Network and the Webway, though...
I've read book one and am a ways through book 2. So far the fluff is OK, it's not NY Times bestseller list stuff but it's pretty solid. I'll form more of an opinion when I've finished it all the way but so far I've liked it. I presume at some point a foundation will be laid for why the Karists HQ's ultimate ability is to become a suicide bomber. I suppose he considers it ascending.
So far as the minis, I pledged in very early but will see how they develop. The Karists are OK, but the Epirians don't really do it for me for reasons that have already been discussed. However, I find it reasonable that they look better when with the rest of their force because all the blocky elements tie them together, so I'll wait to see the rest of the force. Ultimately I'm going to support the project anyway so it probably doesn't matter. Maybe I'll do headswaps, maybe I'll leave the shoulderpads off, whatever.
I'm excited about the Broken; because all sorts of weird aliens sound pretty neat. I also like that there is going to clearly be a wide scope of decor, so to speak, and am very excited about making junction boxes and so on into what looks like a set of a Firefly episode.
I think the rifles look too big for the Epirians but I have firsthand experience of why that's appropriate I got some sniper rifles a few years back from Maxmini that were accurately scaled, and they weren't usable with 40k minis; they simply all looked too weedy. A 50 cal Barrett at that scale done correctly has a barrel barely thicker than a needle. As shown they seem to be a good compromise of being distinct when ranked while not looking like 40k-everything-is-in-canned-ham-caliber weapons.
The images of the Karists next to the Space Marine and Cadian make me wonder how well a average-at-best painter would be able to do with the Karist's armor; what merely looks pretty good when blown for large shots up reveals itself to be an exceptional paintjob when shown with the other minis, with very fine detailing.
Also, kinda a stupid question that maybe got answered and I missed it; does the glow from the weapons from the Karists need to be pink/purple? Clearly not, since the away team colors are teal.
The comparison between the Cybel Network and the Webway, though...
That might be because the comparison is between the Maelstrom and the Warp and not the Cybel Network and the Webway (which is related and also similar).
The ME setting is similar to the 40K setting and it is similar to the Dune setting. All three are also very similar to real life history.
We had an age of discovery and enlightenment resulting in science and reason emerging from Greece and the construction of the Library of Alexandria. Then we had fires, plaques, and other cataclysmic events that resulted in knowledge and progress being lost, then we had an age of darkness and strive during the Middle Ages where everybody fought everybody and it took an external threat in the form of them Muslims conquering Israel and parts of Europe to unite them and fight under one banner but factions remained. Then we had another age of enlightment, some may even say a renaissance of sort.
The same tropes will appear again and again because life did it first and there will never be an original story, just reimaginations of previous stories who were inspired by real life events and concerns.
Ouze wrote: What is the prior trope for the Webway / tunnel system in space? I don't know of one but I'm sure it exists.
I think the basic answer would probably be wormholes. Fiction wise I think Stargate could be a strong contender for inspiring the webway, and we could probably include the trope of "portals" if we would get broad enough.
I would keep in mind that the webway was artificially constructed whereas the cybel network is a natural phenomenon (if I read the novels right). The webway keeps the warp out, wheras traveling in the cybel network could expose you to the dangers within.
Jimsolo wrote: Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?
A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.
Yes, please discuss it. I've read some of it, but I am mostly waiting to read their novels to decide how I feel about the background.
(Currently, I'm just interpreting it as a rough draft for The Dreaming Void, which features an expanding void at the center of the Galaxy threatening to eat everything, corporate intrigue, religious fanatics, preparations to flee or fight, psychic powers in the void, and so on. To quote a strip joint bouncer, "That's close enough.")
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HiveFleetPlastic wrote: The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.
In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.
First of all, what does the singularity even mean to you? How will it change everything?
Second, most settings tend to downplay the really fundamental changes to society so that customers who aren't into bleep bloop can relate to them.
Third, we are only seeing snapshots of the working class in combat against militant extremists. For all we know, the rich could live like Jupiter Ascending villains or Like Stargate villains, completely separated from the trials of life their inferiors face every day.
Fourth, those robots and space bats look a bit more awesome than the ones that live on present day Earth.
Gates of Antares tried to go with huge societal changes, and we ended up with ugly rockmen. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: The weirdest part about the setting for me is how familiar everything is. For the most part, it seems like you could take the combatants from the box, say - okay, this takes place 15 years from the present day, on Earth - and it would work fine.
In the actual world we are looking at singularity probably occurring in less than a hundred years, but in Maelstrom's Edge we find ourselves thousands of years in the future and everything socially and technologically seems much the same as today, just with interstellar travel added on.
We are going to explore this a bit more as we hopefully expand the universe. There was a singularity in the past that resulted in hundreds of years of war between the AIs and the free people of the galaxy, where countless billions died. When the war ended and the AIs were destroyed, it was decided that too prevent this ever happening again, the computational power of robots and computers would be heavily policed and any emergent AI destroyed before they could get too powerful.
That's why the Epirian drones are fairly limited in independent thought and require support from human handlers. Of course, with the Maelstrom disrupting interstellar travel and communication, it's becoming harder and harder to police the emergence of AI...
Ouze wrote: What is the prior trope for the Webway / tunnel system in space? I don't know of one but I'm sure it exists.
Historically? Wouldn't that be a system of rivers or safe trading routes that allowed distant civilizations to trade? Maybe the railroad network later on, too?
The "AI turned out bad, warred with humanity, we barely survived and now we don't allow it" trope originated with Dune, AFAIK, and 40k and MEdge both use it. The Terminator movies also dip from the same well, and I'm sure there are others. Given that Dune is like the LotR of sci-fi, influencing nearly everything in the genre that's come since, I don't think I can count it as something MEdge copies from 40k. I don't perceive it as a significant element in 40k (it's not something I ever think of when I generally contemplate on the background), because 40k is so far from being an Sci-Fi setting, for my money. It's this incredibly overblown gothic space opera, which I love, but is substantially different in tone and priorities. While I don't think MEdge is genuinely "hard" Sci-Fi, I do think it's harder, by comparison, and its take on how we got from there to here is a little more coherent. And within that context, an explanation of why there isn't AI is a good thing to have.
I think there's a little bit of similarity between the Webway and the Cybel Network, but not much more than there would be between any two systems conceptualized off wormhole travel. I don't see anything like The Warp in MEdge.
There is a bit of similarity in terms of a setting where conflict is rife and every faction at odds, but I like that MEdge has more room for intra-factional battles. Two SM Chapters fighting has got to be something extraordinary and bizarre. Two different factions of the Epirian Corporate structure shooting it out could just represent a hostile takeover, or two Karist groups, a schism. I also think the nature of the threat(s) to humanity is distinct and has a different tone between the two settings.
Jimsolo wrote: Is it appropriate to talk about the background in this thread, or the other one?
A miniatures game could have the best rules and most gorgeous models in the world, but without an engaging backstory, I'm not going to be interested in playing it. I'm a little unclear (and uncertain) about the setting for Maelstrom.
So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.
I don't see that as an unreachable standard at all. I think different people are just providing excellent examples of how they have varying priorities, and you need to try to hit all of those areas of you want to appeal to a wide swath of miniature gaming fandom.
I think Lego and Yak and the guys are well aware of that, as fans themselves. Solid rules are important to them, so they have Jon on it working his ass off from the ground up on rules with the same exacting attention to detail and clarity that he's exerted for years helping make 40k more clear for tournaments which have used his work (and that's a lot, given that GW used some of his work in the 5th ed official FAQs, as I recall). Great minis, plastic multiparts in the best material, are important to them, so they've spent literally years working on making those happen, traveling to China and everyplace else they need to, learning about plastics production and distribution, meeting and learning from other companies and creators, etc. Terrain is important to them, and they're aware that making terrain yourself is both fun and one of the cheapest parts of the hobby, so they came up with the idea of the terrain detailing sprue to support and facilitate that. Good, compelling background is important to them, so they got actual published fiction writers (who happen to have backgrounds and education in the hard sciences) involved with and excited about the world, so they can produce actual books rather than just the kind of back-of-a-napkin scribblings one too-often sees in game supplements. Not saying it's Hugo-worthy, but it's important to a lot of gamers, so they're treating it as a high priority and investing real effort in it.
Obviously not everything's going to be the best version of something ever done, and different parts are going to be more or less appealing to different folks. But they're certainly putting in the effort to try for high quality in every area.
Just to clarify, the Maelstrom is more like a wildfire spreading through space, destroying everything it touches. It isn't something you can traverse or travel in, its a great big space energy fireball. Though, of course the Karists don't think you actually die if you are consumed by it with the right mindset..
The cybel network is a naturally occurring phenomenon and is a web of dark energy filaments which is binding the galaxy together (a current unanswered question in modern science). We just took that idea and ran with it.
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warboss wrote: I can't say I'm a fan of that twist either. I wouldn't have expected that given the drones previewed and I know that GW didn't invent the trope either but it's another feather in the cap that makes Maelstrom's Edge similar to 40k (the warp bleeding into realspace and threatening the galaxy with some cults worshiping it being the first one) and I'm not really sure how I feel on that without seeing the whole background myself.
I wouldn't worry too much, it is a footnote in the history of the galaxy. We have no AI factions and have no immediate plans for any, and none of us liked having AI companions and the other trappings involved with it in a far future setting. Make no mistake, this isn't some sort of technological dark age, they just don't develop that particular area of technology.
So I've seen this, and I've seen "If a miniatures game has the best minis and the best backstory but if it doesn't have good rules I'm not interested" and I've seen yet other people saying "If a miniatures game has the best rules and the best backstory but if it doesn 't have good minis I'm not interested" and I'm over here just honestly curious where you all are getting these unreachable standards for a perfect miniatures game because so far no game has been perfect and I don't expect any to ever be (although I do hold my games to a pretty decent standard I think) and yet we are all still here, playing and arguing about miniature games.
I don't have unreasonable standards for a perfect game, and it doesn't sound like anyone you're referring to does either; we all just have different aspects we consider important to a game we're willing to spend money on.
Furthermore, I don't think everyone is requiring greatness in each aspect. I don't think a desire for quality miniatures, functional rules, and an engaging backstory is unreasonable at all, or an 'unreachable' benchmark. Even if it is, I (and it sounds like the other two groups of people you mentioned) am willing to accept a loss in some categories in exchange for 'slightly-above-mediocrity' quality in the one we focus on.
Everyone has their own "thing". The background for this doesn't inspire me or interest me in the slightest (sorry guys!). If the figures are good in a game then that'll often work well enough for me to purchase it, but here, they aren't enough to carry the package. (I like the smaller ones of the Armoured guys while the Larger armoured guys and Epicurean Drones are ok - the rest I can pass on completely). If I have no interest in the background or most of the figures (hello, WarPath, Kings of War) then good enough rules can still get me in if I can proxy my preferred miniature figures. Because I forge my own narrative when I play games. I very happily play Kings of War with very few Mantic models involved, relative to other manufacturers (mostly the Undead, and some Ogres) and no thought given to the world of "Mantica".
If the rules turn out to be good here (and they look to be the most promising part of the package for me) and there's a way to proxy Space Marines and such in that works well, then I'll happily play it. At this point, I'd use Imperial Guard Models with Epicurean stats instead of the actual official models. The other guys' models might get a look in as a new alien faction or something, but I'd have to proxy those flying fish out with DE RazorWings or something that looked good.
Having read the kickstarter page and browsed the rules I'm interested but not necessarily sold. I love all the Karist designs. The corporation guys I think look pretty mediocre on the whole aside from the Drones which look fantastic.
The rules look okay, I always find it hard to tell from a read through if I'll like them. I'm slightly disappointed it's a d6 system with multiple combat resolution rolls due to personal preferences, although the initial hit rolls seem to have a certain elegance involved.
The background doesn't grip me. I'm surprised by some of the design comments. I think there's plenty of gritty sci fi with shades of grey on the market. That's not to say I'm not interested in more but it's not perhaps a huge draw. Realistic and believable are a different kettle of fish. I think it's practically impossible to do and include alien races, ftl, strange dark matter energy webs and giant galaxy ending explosions. Fun, especially fun visuals and abilities tend to be a big factor in wargames,leading to more outlandish settings. It's possible I misread this and you simply mean more internally consistent in which case go nuts.
I am slightly puzzled by the Maelstrom. If it's impossible to escape in any meaningful way what is the point of the conflict? I know, mankind (and presumably aliens) have a drive to survive, to fight the inevitable and maybe even make their last days comfortable, but as a player if everything is going to be swallowed whole then... Meh, I'm not that invested I guess? Also if the Karist believe that the Maelstrom ascends you to a new plane of existence why forcibly fight to convert people? Presumably there's more background here, no doubt only believers go to space heaven, but it just seems that they should all be flying headlong into the damn space storm. I'm also confused by the statement that the background will be dealing with real human problems, or problems we face now... As generally that's what fiction does, especially science fiction as a whole. Again maybe it's a reading comprehension fail.
As I say I'm interested, especially as it's a dakka project, though I admit I know nothing about the users and mods involved or their credentials.
I suppose I've been pretty negative in this thread, so let me share what I like about the minis:
The Drones I love. They look like mass-produced robots that are perfect for many settings, with classic ducted fans or robo-spider legs. They are spot on for what I would look for in a drone army. (I'll find a way to get treads on some of them eventually, too.)
The Karist Enclave Troopers are my favorite of the human units. They have a nicely armored look with optional tabletop shoulderpads for those who want them (I do). Their helmets look like they are full of sensors. I can easily inagine the wee-oomp wee-oomp sound they'd make scanning a room. Their weapons look suitably sci fi for any video game.
The Karist Tempest Elites have a sharper look to them. Fully armored, they look less human and more dangerous. Their helmets are very robotic and intimidating. They work better in my mind as cyborgs or robots. Looking at the sprues, the wrists might be difficult to fix without some detail loss, but not insurmountable. The weapons are frightfully huge.
The Minnows are very alien. As bizarre, gravity-defying cosmozoans, they are the love-them-or-hate-them unit. I love them. They look otherworldly. They will probably look good at other scales, too. In Attack Wing, they could easily pass for the kind of entities that try to mate with the Enterprise, for example.
The Scarecrow looks like a decent robot, but I haven't seen any good pictures of it yet.
The Epirians look pretty good as mooks. The sprue comes with 3 space assault rifes, 2 space shotguns, 2 space Ahnuld guns, and a helmetless head with a scouter, so it is a goldmine for conversions. The hands are designed to hold the weapons intact, which means it should be pretty easy to give them some leftover guns from the WGF survivor sprue for variety/scale, and if the shoulder pads are really unpleasant in real life a few arm swaps would make the kit a hit (for me). I wonder how WGF Shock Troop arms would look on them...
You can escape, but only away from the Maelstrom which appears to have originated from out the center of the Galaxy and it is moving out towards the edge. Since the Galaxy is pretty much "flat" everybody has to flee using the Promethious style of running away. Eventually they will run out of places to run to and run out of planets for resources. There is only so much room in the Galaxy, and as systems are lost it will get crowded.
d-usa wrote: You can escape, but only away from the Maelstrom which appears to have originated from out the center of the Galaxy and it is moving out towards the edge. Since the Galaxy is pretty much "flat" everybody has to flee using the Promethious style of running away. Eventually they will run out of places to run to and run out of planets for resources. There is only so much room in the Galaxy, and as systems are lost it will get crowded.
Pretty much this.
The total destruction of everything isn't going to happen overnight. The Maelstrom has taken 1000 years to get as far as it has now. So people will flee away from it, in the hope that it might eventually stop by itself, or that someone might find a way to stop it. And in the meantime, people are pushed progressively further out along the spiral arm, into a more crowded space with ever-decreasing resources.
(Although as a minor point of correction, the Maelstom originated in the 'center' of human space, not the center of the galaxy...)
Okay so you can escape and this cataclysm has taken 1000 years to get to the point where the game is introduced to us. So it's a slow moving thing? Is there this desperate need for resources? If it takes a millenia to become large then is it now just another facet of the rise and fall of space nations/religions/megacorps? It doesn't seem that it would effect much in a person's lifetime, unless it's leaping forward randomly or humanity is now extremely long lived.
It does accelerate and decelerate. The planet that the first book on was intended to be terraformed and have years and years of good, solid, resource producing life, but the Maelstrom accelerated in that direction and all of a sudden the land was worth nothing, families who had spent money intending to make oodles from valuable, untouched land now couldn't afford the skyrocketing prices for a ship off the planet to safety, broke refugees with nothing but the clothes on their backs and whatever family they could save from Edge-side further gummed up the processes and took up more time and resources, and all of a sudden you have a struggling world where, just a few years ago, it was on the rise. But the terraforming was still under way, the corporation still wants as many resources as possible before the planet is lost, so they are going to squeeze as much as they can out before they bug out.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So far, only at Salute. I hope to buy some copies if they have any left over, but I'm afraid I may not be the first name on the list...
Ah. I put an ad up in a certain part of the website, hoping someone will see it and PM me. I'm hoping someone will buy a copy of both and ship them to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There has also been a whiff of accusation about the inspiration for Maelstrom's Edge that cannot safely be discussed in the original thread.
Scuzzy pointed out that the name, and possibly some of the thematic elements, of MEdge sound very similar to his own game, Vor: the Maelstrom. I am not familiar with that universe at all, so I can't really speak to the accuracy of his claims, but feel like they should be addressed. If you know much about Vor: TheM, please share your thoughts on the matter. Let's either validate the comparison or put a rightful end to it.
So, when I saw the KS announcement and the name, I actually thought it might be a relaunch of VOR, given the "Maelstrom" name. Watching the video, yeah, this reminds me a bit of VOR.
In VOR, planets get sucked into "the maelstrom", at which point they're sucked ever closer to their doom at the center of the maelstrom. Space within the maelstrom is not particularly pleasant, planets are semi-regularly destroyed by it.
I'm not able to suss what the Maelstrom is in MEdge, but a "giant space fireball" that destroys planets is vaguely reminiscent of VOR. I highly, highly doubt that MEdge intended to copy anything from VOR, but there are some similarities.
As for the rest of MEdge: it's not for me. Some of the Karist troops look sexy though.
The Scarecrows are a basically good idea executed poorly. The only good reason to have humanoid robots is to take advantage of their humanoid shape - either so they can be controlled like a human body would or so they can interact with the world like a human body would. Given the Epirians' use of a mental control interface and the likelihood that they would need to operate in built environments, both of these are useful features. But replacing one of the arms with a gun at the elbow interferes with that. The gun should either have replaced only the hand and not the entire forearm, so the wrist joint can be used to shoulder the weapon or turn it sideways if it needs to put weight on that arm, or it should have been in addition to the hand, like a vambrace-mounted weapon.
motyak wrote: It does accelerate and decelerate. The planet that the first book on was intended to be terraformed and have years and years of good, solid, resource producing life, but the Maelstrom accelerated in that direction and all of a sudden the land was worth nothing, families who had spent money intending to make oodles from valuable, untouched land now couldn't afford the skyrocketing prices for a ship off the planet to safety, broke refugees with nothing but the clothes on their backs and whatever family they could save from Edge-side further gummed up the processes and took up more time and resources, and all of a sudden you have a struggling world where, just a few years ago, it was on the rise. But the terraforming was still under way, the corporation still wants as many resources as possible before the planet is lost, so they are going to squeeze as much as they can out before they bug out.
Precisely this. The Maelstrom is pretty unpredictable. It can use cybel tunnels to spread must faster than in real space, it can be drawn forward by large cybel explosions on the Edge, and it moves faster in matter dense regions of space. Other times, it might unexplicably slow down in a particular area, or in rare circumstances even lap round a star system, cutting it off completely while the inhabitants await the end, watching a sky full of purple fire that is going to swallow them.
AlexHolker wrote: The Scarecrows are a basically good idea executed poorly. The only good reason to have humanoid robots is to take advantage of their humanoid shape - either so they can be controlled like a human body would or so they can interact with the world like a human body would.
Or, in the case of a large corporation, because someone high up in the foodchain decided it was a good idea and nobody at the time disliked their jobs enough to gainsay them.
There's also a bit of in-universe justification for the Scarecrow not being an ideally-designed combat unit, but I'm not sure if that's been covered officially yet.
AlexHolker wrote: The Scarecrows are a basically good idea executed poorly. The only good reason to have humanoid robots is to take advantage of their humanoid shape - either so they can be controlled like a human body would or so they can interact with the world like a human body would.
Or, in the case of a large corporation, because someone high up in the foodchain decided it was a good idea and nobody at the time disliked their jobs enough to gainsay them.
There's also a bit of in-universe justification for the Scarecrow not being an ideally-designed combat unit, but I'm not sure if that's been covered officially yet.
Doesn't the name kind of give it away? "Scarecrow"? As in "this doesn't really do the job as advertised but it does a good job of scaring away potential scavengers"? I can see the scarecrow bots being posted near Epirian interests and it doesn't matter how far they fall into disrepair (making them a cheap and elegant solution) because they were never meant to be top of the line fighting machines with the most efficient possible frame. They're meant to be scary, and shoulder mounted munitions and guns-for-hands screams stay away, to me. I'm sure it would cause the Epirians no amount of grief if the other sides ever figure out that the robots are just a bluff though. And maybe sometimes it's a double bluff. A scarecrow frame that really is efficiently designed, well maintained and armed to the teeth for protecting those sites that truly need it.
Trondheim wrote: What was the reasoning behind making this game? Dose the gaming world really need another doom & gloomy infused Sci fi game as this?
I've been wondering that for years. What will it take for wargaming to finally shake the, frankly overexploited, grimdark style of setting in favor of more "neutral" sci-fi universes, like Infinity's. It seems 9 out of 10 games are nihilistic affairs touching on the same limited range of tropes. I find it supremely dull at this point.
Trondheim wrote: What was the reasoning behind making this game? Dose the gaming world really need another doom & gloomy infused Sci fi game as this?
I've been wondering that for years. What will it take for wargaming to finally shake the, frankly overexploited, grimdark style of setting in favor of more "neutral" sci-fi universes, like Infinity's. It seems 9 out of 10 games are nihilistic affairs touching on the same limited range of tropes. I find it supremely dull at this point.
Good to hear I am not alone in thinking this, it would be nice with a setting not on the verge of complete meltdown. I wonder if the gaming culture is sometimes far too much into the whole end of the world type of mindsett, would go some way to explain why as you say 9 of 10 sci fi games looks and plays extremly dull. This is sadly looking to become one of those games just like the game MWGM launched
I think the Maelstrom could have been something that wasn't necessarily so universe-destroying as it was a game-changer. Perhaps it destroyed certain star systems or there was some perceived eventual threat, like global warming or something where total annihilation is not necessarily a given. It could still give rise to the Karists and set up for some massive wars are forces shift to deal with the new equation.
I feel in a lot of ways, MEdge is being positioned to take advantage of the fans leaving 40k. The environment feels similar so it's not such an alien switch for people who like the concept of 40k but don't like what the game has become. At least I know I am in that category, so I certainly can't be the only person. And in that regard, MEdge doesn't have to be an entirely new thing, just something that can grow into an entity better than what we've given with the currently dominant game.
I expect that for the folks on (or near) the Rim, the threat of Maelstrom is next to nothing, for them the main threat is from immigrants/refugees attempting to find new worlds to settle on. There are also likely to be functioning kingdoms, empires, republics, democracies, alien worlds etc, so It should be possible to have more non end of world games as well in the same setting....as the Rimmers follow the usual pattern of trying to take each others stuff.
bocatt wrote: Doesn't the name kind of give it away? "Scarecrow"? As in "this doesn't really do the job as advertised but it does a good job of scaring away potential scavengers"? I can see the scarecrow bots being posted near Epirian interests and it doesn't matter how far they fall into disrepair (making them a cheap and elegant solution) because they were never meant to be top of the line fighting machines with the most efficient possible frame. They're meant to be scary, and shoulder mounted munitions and guns-for-hands screams stay away, to me. I'm sure it would cause the Epirians no amount of grief if the other sides ever figure out that the robots are just a bluff though. And maybe sometimes it's a double bluff. A scarecrow frame that really is efficiently designed, well maintained and armed to the teeth for protecting those sites that truly need it.
The most efficient possible frame makes a better scarecrow than the Scarecrow does. A tankette is cheaper to manufacture, less prone to mechanical failure and even if it does fail, it hides it better. After all, a tankette sitting there with a thrown track still looks like a tankette, while a Scarecrow with a broken knee joint is flat on its face.
EarloftheNorth wrote: I expect that for the folks on (or near) the Rim, the threat of Maelstrom is next to nothing, for them the main threat is from immigrants/refugees attempting to find new worlds to settle on. There are also likely to be functioning kingdoms, empires, republics, democracies, alien worlds etc, so It should be possible to have more non end of world games as well in the same setting....as the Rimmers follow the usual pattern of trying to take each others stuff.
This is definitely true - the situation on worlds at the Edge is definitely grim, but due to the nature of the Maelstrom's expansion there are many worlds and even entire civilisations still unaffected by it, although the refugees streaming in from abandoned worlds are the first warning sign of what's to come. Although our setting is limited to one spiral arm of the galaxy, that's still a huge place with lots of worlds, and as we progress the game and storyline we hope to show you more of the setting, with alien worlds and other human cultures further away from the core of the galaxy still left to explore.
I think hopefully as people read more of our fiction and background, they'll find we've tried to make something that's a bit different. With any science fiction setting if you look hard enough you'll find elements that are shared with other universes (there's only so many ways you can travel faster than light, for instance), but I hope that we've made a setting that has so many influences and design elements that as people explore it they feel like it's a deep and unique place all of its own. The impending destruction of the Maelstrom is definitely a source of strife and conflict, but this was a motivating element we really wanted to include in our universe. A lot of wargames and battle-focused settings have very vague reasons for why factions were spending so much time in battle, and as a wargame is focused around combat, we felt that a central driving source of conflict would explain why our factions were fighting, as well as why you might have faction-on-faction battles.
That said, this central idea doesn't mean that everything is grimdark, or that there is no room for technological wonders or optimism. I'm a writer, and I want to have as many opportunities to tell good stories as I can. That requires a source of conflict (as conflict drives all good fiction), but also the freedom to explore as things move forward. We've only shown you a glimpse of what we've made already, and if things go well with our launch we hope to grow our game and universe to give more depth to our factions and the stories we tell. We also strive to make it internally consistent and rigorously designed. I hesitate to call it hard science fiction due to the expectations that brings on a setting - we still want to include a lot of things that make a space-based setting fun like FTL, aliens and advanced technology that doesn't exist yet, so we will be inventing some things that perhaps aren't entirely explained by current scientific laws. I'd probably call it 'harder' science fiction than what you see in many games, but not sacrificing the fun and potential of the stories we want to tell on the requirement to be ultra-factual.
We really appreciate everybody's comments and feedback, and we will be taking everything into account for the work we do on Maelstrom's Edge in the future. Creating a game is a long and complicated process, that involves many choices. We feel we've worked very hard to create the kind of game that we wanted to play - something with a deep setting with professional-quality fiction from the get-go, all-plastic, multipart models that each have several different weapon options and can be converted easily, whilst looking great on the tabletop, and a clear and fun tactical ruleset that featured 20-30 models a side but had a lot of the tactical choices you find in smaller skirmish games. We are very proud of what we've produced, and we feel that as a first-time company producing a kickstarter we've done everything we can to produce something of high quality that due to all the moulds and designs being done already, will get it into the hands of our backers as soon as possible. But we understand that there's a big range of things people are looking for in a game, from the style and size of the models to the type of setting and ruleset, and that the decisions and choices we've made in each case won't be everyone's cup of tea. We are very excited as gamers and fans by what we've created, and although it won't be the perfect fit for everyone's tastes, we hope that enough of you like what we've done that to give us a successful launch so that we can expand the world and miniatures of Maelstrom's Edge in the future.
Regarding the Epirians and their chaps, I find it interesting that I keep seeing people describe them as wearing "assless" or "buttless" chaps, as if that's something weird or different from regular chaps. They're just normal chaps. That's what chaps are. Most chaps just cover the legs and don't cover the buttocks. People wear chaps to protect the legs, and they make sense if the Epirians are working on planets with a lot of thick brush or undergrowth. I don't know why some people seem to think they are some weird thing.
Is there a way to pledge for a single set of minis? Or can we wait till retail? Frankly, the larger Karists are all that interest me. Nothing else about this does. I want to love it but, the only thing that is cool for me is the Maelstrom, the Drones, art, and the larger Karists as I said.
Maybe the books will do it for me but, as much as I want to back this my tastes are aligning up.
Stormwall wrote: Is there a way to pledge for a single set of minis? Or can we wait till retail? Frankly, the larger Karists are all that interest me. Nothing else about this does. I want to love it but, the only thing that is cool for me is the Maelstrom, the Drones, art, and the larger Karists as I said.
Maybe the books will do it for me but, as much as I want to back this my tastes are aligning up.
Sorry guys.
We'll be doing an update on add-ons in the next week or so - watch this space.
Hordini wrote: Regarding the Epirians and their chaps, I find it interesting that I keep seeing people describe them as wearing "assless" or "buttless" chaps, as if that's something weird or different from regular chaps. They're just normal chaps. That's what chaps are. Most chaps just cover the legs and don't cover the buttocks. People wear chaps to protect the legs, and they make sense if the Epirians are working on planets with a lot of thick brush or undergrowth. I don't know why some people seem to think they are some weird thing.
For one thing, never underestimate the lure of an easy joke. For another, the "assless" comments are not helped by where the detail draws the eye...
No matter how much I know that chaps are a useful garment for everyday people working tough jobs, my mind will always go to the Castro District Halloween Party first. Simply put, when I think of chaps, I don't tend to think of guys doing a job...er, not a job where they get paid..uh, you know what I mean. Gutter-mind is unavoidable for me.
d-usa wrote: Even living in the city for the last 10 years, I still wore chaps on a regular basis when doing work with a chainsaw. They are not exactly uncommon.
That's exactly why I was surprised at the reaction.
No matter how much I know that chaps are a useful garment for everyday people working tough jobs, my mind will always go to the Castro District Halloween Party first. Simply put, when I think of chaps, I don't tend to think of guys doing a job...er, not a job where they get paid..uh, you know what I mean. Gutter-mind is unavoidable for me.
Initially I didn't want to say anything about the Epirian figures, as it seems too late in the process now for criticism to be constructive. I would like to support the dakka team as much as possible in launching their game, just as I have supported the dakka website. This is why I have pledged money to the kickstarter, and why I wanted to avoid saying anything overly negative about design choices that probably can't be changed. However, since they have already been mentioned by others now, I must concur that I am "put off" by the Epirian figures. While my feelings on this could easily be written-off as a subjective matter of "taste" (you can't please everyone), I think the issue might be more serious. The figures appear to have anatomical/scale issues, and I fear they might actually have worked against the success of the kickstarter (not that it isn't a success). Speaking only for myself, I can say that these figures are what put me off buying the full game. Instead I only pledged a smaller amount in order to help the project. Had the game come from anyone else other than Dakka, I would not have pledged at all.
I think what niggles at me the most is that there has been so much noise on the forum regarding plastic IG and scale: "bobble heads", "whole army of Rambo", "true scale marines" etc... I'm a little shocked that the dakka team weren't all over this. It's something that they really should have been tuned in to.
I've been staring at the figures all morning now, trying to figure out exactly what it is that I find "off". I think the bulk of the issue is coming from the arms appearing slightly too short. Especially from shoulder to elbow. Many heroic scale figures have arms down to their knees in order to keep proportion with the body. These guys have arms to where they should be for true scale figures, but the legs are much shorter than true scale, so it's all messed up. It would be interesting to see what they would look like with regular IG arms. I think the neck is also a little long for heroic scale, but that might not be too noticeable if the arms were fixed.
I did some quick doodles to try and illustrate what I mean:
I exaggerated the proportions further to make it more obvious. Figure 1 is the type of distortion I think is going on with the Epirians, this is what I see when I look at them. Figure 2 is more in line with what I would expect from heroic scale. Neither are in proportion, but figure 2 has a consistency that makes it work. Figure 1 by contrast is mixed up, and that makes it look kinda goofy.
I think they should break their plastic only promise and make a stretch goal resin epirian bob the builder... I mean contractor version in resin of your doodles!
I am more interested in the background at the moment than the game, but I owe Dakka a second look, which will come later.
I saw some small mecha for the game at Salute, one looking very similar to a clan Hellbringer the other being very alien and walking on insect legs.
They look interesting buit I cant afford yet another game. Dakka ir not, that would pretty much end it.
However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.
I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.
Orlanth wrote: I am more interested in the background at the moment than the game, but I owe Dakka a second look, which will come later.
I saw some small mecha for the game at Salute, one looking very similar to a clan Hellbringer the other being very alien and walking on insect legs.
They look interesting buit I cant afford yet another game. Dakka ir not, that would pretty much end it.
I'm in it personally for the rules and possibly some of the yet to be previewed models assuming they change the policy of no add-ons (which they admittedly instituted for good reason).
I'd like some ability to build the Epirians (contractors and drones) in their non-combat civilian roles for ME and other games. Is an accessory sprue a possibility?
Sigvatr wrote: I'll wait until there's a totally-not-Necron faction.
You'll likely be waiting a while, since they've already said that this won't happen...
Smacks wrote: I think what niggles at me the most is that there has been so much noise on the forum regarding plastic IG and scale: "bobble heads", "whole army of Rambo", "true scale marines" etc... I'm a little shocked that the dakka team weren't all over this. It's something that they really should have been tuned in to.
The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.
I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.
The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.
insaniak wrote: The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.
I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.
The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.
No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.
Sigvatr wrote: I'll wait until there's a totally-not-Necron faction.
You'll likely be waiting a while, since they've already said that this won't happen...
Their loss
It doesn't have to be totally-not-Necron, but there isn't much more that could possibly represent a stoic faction focusing everything on a single goal with zero respect or interesting for anything. Extremely one-sided and simple. Straight-forward. No grey area or anything. No moral ambiguity. No emotional crap. Just getting straight in your face.
Smacks wrote: No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.
I can see the argument for heroic scale, and personally I like it. I see nothing wrong with the proportions of most GW model ranges, because they all have the same outscale proportions it looks ok, it even tricks the eye into making it look well proportioned.
The key however is consistency. I think the two range shown are not quite consistent and thus I can see where Smacks gets the idea of the Epirians 'puppet pose', I dont notice it when looking at the Epirians alone, but I did a little next to the Karists =, and certainly do when seeing them next to the IG comparion figure.
In that it is unfair, the figure comparisons are for identifying scale and not measuring proportions.
Still the army poses on the Eipirians make the elbows look too high, as if they are marionettes and have hidden strings. It might be a feature of assembly of those particular models as they appear to be multipose kits.
It could be that the problem sorts out itself.
Regardless, there is room for hard critique, we are Dakka after all. I don't think we do you justice without proper feedback, even if you are home team.
And while onto that, as some have picked up on already....
insaniak wrote: The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.
I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.
The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.
No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.
That is exactly my issue with the eperians, true scale has nothing to do with it, the upper arms seem a tad short, hope they can address this at the next version of eperians
However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.
I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what we are aiming for background-wise already! I'll be interested to hear your thoughts once you've read the novels.
darrkespur wrote: We also strive to make it internally consistent and rigorously designed. I hesitate to call it hard science fiction due to the expectations that brings on a setting - we still want to include a lot of things that make a space-based setting fun like FTL, aliens and advanced technology that doesn't exist yet, so we will be inventing some things that perhaps aren't entirely explained by current scientific laws. I'd probably call it 'harder' science fiction than what you see in many games, but not sacrificing the fun and potential of the stories we want to tell on the requirement to be ultra-factual.
Adding FTL, advanced technology and aliens is fine. Nobody has a problem with that. The issue is the more mundane stuff. Making gak up is okay if there's enough of a payoff to justify it, but there is no such payoff for giving the flying drones too few fans to maneuver, half-assing the scarecrows or giving the Epirians shoulder pads bigger than their heads.
However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.
I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what we are aiming for background-wise already! I'll be interested to hear your thoughts once you've read the novels.
No problems. I will say where I think its could go very broadly, like a shotgun blast of consequences, they might seed you some more ideas.
Sounds like they're kind of hitting the same problem Firefly had. Firefly's a great show for many, but there's the weirder anachronisms that make it very hard for just as many to get interested. Chaps just happen to be one of those things.
I think the scarecrows are fine as silly robots. The core design is really good. However, the hard scifi descriptor they try to market with does conflict with the design from a practicality aspect. Even more so if the scarecrows were crappy labor bots first, and then it's even more likely that they should have had hands or wrist joints for generic labor.
They're trying a bit too hard in that marketing aspect.
I'd say stealing/using guns that are held is a lot easier than stealing guns actually built in to a big scary robot
so as these are deterrent rather than 1st line military units where absolute function would be the priority (so no humanoid robots) these make as much sense as anything
judgedoug wrote: Anyone read through the rules PDF yet? I have, but I wanted to see others opinions.
You convinced me to take a look. I'm not much of a rules guy, and I haven't played Infinity, WMH or most of the other big games to compare this to, so take my opinion as that of a wargaming novice. So far, it looks like a ton of bookkeeping. Keeping track of command points, activations, victory points, stat cards for versus rolls, and suppression tokens. I can't imagine wanting to play this with more than 4, maybe 5, units per side.
It seems like this game will be all about who is least suppressed and who gets to move, as opposed to who wipes out whom. I guess that makes the game "tactical", but it also sounds intimidating for a casual player. The rolls certainly have a huge impact on the game, to the point where I can't imagine people who hate random charge distances are going to like it. The best strategy seems to be "roll well".
During the sample turn, the Karists' Mass number was used to determine how many Penetrations they could take before leaving the fight, but in the stat area, it lists Fortitude as the number of Penetrations a model can withstand. Contractors have both MAS and FOR stats, which do not match, so how many Penetrations can they take?
The ending conditions seem very cutthroat, which is probably great for tournament play, but won't go over so well when halfassing with friends. The VS rolls remind me of the old Star Wars RPG, so I'm cool with them.
It feels like there was a lot of pertinent information left out or glossed over during the intro and sample turn.
PS: In the description at the bottom, the Karists' trilenses should cover their RIGHT eyes.
(as bidding is in any boardgames that have it, some love the extra interaction it gives, others hate it)
You know what game has a lot of bidding interactions? Monopoly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, reading more about the suppressions, it sounds like it's important to shake off the tokens.. 'Cause the opposing player's gonna play, play, play, play, play, and their shooters gonna shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. So you just gotta shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. Shake 'em off. Shake 'em off.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: During the sample turn, the Karists' Mass number was used to determine how many Penetrations they could take before leaving the fight, but in the stat area, it lists Fortitude as the number of Penetrations a model can withstand. Contractors have both MAS and FOR stats, which do not match, so how many Penetrations can they take?
If I understand the intention correctly, if you have X Mass and Y Fortitude it takes X penetrations to cause an injury, and Y injuries to cause a casualty. So if you had two units, one with 6 mass and 1 fortitude and the other with 1 mass and 6 fortitude, they'd both take 6 penetrations to take down, but for the first one you have to do it all at once while you can whittle down the second over multiple rounds of shooting.
" I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay."
"The criticism of models like GW's guard [i]was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.
"[/i]
I am very sorry to interject here, but " yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay. " Is highly unfounded and unsupported, I would highly argue against exaggerated proportions makes a game easier to tell what is going on, it really is not hard to see what is happening in a game from the table view regardless of scale of the miniature. I usually will look up at the miniatures close up regardless of scale to see if I like the concept and art direction of the miniatures. I like true scale miniatures myself because of the realism of them which makes it a joy to paint and the realism they make the game feel like on the table top.
I am not bashing anything about Medges miniatures here I am just simply stating that I do not believe this has any grain of truth to it, why then is Infinity one of the best if not thee best selling Sci fi tabletop small scale skirmish game in the market place? for me it is personal preference I simply enjoy true scale miniatures and that is why I am producing our coming range in true scale. Some people support Heroic scale which is fine, but I do not know why they did not simply say because they prefer this scale over other scales. The saying above about how it effects the viewing of the game is unfounded and unsupported by any facts, sorry but I had to voice my opinion that I disagree with what is mentioned here and I am sure a large portion of the market would agree.
I agree you cannot make everyone happy, I would suggest focusing on your setting and building IP this I feel is the most valuable product any entertainment , miniatures or other wise product a company can ever make, keep with producing a story a setting , develop it and it will help sell your miniatures and game.
No offense do I wish to impart I simply have to say I disagree with this statement.
You can stylize in ways that aren't so radically distorted, and still maintain the visual cues for gameplay. Things like enlarging weapons, unique arm poses for specific weapons, extra bits for the back and head for specific models, etc.
But I also understand the difficulty of making plastics when starting out, and their need to maintain the marketing message.
They likely erred way too much on the side of caution when sculpting those ridiculous contractor proportions. Then on top of that, their aesthetic mindset and appeal is still firmly entrenched in old style 40k, the game that they hope to replace for themselves.
Stuff like the ridiculous shoulders on the contractors is more of a sign of inexperience and erring too much on the side of bulk so that the shoulder joints will connect. Then because of that, they backed off making the arms proper length. They might also be running into mold size limits, hence the squash.
I don't think future releases for ME will make that mistake, and that's already being shown. They'll find a way to have the compressed proportions without the obviously wrong ratios. Unfortunately, that does mean the early core models are stuck like this for a while, as no one will change such high cost molds.
And the rules are excellent so far. Has some legacy from that style of British/old-40k but with a lot of good extrapolations. Appeals to GW gamers in core style, but with all the modern methods along with a focus on more reasonably sized engagements.
underfire wargaming wrote: I am very sorry to interject here, but " yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay. " Is highly unfounded and unsupported,
It's a personal opinion. It's 'founded' and 'supported' by that opinion.
Whether or not you personally agree with it, well, that's up to you. The designers of the game do think that it makes for easier gameplay, and so that's the way they designed their game... and as a gamer with more than 20 years of playing various different games, I completely agree with them.
I love the look of truescale models for display pieces... but for gaming, I like the fact that you can tell what's what from 3 feet away, even if it does make the models look a little cartoony up close.
... why then is Infinity one of the best if not thee best selling Sci fi tabletop small scale skirmish game in the market place?
Because it's a good game?
Would it sell better or worse with 'heroic' scale miniatures instead of the more true-scale that they went with? We really have no way to tell.
Note though that even with the more true-scale proportions on the miniatures, their weapons are huge. It's the same principle at work, just applied specifically to weapons rather than to the whole models.
And yes, those oversized weapons are the most common complaint I've seen made about Infinity models, from those who would prefer more 'realistic' gear.
Some people support Heroic scale which is fine, but I do not know why they did not simply say because they prefer this scale over other scales.
Uh... they did. That was the bit about them preferring heroic scale because it's easier to tell what was going on.
... why then is Infinity one of the best if not thee best selling Sci fi tabletop small scale skirmish game in the market place?
Because it's a good game?
It is a good game, but the miniatures are also gorgeous. Issues of true/heroic scale aside, Infinity has some really sexy miniatures (and I'm not just talking about the ones in tight catsuits). There might be some people who don't like any Infinity miniatures, and those people are called Al-qaeda.
Desirable miniatures are undeniably important for drawing people into a game. I would say more important than rules or fluff. I know I certainly didn't buy SDE because I really wanted to roll dice that have tiny hearts on them. I just liked the miniatures and thought I would check it out.
I think that's what is really missing from Maelstroms Edge. There are no models there that I just have to have. The Epirians might have hooked me in with the multi-part poses, but I actually prefer the cheapo EM4 troopers-- which is a terrible thing to say because those guys are nasty crap -- but it's also true. Even though I can see the Epirians are much nicer sculpts with lovely attention to detail. The assembled whole just doesn't do the parts justice.
EM4 Troopers: (view at your own risk)
Spoiler:
I've been watching the new CMON kickstarter "B-Sieged: Sons of the Abyss". and that has turned 150k now on just the first day. It doesn't even look that special (certainly no Zombicide). Ninja All Stars hit about 100k on the first day too. I don't see why Maelstroms Edge couldn't also be up to 100k by now, if people really were loving the miniatures. Perhaps it is my own bias confirmation, but the fact that we're now on day 5 and the kickstarter is just limping past the 30k mark, makes me feel that the market is really only luke warm in its response to the miniatures. Which I guess is okay, the project still got funded and will probably tip 100k by the end, but it isn't exactly taking the gaming world by storm. That's a shame because I think a lot of the ingredients are there ready: good story, experienced devs, a preassembled user base... Just need to get all those cylinders firing.
The forum could have been an invaluable resource in field testing the response to things like "assless chaps" before production. It's a shame it wasn't used more. I understand the reluctance to go public too early, but still. It feels like these plastics are so far developed that it is now way too late to hear critique, while the artwork and characters are too underdeveloped to power the kickstarter. Raging heroes, for example had a serious butt load of great concept art before it launched. Kaddar Nova is more deviant-art than concept art, and he's looking quite lonely.
Those games you mentioned are boxed boardgames, which people really, really want for some reason. I think it's because it's because boardgaming has become a big hobby and much more acceptable to the public, compared to traditional miniature games.
There's a reason why Gangfight is making a boxed boardgame version of Blackwater Gulch, and CMON and the like are pumping out version after version of boardgames that are miniature games in all but name and extras.
I backed to support Dakka although I don't have a lot of use for the miniatures currently, without some reworking. I am however more interested in the terrain sprue. I'd buy just that 10 times over.
I get the miniatures are heroic scale or rather WH40K heroic scale so they can probably mingle and mix with them. Unfortunately most of miniatures tend to be either 28-35mm and more true proportion (not technically true scale) so they don't mix well with my WH40K.
insaniak wrote: I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.
I agree and disagree. ^_^ Can someone explain how LoS is determine with ME?
The only reason I ask is because I'm being lazy to look it up right now. Most games I play today tend to use a LoS from the miniatures perspective, even cylinder with Infinity. As a player I'm always close to the table, looking at my sight lines, who see's what and where I can move to take advantage of cover. I'm not playing the game from multiple feet away.
I do understand from a casual look, heroic scale (I like to say heroic bulk) can make things easier to spot. In most cases though that is why games use exaggerated weapon sizes. I'm ok with exaggerated weapon sizes since the loadout is what normally is important if you are playing a WYSIWYG game. Otherwise I simply ask for clarification of the player (especially if playing with proxies) since a good portion of that information would be public information. I don't usually need to know what is on the table because I already have a pretty good idea what is where and who is what.
I've been watching the new CMON kickstarter "B-Sieged: Sons of the Abyss". and that has turned 150k now on just the first day. It doesn't even look that special (certainly no Zombicide). Ninja All Stars hit about 100k on the first day too.
There is a world of difference between boardgame kickstarters (even if they happen to include minatures) and miniature wargame kickstarters.
CMON have an established reputation for producing those boardgames. And people can feel 'safer' backing an all-in-one game... It's a one-off purchase that they expect to give them a few hours of fun, before they move on to the next one.
Spiral Arm Studios, by contrast, is a new player in the market, and people are reluctant to jump on board new wargames, as a rule. There's a more significant time and cash investment to get really into the game, and any game is also at the mercy of how many people in a given area take it up (nobody wants to be the one guy who wants to play that game that nobody else is into), and that makes people hesitate.
Even with that, though, the total figure is ultimately not as important as the fact that MEdge still hit its funding goal in 20 hours.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You convinced me to take a look. I'm not much of a rules guy, and I haven't played Infinity, WMH or most of the other big games to compare this to, so take my opinion as that of a wargaming novice. So far, it looks like a ton of bookkeeping. Keeping track of command points, activations, victory points, stat cards for versus rolls, and suppression tokens. I can't imagine wanting to play this with more than 4, maybe 5, units per side.
It seems like this game will be all about who is least suppressed and who gets to move, as opposed to who wipes out whom. I guess that makes the game "tactical", but it also sounds intimidating for a casual player. The rolls certainly have a huge impact on the game, to the point where I can't imagine people who hate random charge distances are going to like it. The best strategy seems to be "roll well".
The discipline checks (where you're rolling the squad's Willpower against the amount of Suppression it has) are the really 'big' single rolls that can swing things quite a bit, because if you fail them, your defensive fire is practically non-existant or you can't choose what action you want the unit to take, etc.
However, it is important to know that both sides have the ability to manipulate these rolls to a large degree. For example, if you're the player trying to suppress an enemy unit, if you can get that enemy unit with triple the suppression compared to its Willpower characteristic, then that unit automatically fails its discipline checks. So you know exactly what you need to do to get that enemy unit to a point where it has absolutely zero chance to pass that test.
On the flipside, as the player with the suppressed unit, you're able to spend your command points to reduce your unit's suppression (as long as they're within 18" of a command model). So if you have a unit that is heavily suppressed but you absolutely need to make sure it activates properly, you can save your command points and make sure they're available for that unit. And of course a unit with no suppression on it automatically passes discipline checks, so if you can get rid of all their suppression, there is no chance for failure in that regard.
So absolutely, in critical situations you sometimes have to pull the trigger and gamble on a discipline check passing/failing with the knowledge of how likely it will be to pass/fail based on how much suppression there is on the unit, but you can also take the steps to be 100% certain if you feel it is critical to your plans.
During the sample turn, the Karists' Mass number was used to determine how many Penetrations they could take before leaving the fight, but in the stat area, it lists Fortitude as the number of Penetrations a model can withstand. Contractors have both MAS and FOR stats, which do not match, so how many Penetrations can they take?
One of the challenges of trying to make a ruleset for a game that doesn't feature that many models, is that you can't just have the models get killed instantly or else the game is over pretty much immediately. That means you need a way to track damage, and in a lot of games that means marking damage on unit cards. I've never been a huge fan of this because it means you have to keep asking your opponent all the time how much damage each enemy unit has when things start getting hectic...in other words, you can't 'see' the damage directly on the table. Therefore, having suppression markers on the table is in a roundabout way, a method to track damage on a unit without having its models getting killed. It also doubles as a morale system at the same time, which I like.
So in this game, there is a 'Mass' characteristic, which represents a model's overall size and strength. A standard human sized model has a Mass of 2, a small drone has a Mass of 1, and bigger models have a Mass of 3, and so on. If you do enough damage to a model within a single round of shooting to equal their Mass, then they suffer an injury, and the majority of models can only suffer a single injury before they die (the amount of injuries they can suffer is equal to their Fortitude characteristic).
If you inflict damage on the model but don't do enough to cause an injury, this damage still causes the unit to accrue suppression (1/2 the amount of damage inflicted on the model, rounding up when necessary). In this way, you can have standard infantry models that are still kind of tough to kill, but without any kind of damage tracking beyond suppression. And as the attacker, if you do damage to a model, but aren't able to kill it, you're still getting rewarded by causing them to suffer suppression.
However, obviously for models like characters and bigger models like vehicles, etc, you just can't jack up their Mass characteristic and that be it, because it would just be feast or famine...you'd either kill the whole guy in one round of shooting or just cause suppression. For those 'tougher' kind of units where you expect them to be able to keep on fighting despite taking damage you do need an actual secondary damage track, which in this case is the 'Fortitude' characteristic (which tells how many injuries the model can suffer before it dies).
The nice thing about having this split is that you can have a smaller model that makes sense to be Mass 1, but for whatever reason it is incredibly durable, and in that case you can jack up its Fortitude characteristic. And yes, the Fortitude characteristic does have to be tracked, but a simple set of tokens or a different colored miniature die works perfectly fine.
The ending conditions seem very cutthroat, which is probably great for tournament play, but won't go over so well when halfassing with friends. The VS rolls remind me of the old Star Wars RPG, so I'm cool with them.
Its actually not perfect for tournament play because it can lead to some games ending fairly quickly and the players having to wait around for the next round. Although Warmahordes has this same kind of issue and nobody has a problem with that, so its probably fine.
But honestly, when it comes to beer & pretzel gaming I don't think having a game be able to be over at any time really kills anything. In so many games we kind of 'know' the game is more or less over, but (some of us, like me who likes to play to the bitter, bitter end) we keep playing just because those are officially the rules of the game.
Here, you're keeping track of the score of the game as it goes on, and you both know the exact stakes. It creates a whole different kind of tension that I think (hope) you'll find different and refreshing, but I don't think it is frustrating because its the rules of the game and everyone knows it is coming. If the game ends early, you either just rack up another game or go grab a bite to eat.
It feels like there was a lot of pertinent information left out or glossed over during the intro and sample turn.
Absolutely. Its kind of the nature of a gameplay sample. You're trying to explain as much as you can without going overboard on explaining all the small details. There is definitely lots more cool stuff to dig into.
Raging heroes isn't a board game (do they even have a proper game?). They don't scale well with anything, and the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy was their first Kickstarter. Yet that managed over 200k on the first day IIRC.
Smacks wrote: Raging heroes isn't a board game (do they even have a proper game?). They don't scale well with anything, and the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy was their first Kickstarter. Yet that managed over 200k on the first day IIRC.
So you can repeat my previous statement, and replace the references to 'boardgame kickstarter' with 'kickstarter for alternate miniatures intended primarily for use in Warhammer 40K', if you like.
They had lots of artwork and renders that looked fantastic. They also had sex appeal.
The Kaddor Nova art looks like it was really rushed. At least, I assume it must have been. It is the weakest art of the campaign. Cleaner sketches, like the design art used by Mantic, might have been a better way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yakface, thanks for the answers!
Just curious, but why do command unit bonuses only apply to units within a certain distance of the commander? Don't they have radios?
Just curious, but why do command unit bonuses only apply to units within a certain distance of the commander? Don't they have radios?
Lol , yes you're right, they most certainly have radios (or the equivalent). However, when you're playing a TT wargame, most people seem to appreciate some sense of localized command and control, where the choice of where to place your command models has some effect on the game.
So even though we know they can all communicate with each other, when a command model is within a certain distance of one of his units, we imagine that he's better able to read their situation and provide them with orders more efficiently...so a set range of 18" is what is used to help represent that.
I thought command models mattered because they were the killiest units..? Isn't that how it works in real life? Patton and MacArthur are known for their impressive personal kill tallies, yes?
Although, now that I think about it, Yamamoto was out of line of site with his units for much of the war.
insaniak wrote: So you can repeat my previous statement, and replace the references to 'boardgame kickstarter' with 'kickstarter for alternate miniatures intended primarily for use in Warhammer 40K', if you like.
Meh, it's not like Epirians wouldn't fit with 40k. Maybe you should have done girls in assless chaps instead
Actually, out of curiosity, what will be Dakka's stance on the depiction of women in their games? After seeing the success of lines such as Infinity, RK, TGG et all, it does seem like there is a lucrative market for sexualised characters. Or will MEdge be all PG 13?
insaniak wrote: So you can repeat my previous statement, and replace the references to 'boardgame kickstarter' with 'kickstarter for alternate miniatures intended primarily for use in Warhammer 40K', if you like.
Meh, it's not like Epirians wouldn't fit with 40k. Maybe you should have done girls in assless chaps instead
Actually, out of curiosity, what will be Dakka's stance on the depiction of women in their games? After seeing the success of lines such as Infinity, RK, TGG et all, it does seem like there is a lucrative market for sexualised characters. Or will MEdge be all PG 13?
I believe Lego has said a few times that he and the company are 100% against cheesecake. Realistic women or not at all.
Smacks wrote: Raging heroes isn't a board game (do they even have a proper game?). They don't scale well with anything, and the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy was their first Kickstarter. Yet that managed over 200k on the first day IIRC.
So you can repeat my previous statement, and replace the references to 'boardgame kickstarter' with 'kickstarter for alternate miniatures intended primarily for use in Warhammer 40K', if you like.
The first KoWKS? WarZone Resurrection KS? Neither game was really established or popular. I assume you mean that we can just keep on repeating your previous statement and changing the references over and over for different games and campaigns as excuses why the rather static response for ME after the first day is just fine, rather than taking any of the repeated specific aesthetic criticisms of this one into account. Just keep changing the metrics and deflecting the criticism. Admittedly, it's not like anything can be done about the various sub-par models in the range at this stage. As others have said, it's a shame more market research wasn't done on that front, given the marvellous resources, audience and opportunity that this website provides for that sort of thing. I wish I loved the models. If I did, I'd planning out and buying an army or three worth of models I might never even get around to build assemble or play - but I'd be buying them and planning to paint and build them. (Just like my Skeven, Zulus, Chaos Dwarves, Dwarves, about 10 chapters of Marines and CSM, ECW and War of the Roses armies and many many more - all of which I've happily bought.)
I mean, it makes sense that many of the campaign's supporters jumped on in the first day, and that it's doing the usual KS curvature thing now. But it's not exactly burning the house down, either. I certainly hope it's successful and the creators make their money back (and a profit), but I don't think it's going to set the world on fire. It feels like it'll be just another small indie sci-fi game/ruleset that has its devotees and just quietly exists for a few years.
The Kadaar Nova looks like either 1980's-early 1990's RPG artwork, (excepting the top end, like Liz Danforth) or modern fan art. It would not look out of place as a submission in IronWatch magazine or on a DeviantArt page. It's
I have to admit I'm baffled by why this isn't doing better. There are a lot of good minis in plastic, terrain options, and communicative creators. There are a lot of criticism, but considering how much Mantic made per KS, even after KOW1, MEdge should have gotten at least a bit more pledge gaming.
Azazelx wrote: The first KoWKS? WarZone Resurrection KS? Neither game was really established or popular.
Warzone was 'established' in the '90s, and a lot of the drive to ressurrect it was based on nostalgia. It wasn't a new product that nobody had ever heard of before. And Mantic had been around for some time before their first Kickstarter.
I assume you mean that we can just keep on repeating your previous statement and changing the references over and over for different games and campaigns as excuses why the rather static response for ME after the first day is just fine, rather than taking any of the repeated specific aesthetic criticisms of this one into account.
If you like.
To be clear, I'm not saying that MEdge is above any criticism. My point was simply that different kickstarters are different. It's not as simple as saying 'This one made fourteen gazillion dollars in its first 3 minutes, and it had butterflies in it, so that kickstarter that didn't make as much is clearly doing badly due to its lack of butterflies...'
There are any number of different factors that influence the success or failure of any given kickstarter project, and the design of the models is only one of those factors. The type of game, previous exposure on kickstarter, the reputation of the creators, how word gets around about the project, and I suspect in some cases more than a little luck all play a part, as does the structure of the kickstarter itself. From what I've seen, most of the miniatures-related kickstarters that have raked in the cash have gone for the 'offer small reward options, and make a killing on add-ons' route, which was something that the SAS guys wanted to avoid. The goal here wasn't to have the bigest kickstarter ever... it was to launch a game.
(I should also point out, in case it's not apparent already, that I don't speak for Spiral Arm Studios in any capacity. I'm not a member of the design team, although I've had a few peeks behind the curtain... my comments here are purely as a fan, not any sort of 'official' statement)
Yeah seems a bit odd for me. Just being right on top of dakka and being connected to dakka, I really thought it would see a bunch more support on the first day and throughout.
I guess the nice thing here is that the project is set to go even without the kickstarter, and we'll see all of this in retail (perhaps a bit slower, if things don't pick up and all that), regardless of the kickstarter's success.
I know deadzone got a lot further along before it stalled, but it was another long campaign that really built up towards the end and I could still see that happening here. Maybe not to that degree, but really I don't think MEdge really *needs* that level of funding.
Agree. The bigger the player base the more likely the rules would be able to matter for me and the less likely I'd just be buying it for models. Plus more people now generally means more people later which will help grow the brand.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's the backer numbers I worry about. The more people who get Medged in the campaign, the larger and more viable the eventual player base will be.
That is a good point, MEdge could be the greatest game ever made but if only 50 people play it then it'll be a complete waste of time. However I think with the numbers currently backing MEdge there should be a half decent playerbase at launch. Certainly enough for the backers to run around giving demo games to their mates, family members, gaming club, FLGS or who ever they play with. I will definitely be trying to get other members of my club involved one the game is in my hands. At the moment I would say that for a completely brand new and therefore unproven company this campaign is doing pretty well. It's certainly unfair to compare it to the likes of the Cool Mini Or Not's board game pre order campaigns, or established companies like Mantic or Raging Heroes.
Speaking of demo games I do have a couple of questions I might as well ask here.
Are there any plans for an official demo team ala Privateer Press, Mantic, Spartan etc?
and will the mission and unit cards be of a standard size so they can be protected in sleeves?
That is a good point, MEdge could be the greatest game ever made but if only 50 people play it then it'll be a complete waste of time. However I think with the numbers currently backing MEdge there should be a half decent playerbase at launch.
Particularly since the majority of backers are in for the actual starter set, rather than just a handful of miniatures to use in another game.
Are there any plans for an official demo team ala Privateer Press, Mantic, Spartan etc?
I believe that had been discussed in the News thread, but is currently too early for them to say anything definite down that road.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It's the backer numbers I worry about. The more people who get Medged in the campaign, the larger and more viable the eventual player base will be.
That is a good point, MEdge could be the greatest game ever made but if only 50 people play it then it'll be a complete waste of time. However I think with the numbers currently backing MEdge there should be a half decent playerbase at launch.
On this note, we have a really low barrier to entry as our scale compatibility means proxying is quite realistic, so people dont need to have the whole boxed set in their hands to get started with us and our 'learn to play' youtube video series will teach the absolute basics of the game which will be a great jumping off point for people who want to try it out in a bit more detail. Coupled with Dakka's exposure over the longer period, we are not concerned about player count at all, regardless of the kickstarter numbers (which as you say should be pretty solid anyway).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I'm baffled by why this isn't doing better. There are a lot of good minis in plastic, terrain options, and communicative creators. There are a lot of criticism, but considering how much Mantic made per KS, even after KOW1, MEdge should have gotten at least a bit more pledge gaming.
I can think of several reasons
No early birds so no forced rush to pledge (and no incentive for those waiting to pledge to keep checking for EB slots as folk drop out or move up)
A very long (by current KS standards) campaign.. it covers 2 pay days, but means there's no real hurry to get a pledge in
It's a new IP from a new company (even with Dakka as a name behind it) both potentially worrisome to KS backers
No add ons (yet?), so if you don't want it all you're not going to back (again once somebody's backed it's a lot easier for them to justify spending a little more cash for lots more stuff even if they don't really want it)
It's a wargame not a boardgame and I think that does make a real difference, both in terms of there being fewer potential backers, and being less attractive to completionists who will realise they will carry on having to buy stuff for this after the KS (unlike a 'one and done' boardgame)
They're showing the actual minis which are not to everybody's taste both in terms of looks and in terms of proportions (while experienced KS backers disregard concept art, there are plenty of inexperienced ones who DO back based on nice art which it's they assume will end up as perfectly scaled to what they want)
It's been very, very busy on KS in the March/April, lots of wallets and Credit Card are just empty
The pace of reveals of stretch goals etc is slow.... A double edged sword this, showing more might gain more immediate pledges but does run the risk of them running out of stuff to show over the long campaign, and of people starting to panic that stuff they pledged for will not be reached so they pull money causing the campaign to flatline or crash (I think the ME team has it right here, but it is probably another reason things are running slowly)
and this is all going to sound very critical, when most of it isn't
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They're showing the actual minis which are not to everybody's taste both in terms of looks and in terms of proportions (while experienced KS backers disregard concept art, there are plenty of inexperienced ones who DO back based on nice art which it's they assume will end up as perfectly scaled to what they want)
That's actually a really good point that I hadn't considered here... which is funny, given that the current trend of only having concept art to show off is precisely what has put me off a lot of Kickstarters on account of not being able to tell what the final product will look like.
In this case, the minis not being to some peoples' taste may well have cost them some backers who might have pledged on concept art... but it's ultimately probably far better that those people found that out before pledging, rather than later on...
Absolutely it's the right thing to do for the long term future of the game,
and my preferred option too
(the alternative would be to have concept art and be ultra faithful to it like Mierce but that's hard to do, and no dount even harder when you've got the limitations of HIPS plastic to deal with too)
I think the biggest positive of MEdge's treatment of using Kickstarter is they aren't going to be hit by false expectations once this is all over. I still watch a number of Kickstarters that promised the moon and have been reeling as they fail to meet deadlines and the offers they gave. This shouldn't be a problem at all for MEdge, and in that regard they should continue to have a growing level of positivity around the product as time goes on.
So I see it more as the slow-moving, well-built train versus the one with all of the bells and whistles that falls apart under its own invention.
insaniak wrote: It's not as simple as saying 'This one made fourteen gazillion dollars in its first 3 minutes, and it had butterflies in it, so that kickstarter that didn't make as much is clearly doing badly due to its lack of butterflies...'
Actually, in spite of the above being a rather hyperbolic example, that is kind of how deduction works...
The rate at which people are joining the kickstarter is a secondary point anyway. This started with people giving feedback about the game. A lot of that feedback was directed towards the miniatures (the Epirians in particular). I felt that there was an attempt to invalidate that feedback by responding with things like: "some people like them. You can't please everyone."
And that would be a perfectly fair response if the kickstarter were really lighting-up. Critics would have to concede that they really do just belong to an anomalous minority of complainers. However, when we compare the kickstarter to other "similar" projects, the reception has been underwhelming. So perhaps what is being said aught to be listened to more closely.
As someone who frequently backs kickstarters, I have explained why I don't want to buy this game. When I look through the kickstarter overload topic, where people on dakka that buy kickstarters (target audience right there) are swapping stories. What I am not seeing is people listing MEdge among their purchases. Even Cincy, who appears to have backed every kickstarter miniature game ever, doesn't seem to be getting involved, and he has posted in this topic saying that he is uninspired by the miniatures. Yet still there seems to be a predilection towards invalidating that criticism, by saying "Other kickstarters are different. MEdge is somehow handicapped by its unique (and unavoidable) characteristics".
But this seems to be just a case of moving the goalposts now. For every excuse that OtT and Insaniak mentioned, there are kickstarters that have proven those things aren't a barrier to success. If anything I would say MEdge has been privileged: plastered all over the front of "the world's biggest" wargaming site, and a staff pick on kickstarter. So rather than argue it is some kind of "perfect storm" of unavoidable things, coming together in a "unique" way to stifle MEdge, how about some acknowledgement of what people are saying:" this miniature game needs more desirable miniatures".
I'm struggling to find an example on KS of a miniature game that "blew the lid off" without having that. Though interestingly, Impact's chibi miniatures dropped from over 3000% funded during their first kickstarter (concept art only), to a measly 148% for their follow up kickstarter (after everyone saw what they were making, and what nasty crap trollcast is). So again I say, when we're discussing factors that affect the success of miniature games on kickstarter, "on the miniatures" is the first (and second, and third) place we aught to be focusing. Especially when that is what people on the forum are expressing dissatisfaction with.
insaniak wrote: It's not as simple as saying 'This one made fourteen gazillion dollars in its first 3 minutes, and it had butterflies in it, so that kickstarter that didn't make as much is clearly doing badly due to its lack of butterflies...'
Actually, in spite of the above being a rather hyperbolic example, that is kind of how deduction works...
Sure. Except the end result is flawed deduction when there are more than just that one factor involved.
At the end of the day, MEdge is a brand new game, that isn't a self -contained boardgame, or an excuse to sell models to people who will just use them in 40k, from a studio that has no prior history in making games... And that, I feel, it's a bigger factor than the models. New wargames (other than aforementioned games that really only exist to sell models to the 40k crowd) have fairly consistently done badly on Kickstarter. MEdge has at least funded, but it's still pushing against that inertia that people have where new games are concerned.
Yet still there seems to be a predilection towards invalidating that criticism
Not agreeing with your criticism is not the same as invalidating it. You're welcome to your opinion... All I'm doing is sharing mine, which happens to differ from yours.
It's obvious the maelstrom is the side-effect of exposing a quasar to those chalky heart candies you get on Valentine's Day:
"As the candy hearts poured into the fiery quasar, a wondrous thing happened, why not. They vaporized into a mystical love radiation that spread across the universe, destroying many, many planets, including two gangster planets and a cowboy world. But one planet was exactly the right distance to see the romantic rays but not be destroyed by them: Earth. So all over the world couples stood together in joy. And me, Zoidberg. And no one could have been happier unless it would have also been Valentine's Day. What? It was? Hooray.!!"
But honestly, the similarities between 40k and MEdge are what- purple void space/incoming thread destroying things, a religious cult causing a ruckus, and a feeling of imminent doom? Doesn't that describe any futuristic setting? This is just my personal opinion obviously, but I think that 40k has really negatively impacted some people's ability to consider anything other than 40k. It's like WoW or Apple, you show someone a new MMO or laptop and they just say "oh, it's just like an inferior WoW/Mac" without ANY thought whatsoever. Just really good brainwashing.
(That being said, I think Apple, WoW, and 40k are good products. But if you can't see value in things outside of them, there might be an issue.)
BTW, Futurama totally stole that whole world-destroying thing from 40k.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They're showing the actual minis which are not to everybody's taste both in terms of looks and in terms of proportions (while experienced KS backers disregard concept art, there are plenty of inexperienced ones who DO back based on nice art which it's they assume will end up as perfectly scaled to what they want)
That's actually a really good point that I hadn't considered here... which is funny, given that the current trend of only having concept art to show off is precisely what has put me off a lot of Kickstarters on account of not being able to tell what the final product will look like.
In this case, the minis not being to some peoples' taste may well have cost them some backers who might have pledged on concept art... but it's ultimately probably far better that those people found that out before pledging, rather than later on...
With the exception of very few companies that have proven track records of turning out great looking models (Raging Heroes), I definitely need actual figures, prints or at least renders. While I like Mantic's rules (though Alessio's behaviour in regard to KoW2 along with Jake's attitude to not fixing DZ and DB issues have seriously degraded that trust) I'll pledge for their rules but in no way will I ever pledge for Mantic's figures without concrete sculpted materials or solid renders as opposed to concept art. That of course goes for any other KS at this stage.
So even though I actively dislike several of the designs, ME is still miles ahead of a lot of others in that regard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And what's the deal with "VIP website access"
Is this the whole thing?:
VIP status gives a number of benefits:
A 10% discount on anything bought direct in our webstore (from retail release onwards).
2 weeks early access to new releases on our webstore compared to the general public.
Exclusive short stories for your kindle/ipad/kobo/pc/other digital reader (exclusive for 1 year).
Additional free digital content such as audiobooks, new missions, etc.
Beta access to the rules as soon as they are ready, should you wish to help us playtest the game prior to release.
Because other than for superfans that want to playtest their beta rules and so forth, I'm not really seeing anything there that is a draw. Unless ME plan to sell only directly from their website and cut out retailers who also discount.
It seems like a defend deal, especially from a small company.
If for some strange reason this manages to blow up to X-Wing levels (just as a comparison), then you could end up with supply issues. Being able to have a two week period where you are first in line to order directly from the company instead of waiting to see if your store got a delivery could be a good benefit. Getting 10% off is also nice in that regard if it makes it a better choice between "get it now at 10% for sure, or hope your retailer gets a delivery and maybe get it at 20%."
Of course the opposite end may very well be that the game remains small and it could happen that no major discounter ends up stocking it at all. And if no discounter stocks it that 10% discount will be nice to have.
I don't know that I would pay for VIP, but as a free bonus for backing it's not something that I will complain about.
I dunno. For a game starting out (small) I'd think they would want to have retailers much more onside and not compete with them for the (very limited - certainly initially) initial small customer base. Anything that's going to turn your retail partners off stocking your product might not be that great an idea. Not sure about the value of "free stories and art" as part of a paid website sub either - surely you'd want as much of that out there as possible to get people who aren't invested into the game. Despite the fact that I'm not personally interested at all in either, both this and the other thread shows a lot of others are very interested in that stuff, and the fluff is often the thing that can make people come down off the fence and try out their game, etc.
Accolade wrote: But honestly, the similarities between 40k and MEdge are what- purple void space/incoming thread destroying things, a religious cult causing a ruckus, and a feeling of imminent doom? Doesn't that describe any futuristic setting? This is just my personal opinion obviously, but I think that 40k has really negatively impacted some people's ability to consider anything other than 40k. It's like WoW or Apple, you show someone a new MMO or laptop and they just say "oh, it's just like an inferior WoW/Mac" without ANY thought whatsoever. Just really good brainwashing.
No, it does not describe any futuristic setting. Believe it or not, but it's possible to have science fiction that doesn't wallow in grimdark. Defiance Games might have been a lemon but I really liked the fundamentals of that setting: a new age of colonisation on an interstellar scale with no apocalyptic threats, just a cold war that was unlikely to escalate and some local wildlife that was a hazard to new civilian settlements. Even the out of control AI was merely a peacekeeper that protected human cities from attack.
In Alien War, Earth was peaceful and the "war" was merely border skirmishes out on the frontier. In Maelstrom's Edge, Earth is dead and the entire galaxy is circling the drain.
So then automatically like 40k. Because 40k "invented" those two concepts.
40k did not invent grimdark. Grim dark is just a stupid saying from the game's slogan and a tendency to beat players over the head with how bad things are in that universe. Things are bad to the point of absurdity.
MEdge is more like galatic global warming with a vengeance. It's not talking about factions that spend their free time torturing millions, or others worshipping a corpse leader. It's just a dire situation that has bred a lot of conflict. There is absolutely nothing connecting the two except very very broad overreaching concepts that might as well equate to "oh, both games have people fighting each other...in SPACE! And things really suck...sheesh, what a rip"
I also don't hear this "it's grimdark, too much like 40k" gripe about Infinity, where the combined armies are apparently trashing the human's at an exceedingly terrifying rate. Is it because we have the cutsey robots that people just don't think about that part of the lore?
AlexHolker wrote: Believe it or not, but it's possible to have science fiction that doesn't wallow in grimdark.
Indeed it is. Like MEdge, for example.
While the overall outlook for the galaxy is grim, thanks to the (so far as anyone knows) unstoppable nature of the Maelstrom, it's really just about people being people.
The writers behind MEdge have put a lot of effort into creating factions with believable motivations. We're all doomed... but that's going to take a while, and in the meantime, there's room for stories of heroism, greed, selfishness, selflessness... people doing great things, because they need to be done, people doing horrible things, because they can, and people just getting on with their lives, as best they can.
The Maelstrom, ultimately, just provides an excuse for battles to encompass any forseeable scenario.
insaniak wrote: We're all doomed... but that's going to take a while, and in the meantime, there's room for stories of heroism, greed, selfishness, selflessness... people doing great things, because they need to be done, people doing horrible things, because they can, and people just getting on with their lives, as best they can.
insaniak wrote: We're all doomed... but that's going to take a while, and in the meantime, there's room for stories of heroism, greed, selfishness, selflessness... people doing great things, because they need to be done, people doing horrible things, because they can, and people just getting on with their lives, as best they can.
You just described 40k as well.
He just described real life as well. We ARE all doomed (meaning we are all going to die, not that some love quasar is going to kill us all).
My point was that he was using stuff like that as criteria to show Medge isn't grimdark when the exact same criteria apply to 40k as well and it is decidedly grimdark. The way I see it is that you need to look at the single biggest overriding detail of a universe to see if it is grimdark. With 40k, it's listed in the front of almost every non HH book on the first line of a page... " in the grim darkness of the future there is only war". For Medge, you don't even need to look that far... it's IN THE NAME! The name of the game is Maelstrom's Edge. It details stuff that is happening on the cusp of an unstoppably destructive force that is slowly and unstoppably destroying the known universe. That's grimdark, baby!
insaniak wrote: We're all doomed... but that's going to take a while, and in the meantime, there's room for stories of heroism, greed, selfishness, selflessness... people doing great things, because they need to be done, people doing horrible things, because they can, and people just getting on with their lives, as best they can.
You just described 40k as well.
Not really. In 40K, that doom is due any moment now, and in the meantime we're all just meat for the grist and the galaxy wouldn't notice if we weren't here.
There are very few 'normal' people just getting on with 'normal' lives in 40K.
MEdge is like a busload of regular commuters, sliding slowly towards a cliff edge. 40K is more akin to a busload of teenage emos heading full-speed for that cliff, being driven by a maniac on acid whose foot is nailed to the accelerator pedal.
40k's universe is big and much more detailed than others (because of course, it's been around for so long). The whole enclave/empire of Ultramar for example is pictured as pretty much like somewhere like Singapore. Authoritarian government, but relatively free, safe and domesticated (except for that Boxed Set about Macraggae!)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I'm baffled by why this isn't doing better. There are a lot of good minis in plastic, terrain options, and communicative creators. There are a lot of criticism, but considering how much Mantic made per KS, even after KOW1, MEdge should have gotten at least a bit more pledge gaming.
I can think of several reasons
No early birds so no forced rush to pledge (and no incentive for those waiting to pledge to keep checking for EB slots as folk drop out or move up)
A very long (by current KS standards) campaign.. it covers 2 pay days, but means there's no real hurry to get a pledge in
It's a new IP from a new company (even with Dakka as a name behind it) both potentially worrisome to KS backers
No add ons (yet?), so if you don't want it all you're not going to back (again once somebody's backed it's a lot easier for them to justify spending a little more cash for lots more stuff even if they don't really want it)
It's a wargame not a boardgame and I think that does make a real difference, both in terms of there being fewer potential backers, and being less attractive to completionists who will realise they will carry on having to buy stuff for this after the KS (unlike a 'one and done' boardgame)
They're showing the actual minis which are not to everybody's taste both in terms of looks and in terms of proportions (while experienced KS backers disregard concept art, there are plenty of inexperienced ones who DO back based on nice art which it's they assume will end up as perfectly scaled to what they want)
It's been very, very busy on KS in the March/April, lots of wallets and Credit Card are just empty
The pace of reveals of stretch goals etc is slow.... A double edged sword this, showing more might gain more immediate pledges but does run the risk of them running out of stuff to show over the long campaign, and of people starting to panic that stuff they pledged for will not be reached so they pull money causing the campaign to flatline or crash (I think the ME team has it right here, but it is probably another reason things are running slowly)
and this is all going to sound very critical, when most of it isn't
I had a couple of thoughts to add as well.
At first it surprised me. I started looking through some of the other forums as well trying to get a feel for what others have been thinking. (I really want this to succeed).
The thought that's struck me is that the thing which is keeping this from blowing up is the exact same thing that makes it so great: a reasonable and realistic approach to a difficult objective. They want to make a great game with all HIPS. They want to deliver it in a reasonable time frame. They want people to know what they're getting by showing production models. They don't want to over promise which, lets face it, happens all the time.
So we get production models that are good, but not stunning. There may be some proportion issues but I refuse to judge that until I see them in person. We are going to get exactly what we see pretty close to the delivery date, I expect. To do that they won't promise models they can't make for years. As wonderful as the product was, how long did it take Dream Forge to finish up? No matter how much interest a gnolti would generate, I don't think we're going to see it because it wouldn't fit with the plan.
I think it's admirable. I also think the lack of shiny stuff is going to keep this from sky rocketing.
The other thing I noticed is that a lot of folks just glance at it and dismiss it as "not-40k from dakka." They don't look any deeper or even look at the rules preview. Those rules have the potential to be solid gold, but no one is looking at them. I think once SAS starts getting attention for the rules we'll see some more growth.
I haven't chimed in on the discussions about ME thus far but I was discussing the matter in private, and asked to share my thoughts as a connoisseur (of sorts) regarding kickstarter campaigns. My reticence has mainly been on account that A) I really do both respect the people involved, and the fact that they took this incredible risk forward, but B) I... I'm not at all sure they can fix things at this point.
What I mean is that ME is a much more mature product then we're used to seeing on KS as it's basically a finished project: the molds have been cut, the aesthetic decided on, the fiction written (2 books?!). In terms of work put in, they are heads and shoulders above where other campaigns are... but that's a big problem in this particular case.
I think that underlies what we're seeing with the, call it defensiveness, by the people involved. The Corporation faction models are not concept art, they are done. I don't know how much SAS has already invested, but my assumption is that they cannot simply scrap something like, say, all the human figures in the Corporation line.
I've also hesitated to comment because... listen, I realize this is very much a YMMV matter, but I just really don't like a lot of the elements of the game. I'll go on about the aesthetics, but the storyline and universe just really doesn't appeal to me much at all. I'll be blunt, to me the game seems like an attempt to 'fix' 40k by going back to the glory days of... the late 90's? I think I can sum up my problem with the aesthetic with a single image I saw recently;
Spoiler:
That's the three infantry types that Mark's Dreamforge line ultimately produced, and I think it's an amazing example of what hard plastic can do these days. I think of that line, I think of Adam Poots' Kingdom Death line of plastics, but to be fair they are both A) not available yet, and B) in 32mm (+?) scale. So Dreamforge seems like the best comparison for 28mm hard plastics.
And ME simply doesn't stand up particularly well to what Mark is offering. A much less fair comparison;
Spoiler:
ME monsters,
Dreamforge monsters,
Faced with the truth of that, the defensiveness is understandable, but... I mean, the answer I have seen for why the corporate troops looks, uh, the way they do, is "you look at models from several feet away instead of close up," and "ease of distinguishing units/weapons during play". Which are both fine in theory: that's the reasoning for the exaggerated style and limitations on customization that characterize WM/Hordes. But WM/Hordes grew to where it is by emphasizing the "play like you got a pair", tournament-centric mindset that characterized CCGs like Magic. The people (at least at the start, I believe) attracted to that game were people less inclined to care much about aesthetics. it was also years ago, when GW had far less competition, and nothing to speak of for plastics. I'm not sure that you can get away with that same gambit today, and even if you could, ME isn't being sold in a way that takes advantage of that same mindset.
That is one of the oddest things: (to me at least) this game really appeals best as '40k done right'. But the SAS folk are adamant that it isn't, that any and all similarities are purely coincidental. Which is just silly.
The argument that the figures are designed for table-top viewing also fails to take into account another factor: I know that I buy a huge amount of my models simply because I like models and I like to own beautiful things. I doubt that I am alone in having many models that have been painstakingly assembled and painted, only to rarely if ever actually see the surface of a game table. I own Dreamforge models simply because I like the way they look, and they are far from the only such entities in my collection. Consider, for example, these models from the last update of the Fallen Frontiers campaign;
Spoiler:
These figures 'feel' modern, in a way that the ME figures simply don't.
I won't go too much into the setting in this post, save to say that my limited exposure to it has engendered an intense dislike of it. It is one of the most nihilistic settings in contemporary sci-fi, certainly in my experience. It is literally nihilistic: even in 40k, while the Imperium of Man teeters on the brink, that apocalyptic fall won't be the destruction of the universe/galaxy. Countless Tau, Orks, Chaos Worshippers, assorted other Xenos, sentient Necron machine entities, etc, etc, will survive and, indeed, perhaps prosper. The ME universe, by contrast, is on a countdown to complete destruction.
The ME universe seems, to me, almost totally unsuited for the setting of a war game: say what you will about the Imperium of Man, but the role of the player in the game is, in a narrative sense, important. The threats the universe of 40k is concerned with are martial in nature: ravaging hordes of monsters, subtle and corrupting cultists, encroaching empires. In ME, the overarching threat is utterly indifferent to the activities of the players: the deep mysteries of the setting are a subject for scientists, explorers and inventors, not generals or warriors. The player takes on the role of a bystander, limited to fighting battles of ultimately no importance for, at best, Pyrrhic victories.
I don't want to go on about the setting, so I'll stop there. I'm trying to develop some ideas on how to improve performance, but I am genuinely afraid that there is too little left that can be changed to actually make a difference.
Buzzsaw wrote: The ME universe seems, to me, almost totally unsuited for the setting of a war game: say what you will about the Imperium of Man, but the role of the player in the game is, in a narrative sense, important. The threats the universe of 40k is concerned with are martial in nature: ravaging hordes of monsters, subtle and corrupting cultists, encroaching empires. In ME, the overarching threat is utterly indifferent to the activities of the players: the deep mysteries of the setting are a subject for scientists, explorers and inventors, not generals or warriors. The player takes on the role of a bystander, limited to fighting battles of ultimately no importance for, at best, Pyrrhic victories.
I think I can see where you would come to that viewpoint, but it's not what I get from the setting.
To me, as I mentioned earlier, the Maelstrom provides a reason for the conflict, but ultimately the battles are no less 'important' or part of the narrative than they are in 40K. Conflict in 40K is largely about territory... the Imperium wants to control their slice of the galaxy, and preferably the rest of it as well, and everyone else wants their part of the galaxy. Battles ensue.
In MEdge, the conflict is ultimately driven by the Maelstrom, rather than factions just being territorialistic, but the battles achieve the same end - survival in a galaxy that wants to kill them, and carving out their own space in spite of a whole bunch of threats that all want their own space.
And it's worth keeping in mind as well that the Maelstrom being the end of everything is not a given. It might stop of its own accord. It might be stopped by someone coming up with something clever. The Karists might be right. Or there might be some other way of escaping it that hasn't been revealed yet. And that's another part of what I'm looking forward to with this. It's a universe that has been built from the ground up to be able to evolve later on. 40K doesn't have that. As much as a game setting doesn't have to move, the clock always being set at two minutes to midnight is one of the most frequent complaints that I've seen about 40K's setting. For 40K, the setting is the game. For MEdge, it's just the starting point.
I would like to say, as someone who (despite not having much presence on the forum) has followed the KS since day one, without pledging, I am most definitely interested. I've been reading a few topics on Medge recently, and one of the things i hear people keep saying is 'it's bad because its KS fund hasn't rocketed up,' at least, that's the vibe I get. I personally, am holding off pledging simply to see where it is going. I am most definitely pledging at least for the box - I love the previews of the rules, the miniatures (alright not all of them) and the way the fluff manages to have a setting that is both hard(er) sci-fi, and makes you think about the morality of different actions and courses. I am mainly holding off to make sure i have the spare funds, and to wait to see if there will be more add-ons (fingers crossed for some more Epirian drones, Scarecrows etc.). I think that there are quite a number of people out there who hold the same opinion (although i might be wrong, and i could be the only one. Meh.) and hold a strong conviction that there will be quite a hike in the KS pledge level in the last week of the KS.
As for the models, they all look good, although I do agree with most of the complaints about the Epirian contractors, however i can't wait to get my hands upon the Epirian drones. Yes, the scarecrow is impractical to a certain degree, yes, the flight drones need better propulsion, but they do look awesome. And they do have the suspension of disbelief that is needed in hard sci-fi - a flying drone with only 2 rotors could work, and yes, humanoid 'scary' robots could work.
A lot of people are saying that the universe seems too much like 40k, and while some of those points are valid, is that such a bad thing? From what i've seen, it hasn't really used any of 40k's 'bad' traits, (heroic scale aside, i actually quite like it) and it does differ quite a ways from it's 'Grimdark' setting. While most people argue that 'Grimdark' is to do with the setting, i will counter by saying that Grimdark is just as reliant upon the feel of the universe and fluff - and Medge does a great job of having the grimdark setting, without having a grimdark feel to the fluff. I personally think this is great, although i'm sure some will disagree.
In summary, Great job SAS, yes, there are things for you to improve upon, but there are also many things which you have nailed. Keep up the good fluff, it really is a great break from the OTT grim-darkness of 40k (Which is good in it's own right, don't get me wrong), and has a great depth, which i'm sure your talented writers can improve upon. I can't wait to see the scarecrow and hunter models, and keep up the good work!
Buzzsaw wrote: The ME universe seems, to me, almost totally unsuited for the setting of a war game: say what you will about the Imperium of Man, but the role of the player in the game is, in a narrative sense, important. The threats the universe of 40k is concerned with are martial in nature: ravaging hordes of monsters, subtle and corrupting cultists, encroaching empires. In ME, the overarching threat is utterly indifferent to the activities of the players: the deep mysteries of the setting are a subject for scientists, explorers and inventors, not generals or warriors. The player takes on the role of a bystander, limited to fighting battles of ultimately no importance for, at best, Pyrrhic victories.
I think I can see where you would come to that viewpoint, but it's not what I get from the setting.
To me, as I mentioned earlier, the Maelstrom provides a reason for the conflict, but ultimately the battles are no less 'important' or part of the narrative than they are in 40K. Conflict in 40K is largely about territory... the Imperium wants to control their slice of the galaxy, and preferably the rest of it as well, and everyone else wants their part of the galaxy. Battles ensue.
In MEdge, the conflict is ultimately driven by the Maelstrom, rather than factions just being territorialistic, but the battles achieve the same end - survival in a galaxy that wants to kill them, and carving out their own space in spite of a whole bunch of threats that all want their own space.
As I pointed out, much of my points are of the YMMV type (although I can't help but hear the voice of Harry Plinkett "it's a matter of opinion but mine is right"). That said, I am utterly unpersuaded by this notion. The Maelstrom as an instigator of conflict rings so false to me, on so many levels, that it's difficult to boil them down... so I'll just spit out a few of the ways I find it objectionable;
-A major third-party threat as a source of conflict, rather then cooperation. There is a reason that overarching threats have been used to bring warring sides together in fiction, because that's what they do in real life. Whether it's the galaxy threatening Yuuzang Vong bringing the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic together in the Star Wars universe, Unicron bringing Optimus Prime and Megatron together, GI Joe and Cobra uniting to battle... uh, a fat man, Buffy and Spike fighting Angel, Master Chief and the Arbiter fighting... whoever that was, and so on.
This is, of course, a reference to real life. The proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is ancient enough to be claimed by many cultures, and as for the ur example, well... 'nuff said.
Spoiler:
-The idea that the Maelstrom is needed for conflict: I've seen several people from the SAS team talk about how the Maelstrom "explains" conflict, and how they "needed" this to instigate and be the driver of conflict in the setting. Because, as we all know, in the absence of an apocalyptic threat, humanity is just too darned peaceful.
I don't like the setting of 40k, but in this regard it's actually (IMO, and only in a small way) superior to the ME conceit.
insaniak wrote: And it's worth keeping in mind as well that the Maelstrom being the end of everything is not a given. It might stop of its own accord. It might be stopped by someone coming up with something clever. The Karists might be right. Or there might be some other way of escaping it that hasn't been revealed yet. And that's another part of what I'm looking forward to with this. It's a universe that has been built from the ground up to be able to evolve later on. 40K doesn't have that. As much as a game setting doesn't have to move, the clock always being set at two minutes to midnight is one of the most frequent complaints that I've seen about 40K's setting. For 40K, the setting is the game. For MEdge, it's just the starting point.
First, this is simply wrong, or to be more generous, unsupported: from the Kickstarter main page "The apocalypse is coming inexorably to every planet on the Edge." So... yeah, the word 'apocalypse' or 'apocalyptic' is used no less then 3 times. Literally the first bullet point on the main kickstarter page is "A 'slow apocalypse' sci-fi universe supported by years of writing and published novels."
Now, are such things possible? Of course... but only because there is so little that has actually been delineated. It's possible they'll introduce Jews in Spaaaaaaace, but I have some doubts about it.
By the way, I see that the front page of the campaign has been changed: am I the only one that no longer sees any reference to "hard sci-fi"? Last time I looked I distinctly remembered seeing such a things mentioned (I know because I found it a ridiculous thing to claim).
EDIT: Looking at the front page, I'm actually noticing that a number of things I thought were there are no longer there. Wasn't there a whole section with 5 or so bullet points about the game? That section seems, rather then the points being expanded on, to have simply been deleted.
The thing I find most depressing about the setting is that it's like ten thousand years in the future and very little has changed. Apparently humanity has basically peaked and all we can look forwards to is more of those screens from NCIS where they move windows around with touch gestures. The Amazon drone is the pinnacle of human technology, and so it will be forevermore.
(Though it's weird, because the setting mentions a few things as new or state of the art, like maybe humanity just decided to put a pause on technological progress for ten thousand years for the heck of it and then start up again.)
It very much feels like it's trying to recall the earlier 40k on so many levels, but with some Firefly or whatever thrown in.
Buzzsaw wrote: By the way, I see that the front page of the campaign has been changed: am I the only one that no longer sees any reference to "hard sci-fi"? Last time I looked I distinctly remembered seeing such a things mentioned (I know because I found it a ridiculous thing to claim).
When I looked back over the other thread some days ago, the first reference I could find was a non-SAS poster calling it "more hard" and then someone from SAS talking about it being "harder" (as in harder than soft, not harder than hard).
Buzzsaw wrote: -A major third-party threat as a source of conflict, rather then cooperation. There is a reason that overarching threats have been used to bring warring sides together in fiction, because that's what they do in real life. Whether it's the galaxy threatening Yuuzang Vong bringing the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic together in the Star Wars universe, Unicron bringing Optimus Prime and Megatron together, GI Joe and Cobra uniting to battle... uh, a fat man, Buffy and Spike fighting Angel, Master Chief and the Arbiter fighting... whoever that was, and so on.
This is, of course, a reference to real life. The proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is ancient enough to be claimed by many cultures, and as for the ur example, well... 'nuff said.
Spoiler:
The thing is, all of those examples you've given are threats that can clearly be opposed. The Maelstrom isn't... it's a (presumably) force of nature, and the various factions all banding together, in this situation, just means fewer resources for everybody.
Of course, it's also possible that I just have a slightly less optimistic view of humanity than you do
-The idea that the Maelstrom is needed for conflict: I've seen several people from the SAS team talk about how the Maelstrom "explains" conflict, and how they "needed" this to instigate and be the driver of conflict in the setting. Because, as we all know, in the absence of an apocalyptic threat, humanity is just too darned peaceful.
Ultimately, what the Maelstrom adds is chaos. And chaos is essential for a setting unless you're going to limit who each faction can fight against. Otherwise, you end up with games that don't make a lot of sense.
This is something that's always bugged me with most games. While there are all sorts of potential reasons for factions to be fighting other factions, a game setting also needs to account for those times when you have a single faction fighting itself. Why are these stormtroopers fighting those stormtroopers? Why are these Tau fighting those Tau? And so on.
40K goes some[i] way towards covering that, but there are any number of times where a match-up just winds up feeling [i]odd.
The Maelstrom provides a setting where, on the edge, everyone is ultimately out to save themselves. And so it's entirely conceivable for different Epirian branches to wind up at odds with each other.
First, this is simply wrong, or to be more generous, unsupported: from the Kickstarter main page "The apocalypse is coming inexorably to every planet on the Edge." So... yeah, the word 'apocalypse' or 'apocalyptic' is used no less then 3 times. Literally the first bullet point on the main kickstarter page is "A 'slow apocalypse' sci-fi universe supported by years of writing and published novels."
Members of the design team have mentioned in the news thread that the plan is to evolve the setting over time, and it was covered right at the start that the origin and exact nature of the Maelstrom is something to potentially be explored later.
So the initial setting is as explained in the Kickstarter - the End is coming. But what actually happens later is very much up in the air.
As opposed to, say, 40K, where it's a reasonably safe bet that in another 20 years time we'll still be sitting right at the end of the 41st millenium, with nothing much changed other than a whole bunch of extra units being added in.
The Maelstrom doesn't bring only conflict. The Karists wouldn't have got together and united in faith with out it. The Broken would not be forming alliances and brotherhoods without it. The Artarians wouldn't be the society they are today without it. There are many, many examples of the Maelstrom bringing people together. But no one wants to play games about those!
insaniak wrote: Ultimately, what the Maelstrom adds is chaos. And chaos is essential for a setting unless you're going to limit who each faction can fight against. Otherwise, you end up with games that don't make a lot of sense.
It is impossible to prevent this, because even if you make up an excuse for sub-factions to fight against one another, there's nothing stopping two people from deciding to make the same army - "the Defenders of Delta Prime" or whatever - and having those two armies fight against one another. Why bother trying to make sure anything can be canon by undermining the reason people would actually care if it's canon or not?
insaniak wrote: And it's worth keeping in mind as well that the Maelstrom being the end of everything is not a given. It might stop of its own accord. It might be stopped by someone coming up with something clever. The Karists might be right. Or there might be some other way of escaping it that hasn't been revealed yet. And that's another part of what I'm looking forward to with this. It's a universe that has been built from the ground up to be able to evolve later on. 40K doesn't have that. As much as a game setting doesn't have to move, the clock always being set at two minutes to midnight is one of the most frequent complaints that I've seen about 40K's setting. For 40K, the setting is the game. For MEdge, it's just the starting point.
Is that necessarily a good thing? Because I can think of two examples - Mass Effect and Battlestar Galactica - where the attempted resolution didn't just not work, they were so stupid and out of place people still hold grudges over them years later.
If the setting eventually becomes better, why not start the story at that point instead? Start things off after the initial exodus ends, as everybody realises that they're no longer running for their lives from an all-consuming doom that seems to have stopped. Epirians eye the Karists with suspicion, perhaps believing that a few drive failures during the escape were not misfortune but sabotage by this death cult who wanted to be overrun by the Maelstrom. Stragglers come up from behind, rather pissed that they didn't make it into the first wave of refugees and were left to die. Things like that.
AlexHolker wrote: If the setting eventually becomes better, why not start the story at that point instead? .
Fair point, I suppose. How awesome would Star Wars have been if it had actually started at the point where the Empire had been overthrown and peace had been restored to the galaxy?
Actually, I'm not sure 'awesome' is the right word, there.
Honestly, I think we're just back into 'can't please everybody' territory. For me, it's the fact that everything's up the crapper, while still having that hope of turning around somewhere giving people a reason to keep trying, that makes the setting interesting. Obviously you're looking for something different.
AlexHolker wrote: If the setting eventually becomes better, why not start the story at that point instead? .
Fair point, I suppose. How awesome would Star Wars have been if it had actually started at the point where the Empire had been overthrown and peace had been restored to the galaxy?
Actually, I'm not sure 'awesome' is the right word, there.
Star Wars is not a setting where the status quo is that everyone, everywhere is going to die in a fire. As far as we knew the destruction of Alderaan was an unprecedented loss of life, and that was intended as a one-off to intimidate everyone else.
AlexHolker wrote: If the setting eventually becomes better, why not start the story at that point instead? .
Fair point, I suppose. How awesome would Star Wars have been if it had actually started at the point where the Empire had been overthrown and peace had been restored to the galaxy?
Actually, I'm not sure 'awesome' is the right word, there.
Star Wars is not a setting where the status quo is that everyone, everywhere is going to die in a fire. As far as we knew the destruction of Alderaan was an unprecedented loss of life, and that was intended as a one-off to intimidate everyone else.
With respect, that's not what our universe is about. Not everyone is going to die in Maelstrom's Edge. Space is a big, big place, and the worlds that are on the Edge are a tiny fraction of the worlds that remain in the Spiral Arm. We have thousands of worlds further away from the Edge left to explore, where business as usual is going on. The Maelstrom is approaching those worlds, but it's not going to wipe the whole galaxy off the map in the space of a single lifetime. It's taken a thousand years to get to this point, and it will take several thousand more to get to the other edge of the galaxy. If you want to have battles in the 'peaceful' part of the galaxy, then that is certainly available to you - but as insaniak said, is that really as interesting a setting for a wargame?
What the Maelstrom does mean though, is that the people on the worlds close to the Edge have difficult choices to make about what to do next. Do they abandon their belongings and get away as soon as possible? Do they stay and try to make the most money exploiting the resources before they are destroyed? Do they play pirate, preying on the refugee columns streaming away from the Edge? How about those that voluntarily choose to go back to the doomed worlds, trying to rescue as many people as they can, or save some priceless artefact? Perhaps some may even devote their lives to finding a way to stop the Maelstrom. There's plenty of room for heroes, villains, hope and despair. I've really enjoyed writing stories in that context, and I'm excited about the many possibilities there are in the future.
The thing we wanted to do most of all when creating our setting was to provide a compelling reason for the fighting that makes up the bread and butter of any wargame. We didn't want to have a setting where there were these huge wars just because a certain alien just liked fighting, or because one or the other race just wanted to destroy everything (for no really good reason). We want to have kickass technology and characters and fantastic, enjoyable battles, but if we could also make sense of them in terms of the background motivations of the factions, even better!
We've spent a lot of time designing a setting where it made sense that there would be a lot of battles, whilst not making it a completely unwinnable scenario for anyone to escape the Maelstrom. The speed of the Maelstrom's expansion and the way that people travel through the cybel network are very intentionally designed so that it's challenging for people to escape but that there's still hope - you can read more about our designs of both on the updates on the Kickstarter:
I am very proud of the universe we've designed and I think it's a great place to explore, which leaves room for both conflict and hope. If the setting isn't for you, that's fair enough, but for me it's been a blast writing stories for Maelstrom's Edge, and people seem to be enjoying reading them. I think there's a lot more to it than what you're saying here, and I'd like to think that as we reveal more about it over the next few weeks, people will like what we've made.
SexierThanYou13 wrote: People keep saying is 'it's bad because its KS fund hasn't rocketed up,'
...
I am mainly holding off to make sure i have the spare funds, and to wait to see if there will be more add-ons
...
I think that there are quite a number of people out there who hold the same opinion, and hold a strong conviction that there will be quite a hike in the KS pledge level in the last week of the KS.
Kickstarter campaigns tend to follow quite a predictable curve. You are right, there are a number of people like you, and there will be a big hike during the last week, that's completely normal and expected. However, it will likely be in proportion with what we've already seen.
SexierThanYou13 wrote: People keep saying is 'it's bad because its KS fund hasn't rocketed up,' ... I am mainly holding off to make sure i have the spare funds, and to wait to see if there will be more add-ons ... I think that there are quite a number of people out there who hold the same opinion, and hold a strong conviction that there will be quite a hike in the KS pledge level in the last week of the KS.
Kickstarter campaigns tend to follow quite a predictable curve. You are right, there are a number of people like you, and there will be a big hike during the last week, that's completely normal and expected. However, it will likely be in proportion with what we've already seen.
Fair enough, and i certainly wasn't denying that it hasn't been as successful as it could have been, I was just bringing up the point that judging a project's overall success due to the first couple of weeks of it's KS isn't a fair judgement. If you were to come after the KS and say then that it hadn't done well, (providing it actually didn't do well) then that would be a fair assumption. Yes, KS campaigns tend follow a certain curve, but there is always the chance that they wont, and that is all i am bringing up.
On another note, the Epirian Contractors are actually starting to grow on me, i seem to be disliking them less and less as i see more of them. Is anyone else getting this, or is it just me?
Looking forward to seeing the hunter and scarecrow add-ons!
Edit: Am I the only one that noticed in around half of the karist trooper images there is only five of them? I think there are only about two images (Overall 'box' shot, and alll the karist minis) that show all six, what's with that?
Fair enough, and i certainly wasn't denying that it hasn't been as successful as it could have been, I was just bringing up the point that judging a project's overall success due to the first couple of weeks of it's KS isn't a fair judgement. If you were to come after the KS and say then that it hadn't done well, (providing it actually didn't do well) then that would be a fair assumption. Yes, KS campaigns tend follow a certain curve, but there is always the chance that they wont, and that is all i am bringing up.
There really isn't. The best they can hope for, unless they pile tons and tons of additional miniatures into the box to make it "too good to pass up" you can expect the last day to look pretty similar to the first day. The real question will be whether or not the campaign starts to lose money and backers over the oh-too-long course of the campaign. 40 days is way too long, and there are certainly other KSes that will come during that time frame that will siphon some money from it.
On another note, the Epirian Contractors are actually starting to grow on me, i seem to be disliking them less and less as i see more of them. Is anyone else getting this, or is it just me?
It's probably just you. What's making them grow on you that makes them better than the first time you saw them?
On another note, the Epirian Contractors are actually starting to grow on me, i seem to be disliking them less and less as i see more of them. Is anyone else getting this, or is it just me?
It's probably just you. What's making them grow on you that makes them better than the first time you saw them?
Dude, get over yourself. You don't like this game, we got that many pages ago. I know it's a shocker, but like any game (yes, even 40k!), your opinion of the models can improve after initial expectations.
cincydooley wrote: 40 days is way too long, and there are certainly other KSes that will come during that time frame that will siphon some money from it.
Yeah, 20~30 Days is more the sweet spot. Also not pulling a GW and giving a bit more of a build up before launch would have been good IMO.
Yeah, I had a similar reaction to Logan Clause. Hated it on first sight, but came to quite liked it once I remembered to stop taking 40k models so seriously.
First impressions can quite often differ from later ones.
insaniak wrote: Yeah, I had a similar reaction to Logan Clause. Hated it on first sight, but came to quite liked it once I remembered to stop taking 40k models so seriously.
First impressions can quite often differ from later ones.
I haven't really had that turnaround with Logan Claus but I have had my fair share of "oh, that looks terrible" changing to "hey, that's not bad at all!"
Cyporiean wrote: Yeah, 20~30 Days is more the sweet spot. Also not pulling a GW and giving a bit more of a build up before launch would have been good IMO.
It's hard to argue with that. There was definitely too little of a build up time in my view, too. Especially given how much time they've had, having spent so long in designing it all.
Dude, get over yourself. You don't like this game, we got that many pages ago. I know it's a shocker, but like any game (yes, even 40k!), your opinion of the models can improve after initial expectations.
Which is why I asked.
Thanks for your input, however. It's certainly valued.
Dude, get over yourself. You don't like this game, we got that many pages ago. I know it's a shocker, but like any game (yes, even 40k!), your opinion of the models can improve after initial expectations.
Which is why I asked.
Thanks for your input, however. It's certainly valued.
You didn't just ask. You said "it's probably just you" as if it was IMPOSSIBLE to change your mind about the project (God forbid someone change their mind about those thrice-damned Epicarians!). You could have said the second part and just left it at that, but for some reason you felt you needed to be snarky about his/her comment.
Accolade wrote: You could have said the second part and just left it at that, but for some reason you felt you needed to be snarky about his/her comment.
That was an option??
Well gak, I'll make sure I take advantage of it next time when cutting through the rah rah sycophancy. Thanks!
Whatever man, all I'm saying was there was no reason to be snarky about someone having a positive comment about this game. If you're just going to snarl back, then we're not going to get anywhere.
I had just about finished my reply to insaniak when I realized that becoming stuck-in on the setting is counterproductive. The simple fact is that I don't like the setting, I don't like the conceit and I don't like the aesthetic ("other then that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?"). I appreciate that I am, therefore, not the target audience. So you can skip down below the spoiler for my attempts at a somewhat more productive input.
Buzzsaw wrote: -A major third-party threat as a source of conflict, rather then cooperation. There is a reason that overarching threats have been used to bring warring sides together in fiction, because that's what they do in real life. Whether it's the galaxy threatening Yuuzang Vong bringing the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic together in the Star Wars universe, Unicron bringing Optimus Prime and Megatron together, GI Joe and Cobra uniting to battle... uh, a fat man, Buffy and Spike fighting Angel, Master Chief and the Arbiter fighting... whoever that was, and so on.
This is, of course, a reference to real life. The proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is ancient enough to be claimed by many cultures, and as for the ur example, well... 'nuff said.
<image snipped>
The thing is, all of those examples you've given are threats that can clearly be opposed. The Maelstrom isn't... it's a (presumably) force of nature, and the various factions all banding together, in this situation, just means fewer resources for everybody.
You actually highlight an element of the problem: normally (as in the examples I gave) a 3rd party threat in a setting is of the same genre. That is, Unicron is a giant robot in a universe of giant robots, the Yuuzang Vong are another military force in a universe of competing military forces, and so on.
The problem of the Maelstrom, thematically, is that it is a disaster movie premise: the Poseidon Adventure, the Towering Inferno, Deep Impact. But the theme of the game is military conflict/adventure. This is what I mean by the player being a 'bystander': the threat of the Maelstrom will be investigated by men and women in lab coats, not flack jackets.
In a way, it's like having a disaster movie, say Deep Impact, but instead of following the scientists and astronauts on their way to the asteroid, the movie focuses on the riot control cops. You probably could make an interesting movie with that premise, but the problem becomes anchoring the viewer (psychologically) to why they should care about the action.
-The idea that the Maelstrom is needed for conflict: I've seen several people from the SAS team talk about how the Maelstrom "explains" conflict, and how they "needed" this to instigate and be the driver of conflict in the setting. Because, as we all know, in the absence of an apocalyptic threat, humanity is just too darned peaceful.
Ultimately, what the Maelstrom adds is chaos. And chaos is essential for a setting unless you're going to limit who each faction can fight against. Otherwise, you end up with games that don't make a lot of sense.
This is something that's always bugged me with most games. While there are all sorts of potential reasons for factions to be fighting other factions, a game setting also needs to account for those times when you have a single faction fighting itself. Why are these stormtroopers fighting those stormtroopers? Why are these Tau fighting those Tau? And so on.
40K goes some[i] way towards covering that, but there are any number of times where a match-up just winds up feeling [i]odd.
The Maelstrom provides a setting where, on the edge, everyone is ultimately out to save themselves. And so it's entirely conceivable for different Epirian branches to wind up at odds with each other.
Ehhh... to be frank, I find the idea that they need the Maelstrom to justify mirror matches... very weak. Is there an in-universe explanation in WM/Hordes for why not only are the same factions fighting each other, but exact copies of the same individuals? For that matter, presuming that in ME there will unique characters, the conceit of the Maelstrom doesn't touch on why mirror matches would be happening at all anyway.
This is an inherent problem in all competitive games (where the players chose things like fighters/factions/etc), one that I properly think can usually just be ignored. It's also worth pointing out that having the fluff control what happens in the game often pisses people off: witness the 'Save the Caskuda' campaign that resulted after CB scrapped a series of models. Or having Ko Dali switch factions in fluff and then having her original profile disallowed.
First, this is simply wrong, or to be more generous, unsupported: from the Kickstarter main page "The apocalypse is coming inexorably to every planet on the Edge." So... yeah, the word 'apocalypse' or 'apocalyptic' is used no less then 3 times. Literally the first bullet point on the main kickstarter page is "A 'slow apocalypse' sci-fi universe supported by years of writing and published novels."
Members of the design team have mentioned in the news thread that the plan is to evolve the setting over time, and it was covered right at the start that the origin and exact nature of the Maelstrom is something to potentially be explored later.
So the initial setting is as explained in the Kickstarter - the End is coming. But what actually happens later is very much up in the air.
As opposed to, say, 40K, where it's a reasonably safe bet that in another 20 years time we'll still be sitting right at the end of the 41st millenium, with nothing much changed other than a whole bunch of extra units being added in.
See below.
One of the points that insaniak makes in rebuttal to me is emblematic of a problem the campaign suffers from: lack of cohesiveness of message. I pointed out that 'apocalypse' was a term much bandied about on the kickstarter main page. He replied that the design team has intimated "that the plan is to evolve the setting over time". So, my first bullet point for the campaign;
-Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? I previously had pointed out that the term "Hard Sci-Fi" seems to have been completely expunged from the kickstarter main page. It's disappeared so thoroughly that I had to look back in this thread to make sure I hadn't imagined seeing it.
Why would a term like "Hard Sci-Fi" be prominently featured in the first iteration of the campaign page, then disappear? The game hasn't changed, nor has the background. My assumption is that either complaints were made about how the game didn't justify the term, or people asked what made it "Hard Sci-Fi", and no (or few) satisfactory answers were forthcoming. Why does the campaign main page make prominent reference to "slow apocalypse setting", but team members are, in various places, walking back the idea of this as an apocalyptic setting?
This causes confusion in the potential pledge, because it indicates to the observer that there is confusion in the team. Is this game intended to appeal to the Hard Sci-Fi crowd (who that would be I'm not sure)? If so, how so? Is it intended to appeal to the apocalypse gamer, a sort of fusion of the survival horror tone of settings like Mad Max/Walking Dead and Warhammer 40k, a sort of Zombiecide in space? If so, what impact if any does the looming apocalypse have inside the game? What makes it an "apocalypse" game, a "gritty science fiction universe of desperate survival"?
Which leads to the second bullet;
-What is the selling point of this game? This is a 28mm scale squad based skirmish war game. It has hard plastic figures, which is very much a rarity for a kickstarter property. On the other hand, the miniatures suffer from aesthetic design choices: no small number of people have pointed out that they feel "like they are out of the 90's".
On the other hand, you have a rules system designed by someone that has been working on tournament level rules for years and organizing tournaments for even longer (I think, correct me if that's wrong). But the rules on the KS main page merit no more then a single section, that has all of 3 sentences including a link to a PDF. What is the fundamental principle that underlies the rules? Is it balanced play for tournaments that is still fun? Is it a system that rewards mastery (ala WM?Horder), where someone that has mastered the game can unleash devastating combos? Is it a "simple to learn, difficult to master" rules set that limits tactical options in favor of speed and flexibility of play?
If you were to compare ME with a computer game, would it be more like Starcraft, where you need to micromanage many interdependent units (more similar to 40k), or more like a MOBA such as Heroes of the Storm or DOTA/LOL, where a single unit is paramont to strategy and importance (more akin to WM/Hordes)?
-What's with the... What explains some of the design decisions that just seem, well, inexplicable?
For example, knowing nothing but the name, I would presume at first guess that the "Cybel Network" was some sort of cybernetic link between individuals. I would be going off the general use (especially in sci-fi) of the prefix 'cyb-' to indicate a human-machine interface (cyborg, cybernetics, Cyberdyne Systems, Cybermen, etc) and network. Why use this term for a "gossamer web of dark energy threads stretching between every star"? Also, why use a word that is not obvious in pronunciation when it is such a common feature of the setting? For the record, I'm inclined to say it 'Sybel', pronouncing the 'cy-' as 'psi'.
Why "Zycanthus"? That sounds like the name of a neutral evil outsider from the 3rd edition Fiend Folio. You have a corporation that makes their money off of terraforming planets, and they are called... Epirian? The fanatical and secretive religious factions are... the Karists?
It's not that these names are bad, per se, but none of them readily convey information about the things they name. Just spitballing, but if the ramshackle militia of construction workers were, say, the Geodynamics Security Auxiluries, that may be a lame name, but it tells you something about that faction instantly. Similarly, if the faction obsessed with transcending the mortal plane by way of the Maelstrom were, say, the Ascension Jihad, or simply the Ascension, that would tell you something instantly (and note that the former name tells you something very different from the latter name).
Consider: one doesn't need to know anything about the Dune universe to know that the Butlerian Jihad wasn't characterized by people eating cotton candy.
I'm sure that each and every one of these questions has an answer: the real question is, how best to convey that information to the kickstarter browser. Secondarily, after that decision is made, how best can eyes be brought to bear on the campaign.
Finally, to end on an up note: in addition to the game being very polished for a kickstarter property, the intro video is very, very nice. The CGI, the art and the narrator especially, man, that is a great VO job there.
On another note, the Epirian Contractors are actually starting to grow on me, i seem to be disliking them less and less as i see more of them. Is anyone else getting this, or is it just me?
I liked the Epirians from the get go with some reservations. The more I see them though the more I like them and the more those reservations are going away. So I don't think you're alone.
Accolade wrote: Whatever man, all I'm saying was there was no reason to be snarky about someone having a positive comment about this game. If you're just going to snarl back, then we're not going to get anywhere.
Many of us have tried to be constructively critical of the game and why we won't back it, with the hope that it'll be beneficial in the "next steps" phase of the game.
Nearly every time it's been shot down as "you're wrong" or with some other sycophantic commentary.
I have no doubt the rules will be solid to great, but rules don't sell miniatures games in 2015. Models do. And there are some real problems with these models that I fear exist because there was too much "yessing" during the design phase and not enough honest critique.
Accolade wrote: Whatever man, all I'm saying was there was no reason to be snarky about someone having a positive comment about this game. If you're just going to snarl back, then we're not going to get anywhere.
Many of us have tried to be constructively critical of the game and why we won't back it, with the hope that it'll be beneficial in the "next steps" phase of the game.
Nearly every time it's been shot down as "you're wrong" or with some other sycophantic commentary.
I have no doubt the rules will be solid to great, but rules don't sell miniatures games in 2015. Models do. And there are some real problems with these models that I fear exist because there was too much "yessing" during the design phase and not enough honest critique.
Right, and I understand all of that. I will agree that there are many things I wish the game designers had done differently to really make this game immensely successful. But I don't understand how gaking on another person's comment about liking the models helps further your (probably legitimate) complaints against the game.
Nearly every time it's been shot down as "you're wrong" or with some other sycophantic commentary.
.
Charming.
Have you considered that people offering opinions that differ from yours might be doing so because they actually disagree with you, rather than that they are just 'sycophants'?
You don't like the models. That's fine. Others do, and don't think the things you dislike about the models are actually a problem. That doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong... Just that some people disagree with it.
Buzzsaw wrote: I had just about finished my reply to insaniak when I realized that becoming stuck-in on the setting is counterproductive. The simple fact is that I don't like the setting, I don't like the conceit and I don't like the aesthetic ("other then that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?"). I appreciate that I am, therefore, not the target audience. So you can skip down below the spoiler for my attempts at a somewhat more productive input.
Buzzsaw wrote: -A major third-party threat as a source of conflict, rather then cooperation. There is a reason that overarching threats have been used to bring warring sides together in fiction, because that's what they do in real life. Whether it's the galaxy threatening Yuuzang Vong bringing the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic together in the Star Wars universe, Unicron bringing Optimus Prime and Megatron together, GI Joe and Cobra uniting to battle... uh, a fat man, Buffy and Spike fighting Angel, Master Chief and the Arbiter fighting... whoever that was, and so on.
This is, of course, a reference to real life. The proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is ancient enough to be claimed by many cultures, and as for the ur example, well... 'nuff said. <image snipped>
The thing is, all of those examples you've given are threats that can clearly be opposed. The Maelstrom isn't... it's a (presumably) force of nature, and the various factions all banding together, in this situation, just means fewer resources for everybody.
You actually highlight an element of the problem: normally (as in the examples I gave) a 3rd party threat in a setting is of the same genre. That is, Unicron is a giant robot in a universe of giant robots, the Yuuzang Vong are another military force in a universe of competing military forces, and so on.
The problem of the Maelstrom, thematically, is that it is a disaster movie premise: the Poseidon Adventure, the Towering Inferno, Deep Impact. But the theme of the game is military conflict/adventure. This is what I mean by the player being a 'bystander': the threat of the Maelstrom will be investigated by men and women in lab coats, not flack jackets.
In a way, it's like having a disaster movie, say Deep Impact, but instead of following the scientists and astronauts on their way to the asteroid, the movie focuses on the riot control cops. You probably could make an interesting movie with that premise, but the problem becomes anchoring the viewer (psychologically) to why they should care about the action.
-The idea that the Maelstrom is needed for conflict: I've seen several people from the SAS team talk about how the Maelstrom "explains" conflict, and how they "needed" this to instigate and be the driver of conflict in the setting. Because, as we all know, in the absence of an apocalyptic threat, humanity is just too darned peaceful.
Ultimately, what the Maelstrom adds is chaos. And chaos is essential for a setting unless you're going to limit who each faction can fight against. Otherwise, you end up with games that don't make a lot of sense.
This is something that's always bugged me with most games. While there are all sorts of potential reasons for factions to be fighting other factions, a game setting also needs to account for those times when you have a single faction fighting itself. Why are these stormtroopers fighting those stormtroopers? Why are these Tau fighting those Tau? And so on.
40K goes some[i] way towards covering that, but there are any number of times where a match-up just winds up feeling [i]odd.
The Maelstrom provides a setting where, on the edge, everyone is ultimately out to save themselves. And so it's entirely conceivable for different Epirian branches to wind up at odds with each other.
Ehhh... to be frank, I find the idea that they need the Maelstrom to justify mirror matches... very weak. Is there an in-universe explanation in WM/Hordes for why not only are the same factions fighting each other, but exact copies of the same individuals? For that matter, presuming that in ME there will unique characters, the conceit of the Maelstrom doesn't touch on why mirror matches would be happening at all anyway.
This is an inherent problem in all competitive games (where the players chose things like fighters/factions/etc), one that I properly think can usually just be ignored. It's also worth pointing out that having the fluff control what happens in the game often pisses people off: witness the 'Save the Caskuda' campaign that resulted after CB scrapped a series of models. Or having Ko Dali switch factions in fluff and then having her original profile disallowed.
First, this is simply wrong, or to be more generous, unsupported: from the Kickstarter main page "The apocalypse is coming inexorably to every planet on the Edge." So... yeah, the word 'apocalypse' or 'apocalyptic' is used no less then 3 times. Literally the first bullet point on the main kickstarter page is "A 'slow apocalypse' sci-fi universe supported by years of writing and published novels."
Members of the design team have mentioned in the news thread that the plan is to evolve the setting over time, and it was covered right at the start that the origin and exact nature of the Maelstrom is something to potentially be explored later.
So the initial setting is as explained in the Kickstarter - the End is coming. But what actually happens later is very much up in the air.
As opposed to, say, 40K, where it's a reasonably safe bet that in another 20 years time we'll still be sitting right at the end of the 41st millenium, with nothing much changed other than a whole bunch of extra units being added in.
See below.
One of the points that insaniak makes in rebuttal to me is emblematic of a problem the campaign suffers from: lack of cohesiveness of message. I pointed out that 'apocalypse' was a term much bandied about on the kickstarter main page. He replied that the design team has intimated "that the plan is to evolve the setting over time". So, my first bullet point for the campaign;
-Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? I previously had pointed out that the term "Hard Sci-Fi" seems to have been completely expunged from the kickstarter main page. It's disappeared so thoroughly that I had to look back in this thread to make sure I hadn't imagined seeing it.
Why would a term like "Hard Sci-Fi" be prominently featured in the first iteration of the campaign page, then disappear? The game hasn't changed, nor has the background. My assumption is that either complaints were made about how the game didn't justify the term, or people asked what made it "Hard Sci-Fi", and no (or few) satisfactory answers were forthcoming. Why does the campaign main page make prominent reference to "slow apocalypse setting", but team members are, in various places, walking back the idea of this as an apocalyptic setting?
This causes confusion in the potential pledge, because it indicates to the observer that there is confusion in the team. Is this game intended to appeal to the Hard Sci-Fi crowd (who that would be I'm not sure)? If so, how so? Is it intended to appeal to the apocalypse gamer, a sort of fusion of the survival horror tone of settings like Mad Max/Walking Dead and Warhammer 40k, a sort of Zombiecide in space? If so, what impact if any does the looming apocalypse have inside the game? What makes it an "apocalypse" game, a "gritty science fiction universe of desperate survival"?
Which leads to the second bullet;
-What is the selling point of this game? This is a 28mm scale squad based skirmish war game. It has hard plastic figures, which is very much a rarity for a kickstarter property. On the other hand, the miniatures suffer from aesthetic design choices: no small number of people have pointed out that they feel "like they are out of the 90's".
On the other hand, you have a rules system designed by someone that has been working on tournament level rules for years and organizing tournaments for even longer (I think, correct me if that's wrong). But the rules on the KS main page merit no more then a single section, that has all of 3 sentences including a link to a PDF. What is the fundamental principle that underlies the rules? Is it balanced play for tournaments that is still fun? Is it a system that rewards mastery (ala WM?Horder), where someone that has mastered the game can unleash devastating combos? Is it a "simple to learn, difficult to master" rules set that limits tactical options in favor of speed and flexibility of play?
If you were to compare ME with a computer game, would it be more like Starcraft, where you need to micromanage many interdependent units (more similar to 40k), or more like a MOBA such as Heroes of the Storm or DOTA/LOL, where a single unit is paramont to strategy and importance (more akin to WM/Hordes)?
-What's with the... What explains some of the design decisions that just seem, well, inexplicable?
For example, knowing nothing but the name, I would presume at first guess that the "Cybel Network" was some sort of cybernetic link between individuals. I would be going off the general use (especially in sci-fi) of the prefix 'cyb-' to indicate a human-machine interface (cyborg, cybernetics, Cyberdyne Systems, Cybermen, etc) and network. Why use this term for a "gossamer web of dark energy threads stretching between every star"? Also, why use a word that is not obvious in pronunciation when it is such a common feature of the setting? For the record, I'm inclined to say it 'Sybel', pronouncing the 'cy-' as 'psi'.
Why "Zycanthus"? That sounds like the name of a neutral evil outsider from the 3rd edition Fiend Folio. You have a corporation that makes their money off of terraforming planets, and they are called... Epirian? The fanatical and secretive religious factions are... the Karists?
It's not that these names are bad, per se, but none of them readily convey information about the things they name. Just spitballing, but if the ramshackle militia of construction workers were, say, the Geodynamics Security Auxiluries, that may be a lame name, but it tells you something about that faction instantly. Similarly, if the faction obsessed with transcending the mortal plane by way of the Maelstrom were, say, the Ascension Jihad, or simply the Ascension, that would tell you something instantly (and note that the former name tells you something very different from the latter name).
Consider: one doesn't need to know anything about the Dune universe to know that the Butlerian Jihad wasn't characterized by people eating cotton candy.
I'm sure that each and every one of these questions has an answer: the real question is, how best to convey that information to the kickstarter browser. Secondarily, after that decision is made, how best can eyes be brought to bear on the campaign.
Finally, to end on an up note: in addition to the game being very polished for a kickstarter property, the intro video is very, very nice. The CGI, the art and the narrator especially, man, that is a great VO job there.
Thank you for your thoughts. In regards to the content on the Kickstarter page, there's no conspiracy - there's a word limit to how much you can fit on the page, and as we added updates and the terrain add-on we had to remove some of the earlier material. Nothing in our aims has changed and I'd be happy to reproduce and discuss those bullet points with you. Our intention was never to state that we were going to be hard science fiction in the sense that everything in our universe was based on current understanding of physics, only that we would do our best that when we did invent some new technology, alien race or galaxy-wide phenomenon, we would try to make those inventions internally consistent, so that the universe made sense. I have written equations to how the cybel network works, if you'd like some evidence of that rigour, but I'm not going to claim that a web of dark energy tunnels is in any way a 'hard' science fiction idea - it's something we needed in our universe to have FTL, and so we tried to make something that worked for our universe.
I think you're right that getting across a cohesive message as a new company and game is a difficult thing to do, especially when we've created something that has quite a lot of layers to it. Companies like GW have had years and millions of words of text to get across their universe. But I really feel like we can't win here - if we don't post as much stuff, people make assumptions from the small amount we release at the start, whereas if we release more detail and nuance to what we've created, suddenly the problem is that we don't have have consistency in our message. On the previous page you were complaining that our universe was all-apocalypse and how that wasn't of interest to you (which is fair enough) but when I explained that it was more than just the end of everything, and that there was a wider universe to explore of which the Edge was just one part, suddenly I'm walking back our previous statements? Can they not coexist? We provide a full breakdown of the ruleset, with an overview of the major mechanics, before the game is released, but because that text is too long to put on the main page we are not giving enough information about the core principles? And the naming criticisms feels particularly harsh - how many people knew what a Tau or a Panoceania or a Protectorate of Menoth was before they read more about those games? Also, the names are the Epirian Foundation and Karist Enclave - so they do contain a bit more information than you were stating in your post.
When we started creating Maelstrom's Edge, as wargaming fans, we spent a lot of time looking at forums, especially dakka, at what people were complaining about in terms of the games they were playing and the things they wanted to see. Among the things we felt people wanted most were alternative wargames that were bigger than a skirmish, but not so big you had to spend a ton of money just to get a force to play the game. People wanted a game with better balance and more tactical options at that scale, a universe that was less 'herohammer' with strong worldbuilding and fiction from the start, they liked the idea of multipart plastic rather than inferior materials like restic, and if it was a kickstarter they wanted it to be something that they wouldn't have wait three years before they received it.
Now this isn't going to be a list of what everyone wanted, and we certainly won't have hit on every single thing that people want in a game.We totally accept that we won't have got everything right for everybody, and doubtless there are places where we can improve in the future - and we hope that we can keep building on what we've done and taking advice from all of you to make Maelstrom's Edge better with every release. This is an open forum and you are certainly most welcome to say what you want, but I hope that the way we've tried to reply fairly to questions and criticisms and regularly add more content in our Kickstarter updates to show you more about what we've done could at least turn the conversation to something a little bit more constructive.
I don't know if it helps you at all, darrkespur, but one thing I think can be helpful is to try to keep in mind that almost all criticisms are voiced because the speaker is invested in and cares about the thing they are criticising. So when we are complaining about the tech level or the assless chaps or the square guns or the apocalypse or whatever, it's because we care about the game. <3
insaniak wrote: Have you considered that people offering opinions that differ from yours might be doing so because they actually disagree with you, rather than that they are just 'sycophants'?
Yes, but you seem to be disagreeing with every insinuation that the game isn't perfect. Even though the numbers would indicate that it isn't (which you also seem to disagree with). On a scale of probabilities, you being bias appears much more likely than you being right.
One thing I'd say is that looking at the present starter set, is that as I'm just as likely to use the ME figures in my own settings, the contents aren't exactly making me go WOW! I must have this!
I'm having much the same reaction to the Terminator Genisys starter sets, love the setting, like the figures and I'm just wondering where the rest of the stuff is to justify the pricing.
However this might hopefully change though the kickstarter.
I've so far not backed because I usually don't do kickstarters, hell I dislike pre-ordering.
The Hunters are what I'm waiting to see, like the drones they would be very useful to me in a mulititude of settings which increases the chances that I'm going to go with these instead of an existing product like the Mantic Strider.
Smacks wrote: Yes, but you seem to be disagreeing with every insinuation that the game isn't perfect.
Not every one, no. Just the ones I disagree with.
I'm most certainly somewhat biased towards the game, because I like it and would like to see it succeed. However, trying to discuss why I disagree with certain opinions being presented is not intended to quash discussion, but simply to provide a differing viewpoint, or more information where a view seems to be based on a misapprehension.
Thanks for all the comments everyone! We love that people are engaging with the universe and giving us their honest opinions, so keep them coming. We are definitely listening, and constantly asking ourselves how we can better improve our message and better improve the entire product going forward. We're all in this for the long haul, and this launch is only the first step in creating a really compelling setting, a fast, tense, and thoughtful tabletop game, and a solid line-up of models.
I just wanted to jump in on a few points that have come up over the last few days.
Why would a term like "Hard Sci-Fi" be prominently featured in the first iteration of the campaign page, then disappear? The game hasn't changed, nor has the background. My assumption is that either complaints were made about how the game didn't justify the term, or people asked what made it "Hard Sci-Fi", and no (or few) satisfactory answers were forthcoming. Why does the campaign main page make prominent reference to "slow apocalypse setting", but team members are, in various places, walking back the idea of this as an apocalyptic setting?
As Tomas mentions above, there has been no deliberate decision to remove the term "Hard SF" from the description. KS has a hard limit on the permitted wordcount on the Campaign page, so as we've added more information about Add-Ons etc we've needed to pare down elsewhere. The term "Hard SF" just happened to be in the sections that got cut. We're still "Hard SF" in the sense that, given the scientific "discoveries" we've introduced (wormhole network, annihilating tidal wave of energy), everything should follow logically. That means things like--no jumping from one side of the galaxy to the other, few worlds that you can just turn up at and expect to be habitable straight away, interstellar space being vast and empty etc.
Many of us have tried to be constructively critical of the game and why we won't back it, with the hope that it'll be beneficial in the "next steps" phase of the game.
We're very appreciative of this feedback, and will be taking all the feedback into account for the next steps.
The thing I find most depressing about the setting is that it's like ten thousand years in the future and very little has changed.
Well, I think that depends where you're standing. We have FTL travel, space stations with network gates orbiting stars, contact with alien races, splintered groups of humanity who left on generation ships aeons ago and have evolved into unknown societies, massive terraforming industries, robotics, new forms of energy etc. All those things are profound changes to ourselves and how we would view ourselves. On the other hand, people are still people, with human nature essentially unchanged. They are born (most of them anyway!), have family dynamics, have loves and hates and passions and dreams. Yes, maybe we're all going to be living in little cubes with our brains hooked up to virtual reality and our bodies hooked up to drips, but that scenario doesn't lend itself to much drama, espcially of the tabletop wargaming variety where teams of individuals fight one another using projectile weapons. The other thing is that humanity is massively asymmetrically blessed when it comes to the fruits of our technological labours. We're 3000 years out from the beginning of civilization and yet in places on Earth some people are still scrabbling in the dirt to avoid starvation. Personally, I don't see this kind of inequality changing anytime soon. The future will be shiny, but it will also be squalid.
I won't go too much into the setting in this post, save to say that my limited exposure to it has engendered an intense dislike of it. It is one of the most nihilistic settings in contemporary sci-fi, certainly in my experience. It is literally nihilistic: even in 40k, while the Imperium of Man teeters on the brink, that apocalyptic fall won't be the destruction of the universe/galaxy. Countless Tau, Orks, Chaos Worshippers, assorted other Xenos, sentient Necron machine entities, etc, etc, will survive and, indeed, perhaps prosper. The ME universe, by contrast, is on a countdown to complete destruction.
Again, depends where you're standing. On Earth we have potentially catacylsmic changes coming in less than a century's time due to climate change, but I don't feel much nihilsm right now. Sure, the Pacific islanders really have this stuff on their radar and are feeling deeply scared, but most people are like "Meh, too far away to care about". The same is true of the Maelstrom's Edge universe. The vast majority won't see the Maelstrom in their lifetime due to the colossal distances involved, but for those on Edge worlds its a very real, very scary problem. The first boxset is all about one of these Edge-threatened worlds, Zycanthus, so naturally it's pretty fraught for many there, but further down the Arm it's definitely business-as-usual.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I don't know if it helps you at all, darrkespur, but one thing I think can be helpful is to try to keep in mind that almost all criticisms are voiced because the speaker is invested in and cares about the thing they are criticising. So when we are complaining about the tech level or the assless chaps or the square guns or the apocalypse or whatever, it's because we care about the game. <3
Bingo! Have an exalt.
I remember back in the day when I was managing my university's phonathon I had to drill it into the callers that a person who is pissed off at the university is acually more likely to donate, because they care enough to be pissed off about something.
Better to have someone complain than not care at all.
Well, there has been some pretty great concept art posted.
Personally, I think it is let down pretty badly by the finished product. I really want to like the models, but the aesthetic choices are still keeping me away.
Also, still haven't seen any artists or sculptors credited, and am curious why.
The designs aren't that great. And after another roundtable discussion with some of my gaming buddies, we again were baffled at some of the rules design decisions. Several of us really WANT to like it, but when both the rules and sculpts are just not good...
I hate to say it, but I think you and I and Azazelx will probably be picking up models from Miniature Market's Black Friday clearance sale.
The designs aren't that great. And after another roundtable discussion with some of my gaming buddies, we again were baffled at some of the rules design decisions. Several of us really WANT to like it, but when both the rules and sculpts are just not good...
I hate to say it, but I think you and I and Azazelx will probably be picking up models from Miniature Market's Black Friday clearance sale.
I think the designs range from decent to good. I can't comment on the rules though, haven't had a chance to look at them.
In my opinion, what the Kickstarter is lacking is all that sexiness of a lot of different model options. Other Kickstarters like Robotech or Kingdom Death or WWX had a continuous opportunity for new and exciting models with each stretch goal, so once a goal was opened, another awesome model popped up and people up'd their contributions/more opted in. I of course understand the consequences of this manner of moving pledges using renders rather than actual models (seeing a lot of these games *still* trying to meet their distributions), but it makes for a lot of excitement during the campaign.
With just the terrain sprue sitting at the $45k mark, there's just not a lot of excitement, especially when the Kickstarter has so long to go. Terrain is cool, but it's so often the models that really catch people's attentions. I genuinely think things will pick up as more of the universe is revealed and we begin to see more units and the other factions. So here's to hoping that they don't hold their cards to their chest for too long.
I think they started on the wrong foot, too. Leaving exciting minis like the hunter and the shadow guy off the front page just ensured more backers would never see them. I think an awful lot of backers are like Bart's teacher, and you only get one chance with Edna Krabapple.
The rules are far from finished, so any legitimate constructive criticism about them is more than welcome. In fact, once the KS ends we will be doing a beta test period where we'll be desperately looking for such feedback.
However, the rules intro PDF naturally left a lot of fine details out of the picture in order to keep things relatively brief. So if you're finding just those core details baffling its pretty unlikely that those would be able to be changed, as they are obviously core to the overall design of the game.
I'd hope that when people see the full spectrum of the game with the faction/unit rules in place, etc, that you'd like it even more, but I know that every person has their own opinions of what they're looking for in a game and what makes a game good and/or bad, and that's just the reality of the world. If it was possible to create a 'perfect' set of rules that everyone loved, naturally someone would have done it by now! I tried to write the game that I always wanted to play (within the heavy restrictions of having to deal with the realities of model production) and hope that enough people out there have had similar desires over the years. The playtesting we've done so far has been pretty positive, so I'm hopeful, but I do know that many people will absolutely hate it, and am also ready for that.
) You may not like the critique but if you want to be professional you have to take it into consideration.
Maybe concept art? I'm not basing my buying decision on this but I want to know if I should get excited for future releases as I already am 
