Old news, and probably very much discussed by now. But I can't find anything about this online, and I'm getting back into the hobby so I really want to know. Bear in mind that I haven't been into the hobby since 3rd or 4th edition, so I haven't had any reason to understand these things until now (didn't know anyone else that was interested in playing until recently).
So why has Games Workshop become so closed off? No Games Days, no social media, downgraded White Dwarf, etc. etc. What is THEIR reason, in their eyes?
What can be gathered from their own comments is that they believe customers will retain themselves and buy whatever they feel like making, because we all just want to buy GW so desperately. So they don't need to put out effort because we're all religiously devoted.
Best guess I can make is they think they have a big enough name for themselves "they will come".
I think Kirby thinks any time spent on all those items the OP listed was lost revenue = unnecessary.
Anything that would work toward any of those items would be something he would target for better "internal efficiency".
The dividend money does not come out of thin air you know....
White Dwarf is now released weekly and is more like a catalogue with some painting ideas and article about the new models. Warhammer Vision is a monthly magasine that looks much more like the old White Dwarf. In my part of the country, GW used to have an official Facebook pages where they used to engage with the community, but the three guys who managed the thing left after receiving enough hate mail, insults and plain rude behavior for a lifetime. I met one of the guy in charge and apparently it was the worst job he ever had. Apparently, the story repeated itself in many other area up to a point they decided it wasn't worth the trouble. Games Day are apparently over due to change in strategy to favorise smaller gaming groups based around their local store. These are the reasons I managed to scrap by on that subject. I leave it to you to judge them.
Without going into huge amounts of detail, I'd honestly say it is a combination of two things.
First, there comes a time in every small business where it grows to a point where it is no longer a "small business". The difference being that while most businesses will never be titans of industry that set world wide best practices, they develop a culture and way of doing business none the less.
That culture can be customer centered, where the client is king and the company is fueled by customer goodwill, or it can be profit centered as most publicly held companies are. The former is thankfully becoming more common today, but the latter is more prevalent in my opinion.
I believe that games workshop adheres to the older method, where customers are not the number one focus of the company.
The second, is that I firmly believe that games workshop is stuck in a time warp. We live in a day and age where information sharing is so easy, if I want to read a book on advancing my career, I can have a paper copy in my hand within days or an ebook within moments. I firmly believe that their refusal to look at other ways of doing things is over of the reasons they are so out of touch.
Nearly every major business is connected to the pulse of how the world perceives them.
To give an idea of how even a smaller business can be jacked into relating to their customers let me share how the company I work for does this.
I work for a self defence and firearms training provider.
We've been in business 11 years and are on course to have our best year ever. Financially, We're about a quarter the size of GW and we have about 75 employees.
We have 2 Facebook pages, 4 twitter accounts, an instagram, a pinterest, AND we use social listening software to find out his members are feeling about us on a daily basis. Our member service team monitors all of this and helps create a good atmosphere and an open dialogue with our clients. In turn, these fantastic folks help to drive our profitability with trends
Tens of thousands of dollars in revenue each week.
Now part of that revenue is from marketing, but a part of what we believe used that our clients deserve world class service, which encourages them to do repeat business by maintaining their trust over time. ( linking back to point #1 here)
From my non expert analysis, GW does not embrace this style of service at a company wide level. The phone center may have the right of it, but the wider entity is not on board with this style of business. I can safely say that if it were to happen things would look different, but it HAS to start at the very top. Anywhere else and it does no good.
Tl;Dr version: company leadership is old fashioned and does not want to improve themselves or the company. Their way or no way.
1) Lack of understanding of how the modern world works. The internet is just a fad, social media is a waste, etc. GW's management learned how to run a business a long time ago and haven't bothered to change with society. This is probably one of the reasons why they're running such a small company instead of moving on to something bigger with a better salary.
2) Lack of confidence in their product. GW knows that they have unhappy customers with good reasons for being unhappy. So they want to close off contact and keep full control of their message. For example, those unhappy customers can't turn GW's social media posts into a discussion of GW's problems. And, as a nice side effect, if you don't hear about the new product until pre-orders go up you're less likely to think about it a little more and realize that you don't want one after all. Good companies are confident in their product and know that sales and a positive image are inevitable, GW isn't.
3) Lack of ability. It's simple: WD/games day/etc require someone who knows what they're doing to run them. If your employees working on WD aren't very good at their jobs then the quality of WD will suffer. But hey, at least they're cheaper than people with better skills. If games day is poorly managed and starts losing money you aren't going to fix the problem unless you have someone who knows how to run a more appealing event. And so you might as well stop having games day.
Netsurfer733 wrote: Old news, and probably very much discussed by now. But I can't find anything about this online, and I'm getting back into the hobby so I really want to know. Bear in mind that I haven't been into the hobby since 3rd or 4th edition, so I haven't had any reason to understand these things until now (didn't know anyone else that was interested in playing until recently).
So why has Games Workshop become so closed off? No Games Days, no social media, downgraded White Dwarf, etc. etc. What is THEIR reason, in their eyes?
Good question, and one I have wanted to ask for some time as well.
I also just reentered the hobby. I played 40K back in 2nd and 3rd edition. GW of yore seems different than GW of today. They were still arrogant pricks back then, but at least they weren't so closed about it.
GW of 2015 seems like they almost hate their customers. I remember back when their site wasn't just a store. There were forums and articles worth reading. And now WD seems like a sales pamphlet for this weeks release.
I know I shouldn't give them my money. But while I have looked at the other games out there, I have to admit that none of them reach the quality of GW. That's the sad truth.
It seems they have changed CEO recently. Perhaps that will result in a more open org?
rohdester wrote: I know I shouldn't give them my money. But while I have looked at the other games out there, I have to admit that none of them reach the quality of GW. That's the sad truth.
I think that's subjective. I personally enjoy 40k more than any other miniatures game that I've tried, but the others have much tighter design and let people "get to the good part" more quickly if that's what they're into. Plus, some of the sculpts are surprisingly creative, and some people genuinely don't see the customizability of Citadel models as a feature.
(I personally enjoy it, but then I also like calculating exactly how many bits I'll have if I buy a second box and if I can make ___ special weapons in ___ squad and use ___ parts in ___ project, and a lot of stuff many people probably don't want to mess with.)
Probably the biggest feature games like Warmahordes and Malifaux have, though, is that their communities are a lot healthier. Like, by orders of magnitude. I've been on the forums for Privateer Press games and BattleTech in particular, and the "negativity" going around here has been more or less replaced with genuine excitement. Privateer even lists their releases months in advance, and they're all really good about working with the community and doing open betas and things.
If 40k were my only game, I'd feel like I was missing out. Fortunately, and speaking as someone who's done both, it takes less effort to try out pretty much any game other than 40k/Fantasy than it does to build and paint a single box of Citadel infantry, and it's not much more expensive. I like assembly line painting and deployment zones full of plastic as much as the next hobbyist, but a little novelty now and then doesn't hurt.
rohdester wrote: I know I shouldn't give them my money. But while I have looked at the other games out there, I have to admit that none of them reach the quality of GW. That's the sad truth.
I think that's subjective. I personally enjoy 40k more than any other miniatures game that I've tried, but the others have much tighter design and let people "get to the good part" more quickly if that's what they're into. Plus, some of the sculpts are surprisingly creative, and some people genuinely don't see the customizability of Citadel models as a feature.
Totally agree. I only meant from my POW. And mileage may vary. But personally I have yet to find a game that gives me the same excitement as 40K - both fluff-wise and model-wise.
They signed lots of contracts with New Line to keep things under wraps. One leak spoiling stuff from the movies, and they'd be annihilated by a Hollywood giant. The company was too small to actually split game-design, miniature-manufacturing, etc. into not-LoTR and LoTR. The same people did both. Security applied to everything. Things eased a bit after the first LoTR bubble burst, but came back with a vengeance ahead of the first Hobbit movie.
After some 15 years, it's become part of the company culture. There're potentially people working at GW for 10 or 15 years now, rising up in middle management, who never knew different.
The problem with social media is that it allows the peasantry to share their discontent with their fellows.
GW tried to actively engage with the unwashed masses over the issue of changes to White Dwarf a decade or so back by asking for suggestions, they then promptly did the OPPOSITE of what the peasantry.. and wound up closing all of their official forums in the wake of the resultant ****storm.
They signed lots of contracts with New Line to keep things under wraps. One leak spoiling stuff from the movies, and they'd be annihilated by a Hollywood giant. The company was too small to actually split game-design, miniature-manufacturing, etc. into not-LoTR and LoTR. The same people did both. Security applied to everything. Things eased a bit after the first LoTR bubble burst, but came back with a vengeance ahead of the first Hobbit movie.
After some 15 years, it's become part of the company culture. There're potentially people working at GW for 10 or 15 years now, rising up in middle management, who never knew different.
The secrecy back when LotR was a thing only ever applied to LotR,though. Back then, they were still quite open about what they were working on otherwise.
The bigger issue at the moment seems to be this fear they have (amplified by the Chapterhouse case) that the rest of the world is just waiting to rip off all of their ideas , so everything has to be kept hidden until the last minute now that they know they can't rely on just sending legal threats to people they see as doing so .
They signed lots of contracts with New Line to keep things under wraps. One leak spoiling stuff from the movies, and they'd be annihilated by a Hollywood giant. The company was too small to actually split game-design, miniature-manufacturing, etc. into not-LoTR and LoTR. The same people did both. Security applied to everything. Things eased a bit after the first LoTR bubble burst, but came back with a vengeance ahead of the first Hobbit movie.
After some 15 years, it's become part of the company culture. There're potentially people working at GW for 10 or 15 years now, rising up in middle management, who never knew different.
The secrecy back when LotR was a thing only ever applied to LotR,though. Back then, they were still quite open about what they were working on otherwise.
The bigger issue at the moment seems to be this far they have (amplified by the Chapterhouse case) that the rest of the world is just waiting to rip off all of their ideas , so everything has to be kept hidden until the last minute now that they know they can't rely on just sending legal threats to people they see as doing so .
Sure things. Lots of factors played into it, and increasingly the whole secrecy-obsession has become its own thing, away from LoTR. But to answer the OP's question, in my theory, I think this is where the seed was first planted.
Most of the stuff that GW has out right gotten rid of is based around customer interaction. They view customer interaction as unnecessary and respond poorly to negative feedback. Instead of putting on their big boy pants or actually making changes, they chose to withdraw and dismiss the customer base. These items were also not deemed directly profitable, meaning they were down graded or out right killed.
I last played around 3rd edition too and have considered rejoining for a number of years. To answer your question, OP, it's mostly due to arrogance. They feel they are still king of the hill and that their fans/customers are so devoted to GW that they'll simply buy anything that GW sells, just because it's a GW product and "the best miniatures in the world". Things like having a good game, good support, social media etc. are secondary concerns, if concerns at all.
When they release something now, it's all secretive. Nobody knows anything until the week or so before the pre-order. Warhammer Fantasy's new edition/new game is supposed to be coming out July 4th I think and there's been basically no news at all about it from GW. I guess everyone is expected to just rush out and buy it immediately because GW makes it. That seems to be their motive now. Treat customers as braindead rubes and marks who are so insanely devoted that they'll buy anything with your logo on it, without wanting to know what it is.
Gashrog wrote: The problem with social media is that it allows the peasantry to share their discontent with their fellows.
GW tried to actively engage with the unwashed masses over the issue of changes to White Dwarf a decade or so back by asking for suggestions, they then promptly did the OPPOSITE of what the peasantry.. and wound up closing all of their official forums in the wake of the resultant ****storm.
Kirby: I love my peasants!
Pull!
The Auld Grump - there are certain scenes in History of the World Part 1 that do come to mind...
Honestly i can't help but feel that being so immersed into the background and development of their universes that they're mirroring more or less the imperium of man
A large lumbering beast that due to it's own arrogance and recklessness is dying a slow and painful death.
Gashrog wrote: The problem with social media is that it allows the peasantry to share their discontent with their fellows.
GW tried to actively engage with the unwashed masses over the issue of changes to White Dwarf a decade or so back by asking for suggestions, they then promptly did the OPPOSITE of what the peasantry.. and wound up closing all of their official forums in the wake of the resultant ****storm.
This issue was a little before my time, and I don't think I've ever actually held a White Dwarf. Just to sate my morbid curiosity, what specifically was the problem?
Gashrog wrote: The problem with social media is that it allows the peasantry to share their discontent with their fellows.
GW tried to actively engage with the unwashed masses over the issue of changes to White Dwarf a decade or so back by asking for suggestions, they then promptly did the OPPOSITE of what the peasantry.. and wound up closing all of their official forums in the wake of the resultant ****storm.
This issue was a little before my time, and I don't think I've ever actually held a White Dwarf. Just to sate my morbid curiosity, what specifically was the problem?
Customers demanded content rather than just filler pictures of stuff they could already see on the web.
Some years ago they referred to their customers as 'followers' which says a lot. They really think interacting with customers doesn't seem to matter. They also seem very paranoid and arrogant, which is why they refuse to apologise for anything (like Finecast, attacking fan sites and trying to shut down that woman writing the unrelated book 'Spots the Space Marine') or even communicate with the press, and think everyone is out to steal their IP which is why they cannot preview anything or let retailers know what the hell is going on.
Bigging up the perceived value of their IP and bullying everyone they can has become a preoccupation of theirs, and paranoia seems to stem from the fact that it's all got a rather weak basis which they don't want challenged so try to frighten people off.
Just to throw my 2 pence into the fray, maybe part of the problem is that (IMHO) more and more of the staff at GW are more "corporate" and not "hobbyists"?
During my earlier time at GW I saw a lot of the hobbyists leave the company (willingly or not) and be replaced by non-hobbyists, people that were there to climb a corporate ladder so the had something to add to their resume.
Maybe they really don't understand the hobby because some of the people making and carrying out the day to day decisions aren't part of the hobby.
I don't think it's anything nefarious like Mr. Burns sitting at his desk wringing his hands going "Excellent" let's charge them for the paint and bottle separately, it will double our profits!
mitch_rifle wrote: Honestly i can't help but feel that being so immersed into the background and development of their universes that they're mirroring more or less the imperium of man
A large lumbering beast that due to it's own arrogance and recklessness is dying a slow and painful death.
I think a lot of people want them to operate like the small company they once were, but they just aren't anymore. Perhaps some people philosophically are opposed to large corporate entities, and consider them "soulless" or whatever.
Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. I buy gas from Chevron, crops that have been modified by Monsanto, phones by Nokia, consoles by Sony, tablets by Microsoft, books by George Martin, Blu-Ray discs from HBO, and video games from Blizzard. None of those entities give a damn about what I think. They just make something, if I like it I buy it, if I don't, I don't. They might pretend to be customer-friendly, and all that, but at the end of the day, they just want my money, same as anyone else. If they make a good product, I'll be happy to give them my money.
Frankly, my expectation is that management at any company with more than 100 employees won't care about me personally, and will pretty much just do its own thing. Whether it performs market research or not -- that's for their benefit, not mine. Whether they flounder or flourish isn't really my problem; just whether I like their products or not.
Talys wrote: I think a lot of people want them to operate like the small company they once were, but they just aren't anymore. Perhaps some people philosophically are opposed to large corporate entities, and consider them "soulless" or whatever.
Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. I buy gas from Chevron, crops that have been modified by Monsanto, phones by Nokia, consoles by Sony, tablets by Microsoft, books by George Martin, Blu-Ray discs from HBO, and video games from Blizzard. None of those entities give a damn about what I think. They just make something, if I like it I buy it, if I don't, I don't. They might pretend to be customer-friendly, and all that, but at the end of the day, they just want my money, same as anyone else. If they make a good product, I'll be happy to give them my money.
Frankly, my expectation is that management at any company with more than 100 employees won't care about me personally, and will pretty much just do its own thing. Whether it performs market research or not -- that's for their benefit, not mine. Whether they flounder or flourish isn't really my problem; just whether I like their products or not.
I'm a true blue capitalist, I've got no problem with large corporations. I think there's an argument for a more ethical approach in some cases, but that's not pertinent to this discussion.
My chief bone of contention with GW is that producing a product that people are dissatisfied with and having no mechanism in place to detect and fix it, under exploiting your resources, taking activities (eg advertising) that are well established as positive impacted on a business and then doing the opposite, spending millions on pointless litigation when there are multiple ways to resolve the situation that cost less or even make money and rather than diversifying, actively closing down alternate product lines, while your competition are making money in the void you've left is just a really fething stupid way of running a business.
@Az - I totally agree with you that Games Workshop doesn't take the route of maximizing profits.
However, I go to the same thing that I've said many times -- I think that GW wants to do the "Warhammer World" thing, and cater to a group of people who are into that, to the exclusion of others. "Extreme hobbyists" if you want to call it that, or at least, gamers that are way past the point of "casual", and certainly not the gamers who only want to game at the exclusion of modelling miniatures.
It's kind of like the sports gear company that only wants to market to the higher end crowd, and while they're happy if they scoop up some of the other people, they don't really care if they leave or not.
I think their pulse on the group of "extreme 40k'ers" is actually probably pretty good. I think it actually represents a high percentage of their revenue and profits, but a low percentage of actual gamers (and a higher percentage of modelling hobbyists who may or may not game). I mean, this is a group (like ours) who would probably happily scoop up a new rule book for their faction every year if there were some perceptible improvement, and who don't mind (who LIKE) rejiggering their armies quite often, and mostly own multiple armies with so many models that they can't get screwed by nerfs/buffs, because it all comes around in a circle in the end.
That's probably not most gamers, which pisses a lot of people off, or at least puts them off.
To which I would say, there is probably a different game/hobby that is better for them.
By the way, I'm one of the people who, on a scale of 1-10 on the satisfaction level of the game, would rate 40k at about 8.5. I have tons of fun with it, but it could be better. I fully realize this may be a minority opinion on this forum, but I'd also point out that the people who would rank 40k at a 4.5 or lower are much more vocal than the people who play it and are happy with it.
If I had to express my largest dissatisfaction, it's that whatever faction I'm working on, the number of new releases for that faction are actually pretty slim. You gotta wait about 2-3 years for your turn, and most often, you get a lousy 1-3 of new kits. If there were half as many factions, I could get 1-3 new kits every year, and that would be better But what can I say, I'm a model piggy when it comes to whatever faction I happen to like at the moment.
This is actually probably the single biggest reason I have so many freakin' 40k armies -- I run out of new stuff to add onto whatever faction I really like. Last year, after I finished off my Menoth for WMH, I actually decided to do a complete reboot of my Blood Angels; something like 250+ models, but the painting quality and even the way they're done up is pretty inconsistent, because I built and painted them over so many years a little bit at a time.
Gw just doesn't care about their customers s d they're losing money and community because of it. Talys claims that this is some design of theirs. How would the shareholders like hearing that the new direction is to minamize profits? Either its extreme arrogance or incompetence. Probably both.
Like I said, a fething stupid way to run a business.
Especially when there is nothing inherent to your product that justifies your attempts to aim at the sector you're shooting for, and your production method is counter productive to this aim.
But the proof of the pudding is in the FYE statement. While they remain closed off and labour under the misapprehension of where their money comes from, the decline will likely continue, unless they get another LotR get out of jail card by random chance.
By the way, I'm one of the people who, on a scale of 1-10 on the satisfaction level of the game, would rate 40k at about 8.5. I have tons of fun with it, but it could be better. I fully realize this may be a minority opinion on this forum, but I'd also point out that the people who would rank 40k at a 4.5 or lower are much more vocal than the people who play it and are happy with it.
They have a pulse on an incredibly limited amount of people. basically them selves and anyone that goes to the dubs.
I think im siting at about 5 to 6 on the meh o meter since they closed my only store in my area but injection of new things that didnt require me to buy 20 new boxes for SM pleases me.
MWHistorian wrote: Gw just doesn't care about their customers s d they're losing money and community because of it. Talys claims that this is some design of theirs. How would the shareholders like hearing that the new direction is to minamize profits? Either its extreme arrogance or incompetence. Probably both.
As I've said before, what shareholders want don't matter unless they can muster 51% of the votes and kick out the board.
I don't claim that this is so, by the way. It's my unproven hypothesis that GW is catering to the customers that are like-minded to them (and probably their most profitable customers), to the exclusion of customers who aren't like-minded.
It's not arrogance or incompetence, if they make money; it's just doing what you want to do. In my line of work, I could make 3 times as much money if I chose to engage with customers I don't like, but I walk away from a lot of business because I choose to, and I don't need their business, and I don't want bad customers. It doesn't make me arrogant or incompetent -- it just makes me a guy who doesn't do stuff that doesn't make him happy.
I mean, for all the pouring over of financial statements, all these supposed internet experts never look at GW's statement of cashflows, which is actually really healthy. They can *afford* to do what they want to, and so long as they can, I think they should. If that doesn't intersect with what I want? I'll just find something else to do. If it doesn't intersect with a large enough population of their customer base, then they need to re-evaluate, and perhaps, like many people must, suck it up and do stuff that they don't like.
They have a pulse on an incredibly limited amount of people. basically them selves and anyone that goes to the dubs.
And on top of that, probably only the people at their very largest stores, like in the UK, too. I mean, we have a nice enough store here, but I think the input of the operator here counts for not much of anything at all, frankly
I'm sure they read forums and all that, too. JamesY mentioned that people at GW do so actively Also, remember, they have dedicated sales reps that talk to FLGS every week (the orders are still taken by telephone, in person).
By the way, if it were me, and I rated a game 6 / 10, it wouldn't even get 30 minutes of my time a week There are so many things that I do enjoy in life that are 8+ that there just aren't enough hours in the day to do stuff that I barely enjoy. My favorite pastime at the moment is sitting on the patio, scraping off mold lines from bits and models while I watch raccoons play in the back yard, and hummingbirds zip in and out of flowers On the satisfaction scale, that hits the high 9's for me.
Talys wrote: I think their pulse on the group of "extreme 40k'ers" is actually probably pretty good. I think it actually represents a high percentage of their revenue and profits, but a low percentage of actual gamers (and a higher percentage of modelling hobbyists who may or may not game). I mean, this is a group (like ours) who would probably happily scoop up a new rule book for their faction every year if there were some perceptible improvement, and who don't mind (who LIKE) rejiggering their armies quite often, and mostly own multiple armies with so many models that they can't get screwed by nerfs/buffs, because it all comes around in a circle in the end.
Do you really not see the contradiction here? The "extreme 40k'ers" are a low percentage of gamers and may or may not play at all, but they'll happily buy the same old recycled fluff (in ever-decreasing amounts) just because it contains new rules to play the game?
Also, you seem to be confusing "GW's stupid actions don't hurt this group quite as much" with "GW is doing the right thing for this group". GW isn't supporting this group at all, they're just stubborn enough to keep playing despite that lack of support. At best GW has realized that rabid fanboys who will keep buying no matter what are an easy cash cow to milk, so it's not worth investing time and money into developing a superior product if the cash cow can keep GW profitable for a few more years and let the CEO cash his retirement check.
By the way, if it were me, and I rated a game 6 / 10, it wouldn't even get 30 minutes of my time a week There are so many things that I do enjoy in life that are 8+ that there just aren't enough hours in the day to do stuff that I barely enjoy. My favorite pastime at the moment is sitting on the patio, scraping off mold lines from bits and models while I watch raccoons play in the back yard, and hummingbirds zip in and out of flowers On the satisfaction scale, that hits the high 9's for me.
Like i said. it dropped heavily since the stores closed.
New one is popping up soon and all the spartan stuff seems to be the rage now.
Talys wrote: Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing. I buy gas from Chevron, crops that have been modified by Monsanto, phones by Nokia, consoles by Sony, tablets by Microsoft, books by George Martin, Blu-Ray discs from HBO, and video games from Blizzard. None of those entities give a damn about what I think. They just make something, if I like it I buy it, if I don't, I don't. They might pretend to be customer-friendly, and all that, but at the end of the day, they just want my money, same as anyone else. If they make a good product, I'll be happy to give them my money..
The difference between most of those things and gaming is that gaming is an ongoing purchase experience, that is constantly changing. It's also a substantial investment by the customer. Buying into 40K isn't just a one-off purchase, and then you play until you get bored and move on to something else. You buy models and rules, they change the rules or models so you buy more models and rules, and it becomes a never-ending cycle. So customers very quickly become invested in the progress of that investment. Once you've put a few thousand dollars and however many countless hours into the game, you don't want to just dump it and move to a different game when 40K starts to become something you don't like as much as you liked the original product you bought... you want the company to continue to evolve the product in a way that suits you, so that you can continue to enjoy your investment.
I fully accept that may not be the case for everyone, and you personally may find it easier to just chuck it all in a box and walk away. For me, 40K is something that I have been pouring money, time, and creativity into for over half of my life. So yes, what GW does with it matters to me.
DalinCriid wrote: They are preparing for an offer from Hasbro Then you will have an official FB page, the production will move to China and the prices will drop.
(I', just joking thou)
I have a horrible, internal, cynic that believes that they were preparing for a Hasbro takeover...
But were unprepared when Hasbro decided 'no'.
The Auld Grump - does anyone think that Kirby would not be happy to trade GW stock for Hasbro stock?
I think Hasbro are handling D&D and Transformers quite well. While Transformers are really kids oriented but If they did well with Dungeons and Dragons I think they can do well with 40K as well.
OP, Netsurfer, you truly did open a can of worms on a contentiousness that is frankly one of the things that slowly drove me away from forums such as these. But I wanted to comment because while my thoughts may echo what many others have already said, I think I can offer my opinion from a uniquely objective standpoint. Relatively, anyway.
I will place a TL;DR marker at the section where I get to my point for those uninterested in the preamble.
As you've already seen, there is a lot of emotion over this issue and people have already picked sides and established entrenched positions that they feel the need to defend. I have no dog in this fight. While I like GW's IP and models, I only play Epic these days. I haven't played 40k or Fantasy in years. I'm not resentful or mad in any way and have no emotional investment in my opinion. No axe to grind. I didn't make a conscious "screw GW!" decision to quit 40k or Fantasy. Simply lost interest and faded away over time.
What I think it boils down to is mismanagement by Tom Kirby. Or, it may be more accurate to say that Kirby misjudged Games Workshop's value proposition, its role in the market, and its core customer base. Saying this with no rancor at all, I do think Kirby was grossly out of touch with his customers due to this misjudgment and what I perceived to be a strange kind of personal disdain for GW's customers.
The philosophy that he expressed repeatedly and explicitly was that GW was in the collectibles business. He believed that most GW customers purchased GW models primarily as collectors and not as gamers. He believed because of this status as "collectibles", the quality of GW products, and its standing in the marketplace, that GW products were essentially borderline Veblen goods with very little price elasticity. He further operated under the assumption that the games did very little in the way of driving sales.
I more-or-less agree with his assessment of GW's products being pseudo-Veblen goods for which people are willing to pay a sort of "status" premium. However, declining sales numbers demonstrated time and time again that either the product wasn't nearly as price inelastic as he thought or that he was wrong in his assumptions regarding GW's value proposition and core customer. Consistently declining sales figures should have been quantifiable clues that his philosophy was flawed. Why he was never brought to task on this by shareholders or the board of directors, I am not sure.
TL;DR Where I believe Kirby completely missed the mark and where the answer to your question lies was his belief that there was very little connection between the models and the games as sales drivers. Not in the sense that people will buy more of a model perceived to be "powerful" in the game. I believe that influences sales a lot less than people here think. I mean more in the sense that the gaming experience and the social aspects surrounding it are hugely powerful and inexpensive marketing tools for the product that he entirely failed to leverage. People continue to play with physical toy soldiers in spite of having millions of virtual options that they can pursue at home because, in general, people like being around other people, especially people who have a shared interest. The big GW stores with lots of cool tables brought people together. The Games Days and the Golden Demons and all that brought people together. What happens when people with a shared interest get together? They talk about the interest. They reinforce each others' commitment to that interest. They organically buy more product having to do with that interest. They bring their friends along who then feel the urge to become involved with the community and buy product.
That is the reason GW has become so closed off. Because Tom Kirby (incorrectly, IMO) believed that social events and company interaction with its customer were a waste of money that didn't lead to increased sales. He believed this due to his misjudgment of GW products as collectibles.
The good news? Tom Kirby is no longer CEO and the new CEO seems to be quietly correcting a lot of Kirby's stupid mistakes. I like the general direction and hope that he is able to turn things around.
Azreal13 wrote: You get that the new CEO is one of Kirby's longest standing colleagues, and that Kirby is still chairman?
I'm sorry I'm seeing no real change nor any real cause to look for it, but if you've got any examples I'd be interested to hear.
Sure. I get that they have a long-time association with each other and that Kirby is still on the board. That doesn't mean he can't disagree with Kirby. It also doesn't mean that he isn't vulnerable to being fired for poor performance. I could be wrong, but because he is new, I am assuming that he has every incentive to perform well at the moment as I am sure his every move will be carefully watched by shareholders.
Where I think his relationship with Kirby could muddy things a bit is good old fashioned politicking. He may be reluctant to reverse too many of Kirby's stupid policies too quickly for fear of offending him and / or jeopardizing his standing with him. Remember, it took decades after his death for the Communist Party to finally admit that Mao may have only been 70% correct
I can't cite any concrete examples for you right now. I'm sure if I thought about it I could, but I'm not really so invested in this discussion. All I can say is that I know I've seen a couple of things over the past few months that made me think "oh, that's pretty cool", and seemed like reversals of Kirby's aloof policies.
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: Where I think his relationship with Kirby could muddy things a bit is good old fashioned politicking. He may be reluctant to reverse too many of Kirby's stupid policies too quickly for fear of offending him and / or jeopardizing his standing with him. Remember, it took decades after his death for the Communist Party to finally admit that Mao may have only been 70% correct
Actually, the 70/30 thing, is from a quote by Deng Xiaoping in 1978, two years after Mao died. And during the '80s many Mao statues were removed, and his importance downplayed, before finally in February '89 an op-ed by one of the top CCP officials flat out called Mao a disaster. The view of Mao by the CCP is like state-owned companies and services in the UK in the post-war era; Tories privatize; lose power, Labour nationalize, lose power; rinse, repeat. While a one-party state, the CCP functions like multiple parties (where everyone's Frank Underwood), where there's a left and a right wing. Deng was right-wing, and was replaced by leftism in the 90s, when Mao's image was restored, and then it gets a bit muddled after that with the super-Underwoods of the noughties, and Xi, who kinda just rolled with it. At least until he got rid of Bo. If the next one is like Xi, and the US pivots a bit back from Asia (nothing like a mythical helmsman to stir up support through revisionism and nationalism), there are chances of Mao getting some harsh words in the People's Daily.
TL;DR: Rountree will call Kirbz 30% incompetent in 2017.
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: Where I think his relationship with Kirby could muddy things a bit is good old fashioned politicking. He may be reluctant to reverse too many of Kirby's stupid policies too quickly for fear of offending him and / or jeopardizing his standing with him. Remember, it took decades after his death for the Communist Party to finally admit that Mao may have only been 70% correct
Actually, the 70/30 thing, is from a quote by Deng Xiaoping in 1978, two years after Mao died. And during the '80s many Mao statues were removed, and his importance downplayed, before finally in February '89 an op-ed by one of the top CCP officials flat out called Mao a disaster. The view of Mao by the CCP is like state-owned companies and services in the UK in the post-war era; Tories privatize; lose power, Labour nationalize, lose power; rinse, repeat. While a one-party state, the CCP functions like multiple parties (where everyone's Frank Underwood), where there's a left and a right wing. Deng was right-wing, and was replaced by leftism in the 90s, when Mao's image was restored, and then it gets a bit muddled after that with the super-Underwoods of the noughties, and Xi, who kinda just rolled with it. At least until he got rid of Bo. If the next one is like Xi, and the US pivots a bit back from Asia (nothing like a mythical helmsman to stir up support through revisionism and nationalism), there are chances of Mao getting some harsh words in the People's Daily.
TL;DR: Rountree will call Kirbz 30% incompetent in 2017.
I stand corrected. The exact length of time was not substantially material to the point I was trying to make about Kirby's successor so I didn't bother to "spell check" my memory of it, so to speak. I think my point about stepping on the toes of the old guard came across regardless. As it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I suspect your history lesson for us there was largely a self-satisfying demonstration of your detailed knowledge of the subject. But I thank you for the correction nevertheless. It sounds like you are pretty interested in the topic. If you have not already done so, Henry Kissinger's book On China offers interesting first-hand anecdotes about CCCP leadership spanning three or four decades. I recommend it. I, too, am watching events unfold in that part of the world with keen interest, but.... completely off topic for this thread.
Anyway, hopefully GW does turn things around a little bit. I do miss that sense of community and interaction. Even though I knew I was being sold to at them, the old Games Days were pretty fun.
insaniak wrote:The difference between most of those things and gaming is that gaming is an ongoing purchase experience, that is constantly changing. It's also a substantial investment by the customer. Buying into 40K isn't just a one-off purchase, and then you play until you get bored and move on to something else. You buy models and rules, they change the rules or models so you buy more models and rules, and it becomes a never-ending cycle. So customers very quickly become invested in the progress of that investment. Once you've put a few thousand dollars and however many countless hours into the game, you don't want to just dump it and move to a different game when 40K starts to become something you don't like as much as you liked the original product you bought... you want the company to continue to evolve the product in a way that suits you, so that you can continue to enjoy your investment.
I fully accept that may not be the case for everyone, and you personally may find it easier to just chuck it all in a box and walk away. For me, 40K is something that I have been pouring money, time, and creativity into for over half of my life. So yes, what GW does with it matters to me.
I think you misunderstand me. I care about what GW does to the product, but I don't care about whether management seems 'closed off' or whether they are wonderful people or terrible people, because as I've said before, I don't hold other vendors of any size to this standard. I don't really get 'communication' (not in a meaningful way) out of much anything else I enjoy in life either, including things that I spend lots of money and devote lots of time on.
But of course, I my wish for 40k is hobby that is generally accessible (at least from a first-world nation perspective) and a game that makes lots of people happy and has lots of people happily playing.
Peregrine wrote:Do you really not see the contradiction here? The "extreme 40k'ers" are a low percentage of gamers and may or may not play at all, but they'll happily buy the same old recycled fluff (in ever-decreasing amounts) just because it contains new rules to play the game?
Also, you seem to be confusing "GW's stupid actions don't hurt this group quite as much" with "GW is doing the right thing for this group". GW isn't supporting this group at all, they're just stubborn enough to keep playing despite that lack of support. At best GW has realized that rabid fanboys who will keep buying no matter what are an easy cash cow to milk, so it's not worth investing time and money into developing a superior product if the cash cow can keep GW profitable for a few more years and let the CEO cash his retirement check.
Well, there are two different things to address here, Peregrine.
Your assumptions aren't necessarily correct. You assume that extreme 40k'ers are basically sheep who walk out like zombies and just buy GW stuff. On the contrary, if you check the other similarly-themed thread, there are some people who have tried many other products and come back to GW games and models out of actual, informed preference. Believe it or not, as imperfect as the 40k rules are, it's my favorite game, I have TONS of fun with it, and not for lack of trying other games. Likewise, 40k models are the ones that give me the most joy to model and paint, again not for lack of purchasing other models. I don't ask anyone else to share my viewpoint, but I know that I'm hardly unique.
Secondly, I didn't say, "GW's stupid actions don't hurt this group quite as much". I said that GW is trying to please this group to the exclusion of other groups, and I also said this may be detrimental to the hobby and ecosystem as a whole.
For example: people who are "extreme 40k'ers" don't mind a codex every two years. I'd happily buy a Sapce Marine Codex as an annual event, every June 1 on the dot. Of course, I'd want them to add new stuff in there every year. I don't feel at all that the 7e SM codex is a regurgitation of the 6e book, and I honestly don't think that anyone who's bought feels that it's just a reprint money grab. The store I picked it up had like 20+ preorders, so it's not like I'm alone here. But bring it on baby -- I don't want to wait 3 years for a refresh to may favorite faction. Core-command-auxiliary changes? AWESOME. If it means shelling out $50 for a book, take my money please. I get that for someone who doesn't play much or to whom hobby is just a passing interest may think replacing a rulebook in a year is obtuse, and having to retool their army every couple years, maybe before they even finish painting it in the first place, might seem crazy.
As another example, "extreme 40k'ers" will happily pay more money for a box set that has small, incremental improvements. I see posable legs on ASM or an eviscerator or scenic bases, and I go, "HOLY CRAP, MUST HAVE!". A casual player might just want a game piece and not care. Obviously, they don't hold the same value for all people. For example, I traded 20 old ASM pieces for bits for 10 new ones because I wanted more posable legs and both me and the other fella were very happy.
GW seems hell bent on putting out stuff that makes the former group happy, even if it angers the latter, who feel that game pieces are just game pieces, and the 2005 Devastator legs aren't all that different from the 2015 Devastator legs -- and more importantly, aren't willing to pay for the newer, "better" piece. I put better in quotes, because it's way better to some people, and others are totally indifferent.
In the end, I'm not sure you can please both, and GW seems to care a lot about the first, and not much about the second. Perhaps at their own peril.
You also make the assumption that folks like me would just buy the next box of stuff whether or not it was better. That's just not true. However, I genuinely think the new Devastator box is way, way, way better than the last box, and I was happy to buy 2 right away. When I get through painting some of them in the next week or two, I'll buy at least 2 more boxes. What can I say, I like space marines, I think the legs are cool, I love the weapon sculpts, I love the new weapons, new sergeant torso, and so forth.
Plus, as JamesY pointed out, since 2009, they've invested in a better way of tooling the molds, and the plastic is just better. It's smoother, crisper, cleaner, and more detailed. I don't think appreciating that makes me a rabid fanboy.
I buy quite a lot of non-GW stuff, and I appreciate it too. I'm a big fan of Infinity models, for example, but there aren't many to be had. A couple of times a year, I spend a couple of weeks painting them, and then they go in a display case, and maybe I pull them out to play a game with once a year. A few times a year a PP model will demand that I drop everything and paint it. Through the rest of the year, I buy a lot of their models, but none of them really drive me to paint them with any urgency, so they go into a pile until I get in the mood to do add to my Cyngar, Menoth, or Retribution. The last model that I "HAD" to paint was Bradigus, and before that it was one of the Haley models.
On the other hand, there's so much GW stuff that comes out that I'm dying to paint, that I just spend time imagining posing, assembling, and modelling, that it's just nuts. I can't wait to get to AdMech. I can't wait til I have time to put together my Eldar Farseer on a jetbike. I can't wait until I can put together the windriders I bought, or the Knight Warden, or even Druthu from last year, or the Bloodletter from this. Or Nagash. It's like an endless stream of modelling hotness for me.
Talys wrote: I think you misunderstand me. I care about what GW does to the product, but I don't care about whether management seems 'closed off' or whether they are wonderful people or terrible people, because as I've said before, I don't hold other vendors of any size to this standard. I don't really get 'communication' (not in a meaningful way) out of much anything else I enjoy in life either, including things that I spend lots of money and devote lots of time on.
The two go hand in hand, though.
A lot of the current discontent with the way GW management are doing things comes from people being unhappy with the direction of the game, but being unable to make that disatisfaction heard.
Talizvar wrote: The doom of GW had been foretold often.
For many of us when it happens we would have already moved on.
1. Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.[39] (Not to be confused with presentism, which is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas, such as moral standards, are projected into the past.)
2. Appeal to tradition (argumentum ad antiquitatem) – a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true.[80]
3. Chronological snobbery – where a thesis is deemed incorrect because it was commonly held when something else, clearly false, was also commonly held.[85][86]
I could go on, such as the fallacy of assuming that something wasn't true in the past, it must not be true now, but why bother?
Talys wrote: I think you misunderstand me. I care about what GW does to the product, but I don't care about whether management seems 'closed off' or whether they are wonderful people or terrible people, because as I've said before, I don't hold other vendors of any size to this standard. I don't really get 'communication' (not in a meaningful way) out of much anything else I enjoy in life either, including things that I spend lots of money and devote lots of time on.
The two go hand in hand, though.
A lot of the current discontent with the way GW management are doing things comes from people being unhappy with the direction of the game, but being unable to make that disatisfaction heard.
This.
GW's silence is not helping them and only fans frustration from the community.
Talys wrote: I think you misunderstand me. I care about what GW does to the product, but I don't care about whether management seems 'closed off' or whether they are wonderful people or terrible people, because as I've said before, I don't hold other vendors of any size to this standard. I don't really get 'communication' (not in a meaningful way) out of much anything else I enjoy in life either, including things that I spend lots of money and devote lots of time on.
The two go hand in hand, though.
A lot of the current discontent with the way GW management are doing things comes from people being unhappy with the direction of the game, but being unable to make that disatisfaction heard.
Yes, I hear that, and I totally appreciate someone quitting 40k because they hate the rules. They absolutely should. I don't get someone quitting 40k because they think that Kirby a tool. Hate the game because you hate the game, you know what I mean?
I also get that you think that current management is the cause of "poor rules" in the game and whatnot. But I'd respond, the rules now are better than they've ever been, in my opinion. Balance? It's NEVER been perfectly balanced, current management, or previous. It's ALWAYS had quirky "LOL, that game was a waste of time" issues. But for our guys, it's always been fun. It's still the game we have the most fun with, quirks and all.
I get the feeling you might have just barely touched on what could really be happening. I suspect it's less that they're quitting because of Kirby, but they're quitting because of the rules (or the prices, or whatever else that directly impacts them) .... which is itself because of Kirby being a flaming hosebeast or whatever ... (edit)Of course, it's probably easier to say/type "It's Kirby's fault" than enumerate all of your issues ... (/edit)
I would be interested to see a really good, pleasantly done debate on the rules thing though. I've seen people say it both ways, but haven't really seen a good explanation of why it sucks, and why it rocks. Which of course is likely to have a different explanation for everyone, but maybe there are commonalities that could stand to be codified in one place. Normally I'd think that'd dissolve into bile, but this thread so far has been pretty pleasant over all despite the fairly wide gulf of opinions ...
Balance has never been a huge factor for me. I'd certainly not complain if everything was better balanced, but I'm not a competitive enough player (and fairly used to being stomped even by less problematic armies) to care that much about it.
The bigger issues for me are things like the current wound allocation (which I dislike as intensely as a big intense dislikey thing), and the excessive random... but even moreso the complete lack of care in actually writing the rules.
The 'psyker unit' rules should never have made it anywhere near a final publication in their current state, just to mention the most obvious example. Couple that with their current disdain for publishing errata, and you're left with a flawed product, and a company that apparently doesn't care that the product is flawed so long as people buy it.
Beltendu wrote: I get the feeling you might have just barely touched on what could really be happening. I suspect it's less that they're quitting because of Kirby, but they're quitting because of the rules (or the prices, or whatever else that directly impacts them) .... which is itself because of Kirby being a flaming hosebeast or whatever ... (edit)Of course, it's probably easier to say/type "It's Kirby's fault" than enumerate all of your issues ... (/edit)
I would be interested to see a really good, pleasantly done debate on the rules thing though. I've seen people say it both ways, but haven't really seen a good explanation of why it sucks, and why it rocks. Which of course is likely to have a different explanation for everyone, but maybe there are commonalities that could stand to be codified in one place. Normally I'd think that'd dissolve into bile, but this thread so far has been pretty pleasant over all despite the fairly wide gulf of opinions ...
I know its a bit off topic but I feel it is massively bloated and needs streamlining across the board. Rolling to hit, to wound, to save and potentially to save again is not good game design especially in a mass battle game. It is 3 or 4 rolls to determine the outcome of a model killing a model. Warmachine manages that with a simple to hit then damage vs armour as a single roll, with the rare roll to save (unless you're a troll). Infinity manages it in 2 rolls again with hitting and damage vs armour. Both of those games are much smaller than 40k and yet they understand it is important to speed up gameplay by spending less time rolling pointless dice. Dystopian wars, a real mass battle game, gets it in 1 roll, 2 if you're hitting something with shields. That is how a mass battle needs to play, fast and spending more time directing the battle rather than each tactical marine individually.
Yeah, my bad for teeing up an obvious off-topic. I was just inspired by the civil discussion around GW's behavior and differences of opinion on the state of the game ...
I've been enjoying this thread and the other about the financials though. It's neat to see, if third-hand, some of the maneuverings that I haven't paid as close attention to lately.
The closed-off thing is an interesting topic particularly, since about the only time I get any news is when I come here (or ATT for Tau specific stuff). Which is admittedly kinda feast or famine for me. I hadn't really put it together as a nearly complete cloak of secrecy on GWs part though.
GW doesn't make market research and they said this in their business report last time.
If you look at the homepage, there is a button ''Painting and Modeling''.
This button has replaced the button ''Gaming''.
Its easier to ''forge the narrative'' than producing a consistent rule set
Other companies do it better, like PP. They always have an eye on the customer by their press gangers
What I like about 40k as a game goes back to why I enjoy miniature wargames in the first place.
I am a highly competitive computer RTS, MMORPG and electronic CCG player. Have been since these have existed, and I'm as WAAC and TFG as they come. No trick is too dirty in a competitive online game with someone across the globe that I don't know, and if there's something in it for me by PK'ing your ass, watch out!! If there's a ladder, I'll play til I'm on it, and then play til I'm at the top. But when it comes to miniature wargames, my personally is TOTALLY different.
First of all, I really love miniatures. I have a passion for collecting them, ever since I used Ral Partha miniatures to represent my characters in D&D for marching order. When I'm playing a miniature wargame, it's at least as much about the miniatures as it is about the wargame. I lovingly craft my game tables, which represent hundreds (thousands, sometimes) of hours of work on terrain. I put a lot of effort into each of my models, because they mean something other than a game marker. The friends that I game with are all the same way.
So when we get together, it's FAR more social than a computer game, so although we're competitive in the sense that we're trying to win, showing off our armies and doing battle with them is very rewarding in and of itself. Choosing my 100+ models and deploying them, and pushing them to the other side, or defending a fortress, or whatever, is just really cool for me. We play a lot of self-made scenarios, where the starting point is highly scripted, such as a strong fortification in the center of the table, with two other players attacking from either side (must protect flag for 6 turns, for example).
Now, the actual game system. Yes, it's not the fastest, slickest system out there. For sure!
I love list building, and 40k is the KING of listbuilding games. I have like... thousands in Excel spreadsheets. I love, turn-based, IGYG games (I love PCTBS games too, but only against AI, too annoying with 2 people), I like to move massive armies and the types of strategy that 40k promotes. Where deployment is critical, where an unexpected move can win a game, where objectives matter. I like the way games are won and lost, although of course, everyone who has played 40k have run into games where you know you've lost pretty early, and that can be a downer. But you can always concede, reset, and play again.
I also like the game length. To me, 3-4 hours a game is great; in one night, we can play 2 games + pizza, and that's just right (thrown in a KT game if we have time left over).
I also really like rolling dice I think that I own about 2,000 dice (though many are not D6 and not usable for 40k). Pick a color, pick a die, pick whether it's crystal or opaque, and I can probably give you a fifty or more. You can probably even pick what color you want the numbers colored in with on the crystal dice and I could pull it for you I don't mind rolling dice at all (I like it), and rolling for scatter lasers, or rolling to save against them is fun, for me. Dice trays all the way, baby.
What 40k doesn't do as well as some other systems is that once your units are deployed, you have less choices as to what you may do, and for experienced players, there are fewer nasty surprises. The warlord, for instance, is just any unit, and might be tough, and might have some psychic abilities, but you pretty much know what they can do.
On the other hand, this is much like modern warfare, which 40k sort of tries to emulate. Once two opposing forces pick their strategies and clash, the commanders can't magically turn the tide of battle. It's a footslogging melee at some point (in a metaphorical sense), whch I like.
Are there a lot of things that don't make sense? For sure! But by and large, they don't affect the funness of the game. Also, because I play with regular friends, if something REALLY doesn't make sense, we can just change it. We're a pretty easy going bunch.
To close, I like 40k mostly because I like epic scifi battles, I love miniatures, and I enjoy socializing and gaming with friends and to shoot the breeze. 40k combines them all!
Please, give me something of whatever you are having Talys
I don't think anyone is arguing about any of the above though. But, just that it's not a good thing that GW as a company doesn't seem to listen (or care) about customer feedback, and that perhaps the game that you love so much might be even better if they did?
In all seriousness, you mention being highly competitive. Have you tried Infinity? There is a worldwide tournament system for Infinity, nothing on the scale of MTG, but it's growing. After playing in tournaments for all kinds of games over the years I would say that they are the toughest, absolute razor-edge stuff. Yes it is balanced (you won't once look over the tabletop and say "I've lost") and the game is tactical to the extreme also. You play three games in a day and you will sleep well that night!
I'm agreeing with a fair few comments in here regarding the fact they seem to be not doing the basics regarding communication that everyone pretty much expects from a modern company.
Take Age of Sigmar as a prime example, its a brand new direction for a thirty year old game.. that apparently is supposed to be drawing in new players, but I have to ask, what new players? The aren't advertising, they aren't building hype anywhere, do they seriously expect a couple of vague online vids, some posters in their store windows and some info when the preorder goes up is going to drag new folks in? Just look at FFG for how to do build up to a new release, and then look at how well the release does it, hell next door at Forgeworld do things a hell of a lot better, and even a game like Heroclix that some see as a bit childish with the prepaints, has a much better hype building machine.
I sadly think the echo chamber suggestions are all too accurate, I mean come on, can anyone else believe any 'gaming' company (Miniatues, CCGs, Boardgames or console gaming) would proudly state they don't do market research in a preamble for the shares statement, and I already thought Kirby was a joke, but his Pokemon statement last year confirmed it.. the I don't want GW to be a fad company, Pokemon, remeber them? Yeah Tom, I mean, they've only been going for twenty odd years and had a turnover of 1.5billion relating to Pokemon products in same year you made that comment.. I'd totally forgotten about them.
Pacific wrote: Please, give me something of whatever you are having Talys
I don't think anyone is arguing about any of the above though. But, just that it's not a good thing that GW as a company doesn't seem to listen (or care) about customer feedback, and that perhaps the game that you love so much might be even better if they did?
In all seriousness, you mention being highly competitive. Have you tried Infinity? There is a worldwide tournament system for Infinity, nothing on the scale of MTG, but it's growing. After playing in tournaments for all kinds of games over the years I would say that they are the toughest, absolute razor-edge stuff. Yes it is balanced (you won't once look over the tabletop and say "I've lost") and the game is tactical to the extreme also. You play three games in a day and you will sleep well that night!
I'm actually very competitive on PC games, but on the tabletop, whether I win, lose, or draw, I don't much care (any more, anyhow -- when I was much younger, it mattered a lot more). It's a treat just to be able to play with friends, and I probably win between 40%-60% of my games depending on what I play and how I play, which is just fine with me. Part of it is, you get to know someone for 10+ years, and you form pretty close friendships; the last thing I want to do is ruin that by playing something they can't handle and land them with a 5 game lose streak. I'd rather tone it down and have a closer fight, and my buddies are of like mind with this. Scatter bikes weren't really the end-all, but had they been, I'm sure my good Eldar friend wouldn't field 30 of them every game.
I have tried Infinity! I don't really have the right terrain to make it work well (we use some dropzone stuff, some cardboard things, etc.). I would probably play it a little more, but my friends prefer 40k. The scale of it is not really what we are into, as we all are into large size battles. There's just something magical to a lot of nice models on a table.
I agree that looking at a board and going, CRAP, in 40k, sucks. This does not often happen to us for two reasons -- first, we all know each other pretty well, and we just don't play the worst lopsided matchups (because it's dumb, not not fun), and secondly, we usually prefer a board where meaningful terrain has been arranged and some kind of scenario has been preplanned that gives both sides some chance to win. It's also in my home, rather than a hobby store, so we have the luxury of being able to keep setups that we like for our next game (usually not for another 2 weeks), and we aren't spending a zillion hours transporting terrain and battle boards.
When you play with friends, you also have the luxury of easily modifying rules you don't like, and even changing it again the very next game to try out an alternative.
I know this isn't really something that everyone can do, and I appreciate that if I were packing stuff to play at a FLGS, I wouldn't want to take a trunk full of stuff. And even for gaming models, things like Wraithknights and Raiders are just not fun to transport.
With regards to communication, there is certainly a perception that Games Workshop doesn't connect with its customers. This is not a good thing. On the other hand, one of my favorite video game manufacturers is Blizzard Entertainment -- they also make many flawed games, are constantly complained about as being tone-deaf to customers, balance is horrible, and yet I find their games really fun. So I guess, to me, I see 40k as "their game", and they can write it however way they like. When it lands in my lap, it becomes "my game", and I can change it (with my friends) to whatever works for us. Now, I get that this is not viable for competitive play, nor for pickup games where you don't know your opponent and don't want to negotiate rule changes in advance. But the former I don't ever participate in except as a spectator, and the latter, is pretty rare for me, because I am pretty lazy at packing and transporting models (now, anyways -- I used to for years).
Would 40k be a better game if they had more interaction with customers, beyond what they see in their key locations, probably mostly in the UK? I think so. I think it would be a better game, have happier fans, and be a stronger ecosystem for it. I still don't think 40k is a game that can be balanced, though. Better balanced, yes, and internally, less useful units can be made more useful. But to GW's credit, the Eldar and Space Marine codex did a pretty good job of this.
But hey, GW has kinda done whatever they wanted in the last 30 years, so I won't hold my breath. I will have fun with it in the meantime, though
Blizzard is not even close to fair comparison, they may not always listen, but their communication with their fans is up there with some of the best.. Dev's themselves are on social media and will react to comments, they hold Blizzcon perhaps the most dedicated fan service event out there, they preview new content all the time, public test realm servers.. I mean I can really go on.
GW isn't even on the same planet as Blizzard when it comes to how they communicate with their customers.
Been following Blizz since the early nineties, really GW could learn a hell of a lot from them.
GW's marketing strategy is to sell ever changing Warhammer stuff to super fans who want to buy as much of it as they can get. Even the name of the shops is changing to Warhammer.
Obviously this does not suit people like me who do not want to spend endless money essentially to subscribe to a game that is never finished. I would like GW to 'finish' 40K, and make some new games.
Personally I think the 'superfan' concept is a false strategy as it relies on preaching to the converted, but how will GW convert people in the first place?
However, if successful we can expect the revenues to stabilise and perhaps even to start increasing over the next couple of years. If this happens, the no contact policy will have been vindicated.
Aye, but I suspect if it if it isn't successful, we won't have a lot of time to worry about it .. or shock horror we might be pleasantly surprised when GW actually gets with the rest of the gaming world out of necessity.
I am still adamant however that if someone running GW had a lick of sense, they'd be taking a heck of a lot more cash from the gaming table.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Blizzard is not even close to fair comparison, they may not always listen, but their communication with their fans is up there with some of the best.. Dev's themselves are on social media and will react to comments, they hold Blizzcon perhaps the most dedicated fan service event out there, they preview new content all the time, public test realm servers.. I mean I can really go on.
GW isn't even on the same planet as Blizzard when it comes to how they communicate with their customers.
Been following Blizz since the early nineties, really GW could learn a hell of a lot from them.
I have been a top ranking player (as in, comfortably holding a #1 ladder spot for months, until I quit) on Blizzard games; at one point in the distant past, I was the owner of a very popular fansite, and I can assure you that Blizzard fan negativity is a tsunami compared to GW negativity, when it really comes to it.
Yes, they have public forums. Yes, they have beta servers. Yes, they have devs that post up stuff (though this was a rarity until D3 got really bad and was in need of a reboot).
But the blues post over and over meaningless drivel, with "we understand and we're working on it" with and no resolution for months, followed by some massive overreaction that everyone hates. There is a nerf-buff cycle that makes Warhammer look so gentle in comparison; a class will go from "ZOMG PWN YOU!" to "ZOMG Waste of Time!" overnight. They will take an entire class of items which people invested tremendously in, and nerf it all in one fell swoop ("Attack speed too powerful! HALVE all the modifiers!"). And the beta servers are a funny thing. People scream at them, "This is stupid broken!" Four weeks later, BOOM, stupid broken goes onto live server. Or they fix it, but the last build introduces something else more stupid and broken
Another thing they do exactly the same as GW is that they playtest their games for very casual play (their own playtesters), and then the game is destroyed by powergamers who min/max gear and abilities, or multicharacter combinations. I also personally know GW employees and have played with them many times, and most of them are the furthest thing from powergamers. They actually think their games are hard, and are (genuinely) shocked when they see in front of their eyes their superboss on the hardest setting demolished in seconds.
But, my favorite is from my panic stricken friend: "My 10,000+ hour, top wizard in the world account is locked for cheating! Are you guys NUTS?" Blizzard response: "We're investigating a number of accounts and for your safety, we've suspended it. We'll get back to you." This actually happened to a really good friend, a top player, and made him quit the game, furious at the company (even though, two weeks later, they unlocked the account and apologized... sort of). On the bright side, he made, like, $20,000+ USD selling off his stuff
As opposed to GW, when I tell send a picture of a damaged sprue, I get a new sprue FedEx'ed to me.
GW can learn from Blizzard how to make 40k insanely addictive, and how to add polish to a super-professional level. But God almighty, they have nothing to teach in terms of how to treat customers.
Sorry, /end rant
I still love Blizzard though. And I will no doubt buy multiple copies of their next major game, and it will no doubt drain a significant portion of my life and reduce my painting output for quite a while.
Personally I think the 'superfan' concept is a false strategy as it relies on preaching to the converted, but how will GW convert people in the first place?
Yes, me too. I think this is a flawed strategy, without some way of making new customers. I don't think those superfans fall out of the sky.
None of that has anything to do with what we are discussing.. we are talking about setting up an interest in products, if you want to go down that route, may I direct you to the hundreds of GW based rules arguments and annoyances with what is a broken unbalanced system.
However when talking about showing what is coming, preview release info, in some cases years in advance (it is Blizz after all) and their willingness to talk to their customers about things, tell us what is coming, explain what changes are inbound.. even if some folks get in a tizz because their dps rotation dropped 0.3 this patch.. then Blizz is miles ahead.
I'm a huge fan of both, but GW is not communicating with their player base right now. and there is no way that can be wrapped up as anything but a bad thing.
Netsurfer733 wrote: No Games Days, no social media, downgraded White Dwarf, etc. etc. What is THEIR reason, in their eyes?
Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Beef_Commander wrote: Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.
My former local shop used to run events on the weekend. They used to give out calenders to everyone with all the stuff they were doing that month. That was, of course, at the inception of 5th edition the better part of a decade ago. Then GW enacted their one-man-store policy to cut costs. My local shop got moved to a smaller location in the mall, and the event support basically stopped. It's impossible to run events when only one guy and maybe the manager are at the store. Even if they tried, the turn-over rate increased dramatically and the shop had new employees every other month. I don't believe that shop is even open anymore.
I agree that hosting events is the way to keep customers interested, but that comes down to an individual effort because it has no support from GW. And frankly, the same is true of the Facebook pages. Most of them (including GW's) are automatically generated by Facebook and have no affiliation. They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.
Beef_Commander wrote: Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.
They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.
Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.
If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.
Beef_Commander wrote: Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.
They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.
Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.
If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.
Hang on are you trying to imply that people with at least half an interest in the hobby are jerks?
...to do something 'in spite of' does not mean to do something because you are spiteful.
Assuming you look up what that phrase means and continue to take issue with my position: I suggest the following. You like your local shop, you're on good terms with the employees right? Ask them what support headquarters gives them for the events. Ask them if they got any promotional products to give to customers, or even to display in the shop. Ask them if GW provides them any compensation for running these events, or if they are treated the same either way.
Beef_Commander wrote: Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.
They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.
Haha, the first post so you'll go easy on me comment... You're funny.
If you really think they do that out of spite for GW, the people who sign their checks, you maintain a skewed perspective.
Hang on are you trying to imply that people with at least half an interest in the hobby are jerks?
No, I think he's failing to appreciate what "in spite" means, or is trying to be clever.
None of that has anything to do with what we are discussing.. we are talking about setting up an interest in products, if you want to go down that route, may I direct you to the hundreds of GW based rules arguments and annoyances with what is a broken unbalanced system.
However when talking about showing what is coming, preview release info, in some cases years in advance (it is Blizz after all) and their willingness to talk to their customers about things, tell us what is coming, explain what changes are inbound.. even if some folks get in a tizz because their dps rotation dropped 0.3 this patch.. then Blizz is miles ahead.
I'm a huge fan of both, but GW is not communicating with their player base right now. and there is no way that can be wrapped up as anything but a bad thing.
You have attributed something to me that I did not write. (?!)
However, since you bring up Blizzard and "speaking of the future", I'll highlight an example of how telling people can get really annoyed with roadmaps that don't happen. - "Diablo 3 will absolutely be a PvP game! We're adding it into the game [insert time frame]." ... never happened - "DIablo 3 will have a an team skirmisher mode! Here's a Blizzcon video preview!" ... other than the video and a few people playing the preview.... never happened
The problem with roadmaps is that you have to do what you're going to do, and stick with the schedule. They are high negatives if you promise something and don't deliver, more so than if you don't promise it at all.
The problem with D3 during the days of Auction House was that people bought thousands of dollars worth of gear, rules changes would invalidate that and get them to buy thousands of dollars more of gear, and every time Blizz would make a 20% cut of it So at least, people perceive that this is not gamer-friendly, and pay-to-win. At the high end of the game, people payed thousands of dollars for *each piece of gear* using out. I still recall the most expensive weapon sold as being about USD $15k; like most everything else at some point, rendered the value of zero with a version patch.
The 40k equivalent would be, "Bolters are too weak. Now they are all S8." Next month, "Eldar are too powerful. Now they all run at max distance, but they are all T1" Next year, "Necron RPs are too powerful. Now they must roll double-sixes to resurrect." Next year, "Bolters are too powerful. But we're going to make chainswords all rending."
It would literally be impossible to not shelve a model as a game piece, as everything good would get nerfed at some point, replaced by something else that's a totally different build requiring that you remodel.
Getting totally off topic, but my original point was simply that Blizzard wrote games that I really liked (like Games Workshop) *despite* all the wonky, stupid things they do. It doesn't detract from the fun, though of course, if they didn't do wonky, stupid things, it would be MORE fun.
insaniak wrote: Balance has never been a huge factor for me. I'd certainly not complain if everything was better balanced, but I'm not a competitive enough player (and fairly used to being stomped even by less problematic armies) to care that much about it.
It also comes up that a more balanced game is better for everyone. Casual players don't lose out on anything and in fact may have more fun because a battle which would have been nigh on impossible to win (due to the units they like being absolutely terrible or whatever) is now a close fought game with lots of epic moments.
On the other hand the game is massively improved for competitive gamers as they now have more tools with which to build their armies, which leads to more varied lists and styles of play.
Beef_Commander wrote: Um, my local GW is having an event for the Age of Sigmar release, they have the Horus Heresy Weekender, Warhammer World reopened and had a huge deal.
The GW store keep individual Facebook pages, there are literally dozens of GW Facebook pages, and I for one think that scale is much smarter, much more locally based. Same goes for smaller events held at stores, and it helps keep them open.
The White Dwarf is released weekly rather than monthly with the content split into two publications, and honestly taking nice pics of minis ain't easy. And why should they cover anything done to death on the internet like tactics? I much prefer short interviews with designers.
Not to mention they totally restructured their hiring methods. They used to hire anyone with half an interest in the hobby, resulted in a lot of jerks getting hired. Now they emphasize a more customer service based employment.
These are all just matters of perspective, if you're not paying attention you won't notice.
Wow, first post. I'll try to be gentle then.
My former local shop used to run events on the weekend. They used to give out calenders to everyone with all the stuff they were doing that month. That was, of course, at the inception of 5th edition the better part of a decade ago. Then GW enacted their one-man-store policy to cut costs. My local shop got moved to a smaller location in the mall, and the event support basically stopped. It's impossible to run events when only one guy and maybe the manager are at the store. Even if they tried, the turn-over rate increased dramatically and the shop had new employees every other month. I don't believe that shop is even open anymore.
I agree that hosting events is the way to keep customers interested, but that comes down to an individual effort because it has no support from GW. And frankly, the same is true of the Facebook pages. Most of them (including GW's) are automatically generated by Facebook and have no affiliation. They are an individual effort of employees with no support from GW proper. If your larger local shop can run events, then I envy you, but the fact that they do is in spite of GW, not because of them.
As an aside to this, my local GW store is run by a really great guy. Really enthusiastic, loves the games and settings etc.
Back when I got back into 40K and Fantasy (end of 5th/beginning of 6th of 40K) he had two 6'x4' tables for people to come in on Thursdays and game until he closed. He had beginner stuff in the mornings of Saturdays and then big games in the afternoon which would alternate by week from 40K to Fantasy to LOTR. I can remember over the summer after the release of 6th there was escalating doubles campaigns for 40K (which was, miraculously, won by me and another Tau player. We even managed to scrape a draw against the Newcrons ) and Fantasy (which I won with my Dark Elves, woot!).
Now, he has two 4'x4' tables for teaching beginners only and can only run big games for certain events. You are no longer allowed to go in and game on a thursday just because. The only gaming allowed in the store is the few big events he's allowed to put on, unless you are a total newbie who needs to learn the rules. These changes are because of GWs new rules for their stores and they suck.
What are GW's new rules for their stores? Just curious, didn't know you couldn't play in them anymore. I don't go by my GW store very often.
By the way, I agree with you that the 2015 codex releases are massive improvements for competitive or dedicated players, as there are way, way more tools and variety in all of this year's codices. I also really love how the new rules encourage (but don't force) playing factions in a style consistent with their fluff by giving significant, but not game-breaking advantages to using those forces.
I read through a big chunk of the Dark Angels rules section yesterday, and that's an example of a FANTASTIC codex release. I think they hit that one out of the ballpark, especially compared to the previous codex. It has the perfect balance of power level (competitive with any codex now, including Craftworld), versatility, and internal balance.
I don't think there's been a single 2015 book that I haven't liked yet, with the weakest being Harlequins, because as cool as they are, it's not really complete enough to be a full faction, and the next being Imperial Knights, because at the end of the day, it's still just 1 model/kit.
insaniak wrote: Balance has never been a huge factor for me. I'd certainly not complain if everything was better balanced, but I'm not a competitive enough player (and fairly used to being stomped even by less problematic armies) to care that much about it.
It also comes up that a more balanced game is better for everyone. Casual players don't lose out on anything and in fact may have more fun because a battle which would have been nigh on impossible to win (due to the units they like being absolutely terrible or whatever) is now a close fought game with lots of epic moments.
On the other hand the game is massively improved for competitive gamers as they now have more tools with which to build their armies, which leads to more varied lists and styles of play.
Yeah, I've always said that balance is actually more important for casual games than for tournaments, as it's the pick-up gamer who gets hurt the most by armies being wildly out of whack.
Balance was a bigger issue for me when I was largely playing pickup games at gaming clubs. By 5th edition, my gaming time had mostly wound up being at tournaments (which were comped, or where I just expected to get curb-stomped anyway so it wasn't a big deal) or at home (where balance isn't an issue as we can fudge things to suit ourselves.
Talizvar wrote: The doom of GW had been foretold often.
For many of us when it happens we would have already moved on.
1. Historian's fallacy – occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision.[39] (Not to be confused with presentism, which is a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas, such as moral standards, are projected into the past.)
2. Appeal to tradition (argumentum ad antiquitatem) – a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true.[80]
3. Chronological snobbery – where a thesis is deemed incorrect because it was commonly held when something else, clearly false, was also commonly held.[85][86]
I could go on, such as the fallacy of assuming that something wasn't true in the past, it must not be true now, but why bother?
Wow you read a lot into that.
Assume laziness in not being succinct enough in what I was trying to say.... my bad.
From the prior sales figures and what hints we have of the present, they should not go out of business at this time and most likely at least in the following year.
What is a core truth of my "fallacy" that a downward trend is observed in their gross sales so without a correction applied the "doom" is anticipated with some measure of inevitability just the timing cannot seem to be figured out from the trend and there has not been a shortage of those voicing opinions / guesses on the date which made me add more "opinion" to that statement probably more for dramatic/comic relief (which appeared to have failed for at least one person).
I have voiced before that I believe Kirby will keep the company healthy enough to pay him dividends until his exit from the company with little planned for after that (staying the course). There is objective evidence that dividends are an important "strategy" to the point of taking out loans. Again, in another thread I found taxation of dividends as income are somewhat less in the UK so this is a great means for him to pay himself.
My opinion / hypothesis based on the measureable expansion of the hobby market (evidence given in other threads happening now... don't make me go find the link...) many GW customers will be persuaded away to purchase other product or at least split their spending dollars with other suppliers. As a market grows with more competing companies overall income decreases due to this split.
By the time GW's revenue reaches critical levels it would be largely due to that lack of customers hence less relevancy = not being missed because we have "moved on".
I could also go on that I tended to be one of those "doom sayers" so I thought it was rather tongue in cheek humor using a classic white-knight statement which lead to a fallacy 101 smack-down... your bad.
Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.
Bitz services cost money: warehouse space, staff, a couple bitzmobiles, mail order trolls, mistakes in packing, printing catalogs, maintaining a website with thousands of parts codes. Did bitz sales really account for a large sum of money relative to its cost and overhead? If no, then cut.
White Dwarf costs money: orginal art, monthly print runs of a large magazine, staff creating original rules and material, editors sifting through fan made content, photography, scratchbuilding scenery and tables. Did all of this production result in people buying subs and product? If no, then cut.
GTs and RTTs cost money: tourney packets, staffing events, transportation of staff and material, booking venues, "freeloading" Outriders, advertising, awards and trophies, t-shirts. Did any of these events generate a single sale for our retail outlets or webstore? If no, then cut.
Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.
the_Armyman wrote: Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line.
And that's a stupid way to run a company. Though I guess this is the same GW that believes that advertising is heresy...
the_Armyman wrote: Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.
Alternatively, offer product at a discount, or event-exclusive product, to encourage people to spend more at the event.
Or adjust your ticket pricing.
Or find a cheaper venue.
Or use more volunteers.
Or any of a myriad other ways to make the event more profitable.
Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.
To a certain degree, yes. The problem is, it's hard to quantify 'How happy are our customers' into that formula.
It's not at all uncommon for companies to do things that cost them money in the short term, for the benefit of making their customers feel shiny, or promoting brand loyalty.
If those little things that cost you money are what is keeping your customers happy and loyal, what does mathematics tell us will happen when you stop doing those things?
It's actually a part of the problem of being a public company. When you're a private company, you do things that are nice, because at the end of the day, the bottom line matters, but only to a certain extent.
In a public company, if you do things that give you goodwill, those intangible assets don't translate to the balance sheet, and in fact, you're penalized for them, at least in the short term. In the medium term, that advertising and goodwill better translate into someting tangible or you'll have pie on your face, goodwill or not. So you don't do those good deeds unless they're something you really love to do, OR, you're making so much money that the market will love you no matter what you do.
Advertising is a really tough one. One could ask what other miniature companies do to advertise, and other than very low cost Internet stuff and supporting events without spending a lot of money, they don't do much either. It's not a very big market, so things like television, radio are out. I think advertising in other wargaming and miniature magazines is pointless, as anywhere those are carried, White Dwarf is carried as well, and that's a form of advertising (as are the Warhammer/GW stores).
Being an armchair CEO, as a company like GW, I would support co-op advertising with local hobby shops in local papers, so long as they reach certain volumes. For instance, if you're ordering at least an average of $x / month over 12 months, we'll pay for 50% of your local ad buys up to $200 per week, as long as you prominently display Games Workshop and Warhammer on your ad and feature at least GW product game day/event.
the_Armyman wrote: Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.
Alternatively, offer product at a discount, or event-exclusive product, to encourage people to spend more at the event.
Or adjust your ticket pricing.
Or find a cheaper venue.
Or use more volunteers.
Or any of a myriad other ways to make the event more profitable.
Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.
To a certain degree, yes. The problem is, it's hard to quantify 'How happy are our customers' into that formula.
It's not at all uncommon for companies to do things that cost them money in the short term, for the benefit of making their customers feel shiny, or promoting brand loyalty.
If those little things that cost you money are what is keeping your customers happy and loyal, what does mathematics tell us will happen when you stop doing those things?
The point of the event wasn't to make a profit.
Its like... trying to make a profit off the toilet paper in your staff toilet. I mean, you *could* do it, but its completely missing the point.
So many of the things that GW has cut are taking away from the thing they really had going for them: that was, you couldn't escape GW.
Go down to a shopping center? GW there in prime real estate. In a newsagent? White dwarf. In a book store? GW Novels.
At a games store? Most people playing GW. Tired of 28mm mass battle games? Here, build a space fleet for your same faction; build a 6mm EPIC army; play with only 10 models in Necromunda.
That was why people call it the 'GW Hobby' - it was all-pervasive and branched out in to all the secondary industries as well!
White Dwarf, Games Day, Specialist Games, the novels, the whole line of hobby supplies: its designed to get people living and breathing GW, not needing to venture out to find other companies or stores. Just the *idea* of there being a convention where you can go for 2 days to play games, to be part of a community, to see great dioramas, is about building up GW to be something bigger than just a product that you buy. The thought of one day being able to get up on stage and get your Slayer Sword - not just some bland acrylic trophy, a literal SWORD! - for your hobby efforts, that builds GW up to be something BIGGER. This isn't wargaming. This is WARHAMMER.
The idea that everything you spend money on needs to directly make profit is pretty old. The biggest companies know that cutting costs to the bone by cutting services makes you profitable for a short while, and then it makes you irrelevant as you lose everything that distinguishes you from a million competing products. And thats the way that GW are heading - seriously, what do they have to offer that makes them objectively different than Privateer Press or any number of other competitors? Their stores are the last remaining holdout, but they're getting pushed out from the prime locations where they could perhaps have a purpose, towards the outskirts where they become more inconvenient than ordering online.
The reason GW has become so closed off is adherence to the 'Not profitable? Cut it!' mentality. And their way back is to start doing less profitable things to build good will, to build a community, and make Warhammer more than just a store.
Go down to a shopping center? GW there in prime real estate. In a newsagent? White dwarf. In a book store? GW Novels.
At a games store? Most people playing GW. Tired of 28mm mass battle games? Here, build a space fleet for your same faction; build a 6mm EPIC army; play with only 10 models in Necromunda.
That was why people call it the 'GW Hobby' - it was all-pervasive and branched out in to all the secondary industries as well!
White Dwarf, Games Day, Specialist Games, the novels, the whole line of hobby supplies: its designed to get people living and breathing GW, not needing to venture out to find other companies or stores. Just the *idea* of there being a convention where you can go for 2 days to play games, to be part of a community, to see great dioramas, is about building up GW to be something bigger than just a product that you buy. The thought of one day being able to get up on stage and get your Slayer Sword - not just some bland acrylic trophy, a literal SWORD! - for your hobby efforts, that builds GW up to be something BIGGER. This isn't wargaming. This is WARHAMMER.
All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Talys wrote: It's actually a part of the problem of being a public company. When you're a private company, you do things that are nice, because at the end of the day, the bottom line matters, but only to a certain extent.
In a public company, if you do things that give you goodwill, those intangible assets don't translate to the balance sheet, and in fact, you're penalized for them, at least in the short term. In the medium term, that advertising and goodwill better translate into someting tangible or you'll have pie on your face, goodwill or not. So you don't do those good deeds unless they're something you really love to do, OR, you're making so much money that the market will love you no matter what you do.
Advertising is a really tough one. One could ask what other miniature companies do to advertise, and other than very low cost Internet stuff and supporting events without spending a lot of money, they don't do much either. It's not a very big market, so things like television, radio are out. I think advertising in other wargaming and miniature magazines is pointless, as anywhere those are carried, White Dwarf is carried as well, and that's a form of advertising (as are the Warhammer/GW stores).
Being an armchair CEO, as a company like GW, I would support co-op advertising with local hobby shops in local papers, so long as they reach certain volumes. For instance, if you're ordering at least an average of $x / month over 12 months, we'll pay for 50% of your local ad buys up to $200 per week, as long as you prominently display Games Workshop and Warhammer on your ad and feature at least GW product game day/event.
FB is free. That would be more than they have now.
A blog. Free.
Get other blogs to review your stuff. Free.
BTW, just so I'm clear, I'm sadded by GW's current approach to the hobby. Games Day in Baltimore was a lot of fun when it was a 2-day event with registered games, bitz by the gram, and previews of upcoming releases. I loved the Summer Battle Tours, the worldwide campaigns linked to White Dwarf, and the free terrain and conversion tuts available from Black Gobbo. These were the things that made me love the company and open my wallet time and time again.
The lack of all these great things are what makes me cynical and untrustworthy of the company as it exists today.
Talys wrote: It's actually a part of the problem of being a public company. When you're a private company, you do things that are nice, because at the end of the day, the bottom line matters, but only to a certain extent.
In a public company, if you do things that give you goodwill, those intangible assets don't translate to the balance sheet, and in fact, you're penalized for them, at least in the short term. In the medium term, that advertising and goodwill better translate into someting tangible or you'll have pie on your face, goodwill or not. So you don't do those good deeds unless they're something you really love to do, OR, you're making so much money that the market will love you no matter what you do.
Advertising is a really tough one. One could ask what other miniature companies do to advertise, and other than very low cost Internet stuff and supporting events without spending a lot of money, they don't do much either. It's not a very big market, so things like television, radio are out. I think advertising in other wargaming and miniature magazines is pointless, as anywhere those are carried, White Dwarf is carried as well, and that's a form of advertising (as are the Warhammer/GW stores).
Being an armchair CEO, as a company like GW, I would support co-op advertising with local hobby shops in local papers, so long as they reach certain volumes. For instance, if you're ordering at least an average of $x / month over 12 months, we'll pay for 50% of your local ad buys up to $200 per week, as long as you prominently display Games Workshop and Warhammer on your ad and feature at least GW product game day/event.
FB is free. That would be more than they have now.
A blog. Free.
Get other blogs to review your stuff. Free.
They paid millions for a website how hard would it to add a forum to their webpage.
Go down to a shopping center? GW there in prime real estate. In a newsagent? White dwarf. In a book store? GW Novels.
At a games store? Most people playing GW. Tired of 28mm mass battle games? Here, build a space fleet for your same faction; build a 6mm EPIC army; play with only 10 models in Necromunda.
That was why people call it the 'GW Hobby' - it was all-pervasive and branched out in to all the secondary industries as well!
White Dwarf, Games Day, Specialist Games, the novels, the whole line of hobby supplies: its designed to get people living and breathing GW, not needing to venture out to find other companies or stores. Just the *idea* of there being a convention where you can go for 2 days to play games, to be part of a community, to see great dioramas, is about building up GW to be something bigger than just a product that you buy. The thought of one day being able to get up on stage and get your Slayer Sword - not just some bland acrylic trophy, a literal SWORD! - for your hobby efforts, that builds GW up to be something BIGGER. This isn't wargaming. This is WARHAMMER.
All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
And the GW of today is more like a fart in the wind.... Not pleasant, but it will pass.
It's closed off because they want you to have clubs and stuff. The whole Idea is that you must earn your place to be a part of the club. British stuff, you know Clubs and Chivarly
It came to the point where the forum software was rather outdated and clunky and in need of a re-vamp. And I think they had the option of doing that or closing it down.
I don't think it was anything to do with negative comments being posted on there, I seem to remember conversation being pretty positive but stinted as most posts consisted of 11-year olds writing 'Yay! Space Marines!' And it was pretty heavily moderated, with a long list of forum rules (inc. "no mention of Squats" which was pretty amusing )
What people don't seem to realise is that the whole "no communications with customers" and "no pre-release info" are actually still pretty recent policies in terms of the overall history of the company. It would be interesting to see how much more positive things would be now if they actually did those things.
Pacific wrote: It came to the point where the forum software was rather outdated and clunky and in need of a re-vamp.
That point was about the time the forums launched.
The rumour getting around at the time was that the forum was coded by someone in-house on the side... it was certainly lacking a lot of the functionality of other forums at the time.
But yes, when it came time to update it, they faced the prospect of having to actually pay for forum software.
And it was pretty heavily moderated, with a long list of forum rules (inc. "no mention of Squats" which was pretty amusing )
The rule on not talking about Squats was just a side-effect of people not being able to behave themselves. Any thread that mentioned Squats inevitably turned into a flamewar, so they just banned them to save themselves the trouble.
Games Days cost money: hall rental, staff, security, transportation of product and tables, marketing and advertising, flying staff all around the world. Did ticket sales and people purchasing product at the event really amount to a lot of money after it was all said and done? If no, then cut.
Bitz services cost money: warehouse space, staff, a couple bitzmobiles, mail order trolls, mistakes in packing, printing catalogs, maintaining a website with thousands of parts codes. Did bitz sales really account for a large sum of money relative to its cost and overhead? If no, then cut.
White Dwarf costs money: orginal art, monthly print runs of a large magazine, staff creating original rules and material, editors sifting through fan made content, photography, scratchbuilding scenery and tables. Did all of this production result in people buying subs and product? If no, then cut.
GTs and RTTs cost money: tourney packets, staffing events, transportation of staff and material, booking venues, "freeloading" Outriders, advertising, awards and trophies, t-shirts. Did any of these events generate a single sale for our retail outlets or webstore? If no, then cut.
Everything has a cost, and every penny of that cost must be recouped by a specific volume of sales. Unless GW can directly quantify sales to an expense, and unless the sales generated justify that expense, then that expense is bad for the bottom line. It's probably all down to a simple mathematical formula.
This line of thinking is exactly where I think GW and Kirby went off the rails. Again, when you are operating under the assumption that GW products are "collector's items" (which Kirby repeatedly and emphatically stated that he was) then all of the above look like a waste of money to you. Under that assumption, they're all nothing more than expensive trade shows and publications for which GW is shouldering all of the costs. No offense intended toward you at all, but reducing things to a simple mathematical cost / benefit analysis is incredibly myopic in the context of a product designed for social, in-person wargaming. It only makes sense when you have erroneously judged the GW value proposition and its core customer and their desires. It all goes back to that huge misjudgment on Kirby's part.
It is, unfortunately, nearly impossible to accurately quantify the direct effect of the items you mention on sales. In fact, there is likely little to no direct effect on sales. However, this is not a concept that is unfamiliar to many businesses. Do you think a full page L'Oreal ad in a women's magazine leads to direct sales for eye shadow? Some, maybe. Difficult to definitively quantify. But they do need to keep placing those ads.
With the full understanding that correlation is not causation, you might still have thought that GW would have looked into why sales continued to fall concurrent with all of these cost cutting measures. Not only did Kirby not look into it, he proudly proclaimed that GW did not ask the opinion of the peasants via market research. This all suggests to me that Kirby was drunk at the wheel and no one really cared. Can you imagine the head of any other company being so dismissive toward the very people to whom he owes his livelihood? Again, I have no axe to grind here at all. It's simply an observation you really can't avoid. His demonstrations of contempt for his customers were truly unique and, frankly, odd.
Never assume that just because someone carries a title like "CEO" that he knows what he is doing. You would be truly shocked by the incompetence at nearly all levels of corporate leadership. Or not, as the case may be.
Netsurfer733 wrote: Old news, and probably very much discussed by now. But I can't find anything about this online, and I'm getting back into the hobby so I really want to know. Bear in mind that I haven't been into the hobby since 3rd or 4th edition, so I haven't had any reason to understand these things until now (didn't know anyone else that was interested in playing until recently).
So why has Games Workshop become so closed off? No Games Days, no social media, downgraded White Dwarf, etc. etc. What is THEIR reason, in their eyes?
I'll be honest, I don't blame the GW for closing off. All they get is constant, vague comments about them "not caring" about their customers or their products.
Everything they release is criticised; people are demanding apologies from the GW for Finecast among other things.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have.
NoPoet wrote: I'll be honest, I don't blame the GW for closing off. All they get is constant, vague comments about them "not caring" about their customers or their products.
Everything they release is criticised; people are demanding apologies from the GW for Finecast among other things.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have.
People constantly amaze me.
Finecast needed an apology. The price of models increased despite using a cheaper material and, to make it even worse, the quality of the models took a sharp nosedive.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have
Yeah, repackaging other people's ideas and recycling your old product with a few, incremental, changes and a fat price rise really sucks.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have
Yeah, repackaging other people's ideas and recycling your old product with a few, incremental, changes and a fat price rise really sucks.
I actually think that box is pretty hot. Even though I don't play Fantasy or collect it except for the occasional model, if Age of Sigmar is in the ballpark of $100-$125 USD, I will happily buy a box. The amount of detail on those Sigmarites looks pretty insane -- I'll reserve judgment until I see the physical models, but they look about as detailed (more?) than anything I've seen in plastic. Who knows, I might even like the game.
I wonder if it comes with the pictured scenery bits; those are pretty cool too.
The Chaos guys look much more like, "more of the same", but heck, what do I know, I've never liked Chaos. Obviously, some people won't like the aesthetic of either. But let's look at it another way. If Mantic came out with exactly what was pictured (obviously with a different product name ), a lot of people who are poo-pooing Sigmar would be excited.
Talys wrote: I actually think that box is pretty hot. Even though I don't play Fantasy or collect it except for the occasional model, if Age of Sigmar is in the ballpark of $100-$125 USD, I will happily buy a box. The amount of detail on those Sigmarites looks pretty insane -- I'll reserve judgment until I see the physical models, but they look about as detailed (more?) than anything I've seen in plastic. Who knows, I might even like the game.
I wonder if it comes with the pictured scenery bits; those are pretty cool too.
The Chaos guys look much more like, "more of the same", but heck, what do I know, I've never liked Chaos. Obviously, some people won't like the aesthetic of either. But let's look at it another way. If Mantic came out with exactly what was pictured (obviously with a different product name ), a lot of people who are poo-pooing Sigmar would be excited.
No, I'd say the same thing, they look like copies of 40k stuff complete with Sanguiary Guard and helbrutes.
MWHistorian wrote: No, I'd say the same thing, they look like copies of 40k stuff complete with Sanguiary Guard and helbrutes.
Yeah, I've seen other people say that; I just don't agree. The wings are totally different, armor, heads, shields, weapons, etc. You wouldn't get away with using those models as proxies for Sanguinary guard or for hellbrutes You also see a lot of people saying, "they're a rip off of [insert game/art]".
But anyhow, that's just me. I generally like GW models, and I like the whole "Heroic World of Warcraft" aesthetic of huge shoulders, no neck, exaggerated lines, and superdefined muscles, so what can I say.
Oh well, party on. 30% sale at IKEA, so I'm gonna head down and pick up some more shelves for the gaming basement and maybe a half dozen more display cases Maybe one will end up holding some Fantasy stuff, who knows!
NoPoet wrote: I'll be honest, I don't blame the GW for closing off. All they get is constant, vague comments about them "not caring" about their customers or their products.
Everything they release is criticised; people are demanding apologies from the GW for Finecast among other things.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have.
People constantly amaze me.
If you're getting that kind of criticism, though, you'd be amazed at how much of that can be alleviated or even completely reversed by communicating with your players. Tell people why a change is being made, make some vague explanation about why prices go up, admit that your mistakes were mistakes and will be corrected.
GW still make some of the very best looking plastic models, their paint is still good enough that even many many non-GW hobbyists still use it over Vallejo/P3/etc... This company has a lot going for them, and most of their fans don't generally seem bothered that the game itself is not very well designed. They love the universe and the characters and they are willing to forgive a lot of what GW does wrong. All GW has to do is step out from behind the damn curtain and ASK FOR THAT FORGIVENESS.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have
Yeah, repackaging other people's ideas and recycling your old product with a few, incremental, changes and a fat price rise really sucks.
Let's be honest. If GW opened up a Facebook page (which, didn't they a few years back?) or any form of social media, the FIRST thing that's going to happen is that every GW hater that exists online (and we've seen how many of them there are on DakkaDakka already) will either criticize, bash, or otherwise troll their existence. Any tangible, useful feedback they can get from the community would be drowned out in a sea of negativity.
The only way I can see this working out is if they publicly make a statement saying "Hey, look, we know we've been pretty gak communicating with you guys, and we want to make our business better, let's start with a clean slate and see if we can make this relationship work?" This is a double-edged sword, because on one hand it could work - on the other hand others (particularly investors) may see this as an admission by GW that they're suffering financially, and that this is a last-ditch attempt to save the company. The latter risks a self-fulfilling prophecy as hobbyists stop buying models for fear of the game dying, and investors dump stock early hoping to cash out before a bankruptcy announcement.
What could they possibly have done? or do they mean donating to "good will"
"Goodwill", in general accounting principles, is most commonly seen as an intangible asset that typically arises during an acquisition, where the acquirer pays more than the actual market value of what was bought over. For example, Google might buy a small app development company for $100 million, but the actual market value of the assets are $20 million. When the acquired company's balance sheet is brought into the acquirer's, the resultant difference of $80 million is listed under assets as "Goodwill".
However, given that I don't think GW has acquired any other company anytime recently, I suspect a slightly different definition than the common one: that is, intangible assets representing a value of the business that is unattributable to any other asset, typically one that would be income-producing. This can include a valuation of a customer base (i.e. all the users of WhatsApp when it was acquired) or brand capital (i.e. the name recognition of Instagram). What this actually is to GW, unless it's stated somewhere, we won't know.
Enigwolf wrote: Let's be honest. If GW opened up a Facebook page (which, didn't they a few years back?) or any form of social media, the FIRST thing that's going to happen is that every GW hater that exists online (and we've seen how many of them there are on DakkaDakka already) will either criticize, bash, or otherwise troll their existence. Any tangible, useful feedback they can get from the community would be drowned out in a sea of negativity.
The only way I can see this working out is if they publicly make a statement saying "Hey, look, we know we've been pretty gak communicating with you guys, and we want to make our business better, let's start with a clean slate and see if we can make this relationship work?" This is a double-edged sword, because on one hand it could work - on the other hand others (particularly investors) may see this as an admission by GW that they're suffering financially, and that this is a last-ditch attempt to save the company. The latter risks a self-fulfilling prophecy as hobbyists stop buying models for fear of the game dying, and investors dump stock early hoping to cash out before a bankruptcy announcement.
The fact you characterise people who criticise the way GW goes about its business as haters explains why you think there's a risk in your suggestions.
Few people hate GW, the vast majority of ill feeling is born from people getting frustrated that a thing they love and are heavily invested in is mismanaged, or that they feel they've been marginalised for some reason (such as price) or, personally, because they'd already done the hard part, they were utterly dominant and positioned at the top of the market, and through little else than their own incompetence have begun to let that position slide. Let's face it, the likes of Warmachine would never have got the traction it has if everyone was happy with 40K.
If GW opened up and tried to build a relationship with their customers again, sure, there'd be backlash initially, but I sincerely believe if they stayed the course it would be fantastic for the long term health of the company.
@Az - There are people who dislike GW (and may or may not vocalize it), and then there are "GW Haters". The latter are no different than "Windows Haters" or "iPhone Haters" or "Samsung Haters". They are highly vocal, and run around online making a lot of noise. It doesn't really matter what GW (or Apple, or Google, or Microsoft) does; these people will never be appeased. You also have the people who just plain don't like large, successful corporations (and prefer smaller enterprises that are almost universally friendlier). Just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone out as one! Just making the distinction.
I don't think Enigwolf is calling EVERYONE who doesn't love GW a "GW Hater"; just that they exist. Though I shouldn't speak for him Just my reading of it.
I kind of disagree with what you say about Warmachines, though, by the way. I think they would have done fine even if GW was well-loved by all. Their aesthetic is significantly different (much more steampunk), plus it's a different game. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with a low model count skirmisher, and I think there's a market for it. Plus, it's a fine game on its own merits (even if it's not my favorite), and people can play more than one game or collect more than one line of miniatures.
What GW should do is have a 30% off sale on space marines for a weekend. Ikea put a 30% off sale on their most popular bookcases, and you'd think they were giving them away for free. There's a bazillion people here with cartloads of bookcases. I thought the world was going all digital or something. The irony is that I'm lined up in this infernal mess and what I'm mostly buying is their display cases, which aren't on sale, LOL. Gawd, I can be stupid.
Talys wrote: @Az - There are people who dislike GW (and may or may not vocalize it), and then there are "GW Haters". The latter are no different than "Windows Haters" or "iPhone Haters" or "Samsung Haters". They are highly vocal, and run around online making a lot of noise. It doesn't really matter what GW (or Apple, or Google, or Microsoft) does; these people will never be appeased. You also have the people who just plain don't like large, successful corporations (and prefer smaller enterprises that are almost universally friendlier). Just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone out as one! Just making the distinction.
I don't think Enigwolf is calling EVERYONE who doesn't love GW a "GW Hater"; just that they exist. Though I shouldn't speak for him Just my reading of it.
Explained it spot-on. I do realize that there are plenty of people with valid criticisms of GW's business operations (heck, I have enough of them myself), but I was not lumping them together in the "GW hater" group that I mentioned in my post. But after seeing the last time GW had a facebook page, the "OMG I HATE GW" noise far outweighed the valid feedback GW got.
P.S. I would also appreciate it if you stopped trying to antagonize me in every post you have to quote me on.
Regardless of the intent, the use of the term "hater" is much the same as "white knight" on this board, it's shorthand for "person who holds a differing opinion to mine."
By using such a loaded phrase, intentionally or no, it slanted the tone of your whole post.
And it's irrelevant. EVERY company has "haters," as you mean the term. So do the Kardasians and, you know, everybody else with any amount of fame or notoriety. GW, however, are amongst the few who think that avoiding your "haters" is so desperately important that they will also gladly shut themselves off from the people who adore them.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have
Yeah, repackaging other people's ideas and recycling your old product with a few, incremental, changes and a fat price rise really sucks.
Yeah, that would suck.
I actually wonder if anyone in my Kings of War group is going to buy that set, to add to their Basilean army.... (Not a complaint, exactly - a sale is a sale, even if the minis are used in someone else's game.)
Hell, a great many of my RPG minis are GW.... and over a decade old, at this point.
Keep in mind the context of what Enigwolf said, though, which I think is true.
Enigwolf wrote: If GW opened up a Facebook page (which, didn't they a few years back?) or any form of social media, the FIRST thing that's going to happen is that every GW hater that exists online (and we've seen how many of them there are on DakkaDakka already) will either criticize, bash, or otherwise troll their existence. Any tangible, useful feedback they can get from the community would be drowned out in a sea of negativity.
That doesn't imply that everyone who doesn't like GW is a "hater", just that the most zealous of the people who don't like GW would hop onto an official forum or Facebook page to pile on about how GW sucks, is mismanaged, is going to die a horrible death, and can't produce anything original anymore.
I mean, that's not really rocket science. The question is, does the company want to hire 3+ community managers to monitor it 24/7 (like Blizzard does), or do they just say "whatever, not worth the trouble"?
While I agree that many successful companies have vocal haters, not all do. For example, I've never heard of any WD-40 or Ikea or Milwaukee (power tools) haters. Can you tell I'm doing home stuff today? Cutting into my painting time! Grrr By the way, Kardasians are a terrible example because they're so sensational. They rank up their with Donald Trump in divisiveness of "Love/Hate". Take Glen Campbell (Rhinestone Cowboy). No Glen Campbell haters!
That they'd have a huge backlog of vitriol to deal with is nobody's fault but GW's.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, and, you know what? Well managed, the vitriol would drop to manageable levels and the valuable stuff come more to the fore within a month or two.
While I agree that many successful companies have vocal haters, not all do. For example, I've never heard of any WD-40 or Ikea or Milwaukee (power tools) haters. Can you tell I'm doing home stuff today? Cutting into my painting time! Grrr
I always think of home stuff as practice for Titan-building. So that when I finally get one, I don't gak it up.
Azreal13 wrote: That they'd have a huge backlog of vitriol to deal with is nobody's fault but GW's.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, and, you know what? Well managed, the vitriol would drop to manageable levels and the valuable stuff come more to the fore within a month or two.
It's an opinion worthy of debate. I'm sure they've had the same debate over at GW.
Azreal13 wrote: That they'd have a huge backlog of vitriol to deal with is nobody's fault but GW's.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, and, you know what? Well managed, the vitriol would drop to manageable levels and the valuable stuff come more to the fore within a month or two.
I see that you're based in the UK. Why not shoot GW an email and offer to be the community manager for a Facebook page for them and see what they say?
While I agree that many successful companies have vocal haters, not all do. For example, I've never heard of any WD-40 or Ikea or Milwaukee (power tools) haters. Can you tell I'm doing home stuff today? Cutting into my painting time! Grrr
I always think of home stuff as practice for Titan-building. So that when I finally get one, I don't gak it up.
While I agree that many successful companies have vocal haters, not all do. For example, I've never heard of any WD-40 or Ikea or Milwaukee (power tools) haters. Can you tell I'm doing home stuff today? Cutting into my painting time! Grrr
I always think of home stuff as practice for Titan-building. So that when I finally get one, I don't gak it up.
Unfortunately, I'd have to get rid of like... a lazy boy to fit it hahahaha. And it would take a year to paint.
I wonder if you can cannonball imperial guard out of the weapons...
Yes I did I mentioned this over in the FW News & Rumors thread, but since you can buy the head alone, I'm gonna stick speakers and LEDs in it/a plinth to mount it on with an embedded Arduino microcontroller, and have a button that causes the head to emit the Mass Effect Reaper buzzing or War of the Worlds war horns sounds. And I'll name him Bob.
They won't take up an online presence within social media again, not because they are worried about haters, as Azreal has rightly said that could be easily managed and derogatory posts deleted. Each store has a fb page, but it won't go further. I do think that they should have a public voice outside of wd, however, I think a little pr would go a long way, and stop speculation from becoming 'fact' through repetition without rebuttal.
Azreal13 wrote: That they'd have a huge backlog of vitriol to deal with is nobody's fault but GW's.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, and, you know what? Well managed, the vitriol would drop to manageable levels and the valuable stuff come more to the fore within a month or two.
I see that you're based in the UK. Why not shoot GW an email and offer to be the community manager for a Facebook page for them and see what they say?
I'm sorry, while I probably have the skills, I don't think I could fake the attitude.
JamesY wrote: They won't take up an online presence within social media again, not because they are worried about haters, as Azreal has rightly said that could be easily managed and derogatory posts deleted. Each store has a fb page, but it won't go further. I do think that they should have a public voice outside of wd, however, I think a little pr would go a long way, and stop speculation from becoming 'fact' through repetition without rebuttal.
JamesY wrote: They won't take up an online presence within social media again, not because they are worried about haters, as Azreal has rightly said that could be easily managed and derogatory posts deleted. Each store has a fb page, but it won't go further. I do think that they should have a public voice outside of wd, however, I think a little pr would go a long way, and stop speculation from becoming 'fact' through repetition without rebuttal.
Stop spouting rubbish, in the days before you lumped as all together as haterz we used to have a lot of contact with GW staff online and it didn't immediately devolve into hate posts, in fact it rarely did.
If GW actually gave a gak about their public image it wouldn't be hard to turn things around.
WTF is that Age of Sigmar thing?! I want Fantasy to be Fantasy, not medieval 40k. I mean I think from the screencap the models look technically good, but... ugh. Just no.
As a player of fantasy games I'm not really looking for 40k in medieval times. So... not buying that. I'm pretty sure a lot of Fantasy players will be passing on that one too.
heartserenade wrote: WTF is that Age of Sigmar thing?! I want Fantasy to be Fantasy, not medieval 40k. I mean I think from the screencap the models look technically good, but... ugh. Just no.
As a player of fantasy games I'm not really looking for 40k in medieval times. So... not buying that. I'm pretty sure a lot of Fantasy players will be passing on that one too.
They should really do market research.
Keep in mind that 40k was just Fantasy in space... And space marines are just medieval knights with guns. Well, except the ones with swords, maces, axes, hammers, shields and staves I mean, they all have heraldry, 40,000 years in the future
Stopped by my store today, and the vibe for Sigmar seems pretty good. Which is to say, people who had no interest in WHFB are actually considering spending money on Fantasy.
I think Forgeworld is a great example of what GW *could* be doing to build goodwill. They show off teasers of their upcoming projects, talk about plans they have for one project or another, actually adjust pricing down if things don't sell right (Tech Thralls went from 5 to 10 models and stayed the same price!!). They had their own Facebook page, but I believe GW mandated they remove it (along with Black Library's page).
Lo and behold, FW doesn't have this reputation as a repugnant company. Expensive yes, but there isn't this perception that they're trying to extract money from you. GW does nothing to fight that-typically they just make it worse. Take the new Mechanicus codex: previously, codexes were raised from $35 to $50 to accommodate for hardback or some-such, although that didn't slow their releases/re-release down. Then the Mechanicus comes out, and GW effectively makes the codex for that army $70. In this case, the books are not only expensive, but they have a distinct feeling of being a rip-off, because why couldn't they have just been put together as one army in a $50 book?
In my opinion, GW is closed off because management doesn't care what customer's opinions of the company are. They think people will buy their "miniatures of jewel-like wonder" (trademark Mark Wells) no matter what. The plastic crack rules all.
heartserenade wrote: WTF is that Age of Sigmar thing?! I want Fantasy to be Fantasy, not medieval 40k. I mean I think from the screencap the models look technically good, but... ugh. Just no.
As a player of fantasy games I'm not really looking for 40k in medieval times. So... not buying that. I'm pretty sure a lot of Fantasy players will be passing on that one too.
They should really do market research.
Keep in mind that 40k was just Fantasy in space... And space marines are just medieval knights with guns. Well, except the ones with swords, maces, axes, hammers, shields and staves I mean, they all have heraldry, 40,000 years in the future
Stopped by my store today, and the vibe for Sigmar seems pretty good. Which is to say, people who had no interest in WHFB are actually considering spending money on Fantasy.
Well, and I realize this is a bit off-topic, how many people were interested in playing Fantasy because they would get into the armies that exist in WHFB now, as opposed to everyone who just wants to play Fantasy's equivalent demi-god paladin guys? I mean, they have a freaking Chaplain in the picture- it's just an opportunity to play the exact same army in another game. \
I'm kind of groaning at the thought of what WH-AOS games are going to look like- half to 3/4th's of all games having one side being these Sigmarites, and the other being Chaos or someone's old WHFB army converted over. I already *hated* that about 40k, so I'm definitely not looking forward to it with Fantasy.
Talys wrote: @The Auld Grump - I've heard that sentiment passed around, actually (Basileans for KoW).
I see the resemblance in the paint job (with Cyngar, too). But the models... really?
Really.
Yes, the GW sculpts are not the same, but there are enough similarities to fit into a Basilean army.
The Angels, in particular.
Remember - Mantic allows folks to use non-Mantic miniatures in their games, even at tournaments. So people that play Kings of War are a lot more likely to use miniatures that they like, rather than ones that they are required to use.
I do not think that I have ever met a Kings of War player that complained because the army they were facing on the table was comprised of repurposed GW miniatures. Or Reaper miniatures. Or Heresy. Heck, Mantic has bundled Avatar of War miniatures in some of the armies that they sold on their website.
Plus, the irony that GW is now borrowing ideas from Mantic.... And, yes, I do believe that GW is knowingly borrowing, and is not as unaware of their competition as they might claim. (Just as they were well aware of the similarities between the British Mk I Tank and the Landraider - despite what they claimed at the trial.)
Hell, I suspect some of their game designers may actually play Kings of War.... (Not a complaint - I know for a fact that game designers at Paizo play other companies' games. (As does their CEO.))
I think that it would do a good deal to help GW if their upper management actually started participating in the hobby.
The Auld Grump
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Accolade wrote: I think Forgeworld is a great example of what GW *could* be doing to build goodwill. They show off teasers of their upcoming projects, talk about plans they have for one project or another, actually adjust pricing down if things don't sell right (Tech Thralls went from 5 to 10 models and stayed the same price!!). They had their own Facebook page, but I believe GW mandated they remove it (along with Black Library's page).
Lo and behold, FW doesn't have this reputation as a repugnant company. Expensive yes, but there isn't this perception that they're trying to extract money from you. GW does nothing to fight that-typically they just make it worse. Take the new Mechanicus codex: previously, codexes were raised from $35 to $50 to accommodate for hardback or some-such, although that didn't slow their releases/re-release down. Then the Mechanicus comes out, and GW effectively makes the codex for that army $70. In this case, the books are not only expensive, but they have a distinct feeling of being a rip-off, because why couldn't they have just been put together as one army in a $50 book?
In my opinion, GW is closed off because management doesn't care what customer's opinions of the company are. They think people will buy their "miniatures of jewel-like wonder" (trademark Mark Wells) no matter what. The plastic crack rules all.
More, that the management does not like being told that they are wrong - especially when the evidence is piling up that they are wrong.
They are becoming defensive, to the point of paranoia.
They believed that their IP would be their moat and castle, only to discover that their moat and castle are made of sand. (The Chapterhouse case could, and should, have gone a great deal worse for GW.)
They have an overweening belief in their own position, and do not like that the position is now being challenged.
On the plus side, future financial reports will not need to brush a million or so pounds spent on legal actions under a rug.
That lesson, I believe, they have finally learned.
But I see few signs that they have learned anything else. Hubris, pure and simple, is their greatest failure. And until Kirby and the Kronies are given the boot... I do not see the company recovering.
Attempting a rapprochement after getting rid of them would be much more likely to succeed.
NoPoet wrote: I'll be honest, I don't blame the GW for closing off. All they get is constant, vague comments about them "not caring" about their customers or their products.
Everything they release is criticised; people are demanding apologies from the GW for Finecast among other things.
And yet I'm willing to bet many of these same people forgive Apple for selling way overpriced products which, relatively speaking, take yesteryear's ideas or very niche ideas and present them as today's advancement that everyone must have.
People constantly amaze me.
I think the difference between apple and GW is that you don't assemble and paint you iPhones/iPads, I think if you think about how many hours people spend painting models, many have probably devoted years to just that. This will no doubt create some kind of emotional bond because it's something you have spent a lot of time on. I think the lack of quality control with the initial is to blame for the backlash, they must of had a lot of returned models for them to stop making models in finecast, the name of the product and the boasts the company made about how it was the best thing since sliced bread really didn't them any favors.
Enigwolf wrote: Let's be honest. If GW opened up a Facebook page (which, didn't they a few years back?) or any form of social media, the FIRST thing that's going to happen is that every GW hater that exists online (and we've seen how many of them there are on DakkaDakka already) will either criticize, bash, or otherwise troll their existence. Any tangible, useful feedback they can get from the community would be drowned out in a sea of negativity.
I think for someone to actually take the time to post negative posts about GW products indicates they are very passionate about them. I don't really like 40k, it's rare I even look at what's been produced for 40k, let alone comment on it because frankly, I don't care.
Don't forget the stormcast are a new faction, and are not the new look for empire. The chaos look the same as the current range, who knows what the men will look like when the new range comes out?
@itsonlyme - call me crazy, but I think there are people with more emotional bonds with their iPhones and iPads than I'll ever be with my miniatures (and spend more time with them).
For cripes sakes, in China, I've heard of multiple people selling their own body parts (like a kidney) in exchange for an iPad. That is just insane!
On the other hand Apple has plenty of haters -- the super vocal ultra zealots that troll every news story or product release. I think iPhone/iPad and Xbox each have about 100 times more haters than GW has of people who know they even exist
But what can I say, I'm a model piggy when it comes to whatever faction I happen to like at the moment.
Also, remember, they have dedicated sales reps that talk to 
