Gallahad wrote: New helmets are a definite downgrade. The rivets make it look too brutish compared to the rest of their armor.
I actually like the new head better. The closer the mask looks to a helmet, the better in my book. To each their own, of course.
But I have to wonder about what's wrong with the rivets? They're present on other parts of the armor as well. They're present on the very first Sigmarines. It's hardly a new or isolated element.
Personally I think it's a good element to have as well. As far as I'm concerned painting this style of armor (which you'll also find on Sororitas models that also have rivets) is more pleasing with little elements that stand out. Too clean and it just ends up looking and feeling dull.
I don't mind the rivets, despite them often being both impractical and implausible. Something has to break up the uniform amour plates a little, and most of the details that would do that on actual armour just don't work at this scale.
Skaven and Stormcast I expect will see many of the models simply replaced with new sculpts come the update this mid-year. Skaven its honestly expected to see some shakeup; more of a hsock for stormcast.
Beast of Chaos being totally removed is almost bonkers. I get that GW wants to draw a line between the two games but that one sounds daft.
Orks - yeah honestly I do get that split but still rough for ork players in AoS.
Slaves I REALLY hate seeing all those warbands going. they are so diverse and such great models. Balance wise I DO get it because they were all kind of tripping over each other in the same slot; but its a shame to see them removed form the game
Honestly BOC being removed sounds really bad as a move. The rest kind of makes sense on some fronts, but doing it all at once might get a LOT of backlash
James12345 wrote: They really don't want you to be able to use an army in old world and age of sigmar damn. Such a dumb marketing move
What I don't get is GW has the Dark Elf army sitting right there in cities of Sigmar doing NOTHING with them. The only thing they did was a token "build dark elf army expansion" once with the Daughters of Khaine. Otherwise that whole army has sat in utter limbo. Why take BoC out but leave the Dark Elf force in.
James12345 wrote: They really don't want you to be able to use an army in old world and age of sigmar damn. Such a dumb marketing move
What I don't get is GW has the Dark Elf army sitting right there in cities of Sigmar doing NOTHING with them. The only thing they did was a token "build dark elf army expansion" once with the Daughters of Khaine. Otherwise that whole army has sat in utter limbo. Why take BoC out but leave the Dark Elf force in.
Because Dark Elves are a Legends army and Beastmen aren't.
That's a really, REALLY gakky thing to do to people in the year of our Lord 2024.
Yeah I thought AoS was past its army killing phase
Also it just strikes me a LOT of those stormcast models aren't even that old! Some were even starter box models last edition. That's crazy - that's a 3 year lifespan!
nicer to see most of the sigmarines they pushed through the mortal realms series and earlier starter sets getting squatted
really leaves a feeling of "why bother?" to the idea of getting anything when its going to get wiped, likely to be replaced with something essentially the same but with a totally different name
Yeah, but you have to expect that DE will be removed from AOS and move back to TOW as soon as they release the second half of the COS range this edition. It's maybe just a year further away.
It's a huge shame to lose the Warcry models, some of them are very characterful for conversions etc.
Given they are probably not getting imminently replaced by Thunderstrike kits, I am surprised they are killing off the Sacrosanct too. No Primaris/Firstborn ongoing split here I guess.
Hopefully the Skaven kits all do get replaced for the sake of TOW players. Bonesplittaz are also presumably heading there even if it doesn't explicitly say so.
Stormcasts are likely to receive updated armour kits for most of the entries, so you'll likely be able to use your old models as substitutes. I assume the same is true for Skaven core troops and at least some of the characters.
His Master's Voice wrote: Stormcasts are likely to receive updated armour kits for most of the entries, so you'll likely be able to use your old models as substitutes. I assume the same is true for Skaven core troops and at least some of the characters.
Beasts and Orc players got their teeth kicked in.
and Orcs not for the first time either
I'm quite open to a new set or rules where I already have the models usually, though with GW there is now a near certainty they will try to invalidate existing models in some way leaving only more "casual" games possible
and for more casual games, to be honest earlier rules editions are just fine as well anyway.
the 10th 40k as a rule set works nicely, I dare say 4th AoS will be similar, I also suspect it will end up feeling so bland as to be not worth bothering with. no more continued adventures of... as they have all been put out to pasture
That is just absurd how much stuff they're discontinuing. Entire miniature ranges just suddenly gone, including miniatures that aren't even from that long ago. It comes across just so poorly and reminds me of what happened with going from WHFB to AoS all over again.
Hm, that's surprising. For the Stormcast i would have thought if anything it would have been the Vanguard chamber. But i suspect it will probably be as above and be another re-sculpt further down the line. Shame about Astreia though, she was a personal favourite. Although i assume the various hero's (Celestant, Castellant etc) will all just get the Thunderstrike treatment rather than just being gone, so it's not as big a cut as it looks.
Beasts is the bigger surprise. I always felt they had a bigger upturn in popularity in AoS than they ever did in fantasy. So i guess they're just getting punted over there to be ignored as well.
I'm not surprised by any of the metal skaven stuff (or the gakky rat ogres). But clanrats and stormvermin? While keeping the plague monks? Weird. I know the range is getting revamped, but the stormvermin are great models.
Beasts and savage orcs getting kicked isn't as shocking as it could be (especially savage orcs). The dark elves being left in limbo is actually more surprising.
GW having self-awareness about the size of the stormcast range is also a shock.
The warcry warbands getting flushed is probably healthy for cleanup, but they could have been made into a generic unit entry. I'm sure the old marauders will finally vanish as well.
GaroRobe wrote: Clan rats will likely play a big role in the new boxset
Exactly - a good many of the skaven I'd expect to see new sculpts for or new ideas - eg the weapon teams might be reworked into something new (we've already seen that gun on a platform that might replace the gattling team)
Same for me on the Unmade - but I'm not panic buying them. My Slaves army is a potential force years away building up (I've got Slaanesh, Ossiarchs and DoK before that)
There are a few shocks in the list of mini’s, but most of it makes sense. IMO, they could’ve went harder into the Stormcast and StD.
Sad to see the BoC go, their recent battletome was pretty wild. I guess it was a last hurrah to bring up sales and it didn’t produce. Fare thee well in TOW!
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Huh, i wonder if the Horns of Hashut are being pulled because they're being pushed over into Chaos Dwarves?
I very much doubt it. They're just killing everything from Warcry that isn't pretty new.
Well we have very strong reason to believe CD's are coming. So it wouldn't surprise if they're pulling them out for now to re-organise. And they're a release that came from the current edition.
I wish I have loaded upon skaven awhile back for TOW. Clanrats and stormvermin, as well as some characters will probably get replaced with something similar, but not sure it will be better (just like the boyz for orks)
Savage orcs- damn.. Old World Rebox maybe? Lack of any mention of that in their column (unlike the beastmen) is veryyyy worrying. It’s weird as well, as savage orcs are quite unique. More so than “kruleboyz” or “not black orcs” which look generic as all gak.
A couple of warcry warbands getting the shot in the head is a shame as well - wanted that beastman for mordheim and the untamed for marauders in my slaanesh WoC.
Was very close to buying some of those things right about now, after reading the news.. but decided “nah”.
Stormcasts - don’t care, but can empathise with people, who like them.
It’s probably the second biggest culling since death of WHFB? Maybe second only to the the one where all high elves, empire and wood elves got massacred.
All in all, I’m more sad for the products that were still left over from WhFB days. But I can imagine all those stormcasts (whose range was immensely rich compared to others) and a dozen warcry bands were not selling all that well.
Honestly, I am more surprised that it has taken GW this long. They want to silo their games, so there is little to no cross compatibility. Beastmen were always in a very precarious position within AOS, don't think they ever got a new AOS styled model, just a new Beastlord character... which had the design aesthetics of WFB.
A lot of the model range for AoS, have been 1 foot in AoS, and the rest of their body in WFB. Now with TOW, it allows GW to make a cleaner cut between the games. I imagine we'll see lore of this in the future, Dwarfs and Chaos Mortals will be next I imagine.
As for Stormcast, well... they are Marines of that setting, so their range is heavily bloated and in need of a trim. What is going to be interesting is when the Stormcast get their equivalent Primaris event/redesign.
"Two factions, Beasts of Chaos and Bonesplitterz, as well as a number of older Stormcast Eternals from the Sacrosanct and Warrior chambers, will be receiving free-to-download digital battletomes."
I Collect Exclusively Sacrosanct, Orcs with Bonesplitterz and goblins... meaning Only my goblins army will continue the others bye bye... Sure! It's not a minor thing here its full armies and dozens of models. GW your drunk.
Further this BS!
They Killed the Old world made us switch to new bases new AOS armies etc... now they kill the sacrosanct new AOS army and discontinue others... and bring back Old world. In short inconsistent unsteady and constant rules changes and game switches drives me away from any rules or games from GW. Nice models GW but the rest is total discardable garbage.
Skaven and having a lot of units removed means they will get a lot of new units. (We already kinda knew that)
The new Beastlord was nice... Shame they will not rework the rest of the range for Beasts... I guess they will move them to TOW.
And I guess that means that now all the orks are civilized. No more savage orks for AOS.
I'm not sure why they remove the Warcry warbands... although they did leave the Darkoath Savagers.
What's weird is that they are removing just 2 Underworlds warbands and all these Stormcast that have no place in TOW...
As for Stormcast, well... they are Marines of that setting, so their range is heavily bloated and in need of a trim. What is going to be interesting is when the Stormcast get their equivalent Primaris event/redesign.
Aren't Thunderstrike their rough Primaris/Mark X equivalent?
Savage orcs- damn.. Old World Rebox maybe? Lack of any mention of that in their column (unlike the beastmen) is veryyyy worrying. It’s weird as well, as savage orcs are quite unique. More so than “kruleboyz” or “not black orcs” which look generic as all gak.
Imo, Kruleboyz are more unique than Savage Orcs or even WFB-style Orcs (including Ironjawz). But then, I never liked Savage Orcs, even back in the WFB days. I felt as if I were just seeing normal orcs, but without armor and with feathers and trinkets instead.
I think the """""problem""""" for GW was that Kruleboyz represented the cunning side of orcs, while the Ironjawz represented the brutal side (the classic "brutal but cunning" or "cunning but brutal"). Savage Orcs were only another variation on brutality. GW tried in the last BT to add the "savage" aspect to the Orcs (there's a paragraph that talks about "Brutal, cunning and savage"), but it sounded very forced.
stonehorse wrote: Honestly, I am more surprised that it has taken GW this long. They want to silo their games, so there is little to no cross compatibility. Beastmen were always in a very precarious position within AOS, don't think they ever got a new AOS styled model, just a new Beastlord character... which had the design aesthetics of WFB.
A lot of the model range for AoS, have been 1 foot in AoS, and the rest of their body in WFB. Now with TOW, it allows GW to make a cleaner cut between the games. I imagine we'll see lore of this in the future, Dwarfs and Chaos Mortals will be next I imagine.
As for Stormcast, well... they are Marines of that setting, so their range is heavily bloated and in need of a trim. What is going to be interesting is when the Stormcast get their equivalent Primaris event/redesign.
That's... what's going on. It started last edition with the 'slimmer' armor sets. This edition is explicitly about reforging (2.0) and why its 'bad'
Chaos mortals are also going on, that's what darkoath is about and why the warcry stuff is getting flushed.
I definitely agree about the Beasts and the AoS/TOW divide. I'm just surprised that with the Cities of Sigmar revamp that the remaining (non-Morathi) elfs and dwarfs didn't get tipped into the bin as well.
Maybe that book is towards the back of the release order, given how recent it is. New CoS books usually seem to come with their own culling anyway.
"Two factions, Beasts of Chaos and Bonesplitterz, as well as a number of older Stormcast Eternals from the Sacrosanct and Warrior chambers, will be receiving free-to-download digital battletomes."
I Collect Exclusively Sacrosanct, Orcs with Bonesplitterz and goblins... meaning Only my goblins army will continue the others bye bye... Sure! It's not a minor thing here its full armies and dozens of models. GW your drunk.
Further this BS!
They Killed the Old world made us switch to new bases new AOS armies etc... now they kill the sacrosanct new AOS army and discontinue others... and bring back Old world. In short inconsistent unsteady and constant rules changes and game switches drives me away from any rules or games from GW. Nice models GW but the rest is total discardable garbage.
I'd be patient concerning the Sacrosanct. Seems to me like they're going to be second in line for Thunderstike upgrades.
Nearly everything on the list is expected. Beasts and Bonesplitterz have been rumoured to go for a while now, The S2D Warbands make sense since they don't really need a bunch of different marauders anymore with the upcoming refresh and the Skaven should mostly be getting replaced. Whats surprising is the Stormcast.
Obviously Prosecutors, Paladins are getting refreshed/replaced, Judicators are already soft-replaced by Vigilors and I wouldn't be surprised if we see a new Lord-Celestant. All the smaller characters are fine as SC had too many of those anyway but the whole Sancrosanct chamber going away wasn't what I expected.
Since they even called them out as going back to Azyr permanently I don't think they will get replacements and even if the basic guys like Sequitors and Evocators are getting replaced in the future with Thunderstrike armour, the bigger ones like the Ballista, Dracoline riders and Tauralon will for sure not come back. And if those don't come back there also isn't really a reason to bring the rank and file back.
Its probably because the Ruination chamber will be close in theme to the Sancrosanct chamber but still those models are only 6 years old and I'm not that happy about it with my whole Sancrosanct army.
At least they will be legal for another year and if you believe them they will even keep up rules and balance updates for them throughout the edition but for sure only this edition so in 3 years everything will be gone for sure
stormcast getting cuts makes a lot of sense. generic characters, as other people said, are probably getting updates, some of the other stuff will be getting updates. wouldn't be surprised if some of those characters get new models with shiney new armor as well
skaven is to be expected. a lot of stuff is obviously getting replaced (clanrats, weapons teams, all the characters), but i'm sure that the state of the army in eight months is going to be better than it is now
not shocked about bonesplitterz. i've felt for a while that GW would want to distance themselves from the army. there are a lot of factions reliant on cultural stereotypes in warhammer, across all of their games, but bonesplitterz are the most racist about it. the "brutish violent savage" aesthetic on its own won't cause controversy, but the "tribal" aesthetic that they have reads a lot worse now than it did 20-30 years ago. maybe these models make their way to TOW at some point, but i think it's more likely that they just fade away
the slaves to darkness stuff is the most disappointing. i'm not expecting them to stop selling those models unless they cut warcry as a game, and it doesn't seem like other factions are losing their warcry options, either, so it makes me wonder what's going to be happening with these. maybe they end up in their own army? maybe GW wants them to be their own thing? the Horns ending up with CD makes sense for that one, at least
Beasts of Chaos is a shame, but people have been talking about this as a possibility for a while now, so i'm not too surprised to see it happen. it's unfortunate, but i'm curious how GW is going to handle them in TOW now
finally, and most importantly, i hope GW makes a new Valkia model at some point, because she is straight up one of my favorite characters on the fantasy side of warhammer
Oh And goblins also had the spider boss and shaman added in to the legends..
So 100% of my sacrosanct is gone... 50% of Orcs and maybe 5% of goblins. All my armies got hit and one at full strength. The question is why even bother doing ANY new or old Army for GW games?
the slaves to darkness stuff is the most disappointing. i'm not expecting them to stop selling those models unless they cut warcry as a game, and it doesn't seem like other factions are losing their warcry options, either, so it makes me wonder what's going to be happening with these. maybe they end up in their own army? maybe GW wants them to be their own thing? the Horns ending up with CD makes sense for that one, at least
For me it makes sense because balance wise all those Warbands were basically all doing the same thing. They had different flavours but they were all in the same spot as the maruders in the army. It was basically bloat in terms of the cheap chaff mortal follower units. Thematic and amazing to look at and I hope they kepe selling them for Warcry itself; however I can understand why GW might move them to legends.
It's a shame they couldn't just create the models on a set single same base size with same number of models in each set so that they could just have gone "well ok we are removing their rules but you can use the models for your armies as counts as maruders because they are the same size". But Warcry wasn't started with that plan.
finally, and most importantly, i hope GW makes a new Valkia model at some point, because she is straight up one of my favorite characters on the fantasy side of warhammer
Belthanos wrote: Stings. Especially bonensplitters. For added fun can't play all savage orc army in tow either.
Time to play 20-30 boarboy units? Only way to legally use all in tow.
Maybe an Army of Renown will come out for them in a year or two when GW have got through the TOW release backlog and feel like re-releasing them.
That hope main reason i don't sell excess. That and painted models don't go for that much.
And since tow ground seems more relax(the legends certainly seems to be considered fair play unlike aos/40k where default seems to be no-go) that maybe opponents ok with all savage orc army in tow house rule.
It's not like all frenzied cavalry army should be brokenly good.,.
The churn and burn on the Stormcast range is truly incredible.
I'm sad about losing BoC from AOS, but on the positive side I finally have a definitive answer to the question "shall I assemble my Beastmen on round or square bases?"
nels1031 wrote: There are a few shocks in the list of mini’s, but most of it makes sense. IMO, they could’ve went harder into the Stormcast and StD.
Sad to see the BoC go, their recent battletome was pretty wild. I guess it was a last hurrah to bring up sales and it didn’t produce. Fare thee well in TOW!
Bonesplittas was a long time coming.
At this point battletome sales wouldn't have mattered for this decision
We begin with Sigmar’s finest, the Stormcast Eternals, who have one of the largest miniature ranges in Warhammer history. With so many warscrolls – often for troops who have similar fighting styles – certain units are returning to the distant halls of Azyr. These include the entire Sacrosanct Chamber, who have decided to work on the cure for the curse of Reforging from their workshops in the Realm of Heavens.
The Sacrosanct coming out of Azyr with Soul Wars was to find a cure for the curse of Reforging. It wasn't going well.
I don't get why people are pulling their old world plans simply because a range doesn't exist concurrently in both? It's been glaringly obvious for a long time they don't want shared kits.
If you wanted beasts for old world then this might actually be a good thing, bigger boxes, cheaper per head and any contemporary kits stay that way.
Likewise I suspect a lot of the sigmarines will get resculpts and/or easy proxies.
To be fair, the stormcast range got way too big with overlapping models far too fast - absolutely a bunch will be getting new kits and still be available and there's nothing stopping anyone from using them as a counts as for a close enough model.
Moving factions from AoS to Old World only is disappointing, but better than simply retiring the models period.
Skaven obviously are getting most of the models in that list back with new sculpts, plus a lot of those were already replaced with better ones historically in the Isle of Blood (Rat Ogres, etc).
Plus side about this update was #1: there will be rules through next year for Tournament play. #2: This is a huge heads up to avoid buying things that will be retired. At least they're telegraphing the updates now, rather than as a last minute surprise.
Why not just keep them in both and have them act as the 'daemons' of this edition- the cross game faction. (like daemons did back in WFB/40k of old)
Let them flog some round to square movement trays (money), flog some extra battle tomes (money), flog some extra game specific character kits (money) and have people able to dive into both games for what they will feel is more of a bargain than buying multiple different armies.
Instead we get this mess and a GW that don't seem to know what they really want to do with any of their games.
Having collected a huge beastman army but never gotten around to painting it (from classic blisters to AoS boxsets) I'm half tempted to paint it up, enter it into armies on parade on a mix of round and square bases titled 'Displaced beasts and where to put them'
Why not just keep them in both and have them act as the 'daemons' of this edition- the cross game faction. (like daemons did back in WFB/40k of old)
Let them flog some round to square movement trays (money), flog some extra battle tomes (money), flog some extra game specific character kits (money) and have people able to dive into both games for what they will feel is more of a bargain than buying multiple different armies.
Instead we get this mess and a GW that don't seem to know what they really want to do with any of their games.
you can complain a lot about this choice, but "GW doesn't know what they want to do" is just straight up untrue. this is a very direction-oriented choice to be making, and one with a specific logic behind it: they want their games to be separate. they know what they're doing and are going about it in a direct way. we can debate over whether it's good or not, but saying that GW doesn't know what they want to do is just wrong. they know what they want to do, and they're making clear what they want to do: keep games separate
Why not just keep them in both and have them act as the 'daemons' of this edition- the cross game faction. (like daemons did back in WFB/40k of old)
Let them flog some round to square movement trays (money), flog some extra battle tomes (money), flog some extra game specific character kits (money) and have people able to dive into both games for what they will feel is more of a bargain than buying multiple different armies.
Instead we get this mess and a GW that don't seem to know what they really want to do with any of their games.
Having collected a huge beastman army but never gotten around to painting it (from classic blisters to AoS boxsets) I'm half tempted to paint it up, enter it into armies on parade on a mix of round and square bases titled 'Displaced beasts and where to put them'
I feel like Beastmen have been teetering on the edge of being purged from every system for a long time now. It seems like this is their last chance before the axe finally falls on them.
Why not just keep them in both and have them act as the 'daemons' of this edition- the cross game faction. (like daemons did back in WFB/40k of old)
Let them flog some round to square movement trays (money), flog some extra battle tomes (money), flog some extra game specific character kits (money) and have people able to dive into both games for what they will feel is more of a bargain than buying multiple different armies.
Instead we get this mess and a GW that don't seem to know what they really want to do with any of their games.
Having collected a huge beastman army but never gotten around to painting it (from classic blisters to AoS boxsets) I'm half tempted to paint it up, enter it into armies on parade on a mix of round and square bases titled 'Displaced beasts and where to put them'
They make most of their sales by the big boxes and starter sets. By not allowing you to use the same army in both games, they have a chance to sell you another big box. All the extras you mention make peanuts in comparison, because the people who buy it already have a full army. It's better in their minds to have a chance of selling something that will make someone collect a full new army.
I feel like Beastmen have been teetering on the edge of being purged from every system for a long time now. It seems like this is their last chance before the axe finally falls on them.
I feel like as much as this sucks, they have not been shy with beasts in the chaos factions. Tzaangor inclusion might be a running joke for the Tzeentch boxsets among the fans, but I don't think it's something I ever expected to see! Same with Slaangors in Hedonites.
We just need Khornegors and Pestigors for the full quad, and a "Felgor Ravagers" equivalent for Slaves to Darkness.
As someone said previously, its pretty wild that the Vanguard Chamber isn't included in this purge. They're older and objectively worse models than the Sacrosanct minis.
Khagra's Ravagers getting the axe is pretty random as well, but I guess that's always been the case with WH:U warbands. Its a solid choice to buy for alt character models for both an Exalted Hero of Chaos in Khagra and a Chaos Sorcerer with the added bonus of 2 Warrior sculpts.
nels1031 wrote: As someone said previously, its pretty wild that the Vanguard Chamber isn't included in this purge. They're older and objectively worse models than the Sacrosanct minis.
Probably sell more. Or some redone sacrosanct models will be part of the new release.
nels1031 wrote: As someone said previously, its pretty wild that the Vanguard Chamber isn't included in this purge. They're older and objectively worse models than the Sacrosanct minis.
Maybe they thought that wizards are not what they want from Sigmarines both thematically and mechanically?
I am floored with how large a swathe they took out from AoS. If I had built a Beasts or Bonesplittaz army, I'd be raging. Glad to see those figures aren't vanishing, but it's still a shock to have so many drop at once, especially the Stormcast and Warcry warbands. I know they aren't new at this point, but they're significantly more recent than the Skaven units that are being replaced.
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Overread wrote: What I don't get is GW has the Dark Elf army sitting right there in cities of Sigmar doing NOTHING with them. The only thing they did was a token "build dark elf army expansion" once with the Daughters of Khaine. Otherwise that whole army has sat in utter limbo. Why take BoC out but leave the Dark Elf force in.
Agreed. This would have made way more sense. Maybe their concern was that it would require DoK units to come too and they don't want to drop them from AoS? It seems like the separation of games is way more important to them than almost anything else.
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leopard wrote: nicer to see most of the sigmarines they pushed through the mortal realms series and earlier starter sets getting squatted
really leaves a feeling of "why bother?" to the idea of getting anything when its going to get wiped, likely to be replaced with something essentially the same but with a totally different name
Agreed. It makes me very nervous to invest in games larger than Warcry or Kill Team. Losing one unit would suck. Losing a whole army would be way worse.
I mean let's be honest, the Sacrosanct can be used as proxies for most things in the list anyway. Sequitors are just robed liberators with a fancier looking hammer. It's how i'll be using mine.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I mean let's be honest, the Sacrosanct can be used as proxies for most things in the list anyway. Sequitors are just robed liberators with a fancier looking hammer. It's how i'll be using mine.
And Liberators are Liberators too. We know there's new Prosecutors too.
I expect sacrosanct will eventually come back with reworked models, but probably with some significant unit design differences to differentiate them further so they aren't just "the same units you had befire, but with robes".
The Phazer wrote: Yeah, but you have to expect that DE will be removed from AOS and move back to TOW as soon as they release the second half of the COS range this edition. It's maybe just a year further away.
Not at all. Half the DE model range is tied up in Daughters of Khaine, and they aren't going anywhere. The likely future for the CoSDE range is that they get split off to form the Umbraneth or whatever, likely with some fairly direct resculpts of several of the units (Executioners and Black Guard specifically seem likely to get the Blood Knight/Kroxigor treatment).
Hopefully the Skaven kits all do get replaced for the sake of TOW players. Bonesplittaz are also presumably heading there even if it doesn't explicitly say so.
Rumor is that skaven are getting resculpted stormvermin and clanrats in AoS. The idea that they will be backportef into TOW seems to be supremely wishful thinking, especially given they just purged an entire faction from AoS to prevent crossover with TOW. The message on all this should be loud and clear that legacy factions will stay legacy.
Why not just keep them in both and have them act as the 'daemons' of this edition- the cross game faction. (like daemons did back in WFB/40k of old)
It's not baffling at all. It's been widely expected and rather extensively rumored.
And even daemons aren't really cross-game anymore. There are AoS only daemons now and playing daemons in AoS requires you to buy a number of non-daemon models if you really want to be successful. It's been pretty clear for several years now that cross-compatibility is not something gw wants to support (for numerous reasons) and they've been taking steps to minimize and eliminate it.
nels1031 wrote: As someone said previously, its pretty wild that the Vanguard Chamber isn't included in this purge. They're older and objectively worse models than the Sacrosanct minis.
Maybe they thought that wizards are not what they want from Sigmarines both thematically and mechanically?
that the "reset" for AoS is necessary not because of the rules changes but because the background change as well and you cannot have old book with different background around was a point discussed
that 2nd Edi units are gone, with 1st Edi units being made new would fit into that, as what was shown fits more with the very first version
Sigmar Lied, buying into AoS because with this game your armies are save for the future and won't be cut is not true at all
Dudeface wrote: I don't get why people are pulling their old world plans simply because a range doesn't exist concurrently in both? It's been glaringly obvious for a long time they don't want shared kits.
If you wanted beasts for old world then this might actually be a good thing, bigger boxes, cheaper per head and any contemporary kits stay that way.
Agreed.
I am building a BoC army for ToW and I'mm happy with the news.
I feel for the small number of Beasts players (although, they are certainly greater in number than Fyreslayer players; nobody likes Fyreslayers), but I think the range is much better suited for the Old World. Get those discounted BoC vanguard boxes while they're still available.
Scottywan82 wrote: Agreed. It makes me very nervous to invest in games larger than Warcry or Kill Team. Losing one unit would suck. Losing a whole army would be way worse.
I have 30+ doe styled Ungors in various stages of converting, six custom minotaurs and a box full of scrounged up kits for the eventual Gors, all for what was supposed to be a Slaaneshi themed BoC army.
I suppose I should be glad I didn't actually put all that much effort into it yet.
I can't say I'm shocked at all about Bonesplitterz and Beastmen, but it's no less a gakky maneuver.
Same with getting rid of all the Sacrosanct stormcast, which were actually cool; the ugly 1st edition ones I don't care about.
As always though the problem is ignorant people who will look at Legends and say "this isn't allowed at all" when it's just not allowed in tournaments.
I mean the Stormcast news isn't necessarily something out of left field. Their range is rather bloated but it also has the effect of nuking my whole army :(
That being said I imagine they will be back just with newer sculpts...although now I have no reason to really start painting my 2nd edition box. As for the the Beastmen, they are at least in a good place in TOW and I imagine some kind of Beastmen will come back to AoS but I imagine they will be radically different than what they are now.
Now the Boneplitterz is the odd one as, while they are in the Ravening Hordes book, they aren't a separate entry. It kind of feels like a last minute change since they weren't properly included in the TOW release.
The Skaven stuff and Warcry Warbands was all going to happen at one point. Since Skaven are getting an AoS refresh and those Warbands weren't going to be around forever. They honestly just felt like a way to pad out the Slaves to Darkness book.
Scottywan82 wrote: Agreed. It makes me very nervous to invest in games larger than Warcry or Kill Team. Losing one unit would suck. Losing a whole army would be way worse.
I have 30+ doe styled Ungors in various stages of converting, six custom minotaurs and a box full of scrounged up kits for the eventual Gors, all for what was supposed to be a Slaaneshi themed BoC army.
I suppose I should be glad I didn't actually put all that much effort into it yet.
Play them as Darkoath marauders and the minotaurs as ogroid Theridions. Sure, it sucks to loose your faction, but this is really close. Closer than my attempts to play GSC after 2nd edition 40k and the 3rd edition Citadel Journal list...
So all these almost brand new (in terms of plastic kit sculpts) sigmarines are being retired not just from production but also from the rules? I could see retiring models (especially if a new sculpt is obviously coming) but not in just a couple years. Sigmarines in general aren't even a decade old as a concept, right? Can people use them as standins officially for other flavor of the month faux-latin variants?
That's a really, REALLY gakky thing to do to people in the year of our Lord 2024.
gakky enough that I probably won't bother with Beastmen in TOW, despite having big plans for them.
The Stormcast mass-purge is disturbing mainly because they're the poster children for the entire game/range but at least they have years worth of minimally distinct for the purposes of trademarking variants to pick up the slack. I'd guess that the beastman range is probably much harder hit in terms of proportion. I just don't get why they'd cull so many customers/players voluntarily from their ranks when just publishing some generic rules with simple upgrades for variants would do. You could literally token (life)support them forever with a pdf of a dozen pages every edition.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I feel like Beastmen have been teetering on the edge of being purged from every system for a long time now. It seems like this is their last chance before the axe finally falls on them.
Indeed. I remember there were rumors supposedly from hastings on The Herdstone forum that Wood Elves and BoC wouldn't make the transition to AoS.
Well explicitly, we already know that there will be new Prosecutors, Liberators, and more - many of these will be covered by resculpts.
Paladins, Judicators, and Castigators all are similar to models from the 3rd edition line and can be replaced by them. All the random heroes are just chonkers - expect resculpts for many.
The big surprise one for me was Aventis Firestrike, who may just get a less weird model, similar to how I fully expect to see a new Astreia, as she was recently killed in the fluff so is thematically ready for a new model as well - they might even just make her be that bird riding model in the new starter box shown in the trailer.
"Your existing battletome is now useless, and also your army collection is being moved to legends". Hmmm. It feels like this is going to be Age of Sigmar: "Sheriff-of-Nottingham" Edition...
Quite horrified as that Stormcast list is almost my whole army collection. Thankfully its mostly made up of the part-work magazine purchases, so it was an affordable collection, and only intended for smaller casual games and solo-coop adventures.
If I were a Beasts of Chaos player I'd be bloody upset if The Old World wasn't my cup of tea. That said, the Beastmen rules are already available for The Old World(mostly?) and the same book contains rules for Orcs, Chaos warriors and Tomb Kings, and the rule books for The Old World might last longer than just a three-year-run for AOS. Movement trays also seem to be easily DIY'd...
Maybe it's a good sign they'll send the baby beard back to abyss for grand new one. The old lore about being naked for the god surely doesn't apply for the female Fyreslayer, so just stop pretending and give them pants.
warboss wrote: So all these almost brand new (in terms of plastic kit sculpts) sigmarines are being retired not just from production but also from the rules? I could see retiring models (especially if a new sculpt is obviously coming) but not in just a couple years. Sigmarines in general aren't even a decade old as a concept, right? Can people use them as standins officially for other flavor of the month faux-latin variants?
That's a really, REALLY gakky thing to do to people in the year of our Lord 2024.
gakky enough that I probably won't bother with Beastmen in TOW, despite having big plans for them.
The Stormcast mass-purge is disturbing mainly because they're the poster children for the entire game/range but at least they have years worth of minimally distinct for the purposes of trademarking variants to pick up the slack. I'd guess that the beastman range is probably much harder hit in terms of proportion. I just don't get why they'd cull so many customers/players voluntarily from their ranks when just publishing some generic rules with simple upgrades for variants would do. You could literally token (life)support them forever with a pdf of a dozen pages every edition.
No, all the first ed models there are getting resculpts and it's pretty guaranteed that every hero there is going to get a thundrestrike upgrade. I'd say less than half that what's actually pictured will be "gone" without a replacement.
warboss wrote: So all these almost brand new (in terms of plastic kit sculpts) sigmarines are being retired not just from production but also from the rules? I could see retiring models (especially if a new sculpt is obviously coming) but not in just a couple years. Sigmarines in general aren't even a decade old as a concept, right? Can people use them as standins officially for other flavor of the month faux-latin variants?
That's a really, REALLY gakky thing to do to people in the year of our Lord 2024.
gakky enough that I probably won't bother with Beastmen in TOW, despite having big plans for them.
The Stormcast mass-purge is disturbing mainly because they're the poster children for the entire game/range but at least they have years worth of minimally distinct for the purposes of trademarking variants to pick up the slack. I'd guess that the beastman range is probably much harder hit in terms of proportion. I just don't get why they'd cull so many customers/players voluntarily from their ranks when just publishing some generic rules with simple upgrades for variants would do. You could literally token (life)support them forever with a pdf of a dozen pages every edition.
No, all the first ed models there are getting resculpts and it's pretty guaranteed that every hero there is going to get a thundrestrike upgrade. I'd say less than half that what's actually pictured will be "gone" without a replacement.
Do you have an actual source for this or just trying to justify the unjustifiable?
I mean ending the production of older models to make way for newer sculpts is one thing. But moving their rules to Legends is a bit more suspect. Unless they plan on doing something drastically different with them and unit composition that the old models simply cannot do.
Everything that's seen in the launch trailer so far are getting re-sculpts, that's a guarantee. Things like Celestant still have mounted alternatives, so that's a guarantee. And things like the Azyros, Veritant and Vexilor are core parts of the army. So they're not just disappearing without a replacement.
Two collections of mine being squatted is enough for one day, thanks. I am sincerely finally getting off of the GW hamster-wheel. It remains a company with so little regard for its fans that I just can't give them any more.
This is too wide a hobby with too many companies that better respect my patronage and time, to play any more half-baked GW.
I genuinely thought they were over weird moves like this.
Hopefully this hobby extinction level event for so many players will birth a new third party game like the initial death of WHFB galvanized the KOW 2nd edition. I know that kept people playing with their figs for years locally so much so that the store had to special order conversion bases for the units to keep up. Obviously the popularity didn't last forever but a few years is better no use after 2025.
Well the weird thing is, why even announce the removal of those stormcast and skaven models if they're just getting resculpted? They resculpted termagants and hormagaunts for tyranids with 10th edition, yet they didn't put out an article announcing that they were being retired or anything. They just announced the resculpts and moved on, same as what they've done for basically any other resculpt before now.
I can understand beastmen and bonesplitterz since they're actually being cut and relaunched into a different game (or at least beastmen are), but we're expecting a portion of those stormcast and skaven minis to be resculpts, so why even mention or include them at all? Just tell us the things actually being removed, everything else will presumably be available in 6 months time with new sculpts.
chaos0xomega wrote: I
Rumor is that skaven are getting resculpted stormvermin and clanrats in AoS. The idea that they will be backportef into TOW seems to be supremely wishful thinking, especially given they just purged an entire faction from AoS to prevent crossover with TOW. The message on all this should be loud and clear that legacy factions will stay legacy.
Except vampires coming back to tow as rumour says doesn't support your theory.
The release of Kragnos as the heavyweight of Destruction somewhat foreshadowed the doom of the BoC to me. He's essentially something you'd find in a BoC army but instead of Chaos he is Destruction.In AoS it seems the BoC would have been better slotted in Destruction, right out of Ghur. Not the best solution but maybe removing them allows newer versions to be something different.
Shakalooloo wrote: Mistweaver Saih is disappearing... Malerion incoming?
I legit didn't think that model was still available. What faction was it under on the webstore?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: Hopefully this hobby extinction level event for so many players will birth a new third party game like the initial death of WHFB birthed KOW.
The way I read it is Vanguard eventually get the thunderstrike update and Sacrosant dont come back.
Its hard for me to mourn the Sacrosanct going away, but darn, thats a rough way to treat the players that focus on them.
Having introduced them in a starter box should mean there is lots of people having started out with them for their SC army.
Fayric wrote: The way I read it is Vanguard eventually get the thunderstrike update and Sacrosant dont come back.
Its hard for me to mourn the Sacrosanct going away, but darn, thats a rough way to treat the players that focus on them.
Having introduced them in a starter box should mean there is lots of people having started out with them for their SC army.
It’s that last bit.
Whilst there’s some “so what’s coming?” yet to be known? Ditching a range of models a healthy percentage of your current player base will have is really off. Really really off.
In my group we have 3 SCE players, 2 Skaven and 3 BOC players. As per today's discussion we're sticking with this edition and GW can stick 4th where the sun doesn't shine.
They pulled this nonsense when they killed off WHFB and now this. None of us will be investing in TOW or 4th. We enjoy this version and not buying into new nonsense will mean we continue to enjoy using our miniatures that have have cost a lot of £ and taken a lot of time to paint.
Also means we combined save a fortune by not buying new edition and battletomes. So thanks GW you've probably saved us a few thousand pounds combined.
No, all the first ed models there are getting resculpts and it's pretty guaranteed that every hero there is going to get a thundrestrike upgrade. I'd say less than half that what's actually pictured will be "gone" without a replacement.
Not all* Vanguard and Extremis go unchanged, as well as Celestant-Prime.
BoC leaving AoS (that rumour was real then), hopefully Savage orcs going to TOW (savage boarboys already sold out online, last chance to buy boys on foot, I can't afford atm), lots of Sigmarines due to reforging armour (which would be good if they didn't just say they're gone forever, in fact, we already saw a Nü-Prosecutor on the cinematic), Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges), people calling orcs "orks", abuse on the misuse of apostrophes and not capitalizing the "O" in "TOW".
Today I just had my apointment with my psychologist and I wish all of this happened BEFORE I went, and GW just won't pay for it.
At least they are finally confirming what are they getting rid off from Skaven (in my honest Imho, Clanrats are still good looking, and I had fun with still current Stormvermins, I made a barbarian and a rogue one) so lets have some ̶n̶a̶ï̶v̶i̶t̶y̶ positivity still intact.
No, all the first ed models there are getting resculpts and it's pretty guaranteed that every hero there is going to get a thundrestrike upgrade. I'd say less than half that what's actually pictured will be "gone" without a replacement.
Not all* Vanguard and Extremis go unchanged, as well as Celestant-Prime.
I'm surprised about the Prime actually. He seems a prime candidate for a centrepiece redo.
Savage orcs can be used orc models in WTOW if given the appropriate weapon/shield. I have a heap of savage orcs I bought second hand for AOS and got about 1/5 of the way through painting them and can now repaint those and rebase others to flesh out my orc component. For the first time in 30 years I will have some boar boyz.
Who knows, in the future there may be a tome for savage orcs and spider goblins...
But the question is, what would've been a better time to reveal the purge than this?
SCE are just getting put in the fridge until they can sell new models for the same unit when they are relevant for the edition, Skaven are on a similar case, we don't know yet if Cultists are just gone from AoS range or the whole range
How will this affect GW? we will forget about it tomorrow? when the Sacrosanct chamber finally finds a cure for the curse?
40K players are also wondering what does this means for them, for their minis getting wiped in a snap: those Aggressors you have? nah-uh, here some Aggressor in Gravis² are the way to go now.
CMLR wrote: Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges),
On the webstore, while the Stormcast and Skaven stuff is marked 'Last Chance to Buy', the Chaos boys are not - potentially this means the models will remain for Warcry use, but just be moved out of the AoS battletome. Alternatively, GW didn't update the webstore correctly.
CMLR wrote: Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges),
On the webstore, while the Stormcast and Skaven stuff is marked 'Last Chance to Buy', the Chaos boys are not - potentially this means the models will remain for Warcry use, but just be moved out of the AoS battletome. Alternatively, GW didn't update the webstore correctly.
That's how i read it. They're being retired from the STD tome, not Warcry itself.
I'm not surpsied - or sad - to see the Warcry units disappear from the STD tome. They added a lot of very samey bloat and the mix of base sizes and weapon profiles made them a bit cumbersome to use. I hope they stick around for Warcry though because the models are great and in their home game they have more room to differentiate themselves from one another.
I *am* a bit surprised they are removing Khagra though, especially since I don't see any of the early Stormcast teams being removed. My fingers are crossed that it means we are going to see resculpts of Khagra and her sister as character models for STD, but I doubt I'm that lucky.
Stormcast eternal bloat is GWs own fault.
I think they worked around the issue in 10th ed primaris marines by making weapon variants just count as the same stat profile.
They could keep the old models viable for use but redo the model kits for new players going forward.
They have done it many, many times before.
Such as being able to use cadian models from 1996 and 2024.
lord_blackfang wrote: Imagine retiring the completely up to date Clanrats and Stormvermin and leaving in the gak Plague Monks
I feel like the path to this decision is fairly clear. They want to concentrate Skaven down to the most popular subfaction(s), which they have determined is Skryre. Maybe with a side of Moulder, but if the new beasts are all implanted and cyberneticized out their asses they'll arguably be more Skyrye-coded than Moulder. Either way, there aren't really any "Skryre troops" and a starter set needs plenty of troopy models, so instead of updating the Plague Monks they decided to retire and redo the perfectly-serviceable Clanrats and Stormvermin.
I just hope the new Clanrats and Stormvermin aren't festooned with implants etc. and are still solidly giving "generic".
lord_blackfang wrote: Imagine retiring the completely up to date Clanrats and Stormvermin and leaving in the gak Plague Monks
I feel like the path to this decision is fairly clear. They want to concentrate Skaven down to the most popular subfaction(s), which they have determined is Skryre. Maybe with a side of Moulder, but if the new beasts are all implanted and cyberneticized out their asses they'll arguably be more Skyrye-coded than Moulder. Either way, there aren't really any "Skryre troops" and a starter set needs plenty of troopy models, so instead of updating the Plague Monks they decided to retire and redo the perfectly-serviceable Clanrats and Stormvermin.
I just hope the new Clanrats and Stormvermin aren't festooned with implants etc. and are still solidly giving "generic".
I expect new Clanrats and Stormvermin to largely just be reposes, now that there's no longer a reason to limit themselves to models that (should) rank up.
I wouldn't complain if a few Stormvermin have some crude Skryre prosthetics to denote an element of superiority in their ranks, but there's no way GW will make Clanrats anything but generic. Skryre have their troops, and if GW want to push them as the dominant Clan then they'll just make plastic Acolytes
Honestly this also helps to explain why GW told Creative Assembly that Tzaangors in Warhammer 3 were, under no circumstances, are to get beaks despite the fans asking for it.
GW is really dead set on keeping their properties separate.
Also most of those 4chan leaks keeps coming up true....
I expect new Clanrats and Stormvermin to largely just be reposes, now that there's no longer a reason to limit themselves to models that (should) rank up.
This felt so much like an out-of-season April Fool's joke (they just didn't DARE to told us this on Monday, did't they?) that they might as well just repackage Island of Blood Clanrats.
Scratch that, they're just gonna reuse Island of Blood + 3 new kits at much.
chaos0xomega wrote: I
Rumor is that skaven are getting resculpted stormvermin and clanrats in AoS. The idea that they will be backportef into TOW seems to be supremely wishful thinking, especially given they just purged an entire faction from AoS to prevent crossover with TOW. The message on all this should be loud and clear that legacy factions will stay legacy.
Except vampires coming back to tow as rumour says doesn't support your theory.
Except the actual rumor is that it's a Vampire army of mousillon, and not "vampire counts" as we knew them before, so that has zero impact on my theory whatsoever.
What I don't get is GW has the Dark Elf army sitting right there in cities of Sigmar doing NOTHING with them. The only thing they did was a token "build dark elf army expansion" once with the Daughters of Khaine. Otherwise that whole army has sat in utter limbo. Why take BoC out but leave the Dark Elf force in.
Could be that they're hoping it will keep old Dark Elf fans satisfied while GW continues to ignore Malerion?
Eumerin wrote: Could be that they're hoping it will keep old Dark Elf fans satisfied while GW continues to ignore Malerion?
Imagine Umbraneth being the first new faction of 4th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh lord, oh man, YouTubers already uploading themselves throwing their minis to trash bins, it's End Times all over again...
Just wait until the miniatures get their redux and become playable again (if appliable, otherwise just sell to TOW players or be mad because Cultists getting axed DO suck).
Very poor way to treat your customers. I hope this tilts some people enough that they are open to looking outside the GW cage.
There are so many great games and model ranges out there that cost less, give more, and don't make you feel like you are constantly being bent over a barrel as a fan.
Gallahad wrote: Very poor way to treat your customers. I hope this tilts some people enough that they are open to looking outside the GW cage.
There are so many great games and model ranges out there that cost less, give more, and don't make you feel like you are constantly being bent over a barrel as a fan.
I give them until they show the first new Clanrat, which could be tomorrow for damage control.
Gallahad wrote: Very poor way to treat your customers. I hope this tilts some people enough that they are open to looking outside the GW cage.
There are so many great games and model ranges out there that cost less, give more, and don't make you feel like you are constantly being bent over a barrel as a fan.
Imagine being a company that has to wait for another company to have issues to get customers. Just make a better product? Also since when are we "fans" we're consumers and GW is a business. If their business model is deleting ranges that aren't selling well then so be it.
That's if they do new Clanrats and Stormvermin and haven't decided to just go at a weird tangent and invent some new unit just to try and make sales. They're getting nothing from me, I'll stick to playing this edition with my current Skaven. Out club is well into a Path to Glory campaign and we're not rolling over for GW like happened to so many players and collections with killing off WHFB.
I've been a GW supporter since Citadel miniatures were an independent company but enough is enough. Killed off the original Squats, killed off large parts of Fantasy collection, pretty Much forced a rebasing of all the remaining troops, made a mess of 40k with 10th edition and now this. Nope they can keep 4th and we'll stick to playing current rules, which incidentally we've changed quite a bit using our own group agreed amendments.
We will see what is going to be there for Skaven on release.
Just having updated Clan Rats without a major re-design would make this announcement more strange that it already is
what reason is there to tell people things get axed just to replace them with upscaled models
(except GW hopes that people are throwing away or selling off their existing army just to realise that everything stays the same and they need to buy the same models new)
BoC players needing to rebase their army at least once every 6 years is like a meme now
Jammer87 wrote: Imagine being a company that has to wait for another company to have issues to get customers. Just make a better product?
you mean like the MMORPG market did not need to wait for WoW to screw up because just making a better game was enough to break the market position
Gallahad wrote: Very poor way to treat your customers. I hope this tilts some people enough that they are open to looking outside the GW cage.
There are so many great games and model ranges out there that cost less, give more, and don't make you feel like you are constantly being bent over a barrel as a fan.
Imagine being a company that has to wait for another company to have issues to get customers. Just make a better product? Also since when are we "fans" we're consumers and GW is a business. If their business model is deleting ranges that aren't selling well then so be it.
Now there's one. Also underlined the literad 4head.
kodos wrote: We will see what is going to be there for Skaven on release.
Just having updated Clan Rats without a major re-design would make this announcement more strange that it already is
what reason is there to tell people things get axed just to replace them with upscaled models
(except GW hopes that people are throwing away or selling off their existing army just to realise that everything stays the same and they need to buy the same models new)
Well liberators are also on that list and we already saw the updated models. And while they do look a bit different they are still called Liberators so the unit entry shouldn't be removed
We will see
Question will be if this is a single unit entry with different weapon options, as Spears don't really have an advantage any more with CC range going away, that are called differently in background only
Or if there will be several different units each with their own rules
I'm surprised about the Prime actually. He seems a prime candidate for a centrepiece redo.
Yeah, he is the best/prime example of fatcast. I guess they simply do not have enough redone thunderstrike models yet or do not want to make bigger cull now to not upset SCE collectors more. In time he will be redone for sure.
I really don't like this - feels like chucking loads of stuff on the bonfire to free up production capacity for the preorder churn cycle at the expense of long-term sustainability. I've already stopped buying GW books because they have such a pitiful shelf life, easy to see their models going the same way too particularly when the designs are so idiosyncratic. You're not easily using your sacrosanct sce collection in another game.
Billicus wrote: I really don't like this - feels like chucking loads of stuff on the bonfire to free up production capacity for the preorder churn cycle at the expense of long-term sustainability.
Look, I'm not happy about this situation for other reasons, but the Stormcast cull is very much a long-term sustainability move. The SKU bloat is a major problem for GW.
The issue here is the way GW handles the phase out for those kits, which may result in people feeling like they lost the ability to play with their collection.
Gallahad wrote: Very poor way to treat your customers. I hope this tilts some people enough that they are open to looking outside the GW cage.
There are so many great games and model ranges out there that cost less, give more, and don't make you feel like you are constantly being bent over a barrel as a fan.
Imagine being a company that has to wait for another company to have issues to get customers. Just make a better product? Also since when are we "fans" we're consumers and GW is a business. If their business model is deleting ranges that aren't selling well then so be it.
Imagine being a cultist consumer that won't try a different product, even if it is better.
Imagine being a cultist consumer that won't try a different product, even if it is better.
As much as I resonate with your point in terms of the game side of things, you'd be hard pressed to find companies out there that make better plastic miniatures.
Billicus wrote: I really don't like this - feels like chucking loads of stuff on the bonfire to free up production capacity for the preorder churn cycle at the expense of long-term sustainability.
Look, I'm not happy about this situation for other reasons, but the Stormcast cull is very much a long-term sustainability move. The SKU bloat is a major problem for GW.
The issue here is the way GW handles the phase out for those kits, which may result in people feeling like they lost the ability to play with their collection.
They're both issues, I'm saying the "sell out preorders every week" model isn't sustainable - and not only will feeding it more production capacity just kick the can down the road, the side effect of GW making their plastic models more disposable by supporting them for shorter periods will actually harm sales of the stuff they are deeming worthy of supporting.
This is obviously the business model GW was aiming for when AoS initially released: smaller factions which can be rotated out periodically with the seasons of the game.
His Master's Voice wrote: Stormcasts are likely to receive updated armour kits for most of the entries, so you'll likely be able to use your old models as substitutes.
Nope. This is two editions worth of models. Unless you believe Stormcast will receive 50+ releases this edition (and zero new stuff, too, but we know Ruination is a thing and will devour at least half of releases this edition) replacing this will take at least till 6th edition and that's with minimal new things.
Half of the army (and the more interesting half, at that) is dead and buried
Groat wrote: To be fair, the stormcast range got way too big with overlapping models far too fast - absolutely a bunch will be getting new kits and still be available and there's nothing stopping anyone from using them as a counts as for a close enough model.
Like what?
Had it been anything else, sure, you can count it as some other Stormcast with bow/spear/axe/hammer/sword, fine. But Sacrosant? They are literally magic wing of the army and nothing else in the range has similar fun/flexibility/divergent rules as them. It's like telling Grey Knight player after the army was squatted to pretend they are Ultramarines or something now and be happy you can count all these terminators as tactical squads now
But the GW idiocy goes far deeper here. They are also squatting engineers and artillery. What are we supposed to proxy them as? Thin air? Cavalry characters, gone. Frak you if you liked gryph cavalry and invested into something to lead/buff it. Dozen characters, gone (these might eventually get re-releases but I am strangely sure all these named characters won't be getting them and your models are dead anyway till GW can be arsed to make a replacement so you have rules to proxy old model as). Best looking Stormcast cavalry, all the Dracoline riders, gone. Centerpiece models, Aventis and Astreia, gone. I mean, Aventis is frakking 130$, 260$ if you bought second model to use as generic leader - that's a really big chunk of change, and even if you wanted to proxy it as something, there is nothing in Stormcast range with similar size and base, rules be damned
What is even more baffling is what is not being squatted. Why kill all the 2nd edition, still good looking models when a lot of ugly, badly proportioned models from 1st are going to stay (and seeing they are not on kill list, no refresh either)? Let's take garbage, cartoonish, ork jawed Dracoth cavalry - these are some of the worst looking Stormcast models, yet they are somehow safe, unless GW 'forgot' to put them in the picture. Cynic in me says it's their 37.5$ per model price tag as opposed to 'mere' 20$ Dracolines cost that makes them pass. Just why?
I wanted to build Dracoline wing of my army this edition, Astreia + 3/4 boxes of regular dudes as I honestly like how they look and was tired of slow melee dudes - now I either won't bother, or will buy second hand from other pissed people to make sure GW won't see any of that money. I also don't know why I bothered to grab extra starter boxes to get more artillery - silly me, I guess, not expecting brand new models I looked the look of to be gone just like that
Bravo, really good way to inspire confidence of your customers here James - and all they had to do to mitigate most of this is to say clearly what will be getting replacements soon and why they decided to ruin the best part of the army. They could also oh, not touch starter models and centerpieces (as these will upset players the most) and only announce retirement of boxes shortly after refresh models were ready - but no, that would actually require 5 minutes worth of effort to communicate with people who pay your wages!
Imagine being a cultist consumer that won't try a different product, even if it is better.
As much as I resonate with your point in terms of the game side of things, you'd be hard pressed to find companies out there that make better plastic miniatures.
for quality, not a really a problem but than it depends what you want.
Like literal miniatures for gaming, GW is not the one to use anyway. Models for painting collecting, they are good but not the best.
what they do is design, you won't find any other company doing Stormcast, same as you want find other companies doing Gundam but this is something different.
if you just want a Dragon to paint and put on the shelf, you want a Dragon to play a game with it, no problem finding better and/or cheaper alternatives in plastic to GW, if you want the Celestant Prime, of course no one else makes them
CMLR wrote: Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges),
On the webstore, while the Stormcast and Skaven stuff is marked 'Last Chance to Buy', the Chaos boys are not - potentially this means the models will remain for Warcry use, but just be moved out of the AoS battletome. Alternatively, GW didn't update the webstore correctly.
That's how i read it. They're being retired from the STD tome, not Warcry itself.
That would be my preferred outcome. There are some characterful models in those warbands and I'd rather not see them discontinued.
Hoping that the SCE continue to bomb sales-wise so that by 5th edition GW is forced to give another faction the hero treatment.
I understand the argument that GW wants an easy to paint/low model count starter army, but SCE have obviously failed to capture hearts and minds. Even the slick armor redesigns couldn't save Dominion from the massive discount bin.
Feels like Seraphon could step into the breach with big models that are forgiving to new painters. Armor clad dwarves? Honestly, I'm up for anything...
kodos wrote: for quality, not a really a problem but than it depends what you want.
Like literal miniatures for gaming, GW is not the one to use anyway. Models for painting collecting, they are good but not the best.
what they do is design, you won't find any other company doing Stormcast, same as you want find other companies doing Gundam but this is something different.
if you just want a Dragon to paint and put on the shelf, you want a Dragon to play a game with it, no problem finding better and/or cheaper alternatives in plastic to GW, if you want the Celestant Prime, of course no one else makes them
Fair enough, their designs in context of their settings are the main draw. It also depends on how recent their sculpts are. As you said, there is not a single proper dragon available from GW that I'd personally be interested in today, but on the other hand there is no better elven infantry around from other manufacturers, and those are still fairly generic designs.
In Dominions case its more GW WAAAAAY over produced to avoid another Indomitus situation. Added to that is the fact that the second half of the Dominion box, The Kruleboyz, have basically sucked the whole edition is more the reason why its still kicking around.
His Master's Voice wrote: Stormcasts are likely to receive updated armour kits for most of the entries, so you'll likely be able to use your old models as substitutes.
Nope. This is two editions worth of models. Unless you believe Stormcast will receive 50+ releases this edition (and zero new stuff, too, but we know Ruination is a thing and will devour at least half of releases this edition) replacing this will take at least till 6th edition and that's with minimal new things.
Remove the single characters and the list goes down to eight units and a warmachine. We've already seen a replacement for one of those and the edition haven't started yet, so I assume at least the Prosecutors might get a mark update, since they're the only flying infantry in the range. Judicators might get ditched in favour of Vigilors, and Paladins might not come back if Anihillators are meant to be the Termi equivalent, which would make using them as counts as really easy. That leaves the Sacrosanct, which is admittedly half the kits and includes a great cav unit, but that's a far cry from taking up all release slots in two editions.
Unless you believe Stormcast will receive 50+ releases this edition (and zero new stuff, too, but we know Ruination is a thing and will devour at least half of releases this edition) replacing this will take at least till 6th edition and that's with minimal new things.
Keep the hyperbole down, there are 23 units being "retired" we know some of these are getting resculpted already, a chunk are special characters and a fair few character models that exist largely for the sakes of it.
Had it been anything else, sure, you can count it as some other Stormcast with bow/spear/axe/hammer/sword, fine. But Sacrosant? They are literally magic wing of the army and nothing else in the range has similar fun/flexibility/divergent rules as them. It's like telling Grey Knight player after the army was squatted to pretend they are Ultramarines or something now and be happy you can count all these terminators as tactical squads now
Again, you're confusing rules with models. The rules going might suck, but then maybe the magic rules are different in 4th and they wouldn't function how you're expecting either way. Outside of that a model with a shield and hammer is a model with a shield and hammer here. Don't mistake this for a lack of sympathy, I understand that losing the special rules is a shame, but it doesn't render the models useless.
But the GW idiocy goes far deeper here. They are also squatting engineers and artillery. What are we supposed to proxy them as? Thin air?
Fair
Cavalry characters, gone. Frak you if you liked gryph cavalry and invested into something to lead/buff it.
There still is one in the Lord-Aquilor?
Dozen characters, gone (these might eventually get re-releases but I am strangely sure all these named characters won't be getting them and your models are dead anyway till GW can be arsed to make a replacement so you have rules to proxy old model as). Best looking Stormcast cavalry, all the Dracoline riders, gone.
"Character with big weapon" is an easy proxy.
Centerpiece models, Aventis and Astreia, gone. I mean, Aventis is frakking 130$, 260$ if you bought second model to use as generic leader - that's a really big chunk of change, and even if you wanted to proxy it as something, there is nothing in Stormcast range with similar size and base, rules be damned
Aventis is on the same base and rough model size as Ionus if you need a proxy.
I wanted to build Dracoline wing of my army this edition, Astreia + 3/4 boxes of regular dudes as I honestly like how they look and was tired of slow melee dudes - now I either won't bother, or will buy second hand from other pissed people to make sure GW won't see any of that money.
The second hand models won't have rules support going forwards either, you're essentially mad at something you haven't bought in 6 years not being there for you to buy, you've lost nothing here.
I also don't know why I bothered to grab extra starter boxes to get more artillery - silly me, I guess, not expecting brand new models I looked the look of to be gone just like that
This does suck though.
Bravo, really good way to inspire confidence of your customers here James - and all they had to do to mitigate most of this is to say clearly what will be getting replacements soon and why they decided to ruin the best part of the army. They could also oh, not touch starter models and centerpieces (as these will upset players the most) and only announce retirement of boxes shortly after refresh models were ready - but no, that would actually require 5 minutes worth of effort to communicate with people who pay your wages!
Conversely you're asking them to sell models, which anyone educated in GW-fu knows are being replaced and will create feelsbads when people inevitably buy the "wrong" version. I'd argue they spent the 5 minutes communicating and the unwritten context, whilst dumb, is clear to anyone who has followed any GW products any length of time. There isn't a singular "win" here for them, with negatives to all options.
Man, I literally just finished painting all my Sacrosanct models, which is my entire SCE army, so this feels like GW just hates me specifically.
Retiring old kits that are getting replacements is fine, but throwing out an entire chamber line of relatively recent models, without any replacements on the way, hurts a lot.
Latmin wrote: Man, I literally just finished painting all my Sacrosanct models, which is my entire SCE army, so this feels like GW just hates me specifically.
Retiring old kits that are getting replacements is fine, but throwing out an entire chamber line of relatively recent models, without any replacements on the way, hurts a lot.
A non sarcastic F in the chat to everyone affected, it always sucks to have the rug pulled from under you this way. Glad I got out of Stormcast while the getting was good. Shame the Plague Monks aren't getting dumped, they're as bad as Rat Ogres.
The worst thing is that GW could have (should have) coordinated this shutdown of production from the factory wtih their release marketing. This would have had WAY less of a blow if they'd previewed 50% of the new stormcast and skaven models in advance. Right now we've only had the Liberator shown off (and one skaven model IF you hunt through forums and social groups)
It must be said, it is possible there is a Thunderstrike Ballista coming. It might just be one of the easy build kits that comes out alongside the new edition but isn't in the core box, and that would enable you to use the old ones much more easily.
But part of the mess of this is the bad comms of retiring some kits and not making it clear which ones are getting replaced and which aren't.
this seems... interesting? Nagash's passive ability hints at some sort of change to magic, but otherwise this all seems reasonable. OC as a dedicated stat is one of the best changes that 10th edition made, so i'm glad AOS is following that, but this otherwise seems pretty standard for a shakeup
Overread wrote: OH GOD the "hide a dice" person has been allowed back into the rules department!
i'm actually super happy to see that rule return, because it shows they aren't taking things too seriously with the rules this edition. even if there's going to be streamlining, we're still getting something as weird as this on a prominent model
Overread wrote: The worst thing is that GW could have (should have) coordinated this shutdown of production from the factory wtih their release marketing. This would have had WAY less of a blow if they'd previewed 50% of the new stormcast and skaven models in advance. Right now we've only had the Liberator shown off (and one skaven model IF you hunt through forums and social groups)
What makes you think they didn't? More likely they just chose to do it this way, for whatever reason. It's the same Marketing making the announcement about models leaving the range as are doing all the previews for the new edition.
If I had to give the designers the benefit of the doubt and not just assume all the drugs GW's financial success buys made their mushy brains even mushier, the thought behind it may be that convention puts a 4+ die roll in the hands of Nagash's owner. If you let the opposing player make a decision, that players gets to feel good about being put in control of the fate of his model and better yet, gets to make a choice instead of leaving it to the whims of a die (not that it changes the odds or anything).
I see it as mitigation. Nuke abilities are rarely fun for the one on the receiving end, but GW wants to have gods and demigods in their game whose power is adequately represented in the rules. If you won't remove the ability, you resort to psychological tricks to make it feel as good as possible instead.
CMLR wrote: Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges),
On the webstore, while the Stormcast and Skaven stuff is marked 'Last Chance to Buy', the Chaos boys are not - potentially this means the models will remain for Warcry use, but just be moved out of the AoS battletome. Alternatively, GW didn't update the webstore correctly.
That's how i read it. They're being retired from the STD tome, not Warcry itself.
That’s how I read it as well.
But also, surely they can still be used as models in StD armies.
Just whatever their generic line troops unit is.
Maruaders whatever they are in AoS now. Just use them as those.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
Overread wrote: The worst thing is that GW could have (should have) coordinated this shutdown of production from the factory wtih their release marketing. This would have had WAY less of a blow if they'd previewed 50% of the new stormcast and skaven models in advance. Right now we've only had the Liberator shown off (and one skaven model IF you hunt through forums and social groups)
What makes you think they didn't? More likely they just chose to do it this way, for whatever reason. It's the same Marketing making the announcement about models leaving the range as are doing all the previews for the new edition.
What makes me think they didn't is that they are announcing people losing things BEFORE they gain things.
Right now the only losses on the list that people expected are Skaven ones - all old kits or so core to the army (eg clan rats) that they are 100% guaranteed to get a new kit update.
Meanwhlie they are dropping a whole bunch of fairly recent Stormcast models with no notice as to which are being dropped entirely and not replaced; and those which will.
The difference is huge. Whilst I agree some skaven fans likely thought they had more time before the shut down; they knew that there as good chance of big shake up for that army. The Stormcast players were not expecting it (esp any who are not hounding forums for leaks and such; which is going to be a very large number of people).
As I said if GW had teased half the SC updates before announcing this then the blow would be a lot lot less. Instead the only one they've announced is your basic Liberator. It's just a bad way to market something and build up hype by first pulling the rug from under people and likely turning a good number off Stormcast .
Oh also it has RAMPAGE but we don't know what that does. I'm guessing its some "If this unit kills do something" Ability. It might be it gets another turn of combat or gets to move or something. Ergo not only do you kill something but you get whatever Rampage gives you too
If I had to give the designers the benefit of the doubt and not just assume all the drugs GW's financial success buys made their mushy brains even mushier, the thought behind it may be that convention puts a 4+ die roll in the hands of Nagash's owner. If you let the opposing player make a decision, that players gets to feel good about being put in control of the fate of his model and better yet, gets to make a choice instead of leaving it to the whims of a die (not that it changes the odds or anything).
I see it as mitigation. Nuke abilities are rarely fun for the one on the receiving end, but GW wants to have gods and demigods in their game whose power is adequately represented in the rules. If you won't remove the ability, you resort to psychological tricks to make it feel as good as possible instead.
It feels like weak mitigation though.
The problem is it could be 1 zombie dragon of 6 in your flesheaters army or it could be your gargant and suddenly 1/4 or more of your army is gone in one turn. No struggle; no strain just a "you die".
Even if you get the fun of picking a hand that might or might not hold a dice its still a huge thing.
It's not like rock-paper-scissors where the game takes seconds so if you lose you can play again. It's a 4-6 hour game where one player with Nagash could obliterate any major unit in close combat with effortless ease. Heck I suspect even models like Morathi and Gotrek who are design to be tarpit models would be taken out in one hit.
Yes its very GW style to have these huge power swings; it doesn't mean its good in practice though.
And yes you can mitigate it by flooding Nagash with lots of chaff models; but chances are you'd do that anyway with a model like him because he is always going ot be a huge powerhouse on the table.
I think the whole gods angle is a weak one because not every faction gets a god and gods are not like Warcasters in Warmachine - a focal point for the game and a cornerstone of army construction and gameplay.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.
As I said if GW had teased half the SC updates before announcing this then the blow would be a lot lot less. Instead the only one they've announced is your basic Liberator. It's just a bad way to market something and build up hype by first pulling the rug from under people and likely turning a good number off Stormcast .
Sure, there are other ways of doing it, and some of those might be received better than others – but that's not evidence it wasn't coordinated. I don't know what motivated GW to want to make the announcement in this way at this point in time, but I'm sure it was done with full consideration to the previews and pre-release build-up.
>>** Many newer players who hear that a model has 10 Wounds might assume that it’s in pretty poor shape, rather than fighting fit…
I mean... maybe, if they're thick as gak, and we've been calling them Wounds in warhammer for what, thirty or so years at this point? It's a stupid change.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.
No. Come on. We don't need the 'wait and see the real rules' dance again.
Billicus wrote: >>** Many newer players who hear that a model has 10 Wounds might assume that it’s in pretty poor shape, rather than fighting fit…
I mean... maybe, if they're thick as gak, and we've been calling them Wounds in warhammer for what, thirty or so years at this point? It's a stupid change.
Eh, we'll live. It's just a weird thing for a new player to get their head around, and keeping it confusing just to keep the old-timers comfortable is not much help.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.
It makes a poor example if the warscroll they're using to identify all the features of a warscroll is intentionally omitting the section that changes the wargear in addition to the optional extras. I know there will be dual hammers, you know there will be dual hammers, most everyone knows there will be dual hammers, but they wrote an article for the people who apparently don't, and they didn't mention it.
What I'm poorly masking here is a frustration that they're making all of these changes to invalidate existing sourcebooks with the ostensible goal of making things as entirely clear as possible, and then also just not doing that. I can't use my current books anymore because someone might confuse wounds with damage taken, but that same person is just going to intuitively understand that in the army where units are differentiated by their wargear, the unit with hammers and shields is actually the same unit as the one with dual hammers?
Laughing Man wrote: Why is everyone freaking out over an ability Nagash already has on his current warscroll?
Ha! Good call.
Despite owning a soulblight battletome I've never really looked at Nagash (don't own the model).
That said his current ability requires you to cast the spell successfully first, THEN do the hand dice hiding. The new one just advances straight to the dice holding step.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
It could be as well a partially shown warscroll just to explain how they now work. I suspect that a full warscroll will be different, and will show all the options Liberators have.
It makes a poor example if the warscroll they're using to identify all the features of a warscroll is intentionally omitting the section that changes the wargear in addition to the optional extras. I know there will be dual hammers, you know there will be dual hammers, most everyone knows there will be dual hammers, but they wrote an article for the people who apparently don't, and they didn't mention it.
What I'm poorly masking here is a frustration that they're making all of these changes to invalidate existing sourcebooks with the ostensible goal of making things as entirely clear as possible, and then also just not doing that. I can't use my current books anymore because someone might confuse wounds with damage taken, but that same person is just going to intuitively understand that in the army where units are differentiated by their wargear, the unit with hammers and shields is actually the same unit as the one with dual hammers?
And this is the dance we always play with GW.
Because they have to rebuild every 3 years they make a LOT of changes purely for the sake of change and any attempts to improve clarity within the game get lost in the fact that its a fresh rule system with its own quirks and issues. It's why we often end up having the same complaints in different places; GW fixes them in area A but then also goes into change areas b and c into new things and now they have problems. Next edition they fix B but then change A and C and now they have problems.
It's why their game systems feel very "new" and unpolished despite running games for 30-40 years
I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..
Overread wrote: OH GOD the "hide a dice" person has been allowed back into the rules department!
i'm actually super happy to see that rule return, because it shows they aren't taking things too seriously with the rules this edition. even if there's going to be streamlining, we're still getting something as weird as this on a prominent model
Return?
Correct me if I'm wrong but for something to return doesn't it have left 1st?
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
Based on gwaos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Am I missing something? What is Power Level and why does it matter to have 3 less of it if Nagash takes 10 wounds?
my assumption is that it ties into magic? but they clearly included it here as a teaser of later rules to be shown off
Overread wrote:There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.
I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..
Magic was my initial assumption too, but with out them saying I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
Based on gwaos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.
Well, how about that.
I'll eat my words, they did indeed explain everything you need to know rules-wise about the warscroll.
Also this reply was a silver-lining to that news
Overread wrote: There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.
I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..
Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6
Fayric wrote: The cynic in me wonder how much of the sacrosanct removal is a marketing ploy. It sure create alot of buzz around the new edition.
Together with finally updating the skaven range, GW is aiming for the best edition ever (in sales).
Calling it now, they release Warpcast Immortals in 5th edition. The sacrosanct chamber spends the next 3 years in seclusion trying to figure out how to fix the curse of reforging until they come to the conclusion that Sigmar is an evil lying bastard and that chaos was right or something or the only way to save the stormcast is with warp-lightning acquired via a pact with the Horned Rat.
Thus, the sacrosanct chamber becomes evil stormcast.
Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6
Perhaps or the power levels stack up over turns. So he gets 9 per turn and you could save them and not use any and use more next turn; or he could spend them all on spells and, I assume, counterspells
Am I correct in reading that Liberator warscroll as having no discernible profile for the dual hammers both of the pictured miniatures are armed with?
The +1 save from the shields has been baked in with the update, but there's nothing about the actual visual representation they chose to go with in the article about how everything is very simple and easy to understand now?
Based on gwaos fb post only model equipment that matters profile wise is grand hammer or not.
Well, how about that.
I'll eat my words, they did indeed explain everything you need to know rules-wise about the warscroll.
Also this reply was a silver-lining to that news
Overread wrote: There's also a 7 sitting on one of the abilities.
I wonder if power-level is going to be some kind of magic resource system. Ergo you get X number per turn to spend or save with stronger spells costing more etc..
Power Level being a magic resource would explain the Wizard (9) in his keywords, so he loses the Invocation of Nagash (7) after taking sufficient damage and being dropped down to Power Level 6
Hey now, double tower sheild Wall builds in Souls games are some of the most fun you can have.
As mexican myself, I feel those Liberators are handling their hammers as maracas, on a stereotypical, funny way, or as air traffic control guys, or Shadow Shaman in Dota 2.
Warscroll: there's interesting things!
I like the return of levels, and how crazy high a wizard's can be now, I like they haven't removed Rampages (as a lizard enjoyer that would've pissed me enough to not try the edition), I like that seems that magic is casted across the phases, I like the USR, I like the removal of Battleshock, which I liked in concept but was rubbish.
Well, aside from the purge of the armies/mini's detailed on the last few pages (which was a business decision that I can at least understand, although I disagree with it), the revelation that the liberator counts the same regardless of how its modeled is my first big design decision red flag for this edition. They were on a pretty hot streak.
I know that they had already "standardised" some units and their equipment options (looking at my soon to be extinct Dragon Ogors warscroll for instance, or Warcry warbands) and that a lot of warscrolls only have one equipment option, taking away the option for in game customization sucks.
With my Fyreslayers, I liked having equipment options because the amount of warscrolls is so sparse and now from the looks of it, it'll be more sparse. No debate about if I should equip my Hearthguard Bezerkers with Poleaxe or Broadaxe anymore based on what I might be facing. They're all the same now(if this design paradigm continues).
edit: Also, the top comment in that FB pic above : (paraphrasing) "I'm glad you showed off Nagash's Warscroll first. We'll need a necromancer to resurrect all of the armies you guys killed." Nicely done.
Uh folks hand of dust has been in the game with exactly the same way to resolve it for the whole of the game. The only difference is that it's a rampage now and not a spell. While it's easier to pull off there are mechanics in 3rd edition that let you turn off rampages. I'm sure there will be something similar in 4th edition.
The power level is almost certainly the number of spells he can cast which is 9, one for each book of Nagash. Once he takes 10 damage he goes down to 6 casts which is the same as it is now.
As for the weapon options I think we'll still see them in some cases like Fyreslayers but the different options will be different warscrolls. They probably don't want to do that with liberators as it would add back the bloat they are trying to cut.
GW already started watering down units to not matter what weapons they had in close combat in AoS already - they've also done it to a few in 40K (Warriors went from multiple to 1 profile).
It seems to be a thing for GW right now to be on a huge simplification purge.
I'm honestly also not a fan of it in fantasy. If I take spears I want them to be different to swords to be different to maces etc.... For me that's part of the flavour of a unit in itself is if you take them with spears for that reach or swords for the combat ability etc....
Overread wrote: GW already started watering down units to not matter what weapons they had in close combat in AoS already - they've also done it to a few in 40K (Warriors went from multiple to 1 profile).
It seems to be a thing for GW right now to be on a huge simplification purge.
I'm honestly also not a fan of it in fantasy. If I take spears I want them to be different to swords to be different to maces etc.... For me that's part of the flavour of a unit in itself is if you take them with spears for that reach or swords for the combat ability etc....
To be tbf, we still have to see the abilities on a Warriors unit that, instead of swaping hand weapons for great weapons, changes a hand weapon for a long weapon, like Chaos or Saurus.
Overread wrote: GW already started watering down units to not matter what weapons they had in close combat in AoS already - they've also done it to a few in 40K (Warriors went from multiple to 1 profile).
It seems to be a thing for GW right now to be on a huge simplification purge.
I'm honestly also not a fan of it in fantasy. If I take spears I want them to be different to swords to be different to maces etc.... For me that's part of the flavour of a unit in itself is if you take them with spears for that reach or swords for the combat ability etc....
To be tbf, we still have to see the abilities on a Warriors unit that, instead of swaping hand weapons for great weapons, changes a hand weapon for a long weapon, like Chaos or Saurus.
Ahh sorry by 40K and warriors I meant Tyranid Warriors not Chaos Warriors in AoS
Overread wrote: GW already started watering down units to not matter what weapons they had in close combat in AoS already - they've also done it to a few in 40K (Warriors went from multiple to 1 profile).
It seems to be a thing for GW right now to be on a huge simplification purge.
I'm honestly also not a fan of it in fantasy. If I take spears I want them to be different to swords to be different to maces etc.... For me that's part of the flavour of a unit in itself is if you take them with spears for that reach or swords for the combat ability etc....
To be tbf, we still have to see the abilities on a Warriors unit that, instead of swaping hand weapons for great weapons, changes a hand weapon for a long weapon, like Chaos or Saurus.
Ahh sorry by 40K and warriors I meant Tyranid Warriors not Chaos Warriors in AoS
That'd sound about right, actually. Saurus and Chaos Warriors still got different profiles for hand and pole weapons, but the more recent Cryptguard did not.
And based on the article:
However, while missile weapons still have a Range – albeit generally reduced – every model can now fight within a 3” combat range in melee. It’s a simple change, but one that will streamline pile-ins and combat resolution.
It sounds like all melee weapons just have one universal range, all assembly options are purely cosmetic, and the difference between units such as Liberators and Vindictors is probably down to their abilities
Wait 3-6 years and the pendulum will swing back the other way to strict WYSIWYG and every model option being supported by a strictly distinct set of rules.
They are doing this now because little Timmy is deathly confused by the differences between all the different weapon options.
In a few years time, little Timmy will be deathly confused by why his dudes with a sword and shield do nothing different from his dudes with two hammers.
I see your Plague Monks and raise you a Night Runners.
These fellas were pretty awesome 20 years ago.
25 years. And no, they were never awesome - the only good build was the black Skaven with masked head, cloak and two claws. I used some weapons (without hands of course), tails and torsi for conversions, but the rest of the kit was garbage.
Tim the Biovore wrote: It sounds like all melee weapons just have one universal range, all assembly options are purely cosmetic, and the difference between units such as Liberators and Vindictors is probably down to their abilities
Not what I meant. Since Liberators have a single loadout and the ability Crit (Mortal), we're yet to see if units like the ones I mentioned have different abilities depending on a long or short weapon.
Or they just become a cosmetic choice, frick me in the butthole.
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait 3-6 years and the pendulum will swing back the other way to strict WYSIWYG and every model option being supported by a strictly distinct set of rules.
They are doing this now because little Timmy is deathly confused by the differences between all the different weapon options.
In a few years time, little Timmy will be deathly confused by why his dudes with a sword and shield do nothing different from his dudes with two hammers.
It's not little Timmy getting confused, its Spike the tournament player demanding more exact balance in competitions so options are removed to have less elements to have to try adjusting correctly.
If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
No, I'd say beastmen still hold that title having been cancelled twice and still not seen any love in the interim. That said lots of people love heavily armoured warriors. The only chaotic thing about the line is this sudden announcement of kits being dropped.
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
Works for 40k…
Dominion was overproduced, but it was also their best selling fantasy starter ever according to one of the investor reports iirc.
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
Who designed the original Stormcast concept? Was there any Goodwin or Blanche influence in there, or was it some rando?
Sad to see so many kits being retired. I don’t hate those clan rats for rank and flank purposes, and I’m mildly tempted to buy some savage orca to fill out the savage orc contingent in my O&G army, but I’m refraining as it’s been more than a decade since I last pulled a Warhammer army out of my closet.
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
Who designed the original Stormcast concept? Was there any Goodwin or Blanche influence in there, or was it some rando?
There’s Blanche concept art for Stormcast out there.
I don't think anyone would have ever bought Radukars court separately. I mean why would you when you could get the whole game for a £100 over £85 for just the court?
Who designed the original Stormcast concept? Was there any Goodwin or Blanche influence in there, or was it some rando?
As pointed out, Blanche did contribute. Problem is, great as those design are, they could not survive contact with the idea that a poster faction needs to be easy to paint, because Marines are.
So what was meant to be fantasy Custodes got formatted down to something you could spray gold, wash, and be done with.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think anyone would have ever bought Radukars court separately. I mean why would you when you could get the whole game for a £100 over £85 for just the court?
Wasn't there a time when the Court was available, but the game wasn't?
I wonder what this will do to the price of the Sacrosanct on Ebay. Probably people will dump it at lower prices not sure.
Either way Im good I have all the minis I wanted and not something I will sell anytime soon, but I get the feeling these will not retain a good value for money going forward. Kind of sucks if you want to sell and get into a different army though.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think anyone would have ever bought Radukars court separately. I mean why would you when you could get the whole game for a £100 over £85 for just the court?
Agreed, however GW removing it means they are likely removing those named models from the Soulblight Army for the next update.
As I said I hope this means they'll bring some of them in as stand alone models/infantry/monsters for the army rather than just outright remove them entirely. But this is GW so its very hard to predict what path they'll take.
Well judging by what they've done in putting the warcry units back just into warcry, i think who's ever decision making now just wants a clean break in every system. No more crossovers (apart from in fluff).
I dunno, they've only removed the Slaves to Darkness Warcry models. Other armies with Warcry sets (and in fairness they are few) haven't been touched, nor have the underworld teams.
I think the Slaves is purely because Warcry has a LOT of Slaves models and trying to balance a dozen infantry units into a faction where each of them is basically in the same slot of cheaper infantry chaff is probably really hard to do.
Flavour wise they are super great, but mechanically its a mess.
The real bad part of this is that it seems to hint at not only 3-year edition cycles, but 6-year edition resets. (40k will be the next test, as 10th was a reset so 11th should be a rework and then 12th should be another hard reset)
With so many tomes for both AOS and 40k that even if they released one a month (which they don't) it'd take around 2 years for everyone to get one, leaving a year before there's a new edition and another round of tomes, I don't see how this model is going to be sustainable at all for any sort of serious game.
It's already bad enough and they show no signs of slowing down or changing it. At the very least they should have moved away from the Battletome method for just this reason, so there's not gulfs of power imbalance between who gets lucky enough to get a book first and who is stuck with the index equivalent for years.
Even without re-sets every 6 years the 3 year cycle still means you need a new battletome/codex and yep its been said many times now - as soon as GW starts to get the balance fixing; as soon as things settle BOOM they blow it all up again. The 3 year cycle is nuts rules wise and even product wise.
Honestly whilst it generates money for GW I can well see a point at which they simply burn the market out or end up growing their competition
Overread wrote: I dunno, they've only removed the Slaves to Darkness Warcry models. Other armies with Warcry sets (and in fairness they are few) haven't been touched, nor have the underworld teams.
I think the Slaves is purely because Warcry has a LOT of Slaves models and trying to balance a dozen infantry units into a faction where each of them is basically in the same slot of cheaper infantry chaff is probably really hard to do.
Flavour wise they are super great, but mechanically its a mess.
Then again you could be right
GW might aim for separation as battletomes are updated, with Skaven and Sigmarines being the obvious two happening now, and everyone else getting their Warcry warband rules removed from AoS when it's their turn. Slaves to Darkness might be an outlier because they get a Darkoath overhaul before the new edition and GW wants to be just as clear as with Skaven and Sigmarines what goes the way of the dodo so people interested in picking up models for the army focus on the new, shiny, more expensive releases?
It's worth considering that last year's removal of a lot of Marine kits wasn't well received not the least because it happened after the kits got index rules. This might be GW giving advance warning well ahead of time to avoid some of the unpleasant reactions?
Overread wrote: Even without re-sets every 6 years the 3 year cycle still means you need a new battletome/codex and yep its been said many times now - as soon as GW starts to get the balance fixing; as soon as things settle BOOM they blow it all up again. The 3 year cycle is nuts rules wise and even product wise.
Honestly whilst it generates money for GW I can well see a point at which they simply burn the market out or end up growing their competition
If you take that a full army takes several years to collect and finish off... I mean any informed client that wants to collect an army that he he knows it was updated with new models 2 or 3 years ago, it runs the risk of being trashed next update. Its not a sustainable for this type of products that you need to build and paint so much for a long time. But what do we know? We keep being told we are not the target audience. Weird they do so much nostalgia comeback ranges though.
It's worth mentioning that the WarCry warbands being removed aren't all of the Slaves to Darkness warbands. No Legionnaires or Darkoath Ravagers, nor is the Stormcast group there.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't think anyone would have ever bought Radukars court separately. I mean why would you when you could get the whole game for a £100 over £85 for just the court?
Agreed, however GW removing it means they are likely removing those named models from the Soulblight Army for the next update.
As I said I hope this means they'll bring some of them in as stand alone models/infantry/monsters for the army rather than just outright remove them entirely. But this is GW so its very hard to predict what path they'll take.
They're all on the same frame so this seems very unlikely.
GW might aim for separation as battletomes are updated, with Skaven and Sigmarines being the obvious two happening now, and everyone else getting their Warcry warband rules removed from AoS when it's their turn. Slaves to Darkness might be an outlier because they get a Darkoath overhaul before the new edition and GW wants to be just as clear as with Skaven and Sigmarines what goes the way of the dodo so people interested in picking up models for the army focus on the new, shiny, more expensive releases?
It's worth considering that last year's removal of a lot of Marine kits wasn't well received not the least because it happened after the kits got index rules. This might be GW giving advance warning well ahead of time to avoid some of the unpleasant reactions?
The stated reasons are that the Darkoath now (or soon will) fill the role occupied by the Warcry warbands, plus the age of the kits – mostly from the previous edition, although Horns of Hashut were pretty recent.
"With the arrival of the Darkoath, the Slaves to Darkness have finally found their definitive mortal followers. This means that a number of warbands representing the wider worshippers of Chaos in the Mortal Realms will be retiring from the spotlight – and the range. This mostly involves warbands from the previous edition of Warcry…"
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
or GW could exit wargaming entirely and pivot towards being britain's new premier chocolate company— neither is going to happen. GW is very clear in their intentions, and we know why. rotating the factions in your starter box was never as popular for WHFB as people wish it was. if it had been popular, the game would have made money. now, AOS is sticking to one single army to be the face of the game, and it's making more than fantasy ever did. you're free to not like it, but stop acting like what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole. whether it's stormcasts or space marines, the poster boy factions are what keep the game alive
So having a shield and hammer gives you the same attacks and armor as having two hammers? Pure idiocy.
I was initially bitter about it, as its a level of abstraction too far. Then I recalled how Blightkings have been like that from the start. From buying them at their End Times release to then building roughly 40 all converted with unique heads and weapon loadouts over almost 2 editions, it was probably the most fun I had hobbying in that time period. Its definitely going to be weird, and if I get any new SCE kits I’ll try to keep them with a uniform loadout just due to the visuals. It fits the chaotic nature of the Blightkings, but not the SCE, visually in my mind.
I expect the Liberator kit won’t have enough options to kit them all out with shields or 2 hammers and thats where this rule change is coming from.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
or GW could exit wargaming entirely and pivot towards being britain's new premier chocolate company— neither is going to happen. GW is very clear in their intentions, and we know why. rotating the factions in your starter box was never as popular for WHFB as people wish it was. if it had been popular, the game would have made money. now, AOS is sticking to one single army to be the face of the game, and it's making more than fantasy ever did. you're free to not like it, but stop acting like what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole. whether it's stormcasts or space marines, the poster boy factions are what keep the game alive
Last I checked, there were a handful of other differences between WHFB and AoS besides starter box faction distributions. It might just be possible that any of the other difference also contribute to whatever their difference in sales and popularity is.
Anyway, the starter box factions in WHFB seemed to do a pretty good job in making people interested in starting the included factions, created widely available core plastic sets for ranges that were often lacking them or in need of an update, and subsequently helped create a player community collecting diverse armies. Overly emphasizing a single army to the detriment of others, to the detriment of diversity, and now to the detriment of kit/unit longevity by needing to invent something new for an already complete range? I only see negatives in that strategy. (And if they don't make a set with other armies, I am unsure how they could know it would not be equally profitable, if not more so.)
It's even worse for Stormcast because they aren't selling like Marines. So GW can't just use a subfaction of Stormcast to focus on - its all one big army. So yeah if you're going to do a 10-15 model revamp every 3 years that army is going to get bloated and over-changed above all others.
It's also a baffling strategy considering that AoS has a LOT of other armies that would do really well with a big injection of models. So not only are you bloating one army up but you're also delaying the potential popularity and sales of another.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
or GW could exit wargaming entirely and pivot towards being britain's new premier chocolate company— neither is going to happen. GW is very clear in their intentions, and we know why. rotating the factions in your starter box was never as popular for WHFB as people wish it was. if it had been popular, the game would have made money. now, AOS is sticking to one single army to be the face of the game, and it's making more than fantasy ever did. you're free to not like it, but stop acting like what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole. whether it's stormcasts or space marines, the poster boy factions are what keep the game alive
Oh yeah for sure, the poster boy stormcast are selling so well. GW was like hey you know what we hate? Money! Lets cut all the kits that are really selling!!
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
or GW could exit wargaming entirely and pivot towards being britain's new premier chocolate company— neither is going to happen. GW is very clear in their intentions, and we know why. rotating the factions in your starter box was never as popular for WHFB as people wish it was. if it had been popular, the game would have made money. now, AOS is sticking to one single army to be the face of the game, and it's making more than fantasy ever did. you're free to not like it, but stop acting like what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole. whether it's stormcasts or space marines, the poster boy factions are what keep the game alive
Oh yeah for sure, the poster boy stormcast are selling so well. GW was like hey you know what we hate? Money! Let's cut all the kits that are really selling!!
"what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole."
It's not about the game health or the minis or the IP it is, and always will be, about pleasing the shareholders. But that means jack to me since I'm not one and don't want to be. But yeah a bit of perspective about the "Purposes" of these actions.
It's all fair play once you understand their goals. Problem is my goals do not necessarily align with GW's ones and thats ok, less investment on their crack.
Regardless of company and causes of discontinuing vast amounts of kits or ranges, it's ALWAYS sad. The fact that some have only been around 6 years its a record on GW turnaround, people acting it was expected or its healthy due to X or Y are sorry deluded.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
OR... they could do what they used to do for WHFB and actually rotate BOTH factions in the edition starter box so they don't have to keep inventing new units for the poster boys.
or GW could exit wargaming entirely and pivot towards being britain's new premier chocolate company— neither is going to happen. GW is very clear in their intentions, and we know why. rotating the factions in your starter box was never as popular for WHFB as people wish it was. if it had been popular, the game would have made money. now, AOS is sticking to one single army to be the face of the game, and it's making more than fantasy ever did. you're free to not like it, but stop acting like what they're doing is purposeless or that it doesn't have positive benefits to the game as a whole. whether it's stormcasts or space marines, the poster boy factions are what keep the game alive
Last I checked, there were a handful of other differences between WHFB and AoS besides starter box faction distributions. It might just be possible that any of the other difference also contribute to whatever their difference in sales and popularity is.
Anyway, the starter box factions in WHFB seemed to do a pretty good job in making people interested in starting the included factions, created widely available core plastic sets for ranges that were often lacking them or in need of an update, and subsequently helped create a player community collecting diverse armies. Overly emphasizing a single army to the detriment of others, to the detriment of diversity, and now to the detriment of kit/unit longevity by needing to invent something new for an already complete range? I only see negatives in that strategy. (And if they don't make a set with other armies, I am unsure how they could know it would not be equally profitable, if not more so.)
When GW killed WFB, WFB accounted for less than 10% of their total sales while 40K (and more specifically, Space Marines of all kind) were accounting for the majority of their sales.
You are talking about creating a "diverse player community" but the hard truths are :
1. GW doesn't care about creating a player community. If it happens, it happens organically and it's good for the company, but their primary goal is money. And it's understandable (while unfortunate), the company almost went bankrupt a decade ago. I'm sick of space marines of all kind and this is why I mostly stopped playing 40K. But GW would be insane to not support them a lot. They simply sell ;
2. The so-called "community" was abysmal compared to 40K. WFB was more popular than 40K in only one country ever (France) and by the mid 2000s, 40K became the most popular setting there too.
CMLR wrote: Warcry and Underworlds culling for StD (now this hurts the most if they are not just removing the warscrolls and they are just deleting the models from their other games ranges),
On the webstore, while the Stormcast and Skaven stuff is marked 'Last Chance to Buy', the Chaos boys are not - potentially this means the models will remain for Warcry use, but just be moved out of the AoS battletome. Alternatively, GW didn't update the webstore correctly.
"off sale" when article talked about warcry warbands.
So having a shield and hammer gives you the same attacks and armor as having two hammers? Pure idiocy.
I can imagine me beeing positiv about this and building a dynamic unit, even making use of old stormcast swords, just to see 5th edition invalidating units with mixed weapons
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait 3-6 years and the pendulum will swing back the other way to strict WYSIWYG and every model option being supported by a strictly distinct set of rules.
They are doing this now because little Timmy is deathly confused by the differences between all the different weapon options.
In a few years time, little Timmy will be deathly confused by why his dudes with a sword and shield do nothing different from his dudes with two hammers.
In few years gw is selling for different timmy than now. Buy army, next customer.
ZergSmasher wrote: If faster model churn becomes a thing Warhammer will be more like MtG with its insane amount of churn (the main reason I would never want to play competitive Magic). But it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for GW considering the alternative to sunsetting models and units is an insane amount of bloat that will make balancing the game harder and harder.
Or they could return to a more measured release schedule and use that freed up production time/capacity to not be almost instantly out of stock for key new releases as well as to keep their existing models in stock for purchase so as not to miss out on those sales either, both of which prevent that insane bloat in the first place...
And look at lower profits. Wonder what company goes for.
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
Who designed the original Stormcast concept? Was there any Goodwin or Blanche influence in there, or was it some rando?
There’s Blanche concept art for Stormcast out there.
Call me a cultist or whatever but I love this kind of art. I love that we get to see this kind of influence throughout their studio. The gem that is Blanche drawing up these concepts and the designers making these models a reality.
I dread for savage orcs to not return to TOW, I seriously wanted to buy a solid 2000p of them and now they're just gone and prices will be all over the place, IF they happen to show off and deliver to my country.
Once upon a time,I had a fully painted Savage Orc army, pre-plastics.
The best I could manage was something approaching a kunnin’ deployment, cross my fingers and trust in Gork and Mork.
Between Frenzy and Animosity, there wasn’t much else I could do. But what a gloriously fun army it was. The damage those ladz could kick out, when doing what I could to pick at least vaguely favourable fights was astounding.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Once upon a time,I had a fully painted Savage Orc army, pre-plastics.
The best I could manage was something approaching a kunnin’ deployment, cross my fingers and trust in Gork and Mork.
Between Frenzy and Animosity, there wasn’t much else I could do. But what a gloriously fun army it was. The damage those ladz could kick out, when doing what I could to pick at least vaguely favourable fights was astounding.
Even when I lost? I still had a great time.
my 7th edition Orcs, an army I built because in 3rd I wanted one but the younger me could never afford them never once let me down.
they never won a game, not even by pure chance, I figured if my opponent didn't show up maybe I'd scrape 2nd place, an army quite capable, and which proved it, of doing more damage to itself than to the enemy.
an army I loved, and indeed still love, bless Thangrot the Magnificent and his sidekick Earwax, now lurking in the cellar somewhere, except one chariot which curiously is on a shelf above me right now for %REASONS%
an army that could drive a "serious" gamer to fits as it disintegrated in front of them, defeating their cunning plans and careful movement through randomised self destruction.
Goblins who hate the ever living fear of the great dustpan and brush coming for them..
sadly they are unlikely to see the table in that glory again
So does anyone else think they’re going to do a second round of Arcane Journals after they have one each for the nine main factions?
Or would they by that point be ready to introduce new army lists with a third compilation book to go with ravening hordes amend forces of fantasy?
Because at roughly 1 per quarter, it’ll be January ’26 by the time everyone has one AJ each.
frogert_poj wrote: Well now that Tomb kings and the Bretonnian ranges are back; Are Stormcast the largest dumpster fire faction in all of Warhammer?
1st, and 2nd edition kits are almost entirely OOP. and 3rd edition has the starter set that gets the award for bargain bin clearance pricing.
I don't think I have seen a worse off and more chaotic line. To top it off, its almost entirely dudes and dudettes in head to toe thick body armor. Who asked for that?
I cant imagine how Stormcast get to be in the starter set for 5th edition. It will be laughable...
Works for 40k…
Dominion was overproduced, but it was also their best selling fantasy starter ever according to one of the investor reports iirc.
I’m going to guess that it sold well in GW’s ledger because they sold a crapton to independent stockings who were then left with a turd on the shelf that they couldn’t even sell when heavily discounted. Still counts as a sale to GW even if the store can’t shift it.
Since we can't say those miniatures got squat in function of squats being a thing again, I propose we say they got Sacrosancted OR Boned, short for Bonesplintered.
Mr_Rose wrote: So does anyone else think they’re going to do a second round of Arcane Journals after they have one each for the nine main factions?
Or would they by that point be ready to introduce new army lists with a third compilation book to go with ravening hordes amend forces of fantasy?
Because at roughly 1 per quarter, it’ll be January ’26 by the time everyone has one AJ each.
If the rumours are true and Cathy and Kislev are on the table, we are going the see Army Books return after the 9 Journals are done, maybe with an updated rule book
When GW killed WFB, WFB accounted for less than 10% of their total sales while 40K (and more specifically, Space Marines of all kind) were accounting for the majority of their sales.
and I have never seen a source for that but if this would be the reason, GW would have killed AoS as well instead of trying to fix it.
So why GW decided to fix AoS to make it sell but for WHFB decided to kill it instead of making it sell
And no, past mid 7th they did not even try any more, despite the game being more popular than 40k in Europe (not just France)
One thing that there was is that 40k was more popular in the US since the beginning, and GW started focusing on the US market, so a 40k like fantasy game was their choice
Just that what GW thought people like and why people played 40k was something very different
Mr_Rose wrote: So does anyone else think they’re going to do a second round of Arcane Journals after they have one each for the nine main factions?
Or would they by that point be ready to introduce new army lists with a third compilation book to go with ravening hordes amend forces of fantasy?
Because at roughly 1 per quarter, it’ll be January ’26 by the time everyone has one AJ each.
If the rumours are true and Cathy and Kislev are on the table, we are going the see Army Books return after the 9 Journals are done, maybe with an updated rule book
I agree. We've seen GW use compendium rules releases before, Index in 40K and the like with big edition shake ups; heck they also did it for the first wave of AoS, though that was a little different because it was the super casual joke rule system more than the serious normal wargame rules that they make. And we also saw it in Necromunda,
GW has a tried and tested system of doing big compendium releases with either no split (Necro) or major faction splits (Grand Alliances, Good and Evil etc). It's a great method for starting a game and keeping both GW's investment down and player investment down plus they encourage players to dip into more than one faction at the start. Then when the next edition rolls out GW launches with their regular House/Battletome/Codex release pattern. Normally to positive reception because the rules go a little deeper; the units get broadened out and the faction gains a good chunk of lore, story, artwork and photography along the way
kodos wrote: and I have never seen a source for that but if this would be the reason, GW would have killed AoS as well instead of trying to fix it.
So why GW decided to fix AoS to make it sell but for WHFB decided to kill it instead of making it sell
And no, past mid 7th they did not even try any more, despite the game being more popular than 40k in Europe (not just France)
One thing that there was is that 40k was more popular in the US since the beginning, and GW started focusing on the US market, so a 40k like fantasy game was their choice
Just that what GW thought people like and why people played 40k was something very different
It's likely GW saw the rank and file nature of WFB as its biggest flaw as a product, hence AoS becoming a skirmish game.
As to why they batted for AoS, but not for WFB? They already burned down one bridge and likely weren't willing to burn another, especially a brand new one. The AoS salvage effort also coincided with the change in leadership in the company, as far as I can recall.
kodos wrote: and I have never seen a source for that but if this would be the reason, GW would have killed AoS as well instead of trying to fix it.
So why GW decided to fix AoS to make it sell but for WHFB decided to kill it instead of making it sell
And no, past mid 7th they did not even try any more, despite the game being more popular than 40k in Europe (not just France)
One thing that there was is that 40k was more popular in the US since the beginning, and GW started focusing on the US market, so a 40k like fantasy game was their choice
Just that what GW thought people like and why people played 40k was something very different
It's likely GW saw the rank and file nature of WFB as its biggest flaw as a product, hence AoS becoming a skirmish game.
As to why they batted for AoS, but not for WFB? They already burned down one bridge and likely weren't willing to burn another, especially a brand new one. The AoS salvage effort also coincided with the change in leadership in the company, as far as I can recall.
Cultist here who remembers when GW killed WFB and went to AOS. AoS replaced WFB so it wasn’t that one was supported and the other wasn’t. WFB was too complicated, battles took too long, and the cost for entrance was too high for most new players. When the majority of WFB players already have large armies they are less likely to purchase more armies or spend more money (huge reason so many meltdowns happened- don’t blame people who have invested huge blocks of time to building, painting, learning rules, etc. just to see all that get squatted.) Clearly the move paid off since according to GW - AoS is almost as popular as 40k- where with WFB it wasn’t even close. I’ve bought every starter set since 6th edition (orcs vs empire) and I’m looking forward to the new Sigmarines vs Skaven.
8th WHFB saw GW being clever to push the size of armies up to drive sales, all they really did was hasten its demise as it was more of less impractical for new players to start as the rules didn't really work below about 1,500 points
AoS 1st was a DoA until they brought out the book with the points, they seemed to seriously think people would play it without and that presumably their job of adding basic rules would get easier
Mr_Rose wrote: So does anyone else think they’re going to do a second round of Arcane Journals after they have one each for the nine main factions?
Or would they by that point be ready to introduce new army lists with a third compilation book to go with ravening hordes amend forces of fantasy?
Because at roughly 1 per quarter, it’ll be January ’26 by the time everyone has one AJ each.
If the rumours are true and Cathy and Kislev are on the table, we are going the see Army Books return after the 9 Journals are done, maybe with an updated rule book
When GW killed WFB, WFB accounted for less than 10% of their total sales while 40K (and more specifically, Space Marines of all kind) were accounting for the majority of their sales.
and I have never seen a source for that but if this would be the reason, GW would have killed AoS as well instead of trying to fix it.
So why GW decided to fix AoS to make it sell but for WHFB decided to kill it instead of making it sell
And no, past mid 7th they did not even try any more, despite the game being more popular than 40k in Europe (not just France)
One thing that there was is that 40k was more popular in the US since the beginning, and GW started focusing on the US market, so a 40k like fantasy game was their choice
Just that what GW thought people like and why people played 40k was something very different
Weren't Cathay and Kislev explicitly deconfirmed recently?
Mr_Rose wrote: So does anyone else think they’re going to do a second round of Arcane Journals after they have one each for the nine main factions?
Or would they by that point be ready to introduce new army lists with a third compilation book to go with ravening hordes amend forces of fantasy?
Because at roughly 1 per quarter, it’ll be January ’26 by the time everyone has one AJ each.
If the rumours are true and Cathy and Kislev are on the table, we are going the see Army Books return after the 9 Journals are done, maybe with an updated rule book
When GW killed WFB, WFB accounted for less than 10% of their total sales while 40K (and more specifically, Space Marines of all kind) were accounting for the majority of their sales.
and I have never seen a source for that but if this would be the reason, GW would have killed AoS as well instead of trying to fix it.
So why GW decided to fix AoS to make it sell but for WHFB decided to kill it instead of making it sell
And no, past mid 7th they did not even try any more, despite the game being more popular than 40k in Europe (not just France)
One thing that there was is that 40k was more popular in the US since the beginning, and GW started focusing on the US market, so a 40k like fantasy game was their choice
Just that what GW thought people like and why people played 40k was something very different
Weren't Cathay and Kislev explicitly deconfirmed recently?
'Forseeable future' was the language used - that is not 'never'.
Jammer87 wrote: Clearly the move paid off since according to GW - AoS is almost as popular as 40k- where with WFB it wasn’t even close.
...excuse me if I take that claim with a small mine of salt.
Yeah, we can't know for sure since GW protect their sales data as if they were nuclear secrets, but the few evidences that we have clearly doesnt point toward AOS being nearly as popular as 40k.
As for the range purge, it's pretty much a shame, but I guess it was invetiable. Still it's rather weird that they seems so adverse to having kits being used in more than one game (bar daemon of course). I guess it might be because they feel they can better trace the sales of each game this way but still rather weird.
Weird bit on "too expensive" is that of all the GW game systems if anything AoS has the lowest model count.
in that its actually playable with literally less than a dozen models on the table in total, even MESBG struggles to work at really small sizes.
the old small starter box with a dozen or so worked really well for introductory stuff and actually showed the rules worked at that size, three figures one side trying to stop five or so from the other side escaping etc
Jammer87 wrote: Clearly the move paid off since according to GW - AoS is almost as popular as 40k- where with WFB it wasn’t even close.
...excuse me if I take that claim with a small mine of salt.
Yeah, we can't know for sure since GW protect their sales data as if they were nuclear secrets, but the few evidences that we have clearly doesnt point toward AOS being nearly as popular as 40k.
As for the range purge, it's pretty much a shame, but I guess it was invetiable. Still it's rather weird that they seems so adverse to having kits being used in more than one game (bar daemon of course). I guess it might be because they feel they can better trace the sales of each game this way but still rather weird.
I wonder if their adversity will eventually shift somewhat, depending on their ongoing production issues and limitations to ongoing range expansions. Especially with Old World/AoS, it feels like a strain to keep everything in production when part of the lines could overlap, reducing required shelf space and production effort. Not making ranges compatible might make financial sense if you can sell two different sets to the same person for use in different systems, but if you don't have the capacity, selling the same set to two different players seems like the way to go. I'm certainly curious to see what weapon options the upcoming Skaven will have, and how well they will rank up if put on square bases... (though with the change to Old World base sizes, little clanrats have plenty of space, and if anything will look much better if using up more of it)
More importantly, the rat ogres have just been in dire need of a resculpt since, well, the previous set was released basically; it's one of those that didn't look good on day 1 and hasn't aged well either. Definitely the most I've been looking forward to a new release in quite a while!
Rat Ogres are all the more frustrating because the pair that came with Island of Blood are excellent. But, there’s only two of them, and they’re in set poses.
So head and shoulders above the multi-parts, they all look proper wonky when piled into a single unit mixing the models.
I for one, and I appreciate this might not be popular, could stomach standard Rat Ogres going bye-byes in TOW, because the Stormfiends just feel much more AoS in design and execution. Plus they’ve got that groovy little Brain Rat for some fun Master Blaster vibes.
Still somewhat baffled at just how much Stormcast is going though. I can’t pretend to be massively familiar with the range, but I do wonder if the majority are just resculpts, with the Sacrosanct Chamber just being too samey to Liberators and that to continue to be a separate unit? Reading the article that’s what it seems to be suggesting anyway.
In real-world terms, it could just be they don’t have the time and resources to resculpt everything, and so Sacrosanct have a fluff excuse to not be seen.
As for “without notice”? That feels like an oddly accurate but also unfair statement. They have given notice, in that article. But the news was somewhat out of the blue itself.
the models they are clearing out are the ones from earlier starter sets and the Mortal Realms magazine series, i.e. models people have enough of to not want more so dare say they didn't exactly sell amazingly well when you can get them pretty cheap, assuming you don't already have them as its likely club members have loads spare
and this being GW they will bring them back with a new hat in a slightly changed pose knowing that far too many will refuse to play against the now "legends" versions.. where had they not bothered with the "legends" bit they would just become straight proxies
what its really done though is show there is little ongoing value to models, that they now have a very definite lifespan after which in game they are essentially worthless
this is taking aim squarely at the second hand market where GW gets no revenue
Belthanos wrote: Another new skaven model sprue seems to have slipped into wild on fb skaven group. Sorta portable warp lightning gun wielding carried by single rat.
Guess whc was right. Except this was 2nd look already
Yeah, a lot of the Sacrosanct stuff suffered from being too similar in intent to the OG Stormcast.
For example, both had a unit of basic infantry with sword and board, plus option for a few with two-handers.
OG already had a box that made crossbow dudes...then Sacros introduced some other folks with crossbows.
Then we had the Vanguard 'shooty / scouty' guys who also bought in more units with crossbows, plus a fast moving cavalry unit that sort of overlapped with one of the Sarco units.
I think they took what should have been a few character wizards and turned it into a whole chamber. A very roughly analogy would be Space Marines and Grey Knights.
The other 'problem' is that the OG sculpts quickly started to look outdated. Sacro and then the Vanguard successively improved upon the original 'fatcast' (partly helped by adding females). Then they hit upon the slimmer and much more 'realistic' Thunderstrike armour.
It's as if they squashed two decades of the changes to Tactical marine sculpts into seven or eight years (from the consumer POV).
The other problem was that (thankfully) they haven't made Battletomes for separate Stormcast orders - so all the options are there for each army. My SCE battletome has over eighty entries. It's already as large as some SM Codexes have been.
While I was expecting GW to eventually replace the Sacros I wasn't expecting them just to stop selling them like this.
As an aside, another shoutout for the IoB RatOgres! Really great sclupts. I used them and the one from the screaming bell to make my Drukhari Grotesques. There was a fair amount of arm chopping to mask the duplicates. Although given the end goal, that it perhaps appropriate.
Rat Ogres are all the more frustrating because the pair that came with Island of Blood are excellent. But, there’s only two of them, and they’re in set poses.
So head and shoulders above the multi-parts, they all look proper wonky when piled into a single unit mixing the models.
I for one, and I appreciate this might not be popular, could stomach standard Rat Ogres going bye-byes in TOW, because the Stormfiends just feel much more AoS in design and execution. Plus they’ve got that groovy little Brain Rat for some fun Master Blaster vibes.
Still somewhat baffled at just how much Stormcast is going though. I can’t pretend to be massively familiar with the range, but I do wonder if the majority are just resculpts, with the Sacrosanct Chamber just being too samey to Liberators and that to continue to be a separate unit? Reading the article that’s what it seems to be suggesting anyway.
In real-world terms, it could just be they don’t have the time and resources to resculpt everything, and so Sacrosanct have a fluff excuse to not be seen.
As for “without notice”? That feels like an oddly accurate but also unfair statement. They have given notice, in that article. But the news was somewhat out of the blue itself.
yeah, that's how i feel about this. the new edition isn't dropping until june or july, most likely, and the units will be fully playable for another year, so GW is giving players plenty of time to hear about this and come to terms with it or figure out what they're doing with the models not being replaced (or to rebase their beastmen). this being one of the first things they said about the new edition makes it clear to me that they wanted people to know about this in advance. it's not like there's ever going to be a good time for this, so they might as well get it out of the way early
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