Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
It's kind of high end of hobby as it really shines when you go big both getting rather expensive figurines and have very good painting skills as badly painted 30k is an eye sore. Imho it's a good replacment for old and outdated apocalypse and gives new level of personalised troops of your legion/ad/daemon/sa instead of just the same stuff painted differently. It's deffo IoM attractive over the people from outside of that group so totaly understand if it isn't your cup of tea.
I like that 30K is a tragedy. It's the time of Legends striding through the galaxy and grinding all opposition under foot, and just on the eve of Ultimate Victory, treachery at Isstvan. The once great Empire of Humanity ripped apart by civil war. You get to see the roots of 40K and where the Space Marine Chapters came from. Pretty exciting stuff to me!
What is so appealing to me is that the "artifacts" in 40K are so commonplace in 30K. There is no "lost technology", and actually, there is "forbidden" technology being used. You actually get to use SM Tanks, not Land Raiders, SM aircraft, and a whole bunch of stuff that is only hinted at in 40K, but common place in 30K. You lose out on some of the "newer" technology of 40K. /shrug
Now on the other hand, it's 30K so it's only Legion on Legion. It gets pretty boring after a couple games playing MEQ vs. MEQ. Things are a bit different in that no one has ATSKNF; Stubborn is kinda common, and Fearless is pretty rare. It makes Standards all the more useful, and suddenly, leadership/morale checks become critical to the game. Space Marines play way differently when they don't have ATSKNF.
The vehicle variants are what really piqued my interest in 30K. The Anvillus and Kharybdis pattern drop pods, the Land Raider Proteus, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Sicaran Predators, and my favorite #1 30K vehicle: The Legion Fellblade.
It's totally understandable that some people would not like 30K. The design aesthetic is way different from 40K. Forgeworld did a great job making models that are both familiar to 40K, yet different enough to make you go "Huh?". You pretty much have to play 2,000+ points. a 2,000 point 30K game looks and feels like a 40K 1,500 point game. To really open up 30K, you should play it at 2,500+ points. At 2,500 points, you see the Legions in their true light, and not just "expensive and crappy 40K Space Marines". As noted above, it's also all MEQ vs. MEQ, and there isn't all that much AP3 weaponry except in specialist squads.
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
What's your opinion on 30k ?
I like 30k mainly because the balance is better than 40k, and there is no real codex churn. New books may add rules, but they don't make older rules irrelevant.
As far as the Marine vs. Marine thing goes, IMO its a misconception. You have Marines, Ad Mech, Solar Auxilia, some kind of army list for militias (never seen this), and Knights. Chaos Daemons are used. Orks and Eldar were around, so they can be used using the 40k codex. If someone wanted to play me with Necrons or Tyranids, I wouldn't have a problem (can just say its an early Tomb Awaekening or Hivefleet Arrival if fluff is cared about).
Only problem with mixing 30k and 40k is, and it took me a while to realize this, is that 40k codex armies are tpyically more powerful than anything 30k has to offer, at least Marines-wise, with the possible exception of the 3 or 4 most powerful Legions (being Alpha Legion, Ravenguard, Iron Hands, and possibly Imperial Fists).
I don't dislike 30K. In fact, I think the Mechanicum models and fluff are some of the best work that's come out of GW since... like, ever. And it's not even that it's good, it's consistently good. However, I do not understand the infatuation with the different Marks of armor, or the need to explore every crevice of detail In the fluff. I think a good game setting should leave a lot left unsaid, and at this point, there are so many varied hands in the process of writing HH background, that some of it is starting to stray into the absurd.
tl;dr Mechanicum is sex on a stick, the story of the Heresy was better when some of it was left to the imagination.
BlaxicanX wrote: That's the fault of your local meta. I can say the same for 40K.
You're saying it's the fault of the meta in a setting that goes into explicit detail about 20 separate Legions of Space Marines, but also happens to have the Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum? So it's the player's fault that the designers have explicitly said that this was a game about brother against brother, and that xenos would have only a minor role to play in the fluff and rules?
Being a giant fan of scratch building/kit bashing, user created fluff or background story, unique named characters, etc. 30k feels like it is very ridged in its fluff, its modeling, its characters, etc. The 30k story is really cool and is interesting to learn about but I find the well established canon to take away from the making and narrative aspect of the hobby. With the Horus Heresy being fairly well fleshed out (particularly the Legions), it makes having unique user created stuff tends to draw the ire of the "fans" who like to beat you over the head with the facts of the setting instead of letting somebody be creative.
I enjoy 40k (particularly Orks) because I can make up my own narrative, characters, custom models, etc. I get to enjoy making a Nob Tankbusta with a bomb with shark fins for a Rokkit Launcha or have a Tau Cadre with a unique color scheme. Not having to worry about using the wrong armor trim color or model of bolt pistol for an unnamed Space Marine Sergeant. Its not that I personally care if its "wrong" but I don't want to hear from random people that its not what the fluff says it should be. I even hear it occasionally about Ork stuff "the whole thinking it so it happens part was removed from the codex" and I just want to face palm so hard that it hits the back of my skull.
Xenos were a large part of 30K as a whole. Some of them we haven't seen yet I don't think (waiting on a full Megarachnids army to show up).
The 30K Universe is set up predominantly around Space Marines fighting humans who don't want to conform to the emperor's ways. So, the legions just go out and kill all of them and bring the planet into compliance.
All that said, yes, right now, 30K is just a Space Marine vs. Space Marine game, but it's only a very, very small sample (including all of the FW models + Betrayal at Calth). If BaC sells well and people start wanting to play 30K a good bit, I'm expecting to see the Horus Heresy tabletop rulebooks showing up under GW's logo and being sold on GW's website and at GW shops. And, I'm pretty sure they won't limit it just to space marines. I have a feeling they are going to bring out all the Xenos that were encountered during the time of the Horus Heresy as well.
Modeling-wise, FWIW, almost my entire 30k army is made using 40k models. I play HH games with 3 other dudes, and each one of us is the same way...one of the dudes has a couple of FW models, but not many, and they are for an AdMech army. I did but the BaC box, so I will soon be the only one with technically correct PA (if Mark IV can be said to be technically correct for any legion, which TBH I don't know, because I don't really care so much).
I know there are some mythical purists who only want 30k Marines in the correct Mark armor. I haven't met any of these creatures in Real Life, but if I ever do, then Time Travel.
Warzoner wrote: Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour.
That's one of the problems I have with *40k*, outside of Dark Vengeance the rank and file CSM mini's aren't really warped either unless you count the odd horn or topknot, at least in 30k that's acceptable since the majority of the traitors have yet to actually dedicate themselves to Chaos.
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it.
Oh dear.
Please report to warhammer world with your wallet for attitude re-adjustment.
I play Ordo Reductor and my faction wouldn't exist if it weren't for xenos forces resisting the great crusade. (!)
Most of my models are mechanicum, imperial knights and an allied-detachment-worth of vanilla legion mari.. sorry, Muh-reens.
I'm looking at my stormtroopers and thinking "militia/cult or tech-thralls?", and i'm going for some solar auxillia after i've got a legio cybernetica force.
Fyi; You can take a daemon army compete with demi-LOW hq choice if you're forging that narrative hard enough!
In short, i'm loving the variety in the HH and in my experience, this myth of the HH being a marine based circle-jerk is exactly that.
I find with 18 Legion, 3 Flavors of Mechanicum, Solar Auxilia, Imerial Militia, Cult Militia, and Questoris Knight Households...there's plenty of diversity.
I like 30k because it's more streamlined and less crazy then 40k. Yes it's an expansion to it so uses 7th edition...but no unbound allowed, no LoW below 2k points and even then it has to be less than 25%...Just makes more sense. And way less ally shenanigans going on.
Oh and I love that the 'chaos' factions are just evil, not dumb/pointy/spikey just for the sake of being chaos-i-fied.
I kind of like the 40k setting because it's so wild and diverse. Battles on space-going cities, skirmishes in mega-hives or worlds given over wholly to industry, rediscovered sectors that reappear from the Warp after being missing for millennia.. with the inhabitants changed. There's room to build your own theme, your own diverse conflicts, design your own worlds and chapters and Craftworlds and so on.
On the other hand, the universe of 30k has a specific theme - civil war, the fall of Mankind, brother against brother. You don't have to follow the theme, but you miss a lot of what's best about the setting as published if you do.
GW did it smarter (for 40k at least) than, say Games Designers' Workshop, and kept the two separate. The Fifth Frontier War against the Zhodani was a decent backdrop for Classic Traveller; but by the Time of MegaTraveller and The New Era they had decided to wreck the setting they had built up over a decade.
In the end though, it's not an important life decision you have to think through to justify - don't like it, move on, chill.
In 40k, it's all about mankind being assailed from all sides, fighting for survival. Hence, lots of alien factions. During the Heresy, the narrative is the fall of humanity from grace, and so the focus is and should always be on the human factions (and Chaos). Yes, the aliens were present, but they aren't important to the theme. That's why we've not seen any 30k Ork or Eldar models and why I think it's unlikely we ever will.
I like the basic story of the Heresy and the tragic themes. I don't particularly like what Black Library did with the details, and I'm glad Forge World have reined themselves back a bit (although we're stuck with the depiction of the Primarchs; they make good display models, but other than that I'm not a fan). Mind you, perhaps I'm just being old and cranky; my idea of the Heresy was forged by the artwork in 1st edition Space Marine - full of beaky Marines blowing each other up, ambushing each other in tenement blocks and stringing the corpses of their enemies up on ruined buildings, all while angsting over having to kill their old friends.
I can't wait to play Questoris Knights, but I'm waiting until I can get their arms/helmets as bits from somewhere. Maybe get some Titans too. Probably a Reaver.
BlaxicanX wrote: That's the fault of your local meta. I can say the same for 40K.
You're saying it's the fault of the meta in a setting that goes into explicit detail about 20 separate Legions of Space Marines, but also happens to have the Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum? So it's the player's fault that the designers have explicitly said that this was a game about brother against brother, and that xenos would have only a minor role to play in the fluff and rules?
#notsureifserious
No, I was talking to Master of Ordinance, not you. There are several prominent non-marine factions in 30K. If nobody in his area wants to play those non-marine factions then that's a reflection on his local group of players, not the game.
The logic is equivalent to criticizing 40K for being too Space Wolves-centric because your 6 friends all play Space Wolves.
FW has said they have no intention of desire of ever doing xenos in 30k because it would defeat the theme of the game, etc. They also said if you do want to play xenos you can can use your 40k army, though they neither recommend nor endose you doing so as they arent balanced against one another.
I feel the same. I like Marines but I don't understand whats so great about 30k. seems to be lots of talk about it lately. I am not interested. Not sure if its a hipster type thing or just another reason to collect models? IDK but to each there own.
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
What's your opinion on 30k ?
Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...
with Knights,
Daemons,
Mechanicum,
Solar Auxilia,
and Titan Legions.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.
kb_lock wrote: I'm an SM fanboy, but have zero interest in 30k - I just don't like the look of them.
I'm so glad that I don't actually want the calth set, I spend enough on this stuff as it is.
I'm not so keen on mark 2 or 3 armour, either. Marks 4, 5 and 6 look good, though. Sadly, I've got Emperor's Childredn, so by the time I get to mark 6, all my Marines will be mutated weirdos.
Grimlineman wrote: I feel the same. I like Marines but I don't understand whats so great about 30k. seems to be lots of talk about it lately. I am not interested. Not sure if its a hipster type thing or just another reason to collect models? IDK but to each there own.
It's not a hipster thing, there's just a growing number of people getting into it for a variety of reasons and as there's no seperate 30k section here you've just noticed a higher number of 30k threads pop up.
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
What's your opinion on 30k ?
Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...
with Knights,
Daemons,
Mechanicum,
Solar Auxilia,
and Titan Legions.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.
There are about three times as much marines as everything else combined.
That's not a healthy pool of choices, even for the human civil war.
There should have been more non marines.
Well, we started 30k in the gaming group and the guys playing it like it much better than 40k.
The game is more balanced and more streamlined. I imagine that playing two shooty armies against each other can be boring. But I play WE. Angron, Red Butchers, and a Spartan tank. My enemy can see it coming. But usually it's too late.
Always loved Horus+his legion and their fluff, love their tactics, love the way they play, very skill dependent army. Plus I get to field what is essentially a god in mortal form. Also the SoH models are unrivaled imo
I don't like it either. Takes away a lot of the mystery of the setting. Also marines everywhere and I really think marines are overrated. No Xenos races either makes me bored. Extremely homogeneous stats is also super boring.
I got into this game for the aliens. In DoW 1 I played orks and marines and knew of nothing else in existence. I wasn't too keen with either though but fun game. Then IG got added and I was mind blown over how cool they were and didn't touch any of the other races. I thought I found my faction for life. Then they added Necrons (old lore) and Tau and I lost my gak at how cool they were. All the shooting of the IG 10x cooler. After I played the Dark Crusade expansion I seriously looked into starting 40k but it would be a very long time before I ever had cash to start a 40k army (only two years ago). Necrons were going to be my first choice but their crappy new lore turned me off. Next I considered DE but heard how hard they were to use and how bad their new dex was so I put them aside and chose Tau.
I do incidentally have a small DE army under way as a side thing. I like their style. Also if I ever do another army it would be Necrons as my third.
I think your problem OP is that your too used to the live fast die hard gameplay of 40k where units vanish in an instant. 30k is a very tactical game with a lot more going on behind the scenes than up front and on table. Armies don't just pack up and go home because they don't have a hope in heck of winning, and in these games making units good in multiple phases isn't just a total waste of time. You can actually build units for cc and not feel like your throwing points down a well hoping you get your wish granted once every ten games and have them actually mean something. You aren't spending points on tanks and dreadnaughts knowing their going to live for only a turn or two before exploding in a horrible fireball without being productive.
And when a new army comes out with rules nobody scream omg so fething broken how am I supposed to beat that and threaten to stop playing that whole army (like I have in 40k where I refuse to play eldar anymore, in fact I'd sooner throw a tournament final than play them). And you have a level playing field because on the whole every marine army has more or less the same unit options, an while there is also adeptus mecha an the solar aux they don't exactly re-invent the wheel in terms of gameplay. At their core their simple to understand that can do all sorts of fun things on the table.
To me a 30k match is a lot more fun than any game of 40k I've played since shield of Baal produced new cities of death rules.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Mind you, perhaps I'm just being old and cranky; my idea of the Heresy was forged by the artwork in 1st edition Space Marine - full of beaky Marines blowing each other up, ambushing each other in tenement blocks and stringing the corpses of their enemies up on ruined buildings, all while angsting over having to kill their old friends.
Ditto.
From a gameplay standpoint the difference isn't necessarily that different (well, other than the basic list plays like orks rather than marines).
But if you're a roleplayer at heart and have any kind emotional investment in your little plastic men, it's a massive difference from 40k:
..we were Space Marines, once united in loyalty to our Emperor. Now because of the treachery of the Warmaster, thrice accursed Horus, we battled. No quarter was asked, no quarter was given. Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear. Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elites, the chosen of humanity. Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must- for were not these men the same as ourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from humanity's realm. Finally we faced a foe worthy of fear, a mirror image ourselves and all we believed in. Is it any wonder we knew fear?
Hell, I was actually disappointed that FW gave Ultramarines a boost in resisting Fear..
ionusx wrote: I think your problem OP is that your too used to the live fast die hard gameplay of 40k where units vanish in an instant. 30k is a very tactical game with a lot more going on behind the scenes than up front and on table. Armies don't just pack up and go home because they don't have a hope in heck of winning, and in these games making units good in multiple phases isn't just a total waste of time. You can actually build units for cc and not feel like your throwing points down a well hoping you get your wish granted once every ten games and have them actually mean something. You aren't spending points on tanks and dreadnaughts knowing their going to live for only a turn or two before exploding in a horrible fireball without being productive.
And when a new army comes out with rules nobody scream omg so fething broken how am I supposed to beat that and threaten to stop playing that whole army (like I have in 40k where I refuse to play eldar anymore, in fact I'd sooner throw a tournament final than play them). And you have a level playing field because on the whole every marine army has more or less the same unit options, an while there is also adeptus mecha an the solar aux they don't exactly re-invent the wheel in terms of gameplay. At their core their simple to understand that can do all sorts of fun things on the table.
To me a 30k match is a lot more fun than any game of 40k I've played since shield of Baal produced new cities of death rules.
haven't played 30K, looked it over some. in a lot of ways it looks really good with better rules and some attempt at game balance. But, with no xeno's I just have no real interest in it. I loathe marines, so wave after wave of red marines vs green marines after black marines completly turns me off. I know theres "other stuff" besides marines in it, but its still a marine centric setting which is the thing I have always hated about 40k amped up.
BoomWolf wrote: There are about three times as much marines as everything else combined. That's not a healthy pool of choices, even for the human civil war. There should have been more non marines.
Everyone loves when their opponent brings a knight household as their "army."
Daemons,
Is there a 30K daemon army list, or is it simply marines with daemon allies?
Mechanicum,
Your first legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 1 non-marine.
Solar Auxilia,
Your second legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 2 non-marine.
and Titan Legions.
I sense you're getting desperate in making your point.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.
You have certainly proven our hypothesis incorrect: it's 18 Marine vs. 2 Non-Marine. Hooray for diversity!
The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.
Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.
Everyone loves when their opponent brings a knight household as their "army."
Daemons,
Is there a 30K daemon army list, or is it simply marines with daemon allies?
Mechanicum,
Your first legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 1 non-marine.
Solar Auxilia,
Your second legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 2 non-marine.
and Titan Legions.
I sense you're getting desperate in making your point.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.
You have certainly proven our hypothesis incorrect: it's 18 Marine vs. 2 Non-Marine. Hooray for diversity!
Then there's also the Imperial Cults/Militia list that allows for many different playstyles (will you be facing surviours of the Dark Age that are gene-crafted? Maybe it's a horde of mutated chaos zealots? It could even be a horde or drugged-up feral warriors or some other combination!).
And as you noted, 18 different legions. Sure, while they each are made up of the same basic choices they all play differently and each have unique units. Sure, the difference might not be as stark as the difference between an Eldar or an Ork army, but it's certainly more than the difference between 40k Salamanders and Imperial Fists.
BlaxicanX wrote: The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.
Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.
So, just to be clear: you're pedantically correcting the assertion that it's not "100% marines" in 30K, it's technically "90% marines". To reiterate, I have adjusted my assertions accordingly. Thank you for the correction
If you're going to treat the different legions as different armies then you should also treat the different Mechanicum lists (Taghmata, Cybernetica and Reductor) as different armies. Then there's Imperial Cults/Militia that can almost be as diverse as the Legions them selves, but for simplicity's sake we'll separate them as Imperial and Traitor/Chaos (since the Chaos Cults get access to different units in the form of Spawn and Sorcerers).
That's 75% Marines (which admittedly is still way larger than 40K's 26%), even with ignoring Knights and Daemons and the other different Militia/Cult combinations.
Edited because I can't Maths... even though I do a fething Maths degree....
I think it's cool, but I don't have any intent to get into it as of now. I just got back into the hobby and started my Tau army, so not having the ability to play those models in 30k is unappealing in that it would simply require another massive financial and time investment. So really that's what it comes down for why I don't like it as a hobby for me, it doesn't have the army I like the most, and just isn't something I have time for.
That being said, there are a lot of cool things in it, and I hear the balance in it is pretty solid. Not going to lie, I've been tempted to get some of the armies as a side project D:
Gamgee wrote: But do you ever see those armies? No. I always see space marines vs space marines in 30k games. If I see it played at all. It's not big here.
It depends on your area's meta. Personally in my area's 40k meta I see SMs as often as I do in its 30k meta. (ie. like 80% of the time, even though Space Marine flavours only make up like 26% of the entire army range)
Honeslty, of all the other armies in 40k I only ever see Tau, Eldar and Space Marine flavours, that's it. Doesn't mean that DE, Orks, IG, SoB, Inq, MT, Ad Mech, Necrons, etc. can be discounted from 40k because of it, though.
If the argument is that you think 30k is lame because "too many marines", then you dont really have much of an argument at all IMO, its in fact the games chief selling point. If you cant understand why the inclusion of too many xenos/nonmarine factions would be damaging to balance and gameplay (like it has been for 40k) then I question your ability to critically analyze the game at all.
Also the comment about homogenous stats being boring is mystifying to me, I cant say I ever encountered someone who was excited by the fact that a unit had a different statline from another, particularly given how just about everything in 40k more or less boils down to 1 of 3 basic statlines (marine, human, or eldar) with a single modifier to change it to something else (i.e. human statline +1T is ork, +1S is kroot, -1I is Tau, etc.)
Then there's also the Imperial Cults/Militia list that allows for many different playstyles (will you be facing surviours of the Dark Age that are gene-crafted? Maybe it's a horde of mutated chaos zealots? It could even be a horde or drugged-up feral warriors or some other combination!).
And as you noted, 18 different legions. Sure, while they each are made up of the same basic choices they all play differently and each have unique units. Sure, the difference might not be as stark as the difference between an Eldar or an Ork army, but it's certainly more than the difference between 40k Salamanders and Imperial Fists.
Don't know about you, but I don't even count 40k salamanders and IF as separate armies and more than I count MoN and MoS marines as different armies. (in fact, they are even less separate, at least the marks have a unique unit each)
I DO count the DA, the SW and the BA as separate from codex marines though.
chaos0xomega wrote: If the argument is that you think 30k is lame because "too many marines", then you dont really have much of an argument at all IMO, its in fact the games chief selling point. If you cant understand why the inclusion of too many xenos/nonmarine factions would be damaging to balance and gameplay (like it has been for 40k) then I question your ability to critically analyze the game at all.
Also the comment about homogenous stats being boring is mystifying to me, I cant say I ever encountered someone who was excited by the fact that a unit had a different statline from another, particularly given how just about everything in 40k more or less boils down to 1 of 3 basic statlines (marine, human, or eldar) with a single modifier to change it to something else (i.e. human statline +1T is ork, +1S is kroot, -1I is Tau, etc.)
That minor difference in stats, is pushing the armies apart, even a bit.
That army strike first in CC, the other has a better chance to survive a shot, the third hits harder. even before going to wargear, these tiny differences matter in the big picture.
And than you get the far greater diversity in unit types, armored units, weapon selection, etc piles on top of it.
In 30k, as its all (practically) marines, it boils down to weapon selection from a minor list of marine choices. everyone has the same goals, the same battle plan, and the same methods of operation in the end of the day. because they are all good at about the same things. sure, one is a bit more CC oriented, the other a bit more sneaky-but in the end? everyone does the same thing.
@the_armyman - If my thallax were able to feel emotions they would be offended by your ignorance of them and their stats! Summing up the mechanicum to one being 'one list' is contrite twaddle; my taghmata can drown your army in blobs of tech-thralls which respawn on a 5+ when destroyed, i can spam monstorus creatures as scoring troops using legio cybernetica and i can field an army of tanks which score in your DZ and become obsec in malestrom missions as the Ordo Reductor
You obviously haven't played 30k - i've got all the books and the diversity is boggling!
the similarity of stats between marines just makes you realize how potent the USR's really are - not much gets 'fearless' so the 'stubborn' rule becomes invaluable.
Marines play very differently since there is no 'and they shall know no fear' rule - they may take 25% casualties in a phase and just run off!
And If you best them in combat you can sweeping advance them!
Legion marines are nothing like 'chapter' marines and the change in flavour between them is enough to completely change the strategy you use - my mate plays emperors children and his guys move an extra d3 when assaulting and can always regroup regardless of casualties. The effect of that is his guys get to combat at much greater range than other marines and his 2 man remnants of a squad can still lock a much larger squad in combat. That changes how you play!
I'm not willing to dedicate the time nessecary to show you the extent of the differences between each list, but i'm sure that you'd regard 'dark eldar', 'kraftworld eldar' and 'eldar corsairs' as 'seperate armies' - the difference between legion factions is very much like that.
I had a thought - maybe you're just not cut out for 30k?
If you aren't 'getting' the differences then maybe 40kis all you need.
Mechanicum is my creed and the Ordo Reductor is my faction - The bringers of Blessed Ruin.
Sadly 30k is pretty lame, it is a step down from 40k . People complain that their men are better then mine... Well not now cause your all the same and to make it not look like we just added 12new space marine codexes like in 40k we will make the differences even smaller. This guy can pee left and this one right.......... mind blown.
You want perfect balance play chess, you want randomness best we can simulate complain cause it not your guys buffed lol then we get this train wreck and the contemptor with its huge leg join to shoot and then watch as its usles arms sworl in circles... 30k years later and they still cant build something that can stand up with out help.
OgreChubbs wrote: Sadly 30k is pretty lame, it is a step down from 40k . People complain that their men are better then mine... Well not now cause your all the same and to make it not look like we just added 12new space marine codexes like in 40k we will make the differences even smaller. This guy can pee left and this one right.......... mind blown.
You want perfect balance play chess, you want randomness best we can simulate complain cause it not your guys buffed lol then we get this train wreck and the contemptor with its huge leg join to shoot and then watch as its usles arms sworl in circles... 30k years later and they still cant build something that can stand up with out help.
It's a step down in what, exactly? Your post is pretty hard to understand. It's worse because the Contemptor has a leg that's easy to shoot..?
If you aren't interested in marines it makes plenty of sense that you wouldn't be interested in HH, since you know, the whole story is the marines turning on each other.
For the record I've seen plenty of mechanicum being played, still haven't seen an SA army yet though.
chaos0xomega wrote: FW has said they have no intention of desire of ever doing xenos in 30k because it would defeat the theme of the game, etc. They also said if you do want to play xenos you can can use your 40k army, though they neither recommend nor endose you doing so as they arent balanced against one another.
And I heard the opposite. In the beginning it was seen as a separate expansion, but now it works. And unless you play it or try it regularly, you won't agree. Anything sub 2,500 points 40k factions will normally trump a 30k one.
As one who doesn't play Marines, I basically am out of 30K. I know some people who are REALLY into the histoyr of the Chapters and so for them its probably hog heaven. I think this comes down to whether or not you've read a loto f the books and such. If you have't, 30K is just another game of 40K more or less, and from that viewpoint, boring. But if you're into the history? Its probably going to make the fanboi in you flip out.
"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"
Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.
Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)
Jancoran wrote: As one who doesn't play Marines, I basically am out of 30K. I know some people who are REALLY into the histoyr of the Chapters and so for them its probably hog heaven. I think this comes down to whether or not you've read a loto f the books and such. If you have't, 30K is just another game of 40K more or less, and from that viewpoint, boring. But if you're into the history? Its probably going to make the fanboi in you flip out.
If AoS taught us anything it is the fluff doesnt matter just make gak up as you go.
BlaxicanX wrote: The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.
Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.
So, just to be clear: you're pedantically correcting the assertion that it's not "100% marines" in 30K, it's technically "90% marines". To reiterate, I have adjusted my assertions accordingly. Thank you for the correction
Pointing out that you literally were arguing against an assertion that was never made nor implied is "pedantic"?
Jimsolo wrote: I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.
"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"
Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.
Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)
It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.
SirDonlad wrote: @the_armyman - If my thallax were able to feel emotions they would be offended by your ignorance of them and their stats! Summing up the mechanicum to one being 'one list' is contrite twaddle; my taghmata can drown your army in blobs of tech-thralls which respawn on a 5+ when destroyed, i can spam monstorus creatures as scoring troops using legio cybernetica and i can field an army of tanks which score in your DZ and become obsec in malestrom missions as the Ordo Reductor
You obviously haven't played 30k - i've got all the books and the diversity is boggling!
the similarity of stats between marines just makes you realize how potent the USR's really are - not much gets 'fearless' so the 'stubborn' rule becomes invaluable.
Marines play very differently since there is no 'and they shall know no fear' rule - they may take 25% casualties in a phase and just run off!
And If you best them in combat you can sweeping advance them!
Legion marines are nothing like 'chapter' marines and the change in flavour between them is enough to completely change the strategy you use - my mate plays emperors children and his guys move an extra d3 when assaulting and can always regroup regardless of casualties. The effect of that is his guys get to combat at much greater range than other marines and his 2 man remnants of a squad can still lock a much larger squad in combat. That changes how you play!
I'm not willing to dedicate the time nessecary to show you the extent of the differences between each list, but i'm sure that you'd regard 'dark eldar', 'kraftworld eldar' and 'eldar corsairs' as 'seperate armies' - the difference between legion factions is very much like that.
I had a thought - maybe you're just not cut out for 30k?
If you aren't 'getting' the differences then maybe 40kis all you need.
Mechanicum is my creed and the Ordo Reductor is my faction - The bringers of Blessed Ruin.
Have you not read my posts? I've made the point that it's 18 different marine armies. But, they're still mostly WS4, BS4, T4, S4, I4, 3+Sv analogs. All of them.
Not that you're biased or anything, right? The guy with the Ordo Reductor avatar and creates Ordo Reductor threads. I have read the first 4 books of the HH heresy, and saying the three different Mechanicum lists are completely unique is being generous. I can take an IG Armored Company list from IA1 or I can run from the IG codex two Tank Commanders, two squads of Vets in Chimeras, and the rest of my list as LR Squadrons. There's not a whole lot of mechanical difference between the two lists. Your example of Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is a terrible example, and not at all what I would consider identical armies in form or function.
But I'm sure you'll disagree and the thread will be dragged on trying to explain the nuances of list building in 30K, rather than just admitting that army diversity in 30K is pretty narrow. Or maybe you'll stick to your word and NOT take the time to explain. TBH, that would be awesome
To be honest, I'm not sure to what to think of 30k. Some of the novels are just awesome and when I read them I want to start a 30k army, then I realize it'd just be basically building an army like my Ultramarines, just with different looking armor and "chapter" tactics. I would gladly take some 30k units in my 40k Space Marines (thank you Imperial Armour!), but I think I would rather go start Dark Eldar and just throw some 30k stuff in my Marines rather than start a 30k army. That's just me though.
What I have to say as already been largely said but I shall say it anyway:
30K is bland. It is boring. Unless you have a massive one for Marines you might as well not bother as thusfar we have:
flavour of Marines #1
flavour of marines #2
flavour of marines #3
flavour of marines #4
flavour of marines #5
flavour of marines #6
flavour of marines #7
flavour of marines #8
flavour of marines #9
flavour of marines #10
flavour of marines #11
flavour of marines #12
flavour of marines #13
flavour of marines #14
flavour of marines #15
flavour of marines #16
flavour of marines #17
flavour of marines #18
Mechanicum #1
Slightly different mechanicum #2
Not quite the same mechanicum #3
Imperial Guard whom have been slightly buffed but still get gakked on by everyone else
So, out of 22 factions - allowing for the pedantic insisting that there are notable differences betwixt the three Mechaincum flavours but ignoring Knights and Titans as thye do not really count (for very obvious reasons) - there are a grand total of four non Marine factions.
I rest my case.
If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...
chaos0xomega wrote: If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...
Flames of War also has jitterbug Tiger tanks. No, thanks.
the_Armyman wrote: Your example of Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar is a terrible example, and not at all what I would consider identical armies in form or function.
Thats exactly my point - they all have "broadly the same stats" but don't play anything like each other.
It's like Elysians, DKoK, and astra militarum - they're all imperial guard, yet are very different armies.
Even if you're playing marines vs marines; by the time you include weapons, wargear and special rules the statlines have changed.
Hey, master of ordinance, you're missing out the cults/militia lists!
chaos0xomega wrote: If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...
See, the condescension is unnecessary. You can claim you play a different game, but you don't. Last time I checked, you still use the same rulebook as us "kiddies" use in 40K. It's sorta odd thinking that someone claims the high ground just because their man-dollies cost more than mine. To the vast majority of humans who don't participate in our hobby, that just makes you more of a fool, amirite?
I think i agree with you on the knights, i saw the knights as something you'd take against another knight houshold, the marine matchup would be a one-off challenge type affair for me - loads of objectives and set in a city with stuff from 'cities of death' shoehorned in.
Jimsolo wrote: I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.
"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"
Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.
Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)
It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.
Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)
So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.
Jimsolo wrote: I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.
"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"
Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.
Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)
It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.
Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)
So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.
Which would be a good point except clearly the Heresy stuff has been doing very well so it's hardly been a bad business move. Anyway, they're not ignoring any player base, it's almost a new game, especially the way they had it originally where it wasn't meant to be played vs 40k, so you either played it or you didn't. It's not like everyone who plays Space Marines would also play heresy, or anyone who doesn't play SM wouldn't. It's not that cut and dry. I pretty much hate SM in 40k but I love the Heresy.
Roll lots and lots of dice, person with above average rolls wins, same reason 40k isn't my cup of tea. Beautiful models though, seems to be more about the aesthetic than the gameplay.
Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.)
Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).
Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.
I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).
Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.
I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).
Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.
I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?
Games Workshop = Forge World. Same company, money goes to the same place. 30k for me is for 40k vets angry at GW and who don't want to give them their money, but still love the background. Buying FW allows them to convince themselves it's sticking it to GW.
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).
Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.
I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?
Games Workshop = Forge World. Same company, money goes to the same place. 30k for me is for 40k vets angry at GW and who don't want to give them their money, but still love the background. Buying FW allows them to convince themselves it's sticking it to GW.
I think it's more rewarding good behaviour rather than being convinced they're sticking it to Games Workshop.
I think i agree with you on the knights, i saw the knights as something you'd take against another knight houshold, the marine matchup would be a one-off challenge type affair for me - loads of objectives and set in a city with stuff from 'cities of death' shoehorned in.
yup. Lord of the ruinstorm is a balancing factor between "40k daemons" and the power level of most 30k lists.
Marines can do nasty things to knights - but yeah, ultimately you're going to have to play the mission.
Anyone who plays 40k k ows that space marines are their flagship, and what got the game off the ground. Selling marines keeps them in business. If you play 40k, chances are you enjoy marines or the storyline at minimum. This is what makes 30k great. You get to play fluff that leads into 40k and shows why 40k is what it is today.
If the 30k legions never fell, unified they would have crushed all xenos and you would not have them as armies to play.
I enjoy 40k, but it has massive cheese and power/balance issues. 30k is balanced, different, and fun. Once played often you learn the differences and it really is a balanced, mature 40k.
Don't like it? Don't play it and stay out of our leagues. Want to play it or like marines/imperial armies? Come on down and get some great games in with us.
Hate marines? Well you are in the small minority then. Realize that gw is not going to market heavily to you then. Sorry but gw is mostly about marines
Jimsolo wrote: I play Marines, and still don't like 30k.
"You know that faction who's detractors say spoils the game by making it too same-y? Let's make a game out of JUST that faction!"
Lol. That being said, I am primarily a Dark Eldar player, and there's never ever ever going to be any support for my main army in 30k, which definitely plays into my feelings on it. I also REALLY don't like most of the models that have come out for it.
Basically, as I write this I realize I have nothing positive to say about 30k. (Oooh, one thing! Volkite weapons being a thing made it easier for me to convert plasma gun retinue members for my Inquisition. But that's it.)
It's not like they invented 30k now though, it's been a big part of the background for a long time. So 'let's make a game out of just the faction that makes the game samey' isn't really accurate, so much as 'let's make a game out of this huge part of our background who's novels have been selling incredibly well'.
Or lets ignore 1/2 our player base so they don't bother with something new we make. (I don't know if the player base is 50% space marine but I hope my idea comes across)
So way to neglect 50% or 75% or even 25% of sales.
Which would be a good point except clearly the Heresy stuff has been doing very well so it's hardly been a bad business move. Anyway, they're not ignoring any player base, it's almost a new game, especially the way they had it originally where it wasn't meant to be played vs 40k, so you either played it or you didn't. It's not like everyone who plays Space Marines would also play heresy, or anyone who doesn't play SM wouldn't. It's not that cut and dry. I pretty much hate SM in 40k but I love the Heresy.
When you say Heresy has been selling well, do you mean by Forge World or Battle of Calth?
ImAGeek wrote: Well I meant FW but Calth seems to have done pretty well too
Thing is, isn't Forge World a niche within a nice? Taking a big chance with that By that I mean taking a niche within a niche and make it a full fledge product for everyone. Then again Age of Sigmar seemed to do pretty well in it's first or two weeks, so time will tell to see where BoC goes. Depending on your area AoS is either doing really well or doing very poorly. I guess same thing can be for BoC. Do well great now, but after mostly everyone bought the box just for the minis, will it continue as a game? Just look at that assassin game (sorry forgot the name). Thing is BoC is a core product, so will see how it goes.
For me, I am tired of Space Marines. Tired of Space Marines in a Fantasy setting so now I can't get excited for Space Marines in a 30K setting. If this was done before AoS then maybe I could like it (for the price of $180 Canadian, I can't get excited for it) but now, I am just Space Marined out.
chaos0xomega wrote: If you cannot fathom the huge effects on gameplay that a subtle difference in rules has, then please stay in the kiddie pool of 40k and let the adults enjoy 30k. I know you might have difficulty understanding it, but you dont actually need hugely different factions to have hige differences in gameplay. Hell, most wargames have pretty much identical statlines across factions, like flames of war...
See, the condescension is unnecessary. You can claim you play a different game, but you don't. Last time I checked, you still use the same rulebook as us "kiddies" use in 40K. It's sorta odd thinking that someone claims the high ground just because their man-dollies cost more than mine. To the vast majority of humans who don't participate in our hobby, that just makes you more of a fool, amirite?
The core rules have a lot in common, yes, but they actually arent entirely identical, and many of the USRs are actually different, even when using the same name. In any case, it is and always has been the army lists that made the game, the 30k ones are a cut above the 40k ones. Also, considering that my only 30k purchases to date have been copies of betrayal at calth, my man dollies actually probably cost less than yours did.
Also in case there is any confusion, as far as 40k is concerned I was not (past tense because I quit the game some time ago) a marine player. I flirted with the idea, but my factions were Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark eldar, and Daemons in that order.
The core rules are the same...pretty simple that. We both use the 7th Edition BRB since we are the same game....
Some USRs are different, I'll give you that.
30k armies are only 'a cut above the rest' when you get higher than 2k points. At the normal 1850 points they are definitely not. I play 30k Night Lords and will freely admit it. Units/Upgrades/Fancy Toys/LoWs...all pretty hard to get or achieve below 2k (especially since LoWs can't be taken then...and then have to be less than 25%).
We have way different 'chapter tactics' called Rites of War. Makes each Legion play totally different than the others. And considering most things in this game are T3/T4...why are we splitting hairs?
And 30k isn't new...........been around for awhile...
Just to throw in - I like the history aspect of it. The battles feel more like they matter, even though I know how they play out in the end (Spoiler: the Battle of Terra doesn't go well). Endless and constant war gets boring because the motivations of chaos are "create chaos" and the Imperium is "defeat chaos", rather than something more specific I can imagine key battles around. The Black Crusades hit on this, but when was the last time those were discussed/developed.
Personally, 30k is a struggle. Half the legions decided they hated their Emperor enough to bring him down, and the big players are out and swinging, with goals and motivations. Everything is more grand because they have a goal in mind. I don;t know, 40k has become monotonous.
BUT i agree with the OP; they give up the grimdark/hopeless aesthetic for a tragic/dramatic one. I personally like it more.
Also my two cents is that Xenos in 30k ruin that theme. They don't contribute to the tragedy, fluff wise. Rules wise, I cant wait to test my Iron Warrior wall on 1000 Ork Boyz...
Is it worth pointing out to the people mixing 30k with 40k armies that 30k's scoring is fundamentally different than 40k? I don't have a problem with a 30k army facing off against an ork army, but if literally every model in the ork army scored and the troops hand objective secured while the 30k army, only troops scored, everything else could only contest, including dedicated transport chosen for troops, even with orks less than stellar book, it's not a fair fight.
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
What's your opinion on 30k ?
The pros for 30k:
Very well balanced internally.
Very good at allowing internal diversity ad nauseum (every single SM Legion can play every SM tactic effectively [assault, mid-range, long-range, etc])
Wonderful character development for the factions (every Legion covered so far has more attention and effort put into it than some 40k Codices) so it feels like you're actually playing your army.
Excellent independent units for each army that have enough flavor to be different without completely overwhelming the others (the special terminators, etc).
The cons for 30k:
The diversity is superficial. A few different special rules, a few different units, a different color scheme and a different set of bitz used to convert your army. Yes, the game is diverse, but you're still playing an army of T4, 3+ armor warriors with str 4, ap5 bolters. The Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus and Auxilia are significantly diverse armies, but compared to the 18 Legions as separate factions then the outliers are outnumbered 1-6. In terms of popularity the Legions outweigh the Knights, AM and Auxilia fans manifold.
From a modelling perspective 30k is for a degree of conversion, sculpting, and painting that goes above and beyond basic 40k table-top quality. This may be considered a pro for some (I would personally consider it a pro but list it as a con for my next point).
From a price perspective 30k is to 40k what 40k is to real-time strategy games. It is the next tier above 40k in terms of availability, quality, and skill requirement. This makes the game almost intrinsically elitist to an outsider, creating an atmosphere of a "clique within a clique." It's as if someone went to a dozen museums, bought their most prized possessions (which were the capstone of an exhibit) and shoved those possessions into one uber museum which only the wealthy or influencial can afford to enter and then found an even bigger capstone for that exhibit. 30k combines all of Forgeworld's various vehicles, units, and artillery into a cohesive army. The equipment and capability of Forgeworld's models were always a tier above 40k and thus were a sparse but significant capstone to an army. Suddenly you have an entire army made-up of capstones, with an even bigger uber-capstone on top: the Primarchs. It's like Escalation all over again. The issue is not that the game is unbalanced. The issue is that the game is hard to swallow (not just because the soldiers are made of resin ) from a gamer's perspective.
From a painting perspective 30k is very limited. The color-schemes of the various Legions are extremely well-known, heavily established in lore, and are meant to be instantly recognizeable to the extent that if your army doesn't appear in a classic 30k color-scheme (once again, Knights, AM and Auxilia as the exceptions), you'll be criticized perhaps silently or vocally. I saw a chap on BnC get repeatedly told not to paint his 30k Thousand Sons blue. He says that it's what brought him to playing Thousand Sons in the first place, his love of the color scheme. The criticisms were repeated and he eventually gave in. I know this is anecdotal, but it represents a very real problem. How can I paint my Alpha Legion to look different from yours other than using a slightly different shade of blue or green?
TLR. Pros: lots of internal balance, diversity, and interesting interactions.
Cons: it's a clique within a clique and is presented as an even more elitist game than Warhammer 40k (crucial point: appearance versus reality).
EDIT: My point here is to argue why the game is having trouble sticking to some players. I have trouble getting into it despite being pressured by my immediate community to do so.
The good part of the Alpha Legion, is the different shades of blue are allowed. Who knows what they're up to, who's command they're under, that influences the heraldry within the heraldy, so my AL can be greener than yours but still AL.
As can many of the legions, the scope for changing up the heraldry is only limited by what nonsense fluff you can come up with to give you remit to paint them non standard, fighting against such an alien, wearing this mark due to serving as part of somepersons campaign. Being involved in such a battle, etc etc ad nauseum.
For instance I'm going to be painting my RG like the diagonal alt colourscheme for the black legion (obviously more Raven Guardy). My Alpha's are going slightly bronzed along with the mismatching of tourquise that I mix as I got Armillus Dynat recently and his thing is adding a bit of bronze to places.
BlaxicanX wrote: The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.
Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.
You do realize you just made a straw man argument, right? Or did you actually assume he literally meant non Marine armies were not an option? If so, you pretty clearly misread the context of the statement. If it helps, what he was implying was that Marine on Marine is so prevelant that it might as well be a game entirely lacking in other options due to the inbuilt lack of diversity.
Hearing some of these comments makes me think of explaining the differences with cars, guns, handy man stuff - you eventually get that response that attempts to generalize it, or reduce things beyond simplification.
For example, the common theme with such a question sounds like: -insert sharp sigh- 'isn't it just the same as all the others??'
For the others stating the issue with a lack of diversity. Have you ever heard of too much diversity? Have you ever thought that keeping it simple has its own charm/convenience?
ServiceGames wrote: Xenos were a large part of 30K as a whole. Some of them we haven't seen yet I don't think (waiting on a full Megarachnids army to show up).
The 30K Universe is set up predominantly around Space Marines fighting humans who don't want to conform to the emperor's ways. So, the legions just go out and kill all of them and bring the planet into compliance.
All that said, yes, right now, 30K is just a Space Marine vs. Space Marine game, but it's only a very, very small sample (including all of the FW models + Betrayal at Calth). If BaC sells well and people start wanting to play 30K a good bit, I'm expecting to see the Horus Heresy tabletop rulebooks showing up under GW's logo and being sold on GW's website and at GW shops. And, I'm pretty sure they won't limit it just to space marines. I have a feeling they are going to bring out all the Xenos that were encountered during the time of the Horus Heresy as well.
SG
Now this is what I'm waiting for. The universe of 30K was full of nameless xenos that ate ripe for exterminatis. I'd be a cannon breaker anyway. It's my game and I'm playing the way I want. Fun is the key and I will use what ever I want. Just my my way.
Tamwulf wrote: I like that 30K is a tragedy. It's the time of Legends striding through the galaxy and grinding all opposition under foot, and just on the eve of Ultimate Victory, treachery at Isstvan. The once great Empire of Humanity ripped apart by civil war. You get to see the roots of 40K and where the Space Marine Chapters came from. Pretty exciting stuff to me!
I'd just like to point out that they weren't even close to Ultimate Victory. With pretty much every war mentioned against Xenos or Humans in the HH series taking at least a year, you would need, at a minimum, 555,555 years in order to conquer every star in the entire Milky Way galaxy (this is assuming that there are 100 Expeditionary Fleets for each Legion, and it's going off of the low-end of estimates, 100 billion, rather than 400 billion, at the high end). 200 years is only enough time to conquer 360,000 Solar Systems (and this is assuming that no war takes longer than a year), going off of my estimate of a total of 1800 Expeditionary Fleets. Considering the fact that the IoM is only estimated at owning a million planets, galaxy-wide, that would mean that 740,000 planets were conquered during the Forging (the period of time in which Humanity actually became the dominant force in the Galaxy), which was a period of 3000(?) years or so, maybe 2k years. Regardless, 200 years isn't even close to sufficient time.
At this point there's just so much more variation with the marines than in the whole Eldar lineup. (Oh boy. More under-detailed pointy headed infantry and titans, and more goofy looking vehicles. Joy.)
And maybe it's me but all of it is succinct.
Like the mini-Dreadnought sized Demonic Gal Vorbak (Some of the best infantry models ever in my opinion), to the goddamn laughing mad Cataphractii armored Red Butchers. Two very distinct looks.
Vehicles too.
Compare the beefy beauty of a gunship that is the Fire Raptor to a Vendetta.
Or the sexy ass tanks of Eldar tears whose name escapes me.
As long as the porn is diverse, and alluring who cares?
Tamwulf wrote: I like that 30K is a tragedy. It's the time of Legends striding through the galaxy and grinding all opposition under foot, and just on the eve of Ultimate Victory, treachery at Isstvan. The once great Empire of Humanity ripped apart by civil war. You get to see the roots of 40K and where the Space Marine Chapters came from. Pretty exciting stuff to me!
I'd just like to point out that they weren't even close to Ultimate Victory. With pretty much every war mentioned against Xenos or Humans in the HH series taking at least a year, you would need, at a minimum, 555,555 years in order to conquer every star in the entire Milky Way galaxy (this is assuming that there are 100 Expeditionary Fleets for each Legion, and it's going off of the low-end of estimates, 100 billion, rather than 400 billion, at the high end). 200 years is only enough time to conquer 360,000 Solar Systems (and this is assuming that no war takes longer than a year), going off of my estimate of a total of 1800 Expeditionary Fleets. Considering the fact that the IoM is only estimated at owning a million planets, galaxy-wide, that would mean that 740,000 planets were conquered during the Forging (the period of time in which Humanity actually became the dominant force in the Galaxy), which was a period of 3000(?) years or so, maybe 2k years. Regardless, 200 years isn't even close to sufficient time.
Dude very few habitable planets actually have developed life, and almost none of that developed life stands a snowballs chance in hell against the 8ft supermen with grenade launching assault rifles.
It may have been another 1000 years at most.
Okay. See. I've read a lot of the arguments here admittedly not all of them so if I have missed something that somebody said here that mirrors my own comment well I apologize.
One thing that a lot of people seem to miss is that there is a big big difference between the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, yes the Horus Heresy is a great deal about marine vs marine brother vs brother and so on. Yes there is diversity through the 18 different legions that do play as differently or similarly as you want them to, as well as the Mechanicum, Solar Auxillera, Knights, Titan Legions, militias, and now even demons. I personally I've even seen people starting to use the Imperial Guard as the regular standing Imperial Army and it's worked out rather well.
Then we take a few steps back to the Great Crusade, now while there are xenos races that appear in their time throughout the Horus Heresy, the great bulk of them were encountered throughout the Great Crusade itself. You saw large encounters between Eldar, Orks, "new" races like the Megarachnids and the Interex and so on. And this is where in my opinion 30k and 40k meet, it gives you the chance to pull out all of the 40k races and slap them straight into a 30k fight with a little imagination and a little storytelling they all tend to fit perfectly.
Some examples that we come up with all really as follows.
Orks.. they're Orks.. no explanation needed.. Ullanor is a good campaign to follow if you have a lot of ork players though.
Eldar and Dark Eldar (cus yes The dark Eldar were around.. mostly) Random encounters. Their technology hasn't changed much since the Great Crusade til "now" and they work really well if you follow the Age of Darkness Force org.
Tau do a little research and you can find places to wiggle them in if you really want, for example a few months back while in a Great Crusade campaign game we had our Tau player from the 40k group play as the Interex. Which to us seemed like a perfect fit. High tech, and "empire-ish" race.
Likewise the Nids made a great stand in for The Megarachnids or Bizarre alien race 803-9.
Basically I suppose my point in all of this is while The Horus Heresy itself does tend to focus on marine vs marine and for a lot of people that may seem to be rather rigid and restricting, and believe me I get that, if you take a few steps back in the setting to the actual Great Crusade then things change. You fall back into an open-ended time of myth legend and imagination, there is a darkness on the horizon is that in the back of your mind you know is the Horus Heresy and what falls after that, but in the now you have what is basically an open canvas to manufacture whatever events you want because quite frankly during that time it is a completely open galaxy with an endless supply of possible enemies to fight against in that case the only limit really is whatever you can think up.
BlaxicanX wrote: The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.
Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.
You do realize you just made a straw man argument, right? Or did you actually assume he literally meant non Marine armies were not an option? If so, you pretty clearly misread the context of the statement. If it helps, what he was implying was that Marine on Marine is so prevelant that it might as well be a game entirely lacking in other options due to the inbuilt lack of diversity.
You have no idea what he is or isn't implying. I take posts at face value- if he feels that his assertions shouldn't be taken literally then he's free to clarify.
I find 40K Marines to be as bland as it gets, I am exclusively a Xenos player (various flavours of Eldar and Tyranids with a little interest in Tau, Daemons and Necrons) and have no interest in ever taking up any of the IoM factions other than AdMech (though I might consider Sisters of Battle should they ever get plastic models). But, there's some thing very appealing to me about the 30K Marines, Forgeworld resin helps here quite a bit but I like the Betrayal at Calth plastic as well, the vehicles in particular look much better than the Citadel vehicles and though I could use them in 40K, since I've already bought the Crusade red book to get their rules why on earth wouldn't I want to use the 30K rules for Marines as well?
There is also nothing to stop me from using a 30K army against a 40K army or vice versa should my opponent agree to a game, though of course balance is non existent in the more standard 40K sized games of 1500 to 1850pts since 40K works best at MSU whilst 30K is very much all about maxing out the units which cost a lot more at base. Larger games of 2000pts+ become far more interesting though.
rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote: Not sure what this talk of existing player base is about, because 30k is a new game for it's own TARGETED AUDIENCE (Adults, long time players, fans of fluff, banana-clip missile launcher lovers.).
Forgeworld are not ridding themselves of anyone important in their eyes, those who don't buy their products are not accounted for.
I hate to be pretencious but honestly, I'd rather stick with a consistent, balanced game that recieves frequent FAQ's, book releases, problem adressing (i.e Old Legions being buffed, some might yell Power Creep but it's not, It's called testing the market and improving the game, think of it like Patch Updates on a video game.) and consistently good looking miniatures across their whole line than a deliberately money-grubbing company with inconsistent rules, miniatures, paint systems and £20 FOR A PAIR OF CLIPPERS? WHAT!?
Games Workshop = Forge World. Same company, money goes to the same place. 30k for me is for 40k vets angry at GW and who don't want to give them their money, but still love the background. Buying FW allows them to convince themselves it's sticking it to GW.
Yep, people spending money on FW over GW hasn't changed anything. Totally ineffectual.
Except for making the HH line so popular GW had to put out a box full of (relatively)cheap plastic models so FW could even hope to keep expanding the range given the sheer volume of resin they've been shifting.
And except for very likely being one of the big reasons behind the return of Specialist Games being produced by a team with FW guys at the helm.
But aye, sure, what have the Romans ever done for us etc.
I think the use of the term '30k' is misleading here.
People complain about the lack of diversity in '30k' because as we have established most things are indeed marines (i know there are others and it's all different but thats irrelevant to my point). What you are really complaining about is the HH, the only conflict we have been provided rules for, and you are entirely correct it is mostly marines but that was the entire point. The setting of '30k' is much wider than this and I personally just use the xenos rules quite happily and it has worked very well for 30k so far.
I just feel that a lot of the people here are arguing different things; HH vs 40k, and 30k vs 40k, which are very different things which is why this conversation keeps going in circles
Warzoner wrote: Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.
What's your opinion on 30k ?
30k caters more to a more mature gamer, someone who loves the game more than playing a game he/she needs to win at.
Even though the game is set in the future, 30k is more a historical game. It isn't really a competitive game. Though you can find people who will WAAC their lists, the majority of 30k gamers are more interested in their legions historical aspects, units used during the era and play campaign games or recreat battle of the 30k universe.
The 30k traitor marines weren't chaosified as of yet in the 30k. The closest you're gonna get is Word Bearers.
Themetically, you're going to find more folks who want their 30k marines to look how they looked pre-heresy.
ServiceGames wrote: Xenos were a large part of 30K as a whole. Some of them we haven't seen yet I don't think (waiting on a full Megarachnids army to show up).
The 30K Universe is set up predominantly around Space Marines fighting humans who don't want to conform to the emperor's ways. So, the legions just go out and kill all of them and bring the planet into compliance.
All that said, yes, right now, 30K is just a Space Marine vs. Space Marine game, but it's only a very, very small sample (including all of the FW models + Betrayal at Calth). If BaC sells well and people start wanting to play 30K a good bit, I'm expecting to see the Horus Heresy tabletop rulebooks showing up under GW's logo and being sold on GW's website and at GW shops. And, I'm pretty sure they won't limit it just to space marines. I have a feeling they are going to bring out all the Xenos that were encountered during the time of the Horus Heresy as well.
SG
Now this is what I'm waiting for. The universe of 30K was full of nameless xenos that ate ripe for exterminatis. I'd be a cannon breaker anyway. It's my game and I'm playing the way I want. Fun is the key and I will use what ever I want. Just my my way.
But this isn't just 30k, it's the civil war of the Horus Heresy. It's not about xenos
I like a lot of the units for the sheer number of alternative army builds it gives to a space marine player like myself. Forge world have overall done a great job.
On the other hand I dislike the low tech / archaic aesthetic of some of 30k imperial units. Grey Knight helms have just the right amount historical design influence while still looking great, as do a lot of the aspects of older power armour suits, but as for things like Roman-style horserhair helms, leather tassels and tabards, I think they look plain silly on a warrior of the future. It just doesn't add up to the tech of the rest of the universe. I find it hard to believe that something as techy looking as a Fire Raptor is flying about while there's marines wearing bits of chainmail for the sheer crack of it and Ad Mech tanks that look like antique gearboxes with guns slapped onto them. Just doesn't do it for me.
thegreatchimp wrote: I like a lot of the units for the sheer number of alternative army builds it gives to a space marine player like myself. Forge world have overall done a great job.
On the other hand I dislike the low tech / archaic aesthetic of some of 30k imperial units. Grey Knight helms have just the right amount historical design influence while still looking great, as do a lot of the aspects of older power armour suits, but as for things like Roman-style horserhair helms, leather tassels and tabards, I think they look plain silly on a warrior of the future. It just doesn't add up to the tech of the rest of the universe. I find it hard to believe that something as techy looking as a Fire Raptor is flying about while there's marines wearing buts of chainmail for the sheer crack of it and Ad Mech tanks that look like antique gearboxes with guns slapped onto them. Just doesn't do it for me.
See, I love this aesthetic. The Admech tanks are energy shielded, and having them be all exposed parts and no armour drives the point home that they are fast and highly mobile while being well-shielded. That makes me think high tech. Imagine how fast an Abrams would be if you replaced its armor with shield generators!
And the leather/chain mail thing I think shows the decadence and pride of the early legions. "Look at me; I am so good at combat I can both afford and wear leather and it doesn't get scuffed or torn "
After reading this thread im considering giving it a go, but how is the balance between the legions? Is the balance as close as it should/Could or are some of the legions stronger?
Balance is not perfect. Foot World Eaters are going to have a tough time against artillery Iron Warriors. However, it is nowhere as bad as what you'd find in 40k. There are no Eldar. There are no Necrons. There are no Tau. LoW has a number of limitations, such as being available only in 2000+ matches, can be no more than 25% of your points, and give additional victory points to your enemy when slain.
on; you just don't see them often because 100pts of your basic troops costs 70 pounds.
R. Pros: lots of internal balance, diversity, and interesting interactions.
