Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
Can anyone please enlighten us?
We had to make some assumptions when it came to the Trade Price offered by GW on their products (we assumed 30% lower than RRRP since other FLGS regularly offer 25% off) but even assuming this discount and a fairly unsustainable turnover (over 20,000 GBP per month) we still could not get the figures to work out.
MTG is the big money maker for most shops. Even a fishing bait store and yoga studio in my area host Friday night magic. Good luck if you don't plan on hosting magic events
As said, MtG. Which is why I personally feel that the FLGS is going to go away eventually, and the gaming club is going to return to replace it. A club has you pay dues or similar to rent a space for play, so it's much more of a social event than going to a store that needs you to buy things there to stay open. I just don't get why people don't seem to realize that
Magic is the big thing, but you also need to consider that simply undercutting the market isn't enough. Gamers will feel a loyalty to their FLGS to continue repaying the Friendliness, and an extra 5% off might encourage some sales but you certainly won't make friends with your competitors nor will you make friend with their loyal followers, as you'll probably need recommendations from your competitors. As in, "sorry, we don't have a gaming table/that product, but Iapedus around the corner is a good shout and a good guy."
For an FLGS to succeed, based on what I've seen online, there is 4 elements.
F: Friendly. You need to have the positive outgoing and welcoming atmosphere that encourages people to come in. This is the big thing about GW stores, their sales staff are too pushy and it makes people not want to go for risk of being pressured into "buy something or get out." Get to know your customers by name, preference, etc. This is both good for business, but the best way to be a salesman is to sell people something they actually want.
Example of GW employee:
"Why don't you pick up this awesomely powerful £50 Centurion squad?" "Uh, sure..."
Vs
"I noticed you like heavy firepower, here's the new Centurions, *shows rules.* Or, if you don't like that, because I noticed you like tanks, why not try a Predator?" "Gee thanks, I'll get the Predator, its exactly my thing!"
L: Local. No point opening a store 4 miles from the nearest civilisation. Put it somewhere that people can get to, with convenient/cheap parking or public transport nearby.
G: Gaming. Offer tables for free, or organise pay per person events, or something that's not just a store front to sell stuff to the person. See GW stores in F. As mentioned, MTG is going to be your golden goose. 40k and other tabletops take up more space, but don't throw out the idea of tables in favour of card gaming spaces just to get more people in. This undermines Friendly. Also, put a dedicated schedule in place for each game to avoid friction between groups. The last thing you need is to have all the Magic players leave because the 40k players are getting all the space and time. Set out designated days for each type of thing, from Wargaming, cards, painting, etc. Make sure to have at least two of whatever's popular each week. Thursday might net you 10 MTG players, but there might be another 5 who can't make a Thursday but can do Tuesday, so if you keep Thursday as the only MTG night, you will lose 5 customers. Put a booking system in place to avoid unnecessary competition over space. I recommend that you only accept bookings for space in a space 3 days to 1 day before (So a Thursday would require a booking between Sunday and Wednesday, otherwise its open gaming), or for several weeks in advance. On top of this, get to know your customers, kinda similar to Friendly. If you keep getting a call from Bob, who's 12 and nice guy and can only get down from 7pm to 9pm on a Monday, and has missed out 6 weeks in a row because of early bookings, put him as first priority for that slot for the next week. Or the same guy phones up 4pm every Tuesday as soon as the window opens to book the only 40k 6x6 table, one week just say "Sorry, table's already booked." Sure, its "cheating" but its stops monopolisation by a select few, maximises your customer base and sales and generally makes everyone more content that they actually will get a time to game.
S: Store. You need to sell stuff and make a profit. You'll need to negotiate rates and fees and everything with each supplier. As mentioned, MTG is your golden goose, get that in as players need new cards every week. Don't just think about the product itself, think about accessories. Card protectors for card games like yugioh or MTG or pokemon. Painting and modelling for models like 40k. If you want 40k you'll need to negotiate with GW. Go for the 30% if you want, but remember that the 30 will come out of your cut, not theirs. Also, the more diverse AND extensive your product range, the more business. Its all well and good to have Magic and 40k, but there's better business to be had also selling stuff like Yugioh, malifaux, Warmahordes and others besides, as you can then maximise the amount of those accessory items like protectors and paints that you sell, and purchase in larger quantities and get cheap (as bought in bulk).
If I were to open a store, I would not bother with miniatures you have to paint. It'd be board games, x-wing type games, magic the gathering (the main concentration), whatever yugioh type game is popular with younger kids these days and general geek culture collectables.
I would never discount and would concentrate on community building through organized play. I would also take advantage of the little known psychological thing that when you ask someone to help you they like you more and I'd be asking anyone who was even semi regular to help with things like moving tables or TOing the organized play or anything needed to making hosted gaming go more smoothly.
But since there already is a local store exactly like that, I'd have to go elsewhere as I don't think I could compete with the guy when it comes to community building and sales.
You certainly don't want to get caught up on in a price war - other stores may have a better distributor discount due to size. Focus on adding value. You can always try and match the usual 10% off RRP but you don't need to go crazy - the people that are drawn in by your mega cheap mini's will jump to the next place that is cheapest at the time.
Don't open a store unless you know a lot about how to run a business and have done your research, including why the other stores have closed down and/or moved away.
Opening a store simply because you like games and it seems like it would be a cool idea is actually a terrible idea that will lose you a ton of money, cause a great deal of stress - because owning/running a business is 24/7, not 9-5 - and burn lots and lots of your time..
I manage The Games Den, a Boardgames FLGS in Leamington Spa. It's basically a two-man-band, the owner/boss and I.
How do we make money?
Well - Magic the Gathering is a big draw. We hold Drafts on Thursday and Sunday, and FnM every Friday. We have a play space, we sell snacks and drinks (probably our second biggest seller after Magic), and we open 6 days a week.
We have an event every night we're open: Tuesdays is casual board gaming (and soon a DnD campaign), Wednesday is RPG night (DM's drink for free), Thursday is Netrunner, more board games, and Thursday Night Magic Draft, Friday is Friday Night Magic , Saturday is tournament day (X-Wing, Armada, Netrunner, Ivor the Engine, Game of Thrones card game, Yu-Gi-Oh!, a different tournament every week), Sunday we have another DnD campaign and another draft.
We're busy every afternoon and evening, we have regulars already, and we benefit from our location - near a train station, slap bang in the middle of Student Land (Warwick University has a lot of students living in Leamington Spa).
We also offer 5% discounts to Games Denizens, people who buy six- or twelve-month memberships so they don't have to pay the £2 per person table charge (we discount for groups and families), and most importantly?
We're friendly and we provide a service as well as a safe place to play. We don't allow swearing and we encourage children and families in. It's a successful formula so far, but we did only open at the end of May.
Teach your customers new games from time to time, develop interest, move on to another. But find what they like, and give them options. Lots of guys will try multiple systems. I've seen it work to grow a tiny ass store into a big one.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
Can anyone please enlighten us?
We had to make some assumptions when it came to the Trade Price offered by GW on their products (we assumed 30% lower than RRRP since other FLGS regularly offer 25% off) but even assuming this discount and a fairly unsustainable turnover (over 20,000 GBP per month) we still could not get the figures to work out.
Well OP, the mistake you made here was drawing up a business plan. Many stores would hailmarycharge into opening, then eventually run up enough debts that they have to close down .
Otherwise you need to sell products that you can resell to the same customers (Magic!) or be aggressive in your recruitment (IIRCGW reckons the average new 'hobbiest' drops £500 in their first year, which sounds like a lot but is 'only' £40 a month).
I'll add that a fair number of them also effectively subsidise the store with web sales,
although of course if your web sales are too effective they hurt the in store business which is why general gaming, tournaments, painting, demos, a good atmosphere (and food/drink depending on you local setup) are essential to keep people actually using the store
Thanks for the replies everybody, some great stuff here!
I hadn't really considered MTG as a revenue stream, so I'll have to do some research and see how popular it is in the local area. Primarily we would want it to be a miniatures store, stocking GW / Bolt Action / the FFG games / Infinity / Warmahordes / Spartan games / Gundam and the hobby stuff to go with it (paint, etc). We would also look to stock some board games (i.e. the FFG ones related to the miniature games) so CCGs would also be a logical step from there. Diversity is going to be the key to survival, but we need to be wary of becoming too unfocused in what we offer.
I have worked in retail and run my own business before, so have a good idea of how much hard work is required and how much you have to deal with other than just the hobby related stuff, but as it is we are still stuck at the business plan level and if we don't get past that it wont happen.
The hardest part of getting the figures to work is knowing what the discount rate from the game manufacturers actually is. They wont give you the information until you have a store, but we are not going to open a store unless we have a solid plan, which requires a rough idea of what the rate is. We have based our assumption of 30% on the fact that people such as Wayland Games and Frontline Gaming regularly offer 25% off GW prices, and must be making at least 5% for themselves? Does anyone have any idea what kind of discount off RRRP these guys usually offer?
Know your games, your suppliers, and your customer base.
CCGs (Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon) are huge, but Conquest does fairly well in areas, as did Netrunner, Heroclix, and other games.
Collectible games are always going to bring in more money than games like D&D or Warhammer 40k, but you're going to find that customers who are made to feel welcome for their other games are going to be willing to spend more money to support you.
My local game store is 5 minutes away, but they don't have the friendliest environment and they don't make everyone feel super welcome. I do my business at a second store that's a 45 minute drive, but bends over backwards to make 40k and D&D players feel welcome, while still managing to run competitive events for their moneymakers like the card games.
Iapedus wrote: I hadn't really considered MTG as a revenue stream, so I'll have to do some research and see how popular it is in the local area.
Honestly, this strongly suggests that you haven't done anywhere near enough research to be thinking about running a store. It's pretty common knowledge that MTG is a huge revenue source for game stores, I can't imagine doing even the most superficial search for information on running a store without encountering this fact.
Primarily we would want it to be a miniatures store, stocking GW / Bolt Action / the FFG games / Infinity / Warmahordes / Spartan games / Gundam and the hobby stuff to go with it (paint, etc).
Forget it. MTG is what makes you money, all that other stuff is just a nice side business. I don't care what your interests are, you sell MTG and you have some game tables available for Friday Night Magic at minimum. If you don't want to deal with MTG (and other CCGs) then don't go anywhere near the idea of a game store.
I've also worked in the game industry and for several game stores. Here's what I have seen as store killers:
Bad Location. You need someplace kids can go to, near schools/colleges and buslines, or near some place mom and dad won't mind going to while Timmy games.
Dirtiness and disorganization. Obvious, but you would be suprised at how many game stores are dumps.
Friendliness has been mentioned before. There's a local store that is extremely well stocked...and the gaming group is hostile to 40K. Too expensive, bad rules blah blah blah. You need to head this off at once and make everyone welcome to game in your store.
Lack of stock. No one wants to go to a store and find out they are always out of a product. Remember the rule of 3 or 4...you buy something at a 40% discount. once you sell it 3 or 4 times, all sales of that product will be a profit. So figure out that carrying 4 Tactical Marines is good, carrying a complete Romanian Army for Flames of War is bad. I stopped shopping the local FLGS when I needed something right away because I couldn't count on them carrying the product, and I'd head over to the more distant GW store. Let me clarify...carry the key full range, and all the paints and hobby supplies, and get restock asap. Its ok not to carry Romanians, or Sisters of Battle etc., those won't be the big sellers for you and will suck up overhead.
Stay open a little later than normal. I don't get the game stores that open at 11 or noon ( I know, some malls require you to have certain hours) and are empty for 2-3 hours, and then close at 9. If I get off work at 5, take an hour to get to the store and get food, I'm only going to have time to get 1 game of 40K in, if I'm lucky. Same with DnD. A good session of DnD requires about 4 hours of game time. The FLG near me closes at 8 on Saturdays.....boggles my mind.
This might seem like odd advice...but don't hire gamers. Hire real workers and train them. Gamers won't be the salespeople that you need or want. Gamers will want to play games and talk shop, not run demos, upsell, or provide great customer service. If you can find a gamer who can do that, great. But most game store employees are gamers, and are failures at the employee part.
Promote, promote, promote. Invite people to come back. Say Hey, see you at the megabattle on Saturday! You won't believe the difference that makes. I've seen game stores that didn't do that, and they were empty. The ones that did got business.
Remember that your main competition isn't the store down the street or across town. It's the interent with guys selling 25-30% off. Gamers never show their store loyalty. Find a way for them to shop in your store.
The other thing is the store needs to be inviting. So many gaming stores with poor lighting and windows blocked by product and posters. This is not inviting.
Furthermore, a dark store will fail to showcase any minis or games you have set up. It will also invalidate any painting area you have set aside. Proper lighting (and even better, daylight) will enhance the mood of your customers, making them happier at your store (more likely to return, as well as more likely to make a purchase on any individual visit).
From several previous conversations with FLGS people:
1) Card Games- MTG, Pokemon, Yugioh, or whatever else is popular. Honestly, these are what will pay your bills.
2) Board Games- Boardgames are the second best way to pay your bills. Becoming known as a good place to find interesting board games helps draw in the non-gamer crowd. Offering up rental copies can get people to come to your store where they will hopefully buy stuff.
3) Vending machines/Snacks- Gaming is thirsty work, and some source of refreshing beverages will pay for itself, and help keep customers happy.
You will stock stuff like 40k mostly to give let yourself buy product at wholesale costs.
Generally FLGS don't really make money. Most owners will operate at something close to subsistence levels. The issue is you open a FLGS because you have a passion for gaming. And that makes for a very poor business person in most instances. It is so easy to end up with a store that stocks only what the owner likes.
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: You will stock stuff like 40k mostly to give let yourself buy product at wholesale costs.
Don't forget drawing in new MTG customers. It's ok if 40k only makes you a small profit if some of those 40k players are buying MTG stuff since they're already in your store for 40k night.
Gen.Steiner wrote: I manage The Games Den, a Boardgames FLGS in Leamington Spa. It's basically a two-man-band, the owner/boss and I.
You need to advertise more! I would not have found you existed had I not happend to see this thread on the front page, and then click on it, which I almost never do. People in Banbury need to know you exist. At the moment gamers there are all going to Gameskeeper or Meeples in Oxford, which whilst they are good shops are a PITA to get to as parking in Oxford is hell.
I'll definatly be comming in for a visit next time I'm up in Leamington to go to the garage or Lockwoods.
I'd really reconsider selling GW stuff they will force mandatory sales on you making you stock the new stuff before you can buy what you want, they won't easily refund stuff that's not selling and they won't let you have any kind of sale to clear stuff that's not moving.
And if you should do well they'll open a store nearby and screw you over on new releases so people go to them.
hobojebus wrote: I'd really reconsider selling GW stuff they will force mandatory sales on you making you stock the new stuff before you can buy what you want, they won't easily refund stuff that's not selling and they won't let you have any kind of sale to clear stuff that's not moving.
And if you should do well they'll open a store nearby and screw you over on new releases so people go to them.
GW is scummy to flgs owners.
When I look through GW's financial statements and notice that their most efficient avenue for selling miniatures is through independent trade partners, I'm tempted to think that is because locally owned gaming stores are just more efficient than GW's stores or their online store/mail order. I think the truth might be the predatory minimums and mandatory products to be carried that makes them so efficient (in terms of generating cash for GW, not the store). If a customer walks into a GW store or goes to their website, they can order any product they like, but a store doesn't have that luxury. I wonder how much of their trade sales is made up of these mandatory products that just sit on shelves.
When a new customer starts with GW, they're likely to make their greatest purchases up front. They'll buy a starter or a rulebook, a codex, some models & accessories, paints, tools, etc., but then their purchases will likely drop off to a few a year until they eventually quit (with dedicated folks who post on places like DakkaDakka being the exception. I think the same thing might hold with GW's trade acounts. A new trade account buys all sorts of products and paints and whatnot and then makes some restocking orders until they eventually quit (with some successful stores that keep selling GW stuff being the exception). And just like how GW's retail stores try to always be selling to new people, GW's trade sales are cold calling all the toy stores and game stores they can find. And as long as enough gamers dream of owning their own store, there will be new targets for them. Even if it likely makes no sense to stock their product and it likely won't work as far as a viable business goes.
Locally, we have two dedicated game stores. One has been around for 30+ years, but has been in constant decline since the rent at the local mall forced them to relocate - CCGs and X-Wing are what's keeping them afloat. The other has focussed on board games and Warmahordes, but still has loads of other stuff in stock.
Oh, and a GW store, but since they only stock GW products, that's not what I count as a game store.
At every other game store locally, games are supplemented in some degree by comics.
My FLGS seems to survive on not only catering to nerds within miniatures / magic, but also to nerds within LEGO, anime/cartoons, boardgames, LARP ++
The place is packed in holiday seasons with all kinds of people, with most being very normal looking shoppers. The main floor is Lego (advanced / nerdy lego), books, cartoons, boardgames and general nerd stuff (like minecraft plushies, mario candy and other funny gift / impulse buy items).
Miniature, RPG and magic is in the cellar, with a decent sized dedicated gaming space in a separate room from the shop itself (good for less theft I would guess)
In short, it caters to a much wider audience than most FLGS´s seem to do.
Azazelx wrote: Don't open a store unless you know a lot about how to run a business and have done your research, including why the other stores have closed down and/or moved away.
Opening a store simply because you like games and it seems like it would be a cool idea is actually a terrible idea that will lose you a ton of money, cause a great deal of stress - because owning/running a business is 24/7, not 9-5 - and burn lots and lots of your time..
This is the most correct answer, too many people open a game store because they love playing games. You will almost never play games running a game store, you will watch a lot of it though. The only reason to ever open a business is to make money for you the shareholder. This is done in retail by a customer centric model.
You need to set yourself apart in a market rife with unproffesionalism. Have professionally trained sales staff (proper salesmanship isn't pushy it's subtle), have uniforms, have cleanliness, actually run reports like a square footage report. Have a location that allows growth, nothing worse than growing a big community then not having space for events. Understand that events are loss leaders (or you make a very small margin) not a direct source of revenue. Do not give cash prizes, that is moronic, give store credit. For instance a 100% payout in store credit for top players in a tourney, it's great for them because store credit spends 1 for 1 as cash for them but it's more like 50% of cash for you. Have an aggressive plan for getting new customers, regulars do not make you much money, the initial buy in to anything is always the greatest, this includes MTG. Then ensure you have things like loyalty programs and professional staff that retain those customers. Have an online component, you'll fail without this. Have someone that has great market knowledge and can trade and flip used stuff online. Do not charge full retail, I laugh at full retail in this day and age, it's a joke I won't pay it and the group of people willing to pay just to support the LGS is a shrinking market, don't count on them. People also physiologically spend more when they get visible discounts. So do things like show the retail price and the your price. Simple things like putting price stickers on the back so the customer has to pick it up to see the price. You know what that means if they pick it up, it means there is interest in that product, that's a sales opener right there! I could go on and on and on, but needless to say is you need to do research. Also keep in mind the most important thing on a business plan for investors is a Return on Investment, that's what they truly care about, how are you gonna make them money as an investor.
As far as your margin, I can't say what it is where you live (RRP, that's UK right?), in the US though distributors give a roughly 45-50% margin.
DrNo172000 wrote: the initial buy in to anything is always the greatest, this includes MTG.
Small disagreement here: the initial buy in for MTG is actually fairly small, usually a cheap starter set and maybe a couple of packs. And then when people make the initial jump to playing seriously they often go online to buy single cards instead of buying locally. Where you win with MTG is the long-term addicts. They'll buy a box of every new set as soon as it is announced, buy more packs every time they're in the store, and regularly spend $15+ on draft tournaments. And really, draft tournaments are the easiest money you'll ever make. Everyone who enters has to pay for three packs at full retail price, plus an entry fee which goes to buying more packs to give out as prize support. A simple 8-person draft is selling $120 worth of MTG just for saying "here's a table you can use", on top of whatever additional packs the players might buy while they're in the store. Your goal as a store is to get people over the initial "casual games with the starter set" buy-in and make them into dedicated long-term players who will gladly hand you $20 every week just for existing.
Have someone that has great market knowledge and can trade and flip used stuff online.
Just be aware of the fact that getting into the used stuff market is risky and a good way to tie up money in inventory you can't sell. If there's an opportunity you might as well take it, but don't count on this in your budget planning.
DrNo172000 wrote: the initial buy in to anything is always the greatest, this includes MTG.
Small disagreement here: the initial buy in for MTG is actually fairly small, usually a cheap starter set and maybe a couple of packs. And then when people make the initial jump to playing seriously they often go online to buy single cards instead of buying locally. Where you win with MTG is the long-term addicts. They'll buy a box of every new set as soon as it is announced, buy more packs every time they're in the store, and regularly spend $15+ on draft tournaments. And really, draft tournaments are the easiest money you'll ever make. Everyone who enters has to pay for three packs at full retail price, plus an entry fee which goes to buying more packs to give out as prize support. A simple 8-person draft is selling $120 worth of MTG just for saying "here's a table you can use", on top of whatever additional packs the players might buy while they're in the store. Your goal as a store is to get people over the initial "casual games with the starter set" buy-in and make them into dedicated long-term players who will gladly hand you $20 every week just for existing.
Have someone that has great market knowledge and can trade and flip used stuff online.
Just be aware of the fact that getting into the used stuff market is risky and a good way to tie up money in inventory you can't sell. If there's an opportunity you might as well take it, but don't count on this in your budget planning.
in my experience buying used product models that work usually involve store credit as the return, or taking a 20% lower amount in cash at an already low price. I see stores off 30-50% of the value of something, even if it is NOS or NIB- Lets say they buy 200 dollars worth of miniatures, likely they bought 400-600 USD worth of something, the person takes store credit of 200 or 160 USD. The person is probably taking the store credit, which costs the store 100-120 dollars. The store will sell the items they purchased at 20-40% off retail depending on what it is-some things they may not buy. Or a margin of $240 - 480 for their likely 100 dollars. Not all of the items will sale, they will likely make 180-380. Still a good margin - often more than buying new product from a distributor and selling it at MSRP.
Another model I see stores do well is OPENING A LARGE BOXED set, and splitting the contents into bundles to sale. They pay ~ 75-85 usd for death masque, then break it down and sell the parts for significantly more. Rule Book= $25 -30, minis are sold at 20% off MSRP of the smaller box they would normally be sold in. Large % profit. I have seen stores do this, guess what? That Start collecting army boxed set they paid $40 USD for sold in parts for 10 dollars more than the MSRP of the actual box. This combined with buying models from patrons will let you buy half of a death masque box/stormclaw/etc and sell off the army for $ that a player didn't want from the box. Maybe the rulebook too, chance are you are paying them in store credit so you are paying them much less than the value of the models you will resale.
Another good thing, with GW items. Offer a 20% discount on pre-orders of new content if they pay up front before the order arrives. Earmark limited spots based on some % of the amount you are getting, this way you don't end up with 8 boxes of something that sits and doesn't sell later. People are more likely to pick up at a discount, and buy more if they think "I AM GETTING A DEAL HERE" and if you make the qty limited up front for a limited time window, after that they go to MSRP. For items that normally would end up not selling well, this will increase sales through impulse buying.
most FLGS I see are bad at business. And to the person who said do not offer a discount because other stores may bad mouth you, no one is going to sing your praise. You are a business, they are a business. If you are close to each other people are only going to go to the shop they do not normally go to if their normal shop is out of something they call you and you have it. No business model anywhere thinks "marking things down for sales is bad, it will hurt our bottom line and ruin our reputation." The second I read your comment, I assumed you run/work at a FLGS.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
In general, you don't (make money), and can't (stay in business).
Most FLGS will go out of business in a year's time, after they burn through their seed money, and try to recoup some pennies on the back end via clearance sales.
If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
The way around this is to be a card shop that sells Pokemon / Yugioh / Magic, runs Friday Night Magic and weekend tournaments, and does a brisk trade in singles. In this case, your product is the entertainment of hosting card events every night and every weekend and every month.
blaktoof wrote: I see stores off 30-50% of the value of something, even if it is NOS or NIB
Well yeah, that's of course going to work. If you're buying NIB stuff from desperate people at huge discounts it's easy to make money. But that's not what most people think of when they hear "trade and flip used stuff online". Selling opened and played board games, painted models, etc, is much harder than selling NIB stuff.
The store will sell the items they purchased at 20-40% off retail depending on what it is-some things they may not buy.
Good luck getting that much for used stuff. Unless you meant 20% of retail price, not a 20% discount?
Another model I see stores do well is OPENING A LARGE BOXED set, and splitting the contents into bundles to sale. They pay ~ 75-85 usd for death masque, then break it down and sell the parts for significantly more. Rule Book= $25 -30, minis are sold at 20% off MSRP of the smaller box they would normally be sold in. Large % profit. I have seen stores do this, guess what? That Start collecting army boxed set they paid $40 USD for sold in parts for 10 dollars more than the MSRP of the actual box. This combined with buying models from patrons will let you buy half of a death masque box/stormclaw/etc and sell off the army for $ that a player didn't want from the box. Maybe the rulebook too, chance are you are paying them in store credit so you are paying them much less than the value of the models you will resale.
Just don't do this with GW stuff. If you get caught you'll lose your retailer account and discount, which effectively means you can't sell GW stuff anymore.
They didn't close, just moved from their great Wan Chai location over the harbour into an East Kowloon Industrial Estate This means the Island has lost its main gaming centre, leaving a lot of folks who cant easily get over to the new place adrift. GW did also just open a new store in Mong Konk, but again it is not the easiest place to access for Island dwellers and is so tiny they only have a single 4x4 table to play on.
Thanks again for all the great advice being offered here, we will definitely take it on board in making our decision!
I'm sure it's possible to turn a profit if you don't have MtG, but it's going to be a lot harder, especially these days with the internet and whatnot.
Another revenue stream that may have been mentioned but I missed is selling 2nd hand stuff. I remember my FLGS (before it closed ) told me most of the GW-related money they made was people trading in stuff and then reselling it rather than new stuff. People buy a $400 army, a few months later they discover they are never going to paint it or need the money to buy the latest xplayboxstation game and sell it back to you for $150, then you put it back on the shelf at $300.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
That would be how you lose money. If all you have is a single 6x4 table why is anyone going to bother coming into your store? They can buy online for less money, and you aren't offering them anything in return for your higher prices.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
That would be how you lose money. If all you have is a single 6x4 table why is anyone going to bother coming into your store? They can buy online for less money, and you aren't offering them anything in return for your higher prices.
Plus if you're looking for dirt cheap rent then you're out of the way, people can't get there on public transport, and your shop is empty.
For a normal business selling stuff that most people want or need the mantra is location, location, location. Be a place people walk by all the time and lure in foot traffic.
For a niche store like gaming you can be a bit out of the way but then you have to advertise and build relationships and a community.
They didn't close, just moved from their great Wan Chai location over the harbour into an East Kowloon Industrial Estate This means the Island has lost its main gaming centre, leaving a lot of folks who cant easily get over to the new place adrift. GW did also just open a new store in Mong Konk, but again it is not the easiest place to access for Island dwellers and is so tiny they only have a single 4x4 table to play on.
Oh noes! Glad I found I found before my Christmas trip.
I still have some Cultural Revolution zombies to paint from my last trip there in 2009.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS store locator updated
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I';m on the subject, how is this list of gaming shops from the HK Society of Wargamers?
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
That would be how you lose money. If all you have is a single 6x4 table why is anyone going to bother coming into your store? They can buy online for less money, and you aren't offering them anything in return for your higher prices.
Yeah, I know a former FLGS that went that route, have a great store, lots of tables, good terrain, in an out of the way industrial park so they had plenty of space.
And ultimately, that was the problem. It just wasn't convenient to get to, and unless you knew about it, there was absolutely no way to get casual passerby traffic. There was another store that I didn't like as much, but it was in a shopping center, convenient to get to, and got a lot of casual traffic. It's still in business, while the former folded.
Gen.Steiner wrote: I manage The Games Den, a Boardgames FLGS in Leamington Spa. It's basically a two-man-band, the owner/boss and I.
You need to advertise more! I would not have found you existed had I not happend to see this thread on the front page, and then click on it, which I almost never do.
I work in Warwick (covering Leam) and live in Coventry, and I had not heard a thing about you. Not that I can think how I'd have heard, but still... Drop by covgaming.proboards.com and get yourselves on there (if you want).
I'll get you added here, too: http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/store_finder.jsp, as Leam only has GW listed.
Plus if you're looking for dirt cheap rent then you're out of the way, people can't get there on public transport, and your shop is empty.
Out of the way is fine if you're big enough to host events. Our main event venue up here is in an old snooker hall in a city that's fairly central, but without much passing traffic. People travel for events though, as it has something like 12x 4x6 tables permanently set up, with space for more, and a cafe/shop on the side.
Plus if you're looking for dirt cheap rent then you're out of the way, people can't get there on public transport, and your shop is empty.
Out of the way is fine if you're big enough to host events. Our main event venue up here is in an old snooker hall in a city that's fairly central, but without much passing traffic. People travel for events though, as it has something like 12x 4x6 tables permanently set up, with space for more, and a cafe/shop on the side.
It's always a balancing act. A hobby store near where I lived when I was in the USA was miles away from anything. It was fething huge and it could certainly afford that because it was out of the way. The place was always busy and the space let them run events (not just wargaming, but had enough space for race tracks for cars and stuff as well).
I think it worked because there was no useful public transport anyway, everyone drove everywhere other than a few people within walking distance of the main town centre, so driving a few minutes extra to the hobby store is no big deal.
Where I live in Australia I don't think that'd work. You'd want to be within walking distance of a train station or something. Curiously there's an FLGS that opened recently out here that's in a reasonably large facility and I assume the rent is pretty cheap, it's not out of the way but a bit difficult to get to when driving and in a quiet area of town, but still walking distance to the train station, will be interesting to see how they manage it.
My local hobby shop, not FLGS but general hobby, recently moved AWAY from his old shop which was near a train station, his reason was that it was less rent money for a bigger shop in a nicer location and most his business comes from repeat customers who drive anyway and used to complain to him about how there wasn't enough parking at his old store that was nearer public transport. It certainly worked for me, his old shop I had to make a special trip because I had to drive in to the heart of town I'd never go in to for any other reason, but now he's just on a side street of a major highway, so it's less of a hassle to stop by on my way to somewhere else.
In my area, we have about 4 different FLGS, all of which follow radically different models. The oldest and most successful puts equal effort on comics, board games, and miniature wargames, but has virtually no MTG presence. He has a room with 2 full size wargame tables and lots of terrain, as well as several smaller tables. Comics and miniatures are his biggest sellers and he's doing well enough to buy the building next door to him and expand.
The next one is part of a localized chain called G2K Games, and they sell everything, from comics to video games to MTG and Warhammer. They host gaming events regularly and seem to be doing pretty well. They originally started out as primarily video games, but soon branched out.
The newest in the area is almost all MTG. They host weekly events, have a ton of playing area and seem to be doing well. They have a small wargames selection and a decent collection of boardgames and have a few nice tables set up for wargames.
The final one is a chain store called Hobby Town USA. They put more focus on typical hobby stores than gaming, but do host a regular gaming night and have tables for wargames.
All of these stores have been relatively successful, with the youngest one being open a little over a year now (and recently expanded). The big thing about them is, they don't offer deep discounts (or hardly ANY discounts with the exception of Hobby Town USA). The oldest one offers no discount on anything, but has excellent service and has always tried to garner customer loyalty.
I think the lesson is, don't try to be the FLGS that gives the steepest discount. Try to have more than one focus on your products and make sure you have plenty of gaming space. Diversity is key, because when one game type declines, another usually ramps up. Also, sell drinks and snacks, lots and lots of drinks and snacks, because gamers like to eat and drink
Iapedus wrote:The hardest part of getting the figures to work is knowing what the discount rate from the game manufacturers actually is. They wont give you the information until you have a store, but we are not going to open a store unless we have a solid plan, which requires a rough idea of what the rate is. We have based our assumption of 30% on the fact that people such as Wayland Games and Frontline Gaming regularly offer 25% off GW prices, and must be making at least 5% for themselves? Does anyone have any idea what kind of discount off RRRP these guys usually offer?
It varies, at least as far as GW is concerned. The closer you get to a GW shop, the bigger the discount - you start at 30% off RRP (EXCLUSIVE of VAT), then if your store does things like have table space, do painting lessons, etc etc, you can get to 40% off RRP. I think that is the maximum trade discount (at least it was a few years ago).
Companies like Esdevium Games (distributors of FFG in the UK) have a 30-35% discount. Assuming a trade price of about 2/3 RRP is going to be pretty close to what you'll get - don't forget to account for VAT or local equivalent, however - e.g. a £10 item at 30% off is £7... PLUS 20% VAT, so it's actually £8.40.
Steve steveson wrote:
Gen.Steiner wrote: I manage The Games Den, a Boardgames FLGS in Leamington Spa. It's basically a two-man-band, the owner/boss and I.
You need to advertise more! I would not have found you existed had I not happend to see this thread on the front page, and then click on it, which I almost never do. People in Banbury need to know you exist. At the moment gamers there are all going to Gameskeeper or Meeples in Oxford, which whilst they are good shops are a PITA to get to as parking in Oxford is hell.
I'll definatly be comming in for a visit next time I'm up in Leamington to go to the garage or Lockwoods.
We've only been open since 28th May - advertising's all been FB related and word of mouth so far! Do drop in, it'd be great to meet a fellow Dakkaite. I'm the slim bearded one, Boss Man Tim's the big bearded one.
Gen.Steiner wrote: I manage The Games Den, a Boardgames FLGS in Leamington Spa. It's basically a two-man-band, the owner/boss and I.
You need to advertise more! I would not have found you existed had I not happend to see this thread on the front page, and then click on it, which I almost never do.
I work in Warwick (covering Leam) and live in Coventry, and I had not heard a thing about you. Not that I can think how I'd have heard, but still... Drop by covgaming.proboards.com and get yourselves on there (if you want).
I'll get you added here, too: http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/store_finder.jsp, as Leam only has GW listed.
Ooh, covgaming.proboards.com eh? Will do - thanks for the heads up (and the note about the store finder, I didn't know that existed)! Pop in and play something!
Most stores I know get money through MTG primarily, but also comics, anime collectables and food and drink. Increasingly more stores here are having little "food stalls" in them that sell more than just the standard pop and chips (some sell full-blown meals like hamburgers with french fries and a fountain drink, all generic brand ofc).
Finally another trend that's happening here is the "Game cafe" thing, where you pay an entrance fee and play their open box games while ordering drinks of all kinds, which has become very popular with the asian visa students here. These are different from the above stores that offer meals in that the above meals are generally aimed towards tournament players (who often dedicate entire weekends in the shop, leaving only for food), while the gaming cafes are aimed at casual, drop-in players.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
That would be how you lose money. If all you have is a single 6x4 table why is anyone going to bother coming into your store? They can buy online for less money, and you aren't offering them anything in return for your higher prices.
Plus if you're looking for dirt cheap rent then you're out of the way, people can't get there on public transport, and your shop is empty.
For a normal business selling stuff that most people want or need the mantra is location, location, location. Be a place people walk by all the time and lure in foot traffic.
For a niche store like gaming you can be a bit out of the way but then you have to advertise and build relationships and a community.
I have seen quite a number of gaming "stores" fold, and every one of them has been expensive rent with a lot of tables. The idea of placing them in a premium mall never works. That's how all of the WotC and other game stores closed out of the major malls. Including the GW stores locally - they're in little strip malls, not the Galleria or in a huge "Battle Bunker".
The stores that lasted the longest function as stores, for which wargaming is a small niche, and did just fine with a single permanent table, using fold-outs for events. The stores that actually make money with lots of space are the card stores, not the wargaming stores. That is, stores that are run as a business, with an emphasis on using in expensive footage to make money.
ClassicCarraway wrote: The final one is a chain store called Hobby Town USA. They put more focus on typical hobby stores than gaming, but do host a regular gaming night and have tables for wargames.
Just to point out that HobbyTown USA is a franchise, so its entirely possible that might be the franchisee's only location.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to make money, you need to find dirt cheap rent and then use the most of it to make money. Maximum one 4'x6' table at the front of the store, where you can watch it from the register, with the overwhelming majority of your space devoted to selling product at a profit.
That would be how you lose money. If all you have is a single 6x4 table why is anyone going to bother coming into your store? They can buy online for less money, and you aren't offering them anything in return for your higher prices.
Plus if you're looking for dirt cheap rent then you're out of the way, people can't get there on public transport, and your shop is empty.
For a normal business selling stuff that most people want or need the mantra is location, location, location. Be a place people walk by all the time and lure in foot traffic.
For a niche store like gaming you can be a bit out of the way but then you have to advertise and build relationships and a community.
I have seen quite a number of gaming "stores" fold, and every one of them has been expensive rent with a lot of tables. The idea of placing them in a premium mall never works. That's how all of the WotC and other game stores closed out of the major malls. Including the GW stores locally - they're in little strip malls, not the Galleria or in a huge "Battle Bunker".
The stores that lasted the longest function as stores, for which wargaming is a small niche, and did just fine with a single permanent table, using fold-outs for events. The stores that actually make money with lots of space are the card stores, not the wargaming stores. That is, stores that are run as a business, with an emphasis on using in expensive footage to make money.
I don't think there's any "one size fits all" formula. A couple of stores that seemed to do well have large stores with a proper gaming area, 10+ large tables and make money by charging a few bucks to use them, or renting the entire gaming space to one of the local clubs for the day. Another store that's lasted a long time is in a decently busy foot traffic area and uses about half the store space as a gaming area, but it's used for card gaming and RPGs more often than wargaming, they run events 5 or 6 days a week.
The local GW in its old location did quite well, it was in a large shopping centre, a small store but managed to fit 3 small tables in it. It had a lull when it moved out of the shopping centre in to a quieter location with cheaper rent and a larger area for more tables, but it's picked up again now, I don't know whether or not it's making ends meet but there's almost always people in it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I have seen quite a number of gaming "stores" fold, and every one of them has been expensive rent with a lot of tables.
Sure, but how many stores with no gaming space have failed in that same time? Paying more rent for table space is hard on the budget, but not doing so is suicide. If you don't have gaming space and you can't match the discounts of the online stores why would I ever go into your store? You'll end up with cheap rent but a pile of unsold inventory collecting dust because the only time anyone ever considers buying something from you is if they need a last-minute pot of paint. And you certainly aren't going to build the kind of customer loyalty that gets people to pay a little extra to buy locally because they love your store.
The idea of placing them in a premium mall never works. That's how all of the WotC and other game stores closed out of the major malls. Including the GW stores locally - they're in little strip malls, not the Galleria or in a huge "Battle Bunker".
This is not a very convincing argument when GW's retail stores are generally considered to be dead weight that GW should get rid of. Those cheap strip-mall stores provide very little for the existing customers and do nothing to attract new customers. Kill them off entirely and GW would lose nothing.
The stores that lasted the longest function as stores, for which wargaming is a small niche, and did just fine with a single permanent table, using fold-outs for events.
How do folding tables change anything? You still need the same floor space to put them out, unless you're willing to shut down sales and shove all your inventory into the back to make room every time you have an event. And if you have the floor space you might as well have permanent tables and use that floor space at all times.
The stores that actually make money with lots of space are the card stores, not the wargaming stores. That is, stores that are run as a business, with an emphasis on using in expensive footage to make money.
What does being a card store have to do with being run as a business? Which product you're selling has very little to do with how you run the store.
I'm not sure I'd really recommend starting any kind of retail store in the current climate. The rise of online retail is only going to continue as more and more people transition to seeing it as the default option, with brick-and-mortar being an afterthought.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm not sure I'd really recommend starting any kind of retail store in the current climate. The rise of online retail is only going to continue as more and more people transition to seeing it as the default option, with brick-and-mortar being an afterthought.
Bricks and mortar can survive by providing a service that online stores can't - a place to play, and a place to meet people and socialise. That's how we function, mostly. As I type I'm waiting for people to arrive for our August Armada Tournament .
A location that people can travel to, sit down in, and play with likeminded sorts is going to do a lot better than a box with stock in it. You have to combine that with good customer service though - make friends with your regulars and be welcoming to everyone!
The most succesful FLGS that I have ever been to (Element Games) started out as an online retailer and built up a solid reputation for always delivering quickly and on time, as well as accurate stock levels and good prices
Once they had established their reputation they then moved to a bricks and mortar establishment and branched out. They stock a very wide range, don't sell a lot of MTG but do good business on GW products
Something to keep in mind is the OP is talking about Hong Kong, one of the most congested cities on Earth, and specifically about HK Island itself. So it's useful to scale your advice as if talking about central London, Manhattan or Tokyo.
Thinking about that I would say gaming space is more essential in HK than a lot of other places because for most HK folks playing at home is not an option.
But rent will kill you.
So uh... I dunno?
Maybe start as a club/business, renting some sort of community hall or space on weekends, placing orders for members etc wtih no rent or inventory. Then see how it goes.
An Eon or two ago there was a guy from Hong Kong posting here, Snord. He talked about a club that got space from the Police club or something like that?
I think the first step might really be a semi-professional club, rent regular space and a locker for terrain, have a web site or even web store. Throw regular larger events, tournaments, mega battles etc.
And see if you can then justify sinking money into a lease and inventory.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
In general, you don't (make money), and can't (stay in business).
Most FLGS will go out of business in a year's time, after they burn through their seed money, and try to recoup some pennies on the back end via clearance sales.
95% of all businesses close in 5 years. As a small business owner, let me tell you there are really good reasons for this and not all of them are financial.
Having a business actually survive is the exception and not the rule.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
In general, you don't (make money), and can't (stay in business).
Most FLGS will go out of business in a year's time, after they burn through their seed money, and try to recoup some pennies on the back end via clearance sales.
95% of all businesses close in 5 years. As a small business owner, let me tell you there are really good reasons for this and not all of them are financial.
Having a business actually survive is the exception and not the rule.
Oh, no doubt.
However, most of the wargaming "stores" I've seen are *designed* to lose money. And then the expected result occurs, completely as I might have predicted.
The long-lasting stores are actually run like real retail stores with an emphasis on converting inexpensive floor space into recurring revenue.
That was my main point, and I don't see why anyone would object to it.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
In general, you don't (make money), and can't (stay in business).
Most FLGS will go out of business in a year's time, after they burn through their seed money, and try to recoup some pennies on the back end via clearance sales.
95% of all businesses close in 5 years. As a small business owner, let me tell you there are really good reasons for this and not all of them are financial.
Having a business actually survive is the exception and not the rule.
Oh, no doubt.
However, most of the wargaming "stores" I've seen are *designed* to lose money. And then the expected result occurs, completely as I might have predicted.
The long-lasting stores are actually run like real retail stores with an emphasis on converting inexpensive floor space into recurring revenue.
That was my main point, and I don't see why anyone would object to it.
You know, a lot of that sort of idea which has been recurrant in this thread, that is "Gaming stores bad, retail stores good" is exactly the business model GW have used for the last number of years (minimise gaming, maximise selling) and it doesn't seem to have benefited them at all.
GW are a bad example because they're offering a narrow range (of their own product, even) at full RRP.
They're often small and with limited gaming space, so they don't fit the two possible business models, either a kiosk focusing on high margin or high turnover items with low overhead or something more expansive that acts as a community focal point, and are somewhere in the middle doing both poorly.
I've noticed a few similarities are the FLGS's that have survived while I've lived in the same place...and we've had a GW store come and go within that period.
1. Sealed MTG. Duh. Also Pokemon and Yu-gi-Oh.
2. Community building and in-store play. Game stores don't make piles of money from walk-in customers. It's from the players that come in and spend money regularly, especially at launch and special events (something else MTG does well).
3. A friendly atmosphere. The stores that are dark holes in the wall populated by beardy trolls have mostly closed. The ones that are left are clean and organized, as well as inviting in person and on social media. One has 1 or 2 nights a months where they do a potluck meal during MTG or 40K events.
4. They are all pretty much 1-man operations, and it's obviously out of passion rather than for the money.
Deadshot wrote: You know, a lot of that sort of idea which has been recurrant in this thread, that is "Gaming stores bad, retail stores good" is exactly the business model GW have used for the last number of years (minimise gaming, maximise selling) and it doesn't seem to have benefited them at all.
Except GW isn't really a retail store like a private one. GW doesn't sell cards or X-Wing or any of the hotness.
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
In general, you don't (make money), and can't (stay in business).
Most FLGS will go out of business in a year's time, after they burn through their seed money, and try to recoup some pennies on the back end via clearance sales.
95% of all businesses close in 5 years. As a small business owner, let me tell you there are really good reasons for this and not all of them are financial.
Having a business actually survive is the exception and not the rule.
Oh, no doubt.
However, most of the wargaming "stores" I've seen are *designed* to lose money. And then the expected result occurs, completely as I might have predicted.
The long-lasting stores are actually run like real retail stores with an emphasis on converting inexpensive floor space into recurring revenue.
That was my main point, and I don't see why anyone would object to it.
No objection from me. I agree.
Sometimes it just feels like as a society we are conditioned to think that any business that stays opens is the norm. They are not the norm. They are the anomaly.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The long-lasting stores are actually run like real retail stores with an emphasis on converting inexpensive floor space into recurring revenue.
That was my main point, and I don't see why anyone would object to it.
I object because it's completely wrong. If you have a store based on efficiently selling product in the minimum (low-rent) floor space without space-hungry things like gaming tables you are doomed to failure. If you don't have any gaming space to offer then why am I ever going to come into your store? Everything you sell is cheaper online, so at most you're looking at selling me the occasional pot of paint when I need it ASAP to keep working on a project. And with that low-rent location you aren't going to be recruiting new customers because you're going to be stuck in a low-traffic location where hardly anyone will know your store exists. So great, your expenses are low but your revenue is zero. IOW, you go bankrupt and sell the dusty remains of your inventory on ebay in a desperate attempt to pay off your debts.
The only way you're going to get people to pay higher prices for stuff is if they're already in the store and don't want to screw around with looking elsewhere. And how do you get people into your store where you can sell them things? Lots of open gaming space so they keep coming back regularly.
The community builders grow their recurring customer base. There was one local store that did that years ago and even though it changed hands, the store kept its regulars for quite some time until they eventually slowly dwindled away because the new owner de-emphasized game play.
They cancelled FNM (the new owner liked how magic sold but could not be bothered to learn enough about the game to be able to run an event) and made the store close early enough each night that gaming there any time other than Saturday was pointless. People couldn't get off from work, get there, get a game in and clean up before the store closed and after a couple of times of "we had to pack up before the game was done because the store closed," they stopped coming.
It kept going for quite some time just based on the good will and community developed by the previous owner.
This is definitely a 'depending on' thing. Although The Games Den has an off-licence (came with the premises), we don't sell beer because we want to create a space that is safe for everyone; and alcohol has the potential to make that... difficult.
But definitely sell soft drinks, water, snacks, coffee, that sort of thing.
I just can't comprehend the sheer level of energy that would be required to run one well. Running even a quiet to medium store single handed is tiring, getting a lunch or toilet break difficult, cleaning/replen/cashing up all having to be done after hours. And then, after a standard retail day, having to make new terrain, get upcoming releases built and painted, plan events to keep people coming, reading up on rules for demoing new games, trying to find time for your own hobby. It's no wonder it burns people out. I know there are ways to minimise some of these, but still, fair play to all those machines that are able to do it, and do it well.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The long-lasting stores are actually run like real retail stores with an emphasis on converting inexpensive floor space into recurring revenue.
That was my main point, and I don't see why anyone would object to it.
I object because it's completely wrong. If you have a store based on efficiently selling product in the minimum (low-rent) floor space without space-hungry things like gaming tables you are doomed to failure. If you don't have any gaming space to offer then why am I ever going to come into your store? Everything you sell is cheaper online, so at most you're looking at selling me the occasional pot of paint when I need it ASAP to keep working on a project. And with that low-rent location you aren't going to be recruiting new customers because you're going to be stuck in a low-traffic location where hardly anyone will know your store exists. So great, your expenses are low but your revenue is zero. IOW, you go bankrupt and sell the dusty remains of your inventory on ebay in a desperate attempt to pay off your debts.
The only way you're going to get people to pay higher prices for stuff is if they're already in the store and don't want to screw around with looking elsewhere. And how do you get people into your store where you can sell them things? Lots of open gaming space so they keep coming back regularly.
Some people do just prefer buying local otherwise there'd be a lot of stores, not just gaming stores, that wouldn't exist thanks to the internet, though that's slowly changing and making it less viable.
General hobby stores (not wargaming) still exist in spite of people being able to get everything they sell from online stores for less. Seems to be a dying business though.
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JamesY wrote: I just can't comprehend the sheer level of energy that would be required to run one well. Running even a quiet to medium store single handed is tiring, getting a lunch or toilet break difficult, cleaning/replen/cashing up all having to be done after hours. And then, after a standard retail day, having to make new terrain, get upcoming releases built and painted, plan events to keep people coming, reading up on rules for demoing new games, trying to find time for your own hobby. It's no wonder it burns people out. I know there are ways to minimise some of these, but still, fair play to all those machines that are able to do it, and do it well.
I don't know of any stores that do it single handed other than GW stores. The local GW manages to get other people to paint things for the display shelves and I believe some of the stuff in there is his own personal stuff from before he was a manager.
But outside of GW, all the other stores have multiple people on. The store down the road I THINK it's actually the owner who spends his own time working on terrain for the gaming tables and running intro games while he employs other people to run the register and annoy customers.
Well, at The Games Den there's me (Store Manager), the Boss (owner), and a coterie of regulars who we trust enough to do stuff like keep an eye on things if one of us is in alone and needs to have a wee or nip across the road to grab a sausage roll or what-not.
Generally speaking it's my dream job - I'm quite literally working for free at the moment as the shop's only three months old - so I don't mind about spending all day in store or working six days a week. As for the Boss, well... what's sleep? Something that happens between the shop and Monster Hunter Time apparently.
Yeah like I said I know there are ways of easing the workload, it was more the sheer amount that you would need to be constantly doing that I was thinking. Even if there are two of you, days off and hols mean that there will be plenty of solo days. My local gw has 4 staff, and it seems that everytime I go in it's a one man day.
JamesY wrote: Yeah like I said I know there are ways of easing the workload, it was more the sheer amount that you would need to be constantly doing that I was thinking. Even if there are two of you, days off and hols mean that there will be plenty of solo days. My local gw has 4 staff, and it seems that everytime I go in it's a one man day.
Oh, yeh, definitely. F'r ex, I'm not in today for personal family reasons, but I'll be back in tomorrow. It's just something you've got to suck up and cope with, but... that's why you do it if you really wanna do it, not because it'll make you a zillionaire!
The moneymaker in my local flgs was mtg. 40k made near as much only because all the local 40k players were constantly growing up their armies and also buying things for their army they weren't going to use just to do their part keeping the doors open. the local ork player I think has over 40k points in them before upgrades, and another player can field 20k+ points in three different armies. But that is not the typical. The big things are sell mtg, be friendly, be helpful, be acomidating. You don't want to create a store, but a community.
This is definitely a 'depending on' thing. Although The Games Den has an off-licence (came with the premises), we don't sell beer because we want to create a space that is safe for everyone; and alcohol has the potential to make that... difficult.
But definitely sell soft drinks, water, snacks, coffee, that sort of thing.
As I said, it really does depend upon the demographic. That said, I do wish to note the following:
Convenience stories (including gas stations), so far as I'm aware, make most of their profit off of spur of the moment buys like drinks and snacks.
Practically all of the profit, from what I understand, from movie theaters comes from concessions.
Bars make money.
[And in fact, a bar is essentially the flip side of what an FLGS is. It's essentially a hang-out spot.]
I think it's unrealistic for a FLGS owner to expect to stay in business from big, relatively high cost items like 40k kits, board games, etc. Sure, some people will buy those. But fact is, I can get all of those things online, often enough, for a lot cheaper, even taking shipping and handling into account. [In fact, this is probably why MTG sells well compared to those things.]
If you are running an FLGS, you are squarely in the entertainment market. You are selling entertainment. But directly selling it (namely, charging people literally to sit down), I assure you, will drive people off/alienate people, especially if this isn't advertised at the front door.
And if you do go that route, better to go with a general membership fee than a per entry fee.
[Come to think of it, even something like a "x number of drinks minimum," which is an actual practice at some bars and clubs, would probably work pretty well.]
Understand, I know virtually nothing about business. So my advice should definitely be taken with just a grain of salt. This is all just idle speculation on my part.
But if you want to stay in business, you should be following the bar/convenience store/movie theater/video game arcade style of business model. Not the Toys-R-Us style of business model. Sorry, but the days of brick and mortar businesses like games shops are numbered. The internet exists now, and you aren't Wal-Mart.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And let me briefly go back to the beer scenario.
How much does a case of relatively cheap beer cost (say, bud light)? How much would it cost to store it and keep it refrigerated?
Now imagine you sell that off (and I'm low-balling this) for $2 per bottle/can.
Now consider this:
A fifth of jack daniels (roughly equal to 14 drinks) is about $20. Add a case of coca cola.
Only the coca cola needs to be refrigerated.
How much do you think you can charge for a jack and coke?
Yeah.
That's why bars stay in business.
If I were you, I'd be like:
Hey. Weekly D&D/Pathfinder games. I'll GM. 2 drink minimum per session (whether alcoholic or otherwise)."
Traditio wrote: Convenience stories (including gas stations), so far as I'm aware, make most of their profit off of spur of the moment buys like drinks and snacks.
Practically all of the profit, from what I understand, from movie theaters comes from concessions.
The difference is that theaters and convenience stores have much, much higher sales volume. They might make very little profit per item (especially at convenience stores), but because they have hundreds of people buying stuff every day the end result is decent money. A game store is not going to have that volume at all. Having 5-10 people each day buy a snack item with a tiny profit margin is not paying the rent. And that's assuming you can even get those 5-10 potential customers to buy your overpriced snacks. I never have, and the only game store I've seen selling food or drinks frequently is the one that sells beer. When people want food while gaming they usually go next door and get some real food. So, yeah, you stock some snacks with a long shelf life because why not take what little profit there is, but expecting anything more is a serious misunderstanding of the business.
The way a game store actually makes money is by bringing customers into the store with gaming space, tournaments and other events, etc. Then, once people are in the store, they buy stuff because buying a new model at a 10% discount with no shipping cost and no wait for delivery is better than buying it at a larger discount, losing the savings in shipping costs, and having to wait a week for it to arrive. Then you make some more money off parents buying gifts locally instead of screwing around online, people buying board games on impulse for their party that night, etc.
Here in Panama rent is so expensive it is impossible to open a miniature games club or store without card games. Even a 20 meter office space is very expensive. I miss old the real estate prices before 2005.
Peregrine wrote:The difference is that theaters and convenience stores have much, much higher sales volume. They make very little profit per item, but because they have hundreds of people buying stuff every day the end result is decent money. A game store is not going to have that volume at all. Having 5-10 people each day buy a snack item with a tiny profit margin is not paying the rent. And that's assuming you can even get those 5-10 potential customers to buy your overpriced snacks. I never have, and the only game store I've seen selling food or drinks frequently is the one that sells beer. When people want food while gaming they usually go next door and get some real food. So, yeah, you stock some snacks with a long shelf life because why not take what little profit there is, but expecting anything more is a serious misunderstanding of the business.
A couple of points:
1. Bars, I assume, enjoy considerably less traffic than movie theaters and convenience stores. They still stay in business, though. Why? Because a bar isn't just about the drink. It's also about having a place to hang out and drink.
I think that this is why FLGSs generally fail. Again, I'm sorry, but I think that, if one were to do the research, the evidence simply would show that FLGSs designed from the point of view of a traditional brick and mortar "we stock stuff here for you to buy" standpoint is simply doomed at this point in time. Some people are going to buy from an FLGS. But a lot of people, even potential customers, aren't. For the same reason that they wouldn't make purchases at a local bookstore.
This is just a guess, but I think that failing FLGSs don't incorporate the "hang out spot" aspect of the business into their business model.
A bar makes money because you are encouraged to hang out there over an extended period of time and keep buying drinks.
That's essentially what an FLGS is well suited for, but owners don't seem to fully capitalize on it.
2. Movies have ridiculously overpriced concessions. People still buy them. Why? Because they generally have a rule at the front door: "No outside concessions." Plenty of people ignore this rule, but a lot of people don't and are willing to fork over the money for concessions.
Why? Because you're going to be there for a while. Might as well grab a drink.
An FLGS would have a much easier time of this. How are you going to pull out a soft drink that you snuck in when the store manager is like 10 feet away?
Note, I'm not condoning $5 cans of coca cola. I'm simply pointing out that there are ways to bring in additional revenue from concessions.
The way a game store actually makes money is by bringing customers into the store with gaming space, tournaments and other events, etc. Then, once people are in the store, they buy stuff because buying a new model at a 10% discount with no shipping cost and no wait for delivery is better than buying it at a larger discount, losing the savings in shipping costs, and having to wait a week for it to arrive. Then you make some more money off parents buying gifts locally instead of screwing around online, people buying board games on impulse for their party that night, etc.
1. How well do the statistics actually support this as a good business model? Sure, I suppose some are willing to forgo the additional money in exchange for saving time on delivery. But just how many? How many in a given area?
2. Just consider 40k. How much shelf space would you need to carry all of the models that your customers reasonably might request?
At my FLGS, the owner regularly keeps a list of things that people request so that he can buy them from the GW webstore.
At any rate, note, I'm not saying that FLGSs should forgo making money on "big" items.
I'm simply pointing out that FLGSs could probably bring in more revenue if they capitalized on other aspects of the business.
One way that my FLGS capitalizes on those other aspects of the business is by charging an hourly rate to play games on the store's Nintendo Wii.
Migsulla is really the expert on this, he has two really great stores and even more important gives good advice.
One thing he cautioned, which I like, is unless you are a unique person with tons of experience in both running a game store AND running a cafe/bar/restaurant don't try to do both.
Don't forget in most places serving prepared food/drinks or alochol comes with a couple of phone books full of regulations.
Traditio wrote: 1. Bars, I assume, enjoy considerably less traffic than movie theaters and convenience stores. They still stay in business, though. Why? Because a bar isn't just about the drink. It's also about having a place to hang out and drink.
Bars stay in business because alcohol is expensive. You can make money when you're selling a bar full of people $50+ in drinks every night. You can't make money when you're selling five people a $1 candy bar or can of soda every night.
I think that this is why FLGSs generally fail. Again, I'm sorry, but I think that, if one were to do the research, the evidence simply would show that FLGSs designed from the point of view of a traditional brick and mortar "we stock stuff here for you to buy" standpoint is simply doomed at this point in time. Some people are going to buy from an FLGS. But a lot of people, even potential customers, aren't. For the same reason that they wouldn't make purchases at a local bookstore.
This is just a guess, but I think that failing FLGSs don't incorporate the "hang out spot" aspect of the business into their business model.
Yes, but now you're making a straw man of what I said. I was specifically arguing against the idea of being nothing more than a retail store where you can buy products. In fact, the post you quoted even states this explicitly, so you have no excuse for pretending that I'm neglecting the "hanging out" part of the business model.
2. Movies have ridiculously overpriced concessions. People still buy them. Why? Because they generally have a rule at the front door: "No outside concessions."
Movie theaters also have an event that keeps you in your seat for 2-3 hours at a time without any interruptions. If you want something to eat or drink during a movie you buy it at the theater. If you want something to eat or drink during a game event you're usually free to go next door to an actual restaurant and buy a sandwich or slice of pizza or whatever, eat it there, and then come back to your game event.
1. How well do the statistics actually support this as a good business model? Sure, I suppose some are willing to forgo the additional money in exchange for saving time on delivery. But just how many? How many in a given area?
You don't need statistics, it's just common sense and being a person who buys gaming stuff. The tradeoff between buying locally and buying online, assuming you aren't determined to buy locally to "support your local store", is that you get your stuff immediately in exchange for a small additional cost (or potentially even for less money, depending on discounts vs. shipping costs). Therefore the game store has two obvious goals:
1) Be an awesome place to play so that you have a loyal community where "support your local store" is something worth doing.
and
2) Get people into your store as often as possible to maximize the number of times they say "I could save $1 buying this online, or I could have it right this minute and go play with it tonight".
2. Just consider 40k. How much shelf space would you need to carry all of the models that your customers reasonably might request?
Gaming stores already do this. Of course it takes up shelf space, but what's your point? Are you honestly suggesting that game stores stop having inventory because they don't want to use up shelf space on it?
One way that my FLGS capitalizes on those other aspects of the business is by charging an hourly rate to play games on the store's Nintendo Wii.
Which is, again, a nice bit of money on the side but it's never going to pay your bills. Making an extra $5-10 here and there renting your video game console isn't going to keep you in business if you can't sell your primary products.
Also, frequent MTG drafts.
Also known as "selling game products to your customers", not just trying to make some money on snacks and drinks. There's a reason why I specifically mentioned MTG drafts as a big source of money.
As I said, it really does depend upon the demographic. That said, I do wish to note the following:
Convenience stories (including gas stations), so far as I'm aware, make most of their profit off of spur of the moment buys like drinks and snacks.
Correction. The big moneymaker for gas stations is cigarettes. You would be amazed how many regulars come in every morning just for a pack of cigarettes.
Hey all...noob to Dakka Dakka here, but not to games or FLGSs. My wife and I co-own a successful game store in Canada; we've been in business for nearly 8 years and have grown every year in terms of sales (mind you, we've pretty much reached the physical limit of our possible growth, based on our available floor space). We have about a 2000 sq ft store and sell a full range of "unplugged" game products e.g. board games, CCGs and other card games, party games, minis games (including GW), party games, etc. We have one full time and 3 part-time staff.
As an additional bit of cred, I oversaw various business development programs in the region for our provincial government before I retired from that, so I have a chunk of experience working with small, medium and large businesses. All this is to say I think I can speak with some credibility about this!
Here's my take on what it takes to run a successful FLGS:
1. Run it like a business. Yes, the games are fun and cool, but the reason most small businesses fail in their first year is because they don't do the business stuff necessary to keep the place running. Remitting taxes, doing payroll, keeping a good set of books, making sure things like insurance, rent, utilities, etc. are up to date, doing inventory, cleaning the store (especially bathrooms!) and so on are all absolutely essential...often quite tedious, onerous and generally a pain in the butt, but essential.
2. Having a good and diverse selection of products. MTG as a "revenue stream" keeps coming up and, sure, you can make a fair bit of money off it, but by itself, it's just not enough to reliably support a sustainable business. If MTG slows down and it's your focus to the point of being a crutch, then you're in trouble. We have about $300K in inventory at any given time, and MTG probably accounts for maybe $10-$20K of that (including single cards). Our best sellers by far are board and party games; we could run a profitable store selling nothing but those, in fact. GW and other minis are "nice to do" products. I enjoy minis games, so we carry them, and they make us money, but frankly, not a lot. And GW isn't even our biggest seller most months; it's usually Warmachine/Hordes, FFG Star Wars games, Heroclix or Flames of War, to varying degrees.
3. Be a destination. Having a strict "over the till" retail sales operation probably won't cut it in this era of online shopping. We devote about 30% of our floor space to game tables, and have many, many events, from board game nights to organized play for various game lines. In and of themselves, these things don't make us any real money (aside from sales of pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc. for which the margins are obscenely high). However, they bring people into the store again and again, forming a community, and encouraging people to buy product to participate.
It's not easy. It's a lot of work, and a LOT of that work has nothing directly to do with the fun of gaming. And the up-front investment is substantial (I'd suggest you need about $100K in inventory for a reasonable start-up that's going to have a decent selection of product; this is on top of fixed costs like rent, and the cost of fixtures like shelving, displays, point-of-sale system, etc.)
So there you have it. Run it like a business, have a diverse selection of products you tailor (as much as you can) to demand, and be a destination around which a community of gamers can develop. Again, a TON of work, but really satisfying when it all comes together!
Iapedus wrote: Due to the complete dearth of a decent FLGS in our immediate area (the last one having just closed its door and moved far, far away ), a friend and I briefly mused on the idea of setting up our own store. Having found a decent spot and put a simple business plan together, we are both utterly stumped at how an FLGS can make any money or indeed stay in business
Can anyone please enlighten us?
We had to make some assumptions when it came to the Trade Price offered by GW on their products (we assumed 30% lower than RRRP since other FLGS regularly offer 25% off) but even assuming this discount and a fairly unsustainable turnover (over 20,000 GBP per month) we still could not get the figures to work out.
You start out with building a business plan. Give it a lot of work, and let your team shoot it full of holes and continue to revamp it to the point of reasonable workable, and sustainable. You want a game store? Don't go in like a gamer, build a business.
Sales- Sell what your customers will buy, and add on carefully, only after market research, and keeping your ear to the ground on angles. You can get a couple of new games in the shop, but your going to have to demo, so that's where you go for your audience, and get their Privateers, demo teams, etc. to push the games. Of course you have to vet them, so they do not upset the balance of the business, and you can't let them start dictating sales.
You also have to go in for the social media angle. in 2016, word of mouth is supplemented with social media, it can make you or break you. Web presence, developed web page, Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Snapchat, etc... You have to almost have a dedicated web presence, and interlink in with the community that you have locally. Webpage, business cards, fliers, advertising...
You want a game store, you can also develop game clubs, or branch off to the development of community events. ANy way to generate sales is what you want to do. As much as GW is demonized, you need to take a page out of their book, and other companies to cultivate and develop your business in mindset, not just because your a gamer that wants to run a game store.
At the end of the day, AIDCC: Attention, Interest, Desire, Conviction, Close. You are running a business, run it like a business. run it interchangeably, and the time comes when you can change out games for widgets.
Strong start is a strong plan. Good luck, now get out there and sell.
hobojebus wrote: I'd really reconsider selling GW stuff they will force mandatory sales on you making you stock the new stuff before you can buy what you want, they won't easily refund stuff that's not selling and they won't let you have any kind of sale to clear stuff that's not moving.
And if you should do well they'll open a store nearby and screw you over on new releases so people go to them.
GW is scummy to flgs owners.
That's like one in a long list of reasons to hate them.
Grot 6 wrote: At the end of the day, AIDCC: Attention, Interest, Desire, Conviction, Close.
You're making it too complicated. AIDA...
A - Attention
I - Interest
D - Decision
A - Action
Required watch if you want to sell. We used to know this movie by heart. New school sales think this one is outdated.... I disagree, and can't quote Baldwin enough. Great find, BTW.
And- Yes, be careful with GW. You start making a name for yourself, get a good run, and they will magically, delicious, come in and open one of their gak stores nearby, selling by name only...
That's why you need to branch out, cultivate YOUR business model, and sell the games that sell, while at the same time cultivating interest in your product/ business. Once again, You are running a business, not your personal man-cave. (Which, by the way is how a lot of player/ game store owners run their store.)
Odd ball Hours, Inconsistence, and sloth.... Three wisemen of failure.
Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
Several things I feel are important.
Good lighting. Even if it is bright out, turn the lights on. A dark store seems cleaner.
Never put product on the floor. Never EVER!!!!!!!! why? Because it agains seems dirty. Unless it is discount, people seem to not care about that.
Dont guilt trip your customers, they should shop near you because they want to, not because you are yelling " I need to feed mah babies"
Have an "Adult gaming night" im 24 and I hate going into a store full of kids. I get they spend money. But once or twice a month, having an open play where adults can be adults, drink(not to heavily) and maybe curse, its fun. an arcade/bowling alley near us just did that, no one under 18 allowed pass 9, midnight 21 and olders can only stay
But once or twice a month, having an open play where adults can be adults, drink(not to heavily) and maybe curse, its fun. an arcade/bowling alley near us just did that, no one under 18 allowed pass 9, midnight 21 and olders can only stay
Not a bad idea, except for the part about drinking - I'd NEVER EVER let alcohol be a part of that - at all.
The F(ns)LGS I go to charges for tables - £3 per person for a day (which could be up to 8 hours, depending on the day of the week, but usually it's four or five for me). It also sells food - tea and coffee, toasties, panini, cakes, etc.
It works well enough to entice my friends and I to make the 45-minute drive to go there. No booze or swearing, though. I can get my fill of the latter at my local club anyway.
That bowling alley already had a liquor license, so doing the adult night isn't a big deal. Game store? If you're not going through kegs, don't bother.
OTOH, if you have a wargaming diner, with a beer license, and wanted to sell gaming stuff on the side, that could be a thing.
Or, if you had private BYOB parties by invitation only, with a registered guest list, that could also be a thing.
The problem, ( At least here in the states) is that when you go in for an alcohol license, you go into ATF territory/ local statutes/ and State Liquor License.
Which in turn equate to increased Insurance, and overhead. Then you have to discuss liquor supply/ licensing agreements with a distributor.
Of course, you could just "Sell" beers out of a cooler, but then your going to be walking a fine line that could end up intersecting your bottom line with a lawyer retainer/ increased insurance/ and worries of more then just Business.
At that point- Its not worth it. Alternative is BYOB, and have adult swim games. "Under 18 over there, back room, adults." Depending on your local laws, Beer, Wine, and Liquor are differently covered and you have to get the specifics for your area.
I like the idea of the BBQ/ Beers once a month thing. You can charge a set fee per plate, maybe something for beers/ drinks/ snacks. The beer thing at that point would be team building event, and no charged for the beers, your charging for the plates. You get a couple of games in while the BBQ is going, and you can alternatively set up party and board games. It doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway- Monitor your guests. Don't let them drive home drunk.
That's something to set up after you establish a community, though... Not a starter.
Grot 6 wrote: Of course, you could just "Sell" beers out of a cooler, but then your going to be walking a fine line that could end up intersecting your bottom line with a lawyer retainer/ increased insurance/ and worries of more then just Business.
I like the idea of the BBQ/ Beers once a month thing. You can charge a set fee per plate, maybe something for beers/ drinks/ snacks. The beer thing at that point would be team building event, and no charged for the beers, your charging for the plates. You get a couple of games in while the BBQ is going, and you can alternatively set up party and board games.
OMFG. "selling" beer out of a cooler? If anyone gets hurt and sues, you'll be fethed so hard. Not only are you likely to pay a fethton in damages and fees in the civil suit, you're very likely to go to jail from the criminal suit.
The BBQ party works because it's a private party (and be damn sure you have a registered guest list). But even then, providing alcohol is challenging. I think the only legally safe way to do that is to have it catered. Or BYOB.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That bowling alley already had a liquor license, so doing the adult night isn't a big deal. Game store? If you're not going through kegs, don't bother.
Nope, it went into business planning on that. after 12;00, you aint allowed if you aint over 21.
OMFG. "selling" beer out of a cooler? If anyone gets hurt and sues, you'll be fethed so hard. Not only are you likely to pay a fethton in damages and fees in the civil suit, you're very likely to go to jail from the criminal suit.
The BBQ party works because it's a private party (and be damn sure you have a registered guest list). But even then, providing alcohol is challenging. I think the only legally safe way to do that is to have it catered. Or BYOB.
Wow... it must me hard for a small business to handle the legal side of things in the USA?
Our Town Fests over here would probably be all shut down if our legal system had such a serious attitude towards alcohol.
The US still harbours a fairly... puritanical? ...attitude towards all intoxicants - even alcohol. 21yo to drink (and significant enforcement of that rule), you name it. Yeah. Alcohol is regulated much more strictly over there than it is this side of the Atlantic.
OTOH from what I've heard your idea of a town fest wouldn't exactly fly down here either, you Germans are off fairly far towards the other end of the scale.
OMFG. "selling" beer out of a cooler? If anyone gets hurt and sues, you'll be fethed so hard. Not only are you likely to pay a fethton in damages and fees in the civil suit, you're very likely to go to jail from the criminal suit.
The BBQ party works because it's a private party (and be damn sure you have a registered guest list). But even then, providing alcohol is challenging. I think the only legally safe way to do that is to have it catered. Or BYOB.
Wow... it must me hard for a small business to handle the legal side of things in the USA?
Our Town Fests over here would probably be all shut down if our legal system had such a serious attitude towards alcohol.
Sadly, yes . Though many of our tourneys/events have bars and often a waitress bartender to come around during rounds. Hotels usually learn after the first wargaming event that these gamers here, they will bring money into the hotel for food and booze (even though many players are bringing at least some of their own food and booze for party).
What's been said about the business side of the FLGS from various posters, is excellent, sound advice, so I have nothing to add to that.
I will, however, warn about the social side of the FLGS. Having been in various FLGS over the years, there are two types of customer you should be aware of.
1. The guy that never washes, who literally stinks the place up because his or her personal hygiene is so bad. Tempting as it is to keep a hose behind the counter, it's best to have a quiet word or drop a hint or two. And if nothing changes, ban them. It may seem harsh, but there is nothing worse than somebody stinking up your store - it is very off putting.
2. The leech. The leech or leeches are the kind of people who do ZERO for your store. They turn up, they sit there all day every day, and they contribute nothing. They don't buy anything, they pass judgement on everything, they insist on playing loud, gak music, and they literally suck the life out of a FLGS. They get into a clique and they create a frosty atmosphere.
If people start exhibiting these symptoms, turf them out.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
I think it's a decent business model.
A local store charges a few bucks to use a table (less than Ant suggested) and I think it's fair. Sure you can play at home, but you're unlikely to have ONE table at home that is as large and looks as nice as any of the dozen or so the store has to choose from and your home is unlikely large enough to support an event with 5-10+ games running simultaneously.
It's probably going to put off little kids, but for most adults the cost of using a table is similar to a large coffee.
They also sell snacks, I don't know what the health and safety regulations are on food but I imagine if it's all prepackaged stuff it can't be too bad.
They do also have booze, but I believe it's limited to private events.
Grot 6 wrote: The problem, ( At least here in the states) is that when you go in for an alcohol license, you go into ATF territory/ local statutes/ and State Liquor License.
Which in turn equate to increased Insurance, and overhead. Then you have to discuss liquor supply/ licensing agreements with a distributor.
Selling booze in the store would also require the store to be absolutely a "nobody under 21 allowed" place in many areas, just from a socially/morally acceptable standpoint. Here in Texas, for example, once one parent gets a whiff that their little Johnny is playing in a store where people are also drinking beer, then you'll find yourself in front of the town council getting your liquor license revoked so fast your head will spin. After all, you're a game store, a place for kids, because grown ups don't play games, so how dare you corrupt our kids, won't someone think of the children?
Regardless of the licensing issues I don't necessarily think booze is a good idea for a games store. Even if you make sure you don't sell enough to get people wasted, tipsy people are soooo much more likely to break stuff, spill things, get stuff dirty and create problems. Whether it's the store owned stuff that you're going to have to spend money replacing/cleaning or things other customers own, it's bad either way.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Regardless of the licensing issues I don't necessarily think booze is a good idea for a games store. Even if you make sure you don't sell enough to get people wasted, tipsy people are soooo much more likely to break stuff, spill things, get stuff dirty and create problems. Whether it's the store owned stuff that you're going to have to spend money replacing/cleaning or things other customers own, it's bad either way.
Agreed and QFT. Hard enough to keep a game store running to even consider the idea, TBH. You are more served to work out how to be more inclusive, and generate more interest then to be indirectly divisive.
I feel I should add that it might be a good idea to consider selling comics and books (sci-fi and fantasy), in addition to the games, collectibles and so on. That's what the shops in Norway and Denmark commonly do, and they manage to stay afloat.
As a customer, I'll often walk in looking for a specific author, and then impulse buy game related products, like paint or stuff I don't need.
Stocking books is also a great way to draw people in, who wouldn't otherwise be interested in games, but who've taken an interest in fantasy literature, or are looking for suitable gifts.
dglad wrote:Here's my take on what it takes to run a successful FLGS:
1. Run it like a business.
2. Having a good and diverse selection of products.
3. Be a destination
So there you have it. Run it like a business, have a diverse selection of products you tailor (as much as you can) to demand, and be a destination around which a community of gamers can develop. Again, a TON of work, but really satisfying when it all comes together!
Yes. That. Absolutely. Exalted, Liked, etc etc. It's a business, make sure it actually is one.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I will, however, warn about the social side of the FLGS. Having been in various FLGS over the years, there are two types of customer you should be aware of.
1. The guy that never washes
2. The leech.
If people start exhibiting these symptoms, turf them out.
Yep. It's also worth putting cheap deodorant in your toilet, or even selling it (!) if you have a particularly bad problem. As for the leech; a pay-to-use-the-table policy can dissuade 'em!
Zingraff wrote:I feel I should add that it might be a good idea to consider selling comics and books (sci-fi and fantasy), in addition to the games, collectibles and so on. That's what the shops in Norway and Denmark commonly do, and they manage to stay afloat.
Absolutely; diversify your stock whilst keeping it within a particular niche. Don't start selling, say, fishing gear - you're an FLGS. Sell geeky stuff, sell toys, sell games, sell figures, stuff that your customers will buy anyway - but now they'll buy from you.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
Really really depends where you are. Suburban Virginia, yeah I'd think twice about paying for a table.
Manhattan? London? Hong Kong? You're probably living in a glorified closet or 2 hours outside the city. Totally fair to charge for space.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
At home you might not have as good table and terrain though...Or ANY board.
Good luck fitting 6'x4' board at my home. No free space big enough for that. And my terrain isn't particularly stellar looking.
I would rather pay for actual usage than pay tax for supporting FLGS which might or might not actually offer something worth visiting. If it's just miniatures why would I pay more than elsewhere? I get same service from both stores.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
At home you might not have as good table and terrain though...Or ANY board.
Good luck fitting 6'x4' board at my home. No free space big enough for that. And my terrain isn't particularly stellar looking.
I would rather pay for actual usage than pay tax for supporting FLGS which might or might not actually offer something worth visiting. If it's just miniatures why would I pay more than elsewhere? I get same service from both stores.
This is where games that use smaller tables shine. A 6x4 is hard to fit. A 4x4 is more manageable. A 3x3 can fit on a small dining table.
-Loki- wrote: This is where games that use smaller tables shine. A 6x4 is hard to fit. A 4x4 is more manageable. A 3x3 can fit on a small dining table.
Why you think legends of old west is my current favourite?-)
But that's why I wouldn't mind paying for playing room. It offers me something I DON'T have. It's new service that's actually worth paying for.
But simply having game store with miniatures available...Eeeh. That ain't worth paying. I would be paying more for the benefit of having to deliberately go long way off rather than order them via internet with no quarantee they have more in stock than online store(even worse find out stock level by going there and then have to wait for store to get ANYWAY) and quite possibly worse selection(good luck finding store with vallejo air here...).
So in short: FLGS's provide worse service in terms of buying miniatures than online stores yet demand more price. Something ain't making sense here...
Now have good playing area and I'll pay from that no problemo. Have in stuff that's not too expensive for impulse purchaces or what are more likely to be more pressing in terms of needs(especially paints) and I'll also be bringing in buying items from there.
But expecting me to buy 150€ items without offering anything beyond shop ain't going to fly. That's worse service than online stores for higher price. Basic marketing tells that ain't going to fly well.
All this stuff keeps reinforcing to me why in the USA I think people need to go back to gaming clubs that meet in rented facilities (church halls or lodges or the like) and move away from shops. No more having to feel like a heel because you don't buy everything from the shop, no getting dirty looks if you want to play something the shop doesn't/can't/won't stock, no being told there's no room to play because there's some MtG pre-release going on and there's a hundred folks there tonight, no having to set up specific days to reserve space at limited tables. A gaming club broadens one's horizons because there's always that chance someone will be interested in something new or buy it, and then they can bring it to the club to share with everyone else.
It's just a shame that US gamers are so ingrained in the idea that you go to a game shop, you buy from the game shop, you play at the game shop. A game club becomes much more like a social private event. I've seen way too often people at a game shop get very territorial and extremely clique-ish. Mention another game store? You get dirty looks as though you're trying to "steal" business. Order online because the store has very little stock and takes weeks to order anything? You're a donkey-cave for not supporting the store. Want to play a game that the store doesn't have with your buddies? Can't have that, they don't sell it the store can't profit from it. Want a game on Friday? Sucks to be you, Friday Night Magic the place will be booked solid.
In a club nobody will complain if you order stuff off eBay or from discounters. Nobody will give you dirty looks if you want to inquire about people interested in some "fringe" game that isn't widely known, in fact chances are someone else there might be interested in it too. Hell, it can even be like a combination game day and like a tailgate party; everyone brings some sort of snack food (and then it can turn into almost a potluck), everyone has fun. I have dreams about this kind of thing sometimes, and they are beautiful, I regret I'm not wealthy enough to have a big house with dedicated space or I swear I would have a large game room with several tables available and then a "lounge" room with comfy chairs and couches and bookcases with magazine subscriptions and relevant novels on hand for club members (e.g. for 40k there'd be a club subscription to White Dwarf always available, or Black Library novels or even Codexes. For historical gaming there would period books and the like).
All this stuff keeps reinforcing to me why in the USA I think people need to go back to gaming clubs that meet in rented facilities (church halls or lodges or the like) and move away from shops. No more having to feel like a heel because you don't buy everything from the shop, no getting dirty looks if you want to play something the shop doesn't/can't/won't stock, no being told there's no room to play because there's some MtG pre-release going on and there's a hundred folks there tonight, no having to set up specific days to reserve space at limited tables. A gaming club broadens one's horizons because there's always that chance someone will be interested in something new or buy it, and then they can bring it to the club to share with everyone else.
It's just a shame that US gamers are so ingrained in the idea that you go to a game shop, you buy from the game shop, you play at the game shop. A game club becomes much more like a social private event. I've seen way too often people at a game shop get very territorial and extremely clique-ish. Mention another game store? You get dirty looks as though you're trying to "steal" business. Order online because the store has very little stock and takes weeks to order anything? You're a donkey-cave for not supporting the store. Want to play a game that the store doesn't have with your buddies? Can't have that, they don't sell it the store can't profit from it. Want a game on Friday? Sucks to be you, Friday Night Magic the place will be booked solid.
In a club nobody will complain if you order stuff off eBay or from discounters. Nobody will give you dirty looks if you want to inquire about people interested in some "fringe" game that isn't widely known, in fact chances are someone else there might be interested in it too. Hell, it can even be like a combination game day and like a tailgate party; everyone brings some sort of snack food (and then it can turn into almost a potluck), everyone has fun. I have dreams about this kind of thing sometimes, and they are beautiful, I regret I'm not wealthy enough to have a big house with dedicated space or I swear I would have a large game room with several tables available and then a "lounge" room with comfy chairs and couches and bookcases with magazine subscriptions and relevant novels on hand for club members (e.g. for 40k there'd be a club subscription to White Dwarf always available, or Black Library novels or even Codexes. For historical gaming there would period books and the like).
That's why I like stores that just charge a few bucks for using the tables. No dirty looks or feeling guilty for playing with models I didn't buy in the store because the tables themselves are a service I'm renting.
The idea of having to buy from a store to feel welcome enough to play there is rather unappealing, I often go months or even years without buying any models, am I going to be made to feel unwelcome because my last purchase was 6 months ago?
I've also never really been a huge clubber, I prefer just having a group of gaming friends and organising gaming days off the cuff rather than trying to organise an event big enough to rent a whole hall.
So a store that charges a small fee for their tables is perfect for me.
All this stuff keeps reinforcing to me why in the USA I think people need to go back to gaming clubs that meet in rented facilities (church halls or lodges or the like) and move away from shops. No more having to feel like a heel because you don't buy everything from the shop, no getting dirty looks if you want to play something the shop doesn't/can't/won't stock, no being told there's no room to play because there's some MtG pre-release going on and there's a hundred folks there tonight, no having to set up specific days to reserve space at limited tables. A gaming club broadens one's horizons because there's always that chance someone will be interested in something new or buy it, and then they can bring it to the club to share with everyone else.
It's just a shame that US gamers are so ingrained in the idea that you go to a game shop, you buy from the game shop, you play at the game shop. A game club becomes much more like a social private event. I've seen way too often people at a game shop get very territorial and extremely clique-ish. Mention another game store? You get dirty looks as though you're trying to "steal" business. Order online because the store has very little stock and takes weeks to order anything? You're a donkey-cave for not supporting the store. Want to play a game that the store doesn't have with your buddies? Can't have that, they don't sell it the store can't profit from it. Want a game on Friday? Sucks to be you, Friday Night Magic the place will be booked solid.
In a club nobody will complain if you order stuff off eBay or from discounters. Nobody will give you dirty looks if you want to inquire about people interested in some "fringe" game that isn't widely known, in fact chances are someone else there might be interested in it too. Hell, it can even be like a combination game day and like a tailgate party; everyone brings some sort of snack food (and then it can turn into almost a potluck), everyone has fun. I have dreams about this kind of thing sometimes, and they are beautiful, I regret I'm not wealthy enough to have a big house with dedicated space or I swear I would have a large game room with several tables available and then a "lounge" room with comfy chairs and couches and bookcases with magazine subscriptions and relevant novels on hand for club members (e.g. for 40k there'd be a club subscription to White Dwarf always available, or Black Library novels or even Codexes. For historical gaming there would period books and the like).
That's why I like stores that just charge a few bucks for using the tables. No dirty looks or feeling guilty for playing with models I didn't buy in the store because the tables themselves are a service I'm renting.
The idea of having to buy from a store to feel welcome enough to play there is rather unappealing, I often go months or even years without buying any models, am I going to be made to feel unwelcome because my last purchase was 6 months ago?
I've also never really been a huge clubber, I prefer just having a group of gaming friends and organising gaming days off the cuff rather than trying to organise an event big enough to rent a whole hall.
So a store that charges a small fee for their tables is perfect for me.
I wouldn't mind that if there was like a "game store" that had a lot (and i do mean a LOT) of table space, then it basically fills the role of the gaming club anyways where you're renting the space. Too often though I see stores with not a lot of room, so it's cramped at best. Of course part of that is also rent factors and the like; I recall a game store near me that moved to a very large space, but then put like geeky clothing and those bobblehead-looking toys that you see (the ones that have all sorts of different characters from different movies and shows) such in about half of it, so it still felt cramped even though they had a good number of tables, and it didn't work out so they closed shop a few months later. But it was a good idea at the time, to have a lot of space for gaming and they even had like a small area with soft chairs where you could sit and read. That's the sort of thing I think more shops need to move to, but the issue is how you make money again. You'd have to focus IMHO on your card games and such, and charge for tables (maybe offer a discount to "clubs" or the like who do it often?) but that way you don't throw people out when you have your Magic events because ideally you have enough room to accommodate both.
The problem I see is that too many game stores focus on how to get sales, when they know they can't really compete with online anyways (although there are exceptions. Like one store by me has a 20% discount on everything, including Warmachine stuff so they can offer a better discount now than online since PP curbed that, and that works for them as I buy/order Warmachine stuff from them), but they still try to sell product instead of offer space, if that makes sense. I still do feel there are a lot of clique-like mentalities though in shops, even if not from the shop themselves but from the patrons who seem to consider it a gang/turf thing and resent "others" from showing up especially from like other game stores or showing up to try and advertise a different game than the store's "pet" game. That's a people problem, but it's one I see a lot and I think that only exists in an environment when you feel like you're a customer and not a member, if that makes sense. Like I can't imagine that happening in a game club (someone showing up with a new game and basically being told to feth off nobody wants to play that gak here) but I've seen it happen (not quite as rude) in a game store environment.
Yeah I think a store renting tables is a completely different business model. The stores I've seen do it manage it because they are in low rent locations which allow them to have a large space with a lot of tables and they help spread the word by offering the space to clubs, while also renting individual tables if there's just a couple of people who want to play a game.
But it sort of goes against the common thought of trying to get in a prime location, rather you have to accept what is likely a less favourable location and bring the gamers to you.
One local store seemed to be doing it successfully for a while but shut down I THINK because the landlord significantly raised the rent when the lease came up for renewal and the store could no longer remain profitable. Another was in the US and it was out of the way, down a back road off a major highway, and they had a huge amount of space for all sorts of things including model train displays, scalextric tracks and RC car tracks. But they had heaps of people coming through (though i think a large portion were there for the RC cars).
I actually used to like playing at GW stores when they had 3 or 4 guys running it because I could buy the models elsewhere and play in the GW store, these days with it being a 1 man store I feel a bit guilty doing that (though the manager is a pretty cool guy and is typically happy to let you play with stuff you got elsewhere and encourages FW even though he makes no money off it himself).
Or you could sell food and drinks on the side. The people who use the tables for gaming, might feel better about it, if they buy their coffee from you, while they're there.
My local board games club meets in a coffee shop down town, and while we're there, most of us buy coffee, pastries and so on.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
I think it's a decent business model.
A local store charges a few bucks to use a table (less than Ant suggested) and I think it's fair. Sure you can play at home, but you're unlikely to have ONE table at home that is as large and looks as nice as any of the dozen or so the store has to choose from and your home is unlikely large enough to support an event with 5-10+ games running simultaneously.
It's probably going to put off little kids, but for most adults the cost of using a table is similar to a large coffee.
They also sell snacks, I don't know what the health and safety regulations are on food but I imagine if it's all prepackaged stuff it can't be too bad.
They do also have booze, but I believe it's limited to private events.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
Really really depends where you are. Suburban Virginia, yeah I'd think twice about paying for a table.
Manhattan? London? Hong Kong? You're probably living in a glorified closet or 2 hours outside the city. Totally fair to charge for space.
AtomAnt wrote: Maybe something to think about is charging to use tables. Heck I have to pay by the game for using a pool table. Why not just charge $5/hr to use a 40k table. 20 bucks for a game (which can be 10/person) seems pretty reasonable for a evening of fun. Lord knows my bar tabs make $20 seem pretty trivial.
Something just seem off when you have to pay to use a table. I may as well play at home for free. Of course, I buy where I play. But to pay to play as well? Instant turn off. Then I feel since I am paying for a table, I can go else where and buy the stuff cheaper else where then.
Give me a reason to come to your store. Don't give me a reason to shop else where.
At home you might not have as good table and terrain though...Or ANY board.
Good luck fitting 6'x4' board at my home. No free space big enough for that. And my terrain isn't particularly stellar looking.
I would rather pay for actual usage than pay tax for supporting FLGS which might or might not actually offer something worth visiting. If it's just miniatures why would I pay more than elsewhere? I get same service from both stores.
Some great points here, but again I am going by my experience here. I live in a city of 90 000 population. We had like 3 game stores in the early 2000s but they closed down. So for over 10 years I had to drive 1/2 one way to buy GW or any mini products. Now a gaming cafe I guess is the best way to call it, open up. In the beginning he didn't sell any GW product but it was a place for Nerds and Geeks to hang out or go to to do nerdy/geeky things like play Magic, mini games or even board games so I still had to do all that driving to get the product I wanted. Now he sells GW products but will not give a discount sadly, but the good thing is, that has opened up gaming opportunity and we have discovered that there is about 10 or so people in the population of 90 000 who play 40K. So now it's nice to actually be able to have some game now. I have the mind set, if when ever possible, first support the local community I live in. Second I believe, buy where I play in. Third I do have to think about myself and for #1 and #2 it has to be worth it for me to do so. So if I have to pay full price for GW product, then I believe I should be able to play for free and not pay to pay to play. If I have to pay to play, I may as well drive 1/2 hour away and get free GW products once I save enough "store points" or drive 1 hour away and pay US listed prices here in Canada.
So if he started charging to play as well as paying full price for GW products I would feel that I don't have to buy from him anymore since it's not worth it for me. Why should I support the local community and buy where I play when they won't give out discounts and just keeps asking for more and more money? The way I see it, either give discounts and charge to play, or charge full price but don't charge to play. After all if I am paying to play, I have fulfilled my bargin by giving him money to play so I don't owe him anything now by purchasing what he sells. But since he doesn't charge to play, I feel it's only "right" to buy from him so he can stay in business. After all you are making more money by charging full price of GW product than you would from a bottle of water or coffee or what not.
As for playing on spectacular terrain. We don't have that. We have a good selection of terrain but nothing great that it's worth paying for.
Davor wrote: So if he started charging to play as well as paying full price for GW products I would feel that I don't have to buy from him anymore since it's not worth it for me.
But that's kind of the point. Separate the "gaming" business from the "selling models" business.
One thing that has been suggested in previous threads is to charge for tables but also have tokens or similar that you get for buying models that can be redeemed on the tables. So it might cost $5 to use a table, or if you buy a $50 kit you get 10 tokens which are worth $1 for playing on the gaming tables.
One local hobby store has "points", you get roughly 1 point per $1 you spend and you can redeem them on future purchases at a rate of 10 points = $1. You could do something similar in a gaming store, but instead of 10 points = $1, make it 10 points = $1 on future purchases or $2 for use on the tables.
These are all possible solutions. Personally I don't feel guilty at all not buying stock from the store if I'm paying $5 to use a table and that's the way I like it.
People like me simply don't buy miniatures frequently anymore so I don't want to have to feel I MUST buy models to be allowed to use the tables.
And $5 for using a table is feth all as far as I'm concerned, if I go to a pool hall I'll often spend $10-20 if I'm using a crappy table or more if I'm using a good table in addition to the booze I'm buying.
As for playing on spectacular terrain. We don't have that. We have a good selection of terrain but nothing great that it's worth paying for.
Well if you're going to charge for tables you have to put the effort in to making good terrain.
On the flip side, if you're NOT charging for tables there's very little motivation to put the effort in to make good terrain
Davor wrote: Some great points here, but again I am going by my experience here. I live in a city of 90 000 population. We had like 3 game stores in the early 2000s but they closed down. So for over 10 years I had to drive 1/2 one way to buy GW or any mini products.
Try double that and you know what it's for me. And then I go there and am told "sorry, don't have it. We'll order it. Takes week to come".
Why should I PAY for this? I'm basically paying more for worse service. Anybody with business sense knows that's not going to fly well with customers.
I still say adult night should be a thing. Like, late Friday night magic. Like, from ten too two, no one under 21 be allowed. Even with no drinking, not being near teens is a great thing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I still say adult night should be a thing. Like, late Friday night magic. Like, from ten too two, no one under 21 be allowed. Even with no drinking, not being near teens is a great thing.
There's actually not a huge many teens in my area anymore, they're mostly mid to late 20's and early 30's.
It'd be a bit of a douche move to ban the minority of teenagers, and could get awkward if a lot of your customers are around 21 anyway.
It only really makes sense if you're offering booze and it'd create legal issues (in which case it'd be 18 in most sane countries that allow people to drink before 21 ).
I haven't read through the whole thread, but if you haven't yet come across this, I'd highly recommend reading Gary Ray's blog about his game store in Concord, California.
He provides a tremendous amount of insight and helpful information about running a game store. Even though it's USA-based, it's probably well worth the time for you to go back and read his past posts!
And I haven't seen anyone yet answer your question on wholesale vs. retail pricing for games (again, haven't read the whole thread...!). Here in the US, a game store can expect to pay 50-55% of the MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price), i.e., so a game you sell for $100 will probably cost you $50 to $55 to buy it. That varies some, but Games Workshop, for example, is fairly consistently 55% of MSRP for retailers.
Good luck!
Automatically Appended Next Post: haha! And I see that the guy RIGHT ABOVE ME posts the same blog.
Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!
Gen.Steiner wrote: Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!
The UK and US though are so very different in almost every way that a guide for the US will be of mixed benefit for the UK.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Yeh, that blog is absolutely stellar; I've read it a few times in the past and it is chock full of good and sound advice. A shame that I'd forgotten about it, and well done to both of the above posters for bringing it up!
The UK and US though are so very different in almost every way that a guide for the US will be of mixed benefit for the UK.
While that's true, the general principles are worth taking on board.
I feel the op needs to try and find out what did the store before him did wrong. Was it a issue with sales or cash flow is something he needs to find out!
The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.
Grot 6 wrote: The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.
Generally it's not a great Bussniess Plan, since you are splinting your resources between being a pup and a gaming store. Means you will not be able to do either well, or have one half get over shadowed by the other. Not to mention the question of how you would even set up the lay out of the store to accomodate both Gameing store product, the Food/drink, and seating/play space.
This is why there are more "clubs" down under AREN'T located in stores than there are clubs that are.
Two clubs I play at allow the adults to have booze whilst playing with mandollies. We can't supply the minors with it (buy it for them OR give it to them) but responsible drinking and gaming is a thing. We aren't beholden to a store for gaming space - but we still support them and use them for stuff now and then (we just don't do most of our gaming there).
Most stores can't do it because of licensing restrictions. You need one kind of permit to sell alcohol (eg - the UK "off license" or our "bottle shops") and a separate one if you wish to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Neither is cheap and both require background checks.
It's also just a waste of time, space, and resources. Stock soft drinks, water, gaming snacks, and be done with it. You want diversity in product (card games! board games! miniatures! collectibles! toys! comics! books! rpgs! etc), Not food and drink.
chromedog wrote: This is why there are more "clubs" down under AREN'T located in stores than there are clubs that are.
Two clubs I play at allow the adults to have booze whilst playing with mandollies. We can't supply the minors with it (buy it for them OR give it to them) but responsible drinking and gaming is a thing. We aren't beholden to a store for gaming space - but we still support them and use them for stuff now and then (we just don't do most of our gaming there).
Honestly I don't really want to play with people who are drinking unless they're my close friends (rather than random club people I barely know) or there's very strict and clearly understood rules regarding "stay the feth away from my models".
Most stores can't do it because of licensing restrictions. You need one kind of permit to sell alcohol (eg - the UK "off license" or our "bottle shops") and a separate one if you wish to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Neither is cheap and both require background checks.
My understanding was that getting a BYO license in Australia wasn't terribly difficult or expensive and would allow people to bring booze for club events if they wanted. The license required to actually sell booze I think costs enough that you'd want to be selling at least a handful of drinks each night to make it worth while, as long as you aren't open late (I think 11pm?) and don't have gambling I don't think the cost of a license is too insane. Though if you do catch an infraction the non-compliance fees go through the roof very quickly (selling to an underage person, selling to an already drunk person or allowing drunken and disorderly behaviour). So continuing to sell booze after receiving an infraction is costly to the point where you have to be selling a lot to make it worth while.
I have a feeling most stores are probably like me and simply don't want to go down that road at all. Too much hassle, too much risk (if a drunk person walks in off the street and you serve them it can result in a very costly infraction, and while 99% of people might only ever get tipsy dealing with the 1% who wants to get black out drunk can cause real problems). Add to that even tipsy people are terrible for knocking things over, bumping in to stuff, making stuff grotty and so on.
It is also off putting for customers who don't drink and don't like hanging around people who are drinking or don't like their kids hanging around people who are drinking. Wargaming isn't really a business where you can afford to be exclusionary.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Wargaming isn't really a business where you can afford to be exclusionary.
ABSOLUTELY.
Make your shop a safe space for all. No swearing, no drinking, none of that stuff. It encourages families, and children, and children means pester power, present buying, and sales.
Also makes things easier for you, too! No drunks to deal with.
Grot 6 wrote: The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.
Counter-argument: the largest (and very successful) game store in my area sells beer and people love it. They've gone for the high-end beer market rather than the cheap "get drunk asap" kind so that's probably a factor, but there seem to be a lot of people interested in having a beer while they play their games.
Peregrine, what part of the US are you in? There seems to be more of a beer culture where you are than in other places. Over here, I would expect coffee to be the more popular choice among gamers.
Wow... it must me hard for a small business to handle the legal side of things in the USA?
Our Town Fests over here would probably be all shut down if our legal system had such a serious attitude towards alcohol.
And you've just explained the state of the US economy.
Political commentary aside, there is a small but growing number of "gaming pubs" in the US. The difference is that they are structured as pubs that organize and offer gaming as an attraction, not as game stores that serve food and alcohol. Food service and liquor laws are complex in the US, and the business has to be built around them for legal and insurance reasons. You become subject to health inspections, certifying servers, a local vote for a liquor license, etc. Then you have to do enough business to cover the overhead of the costs involved...which serving a few beers on Friday Night Magic and 40K night isn't going to do by itself. Now you're talking a larger business operation, which is beyond the typical 1-2 man staff of an FLGS.
Not that it would be impossible (there are still a lot of hole-in-the-wall bars and pubs in the US), but combining a pub business with the retail operations of a game shop...and having the floor space and clientele to do both, would be very challenging.
Grot 6 wrote: The beer in the store thing doesn't work in the states. I'm sorry, but that's just one of those pipe dreams people are pushing. You are not going to sell beers or booze in a place that has minors in it. That works in Pub land in England, because quite frankly, England has a culture that supports it. IT DOES NOT WORK IN THE STATES.
Counter-argument: the largest (and very successful) game store in my area sells beer and people love it. They've gone for the high-end beer market rather than the cheap "get drunk asap" kind so that's probably a factor, but there seem to be a lot of people interested in having a beer while they play their games.
How do they get it to sink with the gaming crowd? I want to hear how to make it work, because quite frankly it doesn't anywhere else, aside from private residence clubs. Going to have to honestly be the particular crowd, I have not seen this go well in several iterations, and I will go on and say that you are the exception if it does in fact work for your area.
Local brews, and high end ones might be something that I have not factored, ( Not for getting drunk, just a local community flavor.) On the whole, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more about it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: IDK, I just dislike it when im in the middle of a game and little timmy has to leave. I just feel adult only nights would be a great thing.
I don't see how restricting it to big timmys solves that. Adults are more likely to have pressing emergencies come up out of nowhere than kids. Kids generally know when they're going to be picked up, and can schedule games around that. Adults might be in the middle of a game and suddenly significant other requires them home for emergency/work calls and they need to leave/etc.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Peregrine, what part of the US are you in? There seems to be more of a beer culture where you are than in other places. Over here, I would expect coffee to be the more popular choice among gamers.
The store is in Durham, NC. And there's definitely a "good beer" culture around here, at least with the white middle-class 20-30ish demographic that makes up the majority of gamers.
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Grot 6 wrote: How do they get it to sink with the gaming crowd? I want to hear how to make it work, because quite frankly it doesn't anywhere else, aside from private residence clubs. Going to have to honestly be the particular crowd, I have not seen this go well in several iterations, and I will go on and say that you are the exception if it does in fact work for your area.
I'm not really sure what you're asking here. They didn't do anything to make it work, they just have beer taps at the snack counter along with all the usual stuff. People who want to have a beer with their game buy a beer.
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-Loki- wrote: I don't see how restricting it to big timmys solves that. Adults are more likely to have pressing emergencies come up out of nowhere than kids. Kids generally know when they're going to be picked up, and can schedule games around that. Adults might be in the middle of a game and suddenly significant other requires them home for emergency/work calls and they need to leave/etc.
On the other hand adults have control over their own schedules. If a kid's parents say it's time to leave for dinner at 5pm then the kid is leaving at 5pm even if it's the last turn of the game and things are really interesting. An adult in the same position can say "ok, dinner's going to be a bit late" and finish the game. And adults are much less likely to be told they aren't allowed to stay out until 10-11pm, if you're talking about playing at a local independent store instead of GW's awful stores.
Yeah, I have had it happen several times. A kid plays a game with me, about turn two he leaves cause his mommy says its time. So I am left High and Dry after an hour of the only night I can play. So yeah, that sucks honestly.
Peregrine wrote: On the other hand adults have control over their own schedules. If a kid's parents say it's time to leave for dinner at 5pm then the kid is leaving at 5pm even if it's the last turn of the game and things are really interesting. An adult in the same position can say "ok, dinner's going to be a bit late" and finish the game. And adults are much less likely to be told they aren't allowed to stay out until 10-11pm, if you're talking about playing at a local independent store instead of GW's awful stores.
We seem to game with different types of adults. Everyone I game with has a significant other and/or family. Telling the wife you'll be a bit late for dinner unexpectedly, sure. Saying you'll not be home until midnight because your playing a game sorry, you have to deal with the kids and their dinner and cleaning up would result in a swifter kick in the ass and a teenager telling their parents they want to stay an extra half an hour, and a much more miserable next few days.
-Loki- wrote: We seem to game with different types of adults. Everyone I game with has a significant other and/or family. Telling the wife you'll be a bit late for dinner unexpectedly, sure. Saying you'll not be home until midnight because your playing a game sorry, you have to deal with the kids and their dinner and cleaning up would result in a swifter kick in the ass and a teenager telling their parents they want to stay an extra half an hour, and a much more miserable next few days.
Most people I game with have significant others and/or family, and have no problem staying out late on game nights. Presumably the ones with family balance it out by taking the kids/cleaning/etc on some other night so their significant other can have some time for their own hobbies. Or they just have no kids, or kids that are old enough to take care of their own stuff for a night if their parents aren't around.
I just don't think you want to be exclusionary at all. If an individual gamer doesn't want to play against an opponent of a specific age bracket then they don't have to, it makes little sense trying to cull your customers to accommodate them.
Its not just to accomodate them, in my experiance, adults wanna be with adults. We want to have fun with adults, joke, make dirty comments. Say bad things, Curse. And having and adult only night would be great.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Its not just to accomodate them, in my experiance, adults wanna be with adults. We want to have fun with adults, joke, make dirty comments. Say bad things, Curse. And having and adult only night would be great.
Having an adults only night is great. Having a no kids under 21 night is terrible.
Adults will tend to play among adults and kids among kids anyway. At least that's how it's always worked around these parts.
I'd be surprised if there's that many adults who want to make dirty comments and say bad things in the company of strangers. There aren't too many people who get more abusive and abrasive than me and my mates playing a game.... but none of us do it among strangers.
What you're describing sounds more like "club" behaviour than "public store" behaviour. Which is fine if the club is willing to rent out the store for the evening.
You could make a pub with a gaming area attached, which will naturally be an adults focused thing, but I feel then the "pub" aspect becomes your main business and the "gaming" aspect secondary.
Hell, even when I'm in a pub I mostly be careful of what I say because over here you still occasionally get young kids wandering through pubs with their parents. Or, ya know, someone from work might walk past while I'm calling my mate a %^&#^@ Polish %&%^$# ^U&@#! which is even worse than a kid walking past
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Having an adults only night is great. Having a no kids under 21 night is terrible.
Err, what? Aren't those the same thing?
Yeah I just said it from 2 different perspectives, having a night *for* one group of people sounds nice, but having a night where you *ban* a group doesn't sound quite as friendly.
I'm sure there's some adults who would like an adults only night, but I think the gain in making those people mildly happier is outweighed by the risk of making the other group unhappy.
There is absolutely no way I would turf out a chunk of my shop's customers just because some people want to swear.
If anything I'd point to the big RULES signs we have up and say - Rule 1: No swearing - thanks!
If you want an adults only night, do it at your local club. Don't do it in my shop. A really good way to ruin a reputation is by having customers behaving badly.
I don't know. We don't because asking people to pay for swearing seems a bit much, particularly when we don't want people to swear at all, rather than just taxing it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yeah, I have had it happen several times. A kid plays a game with me, about turn two he leaves cause his mommy says its time.
OTOH, I've had to pack it up because his wife called him home...
Or because the sitter canceled and now he's got a hard deadline much earlier than expected. 'Mommy says it's time,' is pretty irrelevant since it applies to adults as much as it does to kids.
stanman wrote: There's a lot of discussion about using beer to promote sales at the shop, but why not hookers and blackjack? It seems to work quite well for Vegas.
Technically, Vegas doesn't have hookers - that's actually illegal in Vegas proper.
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