As suggested in another thread let's see some numbers on it. I haven't included the different aspects of the hobby as these have been polled before, it's simply reflecting engagement with the 40k hobby as a whole.

Don't you think this is a bit personal ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Don't you think this is a bit personal ?

Considering you'll be voting in anonymity, even if something as obvious as your sex is information you consider to be personal in real life, you have nothing to worry about voting here.

G.A

I'm male transitioning to Daemon Prince. Just a few more skulls for Chaos left to go!

 oldzoggy wrote:
Don't you think this is a bit personal ?

Not really. You don't have to post in the thread, and the poll is anonymous.
You don't even have to vote if you don't want to. Its not a census.

male transitioning to male.

Spud transitioning to Ore-Ida

I'm liquid transitioning to solid, though there may be a phase change.

Female transitioning into Sororitas Repressor at this rate. If GW won't release them I must become one.

I selected male since that's what I usually am, but you should probably add genderfluid and such to it.

Male transitioning into a marijuana plant.

Thank you for putting the transitioning option, im sure the few out there appreciate it!

Male transitioning to grognard

(having recently purchased lots and lots of Napoleonics)

Male transitioning to wraith, bound to the will of the dark lord Sauron.

Horribly offended that you did not include Tau Air Caste.

Male transitioning to Servitor.

Potted plant here.

I think I was called a "Lesbian trapped in a man's body." once.
Read into that what you will.

Actually transgender.
Despite the sarcasm from other people, it's chill to be recognised.

Though I suspect this entire poll and topic are a stab at some commentary or other. Or ammunition to prove a point.

I think it's just a check to see how many women are into the hobby. More a matter of curiosity than trying to prove a point or something.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Actually transgender.
Despite the sarcasm from other people, it's chill to be recognised.
Though I suspect this entire poll and topic are a stab at some commentary or other. Or ammunition to prove a point.

I would admit I think it is exactly as said: wondering if it is pretty much an all guy thing or if there is hope in having some diversity in gender.
I find the topic comes up quite often when a behavior is observed the question is thought: "Is this a guy thing, or a gamer thing?"
So a diverse representation helps answer those kinds of questions.
Miniature enthusiasts are few enough and cannot afford to be anything other than inclusive.

Judging by the poll responses, it seems like a big majority of hobbyists are male. This also mirrors my anecdotal evidence-that there's only one real hobbyist girl at my FLGS. (There's another girl who's the girlfriend of a guy who plays, but she doesn't hobby or play herself.)

 JNAProductions wrote:
Judging by the poll responses, it seems like a big majority of hobbyists are male. This also mirrors my anecdotal evidence-that there's only one real hobbyist girl at my FLGS. (There's another girl who's the girlfriend of a guy who plays, but she doesn't hobby or play herself.)

I find for gaming, a couple ladies come out to play Malifaux.
I have seen none for other tabletop.
About 1/4 the crowd is ladies for Magic the Gathering (~7-8).
That is what it is like in my area in Ontario Canada.

Could a point also be made that forum, net use and seeking out hobby discussion online, is also a more male activity?

14% of the KoW tourney I participated in on Saturday was female.

OP, there's better ways to meet French girls

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Could a point also be made that forum, net use and seeking out hobby discussion online, is also a more male activity?

It could, but said point would be wrong.

 Talizvar wrote:
I think I was called a "Lesbian trapped in a man's body." once.
Read into that what you will.

Ha ha, I too have been called the exact same thing. I took it as the compliment it was intended as.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Don't you think this is a bit personal ?

Considering you'll be voting in anonymity, even if something as obvious as your sex is information you consider to be personal in real life, you have nothing to worry about voting here.

G.A

To be honest i wanted to start this thread long ago on Dakka but i wasn't sure how people would view it and being anonymous was my go to for people not minding. I just hope the poll is taken fairly seriously and won't be sabotaged by some for silly reasons.

Regardless of the response to this thread, a method like this where people have to volunteer to give info, is not going to give you a result that's anything like representative of the actual demographics of the community as a whole, only the demographics of those who are enthusiastic enough about the subject to choose to participate.

Nothing can come of this but baseless speculation.

 Weboflies wrote:
Regardless of the response to this thread, a method like this where people have to volunteer to give info, is not going to give you a result that's anything like representative of the actual demographics of the community as a whole, only the demographics of those who are enthusiastic enough about the subject to choose to participate.
Nothing can come of this but baseless speculation.

But the discussion on this baseless speculation is priceless.
It was a sad thing when my love of my life will have nothing to do with the hobby... it may be for the best.
I think we are rather "special" as it is as fans of 40k, one would speculate women are "smarter" than that.

I don't identify as male. I am male.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I don't identify as male. I am male.

Have an exalt good sir!

Higher than one percent, lower than 100 percent.

I identify as a male attack chopper, transitioning into the largest icy-block submersible-capable battleship that I should be, complete with a wing of fighters, 120k marines, and lots of ammunition on deck!

 epicmunda wrote:
I identify as a male attack chopper, transitioning into the largest icy-block submersible-capable battleship that I should be, complete with a wing of fighters, 120k marines, and lots of ammunition on deck!

I agree what you identify with is quite "epic" but it does seem to poke fun at some rather honest responses I would hate to discourage.
Because if I had the choice, I would always be "The Batman".
"Harley" a close second.

I am upset that you did include my gender. Fire gods have feelings too.

Initiate transitioning to Astartes.

Sarcasm aside, as has been said earlier, actually transgender and it is cool to see the option up there, so cheers.

I identify as a basement dwelling virgin.

From my experience I reckon it's probably about a 9.5:1 ratio of men to women, generally within the wargaming hobby. Although very difficult to tell of course from logins on a forum!

 Talizvar wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
Regardless of the response to this thread, a method like this where people have to volunteer to give info, is not going to give you a result that's anything like representative of the actual demographics of the community as a whole, only the demographics of those who are enthusiastic enough about the subject to choose to participate.
Nothing can come of this but baseless speculation.

But the discussion on this baseless speculation is priceless.
It was a sad thing when my love of my life will have nothing to do with the hobby... it may be for the best.
I think we are rather "special" as it is as fans of 40k, one would speculate women are "smarter" than that.

I have a couple of female friends that will happily play board games (casual stuff like Carcasonne, but even more 'man-oriented' games like Zombiecide and Spartacus), but there is no way they would ever get involved with something with a tape measure or an army list. Although having said that I have male friends who are exactly the same, so not quite sure why I made that point!

I used to run a Black Crusade RPG group with a girl in it that we all called "Mother." She demanded that she be an Obliterator and I have never seen someone roleplay a CSM as good as her.

How about... "It's none of your business?!?!?!"

 Ashenwyte wrote:
I'm male transitioning to Daemon Prince. Just a few more skulls for Chaos left to go!

Maybe having Guilliman as your photo displeases the Dark Gods...

Male Transitioning into a potato

I'm mostly a caffeine based life form at this point.

I've been saying for years that we need more women in this hobby, and GW keeps not releasing plastic Sisters. I'm of the opinion that If there was a predominantly female army to play (Besides Nids and Eldar), with some proper marketing to the demographic you'd see a shift in that ratio. My 11 year old daughter's eyes lit up when she saw Celestine + Geminae painted and immediately asked me if there was a whole army like that she could play. I said yes, but they're all metal and mostly out of stock everywhere, She pouted until I did a squad of Seraphim to tag along and now she regularly plays Inquisimunda with them. If they had plastics she could grab an infantry box every few weeks by squirreling away allowance money 'til she could play full scale 40k, but as it is she'll be lucky to field 2000 points by the time she starts high school.

Hello 2017

Edit: ok.

Since i was also on this page from last year

I'm still working on becoming a potato.

Poll threads don't really have an expiration date unless they are tied to a specific date/time (like talking about a particular edition of 40k, for example), especially as polls in this forum get cycled back onto the front page blog roll.

It could, but said point would be wrong.

Not really, males tend to use forums more than females who use social media more. Actually there are even particular leanings in social media. Facebook is used more often by females than Twitter, for example.

With regards to the poll, I'm too old for that stuff, I just go by my chromosomes, it's all we had. Plus, dudes really turn me off.

I usually identity via reflective surfaces

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I usually identity via reflective surfaces

I identify as a vampire, therefore reflective surfaces do not identify me.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I usually identity via reflective surfaces

I identify as a vampire, therefore reflective surfaces do not identify me.

You should write a letter, seems like a breach of your inhoomun rights

I am a rapidly diminishing consciousness helplessly imprisoned within a slowly decomposing sack of meat. It has purpose-grown dangly bits attached to it that, while useful for their given application, have vastly more importance placed upon them in society than really should be when you consider that everyone is the same as me.

I'm just gonna cast my vote and back away slowly.

Um, cheers.

Hey, this thread is back on the front page!
I think I should add that my transition from immortal god-being to human has met with some problems.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I don't identify as male. I am male.

So... you identify as male. That was all you needed to say.

 Mymearan wrote:
So... you identify as male. That was all you needed to say.

Whoosh.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
So... you identify as male. That was all you needed to say.

Whoosh.

Indeed. Whoosh. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you know the difference between sex and gender, and thus why the poll is worded like it is.

 Mymearan wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
So... you identify as male. That was all you needed to say.

Whoosh.

Indeed. Whoosh. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you know the difference between sex and gender, and thus why the poll is worded like it is.

Maybe he's tolerating the question being asked while letting you know he believes gender identity is an artificial and contrived distinction with no basis in fact. Maybe he is also letting you know polls like this are somewhat condescending as anyone who has spent time on Dakka realizes female representation is less than 1%. The OP is asking this to try and make other people feel bad.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Maybe he's tolerating the question being asked while letting you know he believes gender identity is an artificial and contrived distinction with no basis in fact. Maybe he is also letting you know polls like this are somewhat condescending as anyone who has spent time on Dakka realizes female representation is less than 1%. The OP is asking this to try and make other people feel bad.

Essentially yes, but tbh my militancy has rather dropped off since I posted the original comment, so I'm not gonna bother having the argument.

Based on posts on Dakka I'm fairly convinced that transgendered female miniatures gamers outnumber CIS female miniatures gamers by a significant margin. Which has me wondering what the ratio of transgender vs CIS female miniature gamers is? No agenda, just curiosity.

I don't get what one's sex has to do with the hobby or why someone bothered making a poll. It's not like anyone haven't seen the demographics when going to a retailer, tourny and so on.

It seems quite contrived.

 stanman wrote:
Based on posts on Dakka I'm fairly convinced that transgendered female miniatures gamers outnumber CIS female miniatures gamers by a significant margin. Which has me wondering what the ratio of transgender vs CIS female miniature gamers is? No agenda, just curiosity.

I honestly don't know. My FLGS has a significant number of women that frequent it, nearly as many as there are men, but most of them are only there for the MTG and Infinity stuff the store stocks. Although there are a few 40k players. I'm not sure if any are Male-to-female Transgendered, though.

The poll is showing roughly 7% as being female (combined) but in my local experience I think it's probably less than that. There's one female miniature gamer that I know that frequents our local GW and easily about 50 males so it's maybe 2% of the population (or less?). In my immediate game group we have 1 female out of 12 of us but she never games at stores or events and also sticks to either video games, card games, or board games, zombicide is about as heavy of a miniatures games as she'll play. I went to Adepticon and I don't recall seeing a single female player there out of 200-300 players, at least for 40k. There may have been a few playing that I didn't notice as I was primarily just looking at the miniatures and armies, but the impression that I had was that almost the entire player base was male, there were females attending but they were in a very small minority and none of them seemed to be playing.

I recall seeing at least a few women in the vendor hall, playing board games or were at some of the painting events etc but maybe the style of 40k is something that women tend not to be very interested in or even might find it distasteful? I've noticed that online videos games and MMOs tend to have the largest portion of female gamers so maybe it has something to do with the type of game play or visual style of games.

I feel offended.

There should have been an option for Slaaneshis, that identify as both.
I really cant understand how some people can still put up a poll that only has TWO genders in it.
ITS 2018 WAKE UP!

There are more genders than male and female and everybodies knows that by now!

First off... wtf does it matter? It shouldn't.
We all need to get over our hangups about what is in other peoples pants... and just enjoy our time in our fantasy land with whoever comes up to the table.

For the love of The Emperor, you can almost feel the societal shift as time passes.

I have deleted a ton of off-topic posts ITT. Please don't post further discussion about political correctness etc here. If you want to discuss such matters, generally speaking the best place is one of the politics threads in the Off Tooic subforum. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a reminder, failure to comply with moderator instructions will result in a suspension.

Not a political statement.

I identify as a Haemonculus, we dont have genders just more arms and heads than others.

See my profile picture, thats me

I'm neither male nor female as I am an android. Die meatbags!

I legit appreciate that "Transitioning to female" is included with Female, not a separate thing. Your a pretty Rad person!

I've mentioned before on here that I'm Transgender. Well I don't go around shouting it from the rooftops, it is a part of my identity and who I am. I hope one day more people can understand that, and not feel uncomfortable around me when they learn that.

Oh dear wargaming is a massive sausage fest, who knew? And to think I only took up The Hobby to meet girls.

 feeder wrote:
14% of the KoW tourney I participated in on Saturday was female.

That's cool. My LGS is at least 14-20% female , but they're in for D&D and/or Magic. I thought wargames were more dramatically skewed than that.
OP should note that 40k is an especially macho game/setting. Fantasy war games are going to see more crossover from the fantasy gaming women.


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da_emprah wrote:
I've been saying for years that we need more women in this hobby, and GW keeps not releasing plastic Sisters. I'm of the opinion that If there was a predominantly female army to play (Besides Nids and Eldar), with some proper marketing to the demographic you'd see a shift in that ratio. My 11 year old daughter's eyes lit up when she saw Celestine + Geminae painted and immediately asked me if there was a whole army like that she could play. I said yes, but they're all metal and mostly out of stock everywhere, She pouted until I did a squad of Seraphim to tag along and now she regularly plays Inquisimunda with them. If they had plastics she could grab an infantry box every few weeks by squirreling away allowance money 'til she could play full scale 40k, but as it is she'll be lucky to field 2000 points by the time she starts high school.

Awww, that's cute.
As I implied in my last post, I think it's a matter of setting. 40k and historicals are both overwhelmingly masculine: indeed, one could say that in real history, being conscripted to war was the second-suckiest part of the masculine gender role, after working to death in a mine. I personally looove history, but in a more holistic, "girly" way than military history. So I'm going to do historical wargaming, but I'm an outlier, and I got here from tabletop RPGs and a love of history in general. Escapist fantasy with female troops is going to be more attractive than grim historical reality or exaggerated grimdark, I think.

I've got a different set of hobbies with my wife and a different set of hobbies with female friends.

If they don't enjoy Warhammer 40k, that is okay with me. It would be nice once in a while to have a female interested in my hobby, but playing/hobbying against/with only males is perfectly fine. I think its even healthy for certain parts of the male psyche, that some things remain exclusively a male activity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gilda wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

da_emprah wrote:
I've been saying for years that we need more women in this hobby, and GW keeps not releasing plastic Sisters. I'm of the opinion that If there was a predominantly female army to play (Besides Nids and Eldar), with some proper marketing to the demographic you'd see a shift in that ratio. My 11 year old daughter's eyes lit up when she saw Celestine + Geminae painted and immediately asked me if there was a whole army like that she could play. I said yes, but they're all metal and mostly out of stock everywhere, She pouted until I did a squad of Seraphim to tag along and now she regularly plays Inquisimunda with them. If they had plastics she could grab an infantry box every few weeks by squirreling away allowance money 'til she could play full scale 40k, but as it is she'll be lucky to field 2000 points by the time she starts high school.

Awww, that's cute.
As I implied in my last post, I think it's a matter of setting. 40k and historicals are both overwhelmingly masculine: indeed, one could say that in real history, being conscripted to war was the second-suckiest part of the masculine gender role, after working to death in a mine. I personally looove history, but in a more holistic, "girly" way than military history. So I'm going to do historical wargaming, but I'm an outlier, and I got here from tabletop RPGs and a love of history in general. Escapist fantasy with female troops is going to be more attractive than grim historical reality or exaggerated grimdark, I think.

I agree, I think it would be a great idea for GW to market a new army or two along with the Sisters to a female audience. At the very least, a wider audience. It would be healthy for the hobby.

I identify as an attack helicopter. I'm offended.

Female transitioning into a caffeine addicted insomniac lol

but on the more serious side, I have never met another female war gamer, I am the one in my family that has to push for a game, hubby will play if I organise it. I am also the person in the family who has painted all of our armies (our eldest son now paints his own now he has moved across the country) I also build terrain as a part time bill paying activity.

I am also one of the rare female grognards who DMs 1st edition AD&D.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:


I agree, I think it would be a great idea for GW to market a new army or two along with the Sisters to a female audience. At the very least, a wider audience. It would be healthy for the hobby.

I am all for femmed-up armies and rebooted sisters but realistically it will have virtually zero effect on drawing ladies to the hobby. It will just be guys buying them. I don't think anyone, male, female or attack helicopter buys into wargaming because they narcissitically want to see their own gender identity on the tabletop. If that were so then who is buying orks, necrons and tyranids??!!

It is actually a little insulting to women to assume they will only go straight for the miniatures which most look like barbie dolls and won't touch anything else.

Nothing in what LumenPraebeo wrote indicated that an army geared towards female players should look like "barbie dolls".

I won't hazard to suggest what aesthetics female wargamers might like, that would be something perhaps Games Workshop might invest in focus groups for (although afaik they are averse to market research and queerly proud of it).

In my extremely anecdotal and limited experience, all the female hobbyists I know seem to like Tyranids.

 Ouze wrote:
Nothing in what LumenPraebeo wrote indicated that an army geared towards female players should look like "barbie dolls".

I won't hazard to suggest what aesthetics female wargamers might like, that would be something perhaps Games Workshop might invest in focus groups for (although afaik they are averse to market research and queerly proud of it).

In my extremely anecdotal and limited experience, all the female hobbyists I know seem to like Tyranids.

Thank you Ouze. I notice in RPG games, female players roll magic focused characters more often than say rangers, rogues, or warriors. Or if they want to dabble with something new, they go for hybrid classes, such as paladins, druids, and witchslayers. So, an army marketed toward potential female players can be themed around that. Ultimately, I'm not so familiar with the female psyche. GW would NEED to hire some female market analysts if they want to do it right. That is, if they want to at all.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Nothing in what LumenPraebeo wrote indicated that an army geared towards female players should look like "barbie dolls".

I won't hazard to suggest what aesthetics female wargamers might like, that would be something perhaps Games Workshop might invest in focus groups for (although afaik they are averse to market research and queerly proud of it).

In my extremely anecdotal and limited experience, all the female hobbyists I know seem to like Tyranids.

Thank you Ouze. I notice in RPG games, female players roll magic focused characters more often than say rangers, rogues, or warriors. Or if they want to dabble with something new, they go for hybrid classes, such as paladins, druids, and witchslayers. So, an army marketed toward potential female players can be themed around that. Ultimately, I'm not so familiar with the female psyche. GW would NEED to higher some female market analysts if they want to do it right. That is, if they want to at all.

As a female player and DM these types of characters are far from my preferred, this is largely the same for other female players I know.

substantially changing a game to market to the perceived likes of the opposite gender to the majority of players runs a high risk of alienating existing players.

Non-binary/genderqueer. Not ashamed of it, not frightened to say so.

Come at me, Brosef Fritzl.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Non-binary/genderqueer. Not ashamed of it, not frightened to say so.

Come at me, Brosef Fritzl.

I say right on.

i could have sworn i actually answered this thing before but maybe i just answered the poll? Anyhow, I am a woman person. My preferred armies are the ones that are sneaky, and my preferred fantasy class is giant barbarians. None of this means anything other than that they are the things that i like.

I do know women who game, i'm related to them.

I identify as Machine
Bow before your mechanical overlord, Shodan did nothing wrong.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I identify as Machine
Bow before your mechanical overlord, Shodan did nothing wrong.

All hail our new gender overlords!

 Hollow wrote:
I identify as an attack helicopter. I'm offended.

Deeply offended. I suspect we have more attack helicopters here than we imagined. Some people might be transitioning to becoming an attack helicopter. I remember that first time when I was little, that I wondered if I spun around really fast with my arms out... perhaps I could fly...

 Lockark wrote:
I legit appreciate that "Transitioning to female" is included with Female, not a separate thing. Your a pretty Rad person!

I've mentioned before on here that I'm Transgender. Well I don't go around shouting it from the rooftops, it is a part of my identity and who I am. I hope one day more people can understand that, and not feel uncomfortable around me when they learn that.

Right on! Im working on transitioning to Female myself and I've found a lot of support at my local gaming spot (I was worried it would be a bunch of trolls but it turns out it was NOT the old neckbeards but instead the young religious types who were the ones who denied my existence). Funny thing is I've become a lot less of a competitive gamer and now I just play for the social interaction. I think that was my goal all along but social conventions made me think I had to compete to have a good time. Now im just your typical fluff bunny Guard player (I own a Ushanka hat to go with my Valhallans!)

Trusylver wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Nothing in what LumenPraebeo wrote indicated that an army geared towards female players should look like "barbie dolls".

I won't hazard to suggest what aesthetics female wargamers might like, that would be something perhaps Games Workshop might invest in focus groups for (although afaik they are averse to market research and queerly proud of it).

In my extremely anecdotal and limited experience, all the female hobbyists I know seem to like Tyranids.

Thank you Ouze. I notice in RPG games, female players roll magic focused characters more often than say rangers, rogues, or warriors. Or if they want to dabble with something new, they go for hybrid classes, such as paladins, druids, and witchslayers. So, an army marketed toward potential female players can be themed around that. Ultimately, I'm not so familiar with the female psyche. GW would NEED to higher some female market analysts if they want to do it right. That is, if they want to at all.

As a female player and DM these types of characters are far from my preferred, this is largely the same for other female players I know.

substantially changing a game to market to the perceived likes of the opposite gender to the majority of players runs a high risk of alienating existing players.

A few female alt heads for the IG/AM wouldn't be a huge ask, and it would go a long way. Even the usual suspects couldn't whinge about it because it's repeatedly backed up in fluff and they'd still be optional.

It's not simply that GW isn't outreaching to potential female players, it doesn't even leave room for them if they do manage to make their own way in.

FWIW, while I'm not defending GW's insistence on ignoring female Guard that clearly and prominently exist in the fluff at all, for about $65 CAD you can get enough bitz from Victoria Miniatures to make 24 Cadians female.

I don't know of any attack-helicopter bitz compatible with the AM range, but if you're clever enough to come up with such a truly original and hilarious 'bit', you probably don't need my help.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
FWIW, while I'm not defending GW's insistence on ignoring female Guard that clearly and prominently exist in the fluff at all, for about $65 CAD you can get enough bitz from Victoria Miniatures to make 24 Cadians female.

I don't know of any attack-helicopter bitz compatible with the AM range, but if you're clever enough to come up with such a truly original and hilarious 'bit', you probably don't need my help.

Victoria is where its at when it comes to getting your female guard. She does fantastic work, I just wish it was cheaper!

Third-party bits in general are pretty expensive. Cadians look like potatoes anyway so here's hoping GW updates them sometime.

 Luciferian wrote:
Third-party bits in general are pretty expensive. Cadians look like potatoes anyway so here's hoping GW updates them sometime.

Well, yeah. For the price of 24 female heads and 21 pairs of female legs from Victoria Miniatures you can get almost two whole boxes of Cadian Shock Troops at Canadian prices.

The point wasn't to defend GW's inane and nonsensical policy, just to nudge anyone interested in female soldats in Victoria's direction.

 Luciferian wrote:
Third-party bits in general are pretty expensive. Cadians look like potatoes anyway so here's hoping GW updates them sometime.

Well if Cadians look like potato and mine are also painted by a potato to look like potatoes, do they now gain the ability to transform to Vodka?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Third-party bits in general are pretty expensive. Cadians look like potatoes anyway so here's hoping GW updates them sometime.

Well if Cadians look like potato and mine are also painted by a potato to look like potatoes, do they now gain the ability to transform to Vodka?

Only if they are Valhallan =P

Aw, I'm oddly fond of the little potatoey Cadians, I like having a bunch of Barrys and Fredas in the middle of all the muscle bound macho men and spikey space knights. I'm dreading the day they're updated.

Casualty wrote:
Aw, I'm oddly fond of the little potatoey Cadians, I like having a bunch of Barrys and Fredas in the middle of all the muscle bound macho men and spikey space knights. I'm dreading the day they're updated.

Checks out i guess.

Why must deviant sexuality worm its way into all facets of pop-culture? Keep your confused hormones out of wargaming.

 Norchack wrote:

Why must deviant sexuality worm its way into all facets of pop-culture? Keep your confused hormones out of wargaming.

Its a legitimate question. It also has an air of inclusiveness. Just because you don't agree with us dosen't mean we do not exist. The future of this game is making it open for everyone to some degree. By that I do not mean watering it down for popular consumption but merely acknowledging that its not an old boys club and everyone is welcome to play. New blood is what will make 40k grow and if you double down on opposition to that you will live to see 40k wither and die. As a transwoman I am more than happy to welcome all with open arms and open hearts! I recently came out to my local gaming club/store and they have been just AMAZING in accepting me and doing their best to make me feel welcome. This kind of atmosphere is also why our local gaming community has almost tripled in size in the last year and we have dozens of new kids join up. Its a great time to be in the game.

I am a man transitioning to double-man.

Club can't even handle me right now.

Also I have two boners when I think about bolters.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Norchack wrote:

Why must deviant sexuality worm its way into all facets of pop-culture? Keep your confused hormones out of wargaming.

Its a legitimate question. It also has an air of inclusiveness. Just because you don't agree with us dosen't mean we do not exist. The future of this game is making it open for everyone to some degree. By that I do not mean watering it down for popular consumption but merely acknowledging that its not an old boys club and everyone is welcome to play. New blood is what will make 40k grow and if you double down on opposition to that you will live to see 40k wither and die. As a transwoman I am more than happy to welcome all with open arms and open hearts! I recently came out to my local gaming club/store and they have been just AMAZING in accepting me and doing their best to make me feel welcome. This kind of atmosphere is also why our local gaming community has almost tripled in size in the last year and we have dozens of new kids join up. Its a great time to be in the game.

Glad to hear a good story like that. Hope everywhere you go is as welcoming!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I am a man transitioning to double-man.

Club can't even handle me right now.

Also I have two boners when I think about bolters.

Slip this quote into official Primaris fluff and nobody would even notice.

Casualty wrote:
Slip this quote into official Primaris fluff and nobody would even notice.

It's probably in the first paragraph of Shadowspear's booklet.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Norchack wrote:

Why must deviant sexuality worm its way into all facets of pop-culture? Keep your confused hormones out of wargaming.

Its a legitimate question. It also has an air of inclusiveness. Just because you don't agree with us dosen't mean we do not exist. The future of this game is making it open for everyone to some degree. By that I do not mean watering it down for popular consumption but merely acknowledging that its not an old boys club and everyone is welcome to play. New blood is what will make 40k grow and if you double down on opposition to that you will live to see 40k wither and die. As a transwoman I am more than happy to welcome all with open arms and open hearts! I recently came out to my local gaming club/store and they have been just AMAZING in accepting me and doing their best to make me feel welcome. This kind of atmosphere is also why our local gaming community has almost tripled in size in the last year and we have dozens of new kids join up. Its a great time to be in the game.

Glad to hear a good story like that. Hope everywhere you go is as welcoming!

I've been floored by the reaction (from everyone really, I live in a fairly conservative area) although I'm not out to my biggest critics, work and family.

The local gaming community here has been a huge boon to my mental well being since they treat me like a person and try very hard to remember my name and pronouns. Game Night is pretty much a guaranteed place where I can be my authentic self without fear. I had a lot of fear starting out because of our community's.....reputation towards women and a general reluctance toward social change but everyone has been stellar so far. I had assurances at first from the manager that he would not tolerate people who harassed me but it has not been even close to that. We do have a very strong and open group and toxic people have been made to either shape up or head elsewhere so i imagine that helps alot. I even went out of the way to send this story to GW for their big "how did Warhammer Change My Life" story drive they did a few weeks ago. I wouldn't be as far along as I am today if it wasn't for the support of both my local LGBT support groups and my Warhammer community since it has been such a huge part of my life and my passions. Having a place where you can feel like you belong and people accept you for who are (regardless of whoever you are) is such a gift that many people take for granted, be it school, church, work, or at home.

For the detractors out there just remember how you treat people can have rippling effects. Sure its just a game but to some people it can mean the difference between life and death if they are already on a mental precipice. A little kindness goes a long way and doing that shows no weakness to you and takes no effort on your part.

Make the world a better place one die roll at a time! (unless its a one)

Casualty wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I am a man transitioning to double-man.

Club can't even handle me right now.

Also I have two boners when I think about bolters.

Slip this quote into official Primaris fluff and nobody would even notice.

Which should give some insight into the amount of originality and wit it contains.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Casualty wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I am a man transitioning to double-man.

Club can't even handle me right now.

Also I have two boners when I think about bolters.

Slip this quote into official Primaris fluff and nobody would even notice.

Which should give some insight into the amount of originality and wit it contains.

And they wonder why this community has so much trouble attracting women...

 generalchaos34 wrote:
And they wonder why this community has so much trouble attracting women...

Considering that about half of all my gaming groups are women (actual women, biologically), I'd say you probably need to speak for yourselves. And, you know, not for women (I have noticed that tends to drive them away).

Usually, the people chiding me about some silly quip are overweight neckbeards that measure the time between laundry and brushing their teeth by Presidential administrations. Of course my bad joke is what pushes all the hot chicks away, says the 300-pound guy that wears the same t-shirt every weekend and never uses deodorant.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Its a legitimate question. It also has an air of inclusiveness. Just because you don't agree with us dosen't mean we do not exist. The future of this game is making it open for everyone to some degree. By that I do not mean watering it down for popular consumption but merely acknowledging that its not an old boys club and everyone is welcome to play. New blood is what will make 40k grow and if you double down on opposition to that you will live to see 40k wither and die. As a transwoman I am more than happy to welcome all with open arms and open hearts! I recently came out to my local gaming club/store and they have been just AMAZING in accepting me and doing their best to make me feel welcome. This kind of atmosphere is also why our local gaming community has almost tripled in size in the last year and we have dozens of new kids join up. Its a great time to be in the game.

This, this makes me happy.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
And they wonder why this community has so much trouble attracting women...

Considering that about half of all my gaming groups are women (actual women, biologically), I'd say you probably need to speak for yourselves. And, you know, not for women (I have noticed that tends to drive them away).

Usually, the people chiding me about some silly quip are overweight neckbeards that measure the time between laundry and brushing their teeth by Presidential administrations. Of course my bad joke is what pushes all the hot chicks away, says the 300-pound guy that wears the same t-shirt every weekend and never uses deodorant.

Im sharing a personal story about kindness and acceptance and you are making jokes about boners and ad hominem attacks. Those are quite different things in the context of this poll.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im sharing a personal story about kindness and acceptance and you are making jokes about boners and ad hominem attacks. Those are quite different things in the context of this poll.

No one is making attacks but you, in case your memory is damaged. Would you like me to quote it, or can you use your mouse scroller?

I don't see at any point where I interrupted your story. As far as I can tell, you said your piece and people can reply to that and continue discussing it and responding regardless of anything said about boners, bolters, bad hygiene, or the price of tea in China. It can even be interrupted by your comically rude statement regarding people being unable to attract women, something I've not really seen as a problem.

Also, I'm still trying to figure out what part of this thread is specifically belonging to you, you do not seem to be the OP.

Adeptus Doritos, I really hope you think your jokes don't hurt anyone, or offend anyone. I'd like to think you're the kind of person who doesn't want to make others feel sad or mad or offended or anything like that.

So, as a corollary, when you have someone outright tell you "Please stop," it'd behoove you to listen.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im sharing a personal story about kindness and acceptance and you are making jokes about boners and ad hominem attacks. Those are quite different things in the context of this poll.

No one is making attacks but you, in case your memory is damaged. Would you like me to quote it, or can you use your mouse scroller?

I don't see at any point where I interrupted your story. As far as I can tell, you said your piece and people can reply to that and continue discussing it and responding regardless of anything said about boners, bolters, bad hygiene, or the price of tea in China. It can even be interrupted by your comically rude statement regarding people being unable to attract women, something I've not really seen as a problem.

Also, I'm still trying to figure out what part of this thread is specifically belonging to you, you do not seem to be the OP.

You're making an overreaching statement about attraction, I meant merely getting women to JOIN in the warhammer hobby, not to date them. The context of the poll is that women constitute a tiny minority of the community (something that even if its not true in your locality is very true on a worldwide scale) and the OP graciously included the option for gender variant folks such as myself to allow for inclusiveness. Comments like yours in which you make offhand comments about boners and such are part of the problem of perception that constantly distances women from participating in our wonderful hobby.

Dial it back please people, no need to be rude to anyone.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Adeptus Doritos, I really hope you think your jokes don't hurt anyone, or offend anyone. I'd like to think you're the kind of person who doesn't want to make others feel sad or mad or offended or anything like that.

Don't worry- I don't think that at all. I'm much more reasonable and realistic.

I simply don't care.

My stuff is mild, and I tend to like to treat all people fairly and with common courtesy, but when someone comes along and throws shade- they don't get to be the victim when it's thrown back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
You're making an overreaching statement about attraction, I meant merely getting women to JOIN in the warhammer hobby, not to date them. The context of the poll is that women constitute a tiny minority of the community (something that even if its not true in your locality is very true on a worldwide scale) and the OP graciously included the option for gender variant folks such as myself to allow for inclusiveness. Comments like yours in which you make offhand comments about boners and such are part of the problem of perception that constantly distances women from participating in our wonderful hobby.

Again:

The consistency of gaming groups I am in says otherwise, and they're often worse than I am.

And...

...You do not get to speak for all women.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Adeptus Doritos, I really hope you think your jokes don't hurt anyone, or offend anyone. I'd like to think you're the kind of person who doesn't want to make others feel sad or mad or offended or anything like that.

Don't worry- I don't think that at all. I'm much more reasonable and realistic.

I simply don't care.

My stuff is mild, and I tend to like to treat all people fairly and with common courtesy, but when someone comes along and throws shade- they don't get to be the victim when it's thrown back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
You're making an overreaching statement about attraction, I meant merely getting women to JOIN in the warhammer hobby, not to date them. The context of the poll is that women constitute a tiny minority of the community (something that even if its not true in your locality is very true on a worldwide scale) and the OP graciously included the option for gender variant folks such as myself to allow for inclusiveness. Comments like yours in which you make offhand comments about boners and such are part of the problem of perception that constantly distances women from participating in our wonderful hobby.

Again:

The consistency of gaming groups I am in says otherwise, and they're often worse than I am.

And...

...You do not get to speak for all women.

To the second part: There's obviously SOME reason that women are much less represented in the hobby than men are. And, based off what you posted, you're probably a man (correct me if I'm wrong) so I'll go ahead and defer to the woman on what the reason might be.

I can certainly agree that there's no universal truth for any group of people-men, women, white, black, old, young-but that doesn't mean there aren't commonalities.

As for the first part... Well, you're just being a jerk. You're in what basically amounts to public space, talking to other people. If you don't care about upsetting others with your words, it might be prudent to not use words at all then.

 JNAProductions wrote:
To the second part: There's obviously SOME reason that women are much less represented in the hobby than men are. And, based off what you posted, you're probably a man (correct me if I'm wrong) so I'll go ahead and defer to the woman on what the reason might be.

This may be very difficult for you to fathom, but let me try and help.

Wargaming simply does not have the same appeal to women and girls that it does to men and boys.

The same reason romantic comedies have fewer men and boys in the theaters. It's just a thing. No one's "pushing them away", in fact it's been quite the opposite and the women that do play games have been playing prior to any of these demands for change.

There's no magical formula here. And the obnoxious losers and creepy weirdos at the table aren't going to get chicks to play with them, no matter what gets posted on social media or what models have boobs.

I don't care if 0 women play, or if the hobby becomes 99% women. The people I want in the hobby are people that enjoy the hobby, their identifiers are absolutely irrelevant to me.

And if I spent all the time worrying about who could get "hurt" by my words, well... it's 2019 and I don't have time for that. If politeness and courtesy isn't enough, they can GTFO and stop expecting to be treated like a special protected class.

Alright, that is fair on the "women in the hobby" part. I will, again, believe the women that part of the reason is crude jokes and whatnot that are common to a lot of people in the hobby, but that does make sense.

But as for not caring... Being nice on a forum is easy. Being polite is easy. Not cracking jokes at other people's expense is easy. And I would not say you've succeeded at those low bars.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But as for not caring... Being nice on a forum is easy. Being polite is easy. Not cracking jokes at other people's expense is easy. And I would not say you've succeeded at those low bars.

You know what's hard?

Trying to understand how "responding with snark when you've been given snark" is somehow making me a bad person.

Unless, of course, I'm held to a different standard than the other human being. I'd like to hear your justification for that.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But as for not caring... Being nice on a forum is easy. Being polite is easy. Not cracking jokes at other people's expense is easy. And I would not say you've succeeded at those low bars.

You know what's hard?

Trying to understand how "responding with snark when you've been given snark" is somehow making me a bad person.

Unless, of course, I'm held to a different standard than the other human being. But the last I checked, there's no reason to do that unless they have some developmental issue that means they can't help their own responses to others.

So, nice try. I see how you view people like her now.

So you don't see your joke as being even possibly offensive? There's no way in hell you're in the wrong, and you should be more careful with your words?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you don't see your joke as being even possibly offensive? There's no way in hell you're in the wrong, and you should be more careful with your words?

Universally?

No.

"Offensive" is not an objective thing. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you don't see your joke as being even possibly offensive? There's no way in hell you're in the wrong, and you should be more careful with your words?

Universally?

No.

"Offensive" is not an objective thing. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

Alright, then let me rephrase.

You don't see your joke as being the kind of thing that'd reasonably offend people? Bearing in mind that transitioning is not an easy thing to even get started, and people who do manage to go through with it often face huge amounts of bigotry.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don't see your joke as being the kind of thing that'd reasonably offend people? Bearing in mind that transitioning is not an easy thing to even get started, and people who do manage to go through with it often face huge amounts of bigotry.

No.

If someone saying "boner" on the internet is dangerous to the transition process, then "The Internet" is probably the last place for that person.

Juvenile? Crude? Lame? Of course.

But no one is harmed. I am of the opinion that someone is just demonstrating attention-seeking behavior, and you're enabling.

I wish them the best during their process, but being upset over the word "boner" like it's damaging them is something I can't take seriously.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I am a man transitioning to double-man.

Club can't even handle me right now.

Also I have two boners when I think about bolters.

So, let me get this straight: You don't think anyone could reasonably by offended by this joke? Because if so, that shows a shocking lack of empathy for other people.

 JNAProductions wrote:

So, let me get this straight: You don't think anyone could reasonably by offended by this joke? Because if so, that shows a shocking lack of empathy for other people.

On the internet, someone being offended about the word "boner"? I'm certain someone can.

It's the internet. "Being offended" is the longest-running ARG.

I have empathy. But I also don't think "boner" has harmed this person at all, and I believe you're being over-dramatic over it.

Which is kind of weird.

See, you're focused on the boner.

I'll let her speak for herself, but it really seems to me the issue is that you're making light of transitioning, using it purely as fodder for joke material. It'd be similar to making a joke about lynching with a black person.

 JNAProductions wrote:

I'll let her speak for herself, but it really seems to me the issue is that you're making light of transitioning, using it purely as fodder for joke material. It'd be similar to making a joke about lynching with a black person.

I've made no references to this person's transition process.

I don't know how many gold medals you've got in "mental gymnastics", but you're Olympics material making that reference.

Are you quite done? Or would you like to reference the Holocaust?

We are quite done. Seriously that's enough please, you have both said your piece so let that be an end to it.

Male, but I sometimes become one with paint fumes and identify as an A-10 at those times...

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Wargaming simply does not have the same appeal to women and girls that it does to men and boys.

The same reason romantic comedies have fewer men and boys in the theaters. It's just a thing. No one's "pushing them away", in fact it's been quite the opposite and the women that do play games have been playing prior to any of these demands for change.

There's no magical formula here. And the obnoxious losers and creepy weirdos at the table aren't going to get chicks to play with them, no matter what gets posted on social media or what models have boobs.

.

It isn't "just a thing", though. The colour blue is just a thing. Why is that particular wavelength of colour understood by us as blue? Cultural definitions of "blue" aside, it's ultimately... just a thing. The wavelength is. Nobody decided that it should be.


But which demographics in a particular society that engage with wich particular forms of cultural works is definitely not something that just is, it's subjected to values and material factors.

Like ideological state apparatus.

'Edgy' people are almost always in fact simply pushing the maintenance of the status quo.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Wargaming simply does not have the same appeal to women and girls that it does to men and boys.

The same reason romantic comedies have fewer men and boys in the theaters. It's just a thing. No one's "pushing them away"

Went through a STEM major in college, had plenty of guys quote the same line at me there, got to watch as they steadily pushed out every, single, woman, from my major, by being caustic douche nozzles. And no, it wasn't something I could just fix, I called a number of them on it repeatedly, they always went right back to "It's just a joke". Then had to spend the last two years of college listen to them whine about how there were no women in the college to associate with.

So no, I don't believe you that this is purely a preference thing. I've gotten to see how people at the game store react to my wife, and it's rarely in a socially competent way, while at least better than openly malicious, is generally enough to chase people off in short order. Though funny enough, it's been infinitely better with the bunch of newbie folks I've been playing 40k with recently rather than the typical crew at the more established stores, so perhaps there's hope for the hobby regardless. That group also included someone who'd be effected by the wording of this poll if I'm not wrong, and holy gak were they concerned about how they'd be taken. Which is hardly a surprise when people readily demean them on boards like this, I hope our group chatter wasn't nearly as off putting as some of what's come up in here would have been.

Hell, speaking of jokes, my predecessor at my first job pretty well ensured they wouldn't extend his contract with a couple of jokes including the classic "I like my coffee like I like my women, ground up and in the freezer". The VP remembered that joke from him clearly four years into my time there when she told me about it while we were discussing social weirdness in the programming community. Some of the jokes yall make just suck, and jokes in bad taste will impact people's opinion of you.

My wife is a manager in a software firm, and she has to fight twice as hard as the men in her workplace for respect. She has had some really foul things said to her in the past, had a manager she liked and respected tell her he was surprised she succeeded in her promotion because she is just a small woman, and been told by him that that is why he did not promote her, as well as finding out she was being paid less (about 15% less) than men doing the same job in the same organisation (which in fairness they corrected with no fuss).

Her experience in gaming is that a bossy bloke always tries to backseat game her experience, telling her what to do and "helping" in a really patronising way. I see this at my D&D table too, my group was almost all women at first, and the only dude there would constantly try to boss the others into taking certain actions on their turns or browbeat them into doing whatever he wanted them to do. It has gotten a lot better, and he is not an obnoxious person actually, but it was like his assumption was that none of the women would know how this stuff is supposed to work.

I don't think people do this stuff out of badness, but it is the expectation they build up over years and years of social programming. I think it is getting better though. I certainly have come across more women who are comfortable taking part in various roleplaying or wargaming hobbies in the last few years.

Lack of option in the pole for non-binary people.

Regarding people's behavior, there's something to be said for dealing with that phase we seem to go through in High School where stuff that is terrible is funny, and saying terrible things is a reasonable substitute for a sense of humor.

If nothing else, thanks to this poll for letting me know Victoria Miniatures exists.

My partner [female] also experiences "Back Seat Gaming" where she is 'Helped' to play by overly flirtatous and patronising men.

It took a few months at beating them at magic before that stopped - She doesn't play 40k outside of the home enough or with the same group enough for the experience to have faded their sadly.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Sadly you’ll always get creeps creeping.

This stuff happens. We're typically talking about a group that is completely deficient in the social graces. I'm not surprised to hear your wifes story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Anyway, over the last 5 years or so I’ve seen a marked increase in the number of women getting into the hobby. Well, in my area at least. And it’s a good thing. I welcome increasing diversity in the hobby.

And at the same time I’ve been seeing more female representation in the miniatures; dark eldar, Stormcast, nighthaunt, genestealer cults, and now the new sisters of battle. And they’re better represented too. No longer are they just eye candy in bikini armour; they’re ‘legit’, if you understand what I mean.

And I see a sort of chicken and the egg scenario here; is GW making more female minis because more women are getting into their product? Or are more women being drawn into the hobby because of the increasingly better representation of them? Is it both? Or is it irrelevant? At any rate, it’s something I can’t help but ponder.

But how many women will buy the new sisters compared to men?

Most of the female players I know, or have met over the years have played marines/guard/tyranids/orks or chaos. I don't see to many of them looking for female dominated armies.

That sounds like the minis increasing and improving representation of women is irrelevant to them. That there’s some other reason for more women getting involved. Changing social opinions?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Also, that sounds like the minis increasing and improving representation of women is irrelevant to them. That there’s some other reason for more women getting involved. Changing social opinions?

Why do you say that the percentage of - to tie it into the thread - female 40k fans on Dakka has been growing? Personal anecdote, or something else? I'm not disagreeing, I have no data at all other than what this poll says. I don't really remember if it's trended upward over the lifetime of the poll.

The few tournaments I attend have somewhere in the region of 1 in twenty female players, who are almost always exclusively the partners of another player there. [But who are playing in their own right, mind.]

The local gaming store which I attend/help out at does most of it's business in 40k, and has more female customers buying 40k related things than the amount that show up at tournaments, but it's still a small percentage. I'd struggle to say it's really 'improving.'

None of the female 40k players I've met have sisters armies. Tyranids seem suprisingly popular.

40k is certainly nothing like MTG in terms of it's recent attempts to attract and retain female players, I feel this is due to a few factors -

Wizards prominently highlights design level members of the team that work on the game that are female. They write articles, attend events etc.
Wizards does the same to its pro players who are female.
They've also gone overboard on this Arena steaming thing recently, and the streamers are of a wide variety of backgrounds. - Being able just to flick on Twitch and watch lots of girls playing the game is bound to be somewhat reassuring for other girls wanting to get in the hobby + They can start online without the need for in person interaction/harassment.

I watch a lot of Warhammer Youtube content, and I'm only aware of one prominent female youtuber for 40k games - And all the other channels I watch with dozens of reoccuring and one off guests - Once again the guests arn't female. It can't be terribly welcoming searching the internet to discover that pretty much no girls play the hobby and [to the best of my knowledge] none of the people that write the rules or get interviews with GW are either.

These things are all fixable - Just by GW.

I’m not specifically talking about women in Dakka. I’m talking about women in the wider community. Specifically, the increase of women in my local gaming community.

Oh, I see what you mean now.

Rather surprised there's been a surge of comments trying to make things more inclusive for girls in war-gaming. What somebody decides to enjoy should be their own choice rather than the choices of any internet group. Personally I think girl war-gamers tend to be less competitive than their male counterparts on average which might explain the lack of women in tournaments.

As far as the game goes there's a few girl painters with their own youtube channels though I haven't watched in forever. Will more female models help? Depends on each individual woman I think but usually girls I've seen play anything but sisters of battle but it may be due to ease of access and old models.

Of course I've known girls that like sexy women, yaoi or don't mind anime boob physics. I mean anime has female representation but groping is a common joke in anime yet that probably isn't enough to discourage women watching. I also agree with warhammer 40k getting more male players and usually with several exceptions at my local gw the female players are a girlfriend, wife, sister or mother and usually quits if the male she's attached to does.

I honestly think if you want to attract a lot of women you'd probably have to anime-ize 40k make a few of the primarchs in 30k effeminate men engaging in acts of love or "love" with other primarchs.

I'd also like to make a point the gw makes great strides for female gamers sometimes at the cost of alienating long time male players. Some years back there was one girl introduced to warhammer by a few dudes and she played but eventually seemed to give up and move on. So much effort was placed on her including getting quite the haul of new models at the Christmas exchanges we have and she still later left.

Keep in mind when she was still new and tried flirting with a dude till it ended up he was getting married and she went outside for a bit i found it funny that the store manager told me id get kicked out of the shop if i ever made her feel uncomfortable. The reason that was brought up was when she left I said "woah! She's cute!". Yes I know I should be flailed for thinking a woman is cute. I rarely talked to her since and every conversation with her became incredibly forced, neutered and uncomfortable for me because i didnt want to get a store ban. Oh and the average girl at said gw gets treated better by a significant margin than any of the men. But I guess we'll get into that data so maybe another time. In fact guys are far bigger jerks to each other at the gw so I should be talking about elitist jerks that ruin things in the store for everybody else. Hardcore players are more than just white guys here and honestly there are so few women I don't think many do competitive.

Reposting this because there’s feth all wrong with it:

Anyway, over the last 5 years or so I’ve seen a marked increase in the number of women getting into the hobby. Well, in my area at least. And it’s a good thing. I welcome increasing diversity in the hobby.

And at the same time I’ve been seeing more female representation in the miniatures; dark eldar, Stormcast, nighthaunt, genestealer cults, and now the new sisters of battle. And they’re better represented too. No longer are they just eye candy in bikini armour; they’re ‘legit’, if you understand what I mean.

And I see a sort of chicken and the egg scenario here; is GW making more female minis because more women are getting into their product? Or are more women being drawn into the hobby because of the increasingly better representation of them? Is it both? Or is it irrelevant? At any rate, it’s something I can’t help but ponder.

It's still quoted above, but looks like it was removed accidentally when all of the OT chatter was cleaned out of the thread. So no, there was nothing wrong with that post.

I dont get it, what do you mean transitioning?

Edit - Oh i get it, it says identify, i thought it said what are you.

Edit - Nvm i don't get it, how does a male transition to a male?

 Stormatious wrote:
I dont get it, what do you mean transitioning?

Edit - Oh i get it, it says identify, i thought it said what are you.

Edit - Nvm i don't get it, how does a male transition to a male?

It means you start as a female, and you transition to a male.
Logically it should actually go under female as one is still a female at that point, imo.

To everyone who's making light of transgender folk-please stop.

Some people are cisgender, born in a body that matches their gender expression. That's fine, and it's easy to be happy in your proper body. I personally fall under this category.

Some people are transgender, born in a body that does not match their gender expression. And it royally sucks to be dealing with a body that doesn't match how you feel. Luckily, modern medicine is capable of hormone therapy and top and/or bottom surgeries that can help someone be in their proper body.

Some people are gender fluid, when their gender isn't consistent. They might express as male one day, and female the next.

Some people are non-binary, identifying as neither male nor female.

And all of that is okay-while transgender or others on the LGBTQ spectrum have struggles that people not on it don't have, they're still people who deserve respect and NOT mocking.

Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

Being trans is not a disorder. I'm sorry that people weren't understanding of your issues, but that's no reason to make light of someone else's struggles.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

Being trans is not a disorder. I'm sorry that people weren't understanding of your issues, but that's no reason to make light of someone else's struggles.

Except it is entirely normal to make light of people who are different. Comedians do it all the time. It is likely something that is very important in normalising minorities in the eyes of society at large and combating prejudice.

What is important is that it is done without malice and isn't hurtful, just like it is with literally everyone, right up to and including white, hetero, males. As someone who hasn't made comments and doesn't identify as transgender, you aren't placed to comment from either perspective, and therefore are getting offended on behalf of somebody else, which is a behaviour that's widespread online, and is what really has to stop.

Demographically speaking, I'm about as "normal" as it gets. White, male, straight. All the things. But I do also suffer with a life limiting chronic illness, which does mark me out as somehwhat of a minority. I cannot tell you how irritating it is when somebody, no matter how well meaning, steps in and makes decisions for me on my own capabilites without consulting me. Arguing on behalf of a group you aren't part of is much like this. Equality is fighting your own battles, not having people think they have to fight them for you.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

Being trans is not a disorder. I'm sorry that people weren't understanding of your issues, but that's no reason to make light of someone else's struggles.

Except it is entirely normal to make light of people who are different. Comedians do it all the time. It is likely something that is very important in normalising minorities in the eyes of society at large and combating prejudice.

What is important is that it is done without malice and isn't hurtful, just like it is with literally everyone, right up to and including white, hetero, males. As someone who hasn't made comments and doesn't identify as transgender, you aren't placed to comment from either perspective, and therefore are getting offended on behalf of somebody else, which is a behaviour that's widespread online, and is what really has to stop.

Demographically speaking, I'm about as "normal" as it gets. White, male, straight. All the things. But I do also suffer with a life limiting chronic illness, which does mark me out as somehwhat of a minority. I cannot tell you how irritating it is when somebody, no matter how well meaning, steps in and makes decisions for me on my own capabilites without consulting me. Arguing on behalf of a group you aren't part of is much like this. Equality is fighting your own battles, not having people think they have to fight them for you.

Wow, I never thought I'd see such a wordy defense of bigotry.

You don't have to be disabled to see someone bullying a disabled person and say "that's wrong stop it." You don't have to be "upset" or "triggered" to act like a decent human being.

And oftentimes it is having a person/people in the community already standing up and saying something is wrong to get change going. If someone new to the LGS tells someone to stop being a jerk they may or may not get the reaction they want. If the top X-wing player, a guy who runs the best tourneys and is well known, tells someone to cool it they're much more likely to get traction. Even if the top player is a white guy and not part of the minority involved.

What is important is that it is done without malice and isn't hurtful

And that's why this whole thread went off the rails, because the whole "I identify as a helicopter' meme is intended to be hurtful and mock a struggle people go through.

@scarletrose: Yeah but what bothers me most about my condition is when people treat me as a child much like people do with mentally disabled people. Give it a guess which side tends to do that and no it's not the side I tend to be on. It's basically like being between a rock and a hard place. You either get people feeling sorry for your problems and treating you like a victim/child which can't make their own decisions or you get people that are either inconsiderate or just don't know how to handle your problems. Honestly i'd probably prefer the latter because at least they treat me like an adult.

I get the whole helicopter talk people are saying is a bit of a jerk move on their part. For me I just find the 50 genders thing to be a bit excessive to say the least.

--------

Anyway to get back on topic I still don't see many women at the GW. When I go on Saturday and sunday which are some of the busiest days there's just not much. If we got 2 or 3 women on Saturday that'd probably be a lot. Compare that to like 20 guys coming and going throughout the day. I feel no reason to try hard to get women into the hobby honestly. I get that it's an un-tapped demographic and that can be good but you risk alienating your current player base by changing the lore and things too much. I mean do you guys remember the backlash when they tried to give Link from Zelda brown hair or James bond blonde hair and this was years ago. Established franchises with hardcore fanbases are some hard things to shift. Just to give you an idea what if they decided to remake the Alien series and make Ripley a man. Jesus there'd be backlash and that's normal for beloved franchises that span decades. Hardcore fans are just that way.

Whatever, I'm not going to get dragged into any long discussion about this. One post in and you're already strawmanning "making light" into "abuse" and throwing words like triggered around. This isn't the basis for any sort of constructive discussion.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Whatever, I'm not going to get dragged into any long discussion about this. One post in and you're already strawmanning "making light" into "abuse" and throwing words like triggered around. This isn't the basis for any sort of constructive discussion.

So, reading Scarlet Rose's post, they never once said abuse, and while they did say the word triggered, they didn't say anyone was.

The only strawman I see is yours here.

You don't have to be disabled to see someone bullying a disabled person

Bullying is a form abuse dude. Weren't you aware? As for triggered, my point was more that once that sort of language starts flying, it's a good indicator that reasonable discourse is on its way out of the door. Hence I am following it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

You don't have to be disabled to see someone bullying a disabled person

Bullying is a form abuse dude. Weren't you aware?

Bullying can be considered abuse, sure. But, least as far as I know, abuse has stronger connotations than bullying. If you're working under a different definition, that'd at least explain the difference.

No, you're using semantics. Abuse has no codified definition as far as I'm aware that means it has stopped being bullying.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

Being trans is not a disorder. I'm sorry that people weren't understanding of your issues, but that's no reason to make light of someone else's struggles.

I'm not really trying to make light of anybody's issues. Thing is you can choose whether or not to let it bother you. Yeah sometimes things they say bug me but you know what a lot of those people are jerks and they tend to get people to hate them anyway.

I have known people with my disorder that don't try though and lean on their disorder as an excuse to do nothing however. I'd say I've even done this myself with taking a while to get a job but it helps and gives you self worth. I get Trans people do go through some crap and then there are famous ones with huge fan-bases. Perhaps you can't let the bad people get to you and just gotta believe in yourself more. Seeing myself as a victim has never helped me and in some cases self-improvement has done far more for me than feeling sorry about myself ever has. Not to mention feeling sorry for yourself is a bit selfish and sometimes you concentrate on how bad things are for you that you forget to realize other people trying to help you. In some cases you see their interaction even if sympathetic as a threat so you attack believing you're defending yourself. Believe me I've been bullied and I get the victim idea but you can't look at yourself as a constant victim if you want to grow as a person.

Anyway I say all that with experience. There are people that have tried to help me that I totally lashed out at verbally. When you find out about it you feel like such a jerk.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, you're using semantics. Abuse has no codified definition as far as I'm aware that means it has stopped being bullying.

If John in high school calls Bob mean names, and Bob's response is "I wish he'd be nicer, but whatever," is that bullying? I'd say yes. (And that's something that should be stopped.) Is that abuse? I'd say no.

More on the point, you're at the very least coming off as insensitive. If that's not your intent, that's good, but then you might want to adjust your language.

Wiki wrote:Bullying is the use of force, coercion, or threat, to abuse , aggressively dominate or intimidate

Are we done now?

Or would you like a crack at arguing that abusing somebody doesn't always constitute abuse?

 Azreal13 wrote:

Wiki wrote:Bullying is the use of force, coercion, or threat, to abuse , aggressively dominate or intimidate

Are we done now?

Considering you're ignoring what I said, I suppose.

So, more important than arguing semantics, do you support transgender rights? Because while we can agree to disagree on exact definitions and the intent of other posters' words, this is something more important.

I support everybody's rights. I believe everybody has the right to live the life they choose free of negative consequences, as long as those choices don't negatively impact other people. I would not, for example, support a person's right to be a serial killer or a paedophile.

I actually used disability as an example because I was thinking of my own LGS - one of my friends only has the use of one arm. He loves games but it does mean he plays a bit slower simply because it's harder to move things and roll handfuls of dice with only one hand.

If I saw someone mocking him and told them to quit it the response "he's the only one who can object, that's equality!" isn't an uplifting lesson on rights, it's an isolating tactic used to bully.

Since the conversation seems to have died down I'll leave it at that for anyone who wants to think about it.

Question - Why cant i identify as a frog, the question is if you either identify as a male or female, but as long as its asking what i identify as why cant i add a frog in?. I said i identify as a bull frog, and my message got deleted.

I understand it seems im trolling or being silly, but im being serious, why cant i identify as a frog.

You cant literately be a frog, and a female cant literally be a male, so why cant i say this? Both things are equally impossible so i don't get what the problem is.



EDIT - This thread is political, and is a hot button topic.

 Stormatious wrote:
Question - Why cant i identify as a frog, the question is if you either identify as a male or female, but as long as its asking what i identify as why cant i add a frog in?. I said i identify as a bull frog, and my message got deleted.

I understand it seems im trolling or being silly, but im being serious, why cant i identify as a frog.

You cant literately be a frog, and a female cant literally be a male, so why cant i say this? Both things are equally impossible so i don't get what the problem is.



EDIT - This thread is political, and is a hot button topic.

So maybe if your previous post was deleted as trolling, it might have been better to go away and educate yourself on the issue, rather than reposting it and expecting a forum devoted to toy soldiers to be the place to educate you about gender issues.

And it would be less of a 'hot button topic' if people refrained from posting ignorant nonsense. If you don't actually understand the issue, you're not equipped to discuss it.

Excuse me? Would you like to be more rude?.



Educate my self in what aspect, want to be more specific and asnwer why i am in wrong instead of your typical nonsense. I dont respect you or what you have to say Insaniak, so please dont talk to me.


And how can you allow this thread then if your going to say im talking about some thing that has nothing to do with this forum?. Genius.

 Stormatious wrote:
Excuse me? Would you like to be more rude?.



Educate my self in what aspect, want to be more specific and asnwer why i am in wrong instead of your typical nonsense. I dont respect you or what you have to say Insaniak, so please dont talk to me.


And how can you allow this thread then if your going to say im talking about some thing that has nothing to do with this forum?. Genius.

The thread is a discussion of the poll topic, which is about the ratio of male to female players.

It is not a discussion on the science and psychology behind gender identity. Interjecting with nonsense conflating being transgender with claiming that you are a frog does not in any way further the actual discussion here.

-removed-

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well personally I think yeah they should be treated well (though it depends more how nice said trans person or whoever is) but the whole gender fluid, non-binary and to an extent Trans stuff sounds more like a disorder. I have a disorder and that's ok. I have autism and am lucky enough to be fairly high functioning. Yes it sucks to have a disorder and you often get made fun of. We're all nerds and awkward though so I assume we've all been made fun of at one point. Some people are just jerks. That's life man. You can't let it get you down.

Because i'm nice however i'll go along with the gender people identify as in the choices. I only wish people could've been more respectful of my disorders but at least they understood medication would help.

Being trans is not a disorder. I'm sorry that people weren't understanding of your issues, but that's no reason to make light of someone else's struggles.

Except it is entirely normal to make light of people who are different. Comedians do it all the time. It is likely something that is very important in normalising minorities in the eyes of society at large and combating prejudice.

What is important is that it is done without malice and isn't hurtful, just like it is with literally everyone, right up to and including white, hetero, males. As someone who hasn't made comments and doesn't identify as transgender, you aren't placed to comment from either perspective, and therefore are getting offended on behalf of somebody else, which is a behaviour that's widespread online, and is what really has to stop.

Demographically speaking, I'm about as "normal" as it gets. White, male, straight. All the things. But I do also suffer with a life limiting chronic illness, which does mark me out as somehwhat of a minority. I cannot tell you how irritating it is when somebody, no matter how well meaning, steps in and makes decisions for me on my own capabilites without consulting me. Arguing on behalf of a group you aren't part of is much like this. Equality is fighting your own battles, not having people think they have to fight them for you.

Wow, I never thought I'd see such a wordy defense of bigotry.

You don't have to be disabled to see someone bullying a disabled person and say "that's wrong stop it." You don't have to be "upset" or "triggered" to act like a decent human being.

And oftentimes it is having a person/people in the community already standing up and saying something is wrong to get change going. If someone new to the LGS tells someone to stop being a jerk they may or may not get the reaction they want. If the top X-wing player, a guy who runs the best tourneys and is well known, tells someone to cool it they're much more likely to get traction. Even if the top player is a white guy and not part of the minority involved.

What is important is that it is done without malice and isn't hurtful

And that's why this whole thread went off the rails, because the whole "I identify as a helicopter' meme is intended to be hurtful and mock a struggle people go through.

I think it's important to distinquished between stepping in to defend someone being hurt or bullied, and stepping into an online debate to weigh in with your views about how some minority or other feels and why you have to save them.

The difference is between actively stepping into prevent hurt, and stepping into insert your opinions.

I've seen a lot of bullying in my life and it never ended because someone told the bully how they should be thinking.

If we could all make an attempt to stick to the actual topic, that would be appreciated.

Again, this thread is not the place to discuss identity politics.

 insaniak wrote:
If we could all make an attempt to stick to the actual topic, that would be appreciated.

Again, this thread is not the place to discuss identity politics.

So (someone) deleted my post again, a post that was pretty tame and quite true!

You need to lock this thread.

In my local group there is only maybe 2 regular female plAyers the rest are male. Probably 15+ males oh and Danny the dog but he doesn't participate as much as we would like.

 Togusa wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
If we could all make an attempt to stick to the actual topic, that would be appreciated.

Again, this thread is not the place to discuss identity politics.

So (someone) deleted my post again, a post that was pretty tame and quite true!

You need to lock this thread.

Your post was removed because it was off-topic. Please refrain from making further off-topic posts complaing that your off-topic posts are being removed.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Rather surprised there's been a surge of comments trying to make things more inclusive for girls in war-gaming. What somebody decides to enjoy should be their own choice rather than the choices of any internet group. Personally I think girl war-gamers tend to be less competitive than their male counterparts on average which might explain the lack of women in tournaments.

As far as the game goes there's a few girl painters with their own youtube channels though I haven't watched in forever. Will more female models help? Depends on each individual woman I think but usually girls I've seen play anything but sisters of battle but it may be due to ease of access and old models.

Of course I've known girls that like sexy women, yaoi or don't mind anime boob physics. I mean anime has female representation but groping is a common joke in anime yet that probably isn't enough to discourage women watching. I also agree with warhammer 40k getting more male players and usually with several exceptions at my local gw the female players are a girlfriend, wife, sister or mother and usually quits if the male she's attached to does.

I honestly think if you want to attract a lot of women you'd probably have to anime-ize 40k make a few of the primarchs in 30k effeminate men engaging in acts of love or "love" with other primarchs.

I'd also like to make a point the gw makes great strides for female gamers sometimes at the cost of alienating long time male players. Some years back there was one girl introduced to warhammer by a few dudes and she played but eventually seemed to give up and move on. So much effort was placed on her including getting quite the haul of new models at the Christmas exchanges we have and she still later left.

Keep in mind when she was still new and tried flirting with a dude till it ended up he was getting married and she went outside for a bit i found it funny that the store manager told me id get kicked out of the shop if i ever made her feel uncomfortable. The reason that was brought up was when she left I said "woah! She's cute!". Yes I know I should be flailed for thinking a woman is cute. I rarely talked to her since and every conversation with her became incredibly forced, neutered and uncomfortable for me because i didnt want to get a store ban. Oh and the average girl at said gw gets treated better by a significant margin than any of the men. But I guess we'll get into that data so maybe another time. In fact guys are far bigger jerks to each other at the gw so I should be talking about elitist jerks that ruin things in the store for everybody else. Hardcore players are more than just white guys here and honestly there are so few women I don't think many do competitive.

Just don't talk about people's appearances behind their backs? "Whoah, he's handsome" isn't really uncreepy. If you're going to talk about people in the shop, maybe stick to their gaming qualities?



My wife games, but she won't enter any FLGS again because too many of the patrons creep her out (by their words and behavior).

Yeah, that "treated better by a significant margin than any of the men" isn't what it looks like. I think many heterosexual men would find being "treated better" by men as annoying as women find it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Just don't talk about people's appearances behind their backs? "Whoah, he's handsome" isn't really uncreepy. If you're going to talk about people in the shop, maybe stick to their gaming qualities?



My wife games, but she won't enter any FLGS again because too many of the patrons creep her out (by their words and behavior).

Not really. I'd actually find it flattering if women said that about me. Also what gaming qualities did she have since she was barely ever there up to that point.

I mean I don't know if I brought it up but she was somewhat flirting with a dude there that ended up having a fiancée and stopped when she found out. She also became a girlfriend of one gamer guy there and later married another (she split on good terms with the first).

Honestly I think this is all just different people with different opinions and if a guy saying a girl is cute to another guy is creepy then I don't really care about being that level of creepy. Besides I've had a girl give me her Steam name after only one visit at said game shop (she doesn't visit much) and another girl war-gamer on this very web site give me a picture of her when I was curious. I've also received certain intimate pics of a woman without asking for them. I never thought of that as "creepy" when said girl did that. In fact I've had girls say stuff to me I wanted to collect the evidence for just in case they end up being crazy and spiteful. I'm just rather scared these days as it pays to be careful rather than serving jail time for something you never did.

@nurglitch: For what it's worth i'd be more annoyed at not being treated as a gamer on equal footing and people being too nice to me. Of course I probably see this in a different light but still negative. People are willing to help out newbies more but at the same time there is an "old boy's club" mentality with "in" and "out" groups at my local game store. It's not all bad though. A lot of the "in" group people are jerks I'd rather not be around anyway.

This is getting beyond the scope of this thread, but here goes:

First, not everyone feels the same way, and it doesn't mean the other people are wrong. I saw a video of a guy who liked to have his nuts stomped on--does that mean he should assume that everyone feels the same way about having their nuts stomped? Just because you (and I) would love to hear compliments about our appearances doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, it is well known that many people do not want to hear it if you think they are attractive. That, among many other reasons, is why it is considered rude. You don't have to feel it yourself; just respect it. People don't want to hear how hot you or I think they are. The guy who told you he would ban you--he did that because you crossed a line, not because he was unreasonable. You don't get it? So ask. Ask everyone. Learn more. It's always good to learn about what you don't understand rather than denying it or pushing back.

The golden rule is wrong: instead of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" it should be "do unto others as they would want to be treated (within reason)". (Think about how Mr Stompy Balls might interpret the first differently from the second.)

If you are talking about someone because you think she can't hear you...maybe she can, or hear you quoted later...so you should talk like she definitely can hear you. I know from personal experience that a lot of people commenting on my appearance aren't as discrete as they think they are.

With whom she was flirting is her business and has no bearing on how you should treat her (unless it was with you). That is totally irrelevant to the game, and a faux pas to comment on. (No one likes a third party commenting on their 'game'.).

The stuff about different women behaving differently because they are different. Well, yeah. That's why you should not assume they would all react the same way to "flattery". Best just to avoid it altogether in a game store.

Marxist artist wrote:
In my local group there is only maybe 2 regular female plAyers the rest are male. Probably 15+ males oh and Danny the dog but he doesn't participate as much as we would like.

I think danny the dog is just misunderstood... 100% wants to play