So I'm taking a break from a day of boring grown-up stuff to bring you this:
I started 40k in earnest with Orks. Once I got them where I wanted, I graduated to using Guard and now Blood Angels.
I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.
IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.
Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:
* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.
* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.
* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.
* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.
* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.
* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).
* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!
One of my friends, who has been playing 40k for as long as I have, plays Orks and he can Curb stomp anything from novices to competitive players: in small point games he almost always beats me.
From my experience it seems to be that, in small point games, Orks excel because they can take so much more than you for so much cheaper; Ork boyz in trukks are dirt cheap but with 4 (or is it 3?) attacks on the charge and furious charge they hit like a truck, as a CSM player I have found my Chaos lord has been drowned in attacks more times than I can remember 'cause the damned green skins just won't route; Ork bikerz, like all bikes, are extremely fast and have a pretty nice cover save with jink and dirt cloud(?) for a 3+ cover and once again they are dirt cheap; Ork gunlines, never before have I underestimated something so much, I once took a cc army against my Ork friend for a good old fashioned brawl but he took a gunline and drowned my cc units in 100s of shots.
At higher point games I can start taking things where, no matter how many of a unit he spams, he won't scratch me: even my Lord of Skulls will out class his Stompa in cc.
I agree with you completely, Orks aren't feeling the love at the moment but they are far from bottom tier.
I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.
Blackie wrote: I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.
That's.. a strange list, Sisters are about mid tier, tyranids are low, same with AM and BA, but the rest are about mid tier with the exception of Genestealer cults which is doing very well.
mrhappyface wrote: One of my friends, who has been playing 40k for as long as I have, plays Orks and he can Curb stomp anything from novices to competitive players: in small point games he almost always beats me.
From my experience it seems to be that, in small point games, Orks excel because they can take so much more than you for so much cheaper; Ork boyz in trukks are dirt cheap but with 4 (or is it 3?) attacks on the charge and furious charge they hit like a truck, as a CSM player I have found my Chaos lord has been drowned in attacks more times than I can remember 'cause the damned green skins just won't route; Ork bikerz, like all bikes, are extremely fast and have a pretty nice cover save with jink and dirt cloud(?) for a 3+ cover and once again they are dirt cheap; Ork gunlines, never before have I underestimated something so much, I once took a cc army against my Ork friend for a good old fashioned brawl but he took a gunline and drowned my cc units in 100s of shots.
At higher point games I can start taking things where, no matter how many of a unit he spams, he won't scratch me: even my Lord of Skulls will out class his Stompa in cc.
I agree with you completely, Orks aren't feeling the love at the moment but they are far from bottom tier.
What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.
What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.
His two main lists that he runs are Boyz in Trukk spam with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble and dirt clouds for 3+. These are the backbone of his lists but he runs variences of them depending on whether he is going uber comp.
He has faced and beaten: Chaos Daemon, CSM, IG, AM, Necrons, Tau, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Orks, Eldar and IK, these are the ones I know he has beaten within our group or in tournaments we have entered together but he has probably beaten more that I don't know about. To be fair, he is a very good player despite how often he might slow play for his own benefit. *salt*
Orks were my first army and I remember them performing exceptionally well in non-competetive metas. Players would routinely underestimate the grotesque damage output of slugga boyz; many a SM player understandably was not prepared to watch 5 Terminators lose to 10 charging Boyz, in particular those who were introduced through the lore.
Blackie wrote: I think there are 5-6 armies that are certainly better than the other ones, and then those remaining armies are basically on the same level. Many people that run the most effective armies are not great players as their lists don't need a lot of tactics and are very simple to use. So if they have the chance to play an army that requires some skills they seem lost and consider it pure garbage. Maybe tyranids and sistes are the real bottom tiers but among orks, dark eldar, astra militarum, blood angels dark angels, skitarii, mechanicus, genestealer cult and many chaos lists there's not a real winner, it mostly depends on the ability of the players involved and the dice rolling. So orks can achieve average results, they really struggle with very high format games as the most competiive units fit in a 1000 points list and we don't have an effective decurion, that helps some armies in big games.
That's.. a strange list, Sisters are about mid tier, tyranids are low, same with AM and BA, but the rest are about mid tier with the exception of Genestealer cults which is doing very well.
Well i said tyranids are among the worst, sisters without a IK allied are really weak, gen cults are situational and random, with my orks and space wolves i won't have problems facing them, they're very good only against armies with a lot of shooty units hidden in their deployed zone. Honestly only SM, eldar and tau are really better than other armies, then Daemons, necrons and SW. The remaining ones are not as powerful as the most competitive armies, but basically i can't say orks are better than DE or AM, or dark angels better than skitarii, they're all on the same level basically.
What list did he run in low points? Did he beat Tau players even at low points? I find that really unlikely. I'm wondering myself since one of the only armies I fought was an ork player who liked low point games 1000 and under despite having way more.
Tau in 1000 points lists are almost unbeatable only if they have 3 riptides, otherwise they're good but orks can certainly win some games against them.
Horde orks with power claws in every squad seems tough to beat and has an answer to most things I can think of. It's an army I'd love to try out but I don't think I'd have the patience to paint all of those bodies
Orks are fine, arguably even strong, from a from a fluffy bunny perspective or in games where no one is optimizing much. The problem comes around when they start going against people who care enough about winning to play / list build towards that game.
Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game. When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.
Trukks are cheap and cheerful while Battlewagons are moderately priced and decently tough. But again, against well-built armies both are apt to die to a stiff breeze. And if that stiff breeze causes them to explode (Hint: Against most top armies, it will) then they're taking half of their passengers down with them.. Before Mob Rule drags a few more down.
Ork specialists are pretty good at what they do. They're also universally rocking 6+ saves and come in fairly small unit sizes, whilst not being cheap on points. Their transports can be easily popped by anti tank, putting on a decent amount of woods, and then you can safely lasgun / bolter the survivors down in a single turn.
The only things which Orks still have going for them are green tide and MSU spam. Given a unit of trukk boyz can clock in at around 100 points, and green tide is hard to shift once it starts locking itself in combat, these are decent tricks. They're just, sadly, the only tricks Orks have. And against competitive armies, they're weak tricks.
I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it
Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game.
Nope they aren't they are horrible. -Dirt Slow. -Are one of the only troop options in the game with LD issues. -Have almost no good wargear options. -They are overpriced.for their durability
When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.
and for their close combat prowess. -> Just look at genestealer hybrids.
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mrhappyface wrote: with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble
You know that a Big mek on a bike + the MEGA kustom force field + 3 nobz on bikes costs 270 points before weapon upgrades, and that he can't pull this trick off on foot in a trukk since the field doesn't extend beyond the inside of a transport right. What sane ork player would spend 270 points a HQ in a low points game ? On top that you can only field him in a Waaaagh ghazzz detachment and those aren't without their serious downsides, such as unwieldy detachments, having to accept challenges and a serious nerf of the mob rule.
Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game.
Nope they aren't they are horrible.
-Dirt Slow.
-Are one of the only troop options in the game with LD issues.
-Have almost no good wargear options.
-They are overpriced.for their durability
When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.
and for their close combat prowess. -> Just look at genestealer hybrids.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
mrhappyface wrote: with a Big Mek for the 4++ invul bubble and Nob Biker spam with a big mek for the 4++ bubble
You know that a Big mek on a bike + the MEGA kustom force field costs 135 points before any weapon upgrade right...
And that you can only field him in a Waaaagh ghazzz detachment and those aren't without their serious downsides that I would not want to have in a low point game.
I'm not telling you that 'In theory, if you take a big mek with the MKFF Orks are good', I am telling you this is what my friend takes and he can give top tier armies a good run around.
morganfreeman wrote: Orks are fine, arguably even strong, from a from a fluffy bunny perspective or in games where no one is optimizing much. The problem comes around when they start going against people who care enough about winning to play / list build towards that game.
Boys are some of the best troops in the game. They are, however, just not very tough in today's game. When you have Eldar and Tau throwing disgusting amounts of firepower down range.. You'll lose whole mobs of boys in a single shooting phase.
Trukks are cheap and cheerful while Battlewagons are moderately priced and decently tough. But again, against well-built armies both are apt to die to a stiff breeze. And if that stiff breeze causes them to explode (Hint: Against most top armies, it will) then they're taking half of their passengers down with them.. Before Mob Rule drags a few more down.
Ork specialists are pretty good at what they do. They're also universally rocking 6+ saves and come in fairly small unit sizes, whilst not being cheap on points. Their transports can be easily popped by anti tank, putting on a decent amount of woods, and then you can safely lasgun / bolter the survivors down in a single turn.
The only things which Orks still have going for them are green tide and MSU spam. Given a unit of trukk boyz can clock in at around 100 points, and green tide is hard to shift once it starts locking itself in combat, these are decent tricks. They're just, sadly, the only tricks Orks have. And against competitive armies, they're weak tricks.
I have beaten several cheese builds from the competitive players at my club (the guys who go to and win tournaments). This has included skyhammer, necron decurion and tau. Even when I've lost to Tau I've done a lot of damage and it's been far from a walkover for my opponent. The things they say they don't like are the amount of armour 14 on the board, bikes with painboyz and the megaboss with lukky stikk soaking up all of their supporting fire overwatch. I don't find that my wagons get "easily popped" when I've brought that many, either.
Please note I'm not saying I'm an amazing player or that Orks are the best army, I'm just saying I can hang.
OrkaMorka wrote: I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it
See I just wouldn't bother making it shooty unless I had flash gitz in it, in which case the killkannon gels with them well. A single big shoota to defend against immobilised results is all I bother with for anything else.
For what i have seen, and fought against, Orks seem to do a lot better when you run them as a swarm army, just a gak ton of boyz and then just overwhelm them with numbers.
That said, one 1850 list i saw that i kninda wanna run is 30 boyz, 15 armored mekanobz, 5 battle waggons, and i think it was gazgrimskull. The whole army gets to scout so the whole army is half way across the board before turn one.
OrkaMorka wrote: I'm only to disagree with the battlewagon. I find it a really point inefficent bus. The high armor helps, but the cost to make it shooty sucks. Because of that, you can only take so many and then it becomes a fat target. Fearless boys and a rocking deff rolla used to make them awesome. It's also too bad that you can't take any of the upgraded mek guns on them. If that was the case, they d actually be worth it
See I just wouldn't bother making it shooty unless I had flash gitz in it, in which case the killkannon gels with them well. A single big shoota to defend against immobilised results is all I bother with for anything else.
But then it's finding a purpose to have flash gitz.
I have beaten several cheese builds from the competitive players at my club (the guys who go to and win tournaments). This has included skyhammer, necron decurion and tau. Even when I've lost to Tau I've done a lot of damage and it's been far from a walkover for my opponent. The things they say they don't like are the amount of armour 14 on the board, bikes with painboyz and the megaboss with lukky stikk soaking up all of their supporting fire overwatch. I don't find that my wagons get "easily popped" when I've brought that many, either.
Please note I'm not saying I'm an amazing player or that Orks are the best army, I'm just saying I can hang.
I.
Er.
Necrons saying they don't like the amount of armor 14 on the board? Tau having problems with bikers? The basic necron gun has grav-light when it comes to vehicles, and their CC units come bog-standard with high attacks, good strength, and rending. Tau basically invalidate cover as a rule.
Again, Orks aren't the worst army out there (non-flyrant spam nids, foot guard, baseline CSM) and actually have some lists / units which can do fine in a fluffy / moderately competitive environment. I really have to question the competency of your tournament players / tournament scene from what you've said, because those armies shouldn't having those problems when it comes to orks.
Necrons saying they don't like the amount of armor 14 on the board?
...
The basic necron gun has grav-light when it comes to vehicles...
Yes, but they've got to get into rapid-fire range to pose a serious threat to my vehicles, which also puts them in charge range and uses up firepower that could have been used to kill the boyz once they got out. They tend to prioritise the boss' wagon, so I position him so as to soak up further fire that comes the squad's way. My wagons are there to get my boyz into combat, survival after that is just a bonus.
and their CC units come bog-standard with high attacks, good strength, and rending.
You are making it sound like all necron units come with these rules and actually they don't. You also appear to be assuming that I (the player with more mobility and thus choice of targets) will always have to pit my melee units against his melee units - if Ork players in your area play like that then yes I can see why you get a bad impression.
Flayed ones do actually concern me due to weight of dice, so I simply avoid them and/or shoot them. If I have to get into combat with them I do at least do fair damage due to striking at the same time.
Other necron melee units are designed for anti-elite duties and their weapons are wasted on mere boyz.
Tau having problems with bikers? Tau basically invalidate cover as a rule.
And T5, and feel no pain (if I stick a painboy in there), and 4+ armour that I can still use against smart missiles, and my own firepower coming from the bikers, and the rest of my army getting on top of him at the same time.
Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.
I think the biggest 'wider meta' problem orks face is how the 'wider meta' bias towards 2 hour games.
So many battle reports I see "blah blasted my stuff turns 1, 2 and 3. I almost got my foot sloggers in to position and it looked like the battle was going to turn my way but the store was closing/the bus was due/the round was called so instead I took a loss".
When I was an active whfb player the armies I'd take to a store were radically different to house play. Time and baggage constraints are much more relaxed when you can leave an army and books at a friends house or vice versa.
If instead of an in/out job at the local store/club/tourney round you play beer/pretzel or tea/cake hammer at a friends house slow play armies are more attractive as you hope to spend a whole evening having fun.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.
Doesn't always happen that way in my experience. Especially with the boss and/or big mek helping them out.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would any Necron Warrior care about being in rapid fire range? They'll pass through 75% of any wounds you manage to do on the charge. Then the boys will be tarpitted forever.
Doesn't always happen that way in my experience. Especially with the boss and/or big mek helping them out.
You mean the
You are talking about the Big Mek, where you land one hit on average and you have to wound and then get through a FNP equivalent.
No, Orks are straight up bad. I'd rather take Tactical Marines in a CAD than Ork Boyz. That's saying a lot.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
Krusha wrote: So I'm taking a break from a day of boring grown-up stuff to bring you this:
I started 40k in earnest with Orks. Once I got them where I wanted, I graduated to using Guard and now Blood Angels.
I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.
IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.
Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:
* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.
* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.
* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.
* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.
* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.
* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).
* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!
What do you guys think?
You forgot the actual best units of the codex. Meganobz and lobbas.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
No we wouldn't.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
Two of the most resounding losses I can remember from the past few years have been to Ork hordes. Just so many models. So. . . .many. . . .
The great thing about the Ork Truks (and Battlewagons) is that they can banzai charge up the table and get in your face. When they get killed, whatever was inside usually just assaults you, since the vehicle is open-topped. You kill some Orks in the process of killing the vehicle, sure, but they're cheap as dirt, and the Nob is guaranteed to stay alive. So you could then shoot the Nob and the rest of the unit, but then you've spent at least 2 units firing to get rid of one truck of guys. And there's never just one or two units immediately threatening assaults. There's usually 5-6.
Oi, Lobbas. T7 Gretchin in 4+ Ruins raining death on any marine who's deployed to bring bolters to bear on the rest of the 120-man Horde.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.
Cultists are 10pts cheaper but for your 10pts you get +1WS (yes at the loss of of 1BS but Slugga boys don't care about shooting), you get +1T and +1A. Your speed problem is solved by the ability to take dedicated transport, something cultists can't do. Your leadership problem is solved by a 15pt Nob with a boss poll, who will out punch a cultist champion any day (and can also take down IK if you give him a klaw). 60pts gives you a cheap troop choice that can actually hit and hit hard, asking for them to be tougher than they are is just greedy. As a CSM player I would love for Cultists to get Ork Boyz' rules.
Are we really comparing a unit that people tend to take only to sit on objectives in the backline gone to ground with a unit that is supposed to get up into melee and hopefully do damage?
Also Cultists aren't the mainstay of a force for us CSM players.
We are comparing two cheap troop choices for around the same price, one can do nothing more than hold down objectives, the other can hold down objectives and also smash face rather impressively. Ork lists don't have to centre around boyz and many don't but most have boyz at their core because they're a good troop choice.
Cultists aren't the backbone of a CSM force because cultists aren't that good. If cultists had Ork boyz' loadouts wouldn't you take loads of them?
I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
No, I really wouldn't, because unlike Orks my other slots have things that are actually worth taking even before my Slaaneshi troops gained their new detachment. We also have tons of different cultist formations for fearless, zealot, returns on 4+ etc...
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
cause orks don't have cultists?
Also you keep forgetting trukks and the fact that boyz can be obsec and fill a cad requirement while regenerating cultists can't.
And once again, the fact that boyz are not 'amazing' doesn't make them automatically bad. They have their place. I've used a trukk of boyz to great succsess for quite some time. Including tourney games vs some hard lists. One could say that footslogging ork blobz are weak in the current meta - and it's often true but there are also some exceptions (biker or megaarmored boss, for example). But you can't take the trukk out of equation cause it's the boy'z dedicated transport. And a trukk is one of the best cheap assault transports in the game - if not THE best.
No, I really wouldn't, because unlike Orks my other slots have things that are actually worth taking even before my Slaaneshi troops gained their new detachment. We also have tons of different cultist formations for fearless, zealot, returns on 4+ etc...
You clearly aren't paying attention to what I said: if cultists gain Ork statline and rules you would spam them. That means you can still take cultist formations but the cultists now have boy rules. I would pay over 60pts to have an Ork boy statline for my LatD plague zombies army.
Now you might say "that's not a fair comparison, Orks don't have formations like the LatD" well I say that's more to do with Orks being neglected a decurion update rather than Boyz being bad because you and I both know that, given the choice, we would rather have Ork boy cultists than regular cultists any day of the week.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
I have been playing CSM for almost 10 years now and I am telling you that Ork boyz instead of cultists would have made me very happy. As someone who started off playing Khorne, Khornate boyz would have been a god send seeing as how Bezerkers are awful.
No, boy cultists wouldn't make much difference in the comp armies that CSM used to have: biker lord with spawn, plague marine melta rhino spam, nurgle bikers, etc. But it would have opened up a new line of Khorne themed armies which would have reflected what Orks bow run but with a Lord rather than a boss and it would have made plague zombies even better.
Your lack of vision when it comes to the application of Cultist boyz makes me think that you aren't really that much of a CSM fan.
The real meat and potatos of a competitive ork list are zhadsnark, Msu bikers, 100 point bustas in trukk, lootas, solo koptas, fearless MANz with killsaws.
Vs tau, you can outflank. Bikers and tankbustas shooting is very effective, zhad and bullyboyz can wipe anything the tau have in cc. Orks tend to dominate early game objectives, the tau don't like getting in close to physically grab an objective like orks can. Zhad, his unit of bikers, and koptas may not be as mobile as the tau during the game, but can scout to seize the early game advantage. Battle wagons can be used this way too. This makes the outflank pretty dangerous and allows the orks to stay in the game during later turns.
Vs necrons bikers shine with their 3+ jink and zhads 2+ jink. A good list should have at least 57 tl s5 shots just from their bikers while maxing tankbustas for 39 total s8 ap3 rokkits and with s9 on the charge and the necrons lacking ap2 in ccMANz can absolutely mulch through anything the necrons have save wraiths, lynch guard, and the overlord. Bikers can tarpit wraiths effectively with their speed and T5. Orks always outnumber necrons and are faster than the decurion so a cagey ork player should almost always win maelstrom.
Vs eldar they have problems securing objectives. We can outnumber their windriders with our warbikers pretty easy so in terms of fast obsec it's a draw. Bullyboyz and zhad pose a real threat to a wraithknight while we can field enough lootas and bustas to harrass it from afar. Lootas make hay with s7 ap4 and average 2 shots, ten per min squad. Good for Crimson hunters, Falcons, wave serpent, fliers, and especially most of their aspect warriors like swooping Hawks and warp spiders. (48" range helps with flicker jump.) powerklaws and rokkits ID pretty much anything eldar have. Koptas with jink and tl rokkits are a total pain.
If you check the tournament ratings thread, the orks place surprisingly high, especially considering they aren't viewed as "competitive" enough to attract the power gamer crowd.
Regarding Orks, they have poor ally choices, next to no utility/tech pieces, extremely limited Psykers, no meaningful Deep Strike, super-limited Outflank (Bossboyz are cool and all, but that negates your Waaagh), no Melta, rending, or Ranged Ignores Cover. They're arguably the only army with an array of Special Rules that actively work against them, including the only Walkers that can be pinned.
It's because of this that they're kept afloat by point-efficient Bikes and Artillery and cheap throwaway scoring units, and generous ITC allowances. Beyond that, they're in a sad state of affairs.
Plus we get infiltrating Cultists that can potentially come back. Why would anyone want Ork Boyz?
We get infiltrate + regen cultists from formations not the base units. I was saying if they had the boyz statline would we spam them and the answer is yes, of course we would.
Um no we wouldn't because we would still use the minimum amount to get other good stuff or just as objective holders.
You don't seem like the kind of person that used the CSM codex before TL.
I have been playing CSM for almost 10 years now and I am telling you that Ork boyz instead of cultists would have made me very happy. As someone who started off playing Khorne, Khornate boyz would have been a god send seeing as how Bezerkers are awful.
No, boy cultists wouldn't make much difference in the comp armies that CSM used to have: biker lord with spawn, plague marine melta rhino spam, nurgle bikers, etc. But it would have opened up a new line of Khorne themed armies which would have reflected what Orks bow run but with a Lord rather than a boss and it would have made plague zombies even better.
Your lack of vision when it comes to the application of Cultist boyz makes me think that you aren't really that much of a CSM fan.
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
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slip wrote: The real meat and potatos of a competitive ork list are zhadsnark, Msu bikers, 100 point bustas in trukk, lootas, solo koptas, fearless MANz with killsaws.
Vs tau, you can outflank. Bikers and tankbustas shooting is very effective, zhad and bullyboyz can wipe anything the tau have in cc. Orks tend to dominate early game objectives, the tau don't like getting in close to physically grab an objective like orks can. Zhad, his unit of bikers, and koptas may not be as mobile as the windriders during the game, but can scout to seize the early game advantage. Battle wagons can be used this way too. This makes the outflank pretty dangerous and allows the orks to stay in the game during later turns.
Vs necrons bikers shine with their 3+ jink and zhads 2+ jink. A good list should have at least 57 tl s5 shots just from their bikers while maxing tankbustas for 39 total s8 ap3 rokkits and with s9 on the charge and the necrons lacking ap2 in ccMANz can absolutely mulch through anything the necrons have save wraiths, lynch guard, and the overlord. Bikers can tarpit wraiths effectively with their speed and T5. Orks always outnumber necrons and are faster than the decurion so a cagey ork player should almost always win maelstrom.
Vs eldar they have problems securing objectives. We can outnumber their windriders with our warbikers pretty easy so in terms of fast obsec it's a draw. Bullyboyz and zhad pose a real threat to a wraithknight while we can field enough lootas and bustas to harrass it from afar. Lootas make hay with s7 ap4 and average 2 shots, ten per min squad. Good for Crimson hunters, Falcons, wave serpent, fliers, and especially most of their aspect warriors like swooping Hawks and warp spiders. (48" range helps with flicker jump.) powerklaws and rokkits ID pretty much anything eldar have. Koptas with jink and tl rokkits are a total pain.
If you check the tournament ratings thread, the orks place surprisingly high, especially considering they aren't viewed as "competitive" enough to attract the power gamer crowd.
Why would Tomb Blades ever care about your jink save?
That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Idk about this one. Every batrep i see, the orks usually win or barely lose. Which gives me hope, but then i think back to the year and a half after i got orks and lost everg game, frequently getting tabled. I think in really casual games, theyre fine. When put up against any kind of cheese though, they quickly crumble. I have, however found they have a kind of anti-meta effect though, given that they dont care about grav or other high strength low ap weapons since they dont have any save to begin with.
Shoota boyz can be effective when paired with the blitz brigade. Killkannon for the wagon, shoota boyz can still fire, are cheap, fill CAD, give obsec. Blitz brigade gives 5x battle wagons with scout. As a Dakka unit it synergizes well because it doesn't care about charging so scout can be optimized. One of the two weaknesses of ork shooting is range, and this helps negate that.
Boyz by themselves are not that impressive and the days of the 30 man blobs are out. They need to be msu'd. 10 with nob with pk and bp is 100, 135 with trukk and you can take up to 12 with a double cad. Msu play negates ld, any individual unit is a write off anyway. The fate of 24 boyz and a nob doesn't rest on the 6 who died. This also helps negate mob rule. This list would dominate maelstrom, especially early, and could walk away with a win if the game cannot be played to completion, as they would struggle more in the later part of the game.
All this to say, many competitive players forgo boyz altogether for Msu obsec grots or Msu warbikes.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.
I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.
E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.
The point is: how many tomb blades a necron player would bring? i usually see 3-6 tomb blades and we're talking about orks lists with more than 20 warbikes. Also tomb blades are among the less resilient units for necrons so they'll recive a lot of attention turn 1. They're not that scary for our bikes unless you bring a tailored list with 12 tomb blades. The canoptek harvest is the real issue as neither the meganobz are really effective against them and our firepower can slow them down killing a few, but we can't really destroy them from distance and probably in close combat too, unless we throw against them 600+ points of dedicated melee units.
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
They would though. Cultists are close to guardsman levels of uselessness in cc, only just better because of two cc weapons. Ork boyz can and have mowed down everything from guardsman, to termimators, to bikers and even IK, if cultists had such wide utility then people would easily take more of them.
Once again, your adamance that no one would take hordes of Ork boy cultists makes me believe that you don't even actually play warhammer! The tactucs I have outlined are some that reflect Ork tactics that have been used to place quite highly in ITC tournaments, along side the top dogs. You can't just say "there rubbish, no one would take them" because players do take them, in droves! Why wouldn't CSM players take advantage of this?
And that's what KDK Cultists are for. Otherwise Cultists are always minimum point objective grabbers. Nobody wants a point increase for them because you think they might do better. They won't.
They would though. Cultists are close to guardsman levels of uselessness in cc, only just better because of two cc weapons. Ork boyz can and have mowed down everything from guardsman, to termimators, to bikers and even IK, if cultists had such wide utility then people would easily take more of them.
Once again, your adamance that no one would take hordes of Ork boy cultists makes me believe that you don't even actually play warhammer! The tactucs I have outlined are some that reflect Ork tactics that have been used to place quite highly in ITC tournaments, along side the top dogs. You can't just say "there rubbish, no one would take them" because players do take them, in droves! Why wouldn't CSM players take advantage of this?
Are you actually saying Ork Boyz have actually beaten Imperial Knights in close combat... I don't even know what to say to this at all. Power to the S4 Orks on charge with klawnob?
Also considering the fact that the latest ITC lists have come out and Ork's aren't anywhere near placed highly to the top.. yeah.
CSM players took cultists because they were the cheapest thing you could take that filled your mandatory slots. Now that we have legion rules, everyone takes a warband and the only cultists you see are those in alpha legion & lost and the damned wheree they get special rules.
As for if CSM got Ork statline troops, well, we did - Tzaangors. They even get their own formation that lets them run and charge and still nobody takes them because they're trash. Why wouldn't we take advantage of it? Because there's nothing to take advantage of. T4 is almost irrelevant, Str3 IS irrelevant, moving 6" a turn is irrelevant, a 6+ "save" is not only irrelevant but absolutely laughable. CSM players are already pushing a heavy rock up a sharp incline, there's no need to make the incline sharper nor the rock heavier by taking units that are worse than the ones we already have. Even if you spend the 4ppm to give them 'Eavy armour, now they're what, 10 ppm? Compare that to the 13ppm of a world eater marine and they're just so much better than a boy that it's not funny. The only thing CSM want out of the Ork dex are Trucks, maaaaaaybe battle wagons.
Orks are decent in a casual setting and will crumble in most competative settings outside of the occassional meta busting lists and/or extreme generalship. Orks have a lower ceiling than other lists because where they used to be able to have more targets than you had bullets, the focus on high RoF, mid Str, relatively poor AP guns means that orks are in a sad state. The mass availability of ignores cover and the fact that it's almost mandatory is one of the other things that will firmly keep orks out of the top half of the tier list as the fact that outside of MAN's and a MA warboss they have basically nothing that won't get absolutely shredded by wyverns, thunderfire cannons, tau HYMP's, MP's and SMS as well as almost anything with the Imperium of Man faction as they can throw a div or geomancy psycher into almost any squad they feel like and hand out ignores cover.
Then you've got the fact that orks struggle to deal with mech in the era of the gladius and you're already in a world of pain, then you have Imperial Knights that are effectively immune to ork shooting and are only worried about a single model in CC, let alone things like wraithknights who don't even care about PK nobs. We also get to the issue of the other CC armies like barkbark star where you don't have any real hope of doing any sort of meaningful damage while they will evaporate anything they touch. You've also got things like Necron wraiths who have the mobility to engage you wherever they like while you again are going to struggle to cause any meaningful damage to them.
No, boyz are not great and Orks aren't fine in a competative environment. I can't believe it took as long as it did for someone to point out the obvious, almost the entire first page, only to be met with fingers in ears denial of what should be bleedingly obvious. Yes, some very, very skilled players had reasonable success with certain builds, but I would in fact wager that they can make almost anything work. There was one thread here on Dakka about an Ork general that placed... 9th or 10th and NOVA or Adepticon or something - That was a great read and well played and I salute him for that effort, but I'd also wager that 9 out of 10 players couldn't make orks work at the higher levels of competition sufficiently to place in the top half of the field and to me, that's the signal of a low tier codex.
Are you actually saying Ork Boyz have actually beaten Imperial Knights in close combat... I don't even know what to say to this at all. Power to the S4 Orks on charge with klawnob?
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Also considering the fact that the latest ITC lists have come out and Ork's aren't anywhere near placed highly to the top.. yeah.
Consider that the ITC board is filled with Eldar, Necron, Dark Angel bikers, Daemons, etc. We are saying Orks aren't that bad, not Orks are going to easily win every ITC event.
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.
Drasius wrote: CSM players took cultists because they were the cheapest thing you could take that filled your mandatory slots. Now that we have legion rules, everyone takes a warband and the only cultists you see are those in alpha legion & lost and the damned wheree they get special rules.
As for if CSM got Ork statline troops, well, we did - Tzaangors. They even get their own formation that lets them run and charge and still nobody takes them because they're trash. Why wouldn't we take advantage of it? Because there's nothing to take advantage of. T4 is almost irrelevant, Str3 IS irrelevant, moving 6" a turn is irrelevant, a 6+ "save" is not only irrelevant but absolutely laughable. CSM players are already pushing a heavy rock up a sharp incline, there's no need to make the incline sharper nor the rock heavier by taking units that are worse than the ones we already have. Even if you spend the 4ppm to give them 'Eavy armour, now they're what, 10 ppm? Compare that to the 13ppm of a world eater marine and they're just so much better than a boy that it's not funny. The only thing CSM want out of the Ork dex are Trucks, maaaaaaybe battle wagons.
And trukks are part of the deal, boyz can be so good because they have access to cheap, fast dedicated transport. Something Tzaangors don't have (also mark of Tz makes them pretty trash and bumps up their cost)
Orks are decent in a casual setting and will crumble in most competative settings outside of the occassional meta busting lists and/or extreme generalship. Orks have a lower ceiling than other lists because where they used to be able to have more targets than you had bullets, the focus on high RoF, mid Str, relatively poor AP guns means that orks are in a sad state. The mass availability of ignores cover and the fact that it's almost mandatory is one of the other things that will firmly keep orks out of the top half of the tier list as the fact that outside of MAN's and a MA warboss they have basically nothing that won't get absolutely shredded by wyverns, thunderfire cannons, tau HYMP's, MP's and SMS as well as almost anything with the Imperium of Man faction as they can throw a div or geomancy psycher into almost any squad they feel like and hand out ignores cover.
Then you've got the fact that orks struggle to deal with mech in the era of the gladius and you're already in a world of pain, then you have Imperial Knights that are effectively immune to ork shooting and are only worried about a single model in CC, let alone things like wraithknights who don't even care about PK nobs. We also get to the issue of the other CC armies like barkbark star where you don't have any real hope of doing any sort of meaningful damage while they will evaporate anything they touch. You've also got things like Necron wraiths who have the mobility to engage you wherever they like while you again are going to struggle to cause any meaningful damage to them.
So you say Orks don't beat top tier power list? Your right then, Orks are the worst army ever.
No, boyz are not great and Orks aren't fine in a competative environment. I can't believe it took as long as it did for someone to point out the obvious, almost the entire first page, only to be met with fingers in ears denial of what should be bleedingly obvious. Yes, some very, very skilled players had reasonable success with certain builds, but I would in fact wager that they can make almost anything work. There was one thread here on Dakka about an Ork general that placed... 9th or 10th and NOVA or Adepticon or something - That was a great read and well played and I salute him for that effort, but I'd also wager that 9 out of 10 players couldn't make orks work at the higher levels of competition sufficiently to place in the top half of the field and to me, that's the signal of a low tier codex.
Once again, no one has made the argument Orks are top tier, the name of the thread is "Orks aren't that bad" not "Orks are Eldar level". No one expects Orks to win ITC but they can and do place in the upper mid region with the occasional player getting into top tier region.
Orks aren't a bad army and can dominate bottom tier and mid tier armies, this isn't just us sticking fingers in our ears this is from experience: I have witnessed with my own eyes Orks go to town on lists which fhe meta calls 'top tier'. Screaming and shouting that you can't make Orks work and pointing ITC and going "look they aren't in the top 10" won't change the fact that a good Ork play will do much better than bottom tier armies which they are supposed to be one of.
The nob would hit on 3s glance on 4s has 4a and is 35 points.
Yes, a powerklaw can damage av13. How is this shocking. It's ap 2 as well. It's mathematically possible for the nob to explode the ik for +d3 hp.
Bully MANz have 20 pk attacks on the charge and can also take killsaws for 10 points, which are powerklaws with +1 a and armourbane which really hurt ik.
Cc is the best way for orks to take down a knight.
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.
Trukks. Always take into account trukks. I have watched someone use 5 trukks to back two IK into a corner then charge them with 50 boyz with nobz. The boyz take the brunt of the attack whilst the nobz' combined attacks of 25 S9 ap2 are enough to take down a knight easily. (In the example I gave only one trukk was taken down due to their 4++ and ramshackle) Anyone who thinks klawbobz won't tear an IK open clearly haven't played a compitent Ork player before.
Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.
Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.
Trukks. Always take into account trukks. I have watched someone use 5 trukks to back two IK into a corner then charge them with 50 boyz with nobz. The boyz take the brunt of the attack whilst the nobz' combined attacks of 25 S9 ap2 are enough to take down a knight easily. (In the example I gave only one trukk was taken down due to their 4++ and ramshackle) Anyone who thinks klawbobz won't tear an IK open clearly haven't played a compitent Ork player before.
Then I clearly haven't, Trukks tend to fall even with.. wait 4++? I'm guessing we are talking about the Super KFF from Ghazghulls book? I don't think I tend to see people running much from that one at all. I honestly wish the random gun was cheaper, I love that thing.
But yeah it tends to be that Trukks tend to die off, and the boyz have to rely on cover to get to places, and tend to be shot down.
Of course a 4++ wouldn't help much against the IK's with the Avenger Gatling Gun, but then you may get into reach since there's less IK's to gun down the trukks.
I did forget the Nobz had A3, but I've never seen much actually reach melee without some major luck.
Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.
koooaei wrote: Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.
They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.
koooaei wrote: Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.
They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.
That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.
From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.
A PK nob has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge. WS4 means half hit, glancing on 5's (4's on the charge), penning on 6's (5's on the charge) with 1/6th of each pen doing an extra d3 damage. That's 0.5833 HP normally or 1.222 HP on the charge.
A knight has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge plus an impact hit, then d3 stomps at I1 that are str6 ap4 (ie, killing on 2's). If you're taking MSU orks, you're getting your sh*t pushed in. Even worse if the knight has gone through terrain or has a gauntlet since then he can stomp first to remove boys and then attack with the D-weapon to remove the nob as well.
The only thing that a knight is really afraid of are MAN's missiles (now that tank bustas are 1 bomb per unit) since they have (or at least should have) at least 1 pair of kill saws per 3 MAN's which are 5 attacks on the charge resulting in 3.055 HP or 2.148 HP on a round where he didn't charge. On average, the knight will drop both the claw nobs, but the kill saw nob will do some serious hurt before he goes down in round 2.
Technically a warboss with klaw will also cause a knight issues since he's str10, but that's not usually what the boss is doing.
Knights are a serious problem for orks, plus, on top of all of this, knights cause fear and orks are one of the very few races that actually give a crap about fear (unless you're running Ghazzy) and that tanks your damage output to almost nothing. Considering pretty much all orks are ld 7 or 8, this is quite the issue.
All this is just CC too and makes no mention of the various ranged weapons a knight is capable of wielding.
Damn, wasn't quite quick enough with my edit. I did mention fear though, but it's a bit too swingy to account for accurately in the numbers.
Edit: It's easy to account for, but it's so all or nothing that the average isn't that accurate of a representation.
PK nob does .502 HP without the charge on average (.583/.389 is the no fear/fear split), 1.052 on the charge (1.222/0.815 is the no fear/fear split)
Killsaw MAN does 1.802 HP without the charge on average (2.092/1.395 is the fearless/fear split), 2.63 on the charge (3.055/2.037 is the fearless/fear split)
koooaei wrote: Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.
They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.
That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.
From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.
Then those gitz will be footslogging and won't do anything for a solid 2-3 turns, at least. Enough time for the enemy to pick up them.
koooaei wrote: Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.
They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.
That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.
From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.
Then those gitz will be footslogging and won't do anything for a solid 2-3 turns, at least. Enough time for the enemy to pick up them.
It's not always that easy to deal enough damage in time. If you're interested, here's my experience with meganobz in trukks at a recent tourney. They faced 2 ravenwings, drop cent spam, renegades with a baneblade and eldar with scatlasers, WK and shooty Imp knight.
In larger games i run spare trukks of naked boyz, min tankbustas and just a regular obsec one from boyz to pick them up when the trukk is down and to add to msu scoring, screeting and tankshocking.
This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.
warhead01 wrote: This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.
I've seen a knight lose all 6hp to PK nobz in cc. Glorious.
warhead01 wrote: This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.
yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.
warhead01 wrote: This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.
yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.
They are such nasty things! I've lost a shadowsword on full hull points to a charge of tank bustas, my opponant rolled so lucky with the explodes! results.
Drasius wrote: A PK nob has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge. WS4 means half hit, glancing on 5's (4's on the charge), penning on 6's (5's on the charge) with 1/6th of each pen doing an extra d3 damage. That's 0.5833 HP normally or 1.222 HP on the charge.
A knight has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge plus an impact hit, then d3 stomps at I1 that are str6 ap4 (ie, killing on 2's). If you're taking MSU orks, you're getting your sh*t pushed in. Even worse if the knight has gone through terrain or has a gauntlet since then he can stomp first to remove boys and then attack with the D-weapon to remove the nob as well.
The only thing that a knight is really afraid of are MAN's missiles (now that tank bustas are 1 bomb per unit) since they have (or at least should have) at least 1 pair of kill saws per 3 MAN's which are 5 attacks on the charge resulting in 3.055 HP or 2.148 HP on a round where he didn't charge. On average, the knight will drop both the claw nobs, but the kill saw nob will do some serious hurt before he goes down in round 2.
Technically a warboss with klaw will also cause a knight issues since he's str10, but that's not usually what the boss is doing.
Knights are a serious problem for orks, plus, on top of all of this, knights cause fear and orks are one of the very few races that actually give a crap about fear (unless you're running Ghazzy) and that tanks your damage output to almost nothing. Considering pretty much all orks are ld 7 or 8, this is quite the issue.
All this is just CC too and makes no mention of the various ranged weapons a knight is capable of wielding.
Edit: Forgot furious charge, numbers fixed now
Bullyboy Manz have +1 ws in addition to s9. 2+ save keeps them alive vs knight ap 4, killsaws for +1 a and armourbane. You could get 9 killsaw mans for the cost of a knight and they would certainly wreck it many times over. They're also fearless. Every competitive ork list takes bullyboyz, which is 15 Manx minimum. (3x5) No, Knights are not really a problem for orks. In contrast there's nothing worth shooting for the knight. A Gatling cannon shooting up. 100 point squad of orks in a trukk? A 54 point warbike unit? A competitive ork list, if it has trukks, will have at least 8 of the suckers, the manz armour save will keep them alive in the trukk til even if it explodes. And there's enough to share. Of course I'm gonna dump the 65 point busta squad so the mans can grab their trukk.
Also, zhad can move 36" per turn and is s10 ap 2 at i4 and is perfectly capable of finishing off a knight weakened by rokkits and lootas by himself before it can stomp. He's a third of the cost of the knight.
E:And ya, the warlord would be going after the knight. In itc if you roll with a knight your opponent gets +1 to seize and he gets to roll on the escalation warlord traits which gives him all sorts of insane bonuses vs the Titan.
warhead01 wrote: This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.
yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.
They are such nasty things! I've lost a shadowsword on full hull points to a charge of tank bustas, my opponant rolled so lucky with the explodes! results.
He can't get more than one with meltabombs after the faq. Though, he could run a nob with a bit cheaper pk that also gets tankhunting.
345 pts of min tankbustas with bomb squigs and trukks means 18 s8 shots, 9 of them hitting on 2s, 15 with tankhunter. An average of 9-10 hits. Combined with an assault with a unit that has one pk at least or shooting from lootas and the knight is dead. Sure it can cause damage in its shooting phase but honestly there are a lot of other things that we, orks, suffer extremely more than a single imperial knight. A list with 4 is a nightmare to deal with, but honestly everyone gets bored facing a list of full IK, who's gonna play against those lists?
I just put a few KMK's at it. Maybe a 5 strong loota squad.
It just seems really weird to me the direction these threads go.
My friend until last year some time played chaos Space marines for like 15 years. He was using full units of cultists in his armies. depending on the size of the game up to 4 full units.
But hey, cultist suck.
I use Ork Boys as the bulk of my list I own 8 full mobs of slugga boys. and maybe that many shoota boys...( Maybe really only 150 shoota boys.)
No other units in my armies really serve me as well. I don't care for trukks unless we're playing a large point game maybe 5K or more then they can put in some actual work.
I build my lists either to use the Warbosses WAAAGH, rolling for the one to gain fearless and WAAAGH every turn or use Da finking Kap for two warlord traits. I had plenty of good games with out bringing my Warboss. He's not really that important. (Just don't tell him I said that...)
I really like the green tide but have been trying to push armies that resemble my old lists from 2 or 3 editions ago.
But the OP is right, from what I have found Orks do well when you use the games rules. there's a lot in there. A multi assault where the nob contacts a transport and the boys hit the unit. every pin is two wounds. 3 or 4 hit's maybe 2 pins and a glance. (5 wounds) Heck, that's a situation my Green tide would love to be in. half of the enemy will try to flee after we beat up their transports. Now, just box um in and keep them close to their own board edge... ( That would be one for the books!)
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
I don't know the new CSM but till one year ago they really sucked, also AM and tyranids (regardless of their lists) are not better than DE, and i would say also BA and sisters. With the supplement DE are improved a lot, still a very difficult army to play efficiently but not a bottom tier. Orks are very similar to DE for many features: they're MSU centered, extremely fast, fragile, full of vehicles and bikes, good saturation but nothing really devastating in the shooting phase, no psychic phase, and also assalut focused as reavers, talos and grotesques are the best DE units and orks perform well due to their pks spam.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
typically 10-12 trukks can be easily fielded in 1850 points games, but if you don't take mek gunz or bikers 15 trukks can be fielded in 1850-2000 points games. Probably he uses to play at 2500 format but if you go trukk spam you can easily deploy a huge amount of vehicles without spending a lot of points.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.
Sorry, by cost I ment money value.
trukks can be scratch built quite easily, i made 8 of them (actually three are BWs but i use them as trukks if i need to) with just the equivalent of 20 US dollars in plasticard and toy wheels.
Who can say...
I have 15 trukks I remember buying 2 new and maybe 3 from Ebay the rest I got in trade from a friend for an IG army. I got all his ork army. I'm still looking for motivation to paint them.
slip wrote: Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.
I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.
slip wrote: Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.
I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.
They can be better (reavers are certainly not), but that doesn't make orks bikes not good.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.
Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.
Sorry, by cost I ment money value.
Depends if you are lucky, when I was younger I mamaged to pay £20 for a job lot of 20 boys, 6 nobz, 6 ork bikers, a buggy, a mek on a bike, a trukk, 10 guardsman, a leman russ and a lot of other bits. Sure, some of it was older models, some were broken and some were missing bits but for £20 it was a steal.
I suggest snooping around on ebay and car boots where you get parents selling off their childrens old models that they found when clearing out for cheap. I've saved a lot of money from this.
slip wrote: Warbikers are as good as any bike in the game.
I am going to HEAVILY contest that statement... right off the top of my head, Ravenwing Black Knights, Reaver Jetbikes, Scatter Laser Windriders, T6 Death Guard CSM Bikers, and Screamers of Tzeentch (unit type: jetbike) are all absolutely better than warbikers.
In terms of where Orks actually stand among the "have-not" armies, the OP is correct in that they can be OK, they have a few semi-competitive army builds, and there's more space between the skill floor and skill ceiling than most armies.
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle and Harlequins are the bottom tier armies who sit in that space where in the hands of an unskilled player or built wrong they get absolutely clobbered by absolutely everything, but which have enough of a skill ceiling that they can *almost* scratch some competitive builds. One could argue that that puts them at the "top of the bottom" so to speak.
The true bottom of the bottom are the armies that are fundamentally flawed AND inflexible. Guard, Blood Angels, Tyranids minus their one good model. A guard army has no tricks - just firepower, and in any setting where that firepower is inadequate to stop a threat before it gets to them, they're dead. And now there's just so many super-deathstars, beefy monstrous creatures, and super fast melee threats like khornedogs and ravenwing that most of the time, guard just crumples turn 2 after not doing nearly enough damage turn 1. The game becomes a frustrating exercise of "list checking" and then realizing they've included this or that element that will just enable them to win by default.
Heres the thing, though: this doesn't mean ork, SoB and DE players have no cause to complain. Because even if they AREN'T the worst armies in the game, they are the most ignored armies in the game (along with others, guys.) There's a whole slew of armies that, since the end of 6th, have basically gotten nothing while the favored factions get enough content for 3 or 4 army updates. To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.
That's what people are complaining about. Not being the worst army in the game.
the_scotsman wrote: To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.
To be fair CSM have had a reason to complain for the last 10 years and now that we have traitor legions most are content.
But you are right, Orks are needing some love from GW.
morgoth wrote: Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...
One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.
I don't know the new CSM but till one year ago they really sucked, also AM and tyranids (regardless of their lists) are not better than DE, and i would say also BA and sisters. With the supplement DE are improved a lot, still a very difficult army to play efficiently but not a bottom tier. Orks are very similar to DE for many features: they're MSU centered, extremely fast, fragile, full of vehicles and bikes, good saturation but nothing really devastating in the shooting phase, no psychic phase, and also assalut focused as reavers, talos and grotesques are the best DE units and orks perform well due to their pks spam.
I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.
I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.
That goes for the rest as well.
Really? DE have a lot of expendable mobile units and chaos not great amount of firepower, also some formations like corpsethief claw and the grotesquerie are really good in close combat. CSM without daemons allied were imho the worst army in 40k with tyranids and BA since some years, now they received new stuff so i can't say that anymore but seriously CSM never passed a single match in tournaments. Maybe a tailored list can be hard counter for DE but if DE and CSM fight each other with TAC lists almost every time i've seen those elves winners of the match. As a DE player i considered chaos probably the best possible opponent we can fight in tournaments. I haven't played against the updated CSM so i can't say now, but everyone tells they improved a lot.
Orks suffer from the same problem as Nidz: 1 or 2 very strong lists, but that's it.
Yes, Orks can be a very tough army to fight, we just had a guy show up at our LGS tournament with an all biker list who did very wel. Problem is, currently they don't have any great formations and a lot of their units are over-costed, plus the 7th edition book changed/removed a lot of good options for the Orks.
I respectfully disagree.
A proper CSM list from before TL will utterly destroy anything DE can field.
That goes for the rest as well.
Really? DE have a lot of expendable mobile units and chaos not great amount of firepower, also some formations like corpsethief claw and the grotesquerie are really good in close combat. CSM without daemons allied were imho the worst army in 40k with tyranids and BA since some years, now they received new stuff so i can't say that anymore but seriously CSM never passed a single match in tournaments. Maybe a tailored list can be hard counter for DE but if DE and CSM fight each other with TAC lists almost every time i've seen those elves winners of the match. As a DE player i considered chaos probably the best possible opponent we can fight in tournaments. I haven't played against the updated CSM so i can't say now, but everyone tells they improved a lot.
One question: were you fighting standalone CSM, i.e. no Forgeworld or Daemon allies? If you were, then yeah, DE and CSM are a fairly even match. Otherwise, CSM would totally destroy DE. The Forgeworld options they can take are basically the same as SM, so things like Sicaran tanks and Fire Raptor gunships will murder your forces.
Hard to call sorcs, lords, spawns, bikers, oblis and drakes weak. That's right around the variety of good stuff from the eldar book that you see on the tables. Seers, scatbikes, warp spiders, knights, wraithguards, seer council.
Ofc there's a certain difference between CSM good and Eldar good but we're talking about variety now.
morgoth wrote: Come on... the regular CSM nurgle spawn, maulerfiend + sorcs spam vs anything DE ?
But this is not about DE vs CSM, It's just that overall CSM have some weakish but solid options, whereas DE is only glass cannon without much cannon.
Here's the thing, though: CSM competitive builds heavily rely on Toughness to make themselves stronger than their opponent. The Heldrake is by far their best answer to DE, but Lances are pretty solid against Maulerfiends, who really don't like getting shot by low-AP anti tank weaponry, and Poison is very good against spawn/nurgle bikers since it don't care that you're T6.
mrhappyface wrote: [ Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....
lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa. Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there. They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter. All that matters is that the unit as a whole can be used to just be there ,without being that much of a thread to any other unit in the game and are priced / valued this way. You could pile on all sorts of useless gear and rules on them in an other codex and GW would still roughly price that unit at the same point cost per unit.
Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job. Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist. You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.
mrhappyface wrote: [
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....
lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.
Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.
Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.
I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.
E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.
"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.
Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.
I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.
E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.
"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.
Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.
That's a pretty goofy statement, Slip. Tomb Blades are absolutely, ABSOLUTELY lethal against Orks, because of what Slayer wrote. Tomb Blades being T5, 3+ save, RP, with an AP 4 Ignores Cover and IIRC S5 Blast means they will murder warbikers/boyz/basically anything not with a 3+ save.
Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.
Sure ork boyz can kill that stuff, no ork player would ever dispute that. Its just that you need too much points of ork boyz to get the job done especially once you start comparing them with other units that have the same role.
I've been playing for a couple of years now against a variety of opponents. To be honest, I still feel I'm best with Orks and that they are underrated as a faction.
I am glad you feel that way, I love my ork army. Though I feel they are terrible under powered and well rated considering how little they have and how little options you really have.
IMHO, despite what the fluff would have you believe, Orks are actually an army that reward you for being cunning, knowing the rules and using actual tactics. You don't get point-and-click uber units, and you're still better off using a CAD (or double CAD if points allow), but I maintain that they're a good army if you know what you're doing. You also have to avoid trying to playing the deathstar game - Ork characters work better as support for boyz.
Every army benefits from this, Orks benefit from this the same as everyone else. The difference is that Ork armies are unforgivable. If you make tactical mistakes you will lose. As far as Deathstars..your basically right, with the noted exception of Zhadsnark with DLS Biker Boss and Painboy on bike.
Here's what I miss about my Orks when I play using one of my other factions:
* Versatility. The combination of boyz and powerful characters helps them to deal with almost any threat on the tapletop. Want to kill horde infantry? Your boyz will gun them down and stomp them flat. Elite infantry, vehicles or monstrous creatures? Drown them in choppa attacks and finish them off with power klaws. Gargantuans and super-heavies? Make them waste their attacks killing boyz and then clobber them with power klaws. No need to worry about deep striking troops failing their reserve rolls or scattering away from their intended targets. Some other armies have access to lethal close combat troops, but IMO the only ones who can really match Orks for versatility are wulfen and *maybe* death company.
Yes and no, Ork boyz are versatile....ish. They really only have two functions, run forward and get into choppy range, or run forward and get into shooty range. Both have the same results, dead in droves.
Why don't orks worry about deep strikers failing reserve rolls or bad scattering?
SWs have Wulfen and TWC's which are way better then Orkz.
* Fire support. Yes, I am serious. In the games I've played, my flash gitz and bikers have been absolute stars. There is nothing like the look on a Tau player's face when he realises that greenskins have blasted his riptides off the table. I don't use lootas, but I know other players fear them.
The fact that you use Flash Gitz is surprising considering how terrible they are. First off, Flash Gitz require a transport or they die in droves. Secondy, while in that transport they are a sitting target because ork vehicles tend to explode....easily. Lastly, Flash Gitz suck, if you move you're losing your Git Findas and relying on 1 APD6 shot a turn actually hitting to do damage. And since they have a 24in range your going to be moving a lot. Warbikers I agree with. Without a doubt Warbikers are one of the top 1-3 units in the Ork codex.
* Battlewagons. Unequivocally the most points-efficient transport in the game. For 125 points you can get your boyz into combat or give your shooty units a great gunboat. You can end up spamming a lot of AV14 and the sight of so many wagons full of bloodthirsty Orks coming at them can be quite intimidating for your opponent. Opponents also tend to ignore them once the guys inside have disembarked, at which point you can ram vehicles (an automatic strength 9 hit is not bad at all), tank shock things off of objectives or grab cheeky line breakers.
Horribly False. Battlewagons are 110pts NAKED. With a ram and two weapons they are 125pts. While they are in fact AV 14/12/10, their fronts are tiny compared to their sides, in other words easy side targets. Also since they are OT they have +1 to explode. So that 125pts gives you an expensive death trap with no real firepower whose only purpose is to drop units off or be a mobile bunker. If they were still 90pts and Deff Rollas were still usable this would be true, but since that changed they are mediocre at best.
* Trukks. Yes, they're only armour 10. They're also fast, very cheap, easy to hide for the first turn and can gain obsec. Like wagons, they become low-priority targets once their passengers have left.
True. But the only way to use them to any kind of effect is to spam the hell out of them. a Unit of 3 Scatter Bikes have 12 Shots, 6 hits and 1/3rd chance to Pen 1/6 chance to glance. Put another way, 3 Scat bikes kill a Trukk Each turn AND have a 1/3rd chance to explode it killing the passengers inside. And as we all know, a dismounted unit of Trukk boyz caught in the open is an easy target. Short version: They are easily countered and removed from play without having much effect.
* Bikers. They're shooty, choppy and very hard to kill, especially if you stick a painboy in there.
They are very shooty, they aren't very choppy. 2 Boyz and a Nob W/PK cost on bike Cost 89pts have 9 TL S5 shots, nice. They have on the charge 8 S4 Attacks and 4 S9 AP2 attacks. If they lose a single biker btw they suffer a LD test and if they fail they are screwed. Worse, if they are charged themselves they are at 6 S3 attacks and 3 S8 AP2 attacks. I generally try to only charge with these guys when a unit is most likely to be killed by them in the 1st assault phase.
* The Megaboss with da lukky stikk. Absolutely devastating for the points he costs. He is almost unkillable by non-ap2 weapons, which saves him and the boyz and leads frustrated opponents to invest ridiculous amounts of fire into trying to kill him. Then you have all of those re-rollable S10 ap2 attacks. His only weakness is in challenges against uber-characters, which, to be honest, is fair enough for his low points cost and easily remedied by sacrificing a lesser character (e.g. a mek).
Very True, the MA Boss w/DLS Is a highlight, but the only way to use him is to put him in a unit of Boyz, otherwise his unit will get focus fired with AP2 and die in droves. I personally prefer giving a Warboss on Bike DLS since he can reroll Jink saves which functions as a Pseudo Invul from shooting attacks.
* Underestimation. Because they don't have any real cheese units, opponents often underestimate them until my boyz are smashing up their expensive units or my gitz are gunning them down!
This is probably the biggest benefit of the Ork Codex. NOBODY EXPECTS THE ORKISH INQUISITION!
What do you guys think?
I am Glad you asked. Are you ready?
Almost everything in the entire Codex is overpriced. We are the only faction that suffers from terrible faction special rules that actively work against us. As you pointed out we have no cheese units, we also have no top tier units either. So lets do a bit of a review of some of these units.
HQ's: Warboss is fine but expensive. Useless without his standard issue (25pt upgrade) Power Klaw. Has no invul save, has no access to one either.
Big Mek: Hot trash, Think Expensive Nob with access to random crap. KFF is ok but expensive, SAG is hilarious but useless most of the time. His real purpose is as a cheap HQ.
Painboy: Expensive Nob that gives 5+ FNP and has a 4+ poisoned weapon. Cant upgrade his armor without giving him a 25pt Bike.
Nobz: 18pts per model....They cost as much as a Warbiker without any of the benefits. They cost as much as 3 Boyz without any added bonuses beyond +1 attack, 1+ Strength and +1 wounds. In other words not cost effective.
Nob Bikerz: HOLY CHRIST WHY! 135pts for 3 models without any weapon upgrades. Translation 45pts a model. Give them a Powerklaw? and now your up to 160pts that are only marginally better then 2 Warbikers with a Nob/PK. (For 1 more point you could field 6 Warbikers with a Nob/PK more then twice the Fire power)
Boyz: Leadership/Durability issues. Mob rule really feths with them.
Grotz: objective holders...thats it. Don't expect them to do anything
BurnaBoyz: Expensive, no armor, no means of doing anything unless you buy a Trukk or BW for them.
TankBustas: Same as Burna Boyz but at least they get Tank hunter....even if they do die to a stiff breeze.
Flash Gitz: Already covered them but to reiterate; Too expensive, no armor, no LD, Guns are situational at best and garbage at worst. If they move they throw away their one advantage +1BS (Git Findaz)
MegaNobz: sadly one of our better units, basically Terminators with 2 Wounds, no invul and no weapon options beyond KillSaws or possibly KombiSkorchas that have a use.
Warbikers: They are one of our best units. only downside I see to them is that they are still just boyz.
Storm Boyz: Boyz with Jump Packs thats it. they are relatively well priced. I think they need to be 1-2pts cheaper though. if you suffer difficult terrain your going to lose the model because 6+ save. Also if you use their ability your going to be losing 1/6th of your unit each time.
Warbuggies: They aren't terrible they just lack Dakka. Good way to spam AV10 though.
Killa Kanz: EXPENSIVE, No use in CC anymore, No dakka worth mentioning beyond the Grotzooka which is incredibly short range on a Walker Platform..Ohh and the only vehicle i know of that suffers leadership problems.
Deff Dreadz: EXPENSIVE, No use in the shooting phase, barely able to hold its own in CC nowadays.
Lootas: Random shots, not enough dakka, No access to anything really. Give them Git Findaz would make them significantly better. Also they tend to die to a stiff breeze as well.
Mork/Gorkanought: EXPENSIVE, complete lack of Dakka for that many points. Slow as molasses (Giant walker without SHW rules) When you finally get it into CC (Which is a feat in itself) you only get a handful of attacks at WS4. Granted they will feth up whomever they hit.
Stompa: EXPENSIVE, Its Supa Gattler Jams by the 2nd shooting phase. It has no Invul and most importantly did i mention ITS FETHING EXPENSIVE. 770pts.
Mek Gunz: Lobbas, KMKs are the only weapons worth taking, no leadership.
We also suffer from having no formation bonuses that are worth much.
Leadership issues across the board
Mob rule being useless
No Ignores cover ranged weapons
No Long range Anti-Tank weapons that can do much to AV12+
We have no Invul Saves
I could keep going on but i'll leave it here
TLDR: Orks are not a mid tier army except when using our competitive units against people who don't bring competitive units.
One question: were you fighting standalone CSM, i.e. no Forgeworld or Daemon allies? If you were, then yeah, DE and CSM are a fairly even match. Otherwise, CSM would totally destroy DE. The Forgeworld options they can take are basically the same as SM, so things like Sicaran tanks and Fire Raptor gunships will murder your forces.
Yes, of course i meant CSM without allies, otherwise also DE with farseer, scatterbikes and a wraithknight allied can be very good. Also true about forgeworld, here in Italy is mostly not allowed. That's also fits the thread as orks have a bad reputation here because other than forgeworld are mostly not allowed fortifications, IA8 and multiple detachments. That means no zhadsnark, no vsg, no gun wagons, no discount stompas, no double CAD.
Here's the thing, though: CSM competitive builds heavily rely on Toughness to make themselves stronger than their opponent. The Heldrake is by far their best answer to DE, but Lances are pretty solid against Maulerfiends, who really don't like getting shot by low-AP anti tank weaponry, and Poison is very good against spawn/nurgle bikers since it don't care that you're T6.
Right, the helldrake is the most scary thing a CSM player can bring against dark eldars as it can evaporate a full unit in a single turn and we don't have effective anti-air as our flyers are not very good and we have no skyfire other than razorwings or the bomber. Two of them would be an absolute hell to play against.
HQ's: Warboss is fine but expensive. Useless without his standard issue (25pt upgrade) Power Klaw. Has no invul save, has no access to one either.
I basically agree with all your points with the exception of this one, a warboss in megarmor with da lucky stikk costs 125 points, 135 on a warbike. That doesn't seem that expensive to me as he doesn't ride alone but with boyz or bikes so is not really vulnerable. Against something that has ap2 and initiative you can accept or refuse that challange with a nob, mek or a painboy. The warboss becomes vulnerable when his entire unit is wiped out, before that is free to strike is 4/5 s10 ap2 re-rollable attacks.
SWs have Wulfen and TWC's which are way better then Orkz.
You can't compare them to boyz, they're elites or fast attacks, compare blood claws or grey hunters with ork boyz. I play both armies and i think orks troops are better than SW ones. Blood claws and grey hunters are decent only because they can have two great transports, drop pods or a stormwolf.
Blackie wrote: I basically agree with all your points with the exception of this one, a warboss in megarmor with da lucky stikk costs 125 points, 135 on a warbike. That doesn't seem that expensive to me as he doesn't ride alone but with boyz or bikes so is not really vulnerable. Against something that has ap2 and initiative you can accept or refuse that challange with a nob, mek or a painboy. The warboss becomes vulnerable when his entire unit is wiped out, before that is free to strike is 4/5 s10 ap2 re-rollable attacks.
You can't compare them to boyz, they're elites or fast attacks, compare blood claws or grey hunters with ork boyz. I play both armies and i think orks troops are better than SW ones. Blood claws and grey hunters are decent only because they can have two great transports, drop pods or a stormwolf.
A warboss isn't vulnerable I never said that. But if you put him with Meganobz he is vulnerable to AP2 weapons because even if you Look out sir you just lost a 40pt Meganob (assuming S8+)
In a warbiker squad hes safer because of Jink but Ignores cover with Ap4 can do some damage.
We really need better armor/Invuls
As far as the Wulfen/TWC thing, I wasn't comparing them to boyz. I was comparing them to our ENTIRE CODEX. They eat pretty much everything we have, the only way to fight them with orks is to shoot them to death which isn't easy
mrhappyface wrote: [
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....
lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.
Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.
Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.
Hmmm seeing as you are referring to biker unit before Chaos Lord and DP, I assume you mean Nurgle Bikers correct?
mrhappyface wrote: [
Let's compare these Boyz to a similar troop unit: Cultists.....
lol you are a madman if you are using CSMcultists like an ork player should use boyz or visa versa.
Cultists are similar to grots. They are the kind of unit nobody really cares about and only have one purpose in the game -> standing in the way / just being there.
They are disposable blockers, their stats do not really matter al that much and are priced / valued this way.
Now ork boyz are something else they are the supposed to be the core of the ork army, and actually have to be good at their job.
Ork boyz are similar to Genesteler hybrid equivalents not CSM cultist.
You and others are free to make a fool out of yourself by claiming that orks boyz are better in certain scenario's but we all know that no one is taking ork boyz unless they really have to as a power fist carrying device while the same amount of points spend on genesestealer hybrids are stuff of nightmares for many players.
Ork boyz body slamming almost anything that they get into cc with must just be my imagination then. I am sure every IK, tank, biker unit, chaos lord, daemon prince, etc. I have seen fall to boys didn't actually happen.
Hmmm seeing as you are referring to biker unit before Chaos Lord and DP, I assume you mean Nurgle Bikers correct?
Well putting the warboss with meganobz is always a bad choice and wulfen are among the most powerful units in 40k, probably the best close combat unit in the entire game. Also SW only have those wulfen, TWC, rune priests, drop pods and maybe the stormwolf that are really good. SW are better than orks but far from the best armies, they have some amazing melee units but no decent fire power and not many models on the board. I agree that the lack of invulns in close combat is among the orks issues.
E: Ah forget it. Sorry, got my info wrong. Tomb blades rock, but you are capped at how many you can take in a decurion wereas orks can take bikers as troops if they want.
Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.
slip wrote: That's one aspect of one unit. My list is zhad, lvl 2 weirdboy, 6x bikers, 6x bustas in trukk, 3x bully MANz. I can scout or outflank zhad and 3x bikers. Even if you maxed tomblades and spent all game blastin bikes you probably wouldn't get them all and there's way bigger problems. Not that I'm trashing necrons, they're the ork hard counter, but I'm more terrified of pylons, wraiths, and what character is gonna eat your overlords challenge.
Tomb Blades are AP4 and Ignores Cover. You said Tomb Blades were scared of Bikers because of that aspect.
I don't actually think you've played against Necrons.
Quote it. I'm pretty sure I was referring to necrons in general.
I've played enough to know that that my entire army can cover the range of your weapons in a turn and I'm fast enough and numerous enough to pick who fights where, to the point that one round of shooting from generally 1-3 units isn't gonna make the difference.
E: like are you running a decurion or not? How's the rest of that gauss weaponry doing against the bikers? Yes, having jink against necrons is useful. Especially when playing with trukks that need to be screened. Their value is undeniable.
"Vs Necrons Bikers shine with their 3+ jink and Zhad's 2+ jink"
This can be interpreted in a few ways.
1. You think they shine vs Tomb Blades
2. You've never seen Tomb Blades
3. You've never been charged by anything, which is silly.
Also I'm perfectly content with someone rushing after me because that just means I can potentially charge against you myself. I don't care about your AWESOME 3+ jink save. I can shoot what I can and charge you as well. I run minimum 13 Tomb Blades in my lists.
So you couldn't actually find the quote of me referring tomb blades there eh? Seems kinda like your manufacturing this whole thing. Or it can be interpreted the following ways:
1. You see tomb blades where there is none
2. You think the entire necron army is tomb blades
3. You can't count point values
Are bikers useful against anyone if flamethrowers exists in the game? Did you answer any of my statements?
You want to compare tomb blades to warbikers squarely totally taking out the entire context I was using fine. 3 groups of three tomb blades with upgrades is the same cost as 27 warbikers. You use 13? I can take ~40 bikers or 30 and zhad and have a full legal list lol. I don't care about 26 ignore cover shots lol. You'll take out < a third of the 40, and then they'll wreck you in combat because zhad can move as fast as the tomb blades can move one time but he can all game, 36", and the other bikers move 24". If it's three units of tomb blades you're running, the most you could take out per turn is three units lol. I got at least 13. How long ya got til combat?
You're a take all comers list patting himself on the back for taking a missile launcher in case somebody runs a tank and figuring it'll be okay enough for 12. Sorry man, you just don't know anything about orks or MSU strategy.
What? Where the hell did you get those numbers? 9 tomb-blades cost198pts, which is roughly eleven warbikers. So if you cheat your oponent that many points i'ts obvious you'll do fine.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Blackie wrote: Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.
I am very confused as to why you are arguing that orks are competitive because they have the option of obsec bikespam, and how amazing their bikes are because zhardsnark is so good, but at the same time you are comparing them to other armies not allowing for Forgeworld options.
The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.
Blackie wrote: Well very few people play competitive orks lists so they're wrong considered by many players. About necrons and tomb blades, no one is going to field more than 6 jetbikes in every competitive necrons list, whiel you have see 20+ bikes, eventually some with FNP, in many competitive orks lists, all with obj sec.
I am very confused as to why you are arguing that orks are competitive because they have the option of obsec bikespam, and how amazing their bikes are because zhardsnark is so good, but at the same time you are comparing them to other armies not allowing for Forgeworld options.
The only reason orks can take an obsec bikespam list is because of Zsnark, who is Forgeworld.
Yes i say it in general, in my area forgeworld is typically not allowed, but if in italy i can't take zhadsnark that doesn't mean that in north america or other parts of the world biker troops are illegal. I'm not saying orks are competitive either, just that biker troops are among the most competitive units that orks can field. If forgeworld is allowed.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.
You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.
You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.
You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
Only that I've seen competitive lists with a dozen if not more tomb-blades.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.
You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.
You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.
Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?
I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...
Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?
I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...
Wait your accusing them of not playing 40k games when in the same post you say you don't have enough models to go to tournaments?
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
I'm listing upgrades, dear. A fully kitted tomb-blade is 22pts. Ork bikers are 18pts. And the tomb-blades come with FNP, better bs and armor. 3+ jink means crap when you ignore armor and cover.
Yes but no one is gonna field more than 6 tomb blades, ork bikers are troops so you'll always see 20+ in competitive lists.
Except there have been lists that use more than six. I know for a fact there was a list that had at least 20 of them. I'll have to find it.
You're also not helping your case when you clearly proved you didn't know anything about the Tomb Blades, and therefore proved you haven't played against Necrons. Your argument is, even though Tomb Blades are CLEARLY better, you won't see that many of them. That's patently false.
You've said that you saw ONCE a list full of tomb blades, not even in person... so basically you agree with me, you won't see many of them, we're talking about TAC lists not tailored lists. Also i didn't say that ork bikes are better but that tomb blades are not that scary as in a competitive orks list you see a lot of bikes while in a competitive necrons one you won't. They serve different roles, orks ones are troops. And those jetbikes are the priority target for many orks lists that want to achieve first blood as they're probably the less resilient unit on the board. If i play with necrons there would be many things that concern me, tomb blades are not among them.
Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?
I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...
The point that you are confident to tie them means that you never played against competitive orks lists based on bikers troops. We're talking about MSU of bikes, with 3 of them with a single bigger unit. Or, better, 4-5 units with 5-6 bikes each. A nob with pk in each one of them. I'd probably cripple the ONLY jetbike unit turn 1, then charge it and wipe out easily. There's also the bullyboyz on the field, 15 meganobz typically, i can finish the jetbikes with them. And with bikers that warboss with 4-5 s10 ap2 I4 attacks. 20+ bikes are enough to ruin a single tomb blades unit, that's an average of more than 30 hits with s5. If you take a lot of jetbikes that would be an hard counter for bikers list, that's for sure. But i'm also sure that many necrons players won't field that many jetbikes. I never suffered a lot due to tomb blades, and i don't play MSU but a single unit with 10 bikes and 2 HQ, when i take bikers. It's the canoptek harvest the real issue, unkillable in the shooting phase and capable of tying anything if not killing anything.
slip wrote: Upgrades, do they want bonus jink or armour here? Ork bikers get 3+ jink standard.
E: I did calculate the point values for the tomb blades wrong on double checking.
Also, Ork Bikers are 4+ Jink Standard. 3+ if they forego shooting and turbo-boost OR if the unit is Zhadsnarks. He gives his UNIT Skilled rider, not his army.
Tomb Blades are better in every way imaginable to Ork Warbikers.
Orks have better Attacks and a better gun Versus Hordes.
Tomb Blades have better BS, S, LD, Save, Reanimation protocol, A significantly better gun versus almost any target bar cheap horde armies. And the gun is longer ranged, Better AP and can be upgraded to be good against hordes either in the form of Tesla (iffy) or Particle Beamer (small blast).
Of course not in person. I just read the reports for the grand tournaments. I don't have the model count to justify going to one.
Just six Tomb Blades can ignore all your saves, charge at you and therefore denying your main damage output, and just tie up the Bikers for the rest of the game. You honestly think you'll get through T5 3+/4+++ with S3 attacks?
I don't think neither you OR slip actually played against Necrons or even the game itself...
Wait your accusing them of not playing 40k games when in the same post you say you don't have enough models to go to tournaments?
About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.
About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.
What a shame. Did you have a lot?
I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.
It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.
I can imagine: I would be pretty devistated at something like that.
You had much luck rebuilding your collection?
I've got maybe 2000 of Necrons (nothing even painted but I'll be letting someone else do that because they want to) and then just Space Marines lying around. Any games with the latter I just borrow anything simply to contribute to the CSM tactics threads haha
About more than half my models are borrowed to do games ever since the rest of mine met their demise in a fire.
What a shame. Did you have a lot?
I had about 5000 points of Necrons vanish, and about 3500 give or take of Space Marines go, not including random characters I just made for them.
It was pretty gut wrenching not gonna lie.
Losing your house, things that were beloved to you. Plus a massive investment. What would this be, 1-2k dollars? Man I feel you.
But we are getting things derailed. I think we were in the middle fo a session of thinly vailed namecalling and ranting about strategy centered on bikes.
I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
cranect wrote: I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
Nauts are not among our best units, that's without any doubt. But a list with 5 of them and a stompa is very extreme and maybe they can actually work like that, i trust you if you say so. If you take just a single naut or two or them, they typically don't repay you in the game.
cranect wrote: I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
Nauts are not among our best units, that's without any doubt. But a list with 5 of them and a stompa is very extreme and maybe they can actually work like that, i trust you if you say so. If you take just a single naut or two or them, they typically don't repay you in the game.
The Gorkanaut crushing crew formation makes Gorkanauts into relatively scary late-game threats at least. The strength of the 'nauts is being immune to S6 from the front, and being immune to most non-dedicated melee units. Buzzgob's stompa helps too.
cranect wrote: I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?
Yes you're s6 immune but very slow and extremely vulnerable to melta deep strike. I've never seen a list with that many av13 HP to be honest, and i understand if it performs, very few armies can deal with them. But there are some hard counters, fast armies and melta drop pods would cause a lot of trouble, also in close combat the naugts suffer a lot units that strike very hard. Those nauts are considered crap beacuse usually you see one or two of them and they don't perform, due to poor shooting (lootas,bike, bustas cause more damage for the same points) and they're easy to deal with. But having 5 and a stompa is different, i'd really like to see a game with this list.
Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.
blaktoof wrote: Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.
Slow play so that your opponant doesn't get his turn 3 onwards; one of the biggest Ork tactics in my area and it annoys the hell out of me.
cranect wrote: I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?
I had a "wish I were rich" 2x Gorkanaught Krushing Krew list that I may still purchase one day. Mostly involved two Crushin Crew, and a CAD with max meks for repair rolls everywhere and a couple grot squads.
I have one Gorkanaught, he never fails me, takes around one melta shot and gets at least immobilized. When he rolls the save though sometimes he gets to stomp on some infantry gitz standing close enough to fire at him.
EDIT; Overall, Orkz still have good lowest common denominators in the form of unit spam, model spam, and meganobz spam. Orkz are a dice check army, from what I've experienced. If I bring MSU and they have enough MSU or split fire gimmicks, bad day. If I bring model spam and they have the flamers, high volume assault, Large Blasts, bad day. If I bring the Meganobz, and they have all the AP1/2 and Grav, bad day.
blaktoof wrote: Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.
We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.
blaktoof wrote: Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.
We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.
I agree there are some okay tournament lists, but tournaments are a poor reflection of 40k as some armies have many builds which rely on weathering casualties the first few turns to swamp the enemy turns 4-6. Which is how the rules of 40k intended it to be played. Removing those turns from the game changes the viability of certain armies greatly, one of those is Orks.
cranect wrote: I personally can't use bikers. They are good but for some unknown reason I hate them except when I run them as the snakebite cyboars with the squiggoths. So my competitive list is currently 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts, and buzzgobs stompa. It has faired pretty well and at a few local tournaments I have had a shot at the top 3 and placed over most of the field. Its slow but being immune to anything less than S7 is great. They have pretty decent shooting and combat is great. People underestimate it thanks to the internet widely declaring naughts as useless. Currently I have quickly killed 8/11 of the smash commanders and two of those who got away spent the whole game.running away. There are some top tier lists at our local events and this army hangs up there with them.
I really like to run this list ( with the exception of the kustom stompa instead of the discount stompa), and tried some AV 13 walker lists in the past but I can't seem to get it working. How do you mitigate the slow movement capabilities of the non super heavy walkers ?
Well since you and your opponent alternate objective deployment I normally try to deploy my three near my frontline and the center of the table. Then due to sheer size it makes a wall all the way across the board. Deep striking melta can hurt a lot and grav is irritating as well. Normally I will use 3-4 through the game and 2 will normally die before doing much of anything against other very competitive lists. In combat against massed S10 you will end up hurting but against S8 it isn't normally as bad. The worst list I have fought yet had 4 knights and I ended up killing only 2.5 because the stompa loves to whiff but that happens. For fast armies that try to play keep away the strategy ends up being walk onto the objectives and take it on the chin. So far people love to overload one side of them with the grav and such and they kill the naughts on that side so I send the stompa that way to take care of them. The stompa is deployed in the middle with a gorkanaut to one side and a morkanaut to the other. The morkanaut side then gets a gorkanaut and the other side gets a morkanaut and then another gorkanaut. This covers everyone with the KFFs. I roll on the strategic table to try for the conqueror of cities. They are not the best units in the dex but they are my favorite units so I made them work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I normally finish the games in 40-90 minutes since it plays quickly.
blaktoof wrote: Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.
We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.
I agree there are some okay tournament lists, but tournaments are a poor reflection of 40k as some armies have many builds which rely on weathering casualties the first few turns to swamp the enemy turns 4-6. Which is how the rules of 40k intended it to be played. Removing those turns from the game changes the viability of certain armies greatly, one of those is Orks.
I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?
I really must agree with the OP on Flash Gitz here. Most players dump on them because they require a transport and their gun is short ranged, but those things don't make them worthless. I remember in 5th edition you would've been laughed at for taking any unit without a transport. I've had great success putting them in a BW with KFF support and using them for board control. It's a 50" bubble that bikers, MEQ's, and TEQ's don't like at all since Snazzguns have a 33-50% chance to ignore their armor. Underrated unit for sure.
I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?
Nope they have game timers. So any move shoot move style army is free to waste all the time doing semi useless assault moves denying you the majority of assaults that you probably could have made in the last few turns. ; )
v0iddrgn wrote: I really must agree with the OP on Flash Gitz here. Most players dump on them because they require a transport and their gun is short ranged, but those things don't make them worthless. I remember in 5th edition you would've been laughed at for taking any unit without a transport. I've had great success putting them in a BW with KFF support and using them for board control. It's a 50" bubble that bikers, MEQ's, and TEQ's don't like at all since Snazzguns have a 33-50% chance to ignore their armor. Underrated unit for sure.
I disagree, they're not underrated at all, they cost a huge amount of points, tankbustas and bikes can cause more damage for the same points. 5 of them cost 110 points, 9 tankbustas are 117. Also 5 gitz and a BW are 230 points, for just 220 you can field 10 bikes including a nob with boss pole and pk and they would cause many more wounds that 5 flash gitz, being also more efficient in close combat. Flash gitz could be ok (but i wouldn't take them either) if their AP would be resolved with a D3, not a D6.
the only saving grace orks have right now is they can counter meta. ork boys are over costed, and whoever at GW decided cybork body needed to be changed to a fnp pain roll instead of a 5++ should be curb stomped (or just fired) . challenges really kill orks too oddly enough as the low I the nob usually hits last and as he can only ever have a 4+ marine sarg with a power sword or random hq guy makes him disappear. before the overprices power claw gets to go.
Yeah, but those Warbikers aren't going to shoot because they'll be turbo-boosting the whole time and they won't do equivalent CC damage for their points. Again, I look at Flash Gitz as a board control unit. Bikers just want to race around and grab objectives.
I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?
Nope they have game timers. So any move shoot move style army is free to waste all the time doing semi useless assault moves denying you the majority of assaults that you probably could have made in the last few turns. ; )
People are the worst, stalling you out is such an ugly tactic. Games should either:
1. have turn timers, which is totally reasonable. (pause when opponent is rolling) 2. have no time limit, and a set number of turns. (much worse still exploitable)
What's to stop your opponent from getting a 1 point lead and then just bursting into dance and ignoring the game for the next 2 hours?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
v0iddrgn wrote: Yeah, but those Warbikers aren't going to shoot because they'll be turbo-boosting the whole time and they won't do equivalent CC damage for their points. Again, I look at Flash Gitz as a board control unit. Bikers just want to race around and grab objectives.
*Edit I meant warbikers, damn autocorrect.
Well ork bikers turbo boost only in turn one, then shoot and assault if they need to. Flash gitz don't always shoot in turn one as they have the same range than bikers so their transport usually turbo boosts too. But even if they shoot a single round of flash gitz shooting at bs2 isn't scary. Against competitive lists they're useless. But you can have fun with them, as well as many ork units that are not really great. Dakkajets, burnas, stormboyz, kommandos and gorkanauts for example can perform sometimes, but there are many units that are more reliable.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...
With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.
*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...
With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.
*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.
You mean the BS3 they have to stand still for? On a unit that really shouldn't be standing still?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...
With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.
*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.
You mean the BS3 they have to stand still for? On a unit that really shouldn't be standing still?
That's part of the problem. If you move then you lose effectiveness, but their threat range if they don't move isn't good enough.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?
Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.
Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...
With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.
*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.
TEQ's? The problem with such is that you are standing still in order to deal with them, and that randomness is hoping for a 1 or 2.. That they still have a 5++, 4++, or 3++ for depending on Terminator.
High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.
v0iddrgn wrote: High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.
It is three shots at BS2. That's not a high rate of fire...
Bikes, lobbas, tankustas (especially with bomb squigs) and lootas, maybe KMK too, can cause many more wounds than flash gitz considering the same amount of points. Their randomness is a huge weakeness as if they can't ignore the armor they don't repay you. Lootas are also a bit random but a single volley of their shots can still be good. I prefer fixed strenght and ap but random number of shots than the opposite so you can shoot to an appropriate target. I love conversions and i made my own flash gitz just for fun but i typically never take them. They may find a room in the blitz brigade as they can get in range thanks to the scout move in order to fire with bs3 turn 1, otherwise heavy support slots are extremely precious, you want many other things before flash gitz.
Every time i run flash gitz they tend to fail with their shooting and just stomp stuff to death in mellee. And i wonder, why don't i just take regular nobz with more attacks and 4+ armor for cheaper. And than i take regular nobz and they end up being overpriced, underpowerclawed and very fragile. And i wonder, why don't i take meganobz? And than i take meganobz and they're doing good.
v0iddrgn wrote: High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.
As said, three shots at BS2. I've seen them successfully roll a 1.. Just to plink off the invulnerable save anyways, the problem is they don't bring much. You're bringing BS2 with 3 shots with a 2/3rd chance of whiffing AP, and at that point a squad of shoota boyz is more effective.
On average (which is a difficult thing to talk about for Flash Gitz given how all or nothing they are), that's 2.22 dead marines if you move, 3.33 dead marines if you scouted (discounting cover saves) or 1.11 dead termies if you move, 1.66 if you didn't (which goes down to 0.74 dead hammernators or 1.11 dead hammernators if you didn't move)
They do alright against marines out in the open half the time, but that's a pretty poor role. The fact that they're T4 multiwound models with a 6+ save means that a battlewagon is almost mandatory, doubling their cost. You know what Flash Gitz remind me of at 22 ppm, passable against marines out in the open and not much else while desperately needing a transport to be effective? Thousand Sons. Except for 1 more point per model, the Sons have a 3+/4++ and a psycher with a force weapon for a sargent. And they're terrible. DOn't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're really that comparable, just that both of them are expensive units that don't do the one job they're meant to. I just don't see how anyone can defend Gitz (beyond their models, which I absolutely love). It's also a shame that their formations is also basically unusable because they don't fit in a transport and rolling that many master crafted 3 shot weapons would be a massive pain. That and it's 550 points.
If Gitz work for you, awesome, I'm glad that someone has a chance to put some awesome models on the table and achieve something except eating a bunch of ap6 or higher ignores cover shots (why, hello thunderfire cannon), but they're not the sort of thing that you recommend to anyone looking for a way to start or expand orks, or just anyone at all really.
koooaei wrote: Every time i run flash gitz they tend to fail with their shooting and just stomp stuff to death in mellee. And i wonder, why don't i just take regular nobz with more attacks and 4+ armor for cheaper. And than i take regular nobz and they end up being overpriced, underpowerclawed and very fragile. And i wonder, why don't i take meganobz? And than i take meganobz and they're doing good.
This kind of sums it up
Time and again at the end of a match I ask myself "Why did I even try to shoot?" "Why do I ever bring shootas?" "Why don't I have more Power Klaws?" "These Lootas suck" "My tankbustas can't shoot anything."
I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNGAP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).
Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.
Vankraken wrote: I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNGAP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).
Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.
Drasius wrote: It's also a shame that their formations is also basically unusable because they don't fit in a transport and rolling that many master crafted 3 shot weapons would be a massive pain. That and it's 550 points.
.
At minimum Kaptin Badrukk's Flash Gitz, when combined into one unit, must be at least 21 models so yes they can't fit in a battlewagon, but they could fit in a Skullhamma or a Kustom Battlefortress though (they each can take 30 models) and still have room for kff big meks and other IC,
Flash Gitz have a 1/3rd chance to have AP to hurt Terminators, a 1/2 Chance to have AP to hurt Marines and nothing else really matters.
10 Gitz in a BW with a KillKannon, Ram and 2 rokkitz = 375pts For that price you get 30 BS2 S5 APD6 shots a Single S7 AP3 Pie plate and 2 S8 AP3 Rokkitz (BS2)
Against Marines in the open.
30 shots, BS2 = 10 hits, S5 Vs T4 = about 7 wounds. 1/2 the time that will result in 7 Dead Marines the other half that will be 2 dead Marines. The Kill Kannon fires and is useless but lets say it does something ok? 1/3rd chance to hit, and if it misses it only has BS2 so anything higher then a 6 to scatter usually means a miss. 2 rokkitz = 2/3rd chance to get a single hit....
so nice, you killed a bunch of MEQs, Put them in 4+ cover though and those 7 dead from shooting just went to 3-4. I won't calculate BS3 because you have to stay stationary for that and with Range 24 on everything thats hard to do. And since they are in a giant open topped vehicle with massive sides with only AV12 its a big juicy target. 1 Drop pod with 3 Meltas has a GREAT chance to cause this thing to explode. 3 Melta shots = 2 hits, 2 Pens (on average) and thats +3 on the chart so it has 2 50% shots to cause an explosion. When it does explode thats 10 Nobz taking S4 hits so 5 wounds with 6+ armor means on average 4 unsaved wounds or 2 dead Flash Gitz. They have to roll Pinning and everything else like normal as well
So for the same amount of points your putting into that Gitz unit I can field 3 units of 4 Warbikers with a Nob W/PK. They can put out 45 S5 AP5 TL shots a turn which is on average 25 hits, against T4 = 16-17 Wounds which against 3+ = 5 dead Marines each turn. The best part? They actually have a better threat range then Flash Gitz because they can move 12 and still fire, they can Jink to stay alive and have T5 with 4+ armor standard. Ohh and I have 3 Powerklaws in their so I can actually hurt things that have good AV or T value.
Flash Gitz suck, im sorry they just do. Van's idea works only because of threat overload, but against tournament lists it will fail, investing 550pts (Naked) into Battlewagons with Boyz inside won't do you much good against the tournament net lists and other shenanigans.
I still hold that FlashGitz are one of the worst units in the codex. The only reason anyone has success with the is the SAME REASON why orks have success at all in most competitive games, they get massively under-estimated.
The Kill Kannon fires and is useless but lets say it does something ok? 1/3rd chance to hit, and if it misses it only has BS2 so anything higher then a 6 to scatter usually means a miss. 2 rokkitz = 2/3rd chance to get a single hit....
Actually if the killkannon fires those rokkis can only snap fire so each one of them has 1/6 to hit....
Vankraken wrote: I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNGAP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).
Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.
What are you playing against? I really don't want to diminish gitz but our meta is pretty competitive and they tend to do jack squat with their 'fancy' shooting vs the common competitive foe. Also, there's a huge problem with ld7 when you run them in a transport cause they're often forced to take it due to vehicle damage.
They might be useful from time to time - sure. But i've found that lobbas and lootas are just cheaper, easier to use, more numerous and more effective overall.
Vankraken wrote: I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNGAP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).
Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.
What are you playing against? I really don't want to diminish gitz but our meta is pretty competitive and they tend to do jack squat with their 'fancy' shooting vs the common competitive foe. Also, there's a huge problem with ld7 when you run them in a transport cause they're often forced to take it due to vehicle damage.
They might be useful from time to time - sure. But i've found that lobbas and lootas are just cheaper, easier to use, more numerous and more effective overall.
Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines (Wolves and Vanilla) with my Orks. Like i said I use a lot of Bltiz Brigade strategies which dramatically reduces my turn 1 casualties unless turn 1 is just a dumpster fire of bad luck. I wish my meta was more chill but I make myself use the Gitz because i love the models/fluff behind them so I make them work the best that i can and they actually pay dividends by the end game. Rarely the stars but they usually pull their weight because they survive inside their Battlewagon.
koooaei wrote: Well, on the other hand i had good luck with possessed a couple times i used them.
How do you deal with flash gitz and snap-shooting after damage to their transports? It's pretty easy to damage a battlewagon.
LOL you dont
10 Gitz with 30 shots is still 5 hits, against T4 thats 3-4 wounds still. So you have a 50/50 to do 3-4 AP1-3 wounds to a SM. In other words, Garbage for 375pts
Either way it feels like they're ok with giving us garbage rules. We didn't pick space marines? Well you get to kill your own models because THEY'RE SO SILLY and definitely the npcs! Have fun you inept child! Yea we gave you rules that do nothing, be glad we gave you rules at all!
I don't understand pissing all over fans of one of your model ranges. It just baffles my mind.
koooaei wrote: Well, on the other hand i had good luck with possessed a couple times i used them.
How do you deal with flash gitz and snap-shooting after damage to their transports? It's pretty easy to damage a battlewagon.
If the Git wagon is getting shot at I try to make sure it's covered by terrain to make it harder to actually damage it. If they are that hell bent on shooting that wagon then the others must already be scrap or they have really bizarre target priority. Either way I just use the snap shot turns to move the wagon up to 12". On rare occasions there are things worth charging so I might unload, snap shoot, and charge something but I avoid moving around without a transport until the later turns when enemy firepower is diminished. Even when snap shooting they tend to be risking for bikes to not jink or else they risk an AP that will melt their armor and that many snap shots hurt when they happen to be ignoring your armor.
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points
I'ts just a bad time to play Orks I guess. I do have to wonder if they SM Dreads are used more now with the extra attacks than before. Or if they're still viewed more or less the same.
If Killa Kans came back down in points and dreads and Nauts dropped as well that would be fantastic.
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points
10 pts. Bigshootas have to be bought for 5 pts each.
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points
I'ts just a bad time to play Orks I guess. I do have to wonder if they SM Dreads are used more now with the extra attacks than before. Or if they're still viewed more or less the same.
If Killa Kans came back down in points and dreads and Nauts dropped as well that would be fantastic.
Indeed it is, it's been that way since I started playing but I'm no old timer and joined at the start of 6th Edition. It must feel worse for the veteran Ork players. It doesn't seem like people are taking Dreads much more at all, but I've seen the Hellbrute a bit more frequently since it had the +2 A treatment. I'd love to see Kans back at their old cost without Cowardly Grots, Deff Dreads should have 'Ere We Go, free Skorchas and 5 point PKs. G/Morkanauts should get the Effigy special rule and could be around 80 points cheaper or be SHW at the current/slightly inflated price.
Why haven't dreads gained 4A like all other dreadnaughts?
If you mean Deff Dreads, why should they . they start with 3 attacks and have an additional attack for their extra DCCW. making 4 and can buy two more making 6 and gain one more for the charge. All that from 80 to 100 points.
I don't know how much an Imperial Dread costs. Maybe thy're under costed now?
SM Dreads cost 100 points. They have +2 BS, +2 Initiative and +1 Attacks compared to a Dread; they come with Chapter Tactics, Smoke Launchers and a Searchlight as well as a Power Fist, Storm Bolter and Multi-Melta. Deff Dreads come with a Power Klaw and two Big Shootas. No way all those improvements are only worth 20 points
10 pts. Bigshootas have to be bought for 5 pts each.
Not 15 points? Deff dreads have 2 big shootas stock, for 85 points. You can replace them with other weapons spending some points. It's a very long time since i field a deff dread but if i remember correctly the standard model costs 85 points with 2 pks and 2 big shootas.
I've got my codex here, they cost 80 points and come with 2 PKs and 2 Big Shootas that can be swapped freely for Rokkits or pay to upgrade them to Skorchas, PKs or KMBs.
Indeed it is, it's been that way since I started playing but I'm no old timer and joined at the start of 6th Edition. It must feel worse for the veteran Ork players. It doesn't seem like people are taking Dreads much more at all, but I've seen the Hellbrute a bit more frequently since it had the +2 A treatment. I'd love to see Kans back at their old cost without Cowardly Grots, Deff Dreads should have 'Ere We Go, free Skorchas and 5 point PKs. G/Morkanauts should get the Effigy special rule and could be around 80 points cheaper or be SHW at the current/slightly inflated price.
Orks are a lot harder to use now days. I don't play as much as I used to so it's difficult for me to keep my skills sharp. I don't win that much now days. I play with a fairly select group of people so even when I don't win games are close. which for me is more fun. I'd rather tie in 7 turns than win.
So far just a flat 80 point Deff dread has been the way to go. they've put in some work for me. It's come down to keeping them near where I want to have a fight I can win. using other units and setting up where I am going to take losses. sort of a rear guard unit. Trying to jump in a combat to turn the tide for the boys or jump on vehicles. It more or less has come down to how many do I put in my list Vs do I just take one with all the DCCW's.
I'm not too bothered at all about the SM Dread. Doesn't matter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I can't believe someone listed the Searchlight as though it were a benefit.
I'd gladly pay 1 less point just to get rid of it.
How is it not a benefit? If I played against you I would happily let you reduce the cost of your Dread by 1 point and lose the Searchlight.
I've played since 4th and I can count on ONE hand the amount of times I used a searchlight.
Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.
haha. Well I'm not saying they're an awesome bit of equipment but they have their uses and I was just outlining the differences between SM and Ork Dreads. I've had Searchlights used against me fairly regularly, but admittedly it's usually from a Rhino.
I like my Orks. I roll like gak so we figured out put the onus on the opponent to roll dice and I'll just remove models. Sounds weird, but I do quite well with 120-some boys and grots and only need 20 or so to reach the enemy. I don't think Orks are horrible, but we do have many bad match-ups.
Hell, they could just get rid of it, keep the points the same, and nobody would notice.
You can't prove that.
Honestly I woulnd't. Forget about counting, I think I've never used searchlights nor felt I needed them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VeteranNoob wrote: I like my Orks. I roll like gak so we figured out put the onus on the opponent to roll dice and I'll just remove models. Sounds weird, but I do quite well with 120-some boys and grots and only need 20 or so to reach the enemy. I don't think Orks are horrible, but we do have many bad match-ups.
Which is a pity. AoS has very comeptitive orcs (and even in tournament-tier limitations). It's almost mindboggling that GW doesn't buff them. These armies require quite hefty investments, even when taking into account the fact that people can scratchbuild... well... the whole armory as long as it runs on land. Maybe not the deffdreads, but the rest can be scratchbuild. But aerial units and boy units? They'd just make a trukkload of money with making them competitive.
35pts a model with AV11, 2 HPs, At initiative WS2 DCCWs (S10)
Now?
50pts a model with AV11, 2 HPs, At initiative WS2 DCCWS (S7!!!!!) ohh and The moronic Cowardly grots rule, you know, in case we forget never to take Killa Kanz again.
it's 40 pts previously cause they had to buy 1 shooty weapon anywayz. But they've dropped from decently good in 5-th to really bad in 6 and than never-include in 7.
What honestly gets me the most is how somebody thought making a killakan more expensive then a meganob, or a deffkopta was okay. They both outperform kanz at everything except immunity to small arms. One could say kanz are dual purpose too, not neccasarily useful to go at I2 or 1 with front av11 though. Grenades getting faqd to one per assault might bring a tiny boon to walker spam.
This thread is quite funny. My favorite part of the first post was conveniently forgetting a whole phase of the game, namely "The Psychic Phase." Only 3 armies are worse at that. And who in their right mind thinks that there is ANY so pervasive and ludicrous nerf to ANY ARMY IN 40KAS "Mob Rule?" Un-arguably THE WORST.... but please argue...
10 Boyz in Truk with BP Nob
Truk Pops
5 are wounded in the explosion. 1 saves....
Pinning Test (Leadership)
- If failed attack yourself with Strength HIGHER than your BASE Str (WTF?)
>25% Lost in Phase (Leadership)
- If failed attack yourself with Strength HIGHER than your BASE Str (again...WTF?)
Its like the opposite of killing a pink horror. You kill one boy and the boy next to him kills another for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rismo... dont get me started on my Kan rant.. ..
Mob rule is ok, it allows you to pass failed ld checks. Also it's appropriate for orks, it fits them completely. It's not a big deal, you should have many expendable MSU of trukk boyz, and lootas, tankbustas, meganobz really don't care about mob rule. Also bikes being T5 e 4+ are not particularly affected. Mob rule hurts only ork boyz, but they're not your most valuable part of the army, so it's fair. About psychic phase i agree, i never take weirdboys, but again i don't think an army made of cavemen should have powerful wizards so it's ok.
1. Name a rule as crucifying as MobRule?
2. By fluff, Orks are the most powerful psychers in the game.
3. Orks are NOT "cavemen." Theyre fungi-men... that may SOMETIMES dwell in a cave like setting
I wouldn't mind Mob Rule if costs were dropped, as a way of adding a negative rule because you get really cheap stuff.
But it's just a negative added to an army that doesn't really need a negative. It's like WHFB O&G animosity where the goal was to reduce the amount of Animosity in the entire army
1. Name a rule as crucifying as MobRule?
2. By fluff, Orks are the most powerful psychers in the game.
3. Orks are NOT "cavemen." Theyre fungi-men... that may SOMETIMES dwell in a cave like setting
Mob rule is not that bad, i usually only have 2 min squads of trukk boyz at 1850 and trukk spam so my typical list is mostly not affected by it. You lose 5-6 boyz a game due to that rule, and running away is certainly worse. Mob rule can be even nice if the opponent has to score psycological warfare and thanks to that rule orks don't fail their morale test. About weirdboys, i always considered orks something like mad max characters even before fury road came out in theatres. Savages with a lot of scratch built vehicles. Wizards don't fit that theme, so i never considered the psychic phase to be crucial in orks games. Anyway the most powerful psykers in 40k background are not among the orks, that's for sure.
Dark eldars for sure as they don't have a single psyker in their codex, then tau and probably necrons as you don't see many c'tan in their lists. It's mainly because orks psykers are really cheap and necrons ones are not, but i think they're not worse than orks in the psychic phase. These four armies, including orks, skip the psychic phase almost every game. Any other army has a more effective psychic phase than these ones.
Dark eldars for sure as they don't have a single psyker in their codex, then tau and probably necrons as you don't see many c'tan in their lists. It's mainly because orks psykers are really cheap and necrons ones are not, but i think they're not worse than orks in the psychic phase. These four armies, including orks, skip the psychic phase almost every game. Any other army has a more effective psychic phase than these ones.
Adeptus Mechanicus and Sisters of Battle? Not a psycher between them.
...and probably necrons as you don't see many c'tan in their lists.
Not sure why C'Tans are even relevant to 'Worst Psychic Phase' as they aren't Psykers and aren't in any way a psychic defence mechanism.
Did you mean to mention the terrible Gloom Prism upgrade on Spyders that no one takes because Adamantium Will is laughable at best when most opponents only use Blessings and Conjurations?
doktor_g wrote: This thread is quite funny. My favorite part of the first post was conveniently forgetting a whole phase of the game, namely "The Psychic Phase." Only 3 armies are worse at that. And who in their right mind thinks that there is ANY so pervasive and ludicrous nerf to ANY ARMY IN 40KAS "Mob Rule?" Un-arguably THE WORST.... but please argue...
10 Boyz in Truk with BP Nob
Truk Pops
5 are wounded in the explosion. 1 saves....
Pinning Test (Leadership)
- If failed attack yourself with Strength HIGHER than your BASE Str (WTF?)
>25% Lost in Phase (Leadership)
- If failed attack yourself with Strength HIGHER than your BASE Str (again...WTF?)
Its like the opposite of killing a pink horror. You kill one boy and the boy next to him kills another for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rismo... dont get me started on my Kan rant.. ..
Instinctive behaviour - Pretty sure Nids falling out of Synapse have you beat.
I'll disagree there. I have used the gargantuan squiggoth to some success here and the meta is pretty competitive. I was just messing around but it ended up working since I did better than 1/2 the field. Filled it with burnas and a mek with a kff. It was hilarious against the thunderwolves and wulfen since they didn't want anything to do with it. I also prefer mob rule with large squads out of the ghazzy book since it means you wont fail. Whenever I take a mob rule check it normally ends up doing nothing. Also I think there is a result for instictive behavior where they eat each other.
doktor_g wrote: No. Instinctive behavior is NOT worse. Nids dont eat EACHOTHER.
Hormagaunts actually inflict hits on each other, half the time without synapse they will each inflict one hit on their unit. So you lose half the unit for not being in synapse, every other turn.
They also can't do anything else during the turn that happens.
Funny because in the fluff:
"...Hormagaunts have fearsome hunting instincts and require little direction from the Hive
Mind to seek out and slaughter prey. Indeed, once the Tyranid assault begins, they are
mostly left to their own devices..."
At least, once they're done and painted, that's it. The 120-some boyz, 90-ish gretchen and 30-some nobs took a while to batch paint for a tournament but that's out of the way. Yes, you have to paint new models for any army, but for hordes it can be quite daunting.
doktor_g wrote: No. Instinctive behavior is NOT worse. Nids dont eat EACHOTHER.
Hormagaunts actually inflict hits on each other, half the time without synapse they will each inflict one hit on their unit. So you lose half the unit for not being in synapse, every other turn.
They also can't do anything else during the turn that happens.
Funny because in the fluff:
"...Hormagaunts have fearsome hunting instincts and require little direction from the Hive
Mind to seek out and slaughter prey. Indeed, once the Tyranid assault begins, they are
mostly left to their own devices..."
Probably forgotten because how many people actually use Hormagaunts?
VeteranNoob wrote: At least, once they're done and painted, that's it. The 120-some boyz, 90-ish gretchen and 30-some nobs took a while to batch paint for a tournament but that's out of the way. Yes, you have to paint new models for any army, but for hordes it can be quite daunting.
doktor_g wrote: No. Instinctive behavior is NOT worse. Nids dont eat EACHOTHER.
Hormagaunts actually inflict hits on each other, half the time without synapse they will each inflict one hit on their unit. So you lose half the unit for not being in synapse, every other turn.
They also can't do anything else during the turn that happens.
Funny because in the fluff:
"...Hormagaunts have fearsome hunting instincts and require little direction from the Hive
Mind to seek out and slaughter prey. Indeed, once the Tyranid assault begins, they are
mostly left to their own devices..."
Probably forgotten because how many people actually use Hormagaunts?
I just want to know why GW thought they needed to nerf so many things in the codex and make us still pay the 4th edition prices. Remember when furious assault gave +1 init too?
the_scotsman wrote: To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.
Indeed. And yet sadly this is pretty much normal. I had several Space Marine players (of several varieties) delivering personal insults to me in the news section (which the mods thankfully dealt with after a while) because I didn't get as hyped as they felt I should be about getting what turned out to be a single character mini with a couple minions she uses to become more survivable, a bland re-hash of rules, and a meta-detachment that forces me to include non-sisters minis in order to use.
Because, apparently, how dare I find it underwhelming to get a single new character-- however nice the character is-- when I'm still using metal miniatures from 2nd and 3rd edition as the foundation of my entire army, when Marine players of all stripes AND YES THIS INCLUDES CHAOS PLAYERS BEFORE YOU TRY TO PRETEND YOU ARE AN EXCEPTION get new toys all the damn time.
VeteranNoob wrote: At least, once they're done and painted, that's it. The 120-some boyz, 90-ish gretchen and 30-some nobs took a while to batch paint for a tournament but that's out of the way. Yes, you have to paint new models for any army, but for hordes it can be quite daunting.
No kidding. Its why Im so pissed off.
jealous, but also the song of my people. Of course, yours are red so they go fasta
the_scotsman wrote: To see Sisters players getting psyched about the new Celestine and Dark Eldar players speculating about maybe getting Lady Malys back, and then having CSM and SM players complaining that the marines didn't get anything in this release is reasonably frustrating.
Indeed. And yet sadly this is pretty much normal. I had several Space Marine players (of several varieties) delivering personal insults to me in the news section (which the mods thankfully dealt with after a while) because I didn't get as hyped as they felt I should be about getting what turned out to be a single character mini with a couple minions she uses to become more survivable, a bland re-hash of rules, and a meta-detachment that forces me to include non-sisters minis in order to use.
Because, apparently, how dare I find it underwhelming to get a single new character-- however nice the character is-- when I'm still using metal miniatures from 2nd and 3rd edition as the foundation of my entire army, when Marine players of all stripes AND YES THIS INCLUDES CHAOS PLAYERS BEFORE YOU TRY TO PRETEND YOU ARE AN EXCEPTION get new toys all the damn time.
Oh look Sisters players playing martyr again.
Heaven forbid a Marine player would like more stuff too, huh?
Could we not have another sister/chaos fight, please? We're all in this mess together, so lets keep chill and... um, complain abut how bad orks have it. :V
There's quite a few things that got worse in the change over, not just Mob Rule.
Waaagh! now requires a warboss, so if you decided to play a big mek lead army you don't get to use the iconic ork ability Attack Squigs went from +1 attack to reroll one attack, even though they cost the same as they did before. Oh yeah, and making cybork useless KFF is now per model rather than per unit. and can't bubble out of vehicles. But we're going to take it anyway, because it's our only way to get inv saves It's just a straight up shame what happened to the ork special characters Stormboyz's rokkit packs are more lethal to themselves, and the special ability only gives an additional 1d6 when you run, so they can't assault when they use their one special ability (except on the waagh!), vs getting 1d6 on your movement phase and only losing a guy if you roll a 1. Burnaboyz used to be AP2 back in 5th, then became power swords in 6th for AP3 (enough though power axes would have made 100% more sense with the fluff) Grots actually got worse (or more specifically, the runtherders) Shootaboyz went up a point, rather than making slugga boyz more useful the new ramshackle rarely helps and vehicles exploding will kill half your boyz And the battle wagon did not need to go up by 20 points after they already nerfed the Deff Rolla into uselessness (and can we talk about how they gave GSC a better Deff Rolla?) Lootas getting moved to the incredibly competitive HS slot isn't really fixed by the 1pt drop Oh God, those killa kans didn't know what hit them
Edit: I guess I should make it fair and point out the buffs Ere We Go Weirdboyz actually got a massive buff. No more chances to blow yourself up, not more random powers each turn, has an actual weapon (a force maul, too!) Waaagh! Energy works like you expect (although the cap of 1 extra warp dice is sad), and despite all that he went down in price! the problem is more that the current psychic phase is very "Go big or go home", so when you do take a weirdboy he can't actually do anything because he's going to be shutdown by anything that bothered. Painboyz are a massive boon now that they're HQs instead of options in certain units. Although they're now practically mandatory. Rokkit launchers costing 5 points was definitely needed. Tankbustas finally got tankhunters! And Glory Hound isn't a massive millstone! but they also made tankhammer bad and that made me sad (oh yeah, and the grenade nerf) Meganobz do benefit from Mob Rule, and killsaws are great. Kommandos finally have stealth! They can't assault out of infiltrate or outflank anymore, but at least they have stealth The huge price drop for biker makes up for no longer having a permanent +4 cover save Buggies having outflank is really good and has helpped in a lot of my games the Big/Mek Gunz going down in price and the improvement to artillerty. Although half of them are still duds, the others are still useful. Deff dreads did get better. Kinda. Big shootas standard, all options got cheaper. Problem is that with SM dreadnoughts getting more attacks across the board, there's no way deff dread come off as anything but worse dreadnaughts.
Looking between the the books, it really does seem like most of the changes were made based on old 5th edition builds
Mob Rule used to be a great rule that kept your boyz from running away or being swept.
Yes and no.
It's defendant on which edition your playing. I'll take mob rule for 7th in 7th over mob rule in 5th for 4th.
It seems better, the old mob rule, but it also had it's problems. Your Orks are fearless, you loose combat. Combat resolution say you loose by 10. you try to make 10 more saves. you save one.
You lost 19 model in total that round. Huzza! Next round your mob evaporates into green mist. (I really hated 5th edition.)
Or you loose and take maybe 6 hits and saves.
I absolutely hate that they gave GSC a better version of the old deff rolla and made ours useless.... I loved that thing even though I was just starting and it rarely got to do anything because of that. It was just a ton of fun and now everytime I sit there and go oh how I wish this were useful without needing the enemy to do something stupid.... In the 5-6 years I have been playing I have seen a grand total of 1 death or glory.... I like to ram a lot as well and that's all I have seen that rule used...
Mob Rule used to be a great rule that kept your boyz from running away or being swept.
Yes and no.
It's defendant on which edition your playing. I'll take mob rule for 7th in 7th over mob rule in 5th for 4th.
It seems better, the old mob rule, but it also had it's problems. Your Orks are fearless, you loose combat. Combat resolution say you loose by 10. you try to make 10 more saves. you save one.
You lost 19 model in total that round. Huzza! Next round your mob evaporates into green mist. (I really hated 5th edition.)
Or you loose and take maybe 6 hits and saves.
On the otherhand, No Retreat only applied to melee combat, where as this version of mob rule can kill your own guys from being pinned, shoot at, or your trukk exploding. it doesn't apply to fear (making orks the only army that's actually negatively effected by fear), or any other leadership realted stuff (where as old mob rules let you replace your leadership with the # of boyz at any time) and there's always that small chance you roll a 1 twice and your massive horde of boys are running for the table edge.
No Retreat sucked, but the current Mob Rule is far more likely to make playing aggravating (vs the rare time your 30 boy mob didn't obliterate whatever you assaulted)
Mob Rule used to be a great rule that kept your boyz from running away or being swept.
Yes and no.
It's defendant on which edition your playing. I'll take mob rule for 7th in 7th over mob rule in 5th for 4th.
It seems better, the old mob rule, but it also had it's problems. Your Orks are fearless, you loose combat. Combat resolution say you loose by 10. you try to make 10 more saves. you save one.
You lost 19 model in total that round. Huzza! Next round your mob evaporates into green mist. (I really hated 5th edition.)
Or you loose and take maybe 6 hits and saves.
On the otherhand, No Retreat only applied to melee combat, where as this version of mob rule can kill your own guys from being pinned, shoot at, or your trukk exploding. it doesn't apply to fear (making orks the only army that's actually negatively effected by fear), or any other leadership realted stuff (where as old mob rules let you replace your leadership with the # of boyz at any time) and there's always that small chance you roll a 1 twice and your massive horde of boys are running for the table edge.
No Retreat sucked, but the current Mob Rule is far more likely to make playing aggravating (vs the rare time your 30 boy mob didn't obliterate whatever you assaulted)
Most armies are effected by fear - Necrons, IG, DE, Chaos marines, some Eldar units and Tau (well melee is some thing that they don't like anyways). Really the only armies that are immune to fear are SM and Daemons (and maybe Tyranids dont know on that). Mob rule sucks just because its horrible mechanics wise, on the table tho you tend to only lose a random ork boy or two. They should just change it to a reroll, or a bonus to moral checks and get away from the million rolls that are required atm (and give stubborn to large units).
IG are not affected by fear cause they have army-wide fearless and ld9-10 with stubborn and ability to ignore any ld if they kill a guy. All worthwhile CSM mellee units are fearless and with legions - they're all ld10 and half of the legion tactics involve fearless. All necrons are ld10 and their most common mellee units are fearless - could help vs warrior blobs if you have fear modifiers, though. Eldar mellee units are either fearless or ld10. Tau don't care about mellee and fear cause. DE have it rough but you generally see a corpsethieft claw or a bunch of homunculus-juiced dudes that are often ld10 or fearless too.
And now ork mellee units are also fearless cause bully boyz. And even if you're running a ton of boyz, you've probably either taken a FW stompa with a fearless bauble or Ghazcurion with army-wide fear from turn1.
It's night lords that have it rough cause fear is their main tactics and it matters SO rarely. Vs harlequins, necron warriors, other night lords or an occasional ork boy squad taken out of stompa fearless range or out of ghazcurion.
I'd not call it too bad - it just forces orks to shift to another approach. Ditch masses of boyz, get bully boyz and just run an occasional trukk or so. It's not a rarity to see an ork army with zero ork boyz in it. Kinda like a marine army without tactical marines or chaos space marine army without chaos space marines. I blame the ruleset for it. In the world where bikers can climb walls and fight in mellee while being faster, tougher, somehow better with shooting and just a couple points more expensive than footslogging dudes. And all that this very dudes can do is either hide in a metal bawx to roll around grabbing objectives - that others are not much worse at grabbing either - or hide in fortifications made out of explodium covered with newspaper armored plates. End everything is just so damn tough, fast, killy and cheap that there is just not much your troops can do other than being a tax or min support.
Luckilly, ork boyz can be a passable min support. Just min guyz inside a trukk - even without a nob - can be ok at disrupting the backline or scoring. They can still kick the opponent's tax units' arse or even tie up something not particularly choppy.
Lootas getting moved to the incredibly competitive HS slot isn't really fixed by the 1pt drop
This is actually a good thing, they cost 1 point less and don't compete with meganobz and tankbustas, which i take everytime. 3 elites are always taken in my lists, i never have an elite slot available. But with trukks spam or the blitz brigade you can have 3 shooty HS choices, typically 5 lobbas and 2x5 lootas, sometimes i go with 3x5 lootas. So lootas can find a room quite easily now. If they were elites i'd never include them in my lists as i always want 3x5 tankbustas or 2x5 tankbustas and a manz missile if i don't use the bullyboyz formation.
Looking between the the books, it really does seem like most of the changes were made based on old 5th edition builds
THIS!
Any builds/units that were good in the previous codex were for the most part nerfed into borderline uselessness.
Kan Wall: BEFORE
35pt Kanz with S10 DCCWs. You would see between 6-18 of these Kanz walking across the board.
Kan Wall: AFTER
50pt Kanz with S7 DCCWs, and Leadership issues. The only thing the benefited from was weapons got marginally cheaper.
Boyz Spam: BEFORE
2-6 30x Boyz with a Nob BP/PK Leading them across the table in a gigantic swarm. Fearless for all intents and purposes.
Boyz Spam: AFTER
Well this is still a tactic but its not nearly as effective. LD7 now with Mob rule which tends to kill between 1-4 boyz a check. No longer fearless and shootas got more expensive. On the plus side Rokkitz and Big Shootas got cheaper, but whose going to pay extra points for a handful of S5 or 1 S8 shot at BS2?
Deff Rolla Rush: BEFORE
3-5 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas running across the table, disgorging units in the face of the enemy and then ramming them with D6 S10 hits. EVERY vehicle in the game feared a battelwagon with a Deff Rolla.
Deff Rolla Rush: AFTER:
Nope. I have yet to see Deff Rollas taken. Why? because its now D3 S10 hits and ONLY if they death or glory....or in other words its a 15?pt upgrade that can be ignored by your enemy not choosing to be stupid.
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Nob Biker Spam: BEFORE
A unit of Nobz on bike with hidden PKs for relatively expensive, but you could play with the wound pool so they stayed alive longer
Nob Biker Spam: AFTER
Again, nope. 18pts for a Nob, 27pts to buy him a bike...wtf? And god help you if you want a powerklaw. 70pts for a PK Nob, and you can no longer do wound pool shenanigans. I don't see Nob bikers ever anymore. They eed their price cut by 15pts and even then its a tough call.
I mean I am ok with GW nerfing the best stuff from a codex, They probably need to do this to force players to buy the new cool toys in order to turn a profit. I got that. But they didn't replace our USEFUL builds with anything. Meganobz didn't get any better really. A Bosspole was almost as good as the new Mob rule and the other build? Warbike spam? Not really a replacement because its been around in FW forever.
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional.
With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3.
Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional.
With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3.
Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
ok thanks for the heads up
Even then though, the Dakkajet is still a flying Burning pile of garbage. Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days. especially when it costs you 130-145 (Flyboss) points on an AV10 platform. Eldar can get 5 Scat bikes for the same price which can put out 20 S6 shots and at a higher BS.
Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days.
I've had trouble getting them to do much. 2 of them shooting at a White Scars command squad 24 twin linked shots. I may have killed 2 at best 3 in that unit. I've had a lot of success with Blitz bombers wiping whole squads of Marines out. But I use the formations which keeps them out of a fast attack slot.
koooaei wrote: In all fairness, mob rule in 5-th killed way more boyz than mob rule in 7-th.
It's true. More than once was a full 30 man mob of boyz of mine lose half their number from No Retreat! wounds from blenderhouses like a unit of charging Khorne Berserkers.
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional.
With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3.
Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
ok thanks for the heads up
Even then though, the Dakkajet is still a flying Burning pile of garbage. Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days. especially when it costs you 130-145 (Flyboss) points on an AV10 platform. Eldar can get 5 Scat bikes for the same price which can put out 20 S6 shots and at a higher BS.
AV10 flyer with BS3 Twin Linked but still its not amazing. Also your picking Eldar Scat Bikes as the comparison and very few things in the game can compare to those undercosted piles of cheddar.
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional.
With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3.
Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
ok thanks for the heads up
Even then though, the Dakkajet is still a flying Burning pile of garbage. Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days. especially when it costs you 130-145 (Flyboss) points on an AV10 platform. Eldar can get 5 Scat bikes for the same price which can put out 20 S6 shots and at a higher BS.
AV10 flyer with BS3 Twin Linked but still its not amazing. Also your picking Eldar Scat Bikes as the comparison and very few things in the game can compare to those undercosted piles of cheddar.
It's bs2 twin-linked vs ground targets cause of DFTS that adds a -1 bs modifier.
Dakkajet: BEFORE Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional. With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3. Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
ok thanks for the heads up
Even then though, the Dakkajet is still a flying Burning pile of garbage. Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days. especially when it costs you 130-145 (Flyboss) points on an AV10 platform. Eldar can get 5 Scat bikes for the same price which can put out 20 S6 shots and at a higher BS.
AV10 flyer with BS3 Twin Linked but still its not amazing. Also your picking Eldar Scat Bikes as the comparison and very few things in the game can compare to those undercosted piles of cheddar.
It's bs2 twin-linked vs ground targets cause of DFTS that adds a -1 bs modifier.
for the 5% of players that actually use the DFTS supplement
Dakkajet: BEFORE
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the waaagh your jet is firing 18! TL S6 shots at BS3
Dakkajet: AFTER
Buy the extra Supa Shoota and on the Waaagh your jet is firing 12 TL S6 shots at BS2? (I don't know the new rules from flyer supplement)
Well, the new supplement is optional.
With out it you'd still have strafing run so it'd still be bs 3.
Your only really loosing shots. Which does hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bs 3 most of the time.
ok thanks for the heads up
Even then though, the Dakkajet is still a flying Burning pile of garbage. Nobody is really scared of 12 S6 BS3 shots these days. especially when it costs you 130-145 (Flyboss) points on an AV10 platform. Eldar can get 5 Scat bikes for the same price which can put out 20 S6 shots and at a higher BS.
AV10 flyer with BS3 Twin Linked but still its not amazing. Also your picking Eldar Scat Bikes as the comparison and very few things in the game can compare to those undercosted piles of cheddar.
It's bs2 twin-linked vs ground targets cause of DFTS that adds a -1 bs modifier.
for the 5% of players that actually use the DFTS supplement
I concur. DFTS is rarely used and in all honestly over the course of probably 6+ games of using that rule set I can honestly say its as much garbage as everyone complains about and this is with my Dakkajets having a winning reconds in DFTS games.
Mob Rule rewards units with a decent armor save, eg MANZ and anything with 'eavy Armor and either numbers or multiple wounds. This is just Orks 'ard Boyz edition!
How have you been getting that to work? what's the trick to it?
Basically, you have to forego the notion that the Boyz will be cheap, putting them in Trukks while they have armor removes the problems Mob Rule typically gives them. Utilizing MANZ missiles in addition to those 'ard Boyz Trukks provides target saturation. That's what I have concluded the writers intended when wrote this current Dex.
AV10 flyer with BS3 Twin Linked but still its not amazing. Also your picking Eldar Scat Bikes as the comparison and very few things in the game can compare to those undercosted piles of cheddar.
AV10 Flyer with BS3 TL S6 3shot weapons for 130pts. OK since you dont like Scat bike comparison lets do something else. For 130pts I can take 9 Lootas who put out on average 18 S7 shots with longer range and more durable then an AV10 flyer, which when it jinkz (and it will jink) has 9 TL BS1 shots.
Or Against a SM player they can take a Stormtalon for the same price, which is better BS, better AV all around and has 4 TLS6 shots at BS4 (averages almost 4 hits) and with upgrades fires 2 S8 AP3 Krak missiles or 2 S4 blasts.
How about IG?
For 25pts more (or 5 if the ork bought fighter ace) you can get a Vulture Gunship which puts out 20 TL S5 shots and 3 S5 AP4 shots at BS3 Ohh and its AV12/12/10.
Tau?
The horrible Razorshar which for 15pts more is AV11/10/10 BS3 and has 4 S5 shots, 2 Seeker missiles S8 AP3 and a Quad Ion Turret which puts out either 4 S7 AP4 shots OR 1 S8 AP4 large blast.
So again, 130pts for 9 TL S6 shots on a BS1/3 (Jinking, and what not) platform is not scary nor is it cost effective or useful.
Mob Rule rewards units with a decent armor save, eg MANZ and anything with 'eavy Armor and either numbers or multiple wounds. This is just Orks 'ard Boyz edition!
Mob rule on Manz doesn't work nor does it really work on Trukk Boyz. Why? In the shooting phase any unit that has to take a morale test that is below 10 models (IE Manz or Trukk Boyz who got shot at and reduced by 3 or more) fail their Mob rule on a 1,4,5,6 In other words you have a 1/3rd chance to pass that test, and when you do you take D6 hits which on 2+ isn't a big deal but on 4+ (Trukk Boyz) your still losing at least 1 more model on average.
In CC That changes to 1/2 but is still not that good. Of course you could always waste 5pts and buy a bosspole to better your chances of passing your test.
A bosspole is very rarely a waste of 5 points in my mind and certainly not so on Meganobz who dont have to pay to upgrade a model to be eligible to buy one, like Tankbustas for example. You've got roughly a 50% chance to pass that leadership test, then a re-rollable 33% chance to pass it even if you fail at the expense of D6 S4 hits that bounce off your armour 83% of the time. The odds of succeeding increase respectably if you're also in combat, but you shouldn't really be in combat with things you'll lose to anyway and if you are that bosspole won't help much. A MANz bosspole isn't useful every game but it can allow them to cause some real trouble, an exploding Trukk that pins your Meganobz, disallows them from charging and subsequently gets them AP2'd off the board is always unwelcome. It's for units like these that I'm actually glad Mob Rule got changed, it really hurts footsloggers (compared to the old Fearless) but it gives us options for MSU (necessary for the new-at-the-time Maelstrom missions) and allowed our other units to benefit from one of our faction's inherent rules. Note: I really wish Mob Rule was better than it is, but it only really benefited Boyz before.
xlDuke wrote: A bosspole is very rarely a waste of 5 points in my mind and certainly not so on Meganobz who dont have to pay to upgrade a model to be eligible to buy one, like Tankbustas for example. You've got roughly a 50% chance to pass that leadership test, then a re-rollable 33% chance to pass it even if you fail at the expense of D6 S4 hits that bounce off your armour 83% of the time. The odds of succeeding increase respectably if you're also in combat, but you shouldn't really be in combat with things you'll lose to anyway and if you are that bosspole won't help much. A MANz bosspole isn't useful every game but it can allow them to cause some real trouble, an exploding Trukk that pins your Meganobz, disallows them from charging and subsequently gets them AP2'd off the board is always unwelcome. It's for units like these that I'm actually glad Mob Rule got changed, it really hurts footsloggers (compared to the old Fearless) but it gives us options for MSU (necessary for the new-at-the-time Maelstrom missions) and allowed our other units to benefit from one of our faction's inherent rules. Note: I really wish Mob Rule was better than it is, but it only really benefited Boyz before.
I think the problem with Orks at the moment isn't the lack of super cheesy units, it's the nerfing of their basic 'bread and butter' strengths. Most notably, Furious Charge and the Bosspole have been nerfed in a way which makes Orks both more likely to take wounds and more likely to rout after failing Morale tests. The +1 Initiative from the old Furious Charge rules made Orks much more effective against low-mid Initiative armies such as Necrons and Guard.
Da Kommizzar wrote: I dislike that Orkz strike slower than Guardsmen, but *shrug*
It matters more with things like Cron Flyed Ones. And even if your opponent has Guard or Tau which are medicore in CC at best, sometimes you need every single one of that 12-model Trukk squad to count. I'm not saying that Orks should have great Initiative as having I2 is one of the things which makes them Orks. However another thing which makes them Orks is charging at the enemy, and that thing has been made significantly worse with the nerfing of Furious Charge.
the nerfs aren't too bad; it was just never mated to an appropriate adjustment in cost. In fact, the trend has been the opposite.
Things that were auto includes prior were points adjusted upwards to make them less attractive, and things were nerfed as well. But the two sides of those efforts seem to have been completely not in communication with each other.
SDFarsight wrote: and that thing has been made significantly worse with the nerfing of Furious Charge.
Don't you mean nerfing Assault generally?
I don't mind that really, it's more the blunt way that the Ork codex is handled. At first glance it looks great, even cheesy with a whole army of 'ardboy 4+ armour and super-heavy walkers being made standard rather than Forgeworld, but when you get closer it's nerfed. As well as the Furious Charge and Bosspoll that I mentioned earlier, there's also the fact that Mob Rule doesn't work in the same way either. It all looks like a poisoned chalice.
xlDuke wrote: A bosspole is very rarely a waste of 5 points in my mind and certainly not so on Meganobz who dont have to pay to upgrade a model to be eligible to buy one, like Tankbustas for example. You've got roughly a 50% chance to pass that leadership test, then a re-rollable 33% chance to pass it even if you fail at the expense of D6 S4 hits that bounce off your armour 83% of the time. The odds of succeeding increase respectably if you're also in combat, but you shouldn't really be in combat with things you'll lose to anyway and if you are that bosspole won't help much. A MANz bosspole isn't useful every game but it can allow them to cause some real trouble, an exploding Trukk that pins your Meganobz, disallows them from charging and subsequently gets them AP2'd off the board is always unwelcome. It's for units like these that I'm actually glad Mob Rule got changed, it really hurts footsloggers (compared to the old Fearless) but it gives us options for MSU (necessary for the new-at-the-time Maelstrom missions) and allowed our other units to benefit from one of our faction's inherent rules. Note: I really wish Mob Rule was better than it is, but it only really benefited Boyz before.
If you're bringing 3 units of Boyz, 3 units of Elites (Meganobz, Tanbustas), and 2 squads of fast attack (Bikes or stormboyz) you are spending 40pts on Bosspoles which are situational at best. If those units are all under 10 (Most will be) that bosspole is basically equivalent to a rerollable 5+ save. It's not that good and I honestly never use them.
The fact is that GW has fethed the orks in LD while making LD in almost every other army a secondary concern. I honestly can't remember the last time I benefited from forcing my opponent to take a leadership check, on the other hand, my opponents start salivating every time they force me to do a check because 50% of the time I lose 2-3 more boyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldzoggy wrote: Yeah strike last + no saves + low LD is bad for close combat.
They are orks so they should have bad LD They are orks so they should have bad SVs They are orks so they should have bad Initiative They are orks so they should have bad Rules
Basically sums up every argument against orks getting buffs.
We are a Mob CC army. We suck at CC and our units are either Over priced or to weak to really be a Mob for more then turn 1.
The fact that we, a HORDE ARMY, rely on MSU units paints the picture perfectly, we got beaten with the nerf stick to hard and to often.
I actually prefer the MSU style, moving blobs of 30 boyz is really annoying, i wouldn't play a footslogging army even if it was overpowered. Orks in trukks/BWs is how i imagine them anyway.
Can anyone explain why Buzzgob’s Kustom Stompa only costs 300 points in comparison to a regular stompa of 770 points? Orks will be very competitive if all their point costs cut down by half. On the other hand, I don't think I will be that patient to paint up so many orks.
wildger wrote: Can anyone explain why Buzzgob’s Kustom Stompa only costs 300 points in comparison to a regular stompa of 770 points? Orks will be very competitive if all their point costs cut down by half. On the other hand, I don't think I will be that patient to paint up so many orks.
It's a typo, Buzzgob is supposed to get the bare bones stompa for an extra 300pts and has to spend another 400 odd points on upgrades.
To be fair why would anyone ever use his kustom stompa when they could just buy a normal big mek stompa and buzzgob and save 300 points for all the same options. That makes even less sense than discounting his stompa by half. I know people like to say that FW released a statement saying it was a typo but I personally feel that was more due to the outrage of a half priced stompa than anything else.
cranect wrote: To be fair why would anyone ever use his kustom stompa when they could just buy a normal big mek stompa and buzzgob and save 300 points for all the same options. That makes even less sense than discounting his stompa by half. I know people like to say that FW released a statement saying it was a typo but I personally feel that was more due to the outrage of a half priced stompa than anything else.
And who cares honestly? All versions of the Stompa are still utter trash. Seriously, BS2 with Strength D 1 shot weapons? The thing has to shoot 3 times before its statistically going to hit one time. So in a 6 turn game your going to hit twice if your luck is average.
The regular Stompa 770pts for a 12hp AV13 super heavy walker whose best gun usually jams by turn 2.
Nah, you'll get more mileage out of a couple units of killa Kanz for the same price then you will the stompa.
cranect wrote: To be fair why would anyone ever use his kustom stompa when they could just buy a normal big mek stompa and buzzgob and save 300 points for all the same options. That makes even less sense than discounting his stompa by half. I know people like to say that FW released a statement saying it was a typo but I personally feel that was more due to the outrage of a half priced stompa than anything else.
And who cares honestly? All versions of the Stompa are still utter trash. Seriously, BS2 with Strength D 1 shot weapons? The thing has to shoot 3 times before its statistically going to hit one time. So in a 6 turn game your going to hit twice if your luck is average.
The regular Stompa 770pts for a 12hp AV13 super heavy walker whose best gun usually jams by turn 2.
Nah, you'll get more mileage out of a couple units of killa Kanz for the same price then you will the stompa.
I generally agree completely, the Stompa is a terrible model for the points with the current codex Stompa taking the cake for being most terrible. There is however something appealing about a Klawstompa (needs updated rules and currently requires pre-game negotiation) and particularly a Kustom Stompa with two Bursta Kannons, Belly Gun and Deff Arsenal.
cranect wrote: To be fair why would anyone ever use his kustom stompa when they could just buy a normal big mek stompa and buzzgob and save 300 points for all the same options. That makes even less sense than discounting his stompa by half. I know people like to say that FW released a statement saying it was a typo but I personally feel that was more due to the outrage of a half priced stompa than anything else.
And who cares honestly? All versions of the Stompa are still utter trash. Seriously, BS2 with Strength D 1 shot weapons? The thing has to shoot 3 times before its statistically going to hit one time. So in a 6 turn game your going to hit twice if your luck is average.
The regular Stompa 770pts for a 12hp AV13 super heavy walker whose best gun usually jams by turn 2.
Nah, you'll get more mileage out of a couple units of killa Kanz for the same price then you will the stompa.
I generally agree completely, the Stompa is a terrible model for the points with the current codex Stompa taking the cake for being most terrible. There is however something appealing about a Klawstompa (needs updated rules and currently requires pre-game negotiation) and particularly a Kustom Stompa with two Bursta Kannons, Belly Gun and Deff Arsenal.
Yeah, none of the stompas are at all point-efficient, but the klawstompa is cheap and if everything goes right can do some serious damage.
I don't think you can even field a klawstompa as unbound these days. FW never clarifies the rules for klawstompa since they are not even compatible with the 6th edition. The new update of the ork dread mob army list only allow for big mek stompa and Buzzgob's special.
jealous, but also the song of my people. Of course, yours are red so they go fasta 
