Now that we have all the datasheets as well as the point values of all of the units available to Dark Angels, I think it's time to start a 10th edition tactics thread so we can go ahead and sunset the old 9th one. And as I'm very fond of doing, I thought I'd kick us off with a unit tier list. This is going to be fairly exhaustive, too, as I want to discuss every unit available to us, which means both the vanilla Space Marine units as well as the Dark Angels-specific stuff. The purpose of this is to stimulate some constructive discussion about our units and options; at the time of writing these are very much just hot takes, but maybe we can revisit this in future once we've gotten some games (and possibly tournaments) under our belts. This is gonna be a long one, so I'm going to spoiler tag each category: Characters, Units, and Vehicles. Here goes:
CHARACTERS
Spoiler:
Azrael: S Tier: This guy is just about a must-take, and not too expensive for how much he brings. CP is a precious thing in 10th, and he gives more just for being there. Sustained Hits 1 is a great buff for a shooting or melee unit, particularly one with decent volume of attacks, and the 4++ he gives his unit is the cherry on top. Stick him with some Hellblasters and go melt stuff, he's awesome!
Belial: A Tier: Belial has become something of a character assassin, giving his unit Precision on critical hits in melee. Given that he can only lead Terminators, I might suggest sticking him with a Deathwing Command Squad or perhaps some Deathwing Knights (although those are probably a bit too expensive). If you were already planning on bringing a few Deathwing of some kind, he's a good add.
Sammael: B Tier: Sammy's good, and giving an already-fast unit like Black Knights or Outriders Advance & Charge is great, but I'm not entirely sure it's worth his price tag. Then again, mobility is usually king in 40k, so maybe it's worth it.
Ezekiel: B Tier: Ezekiel gives a solid buff to a unit, but his main downside is that there's nothing amazing that he can actually lead. Vanguard Veterans are probably the best choice, and Ezekiel isn't too expensive as an add-on to that unit, so maybe the play is 5 of those plus him in a Razorback.
Asmodai: C Tier: They keep doing my boy dirty. He's certainly cheap enough to maybe be good, but again there isn't anything amazing for him to lead. He could potentially be a decent candidate for a Command Squad as they would benefit well from his rerolls (seeing as how a couple of them can take real melee weapons) but that unit is just too expensive for what it does. Ezekiel is just a better choice most of the time.
Lazarus: B Tier: Fight on death is a strong ability, and it's seen across a number of different armies in the new edition. For that reason, Lazarus probably wants to go with a dedicated melee unit, and that means either Bladeguard or Assault Intercessors (hint: pick the Bladeguard). As he has the Captain keyword, he can even pair with certain other characters to make a strong unit.
Lion El'Jonson: S Tier: He's a Primarch who is stupidly hard to kill and gives out some serious debuffs to the enemy, forcing them to either play at a disadvantage or find a way to neutralize him. He absolutely pays for this utility, but most of the time you'll happily find a way to fit him into your list. It certainly doesn't hurt that he also hits like a truck, either!
Ravenwing Talonmaster: A Tier: Not as nasty as in the previous edition, as he now has half the firepower he had before because Twin-linked. Still a decent tool to have, as he lets nearby Bikes and Speeders ignore cover, useful in a world where weapons generally have less AP than before. Probably don't take more than one anymore though. Actually funnily enough there might be a strange rules loophole that makes running more than one a good play: as a Fly Vehicle, a Talonmaster provides Lone Operative to another Talonmaster, so two or three of these next to each other grant each other immunity to shooting. I expect this to get corrected if it hasn't already been, but for now enjoy the jank!
Deathwing Strikemaster: A Tier: He's a Lieutenant in Terminator Armor, something regular Marines just don't get. He gives the standard Lieutenant unit buff of Lethal Hits to his unit, and on a big brick of Terminators that could actually be scary and make them more dangerous to enemy monsters and vehicles.
Primaris Captain: B Tier: As a unit leader, he's generically “fine”. The ability to pop a stratagem for free and even if it's already been used in the current phase is nice. The issue is that units he can lead have better, more exciting options for leaders.
Captain in Gravis Armor: C Tier: He has the standard captain ability (free strat once per round) but his other ability only benefits him personally and helps him stay alive if his unit gets dirtnapped. He can only join walking Gravis units, and none of those really need him. Could be interesting paired with an Apothecary Biologis leading a brick of Aggressors, but that's a fairly expensive package.
Captain in Phobos Armor: B Tier: He has a redeploy ability, but only for Phobos units. Crucially, it's timed such that you'll know who has the first turn before you pop it, so it can be used offensively or defensively. A neat thing to remember is that Invictor Warsuits have the Phobos keyword, so this could be good if Invictors end up being good.
Captain in Terminator Armor: A Tier: Gives charge rerolls to a Terminator unit he leads, and in Dark Angels the unique Deathwing units can indeed be led by this guy. This combined with the standard Captain free strat ability is great, and I expect to see these lead Deathwing as a nice alternative to Belial.
Captain: C Tier: Same as Primaris Captain, but only leads Firstborn units (Tacticals, Assault, VanVet and Command Squads), and has more weapon options. The relatively lackluster nature of those units means this guy isn't as useful as he could be.
Captain with Jump Pack: B Tier: If Jump Pack Assault Squads or VanVets turn out to be good, this guy will be good, as his ability is pretty good with them. Those units and this character pay a bit of a premium for their jump packs though.
Captain on Bike: B Tier: His buff makes it so a bike unit can advance and still shoot all their guns, which is nice, but they can't charge afterwards, meaning this guy is like a slightly worse Sammael. He is significantly cheaper, though, so might still have some play, particularly in bike-heavy strategies.
Primaris Lieutenant: A Tier: Another very solid buff character, and can pair with a Captain or Chapter Master. Lethal Hits is just a nice ability to add to just about any unit, and lets said unit punch above its weight. Works well with Azrael or Lazarus to further enhance the units they lead.
Lieutenant in Reiver Armor: D Tier: Reivers, even after three editions, still just aren't that good, so adding this guy to them is just throwing good points after bad. Lethal Hits, as mentioned above, is a nice buff, but they just don't have any weapons that are worth buffing.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor: C Tier: Has a bit more flexibility in which Phobos unit he can join, but still doesn't really add anything useful to them (Lethal Hits matters a lot less on the weak weapons carried by Incursors/Infiltrators/Reivers). The shoot and scoot ability is cute and might allow some trick plays.
Lieutenant: C Tier: Oddly the most expensive vanilla Marine Lieutenant. In addition to the standard Lethal Hits, he give the ability for his unit to fall back and still shoot or charge. This could be nice on VanVets or Assault Marines, but Tacticals can already do this and Command Squads are probably too expensive.
Lieutenant with Combi-weapon: D Tier: His weapon is good vs. Tyranids, which is funny but way too specific, and his other abilities just don't add enough for his points.
Primaris Librarian: A Tier: Gives his unit a 4+ Invulnerable Save, which is a great thing to have on a lot of different units. And he can even join a Desolation Squad, which is great.
Librarian in Phobos Armor: B Tier: Grants Stealth and protection from shooting by any enemy outside 12”, which is nice, but he can only give this to Phobos units. Probably best used with Eliminators.
Librarian in Terminator Armor: A Tier: Another great character option for Terminator units. Sustained Hits is a great buff for regular shooty Termies, as they carry Storm Bolters and can take Assault Cannons with lots of shots, so plenty of chances to proc those extra hits. It does work in melee too, of course.
Librarian: C Tier: Same as Primaris Librarian, but can't really join anything you want to give extra durability to. VanVets can take Storm Shields for the same save, and it probably isn't worth spending the points to give it to the other Firstborn units.
Librarian with Jump Pack: B Tier: If you want to run a jump pack melee unit (Assault or VanVet squad), this is possibly the best choice to lead it. Extra AP adds good value to a unit with that kind of attack volume.
Primaris Chaplain: B Tier: Bonuses to wound rolls are pretty strong, this guy is probably a good add for Bladeguard. Assault Intercessors would like this buff too, but I'm not sure it's worth it on them. Fixing a unit that gets Battle-shocked can be good, but some of the Dark Angels detachment's enhancements and stratagems get better when a unit is Battle-shocked, so it's potentially counter-synergistic.
Chaplain in Terminator Armor: A Tier: Has the standard wound buff of all Chaplains, but this model lets you apply mortal wound protection to Termies. Mortal wounds are a weakness for tough expensive models like Termies, so this could be good value to keep them alive. Possibly best on Deathwing Knights, who will REALLY appreciate the mortal wound protection and the +1 to wound.
Chaplain on Bike: S Tier: If you're running bikes, you probably want this model. Devastating Wounds is powerful on all their shooting (even if it's just bolters, you get enough shots to reliably fish for 6's). If you can get a cheeky 6 on a melta shot, that's even better! Only downside is you do have to get pretty close.
Chaplain: C Tier: Same abilities as the Primaris version, but can't attach to anything you need to put these buffs on. Walking VanVets maybe, but there are other buff characters for those.
Chaplain with Jump Pack: C Tier: Putting out mortals is nice, but it's unreliable. +1 to wound is nice to have on VanVets, so this guy might be better if those turn out to be good.
Primaris Techmarine: B Tier: If you run a lot of vehicles, you probably want this model around. Goes full murderhobo if a vehicle dies, which is funny, but you don't bring this guy for his combat. Just keep him near the back and fix vehicles when they get busted.
Techmarine: C Tier: Strangely costs more than the Primaris version, but does have more wargear options. Which you probably won't take, because only the Axe gets better if a vehicle dies. At least do take the servo-harness though; it's literally free extra guns so go nuts.
Astartes Servitors: C Tier: You probably won't bother with these, but attached to a Techmarine they can provide some cheeky firepower. I list these with characters because they are not worth considering without a Techmarine (and probably still not even with one).
Primaris Company Champion: B Tier: Yet another good leader choice for Bladeguard; probably not worth it with anything else (maybe Assault Intercessors?). Can potentially assassinate enemy characters in melee thanks to Precision on his weapon.
Primaris Apothecary: A Tier: Resurrecting models can be really strong; probably best on units like Hellblasters or Desolation Squads. Can combo well with Hellblasters to bring them back when their Hazardous tests blow them up.
Apothecary Biologis: C Tier: Probably only truly useful on Aggressors, as they actually have meaningful melee to proc his extra OC. Lethal Hits is a good buff to have on those, as it lets them punch up into stronger enemies a bit, although they do already have Twin-linked on their fists and therefore don't need the buff as much (the guns don't mind it though).
Primaris Ancient: C Tier: Probably not worth the points, but more testing is needed as increasing OC could be very powerful, especially if it still works while the unit is Battle-shocked (except as Dark Angels, we already have OC1 when Battle-shocked).
Bladeguard Ancient: A Tier: If you are running Bladeguard, this guy should definitely be considered, as more attacks on those is always welcome. He can even combo with a Captain, Chapter Master, or Lieutenant, and might pair well with Lazarus.
Ancient in Terminator Armor: D Tier: He gives +1 to hit for units under starting strength, which doesn't always matter as most Terminator units have Fury of the First (or the equivalent ability baked into another ability). +1 to wound is nice though, and if you're not shooting/fighting the Oath of Moment target it matters more. I personally don't think he's worth the points; I'd rather just invest in a Deathwing Command Squad intead.
Judiciar: S Tier: Of all the characters that can join Bladeguard, this guy might be the best. Fights First is an incredibly powerful ability, making a unit with it difficult to come to grips with in melee, as to hit them you first have to survive being hit by them. Can also murk enemy characters with his own weapon, and gets more attacks each time he does so.
UNITS
Spoiler:
Intercessor Squad: B Tier: Possibly our best Battleline option, if for no other reason than “sticky objectives”. They won't win games by themselves and probably don't warrant an attached character, but they can hold take and hold ground.
Infernus Squad: B Tier: Auto-hitting weapons that force a Battle-shock test could be a good tool to have in our back pocket. They'll also clear hordes of gribblies reasonably efficiently.
Assault Intercessors: A Tier: The other candidate for best Battleline; unlike normal Intercessors these are better for taking objectives away from the enemy, whereas the ones with rifles are better for holding onto ones you already have. Always take a weapon upgrade on the sarge, and if you want a big unit you might consider some kind of buff character.
Heavy Intercessors: A Tier: No sticky objectives, but these are really hard to shift with small arms and their own guns aren't terrible for the price. Don't bother with a buff character.
Infiltrators: A Tier: Guns are underwhelming, but the ability to infiltrate and prevent Deep Strikes within 12” of them is a nice utility, especially against armies like Daemons. And they're cheaper than Intercessors!
Incursors: A Tier: Taken in small units these guys provide some good utility. The haywire mine is a way to do some cheeky mortal wounds, especially to tough vehicles. They don't infiltrate anymore, but they do get the Scout rule for a pregame move. A good way to buff the rest of your army's shooting against a key enemy unit.
Tactical Squad: C Tier: Cheaper per model than Intercessors and they get the option to take better weapons (which you definitely should), but you are stuck with 10 dudes. Being able to fall back, shoot, and charge is very nice, but you aren't going to charge with tacticals, like, ever.
Scout Squad: B Tier: You don't bring these for the firepower; you bring them for the utility they bring. Personally I'd skip these in favor of the snipers, but taking a unit of 5 in a Storm could be fun.
Scout Sniper Squad: A Tier: One of the better character hunter units in the game, probably better point for point than even Eliminators.
Bladeguard Veteran Squad: S Tier: Probably one of the best melee units in the game for their cost, and they have all kinds of good options for leaders.
Command Squad: D Tier: This unit is straight cabbage. They cost almost as much per model as Bladeguard, but just aren't as killy despite two of them having access to the good melee weapon options from the Astartes arsenal. The Apothecary resurrecting one every turn is cool until you realise the enemy can just easily wipe the unit before he gets a chance.
Vanguard Veteran Squad: B Tier: These models are fine. Not great, just fine. They do make a good retinue for Ezekiel, who makes them capable of turning hordes into fine pink mist. Anything beefier than that (like Terminators or Custodes) and they'll bounce hard.
Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs: C Tier: Less choices for attached characters, but definitely more mobile than their footslogging brethren. Not sure these are worth it over Assault Squads, honestly. Their weapons are a little better, but they cost a bit more, and they lack the Hammer of Wrath ability.
Sternguard Veteran Squad: A Tier: These guys are nice to have when facing enemy infantry, especially if they can get rerolls to wound. Not honestly sure whether the bolt rifles or combi weapons are better; both have Devastating Wounds, but the combis have Anti-Infantry 4+ and thus will proc them more. The bolt rifles have more shots (in half range), though, and thus are more generally useful (e.g. against non-infantry targets).
Reiver Squad: C Tier: This unit is clearly intended to gank characters in squads, but their weapons aren't that scary to most characters in the game. Forcing an enemy unit they charge to take a Battle-shock test (at -1 leadership) is potentially useful, so I won't write these off completely.
Aggressor Squad: B Tier: These guys are tough and with twin-linked on their fists can punch above their weight class, but you do pay for that utility. I don't think these are bad, but I'm not sure they're as good as terminators either.
Terminator Assault Squad: A Tier: Dark Angels love their Terminators, and the Teleport Homer can be a nice piece of tech to let this unit appear in some strange spots during your opponent's turn. I'd stick with the hammers and shields; the extra wound will come in handy when facing D3 weapons.
Terminator Squad: A Tier: Terminators are great, and the shooty variant are great all-around models who are tough and can shoot decently hard. Fury of the First gives great utility to avoid pesky hit/wound modifiers.
Relic Terminator Squad: B Tier: Not terrible, but the options on the regular ones or especially the Deathwing ones are better. At least they are slightly cheaper.
Deathwing Command Squad: S Tier: These guys, quite simply, rule. Take the full brick of 10 for best results; that Apothecary bringing dudes back is more viable in a unit like this, as unlike the power-armored squad this unit is very non-trivial to wipe out. Put a character in for maximum usefulness.
Deathwing Terminator Squad: A Tier: Sort of a hybrid of the regular and Assault Terminator units, and can mix and match their wargear. Kind of a fun way to get Fury of the First on Assault Terminators, as the Deathwing rule is literally the same.
Deathwing Knights: A Tier: Very expensive at 47 points per model, but the damage reduction and large number of wounds makes them very annoying to shift, and they have enough attacks at 3 damage that they'll pretty much murder anything you point them at. Definitely give them some kind of buff character if possible.
Centurion Assault Squad: C Tier: Expensive, and not as effective as they should be at killing monsters and vehicles (too few attacks, even with Sustained Hits 2). I'd personally rather just have Terminators with Chainfists.
Centurion Devastator Squad: C Tier: Like the Assault Centurions above, they are tough but just don't get enough firepower to reliably shift a vehicle despite seeming being optimized for that. Too expensive for what you get.
Assault Squad: B Tier: Footslogging Assault Marines are actually interesting. What a world we live in! Given their unit ability, I think keeping all chainswords is the way to go, with perhaps a good weapon on the sergeant and maybe a couple of Eviscerators. Take as many plasma pistols as you are allowed though, and give that sarge a shield!
Assault Squad with Jump Packs: B Tier: I love their Hammer of Wrath rule in general. Take those Eviscerators! Given the relative cost of the units, I think these might actually be better than jump pack VanVets.
Outrider Squad: B Tier: More expensive than regular Bikers, but more durable and better in melee (and better boltguns but nothing to write home about). Can bring along an Invader ATV in the unit for some real ranged firepower if desired.
Invader ATV: C Tier: Expensive, but it can bring decent firepower. It can also shoot back if someone shoots at a friendly mounted unit, but one ATV isn't really that powerful (and you can't take units of more than 1).
Bike Squad: A Tier: These guys are less durable than Outriders, but they are significantly cheaper and can take real ranged weapons (like plasma and melta). Can also bring along an Attack Bike, which is probably a good idea.
Scout Bike Squad: B Tier: Squishier than normal Bikes with only a 4+ save, but since every guy can take an Astartes Grenade Launcher, you should do that. They cost nearly the same as regular bikes and can't take other special weapons, so probably not quite as good.
Attack Bikes: A Tier: Has the same ability to reactive fire as Invader ATVs, but since you can bring 3 Attack Bikes the ability is much stronger on them. They are cheaper too.
Ravenwing Command Squad: B Tier: Probably too expensive for what you get, but not horribly so. Might be a decent retinue for a character like Sammael. Always bring the full 6 models; you'll need the extra bullet catchers.
Ravenwing Black Knights: S Tier: These guys get Anti-Monster and Anti-Vehicle when they charge, 'nuff said. Their weapons look weak with only 1 damage, but if you have a way to give them rerolls or other buffs they can still punch above their weight, and their shooting isn't too bad either.
Suppressor Squad: C Tier: These are a disruption unit more than a damage-dealing unit, but they aren't durable enough for the cost, and their effect isn't all that strong.
Inceptors: B Tier: These guys have the ability to get close to the enemy on their deep strikes, at the cost of being able to charge. Which is fine, because these guys would rather be shooting than fighting anyways. They can mess with your opponent's screening plans though.
Hellblaster Squad: S Tier: The Azrael Hellblaster Brick is back, baby! Seriously, put Azrael with a big unit of these bastards; he'll make them extra nasty. Maybe add a Primaris Apothecary to resurrect them when they die, too.
Eliminator Squad: B Tier: Sitting still and getting Devastating Wounds is pretty spicy on either of their weapons. I think the Las Fusils are probably better, as Dev Wounds lets them threaten even higher toughness targets, and you have Sniper Scouts for dealing with pesky characters.
Eradicator Squad: A Tier: These are a very good tool for dealing with higher Toughness targets, as they get full rerolls of hits, wounds, and damage against monsters and vehicles. They do have to get danger close to get full effect from their weapons though, so if they whiff they are most likely dead.
Devastator Squad: B Tier: These guys can be equipped with a variety of weapons to fulfill various roles, but are probably best used for anti-tank with Lascannons or Grav-cannons. They can ignore cover if they sit still, which is something they want to do anyway since they have Heavy weapons.
Desolation Squad: S Tier: Some of the best indirect shooting in the entire game. You definitely want some of these.
VEHICLES
Spoiler:
Invictor Tactical Warsuit: B Tier: Good value if you run a lot of Phobos units, but as Dark Angels we'd probably prefer more bikes and Terminators. Being able to get extra shooting when our Phobos buddies get shot is decent value, and the redeploy from the Phobos Captain is very nice on these.
Dreadnought: D Tier: The classic box dread is, unfortunately, trash at its price point. Almost any vehicle will do the same job better.
Contemptor Dreadnought: C Tier: Same problems as the box dread, but at least this thing gets 2 lives 5 out of 6 games. At its cost, it's gonna be frustrating when it fails to get back up though.
Ironclad Dreadnought: C Tier: Oddly it's cheaper than the box dread, but it's better in almost every way. Still not very good, mind you, but not terrible.
Redemptor Dreadnought: B Tier: Probably overcosted, but it's decently tough with its damage reduction. Best used as a mid-table bully that can shoot decently hard with the plasma and then charge if something gets close.
Brutalis Dreadnought: B Tier: Also overcosted, but hits like a freight train. At its cost, always take the multimeltas over the heavy bolters, and probably always take the talons.
Ballistus Dreadnought: A Tier: Priced to move, and has some of the best long-range firepower in our arsenal. Definitely worth a look as a source of anti-tank.
Storm Speeder Hailstrike: B Tier: With the AP of a lot of weapons reduced across the board, the ability to give other Astartes units increased AP against a hard target has significant value. The vehicle's own firepower is somewhat mediocre, however, except against squishy targets.
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike: A Tier: This vehicle has decent firepower vs. lighter vehicles, and its ability lets other units get +1 to wound something it shoots. This could be very key for taking down big targets like Knights.
Storm Speeder Hammerstrike: B Tier: This vehicle is an absolute menace to light vehicles. Its ability removes cover from an enemy unit hit by its weapons, which is slightly underwhelming compared to the other Storm Speeder types.
Land Speeder: C Tier: Expensive for what you get; it does make other units in your army with Blast weapons hit better and ignore cover against a single target (great for Whirlwinds or Desolation Squads). If you run a fair amount of indirect stuff, grab one or two of these.
Land Speeder Tornado: A Tier: Expensive, but its strafe ability is great for pumping out a few cheeky mortal wounds to a tougher squad. Grab an Assault Cannon and Multimelta for some decent firepower too.
Land Speeder Typhoon: A Tier: The “shoot and scoot” ability it has is one of the most annoying rules in the entire game; just ask anyone who has faced Aeldari or Tau in the past. Abuse it!
Ravenwing Darkshroud: A Tier: This unit will help keep some of your expensive stuff alive; very useful for bikes, particularly the more expensive ones like a Ravenwing Command Squad.
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance: A Tier: Has the “shoot back” thing that Attack Bikes/Invader ATVs have, and it's actually scary from this vehicle. It still might be overcosted, but at the very least it'll draw fire away from your bikes because your opponent won't want to give you a free strong shooting attack.
Thunderfire Cannon: A Tier: At first glance these look way too expensive for the shooting they put out, but the Tremor Shells ability is worth every point.
Firestrike Servo-turrets: B Tier: Their guns are good, and firing Overwatch on 4's is pretty decent. Not sure they are worth the points, but probably worth a try in some lists.
Hunter: C Tier: They only get one shot, but against airborne targets it's almost always going to dump a pile of mortal wounds on them. Can be a great tool to soften up tougher flying targets like certain aircraft.
Stalker: C Tier: Like the Hunter, it's best against flying enemies, but it has enough volume of fire to be sort of okay against other stuff. Can really get spicy with Overwatch too.
Whirlwind: B Tier: Our other source of indirect firepower. Not as good as Desolation Marines, but can cause Battle-shock, which could be nasty if applied to an enemy unit on a home objective.
Predator Destructor: B Tier: This thing can do mean things to enemy infantry, as it has decent volume of 2 and 3 damage attacks, that get better AP when targeting Infantry.
Predator Annihilator: C Tier: This is the anti-big stuff Predator, and its ability is much less helpful than the Destructor's.
Gladiator Lancer: A Tier: This is what the Predator Annihilator wants to be. It actually has a good chance of just deleting an enemy tank in one shooting attack.
Gladiator Reaper: A Tier: This is one of the best anti-infantry platforms we have access to. The combination of Twin-linked, Sustained Hits 2 (when targeting Infantry), and Devastating Wounds on its main gun is just nasty.
Gladiator Valiant: B Tier: Decent at picking off lighter vehicles and monsters, generally I'd rather have a Lancer for that as it's cheaper. This vehicle has the potential to spike higher damage than the Lancer though.
Vindicator: B Tier: This tank is good and its ability to fire into a unit in melee with it despite its gun having Blast is pretty cool, but it is overcosted. Its damage is pretty swingy into big targets too, but generally decent.
Land Raider: A Tier: The Assault Ramp ability is absolutely money in the bank for units like Terminators or Aggressors, giving them a massive threat range. It certainly doesn't hurt that it also packs decent anti-tank punch with 4 Lascannon shots.
Land Raider Crusader: B Tier: 16 transport slots is kind of an awkward number to fill, although 6 Aggressors with a Captain and Apothecary Biologis can do it. The guns will shred lightly-armored infantry targets, but will struggle hard against anything bigger or with a decent save.
Land Raider Redeemer: A Tier: Not only does this thing have decent transport capacity, but it can be an absolute menace with its strong auto-hitting flame weapons on Overwatch.
Repulsor: A Tier: For its cost, this thing is absolutely GODLIKE! It's not as sturdy as a Land Raider as it lacks the 2+ save, but it has decent weapons overall, and the ability for a unit being charged to just jump inside can be useful.
Repulsor Executioner: B Tier: Its main gun is legit powerful, but I'm not sure it's worth the points, and it can't tranport that many models. Its ability makes it good for finishing off models like Knights that are already hurt.
Rhino: B Tier: The classic metal bawks is okay enough for its cost; what holds it back is that there's nothing stupendous we want to put in it. Maybe that big squad of footslogging VanVets with Ezekiel. If you want to make use of its Firing Deck, stick some Devastators with Grav Cannons in it and drive it to the middle of the table.
Razorback: B Tier: 6 is not a great number for transports, although that does get you a unit of 5 of something plus a character if you want. The Fire Support rule could be useful for a number of units.
Impulsor: C Tier: Not a bad unit on its own, but I'm not sure what you want to put in it. Perhaps a 5-man unit of Hellblasters, as you can advance the transport and then disembark. Maybe a squad of Intercessors since you can potentially flip a lightly-guarded objective that your opponent didn't think you could reach.
Drop Pod: A Tier: A full-on Drop Pod Assault list could be fun, although you are limited in what can go in one (at least Hellblasters and other Primaris guys can ride in them now). Maybe just three or so of them as a nasty first wave, followed by the rest of your army. Will need to test at some point.
Land Speeder Storm: A Tier: Putting a unit of Scouts inside for some drive-bys could be good against light infantry. Or put a squad specced for melee in and give them good threat range, although any Scout melee is going to be limited in effectiveness.
Stormhawk Interceptor: B Tier: If flying things become a popular part of the meta, these could be very useful. Otherwise, they are just a decent anti-infantry platform that can optionally take a couple of anti-tank weapons (that are only good against lighter vehicles.
Stormtalon Gunship: B Tier: This is the ground attack version of the Stormhawk, and it's probably better most of the time despite costing a little bit more.
Stormraven Gunship: C Tier: The flying brick is still a bit expensive, especially once you fill it with stuff. If you put it in hover, it will get focused down and killed, but if you run it like a normal aircraft, you won't be unloading the contents most likely until turn 3. Perhaps there is a way to make it work, and its firepower is decent.
Ravenwing Dark Talon: C Tier: It has decent guns, but it's way too expensive.
Nephilim Jetfighter: C Tier: Also too expensive despite having good weapons.
Hammerfall Bunker: C Tier: Probably terrain-dependent, and overpriced, but putting 6 Heavy Bolter shots into your opponent's units on their turn could be funny at least.
Not a lot of stuff is D Tier; there just isn't a lot of total garbage, and that's saying something for a roster as deep as Marines. A lot of C-tier stuff is fairly niche and will get frozen out by the better stuff though. As far as detachments, I think the Gladius is very powerful, but the Unforgiven Task Force has some interesting tech as well. Probably different playstyles for each detachment, and some units might be better or worse in each.
tneva82 wrote: For impulsor helllblasters. And don't come out. Shoot with firing deck. Mw'sto impulsor over dead helllblasters.
I have heard of doing this as a cheap trick to battle-shock a unit in order to proc some of the cool effects from the various Enhancements and Stratagems in the Unforgiven detachment, since when a transport dies the unit inside is automatically Battle-shocked.
Thanks for taking the time to get this one started Zerg!
I played a 2000 point game yesterday - my first 10th Ed game. I took a grab-bag of units to get a feel.
Azrael with a ten-man Hellblaster Squad and a Primaris Apothecary took out a Vindicator on Turn 1, with Oath of Moment helping overcome the higher toughness of vehicles compared to 8th and 9th. I also rolled five 1s on the Hazardous check and lost half the squad in that volley. The rest of the squad got shot off the board the next turn, although Azrael was left standing. Off to a good start!
Belial with a squad of Deathwing Knights turned the tide of the game, rolling several enemy squads and characters along the way. They even took down a Predator (Oaths helps). They are not amazing against tanks anymore, but when they get a hit through it counts.
A squadron of Ravenwing Black Knights did great work. They even chipped some wounds off a tank in melee to help out the Deathwing Knights.
I used an Unforgiven detachment. I never failed a Battleshock test, but there was a point in Turn 3 when I had three under-half squads on objectives. With Grim Resolve I didn't have to worry about Battleshock and scoring, so it could be impactful.
I used Grim Retribution once, but its quite niche since its after the enemy's shots have been resolved.
Azrael was a beat-stick in melee, and his shooting against infantry was also strong.
Next I will run Belial with a Deathwing Command Squad and some Deathwing Knights, supported by some guns.
tneva82 wrote: For impulsor helllblasters. And don't come out. Shoot with firing deck. Mw'sto impulsor over dead helllblasters.
I have heard of doing this as a cheap trick to battle-shock a unit in order to proc some of the cool effects from the various Enhancements and Stratagems in the Unforgiven detachment, since when a transport dies the unit inside is automatically Battle-shocked.
Hmm didn't think that(da isn't my marine faction). More of keep Hellblasters alive shooting as many times as possible.
Hellblaster that doesn't die to hazardous is hellblaster that can shoot next turn 3mw on #mpulsor is less of issue for me than dead hellalaster.
Thanks for the game summary TTB! Sounds like Deathwing are gonna come out swinging, especially with Oaths of Moment helping out. I actually theorycrafted a Ravenwing list a little earlier, haven't had a chance to play a game of 10th just yet:
The list:
Unforgiven Task Force
Sammael (warlord)
6-man Ravenwing Command Squad (Sammy goes here)
6 Bikes + Attack Bike: 2x Meltagun, Multimelta on AB, Storm Bolter on Sarge
Chaplain on Bike: Stubborn Tenacity enhancement (goes with Bikes above)
6 Ravenwing Black Knights
Captain on Bike: Relic Weapon, Relic Shield, Heavenfall Blade enhancement (goes with Black Knights)
6 Outriders + Invader ATV w/Multimelta
3 Attack Bikes: 3x Multimelta
3 Bikes: 2x Meltagun, Combi-weapon on Sarge
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance
Land Speeder Tornado: Multimelta, Assault Cannon
Land Speeder Tornado: Multimelta, Assault Cannon
1995 points
Belial with a squad of Deathwing Knights turned the tide of the game, rolling several enemy squads and characters along the way. They even took down a Predator (Oaths helps). They are not amazing against tanks anymore, but when they get a hit through it counts.
Curious whether you ran the Deathwing Knights as a squad of 10 or 5 was enough?
Played my first two games over the weekend; 2000 points DA vs BA. I used the Gladius Detachment and my opponent used the BA Detachment.
Azrael
Primaris Librarian with Bolter Discipline enhancement
Primaris Lieutenant
2 x 5 Infiltrators
2 x 3 Inceptors (Plasma)
2 x 3 Eradicators
1 x 10 Desolators
1 x 5 DW Knights
1 x 1 Land Raider
1 x 10 Hellblasters
Game 1 could be renamed 'Desolators Dominate'. I went first and the 10 Desolators aided by Bolter Discipline, Dev. Doctrine, and Oath of Moment eliminated 10 JPDC Marines leaving Lemartes alone. Turn 2 had the Desolators pick up 10 Sanguinary Guard leaving Dante alone. We called the game.
Game 2 was closer after my opponent swapped out the two expensive units for Impulsors with assault styled infantry. A few takeaways pertaining to 10th edition rules.
-Land Raider can get a cover save; combine with Armor of Contempt (-1 AP) and it was fairly durable.
-Overwatch. I was able to fire overwatch against units I could not see via indirect fire. Not sure if the rule worked this way in 9th, but the overwatch caveats are (1) target within 24" and (2) unit must be eligible to shoot. Desolators could fire indirect. Clearly, the shooting is not as effective but it still throws a lot of firepower downrange. The Blast keyword is big. A 10 strong unit shooting at a 10 strong unit adds 20 shots because of Blast keyword. 10d3 + 20 Castellan shots and 10d6 (Frag d6+1) + 10 + 20 shots. *Of note*. With Oath of Moment and Bolter Discipline, this unit takes a lot of time to fire; so many dice to roll/reroll and add up all the extra hits!
-DW Knights -1 damage and 4 wounds were very significant in game 2. They utilized Rapid Ingress and ultimately destroyed
5 Death Company
1 Techmarine
5 Infiltrators
1 Impulsor
On paper, I was not impressed with the AP1, but the number of attacks really offset the AP.
I need more games with the Hellblasters as I felt I did not play them very well. I attached Azrael and Primaris LT to them. I didn't get to use them in game 1 and they felt wasted in game 2.
interesting games and looking foward to playing more.
Belial with a squad of Deathwing Knights turned the tide of the game, rolling several enemy squads and characters along the way. They even took down a Predator (Oaths helps). They are not amazing against tanks anymore, but when they get a hit through it counts.
Curious whether you ran the Deathwing Knights as a squad of 10 or 5 was enough?
I ran the Deathwing Knights as a five-man squad with Belial attached. I had a Land Raider Crusader in the list as their ride, but once I saw the board, mission and opponent I opted to Deep Strike them.
A squad of ten would be a huge investment - almost 25% of the list. The five-man squad did great work, but one failed 9" charge out of Deepstrike and they are just sitting around for two turns. Their low AP means that enemy Terminators etc will just pop "Armour of Contempt" to weather the Maces. I avoided my opponent's Redemptors, which I would not have done in 9th. I am going to keep working with them, though, because they can bull through the enemy's backline and not have to worry about Battleshock when they take an objective.
Rapid Ingress is a great utility stratagem and greatly helped me weigh the option of a 9" charge from Deep Strike.
As it is at the end of your opponent's movement phase, you have clear vision of potential threats and where you can expect your unit nees to go. This had my DW Knights clean up a flank in my second game.
Game 1 could be renamed 'Desolators Dominate'. I went first and the 10 Desolators aided by Bolter Discipline, Dev. Doctrine, and Oath of Moment eliminated 10 JPDC Marines leaving Lemartes alone. Turn 2 had the Desolators pick up 10 Sanguinary Guard leaving Dante alone. We called the game.
Once you play Desolators, you could take any chapter and it will be efficient. So many rules stacking and then blast pushes them over.
Those will be the first units to get rules adjustment and it will be Inceptors 2.0 all over again.
I would be interested in your experiences without them if you ever get the chance.
Game 1 could be renamed 'Desolators Dominate'. I went first and the 10 Desolators aided by Bolter Discipline, Dev. Doctrine, and Oath of Moment eliminated 10 JPDC Marines leaving Lemartes alone. Turn 2 had the Desolators pick up 10 Sanguinary Guard leaving Dante alone. We called the game.
Once you play Desolators, you could take any chapter and it will be efficient. So many rules stacking and then blast pushes them over.
Those will be the first units to get rules adjustment and it will be Inceptors 2.0 all over again.
I would be interested in your experiences without them if you ever get the chance.
Game 2 was a vastly different game as my opponent swapped the expensive units out for MSU and Impulsors. Desolation squad had less impact as a result. The unit plays very well into those larger squads and Oath of the Moment really shines against big expensive units.
Desolation squads may well be adjusted but it took my opponent one game to work around their strengths. IE: Don't go out and buy 30 of them....
Basically the list consisted of The Lion, the full Deathwing Command Squad with Belial and a Strikemaster attached, 2 full Desolation Squads, 3 Whirlwinds, and some scouts as filler. To me, this list really puts an exclamation point on the fact that indirect fire is a bit too strong in 10th, and that Desolation Marines are too cheap. But then, nearly everything in Aeldari is too cheap for what it does, and they had a lot more top finishes. I sure hope lists like this don't become the norm for us; it just doesn't feel like Dark Angels.
As expected, indirect stuff got nerfed across the board. Our Desolation Squads went up 50 points per 5 guys, and Whirlwinds went up by 25 (they are 150 now). Not unexpected and probably good for the health of the game. On the bright side, maybe it'll be a little more viable for us to play a list that looks a little more like Dark Angels and less like Astra Militarum with all the artillery.
It's not a perfect representation of Dark Angels currently as the event was not using the latest balance changes (so he still had cheap Desolators, but only 10 of them so...eh). Seems that Hellblasters with Azrael are indeed back on the menu, and I'm going to assume the Primaris Apothecary goes with them also to bring them back. I was pretty happy to see a couple of units of Devastators as well; they have some play into the vehicle-heavy lists like Knights.
Still kind of sad we haven't seen any kind of Ravenwing build do well. They're probably getting frozen out by all the indirect stuff in the game, or something. Damn shame, as I love our bikers.
I have ten real games so far, including a local tournament (40+ players). I am enjoying my Dark Angels! I have, however, moved away from the Unforgiven Detachment and adopted the Gladius Taskforce. I have found that the Unforgiven Stratagems a just a little too situational for my likes, and they don't have the Honour the Chapter Stratagem. Doctrines are just better than Grim Resolve.
Some takeaways:
The Azrael, Primaris Apothecary and a ten Hellblaster unit can do some work, but it has a big target painted on it! Against Space Marines it can deal out some real damage, but it is also a prime Oath of Moment target. Plasma has been reigned in, so I am finding that targets that they would have melted in 8th and 9th Editions are surviving. Vehicles and Dreads are quite resilient against them (Redemptors have given them fits). I have parked them for a bit, but I am not giving up on them.
Ravenwing Black Knights and Ravenwing Command Squads can also do some work, but they also miss old Plasma. I am finding them over-priced, but they can play the mission well. Sammael is fine, and having Sammy with a Ravenwing Command Squad plus a Talonmaster nearby is an expensive but flexible addition to a Greenwing army. Even a single Black Knights Squadron can be a good addition to play the mission or pick off vulnerable units.
At the same time, I am not loving full Ravenwing. The "nerf" to Melta and Ravenwing really hurts against some opponents (any with tanks/dreads/big monsters/Knights). Maybe I need to run it a few more times.
Deathwing Knights are doing real work for me. They are one reason why I have switched to Gladius. They already have Damage Reduction. They suffer from low AP, but in a Gladius Detachment they have access to Honour the Chapter. When they get a charge off they can now do some damage to Dreads, Monsters and Vehicles. I have been running them with a Captain in Terminator Armour to put them in Assault Doctrine every turn to then be able to get the AP bonus from Honour the Chapter. Last week they cleared out a Terminator Squad at the centre of the board, and this week they took down three Custodes Squads with attached Leaders along with Dawn Eagle Jetbikes. Just one extra AP can make all the difference.
I was running Belial for a while, but I find the Captain in Terminator Armour much more useful. In a CP-starved game the ability to have an in-built Charge re-roll plus Rites of Battle is just too good to pass up. Attached to a Deathwing Knights squad, they been killing everything anyway so Precision has not been coming up.
The Lion is very good. He is quite survivable I took him in the tournament (I went 2-1) and he was really effective. He is somewhat "one-note", but he plays that note very well. Put some Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors around him for protection from shooting and he can take and hold an objective against pretty much anything. Over three games, he killed: two Redemptors, a Terminator Squad, two (wounded) Rubric Marines squads with leaders and two beefy Ork mobs. All the while taking objectives and scoring Primary. He is an investment, but I think he is worth it if you build around him.
Good to hear you've been having some success with DA. I have yet to play a game of 10th, but my local play group is starting an escalation league so I should be able to get some games in. Regarding the Hellblaster brick, it's no longer an anti-tank unit, but more of an anti-Elite unit; good for harassing 2W stuff like other Marines, and it can plink away at bigger stuff if needed with Oath of Moment. Agree that the Gladius is just straight up better than the Unforgiven detachment, as its strats are just pretty much always good, and Doctrines seem like they should be game-defining.
For mission play, is there any situation where Black Knights are better than Inceptors? That ability to drop in 3 inches away seems really clutch for mission play, and bikes just can't really do that unless your opponent really messes up.
One list idea I've been considering is a double big brick kind of like Custodes sometimes run, with one 10-man unit of Deathwing Knights, and a 10-man Deathwing Command Squad. Attach characters to each as appropriate (maybe a Strikemaster with Bolter Discipline with the DWCS, and a Terminator Captain in the Knights?), and then fill in the rest of the points with The Lion and some small units for mission/objective play.
I think that Inceptors will almost always be a good addition to any Dark Angel (or Space Marine) army. They do occupy a somewhat similar role as Ravenwing Black Knights: mobile firepower and Secondary/Mission play. The ability of Inceptors to drop in just outside 3" can be clutch to achieve certain Tactical Objectives since they are so hard to screen out. They are also great at removing Lone Operative models that are holding objectives since they have enough firepower for those kinds of targets. Ravenwing Black Knights have a 5++, though, which means that they generally survive longer.
I have tried the ten-man Deathwing Command Squad brick and it is very hard to shift. Oath of Moment armies, though, can put some damage into it. A list with two such bricks needs some little units to achieve many of the Tactical Objectives and will also need some dedicated anti-tank.
Looking at my notes regarding games (when I took them), I can provide the following thumbnail summaries of some of my games:
Vital Ground vs Tyranids. I went with a First-Borne theme to try out some units and see how the Unforgiven Strats function. I had a ten-man Deathwing Command Squad led by Belial, a five-man Deathwing Terminator Squad, two Tactical Squads, a ten-man Devastator Squad, two Predators, a Whirlwind and a Landspeeder. I took the big Devastator Squad to see how Grim Retribution worked. My opponent had a number of really big bugs and a six Zoanthropes plus little gribblies. I placed all my Terminators in Reserve, which opened my me up to getting knocked off the objectives (including my own). His little stuff really limited by Deep Strike options, and even with Rapid Ingress in the Deathwing Command Squad my heavy-hitters were out of position. I killed lots of things, but I was getting blanked on Primary. The Deathwing Command Squad with Belial, though, killed everything it could reach and stayed around due to Unbreakable Lines when he charged in two big bigs. A disastrous game, but lots of fun and I learned plenty. Grim Retribution didn't really amount to much. I should have started the Deathwing Command Squad on the board and marched up the centre (Dawn of War Deployment). The Tactical Squads hung around for a few turns, but they were totally outmatched by the big bugs coming at them.
Priority Targets vs Tyranids. Again with the big bugs...This time, however, with some prior notice I was letting our TO see some Legends of the Horus Heresy models in action ahead of our tourney where he was going to allow them. I had another full Deathwing Command Squad led by a Librarian, a five-man Deathwing Knights squad, two Tactical Squads, a Landspeeder, a Relic Contemptor Dread, a Deredeo Dreadnought and a Falchion. This was a wild game. I was able to roll 6s on Wound Rolls enough times for the Falchion to lift all his big bugs over the game, while the Deredeo was a more reliable shooter than a Redemptor. My Deathwing Command Squad was let down by their leader, though, since my opponent had a Pschophage. I had used my Watcher in the Dark already when his anti-Psyker got into combat with my Deathwing. My Librarian meant that all of the Psychophage's melee attacks were causing Devastating Wounds on a 2+...Not pretty. My Deathwing Knights did eventually fall on one one flank but they did lots of damage and cleared the road for a 30K style Tactical Squad following them and taking an objective. I lost by two points, though, as he had a Lictor on a distant target and I had no means of getting to it. The Falchion was good fun (for me at least), but what a points sink.
Supply Drop vs Space Wolves. I went back to my roots with a ten-man Hellblaster Squad led by Azrael and a Primaris Apothecary, a ten-man Deathwing Command Squad with Belial, two Bike Squadrons, a Talonmaster, Infiltrators and a six-man Eradicator Squad (trying out Grim Retribution again). The Space Wolves had Assault Intercessors, Terminators, Outriders, a Redemptor, Longfangs and a Razorback (and some other stuff). The big Hellblaster squad dealt plenty of damage and hung around for the game, although they were worn down by firepower/Oath of Moment. The Deathwing Command Squad pushed into his deployment zone, controlling the centre as they went. The Eradicators killed the Redemptor and then ineffectually chased the Terminators around - but kept them busy nonetheless. A win for the Dark Angels.
Tourney Game 1. The TO was still good with Legends after our game, so I decided to let the Falchion roll again. My Lion also finally arrived the week before the tourney. So half of my army was in two models. I added Azrael with the big Hellblaster Squad for good measure. With my few remaining points I added two small Bladeguard Squads, two Infiltrator Squads, Scout Snipers, a small Bike Squad an a Landspeeder. My first game was against Iron Hands in Priority Targets. He had two Vindicators, two Redemptors, a Terminator Squad and Intercessors to fill out the list (plus two Landspeeders). The Falchion picked up both Vindicators in the bottom of Round 1 (main gun on one, laser destroyers on the other), but was in turn killed by the two Redemptors despite using such defensive strats as I could. The Lion took one and then the other Redemptor while the Hellblasters neutralized his infantry (and were killed in the process). I squeezed out a narrow victory.
Tourney Game 2. This was against Thousand Sons who had three big Rubric Squads, a big Terminator Squad, two Hellbrutes and a Predator plus a smaller Terminator Squad. Lines of sight were tough through the centre of the board and my Falchion could not really move (too big to fit), but it wiped his big stuff and influenced where his Terminators would go. The Hellblasters and Terminators traded shots while the Lion strolled up with Bladeguard and controlled the centre of the board. Another narrow win for the Dark Angels.
Tourney Game 3. Went up against Orks with lots of Trukks and those squig-rider dudes. While my wonky list had worked well against elite armies, this would be a real challenge. This was also a rather chill game for a final round with two undefeated high scoring armies, and we took our time talking about the game as we went (we know each other well). We timed out after his third turn (he went first), so we scored up my Turn 3 Primary and called it a game. I was down to the Lion and the Falchion and he had some little squads (including Grots) spread around. The Falchion, Hellblasters, and Lion were really overkill/inefficient in the match-up but better target selection early might have helped. I also spent a CP on overwatch for my Hellblasters instead of saving it for Armour of Contempt which might have saved them against all those -1 attacks.
2:1 was better than I had expected for my list, and I wouldn't recommend a Falchion. Two Lancers would be better and leave points for a crowd-control unit. Azrael and the Lion was also overkill. Still, a tourney is a good way to learn about a list, and one thing that I learned was that I wanted Doctrines...
Deploy Servo Skulls against Salamanders. I had switched to Gladius here, opting for Belial with a Command Squad, Deathwing Knights, a Predator, a Redemptor, two Infiltrator Squads, a big Ravenwing Command Squad with Sammael, Outriders, a Land Speeder Vengeance and some Scout Snipers. He had an Executioner, a big squad of Infernus Marines, Sternguard, a Redemptor, Eliminators with a Phobos Librarian, Terminators and a big squad of Bladeguard with a Judiciar. He deployed well forward, and I had first turn. I went all-in up the middle, killing his Bladeguard and Sternguard with massed firepower. He lifted my Redemptor with his firepower, but his charge with his Terminators into my Deathwing Knights didn't go well, especially with the Deathwing Command Squad intervening. By the end of my Turn 2 he had the Executioner and a Dreadnought remaining. His deployment was, in my view, too exposed and I think he picked the wrong Oath target (he picked the Redemptor instead of the Deathwing Knights). The Gladius choice went well, and I enjoyed having Doctrines.
I also played in a Teams game with Admech against Custodes (we were prepping for an upcoming Tag-Team tourney. I went all Deathwing under Gladius with a Captain in Terminator Armour. The Deathwing Knights were money against Custodes. That squad with the Captain took down over half of the Custodes's army.
I finally, FINALLY, got to play a 10th edition game, with my Dark Angels, earlier this evening. My opponent was running Tau. I ended up losing basically by just not having enough stuff on the table to score any secondaries, which is the final nail in the coffin for my double big brick idea. I won't go into detail about the game, as I'm sure both my opponent and I did some things wrong (we're both pretty new to the edition), but I do have a few takeaways from this first game.
-As I mentioned, two big bricks is too many. Our terminators are too expensive for it. I found myself rather thin on the ground pretty quickly, and two units, even big thicc ones like DWK and DWCS, just can't hold that much ground.
-Related to the above, I'm not sure which big brick is better. The Knights are tankier, but they are more expensive and can't shoot and thus won't get to interact with the game as much. They are very hard to clear unless your opponent can get some mortal wounds into them though. More testing is definitely required.
-Desolation Marines are pretty gross, especially with Oath of Moment. Obviously a good move would be to run a big brick of 10 with a Librarian bringing Bolter Discipline, but even little units of 5 (I had 2 such units in my list) can do work.
-Inceptors dropping in and doing secondaries is a great little trick. I'd make room for at least one unit in every Marine list, but I don't think I'd run a big blob as they just don't shoot that hard anymore.
-The Deathwing Strikemaster is great; Lethal Hits is good on any Terminator unit, especially since they can't carry big anti-tank (Cyclones aren't what they used to be). I imagine with the DWK it would be really effective at letting that unit punch harder into big stuff like Knights that they might otherwise struggle with.
-Lion is pretty beastly, but if you let him get shot at eventually you will fail your 3++ against a big gun and he'll get splattered. Don't ask how I know this...
One surprising take from them is that the Lion might not be an optimal pick for most lists, simply because he doesn't control enough board space for what he costs, and he isn't as durable as you think, 3++ and -1 to wound be damned. I have to admit, he's a huge points sink and often won't get to kill anything juicy because opponents can just play around him. I personally want to keep running him because I've been waiting for him to get 40k rules since they started bringing Primarchs back, but he might indeed not be optimal.
A good article from Goonhammer - thanks for posting the link!
I played the first round of a League today, having submitted the list a little while ago. The list is:
Belial
Captain in Terminator Armour
Deathwing Knights (ten man)
Deathwing Command Squad (five man)
Gladiator Lancer
Redemptor Dreadnought
Scout Snipers
2 x Infiltrator Squads
2 x Scout Squads (each with a shotgun)
2 x Plasma Inceptors (three man squads)
2 x Attack Bikes
First round was Take and Hold on the Search and Destroy Map against Astra Militarum. He had three infantry squads (20 men each), 1 x Tank Commander, 2 x Leman Russ, 1 x Leman Russ Executioner, 2 x Scout Sentinel units, 3 x Basilisk.
I set up my Infiltrators near the flanking objectives in No-Mans Land with the Deathwing Knights ready to go up the middle. I had Scouts set up to enable various Tactical Missions with Scout Snipers holding my home objective. The Deathwing Command would deep strike along with the Inceptors. He got first turn. His fire into the Deathwing Knights was neutered by Armour of Contempt and their inate Damage Reduction, but my left wing crumpled. My counter-punch was lack-lustre, but my Deathwing Knights miraculously made their advance and charge against the AM squad that had moved up to hold the centre objective. The AM squad was turned into pink mist and bonechips.
I had reinforced my left wing with the Attack Bikes, which were cleared off by his fire in Turn 2. They soaked up a lot of shots along the way, though, with some clutch saves. I drew Secure No Mans's Land and Tempting Target. He selected my right wing No-Mans-Land objective since I could have simply dropped an Inceptor squad onto the left. My right flank objective was held by Scout Sentinels, a Leman Russ and a big AM squad. I threw everything into it, and when the dust settled the left flank was mine (the DW Knights cleared out another big infantry squad).
In Turn 3 he brought back a 20 strong squad as Reinforcements into my now mostly empty backfield along with having drawn the Tactical Objective of taking an objective in the enemy's deployment zone. Things looked tense, but he failed his charge. The day was then saved by a Scout Squad of my own coming in from Strategic Reserves along with some small arms fire. The rest of the game was mopping up as my DW Knights and Redemptor reached his lines.
100 to 48 win for the Dark Angels.
This list had lots of "tech", and the Infiltrators, Scouts and Scout Snipers were great utility. I was worried about the DW Knights mobility with the Basilisk debuff, but Doctrines and the Captain helped mitigate that. The mission map also helped with them starting up front and centre. The Inceptors were useful. The Attack Bikes failed to do much, but they did eat a lot of fire in Turn 2. So that is something and the list needed some mobility.
I can't adjust the list (winning lists have to stay the same) so we'll see what Round 2 brings.
Nice write-up! I myself am in an escalation league and played my first 500-point game yesterday. We are using the Combat Patrol maps, but with the full tactical objectives and rules for 500 points. There will be a total of two games played at each 500-point increment (so 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000) for a total of 8 games. For the first game I took a Primaris Lieutenant with Bolter Discipline and attached him to a 10-man Hellblaster squad, which only left me enough points for a 5-man Intercessor squad and an Attack Bike. I got matched up against Genestealer Cults with a couple of small Acolyte units (one of which had a Primus attached), a unit of Atalan Jackals with an Alphus, a Ridgerunner, and a Reductus Saboteur. I managed to pull the game out thanks to the power of Hellblasters shooting back when they die. I was tabled at the end of turn 5, but was pretty well ahead on points. Oath of Moment is crazy good in smaller games, and Intercessors' sticky objectives thing really came in clutch.
I managed to get my hands on a Stormraven at a reasonable price, and am wondering how to best use it.
I like the idea of filling it up with some Deathwing Knights, hooking up a Redemptor and yeeting the whole thing forward.
In hovermode there should be a reasonable chance to hide it from getting alpha'd if the opponent gets first turn. With a 20 inch movement it should be possible to get it somewhere good, and the whole lot of them being all -1 damage should be able to cause some headaches.
Obvious drawback, that's 40% of the army right there, just over 800 points if a character in tda joins the Knights.
Not sure what else should go with it either, besides some utility units like Infiltrators and Inceptors. Get some heavy fire power and have the Stormraven and friends hold up the enemy as long as possible? Some more mobile units to support them as needed? Another big and tough units to shove on an objective and challenge?
Is that even something that can work at all, or am I vastly overestimating how far the -1 damage goes?
I have a Stormraven as well and I am afraid that it does not leave the hangar. Your DW Knights and Redemptor cannot charge if they disembark after the Stormraven moves, so I am not sure what is gained? The DW Knights could just deepstrike. I suppose they could stay in the Stormraven to and rely on it’s own resilience, disembark st the start of the next turn and then move/charge. I would just as soon use a Landraider, but perhaps the Stormraven play could catch an opponent off-guard?
I guess give it a whirl and let us know! Actual tabletop trumps theory! You should certainly put a character in with them. My go-to has been a Captain in Terminator Armour.
I think that to support that you need cheap board presence (Infiltrators) along with some longer ranged firepower like a Lancer etc. An Inceptor Squad could also be good to drop in with the DW Knights.
So, how did DA do with the dataslate? Here are my hot takes, apply a liberal dose of salt as needed:
-Deathwing Knights stayed the same, but they are still one of the most durable units in the game so that's probably okay and they will still be taken. I just hope they don't get the Custodes treatment eventually and get restricted to 5-man units.
-Our other Terminators got slightly cheaper, but not by a huge amount. DWCS were already an interesting unit. Regular Deathwing Terminators might not be taken anymore unless you just want to throw a couple of Storm Shields into your shooty units, as the Watcher in the Dark's benefit no longer protects against Devastating Wounds. Regular SM Terminator Squads might be better due to their teleport homers and still being cheaper than DW Termies.
-Azrael and most of our other named characters got cheaper somehow. Indeed, with the changes to free strats only applying to Battle Tactics, Azzy might become an auto-include just for the extra CP.
-Lion actually got worse, as one of his buffs is a bubble of 4+++ vs. mortals, which with the changes to Dev Wounds no longer matters as much. Plus he didn't get a points cut at all (not that he needed one). He's certainly still good, but honestly I was starting to waver about his usefulness before the dataslate and nothing in it has made me more confident that he's tournament competitive.
-Regarding Ravenwing, most of it got cheaper or stayed the same. Black Knights got a tiny points cut that only matters if you're playing multiple units. RWCS did better and might actually be playable now especially with some changes to other armies and the core rules. Speeder Vengeances stayed the same, as did Darkshrouds and the planes (why?!), so that's a wash. Outriders and their ATV buddies got a decent points cut, so maybe they are viable now. Storm Speeders got more expensive, which is reasonable for their utility. Ultimately I think Ravenwing is in a better place than it was before, but I'm still not sold on the viability of a pure Ravenwing list. Maybe we can take a few more of them than before and not feel bad though.
-Desolation Marines are history. 200 points for a unit of 5 (with no option to take 10 anymore) has finally coffined these guys. And that's a good thing for the game, as they were warping the meta in a bad way. Dark Angels were using them just as much as the other Marines, so it does affect us at least somewhat. Like other Marines, we'll probably just pivot to Whirlwinds for our indirect fire needs.
-The three Primaris Dreadnoughts (Brutalis, Ballistus, Redemptor) are all looking pretty spicy now, as they all got decent points drops. Not sure how much that benefits DA specifically, but I figure it was worth mentioning. Classic box dreads also got a price cut, but they're still trash.
-Similar to the above, Aggressors look like they are absolutely priced to move now. A unit of 6 with an Apothecary Biologis and Bolter Discipline might be a great answer to certain matchups, especially riding in a Land Raider Redeemer.
-Most of the Battleline stuff got cheaper. Tacticals are now 160 for 10 guys, but honestly they are still not good as you're still bringing along 7 bolter dudes you'd rather not be stuck with. Intercessors seem a little better than before, as their sticky objective thing is still solid and their main competition (Infiltrators) got more expensive. Heavy and Assault Intercessors got a little cheaper as well and might be worth another look now.
-Other little utility stuff got slight drops. Infernus and Incursor Squads got tiny drops (just 1 ppm for each); not sure they'll see any more play than they do now. Eliminators look interesting at 75 points; the question is whether to take the BSRs for character hunting or Las Fusils to attack elite infantry/light vehicles. Reivers got slightly cheaper, but I still don't think they get there as they are just so pillow-fisted.
-Regarding our general melee stuff, Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs are now, amusingly, cheaper than footslogging ones (and cheaper than JP Assault Marines), and are actually starting to look interesting as a bully unit to harass smaller stuff trying to do actions/hold objectives. Bladeguard are now fairly spicy, and a unit of 6 with a Judiciar clocks in at 255 points and can sit on an objective and dare anybody to come try to take them off of it. Sure, the opponent can just shoot them off, but every gun spent killing those guys isn't pointed at the rest of your army. Alternatively, stick Lazarus with a squad of Bladeguard and use them to attack elite infantry; Lazarus makes them fight on death (on a 4+ roll), so even if they die they might get plenty of licks in. You could also stick in a Bladeguard Ancient to give them more attacks for a phase, and extra OC to flip objectives (note you can't take the Ancient with the Judiciar unfortunately).
-I don't know how many DA players were using the various tanks before, but some of them got cheaper while others got more expensive. Vindicators have me raising an eyebrow at 190 (I personally don't own any though), and the price increase to Gladiator Lancers makes me glad I didn't commit to buying any (they are possibly still good though). Ballistus Dreads are probably one of our best sources of ranged anti-tank now.
-I'm somewhat baffled that none of the aircraft got cheaper (DA specific or vanilla SM). Aircraft are already hard to use in 10th (either wait until turn 2 to come in or play like a tank) and they cost a lot for the privilege. I suppose they are paying for their sins in editions past.
-Regarding the core rule changes, the changes to Towering can only help us as we don't have any Towering stuff ourselves. I think it really helps make bike strategies viable as bikes tend to be more expensive than other units due to their mobility, and you really don't want them to just die in your deployment zone because you ran out of places to hide them. Captains got a lot weaker thanks to the changes to free strats, but it it notable that in the Unforgiven Task Force detachment four of the six stratagems are Battle Tactics and therefore usable with Captains (compared to three from the Gladius). I'm not sure it makes that detachment better than the Gladius as the Enhancements from the UTF are just trash compared to the Gladius ones and Grim Resolve will never be as useful as Doctrines, but it is something to consider. Then again, with Insane Bravery being limited to once per game, Battleshock might matter more and it could be useful for Battleshocked units to still be able to hold objectives (particularly in matchups like Chaos Knights that force a lot of tests with modifiers).
Those are my opinions and thoughts on the changes, how do you guys feel about Dark Angels now that the meta has been shaken up?
I took part in a "Tag Team" tournament over the week consisting of five rounds. A team consisted of four players, each bringing a self-contained 1000 point list. Teams would then play each other, but with team captains assigned two players to fight each battle (so 2 x 2v2). You had to team-up with each team-mate at least once before you could repeat a pairing. We had our own pool of CP, but things like Overwatch were still once per Turn. Buffs could only apply to the 1000 point force, but the other tag-team partner was considered "friendly models" regardless of faction. So a bit wacky, but also a fun test of the dataslate.
I took Dark Angels in Gladius, while my teammates were Necrons, Drukhari and Admech. I unleashed my inner-Timmy and my list consisted of:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant with Bolter Discipline (a bit redundant with Azrael, but Critical Hits on 5s in Devastator does pair well with Azrael's extra CP and invul save for the group).
10 x Hellblasters
Captain in Terminator Armour
5 x Deathwing Knights
5 x Infiltrators
5 x Infiltrators
Game 1 - Civil War. With nine teams playing there was a Civil War table where the Team would pair-off against itself. We drew that first, which was great since it let us get used to the Dataslate changes in a chill environment. I was paired with Necrons who had a big brick of Lychguard with a Transcendent C'tan. The Deathwing Knights and Lychguard owned the centre of the board. The Hellblasters killed stuff, but were in turn wiped to a man by a big unit of Kataphron Destroyers. Lesson learned there.
Game 2 - The Ritual on Sweeping Engagement vs Tau and Imperial Knights. I was paired with our Captain's Admech. We lost the roll-off to declare first pair, and that was us. Our opponent put Imperial Knights with Canus Rex, some Armigers and a Vindcaire plus Tau with a Stormsurge, six Crisis Suits and some jumpy characters. My Hellblasters used Devastator Doctrine and a decent advance roll to be in range of the rather incautious Crisis Suit blob. Oath of Moment, ten Hellblasters and a Lieutenant with Bolter Discipline wiped the Crisis suits off the battlefield. They were in turn whittled down by the Armigers and Knight, but they took an Armiger with them. Azrael got sniped by the Vindicaire. Darn. The Deathwing Knights survived a charge by the Knight and then fell back to allow the Kataphrons to finish him off. The Deathwing Knights then killed the Stormsurge in melee. The Hellblasters died in Turn 2, but they did cripple the enemy and it was a rather lop-sided victory.
Game 3 - Scorched Earth on Dawn of War vs Tyranids and Chaos Knights. They had a big melee Knight, three Armigers?Helverins?, two Exocrines and some other bugs. I was paired with Drukhari. The middle was a bit of a killing field, and I was outranged. We went down 53 to 51 in this match, but there was some epic moments. The Hellblasters killed an Armiger and the Knight, but were in turn wiped out by the Exocrines. The Deathwing Knights cleared out some bugs and held an objective, but were slowed by some Barbguants. Azrael died in one-on-one combat with an Armiger-thingy. The Hellblasters can really dish out damage, but they need support from longer-ranged guns. Once the Drukhari boats had been killed we really didn't have an answer to the Exocrines. Epic moment of the game was the Primaris Lieutenant finishing off the Knight with his Bolt Rifle.
Game 4 - Sites of Power on Hammer and Anvil against Khorne and Ultramarines. I was paired with Drukhari again (Day 2 - fresh pairings). They had a Chaos Land Raider, a 10-man Khorne Bezerkers, two units of the big Khorne dudes plus a guy riding a Juggernaught along with a Lancer, an Impulsor, a big Sternguard squad and some Bladeguard. Cover was sparse with only two pieces of Obscuring Terrain in the middle (but in line with each other). They had first turn and it looked grim. The Drukhari boats were smashed and the first squad of those big guys was now quite close to our lines. The Hellblasters took care of them, and two dying Hellblasters finished off the Impulsor. In our Turn 2 the Hellblasters killed the Bezerker squad that had disembarked while the Deathwing Knights deep-struck just outside 9" of the wounded Lancer that was baby-sitting their deployment zone objective after killing our vehicles. A 9" charge killed the Lancer, took the objective and caused a 14 point swing (we had drawn Capture Enemy Outpost). Azrael and the surviving Hellblasters had a crazy run of luck rolling 6s to Overwatch a small Khorne squad to death. This game looked bad at first, but was a low-scoring victory for us. I had thought about using Rapid Ingress, but the lack of Obscuring meant doing so in full view of Sternguard.
Game 5 - Purge the Foe on Crucible of Battle against Astra Militarum and Astra Militarum. I was back with Admech against a Banesword, three Manticores, a bunch of Sentinels and some big squads of infantry. The Destroyers took nine wounds off the Banesword and the Hellblasters did the rest in Turn 1. The rest of the game was mopping up, with Deathwing Knights blending infantry squads while the Infiltrators zoned out our deployment zone from reinforcements. The set-up meant that the Hellblasters could quickly get to the centre and then influence pretty much anywhere (although there was lots of Obscuring).
Takeaways. Tag Team is not really a test of a list but it does give a sense of how units can do.
Azrael with Hellblasters and Primaris Lieutenant with Bolter Discipline. This unit has a big target on it, but it can really dish out damage. The upcoming changes to Oaths will hurt, but Lethals and Sustained on 5s if you keep going into Devastator Doctrine can help mitigate. I suppose an Unforgiven Detachment could use Unforgiven Fury for 1CP to save the points from a Primaris Lieutenant, but you only get the Critical Hits on 5s when someone is Battle Shocked, so its hard to design around. Something to consider I suppose.
The Deathwing Knights with Captain in Terminator Armour were still great after the changes to Free stratagems. I would use one of Azrael's CP to put the Deathwing Knights into Assault Doctrine (if I wasn't) and then use the Captain's free Stratagem on the Battle Tactic of Honour the Chapter.
I have had to rework my list for our league - staying in Gladius. Now running two blocks of ten Hellblasters. One with Azrael and a Primaris Lt, the other with a Primaris Lt with Bolter Discipline. A squad of five Deathwing Knights with the Captain will be there for close in work, while two Predators provide more long-ranged fire support. Two Scout Squads, two Infiltrator Squads, a Scout Sniper Squad and a Phobos Captain will draw Tactical Objective duties and try to have board presence, while a squad of Plasma Inceptors will be my ace in the hole.
Played a league game against Necrons with my 2 x Hellblaster brick supported by Scouts and DW Knights. He had the Silent King, three Monoliths, an Obelisk and some little filler. I usually play Tactical Objectives, but this time I went for Fixed: Bring it Down and Deploy Teleport Homers.
Still using old Oath, the Hellblasters took down a Monolith a turn while the Scouts and Inceptors deployed homers. When he could shoot at my Hellblasters with a Monolith it really hurt, but I tried to use the terrain and strategic reserves to minimize this. The Deathwing Knights took down a Monolith with a charge, but Oath of Moment was critical for this. The DW Knights also died to the Silent King's shooting and melee. I won 83 to 53, but a really tactical game.
I am relying on reviews at this point, but I think that Gladius will still be my "go-to" for Dark Angels with the new Space Marine Codex. New Oath will hurt Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights, so getting Lethal Hits through Lieutenants with Fire Discipline and Strikemasters may be critical to their viability going forward. I think that I might replace my second Hellblaster brick with Eradicators. I will give another look at Deathwing Terminators with Chainfists to have an anti-vehicle punch.
While you would think that the White Scars-themed Detachment would make sense for Ravenwing, I am leaning towards the Salamanders one.
I just played a 2k-points game today vs. Black Templars. Only my second full 2k game since 10th dropped, so it felt good to be getting a full army on the table. I ran a Gladius Strike Force, and my opponent had the Black Templars detachment (whatever it's called).
My list:
Spoiler:
Characters:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant: Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol
Apothecary Biologis: Bolter Discipline
Terminator Captain: Adept of the Codex
Units:
5 Intercessors: Power Weapon
6 Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Launchers
10 Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
10 Hellblasters
3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
Predator Annihilator: 2x Lascannon, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
Land Raider Redeemer: Multimelta, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
My opponent's list, as best I remember it:
Spoiler:
Characters:
High Marshal Helbrecht
Chaplain Grimaldus
Primaris Lieutenant
Primaris Chaplain
Units:
5 Assault Intercessors: Power Fist
5 Heavy Intercessors: Heavy Bolter
10 Primaris Crusader Squad (melee weapons and pyreblaster)
10 Primaris Crusader Squad (don't remember the exact loadout)
10 Sword Brethren (variety of weapons)
5 Incursors
Redemptor Dreadnought: Heavy Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, TL Storm Bolter, Icarus Pod
BT Impulsor: Multi-melta, Bellicatus Missile Array
Land Raider: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
BT Gladiator Lancer: Multi-melta
I won't go into huge detail in the game, although some of the highlights include me nominating his Land Raider for the first two turns as the Oath target and utterly failing to kill it (Helbrecht, the LT, and the Sword Brethren were inside) with my Predator for two turns (one turn I didn't even dent it except for a couple of cheeky Hellblaster shots, it was wild), and him failing a 7 inch charge with his big Sword Brethren deathstar into my Deathwing Knights, which allowed me to just charge on my turn with Honour the Chapter and wipe the unit (except for Helbrecht, who I might have also picked up if I'd remembered that I had picked that unit with Oath that turn). My opponent was already behind on points at that time, and failing that charge pretty much sealed the deal. We called it at the end of turn 4; I don't remember the scores, but I was pretty far ahead on primary and was about to probably max secondary points.
My takeaways from this game:
-Land Raiders actually feel very tough. They are big enough to hide part of them and claim a cover bonus easily, and Armor of Contempt further increases their durability. I'm super happy to have an excuse to run a Land Raider!
-Losing the wound rerolls on Oath is going to sting pretty hard. They were fairly clutch overall for both players in this game, and I think Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights are going to be far less good without them. Lieutenants may be mandatory for those units now, or else they are only good vs. elite infantry.
-Regardless of what the propaganda has told us about 10th, deathstars are back in a very big way. Both of us had one in our game today, and stuff I'm seeing online is that a lot of lists have one big scary unit with characters that stack buffs on them and good stratagem support. Thankfully we aren't fully back to 7th edition silliness with giant units, but what we have is still pretty scary. When list building, you've definitely got to figure out a way to deal with these big nasty units.
-I'm not sure I'm happy with the Predator. Rerolling 1's for damage did come up and did help a little, but it's still not that many shots. Definitely a bit of a "poor man's Gladiator Lancer", but honestly it's probably worthwhile to bring a Ballistus Dreadnought instead if you can find the points.
-I'll echo TTB above and say that the Gladius is probably still the best detachment for Dark Angels; those doctrines really helped me out in this game. The Unforgiven Task Force is just such a poor substitution (I will be giving that a go in a couple of 1k games later this month for my escalation league), and I'm not sure the other upcoming detachments are as universally good as the Gladius.
-Battleshock is just not a big deal for Marines. Most of the time, my units were either high enough strength as to not have to test, or were killed to a man before they had to test. The few tests I did have to take I passed, and my opponent failed like one for an inconsequential unit.
-Inceptors are probably one of the best mission pieces we have, if not the best. I needed a couple of units to score me Behind Enemy Lines in one turn, so I just dropped both Inceptor squads back there and got my 5 points. Their plasma is nothing to sneeze at either, as with Twin-Linked you can approximate the old Oaths benefit in future if you are shooting at the Oaths target.
Played a game with the new Codex against Custodes yesterday. While I had ideas to test out one of the new Detachments, in the interests of simplicity on release day I just took Gladius. This would let me focus on changes to datasheets and Oath of Moment. I had Ravenwing Black Knights (including a Command Squad), Sammael, Eradicators, Inceptors, two Predators, five Deathwing Knights with a Terminator Captain, Scouts, two Infiltrator Squads, a Stormspeeder Thunderstrike and a Landspeeder Vengeance.
I certainly noticed the change to Oath, especially with the Deathwing Knights as they fought high toughness Custodes infantry and Dreadnoughts.The Predator Annihilator and Thunderstrike combo did some work early on against a Custodes tank, but the Stormspeeder then got destroyed.
The Deathwing Knights were still great, and having a rerolled changes out of Deepstrike swung the game (two Secondaries were in play with that one). The Knights and their Captain took down a Custodes Squad, a Shield Captain and two Dreadnoughts. The Terminator Captain and one Deathwing Knight were still alive at the end.
I am liking Eradicators in Strategic Reserve in this new Oath world. The Black Knights struggled and I would think very hard before taking them in a competitive game. Custodes are not a great matchup for Black Knights due to access to damage reduction, but the Black Knights were very underwhelming. So was Sammael.
I am taking a hard look at the Chaplain in Terminator Armour due to his ability to add 1 to Wound rolls in melee. Could be a good choice to lead Deathwing Knights in this new Oath world.
None of the new Detachments are really jumping out at me for Dark Angels. Gladius is still good. There is a meme-list of a Vanguard Spearhead with 10 infiltrating Deathwing Knights (with a character using the Blade Driven Deep enhancement) which looks intriguing, but the Deathwing Knights will struggle somewhat against high-toughness targets without access to Honour the Chapter. Still a very survivable brick in the centre of the board to mess up the enemy's plan. I might try it...
Anvil Seige Force looks intriguing for a gun-line Dark Angels army, but I am not sure if it is better than the Unforgiven list. The Anvil Seige Force does have a good (but 2CP) stratagem to allow massed Hellblasters to reroll wounds against monsters and vehicles. An Azrael force might have the CP to actually plan for this a few times per game.
The 1st Company Task Force might have some play with Deathwing Terminators. The once per game old Oath would allow Deathwing Knights to drop big scary things. The Iron Resolve enhancement on a character leading a brick of Deathwing Knights could be fun - a once per game 5+ feel no pain for the Deathwing Knights could be clutch. The Imperium's Sword enhancement on a character with Deathwing Knights could also be nasty with a once per game extra attack for all members of the squad. The Stratagems are quite "meh."
Perhaps there is a good Ravenwing list hiding in the Stormlance. I just can't find it yet...But I will keep looking!
I agree that Black Knights are kind of on the struggle bus, points drops be damned. Ravenwing need some serious love once the DA codex drops (early next year if the rumors are true). I've tried them in a game once myself, and they were underwhelming, but then I didn't commit and only ran a 3-man squad of them. Maybe a 6-man with a Bike Chappy could do better?
On Deathwing Knights, I plan to run them with a Strikemaster from now on, as Lethal Hits will sometimes make up for the lack of old Oaths. And anything with built-in rerolls will help us keep that old Oaths magic, so stuff like the Predator Annihilator with its twin lascannon, and the Eradicators you mentioned (I love those things!). And we've still got the standard Marine tricks of the Aggressor/Biologis/Fire Discipline combo (with optional LR Redeemer) and others to help us keep up with the meta.
One thing I'd like to try, although it's not DA specific, is a drop pod with a 10-man Infernus Squad inside it, in the not-Salamanders detachment. Drop them somewhere inconvenient for your opponent and then pop the flamer strat. On their turn, they'll have to move something to deal with the Infernus guys, so you slap them with some Overwatch action. Sounds like good clean fun to me, even if it's not as good as doing that on flamer Aggressors (I don't own any of those, Infernus is what I got).
Yesterday's Goonhammer article showed a couple more interesting Dark Angels lists for us, including an Unforgiven Strike Force list that came in 4th at the SoCal Open:
The SoCal list had a brick of Hellblasters with Azrael, a crunchy Deathwing Command Squad (joined by a Terminator Ancient with the Pennant) and 3 Repulsor Executioners with a Darkshroud to provide the benefit of cover. I'm honestly fascinated by the fact that someone would choose the Unforgiven detachment over the Gladius or one of the new ones, but then again it's not too bad. As Goonhammer even point out, the strats rock. I personally am just not impressed by the Enhancements, but then maybe I'm just not using them right. I played a couple of games with the Unforgiven force (1k points for my escalation league), and I found myself missing my doctrines.
The other featured list was using the Ironstorm Spearhead, and the only DA-specific thing in the list was a Darkshroud to provide the benefit of cover to all the vehicles (hiding behind a wall as much as possible). That list got pipped in the final by a nasty CSM list piloted by Innes Wilson, a known very good player. While part of me is a little salty that it's not really a DA list since it only took a Darkshroud, anything that can help us do better is welcome. Personally I want to see someone win a big tournament with The Lion and prove me wrong about him.
Lately it seems that a lot of Dark Angels' success is riding on the Ironstorm Spearhead detachment, which gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, it's great to see DA doing well, but on the other hand they're doing well with mostly the generic Marine toys (that winning list had only one DA thing in it, that being Azrael). I'd love to see more of what we saw last week with someone doing well using the Unforgiven detachment. I also wouldn't mind seeing someone take down an event with The Lion, proving me wrong about him, but I don't see it happening.
Played a 2k-point game with my Dark Angels vs. one of my friends' Leagues of Votann earlier today. Mission was probably the simplest one (forgot the name of it) with pretty simple 5 or 10 points for holding one or two objectives, respectively, plus 5 for each one you hold at the end. We used Hammer & Anvil deployment and decided to just use Chilling Rain as the secondary to be more like tournament play. My list was the following:
Spoiler:
Gladius Task Force Characters Azrael (Warlord) Lieutenant: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Enhancement: Artificer Armor Apothecary Biologis: Enhancement: Fire Discipline Deathwing Strikemaster: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Enhancement: The Honor Vehement Units: 5 Intercessors: Power Weapon on Sgt. 10 Hellblasters 10 Deathwing Knights 6 Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets & Fragstorm Launchers 3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators 3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators Vehicles: Land Raider Redeemer: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter, HK Missile Predator Annihilator: Lascannon Sponsons, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
My opponent's list, as best as I can remember, it was more or less of a throw together of whatever he had available as he barely had enough LoV stuff for a 2k game:
Spoiler:
Oathband Characters: Uthar the Destined Kahl: Concussion Gauntlet, Autoch-pattern Combi-bolter, Enhancement: Appraising Glare Einhyr Champion: Mass Hammer, Enhancement: Wayfarer's Grace Einhyr Champion: Mass Hammer, Enhancement: Grim Demeanor Einhyr Champion: Mass Hammer Brokhyr Iron-Master Units: 10 Hearthkyn Warriors: 8x Ion Blaster, Magna-Rail Rifle, HYLas Auto Rifle, all the support pieces (medipack, etc.) 10 Hearthkyn Warriors: 8x Ion Blaster, Magna-Rail Rifle, HYLas Auto Rifle, all the support pieces (medipack, etc.) 10 Hearthkyn Warriors: 8x Ion Blaster, L7 Missile Launcher, HYLas Auto Rifle, all the support pieces (medipack, etc.) 10 Einhyr Hearthguard: Volkanite Disintegrators, 9x Concussion Gauntlet, Concussion Maul 5 Einhyr Hearthguard: Volkanite Disintegrators, 4x Concussion Gauntlet, Concussion Maul 3 Hernkyn Pioneers: HYLas Rotary Cannon, Searchlight, Scanner 3 Hernkyn Pioneers: HYLas Rotary Cannon, Searchlight, Scanner Vehicles: Sagitaur: HYLas Beam Cannon Hekaton Land Fortress: 2x Twin Bolt Cannon, Cyclic Ion Cannon Hekaton Land Fortress: 2x Twin Bolt Cannon, Cyclic Ion Cannon
I deployed my Land Raider (with the Aggressor bomb inside) on the line, my Deathwing Knights in the bottom of a ruin (we ruled like many tournaments that bottom floor blocks LOS), and my Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Predator behind the ruin. The Inceptors, of course, were in Deep Strike Reserves. My opponent put his solo Champion (the Wayfarer's Grace one), as well as his big Hearthguard brick and their Champion, in Deep Strike. His smaller Hearthguard and the third Champion were in one of the Land Forts, which basically deployed on the line also. The bikes deployed on the line but on the flanks, and most of the Warriors were in the backfield holding his home objective and trying in vain to screen his DZ from my reserves (hard to screen out Inceptors with their rules though). The other five Warriors were in the Sagitaur. He put his free Judgment Tokens on the Land Raider, the Knights, the Hellblasters, and the Predator. We rolled for first turn and he got it.
On turn 1, he scout moved his bikes and Sagitaur forwards, then moved the flanking bikes fairly close to my lines. His first major misplay was to move his bikes into range of my Land Raider, which let me use my only Command Point to Fire Overwatch and kill them down to a single wound (that was frustrating for me as I was hoping to just pick up the unit, oh well). His other bikes chewed up my Hellblasters pretty good, bagging six of them altogether since I didn't have a CP for Armor of Contempt. All of them made their rolls to shoot as they died and wiped the bikes in return. His Land Fortresses combined took my Land Raider down to 8 wounds, but otherwise he really didn't do much else except sticky one of the midfield objectives with the squad that got out of the Sagitaur. On my turn, I called Devastator Doctrine and moved all my stuff up, disembarking the Aggressors. The Intercessors, after stickying the home objective, started moving toward the right flank objective, trying and failing to polish off that last bike. My Predator shot all of its weapons at the Land Fortress in the midfield (that had Hearthguard inside) and did all of 3 wounds to it, Oath of Moment be damned (my opponent rolled well for his saves and used Void Armor). The Aggressors ground another 8 or so wounds off of it with Storm of Fire, and the Hellblasters thankfully finished it off, killing one of the Hearthguard with the emergency disembark. The Land Raider did a few wounds to the other Land Fort and wiped the final bike on my right flank. I tried to charge the now-disembarked Hearthguard with both my Deathwing Knights and Aggressors (each needing a 9-inch charge), but neither unit made it in.
On turn 2, my opponent moved his Hearthguard closer to my Aggressors, and got three of them barbecued by my Land Raider's overwatch, leaving just one plus the champion. He also moved his Land Fortress right up next to the Land Raider, as well as slightly moving up his Sagitaur and Hearthkyn next to it. He also brought in all of his reserves, dropping the big Hearthguard bomb in the middle near my Aggressors and the solo Champ on the left flank threatening Azrael and his men. He managed to plink a couple more wounds off of the Land Raider and dropped two of the Deathwing Knights in shooting from the Hearthguard (he later lamented forgetting to use Ancestral Sentence here). Both units of Hearthguard and their Champions made their charges and killed four of the six Aggressors (leaving another with just 1 wound), but the solo Champ failed his charge even with a reroll. The only reason my Aggressors held on that well is because of Armor of Contempt. He also charged my Land Raider with his Land Fortress, beginning what would become a multi-turn game of bumper cars, and charged his Sagitaur and Hearthkyn into Azrael's group (after killing two more Hellblasters in shooting, which killed two of the Hearthkyn in response when they died). Azrael nearly soloed the Sagitaur (left it with one wound), and the other men wiped the Hearthkyn. On my turn, I moved up the Predator to get an angle on the solo Champion. I called Tactical Doctrine so I could fall back and shoot with some of my units, letting Azrael's group and the Aggressors get out of combat so I could shoot stuff. The Deathwing Knights used Tactical Flexibility to go into Assault Doctrine and moved up to line up a short charge into the Hearthguard. The Land Raider shot some of its weapon into the Land Fort that was in combat with it, plinking a few wounds off, and shot its flamers into the now lonesome Einhyr Champion (his last Hearthguard buddy died to Aggressor fists in my opponent's turn). The Aggressors, after falling back, killed a couple of Hearthguard (they aren't as good without Dev Doctrine or the strat). The Pred killed the solo Champ, but he made the roll for Wayfarer's Grace and stood back up at the end of the phase. My Inceptors came in and spectacularly whiffed, barely killing any models from the Iron-master's unit of Hearthkyn. They did score me 5 points for Behind Enemy Lines, though, which was the main thing. The Deathwing Knights wiped out the Hearthguard thanks to Honor the Chapter, but sadly wasn't actually on the midboard objective (they would have had to Consolidate towards the Land Fort that was in combat with the Land Raider).
On turn 3, my opponent was ahead on points and had kept me bottled up for a couple of turns now. He brought up the solo Champion and yeeted the Predator into the sun, and the Iron-master and his warriors killed one of the two Inceptor units. His Land Fort shot at my Intercessors, killing three (would have wiped the unit except for Armor of Contempt). On my turn, things started to look a bit worse, as I failed my Battleshock tests on Azrael's unit and the Intercessors. Worse, my secondaries were wanting me to control objectives (Cleanse and Secure No Man's Land), which you can't do with Battleshocked units. Thankfully I was able to Cleanse with the Aggressors on the midfield objective, and due to charging my Knights into that Land Fortress and killing it I was able to grab the objective on the right flank for Secure No Man's Land. The Inceptors killed a few more Hearthkyn out of another unit, but didn't make their Hail Mary charge into my opponent's home objective (it wasn't really necessary anyways). Azrael's unit wiped out the Wayfarer champion despite being Battleshocked, so it was definitely looking like the game was swinging back towards me.
On turn 4, my opponent wiped out the Aggressors and the Apothecary Biologis (he got Assassinate) with Uthar's unit of Warriors, but failed to kill all of my Inceptors with his other units. I called Assault Doctrine and managed to make a long-bomb charge into Uthar's squad after softening them up with shooting, killing him and the rest of his men. We pretty much called it and talked it out from here, as now I was going to max primary and had nearly maxed my secondaries and my opponent was basically out of stuff. The final score was a 94-70-something victory for the Sons of the Lion. It was a pretty fun game, but only my opponent's second ever game with the Votann. He forgot some of his key strats (like the aforementioned Ancestral Sentence) and made a few mistakes like moving the bikes into the Land Raider's overwatch range and getting his bikes killed by my Hellblasters' death shooting (that cost him a table quarter for Engage on all Fronts). He normally plays Custodes, so this was a very different playstyle army for him. Still, plenty of lessons were learned on both sides, and I look forward to more games. For my part, I liked seeing the Votann in action as I have a force of them that I'm building up.
My key takeaways: -The Gladius Task Force is a very strong choice for Dark Angels. Being able to get Sustained 1/Lethal on two different units is very nice, and that Aggressor brick absolutely puts in work and isn't trivial to shift. -Deathwing Knights are absurdly durable, and they can hit hard in the Gladius thanks to Honor the Chapter/Assault Doctrine. I do think next time I might take a Terminator Captain instead of the Strikemaster, as the Lethal Hits wasn't really needed but free AoC or HtC would have helped. -So far, the Predator has been okay in my games, but never the absolute star. It's still a nice little workhorse anti-tank piece that is cheaper than either a Lancer or Ballistus Dread. -Azrael is a monster in melee in addition to being one of the better buff characters for a unit. I think he's actually undercosted for how all-around useful he is. -Intercessors and their sticky objectives are a great thing to have in a list. I don't think I'll leave home without them in my DA lists.
Closed out the final rounds of a local league with post-Codex Dark Angels. I stayed with Gladius and just tweaked my list to be up to date with points/non-Legends units.
Azrael, two Lieutenants (one with Fire Discipline), a Terminator Captain and a Phobos Librarian led a force of:
10 Hellblasters
10 Hellblasters
5 Infiltrators
5 Infiltrators
3 x 5 Scouts (with shotguns in two squads - WYSIWYG)
2 x 5 Infiltrators
1 x 3 Plasma Inceptors
5 x Deathwing Knights
Predator Annihilator
Predator Destructor
Game 4 - Custodes
I would like to say that I put three of my Scouts squads forward to bait my opponent into the open, but I really just forgot that I was now running a Phobos Librarian instead of a Phobos Captain and they were hanging in the breeze when the Custodes got first turn. Down three squads, but the enemy was exposed. Hellblasters took down a squad of Wardens with a Captain - damage reduction and a 4+ FNP soaked up a ton of firepower.
The Infiltrators kept the Allarus squads back when the dropped in, but my Predators were dying to a grav tank. Azrael and the Hellblasters focused down on an Allarus Squad, killing them with blistering firepower (and Overwatch in the Custodes turn). The Deathwing Knights and Inceptors dropped into the Custodes' backfield, flipping their objective and drawing in his own jump troops. Mopping up after this, but Azrael did need to conduct a Heroic Intervention to prevent my own home objective from getting flipped.
A rough start, but Hellblasters can still get it done vs power armour, even ones with damage reduction.
Game 5 - Salamanders
He had a brick of Flame Aggressors, a big squad of Infernus, a full Bladeguard Squad, a Repulsor Executioner, a Stormspeeder, a Redemptor, two Inceptor Squads, Eradicators, Eliminators and some Salamanders characters.
My left-flank Predator was somewhat vulnerable (again, I would like to say this was bait) and it was destroyed turn 1, along with a Scout Squad who were zorched by the Infernus Marines. That was actually bait.
The Fire Discipline Hellblasters theb killed all ten Infernus who had pounced on my vulnerable Scouts while the surviving Predator and Azrael's Hellblasters took down the Executioner. Hellblasters are noticeably worse against tanks now (duh?), but Lethal and Sustained Hits are nice.
His big brick of Aggressors moved up to flame Azrael's squad, but supercharging Overwatch not only killed an Aggressor but also killed the three Hellblasters in range of the Aggressors. This likely saved the rest of the squad. Both Hellblaster squads then wiped the Aggressors and Eradicators while my Inceptors flipped the enemy objective that was incautiously held by Eliminators. The Deathwing Knights then finished off the Salamanders over the next two turns, supported by ever-dwindling Hellblasters.
Thoughts
Azrael, Hellblasters and a Lieutenant are still really, really good. Give the Lieutenant the melee options and you can also blend in melee alongside Azrael. This makes them a great mid-field unit. The Deathwing Knights really miss their once-per-game protection against Devastating Wounds, but they are still great.
I don't think we can only rely on Hellblasters with new Oath, so going forward I might swap one squad for some longer-range higher-strength firepower. Which is a challenge. Still keeping Azrael, a full Hellblaster Squad and a Lieutenant (maybe with Fire Discipline for the 5+ Critical and Lethal in Dev) as my mid-field manglers. Deathwing Knights with a Terminator Captain give a somewhat reliable means to flip the game with the re-rollable charge.
The Ravenwing Detachment preview is up - I am broadly optimistic.
Detachment ability is that Adeptus Astartes units are eligible to shoot in a turn in which they advanced or fell back. This is pretty good - allowing Outriders to move far and still score Tactical Objectives. Falling back and shooting with Black Knights is also good.
Outriders become Battle Line. I suppose you might want to take more than three?
The two strategems look fine: a debuff to enemy shooting and a boost to the wound roll against Infantry or Mounted. The wound roll is a little niche, and I guess that Thunderstrikes will still be needed.
The Enhancement allowing a unit to be in Strat Reserves, not count against the total and treat the turn as one earlier is good (similar to the Storm Lance one).
It looks like Black Knights, Sammael, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Landspeeder Vengeance and Darkshroud will still have datasheets, but the Talonmaster is not mentioned. Maybe Legends? Sad.
Looks like the Command Squad Champion has the Character keyword (and could be given an Enhancement) and can join a unit of Black Knights. Perhaps it is capped at the three models for the Command Squad? (Champion, Apothecary and Ancient)?
It appears only three detachments, and one is the current one (unknown if it will have changes). I found that interesting with the first supplement codex.
I have a feeling the DW Strikemaster will no longer exist. I may need to convert that model to an Ancient in Terminator Armor.
Curious about the Ravenwing detachment. I have not paid much attention to those models in 10th; cautiously optimistic.
Deathwing preview is up. Detachment gets to pick an objective and gain +1 to Wound against enemy near it. Not bad.
The Deathwing Assault enhancement to allow the character and his attached unit to Deep Strike on Turn 1 could be very good. Enemy can screen, of course, but it opens up No Mans Land without having to be Vanguard. Dropping in ten DW Knights with a Captain could allow us to pin an enemy in their DZ.
The points on Deathwing Knights look to have increased quite a bit from the sample list, so maybe their data sheet got some buffs? AP -2 would be great…
Yeah, an 11-ppm hike on Deathwing Knights if they stay exactly as they are will kill them competitively. Maybe enough players screeched on the internet about them that GW decided to point the nerf bat their direction despite the new kit coming out. I do like what I've seen of the new detachments though, and I hope the current Unforgiven Task Force gets a buff (not sure what that would be admittedly) and becomes a bit more viable.
The Deathwing Knight swords look decidedly “meh” in the battle report. If those points are true and the Maces stay the way they are in the current sheets then the Knights just took a major hit.
No idea how the Unforgiven will be fixed. There is some good in the current detachment, but much of it is too conditional to Battleshock. I am not sure when books go to the printers. If it’s is only a couple of months then there is hope. Otherwise it might be back to Gladius...
The points for the Knights is rough. If I can play a full 10 strong unit and the mace stat remains unchanged, I will still play the unit but need to figure out where 110 points will come from.
At current costs, that's a squad of Inceptors I'd have to drop. I'd find an alternative to the Knights instead, or just scrap my whole list and rebuild from scratch.
Deathwing Knights took a few massive hits. Even if the points come down from the preview, the maces going to D2 and having the squad capped at five hurts. I don’t think they will see very much play. Nice models though.
The Lion got worse, so he will continue to stay on the shelf.
Deathwing Command Squad is gone. Deathwing Terminators can’t mix in Thunderhammer and Storm Shields.
So it’s tough news for Deathwing...
Unforgiven Task Force is still bad, and one Stratagem that was quite good (Line Unbroken) got worse. Gladius it is.
The Ravenwing detachment might have some play, but the underlying units are still a little “meh.” Loss of Talonmaster confirmed. Still, might play the objectives well so we’ll have to try it out.
So this book might have been written and sent to print before Edition launch? A mid-performing army got some of its key units nerfed (and one removed). Losing units to Legends as kits change is one thing, but the nerf to Knights really hurts.
I recently read Goonhammer's review of the codex, and, well, we got shafted pretty hard overall. I will give my very hot-take-ish thoughts below:
THE GOOD Ravenwing Command Squad rework: Having access to another generic bike character really opens up options for both the new Company of Hunters detachment as well as the Stormlance Task Force from Codex: Space Marines. I look forward to having a reason to actually run bike units again. New unit options for our characters: Being able to put Ezekiel with some better unit choices (like Bladeguard) makes me more likely to consider taking him. And that's just one example. I really like this kind of thing, as I enjoy running some of the named heroes and I want them to be at least decent. Inner Circle Task Force: This is probably the best detachment Dark Angels got, and although it might still not be as good as some of the vanilla SM choices there's definitely some interesting possibilities with it. Company of Hunters: At first glance this thing seems pretty decent, although I think it'll take a pretty good player to get the most out of it. I'm glad I held on to a bunch of my old Ravenwing bikes, as I'm probably going to invoke what GW said a while back and use them as Outriders (and my Attack Bikes as ATVs). Asmodai: He's actually (probably) good now! I like Goonhammer's idea of running him with a brick of Assault Intercessors, as that seems like a fun little unit.
THE BAD Lion eats a double nerf: Lion was already a borderline case, not making it into many competitive lists, and unless he gets a big drop in points from the dataslate he's going to be fully relegated to shelf duty. Land Speeder Vengeance nerfed: I guess there was a secret LS Vengeance meta that was oppressive or something, because GW decided to reduce the damage of the plasma weapon. Like Lion, this thing is never going to see play unless it gets a significant points reduction. Deathwing Knights: Now limited to 5 dudes and the damage of the maces has been reduced. As long as the points either stay the same as the current dataslate or go down slightly, these might still see some play, but their days as a build-around unit are probably behind them. Belial: His strikebacks went from 2+ to a 4+ for no damn reason, and he got nothing as compensation unless the dataslate helps him. Noticing a pattern here? No more Company Heroes for Azrael or Lazarus: Not a huge deal probably as you can still take the unit with a generic Captain, but losing yet more options sucks. Deathwing Terminators can't mix ranged and assault variants: No more hammers or claws mixed in with the guns. They can still take plasma cannons which normal Marines don't get, and honestly their rules are still good, so I think they still have play. Hopefully they'll at least get a FAQ to allow their sarge to take a fist instead of a sword, as there's really no reason for them to be arbitrarily restricted like that. The Unforgiven Task Force is still just a slightly worse Gladius: It's not bad per se, and the enhancement that used to be called the Heavenfall Blade is still really fun, but one of the strats got nerfed and nothing got buffed to compensate, which feels bad.
THE UGLY Strikemasters, Talonmasters, and the Deathwing Command Squad got Thanos'd: I expected the Strikemaster and Talonmaster to go away as they never had official models (TM was only a sanctioned kitbash type thing), but to see the Deathwing Command Squad get sunsetted as well really hurts. I do understand why it's being done though. Press F to pay respects.
THE UNKNOWN Inner Circle Companions: I need to find somewhere to actually see their datasheet, as that would make it easier to quantify how good or bad they might be. I imagine it's going to depend on their final points cost.
As ever, I don't think the sky is totally falling, and there are still plenty of good Dark Angels lists to be discovered, I'm sure. When life gives you lemons, make some lemonade. If nothing else, the Gladius list with a Dark Angels spin is pretty evergreen, so at least we have something to fall back on if nothing else proves to be good.
the companions are just assault marines (firstborn) with eviscerators.. theres only 5 of them and they have no upgrades, they are the most boring whitebread unit imaginable, they will never see play unless their so cheap you can take 5 for almost free
^spot on. They're as bland as this edition. I can't fathom why anyone would want those models. Just green stuff some cloaks and save yourselves the debasement of buying
downgrade units
Sadly, even with the release of the Balance Dataslate, we're kind of in limbo until our codex officially drops. The points changes to regular SM units do raise some eyebrows though. Here are a few hot take-ish thoughts:
-Aggressors got more expensive, but honestly I think they're still good. The tried and true Gladius Fire Discipline Biologis Aggressor Bomb is still kind of nuts.
-Hellblasters went untouched, so we should still bring a unit with Azrael. They're good in just about any detachment, too.
-Assault Intercessors got cheaper, so the brick of 10 with Asmodai is definitely on the menu now!
-Inceptors got significantly more expensive. I personally still think one unit is too good of a utility piece to pass up, but I'll probably switch my second one for some Jump Pack Assault Intercessors to save points. In some games I don't need the 3 inch deep strike capability anyway.
-Whirlwinds got punted into the sun. It might actually be better to go back to a single Desolation Squad now, especially as other factions' indirect pieces also got hit.
-Outriders at 80 points for 3 might be worth consideration? Certainly if we wanted to run any kind of Ravenwing-heavy strategy (with either the Company of Hunters or Stormlance) they seem more viable than they were before. They're still pretty pillow-fisted, but maybe now they're cheap enough to run anyway.
-Intercessors and Heavy Intercessors are cheap enough to make me consider them more strongly. I was already bringing an Intercessor unit in a lot of my lists because sticky objectives is a great rule, and Heavy Intercessors might be useful just to be a fridge and camp an objective for a whole game.
-Sternguard might actually be better in the Inner Circle detachment than in any other Marine detachment simply because rerolling wounds against units on the marked objective (with the Martial Mastery strat) makes it easier to fish for those tasty Dev Wounds. And they just got cheaper now. I fully intend to experiment with this.
-Scouts are more expensive. To the great shock of no one, as they were criminally undercosted before. I imagine we'll still take them.
-Redemptors got a bump too. This only impacts our Ironstorm builds really, although I was considering them for the Inner Circle detachment as well. Not sure a 10-point increase completely kills them, but we'll see.
Hopefully we don't have to wait too long for our actual book release so GW will tell us our actual points costs (especially those of the Inner Circle Companions, as points are going to make or break that unit).
The Balance Dataslate opened up for Marine armies using Vanguard Spearhead in a move that surprised me.
A DA army using Vanguard Spearhead can take 6 Centurions and use Guerilla Tactics stratagem. Not quite as good as Uriel Ventris/Centurions, but if my opponent gets first turn, I can pull thr Centurions off the board at the end of my opponent's fight phase for 1 CP and place them on the board via Strategic Reserve counting as one turn higher. I can now place them in the most advantageous position with 6 Lascannons and 6 Missile Launchers. Give them Strike from the Shadows for +1 to hit (and AP bonus) and it is nearly as effective as Oath of the Moment.
I had to adjust to losing my DW Knights. Now, they are all Assault Terminators with Storm Shield/Thunderhammers.
I added a banner/icon to my Strikemaster and now is an Ancient in Terminator Armour.
I'll try out the DA detachments at some point once I get the army updated. In the meantime, I still get to use my DA in a similar fashion as before the codex release.
Honestly, this codex supplement is the biggest piece of dung I’ve seen for Dark Angels in a long while. I don’t care what they do with the points, they ain’t saving this dex unless they actually reverse some of the nerfs.
Fully sticking to the Index for remainder of edition unless they make big changes. Was able to snag some of the index cards to use as the app will soon be useless for me when the dex officially drops.
Huge disappointment.
Yeah the DA codex is 70% trash. All the stratagems, enhancements and the Inner Circle detachment are good. Everything else has been bloodied with the nerf bat and then coated in bland sauce. "Pay us money to replace your models with nicer looking ones but with reduced options and power; $80 please." Whoever wrote this codex will wear this shame as an asterix to their name, like the Admech writer. 365pts for for the lion wtf are they smoking? "Hey guys here's a ravenwing detachment, but all of your models are legends now so good luck using it." A dick pic on the inside cover would've been less offensive then this collection of seizures over a keyboard.
We still don't have all the info. Yes 365 would be way too much for the Lion, but what if he was only 320? I seriously doubt he'll be that cheap; the 350 seen in the current balance dataslate (that is for his old profile) seems more likely, which would be pretty overcosted for his nerfed stats. The Inner Circle detachment, as you say, is pretty good, so maybe let's figure on leaning into that. I definitely think there are some good builds that can come out of that. The Ravenwing detachment might have some teeth too, especially since Outriders are quite cheap now. I think it would take a pretty good player to make it work well, but some of the movement tricks could catch opponents off guard. And of course if all else fails, we can still use all of the detachments in Codex: Space Marines, some of which are quite solid for DA already. Maybe instead of being a bunch of debbie downers, let's actually come up with some stuff that can work. Of course, we'll need the final actual points rather than the ones in the book or the temporary ones from the dataslate that go with the old profiles of the units.
Locally, there is one player building the Ravenwing detachment. He thinks there is some potential there. We shall see.
I think the DW detachment has some utility.
The bigger issue for me is none of the detachments really excite me enough to not use the Vanguard Spearhead, which is what I've been enjoying fielding.
The issue for me is not finding the one special secret sauce list that will work, or that we can just play green space marines from codex, it’s that so many DA specific units will be relegated to shelf due to their reduced stat lines. It already sucks that the army lost bikes, attack bikes, speeders, talonmaster, Deathwing command squad, ccs in terminator squads, but what remains they actually made worse!
It’s like eating a gak-sandwich and then get kicked in the gonads while eating it!!
Deathwing knights got worse.
Bladeguard are better than the new companions (who look great!)
Vengeance got a nerf for no good reason.
Lion is now worse in close combat than Guilleman (at least his weapon is)
The Ravenwing detachment is the only good part of the book, and I barely have any models that I can now use in it.
The sad part is nothing first born will survive the 11th ed culling, so it's the best time to get sell off any Blackknights and Darkshrouds you have left. Even Rhinos are possibly facing squatting. A few years from now they'll bring back Tactical squads but composed of Primaris models, if not, then the Space Marine army will be trying to mirror the Aeldari one with aspect warriors as a design metric.
I was lucky enough to get a Deathwing Assault box. Its funny reading the Codex and wondering who synchronizes GW efforts. The fluff section of the Codex has Talonmasters and Strikemasters...Salt in the wounds...Still, this is a Tactics thread so lets leave the salt for General Discussion. Oh yeah..Anyway.
My games recently have been with the Index and new MFM points as I am preparing for a five-round tourney this weekend that will use the DA Index. Locally (and I think this is common) we don't use a Codex in tourney play if it is only available in a special box - we wait for it to be in general release.
I've tried out Deathwing Knights with Damage 2 maces and yes, the downgrade is real... We don't have the points, but it is hard to see the place for the new Deathwing Knights (and also Inner Circle Companions) in an economy where Bladeguard are 180 points for six. Still, the models are wonderful so I am trying to find the brightside.
Deathwing Knights are still very survivable and they can deep strike. Looking at the Inner Circle Task Force I can see a build that leans into this. Take at least one Deathwing Knights squad and attach a character with the Deathwing Assault enhancement. Select Fixed Secondaries with Behind Enemy Lines and Deploy Teleport Homers. Turn 1 - drop in the Deathwing Knights somewhere safe, using Relic Teleportarium if the enemy deployment zone is too crowded. Deploy Teleport Homer for 4VP and just sit there for 2 VP on Behind Enemy Lines if nothing else can make it in. They will likely survive the enemy's turn, aided by Unmatched Fortitude or Armour of Contempt depending on the threat. Turn 2 the Inceptors drop in, allowing you to max both Secondaries. The Deathwing Knights just focus on staying alive, since as long as they don't charge or become Battle Shocked they can deploy teleport homers. Turn 3 Scouts come in from strat reserve. Keep going to get those Secondaries - Deathwing Knights just staying alive. Dropping in a Deathwing Terminator Squad on Turn 2 using Relic Teleportarium to join the Knights could be another way to max. Meanwhile the rest of the army is playing the Primary game, and back-field pressure is never a bad thing.
Would struggle against a board control army that can fill its Deployment Zone, keeping in mind that Relic Teleportarium can allow for some tight drops. You can always change gears if the match-up is unfavourable.
Yes, I'm reaching. But I will try it out once the tourney is over.
Gibblets wrote: The sad part is nothing first born will survive the 11th ed culling, so it's the best time to get sell off any Blackknights and Darkshrouds you have left. Even Rhinos are possibly facing squatting. A few years from now they'll bring back Tactical squads but composed of Primaris models, if not, then the Space Marine army will be trying to mirror the Aeldari one with aspect warriors as a design metric.
They've already got Tactical Primaris - Intercessors and Assault Intercessors do the two types of "tactical" marines now - Tacs/Sword Brethren etc...
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Sarigar wrote: I can empathize. Since the introduction of Primaris, I'm not surprised over the loss of RW units.
I did have some hope regarding Deathwing when I saw the new Terminator sculpts arriving in 10th. Alas, it was not to be.
I expect at least some of the lost units to return - mainly the two lieutenants - moving black knight/command squads to the outrider base. Probably the Talonmaster as well.
Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.
Gibblets wrote: Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.
They have two weapon profiles. Intercessors can have two Auxiliary Grenade Launchers which is the Primaris equivalent of 1 Special + 1 Heavy for the "Tactical Squad".
Meh. It is what it is. The game has evolved vastly since the late 80s.
I'm hoping somebody will unlock tactics I haven't come up with to play the DA detachments. Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to but my current list is only using Azrael as the only DA specific unit.
Sarigar wrote: Meh. It is what it is. The game has evolved vastly since the late 80s.
I'm hoping somebody will unlock tactics I haven't come up with to play the DA detachments. Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to but my current list is only using Azrael as the only DA specific unit.
Ahh, I see you're an optimist. I'm just hoping GWFAQ/Fixes the Inner Circle Detachment soon after the official release.
I am glad I have the flexibility to use detachments from the Space Marine Codex and DA supplement.
It is funny as a long time friend who has not played since 2nd edition asked if the curse is still with DA. He had dubbed the DA cursed when the 2nd ed codex, Angels of Death, was released. The rules for DA were so bad compared to the Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Blood Angels.
I told him, yes, the curse continues. They were good (DW build) in 9th and maybe sometime in previous editions, but they seemingly take a back seat to other chapters.
To be honest, I thought about converting a model to represent Marneus Calgar but remain in my themed DA colors. Uriel Ventris is a simple 'conversion'.
I got to play with (3) Centurions last night after the Balance Dataslate using the Vanguard Spearhead. I've got a feeling that unit will start showing up in more non Ultramarines lists. It performed really well.
Gibblets wrote: Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.
Black templar being the last two editions marines+, do have the option of taking heavy flamer in their primaris squads. Had them as an option for squads, before the all-flamer squad became a thing in 10th ed.
Played in a five-round local tournament this weekend. The Dark Angels Index was still in effect. I took a Gladius Task Force with
Spoiler:
- Azrael, ten Hellblasters and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant;
- Deathwing Command Squad (last march?);
- Deathwing Knights (five);
- two Infiltrator Squads and one Phobos Librarian;
- two Scout Squads
- Terminator Captain
- Stormspeeder Thunderstrike
- Gladiator Lancer
- Predator Annihilator
- Assault Bolter Inceptors
Game 1 - Take and Hold vs...Dark Angels
He went Ravenwing Black Knight heavy with Sammael and a Talonmaster along with the Lion, supported by two Redemptors, some Scouts and one Intercessor Squad. I don't think he took enough infantry to go with the Lion. He deployed as far forward as he could with his Redemptors, while I kept my stuff out of LOS. I got first turn and picked up both Redemptors. Over the next two turns I took down all the Black Knights and the Lion with a combination of Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights (and the tanks). He drew some tough initial Secondaries while I drew some easy ones to get going. A 90-5 tabling.
Game 2 - Sites of Power vs Death Guard
He had Mortarian, a Landraider, a Rhino, two Plague Marine squads with those Grenade leaders, five Deathshroud terminators, some cultists, two of those Fleshmower things, Typhus and a bunch of pox-walkers. Our first turn was very cagey, but he did made a move with Mortarian and the Rhino while his poxwalkers pushed my left flank.The Hellblasters and the tanks took down Motarian while the Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Command Squad took down a Fleshmower and the Rhino. He brought in the Deathshroud behind some ruins but they failed their charge. In turn 3 the Deathwing Knights and the by now much-reduced Hellblasters took out the Deathshroud with plasma, mace and Sword of Secrets. This did, though, draw my out of position on my right flank. By the end pretty much all he had left was the Poxwalkers and Typhus, but by now they had taken my left flank and my home objective. A very close, swingy game where I lost by four points. The final charge by Typhus won the match, but this was set up by me overdoing it on the Deathshroud. So a 57 to 61 loss.
Game 3 - Scorched Earth vs Canoptech Court Necrons
He had two big units of Wraiths, a unit of Immortals and a unit of Warriors, six Heavy Destroyers and two Doomsday Arcs. He had first turn and was all over my poor Scouts in the open table quarters. I was able to kill the right flank Wraiths with my entire army on the board (Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights doing the work). His Doomsday Arcs and Destroyers moved on my Deathwing Knights, killing four. This put them both in the open. My tanks moved out and killed one while the Hellblasters and Deathwing Command squad killed the other, plus some incautious Heavy Destroyers. A mad scrap broke out in the centre and my left flank. I lost the Command Squad and an Infiltator Squad but I was able to crack back enough with Hellblasters and the tanks to pull out a 60 to 54 win.
Game 4 - Priority Targets vs Tau on Hammer and Anvil
He had a six-strong brick of Crisis Suits with a Commander, another small unit, two units of Breachers, two Hammerheads, three Broadsides, a Stormsurge and three units of those stealthy suits. This looked like a tough matchup so I placed my Hellblaster in Strat Reserve along with the Deathwing Knights and Inceptors. I had first turn and was able to take out one of the stealthy units plus a Hammerhead. His turn took out my Lancer, the Deathwind Command Squad and my central Scouts. It looked bleak, but I still had reserves. I took down the Crisis Suits with the Hellblasters, but most of this was through overwatch and shooting on death when he then return fire. The Deathwing Knights took out the Tau backfield, but my own force by Turn 5 were down to them a single Infiltrator Squad. A 52 to 83 loss. I never really felt in this game and I was just trying to scrape VPs. I over-committed my armour on Turn 1 to kill a single Hammerhead, and I also sacrificed the Deathwing Command Squad early for some VPs. So not my best game!
Game 5 - Vital Ground vs Space Wolves (Stormlance)
He had a maxed-out Outrider Squad with a Chaplain, ten Terminators, five Terminators, a Ballistus, Long Fangs, a Thunderstrike, six Aggressors with an Apothecary Biologis and three Thunderwolf Cavalry. I had first turn and felt pretty good until my tanks whiffed against the Ballistus. My Hellblasters did kill the Thunderwolf but they were now reachable by the enemy Bikes. My Lancer died to his Longfangs and Ballistus. His bikes rolled in and by end of the Shooting and Fight Phase only Azrael was left. Overwatch and revenge shooting, though, plus some Azrael melee did kill the Mariocart bike and three Outriders. The Deathwing Knights charged in on Turn 2 to help out while the Deathwing Command Squad dropped in to charge the Aggressors (my Oath). A great round of melee (aided by the use of two Honour the Chapter strats) wiped out the Aggressors and the Bikes/Chaplain. His Terminators were well screened out by my forces so they dropped into places that were not all that great. The Deathwing Command Squad and Inceptors took the enemy home objective (Capture Enemy Outpost). They then fell to his Terminators but I was now well ahead on points. Final score 72-21.
So I went 3-2 and came 9th out of 30. The Deathguard list won the tourney (5-0), with Chaos Daemons, Ultramarines (Ironstorm), Orks, Astra Militarum and Tyranids rounding out the top 6 going 4-1 each. I was happy with my list, but I might drop the Predator and one Infiltrator Squad to add another Lancer. The Azrael, Lieutenant with Fire Discipline walking with ten Hellblasters did a lot of serious lifting, but they do suffer against long-range/long threat range shooting. The Deathwing Command Squad would go (and will have to go) for either Bladeguard or just a Deathwing Terminator Squad. I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.
Azrael, ten Hellblasters and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant;
- two Infiltrator Squads and one Phobos Librarian;
I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.
I'm not sure the LT is the optimal choice - Lethal Hits is nice on Plasma but I'm not sure it's better than Narthecium (Ressurection 1) But I think it's close, especially if using them "off label" vs a T12ish tank/monster.
I love surrounding primarchs with a Phobos Libby led Infiltrator Squad. The Infiltrators don't provide much killing power, but the Libby can lend the Primarch a hand here and there.
Gladius probably is the best all rounder, but I also think not enough people have devoted enough effort to emphasis (between leaning and full on skew) in the other Dets - especially cross flavor i.e. Tanks in the Raven Guard harder to shoot at list.
As for the Dark Angel Dets, I'd wait a while on those.
The Grim Resolve on is still bad because morale is generally a bad mechanic. Combine that with it being "back loaded" like the Sisters Miracle Dice such that you have less stuff that can be influenced by the Mario Mushroom Powerup because you have to lose some to earn it and it's a double whammy.
The Deathwing Det is currently bad, but could be good when/if they fix the keyword probelms. Only Terminator Characters can get the Enhancements, even as they added a crapton of power armor units to the Deathwing. Top that off with the Lion not being in the Deathwing and Not A Terminator so he can't use any of the strats either... I don't think this was intentional, I think the guy who wrote this Det spent more time on his pot brownies than his writing.
The Hunter one isn't bad. I think the Lightning Assault Det is 6 of one vs 5 of another better, but that's small enough you can pull some gotchas or something.
Nice writeup as always, TTB. Nice to get a "last hurrah" for the Index units like the Deathwing Command Squad, I suppose. Mine will probably live on as a regular Terminator Ancient, a Deathwing Knight Master (Champion) and a regular Terminator with a chainfist (Apothecary). It sounds like your DA opponent was thinking the same since he had a Talonmaster (RIP to a real one there).
Breton, I notice you have mentioned the Deathwing detachment as being bad; why is it bad? It's true that The Lion has no stratagem support in it, but that just means you don't take him in that detachment. I look forward to abusing the crap out of giving the Deathwing keyword to units that would not otherwise have it (like Azrael with Hellblasters; is there any detachment where that unit is bad?), at least until GW catches on to it and nerfs it like they did with Necron Canoptek Court. Personally I think the Inner Circle detachment is probably the best of the three DA ones, although I think the Company of Hunters could have some potential as well in the hands of a skilled player (some decent movement tricks in there). The Unforgiven Task Force is just a worse Gladius and you should just run a Gladius if you were thinking of taking it competitively.
One thing I've been considering recently is using the Firestorm Assault Force and converting up my own DA versions of the two Salamanders characters (Vulkan He'stan and Adrax Agatone), but at that point I guess I'm not really running DA any more am I? It still might be fun to do the conversions.
@ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.
I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.
Azrael, ten Hellblasters and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant;
- two Infiltrator Squads and one Phobos Librarian;
I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.
I'm not sure the LT is the optimal choice - Lethal Hits is nice on Plasma but I'm not sure it's better than Narthecium (Ressurection 1) But I think it's close, especially if using them "off label" vs a T12ish tank/monster.
I love surrounding primarchs with a Phobos Libby led Infiltrator Squad. The Infiltrators don't provide much killing power, but the Libby can lend the Primarch a hand here and there.
Gladius probably is the best all rounder, but I also think not enough people have devoted enough effort to emphasis (between leaning and full on skew) in the other Dets - especially cross flavor i.e. Tanks in the Raven Guard harder to shoot at list.
As for the Dark Angel Dets, I'd wait a while on those.
The Grim Resolve on is still bad because morale is generally a bad mechanic. Combine that with it being "back loaded" like the Sisters Miracle Dice such that you have less stuff that can be influenced by the Mario Mushroom Powerup because you have to lose some to earn it and it's a double whammy.
The Deathwing Det is currently bad, but could be good when/if they fix the keyword probelms. Only Terminator Characters can get the Enhancements, even as they added a crapton of power armor units to the Deathwing. Top that off with the Lion not being in the Deathwing and Not A Terminator so he can't use any of the strats either... I don't think this was intentional, I think the guy who wrote this Det spent more time on his pot brownies than his writing.
The Hunter one isn't bad. I think the Lightning Assault Det is 6 of one vs 5 of another better, but that's small enough you can pull some gotchas or something.
Good points. Since 10th dropped I've gone back on forth between Lieutenants and Apothecaries for the Hellblasters. With old Oath of Moment you could reasonably rely on re-rolls to wound vs tougher opponents, and when I was trying to make the Unforgiven Task Force work I could use the Unforgiven Fury strat for Lethal Wounds. So I did run an Apothecary with Azrael for a while. Resurrecting a single Hellblaster is good in theory, but I find its more about maximizing killing-power these days. Fire Discipline and Azrael are a little redundant in terms of Sustained 1, but having access to Sustained and Lethals on 5+ when in Devastator Doctrine has made the Hellblasters able to really hit hard.
Infiltrators (or Incursors I suppose) with a Phobos Librarian would be a great escort for the Lion! I ran the Lion for a bit early-on, but he is mostly a display piece now. Sad.
There were three other Dark Angels this weekend at the tourney, two with the Lion and one with a Vanguard Spearhead with ten Deathwing Knights. They had a tough tourney. The Lion can only really affect one area of the table. While ten infiltrating Deathwing Knights sounds awesome, they can be isolated and ignored. Of note, three of us had the Azrael-Hellblaster deathball. I paired mine with some long-range firepower in the form of tanks which meant that in most games I could be somewhat conservative with them (messed that up in my last game). I think the other lists suffered against opponents who had lots of D2 long-range firepower (which is out there).
I've been theory-hammering the new Detachments, but I am looking forward to on-table experience. Having said that, I agree that the Unforgiven Task Force is a miss. It was evident that the Index writers didn't have much table-time with 10th when they designed around Battle Shock, and with an early Codex release there was no time to fix it. So I don't think it will get much play.
I am less pessimistic about the Inner Circle Task Force. It is quite restrictive, and perhaps this should have been applied to some of the main Space Marine Codex ones as well? Still, I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters to be able to employ a couple of those enhancements to good effect (Deathwing Assault and Singular Will look good to me). A Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault leading a Terminator squad along with an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will could put some real early pressure on an opponent.
I will give the Ravenwing one a spin, as I have plenty of Black Knights. It should play the missions well, but it seems to be missing something. Like our old datasheets!
Sarigar wrote: @ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.
I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.
Yes, but infernus marines don't have eldar stratagems or the gigantic movment. My army has access to quad flamer teleporting squads, with access to mists of deimos, and we still don't use them, because they are just bad. Infernus are the feels bad meta choice, when you know your buddy is bringing his guant swarm army, and you waltz in with 30 of those dudes.
ZergSmasher wrote: Nice writeup as always, TTB. Nice to get a "last hurrah" for the Index units like the Deathwing Command Squad, I suppose. Mine will probably live on as a regular Terminator Ancient, a Deathwing Knight Master (Champion) and a regular Terminator with a chainfist (Apothecary). It sounds like your DA opponent was thinking the same since he had a Talonmaster (RIP to a real one there).
Breton, I notice you have mentioned the Deathwing detachment as being bad; why is it bad? It's true that The Lion has no stratagem support in it, but that just means you don't take him in that detachment. I look forward to abusing the crap out of giving the Deathwing keyword to units that would not otherwise have it (like Azrael with Hellblasters; is there any detachment where that unit is bad?), at least until GW catches on to it and nerfs it like they did with Necron Canoptek Court. Personally I think the Inner Circle detachment is probably the best of the three DA ones, although I think the Company of Hunters could have some potential as well in the hands of a skilled player (some decent movement tricks in there). The Unforgiven Task Force is just a worse Gladius and you should just run a Gladius if you were thinking of taking it competitively.
One thing I've been considering recently is using the Firestorm Assault Force and converting up my own DA versions of the two Salamanders characters (Vulkan He'stan and Adrax Agatone), but at that point I guess I'm not really running DA any more am I? It still might be fun to do the conversions.
Not taking The Lion in the Inner Circle Detachment isn't a solution, its surrender to the Det being bad. Is there any individual more "Inner Circle" than the Primarch of the Legion/Chapter? Is it bad enough Guilliman got to keep D2 Sweep, AND valid target for each of his Gladius strats, but the Lion isn't Inner Circle Enough use the strategies his technically inferior gene sons have come up with?
In addition to the faction-wide problems of non-standard armor (Bike/Gravis/Terminator/Jump/Etc) HQs being between thin and anorexic for all these new Dets to pile on with absentee keywords and Like-to-like Armor attachment requirements just makes it worse.
Bladeguard are now Deathwing. The Captain and Lieutenant in Bladeguard gear are not. So if they lead the unit, they can't get an enhancement. Neither can Power Armored Chaplains or Judiciars that came in the same box/kit and were designed to work with/lead/attach to them. The same is true for the other Van/Stern-Guard Veterans The Jump Captain that can lead the Deathwing Vanguard Vets is not himself Deathwing.
The second best HQ choice for the Inner Circle Companions is the power armored regular Librarian. Which is not Deathwing, and can't get an enhancement. Even though all Libbies were Deathwing, today they... aren't.
The Storm Raven is also no longer Deathwing either. Its Ravenwing. Even though its the flying Land Raider Terminator Transport, and can't transport... bikes. But Hey, it can also transport... Dreadnaughts. Which are now all Deathwing.
Someone doing a Primaris Successor Chapter - thus trying to avoid/reduce the Terminators - will be hard pressed to assign an enhancement to an HQ.
Infiltrators (or Incursors I suppose) with a Phobos Librarian would be a great escort for the Lion! I ran the Lion for a bit early-on, but he is mostly a display piece now. Sad.
There were three other Dark Angels this weekend at the tourney, two with the Lion and one with a Vanguard Spearhead with ten Deathwing Knights. They had a tough tourney. The Lion can only really affect one area of the table. While ten infiltrating Deathwing Knights sounds awesome, they can be isolated and ignored. Of note, three of us had the Azrael-Hellblaster deathball. I paired mine with some long-range firepower in the form of tanks which meant that in most games I could be somewhat conservative with them (messed that up in my last game). I think the other lists suffered against opponents who had lots of D2 long-range firepower (which is out there).
I've been theory-hammering the new Detachments, but I am looking forward to on-table experience. Having said that, I agree that the Unforgiven Task Force is a miss. It was evident that the Index writers didn't have much table-time with 10th when they designed around Battle Shock, and with an early Codex release there was no time to fix it. So I don't think it will get much play.
I am less pessimistic about the Inner Circle Task Force. It is quite restrictive, and perhaps this should have been applied to some of the main Space Marine Codex ones as well? Still, I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters to be able to employ a couple of those enhancements to good effect (Deathwing Assault and Singular Will look good to me). A Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault leading a Terminator squad along with an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will could put some real early pressure on an opponent.
I will give the Ravenwing one a spin, as I have plenty of Black Knights. It should play the missions well, but it seems to be missing something. Like our old datasheets!
Incursors will work, but Infiltrators work better. Incursors led by a Phobos libby give everyone the can't be shot outside 12 thing and -1 to Hit even if they are that close, but Infiltrators also add the Can't Deep Strike within 12". So the only way to shoot at those guys is to actually run something up to them - and you have more control over that than they do because you have the option of backing off, or rolling up with the Lion and the Phobos Libby to smack stuff that gets too close. Very few things by themselves can counter that level of area denial.
I don't think the problem with the Unforgiven is they didn't have much time with Battleshock, the problem is they don't want to make Battleshock a "phase" of the game - i.e. there are shooting armies, there are fighting armies, there are both armies. There aren't very many morale armies, because they don't want to make morale a strategy/theme sadly.
"I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters" - As you can see in my immediately previous reply, the only non-Epic Hero HQs that get the Deathwing keyword get it because they have the TERMINATOR keyword. Not only can the Lion not use the Deathwing Strats, neither can the Storm Raven dropping off your Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Dread. Because its been moved to the Ravenwing.
Sarigar wrote: @ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.
I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.
Yes, but infernus marines don't have eldar stratagems or the gigantic movment. My army has access to quad flamer teleporting squads, with access to mists of deimos, and we still don't use them, because they are just bad. Infernus are the feels bad meta choice, when you know your buddy is bringing his guant swarm army, and you waltz in with 30 of those dudes.
I just want them to make Flamers work a LITTLE better so they're a decent and thoughtful choice.
Wow I didn't realize the keywords in the supplement were that screwed up. I take it back, Inner Circle is not the good option I thought it was, no reason to buy that POS book at all.
I feel that the only stand-out enhancement that you miss out on with non-Terminator non-Epic Hero is the Deathwing Assault, which I am guessing you want to put on a Captain with Jump Pack to go with Vanguard Veterans. Perhaps it is copiumon my part, but I am OK with that restriction. Bladeguard wanting to take advantage of the 6" pile in/consolidate enhancement could have a Bladeguard Ancient with them. Not as elegant as a Captain with the Bladeguard gear, but hey, its an option. I am planning to run Ezekiel or Asmodai with my Bladeguard. But your mileage may vary!
I am not sure what benefit having the Deathwing keyword on the Stormraven would have? I agree that the Lion is a sad panda in the Codex, but this is before even considering the Inner Circle detachment and really, he isn't all that competitive now. He clearly annoyed someone on the staff and that is that.
The Inner Circle Task Force does have more restrictions than the main Codex ones. The detachment rule itself is more situational/conditional than the other ones. I will still see if there is some play in there. My rough idea is:
Azrael with Hellblasters and a Lt - makes the unit Deathwing Infantry so they can get the +1 to wound against targets on the oath objective. Situational, but its something. Can also use Unmatched Fortitude to obtain some additional protection against those shooting attacks that punish Hellblasters. Mounted in a Landraider.
Ezekiel with six Bladeguard in a Drop Pod. Pressure unit that can also try some character sniping tricks.
Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault and an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will. These go with a unit of Deathwing Terminators. Toying with either a big brick of 10 or two five-man units for flexibility /board control.
This is all backed up by Scouts, Infiltrators and a Lancer. Concept is match-up dependent, but it has the ability to apply pressure early in the opponent's deployment zone and there are some fixed secondary options. Horde armies will deny that to some extent, but then it can still put mid-field pressure early.
Gibblets wrote: Wow I didn't realize the keywords in the supplement were that screwed up. I take it back, Inner Circle is not the good option I thought it was, no reason to buy that POS book at all.
Given how delayed the book has been between Deathwing Assault and going on a solo pre-order I'm pretty much assuming its delayed because they're working an "Official" Release Date FAQ
What was it for 40K Pre Orders?
2/3 PreOrder the book - Book leaked online, forums begin disecting.
2/10 Empty Pre-Order Week
2/17 Unrelated Pre Order week
Eventually 2/24 Pre-Order the Codex
3/3 ish - Codex Officially Releases.
I'm thinking they crawled the forums after the "leak" for reviews and bumped the standalone release to write the FAQ with what we came up with. And once the keyword problems resolve, we're (mostly) back to where everyone thought they were.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I feel that the only stand-out enhancement that you miss out on with non-Terminator non-Epic Hero is the Deathwing Assault, which I am guessing you want to put on a Captain with Jump Pack to go with Vanguard Veterans.
You miss out on all of them. None of the (Non-Epic-Hero which can't get an enhancement anyway) Power Armored traditionally DEATHWING HQs have the DEATHWING keyword or any way to get the keyword. No Power Armored HQ/character can get an enhancement. If you build a Power Armor Deathwing force, none of the HQ's can get the Enhancement. None. You're not missing out on "the best one" you're missing out on ALL of them unless you take an HQ with the TERMINATOR keyword to give them the DEATHWING keyword.
Perhaps it is copiumon my part, but I am OK with that restriction. Bladeguard wanting to take advantage of the 6" pile in/consolidate enhancement could have a Bladeguard Ancient with them. Not as elegant as a Captain with the Bladeguard gear, but hey, its an option. I am planning to run Ezekiel or Asmodai with my Bladeguard. But your mileage may vary!
I am not sure what benefit having the Deathwing keyword on the Stormraven would have? I agree that the Lion is a sad panda in the Codex, but this is before even considering the Inner Circle detachment and really, he isn't all that competitive now. He clearly annoyed someone on the staff and that is that.
The Blade Guard Ancient kind of sucks. As for the benefit of the DEATHWING keyword on the Stormraven? The same benefit the Lion would get. EVERY Det strat (i.e. all of them but the one AOC Strat they put in every Det) requires at least the Deathwing Keyword, some get even more specific, but basically none of the Det strats can be used on the now stupidly Ravenwing flyer designed to carry Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Dreadnaughts.
The Inner Circle Task Force does have more restrictions than the main Codex ones. The detachment rule itself is more situational/conditional than the other ones. I will still see if there is some play in there. My rough idea is:
Azrael with Hellblasters and a Lt - makes the unit Deathwing Infantry so they can get the +1 to wound against targets on the oath objective. Situational, but its something. Can also use Unmatched Fortitude to obtain some additional protection against those shooting attacks that punish Hellblasters. Mounted in a Landraider.
Ezekiel with six Bladeguard in a Drop Pod. Pressure unit that can also try some character sniping tricks.
Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault and an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will. These go with a unit of Deathwing Terminators. Toying with either a big brick of 10 or two five-man units for flexibility /board control.
This is all backed up by Scouts, Infiltrators and a Lancer. Concept is match-up dependent, but it has the ability to apply pressure early in the opponent's deployment zone and there are some fixed secondary options. Horde armies will deny that to some extent, but then it can still put mid-field pressure early.
Or I will stick with Gladius.
Your concept is pretty much proving my point - you're using Epic Heroes who already usually have some sort of bespoke Enhancement, with a bunch of non-Deathwing stuff that won't qualify for Strats (scounts, Infiltratros, and Lancers). The design space for a Primaris Successor Chapter or just someone who wants to do a Power Armor Mix Deathwing without Epic Heroes is pretty much null. Your concept was a little Deathwing and your Gladus List combos. And even before the post ended you're giving up and sticking with Gladius.
My line about enhancements wasn’t very clear - the only standout enhancement is the Deathwing Assault one. It would be powerful on a Jump Captain.
I usually find myself usually returning to Gladius, but I will take these for a spin regardless.
It is clear to me that the Inner Circle detachment is envisioned as a Terminator-based one. You have plenty of character options for that route. Could they FAQ-in some additional Captain configurations? Sure.
I am hoping that they FAQ the Watchers to work against Dev Wounds myself. Data sheet changes are rare these days, but Inner Circle Companions could sure use AP -2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Stormraven, there are no Inner Circle strats outside the ubiquitous Armour of Contempt that the Stormraven could use even if it had the Deathwing keyword. So not having the Deathwing keyword is not really hurting the Stormraven.
There is no real point to their having given Deathwing to Landraiders. The detachment rule would have to change to “Deathwing unit” from “Deathwing Infantry unit” for the vehicles to benefit.
It does seem that the writer was in the transition from 9th to 10th when they wrote the supplement. The 9th Ed 1st Company bit required things like common keywords to gain the benefit. Which is now gone, but the writer was still adding keywords to things that don’t need/use them.
But we play with what we have and not what we wish we had.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: My line about enhancements wasn’t very clear - the only standout enhancement is the Deathwing Assault one. It would be powerful on a Jump Captain.
I usually find myself usually returning to Gladius, but I will take these for a spin regardless.
It is clear to me that the Inner Circle detachment is envisioned as a Terminator-based one. You have plenty of character options for that route. Could they FAQ-in some additional Captain configurations? Sure.
I am hoping that they FAQ the Watchers to work against Dev Wounds myself. Data sheet changes are rare these days, but Inner Circle Companions could sure use AP -2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Stormraven, there are no Inner Circle strats outside the ubiquitous Armour of Contempt that the Stormraven could use even if it had the Deathwing keyword. So not having the Deathwing keyword is not really hurting the Stormraven.
There is no real point to their having given Deathwing to Landraiders. The detachment rule would have to change to “Deathwing unit” from “Deathwing Infantry unit” for the vehicles to benefit.
It does seem that the writer was in the transition from 9th to 10th when they wrote the supplement. The 9th Ed 1st Company bit required things like common keywords to gain the benefit. Which is now gone, but the writer was still adding keywords to things that don’t need/use them.
But we play with what we have and not what we wish we had.
Deathwing Assault on a Jump Captain isn't bad (and I'm not seeing all that many things that prevent a Turn 1 Deep Strike anyway: This is for protection from that or the rare occasion you put something in Strategic Reserves that can also Deep Strike for edge cases?), but I think its still better on the Terminators. 10 Terminators dropping Turn 1 Not Within 9 charing 9+ to get within engagement range with a (Captain) reroll is ~40% or 10 Terminators wtith (Libby) SH1 within 9 for Rapid Fire Storm Bolters are both usually better than Distraction Carnifexing some Jump Intercessors and a Captain (IF Vanguard Vets Inferno Pistols had an 8 Inch range then I could see doing a VV Melta Bomb with a Captain using a Within 3) . Maybe the value of the Enhancement changes with House Rules but that's not something to be considered in the Official Rules like this. Or Maybe I'm missing a FAQ/Design/Rule We Didn't Tell Everyone About. I just tried a Search with CTRL+F-ind in Page and nothing leapt out at me. To my eye the big one of the four is Singular Will. Deep Strike Just Over 9", charge 9, get at least 1 of your guys is JUST within 1" of the enemy unit, eveyone else piles in 6" and you get a crap ton more power fists in range instead of strung out behind the fight. Plus edge cases where you pile into something you couldn't have charged, but you're still in engagement range with them now. And you get to Consolidate 6 after fighting which can slingshot you into the next unit for your next Charge or Heroic Intervention. At that point the Terminators are moving further with Consolidation than they are their movement phase.
I'd disagree about the Inner Circle being a Terminator based Det. If that were the case they wouldn't have included all the -Guard Veteran units into the Deathwing. They didn't do it for the fluff, because they also did NOT include the HQ's. They could have stopped at Terminator keyword, and been done. They built it to include the -Guard Veteras, and (sell even more of) the Inner Circle Companions, then kicked themselves in the junk by forgetting to support those units.
You're right, I was so busy counting DEATHWING keywords I skipped over the INFANTRY keywords - which will also exclude the Lion. Man they blew it on this Det.
So I'll revise. Deathwing should be the single keyword, it should be passed around to the units that are traditionally Deathwing (Libbies, Shield-weilding Captains and Lieutenants, the now merged but used to be Interrogator Chaplains) - especially with an eye to supporting the relatively new and recently added power armor units as well as the Termaintors, the Lion should get the Deathwing keyword (and if they ever make The Lion On Super Huge Outrider Bike he should get the Ravenwing keyword) The Storm Raven should be explicitly Deathwing and probably exempted from Ravenwing. While I think GW drops the ball a lot, I also have some faith. The codex leak and the value box release about 2 and a half weeks ago without the stand alone release despite several empty weeks in between - it does not appear to be on the list for this weekend. I'm hoping it was supposed to release but they've delayed it for a release day FAQ.
Took an Inner Circle Task Force for a stroll today - opponent was cool with my trying the Codex before official release date.
I had a Terminator Captain (Deathwing Assault) with a ten-man Deathwing Squad, a Terminator Chaplain (Singular Will) with Deathwing Knights with swords, Ezekiel and six Bladeguard, a five-man Deathwing Squad, two Scout Squads, an Infiltrator Squad, a Land Raider and a Land Raider Crusader. I was looking to try out the ability to put early pressure with Deathwing Assault along with Ezekiel's cool character-sniping powers.
I faced new Drukhari with a bunch of Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Kabalites, Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges. We played Take and Hold on . She had first drop and we alternated infiltrators which already started to back-foot my plan for early Deathwing pressure. With all her Dark Lances I kept my Land Raiders fairly deep behind cover, with Ezekiel's groups on the left in the Land Raider and the Knights in the Crusader in the middle.
She got first turn and scooped up a Scout squad while flooding the board with units. She had a Venom loaded with an Archon and Incubi on my left, a Raider with Kabalites and an Archon in the centre and a Venom with Drazzar and Incubi on my right. I focused on my left and centre, and Deathwing Assaulted my ten-man squad...into my deployment zone since there was nothing else really available and I did want to charge. The left-flank Land Raider popped the Archon's Venom, setting Ezekiel up for an epic character snipe. He hit with Mind Wipe, but I rolled a 1 for the Wound. I gambled and CP rerolled it, into a 3. The Archon saved it and I then rolled a 1 for my Hazardous. Oh dear.
A Scout sniper was able to cause the Archon to fail an Invul - rolling 1s was quite contagious while other fire took down three of the Incubi. In the centre a hail of Cyclone missiles, Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons failed to kill a Raider, but did wound it. The Bladeguard took down the Archon and the last Incubi while the sword-Knights took out the Raider. Go Chaplain with the +1 to Wound. The Knight piled-into the dismounted Kabalites due to the enhancement.
From here the Drukhari were on the backfoot. A hail of Dark Lance fire into the Deathwing Knights only killed one, their resilience aided by Unmatched Fortitude. By the end of the game I had lost the five-man Deathwing Squad to Drazzar and the Incubi, but the Deathwing Knights chewed through another Kabalite squad and the third Incubi squad, sezing the Drukhari home objective along the way. The big Deathwing Squad fended off Drazzar and his Incubi plus Lilith and some Witches.
A fun if wonky game.
The Inner Circle Task Force detachment rule really didn't come into play. To be fair, wounding is not the usual issue vs Drukhari, but it rarely if ever came up. A cagey opponent can keep their tough stuff off objectives - most of the time.
The Deathwing Assault enhancement kinda fizzled here, but at least they could go kinda where I wanted them on Turn 1 against an opponent who could flood the zone.
The extra pile-in and consolidate enhancement was impactful. Extra movement is good.
Ezekiel's troubles provided some comic relief. It coulda been cool to mind-swipe an Archon, but it was not to be.
I did use Martial Mastery in the big final scrum against Drazzar and Lelith's units. I was wounding on 2s, but rerolling when you have a bunch of attacks against a bunch of models is good.
So, the Deathwing Knights with swords did really well in their first game with me. Now, they were facing an optimum opponent (mostly elite 1W models with a few 2W models). If the points stay around the 200 to 235 range having one as a back-field bully could be viable.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Took an Inner Circle Task Force for a stroll today - opponent was cool with my trying the Codex before official release date.
I had a Terminator Captain (Deathwing Assault) with a ten-man Deathwing Squad, a Terminator Chaplain (Singular Will) with Deathwing Knights with swords, Ezekiel and six Bladeguard, a five-man Deathwing Squad, two Scout Squads, an Infiltrator Squad, a Land Raider and a Land Raider Crusader. I was looking to try out the ability to put early pressure with Deathwing Assault along with Ezekiel's cool character-sniping powers.
I faced new Drukhari with a bunch of Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Kabalites, Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges. We played Take and Hold on . She had first drop and we alternated infiltrators which already started to back-foot my plan for early Deathwing pressure. With all her Dark Lances I kept my Land Raiders fairly deep behind cover, with Ezekiel's groups on the left in the Land Raider and the Knights in the Crusader in the middle.
She got first turn and scooped up a Scout squad while flooding the board with units. She had a Venom loaded with an Archon and Incubi on my left, a Raider with Kabalites and an Archon in the centre and a Venom with Drazzar and Incubi on my right. I focused on my left and centre, and Deathwing Assaulted my ten-man squad...into my deployment zone since there was nothing else really available and I did want to charge. The left-flank Land Raider popped the Archon's Venom, setting Ezekiel up for an epic character snipe. He hit with Mind Wipe, but I rolled a 1 for the Wound. I gambled and CP rerolled it, into a 3. The Archon saved it and I then rolled a 1 for my Hazardous. Oh dear.
A Scout sniper was able to cause the Archon to fail an Invul - rolling 1s was quite contagious while other fire took down three of the Incubi. In the centre a hail of Cyclone missiles, Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons failed to kill a Raider, but did wound it. The Bladeguard took down the Archon and the last Incubi while the sword-Knights took out the Raider. Go Chaplain with the +1 to Wound. The Knight piled-into the dismounted Kabalites due to the enhancement.
From here the Drukhari were on the backfoot. A hail of Dark Lance fire into the Deathwing Knights only killed one, their resilience aided by Unmatched Fortitude. By the end of the game I had lost the five-man Deathwing Squad to Drazzar and the Incubi, but the Deathwing Knights chewed through another Kabalite squad and the third Incubi squad, sezing the Drukhari home objective along the way. The big Deathwing Squad fended off Drazzar and his Incubi plus Lilith and some Witches.
A fun if wonky game.
The Inner Circle Task Force detachment rule really didn't come into play. To be fair, wounding is not the usual issue vs Drukhari, but it rarely if ever came up. A cagey opponent can keep their tough stuff off objectives - most of the time.
The Deathwing Assault enhancement kinda fizzled here, but at least they could go kinda where I wanted them on Turn 1 against an opponent who could flood the zone.
The extra pile-in and consolidate enhancement was impactful. Extra movement is good.
Ezekiel's troubles provided some comic relief. It coulda been cool to mind-swipe an Archon, but it was not to be.
I did use Martial Mastery in the big final scrum against Drazzar and Lelith's units. I was wounding on 2s, but rerolling when you have a bunch of attacks against a bunch of models is good.
So, the Deathwing Knights with swords did really well in their first game with me. Now, they were facing an optimum opponent (mostly elite 1W models with a few 2W models). If the points stay around the 200 to 235 range having one as a back-field bully could be viable.
Terminators of all stripes are pretty much decent but not good/great so yeah its not going to perform poorly. I do have a suggestion: If you're going to mix-match normal and Deathwing units, take a look at the 1st Company Task Force. Zeke forces a Battle-shock Test. Asmodai theoretically forces a LOT of them. Fear Made Manifest (Aura) makes failing Battle-Shock tests painful. Add in some Reivers to nosedive the test. Then really drop the bomb with Terrifying Proficiency to force tests (at another -1) on everyone within 6" in their command phase, after it would have worn off, killing models AND making them Battle-Shocked for a full battle round - their turn and your upcoming turn.
I mean putting it all together:
Reivers with Lieutenant (probably where you put the Fear Made Manifest (AURA): -1 to any/all tests in range
Zeke: Shooting phase Check (-1 from Reivers)
Asmodai: Character units within 6" test at -1 (-2 with Reiver) at the start of the fight phase.
- with Bladeguard Ginsu one unit to Unit Destroyed (Opening up Terrifying)
All Units within 6" Test at a -1 (Reivers) or potential -2(Half Strength) in the the opponent's next Command phase (so do it on your turn)
Any non-Monster/Vehicle unit that fails loses models. One turn (think the Terrifying turn) D3 models are lost for each failure.
Its a lot of wombo combo to line up, but its probably going to be unexpected. And Terrifying avoids the problem with most of the other Out-Of-Phase Battleshock problems i.e. Having it expire at the beginning on their next command phase and thus usually not lasting long enough to do anything. Vs typical MEQ 6+ you need the -2 to drop the probability to 41% (Less than 50%) So its not great, but its got shock value, and gets around X++ and FNP and most other layerable defenses. The Lone Operative characters (Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, Cyper, Techmarines/Warpsmiths, Shadowsun, Autarch Wayleaper, Deathjesters, Solitaires, etc) in range are REALLY screwed. They fail they die.
That is quite the Rube Goldberg machine of an army! While do have a bit of an inner-Johnny, at the end of the day I think I am more of a Spike. I like reliable power. It would be hilarious to pull-off, though, and making Reivers do something while in the worst Space Marine detachment would be a true Johnny gold medal!
I took my Inner Circle Task Force for another battle today, this time against Ultramarines Vanguard in The Relic with Table Quarters deployment. He had some different units than the usual Devastator Centurions, but a good test nonetheless.
The Deathwing Knights with swords did remarkably well again. They killed an Invictor Warsuit with weight of attacks boosted by a Terminator Chaplain's buff. They also buzz-sawed through Calgar, Victrix and a Company Heroes squad, ganking Ventris along the way. I'm enjoying Martial Mastery, as rerolls on Wounds are so hard to come by and Knights don't really need much help hitting.
The big Deathwing Squad with attached Captain was able to do a Turn 1 deepstrike in the enemy deployment zone and kill a key unit (full Jump Assault Intercessors) but then died to weight of fire and two scary charging units. This did, though, force him out of position and took virtually all his combat power while the rest of my force took no-mans land.
Unmatched Fortitude was money against the ten-strong Hellblaster Squad keeping a squad alive, and even caused two Lascannon shots to fail to wound. The squad still died, but this forced him to charge into his own backfield instead of being it the mid-field with the objectives. Baby transhuman is still something, and it is only 1 CP.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: That is quite the Rube Goldberg machine of an army! While do have a bit of an inner-Johnny, at the end of the day I think I am more of a Spike. I like reliable power. It would be hilarious to pull-off, though, and making Reivers do something while in the worst Space Marine detachment would be a true Johnny gold medal!
I took my Inner Circle Task Force for another battle today, this time against Ultramarines Vanguard in The Relic with Table Quarters deployment. He had some different units than the usual Devastator Centurions, but a good test nonetheless.
The Deathwing Knights with swords did remarkably well again. They killed an Invictor Warsuit with weight of attacks boosted by a Terminator Chaplain's buff. They also buzz-sawed through Calgar, Victrix and a Company Heroes squad, ganking Ventris along the way. I'm enjoying Martial Mastery, as rerolls on Wounds are so hard to come by and Knights don't really need much help hitting.
The big Deathwing Squad with attached Captain was able to do a Turn 1 deepstrike in the enemy deployment zone and kill a key unit (full Jump Assault Intercessors) but then died to weight of fire and two scary charging units. This did, though, force him out of position and took virtually all his combat power while the rest of my force took no-mans land.
Unmatched Fortitude was money against the ten-strong Hellblaster Squad keeping a squad alive, and even caused two Lascannon shots to fail to wound. The squad still died, but this forced him to charge into his own backfield instead of being it the mid-field with the objectives. Baby transhuman is still something, and it is only 1 CP.
I will keep messing around.
I'm not sure its quite unreliable - Its not reliable on any given turn, but turn over turn it'll do something., Its also not going to rack up the kills. I'd look at it as more a chronic disease. Mostly it'll be like arthritis - annoying and limiting but not deadly - occasionally it'll cause some cellular (model) death. Realistically the reason for doing it is Terrifying Proficiency. Get into a big multi-unit melee scrum, pop that off, and right after all the normal Battle-Shocks wear off, he's gotta take all new ones for those units AND if/when he fails they're battleshocked for an entire battle round. That's what makes Battleshock worthwhile (and kills it for all the out-of-phase applications because they don't last until his next-next Command Phase as opposed to the 20 seconds End of Turn takes after the Fight phase where they got battleshocked) And if you're going to play for that Strat, you may as well lean into it.
Edit to Add A question: What made the Jump Intercessors so key? I mean I get it, Smash Captain with a bodyguard, but we're not limited to the one captain anymore. Am I underestimating Jump Intercessors?
Were Calgar and Victrix in the Company Heroes Squad? They should have been in a BGV or close second Aggressor Squad. Calgar buffs them so much harder. I like him better in BGV but it's really hard to argue with 6 Aggressors Move. Advance. Gladius-Bomb/Shoot. Charge.
Personally I think people have been sleeping on Jump Intercessors. I'll probably be replacing one of my usual two Inceptor units with a 5-man squad to counter the points hike they took. In many games I don't need the 3-inch deep strike thing to get positional secondaries anyway. I'm not sure it's worth taking a 10-man with a Captain, at least for us Dark Angels, but maybe there's an enhancement or two that I'm not thinking of in one of the Marine detachments that could make them nasty.
ZergSmasher wrote: Personally I think people have been sleeping on Jump Intercessors. I'll probably be replacing one of my usual two Inceptor units with a 5-man squad to counter the points hike they took. In many games I don't need the 3-inch deep strike thing to get positional secondaries anyway. I'm not sure it's worth taking a 10-man with a Captain, at least for us Dark Angels, but maybe there's an enhancement or two that I'm not thinking of in one of the Marine detachments that could make them nasty.
Vanguard Spearhead The Blade Driven Deep (10 Infiltrating Jump Intercessors? A little nasty)
First Company Task Force The Imperium's Sword (1A every turn for the Smash Cap, +10 one time for the 10 man unit.)
I lean towards The Blade Driven Deep - 10+11 guys Infiltrate, Jump, Charge - 5.5 Mortals, 40 chainswords, 8 fists.
Truth be told, I would have preferred to use my big Deathwing Squad against his Hellblaster brick, but they were screened out. The Assault Intercessors had mobility and weight of attacks. The MW potential was concerning but my Terminators at least had some protection against that. Given the mission (Relic) and that I had relatively low unit count I didn't want the big unit of Jump Intercessors being able to dominate the one (and then two) objective in play.
I wouldn't consider either of my test games "tourney prep", although we were using the Leviathan mission pack. I don't think I would take a Land Raider Crusader in a tourney! My aim in the two games was to see some of the new units, Detachment rules and Stratagems/Enhancements in action.
The Vowed Target is situational, and your opponent can often try to work around it. Still, it can be more impactful mid and late game when tough units are fighting for the middle objectives. I just wouldn't plan my list and plan around everyone Deathwing Infantry having +1 to Wound all the time.
I think if one is running Deathwing Knights with Maces or Inner Circle Companions then Gladius should be the go-to. You need Honour the Chapter to get around that crippling AP-1, not to mention the +1 to wound.
And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.
Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.
ZergSmasher wrote: And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.
Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.
I think that Sternguard only have Devastating Wounds on their ranged weapons, and the Inner Circle stratagem that allows Wound re-rolls is only in the Fight Phase. But you are right, we need to somehow find little tricks to make the DA detachments relevant. Now, if all this just means that we run DA units in Gladius the sun will still come up in the morning. Some of our stuff really sings in Gladius.
A lot of folks were excited about Deathwing characters giving their attached unit the Deathwing keyword, like Azrael with Hellblasters, to benefit from the Vowed Objective bit. I thought that was cool as well, but who is going to put a tough taret on an objective with that unit in range? That interaction, though, does allow Hellblasters with Azrael to use Unmatched Fortitude to have "baby Transhuman." I have found that the worst threat to Hellblasters are weapons with high rate of fire, Strength 5 to 8 and Damage 2 or 3 (like Exocrines, Tau plasma and those Knight cannons). Being able to pop that Stratagem could save a few models, which could give another turn of quality shooting for the unit. Azrael and a Lieutenant in an Inner Circle can achieve most of the goodness of the Gladius Fire Discipline piece with a bit more durability.
Some edge cases we have are things like Bladeguard with the "Bladeguard Captain" attached (the Captain with the Relic Shield that can be attached to Bladeguard). He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective). Its a reach, but its something...Terminator Assalt Squad with Thunderhammers? Could really put the hurt on something that relies on Invul saves with that Inner Circle Martial Mastery stratagem. So that is something.
We do need to wait for points before making any pronouncements on unit power/viability.
ZergSmasher wrote: And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.
Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.
I think that Sternguard only have Devastating Wounds on their ranged weapons, and the Inner Circle stratagem that allows Wound re-rolls is only in the Fight Phase. But you are right, we need to somehow find little tricks to make the DA detachments relevant. Now, if all this just means that we run DA units in Gladius the sun will still come up in the morning. Some of our stuff really sings in Gladius.
A lot of folks were excited about Deathwing characters giving their attached unit the Deathwing keyword, like Azrael with Hellblasters, to benefit from the Vowed Objective bit. I thought that was cool as well, but who is going to put a tough taret on an objective with that unit in range? That interaction, though, does allow Hellblasters with Azrael to use Unmatched Fortitude to have "baby Transhuman." I have found that the worst threat to Hellblasters are weapons with high rate of fire, Strength 5 to 8 and Damage 2 or 3 (like Exocrines, Tau plasma and those Knight cannons). Being able to pop that Stratagem could save a few models, which could give another turn of quality shooting for the unit. Azrael and a Lieutenant in an Inner Circle can achieve most of the goodness of the Gladius Fire Discipline piece with a bit more durability.
Some edge cases we have are things like Bladeguard with the "Bladeguard Captain" attached (the Captain with the Relic Shield that can be attached to Bladeguard). He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective). Its a reach, but its something...Terminator Assalt Squad with Thunderhammers? Could really put the hurt on something that relies on Invul saves with that Inner Circle Martial Mastery stratagem. So that is something.
We do need to wait for points before making any pronouncements on unit power/viability.
Vowed gives a bonus to wound, not rerolls just to clarify - I think you were mixing Martial Mastery and Vowed Objective and probably missed part of that in an edit but for those reading - you'd get the reroll to hit from OOM, and a bonus to wound from Vowed Objective.
Next a question: Why do people keep saying we need the points? They're in the book? Sure I absolutely expect a FAQ/Errata and potential points update to drop the same day the book officially releases, but we've got a ballpark to play in.
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ZergSmasher wrote: And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.
Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.
My DA will probably live in Gladius because my DA is RW+DW with no- or next-to-no- Greenwing, and they didn't make a 1+2 Det. Gladius works for everything because its the generic X Det with the least ammount of X+Y or X+Y+Z qualifiers i.e. Adeptus Astartes instead of Adeptus Astartes Deathwing Terminators. So in Gladius the strats can hit the bikes and the Terminators.
Edit to Add: That's just one example of the current problem with Theme Dets in current SM lineups - they don't have the depth to do the theme Dets. Especially in the HQ area.
Was that post aimed at me? The quotes can get out of control. Vowed Objective will certainly allow Hellblasters with a Deathwing Character attached to have the +1 to Wound on the Vowed Objective. Martial Mastery is indeed only for the Fight Phase.
The Deathwing Knights points in the book are so high I think we really need to see the MFM. Inner Circle Companions at 105 points will not see the tabletop in this MFM economy.
Was that post aimed at me? The quotes can get out of control. Vowed Objective will certainly allow Hellblasters with a Deathwing Character attached to have the +1 to Wound on the Vowed Objective. Martial Mastery is indeed only for the Fight Phase.
The Deathwing Knights points in the book are so high I think we really need to see the MFM. Inner Circle Companions at 105 points will not see the tabletop in this MFM economy.
It was this part:
He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective).
I'm assuming edit/Freudian Slip type of thing -
I think Inner Circle Companions will get limited play, but they'll still see the tabletop here and there. Azrael and/or a Power Armor Libby can both join them and fit together well by giving them the 4++ ICC don't have but BGV do. That said, they're a touch more expensive than BGV so yeah a price drop equal to them seems in order- but the difference isn't so large as to put them on the dust shelf when you can avoid doubling up on the 4++ to get (X=Something Else and the 4++). They're basically the same unit coming from opposite directions. BGV start with 4++ and need a character to give them -1 to get hit (or whatever) ICC start with the -1 to get hit, but need a character to give them the 4++. ICC get both of their abilities while BGV have to choose one - but starting with the 4++ makes them more versatile than needing to get the 4++ secondarily. They're mostly a wash.
Martial Mastery grants Wound rerolls of 1 for Deathwing Infantry units in the Fight phase. It grants full Wound rerolls if the unit is in range of the Vowed Objective.
It’s a good Strat since wound rerolls are so few and far between. So a Finest Hour Captain attached to Bladeguard could fish for 6s with that Strat.
I fear that Inner Circle Companions will need to be cheap to be other than a flavour choice in a list. Otherwise just take Bladeguard.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Martial Mastery grants Wound rerolls of 1 for Deathwing Infantry units in the Fight phase. It grants full Wound rerolls if the unit is in range of the Vowed Objective.
It’s a good Strat since wound rerolls are so few and far between. So a Finest Hour Captain attached to Bladeguard could fish for 6s with that Strat.
I fear that Inner Circle Companions will need to be cheap to be other than a flavour choice in a list. Otherwise just take Bladeguard.
Azrael with Bladeguard wastes the 4++.
Azrael with ICC gets you 4++, -1 to get hit, +1 to hit vs Characters, SH1 (so go Strike instead of Sweep), and the ability to add an Apothecary instead of a Lieutenant.
You can do similar with a Libby (but can't add a second leader)
I do similar but less with Tiggy and BGV in my UM.
Its also something of a wash with the Azrael + Hellblaster bomb. 20 wounds vs 18, 20 ranged vs 6 pistol and 24 close combat attacks. 20ish point difference.
I find that the big Hellblaster Squad can take on most targets and has a great threat range. The ICC have to rely on the Fight phase.
The big problem for me looking at ICC is their AP -1. They will struggle against many opponents. They have one more Strength than BGV, but those Bladeguard are still at Str 5 so its not like they can't wound infantry. AP-2 is just so much better. With Gladius you can get extra AP, but so could the Bladeguard to really take down armoured foes. For 15 points less at the book value.
The ICC will shine, though, into hordes with Sustained Hits 2, Str 6 and AP-1. I think, though, that 105 or 210 points is a little steep to have a chaff-clearing unit.
Yeah, the AP-1 is what kills the companions competitively unless they are stupid cheap. If they are the same exact cost as Bladeguard they might be worth a look in the Gladius, and they are an interesting alternative to the Company Heroes (which Azrael and Lazarus can no longer join, single tear). Personally I don't think I'd run Azrael with them; I want him with Hellblasters as I think they can affect the game more being a ranged unit. The Libby is a good idea for the 4++ though, or maybe even Ezekiel for the extra attacks.
Speaking of Azrael and Hellblasters, that combo is one that I would call evergreen (and not just because of the color of their armor ). Seriously, put that unit in just about any Marine detachment and it'll do well, even the bad ones, as it really doesn't need a huge amount of stratagem support. In detachments like the Ironstorm, the only drawback of AzzyBlasters (I shall call that unit that from now on) is the opportunity cost of not taking a more "thematic" choice that does have stratagem support (like vehicles in the Ironstorm).
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I find that the big Hellblaster Squad can take on most targets and has a great threat range. The ICC have to rely on the Fight phase.
The big problem for me looking at ICC is their AP -1. They will struggle against many opponents. They have one more Strength than BGV, but those Bladeguard are still at Str 5 so its not like they can't wound infantry. AP-2 is just so much better. With Gladius you can get extra AP, but so could the Bladeguard to really take down armoured foes. For 15 points less at the book value.
The ICC will shine, though, into hordes with Sustained Hits 2, Str 6 and AP-1. I think, though, that 105 or 210 points is a little steep to have a chaff-clearing unit.
Hailstrikes are cheap, and fit well with Dark Angels. I'd still be in Gladius because the DA Dets don't merge Deathwing and Ravenwing well - but I can easily see Azrael + ICC, some RW bikes and speeders, maybe some Terminators. I think most people stick with the Hellblaster bomb, but I also think a few people switch it up. And I think they get a price drop to give-or-take-5 from BGV.
Basically it's an Ironstorm build with the only DA-specific things being Azrael and a Darkshroud. This is a build that will still work even with the changes in the codex; this list would only have to change what Azrael runs with as he won't be able to go with Company Heroes anymore. I kind of like the idea of a Stormraven as a tactical nuke for something you really want dead.
Rogzor87 wrote: Anyone know how to get the App to show the new 10th DA Supplement with the code or do I need to wait till "x" date for it to work?
I put in the code and it went through but its not updating in the app.
I read we need to wait until the DA codex wide release, then our codes will work.
However, mine would not accept the code when I first tried to upload it when it was first released.
My code didn't work when Deathwing Assault delivered, but it did work after the codex itself went on Pre-order. With that said the app doesn't recognize it,
I went back and input the code again. It accepted it and I received an email confirmation of the new upload.
However, it will not update on the app at this time.
Kinda wish GW was a bit more open about this. I never saw anything from GW about delayed app updates if a codex arrived before wide release via a boxset such as DW.
Any advice/suggestion on how to load up DW termies?
I have 20 Terminators, 2 plasma cannons, 3 cyclone missle launchers and 4 assault cannons. All still NoS(10 from the DW assault box, 5 from Terminator box, 5 from Leviathan box). I'll probably mix in 1-2 chainfist per unit.
I built the ones I got in the Deathwing Assault box with plasma only because I've got some of the old ones with CMLs. Personally I think the CMLs are probably the way to go as far as a good TAC option. And my plan is to run Chainfists at 2 per 5 dudes.
ZergSmasher wrote: I built the ones I got in the Deathwing Assault box with plasma only because I've got some of the old ones with CMLs. Personally I think the CMLs are probably the way to go as far as a good TAC option. And my plan is to run Chainfists at 2 per 5 dudes.
That's what I did, and I assume what most will do. 5 Guys, toss the Sergeant, split the other two. I made sure the Cyclone and AC guys both got the Chainfist, and 2x1 regular guys got the Power Fist so the Heavy Weapon guy I'm going to pull "last" has the Chainfist so I don't have to pick between the Cyclone or the Chain Fist with a Landraider bearing down on me but yeah.
Most of them stayed the same as the current MFM, meaning Lion in his nerfed state is completely unusable competitively and Deathwing Knights are iffy, although perhaps okay. Inner Circle Companions were one of the big question marks, and they are 35ppm so probably not a great choice considering Bladeguard are only 30ppm and have AP-2 on their weapons. The other big question was the Ravenwing Command Squad since it's been completely reworked, and it's 130 for the three models, which might be okay for what they do? On the enhancement side, the exciting one for the Inner Circle detachment is Deathwing Assault, and that one is 30 points. Yowch. Most of the others are fine, costwise.
Overall I think DA are going to be okay, even if we are mostly running the Codex: SM detachments. Based on today's Goonhammer article, it looks like one of our better builds is Ironstorm with Azrael, a Darkshroud, 3 Redemptors, and 1-2 Stormravens, plus smaller pieces to taste. I'm still brainstorming ideas for good ways for DA to make use of all the detachments, including the vanilla ones and our own.
Deathwing Knights should still be playable at these points. Inner Circle Companions are indeed not priced to move in an ecosystem with Bladeguard being cheaper.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Deathwing Knights should still be playable at these points. Inner Circle Companions are indeed not priced to move in an ecosystem with Bladeguard being cheaper.
So not a disaster. But not salvation either.
I still disagree - I still think One unit of ICC can do something Bladeguard can't by hopping in with Azrael (potentially and an Apothecary). Apothecary can't join BGV, but they can join ICC - and 4++, Resurrectable is pretty rare. Toss in the -1 to hit synergy with Azrael's 4++. I think when you get past that first unit of ICC, you run into problems. After that your best choice is a regular libby (which then precludes secondary leaders) and meh. At that point you're better off getting BGV with a something. The Deathwing Knights are also definitely playable, but they can't do it alone. Its possible to make an all Ravenwing/biker army - they're OC2 +1 to 3, have a 5++, Anti-Almost-Everything on the charge, oodles of Plasma, etc. But the Deathwing Knights still make a slightly better anvil for the Ravenguard to hammer against - though its even less than already mentioned because the Ravenwing can also have a ressurecting medic.
But still, the lack of change is not especially inspiring.
Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.
ZergSmasher wrote: Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.
That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.
Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.
My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?
ZergSmasher wrote: Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.
That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.
Its not bad, though its still at times less than the "Gold Standard" Depending on what you're shooting at. 6 Aggressors, plus Bioliogis, plus some sort of Captain/Chapter Master is more than 40 shots, Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 on 5+'s. This squad gets you 9 models - 2 shots, 3 with Rapid Fire, and the qualtiy of the shots go way up, you still have Sustained Hits, but lose Lethal Hits. Additionally you're using up 2CP per turn instead of 1 (1CP for both units gets you into Dev Doctrine, the Captain-whatever in the Aggressors can potentially freebie the Storm of Fire) but you can't freebie strats onto bikes.
Assume 42 shots for the Aggressors unit (which is low but also easy math) 7 of each D6 results means 14 crits, 14 wounds, 14 exploding hits (5's and 6's)- and another 14 hits (3's and 4's also fudged for 2+ to Hit Captains and easy math) means 28 To Wounds, and 14 Wounds. Call if 50/50 S4 vs T4: 28 wounds to save, call it a 50/50 to save (3+ Save -1 from the strat) 14 damage = 7ish dead MEQ, 2+ish dead Terminators
27 shots (2+ the easily reached Rapid Fire Range) 1/3 miss. 1/3 hit, 1/3 crit hit so 9 miss, 9 hit, 9 crit = 18 hits no auto wounds - 27 hits S8 HAZARDOUS vs T4 5/6 wound - 22.5 woundings, 45 damage. 22.5 dead marines very overkill, vs T5 Terminators. 15 woundings vs Terminators and/or Gravis - 7.5 - 15 damage vs Terminators 7.5ish dead Terminators. + more if Gravis.
jonolikespie wrote: Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.
My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?
The Deathwing Assault box gives you a decent start for a Dark Angels army. You could use everything in the box as the core. Go for Cyclone Missile Launchers. Belial can be him or cosplay as a Captain in Terminator Armour. After that, I would add some cheap utility units like Scouts. Two squads (or three) allow you to control (to some extent) no-man's land during deployment and can do all sorts of things during the game. I might add a Gladiator Lancer or two as anti-tank units, although Redemptor Dreadnoughts are also good. Land Raiders are actually OK in 10th Ed. If you already have one or two then go ahead and roll them out of the hangar and onto the field. The flight stands will make you rage, but an Inceptor Squad will do wonders in-game.
Pitfalls? I think that all-Terminator could be a pitfall. You need some utility troops in 10th Ed to score points.
ZergSmasher wrote: Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.
That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.
Its not bad, though its still at times less than the "Gold Standard" Depending on what you're shooting at. 6 Aggressors, plus Bioliogis, plus some sort of Captain/Chapter Master is more than 40 shots, Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 on 5+'s. This squad gets you 9 models - 2 shots, 3 with Rapid Fire, and the qualtiy of the shots go way up, you still have Sustained Hits, but lose Lethal Hits. Additionally you're using up 2CP per turn instead of 1 (1CP for both units gets you into Dev Doctrine, the Captain-whatever in the Aggressors can potentially freebie the Storm of Fire) but you can't freebie strats onto bikes.
Assume 42 shots for the Aggressors unit (which is low but also easy math) 7 of each D6 results means 14 crits, 14 wounds, 14 exploding hits (5's and 6's)- and another 14 hits (3's and 4's also fudged for 2+ to Hit Captains and easy math) means 28 To Wounds, and 14 Wounds. Call if 50/50 S4 vs T4: 28 wounds to save, call it a 50/50 to save (3+ Save -1 from the strat) 14 damage = 7ish dead MEQ, 2+ish dead Terminators
27 shots (2+ the easily reached Rapid Fire Range) 1/3 miss. 1/3 hit, 1/3 crit hit so 9 miss, 9 hit, 9 crit = 18 hits no auto wounds - 27 hits S8 HAZARDOUS vs T4 5/6 wound - 22.5 woundings, 45 damage. 22.5 dead marines very overkill, vs T5 Terminators. 15 woundings vs Terminators and/or Gravis - 7.5 - 15 damage vs Terminators 7.5ish dead Terminators. + more if Gravis.
jonolikespie wrote: Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.
My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?
The Deathwing box gets you a decent start:
5 Deathwing Knights
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (With Cyclone to start)
5 (Core Space Marines Book) Terminator Squad with Cyclone, and a power fist on the Sergeant
is what I did. At that point that second set of 5 Terminators can be their own squad, or the second 5 Deathwing Terminators for 10 total - with the only "bits" difference being Sgt Crux'es on the leader of the second five (Previously called the Veteran) I picked up two so I could do it twice, and the second time I did Assault Canons. I also mixed and matched Chain Fists. The Heavy Weapon Guys all got Chain Fists as the "generally last to be picked up" along with the Sergeant who had a power sword or power fist. then the other 6 guys out of the 10 had split Power/Chain Fists. So each 10 had Sgt with sword, Heavy Guy with Chain Fist, (Second Sgt with Fist), Heavy Guy with Chain Fist, then 3 Chain Fists and 3 Power Fists out of the 10. The Deathwing Terminator Squad lost its mixed weapons AND didn't get the Power Fist on Sergeant the basic Terminator Squad did, but that's not horrible to OK.
The most obvious/easiest thing to do for most people appears to be mixing and matching Deathwing, Ravenwing, and just a smattering of Greenwing (basically Azrael and his magic Squad of Hellblasters or Inner Circle Champions depending on your particular preference) in a Gladius Detachment.
At this point I'm going to take a second to catch you up so we're on the same page:
First: Dark Angels are now basically a supplement army that uses the core Space Marine Codex as its base, then adds a few units and characters from an additional Supplement (Codex: Dark Angels). So at this point you can take anything in the main book, and add anything from the Codex Supplement - which includes your named characters now called Epic Heroes, and what people call bespoke units i.e. Ravenwing Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Dark Talons, and so on.
Next: Armies are made by picking one Detachment (And Dark Angels can take any Detachment from their own book, or the core book) and then fielding an army looking at the bonuses (The Det has a base bonus that applies to everything or almost everything as well as 4 Enhancements you can give up to three of to non-Epic-Hero characters like Captain Generic Of The Fifth Company) So for example the DA book as a Green/All Wing Det called Grim Resolve, a "first company" Det called Inner Circle something or other, and a Ravenwing Det called The Hunt something or other. All of them are generally bad. Most DA players are probably looking towards the Core Rulebook and the Gladius Detachment. Its got some of the better bonuses while also being one of the least restrictive. While DA have a Terminator Detachment, and a Biker detachment, you can only pick/use one at a time, so if you mix Terminators and Bikes, half your army can't use the bells and whistles, while if you use the Gladius Det which is far less restrictive you can use all the bells and whistles. Ergo most people use Gladius. A few will make theme armies with one of the DA or other Core Detachments. But that's pretty rare.
Next: your "Character" models are now usually attached to a squad at the beginning of the game and locked into them until the end of the game. Very few characters can just run around by themselves without getting shot to death one turn 1 for two reasons: Everything can shoot anything else it can see, and characters no longer have the "Look Out Sir" rules. Very rarely a character will have something called Lone Operative which is similar to LOOKOUT SIR!, except for how rarely it applies. Basically most characters now are Super Sergeants like Wolf Guards used to be.
So lets say you're caught up and on the same page with me here. A typical DA army might (I say might, because its still early and the "meta" hasn't settled in yet - the book is still a few days to a week and a few days from being live in the GW army builder app but it might) look like Azrael, 6 Inner Circle Companions, and an Apothecary in one unit, a couple units of Deathwing Knights to play Anvil to a couple units of Ravenwing Command Squads attached to Ravenwing Black Knights (Probably one of the Black Knight Command Squads has the Fire Discipline enhancement which is really really nasty when you can churn out 30ish shots under it's effect. Optionally it could be Azrael, 10 Hellblasters and a Lieutenant-or-Apothecary with the Fire Discipline enhancement. But again its pretty much a wash. 10 x2 attacks, 9x2 sometimes 9x3 attacks. 10 shooters, vs 6 hard to hit swordsmen, 50/50 on what you pair with Azrael, and where you put Fire Discipline.
You could do two DW Knights units, 10 Terminators (as either Deathwing or normal) Terminators in one squad or two, two sets of 6 Black Knights each led by a Command Squad (they're the hammers to the DWK Anvils) and the Fire Discipline Enhancement for about 1860-70 points leaving room for potentially a couple LEADERs attached to the assorted various Deathwing/Terminator units. Knights will like any of the three leaders - reroll charges, or +1 to wound with their maces/swords, or Sustained Hits will all help them about the same. The Shootinators (i.e. the ones with Stormbolters, and heavy guns) are more likely to appreciate the Chaplain or the Librarian. +1 to wound on Storm Bolters with 4 shots is probably the best, but the Libby giving you extra hits on 6's is also going to be happy. The Captain letting you reroll charges (and pop a freebie strat) is also good, but more niche. The Black Knights are "led" by the Command Squad because 6 Black Knights with a 3+/5++ (3+ Armor save and 5+ invuln) are generally better than 6 guys with a 3+ and no invuln plus an ATV that can't be resurrected with more wounds that won't matter much.
That's your Deathwing box, a couple Terminator HQs you can probably pick up on Ebay cheaply from the Leviathan/Starter Set Box (Though I'd advice getting the Starter Set box too for the characters, more terminators, and the rule book.) and 6 boxes of Ravenwing Bikes/Black Knights which is likely to sting in the wallet area. Even 3 boxes for one full unit is painful, especially compared to the value added boxes like Leviathan/Starter Sets and Deathwing Assault.
Other Ways to Go:
The Lion is back. A lot of people are down on him, but I don't think he's that bad. One of the things I like to do with either/both of the loyalist Primarchs is surround them with Infiltrators led by a Phobos Librarian which works like this: While a Phobos Librarian is leading a Phobos armored unit, the unit can't be shot at from outside 12, and even from within 12" they're -1 to hit. This includes the Librarian leading them. Because the Primarch is next to his own guys, he gets that LONE OPERATIVE ability from above. He can't be shot from outside 12. So you have this big bubble that can't be shot from outside 12" (and if you picked Infiltrators nothing can deep strike within 12" so no Deep Strike and shoot). The Lion himself can deepstrike though, so there's some potential for Reivers - which aren't good enough to be good, or bad enough to be bad - but they can deep strike with the Lion. Not that Deep Striking a melee unit is especially great. Best Likely case you Deep Strike to a corner and charge the turn after, if you can. Technically you can charge same turn, but the odds are pretty low. I'd stick with Infiltrators, but it's there. The more obvious pairing is the Lion with Deepstriking Terminators - which isn't bad and probably 50/50 with the no-shoot-bubble. 10 Terminators will make a helluva bodyguard even if they can be shot at. 10 Deathwing Knights (two units because they now cap at 5) that take 1 damage off anthing that shoots them makes a pretty good bodyguard that will rarely care if they can be shot at.
The Ravenwing Darkshroud gives Stealth (-1 to GET hit) in a 6" Aura. Deathwing Knights with -1 to hit get even more persnickety. Inner Circle Champions have a built in -1 to GET hit that will (Sort of) stack with Stealth for -2 to GET hit. You cap at +/- 1 to Hit modifier, but +1 to hit is somewhat common. -1 to hit is much less so so stacking -2 to get hit has some appeal. Not enough to be a primary Wombo Combo, but giving -2 to the Inner Circle Champions led by Azrael for the 4++, and some Deathwing Knights who already had a 4++ standing next to The Lion who can't even be shot at while he's standing next to Space Marine Infantry....
We've got a short window here were Aircraft that were even more limited than the Rule of 3 no longer have that extra limit can be fielded, and the Dark Angels have access to something like 5 different aircraft datasheets Now I'm not saying field 15 aircraft, but 2 flying Avenger Mega Bolters (DA Warthogs), 2 flying Rift Canons (The DA version of the AC-130), and a pair of Flying Land Raiders will run you about 1200 points leaving 800 to win the game after you get in your airstrikes. In theory. This may make you somewhat unpopular if GW hasn't fixed all the 9th Ed problems with Aircraft that made them limit all armies to two total aircraft no matter how many datasheets. But the combined codex thing does make it so DA are one of the few armies that can run an almost all aircraft army without resorting to Forgeworld.
I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.
The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.
There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).
Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force
CHARACTERS
Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets
Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane
Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault
I would try to get some Bladeguard in there if you really want to make good use of Ezekiel, plus they are Deathwing and benefit from the Vow thing. The Terminator Librarian with Deathwing Assault leading some Terminators is a good choice, as the turn they drop they can use the Relic Teleportarium strat to get real close (although they can't charge afterwards) and benefit well from the libby's Sustained Hits 1. I would definitely get some more Deathwing in there (probably dropping some of the Inceptors to find the points), as they synergize better with the detachment rule.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would try to get some Bladeguard in there if you really want to make good use of Ezekiel, plus they are Deathwing and benefit from the Vow thing. The Terminator Librarian with Deathwing Assault leading some Terminators is a good choice, as the turn they drop they can use the Relic Teleportarium strat to get real close (although they can't charge afterwards) and benefit well from the libby's Sustained Hits 1. I would definitely get some more Deathwing in there (probably dropping some of the Inceptors to find the points), as they synergize better with the detachment rule.
Realizing the List Poster mentioned this is what they have ready or almost ready:
I'd guess Ezekiel joining the Infernus Squad was what gave them Deathwing (And thus Vow Eligible) - And it's a neat little trick: ~35 S5 0 D1 shots with +1 to wound.
Going forward, my kneejerk suggestion for replacing some/most of the Inceptors with Dreads, but I realized it needs to be INFANTRY to get the Vow bonus. This might be a good niche for Sternguard with an attached Libby for the 4++ bubble - the plus 1 won't get you into Devastating Wounds, but it will let you often wound on 3's. Bladeguard and more Terminators are both decent choices.
And for a Sleeper option - Vanguard Vets. ~40 S5 -1 D1 attacks with Lethal Hits on the Charge, More if you add a captain. 10 Vanguard Vets will land you in the 6 Bladeguard to 6 ICC ballpark points wise. And they've got the movement to get to more than one or two objectives during the game.
Cents would be funny, but there's absolutely no way to make them Deathwing.
Outriders are MOUNTED not INFANTRY, and the Chaplain on Bike wouldn't give them Deathwing either.
But if you want to play up The Vowed Objective Vanguard Vets would be a sneaky good choice for a stalking horse partnered with Deep Striking Shootinators. Deep Strike within 12 for 54 Bolter Quality shots (40 Storm Bolter, ~14 Cyclone Frag Missiles)
The downside to playing up The Vowed Objective looks to be how limited you are on Multi-wound attacks. 2 Cyclone Kraks. Overcharged Plasma. Thunderhammers and X-Fists, and you'll likely need that +1 to wound vs anything T9 or better like vehicles and large monsters.
I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.
The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.
There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).
Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force
CHARACTERS
Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets
Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane
Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault
Exported with App Version: v1.11.0 (39), Data Version: v352
What is going in the Drop Pod? The Hellblasters and Infernus dudes would, presumably, have Azrael and Ezekiel attached respectively. The Drop Pod only has a capacity of 10 models, though, so with an attached character neither squad would fit.
The Terminator Librarian's Sustained Hits is good, but I lost a Deathwing Command Squad to an opponent who had Anti-Psyker and Devastating Wounds because I had the Librarian in Terminator Armour attached. Won't come up all the time, but something to be wary for.
I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.
The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.
There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).
Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force
CHARACTERS
Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets
Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane
Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault
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What is going in the Drop Pod? The Hellblasters and Infernus dudes would, presumably, have Azrael and Ezekiel attached respectively. The Drop Pod only has a capacity of 10 models, though, so with an attached character neither squad would fit.
The Terminator Librarian's Sustained Hits is good, but I lost a Deathwing Command Squad to an opponent who had Anti-Psyker and Devastating Wounds because I had the Librarian in Terminator Armour attached. Won't come up all the time, but something to be wary for.
Should state 9 total Infernus Marines, not 10. They are in the Drop Pod.
The list is for casual play and not something I'll take to any tournaments.
I hope someone discoverers some real utility in the DA supplement. I have not found anything that would deter me from using Space Marine detachments to take to a tournament.
Sarigar wrote: GW really needs to drop the term 'Infantry'for the Inner Circle detachment rule. Vehicles get the Deathwing keyword yet it does nothing.
Come on GW.....give us an update. Otherwise, Gladius and Vanguard Spearhead detachments are my go to.
I'm even willing to play ICC in a Gladius Detachment.
Pretty sure they did that one on purpose. Not that it makes sense, because in theory 200 points of Terminators should have similar output to 200 points of Redemptor.
But yeah, most of the Dets need some work. They're a good first step, but they're only the first step to good. Gladius is generally the Go To because it doesn't have the keyword limitations.
Tried out another Inner Circle list with the thought of pick Fixed Secondaries baked into the design (Behind Enemy Lines and Deploy Teleport Homers). I also put in some Inner Circle Companions with a Librarian. I ended up against Thousand Sons, and with their fairly low density board presence I went with the Fixed Secondaries.
The Vowed Target rules never really came into play, but perhaps it did make him play his Daemon Prince and Hellbrutes a little more cagey than normal. This actually cost him some VP once, so there is that. I wouldn't count on the +1 to wound for things like Hellblasters led by Azrael etc.
The Fixed Secondaries were a double-edged sword. I did score well, but my battle plan was completely telegraphed by my choice and it also made me use some really good units in sub-optimal ways. This did draw his main effort back into his deployment zone, which let get a big lead on Primaries as well. So its something to have as an option but it won't be the path to victory in each game.
The Deathwing Knights with swords ended up against Hellbrutes and the Daemon Prince - being Damage 1 was a big drawback.
The Inner Circle Companions did kill a Sorcerer over two rounds, secured an objective and then died to a flurry of combi-bolter. AP -1 was not a huge factor in this match up since everything seemed to have a 4++. Still not convinced about them as a viable unit, but I will keep messing around with them. Gladius, as usual, might be the best option if I really want to run them (they are great looking models).
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Tried out another Inner Circle list with the thought of pick Fixed Secondaries baked into the design (Behind Enemy Lines and Deploy Teleport Homers). I also put in some Inner Circle Companions with a Librarian. I ended up against Thousand Sons, and with their fairly low density board presence I went with the Fixed Secondaries.
The Vowed Target rules never really came into play, but perhaps it did make him play his Daemon Prince and Hellbrutes a little more cagey than normal. This actually cost him some VP once, so there is that. I wouldn't count on the +1 to wound for things like Hellblasters led by Azrael etc.
The Fixed Secondaries were a double-edged sword. I did score well, but my battle plan was completely telegraphed by my choice and it also made me use some really good units in sub-optimal ways. This did draw his main effort back into his deployment zone, which let get a big lead on Primaries as well. So its something to have as an option but it won't be the path to victory in each game.
The Deathwing Knights with swords ended up against Hellbrutes and the Daemon Prince - being Damage 1 was a big drawback.
The Inner Circle Companions did kill a Sorcerer over two rounds, secured an objective and then died to a flurry of combi-bolter. AP -1 was not a huge factor in this match up since everything seemed to have a 4++. Still not convinced about them as a viable unit, but I will keep messing around with them. Gladius, as usual, might be the best option if I really want to run them (they are great looking models).
I haven't done the building and painting yet, but I think Vowed Target keeps coming back to Vanguard Vets and Assault (especially Lightning Claw) Terminators. Give the Terminators Consolidate 6" but really the Vanguard Vets have the movement to jump from Vowed Objective to Vowed Objective, and benefit from the +1 to Wound on their melta pistols and Heirloom Weapoins.
I'm currently building/painting my ICC. I'm a big fan of Contrast to "battle ready", then layer up over that. I'm really digging the Sigvald Burgundy for their robes (and the robes of the Watchers). Its more vibrant than the purple GW got so far, but I kind of like it better - it doesn't look as washed/frosted/subdued. The 3D Lion Head pauldrons for the "unit" pauldron is also I think a win. I'll probably do another unit with the 3D Printed Angel Shield I found glued to the back to convert into some DA specific Bladeugard Vets (still painted in black armor like the ICC, and learn from making this unit.
I posted a list in the 40k Army List for DA around a week or so ago. If anyone would be able to help me with it?
I had a friend suggest a Chaplain over the Captain but unsure on that. On top of having 20(15) points unused if I do that. In addition, to split my scout squad into 2 5-mans. Which i can do but I only have the 1 sniper/missile launcher. So only 1 squad would get those.
I haven't played in 12years. So still trying to tweak the list and figure things out. I also have to learn the game. But I own all these models. Just have to assemble/paint them.
You'd be better off finding some discord or youtube commments section to leave that. Forums are mostly ossified as you can tell, there's basically no activity anymore. Sorry, I cant help you either as I got rid of my army for 10th.
ZergSmasher wrote: I gave my two cents; I think the list is workable if not super competitive.
Ty. I'll try to figure out a landraider from your advice. However, the Hellblasters are a 9man unit specifically so Azreal can fit in a drop pod with them.
Just played a game earlier this evening (or rather, yesterday as it's early morning now) trying out the Company of Hunters detachment vs. my opponent's Space Marines Vanguard Hunters detachment.
My list:
In my list, I put Sammael and the Chaplain each with one of the Black Knight units, and put the Command Squad with the big Outrider squad. I put the Stormraven in hover mode, which is how I'll probably play it in most games.
My opponent's list, from memory:
My opponent attached a Phobos Lieutenant to each Incursor unit, which worked pretty well for him, and he put the Bladeguard in the Impulsor. Inceptors went in Deep Strike of course. Both of us took Tactical objectives.
Our mission was Priority Targets, our special rule was the sticky objectives one (rendering my opponent's Intercessors and both of our sticky strats redundant), and deployment was Dawn of War. My opponent won the roll-off to go first and moved a bunch of his stuff up but not super aggressively. Our terrain might have been a bit too sparse but I could not hide the Stormraven completely and it caught a lot of fire but survived with 4 wounds remaining. On my turn, I very aggressively moved most of my army up and thanks to some advance + charge shenanigans and Oath of Moment-buffed shooting managed to put down both Redemptors and the Impulsor, but very little else. My Darkshroud was a hero, protecting my vehicles and units throughout the game. Without it, my Stormraven would have died turn 1. It ended up becoming a victim of an Incursor's Haywire Mine (an ability I forgot they had) on turn 2. The game was very back and forth but I managed to pull way ahead on secondaries thanks to some good draws, and my opponent sitting on A Tempting Target for too long without scoring it. Once the dust settled I did manage a commanding victory and there were very few models left on the table on either side.
As usual, here are my big takeaways:
-Outriders and Black Knights are nice and fast, but they are fairly squishy for the points. Definitely make use of terrain and the various stratagems (Armor of Contempt, High-Speed Focus) to help keep them alive.
-The Darkshroud was very clutch in my game; providing a big bubble of Stealth and cover is very good for survivability. And any shots that your opponent shoots at the Darkshroud to kill it are not going into your actual dangerous stuff.
-The Stormraven has great firepower, but it is difficult to hide. Obviously if you don't Hover it you can't hide it, but even if you do hover it it's a chonky boi and your opponent can usually find an angle to shoot at it.
-I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think people are sleeping on the Predator Annihilator. It's kind of a poor man's Gladiator Lancer, but for 30 fewer points it still has great firepower.
-The Company of Hunters detachment definitely has some potential. My list is hardly optimized but I think a really good player with a more minmaxed list can probably really make it sing. Being able to advance or fall back and still shoot is great on just about any unit in the game.
Nice write-up Zerg - always good to compare notes from gameplay!
So the Stormraven was just there as a gunboat and fire sponge? Seemed effective!
I'm in a league where the list-lock rules and Codex release dates have made it hard to play current lists. I took a Gladius Hellblaster list with the Lion, since I had had the Lion in the previous round and won. The Lion is quite weak now - losing the wound roll debuff hurts, not to mention the change to Sweep. The Lion didn't achieve much before dying to some Eradicators.
I am likely going to take an Ironstorm list next round. The loss of the Talonmaster makes it weaker, but I will try a Ravenwing Command Squad with the Advance and Shoot enhancement for vehicles.
Its early, but Dark Angels win rates have dropped since the Codex started being played. Most tourneys have a two-week list lock so we are just seeing those games with the new Codex now. The Ironstorm with Azrael, a Dark Shroud, a Stormraven and a Talonmaster with an enhancement was propping up our win rate, so we'll see how the loss of the Talonmaster impacts that.
The latest round of Goonhammer Competitive Innovations articles show yet more success for DA using the Ironstorm detachment. Looks like this is the way forward for us, most likely, just Azrael and a Darkshroud along with whatever vehicles (usually 3 Redemptors and 1-2 Stormravens among other things).
I am running an Ironstorm detachment to close out a league that I am in. A single Stormraven carrying Azrael, 10 x Hellblasters, a Techmarine with the Lethal Hits for Vehicles aura and a Redemptor with a Darkshroud and Thunderstrike riding along. It hits really hard, and with the movement of the Stormraven you can usually hide on a typical table on Turn 1 and still hammer the spot that you want. I suppose I could drop the Hellblasters and add a second Stormraven. That other one is painted wrong, though, so it wouldn't feel right.
Stats are stats, but the Goonhammer stats for the period since the Codex dropped for tourney play are a little sad. It looks like a win rate hovering around 40%. By detachment we see:
- Ironstorm has over 600 games and a 47% win rate.
- Gladius has over 500 games and a win rate of 41%
- People are trying to make the Inner Circle Task Force work with over 700 games played (in tourneys) with a win rate just under 40%.
- Unforgiven Task Force has 262 games played and a win rate of 34%.
- Company of Hunters has a mere 174 games and a 33% win rate.
So Ironstorm is propping up the stats.
I had a moment of excitement when I saw that there was a Dark Angels update yesterday. So Outrider Squad units get Battleline instead of Outrider units. I guess it makes the rules lawyers happy, but a sad panda moment to open the document and see only that language cleanup.
My fear for the coming balance dataslate is that they will react by nerfing Azrael, Stormravens and Darkshrouds and consider it job done.
My hope is that they drop points on all Terminators (and the Inner Circle Companions.) Throw in Devastating Wound protection for the Watchers and Inner Circle Task Force might just creep into the "goldilocks zone." I think that Mounted units need a complete rework as opposed to points, but I hope that I am wrong.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I am running an Ironstorm detachment to close out a league that I am in. A single Stormraven carrying Azrael, 10 x Hellblasters, a Techmarine with the Lethal Hits for Vehicles aura and a Redemptor with a Darkshroud and Thunderstrike riding along. It hits really hard, and with the movement of the Stormraven you can usually hide on a typical table on Turn 1 and still hammer the spot that you want. I suppose I could drop the Hellblasters and add a second Stormraven. That other one is painted wrong, though, so it wouldn't feel right.
Stats are stats, but the Goonhammer stats for the period since the Codex dropped for tourney play are a little sad. It looks like a win rate hovering around 40%. By detachment we see:
- Ironstorm has over 600 games and a 47% win rate.
- Gladius has over 500 games and a win rate of 41%
- People are trying to make the Inner Circle Task Force work with over 700 games played (in tourneys) with a win rate just under 40%.
- Unforgiven Task Force has 262 games played and a win rate of 34%.
- Company of Hunters has a mere 174 games and a 33% win rate.
So Ironstorm is propping up the stats.
I had a moment of excitement when I saw that there was a Dark Angels update yesterday. So Outrider Squad units get Battleline instead of Outrider units. I guess it makes the rules lawyers happy, but a sad panda moment to open the document and see only that language cleanup.
My fear for the coming balance dataslate is that they will react by nerfing Azrael, Stormravens and Darkshrouds and consider it job done.
My hope is that they drop points on all Terminators (and the Inner Circle Companions.) Throw in Devastating Wound protection for the Watchers and Inner Circle Task Force might just creep into the "goldilocks zone." I think that Mounted units need a complete rework as opposed to points, but I hope that I am wrong.
I think they need to up the OC on Terminators either flat 2 like the bikes, or 2 in a First Company/Inner Circle Task Force, but probably flat 2 to go with the bikes.
Well the only way to really make various detachments to work would requier two obligatory things. First for the books to be digital as main source of rules (maybe have one detachment as a "free" option online) and then have each detachment for every army based around the detachment rules, stratagems etc in stuff like units OC, units point costs, units being battle line or being 0-1 or even a 0 option. A venguard detachment should not have a unit of centurions teleport around etc.
This would be the start, the other thing would be the creation of modular characters. Can't have rules without models? okey. The make a box with a space marine biker character which has a head/hand to make a cpt, Lt, librarian, chaplain etc. And do this for all factions. GW can even market up the box price in to the high heavens, they already do it for some armies. But at least people would be able to have fun with their armies and not wait 12 years to play their army and have fun.
Some helpful points cuts - especially the Lion. Inner Circle Companions now cost the same as Bladeguard, so that might help them see the table more. Terminators are cheaper. Stormraven went up, but Hellblasters came down.
So all in all positive for us. Will see how the Deathwing lists look now.
My hot takes from the points changes as it affects Dark Angels:
-Lion got cheaper but he's still not competitive. He's perfectly fine for casual play now, at least, but he's unlikely to be seen in top table lists in tournaments. He just doesn't do enough for his cost.
-Inner Circle Companions are probably worth a look now, but AP-1 feels really bad with all the Armor of Contempt and similar things around. They might show up in Gladius where they can get AP-2 and Lance though.
-Deathwing Knights got a little cheaper and are probably worth consideration now. They are pretty durable compared to other Terminators.
-Regular Deathwing are still more expensive than standard Terminators for no reason. Guess they pay an extra point per model for the privilege of carrying plasma cannons? Not sure what advantage if any these guys have that could actually make them worth more points.
-Azrael managed to dodge the nerf bat yet again. No complaints here, but he's extremely good for his points so I'm kind of surprised he's stayed so cheap.
-One of the strongest Dark Angels builds, which I call and others (I think) call Iron Angels, caught some points hikes. Stormravens went up 20, and two of the enhancements from Ironstorm went up 10 each. My own list that I've been playtesting recently only went up 15 total, but that's because I wasn't using both of the enhancements that got hikes and I have a Brutalis Dread in my list, which went down 15. I'm still going to have to cut a unit of Scouts to fit under 2k now though. Single tear.
-Tactical Squads are now only 140. They are still a meme unit at this point as you still have to take 10 guys and they do basically nothing.
-Jump Assault Intercessors went down to 80 for 5. I was already considering them as a cheaper alternative to Inceptors and now they are even cheaper.
-Hellblasters somehow got a points cut. They were already good before, but now they are amazing. Azrael, a Lieutenant, and a full Hellblaster unit is only 400 points, and they do a ton of damage, especially against the Oath target.
Overall I think Dark Angels are better off. Our best build (and how I hate that it's the best build...) got a possibly well-deserved kick in the nuts, but I think the changes might open up more list building possibilities. Vanguard and Gladius continue to be solid options, and I think there's play in the Firestorm Assault Force and maybe even the Inner Circle Task Force now that Terminators are cheaper.
-Regular Deathwing are still more expensive than standard Terminators for no reason. Guess they pay an extra point per model for the privilege of carrying plasma cannons? Not sure what advantage if any these guys have that could actually make them worth more points.
They still have that "ignore any or all modifiers to BS, WS, and/or Hit roll" over the normal Terminators. Doesn't always come up, but well worth it when it does imo.
Played in a three-round, 1250 point narrative tournament today where we had to have a named character as our warlord. Each table had a custom mission which, while often recongnizable, had enough twists to make for a unique experience. All that to say, hard to draw concrete lessons but some fun moments.
I took the Lion, Azrael, a Librarian, ten Sternguard with the DA upgrades to look like Risen, six Inner Circle Companions, an Intercessor Squad, a Scout Squad and a Landraider.
In game one I went up against Tau with two Riptides, Longstrike, a Hammerhead, a Broadside, Breachers in a Devilfish, a Ghostkeel and some other Tau stuff...I was tabled by Turn 3 but at least Longstrike and one Riptide died. A rough game with the poor Inner Circle Companions gunned down by Riptides after their Landraider was blown apart. The Lion did get into combat with a Riptide but failed to kill it before getting blown apart. 3++ is good, but not that good.
In game two I was against Space Wolves with Ragnar, two wolfy Dreads, Wolfguard Terminators, Inceptors, Blood Claws and a Ballistus. The Inner Circle Companions with Azrael did kill the Inceptors after losing two of their own number to shooting, before getting wiped by Ragnar and the Blood Claws. The Sternguard, though, wiped the Terminators while the Landraider rolled hot and took down all the Dreads. The Lion strolled along.
Game 3 was against Nurgle Daemons with Rotigus, a Great Unclean One, two units of Plaguebearers, three units of Nurglings, two Beasts and six Plaguedrones. This narrative mission made us roll Battleshock each time we didn't move closer to the enemy or shoot. The Inner Circle Companions with Azrael found their grove and took down the Great Unclean One and the Plague Drones before Capturing the Enemy Outpost. 10,000 year of pent-up guilt and two bad game finally let loose. The Lion took down Rotigus while the Sternguard killed Plaguebearers. Huzzah.
I went 2-1 and enjoyed the change of pace with the missions. Inner Circle Companions do have some play, but they still seem match-up dependent. Against things that rely on Invuls they can do good work, but the unit was 285 points with Azrael. I will give them some more reps, but they still don't strike me as a competitive choice. The Sternguard were a fun change from Hellblasters, but again, quite match-up dependent. They make elite Infantry with invuls cry, but really struggle against vehicles/ monsters compared to Hellblasters. The Lion was often a liability due to his base size and being a monster. I can't see him being a competitive choice.
I think Inner Circle Companions either need to be run in a Gladius with Azrael, or not at all. AP-1 makes them very sad against anything with a decent save and/or access to Armor of Contempt or the equivalent.
As a fun exercise I've been trying to write as competitive a list as I can with my personal collection of models, for each detachment (including the bad ones). I haven't done all of them yet, but it's been an interesting thought experiment.
Only a 31 person GT, but a win's a win, right? The list is kind of interesting though, leaning hard on Inceptors even though it's an Ironstorm list. Those are just such an efficient datasheet that it's hard not to lean on them. The usual 3 Redemptors are there too, and the list goes with a RepEx instead of a Stormraven, which might be the better call these days depending on the meta. Also noteworthy in his absence is Azrael. Guess the guy didn't need the extra CP after all. Another list at the same GT did take double Stormravens with Dark Angels and did finish in the top 5 so that build seems to still have play too.
I'm planning to run a single Stormraven Ironstorm build in a GT at the beginning of next month. 3 Redemptors, a Brutalis, a Stormraven, a Storm Speeder Thunderstrike, and a Darkshroud form my vehicle component, and I've got some Scouts and Inceptors backing them up, and Azrael feeding them some extra CP. I'm trying to get a few reps in with it before the tournament so maybe I'll have a shot at doing well. I keep forgetting some of my key strats in the couple of practice games I've had so far, so I really need to just tighten up my game.
I went to a GT last weekend and did rather poorly with my Ironstorm list, going 1-4. I think that has more to do with my skills (or rather complete lack thereof) than the power level of my list, as there were several other variations of Dark Angels Ironstorm at the tournament that finished 4-1, including one that almost won the whole thing. To be fair to myself, two of my losses were extremely close (one was by 2 points, another by a mere 1 point), and the only list that totally crushed mine was an Ork Bully Boyz list that I had no idea whatsoever how to handle. The only game I managed to win was against Grey Knights, and I mostly won that due to the inexperience of my opponent.
In any case, I'll be taking the same list to an RTT on Sunday, although my confidence has been shattered into pieces. Maybe I just need to think of the GT as five practice games for this RTT or something. I dunno. I need to psych myself up somehow. It doesn't help that I hate the fact that Ironstorm is the best way to run Dark Angels right now. That actually chaps my hide real bad. Here's hoping the upcoming dataslate and new missions will shake things up in a good way for us.
ZergSmasher wrote: I went to a GT last weekend and did rather poorly with my Ironstorm list, going 1-4. I think that has more to do with my skills (or rather complete lack thereof) than the power level of my list, as there were several other variations of Dark Angels Ironstorm at the tournament that finished 4-1, including one that almost won the whole thing. To be fair to myself, two of my losses were extremely close (one was by 2 points, another by a mere 1 point), and the only list that totally crushed mine was an Ork Bully Boyz list that I had no idea whatsoever how to handle. The only game I managed to win was against Grey Knights, and I mostly won that due to the inexperience of my opponent.
In any case, I'll be taking the same list to an RTT on Sunday, although my confidence has been shattered into pieces. Maybe I just need to think of the GT as five practice games for this RTT or something. I dunno. I need to psych myself up somehow. It doesn't help that I hate the fact that Ironstorm is the best way to run Dark Angels right now. That actually chaps my hide real bad. Here's hoping the upcoming dataslate and new missions will shake things up in a good way for us.
Going 1-4 at a GT is nothing to be ashamed of. Five rounds is tough, and you came very close in two of them!
I was running Ironstorm for the end of our competitive league. Ironstorm Gladiators are great, and of course Azrael lets you power up the good stratagems while the Darkshroud helps keep the Gladiators or Stormraven/Redemptor a little safer. Doesn't feel very Dark Angels, but there it is...
I've been trying to make the Ravenwing Company of Hunters detachment work...Its a struggle. Even the Ravenwing units perform better with Gladius...Being able to Advance and Shoot has meant more Secondaries, but that is about to go away for the most part.
Turning to the Pariah Nexus Campaign Deck coming out along with the Balance Dataslate and MFM, I am trying to stay optimistic. On the one hand, the underperforming nature of the Dark Angels Detachments and Dark Angels units other than Azrael and the Darkshroud could mean that we get a bit of a rework. Not sure, though, that they have the design bandwidth for that. It is more likely that Azrael and the Darkshroud will receive nerfs while other units get a points-cut that still does make them viable. The detachments need a real redesign. Now, they did well with the Drukhari so there is that.
Back to Pariah Nexus, the changes to scoring and the mission rules will shake some things up. Scouts will be less auto-include. Perhaps Battleline Outriders will come into their era with the new mission rules? Since those buffs vary by Mission Rule, though, it might not be quite enough. At least they (Outriders) have speed so they can perform some of the actions linked to Secondaries that Scouts used to do with their shotguns.
Nah, I think this will be the edition to skip Dark Angels. I really hope they see a massive drop in DA sales (even with nice new kits) that would steer a significant change in rules.
Deathwing Knights went up in points, but their weapons got much better. AP -2 for the Maces and Damage 2 for the Swords. This should really help, and might free them from Gladius.
Inner Circle Companions are now AP -2 with 5 attacks on the sweep. I think they suddenly got viable, and are also freed from Gladius.
Darkshroud went up. Azrael stayed the same, so we dodged a bullet.
Inner Circle Task Force rule is better. Main DA rule is still meh but it did improve slightly.
Inner Circle Task Force with terminators may do well in the new mission pack where you generally have to be on an action for a while turn. Durability will be more important than cheap trade units.
So the Darkshroud actually seems to have stayed the same in points from the last MFM. Ironstorm got hit hard without touching Azrael - good news. Azrael’s CP was always good, but with the Pariah Nexus pack allowing New Orders each turn he is even better (I think).
I do think that Deathwing Knights will now be good outside of Gladius, as will Companions. Inner Circle looks stronger.
Great to see the changes to Dev Wounds - they are Mortal Wounds again that do not spill over, so our Watchers and the Lion can give protection again. Yay!
Yeah Dark Angels made out like bandits despite the fact that the Ironstorm detachment was taken out behind the barn. I kind of want to try 3 Deathwing Knights units now, and I might push my Inner Circle Companions closer to the front of my painting queue.
Land Raider Redeemers and Stormravens are probably done, at least in multiples. The Stormraven was already only very good in the Ironstorm detachment and maybe in the Company of Hunters, and neither of those are very good anymore. Shame the Company of Hunters didn't get any love, but then I feel that it really doesn't need the love so much as the units it supposedly benefits (let's face it Outriders just aren't a good datasheet).
The buff to the Unforgiven Task Force is just not enough to make it competitive; the detachment is still just a worse Gladius. The Inner Circle Task Force, on the other hand, combined with the buffs to Deathwing Knights and perhaps Inner Circle Companions, is probably much better and might be an actual choice now. I do find it interesting that they did nothing to stop the ability of Hellblasters to benefit so long as they are with Azrael (or another character with the Deathwing keyword).
On the subject of The Lion, it's nice that his FnP aura is worthwhile again, and that he can walk through walls like infantry, but I still think 300 points is too steep for what he brings. Then again, if it helps keep the expensive Deathwing stuff alive, maybe he's worth it? At least now he's worth consideration and not just a meme or a shelf decoration.
Overall we'll have to see how we end up. Personally I'm thinking of returning to the Gladius, and I'll probably be giving Inner Circle Companions a try, as well as the revamped Deathwing Knights. Not sure how soon I'll be able to test everything, but I'll probably post in this thread with my thoughts once I get a game or two in.
The list ran 3 bricks of Deathwing Knights, the Biologis/Eradicator Fire Discipline Special, and Asmodai with some Inner Circle Companions in an Impulsor, as well as a Land Raider Redeemer for the Eradicator unit. Azrael put in an appearance also because of course he did. This list is exactly the kind of thing I want to try, although I lack sufficient Eradicators to actually do it (maybe I'll get some more soon), and I also don't have an Impulsor either. This list would become incredibly nasty on the Assault Doctrine turn. In any case, it's great to see this kind of thing doing well, and it gives me some good inspiration for what I'd like to run in DA going forward.
Deathwing Knights and Inner Circle Companions still benefit from Gladius, its just not mandatory anymore!
I took an Inner Circle Task Force for a competitive test game against a Tau army. The increase in DW Knights meant that I had to drop a character to achieve deep strike potential for all squads.
The new detachment rule was great. Being able to make all non-controlled objectives a Vowed Objective was a big quality of life improvement. Deathwing Knights with Maces can now do real work against vehicles/monsters, and being able to use the Inner Circle stratagem to reroll 1s or full rerolls on the Vowed Objective meant that my dudes could reliably take down the big Tau suits. Rerolling 4s with AP-2 and D2 with the number of attacks that DW Knights can generate at WS 2+ makes them terrors again.
The changes to Captains and "free CP" took some thinking, but being able to pop Armour of Contempt and -1 to Wound kept my Turn 1 deep striking Deathwing Knights and their Captain alive on an objective. Poor Belial will continue to compile reports on the Rock...
The Inner Circle Companions with Azrael were kind-of poaching going up against Tau, but they certainly blended big Tau infantry squads and some tougher Tau stuff. "Its a Ginsu. It can cut through a tin can and then cut through a tomato!"
One list is a Gladius, the other one is an honest-to-God Inner Circle Task Force list. Both lists have 3 units of Deathwing Knights, confirming that they are major meta contenders (as if we didn't know that already). I like the Inner Circle list a lot, as putting a Judiciar with Inner Circle Companions is not something I had actually considered before (and yet it's brilliant!), and optionally for certain matchups one could instead put Azrael with them (matchups where the Judiciar just won't matter, like Tau). Jump Pack Assault Intercessors are also looking spicy these days, as a lot of Marines (especially Blood Angels for obvious reasons) are taking them as skirmish/utility pieces. Perhaps it's time to shelve Inceptors in favor of the much cheaper Jump Ints.
Both players went with similar builds, with 2 bricks of Deathwing Knights, some Inner Circle Companions, Azrael, and a Fire Discipline Aggressor brick, plus some number of Jump Assault Ints. The big news is that both lists ran THE LION! Looks like maybe he's back on the menu, boys! One of the lists ran a Repulsor to put the Aggressors inside for transport shenanigans, the other took a second Inner Circle Companion unit with a Judiciar for Fights First (probably a good call with Blood Angels on the rampage right now).
Azrael and Deathwing Knights just went up in points. The Lion and some Ravenieng went down.
Azrael will likely remain auto-include, but lists with triple Deathwing Knights will have to cut something. Gladius Fire Discipline went up, as did Eradicators and the Biologis. It is clear that the balance team is watching event results, as the main DA list has taken multiple hits today.
Yeah, the DA Gladius build got nuked from orbit, but it might still be viable, just with a unit of JumpAssInts removed or something (considering those went up too). My planned version for a tournament in a couple of weeks is slightly less affected as I was using the Lion and a Ballistus Dread, but it still went up 80-ish points. I'm actually debating cutting a unit of DWK and taking other stuff; I would be running some Inner Circle Companions but I'll never get those painted in time.
My hot takes on the changed units:
-Azrael: +10: Yeah this is probably long overdue to be fair. We're still going to take him, he's still pretty amazing for his points.
-Deathwing Knights: +15: Another one we all saw coming, these guys are probably still viable but possibly not as spammable.
-Land Speeder Vengeance: -20: Probably still not viable, especially with the big decrease on Storm Speeders making them look even better.
-Ravenwing Command Squad: -10: Very nice and makes Ravenwing lists slightly cheaper, but probably not enough to suddenly make Ravenwing stuff good (Black Knights didn't get touched and are still not good enough).
-Sammael: -15: He was overcosted before, but now he's a little more reasonable. I'm still not sure he's worth taking, as the units he can lead just aren't that good.
-Lion El'jonson: -15: He was already viable as a fringe pick before, but now we might see a bit more of him on tables, and that's a good thing.
-Apothecary Biologis: +15: This was probably a bit heavy handed, as the Biologis wasn't seeing any play outside of the Gladius. And now he definitely won't.
-Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs: +10 (for 5 man units only): Probably reasonable as they were just a little too efficient as scoring/position pieces. I think they're still viable in that role.
-Ballistus Dreadnought: -10: I think people have been sleeping on these bad bois, and now they just got even cheaper. Honestly they rock, as they don't need Oath to do their wicked work. At this new cost, they'll probably freeze out the Predator Annihilator though (not like anyone besides me was using those).
-Captain in Phobos Armor: -10: Nice to see this guy get cheaper, but Dark Angels weren't using him before, and I doubt we're going to use him now.
-Eradicator Squad: +5 per 3 models: Honestly this is kind of a slap on the wrist; these guys are still pretty nasty for their cost.
-Heavy Intercessor Squad: -5/5 models: These guys keep getting cheaper, yet still no one takes them. Damn shame, as the models are cool. I just can't think of anything they can do that another unit can't do better or more efficiently (especially in Dark Angels).
-Invader ATV: -10: This change does benefit Ravenwing lists that wanted to run them, as it does also make ATVs cheaper in Outrider squads. It's still not enough to get them there, but I suppose every little bit helps. Maybe Ravenwing will be viable one day.
-Invictor Warsuit: -15: This change is enough to get me thinking about Invictors at least, but I'm not sure exactly how I would use them. Maybe there's a fringe strategy for these out there somewhere?
-Reiver Squad: -10/5 models: These guys are now absurdly cheap; maybe they could see play as mission pieces? I doubt it, as they lack the "uppy downy" trick that Scouts have, and they can't move as fast after Deep Striking as Jump Intercessors.
-Storm Speeder Hailstrike: -15: This thing's guns are still kind of pitiful, but it does have a somewhat useful ability, and now it's cheap enough to maybe get there? Not sure you'd want to spend points on this instead of another damage dealer or mission play piece though, even if it's now cheaper.
-Storm Speeder Hammerstrike: -25: Okay, this thing is seriously nasty for its cost now, and really makes the Land Speeder Vengeance look sad. I might actually consider running multiples of this in some lists.
-Storm Speeder Thunderstrike: -10: The Thunderstrike got the least points drop of the three Storm Speeders, but it was the best one. Not sure but what it's been dethroned by the Hammerstrike, but I think it's still worth taking a single one both for its own firepower and as a buff piece.
-Suppressor Squad: -10: A nice points drop, but I'm still not sure DA need these in any way.
-Terminator Assault Squad: -5/5 models: Just a token points decrease, but we'd still rather have Deathwing Knights.
-Terminator Squad: -5/5 models: Another token decrease, and a little insulting that they didn't do the same for Deathwing Terminators. These guys still won't see play, most likely, except maybe in some fringe Inner Circle Task Force builds.
-Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs: +5/5 models: Not sure these guys deserved this, but we probably have our Blood Angels buddies to blame for this one. This will hurt ICTF builds more than anything else.
-Fire Discipline: +10: This enhancement is what makes the Gladius detachment really sing, so it's no surprise that it's going up. Between Erads, this, and the Biologis, that whole package goes up by 35 points, which hurts. I think it's still good though.
After these changes, I suspect that DA players may stick with the Gladius, but there will obviously be various retoolings of the list to account for most of the good stuff in it getting price bumps. I don't think Ravenwing got enough to make them suddenly viable, and nothing else changed enough to make me think DA are going to have much else to pivot to. We'll have to see.
3mw on #mpulsor is less of issue for me than dead hellalaster.
). Seriously, put that unit in just about any Marine detachment and it'll do well, even the bad ones, as it really doesn't need a huge amount of stratagem support. In detachments like the Ironstorm, the only drawback of AzzyBlasters (I shall call that unit that from now on) is the opportunity cost of not taking a more "thematic" choice that does have stratagem support (like vehicles in the Ironstorm).
