10th Edition changed a lot of things for the Talons of the Emperor. Here is a quick overview:
Here are some of the most relevant changes compared to 9th edition:
-Martial Katahs are now chosen at the beginning of the fight phase (yours and your opponents) and last until the end of the fight phase, giving you way more flexibility than before and we only have 3 options now, but all of them are really good.
-Characters are still amazing, but only give their buffs to one unit which they are attached to (this is not unique to Custodes, but how most character units work in 10th)
-Our infantry shooting got a lot better, particularly on Custodian Guard equipped with Guardian Spears.
-Jetbikes are not as good as they were in 9th.
-we still have some of the most powerful stratagems in the game.
-Fight First is THE most powerful ability to have in the fight phase, because in 10th edition if your unit has the Fight First ability, they are going to strike before your opponent does even if your unit has been charged....and we have rather easy access to get this ability via Trajann or using a stratagem. This combined with the new Katah system makes Custodes an absolute nightmare to deal with for any melee focused army.
-Castellan Axes got buffed to 3 damage, but because they strike at -1WS, have one fewer attacks and only -1 AP, the Guardian Spear is the better option in almost all cases.
-Squad sizes are weird in 10th. Custodian Guard can be selected in squads of 4-10 and Wardens can be selected in squads of 3-6...for some reason. This is not exclusive to Custodes, but a general theme in 10th.
-Vexillus Praetors are gone as individual character units. You now buy them as an upgrade for your units to increase their OC value.
-Sisters are no longer completely immune to psychic attacks and effects, but rather have a 3+ Feelnopain against everything psychic thrown against them. Not sure how I feel about this honestly, since Sisters already don't seem that impressive in 10th regarding the rest of their rules.
-Storm Shields now give +1 Wound to the bearer instead of +1 Armor Save, which makes it a good option to be equipped on a few guys in a big Custodian Guard squad to tank damage 3 hits.
Unit Analysis:
Spoiler:
Characters:
-Trajann Valoris: the old man is still amazing, arguably better than he was in 9th edition. When he leads a unit they can ignore all negative modifiers (except to their armor save) and he still slaps in melee. What makes him an auto include in my opinion is the Moment Shackle, which gives him the ability to make him and his unit fight first (the other two abilities of the moment shackle are nice, but fight first is so powerful that you are mostly going to pick fight first) which is just bonkers good.
-Valerian: if Valerian leads a unit, enemy units get -1 AP on their weapons in the fight phase, he also has decent melee. Valerian is good, but unfortunately for him we are really spoiled for choice in 10th regarding characters, so I believe he won't see as much play because there are just stronger options in our index.
-Aleya: Valerians BFF and certified badass. She's even better in 10th. She has great melee, she gives Fight First to the squad she leads and gives her squad +1 to hit if they are below starting strength. The problem is that unfortunately the squads she can lead are not that good and/or overshadowed by other options.
-Shield Captain: All three Shield Captain variants provide value because they let you use one stratagem for free once per battle round, even if that strat has already been used, which is a very powerful ability. That being said the standard Shield Captain was rarely played in previous editions. He was never a bad unit, but simply overshadowed by better options...well, no more! The Shield Captain is really good in 10th because he let's his unit use two Katahs instead of one in the fight phase and once per game lets his unit use all three Katahs at the same time.
-Allarus Shield Captain: the Terminator Captain is still good. He also has access to the aforementioned ability to make one strat per battle round free, which is great. He can also fight on death on a 2+ if he hasn't already fought. Not bad, but the standard Shield Captain provides more value in my opinion.
-Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: the infamous bike captain is in a weird spot in 10th edition. In a vacuum his rules are great. He also lets you use one strat for free each battle round and he and his unit can consolidate 6" instead of 3" which is always good. He also lets you fall back at the end of the fight phase once per game or lets you make a normal move at the end of the fight phase if you are not within engagement range which is amazing.....it's just that in these scenarios he would be leading a unit of jetbikes....and jetbikes are not that great in 10th.
-Blade Champion: The Blade Champ got introduced in 9th ed and was a premium beatstick, but was ultimately overshadowed by other characters that were better force multipliers. In 10th he i very much worth including in most lists because once per game he and the unit he is leading can advance and charge, which is just such a valuable ability for a mostly foot slogging army like Custodes. He is also still very powerful in melee and a prime candidate to lead a big unit of Custodian Guard, because like all characters leading a unit he also benefits from their ability to re-roll all wounds on an objective you control, which is hilarious with his dmg3 devastating wounds profile. If you roll hot, he can chuck out a ridiculous amount of mortal wounds.
-Knight Centuria: makes sisters unit faster and charge better...not bad like Aleya, it's just that Sisters are not that impressive in 10th.
Troops:
-Custodian Guard: Custodian Guard are one of the strongest units in our Index. They always re-roll 1s to wound and if you are on an objective you control, they re-roll all wounds, which is amazing. They can also double shoot once per game, which makes them surprisingly deadly in ranged combat also.
-Prosecutors: Still a cheap backline unit for holding objectives, honestly won't do much else.
Sagittarum Custodes: : The Sagittarum are still good in my opinion, but you have to take them in units of 5 now, which is a shame because losing the option of taking a unit of 3 as a backline unit feels bad. 10th ed unit sizes strike again.
They have a neat synergy with the Coronus: Sagittarum can get Devastating Wounds on their Bolters once per game and the Coronus lets a unit that just disembarket re-roll all wounds in the shooting phase. It's cute, but probably not worth the investment in light of better options.
Elites:
-Wardens: Oh boy...Wardens got quite the glow up in 10th. They were already a really good unit in 9th edition, but their new Living Fortress ability takes them over the top in 10th...they can get a 4+ Feelnopain once per battle, which basically makes them an immovable object for one phase. They are also -1 to be wounded if a character is leading the unit (which is always going to be the case) and if they are targeted with an attack with higher strength than their toughness as a cherry on top. Wardens are going to find a place in most Custodes lists.
-Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought: Still ugly but now an actual option. It's really tough due to its unyielding ancient ability, which lets the Contemptor get back up on a 2+ with D6 wounds after being destroyed the first time.
-Allarus Terminators: T7 Custodes in shiny Terminator Armor? Yes, please! Allarus Terminators are awsome in 10th. They are tough, they re-roll all failed wounds against vehicles, monsters and characters. Also their "From golden Light" ability gives them good mobility for mission play. Great unit.
-Vigilators: Badass Sisters with badass Swords. They actually have good melee, but our Custodes units do melee even better.
Forgeworld:
-Contemptor Galatus Dreadnought: still the coolest looking drednought in the game. Unfortunately all Forgeworld dreads suffered a nerf to their movement from 9" to 6" which is a massive nerf for a dreadnought that does nothing than melee. If you manage to get the Galatus into melee, it's going to do work and be a major headache for your opponent since the Galatus Shield now provides -1 to wound in the fight phase for enemy units, which makes the Galatus extremely tough in melee.
-Contemptor Achillus Dreadnought: the second coolest looking dreadnought in the game, but it suffers from the same problem as the Galatus. The movement nerf is brutal on these two dreads. The Achillus still does a lot of dmg in melee and now also can dish out mortal wounds after making a charge, which is great if you manage to actually get it there.
-Aquilon Terminators: still the most chonky Terminators in town, but they really took a hit in 10th. They can re-roll failed wound rolls of 1 if they are shooting the nearest enemy unit, which is nice I guess, but their melee weapon options really took a nerf compared to 9th, especially the power fist. They are also more expensive per model than Allarus Terminators, which are just better anyway.
Fast Attack:
-Vertus Praetors: well....they can't be good all the time, right? Our infamous dawneagle jetbikes have always been a powerful unit, but they really took a dive in 10th. They are not as tough as terminators, salvo launchers don't do as much damage as before and struggle to wound vehicles and they are expensive at 90 points per model. They still get +1 to wound on the charge and can do mortal wounds when moving across enemy units, but ultimately they are overcosted for what they do in my opinion.
-Witchseekers: Sisters with flamers that force battle shock tests.
Forgeworld:
-Venatari: They can fall back and charge now, which is good, but their pistols are only dmg1 now and they cost 235 for three dudes, that's too expensive for what they do in my opinion. Also the lances option went from S6 to S4 on their shooting profile for some reason.
-Agamatus Jetbikes: Similar issues as the standard Vertus Praetors. Not T7 for some reason, expensive and don't hit as hard as other options we have access to.
Heavy Support: -Venerable Land Raider: it's actually not bad now, which is kinda baffling after such a long time in dumpster tier. It's rather tough, provides some anti tank firepower and has assault ramp. It also gets the Martial Katah rule, which means our Land Raiders know Karate.
Forgeworld:
-Telemon Heavy Dreadnought: Oh how the mighty have fallen. The Telemon is not much tougher than a venerable contemptor, if you play him with double fists you get no additional benefits in melee because you can only attack with one of them which is just stupid and the firepower if just OK.
-Caladius Grav-Tank: Best value anti tank firepower we have access to. Amazing unit and is going to see a lot of play for sure.
Flyer:
Forgeworld:
-Orion Dropship: proof that custodes truly have the most pimped up rides in the imperium. Still very expensive and if you use it for transporting troops and/or a dreanought its basically the definition of "all eggs in one basket".
-Ares Gunship: provides the heaviest anti-tank firepower custodes have access to. Probably still too expensive.
Dedicated Transport:
-Anathema Psykana Rhino: Sisters are not that great in 10th, but if you are hellbent on playing them, some Vigilators with Aleya in a Rhino might be nice.
Forgeworld:
-Coronus Grav-Carrier: I still want to love the Coronus, but I am not sure if it's going to find a place in any list.
Enhancements
Spoiler:
-Inspirational Exemplar: bearer has a leadership of 5+ and can un-battle shock one unit once per game. Not bad
-Veiled Blade: +2 attacks and once per game triple the OC of the bearer. Great choice for the Blade Champ.
-Ceaseless Hunter: bearers unit can fall back and charge and once per game can move up to 6" if enemy unit ends normal move, advance or fall back within 9". Strongest ability of the four enhancement options by far.
-Unstoppable Destroyer: Mortal wounds on the charge and can force battle shock tests. Not bad, but Veiled Blade and Ceaseless Hunter are just far better.
Stratagems
Spoiler:
S-Tier: you are going to use these in every single game
A-Tier: Very strong stragems
B-Tier: Situationally useful
C-Tier: Not that good
-Arcane Genetic Alchemy: -1 dmg on enemy attacks for 2CP. This is extremely powerful on Custodes bodies and you are going to use this in most of your games.
-Unwavering Sentinels: gives your unit fight first if it is within range of an objective marker. This is probably one of the most powerful stratagems in the game and one of the reasons Custodes are one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful melee army currently.
-Slayers of Nightmares: +1 to wound against vehicles or monsters in the fight phase. Great value in 10th with the overall increase in toughness.
-Vigil Unending: bring back one destroyed Custodes model (can only use this once per unit). Bringing back things like an Allarus Terminator with this strat is just amazing value.
-Sworn Guardians: one objective you control becomes sticky. Great strat for a low unit count army like Custodes
-Avenge the Fallen: +1 Attack when under starting strength +2 attacks instead when under half strength. Extra attacks are always powerful on high quality profiles like Custodes, but maybe a bit more situational than the other options. Still a good strat to have.
Not a single bad strat among these and some of the most powerful ones in the game.
Custodes came out swinging in 10th edition with one of the strongest indices. They are still a hyper elite army with amazing melee and some of the best strats and characters in the game.
I know we've been seeing big Custodian Guard bricks doing well; that Fights First thing is NASTY on a unit like that! Personally if I was going to run that unit I'd take a few with sword & board to mess up 3-damage ranged attack strategies.
Worth noting that while AGA is a hefty 2 CPs your shield captain can make it free.
I've also had a lot of luck daisy-chaining the custodian guard to sticky multiple objectives.
I'd bump down Avenge the Fallen to B-tier. Highly situational, boosting 5 attacks to 6 is a marginal improvement especially when used on a smaller unit. The real use is for that block of 10 that's down to 4 and increasing output by 40%.
Venatari are overpriced. BUT, they are still powerful disruptive units. They are guaranteed a charge when using rapid ingress and can do so as soon as your t2 (if you go second). They have made their points back in about half of the games I've used them and provided valuable utility in each.
Being our only real anti tank, the caladius is extremely good in that role. When there are no tanks or monsters it's not quite so scary but can still make things like terminators or wraith constructs scared. Also a good bet for sniping characters exposed by your bolter shots. I think it's worth taking one per 1000 points.
Niiai wrote: I have to ask: Does not almost all units make the charge after rapid ingress?
Often, yes. But terminators walking 5" for a 4" charge is very likely but not a guarantee and have no way around screens. Armies that have strats/rules that let you move in response to other units/redeploy (grey knights, eldar) can also make the charge unviable. Units with a strong overwatch can do some damage before you get to act, while fly and positioning after their movement allows you to hide behind terrain if you have to and still make the charge.
Venatari can fly over screens to get the juicy bits.
Finally, free RI is nothing to scoff at, those CPs are a hot commodity for custodes.
Niiai wrote: I have to ask: Does not almost all units make the charge after rapid ingress?
Often, yes. But terminators walking 5" for a 4" charge is very likely but not a guarantee and have no way around screens. Armies that have strats/rules that let you move in response to other units/redeploy (grey knights, eldar) can also make the charge unviable. Units with a strong overwatch can do some damage before you get to act, while fly and positioning after their movement allows you to hide behind terrain if you have to and still make the charge.
Venatari can fly over screens to get the juicy bits.
Finally, free RI is nothing to scoff at, those CPs are a hot commodity for custodes.
This is one of those things where on the board, I love venetari. I just CANT justify taking 3 of them for 235 points when 3 allarus are 195, or an entire 5 man guard squad being 225. It's nifty that yhey are more agile, but we don't really need to be an agile army. We hold middle and deny enemy primary while claiming secondaries where we can.
You could make the argument that with their speed they are better for objective Play, but then they aren't fighting and doing the job a 35 point exaction squad or a 75 pt assassin could do just fine so I feel it's even more of a waste for then to not be fighting.
Free RI is a thing but I'd rather use it for free via attached shield captain(abilities work off board to 0 cp strat) to a giant blob, or spend the points on a different blob with blade champ. Either way w/ceaseless hunter you probably gonna be fine for positioning l.
Venatari are overpriced. BUT, they are still powerful disruptive units.
Like I said, they cost too much for what they do. That doesn't make them useless. But it's true that terminators are almost always the better choice. I didn't take them because I thought they'd be hot gak, I took them because I love the models and wanted to give it a go. And I found that they are strong, just not worth the price tag. We definitely have stronger choices for similar roles.
I'm curious about peoples thoughts on caladius, obviously it's great from a points to output perspective. But I've been feeling them as more of a drawback in reality, I been taking 2 and a lot of the times one will pop good dmg and the other totally whiffs and then and the slap back being the only tanks it almost feels like I'm giving the opponent a more efficient shooting option for their big guns instead of bringing in more options for me. Maybe my lucks just bad but overall I've been happier running more dudes instead
Ecdain wrote: I'm curious about peoples thoughts on caladius, obviously it's great from a points to output perspective. But I've been feeling them as more of a drawback in reality, I been taking 2 and a lot of the times one will pop good dmg and the other totally whiffs and then and the slap back being the only tanks it almost feels like I'm giving the opponent a more efficient shooting option for their big guns instead of bringing in more options for me. Maybe my lucks just bad but overall I've been happier running more dudes instead
Great anti tank. but once all the tanks are gone they're just taking up space.
I had a game the other day where I got two wounds on a Russ and rolled snake eyes other guy proceeded to shoot everything at it and though it died it took literally every shot they had, allowing my infantry to close the gap and ultimately win me the game. However, on the same day I also one-shotted a wraithlord and made a dreadknight hide like a little bitch instead of advancing on my lines.
It's quick, scary (rightfully so or maybe not) and can hold backfield objectives. worth the points in my opinion.
Niiai wrote: The Rhino got updated with fire deck 2. That makes the minimum squad of witchunters in a rhino much more tasty for 135 points.
I often find my minimum squad of 4 regular sisters get killed as soon as possible without much effort by the opponent
Honestly my issue with sisters this edition is the fact exaction squads exist xD, prosecutors and maybe even vigilators would look so much tastier if I didn't have that comparison. It's great rhinos got firing deck though, was weird how some had and some didn't
Hey all, has anyone been trying kyria draxus? Used her in a game v knights yesterday and she did her job perfectly. I just worry about failing the roll for hiding.. doea 16% chance of failure warrant not running her?
Sisters losing M-7 was a big blow to sword sisters. I would have liked to play this edition, but I fear my attempts to even learn this edition have ruined my taste for it. It's no longer intuitive playing Custodes. Oh this axe is less valuable than a spear, why? Reasons? Ok....And our bikes Hurricane bolters now shoot less shots than our other vehicles? Gotcha. So all my pre-built models are worthless except for spear guardians and a badly painted Ven Dread. Ok....do you even want me to enjoy this edition?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sisters losing M-7 was a big blow to sword sisters. I would have liked to play this edition, but I fear my attempts to even learn this edition have ruined my taste for it. It's no longer intuitive playing Custodes. Oh this axe is less valuable than a spear, why? Reasons? Ok....And our bikes Hurricane bolters now shoot less shots than our other vehicles? Gotcha. So all my pre-built models are worthless except for spear guardians and a badly painted Ven Dread. Ok....do you even want me to enjoy this edition?
Yeah bikes getting smacked with the nerf bat sucked, and having to remodel my axes into spears wasn't quick, but I enjoy kitbashing so was a fun project. However I love that I'm running wardens, allarus, and guard and all are amazing instead of just spamming one thing like bikes last edition. Sure a lot of people are just spamming 10 man bricks but that's not needed at all or even better. Just a choice.
I do wish that axes v spears was a bit more of a choice, but thebaoear being good against literally everything has me less sad
Sisters lost a 7" move but knight centuria add 2" to their move so unless you want a *pure* sisterhood force you can give up to 3 squads 8" moves.
Given that they also add 2" to advance and charge rolls I think it's pretty much an automatic choice to add a sword-armed character to each squad of vigilators.
I am very sad about the bikes. I have been desperate to play a biker list since 8th, and this is kinda the nail in the coffin for 10th, or 2k games. I find it surprising that GW actually wants the faction to basically be JUST our troops, with a few characters, one of which is a BL character. Has any faction even had a BL character be one of it's best units?
locarno24 wrote: Sisters lost a 7" move but knight centuria add 2" to their move so unless you want a *pure* sisterhood force you can give up to 3 squads 8" moves.
Given that they also add 2" to advance and charge rolls I think it's pretty much an automatic choice to add a sword-armed character to each squad of vigilators.
I don't really know what role sisters have. Three of them is 45 the same as a Custodian Guard. But I don't know if they are more offensive then a Custodian Guard. And they die very fast.
Custodian Guard is the best melee model in games of 10th from what I can see from tournament reports. I find it hard to justify a MSU melee unit. The character addition also increases the price by a lot.
But for me at least it is not tempting to take them.
locarno24 wrote: Sisters lost a 7" move but knight centuria add 2" to their move so unless you want a *pure* sisterhood force you can give up to 3 squads 8" moves.
Given that they also add 2" to advance and charge rolls I think it's pretty much an automatic choice to add a sword-armed character to each squad of vigilators.
I don't really know what role sisters have. Three of them is 45 the same as a Custodian Guard. But I don't know if they are more offensive then a Custodian Guard. And they die very fast.
Custodian Guard is the best melee model in games of 10th from what I can see from tournament reports. I find it hard to justify a MSU melee unit. The character addition also increases the price by a lot.
But for me at least it is not tempting to take them.
Whether they're cost effective enough to be tempting or not is a different matter but they do do a few jobs better than custodes. I'm not saying they're not fragile or that they're necessarily cost-effective. The big issue (much like inquisition units) is that they're matchup-specific.
3 vigilators are OC3 versus OC2 for a single Custodian.
They have a *slightly* higher damage output against a space marine-esque target due to [Devastating Wounds], and that difference gets more noticeable against anything with a 4+ invulnerable save or 2+ armour save (elite infantry) and especially against 1-wound models like celestians or bloodletters, because mortal Wounds 'splash' on overkill.
Obviously they really come into their own where the combination of [Anti-Psyker 4+] and [Devastating Wounds] applies. Synapse Creatures, Dreadknights, Greater Daemons, Knights Abominant and so on take scary amounts of damage for a cheap expendable unit.
Personally I wouldn't bother buying a rhino for a 5 man squad though. Unless an anathema psykana unit is full strength with an attached leader its basically a disposable pocket change unit in a custodes force.
They get 'firing deck 2' - so only 2 can shoot. Kind of a waste with an all-flamer squad, especially since witchseekers have 'scout' baked into their points.
While five S4 flamers are not great I had a lot of sickness with witchseekers in rhinoes in 9th edition. They could shoot/movement block or just hold objectives cheap. The Rhino was also great itilaty
However in 10th transition they lost assault, ap1, and one point of movement. I have not had enough games to figure then out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While five S4 flamers are not great I had a lot of sickness with witchseekers in rhinoes in 9th edition. They could shoot/movement block or just hold objectives cheap. The Rhino was also great itilaty
However in 10th transition they lost assault, ap1, and one point of movement. I have not had enough games to figure then out.
They're much more of a delaying/harassing unit now.
Scout 6" means you don't *have* to use a rhino to get them into position, and overwatch let's you react to ANY movement ending within 12" with a bunch of automatic hits, not just people trying to charge them. On top of that, the battleshock effect can stop their target using stratagems, which can mess up a unit's ability to attack, or even remove their ability to co troll objectives mid-tutn if your opponent ignores them.
4 sisters is easy enough to kill but at 60 points you don't really care and if it wastes a turn of a much more expensive unit digging them out, that's probably enough to justify them.
cuda1179 wrote: Brace yourselves boys, Rumor has it that the FAQ tomorrow will limit us to 5-man squads.
That would suck, but at the same time it would also free Custodes up to lean into MSU builds instead of the giant deathstar units. Some players are already finding success with that style of list, as today's Goonhammer article showed.
I am hearing point increases on a sliding scale based on win% over 50%. So like Eldar might get a 20% points increase, We might get 5%. This came from a very rough source, basically the bathroom wall scribbles of the interwebs. I would much rather pay an increase in cost over a nerf to our structure. So few of our units are even worth their cost. Wardens are sure to take a nerf, but I'm hopeful they might throw Vertus Praetor's a bone, maybe a boost in AT missile attacks? Back to d3 shots? Or just flat 2?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I am hearing point increases on a sliding scale based on win% over 50%. So like Eldar might get a 20% points increase, We might get 5%. This came from a very rough source, basically the bathroom wall scribbles of the interwebs. I would much rather pay an increase in cost over a nerf to our structure. So few of our units are even worth their cost. Wardens are sure to take a nerf, but I'm hopeful they might throw Vertus Praetor's a bone, maybe a boost in AT missile attacks? Back to d3 shots? Or just flat 2?
Wardens need to get a more logical selection of unit sizes. Why is a unit that is sold in boxes of 5 only able to be taken in units of 3 or 6?
If I guess to guess the reasoning was that the Wardens box could be used to build a Shield Captain and a Vexilla, so you only have 3 Wardens left (back when a Vexilla was a separate unit). To me it's fine to have a minimum of 3 for the unit.
But putting the next bracket at 6 instead of 5 doesn't make sense. For me I have 9 Wardens with one of them built as a Shield Captain, so while a group of 6 and group of 3 works for me I don't think it works for many people.
I'm hoping they make the unit size of 3/4/5 instead of the odd 3/6 we've had so far.
EDIT: Spoke too soon, Wardens are now 4/5. Also our fight first strat is no longer a battle tactic so Shield Captain's can't choose it for free. The change seems fair, however, I don't think the Shield Captain needed a points hike to go along with it.
The change to Devastating Wounds is going to be a pretty massive nerf to the Custodes detachment. The number of things that create MW now is severely reduced.
Ok so the Dataslate is out, and in my opinion the biggest nerf to custodes is not even faction specific but regarding devastating wounds.
With devastating wounds now just ignoring any save and not being mortal wounds, our 4+ feelnopain against mortals got a lot less valuable and custodes got a LOT less durable against devastating wounds.
The changes to unit sizes and to the unwavering sentinels strat are fine honestly.
Limiting Bikes to a max squad size of 3 is hilarious because nobody was going to play them anyway.
Edit: I think we're still fine but I find it hard to judge how the dev wounds change is ultimately going to impact us. If it is a severe impact in that were much easier to kill while also being more expensive, it could be a problem.
Yeah, Custards got rogered but good. Wardens are now locked in at 5 man squads, are worse, but cost MORE than Guard. Guard now cost what they did in 9th, and the best way to kill us now is to toss buckets of shots and pray for 6s.
So as someone who never encounters sister players, do miracle 6s still generate Devastating Wounds?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, Custards got rogered but good. Wardens are now locked in at 5 man squads, are worse, but cost MORE than Guard. Guard now cost what they did in 9th, and the best way to kill us now is to toss buckets of shots and pray for 6s.
So as someone who never encounters sister players, do miracle 6s still generate Devastating Wounds?
They might if Sisters had any weapons that caused Dev Wounds.
They have the epic hero banner that can give to melee attacks but that's dam1 or 2. 6's way too valuable for that and 1 per phase big deal. 2 dam. Yey.
Beside that i don't recall devastating wounds. Sisters light onthat.
Well, at least the FW termies and jetbikes have a point now. They are the same costs as the codex versions. Add to that the jetbikes can still have units of 6 if that's your thing.
So im playing on Wednesday and I want to try the landraider in a serious list. Ive been testing it for months and it honestly performs very well for me. I usually deliver a blade champ with either 5 wardens for a bit of longevity or 5 spear guards if I need to kill something important on an objective somewhere. the 4 las canon shots often take down stuff for me too and the oc5 body is just around great. Yeah, I give up bring it down but hey, what can you do?
my list is:
blade Champ - veiled blade
termie cap - hunter
2x5 spear guards
6 alarus
5 wardens
landraider
that leaves me with 250 points and I can't decide if I want callidus assassin and 3x4 witch seekers or just straight up 5 spear guards more?
the first package gives a bit more control and flexibility and we all know the callidus is amazing. But 5 guards more gives me a whopping 5 units that can actually kill stuff.
Have you considered adding a plain Inquisitor to the squad in the landraider? If you target the squad with a stratagem you get a CP back on 3+ for 55 points. Seems quite good to me.
It looks like it will do absolutely nothing to fix our glaring problems. Unless they completely break the lore, we can't have librarians, which means the idea of the thing in the back being a psychic hood is right out. If it's a new character/HQ model ala Blade master, then who cares? The best we can hope for is that it's a "hoplite" style unit that ignores the entire 10th wounding BS, and somehow is effective against tanks.
My honest guess: it's a BL character like Captain Walken.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It looks like it will do absolutely nothing to fix our glaring problems. Unless they completely break the lore, we can't have librarians, which means the idea of the thing in the back being a psychic hood is right out. If it's a new character/HQ model ala Blade master, then who cares? The best we can hope for is that it's a "hoplite" style unit that ignores the entire 10th wounding BS, and somehow is effective against tanks.
My honest guess: it's a BL character like Captain Walken.
Our glaring problems? We where the 3rd most powerfull faction until the nerfs. We work just fine, there are no glaring problems.
Anything that can be taken away with a flick of the wand can be put back with a flick of the wand. The only thing we do bad is bad design space. Having the best melee army be focused on fight first leaves very little room for counterplay from other melee armies.
If it is a meltaspear in plastic perhaps they are phasing out the Forge world models.
The current problem is that the melta options are quite bad. But this will release with the codex, so probably balanced on release. Or perhaps it is a single character
(I do ha e Fezzil on ignore. I have the worst cases on ignore. But then you get curious and reveal anyway.)
The main thing I'm hoping for when our codex drops is for the jetbikes to be viable again. I have 9 of them and would like a reason to put them on the table (or rather a reason to build the rest of them, most of them are still on sprues at the moment).
Played a couple of games with my Custodes. I personally feel the point costs hurt more than the loss of the 4++ against Dev wounds and the strat hit. I'd likely reverse them and leave everything else the same and we'd possibly be solid.
Our faction is supposed to be one of the hardest to kill. Now with the revised 10th wounding systems, we're no longer that. I'd gladly trade the Null abilities for the ability to actually make our "highest cost faction in the game" actually stay on the board a bit longer. YMMV
So, just idilly browsing the AC model range & index units....
Is there anything interesting to be done with the various Sisters of Silence units here in 40k?
Any good reason to invest $12/model into these unuts?
For the $ they just don't seem to bring much to the game, let alone this faction.
maybe a unit of all flamers, but ....
Or am I completely missing something as I look at these units?
The flamer ones, with their scout move, could potentially be a nice disruption piece, and their overwatch isn't nothing considering it all auto-hits. Maybe cheap enough for mission play too so you don't have to dedicate a 200-point Custodian Guard unit for that.
I'm too salty over 10th to post positively about this, but I'm just going to say I want multiple captains of a single type back. Are we the only ones that get this type of restriction in 10th?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm too salty over 10th to post positively about this, but I'm just going to say I want multiple captains of a single type back. Are we the only ones that get this type of restriction in 10th?
I thought, since the start of 10th, Custodes didn't have any restrictions on HQ's other than "Epic Hero" and the "rule of 3"; I'm not seeing an error message in the App with taking more than 1.
So, i've been playing full infantry for a long time now. I found that the full 6 man allarus unit with a captain + ceaseless hunter is completely bonkers. Back then I could often only really get 4 blobs total if I wanted the calidus for objectives and reasonable character support.
So for the last many months ive been building around that block. I recently ended up playing landraider plus 3 blobs just to mix things up.
But now, with the points decreases ive been able to construct I five-blob build by cutting one termie for twin 5mans plus a captain in one unit making it 6/5 models. I haven't tried it yet, and I will probably miss the big seven man termie blob, but on the other hand: having two such units at my disposal seems so incredible strong. Honestly, these guys just dont die and their shooting is completely bonkers. Being able to resurrect two alarus with the Strat seems busted (actually now I want to run 3x4 instead).
Any ways, here's my latest list:
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [1,995pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachments: Shield Host
Show/Hide Options: Agents of the Imperium are visible, Imperial Knights are visible, Legends are visible, Titans are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible
+ Epic Hero +
Trajann Valoris [160pts]
+ Character +
Blade Champion [145pts]: Veiled Blade
Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour [170pts]: Ceaseless Hunter, Guardian Spear
plastic melta spear is finally real... but only for the captain, it seems. not really sure what meaningful impact that's going to have on the army, since it's just one, and meltas are already the same strength as axes
Is it just me, or does the new release feel less like a new release and more like a gear option for a regular captin? I would be suprised, if a lot of custodes players didn't just , assuming the rules are good, just take a warden leader slap a melta on the guardian spear and give him a custodes guardian shield and have the character without the need to buy a gigantic box.
my assumption is that because he has the shield, this shield captain is going to have his own distinct datasheet from the normal one (like the new necron overlord)... but yeah even at that point, all it would take is cutting up a melta barrel to make my own
i'm not too annoyed with this, tho. aside from the issues with forgeworld, the army is in a fine place, so i'm not shocked GW didn't give us more this time
Up until now any Custode was limited to: 1. Spear/ax or 2. Sword and shield. (I'm still a little salty they removed the option of Sword and knife from Custodian Guard. It made for a slightly cheaper unit with more attacks)
Will this new model reverse that trend so that spear/shield is a thing in general? If so, would we take it?
As for further wishlisting, I'd love a Custodes accessory sprue like the Space Marines have for their chapters. Parts for blinging out our leaders to tell them apart from our normies.
The sculpt alone makes it look like a stand out model. The fact that GW called it a Shield Captain, means it's not a squad type unit.
I honestly can't figure out why someone would want to take an axe, with a melta, and a shield. That's slightly over board on a single unit, yeah? I mean the spear makes it a generalist.
At this point all I can hope for is they give it the Blade Champion's attack profiles, where it gets a sweep or a cleave type deal. 1 Melta shot is not going to achieve anything, even with a shield, in most games.
I doubt guard with spears will be an option. most spear options take both hands, with only one (maybe two) having a spear carried in one hand, thus allowing for also carrying a shield. but, fittingly, the shield captain option is one of the kits with that option
The book is awful, can’t just fix some of it with points.
Been debating of asking for a refund on my stuff, because I am just the most unlucky person and thought I would go in on a big project I been looking at for years.
Apple fox wrote: The book is awful, can’t just fix some of it with points.
Been debating of asking for a refund on my stuff, because I am just the most unlucky person and thought I would go in on a big project I been looking at for years.
That's why I never buy anything til I read the Goonhammer review- though when it's a box full of models, I'll sometimes bend; I bought the Tau box without waiting for the review, but in that case I knew whether the dex sucked or not the models were worth what I paid for the box.
Edit: I like the Null Maiden detachment, and I'll wait til Tuesday to read the Crusade rules to see if there is more SoS content for Crusade than there was in 9th.
Yeah I was very dismayed when I read Goonhammer's review of the new book. I don't think the faction is dead but I also don't see them winning events like, ever, unless they get some buffs. I'm also sad to see the jetbikes still suck, barring an unexpected points drop in the next balance dataslate. At least the axes on Wardens/Allarus are less garbage than before, eh?
The army dropped to one of the worse in the game, when all it lost was just the Devastating wound protection. It still had the unchanged heroes with all the old rules, old katas, old stratagems. And it dropped hard. Now it lost the protection, the characters got nerfed, the core army rules got nerfed, and point costs wise no army since the start of 10th ended cheaper, then it was in the index. But who knows maybe custodes will be different.
I played a slow elite melee army, with no range options, in both 8th and 9th. They do not work in general. And they don't work double, if they don't have a ton of extra rules to give them some sort of an edge. The whole talk about "playing smart" and using terrain stops being an argument, when your opponent knows that A you are going to be using terrain B there exists 3" away deep strike C they also play smart.
Custodes under the rules in the new codex are the army to play vs someone who bought a terminator DW army and wants to slug it off in the middle of the board ignoring objectives etc.
Lord Clinto wrote: My biggest gripe about the codex is that the Ven Contemptor Dread still only has the two weapons loadouts.
The only Contemptor you can buy atm is the plastic HH model with ~15 different weapons...wtfGW!!!!!!
I second this. It's like the game developers forgot the old kit is OOP and the new one exists. Now, I can understand not including EVERY weapon in the kit, like vulkite stuff, but would it have unbalanced Custodes to give the dreadnought a havok launcher on top?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I bet you 1000 imaginary dollars that we stay above 45% WR for the majority of 10th.
Can we at least let this shake out? This is me talking. Fezz (sky is falling) bullgryn. It's going to be fine.
That is a big gamble, because the last time the same army lost just the dev wounds defence it droped under 40% on certain weeks. Now it lost that and everything else. There are match ups where the custodes player would requier a 3ed party to set up terrain and put all of it in to their half of the table.
And it is not going to be fine. Ad Mecha were suppose to get fine. They didn't. DA played as an actual DA army and not a space marine with Azrael, does not work. If custodes were to get fixed, they would have to wait in line to be fixed.
Now, I can understand not including EVERY weapon in the kit, like vulkite stuff, but would it have unbalanced Custodes to give the dreadnought a havok launcher on top?
One of GW design goals is for models to not be double dipping or double dipping as little as it is possible. That is why Contemptors, and all the other relic tanks, only exist in lore, but not in game terms. Want a Siccarian? You have to play HH. And sometimes it is funny, because lets say assasins don't exist everywhere. On top of that because of the straind relations between FW and GW design team, both seem to ignore what the other side is doing.
Also why vulkite be so odd of an option. Marines get vulkite pistols etc. If anything armies like custodes, or GK, should have access to the crazy gear not even inquisition has access to. Tassaract vault boxes, rare grenades, scaners, teleport and anti teleport devices etc. Meanwhile SoS can't remember how to use two bolt pistols. And custodes had to achive the rank of captin to be able to use a spear and a shield.
One of GW design goals is for models to not be double dipping or double dipping as little as it is possible. That is why Contemptors, and all the other relic tanks, only exist in lore, but not in game terms. Want a Siccarian? You have to play HH. And sometimes it is funny, because lets say assasins don't exist everywhere. On top of that because of the straind relations between FW and GW design team, both seem to ignore what the other side is doing.
Also why vulkite be so odd of an option. Marines get vulkite pistols etc. If anything armies like custodes, or GK, should have access to the crazy gear not even inquisition has access to. Tassaract vault boxes, rare grenades, scaners, teleport and anti teleport devices etc. Meanwhile SoS can't remember how to use two bolt pistols. And custodes had to achive the rank of captin to be able to use a spear and a shield.
The only problem with this argument is that IK and Custodes were both specifically granted use of their HH models by GW. And...Custodes still have the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought Dataslate in their Index/Codex, where as the Space Marine versions were relegated to legacy status.
yeah. And it is the custodes the contemptor model that they don't even sell anymore. I mean multiple armies have access to FW stuff. It is less then it was in the past, especialy with every new codex and some faction, do get preferential treatment. But the FW options custodes get are practicaly unplayable. The jetbikes and the terminators not only cost more then the codex versions, but they also have worse rules. The Custodes Contemptors, Telamons are so bad, that no one uses them. There is also the flyer, which costs like a month plus of my salary. No one uses that thing. Saggitarians, used in 9th (just like the dreads) dead option in 10th. Which kind of a boils down the FW options to the jump dudes (which only work because of free rapid ingress, and even then most armies can't fit them in) and the calladius (or more specific 2, because running one is too swingy). The last two options are at playable, they general are, or rather were, not played in good armies. So yeach technicly Custodes, have a FW model line, but when one compares to how many of those are actually used, it isn't really that much. And I assuming recasts, because the cost of 2 calladius or 6-9 jump boys is brutal.
If custodes could/want to take a contemptor they wouldn't take one with a short range nerfed MM or AC on a 6"M platform. They would want a grav weapon or a twin lascanon. Or the option to double up the weapons.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I bet you 1000 imaginary dollars that we stay above 45% WR for the majority of 10th.
Can we at least let this shake out? This is me talking. Fezz (sky is falling) bullgryn. It's going to be fine.
That is a big gamble, because the last time the same army lost just the dev wounds defence it droped under 40% on certain weeks. Now it lost that and everything else. There are match ups where the custodes player would requier a 3ed party to set up terrain and put all of it in to their half of the table.
And it is not going to be fine. Ad Mecha were suppose to get fine. They didn't. DA played as an actual DA army and not a space marine with Azrael, does not work. If custodes were to get fixed, they would have to wait in line to be fixed.
Now, I can understand not including EVERY weapon in the kit, like vulkite stuff, but would it have unbalanced Custodes to give the dreadnought a havok launcher on top?
One of GW design goals is for models to not be double dipping or double dipping as little as it is possible. That is why Contemptors, and all the other relic tanks, only exist in lore, but not in game terms. Want a Siccarian? You have to play HH.
We had this talk before. And again I will point out at the fact that legends are in fact NOT accepted to be played in large areas of the world. This isn't a "my toxic meta" thing, this is not even a Poland or eastern euro thing, it is a world wide thing. Now, you have the ability to play with legends. Great for you, but enough of you, I would say the most of us, do not have that option. But this the whole the same "is matched played" argument over again. I had this enough of times to know how it goes.
Outside of tournaments, or at least games where you have specifically agreed to use tournament rules? Yes, you do have the right to use your Legends models.
And if your opponent backs out of the game because you're using a model GW says you can, with the rules they say, in a format they say you can - i.e., any game outside of a tournament - you know which donkey-caves to avoid playing casually in the future.
And yet it is somehow a world wide thing. Even GW itself does everything to stop people/not know about legends, as they don't put the rules in their books, on their app and you litteraly have to know that the legends rules exist to try to find them on their site.
Again if you have the luck to play with legends, then you are probably one of those people who 2-3 editions ago could ignore the rule of 3, invent rules on the go etc But again this isn't the norm.
That's my point. It's a silly argument for this faction. It's like saying you're upset because Orks have no Inquisition Support.
Custodes are perfectly mediocre right now. There is really nothing that makes us SUPER powerful, and nothing that makes us horrible. Which is a great place to be. We could be where Guard was for all of 9th, or Votann.
Point being, it could be a LOT worse. Remember when GW got silly and made Trajann over 200pts? Member when they limited our captains to a single type per list, so you couldn't take multiple of a Jetbike captain?
Be happy we aren't literal garbage right now, because that's where the really angry fans wanted us.
I shouldn't say us. I haven't played Custodes in over two editions. I just bought an Eldar box set and am trying my best to make time to learn them now. Running up and punching things as hard as possible IS NOT WORKING.....
