It’s an unfortunate truth that the world keeps getting more expensive. Prices for food, materials, and transportation have been trending upward for a few years now, and Warhammer isn’t immune to that trend.
This means that from the 10th June we’ll be increasing some prices in our Warhammer stores and on Warhammer.com.
The price changes for individual products will vary, but in most countries the average change will be between 3% and 5%.* As an example of what you can expect, a squad of Necron Warriors goes up $2 from $50 to $52, £30 to £31.50, and €40 to €41 (or local currency equivalent).
The prices of some of our products aren’t changing, such as paint pots and paint sets, White Dwarf, and Black Library products (including digital publications).
We understand that no one likes a price rise and we’ve done our best to keep prices down. We’re giving you a heads-up now so that you have plenty of time to take advantage of current prices.
* In Sweden and Norway, the average price change will be between 8% and 14%.
I'm not going to go off on a tirade about how unjust this is, ther rules are terrible and thus the product is, or how we should boycott.
I do find this price rise in particular unpalatable though. I get that a PLC such as GW must keep the shareholders happy, but, yeah.... It isn't a lot, but the principle of it in the current climate, especially in the UK.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
Maybe, but historically they raise their prices much faster than the rate of inflation.
And don't get us started on the "because we can" surcharges they subject certain regions, especially AUS/NZ.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Maybe, but historically they raise their prices much faster than the rate of inflation.
Perhaps they do, but they haven't here.
This is pretty bang on an inflationary rise, maybe even slightly below. Businesses are still suffering energy costs going up by at least that if not more in the UK, fuel is increasing at that rate, staff costs are increasing at that rate, raw materials are increasing at more than that rate.
Pathetic. Among games I play only GW products have annual increase. Fortunately I only play ME:SBG and I am plenty of miniatures.
And after discovering Kings of War and Firefight I am more than happy with Mantic games, better ruleset, cheaper miniatures, better communities.
lol, I don't know if a team economic PhDs are needed to examine GW's prices. They're really high, they're getting really higher. Most products don't have a yearly price hike to match inflation because it doesn't really work that way. XD
But as long as we're on the topic, I do wonder how this will work if we go from economic boomtime to recession and high unemployment. If your luxury item prices are still relatively high when a lot of people have a lot of pocket money, what are they when people have significantly less? Or when nerdy hobbies have a downturn in popularity and it becomes cool to play football and drive fast cars?
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
Don't just sweep this under the rug cause you can get a discount elsewhere. 3-5% increase every year for the last 3+ years is pretty much negating this discount.
* In Sweden and Norway, the average price change will be between 8% and 14%.
What did the Swedes and Nords(?) do to deserves such a paddling?
The Swedish currency is at a 20-year low or something, probably that. I shouldn't complain too much because prices in Sweden is like 40% below Australia but I will complain a little bit.
GW stuff is mostly way beyond my tolerance at this point. 62.50 for 3 crisis suits when I checked the other day. They were overpriced at 50 quid for 3!
The longer you go without paying their prices, the more ridiculous they seem when you come back to them.
I just can't bring myself to spend that much on toys.
Oh man, and here I thought we escaped the annual price increases. Guess time to see what I actually need on my want list vs what I can live without easily enough. Last year I saved the chart and allowed myself to buy the stuff that didn't get jacked up and the occasional discount box. I suppose its time to rethink things.
Well their business model pending towards more and more physical venues will be particularly exposed to economy. I mean the operating costs are probably ridiculously high.
Im totally immune to prices rises since I don't buy anything non essential that goes above a particular certain amount. Do your own budget and stick to it no matter what.
* In Sweden and Norway, the average price change will be between 8% and 14%.
What did the Swedes and Nords(?) do to deserves such a paddling?
The Swedish currency is at a 20-year low or something, probably that. I shouldn't complain too much because prices in Sweden is like 40% below Australia but I will complain a little bit.
Our currency is currently in the Monopoly money stage.
There was once a time were us Swedes traveld to Denmark for cheap stuff and cheated candy machines with Polish Zloty for super cheap candy.
Now the Danish and Poles come to sweden for shopping. How the tables have turned....
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
I mean... yes, but you realize that a price increase will also affect the discounted prices, yeah?
frankelee wrote: lol, I don't know if a team economic PhDs are needed to examine GW's prices. They're really high, they're getting really higher. Most products don't have a yearly price hike to match inflation because it doesn't really work that way. XD
I mean yes it does. RPI is literally a measure of the price increase of most consumer products over the past year. That's literally what inflation is.
But as long as we're on the topic, I do wonder how this will work if we go from economic boomtime to recession and high unemployment. If your luxury item prices are still relatively high when a lot of people have a lot of pocket money, what are they when people have significantly less? Or when nerdy hobbies have a downturn in popularity and it becomes cool to play football and drive fast cars?
Generally speaking during recessions spending on recreation to be done at home goes up, not down, as people don't go out drinking as much and want something to do. Pay TV subscriptions, sales of home gym equipment etc go up during recessions, not down.
You know, Kromlech just lowered their prices on 1200 items... Admittedly more often than not it's just 1-2€ but still, it's the same margin GW is upping their prices... Wonder if Grotz yet again will receive the highest increase after they went from 14€ to 20€ or some such last time..
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
Funny you mention that... should we take that into account all the previous years where that wasn't the case, and they raised prices above inflation?
Well they need to increase profit, and they can't increase sales because production already can't keep up with demand, so raising prices is the only out, really. Until they increase capacity we honestly should expect it every fiscal unit, half a year for GW I think?
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they need to increase profit, and they can't increase sales because production already can't keep up with demand, so raising prices is the only out, really. Until they increase capacity we honestly should expect it every fiscal unit, half a year for GW I think
Generally speaking during recessions spending on recreation to be done at home goes up, not down, as people don't go out drinking as much and want something to do. Pay TV subscriptions, sales of home gym equipment etc go up during recessions, not down.
I think the point was GW is moving towards high end spenders and further away from tv subscriptions or dumbbell prices...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
There's no rule that says you have to raise your prices at least in line with inflation, it's just a helpful excuse. If anything, raising prices simply because you can is what causes inflation to get out of control.
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
Don't just sweep this under the rug cause you can get a discount elsewhere. 3-5% increase every year for the last 3+ years is pretty much negating this discount.
So what's the alternative? Complain about it on a forum?
I've been through countless price rises in my decades in the hobby. Complaining doesn't work, threatening to boycott doesn't work, writing letters doesn't work, burning your armies doesn't work. nothing works. GW will always raise prices.
You know what works? Finding coping strategies works. Using discounts works. Using non-GW minis works. 3D printing works. Buying second hand works.
I've raged at previous price rises (several of them) and it benefits nobody except those who enjoy being angry, so this time I'm just not buying stuff from GW wherever possible.
Albertorius wrote:
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
I mean... yes, but you realize that a price increase will also affect the discounted prices, yeah?
Well gee, I'm no expert but d'ya think that might have been why I said "the rise will be negligible", rather than "there will be no rise at all"?
I've been through countless price rises in my decades in the hobby. Complaining doesn't work, threatening to boycott doesn't work, writing letters doesn't work, burning your armies doesn't work. nothing works. GW will always raise prices.
You know what works? Finding coping strategies works. Using discounts works. Using non-GW minis works. 3D printing works. Buying second hand works.
I've raged at previous price rises (several of them) and it benefits nobody except those who enjoy being angry, so this time I'm just not buying stuff from GW wherever possible.
I would suggest don't stress out and try not to think too much about it and carry on doing what you love doing. Buy the minis you like, just in less quantity.
I think sometimes we all get stuck with these marketing shenanigans.
Obviously a price increase anouncement will make people scared and panic buy more than they planned that month... don't fall for that.
Someone said here that if you ignore all of the GW train, for a long time, if you get back into it you realise how silly pricing got. It's really out of touch if you want to do a new army per year... but in reality who, specially vets, needs 1 new full army per year?
That is what works for me, ignore them, dont change your budget, buy what you want/can. Stress free dude.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
There's no rule that says you have to raise your prices at least in line with inflation, it's just a helpful excuse. If anything, raising prices simply because you can is what causes inflation to get out of control.
Duty to shareholders to maximise profits.
Also, why should any company existing in a capitalist system feel obliged to absorb any and all cost of production increases? As I said earlier, GW shouldn’t be separated from the wider financial background.
Finally on this wibble? Food for thought. GW are the sole producer and provider of their wares. Those wares are the world’s most popular tabletop wargames. But GW are not solely responsible for the sale of those goods. Indeed, Page 16 of the latest financial report clearly demonstrates a majority of their sales are through third party channels.
Now, those channels themselves aren’t immune to inflation and increasing costs. Something I don’t think we really stop to consider is what would happen if GW did decide to freeze its prices for a period? Even if the wholesale price was kept frozen, that doesn’t render FLGS and the like immune from the rest of Market Forces. Fluctuations in tax rate, rental, electricity, insurance, staff wages etc.
If that shop can’t maintain its income with inflation, because nobody in their right mind is going to buy at greater than RRP? Where do they go then? Even discounters exist in a competitive market. I buy from one of two FLGS because my mate owns it, and you gotta support your mates. He does offer a discount, but not as deep as online places. And the online places can’t easily reduce their discount, because customers can be lost to competitors who maintained their discount
As ever not a “so STFU”. Just a general post to point out the benefit of increased prices is not GW’s alone.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
There's no rule that says you have to raise your prices at least in line with inflation, it's just a helpful excuse. If anything, raising prices simply because you can is what causes inflation to get out of control.
Duty to shareholders to maximise profits.
Also, why should any company existing in a capitalist system feel obliged to absorb any and all cost of production increases? As I said earlier, GW shouldn’t be separated from the wider financial background.
Dude with all due respect... there has been huge divergences between companies about the interpretation of capitalism/maximise profits etc Some "get it" better than others but they are all different. I dont think the concepts your are putting on the table here are so black and white as you seem to think.
Many companies have absorbed inflation, many do the "right thing" for the client due to social awareness etc and before you say those are not competitive companies I know one, very well, and its on top 100 so yeah... lets leave those bold claims what capitalism is... out.
Remember folks, they've done everything they could to keep prices down on their pennies on the sprue products. They, um, like, looked in the couch cushions and everything but even with that effort the margins aren't there so they have to increase costs further. Pay no attention to smaller outfits that can make a decent profit on plastic kits at much lower prices that have less bargaining power yet still have to pay even more for shipping and materials... Costs for manufacturers absolutely have gone up but the gouge has always been present in GW costs since the early 90s and will continue to be.
My point is Price Rises Suck. But because GW doesn’t exist in a vacuum, we can’t reasonably expect them to just absorb any and all increased running costs. And to attempt to illustrate “they’ve raised prices, which means their profits just go up as a result”.
Lots of moving parts, all whirling away at the same time, and no one company can control or influence them all, let alone all at the same time.
My point is Price Rises Suck. But because GW doesn’t exist in a vacuum, we can’t reasonably expect them to just absorb any and all increased running costs. And to attempt to illustrate “they’ve raised prices, which means their profits just go up as a result”.
Lots of moving parts, all whirling away at the same time, and no one company can control or influence them all, let alone all at the same time.
GW raised always above inflation and then when inflation was just about to catch up they raised the prices again.
My point is Price Rises Suck. But because GW doesn’t exist in a vacuum, we can’t reasonably expect them to just absorb any and all increased running costs.
I think your ideas of Capitalism and whats expected of a company under this reality is too much based on just the hardcore capitalists tinted reports... almost forgets that no, not all companies should do this just because they exist.
Cynical in us may say that different companies may have a longer therm goals rather than this immediate cash in, but who's to say?
GW can do what they want, specially when they have such monopolistic footprint.
The point is that GW raises prices regularly at higher than average rates REGARDLESS of whether inflation, taxes, logistics, or material costs go up/down/stay the same.
warboss wrote: The point is that GW raises prices regularly at higher than average rates REGARDLESS of whether inflation, taxes, logistics, or material costs go up/down/stay the same.
In recent years, price increases haven’t been universal. Certain kits, paint pots and that, yes. But not across the board. Inflation rates are also only an indicator.
Unique to the UK?
The London Economic wrote:In 2022, the sharp rise in energy prices and accompanying inflation dominated headlines and caused significant problems for businesses. [2] On average, businesses experienced a 63% increase in electricity prices and a 124% increase in gas prices between Q3 2021 and Q3 2022.
So many times higher than the overall 10.10% rate of inflation, yes? And not something it’s terribly easy for a manufacturer to economise on. And that’s just one of the moving cogs in one of the countries GW operates in.
Last year, the UK minimum wage increased by more than 10%, and increased again this year. Now that’s not to say “therefore all wages did the same”. I got a 6.5% pay rise if memory serves. We don’t know how much a GW factory worker earns, but that’s still another cog in the grand scheme of things.
Hence my issues with “GW am just the greddy” arguments. When it’s categorically not the sole cause, and far from unique to GW.
The Mouldmaker wrote:Sorry to be the barer of bad news but… It price rise time. Metal alloy, shot up by… 33% to me over three months. So as a result the price of cast 40:60 alloy per kilo will rise to £48. And… as the last time I put thd moulding prices up was 2016, master moulds will rise to £130 each, and Production to £95 (both 9” moulds)
Models aside, they've already lost me as a customer for their games. Scrapping my Stormcast army and announcing a price hike isn't exactly enticing me back...
Oh, they're really a models company? Better change their name then...
I used to be bothered by their constant price hikes.
Now, I'm pleased to see them. We know they are locked into the minimum of 9 total releases for the old world, and they will already have shipments from china on the way for much of the printed material for things like boxes and books for the returning plastics and arcane journals for the next 6 of them.
But the quicker they rise the prices and price people out, the quicker they can 'End Times' the setting again. I for one can't wait for another year like 2015-16 again. Where we saw people dumping huge amounts of WFB product for next to nothing on ebay and in 2nd hand stores. When people were dumping their entire collections after feeling betrayed by a company. I honestly can't wait to pick up some real bargains after seeing that happen a second time around.
NAVARRO wrote: Mouldmaker did no increase the prices since 2016? and its a family type of company?... So I don't see how that comparison helped defending your point?
It popped up on my FB feed, so I decided to share it as a data point. Another data point is that Warlord Games had a bigger price rise last month (and that thread got five comments):
Warlord Games wrote:Important! Upcoming Price Rise
The costs of manufacturing and materials have increased globally over the last couple of years. We have held off on such costs affecting our pricing for as long as possible, but unfortunately it's something we can no longer avoid.
As of 2nd April 2024, a price rise averaging 6%, will be rolled out across all Warlord Games products. Books and third party items will not be affected.
But neither of those companies have had yearly price increases like GW.
Yeah GW seem to be doing great, no argument from me. Making stuff people want and selling all of what they have. A lot of it is really cool stuff too.
Just too pricey for me. I have the luxury of a large collection and plenty of stuff to work on, so I'm not their target customer. But I still get sticker shock when I browse their section in my local shop. And then trundle down to the North Star/Wargames Atlantic/Misc other Sci Fi and Fantasy plastics section and across to Historicals.
The great thing is we've a tremendous wealth of options for 28mm miniatures these days, so if you're more price conscious you can still have a really satisfying hobby if you're not brand-loyal.
No one wants to spend more money, and it’s not GW that drive the market issues all alone.
But I tend to think, I should be able to play with these minis another 30 years if all goes well.
But I do think GW prices are difficult, I been trying to sus out a sisters of silence army and my gods it’s expensive no matter what path taken it feels like.
You can tell people the truth, but they're too busy being big brained to hear it. GW's prices are either too high for a person or they're not. They raise them because they think they can make more money if they do. Inflation and whatever other pretend-PhD-economic-issues forum posters want to bring into it, really don't matter that much.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
Funny you mention that... should we take that into account all the previous years where that wasn't the case, and they raised prices above inflation?
Absolutely! Either a justification is valid or it isn't; the answer shouldn't depend on whether it supports a predetermined position.
NAVARRO wrote: Mouldmaker did no increase the prices since 2016? and its a family type of company?... So I don't see how that comparison helped defending your point?
It popped up on my FB feed, so I decided to share it as a data point. Another data point is that Warlord Games had a bigger price rise last month (and that thread got five comments):
Warlord Games wrote:Important! Upcoming Price Rise
The costs of manufacturing and materials have increased globally over the last couple of years. We have held off on such costs affecting our pricing for as long as possible, but unfortunately it's something we can no longer avoid.
As of 2nd April 2024, a price rise averaging 6%, will be rolled out across all Warlord Games products. Books and third party items will not be affected.
But neither of those companies have had yearly price increases like GW.
Yeah I agree, theres plenty of examples of companies being more sensible regarding price rises... on the other side of this theres companies like GW that, lets not forget, also do things like... less models per box, more books, fast turnaround of editions if you want to play etc etc... all during the same year and on top of the "official yearly" rise.
It's OK, and we know this is happening for many years, just let not pretend that GW is a victim of capitalism and everyone does this. They do it because its their choice to do so.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm not going to go off on a tirade about how unjust this is, ther rules are terrible and thus the product is, or how we should boycott.
I do find this price rise in particular unpalatable though. I get that a PLC such as GW must keep the shareholders happy, but, yeah.... It isn't a lot, but the principle of it in the current climate, especially in the UK.
I wanted to be kept happy. Checked Robinhood, no GamesWorkshop stocks for sale...
I agree, time to save up for a 3D printer.
Shock as large commercial company seeks to continue to make as much money as possible.
GW is no longer a small niche company looking to tempt little Timmy in with the pocket or birthday money that mum and dad gave them. GW is aiming pretty much entirely at 25 yo + with stable jobs and disposable income, capture their buying power and then start moving into franchising their IP.
If you really object to GW making money then swap to anther company or game. There are much better companies and games out there than GW. But I will let you in on a secret, those companies also want to make money and will raise their prices over time.
Ah, FW Legion exclusive terminators will still be below 100 euros for 5 miniatures. But maybe they won't bother and just go for more than 5%. As FW did way before, by just increasing their prices by flat 10%.
Sunno wrote: Shock as large commercial company seeks to continue to make as much money as possible.
GW is no longer a small niche company looking to tempt little Timmy in with the pocket or birthday money that mum and dad gave them. GW is aiming pretty much entirely at 25 yo + with stable jobs and disposable income, capture their buying power and then start moving into franchising their IP.
If you really object to GW making money then swap to anther company or game. There are much better companies and games out there than GW. But I will let you in on a secret, those companies also want to make money and will raise their prices over time.
Price lists are already floating around, lots of items (mostly Old World) in the 8-10 % range. So yeah, the 3-5% are again (like last time) an average over the whole sortiment.
Hanskrampf wrote: Price lists are already floating around, lots of items (mostly Old World) in the 8-10 % range. So yeah, the 3-5% are again (like last time) an average over the whole sortiment.
GW has long priced me out of their Games. I still use their Paints, but even this has become diluted as I switch to other brands like Foundry and MSP. As some have already commented, it's only when you break away from GW for a few years, do you come back and have that moment and look at their prices.
I did buy into Titanicus when that was released, I'd like an second Army but I can't bring myself to pay the prices now when there are so many equal or better games systems out there which are priced better. I've gone into Warlord Games, buying x2 Bolt Action armies, Cruel Seas, Black Seas and recently Epic Waterloo. 10yrs ago I would have spent all this on GW. If you just look at a basic Sprue, Warlord will sell one with the Sprue Sales at £5 each, GW it's now more like £20 for a single plastic sprue. Both are of a similar quality.
The Legion Imperialis has gone down well at my local Club with around 8 players. 1 person has bought a rule book, everyone else has 'found' a pdf. 2 of us are using our old Epic Armageddon armies, 6 clubbed in and bought a Printer, they've all Printed their own armies. Put them next to a GW army, you wouldn't know the difference. This is the issue GW need to combat and be aware of. The Pricing on the Legion stuff is obscene. So obscene it makes no sense to buy one, when for a fraction you can buy a Printer and print your own. This option is going to become more and more as GW raise their prices, and cost and availability of printers is better.
Someone also raised their product always go out of stock so they are selling well. Or, they are not producing as much now, so people get that fear of missing out, and they sell out. Keeps warehousing costs down, also generates greater financial predictability.
After the previous price increase I told myself I'd curtail spending with GW and I was mostly successful. Aside from the TOW and HH campaign books, I've spend very little on actual GW product, but now I think I'm just done.
My distaste for GW as a company far outweighs my remaining interest in the Warhammer universes.
So, some of the highest increases both percentually and in absolute numbers on the Old World sets. GW sure tries to hit all the nostalgia boxes in this project. Welcome back dedicated WHFB fans, welcome back indeed...
If I think something represents good value, I will buy it from GW. Some of the Combat Patrols, when sold with additional discount, are in that zone if I want everything that's in the box. Same with some of the christmas boxes from time to time (though the FOMO nature of them is offputting).
But buying regular boxes from them is a thing of the past for me, and buying books or single characters has not been part of my hobby for at least ten years. The prices on characters are totally crazy.
It's fine though, it's been a great thing to realise there are all these other manufacturers making cool stuff at reasonable prices and sort of branch out.
But yeah, I'm not "done" with GW, I pay attention to their releases and if something is worth the price to me, I pick it up every now and then. Definitely different to 15 years ago when I was pretty much a GW and Privateer Press player and that was it.
Hanskrampf wrote: Prices old and new in Euros, it's just the stuff above 5%
Spoiler:
Thanks for sharing!
Pretty big on those new TOW prices. I think GW got some good will for the more reasonably priced kits there recently. Apparently they want to flush that down the toilet already. Not a good sign for future TOW releases and the games health in general, not a good sign at all.
Also: do Combat Patrols and Spearheads "only" get increases below 5%, or are they not on the list at all?
Well, writing about average is the same as giving no number at all
It is not about understanding but this can mean the prices increase from 2-6% or 1-100%.
Hence while stores give the total numbers and various FLGS reported an increase from 2-14% depending on the items, and not "on average it is below inflation"
kodos wrote: Well, writing about average is the same as giving no number at all
It is not about understanding but this can mean the prices increase from 2-6% or 1-100%.
Hence while stores give the total numbers and various FLGS reported an increase from 2-14% depending on the items, and not "on average it is below inflation"
Not really, it's an indication of the amount extra the hobby will cost over various ranges. Some impacted more than others.
You are correct of course that they could put up a dozen items 500% and leave the rest and get to 3% average, but they still haven't been misleading even if you don't like the language.
The price changes for individual products will vary, but in most countries the average change will be between 3% and 5%.
They openly tell you some products will be more, some will be less, it'll vary from country to country but the average is 3%-5%.
The level of shady GW can perform is only matched by the lack of reading comprehension and critical thought by some.
I dunno. Maybe they used the median. And if paints are going up between 3-5% and everything box set or books by far more, the average will still be 3-5% as the paints list is probably far longer. I'd been thinking more and more about re-starting TOW. But seeing the prices go up by 10% for some ancient models... I'm not bothering.
the amount of extra for "the hobby" is not indicated by an average over all GW ranges
except your "hobby" is buying everything GW releases
the average increase tells you nothing about how much more it will cost to play TOW, 40k, AoS, MESBG, Necromunda, BloodBowl, or Warcry
we can argue if this is shady or "normal" but giving an average increase is pointless
Would be similar of Asmodee releases an average increase of 1% on all items, where Star Wars Legion goes up 200% while the boardgames decrease in price to balance that out, so your average "hobby" spending is 1% more
People would rage about that as being shady and not telling the truth hence no other company is doing it that way
Would be similar of Asmodee releases an average increase of 1% on all items, where Star Wars Legion goes up 200% while the boardgames decrease in price to balance that out, so your average "hobby" spending is 1% more
People would rage about that as being shady and not telling the truth hence no other company is doing it that way
Isn't this literally how inflation is "calculated"? Oops food went up 100% in 3 years, better slash the price of Rolls Royce and 30m yachts so we can say inflation was 3%
Would be similar of Asmodee releases an average increase of 1% on all items, where Star Wars Legion goes up 200% while the boardgames decrease in price to balance that out, so your average "hobby" spending is 1% more
People would rage about that as being shady and not telling the truth hence no other company is doing it that way
Isn't this literally how inflation is "calculated"? Oops food went up 100% in 3 years, better slash the price of Rolls Royce and 30m yachts so we can say inflation was 3%
yes and no, inflation takes some specific items and calculate the mean so there are different numbers depending on the items used and not all countries use all numbers
also they "trick" a little by adjusting for technology, like of something is 10% better than last years item but 5% more expensive it gets a negative value, which was a reason for the inflation peak during the GPU price increase because that correction mechanic reversed
hence why unions often use a different inflation (based on everyday items) than companies (who include said yachts)
Slightly frustrating that they stated in the article this wouldn't affect paints but that doesn't seem to apply to spray cans.
I am moving over to Colour Forge for most of my spray cans but will need to stock up on a couple of Citadel ones before June as the GW cans are already expensive but I am half way through a couple of projects.
This is more that the article was (slightly) misleading than the rise itself.
The Legion Imperialis has gone down well at my local Club with around 8 players. 1 person has bought a rule book, everyone else has 'found' a pdf. 2 of us are using our old Epic Armageddon armies, 6 clubbed in and bought a Printer, they've all Printed their own armies. Put them next to a GW army, you wouldn't know the difference. This is the issue GW need to combat and be aware of. The Pricing on the Legion stuff is obscene. So obscene it makes no sense to buy one, when for a fraction you can buy a Printer and print your own. This option is going to become more and more as GW raise their prices, and cost and availability of printers is better.
Honestly I find this an odd way of doing things because the plastic kits are by far the strongest part of the official Epic relaunch. Personally I'm doing it the other way around; getting some of the modern kits (except drop pods) and 'finding' copies of the supplements.
If I was taking your approach I would just be playing Net Epic or E:A instead, as those rules have had far more community attention to maintain them while LI could really use a proper FAQ.
kodos wrote: the amount of extra for "the hobby" is not indicated by an average over all GW ranges
except your "hobby" is buying everything GW releases
the average increase tells you nothing about how much more it will cost to play TOW, 40k, AoS, MESBG, Necromunda, BloodBowl, or Warcry
we can argue if this is shady or "normal" but giving an average increase is pointless
Would be similar of Asmodee releases an average increase of 1% on all items, where Star Wars Legion goes up 200% while the boardgames decrease in price to balance that out, so your average "hobby" spending is 1% more
People would rage about that as being shady and not telling the truth hence no other company is doing it that way
Well excuse me for assuming that in a thread about GW pricing it was relevant to people buying GW products.
It tells me on average it'll be 3-5% more expensive to purchase, not play, TOW, 40k, AoS, MESBG, Necromunda, BloodBowl, or Warcry.
Well, excuse me of assuming that in a topic about GW pricing that using a number that is meaningless for the average GW customer should be pointed out and corrected and numbers that give more information should be used
But yeah, good to know for people who buying the synthetic layer brush that is 10% more that on average it is just 3-5%
it is basically the same when unions complain that the living prices increased by 100% but someone telling them that on average it is just 10%, people just need to buy a new car every year to level it out
saying prices increase from 0-14% depending on the item is much more informative and telling than an average of 3-5%
kodos wrote: Well, excuse me of assuming that in a topic about GW pricing that using a number that is meaningless for the average GW customer should be pointed out and corrected and numbers that give more information should be used
But yeah, good to know for people who buying the synthetic layer brush that is 10% more that on average it is just 3-5%
it is basically the same when unions complain that the living prices increased by 100% but someone telling them that on average it is just 10%, people just need to buy a new car every year to level it out
saying prices increase from 0-14% depending on the item is much more informative and telling than an average of 3-5%
14% isn't applicable to all countries, that's an outright lie and therefore of less use to me than an average. It also doesn't tell me if I should expect 14% to be the majority or not.
kodos wrote: neither is 2-5% average as this also does not tell you if you should expect 5% the be the majority
and how is 0-14% a lie?
Go back a page, the highest amount increasing in the EU is seemingly 11.5%, not 14. Average being 2-5% tells me the majority will be in 2-5%, anything that is between 2% and 5% increase is expected and not a surprise, you instead look for outliers as they should be the minority.
The price changes for individual products will vary, but in most countries the average change will be between 3% and 5%.
They openly tell you some products will be more, some will be less, it'll vary from country to country but the average is 3%-5%.
The level of shady GW can perform is only matched by the lack of reading comprehension and critical thought by some.
Just about everything, exactly because they decided to communicate it like that, because that's exactly how the law of averages work. Same reason it's used to calculate average wages.
Would be similar of Asmodee releases an average increase of 1% on all items, where Star Wars Legion goes up 200% while the boardgames decrease in price to balance that out, so your average "hobby" spending is 1% more
People would rage about that as being shady and not telling the truth hence no other company is doing it that way
Isn't this literally how inflation is "calculated"? Oops food went up 100% in 3 years, better slash the price of Rolls Royce and 30m yachts so we can say inflation was 3%
Yes, it's exactly the same, and it's exactly as scummy.
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Dudeface wrote: 14% isn't applicable to all countries, that's an outright lie and therefore of less use to me than an average. It also doesn't tell me if I should expect 14% to be the majority or not.
If that's an outright lie because it's not applicable in all countries, GW's initial statement is equally as much of a lie.
It tells me on average it'll be 3-5% more expensive to purchase, not play, TOW, 40k, AoS, MESBG, Necromunda, BloodBowl, or Warcry.
But this isn't true. From what folks have said, apparently it's more like 10% more expensive to purchase TOW. That's the problem. If they are going to throw out a number, if should be broadly representative. If it's not, they should give additional caveats, like what they did for the Nordics, or for paint being unaffected by the price increases.
In general, I understand the need to raise prices. But, as per usual, GW's communication is lacking.
The price changes for individual products will vary, but in most countries the average change will be between 3% and 5%.
They openly tell you some products will be more, some will be less, it'll vary from country to country but the average is 3%-5%.
The level of shady GW can perform is only matched by the lack of reading comprehension and critical thought by some.
Just about everything, exactly because they decided to communicate it like that, because that's exactly how the law of averages work. Same reason it's used to calculate average wages.
Yes, the law of averages is a blief lead statement where as the actual average is an objective quantifiable amount. Objectively it seems the mean average is 3-5%, which once you apply law of averages means you believe that some will be 0 and some will be higher.
Which, again, tell me how this contradicts GW in any way?
Dudeface wrote: 14% isn't applicable to all countries, that's an outright lie and therefore of less use to me than an average. It also doesn't tell me if I should expect 14% to be the majority or not.
If that's an outright lie because it's not applicable in all countries, GW's initial statement is equally as much of a lie.
This is tiring. They said it explicity is as high in some countries via exemption at the bottom. They also state:
but in most countries the average change will be between 3% and 5%.
Like I say, people struggling to apply common sense to a clear message to be angry about it.
It tells me on average it'll be 3-5% more expensive to purchase, not play, TOW, 40k, AoS, MESBG, Necromunda, BloodBowl, or Warcry.
But this isn't true. From what folks have said, apparently it's more like 10% more expensive to purchase TOW. That's the problem. If they are going to throw out a number, if should be broadly representative. If it's not, they should give additional caveats, like what they did for the Nordics, or for paint being unaffected by the price increases.
In general, I understand the need to raise prices. But, as per usual, GW's communication is lacking.
So you want an average per game system? Well what if one army is up by more than another skewing individual armies? So we then do it by army right? Or we just accept as stated on average their collective product ranges are up 3-5%.
Old world seems ro have a fair few over 5%, there's also plenty that aren't seemingly.
I really wish more press releases included the Mean along with the Average. It is so easy to "lie" with Averages when the Mean gives much better insight. To pull up an old joke:
49 people are in a bar when Bill Gates walks in. One guy turns to the next and says, "We are all rich. The average net worth in this bar is 1 Billion Dollars."
I was pretty happy with the prices when the greenskins came out, I won't say I was defending them as they are not cheap but I found them to be reasonable (for GW).
€50 for a box of goblin wolf riders didn't feel too bad, not since you get a lot a left overs, a good mix of parts to build a nice unit and with some clever modelling (ie get some Oyumaru) you just need to make some goblin chest pieces and a unit filler or two and you have enough bits for a unit of hill goblins as well. (same with the hill goblin units, make some more chest pieces, get some oathmark wolves and after making your foot units you can bulk out your wolf riders with all the left over bits and the spare rider legs)
But a 10-11% price rise on all the TOW stuff is steep. 11% on plastic chariots is insane. Its now cheaper to buy metal chariots than plastics. Only two orc chariots for almost €70. That's almost the cost of the whole battalion at my FLGS now.
I think it would have been less noticeable if most of these kits hadn't only just been released, many of which have only just arrived in the last week or two to most people.
A price rise isn't likely to push me out of collecting completely, but it will push me to not minding spending more on finishing off my dogs of war collection and not buying anything direct. I'm not really to bothered about supporting TOW directly, worst case they 'end times' it and people sell their collections of cheap again, best case we won't see a price drop but we see some better bundle deals if sales dip.
Dudeface wrote: So you want an average per game system? Well what if one army is up by more than another skewing individual armies? So we then do it by army right? Or we just accept as stated on average their collective product ranges are up 3-5%.
Old world seems ro have a fair few over 5%, there's also plenty that aren't seemingly.
If the price increase varies too much across the board to give a representative number, or even two or three numbers (maybe game systems, maybe regions), just don't give a number. IIRC there have been plenty of price increases where that's exactly what they've done.
Dudeface wrote: So you want an average per game system? Well what if one army is up by more than another skewing individual armies? So we then do it by army right? Or we just accept as stated on average their collective product ranges are up 3-5%.
Old world seems ro have a fair few over 5%, there's also plenty that aren't seemingly.
If the price increase varies too much across the board to give a representative number, or even two or three numbers (maybe game systems, maybe regions), just don't give a number. IIRC there have been plenty of price increases where that's exactly what they've done.
Which breeds more panic and angst in the customer base than the minority who can't grasp the concept of the average however.
Assuming that's the full list of items over 5% it's got to be what, less than a 20th of their total product line? If 95% is between 0 and 5% increases, how is it not representative?
I'm not going to be swayed on the concept. If people want to be angry because GW had the gall to give an indication of the level of prise rise a month in advance, feel free.
Since this announcement is not in the best interest of the clients and just another marketing scare tactic to squeeze even further, just keep the announcement with no figures. It's bad enough they come in with excuses....
GW is communicating fine. Lead with a commonly understood truth to ease readers into an accepting mindset, use an average to put up low percentiles so as not to scare anyone, double down by highlighting what it means for one of the cheapest kits to keep waving small numbers in the reader's face, follow it up with some silver lining and ask for understanding in the same breath. Seems pretty by the book to me. GW has had some sucky communication in the past, but I'm not seeing it here.
Yeah, some of the criticism I understand completely, especially TOW minis going up in price so soon after being (re-)released.
But the criticism regarding GW's communication on the matter, along with them giving us an average percent increase so that we know what to expect, seems borderline unhinged to me.
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
alextroy wrote: I really wish more press releases included the Mean along with the Average. It is so easy to "lie" with Averages when the Mean gives much better insight. To pull up an old joke:
49 people are in a bar when Bill Gates walks in. One guy turns to the next and says, "We are all rich. The average net worth in this bar is 1 Billion Dollars."
I was always understanding that when the term "average" was used, particularly in the UK, the 'mean' had been used. And as your example shows, an outlier can have a massive effect on the mean. Quite often, the median is a far better average to use.
As we know and expect from statisticians, whichever average shows what they want to show will be used.
alextroy wrote: I really wish more press releases included the Mean along with the Average. It is so easy to "lie" with Averages when the Mean gives much better insight. To pull up an old joke:
49 people are in a bar when Bill Gates walks in. One guy turns to the next and says, "We are all rich. The average net worth in this bar is 1 Billion Dollars."
I was always understanding that when the term "average" was used, particularly in the UK, the 'mean' had been used. And as your example shows, an outlier can have a massive effect on the mean. Quite often, the median is a far better average to use.
As we know and expect from statisticians, whichever average shows what they want to show will be used.
Assuming the sheet makes sense, the above shows that mean and median are inside 3-5% and modal might actually be below 3%.
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
Further edit, they're direct order only items.
I'm at work and can't view the sheet, so are these the trade prices then? Cause I'm confused by this post, from the prices we saw posted the other day.
The old world prices shown seem to be going up 10-11% and not 3-5%, so I'm assuming these are the trade prices and the sheet the other day is the RRP mark up which is what we are going to be actually seeing.
Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
- 1,085 items (not their whole range)
- 378 items between 3% & 5%
- 281 above 5% with a singular item at 10% as the highest (IG vehicle accessory sprue)
- 455 items below 3%
- Overall mean average of 3.16%
I included 2.94% increases as below 3% for reference, it was a hard cut off at 3.0 and 5.0. There are a whopping 7 items at that % though so doesn't shift the numbers much.
Lots of items are not on this sheet, I did a cursory search for various imperial knights and as far as I can see only the questoris and armigers are listed. Wardogs, cerastus and dominus are not listed at all from what I can see. This means the average % is assumingly lower than advertised from this sheet.
In conclusion, whilst the majority are not between 3% & 5% despite being the mean, this is because the steeper increases are being balanced out by lots of items with minimal to no changes. Most of the heavy hit items exist between 5-6.7% and are largely bigger kits or accessory items. A lot of the 0% are books of some variety, however as it's an incomplete list this is not a conclusive outcome.
Tl;DR - their earlier message was entirely correct.
Edit: these are not UK, I assumed UKR was UK retail, but Nobz are down as going from 35 - 37. They're £24 atm.
Further edit, they're direct order only items.
I'm at work and can't view the sheet, so are these the trade prices then? Cause I'm confused by this post, from the prices we saw posted the other day.
The old world prices shown seem to be going up 10-11% and not 3-5%, so I'm assuming these are the trade prices and the sheet the other day is the RRP mark up which is what we are going to be actually seeing.
Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
This sheet is direct order only UK items, so different currency and different item set, but no old world items are up 10%.
Mallo wrote: Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
there are ~275 items on the list with 0% increase (lot of those being books in different languages) and only a single item with 10% increase
the only TOW items on that list are the bases which are also 0% increase
Mallo wrote: Or are the old world 11% increase items not on this sheet and therefore keeping the average down?
there are ~275 items on the list with 0% increase (lot of those being books in different languages) and only a single item with 10% increase
the only TOW items on that list are the bases which are also 0% increase
That's not true unfortunately, if you search for orc & goblin tribes for example it will find a lot of old world units/models, same is true for khemri and so on.
Danny76 wrote: I wonder on the Combat Patrol prices. And the new similar AoS ones coming. They’d be £100 perhaps.
They are currently 125 euros
For something to "start collecting", which usually amount to something like this:
Spoiler:
"13 miniatures! (counting the beacon thingie)"
I wonder if GW doesn't realize that putting the number of miniatures you get for what they're asking has become off putting, because it showcases how bad of a deal these boxes usually are.
(Disclaimer: I have linked the first result on Google I for for Combat Patrol, I know many other boxes have more minis. But still)
Danny76 wrote: I wonder on the Combat Patrol prices.
And the new similar AoS ones coming.
They’d be £100 perhaps.
They are currently 125 euros
For something to "start collecting", which usually amount to something like this:
"13 miniatures! (counting the beacon thingie)"
I wonder if GW doesn't realize that putting the number of miniatures you get for what they're asking has become off putting, because it showcases how bad of a deal these boxes usually are.
(Disclaimer: I have linked the first result on Google I for for Combat Patrol, I know many other boxes have more minis. But still)
This always amused me about the "Start Collecting! Malignants" box I got a while back. It oh so proudly proclaims that it includes a mighty 9(!) miniatures, in rather a massive font too. Oh my! That's less than, well, many regular boxes do, let alone a bigger collection. Of course, 5 of those 9 were Hexwraiths, so cavalry instead of basic infantry. And another 3 were Spirit Hosts. And the 9th nothing less than a Mortis Engine. But the 9 really shouldn't be the focus there...
I maintain that GW's start collecting sets go through a marketing cycle. Starting out as "cheap to get started for newbies" and steadily climbing in price and content as they focus more and more on established customers. Because like it or not most starting sets are valued by those already in GW's market when starting out or fleshing out an army.
Then at some point someone in GW marketing notices that uptake is reducing, realises that the starter sets got expensive and thus releases a new set under a new name, again with the focus of getting newbies in and the cycle starts all over again.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Worth pointing out that within the UK (where GW is based), inflation is at 3.2% at the time of typing. This time last year? 10.10%.
So price rises are never welcome, but we can’t exclude GW from how the overall economic background works.
Funny you mention that... should we take that into account all the previous years where that wasn't the case, and they raised prices above inflation?
Absolutely! Either a justification is valid or it isn't; the answer shouldn't depend on whether it supports a predetermined position.
I assume the UK is similar to the rest of the world in that the recent inflation is in large part driven by big companies pushing up prices more than they need to cover a relatively small increase in overheads.
Hence why many companies using inflation as an excuse to raise prices are actually posting massive profits.
I dunno if GW is in the same boat.... but when they say "we’ve done our best to keep prices down", I can't help but question how honest they're being.
If they'd said "yeah, we posted great profits... but we think we can squeeze more out of it so we're putting up the price" then I'd at least respect the honesty
But, I've decreased my Warhammer spending recently anyway for various reasons, and this looks like a great reason to reduce it further or eliminate it entirely.
Charax wrote: Eh, it happens. Ordering direct is only ever a last resort anyway these days. After LGS discounts the rise should be even more negligible
On third world countries, LGS are even more expensive, so either way I'm screwed.
While it’s unfortunate they’re gone, I think GW realized that if drawing in new blood was the goal of Start Collecting!, they failed spectacularly. Mostly it was existing players scarfing up hordes of box ‘cheap’, many to be parted out and sold. I think that is a significant part of the reason for their disappearance.
Shame that the ‘entry level’ of combat patrol is so expensive, though. It’s a pretty penny to spend to get playing. If you’re going to spend that much, might just as well get the ultimate starter instead if you like Marines and Tyranids. At msrp of $210 in the US, it’s only 50 more than a single combat patrol. And you get two patrols, terrain, rules, game boards….
I bought a bunch of Start Collecting boxes when they were 65 euro. Now that they're nearly double the price for not much more in the way of miniatures I've bought exactly 1.
The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.
What were once battalion boxes are now Combat Patrols, and whatever the AoS term for them is.
And those have very specific meanings. You buy one? And play the variant of the game named after it? You have at least a complete initial starting force, at least directly balanced against one another, including variant unit rules and abilities to make up the difference.
And so, they absolutely remain an entry level product. A one and done if needs must for a given customer.
But for those who get properly hooked, as we all did? A jumping off point. But one you can always retreat to and have a fieldable force, albeit in very specific games.
Which to be completely honest, is more than previous Battalions could say for sure.
You can't buy one combat patrol box and play a game of warhammer 40k with it, you'd have no opposing army. They're an awful way for a new player to get started. Honestly I don't really know who they're *for*, at best they're for existing players to tempt them into branching out into additional armies (and they're generally a naff way to do that, with sub-optimal combinations of units and anemic savings).
Right. OK. Crap point. Twelve points to Gryffindor.
Because you can say the exact same about buying a Big Core Box. It might well come with two sides, but if you’ve no-one to play against? That’s GW’s Fault because…….(answers only accepted on the back of a £10 note)
I think the Combat patrols etc also suffer a lot when they add character miniatures, which are the most overpriced of kits.
But overall, getting into GW main games is expensive.
A potential solution to all this is making the games with just half of the required minis that they do need now. Massive armies with repeated units at high prices is a hard thing to sell to anyone.
For example Leviathan box forces would be a full army for both factions.
This price increase though is just one of the many signs that GW is happy to churn and burn the same agenda, for as long as it possibly can.
For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.
Da Boss wrote: For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.
Yeah, me personally I would have loved it if they kept the Start Collecting boxes and then had Combat Patrol/Vanguard as a sort of 'second step' purchase thing instead of just discontinuing the Start Collecting boxes. Some of the newer boxes are a good deal, though honestly the Sigmar ones are for the most part better deals (I'll admit to having purchased a few to use in Old World, and had *planned* on grabbing 1 or 2 more later in the year to expand on them).
By the way, do we know yet if Combat Patrol/Vanguard are getting price hikes yet? I know some years they have avoided it while others they got 10$ jumps.
Da Boss wrote: For me it's as simple as:
Start Collecting, good value, in the range of "oh, I can afford this!" so I spent loads on them (I got Tau, Genestealer Cults, Dark Eldar, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast, Orcs and Necrons and I'd have gotten more if they hadn't gone out of print!).
Combat Patrol, okay value, price is in the "huh, that's a big expenditure, is it REALLY worth it?" that gets me to stop and think a bit more and generally conclude "Nah, I'll skip this one".
Only got the Adeptus Mechanicus one and kinda regretted it afterwards.
I believe the term is "Barrier to entry". With Combat Patrols, at least when they launched you were getting an overall higher % of saving over the Start Collecting boxes, and tended to be a more initially field-able force. However, they are a bigger expenditure up front. the difference between an average of 90USD and 160USD (closer to 180 these days) is significant and makes people much more hesitant about just "picking one up".
It's what happens when you want to make absolutely sure people don't buy multiples of the "cheap" boxes, yes
What were once battalion boxes are now Combat Patrols, and whatever the AoS term for them is.
And those have very specific meanings. You buy one? And play the variant of the game named after it? You have at least a complete initial starting force, at least directly balanced against one another, including variant unit rules and abilities to make up the difference.
And so, they absolutely remain an entry level product. A one and done if needs must for a given customer.
But for those who get properly hooked, as we all did? A jumping off point. But one you can always retreat to and have a fieldable force, albeit in very specific games.
Which to be completely honest, is more than previous Battalions could say for sure.
That's kind of true, but kind of not, too. It's not an entry level product, because it doesn't include everything you need to play: no rules, no dice, no nothing but minis, as far as I understand. Meaning you will be needing to buy some other stuff, and/or to enter some obscure (for them) webpage to actually be able to... you know... play the game you are supposed to be buying this box for.
And yeah, at the end of the day... what most people check is "how much bang for how many bucks", and on that, well...
Because you can say the exact same about buying a Big Core Box. It might well come with two sides, but if you’ve no-one to play against? That’s GW’s Fault because…….(answers only accepted on the back of a £10 note)
You have mates who you can play with, or family, or even just play both sides, if you're providing all the stuff. That's how starter sets work and have worked for decades. A combat patrol is only a way to start playing 40k if you already have an opponent who also has an army, which is fundamentally a higher barrier for entry. I.e., it's a horrible way to start playing 40k. That's aside from all the other reasons why it's a horrible way to start playing 40k (no rulebook, often nonsensical group of miniatures, high price).
You're coming at it from the viewpoint of someone who's already in the hobby, which isn't who starter sets are for. They're for netting kids and their friends, or board gamers, or other non-hobbyists, or people who play other miniature games.
Also, if you're reading something and your response is "crap point", while I think that's pretty rude my advice is seek first to understand.
Billicus wrote: The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.
A 65€ start collecting that cost them 2€ in materials also isn't exactly a loss leader, certainly not in the same ballpark as a 65€ Kindle.
Billicus wrote: The fact that existing customers also buy the loss leader doesn't mean the loss leader has failed as a recruitment tool. The problem is GW don't like doing loss leaders at all anymore - even the actual *starter* sets are crap value.
A 65€ start collecting that cost them 2€ in materials also isn't exactly a loss leader, certainly not in the same ballpark as a 65€ Kindle.
It's only comparable margines to what companies like WGA operate with successfully.... just GW doesn't like that
Starter sets are supposed to be good entry points into the hobby, and I think it’s crazy GE is shutting them down because too many regular customers are buying them in addition to the fresh meat.
My first game? BFG starter played with my brother and our friends. We ended up getting lots of BFG minis. My first 40k game? Battle for Macragge starter with my wife. I even played a game of AOS with the starter and a friend.
It’s much more comfortable to start a new game with people I know and trust even if they aren’t familiar with the game than it is to go to the FLGS that I presumably just discovered and try to figure out which weirdo hanging out there isn’t going to be a jerk.
Army Sets, were never a good entry point with GW. They were cheaper than buying everything on its own, but hardly ever needed everything in the box or had units inside no one would ever use
those boxes are there to create the "value" and the illusion of saving.
(eg Box of 5 Marines for 50€, here you have a bundle of 11 Marines for 80€, so much value in the box and so much saving, a must buy)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Starter sets are supposed to be good entry points into the hobby, and I think it’s crazy GE is shutting them down because too many regular customers are buying them in addition to the fresh meat.
They're not though? They have three different starters for both of their flagships, which probably won't change when AoS4 drops. They're all pretty good deals too, especially for whoever gets the nid half.
By the way, do we know yet if Combat Patrol/Vanguard are getting price hikes yet? I know some years they have avoided it while others they got 10$ jumps.
We do not.
This whole discussion on them started because I asked that very same question
moment and look at their prices.
on those new 
