Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't like Primaris Marines. I don't like their fluff. "Like space Marines but unflawed" I don't like their rules, "like space Marines but more specialised and focused, and tougher aswell" I don't like their philosophy "like space Marines who are genetically engineered from a few handfuls of perfect warriors to be the ultimate supersoldiers, but even betterer and superer."

I don't like that they seem to be replacing space Marines. Unless.... They are explicitly in character replacing space Marines. If Gulman is making a play for the throne to set himself up as Shogun, and leave the corpse rotting on the throne as the nominal head of the imperium of course.

The old Marines aren't going to like that, they will oppose, probably reflexively, they didn't much like it the last time.

Gulman knows that of course and he knows he needs a force of loyal supporters he can comand that are a match for the Space Marines. He now has that with the Nu Marines.

Suddenly the naritive moves, Gullman sweeps out the High lords of Terra, and with his force of Nu Marines supported by Ad Mech and the Costodes declares the Old Marines ronin. Out laws.

That is a cool story you can tell with Nu Marines. Their might be others but GW isn't telling them yet.

This is, more or less, what I had hoped would happen in Dark Imperium - or eventually. I'd much rather a new civil war to provide some interest. The current storyline is really weak.

The usual "Oh, Chaos is resurgent, we've got our backs against the wall! Whatever shall we do!" (presses button to 3D print a massive amount of super high tech mega-marines and new wargear).

The 40K story has always been a bit lacking because of how powerful the Imperium is. Would really like to see them take it on the chin a bit more often.

you could throw them in a woodchipper.

I'll be honest, I actually really dislike the whole "Imperium Civil War" wishlists. I think they're incredibly generic, dull, and rely too much on the "the Imperium's not meant to be practical, they're so backwards they'll reject effective solutions because tradition!" kind of 40k.

Yes, the Imperium does reject things that may be effective, purely because that those things would weaken/damage the Imperium in the long run.
Allying with Tau/xenos in the long term? Makes it easier for them to betray humanity.
Using psykers and Chaotic artefacts on a wider scale? More risk of corruption? Splitting the Legions?
Less power in the hands of corruptible individuals.

Nothing Guilliman is doing is really affecting that. He's using technology that is not heretical, has been developed over an incredibly long period of time to be safe and effective, using very pure genetic stock (unlike the Cursed Founding, which didn't), and he himself is one of the single greatest figures in the history of the Imperium - one of the 20 greatest, in fact. Why *wouldn't* his word be respected, and why *wouldn't* his Primaris be widely accepted by most Chapters?

All the Civil War seems to do is inject conflict where we already have enough, all because people still think the Imperium's doing better than they should be, after losing half the galaxy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


All the Civil War seems to do is inject conflict where we already have enough, all because people still think the Imperium's doing better than they should be, after losing half the galaxy.

While hamfisting a conflict wouldnt make for good story, i feel like the fact that EVERYONE was ok with it and no one even bothers questioning it is the problem. its a giant universe not everyone will be there in person. showing small pockets of doubt and a little fighting would of at least given rowboat a chance to show just how awesome a primarch is in both battle and politics (especially for him).

Once the current crises facing the Imperium are dealt with, I think Guilliman will attempt to secularize the Imperium. He currently tolerates the Ecclesiarchy for political expediency. That will change once Vigilus is resolved (regardless of it falling). The Ecclesiarchy would fight to keep their grip on power. This is where the greatest potential for a civil war lies, in my opinion.

I would love to see the oldmarines join forces with the Fallen under Luther.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'll be honest, I actually really dislike the whole "Imperium Civil War" wishlists. I think they're incredibly generic, dull, and rely too much on the "the Imperium's not meant to be practical, they're so backwards they'll reject effective solutions because tradition!" kind of 40k.

Yes, the Imperium does reject things that may be effective, purely because that those things would weaken/damage the Imperium in the long run.
Allying with Tau/xenos in the long term? Makes it easier for them to betray humanity.
Using psykers and Chaotic artefacts on a wider scale? More risk of corruption? Splitting the Legions?
Less power in the hands of corruptible individuals.

Nothing Guilliman is doing is really affecting that. He's using technology that is not heretical, has been developed over an incredibly long period of time to be safe and effective, using very pure genetic stock (unlike the Cursed Founding, which didn't), and he himself is one of the single greatest figures in the history of the Imperium - one of the 20 greatest, in fact. Why *wouldn't* his word be respected, and why *wouldn't* his Primaris be widely accepted by most Chapters?

All the Civil War seems to do is inject conflict where we already have enough, all because people still think the Imperium's doing better than they should be, after losing half the galaxy.

Dude, you are giving the Imperium way too much credit. Most of its leadership is not nearly as pragmatic as Guilliman, and many of them don't have the best interests of humanity at heart even if they are completely uninterested in heresy. I agree that a full out Civil War isn't the most interesting way to do it, but Guilliman suffering some bureaucratic losses to Inquisitors who have their own agenda and there being some tension between the old guard traditionalists and the new that Guilliman and Cawl are bringing in is fully within reason.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'll be honest, I actually really dislike the whole "Imperium Civil War" wishlists. I think they're incredibly generic, dull, and rely too much on the "the Imperium's not meant to be practical, they're so backwards they'll reject effective solutions because tradition!" kind of 40k.

Yes, the Imperium does reject things that may be effective, purely because that those things would weaken/damage the Imperium in the long run.
Allying with Tau/xenos in the long term? Makes it easier for them to betray humanity.
Using psykers and Chaotic artefacts on a wider scale? More risk of corruption? Splitting the Legions?
Less power in the hands of corruptible individuals.

Nothing Guilliman is doing is really affecting that. He's using technology that is not heretical, has been developed over an incredibly long period of time to be safe and effective, using very pure genetic stock (unlike the Cursed Founding, which didn't), and he himself is one of the single greatest figures in the history of the Imperium - one of the 20 greatest, in fact. Why *wouldn't* his word be respected, and why *wouldn't* his Primaris be widely accepted by most Chapters?

All the Civil War seems to do is inject conflict where we already have enough, all because people still think the Imperium's doing better than they should be, after losing half the galaxy.

Imperium civil war isn't my wish list.

I said Nu Marines are dumb. What would make Nu Marines cool. Guliman usurping the throne. No civil war. A quick and succesful palace coup. The other Marines don't go to war, they are cut off from supply and support and legitimacy. Out cast Ronin.

...

So imperium civil war doesn't make sense or is fluffy... I wonder what happened with HH...

Repeating history seems to be a recurring theme in the world I live in as well as the fictional one we call the grimdark 40k...

Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living loyal son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

correction

Guilliman doesn't need to stage a coup. He is the only loyal son left, the definition of a living legend.

Until another Primarch shows up the Imperium is effectively his.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

We all know that Alpharius swapped places with Rowboat way back when and is playing the Long Con.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

Openly being the key word here, I'm sure. Any Inquisitor worth their salt is going to know how to play around Guilliman's preferences and work towards their own goals. He has been dead for a very long time after all; this is not Guilliman's Imperium, and his methods are clearly proving to be effective given that the Imperium has been cut in half by the forces of chaos. A true loyalist would have no choice but to circumvent his foolishness.

Edit: I somehow missed the italicization on openly, which indicates it is actually the key word. My point still stands!

Lore wise, Primaris marines are just marines with a fresh gene seed, (no 10,000 years of gene seed degradation), two more organs and a cybernetic muscle enhancement.

I see a lot of people are really unhappy about it, butI really just don’t understand why. Game wise, nobody is making you use them. Old marines didn’t get end times treatment.

Story wise, Roboutte was already the real guy in charge before he went in stasis, and now he is again. As much as anyone can be in charge of the Imperium. It’s more decentralized than the HRE ever was.

GW is caught between a rock and a hard place.

There are the “IT’s A sEtTiNg!” folk who reject all story advancement.

There are those who don’t think it’s moving fast enough.

You have to bear in mind they’re trying to eke out miniatures releases across the years, so telling the whole story at once works against that. They also want players to have time to play in a given bit of the narrative before moving on. So they seem to pick a couple of big story beats and spend half a year on them. Balances progression with not shooting their bolt in one go.

I sorta hope they don’t do a New Heresy, as they risk annoying a large part of their fandom if X Chapter is suddenly declared Traitoris Excommunicatus. Or if Guilliman goes bad/power crazy and dupes others. It’s all the stuff of a bad BL novel. May yet happen, but I kinda hope they don’t.

heaven forbid a GW narrativewould encounter some sort of end times resulting in an emergance of flying sharks and another type of space marine what not. That would be weird, who'd do that.

 argonak wrote:
I see a lot of people are really unhappy about it, butI really just don’t understand why. Game wise, nobody is making you use them. Old marines didn’t get end times treatment.

Yet. The key word here is yet.

Could you just use intercessors/hellblasters combined into tactical squads as truescale tacticals, and similar for assault marines etc? With the normal tactical statlines and so on with no primaris stat-line units in the army, so it's crystal clear "these are tacticals with standard tactical kit, those are assault marines with standard assaul kit"?

I'm glad the story has moved forward, but I guess GW felt pushed into a corner with the 2013 redesign that they didn't want to waste the investment for but finally realized they should have truescale marines, so handwaved in some Cawl stuff (which I enjoyed reading at least). I still like the 2013 kits so I'm torn on if to do this with Primaris or just accept the two bodied division in SMs.

Arachnofiend wrote:Dude, you are giving the Imperium way too much credit. Most of its leadership is not nearly as pragmatic as Guilliman, and many of them don't have the best interests of humanity at heart even if they are completely uninterested in heresy. I agree that a full out Civil War isn't the most interesting way to do it, but Guilliman suffering some bureaucratic losses to Inquisitors who have their own agenda and there being some tension between the old guard traditionalists and the new that Guilliman and Cawl are bringing in is fully within reason.

I don't really think I am. They might not have the best interests of humanity at heart, but that's irrelevant when your armies, and everyone else, is bowing at Guilliman's feet.
Guilliman HAS suffered bureaucratic losses, mostly against the Ecclesiarchy, but fundamentally, they're pretty much the only ones who I think could, or the Mechanicus. Other Imperial factions without massively centralised power bases (ie, other Chapters, Inquisitors, guardsmen, etc etc) simply do not have the political clout to stand up to what Guilliman can lever against them.

I honestly don't think there would be very many "old guard" standing against Guilliman, and even the few that would be there, they really don't have any power against Guilliman for a meaningful conflict. Essentially, we end up with the fluff exactly as it is now.

Headlss wrote:Imperium civil war isn't my wish list.

Oh, I know. But the idea of Guilliman vs the Imperium is a common idea I've seen tossed around regarding subjects like yours, and I'm not over keen.

I said Nu Marines are dumb. What would make Nu Marines cool. Guliman usurping the throne. No civil war. A quick and succesful palace coup. The other Marines don't go to war, they are cut off from supply and support and legitimacy. Out cast Ronin.

...

Ignoring that coolness and dumbness are subjective, I don't think this makes sense for Guilliman's character. Guilliman, above all else in war, is pragmatic - why would he outcast the vast majority of his best fighting force and risk alienating them? He's been making as many chances as possible to integrate the Primaris into the standard Chapters to avoid alienation, from the Unnumbered Sons, to the post-Indomitus Crusade splitting of the Sons, to the Rubicon Primaris.
Again, of all the Primarchs, Guilliman doesn't strike me as the kind to usurp the Emperor. He's literally had the chance to do this since the Horus Heresy (could have created his own permanent Imperium, chose to let others act as the figureheads and leaders of the Imperim Secundus, and disbanded it soon after; didn't take over in the Scouring, when he was literally in the same position he is now), so why now?

Even cut off from direct supply and legitimacy, the old marines would still have massive forges and supply chains from their own worlds/vassal systems, and have millennia of propaganda to support their legitimacy. Unless Guilliman goes all out Excommunication (which would be massively OOC), they're simply not going to go away.

skchsan wrote:So imperium civil war doesn't make sense or is fluffy... I wonder what happened with HH...

The HH is very different to this. The causes are found in deliberate Chaos machinations and corruption, and of people controlling armies far larger than in 40k. In 40k, most armies are more loyal to the Emperor and to the Throne than their generals - unlike the Heresy.

Repeating history seems to be a recurring theme in the world I live in as well as the fictional one we call the grimdark 40k...

Just because history CAN repeat itself doesn't mean it will.

Oggthrok wrote:I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

Perhaps, but why on earth would Russ do that?

Russ is the last primarch I'd expect to initiate conflict on his return; if Russ returning was to be a problem for the Imperium, I'd expect it to because he's been visibly mutated by his time in the warp and even though he is genuinely still loyal a guy that straight up looks like a Daemon Primarch isn't as easy of a symbol for the wider Imperium to stomach as Guilliman is. I'd look to Dorn or the Lion for primarchs that would actively disagree with Guilliman's decisions and open up debate where there wasn't any before.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Russ is the last primarch I'd expect to initiate conflict on his return; if Russ returning was to be a problem for the Imperium, I'd expect it to because he's been visibly mutated by his time in the warp and even though he is genuinely still loyal a guy that straight up looks like a Daemon Primarch isn't as easy of a symbol for the wider Imperium to stomach as Guilliman is. I'd look to Dorn or the Lion for primarchs that would actively disagree with Guilliman's decisions and open up debate where there wasn't any before.

Agreed. Dorn and Guilliman I think would get along - they only really seemed to have a falling out over the Codex.

The Lion is the biggest potential issue here, purely because of his reaction to Guilliman and the Imperium Secundus, but then, maybe he might understand that unity is more important than disagreeing with Guilliman here.

Oggthrok wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

Space wolves vs the imperium....this could get ugly.

Oggthrok wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

is it? what support could Russ gather? the space wolves sure, but... yet again you have Gulliman with the full backing of the custodes. so chances are thats about ALL Russ could gather.

BrianDavion wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

is it? what support could Russ gather? the space wolves sure, but... yet again you have Gulliman with the full backing of the custodes. so chances are thats about ALL Russ could gather.

In fairness, depending on who gets to write the story the Space Wolves can take on the entire Imperium and win easily. :p

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Oggthrok wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is the last living son of the emperor, and has the full backing of the Custodes. that's gonna make openly [b] opposing him hard without being branded a heretec

I do think that, so long as the conflict remains Imperium vrs Chaos, the Imperium will stay whole. But, if Leman Russ pops out of the Warp, points at Guilliman, and yells “imposter!” ?

Then it’s on.

is it? what support could Russ gather? the space wolves sure, but... yet again you have Gulliman with the full backing of the custodes. so chances are thats about ALL Russ could gather.

In fairness, depending on who gets to write the story the Space Wolves can take on the entire Imperium and win easily. :p

Against the Ultra marines? + 100k Custodians? Please....Gman is a freaking primarch - Gman might be able to defeat Russ himself on any given sunday lol.

I could not have possibly made it clearer that I was being sarcastic. The Wolves are unstoppable badasses as far as most Black Library authors are concerned so I was making fun of that.

Marneus Calgar punched an Avatar to death. In the FACE.

Russ vs Gman comes down to the writer.