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Just writing this as follow on from the discussions in news and rumours.

Over the last week we've seen daemon engines having increases in BS/WS after 5 editions of being static following the possessed vehicle fluff of 3rd/4th.

We've seen core given to death company but not wulfen or necron destroyers who are arguably no less "core" to a force.

When 9th was previewed, someone coined it "40k: competitive edition". Personally it's starting to feel that fluff considerations are being put aside in favour of making the maths of the game smoother, more competitively focused.

Just wanted a place to see others opinions.

I think it SHOULD be that way but I don't think it is that way. These decisions are being made arbitrarily more or less. It's not like necrons didn't get fair treatment of their "CORE" units and the the SM have all but the kitchen sink in their CORE.

eh, not really.

Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.

You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
eh, not really.

Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.

You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.

It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
eh, not really.

Demon engines hitting on 4's never really had a lore reason for it. It just was.
Just because GW is changing the status quo in 9th doesn't mean the setting is changing that much.
A unit having a specific keyword doesnt change the setting, it simply helps balance the game to make it more enjoyable, much like demon engines getting buffed.

You still can play fluff-accurate lists if you want.

There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.

Dudeface wrote:


It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.

yeah, but the keyword existing doesnt prevent you from running non-core units, therefore the fluff of your army isnt deleted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.

What lore reason? That theyre demons and all demons must hit on 4+?

I'm a CSM player too and one of the main complaints ive seen about demon engines is that they hit on 4+ which is why they were rarely played (or only one per army since they kinda needed demonforge to work).

It's a good buff to the unit to fix its main problem, making them cheaper at bw/ws 4+ wouldnt do anything expect force people to spam them.

If only there was some way to have a BS 3.5+
But that would involve having a dice with 12 regular sides... such a mythical thing cannot exist.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


It depends if you assume or believe the core keyword to actually represent something. If they just want a rules toggle then that's one thing, but the use of the term suggests that core units are those that form the backbone of an army. Which is often very subjective.

yeah, but the keyword existing doesnt prevent you from running non-core units, therefore the fluff of your army isnt deleted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

There was plenty of lore reason for it, and all GW had to do was keep up the esoteric wargear (like with the Maulerfiend having its tendrils or melta attachments) and keep them at a competitive price point.
As a CSM player, it's completely stupid.

What lore reason? That theyre demons and all demons must hit on 4+?

I'm a CSM player too and one of the main complaints ive seen about demon engines is that they hit on 4+ which is why they were rarely played (or only one per army since they kinda needed demonforge to work).

It's a good buff to the unit to fix its main problem, making them cheaper at bw/ws 4+ wouldnt do anything expect force people to spam them.

Possessed vehicles in previous editions reduced its BS due to not having a grasp on the material universe etc.

You then have the fact the daemons themselves don't necessarily hit on 3's

But if the argument is "make them all hit on 3's to make them more powerful", isn't that watering down the setting/rules of the last 5 editions?

Ultimately increased bs/ws will need increased points also, rendering the gain less useful.

I don't know whether it's justified in the lore or not but I'm not sure making models more and more elite is a good direction for the game.

It seems like there are too many models and too few ways to meaningfully differentiate them, especially given how shallow the current rules are. And the constant power creep really isn't helping matters.

As for the Core keyword- is it only troops that get it?

I don't have enough 9th codex material to check. But if so, and Death Company are troops while Wulfen and Destroyers are not, there's the reason.

PenitentJake wrote:
As for the Core keyword- is it only troops that get it?

I don't have enough 9th codex material to check. But if so, and Death Company are troops while Wulfen and Destroyers are not, there's the reason.

Not specifically, there is no fixed definition for what core is, it's suggested it covers mainstay/backbone units in armies.

In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.

For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.

Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.

 greatbigtree wrote:
In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.

For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.

Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.

The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.

Core is what is supposed to be the main fighting force of the army.

In Necron's case, it would be legions upon legions of Warriors and Immortals.

Destroyers are not Core because Destroyers are destruction-sick weirdos that the average Necron usually avoids and only work with for military reasons.

The problem with this is that such definition is entirely subjective and up to the Codex writer.

As for Daemon vehicles, tabletop inertia is not lore, and thus GW shouldn't be shackled by it.

Which was an issue from 5th to 7th and even early 8th. That's why basic Marines sucked for most of that period, because GW was unwilling to improve their profiles until late 8th edition.

A unit having a change to its statline would have to be pretty dramatic to count as a 'setting change' IMO, like WS 2+ firewarriors.

Daemonengines creeping up are no different from the 6e eldar stat/armour boosts - same unit, more power.

PenitentJake wrote:
As for the Core keyword- is it only troops that get it?

I don't have enough 9th codex material to check. But if so, and Death Company are troops while Wulfen and Destroyers are not, there's the reason.

No. For Space Marines, it's basically everything but vehicles.

For Necrons, it's like just warriors and immortals. Because feth you, you're not Space Marines.

 Tyran wrote:
Core is what is supposed to be the main fighting force of the army.

In Necron's case, it would be legions upon legions of Warriors and Immortals.

Destroyers are not Core because Destroyers are destruction-sick weirdos that the average Necron usually avoids and only work with for military reasons.

The problem with this is that such definition is entirely subjective and up to the Codex writer.

As for Daemon vehicles, tabletop inertia is not lore, and thus GW shouldn't be shackled by it.

Which was an issue from 5th to 7th and even early 8th. That's why basic Marines sucked for most of that period, because GW was unwilling to improve their profiles until late 8th edition.

So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die? Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".

Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.

Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.

Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:
A unit having a change to its statline would have to be pretty dramatic to count as a 'setting change' IMO, like WS 2+ firewarriors.

Daemonengines creeping up are no different from the 6e eldar stat/armour boosts - same unit, more power.

There are other ways of doing it than "hits more often" though.

Dudeface wrote:
There are other ways of doing it than "hits more often" though.

There are, and I am sure GW will use them liberally.

As others have said the old daemon WS/BS score was a balance trade-off, not a question of setting or lore.

Dudeface wrote:


So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die?

Because it is a very common situation for the BA, after all the Black Rage is a great part of their lore.

Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".

Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.

Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.

Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?

No, but it very likely ends in standardization of BS/WS based on per faction basis.

The reason why 4+ to hit felt useless on Daemon Engines is because most of the Chaos Space Marine faction hits on a 3+, so the 4+ felt inherently inferior.

Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.

The setting isn't being changed any more by these things than it was when Necron Warriors lost a point of save, or Scouts WS/BS changed back and forth, etc.


Core isn't really anything to do with actually being a core/common unit though (it's almost like there was already a mechanism to represent that... until GW broke it with detachments which don't require Troops...) - it's just a band aid to attempt to cover the problems caused by broken auras.

Even before troops being broken it wasn't an entire fitting system.

Otherwise Tyranid Gargoyles would have been troops.

 Tyran wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die?

Because it is a very common situation for the BA, after all the Black Rage is a great part of their lore.

Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".

Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.

Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.

Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?

No, but it very likely ends in standardization of BS/WS based on per faction basis.

The reason why 4+ to hit felt useless on Daemon Engines is because most of the Chaos Space Marine faction hits on a 3+, so the 4+ felt inherently inferior.

Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.

The real perk of this is if they don't take out daemonforge and chaos marines now have bs 2+ reroll hits and wounds daemon engines with a disco lord unless the units are heavily redesigned to some degree and a strat dropped.

I do expect daemon engines for factions not to get core though.

Dudeface wrote:
So why are death company core given they're frothing beserkers that are kept locked away and only let out to die? Doesn't sound like a reliable core of an army, the answer seems to be "so they benefit from litanies".

Here's the thing with the Black Rage - it's something elements of the BA will fall to on the eve of battle, something their Chaplains keep a watch for during their prayers and ceremonies. A unit of Death Company in a given game is unlikely to be a campaigning unit - it's the Brothers who lost their self-control and have to be kept together and utilised as they are. You don't really have the opportunity to hide them away in a Tower unless they fall while on Baal (or in transit to it).

In a way, they're Core because the commanders know there's always going to be a unit of them floating around as part of their force, so they may as well plan around using them for something, be it a folorn hope, a distraction Carnifex, or a method to munch through hordes of lighter troops before they get dragged down through sheer numbers.

I can't remember which edition - I want to say 3rd - but there was a period where you'd roll for each unit at the start of the game, and on a certain result members of that squad would be pulled to form the Death Company. Now, that's a great representation of how the Black Rage would work, but I can see why it would be annoying for players, especially when you consider how many Death Company models you'd need to have ready to cover possible wargear choices.

It appears that GW is more than willing to sacrifice the setting to chase the competitive dragon.

can't really blame them though, if competitive players keep throwing $€£¥ at them, they'd be remiss not to...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.

For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.

Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.

The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.

vehicles with bs3+ and a 5++ exist tho.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
In my opinion.. Having Daemonically possessed vehicles that hit on 4+ was a tradeoff for the other benefits possessed vehicles had in earlier editions.

For example, ignoring shaken and stunned results on the old damage tables meant that you couldn't stun-lock them like other vehicles. The trade-off for more reliability was that you didn't hit as often.

Having gone away from that model of damage... there's no real reason to have them stuck at 4+ to hit.

The 5++ and regen (as low as the regen is but could always go up) are still excellent benefits.

vehicles with bs3+ and a 5++ exist tho.

But why does every vehicle need to be bs3 and 5++, variety is the spice of life

To answer the OP question: No.

Stat adjustments don't change or 'twist' the setting.

GW making changes that were kept that way out of habit or tradition is largely good for the _game_, which is where game mechanic changes matter.

Unless people want to insist that orks go back to their original statline of WS 4+ (or rather, WS3 in old terms), Strength 3 and 1 attack.

Dudeface wrote:

But why does every vehicle need to be bs3 and 5++, variety is the spice of life

Not 'every vehicle' does- that's a non-argument. But daemon engines are supposed to be impressive, not lackluster. And in a faction that's largely WS/BS 3+, that's exactly how they currently feel. Daemon engines are largely mediocre at best, and overpriced. Past time to change that.

Dudeface wrote:


Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.

Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.

Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?

Translates to "My factions statline improvements makes sense, but why should a demonically possessed machine hit worse than its non-possessed counterpart?"

Basic Space Marines DOUBLED in wounds because....reasons. They also basically doubled their ROF with their basic weapons, they also got AP-1 on their basic weapon for about 1/3rd of the game, they also DOUBLED their # of attacks in CC most of the time.

But god forbid a demon engine gets its chance to hit increased from 50% to 66%.

Also, Orkz used to be BS4+ so them going to 5+ was a nerf and going back would be basically a marginal buff since DDD moves them to about BS 4.5+

 Tyran wrote:


Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.

Well...that is what the fluff would lead you to believe but unfortunately thanks to the increase in damage output, orkz are lagging far behind. The faction that literally coined the phrase Dakka, has less of it than elite armies like SM's and Eldar. In 8th I was able to out dakka my opponents but only if I sunk a massive amount of points into 2 units of Lootas, 3+ units of Grotz to shield the lootas and than 5-6CP a turn to power the Lootas up enough to have decent dakka.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Marines were improved in ways that seem to rationally make sense, even if some seem arbitrary. Going 2 wounds, yeah you can see an 8ft super human with redundant organs needing to be hurt more than you or I.

Daemon engines were on a 4+ to hit for so long because of a rooted standard and fluff reason, the same way orks hit on 5's and marines have a 3+ save.

Where does it end? When every army hits on a 3+ minimum so nobody has "useless" units?

Translates to "My factions statline improvements makes sense, but why should a demonically possessed machine hit worse than its non-possessed counterpart?"

Basic Space Marines DOUBLED in wounds because....reasons. They also basically doubled their ROF with their basic weapons, they also got AP-1 on their basic weapon for about 1/3rd of the game, they also DOUBLED their # of attacks in CC most of the time.

But god forbid a demon engine gets its chance to hit increased from 50% to 66%.

Also, Orkz used to be BS4+ so them going to 5+ was a nerf and going back would be basically a marginal buff since DDD moves them to about BS 4.5+

 Tyran wrote:


Meanwhile Orks 5+ to hit with ranged weapons is their faction standard. Any Ork that hits better than with a gun thus fells more precise, a "zharpzhooter." Also Ork design is expected to account for that, so you can expect a lot of shots to force those 5+ to hit.

Well...that is what the fluff would lead you to believe but unfortunately thanks to the increase in damage output, orkz are lagging far behind. The faction that literally coined the phrase Dakka, has less of it than elite armies like SM's and Eldar. In 8th I was able to out dakka my opponents but only if I sunk a massive amount of points into 2 units of Lootas, 3+ units of Grotz to shield the lootas and than 5-6CP a turn to power the Lootas up enough to have decent dakka.

I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

And how exactly does DC getting Core over the other units listed make the game more competitively balanced?