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Post by: notprop
Let me remind everyone that "grain of salt" responses are spam and will be treated accordingly. Thanks ~Manchu
During a mooch around one of the better known Independent Games shops in the UK I was told that GW are no longer accepting orders for Tau stock indicating that a release is proably imminent. So guessing the traditional WFB/40K pattern following Necrons there will be some WFB goodies followed by Tau in the new year.
The bloke who told me was a blowhard so season as appropriate, but the owner corroborated it so I thought that I would put it out there.
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Post by: ceku
What a great time for me to stop my tau and start a raven guard army =p
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Post by: SickSix
Well I hope so. If this gets any more steam behind it I will get motivated to finish my SM army faster, so I can have a clear table for when the Tau come out!
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Post by: Rented Tritium
That's a motivation to finish painting my the tau I have.
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Post by: gilljoy
Brilliant.
Tau can be my next army after guards 
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Commence salt dump
Please do not spam the forum with these "grain of salt" type posts and pics. Thanks! ~Manchu
Looking forward to them getting an update though.
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Post by: omerakk
Doubtful that it is "imminent"
GW has all but confirmed the next codex will be a marine one; kind of like how we've known Necrons have been coming since April.
After that? Possibly.
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Post by: Prodigalson
They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.
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Post by: obsidianaura
Hmm which will be first (if at all) Tau codex or 6th edition?
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Post by: punkow
As a genuine Tau Hater I hope this will never happen.
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Post by: Prodigalson
Sorry Samus, my response was aimed at Omerakk. I think we're going to see tau slink in around march IMHO, then get chaos in May-June then 6th edition.
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Post by: omerakk
Samus_aran115 wrote:Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.
You can add Eldar, Orks, and Daemons to that list 
Personally, yes, I am pulling for the Tau as well, but just from little hints that were said at games day, the chatter around here, and the fact that 6th edition is coming out next year... I won't bet money on it. A new boxed set is a sure thing with a new edition, and you know a marine army will be one of the factions. There was some hype about it being marines vs chaos marines... that would make some sense; trying to capitalize on the space marine video game. Plus, you can't get a much more even starter set than a marine vs marine, good vs bad situation
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Post by: DPBellathrom
hopefully the added my idea of hentau :3
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Samus_aran115 wrote:Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.
Regular Eldar are up as well, though with a less critical need than the others.
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Post by: KarlPedder
omerakk wrote:Doubtful that it is "imminent"
GW has all but confirmed the next codex will be a marine one; kind of like how we've known Necrons have been coming since April.
After that? Possibly.
Yeah i can't agree with it being known I think alot of folk are expecting Tau next.....
I'd say Tau in April
6th June/July
New Marine/New Chaos you might get one or the other of these before 6th.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
They're at the very least in the pipe.
The pipe just might be long is all.
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Post by: Prodigalson
What Karlpeddler said
December is new terrain
January is VC/Imperial Guard Wave
February is probably more VC stuff and last DE Wave (Void Bomber)
I think we will see two 40K codexes before 6th edition personally, then one more after the new edition drops. My money is on Tau/Chaos Space Marines/Dark Angels (Hard Back) with Eldar in Spring of 2013. Tau don't need the update that Necrons and DE have gotten, nor will they get it. They need a new codex for rules, but they already have eight plastic kits, and very little still in pure metal and a few metal hybrids.
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Post by: Anung Un Rama
GIVE ME A NEW CHAOS BOOK, NURGLE DAMN IT!!! 
I know Tau have some rules that make absolutly no sense with the current rulebook, but I really want a new chaos book. 
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Post by: StormRaven
Well from what I remember hearing was we where getting Chaos then Eldar then Dark Angels then Tau. But that was a month or two ago... Besides we also have 6th edition coming out.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Prodigalson wrote:What Karlpeddler said
December is new terrain
January is VC/Imperial Guard Wave
February is probably more VC stuff and last DE Wave (Void Bomber)
I think we will see two 40K codexes before 6th edition personally, then one more after the new edition drops. My money is on Tau/Chaos Space Marines/Dark Angels (Hard Back) with Eldar in Spring of 2013. Tau don't need the update that Necrons and DE have gotten, nor will they get it. They need a new codex for rules, but they already have eight plastic kits, and very little still in pure metal and a few metal hybrids.
Since GW is in the business of selling models, not rules, they're going to get all kinds of things.
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Post by: Prodigalson
I'm for the getting all kinds of things, I just don't think we will see the huge update that we have seen for DE and to a lesser degree Necrons. Tau were rumored to be getting 3 new plastic kits and 3 finecast kits I think.
I think the big update is going to be for chaos. That book needs a huge update, with all types of plastic. I expect it to be the new power house of 6th edition.
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Post by: Breotan
About the use of "not accepting orders" as an indicator of an immenant release, please consider the Necrons which still have most current models up for sale (including some getting new plastics) even though the new range is coming in less than a month.
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Post by: deejaybainbridge
I am no expert on the subject, however I do see the cover art work for the codex's being a good indication of the path GW have taken recently.
Necrons are the only current book not in the current format. So clearly this is being addressed next month, making all books look and feel the same.
Next thing to look at is which books were done first out of the current set?. Someone on here I’m sure will be privy to that info?
If I look at what people have stated they want to see done next the list gets a bit silly.
CSM
Eldar
Tau
Orks
Daemons
Dark Angels
Black Templar’s
That's half the armies. Those that were done in 4th edition but in the current format should be coming up next if you think logically (and yes I know GW don’t do that blah blah blah) But in truth that will be the approach. So chances are any books post Necrons will be gearing up for 6th edition, with a new format. Full colour hard back new cover art (similar to Orc’s and Goblins and Tomb Kings books for fantasy)
Two things to consider, a) what army’s are in the 6th edition box set. If it’s any of those above I suspect they will get done first, same as they did with Skaven prior to the new edition of fantasy. And b) what armies sell? Marines sell, so that may hint at chaos marines, maybe.
Anyway that’s my two pence worth on the matter. I suspect it’ll be the largest selling army that has the oldest book. Which one that is is beyond my knowledge.
My guess will be a chaos army and a imperial army. Good Vs Bad, that old chestnut. But which really depends on age and sale appeal. Launching a new edition of the rules they will want two heavy selling armies to front the new edition.
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Post by: Harriticus
2 40k codex releases so close to each other? GW usually seems to wait quite a well between releases.
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Post by: Prodigalson
They did the same thing at the close of 4th edition. We got CSM in Sept 2007, then Orks in Jan 2008, Chaos Demons in May 2008 and 5th edition in the summer then Space Marine in October 2008. Three codexes that year.
So we got 3 Codexes for 2008
Then got 2 codexs in 2009 (Guard/Space Wolves)
Then got 3 for 2010 (Tyranids, Blood Angels, DE)
Then got 2 for 2011 (Grey Knights, Necrons)
I think we're about due for a 3 year.
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Post by: deejaybainbridge
Prodigalson wrote:They did the same thing at the close of 4th edition. We got CSM in Sept 2008, then Orks in Jan 2008, Chaos Demons in May 2008 and 5th edition in the summer then Space Marine in October 2008. Three codexes that year.
So we got 3 Codexes for 2008
Then got 2 codexs in 2009 (Guard/Space Wolves)
Then got 3 for 2010 (Tyranids, Blood Angels, DE)
Then got 2 for 2011 (Grey Knights, Necrons) Sisters of battle
I think we're about due for a 3 year.
We got three, in a sense.
So the oldest 4th edition codex is Orks?
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Post by: Prodigalson
Black Templars/Tau/Eldar/Dark Angels/CSM/Orks/Chaos Demons... in that order is now the oldest.
If we are going to count white dwarf articles, we also got one of those during 2008(Blood Angels - December), so there were 4 codexes that year.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Of those, I think eldar and orks are both the least urgent, and represent a greater sculpting challenge than the others and will probably get saved for high sales parts of the year.
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Post by: DODcrazy
Samus_aran115 wrote:Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.
I shudder at the thought of CSM being the first 6th ed codex. Let's pray the Dark Angels and BT get their turn right after tau (who need it the most)
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
Key word: soon. I quote myself: Lt. Coldfire wrote:Unfortunately, soon from GamesWorkshop is anywhere from 2 days to 7 years, so I wouldn't depend on that.
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Post by: Prodigalson
The rumors seem to coordinate that it is CSM/DA against each other in the boxed set. If that's true you can bet one of them is set for release for Oct 2012 and the other will come out before hand.
That's why I'm crossing my fingers for a tau release to slip in, because I think if they don't, everyone needs to buckle up, because tau are going to be the new Necrons/Dark Eldar with a releast for 2013 or 2014 (making it 7-8 years old at that point).
On the flip side, at least when the aliens do get their releases, GW does not appear to be holding back. DE were amzing, and I love the new necron stuff.
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Post by: baron deathnyx
I do hope that the Tau are getting a new codex so this way the Dark Eldar can have another cultural exchange with them.
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Post by: snake
As Bart Scott once said: CAN'T WAIT!
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Post by: notprop
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Key word: soon.
I quote myself:
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Unfortunately, soon from GamesWorkshop is anywhere from 2 days to 7 years, so I wouldn't depend on that.
The key word is actually probably.
As for the issue of still listing Necrons with an imminent new release, I saw a GW in London today that was still pushing the old codex!
Makes you think they don't want that stuff hanging around any longer! 
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Post by: zilegil
We have a lot of astartes codexes at the mo. I think eldar would be a better idea, IMO
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Post by: Riker210
We dont need more Lame Marines updates. By far the most boring plain models in the game (Grey knights aside). I hope Tau gets it before anything Space Marine.
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Post by: Nvs
Weren't all signs pointing to the new 40k box being DA vs Legions (with rumors saying they could be 2 seperate starter kits instead of 1 joint kit) by the middle of next year? This would probably point to Tau early next year.
I really hope DA aren't the first codex for a new edition again seeing as how much they destroyed the last codex. DA are also going to be a difficult army to do simply because, as it stands now, they haven't got a single thing to make them stand out aside from their background.
Will be interesting to see how the DA turn out.
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Post by: Castiel
Nvs wrote:Weren't all signs pointing to the new 40k box being DA vs Legions (with rumors saying they could be 2 seperate starter kits instead of 1 joint kit) by the middle of next year? This would probably point to Tau early next year.
I really hope DA aren't the first codex for a new edition again seeing as how much they destroyed the last codex. DA are also going to be a difficult army to do simply because, as it stands now, they haven't got a single thing to make them stand out aside from their background.
Will be interesting to see how the DA turn out.
Except Ravenwing, Deathwing and a jetbike.
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Post by: zilegil
If you believe it to be early next year, then why have GW stopped stocking Tau?
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Post by: Ascalam
They stopped stocking many Necron units months ago. The release hasn't happened yet
I wouldn't be shocked if tau follow Necrons. They don't tend to do big releases in December though, for some reason, and they'll be pushing Necrons all through November, so january would likely be Tau New Year
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Post by: Prodigalson
January is a fantasy book, Vampire Counts.
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Post by: zilegil
However unlikely, it might be December?
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Post by: Nagashek
Besides, we all know the pattern, long established by years of tradition:
Xenos
Marines
Xenos
Marines
Occasionally IG takes the place of Marines, but usually it takes the place of Xenos. So then we get:
Marines
Xenos
Marines
IG
Marines
Xenos
That was fun.
Anyway, we just got Necrons, so the safe money is on Marines next.
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Post by: snake
Nagashek wrote: Anyway, we just got Necrons, so the safe money is on Marines next.
Ahh folks we haven't even officially gotten necrons yet!
No chance Tau are coming this year, especially with the official necron release clearly only a short time away. Its already november and truth is, we probably would have been hearing a lot more rumors if they were coming so soon as december.
And yeah, tradition shows marines are next anyhow and probably fantasy before that.
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Post by: Flashman
Yes, Dark Angels would be logical... or Black Templars if GW really, really wanted to annoy me.
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Post by: Ascalam
BT it is then
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Flashman wrote:Yes, Dark Angels would be logical... or Black Templars if GW really, really wanted to annoy me.
How does GW even make money off marines? New players seem to buy them anyway and old players can just paint their stock a different colour (if that). Is the demand for chapter specific units really that great?
We've had three xenos armies.
Dark Eldar
Tyranids
necrons
weighed against 5 (6) Imperial armies
space marines
grey knights
blood angels
Imperial guard
space wolves
(I don't think they count myself) SOB white dwarf
Just think before necrons came out, you could argue the Imperials got three codex's in 5th edition for just one xenos.
Given what happened to SOB I hope they don't also skip Tau as I'd like some new battlesuits for my army.
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Post by: Kreedos
That SOB white dwarf totally counts. Honestly after playing it more I'm very happy with the result, it's under powered as any WD dex is, but I think it definately ties in with their release schedule of codexes.
SoB (Marine) latest
Necrons (Xenos) next up
CSM (Marine)
Eldar or Tau (Xenos)
Dark Angels (Marine)
Eldar or Tau (Xenos)
Black Templar (Marine) Though we haven't heard much, they're going to be the only old codex left.
Chaos Daemons?
Of course some of this is speculation and anything in this list can change, but it looks like they're still releasing in order.
Also, keep in mind Necrons were taken off the shelves at least 6 months ago, just because the models are pulled doesn't mean they're going to be coming out with any urgency.
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Kreedos wrote:That SOB white dwarf totally counts. Honestly after playing it more I'm very happy with the result, it's under powered as any WD dex is, but I think it definately ties in with their release schedule of codexes.
SoB (Marine) latest
Necrons (Xenos) next up
CSM (Marine)
Eldar or Tau (Xenos)
Dark Angels (Marine)
Eldar or Tau (Xenos)
Black Templar (Marine) Though we haven't heard much, they're going to be the only old codex left.
Chaos Daemons?
Of course some of this is speculation and anything in this list can change, but it looks like they're still releasing in order.
I heard comments that 6th is coming this summer for the 25th anniversary of 40k. Which would mean we have to go through the popular codex's again, Marines and Guard before we start on the others. A shame about SOB since they count, means they aren't going to be out for a long time. I'll probably end up with a 6th edition nid army before I get new Tau or SOB 
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Post by: bombboy1252
obsidianaura wrote:Hmm which will be first (if at all) Tau codex or 6th edition?
Neither, knowing GW, its going to be Black Templars...
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Post by: Tabitha
The Tau are, I believe, due out next summer.
They are getting some pretty big changes, mostly to their troops and elites. In addition to the broadsides getting new sculpts they are getting a number of new “Suits” to help them become a more dynamic force with more choices over all in the way they are played. While GW is giving the tau a host of new units, the are actually getting fewer new plastic kits then say the Dark Elder release because most (/all) of the new plastic tau kits build several options.
Their fluff is being expanded to reflect the growth of the empire and their current state of expansion. Most of the fluff centers around the ‘factions’ as you might call them in the Tau empire, and mostly covers a few dynamic characters (who will be getting models!) and the factions they are a part of or influence. Some of the Tau are quite badass (and not so goody goody).
Tau are out before Eldar but more then likely after sisters. BT have a few models/kits that have been done for like EVER so who knows when they will be released.
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Post by: snake
Tabitha wrote:The Tau are, I believe, due out next summer.
They are getting some pretty big changes, mostly to their troops and elites. In addition to the broadsides getting new sculpts they are getting a number of new “Suits” to help them become a more dynamic force with more choices over all in the way they are played. While GW is giving the tau a host of new units, the are actually getting fewer new plastic kits then say the Dark Elder release because most (/all) of the new plastic tau kits build several options.
Their fluff is being expanded to reflect the growth of the empire and their current state of expansion. Most of the fluff centers around the ‘factions’ as you might call them in the Tau empire, and mostly covers a few dynamic characters (who will be getting models!) and the factions they are a part of or influence. Some of the Tau are quite badass (and not so goody goody).
Tau are out before Eldar but more then likely after sisters. BT have a few models/kits that have been done for like EVER so who knows when they will be released.
How do you know all this
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Post by: Welsh_guy
Prodigalson wrote:What Karlpeddler said
December is new terrain
January is VC/Imperial Guard WaveFebruary is probably more VC stuff and last DE Wave (Void Bomber)
What new imperial guard??? Not to sound picky but where did you hear about - link? I fear I have missed some new info about my favourite 40K army. More IG is never a bad thing, even if I am skint. 
Many thanks.
Nate
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Tabitha wrote:The Tau are, I believe, due out next summer.
They are getting some pretty big changes, mostly to their troops and elites. In addition to the broadsides getting new sculpts they are getting a number of new “Suits” to help them become a more dynamic force with more choices over all in the way they are played. While GW is giving the tau a host of new units, the are actually getting fewer new plastic kits then say the Dark Elder release because most (/all) of the new plastic tau kits build several options.
Their fluff is being expanded to reflect the growth of the empire and their current state of expansion. Most of the fluff centers around the ‘factions’ as you might call them in the Tau empire, and mostly covers a few dynamic characters (who will be getting models!) and the factions they are a part of or influence. Some of the Tau are quite badass (and not so goody goody).
Tau are out before Eldar but more then likely after sisters. BT have a few models/kits that have been done for like EVER so who knows when they will be released.
Inc new model for shadowsun?
Wait, factions, so there'll be more than just farsight n regular? Do you mean like some commanders being more xenophobic, some more pro-alien, some who eschew diplomacy in favour of aggressive conquest, doubters of the ethereals, and their fanatics (one of which mentioned above)?
So, light 'power armour' suits, regular XV8 and heavier XV88; something like that?
Doubt aside, if they brought out sisters closely followed by tau then  Iam going to be so poor!
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Post by: killykavekommando
I have waited so long for this moment.
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Post by: Worglock
This is great. We can go from GW Necron Rage straight to GW Tau Rage.
At least one of my local guys will be happy, he'll finally be able to have a competitive Tau army that doesn't involve playing Space Wolves.
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Worglock wrote:This is great. We can go from GW Necron Rage straight to GW Tau Rage.
At least one of my local guys will be happy, he'll finally be able to have a competitive Tau army that doesn't involve playing Space Wolves.
I wasn't raging, if its true then...
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Post by: Starfarer
Prodigalson wrote:omerakk wrote:Doubtful that it is "imminent"
GW has all but confirmed the next codex will be a marine one; kind of like how we've known Necrons have been coming since April.
After that? Possibly.
They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
By " GW" he mean's "someone on the internet" and by "confirmed the next codex" he means "took a wild guess based on previous release cycles."
I do believe all the usual reliable rumor guys have said Tau are a ways off.
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Post by: omerakk
By "GW" he mean's "someone on the internet" and by "confirmed the next codex" he means "took a wild guess based on previous release cycles."
Actually, I was referring to the banter at Games Day Aus. "Things are going great; sure hope Chaos doesn't reign next year" and "people who played the video game but never 40k might give the battle brothers a second look soon"
Just the usual "hints but not really" they've thrown out in the past. Gives a little bit more credit to the Da/ csm battlebox for 6th edition rumor than a new Tau codex rumor
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Post by: Starfarer
It was just a joke, man. That's why I included a
Good to hear more hints about Chaos in the pipeline, though. Trying to write a pure legion army list with the current codex is just depressing.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I already have a large number of Tau models so I need a new codex much more than new models, unless some super new units (e.g. Orca gunship) are released.
Some of the older models are rather old and tired. The battlesuits in particular are difficult to assemble and pose.
Revised kits would be a boon for new players, and by making the weapon sprues separately available as Bitz, GW could enable existing players to adapt and upgrade their current models.
In terms of revisions to the rules, the Crisis suits are fine as they are. They should just be a bit cheaper and you should be able to take more of them. A unit limit of four would make more sense than three. The sections that need real work are Troops and Fast Attack.
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Post by: darrkespur
I really hope they update the normal crisis suits as well as the broadsides, the normal suits are so clunky, you have to do so much work to get them looking streamlined - I hope they move more towards the forgeworld style (and allow you to use some of those great models in the codex). The legs for the crisis suits are too spindly, and the arms are too fat and awkward to pose. They could probably just recut the sprue a bit, change the arms and add some armour to the legs with a few more head options and you'd be well underway, although a smaller backpack would also be welcome.
Hoping we also see more alien races - better vespid models, demiurge (I think allowing demiurge as elites and maybe a character or walker, that are slow but good in combat would be a nice way to add to the tau repertoire whilst expanding the fluff and doing a bit of fan service), possibly one or two extra races. An extra elite or fast attack kroot unit would be good for those who like to play kroot mercenary armies.
The codex needs points changes most of all but it would also benefit hugely from characters that allow you to change the force organisation chart - suits as troops, kroot characters, etc.
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Post by: notprop
Kilkrazy wrote:..........Revised kits would be a boon for new players, and by making the weapon sprues separately available as Bitz, GW could enable existing players to adapt and upgrade their current models.....................
Ever hopeful eh KK. That would suit [geddit!] me down to the ground as I have an almost complete Tau Army on the sprue in storage awaiting a revamp. The problem being that I'm sure GW will sell the battlesuit as a small box again meaning that most of the options will be across a number of small sprues. I'm not sure I have seen that type of thing available as a sprue only option from GW (just the vehicle acessories?). Anyway, who are we kidding GW want to sell more new kits not allow you to reuse your existing ones. Now since we are wish listing other than revised battlesuits (if GW even change them!  )I would like to see; Decent HQ options other than the Crisis, Human Auxillaries (surely these must be fairly common in the Empire by now + GW sell more cadians!), Weird one but vehicle transport options for Kroot - a bit fluffy but I think they might pick up the occassional chimera or whatever whilst Merc-ing about the universe and allow better integrated support than just Krootox Troops options - they mush have developed support weaponry by now! Seeker missiles for 5pts or as an unlimited (one use per markerlight per turn for a single squad) vehicle option for say 15pts - that way you can load up and have AT support the ground troops. At 10pts I'm reticent to use them.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Cadaver wrote:
I do believe all the usual reliable rumor guys have said Tau are a ways off.
Right, but " a ways off" and "soon" both have the same problem of meaning anything between 3 months and 3 years. Next summer is well within the range of "a ways off" and "soon" depending on who you ask.
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Post by: Conrad Turner
darrkespur wrote:They could probably just recut the sprue a bit, change the arms and add some armour to the legs with a few more head options and you'd be well underway, although a smaller backpack would also be welcome.
Not likely. Plastic is moulded at very high pressure and the machines needed to produce even small sprues are rated in the 5-20 ton range or more. Moulds are cut so that there are not large, empty spaces to one side which can easily be used to adapt the sprue at some indefined time in the future, but that maximum available space is used - possibly getting multiple sprues out in a single cycle, or making all the sprues necessary for a single model which are then cut into sepperate sprues and boxed.
Therefore any alterations to existing models requires either throwing away the mould that has been used, and may be towards the end of it's life anyway, or making a mould for just the extra bits. Adjusting existing moulds is expensive, does not guarantee results, and certainly will be met with complaints from the consumer as the new bits will be that little bit sharper and better moulded than the old ones. Much better to make a complete new mould, especially if the old one is near the end of it's life.
This may be, in fact, the deciding factor of why GW releases a new codex/range of models when they do. Why have a brand new mould made of a Tau Devilfish that is exactly the same as the previous version if in a years time they are going to replace it with something that requires a couple of extra bits and incorporate the Hammerhead sprue at the same time, thus reducing the need to have different boxes printed, quality control ensuring that Devilfish go in Devilfish boxes, not Hammerhead ones, etc.
This is undoubtedly why GW are releaseing the new Necron models in boxes that can make either of two variants - it saves them money, time, and hassle.
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Post by: marmaduke
if there really is a new tau army i just see one major problem. at their core they are (i believe) a shooting army. they are going to have to get real creative cause well.... how in the world are they going to deal with space marine drop pods? cant really get excited for even this casue well the current codex is crap and the whole idea behind them being a shooty army just got done all wrong. eldar do it so much better. hopefully thoughh they get something to deal with marine drop pod lists
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Post by: Kendo
Rather than shoehorning assault auxillaries into the list to cover the glaring CC inadequacies, I would rather see improved defensive measures that adversely affected the capacity to assault or move by the enemy. Weapon drones that take advantage of rumored overwatch shots of 6th ed to pin assualting troops before they even get moving. I don't always want to see every troops type in every list, but I think that there are ways to control each phase of the game by manipulating existing machanics.
1478
Post by: warboss
notprop wrote:That would suit [geddit!] me down to the ground as I have an almost complete Tau Army on the sprue in storage awaiting a revamp. The problem being that I'm sure GW will sell the battlesuit as a small box again meaning that most of the options will be across a number of small sprues. I'm not sure I have seen that type of thing available as a sprue only option from GW (just the vehicle acessories?).
Anyway, who are we kidding GW want to sell more new kits not allow you to reuse your existing ones.
Now since we are wish listing other than revised battlesuits (if GW even change them! )I would like to see;
Decent HQ options other than the Crisis,
Human Auxillaries (surely these must be fairly common in the Empire by now + GW sell more cadians!),
Weird one but vehicle transport options for Kroot - a bit fluffy but I think they might pick up the occassional chimera or whatever whilst Merc-ing about the universe and allow better integrated support than just Krootox
Troops options - they mush have developed support weaponry by now!
Seeker missiles for 5pts or as an unlimited (one use per markerlight per turn for a single squad) vehicle option for say 15pts - that way you can load up and have AT support the ground troops. At 10pts I'm reticent to use them.
The Tau fluff states that they specifically try to equip every firewarrrior as well as possible and don't believe in squad support weaponry for that reason. Why give one guy a str7 weapon when the whole squad deserves a 30" str5 upgrade! Of course, as the Necron rumors show, fluff can change significantly with a new codex so maybe they'll change their mind.
The Tau crisis suit current design doesn't fit the style of the other vehicles in the army. While the various fish, drones, and stealth suits have curvy design features, the crisis suits (and broadsides) are too blocky. Forgeworld hit the design nail on the head with their take on the suits and I hope that any redesign basically copies theirs. While I'm not a big fan of the newer hazard suits, I do see something like that entering the codex as well.
25852
Post by: ajefferism
I'd love to see some sort of "Anti aircraft fire" abillity where Tau get a round of shooting against incoming deep strikers. I think they had something similar in Planetstrike (or maybe Cities of Death?)
And since they dont have any sort of psychic powers (and I'd like to see it stay that way) I'd like to see them have a psychic resistance, sort of like how dwarfs in fantasy get extra defense dice against magic.
It would also be great if Ethereals were useful and gave some sort of different inspirational buffs to firewarriors etc, like for one round a unit of firewarriors gets to reroll failed hits in the shooting phase or something like that.
Anyway, back on topic, in past rumor posts Demiurge seemed like a good solution to Tau's inablity to actually defend objectives. Also, the rumor that markerlights would be streamlined/simplified would be kinda nice too.
770
Post by: Kendo
I haven't liked the way the Ethereals have worked in either codex, and I think the models have been even worse with the pinacle of terrible inspiration being the pope mobile. I would like GW to revisit the enite concept of Ethreals and overhaul the imagery and application of this HQ unit.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
Every time someone mentions an IG wave I cringe. This would be...what...their 4th wave? What about Tyranids, eh? Still not even had a 2nd wave.
Tau would be a simple update for rules but the standard Imperial/Xenos sales plan would not allow a Xenos/Xenos release. HERESY.
3250
Post by: Prodigalson
Drop pods aren't dangerous to Tau. Proper deployment with kroot actually can cripple the army before they get started. I've been killing drop pod lists since they were introduced.
The imperial guard is the Hydra, the griffon and other bombardment type tank and the plastic storm troopers. There is a thread on it on warseer.
I have three painted ethereals and honestly, I can't tell you how that even happened. The rumors from awhile back was that ethereals will be getting a major overhaul, but I think Tau in general (rules wise) will be so different as to be mind blowing. I look forward to the death of the current castle method that bores me to tears.
I'm hoping tau get a host of deployment methods including coming in from the opponents board edge. In the background they always talk about vertical envelopment, and hunters attacking. I hope Tau end up with an army that plays very well from reserve to disrupt the enemy. Deploying on the table and getting into a shooting war is very IG, not tau, IMHO. But we'll see, I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever they do.
35071
Post by: Enigma Crisis
I kinda take hope that Tau will be getting a new codex soon because the only finecast model they have gotten was/is the sniper drones. That was welcomed due to the fact metal sniper drones fall and when the do they fall hard. It would be nice to have Tau be a 6th edition release because that would allow me to order some forgeworld models but at the same time if they are pre-6th then I would know what to buy from forgeworld and what not to.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Some rumours from Warseer:
DuskRaider wrote:Last I heard was Tau were next (whenever that may be), then Chaos. Eldar are supposed to be coming shortly after that.
ghost21 wrote:It matches what I've heard.
I think a new mercenary race is obligatory. Demiurg /wishlist.
No need to wishlist there.
Frgt/10 wrote:All the new Tau models are done; Dave Thomas worked on them for roughly 18 months and he's finished them all now.
They're just waiting for a releases slot, I don't now when that is but my guess it is has since been locked in since I found out this info.
Harry wrote:@Frgt/10 : I can't believe you blabbed.
(In fact ... I only know about this because I asked someone when was I going to see something else from Dave for Fantasy and was told not for a while because he had been on one 40K project for the last 18 months )
As you know I don't know much about 40K and so couldn't possibly shed any light on what it might be but ....
... amongst other things ... Dave has been working on something pretty big. (Helpful as always. )
Also Frgt/10 is correct in that Dave Thomas has been exclusiely on Tau for 18 months but he is not 100% correct. Whilst MOST of the models are done. My understanding is Dave Thomas still had some bits and bobs to do. (i am guessing finishing characters?)
But even so that means they could be in the next six months.
(But I am not expecting them quite this soon).
Frgt/10 wrote:also Harry I heard down here that he was 100% done with them, hence why he was in oz for GD. Or have you heard otherwise in the last month or so?
Mirbeau wrote:Bang on, a new vehicle besides characters to finish with, they've had it an age but can't decide on it's weapons load-out! That could be for a bit later mind. 6 months is a bit too soon, 8-10 from what I've heard.
Edit - I was quite confident that Alex Hedstrom had got involved for this too?
Harry wrote:Oh, Dave has not been working on his own.
I don't know when they are released.
I just said six months could be possible.
I have them for the early summer in my, constantly updated, release schedule as the release right before 6th Edition
(I just don't take the same interest in 40k to have nailed it down).
These rumours are hugely exciting, I wonder how many models 18 months hard work gets you...
More if there are dual kits 
Obviously you are free to not answer or may not know but there is only one thing I want to know how many new alien auxilaries and I don't mean new units of Vespid/Kroot I mean new species? Pretty please
More.
OK, OK ... What I heard was ... 'The Empire is expanding to include more races' (Plural)
So that would suggest at least two "More".
ghost21 wrote:The demiurg are there as are a bizzare race, the vespid get 2 slots, and the kroot get an additional.
The guy on the left well, they have plans for him:
The Dude wrote:Oddly, GW tends to nerf troops choices people actually use. The lack of fire warriors in almost every list these days makes me wonder if they might be improved.
The rumored changes for 6th edition will improve them a bit.
Additional rapid fire shots at long range. A gunline putting out 20 S5 shots at 30" would be rather nasty IMO (and that's just 1 squad).
I don't know what their range will be, but taking them as they are now, under the rumoured changes to rapid fire weapons, Fire Warriors will get double shots at max range (30" if that's what it is) if they stand still. That makes them a fair whack better IMO.
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Post by: ShatteredBlade
I just can't do Tau. I hate their models, especially those suits. Look like gak to me.
16689
Post by: notprop
notprop for the scoop then!
Thanks for the collation Kroot.
That four armed merc/auxillary seems to have his pick of weapons from across the galaxy! Not sure I like the sketch that much (four arms is mutey territory I tells ya!) but time will tell how that translates to a mini.
Not seen one of those crystaline pistols sinec RT and Harlequins.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
Just a thought, but with Vespid, Kroot, that character up there and possibly Demigurg, could Tau be fielded only using mercenaries?
17692
Post by: Farmer
deejaybainbridge wrote:Prodigalson wrote:They did the same thing at the close of 4th edition. We got CSM in Sept 2008, then Orks in Jan 2008, Chaos Demons in May 2008 and 5th edition in the summer then Space Marine in October 2008. Three codexes that year.
So we got 3 Codexes for 2008
Then got 2 codexs in 2009 (Guard/Space Wolves)
Then got 3 for 2010 (Tyranids, Blood Angels, DE)
Then got 2 for 2011 (Grey Knights, Necrons) Sisters of battle
I think we're about due for a 3 year.
We got three, in a sense.
So the oldest 4th edition codex is Orks?
Nope Eldar got released 2006-2007 didn't they?
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Post by: SickSix
Wow, this is getting JUICY!
34906
Post by: Pacific
Do I get any apology from all the people who told me to "f*** off" when I said that Mantic making Forgefathers is a sure sign GW have got Demiurg on the way?
770
Post by: Kendo
The remark by Ghost21 is currious in referral to Demigurge as 'bizzarre', which makes me wonder if they will resemble a short, stocky, beared humanoid.
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Post by: agnosto
Kendo wrote:The remark by Ghost21 is currious in referral to Demigurge as 'bizzarre', which makes me wonder if they will resemble a short, stocky, beared humanoid.
It wouldn't match concept sketches...
770
Post by: Kendo
Well, a pciture is worth a thousand words.
Perhaps the brow feathers and heavily scaled skull plus its role is what lead to the 'bizzare comment.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Holy crap, substantial rumors! That concept art is pretty cool too. That's sooner than I thought Tau would come out, but great to hear. That also means two xenos races in a row? That's pretty far out.
50603
Post by: StormForged
*Sorry*
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
Let me remind everyone that "grain of salt" responses are spam and will be treated accordingly. Thanks ~Manchu
If only this had also applied to wish list posts too. I guess the "news and rumors" have all been posted already.
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Post by: notprop
On the basis that most things get cheaper in points while RRP goes in the opposite direction, I don't think that you will be disappointed!
30617
Post by: Emperors_Champion
Tau codex would be great. Just the hope alone gives me incentive to finish my current Tau projects.
3250
Post by: Prodigalson
The word "bizare" when used by Ghost21 wasn't in reference to the Demiurg, but to the other four armed crazy wild man concept art.
770
Post by: Kendo
I see. I appologize for perpetuating this misinterpretation.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Kendo wrote:The remark by Ghost21 is currious in referral to Demigurge as 'bizzarre', which makes me wonder if they will resemble a short, stocky, beared humanoid.
The "bizarre" refers to the other race, not Demiurg.
Pacific wrote:Do I get any apology from all the people who told me to "f*** off" when I said that Mantic making Forgefathers is a sure sign GW have got Demiurg on the way?
Aw, f*** off
Actually, the Demiurg rumour is older than Mantic's decision to add a gun sprue to their Fantasy dwarfs 
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Post by: agnosto
Kroothawk wrote:Actually, the Demiurg rumour is older than Mantic's decision to add a gun sprue to their Fantasy dwarfs
19754
Post by: puma713
Just give me Knarloc Cav and a Greater Knarloc, GW, and my wallet will open.
14863
Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Has Ghost21 been right about anything so far? His Necron rumors were a far cry from reality.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
Keep in mind everyone that the concept art shown so far pre-dates even the last Tau Codex.
770
Post by: Kendo
Ghost21's rumor have been more or less corroborated by Harry, who's word is prett reliable, at least in regards to the degree of completion, as evidenced by the summary posted by Kroothawk I believe.
19696
Post by: Gorlack
Am I the only Tau player actually hoping this rumour is false, so we won't get a codex three months before a new edition, again? And this time, we will (probably) be the last to have an "old style" soft cover, non colour codex instead of a shiny new codex...
Wasn't there a rumour around the Dreadfleet Games Day that Tau wasn't even started? And was it backed by more credible people than Ghost?
Cheers
Gorlack
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Post by: darkslife
I wouldn't worry too much - my army is about to get its first update since 3rd ed, and I can see the touches of 6ed already.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if 6ed is done and dusted, they are just doing the army books up for the forces they are going to put in the boxed edition.
Hell how funny would it be if it was necron v tau
770
Post by: Kendo
Well, Tau will likely have one of the last softcovers if the rumors of 40K moving to hardcover codexs is true. I get the feeling though that the nex codexs are being designed more with 6th edition in mind than fifth. I've read in various places that 6th is 'in the can' as it were, and that the recent codexs are forward compatable. I would not be suprised if some units that kind of feel hard to use may shine, and their lackluster performance in 5th will be reversed by the FAQ that is rumored to be included in the next edition. I'm sure Tau will be fine despite their 5th edition release.
38418
Post by: darkslife
Perfect example of 6ed quirkiness is necron destroyers having preferred enemy.
6ed apparently makes it effect shooting as well, 5th is only hand to hand, so a necron shooty unit having it atm is a bit wtf.
If tau get done the same way, expect the same sort of quirkiness.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Has Ghost21 been right about anything so far? His Necron rumors were a far cry from reality.
He has been right on Dreadfleet (being the first), but he has been wrong on several things as well (e.g. "I will run naked through Nottingham if Sororitas don't get a full codex this year"). So always good to have other sources as well.
8723
Post by: wyomingfox
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Has Ghost21 been right about anything so far? His Necron rumors were a far cry from reality.
Off the top of my head, he correctly predicted that the fall special release would be Warhammer Fantasy on the High Seas (ie Dread Fleet)...errr, what Kroot said .
He agreed with Stickmonkey that Necrons would be getting a big walker/Dreadknight-esque model prior to Yakfaces original leak many months ago.
Edit: Stick Monkey was the first to talk about the Necron walker
Alot of his rumors tend to center around models and design rather than rules
34906
Post by: Pacific
Kroothawk wrote:
The "bizarre" refers to the other race, not Demiurg.
Pacific wrote:Do I get any apology from all the people who told me to "f*** off" when I said that Mantic making Forgefathers is a sure sign GW have got Demiurg on the way?
Aw, f*** off
Actually, the Demiurg rumour is older than Mantic's decision to add a gun sprue to their Fantasy dwarfs
Haha ! (cry )
I meant that the Forgefather release news was evidence that GW had something similar up their sleeves for the Demiurg, seeing as everything that Mantic has done in its KoW range has got an equivalent force in WFB.
21196
Post by: agnosto
I'm more inclined to believe that Mantic's decision is more a poke to GW's eye about retconning squats and all the nerd rage that old decision garnered.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
agnosto wrote:I'm more inclined to believe that Mantic's decision is more a poke to GW's eye about retconning squats and all the nerd rage that old decision garnered.
Actually, Mantic has many fans of 2nd edition times, including Alessio. Therefore the rules, the squats, the Gorkamorka Ork cars.
752
Post by: Polonius
Yeah, dont' forget that the oldest 4th edition books carried over pretty well into 5th, or at least weren't made too much worse by the transition.
DA were bad then, and are still bad.
Orks were amazing, and are still very good.
Chaos was more or less mono-build, and is currently... pretty much the same.
Daemons were a fiddly army, but clearly were built with 5th edition in mind (assault/defensive grenades).
Those books were hurt more by later codices than the switch to 5th edition. Now, early 4th edition books like Tau and Eldar... well, they didn't do as well.
48604
Post by: templarsandorks?
I would say the tau along with BT need the update (preferably before 6th ed so they come out sooner)
or am i being greedy
21196
Post by: agnosto
I think BT just need some pricing and equipment updates and could benefit from the WD treatment since they were always designed to be a CC assault focused army. DA, Eldar, Tau need more than a few tweaks.
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Post by: InventionThirteen
Was considering tau for my next army choice. Hopefully we don't all have to wait a long time for the new 'dex.
I'd like to see a new craftworld codex first however.
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Post by: timetowaste85
darkslife wrote:Perfect example of 6ed quirkiness is necron destroyers having preferred enemy.
6ed apparently makes it effect shooting as well, 5th is only hand to hand, so a necron shooty unit having it atm is a bit wtf.
If tau get done the same way, expect the same sort of quirkiness.
If this is true, I hope Black Templars NEVER get redone Plasma pistols that get PE and won't get hot 99% of the time, for CHEAP costs?! Hello assault squads. Dakka Dreads that get to re-roll? Oh yeah...Oh, and assault cannon termies/cyclone missile launchers. Man, I'll be in heaven. GW, please don't update my book now if the PE rumor is true
31981
Post by: Pyro-Druid
InventionThirteen wrote:Was considering tau for my next army choice. Hopefully we don't all have to wait a long time for the new 'dex.
I'd like to see a new craftworld codex first however.
No, anything but this. We're a specialist army, even written with the next edition in mind (as the last one was), the transition will likely harm us notably more than others. Tau I think could go one way or the other, you seem to have a fairly core set of special rules over the entire army so you should be ok, but that being said with the rumors new races banning to the greater good I think you're likely to start leaning to the Eldar side of things. BT on the other hand... they're a SM chapter, GW aren't gonna do anything that will considerably hinder them. So all that said, I'd like 6th ed released next, but as that's stretching it, slip a MEQ codex or two in before it, then Tau/Eldar next.
42646
Post by: Korraz
agnosto wrote:I think BT just need some pricing and equipment updates and could benefit from the WD treatment since they were always designed to be a CC assault focused army. DA, Eldar, Tau need more than a few tweaks.
Oh, gods, no. The BT book works fine. Leave it at that, or make a new one, but a WD codex would only mess things up horribly.
20698
Post by: ArmyC
I have 5000 points of fully painted Tau that I have never played.
I look forward to the new codex whenever it arrives.
Plus I think it is silly to argue the difference of being released 3 months before 6th or 3 months after.
It is going to be the same book either way.
41743
Post by: JoeyHeadwounds
I was just looking through the Tau HQ list on GWs site and noticed that all of the HQ choices except for the Tau Crisis Battlesuit Commander are listed as no longer available. I don't know if it means anything nor do I claim that it does, just thought it was interesting and that someone might want to know...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
They might be getting a re-do in Failcost. It would make sense to remove them if there's none left, and then bring them out in a few months time like the wave of Eldar things that's about to hit in two weeks.
14863
Post by: MasterSlowPoke
The Finecast Ethereal is also marked as unavailable; I'd figure this is just a site error. Tau aren't due until at least February, I doubt they'd stop selling the models now.
15739
Post by: Highland_Piper
I've gotten SO tired of drop pods or Teleporting Chaos that I don't even let my Fire Warriors out of their transports. I've had no difficulties with Eldar or Tyranids, however SM, CSM, or DE (new codex) forget it I can't get a dang thing done against them. They just close in too quickly with fast vehicles, drop pods or Teleporting while using icons to home in on.
I certainly wish GW would just release WHF until the 40k 6th edition was out then release new codices. I'm almost done ranting.
Tau next? I hope so as long as it will fit within the 6th edition rules like some are saying. Go Priority Targeting as a main feature! Yeah epic fail.
As for unavailable models I just checked the GW website Nov. 1 at 07:36 and the only thing is that Finecast models are Due to high demand, each Citadel Finecast product is limited to five (5) per customer.
Other than that all Tau are available to order in the UK GW website.
I agree I'd like to see a rewrite of the Tau allowing them to actually use the Mont'ka and Kauyon in play. Right now the best way for me to play is to bunch everyone in one corner focus all their fire on one squad at a time while the Crisis Suits do all the work. Granted my dice rolls suck.  As for the Ethereal I see no reason to ever field them right now.
The last thing I want to see is Close Combat Tau. CC Alien allies fine, but not Tau.
Anyways I started to collect Space Wolves and packed my 18 Crisis Suits away until the new Codex.
48291
Post by: Stormtrooper520
I heard the next army to be updated was Black Templars
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I heard the next army to be updated was Black Templars
33586
Post by: Cerebrium
My (SPECULATED) idea is Tau > DA > 6th > Chaos > Eldar > BT.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
I'm thinking more...
Tau > 6th edition > Chaos Legions > DA > Eldar > BT or Sisters
This matches up with the rumour that 6th edition's box would involve Chaos and Dark Angels.
Of course this is all pieced together from various bits and an accidental slip of tongue from a manager in a recent conversation.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Some statements by ghost21:
ghost21 wrote:Demiurg would prompt me to start a whole army based around them.
Well, if you insist: 1 HQ, 1 troop and possibly 1 other unit.
The preliminary rules make Demiurg equal to banshees in combat?... without the scream thing though.
OK, one more: the Demiurg ancients, think of them as cranky old wise men who saw the imperium in its infancy. They had seen the Eldar come and go, and thought it was another decadent empire... though they normally take hundreds of years to make a decision... the tau have something special the demiurg like
(standard demiurg have 2 options)
It is probably BT next.
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Post by: Sasori
So, it looks like Black Templars are next then? Cant' say I'm surprised.
27214
Post by: IPS
:(
Makes me sad...
But yea if there is one army that deserves a release more than any other, it's the templars.^^
4183
Post by: Davor
Sasori wrote:So, it looks like Black Templars are next then? Cant' say I'm surprised.
BT will not be released untill the MMO is released.
7637
Post by: Sasori
Davor wrote:Sasori wrote:So, it looks like Black Templars are next then? Cant' say I'm surprised.
BT will not be released untill the MMO is released.
Is this your personal Speculation? or do you have something else to back it up?
41743
Post by: JoeyHeadwounds
H.B.M.C. wrote:They might be getting a re-do in Failcost. It would make sense to remove them if there's none left, and then bring them out in a few months time like the wave of Eldar things that's about to hit in two weeks.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:The Finecast Ethereal is also marked as unavailable; I'd figure this is just a site error. Tau aren't due until at least February, I doubt they'd stop selling the models now.
Well, Ive looked at every product in the Tau range of products and they all come up with the message Availability: No Longer Available Except for the Tau XV88 Broadside Battlesuit which states This product is expected to despatch in three to four weeks and the Tau Crisis Battlesuit Commander which states This product is expected to despatch in two to three weeks
Fine cast could make since for some items, such as the metal Vespids. As for the rest?
Edit: Must have been an error with the system or something like that... Most items are now showing the usual "will ship within..." status.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
Davor wrote:
BT will not be released untill the MMO is released.
People said the Tomb Kings would come out when WAR released their Tomb Kings expansion bit - it never did. In fact they didn't come out for close to 4 years later.
Don't assume a MMO will = army release. Dawn of War did not accelerate any codex releases nor did any other games!
34906
Post by: Pacific
Kroothawk wrote:Some statements by ghost21:
ghost21 wrote:Demiurg would prompt me to start a whole army based around them.
Well, if you insist: 1 HQ, 1 troop and possibly 1 other unit.
The preliminary rules make Demiurg equal to banshees in combat?... without the scream thing though.
OK, one more: the Demiurg ancients, think of them as cranky old wise men who saw the imperium in its infancy. They had seen the Eldar come and go, and thought it was another decadent empire... though they normally take hundreds of years to make a decision... the tau have something special the demiurg like
(standard demiurg have 2 options)
It is probably BT next.
That's awesome news Kroothawk.
From the amount of rumours kicking around, you have to think that the Demiurg are a nigh-on certainty now? Although has anyone divulged any information on them other than Ghost21 (who I believe mentioned the previous rumour about them having already been completed?)
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Post by: StormForged
I doubt Tau will be coming out until next summer, after 6th edition releases. Not including Fantasy Army Book releases I think the order is going to be:
Black Templar > Eldar > Chaos+Dark Angels > Tau
Black Templars and Dark Angels would be simple adjustments to points and maybe some better special rules or clarification of those rules. Eldar need some work, but not to the extend of a complete overhaul. Chaos will probably be worked on extensively if the 6th ed starter box rumor is true. Tau are the ones that need a complete reworking from cover to cover, so I don't really see them getting done in the near future. Maybe a WD article like the sisters got to hold us Tau players over until the real thing comes out.
But that's just my .02 cents.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
StormForged wrote:Maybe a WD article like the sisters got to hold us Tau players over until the real thing comes out.
I was actually thinking we might get a WD codex/article just prior to sixth edition to tide us over so they can hammer us with marine crap for 2 years before a real release.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Please keep in mind that ghost21 has been spot on with Dreadfleet, but also completely off with the predicted Sororitas Codex and models this year.
So while he gives us a heap of rumours, not all turn out to be correct and most still wait for confirmation next year. This includes the Demiurg rumours that all originate from him AFAIK.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
I think that they're going to have to do Tau before 6th edition. Tau are the only book left with a retinue option. I doubt they want to clutter their main rulebook with a rule that's going to be obsolete in a few months.
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
A Dwarf by any other name is still a Squat in 40K (apologies to Shakespeare). The Demiurg were even described as "squat" in a recent BL novel by Gav Thorpe and I'm sure that's hardly a coincidence, but rather a deliberate wink and nod. GW is teasing everyone with this and background fanatics (fanboys?) can argue about it all they want, but what's old is new again the past couple years in 40K and this is a way of inserting "space dwarves" back into 40K without actually having Squat armies. What they are called or what their background is these days is incidental to the idea of reinstating Space Dwarves in 40K. Yeah, Squats.
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Post by: Kazwulf
MasterSlowPoke wrote:I think that they're going to have to do Tau before 6th edition. Tau are the only book left with a retinue option. I doubt they want to clutter their main rulebook with a rule that's going to be obsolete in a few months.
Better than the BT and their Chaplain + Servitor rules ... Indepedent Character + 3 Servitors, which as a group function as an independent character and can be added to other squads as such.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Kroothawk wrote:Please keep in mind that ghost21 has been spot on with Dreadfleet, but also completely off with the predicted Sororitas Codex and models this year.
So while he gives us a heap of rumours, not all turn out to be correct and most still wait for confirmation next year. This includes the Demiurg rumours that all originate from him AFAIK.
Actually...after reviewing some of your old posts (March 2011). The original rumor of Tau Demiurg came from Warseer's stinger989 followed shortly after by Warseer's StraightSilver.
Kroothawk wrote:Well here the full quote with full credit:
stinger989 wrote:
stinger989:
Well after posting some GK rumors i have returned with some more interesting tid bitz.
Squats will be returning with the TAU!
depending on printing problems it is possible they will be slated for November 2011 moving the Necrons back
Squats will be a troop choice and have t4 s5(with battle axe) 5+ 5+FNP(intoxicating save) and SAP but will be allowed to charge 6" instead of rolling
There is a squat HQ but no info yet.
Kroot are still in as well as the firewarriors
Character unlocks crisis suits as troops and they have gotten much better.
hopefully more to come in the upcoming months. Enjoy
Well, I believe that Fire Warriors and Kroot are still in the next Codex, but good to have a confirmation
At the moment, I don't believe that Squats as part of the human Imperium are standard forces and generals in a Tau force. Most certainly they are Demiurgs, who are established Xeno allies of the Tau (only possible if Mat Ward writes the background -> Xenos Inquisition army)
But IMHO, dwarves with axes are a poor substitute for the cc unit I was waiting for: Catgirls in school uniforms with katanas
Here another source from Warseer:
StraightSilver wrote:
StraightSilver:
Well I was about to groan at "yet another squat" rumour but this does very scarily reinforce a rumour I have heard regarding Tau too, so I won't laugh this one off just yet.
I have been hearing since last year that Tau would get a big release in Q4 2011.
They will be getting plastic vespid, pathfinders and new battle suits and crisis suits (most likely recut sprue with all weapon options in plastic).
And I have heard that they were getting a new race as a unit type.
I never in a million years thought it would be squat/demiurg but this would be awesome if it's true.
The only thing that gives me pause is that I was told Tau would be getting new minis, but not necessarily a new Codex, so could the rules for these be in White Dwarf?
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Post by: Therion
Indepedent Character + 3 Servitors, which as a group function as an independent character and can be added to other squads as such.
Same as Space Wolf heroes with 1-2 wargear Fenrisian Wolves then? Not a problem.
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Post by: agnosto
SM honor guard and command squad are also retinue AFAIK.
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Post by: Brother SRM
agnosto wrote:SM honor guard and command squad are also retinue AFAIK.
They're not. They're special squads you can buy, but they're just squads of dudes.
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Post by: FrozenSoul80
Needs more Squats.
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Post by: Anung Un Rama
BrassScorpion wrote:A Dwarf by any other name is still a Squat in 40K (apologies to Shakespeare). The Demiurg were even described as "squat" in a recent BL novel by Gav Thorpe and I'm sure that's hardly a coincidence, but rather a deliberate wink and nod. GW is teasing everyone with this and background fanatics (fanboys?) can argue about it all they want, but what's old is new again the past couple years in 40K and this is a way of inserting "space dwarves" back into 40K without actually having Squat armies. What they are called or what their background is these days is incidental to the idea of reinstating Space Dwarves in 40K. Yeah, Squats.
So we're reallygoing back to the whole Dwarfs in Space thing? What about that awesome Demigurg picture from the Ordo Xenox fluff book?
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Post by: astrocat
While I cannot pretend there is any army in 40k I am less inclined to buy in to, the possibility of new xeno species appearing across the battlefield must be a good thing.
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Post by: CpatTom
stinger989 wrote: Catgirls in school uniforms with katanas
That would be hilarious. Maybe Robot Catgirls. With Fusion Katana's. (friends with shadowsun?)
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Post by: notprop
Anung Un Rama wrote:BrassScorpion wrote:A Dwarf by any other name is still a Squat in 40K (apologies to Shakespeare). The Demiurg were even described as "squat" in a recent BL novel by Gav Thorpe and I'm sure that's hardly a coincidence, but rather a deliberate wink and nod. GW is teasing everyone with this and background fanatics (fanboys?) can argue about it all they want, but what's old is new again the past couple years in 40K and this is a way of inserting "space dwarves" back into 40K without actually having Squat armies. What they are called or what their background is these days is incidental to the idea of reinstating Space Dwarves in 40K. Yeah, Squats.
So we're reallygoing back to the whole Dwarfs in Space thing? What about that awesome Demigurg picture from the Ordo Xenox fluff book?
I don't think they would go back to the heavy metal Dwarf Bikers in space aesthetic that we had before. I would take the concept sketch shown as an indication of where they might head.
I do think that they will probably retain the relentless advance, big guns and ability to crack skulls that is common to dwarves in all genres.
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Post by: Therion
I'm not sure about the rest of you guys but I know a lot of 'Tau players' or Tau sympathisers that love the idea of anime style mechs and futuristic weapons and the imagery in 40K but completely dislike the rag-tag auxiliaries.
Plenty of people refuse to use Kroot and Vespid no matter how useful they might be, and if the rumours are true the Tau army will be even less about Tau and even more about a random collection of space monsters fighting happily as one. Dwarf bikers, Kroot carnivores with indian hats and weird gorilla mounts, flying bugmen and fishmen with pulse rifles and battlesuits get together and make an army! Hurray!
I mean they could've gone another way too. When they made Tau they admitted that they were trying to decide between two new races which one to release, the Tau and the Kroot, and eventually came up with the idea of allying them together into the same book, and here we are now with all sorts of circus freaks joining the Empire.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
CpatTom wrote:stinger989 wrote: Catgirls in school uniforms with katanas
That would be hilarious.
Maybe Robot Catgirls. With Fusion Katana's. (friends with shadowsun?)
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Post by: notprop
Therion wrote:I'm not sure about the rest of you guys but I know a lot of 'Tau players' or Tau sympathisers that love the idea of anime style mechs and futuristic weapons and the imagery in 40K but completely dislike the rag-tag auxiliaries.
Plenty of people refuse to use Kroot and Vespid no matter how useful they might be, and if the rumours are true the Tau army will be even less about Tau and even more about a random collection of space monsters fighting happily as one. Dwarf bikers, Kroot carnivores with indian hats and weird gorilla mounts, flying bugmen and fishmen with pulse rifles and battlesuits get together and make an army! Hurray!
I mean they could've gone another way too. When they made Tau they admitted that they were trying to decide between two new races which one to release, the Tau and the Kroot, and eventually came up with the idea of allying them together into the same book, and here we are now with all sorts of circus freaks joining the Empire.
Racist!
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Post by: Chi3f
I just hope the new models are inexpensive
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Post by: Field Gen
Tau was my first army. I loved tau, Painting them and fielding them. Until I could not afford or even buy the tanks because of a gakky store and I lost 100% of my games for over two years straight. So than I got so sick of Tau being the worst fething peice of Crap army that has ever existed so I traded for Orks and Space Wolves and Now Eldar and Necrons.
Seriously. Name one GOOD thing about the tau codex other than that piece of crap tank with the rail gun that makes the army good? YOU CANT! Sure they have a good basic troop gun and a crisis suits are Decent but any good player and any half way decent rolls from a boyz squad of orks. Terminators, Eldar Swooping hawks or Rangers or basicaly anything in any codex out there can wipe the floor with every model the Tau has to offer.
So a revamp of the codex is in DIRE need to make it good.
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Post by: Pyro-Druid
Markerlights when done well can be devastating. Would be nice if you could actually reasonably buy any of the drones with networked markerlight.
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Post by: Worglock
Highland_Piper wrote:
Anyways I started to collect Space Wolves and packed my 18 Crisis Suits away until the new Codex.
Funny enough, a local joke involves someone that came into our store and asked one of the staff members that has a Tau army how he would play them competitively.
Staff answer: I put them away and play Space Wolves.
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Post by: IPS
Field Gen wrote:Tau was my first army. I loved tau, Painting them and fielding them. Until I could not afford or even buy the tanks because of a gakky store and I lost 100% of my games for over two years straight. So than I got so sick of Tau being the worst fething peice of Crap army that has ever existed so I traded for Orks and Space Wolves and Now Eldar and Necrons.
Seriously. Name one GOOD thing about the tau codex other than that piece of crap tank with the rail gun that makes the army good? YOU CANT! Sure they have a good basic troop gun and a crisis suits are Decent but any good player and any half way decent rolls from a boyz squad of orks. Terminators, Eldar Swooping hawks or Rangers or basicaly anything in any codex out there can wipe the floor with every model the Tau has to offer.
So a revamp of the codex is in DIRE need to make it good.
Hm, I don't know what you are doing wrong, but krises suits in combination with markerlights,
some broadsides and a good kroot meatshield are one of the cheesiest armylists I know. 0o
You got so extreme fire power it's not even funny any more.. ><
If anything I'd say Tau are a bit on the strong side right now, they lack a bit of varity, but gameplay wise they are extremely good.
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Post by: SonicPara
IPS wrote:Hm, I don't know what you are doing wrong, but krises suits in combination with markerlights,
some broadsides and a good kroot meatshield are one of the cheesiest armylists I know. 0o
You got so extreme fire power it's not even funny any more.. ><
If anything I'd say Tau are a bit on the strong side right now, they lack a bit of varity, but gameplay wise they are extremely good.
Crisis Suits are limited as they are confined to elites and they are expensive to kit out in useful ways with only the Deathrain ( TL Missile Pod) being the only fairly inexpensive option though it lacks the rate of fire to fight infantry. On top of that Markerlights are only worthwhile on Pathfinders who are T3 4+ save infantry that require you to purchase a Devilfish, one of the most overcosted tanks in all of 40K. Not only does this suck up even more points it also makes Pathfinders a liability for Annihilation games as each unit is automatically bringing 2 easy killpoints to the field.
Broadsides are undoubtedly one of the best units in the book but even their mighty railguns aren't enough to save the Tau. Sure they pose a great threat to armor but the are next to useless against infantry and they are extremely expensive as well. They are very resilient but they can not single-handedly win the Tau a game. They also compete with the more versatile but extremely overcosted Hammerhead. Kroot walls are effective but again are points not being spent on productive units. An army shouldn't have to throw away points in the form of meatshield units simply to have a minute chance at surviving or possibly winning a game.
Yes the Tau do have some formidable fire power but everything is so over priced that they can't bring enough of it to survive. Newer armies like Dark Eldar are cheaper and can actually bring more mobility and firepower to the table than Tau, making the Tau obsolete in the only two categories that are supposed to be their strengths. Of course this is a general take on the many weaknesses of the codex and your local gaming scene could be ideal for the Tau. Such circumstances are very rare though and the Tau usually get crushed under charging close combat armies or beaten at their own shooting game by a more recent and more appropriately costed codex.
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Post by: IPS
True about the pathfinders, but it's about the same as with kroot,
you have to see how much damage the rest of your army can do because of them
and suddenly they will be effective.
Hm, you really do think krisis suits are expansive?
Yes 20p for a plasme rifle is quite much, but then again that unit can shoot at the enemy, without any returing fire!
(if you use cover and range limits... or kroot^^)
Not to speak about the commander!
Then you got the twin flamer, fusion blaster combination. Two guys in a squad.
30 casulties in one shooting phase? Not a big deal. A tank? Goes boom 90% of the time.
Name me another unit in the game that can do such a thing for 86 points.
Broadsides, yea that's true, they are snipers.
But then again once those transports and tanks are dead, the rest of the opposing army are sitting ducks...
I mean I have to agree with you that tau are extremely situational,
and there is a major problem with fast moving squads like jetbikes or nob bikers.
There are some really outdated point costs and units in the recent codex that simply make no sence...
And it is a quite repetitive army, there are really two or three setups that are good,
the rest will make you suffer crushing defeats...
But if you play this army the way it wants to be played, I would say it still is quite competitive.
Anyways, I will stop blabbring about tactics now^^
That's a release rumor thread after all.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
If Tau were truly competitive, people would be winning tournaments with them.
How often do Tau armies even place, since the start of 5th edition?
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Post by: gromrilfist
IPS the units are over costed and saturation of fire is not heavy enough. Add in auto-loss in melee theme and you have an incredibly uncompetitive force.
In a tournament setting you cannot consistently be competitive. At max you will have 22 suits (crisis/broadside). Only 10 of these should normally be on the table turn 1. DS the Crisis, to use fusions on tanks or plasmas and missiles on the cracked transports.
However if you opponent is mech heavy (or heaven forbid, Ork can wall) you can unload first turn and still have no way of thinning them enough for the auto-loss in melee to not cost you the game.
I have been, comparatively, very successful with them but its a fairly exhausting and uphill battle with the proliferation of Space Wolves and Orks. (atleast in my local meta)
Check out http://advancedtautactica.com/ for some really good indepth analysis of the current state of the Tau.
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Post by: Davor
Sasori wrote:Davor wrote:Sasori wrote:So, it looks like Black Templars are next then? Cant' say I'm surprised.
BT will not be released untill the MMO is released.
Is this your personal Speculation? or do you have something else to back it up?
Just personal speculation, like almost everyone else on here. Just putting 2 and 2 together. Yes I know GW doesn't make much sense, but it really wouldn't make much sense to release say Dark Angels when the MMO is coming out and it features Black Templar.
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Post by: warboss
Kilkrazy wrote:If Tau were truly competitive, people would be winning tournaments with them.
How often do Tau armies even place, since the start of 5th edition?
Agreed. There is a difference between a Tau player beating YOU consistently (as in IPS and not Kilkrazy) and the army being competitive. If you're the type of player who just tries to slowly come across the table on foot or advance conservatively while meched, you will be beaten by a properly tooled out AND played tau army (meaning max broadsides sitting on the edge of the board). The Tau right now have a single list that allows them to win against certain types of players (see above) as long as they start way in back of their deployment and then play keep away... a single tactic with a single build =/= competitive. The have almost no defense against lists that rely on early and/or accurate deepstriking (like drop pods, blood angels, greyknights, etc) or super fast moving armies with low cost transports (Dark eldar). They have no defense against psychic powers which have gotten a huge boost in 5th edition (and were specifically nerfed in 3rd and 4th... the eras when the current codex was made and came out). They have no defense against reserve tactics like outflanking and deepstriking variants. They have only a single "alternate" build unlocked by a special character and it actually sucks since it restricts your broadside choices. The tau are most decidedly NOT competitive at the moment. If you're having trouble dealing with the tau, you simply need to change your tactics and possibly your army unit choices. Automatically Appended Next Post: IPS wrote:
Hm, you really do think krisis suits are expansive?
Yes 20p for a plasme rifle is quite much, but then again that unit can shoot at the enemy, without any returing fire!
(if you use cover and range limits... or kroot^^)
Not to speak about the commander!
Then you got the twin flamer, fusion blaster combination. Two guys in a squad.
30 casulties in one shooting phase? Not a big deal. A tank? Goes boom 90% of the time.
Name me another unit in the game that can do such a thing for 86 points.
You need to redo the math as I suspect you're taking what might have happened to you in a few lucky shots as what actually happens around the world statistically... it's not. If you're using 86pts, you've got two regular crisis suits with twin flamers and a fusion blaster. If you're getting 30 casualties each turn with two twin linked regular flamers, you must be getting at least 40 guys under those two templates which is quite unlikely unless your opponent normally fields his squads perfectly in base to base in a tear drop formation that fits exactly under the flamer template. You're either incredibly exaggerating or your local tau player keeps facing incredibly stupid opponents. As to the tank going boom, lets use a simple rhino (not even a tough tank) as the target. 2 guys at BS3 (since that's what you costed out) x 1/2 to hit = 1 hit... 35/36 pen rolls at 6" will either glance or pen (for simplicity of math I'm counting them both as pens).. 35/36... and only 1/2 the rolls on the damage chart will make the tank go "boom". So.. instead of the 90% you said, it's actually 49% rounded up... IN PERFECT CONDITIONS AGAINST A LIGHT TANK!! Add in cover saves, taking the shot at more than 6" so you don't get the 2d6 pen from fusion gun, and tanks with armor greater than a measely 11 and you get real world conditions that are nowhere near as good as you're claiming. Please don't exaggerate your own experiences with a good and/or lucky opponent or your own miscalculation of the tactics needed to face tau as what happens in general. Tau had some fluff discrepancies (like veteran Fire Warrior caste troopers in advanced mech suits having the same BS as a guardsmen with an iron sight on his lasgun) but were well costed for early 3rd and 4th edition... back when rhinos were 50pts, marines were 15 without grenades, and other people's plasma overheated on 1's and 2's when rapid fired (which made the cost of tau plasma worth it). Times and the game have changed in the intervening years.
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Post by: IPS
Yea I know that I was exaggerating.^^
I was just a bit bugged by all those people whing about the Tau beeing so utterly weak right now,
that they allways get their asses kicked, because that's simply not true.
Let's just hope Tau get some untis to survive close quarter fights and some variety in their "competitive" tactics.
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Post by: Kroothawk
ghost21 wrote:I've seen less boxy crisis suits, experimental suits for characters, and a special sniper suit.
Well they are completely new suits so the ankles are fixed.
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Post by: Enigma Crisis
Ooooo I wish he could have taken a pic of them. I cant wait to see them and for the codex to come out.
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Post by: Avrik_Shasla
Tau need an update....I'm sorry, Imperial guard and space marines easily out shoot them, them being the army that is suppose to be shooty.
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Post by: SonicPara
Avrik_Shasla wrote:Tau need an update....I'm sorry, Imperial guard and space marines easily out shoot them, them being the army that is suppose to be shooty.
The thing that really gets me as a Tau player is that the Dark Eldar I play as well far outshoot them, cost less, and have far more mobility. My army that is entirely based on 2/3rds of the game (assault phase is excluded as JSJ is the only thing you do during it) is beaten in both relevant thirds by an army with far lower points-costs across the board. Yes this is oversimplifying the comparison between Tau and Dark Eldar but just seeing how powerful my Dark Eldar are in shooting and then owning the army that is supposed to be the most elite shooting force in the game is somewhat frustrating. I still can't wait for a Tau update, I want them to be relevant so badly. I think their dramatic aesthetic differences from the rest of 40K is a huge asset and it makes them especially fun to see on the table.
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Post by: tkrettler91
im going to call that it will be black templar. then eldar then dark angels, then tau, then chaos. then hopefully orks!!!
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Post by: -Loki-
Avrik_Shasla wrote:Tau need an update....I'm sorry, Imperial guard and space marines easily out shoot them, them being the army that is suppose to be shooty.
They're meant to be a fire and maneauvre army, not an out and out slugfest army. Engage at range, using Devilfish to move Firewarriors around and suits and tanks to provide harder hitting support. In a straight up slug out shooting war, they're not meant to outshoot Guard. That the Guards thing.
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Post by: SonicPara
-Loki- wrote:They're meant to be a fire and maneauvre army, not an out and out slugfest army. Engage at range, using Devilfish to move Firewarriors around and suits and tanks to provide harder hitting support. In a straight up slug out shooting war, they're not meant to outshoot Guard. That the Guards thing.
You are correct. The problem with Tau right now is that Dark Eldar can execute the same playstyle far better while still being flexible enough to play a dozen different ways as well. It is too early to judge but at first glance the new Necrons seem to perform the same task better than Tau as well. You are right that they were never meant to be a stand-and-shoot army but even played properly they are still overcosted and underpowered to the point of obscurity. I greatly anticipate a new codex so that I can again successfully bring the Greater Good to those who lack such purpose.
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Post by: Lord Poison
so either dark angels, a cool chapter that I have little interest in
or Black Templar, a cooler chapter, I still don't have much interest in...
I donno, I'd rather start Heavy Gear or something then play another edition of 40K
(I certainly hope for fantasy a codex that needs it gets updated, but it will probably be demons or vampires or lizardmen and get made by mat ward and be everywhere like last edition)
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Post by: HeatWave
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TAU
We have been waiting too long for the greater good...
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Post by: Lord Poison
I do hope they go in a more anime direction, I can see thats what they were trying to do, but put too much of their own idea in there and it didn't work properly.
I'd play tau in a heartbeat if I could convert the suits to resemble some of my favorite macha animes, well let me rephrase that, make it a tad easier.
I know they're not, but one can dream
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Post by: Nagashek
Kilkrazy wrote:If Tau were truly competitive, people would be winning tournaments with them.
How often do Tau armies even place, since they came out as an army?
Fixed.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Nagashek wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:If Tau were truly competitive, people would be winning tournaments with them.
How often do Tau armies even place, since they came out as an army?
Fixed.
4th Edition.
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Post by: Nagashek
3rd, actually. And they never placed, probably because late 3rd edition was dominated by IW and Seer Council Armies (one GT had IW as 7/10 of the top armies, with two Seer Councils and a Marine army in the mix.) and 4e was mostly BA Drop Pod spam with a few other FotM builds. I can't be certain Tau ever placed in the top 20 or 30 in a GT. 5th, ironically, is one of the kindest editions for Tau, though I think 4th was best for them.
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Post by: Defeatmyarmy
I would definitely hope so, if they make tau as balanced as the new necrons, there could be a tau revival in tournaments.
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Post by: Darkness
Scott Simpson won a few GTs with Tau in 4th
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Post by: FrozenSoul80
Lord Poison wrote:I do hope they go in a more anime direction, I can see thats what they were trying to do, but put too much of their own idea in there and it didn't work properly.
I'd play tau in a heartbeat if I could convert the suits to resemble some of my favorite macha animes, well let me rephrase that, make it a tad easier.
I know they're not, but one can dream
They need to go less in an anime direction and more of a Feudal-Japan-in-space direction.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Yeah, "moar anime!" is the last thing Tau need. I don't want an army of Gundams or Evas...
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Post by: Enigma Crisis
FrozenSoul80 wrote:Lord Poison wrote:I do hope they go in a more anime direction, I can see thats what they were trying to do, but put too much of their own idea in there and it didn't work properly.
I'd play tau in a heartbeat if I could convert the suits to resemble some of my favorite macha animes, well let me rephrase that, make it a tad easier.
I know they're not, but one can dream
They need to go less in an anime direction and more of a Feudal-Japan-in-space direction.
^ This. I reall like the Feudal Japan style they have in their fluff makes them more unique and that the come from a Eastern Side of the Universe even paralleled that.
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Post by: FrozenSoul80
I actually saw a picture a few weeks ago of all the things a Tau Firewarrior carries with him, but I can't for the life of me find it. He looked very Space Samurai and very awesome. I certainly hope that's the direction GW will take the Tau. It would fit better with the whole "grim dark" thing GW tries to push.
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Post by: Ledabot
You can’t beat feudal Japan for some really cool fluff. They may have suits, but that’s not all I want to love them for. I actually got into tau because of the XV25s sleek lines, and I didn't even know what anime was back then. I so really hope they make them good, because I want my little XV25s to beat as good as they look.
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Post by: Pacific
I really hope the new suits follow the FW direction, I think the ones below (XV9) look just so awesome (taking the anime influence without going to 'Soda pop' lengths, which I think some people fear is going to happen).
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Post by: Sidstyler
Ledabot wrote:You can’t beat feudal Japan for some really cool fluff. They may have suits, but that’s not all I want to love them for. I actually got into tau because of the XV25s sleek lines, and I didn't even know what anime was back then. I so really hope they make them good, because I want my little XV25s to beat as good as they look.
What I really liked most about Tau were the vehicles, the devilfish/hammerhead in particular. It's one of the things that inevitably pushed me over the edge and into collecting Tau, lol. The basic troops looked okay (obviously sci-fi but with a more "modern" look than a lot of the other races), alien auxiliaries sounded cool to me as a nice contrast to the clean, modern Tau troops (giving me the chance to paint something different without collecting a different army), but I really liked the idea of an army with a lot of vehicles in it and Tau didn't disappoint. Space Marines were too boxy, Eldar were too...alien, I guess. Tau were a good compromise, curved and sleek while still looking like tanks.
The suits were always the weakest models in my opinion. I liked the idea, and they're a good, chunky size for the price (although they've probably gone up since then), but they're too boxy and don't really look like they "fit in". The XV9's are definitely a step in the right direction (and look just a tad influenced by District 9 if I'm not mistaken), the only thing I don't like about them are the knees and the weird feet/toes. If GW redesigned the XV8's/88's and made them look more like this, assuming the codex wasn't nerfed to all hell and practically unplayable (kinda like the state Tyranids are currently in) I would be all over that gak. I'd throw all my suits in the garbage and buy like 20 new ones...unless the price is hiked up even more, anyway. I'm hoping for packs of three a la killa kans.
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Post by: -Loki-
Sidstyler wrote:assuming the codex wasn't nerfed to all hell and practically unplayable (kinda like the state Tyranids are currently in)
The hyperbole is strong with this one.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Sorry, I just don't see the point of your post, other than pointing out the obvious and being off-topic. So I exaggerated a little bit, I guess that's a sin on Dakka Dakka now considering all the calling out people are doing now every time I post. That's my fething style (I guess...lol I dunno, this is just what I vomit out on my keyboard honestly) and if you don't like it that's what the "ignore" button is for. Go ahead, you won't be the first!
Anyway, as much as I exaggerate there's still a hint of truth in it and I think you all know it. Tyranids, when compared to other 5th edition codices, just don't measure up. A lot of units/upgrades got more expensive that didn't need to be, a lot of new units don't really work out as good as they were intended or just have too much competition in their FOC slot to be worth taking, which results in a lot of lists looking pretty similar, etc. Add in the fact that GW practically nuked their effectiveness with the FAQ, ruling against their favor on almost every rules question and even going out of their way to change how some things worked that people weren't confused about in the first place, they lost even more options and are now a boring mono-build codex that is still missing models for essential units long after the fact. Not that the Tyranid codex had many viable builds in the first place.
I didn't give up on Tyranids immediately, but I saw people trying to make them competitive and it wasn't working. Once everyone else started deciding the codex sucked I was with them and put it all on eBay to fund my Dark Eldar instead, which I think I'm a lot more happy with anyway. But I'm still bitter because I like Tyranids and I've tried twice now to start an army, but I keep giving up on it before really getting anywhere and it's frustrating. No one likes playing with boring, crappy armies, especially boring, crappy armies that present numerous difficulties in actually fielding them since so many units don't have models to represent them yet: tervigons, tyrannofexes, harpies, several characters, lots of bits like stranglewebs and swords/whips for warriors/guard, etc. Funnily enough the only units that got models are ones you'll never use, like pyrovores and venomthropes.
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Post by: Nagashek
Sidstyler wrote:Ledabot wrote:You can’t beat feudal Japan for some really cool fluff. They may have suits, but that’s not all I want to love them for. I actually got into tau because of the XV25s sleek lines, and I didn't even know what anime was back then. I so really hope they make them good, because I want my little XV25s to beat as good as they look.
What I really liked most about Tau were the vehicles, the devilfish/hammerhead in particular. It's one of the things that inevitably pushed me over the edge and into collecting Tau, lol. The basic troops looked okay (obviously sci-fi but with a more "modern" look than a lot of the other races), alien auxiliaries sounded cool to me as a nice contrast to the clean, modern Tau troops (giving me the chance to paint something different without collecting a different army), but I really liked the idea of an army with a lot of vehicles in it and Tau didn't disappoint. Space Marines were too boxy, Eldar were too...alien, I guess. Tau were a good compromise, curved and sleek while still looking like tanks.
They had me at "Hammerhead," too.
44374
Post by: CpatTom
The ignore button works both ways.
I liked the idea of superior ranged firepower in mobile packaging, coupled with the "greater good", and i guess a sleeker overall look (no text books taped to their armor, etc).
Anyway, any updates on the soon probably part?
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
Sidstyler wrote:. Tyranids, when compared to other 5th edition codices, just don't measure up. A lot of units/upgrades got more expensive that didn't need to be, a lot of new units don't really work out as good as they were intended or just have too much competition in their FOC slot to be worth taking, which results in a lot of lists looking pretty similar, etc. Add in the fact that GW practically nuked their effectiveness with the FAQ, ruling against their favor on almost every rules question and even going out of their way to change how some things worked that people weren't confused about in the first place, they lost even more options and are now a boring mono-build codex that is still missing models for essential units long after the fact.
Look, there's nothing wrong with the Imperial Guard mate.
Wait.
You were talking about Tyranids. My bad.
((Hmmmm, same author. Anyone else raise their eyebrows at that? And before ya'll call me a hater look below. CSMs and Tyranids. The company hates me for no reason ))
36213
Post by: Earthbeard
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Look, there's nothing wrong with the Imperial Guard mate.
Wait.
You were talking about Tyranids. My bad.
((Hmmmm, same author. Anyone else raise their eyebrows at that? And before ya'll call me a hater look below. CSMs and Tyranids. The company hates me for no reason ))
So it's all your fault 
44219
Post by: FrozenSoul80
Get him!
50341
Post by: Hox
Please?
1
50603
Post by: StormForged
I'd place the new Tau release after the 6th Edition. After Necrons its probably going to be Black Templars and then their going straight into Chaos with (what seems to be) both Chaos Legions and the Chaos Marine Codex, just to fit it all in before new editions release. Dark Angels will probably be squeezed in their as well.
Afterwards it would probably be Tau or Eldar.
But Tau do need a bit of heavy editing in both points and models and rules. Vehicles need a cut in points across the board and the Hammer Head and Piranha need a better variety of armaments. If GW bucks the trend and they don't make a flyer plastic, then they'd probably let the hammer heads be squadroned.
And a better variety of ranged weaponry also. Markerlight rules also need to be updated and revised.
44219
Post by: FrozenSoul80
Standard troops also need a way to quickly duck out of combat.
50341
Post by: Hox
FrozenSoul80 wrote:Standard troops also need a way to quickly duck out of combat.
Or a stand and shoot similar to WHFB
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
After the Valkyrie, the Storm Raven, the Dark Eldar flyer and the Necron thing a flyer for Tau seems pretty obvious.
Then again, so seemed plastic Rhinox Riders
47785
Post by: Lord Poison
Enigma Crisis wrote:FrozenSoul80 wrote:Lord Poison wrote:I do hope they go in a more anime direction, I can see thats what they were trying to do, but put too much of their own idea in there and it didn't work properly.
I'd play tau in a heartbeat if I could convert the suits to resemble some of my favorite macha animes, well let me rephrase that, make it a tad easier.
I know they're not, but one can dream
They need to go less in an anime direction and more of a Feudal-Japan-in-space direction.
^ This. I reall like the Feudal Japan style they have in their fluff makes them more unique and that the come from a Eastern Side of the Universe even paralleled that.
if they do it right, which they rarely do
I just wanted an anime themed army, bad enough I have to play against armies I can't stand but I at least want to paint models I can stand and I'd love to paint something anime-esque and with rules not done by mat ward
(even if I can just convert them to be more animeish, at least easier then it is now, then that would be great)
49848
Post by: Conrad Turner
Hox:
No, No, No, No, No.
Never, in fact!
And while we're at it, No Zoids either!
Yes, I do believe that Tau can be modelled and painted as an Anime themed army, but their ascthetic is generally more rounded than the picture you posted. I would not have done the Tau army I have seen here with the big heads - despite the amazing transfer on the Devilfish - although I think it has been done very well.
Give me enough time to get home at Christmas and use my airbrush and you may see some Tau vehicles and battlesuits with a white/two tone grey/black urban camo scheme with a little Patlabor twist to it. (No, that does not mean building a Patlabor kit, adding 3 Tau Rail Cannon to one of the arms, and calling it a 'Tau Titan'! )
/ 
35071
Post by: Enigma Crisis
Lord Poison wrote:Enigma Crisis wrote:FrozenSoul80 wrote:Lord Poison wrote:I do hope they go in a more anime direction, I can see thats what they were trying to do, but put too much of their own idea in there and it didn't work properly.
I'd play tau in a heartbeat if I could convert the suits to resemble some of my favorite macha animes, well let me rephrase that, make it a tad easier.
I know they're not, but one can dream
They need to go less in an anime direction and more of a Feudal-Japan-in-space direction.
^ This. I reall like the Feudal Japan style they have in their fluff makes them more unique and that the come from a Eastern Side of the Universe even paralleled that.
if they do it right, which they rarely do
I just wanted an anime themed army, bad enough I have to play against armies I can't stand but I at least want to paint models I can stand and I'd love to paint something anime-esque and with rules not done by mat ward
(even if I can just convert them to be more animeish, at least easier then it is now, then that would be great)
I understand where you are coming from I love painting my Tau. I would love more options for the crisis suits to make diverse suits.. Some samurai looking ones or anime/gundam looking ones. Though we might still have to customize them over the top to make them more anime-like.
50341
Post by: Hox
Conrad Turner wrote:Hox:
No, No, No, No, No.
Never, in fact!
And while we're at it, No Zoids either!
Yes, I do believe that Tau can be modelled and painted as an Anime themed army, but their ascthetic is generally more rounded than the picture you posted. I would not have done the Tau army I have seen here with the big heads - despite the amazing transfer on the Devilfish - although I think it has been done very well.
Give me enough time to get home at Christmas and use my airbrush and you may see some Tau vehicles and battlesuits with a white/two tone grey/black urban camo scheme with a little Patlabor twist to it. (No, that does not mean building a Patlabor kit, adding 3 Tau Rail Cannon to one of the arms, and calling it a 'Tau Titan'! )
/
Aww. I love the armored core games. I would love to have a suit building mechanic though in terms of the suits, like a light/medium/heavy that allow you to carry certain weapons and a certain amount of them. No stealth suits, you take a light suit and you pay for the stealth add on. I see the amazing levels of customization on lots of other units in other armies so I dont think its too much to ask for. Every upgrade has bits to represent (That look good. not "hey look heres a box on top of a suit that looks like a box with legs, now you get ____"). I'd really like to see them go heavily into this. I know its never going to happen though, instead they will add a bunch of new species as auxiliaries and release new predesigned suits like FW is doing now.
49848
Post by: Conrad Turner
Sadly true, Hox. Would really like to see more of a "Here are the tools to build your army the way you see fit from a fewer number of starting blocks, but way more options, now go get busy" attitude from GW. Just not going to hold my breath, that's all. Of course, you'd still have to limit things on what weapons things could have, otherwise you would get people saying "OK, I have a squad of 10 light battlesuits with the stealth upgrade and sniper rifles with 72" range, Str9, AP4, Large Blast, Assault 3 which can be fired even if they move. Personally, I like painting an army with a theme and not just using colour to make my models stand out from other peoples. Now I am starting to get into actually playing, this will affect my choice of what models to buy as well. Seems most people are not that enthusiastic about Necron Deathmarks for example, but I can't wait to get them to add a little difference to how my force will play.
Yes, I think that the battlesuits could have gotten more attention from GW, and bemoan the fact that FW have produced much better looking suits. But at least that gives us the chance to model something our way that 'counts as' one of their suits, which at least gives a few more options. And although I understand that - especially when the moulds for the Tau were designed - there are limitations as to what and how you can make as a commercially viable plastic kit, these are much less than they were when the Tau were origianlly released.
We can only hope that some more care and thought will be taken over the re-release of Tau when they get their new codex, as has just happened with Necrons recently. I may not agree with all of the decisions that the models have gone in, but at least it is a step up from where they were. (with the exception of the flayed ones, of course! )
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Post by: Brother SRM
FrozenSoul80 wrote:I actually saw a picture a few weeks ago of all the things a Tau Firewarrior carries with him, but I can't for the life of me find it. He looked very Space Samurai and very awesome. I certainly hope that's the direction GW will take the Tau. It would fit better with the whole "grim dark" thing GW tries to push.
I think it's in the 5th ed hardback rulebook under the Tau page. I'll take more feudal Japanese influence over anime mecha robots kawaii desu that some posters want. The Forgeworld suits are a nice compromise.
50341
Post by: Hox
Conrad Turner wrote:Sadly true, Hox. Would really like to see more of a "Here are the tools to build your army the way you see fit from a fewer number of starting blocks, but way more options, now go get busy" attitude from GW. Just not going to hold my breath, that's all. Of course, you'd still have to limit things on what weapons things could have, otherwise you would get people saying "OK, I have a squad of 10 light battlesuits with the stealth upgrade and sniper rifles with 72" range, Str9, AP4, Large Blast, Assault 3 which can be fired even if they move. Personally, I like painting an army with a theme and not just using colour to make my models stand out from other peoples. Now I am starting to get into actually playing, this will affect my choice of what models to buy as well. Seems most people are not that enthusiastic about Necron Deathmarks for example, but I can't wait to get them to add a little difference to how my force will play.
Yes, I think that the battlesuits could have gotten more attention from GW, and bemoan the fact that FW have produced much better looking suits. But at least that gives us the chance to model something our way that 'counts as' one of their suits, which at least gives a few more options. And although I understand that - especially when the moulds for the Tau were designed - there are limitations as to what and how you can make as a commercially viable plastic kit, these are much less than they were when the Tau were origianlly released.
We can only hope that some more care and thought will be taken over the re-release of Tau when they get their new codex, as has just happened with Necrons recently. I may not agree with all of the decisions that the models have gone in, but at least it is a step up from where they were. (with the exception of the flayed ones, of course! )
True. As for the tiny stealth suits with cannons, thats as simple as not giving big guns to the small suit sizes. Give them miniguns or an equivalent or some sort of flak gun that does more hits the closer you are to the enemy. Railguns can be taken as shoulders on the medium size and shoulders/arms on the large. Prohibit spam with cost.
44374
Post by: CpatTom
Hox wrote:Conrad Turner wrote:Sadly true, Hox. Would really like to see more of a "Here are the tools to build your army the way you see fit from a fewer number of starting blocks, but way more options, now go get busy" attitude from GW. Just not going to hold my breath, that's all. Of course, you'd still have to limit things on what weapons things could have, otherwise you would get people saying "OK, I have a squad of 10 light battlesuits with the stealth upgrade and sniper rifles with 72" range, Str9, AP4, Large Blast, Assault 3 which can be fired even if they move. Personally, I like painting an army with a theme and not just using colour to make my models stand out from other peoples. Now I am starting to get into actually playing, this will affect my choice of what models to buy as well. Seems most people are not that enthusiastic about Necron Deathmarks for example, but I can't wait to get them to add a little difference to how my force will play.
Yes, I think that the battlesuits could have gotten more attention from GW, and bemoan the fact that FW have produced much better looking suits. But at least that gives us the chance to model something our way that 'counts as' one of their suits, which at least gives a few more options. And although I understand that - especially when the moulds for the Tau were designed - there are limitations as to what and how you can make as a commercially viable plastic kit, these are much less than they were when the Tau were origianlly released.
We can only hope that some more care and thought will be taken over the re-release of Tau when they get their new codex, as has just happened with Necrons recently. I may not agree with all of the decisions that the models have gone in, but at least it is a step up from where they were. (with the exception of the flayed ones, of course! )
True. As for the tiny stealth suits with cannons, thats as simple as not giving big guns to the small suit sizes. Give them miniguns or an equivalent or some sort of flak gun that does more hits the closer you are to the enemy. Railguns can be taken as shoulders on the medium size and shoulders/arms on the large. Prohibit spam with cost.
Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)
So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.
Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)
Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.
It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!
37667
Post by: tkrettler91
idk i think those suits look too cartoony
50603
Post by: StormForged
CpatTom wrote:Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)
So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.
Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)
Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.
It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!
Don't forget to mention complicated: 'Taking Suit A gives you options B and C, which gives you access to Wargear 1, 2, 3, and Banana. If you take Banana your suit now takes the characteristics of Suit 'Purple' but cannot take options D and Z, but you can take more Banana's for your suit if you choose to. If you don't take the Banana for Suit A then you can upgrade your Suit to the Woof Variant, and can select Wargear 20, 33, and 945...' Reading rules -> Brain Hemmorage -> Death of Reader Instead of over-developing Suits, why not improve the stats on the ones we have now? An Exta Toughness +1 here and maybe a Ballistic Skill +1 there, maybe a bonding knife equipped, throw in some more support weapons and presto! More variety without the splitting head-aches of diversity!
44374
Post by: CpatTom
StormForged wrote:CpatTom wrote:Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)
So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.
Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)
Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.
It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!
Don't forget to mention complicated: 'Taking Suit A gives you options B and C, which gives you access to Wargear 1, 2, 3, and Banana. If you take Banana your suit now takes the characteristics of Suit 'Purple' but cannot take options D and Z, but you can take more Banana's for your suit if you choose to. If you don't take the Banana for Suit A then you can upgrade your Suit to the Woof Variant, and can select Wargear 20, 33, and 945.' Instead of over-developing Suits, why not improve the stats on the ones we have now? An Exta Toughness +1 here and maybe a Ballistic Skill +1 there, maybe a bonding knife equipped, throw in some more support weapons and presto! More variety without the splitting head-aches of diversity!
Tau players are smart. They can figure it out. Pick pilot level. Ws Bs L I Pick Suit size. T W Sv Pick Weapon and Support systems. Done.
31445
Post by: march10k
Kilkrazy wrote:If Tau were truly competitive, people would be winning tournaments with them.
How often do Tau armies even place, since the start of 5th edition?
You're asking the wrong question. The real question is "how often are tau armies fielded by skilled players since the start of 5th edition?"
Sure, all else (generalship, list-fu, and a scenario that favors neither side, etc) being equal, a tau army is less likely to win than, say, blood angels or IG. Yet...more than 3-4 different codices, let alone 3-4 builds, show up and place well. Frinstance, at my most recent ard boyz semis, tau advanced to nationals. The difference in skill between any two players is almost always going to exceed the difference in the competitiveness of their armies.
In some ways, the current meta even favors tau. Everyone's geared up for/worried about mechanized armies. Well, tau don't do mech very well, and most anti-mech weapons systems don't AP battlesuits and lack the volume of fire to obliterate infantry, so they benefit from a fundamental mismatch between what they're bringing and what most people are planning to have to deal with. At the same time, most battlesuit weapons are pretty decent anti-transport options without necessarily having been intended for that purpose.
Yes, they face an uphill fight against deepstriking armies, but that's a well understood threat, and one for which even a mediocre tau general has a plan. In the meantime, the more likely scenario is transport rush, and most tournament tau armies can address 7+ light vehicle targets on turn one...that may not wipe the table clean of mech, but it certainly makes a dent, and with good prioritization, it's enough.
Where tau really suffer in tournament settings isn't in relative killiness. Winning isn't the problem. It's all those secondary and tertiary sources of points that kill them. Like my deathwing, they seem to get a lot of "well, I win the primary objective, so that's a W, but my opponent got the secondary and we drew on the tertiary" or whatever. It's a margin of victory problem. They can't seem to win comfortably enough to divert resources away from the primary victory condition.
37728
Post by: IdentifyZero
It's going to be Black Templars next, simply because they are the oldest Imperium codex now and GW won't leave them so out-dated. As it stands, I won't deny, my Black Templars with the errata and the ability to take more weapons in squads, veteran skills, min/max troops, machine spirit vindicators, predators; all the armory access is probably going to go. I just hope they keep the Black Templars as a unique marine force and do not codexify them, I am hoping they do something with the Sword Brethren kind of like Space Wolves, Wolf Guard. Either way, I'm sure the Templars will be getting the update. We don't need it in terms of power, but it would be nice to get access to some 5th edition stuff eventually... lol That is why for the time being my Templars are on the shelf to avoid having to fix them too much when a new codex releases!
24512
Post by: SonicPara
march10k wrote:Where tau really suffer in tournament settings isn't in relative killiness. Winning isn't the problem. It's all those secondary and tertiary sources of points that kill them. Like my deathwing, they seem to get a lot of "well, I win the primary objective, so that's a W, but my opponent got the secondary and we drew on the tertiary" or whatever. It's a margin of victory problem. They can't seem to win comfortably enough to divert resources away from the primary victory condition.
In a world where 25-33% of the players are bringing 15+ missile launchers to the table (Missile Launchers that wound a suit on a 2, ignore armor, and cause instant death) and everyone else has something equally absurd (psyrifleman, darklight spam, meltavets) it is the tertiary objectives that are the Tau's problem, sure. Tau are in the toilet for a number of reasons, all of which were already mentioned. Overcosted, underpowered, constricting rules (Pathfinder devilfish especially), obsolete "sergeant" system, and countless more. Yes, Tau can win games. So can the new Sisters. Just because an army can win games against the right opponent/right build, it doesn't mean that they are appropriately balanced with the other armies in the game.
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Post by: Hox
StormForged wrote:CpatTom wrote:Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)
So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.
Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)
Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.
It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!
Don't forget to mention complicated:
'Taking Suit A gives you options B and C, which gives you access to Wargear 1, 2, 3, and Banana. If you take Banana your suit now takes the characteristics of Suit 'Purple' but cannot take options D and Z, but you can take more Banana's for your suit if you choose to. If you don't take the Banana for Suit A then you can upgrade your Suit to the Woof Variant, and can select Wargear 20, 33, and 945...'
Reading rules -> Brain Hemmorage -> Death of Reader
Instead of over-developing Suits, why not improve the stats on the ones we have now? An Exta Toughness +1 here and maybe a Ballistic Skill +1 there, maybe a bonding knife equipped, throw in some more support weapons and presto! More variety without the splitting head-aches of diversity!
It wouldn't be too bad. Look at something as simple as the Dark Eldar Raider. What do they get? Disintegrator cannon, shock prow, torment grenade launchers, enhanced aethersails, retrofire jets, chain snares, grisly trophies, envenomed blades, splinter racks, night shields and flickerfield. All that is JUST for a single dedicated transport. All of them effect some aspect of the vehicle more gameplay wise than different weapons or the like. Giving a player 3 chassis as separate codex entries (Light=Fast Attack, Medium=Elite, Heavy=Heavy Support) and a nice little list of guns to choose from wouldnt be too difficult. Maybe allow adding jets to the mediums make them fast attack and an HQ choice that lets you take light as troops. Thats not mind bustingly complicated (at least to me). I love building custom mechs in games. This just lets me feed two addictions at once.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
IdentifyZero wrote:It's going to be Black Templars next, simply because they are the oldest Imperium codex now and GW won't leave them so out-dated./quote]
Oldest Codex, full stop. I still don't see Templars being updated before 6th though, Tau, Dark Angels and Eldar need it more than we do. In fact, I hope with all my heart that we do not receive an update before 6th. Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
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Post by: SonicPara
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
Yeah, and it is going to happen to us again.
25852
Post by: ajefferism
SonicPara wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
Yeah, and it is going to happen to us again.
Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!
24512
Post by: SonicPara
ajefferism wrote:Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....
I've heard that and I really hope it is true. I think balance only makes the game better. Had a slugfest between my Dark Eldar and a friend's IG last night that was just wicked fun because both codices are so powerful.
DarkStarSabre wrote:What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!
Because we all know that CSM is terrible right now. They are in the same boat as Eldar; constricted to only a select few strong builds but said strong builds are still competitive. Tau and pre-release Necrons were on an entirely different boat; constricted AND awful. Necrons jumped ship for a better standing but now the Sisters came aboard so the Tau aren't lonely.
35071
Post by: Enigma Crisis
SonicPara wrote:ajefferism wrote:Allegedly, the codexes since Tyranids have been designed with 6th edition in mind. Some of the things in Grey Knights match up with the rumors of tiered versions of Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, etc etc.
Also, allegedly there will be more robust FAQs (like the ones that were released earlier this year) once 6th is launched. We shall see....
I've heard that and I really hope it is true. I think balance only makes the game better. Had a slugfest between my Dark Eldar and a friend's IG last night that was just wicked fun because both codices are so powerful.
DarkStarSabre wrote:What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!
Because we all know that CSM is terrible right now. They are in the same boat as Eldar; constricted to only a select few strong builds but said strong builds are still competitive. Tau and pre-release Necrons were on an entirely different boat; constricted AND awful. Necrons jumped ship for a better standing but now the Sisters came aboard so the Tau aren't lonely.
But I want the 'crons back. The sisters are too rude and don't want to hear about the Greater Good you could at least drop a necron or give him a lot of Oil and he would "listen" you.
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Post by: dbsamurai
Prodigalson wrote:Tau don't need the update that Necrons and DE have gotten, nor will they get it. They need a new codex for rules, but they already have eight plastic kits, and very little still in pure metal and a few metal hybrids.
If you think Tau don't need an update clearly you've never tried to play using:
Shadowsun, Ethereals, Honor Guard Fire Warriors, Aun'Va, Crisis Team Bodyguards, Stealth Suits, Shield Drones, Marker Drones, Gun Drone Squadrons, Sky Ray Missile Defense ships, Vespid Sting Wings, Kroot Carnivors, Krootoxen, Kroot Shapers, Pathfinders, Markerlights, Sniper Drones, Broadsides, Ion Cannons, Rail Rifles, Human Auxileries, Seeker Missiles, or Cyclonic Ion Blasters.
Were you keeping track? that leaves regular crisis suits, firewarriors, a Crisis commander, and devilfishes as viable. Did I mention all four of those also have problems with them? ( FW are 1-2 points too expensive for their statline, crisis suits are too large and in too small squads with horrible BS for their cost as a fire support unit, and are too expensive, Shas'els are the only viable option over shas'os because the latter are too expensive, and devilfishes lack proper fire support for their cargo, essentially carrying three of the same weapons as their firewarriors only with worse range, AND they can only carry firewarriors. kinda like a ghost ark except we don't get to bring our dead GEQ back to life every phase)
The rest have severe detrimental statlinges that need to be corrected, and we need new alternatives to fill our slots. Broadsides are too expensive and lack an INV necessary to make them worth fielding (and their even bigger than regular suits) same as marker and shield drones (the cost not the inv save), honor guard, ethereals, shadowsun, aun'va, sky rays, and vespids all have contradictory statelines (being built to get into close combat but sucking at it, for example with the stingwings). Stealth suits Gun Drones Crisis Bodyguards Kroot (and their associates) sniper teams and human auxileries lack to options and are too expensive for what they do (I'd pay 30 points for a firewarrior with a 3+ save if it also had a plasma rifle. then it's really be worth paying almost as much as a terminator for one) Ion cannons, Rail Rifles, Pathfinders, non integrated markerlights, and cyclonic ion blasters are all outclassesd by better options within the codex (for example, rail rifles are stupid to take since they can only be taken by pathfinders, and you only waste points on a stagnant unit like pathfinders because you need more markerlights, and pathfinders themselves are a waste because you can get the same markerlights but also have JP and Stealth by taking them with stealth suits)
I play tau heavily. I use all of these units. They're fun to use yes, but are they competative? not by any stretch of the imagination. They're all overcosted (a symptom of being an older dex) and they're all outclassed by current armies. You CAN do a lot of crazy things with all our rules, but in truth, half our codex is units NO ONE EVER TAKES. To the point where you can spot a N008 Tau player if you see such units in their list. Hell I could do a codex breakdown right now about how each unit should be changed to make it viable without being OP (in fact I have, I made a list using such an idea when playing with my friends, and immediately units like vespids and Kroot had a purpose besides "show up turn one, kill something, die turn 2") Every tau player knows we need a new dex. the only army who needed 1 more was crons and now they got it. so i hope and pray that at last the dark Ward Mathew with his one Dex to rule them all will finally update our gakky old as gak dex to one that we can at least take to play with and not leave half the models on the shelf.
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Post by: Grakmar
DarkStarSabre wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!
Wait... are you proposing the question (where you'd say "What is a Chaos Space Marine player?"), or are you selecting the next answer (where you'd say "I'll take Chaos Space Marine players for $500, Alex!")?
And, Jeopardy questions are all even hundred dollars 200/400/600/800/1000 and 400/800/1200/1600/2000 in double jeopardy since 2001!
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Post by: Hox
Grakmar wrote:DarkStarSabre wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being obsolete the entire next edition because you were released late-ish in the last blows, just ask any Tau player.
What is a Chaos Space Marine player for $500 Alex!
Wait... are you proposing the question (where you'd say "What is a Chaos Space Marine player?"), or are you selecting the next answer (where you'd say "I'll take Chaos Space Marine players for $500, Alex!")?
And, Jeopardy questions are all even hundred dollars 200/400/600/800/1000 and 400/800/1200/1600/2000 in double jeopardy since 2001!
BOOM! Get Jeopardowned. Anyways...
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Post by: docbrown
tau need a new dex badly
from what most people tell me is tau were a top 4th ed army but got nerfed by the changes in 5th ed
As much as i want a new codex now i also dont want to be nerfed by a new edition again.
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Post by: Happygrunt
To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.
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Post by: docbrown
Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.
i can imagine that
I belive T3 armies do better at lower points epecially ones that have average model count.
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
I would like to see that customization for tau suits, however currently GW seems to think anything remotely more complex then getting a squad w/ Sargent and PF too complicated. Example 4th edition nids codex to 5th edition, where did the biomorphs go? Anyway I think they should give the tau a ton of new stuff, from suits to guns to alien auxiliaries. In the fluff currently they have a bunch that are missing, or so I've heard. Like Nisscar, Naga, and Deriug. plus add more Kroot options cause why not please those people who want to run a kroot mercenary list, is not like they're aren't Kroot to fit every slot.
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Post by: Brother SRM
Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.
Tau can win with a good general and a good list, but most units in the codex aren't usable in an environment that's competitive at all. I'm generally a player, and I can see Tau will have trouble in most situations right now. They and Sisters need new rules and models really badly.
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Post by: docbrown
I want tau to become an army that's about the options you take not what you put hem on.
I want the most access to usrs and other unique abilities through upgrades.
I want to choose between jump and jet pack
I want to choose stealth field generators
The one thing that has always struck me is that tau vehicles use the same frame. They just add different options. Why not make the army like that. I buy a frame for 60. Add front armour for 10. Add a rail gun for 40. Add a d pod for 20(ya guys we can't complain about costs while a d pod Is 5 pts)
What if I could add boosters to crisis suits or stealth or anything really. Give us 5 hard points but only 3 work for weapon systems. Let us make incredibly different units with our suits.
And for god sakes fix the fire warrior
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Post by: Sidstyler
Happygrunt wrote:To be fair, I am pretty sure Tau took 1st at a 1250 tournament held at the Seattle Bunker.
Placing well at one tournament is meaningless, it proves nothing. In order for an army to be considered "competitive" it has to place like that consistently, and they don't.
In all honesty though that's probably just because people are bored with Tau and playing with them isn't fun anymore. A good Tau player could probably take them to a tournament and do okay, but it's so frustrating trying to play with them because everything you do has to be perfect, you can't make any mistakes. Even a tiny mistake at deployment could cost you the game. Also, there's only really one good list, and playing with the same exact list for years straight can get kinda old.
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Post by: SonicPara
docbrown wrote:ya guys we can't complain about costs while a d pod Is 5 pts
Of course we can complain. Disruption Pods are the only thing in the book that are undercosted. Literally every other unit/vehicle/weapon/wargear is overcosted.
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Post by: docbrown
No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up
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Post by: Kilkrazy
docbrown wrote:tau need a new dex badly
from what most people tell me is tau were a top 4th ed army but got nerfed by the changes in 5th ed
As much as i want a new codex now i also dont want to be nerfed by a new edition again.
I don't know what "most people" you have been talking to.
Tau have never been a top army in any edition. In 3rd and 4th they were reasonably competitive in the hands of a good player, but less competitive than a stronger codex army in the hands of the same player.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Yep. This sums Tau up. Any army can be good in the hands of a reasonably good general.
But some armies can be good in the hands of a reasonably incompetent general.
Tau are not one of those armies.
Sure, someone could theoretically take Tau and with perfection place top in half a dozen things.
But then they could take Space Wolves and do so much more.
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Post by: SonicPara
docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up
Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.
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Post by: IPS
Yay, finally somebody got the thing with tau right!!! XD
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Post by: docbrown
SonicPara wrote:docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up
Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.
again you are missing the point
read what i say
i am explaining that Dpods need to go up
not that other costs need to stay
i even listed lower cost points
but you saw one sentence and took it out of context
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Post by: Prodigalson
Tau were a top army at the close of 4th edition. Scott Simpson won multiple tournaments, got a perfect battle point score at one of them. I won the Big Waaagh at the close of 4th and scott got 2nd at the same event(120 people if I remember correctly). Tau scored 1st and 2nd respectively. I can't think of anyone ever that has gotten a perfect battle score at a big tournament besides him.
If you knew what you were doing with them at the close of 4th they were one of the best codex's in the game.
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Post by: CpatTom
docbrown wrote:SonicPara wrote:docbrown wrote:No it was areference to we need cost drops but understand dpods must go up
Of course they need to, that is why I referred to them as "undercosted." It is just that Disruption Pods do not make up for everything else in the codex. Yes, they need to come up in price but almost everything else needs to come down in cost dramatically.
again you are missing the point
read what i say
i am explaining that Dpods need to go up
not that other costs need to stay
i even listed lower cost points
but you saw one sentence and took it out of context
You two are disagreeing to agree.
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Post by: docbrown
Lol yep
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Post by: Bolognesus
CpatTom wrote:StormForged wrote:CpatTom wrote:Exactly. The 10 man force would be neat, except when you lose one, you just lost 10% of your force. Limit hard points like they do on the suits now, make some weapons cost more hardpoints. Size limit particular weapons to suit sizes, and supports for things like stealth become less effective the larger the suit they are on.
Small, med, large suit sizes. Each with basic stat modifiers. Different level pilots with different stats.
3 Points on Small
4 on Med
5 on Large
1 Point spot optional for Jet packs. (Heavy weapon systems limiting this option by auto filling) (Maybe allow an extra point on an upgraded Jet Pack to increase the viability of those short range suit variants)
So, maybe rail rifles run two points on a small. You could put together a small stealth sniper suit but he would lose his mobility, or make him a mobile sniper platform, so no stealth.
Fusion gun, Advanced Jet pack Small. Get in range for melta, get back to some semblance of safety (maybe, haha)
Go heavy, get some plate guns, but limited mobility. Options to go Accurate, or Armored. Etc.
It would probably be difficult to balance. That (balance) I see being the major impediment to a system like this, but think about all the different builds!
Don't forget to mention complicated:
'Taking Suit A gives you options B and C, which gives you access to Wargear 1, 2, 3, and Banana. If you take Banana your suit now takes the characteristics of Suit 'Purple' but cannot take options D and Z, but you can take more Banana's for your suit if you choose to. If you don't take the Banana for Suit A then you can upgrade your Suit to the Woof Variant, and can select Wargear 20, 33, and 945.'
Instead of over-developing Suits, why not improve the stats on the ones we have now? An Exta Toughness +1 here and maybe a Ballistic Skill +1 there, maybe a bonding knife equipped, throw in some more support weapons and presto! More variety without the splitting head-aches of diversity!
Tau players are smart. They can figure it out.
Pick pilot level. Ws Bs L I
Pick Suit size. T W Sv
Pick Weapon and Support systems.
Done.
yes, Tau players can figure it out.
their opponents on the other hand, won't have the first clue what's facing them, even on second glance, if they're not quite experienced in playing against Tau. I think that's the bigger objection here.
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Post by: -Loki-
It has the same problem they had with the 4th edition Tyranid book.
Tyranid players had no problems making their own army and customising the statlines of all their guys. But for the opponent it was like reading a whole new codex every time they read a Tyranid players list before a game.
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Post by: docbrown
then just give us 5 variations each with there own entry each has different gear and upgrades available
also we need more options for tanks
rail head
ion head
skyray
for an advanced tech army we should get a little better then that
maybe plasma cannons
Suped up Missile pod array
Or the option to give drones ANYTHING
then put said drones on vehicles
combine with multi tracker and you got a scary vehicle.
Hmm Hammerheads with plasma cannon and 2 TL MP's
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Post by: CpatTom
-Loki- wrote:It has the same problem they had with the 4th edition Tyranid book.
Tyranid players had no problems making their own army and customising the statlines of all their guys. But for the opponent it was like reading a whole new codex every time they read a Tyranid players list before a game.
The pilot, suit, gear system is a wishlist, I recognize that, but its the dreams of more than a single build that galavant through my dreams.
Doesn't seem that bad in terms of complexity though. Honestly, some guys would think anything that isnt razorspam is complex cause its not spaez murhines.
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Post by: docbrown
Marines are the downfall of 40k
Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.
On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine
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Post by: warboss
docbrown wrote:Marines are the downfall of 40k
Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.
On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine
Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.
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Post by: juraigamer
My main army is tau, but I also have orks, chaos marines and iron hands.
Yet I get the most fun out of playing tau. My orks are simply walkers and boyz, my chaos is troops, infinite troops and obliterators, and my iron hands are bikers, landspeeders and vehicles.
Each army I have has a different theme, true my tau have battlesuits, but they need them. It's easier to win with any of my other armies, to the point where it's almost laughably easy in some cases, but with tau it's not that way.
I've been playing one 1850 list for 5 weeks at my FLGS and the two tables at my house. Undefeated vs blood angels, orks, grey knights, marines, CSM, and tyranids. I enjoy working for my win, and being rewarded with good tactics.
List here for those wondering, yes, I'm running an ethereal:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408114.page
That's not to say tau don't have their problems, as expressed in this thread already.
I just hope the new codex, when it comes, stays with the tau's core belief of no melee combat, and doesn't put ethereals in tau dreadknights or some crap.
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Post by: docbrown
warboss wrote:docbrown wrote:Marines are the downfall of 40k
Half the armies are the same just with different usrs.
On top of that the game is constantly littered with the idea that only another marine should be able to beat a marine
Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.
Don't get me wrong marines exist. But it can't be about the marines.
When I ask if fire warriors should be bs4 I shouldn't get an answer "tau are not space marines. Tau cannot shoot as good as a marine"
When I ask if tankbustas should get the tank hunters rule I shouldn't hear "but my devastators don't get tank hunters why should an ork"
Marines get puffed up like noones business. Marines are the standard. Meq is a unit we use to measure the worth of ones army. It's to much. Where is the t3 sv3 army. Why is there so many marine armies but 1 guard army
Ideally you should have a nice mix of armies not a clump of comparable ones.
I'd like:
2 guard codecies
Tau
Orks
Eldar
Dark eldar
Daemons
Chaos (the guard equivalent)
Chaos sm
Nids
Necrons
Grey knights
Blood angels
Space wolves
1 other sm chapter
Remove the generic sm codex. While I'm at it "why are almost all xenos t3
I get all sm are meq but you think we could have 1 alien with meq profile ?
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Post by: juraigamer
Rumor has it that 6th edition will have more of a xenos focus, could be wrong though.
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Post by: FrozenSoul80
I still don't understand why a Fire Warrior, one of the Tau elite, is weaker than an ordinary guardsman. Aren't ordinary guardsmen supposed to be meat shields?
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Post by: Thranriel
FrozenSoul80 wrote:I still don't understand why a Fire Warrior, one of the Tau elite, is weaker than an ordinary guardsman. Aren't ordinary guardsmen supposed to be meat shields?
Well tbh I dont care if its weaker (by this you mean lower Str right?). Since they try to stay out of mele combat it makes sense.
Elite trained gretchins arnt going to be the same as elite trained marines, and as such maybe the tau have to work to get their BS3, whereas guardsmen get this after little work and a large genetic component?
Im happy with the codex atm, I like most of the things in it. Sure I would love to field some vespids or kroot, or krootox that dont kill 3 things then get destroyed the next turn (but even infiltrating kroot as a short term distraction can be used wisely). I love firewarriors, maybe a bit expensive but not too bad. Suits are awesome, and the devilfish is pretty hardy, just not super powerful (and needs recosting).
As stated before there are alot of nul units in the codex, which for me makes it a bit stale.
When I pick up a codex I usually read the rules. I picked up DE: they can field tonnes of transports, run around and shoot, kill nearly anything with their guns and kick ass in close combat. Sure they have bad saves but you have a 10AV tank to protect you (for a bit). They also can run webway portal armies, how awesome is that? And wrack and grotesque armies with feel no pain and T4+? awesome!
Tyranids not the best but: Can run swarm armies, MC armies, tunneling Trygon armies, deep strike armies, and even get that nice tyrant rule to let a troop choice outflank. Sure they have alot of null units too but they have some interesting play options. And I love them.
Tau: Well... I can take alot of suits... or make a gunline with firewarriors. or.. make a bigger gunline? maybe change a broadside to a hammerhead?
The lack of options in battle really annoys me. I want to do multiple things, I want to shock my opponent or at least make him think, rather than "oh its tau, let me pull out my standard 101 tau killing list again".
New xeno's? I will prolly say no now then realise they are badass and say yes later lol.
p.s. I do not play competitively.
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Post by: CpatTom
warboss wrote:Marines are what keeps GW in business. Without them, GW would be occupying the same space as Vor: The Maelstrom and Warzone/Mutant Chronicles... the discontinued, OOP discount bin. While I agree that there are too many marine codicies, your statement is just plain incorrect. The idea of playing superpowered space knights in high tech armor has consistently fired up the imaginations and opened the wallets of people for 25 years.
Agreed, but I wont let the fact that they (sub par marine players) don't know what a Xeno codex is, let alone how they work, be a reason as to why a codex can't be a little more "complex".
Different (relevant) builds is good, different (army) play styles is good, different aesthetic is good, and different is what makes the factions interesting.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Thranriel wrote: Sure they have alot of null units too.
I'm not sure that the majority of my Elites choices is acceptable for the number of 'null' units
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Post by: Thranriel
DarkStarSabre wrote:Thranriel wrote: Sure they have alot of null units too.
I'm not sure that the majority of my Elites choices is acceptable for the number of 'null' units
Sorry I wasnt meaning to sound as if it was alright, jsut the fact that at least when I play my tyranids I have a few choices on how to run my army. They obviously have more choices in general then tau so its a bit easier to make a list, but for both codices I think having the large (proportionally) amount of null units is fairly awful.
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Post by: obsidianaura
Changes I'd like...
Firewarriors BS4 - they're well trained just like imp vets so why not?
Markerlights not heavy - they aren't heavy weapons they're laser pointers, there is no point this being heavy. Rolling to hit is enough.
Hammer-heads in groups 1-3 + Rear armour 11 - like guard have for their battle tanks
Somehow they need something better than what they have now for combat. Not sure what you can do as the character of the army would suffer if it was changed
6th Ed
Weapons to be rapid fire at 1/2 range not just 12 inches
There's other stuff I'd like to see changed too but really just this would be helpfull
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Post by: Totalwar1402
docbrown wrote: Where is the t3 sv3 army?
While I'm at it "why are almost all xenos t3
I get all sm are meq but you think we could have 1 alien with meq profile ?
Sisters of Battle. Honestly!
Are you being sarcastic? Necrons are the army with meq profile. Regular immortals have ws4 str4 t4 and a 3+ save only differing in that they have I2 and a better gun. Yes warriors went down but most have remained close to meq levels. This is because they are the ancient implacable death machines with technology we cannot begin to comprehend so they get tough troops.
Out of all non marine armies only two (SOB and Necrons) have regular access to 3+ armour and only the necrons have heavy armour with high st and t. This fits the established theme and background of each army as well as giving a lot of variety.
BTW have there been any rumours of people seeing Tau sculpts or plastics recently?
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Post by: docbrown
Please don't try and bypass the language filter, it's there for a reason. reds8n
I forgot about the necrons since they left shelves. Nm then.
Still. The whole thing still spats meq is better marines are meq. Play marines.
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Post by: Darkness
obsidianaura wrote:Changes I'd like...
Firewarriors BS4 - they're well trained just like imp vets so why not?
Markerlights not heavy - they aren't heavy weapons they're laser pointers, there is no point this being heavy. Rolling to hit is enough.
Hammer-heads in groups 1-3 + Rear armour 11 - like guard have for their battle tanks
Somehow they need something better than what they have now for combat. Not sure what you can do as the character of the army would suffer if it was changed
6th Ed
Weapons to be rapid fire at 1/2 range not just 12 inches
There's other stuff I'd like to see changed too but really just this would be helpfull
I disagree with the Firewarriors at BS4. They are guard equivalent not elite IG. There is a provision in the book already for BS4 Firewarriors. They are the elite IG equivalent.
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Post by: Thranriel
Firewarriors being BS4 and then allowing them 2 shots at max range (if 6ed rumor is right) being str 5 would be really painful.
As i've said in other posts I like the idea of synergy between units relying on markerlights to enhance this power. Now if fluff = game rules, then even then who knows how good in direct comparison without training a human is compared to a tau. Sure they have lots of training and technology, but if you have a serious problem (the tau not being able to focus as fast as a human) your accuracy will suffer.
BS3 is fine BS4 would make them cost more and tbh I dont want that.
But ofcourse its what the rules say and not what I want lol
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Post by: reds8n
We can but hope the tau do indeed see an update sooner rather than later.
As this is now more of a general discussion concerning the Tau, I'm going to move this to 40k general. I'm sure as/when the time comes there'll be a thread on the news and rumours board.
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Post by: march10k
SonicPara wrote:
In a world where 25-33% of the players are bringing 15+ missile launchers to the table (Missile Launchers that wound a suit on a 2, ignore armor, and cause instant death) and everyone else has something equally absurd (psyrifleman, darklight spam, meltavets) it is the tertiary objectives that are the Tau's problem, sure. Tau are in the toilet for a number of reasons, all of which were already mentioned. Overcosted, underpowered, constricting rules (Pathfinder devilfish especially), obsolete "sergeant" system, and countless more. Yes, Tau can win games. So can the new Sisters. Just because an army can win games against the right opponent/right build, it doesn't mean that they are appropriately balanced with the other armies in the game.
~eyeroll~ Gotta love the hyperbole. Every third or fourth player is a sit-and-shoot space wolf player....right. Funny...there's exactly one SW player in my whole county, and he doesn't spam 3x5 missile launchers. At Adepticon, I saw maybe 10% SW. At Ard Boyz semis, two out of 42, and I can't even say that they all played missile spam. You must suffer from really boring meta where you live.
Darklance spam is unthreatening when the lances are mounted in AV10 and AV11 skimmers and tau can wipe 7+ from the sky each turn (meaning that the nine lances mounted in ravagers are gone on turn one!), not to mention that they first have to hit, then wound, then get past a 4+ cover save, meaning that it takes about four of them to average one kill. Ditto the meltavets, except that they are impossible to spam and can't close fast enough to do anything useful.
I'm not saying tau don't need fixing, I'm saying that they're perfectly capable of winning 90% of their games, but they're just completely crippled in terms of being able to get to that next level of maxing out their battle points. Going 3-0 in a three round tournament isn't enough when 5-6 people do so, it's the ability to prevent your opponents from so much as contesting a table quarter, or the ability to claim at least four of a possible five objectives that counts at the top, and in that aspect, certain armies just don't have it...including tau, and that's a far greater obstacle to fielding them in a tournament than the weaknesses in their codex.
They're perfectly workable, though, and sometimes even brutal, in any format that goes by simple W-L-D, and therefore in friendly games.
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Post by: docbrown
Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
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Post by: nectarprime
Boy... I just got offered an awesome Tau army in trade for my GK.... but seeing these rumors I might have to pass on it and wait til new models/rules come out.
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Post by: ironhand45
Right after i start my tau
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Post by: Kilkrazy
docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
Game balance and differentiation.
Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.
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Post by: IPS
Indeed, I once was one of those guys that wanted bs 4.
Then I understood the Tau.
I mean it would just be really really boring if all units had bs 4
(or 5 with some cheap upgrades).
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Post by: Thranriel
yeah i mean think of the markerlights. The army works via synergy and markerlights are this synergy. if you give your baseline troops BS4, markerlights (one of the coolest things imo about tau) are fairly redundant. sure you can get rid of cover saves and things like that, but the main bonus for me anyway is the BS increase (I play against MEQs alot).
And to have this BS4 with a str 5 ap 5 weapon their price would increase even more. No thanks.
Its a tactical tool and should be kept that way.
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Post by: forruner_mercy
Samus_aran115 wrote:Prodigalson wrote:They have... when did that happen? I haven't seen any of the confirmed rumor posters say that.
There's only a couple armies left that need to be updated... Tau, BT, DA and CSM. It was only a matter of time. We have (under scrutiny) confirmation that CSM are getting released with 6th edition, and BT and DA are small releases that don't require much more than a codex. Tau are the only logical army to get get an update.
Eldar does too.
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Post by: docbrown
the thing is markerlights are not an easy thing to use
Pathfinders are squishy
Skyray's need them for themselves
Marker drones are expensive
Sniper Drones cost you a heavy slot
for what it takes to get decent markerlight quantity its kind of a problem. Not to mention that its quite easy to kill whatever brings them.
Besides im stating from a logical standpoint:
the army that relies soley on shooting low volume high strength shots should not have the same aim as an army that focus's on Low strengh High Volume shots.
Tau shoot 16% better than orks thats ridiculus.
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Post by: juraigamer
Ok I always see this stupid argument that tau fire warriors shouldn't be BS 4.
Guard conscripts are BS 2 and WS 2
Guard infantry are BS 3 and WS 3
Guard vets are BS 4 and WS 3
Infantry have +1 BS and +1 WS
Vets have +2 BS and +1 WS
Now Tau Fire warriors have BS 3 and WS 2
Note that tau fire warriors consistently train only for ranged combat, and nothing else. Note that they only have a +1 increase in BS skill.
Considering the fact that guard infantry training is most likely much shorter in length than tau fire warrior training, we can assume that tau should have BS 4, since no other increases in base skill occurred.
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Post by: FlammingGaunt
I think Tau should be kept at bs 3 but made cheaper. What I personally love to see is more Xenos. Like a Kroot HQ choice something along the lines of WS 5-6 BS 3-4 S 5 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3-4 LD 9 Sv 6-5+ with some nifty options. I think the kroot entirely aren't used to their potential I mean the kroot can get tougher, grow wings, ride knarlocs. I think kroot vets that can be modified would be an awesome edition. And I don't mean modified like CSM possessed. The thing is the Tau are an empire that tries to get everyone to join it the codex should reflect that by having more diversity.
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Post by: IPS
Gameplay =/= Backstory
Nuf said.
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Post by: docbrown
My argument is simple
Tau train only for shooting AND are bred specifically how to do so
That's 2 points for bs4.
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Post by: warboss
docbrown wrote:My argument is simple
Tau train only for shooting AND are bred specifically how to do so
That's 2 points for bs4.
Not true. They also take a 4 hour correspondence course in self defense called "How to hit like a little girl".
While I disagree that an average FW should be bs4, I do see the argument that EVERY suit (stealth, broadside, crisis, etc) be bs4. According to the fluff, aren't you supposed to have a minimum 8 years of combat experience before you're eligible to don a suit? Combined with the advanced tech in the suit, you'd think they'd be able to hit a target at 50 paces better than Joe Guardsmen, inducted 2 months earlier, with his iron sight lasgun.
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Post by: docbrown
I think base bs should be 4 all around because this is their purpose. They are bread to shoot. Just like the air caste is bred to pilot. They should all be bs4
Remember dire avengers have the same gun strength double shots and bs4 ws4
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Post by: iproxtaco
Shorter life-span, poorer eyesight, much of it is made up for with technology eg. Markerlight's and super accurate weapons. It's about balance. Internally, the basic trooper for their army is not a Super Soldier. They're the infantry linesmen. The Tau are all about ranged combat, BS3 is a good place to build up from. Shas'ui are the veterans, they could have BS4, increasing with rank. Making them BS4 pretty much makes Markerlight's redundant, especially with such high S weapons. Like Killkrazy said, they have a different play-style, they require coordination, this should stay the same.
Then of course you have external balance. Basic Firewarriors do not equal IG vets or Space Marines. For fluff purposes they should not have BS4, for game purposes they should remain at BS3 with appropriate changes. Asking for BS4, S5 rapid fire at half range and a reduced cost is extreme.
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
I also agree, standard fire Warriors should stay at BS 3 , but saying that they are the standard for the Tau military I also see a reasoning for battlesuits to be at a BS 4 average due to their reportedly Elite status, or allow them to HW targeting arrays for that boost.
And a Precedence for pathfinders being at BS 4 could be made if they were established as elite unit type, kinda like the IG stormtropers, and working in synergy with the other Tau units would make their markerlights more effective, therefore making the other tau better shots.
One thing I do hope to see in the next codex is more and varied upgrades for squads and hopefuly a reduction in point costs for some drones, namely marker drones.
Of course there are volumes of tweaks and additions we could wishlist for the Tau, but one thing I dearly hope they dont do..is remove the style of play that has developed for this army, one of the few races in 40k that truly needs teamwork to be at its best, with no one unit being the end all be all of the list.
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Post by: docbrown
But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites
I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4
I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.
Eldar are bs4. What makes them so good. Astartes are biomedically enhanced super soldiers. Tau are"genetically engineered". Keep in mind vets are also ws3 not 2.
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.
Like seriously. The etherals separated the tau castes into groups that would handle certain affairs. These groups would not cross breed in order to strengthen their purpose. Groups of these members commit their life to this purpose only. Does this sound like the production of your average soldier.
Marker lights serve to do more then Bs increase so it won't make them irrelevant.
Why is everyone so hard on the tau and short changing them. And please don't try to say "there not space marines"
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Post by: Phanixis
I find nothing wrong with Firewarriors being BS3 as long as the Crisis Suits are BS4, as pointed out by other posters, there is just no reason why veteran Tau Firewarriors loaded down with a tone of electronic systems would be BS3. I just hope that come the next codex, markerlights are integrated properly into the army, and made assault class weapons.
What I would like to see done to Firewarriors and other line troopers is allow them to carry you basic stock meltagun and flamer. I see no reason to deny these weapons to Firewarriors as such weapons would not encumber them, and we really shouldn't need elite troops and vehicles just to carry a basic meltagun around. This would free things like Crisis Suits and Piranha to equip proper heavy weapons.
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Post by: CpatTom
docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites
I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4
I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.
Fair enough.
Eldar are bs4. What makes them so good. Astartes are biomedically enhanced super soldiers. Tau are"genetically engineered". Keep in mind vets are also ws3 not 2.
Eldar were (if this wasn't retconned in the new Space Mummy Codex) actually genetically engineered, besides that they are completely devoted to what they do, and they have had a long time to practice. Tau aren't "genetically engineered" in any sense comparable to the actual genetic engineering that goes on in 40k. Yes, the big Tau tribes men with the best genes is selected to breed with the partners presenting the best traits; however, the Etherals arent getting all weird nazi science and making super Tau.
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.
Balance, although it may or may not be balanced now, that is why your FW cant shoot like vets.
Like seriously. The etherals separated the tau castes into groups that would handle certain affairs. These groups would not cross breed in order to strengthen their purpose. Groups of these members commit their life to this purpose only. Does this sound like the production of your average soldier.
If I seperate an advanced high school chemistry class into football postitions I may or may not have a very good team. Being separate doesnt make them good
Marker lights serve to do more then Bs increase so it won't make them irrelevant.
What if 6th reduces the amount of cover saves that are on the table? Then what do you use your markers for? Leadership? Cool, just give me more guys with BS 6 instead (Thats hyperbole).
Why is everyone so hard on the tau and short changing them. And please don't try to say "there not space marines"
Because they are blue, from the eastern fringe, and not Ultramarines.
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Post by: Backfire
docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites
I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4
I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.
Orks are shooty army with BS2. Tau are just fine with the current BS.
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Post by: docbrown
You have some gold points there
Counters
1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.
2 your chem team straw man thing is just invalid
3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.
4 so tau can't have high bs because 6th might make high bs's op. geez why can't a xEnos have something a marine has. Oh it might break thE game.
5 balance is achieved many ways. Making an army less effective then it should logically be is not the best of these.
6 while I'm AT it why are drones bs2 that's just dumb.
7 why should an army that relies on few high probability attacks be stuck with average rolls to hit. Is it that odd that a shooting focused army that is not gunspam guard can aim there few guns as good or better then a cc focused marine.
8 ass it stands tau are often a 4+ 3+ army. Why cant we be a 3+ 3+ army. Armies are supposed to be scary. If we can't spam 4+ 5+ enough to be scary why can we bring a few 3+3+. And a select few 2+2+ shots. Let marker lights be used for ld and cover only. No bs upgrades. That can be how tau are scary
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Post by: Brother SRM
docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.
Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.
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Post by: docbrown
Backfire wrote:docbrown wrote:But why can't the most advanced most Shooty focused army have bs5 elites
I'm not asking for a price drop if we're bs4
I'm asking for THE SHOOTING army to be better at shooting then the average.
Orks are shooty army with BS2. Tau are just fine with the current BS.
Orks are also the premier VOF army moron. Bs3 orks is truly terrifying.
Besides orks are bs2 because THEY BARELY AIM. Orks point and shoot for the satisfaction of shooting. Orks just haphazardly do things until they get results. That is not a good comparison.
Orks defiantly make sense at bs2
So 3 Shooty armies as an example
Orks 2 Ridiculous spam of fire with decent strength. Low hits high wounds
Guard 3 massive spam of low strength weapons. Average hits low wounds
Tau 4 small clusters of high power weapons. High hits high wounds
I really think tau fill a nice gap of high probability shooting with moderate numbers and profiles. Automatically Appended Next Post: Brother SRM wrote:docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.
Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.
As they are I hate markerlights. To me they are a dumb concept. I like the idea but the excursion is poor. They are on fragile inefficient units or they shackle other unts with other responsibilities. On a conceptual level the idea of the shooting army being unable to compare to non dedicated units is dumb.
I would prefer markerlights be used for things other then aim. Cover leadership deeps trikes missiles night fighting ect.
Side note. What if devilfish could take marker light?
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Post by: Brother SRM
I see nothing wrong with Devilfishes with markerlights. Hell, markerlights everywhere are cool. They just need to be made non-heavy weapons and I think that will make them much more useful.
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Post by: Brother Coa
There will be Black Templar codex next year.
Tau will probably came out after them.
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Post by: darkcloud92
I can agree with docbrown that FW should be better at shooting seeing as how the Tau are supposed to be a highly advanced race, as well as the fact that fire warriors are supposed to dedicate their whole lives to the task of war and shooting. If the bs increase is asking to much than I would like to see a points drop by one for the basic fire warrior, or the ability to pay extra points to carry a veteran squad of fire warriors that have the increased bs. Marker lights are cool, but I do not see them as a viable option on anything else besides path finders, I find path finders to be a great unit as they are. Why not just tweak them a bit rather than dish out marker lights to all the other units? If anything I want the option of taking marker lights on just about everything taken away since it is useless and distracting. In summary all I am saying is
FW tweak
cost 1 point less for basic warrior and add the option to take veterans that have increased bs
adjust pathfinders slightly perhaps? Though I do not see much of a problem with them at the moment.
Take away the marker light option from other units to allow them to specialize in what they do.
One last tid pit as to why they should not have marker lights on for all the different units: It goes against the Tau's fluff. The tau have their society divided to specialize in specific things, air caster for flying, fire caste for fighting, etc. It does not make sense to have each part of the fire warrior cast spend time in the use of marker lights, they should just have on specific group that specializes in it, namely path finders. Let the crisis suits worry about fire power, and the fire warriors accuracy, and the stealth suits...stealth? Idk I just do not really like stealth suits that much at the moment, unless you use them in a deepstrike suicide attack behind enemy armor.lol But still thats not all that great, so they obviously need a pretty big overhaul. I am sure you get what I am saying at this point though, just my thoughts on the matter
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Post by: Thranriel
Righ here is a counter argument.
I take 2 guys from a random school, and in a fit of evil genius I decide to make them shoot pulse rifles for years on end at targets.
One guy had a genetic trait which means that he cant see very far in focus. This causes his shooting to be very hit and miss, and as such at the end of two years he still comes out fairly bad (though much better than before).
THe other guy is fairly normal, kicks ass and comes out fine.
Sure if you genetically choose this so that everyone you could ever pick will have a better than average shot, thats awesome, but its going to take a long time for it to be effective for everyone, and to a degree you are wanting (remember this is like 2-4 years of training, if you can genetically alter that in a short space of time, then go on!)
Now assume that these two people are different species entirely. One species has been around for much longer and has been using firearms for a fairly long time. As such it has probably benefitted from genetic benefits such as enhanced eyesight and focus (as i highly doubt "shooting" is a genetic trait). Infact even while being hunted these will have been selected for.
The tau on the other hand have had a much shorter time to evolve. Sure their technology has grown at an exponential rate but what of the genetics? Obviously I cant answer that. But if we are going on time they are not going to be anywhere near as good. Sure they can see along a wider spectrum of colours but they also have a lack of focus. Training this guy for a few years may result in a better output, but will that output be better than a highly evolved race who started out being better than you? I think not.
And as such the tau being tau invented markerlights and target locks for them to keep up with the times.
tldr:
two species do not start at the same level for a basic trait,
two species will not learn at the same rate,
humans are more evolved, tau are not
tau use technology to get over this.
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Post by: iproxtaco
Brother SRM wrote:docbrown wrote:
I think bs 4 troops and bs 5 elites is reasonable for an army with abismal cc. Why can't I shoot as good as a vet or a dire avenger. Why must I be relegated to being a guardsman with a better gun.
Tau are BS3 but can take markerlights. This lets them shoot like they're at BS4 or 5, while introducing a unique gameplay mechanic and giving the race a distinctive quality that's all their own. It's to make them a more interesting army that relies on teamwork instead of just being another point and click shooting army. Also, guardsmen have incredibly good training all things considered. In the fluff, the average Cadian can field strip a rifle by the time he's 5, and spends his entire life shooting. By the time that kid's an adult serving in the Guard, he's a crack troop and a hell of a shot. BS3 represents trained shooters, while BS4 is for the elite crack troops. I'm also of the opinion that suits should all get BS4 standard to represent veteran status, but Fire Warriors should stay BS3 for the sake of game design.
This, really. Cadians are much better than Firewarriors, I don't see them with BS4. Reduce their points and make Markerlights non-heavy, problem solved.
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Post by: DoctorZombie
JoeyHeadwounds wrote:I was just looking through the Tau HQ list on GWs site and noticed that all of the HQ choices except for the Tau Crisis Battlesuit Commander are listed as no longer available. I don't know if it means anything nor do I claim that it does, just thought it was interesting and that someone might want to know...
They're probably Finecasting them. At my local GW shop, the clerk said that any of the metal models you don't see are being Finecasted, or are going to be. I want my bike chaplain 
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Post by: docbrown
Thran not fair. You can't use a negative example to doubt a positive result. Itsnot just about removing those who are not as good but about isolating those who show talent.
But fluff is pointless anyways as they will just recon it if they feel like.
From a gameplay standpoint it doesn't make sense that you can have a spectrum of VOF over SOF but when you tip to one end you can't justify the most polarized army Acctually being thebest at that end of the spectrum.
Ikon you guys like your interdependent thing but the reality is aside from pathfinders and seeker missiles nothing else really depends on anything.
Now if pathfinders were troops and I could bring msu of them nd also had a decent fast attack choice maybe that could work.
Having more then 3 units of markerlights means that it's hard to eliminate them.
If this is so I would like some fire points on the fish.
Now we make markerlights kick ass. Reducing ld. Ignoring certain usrs. Ect.
I can get behind that
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Post by: Thranriel
Tbh i have no idea about that positive negative stuff but ill just nod my head and say ok lol.
More markerlights, even on cheap troops would be nice (like you said pathfinders), I dont quite get what they are doing in fast attack anyway. Add a few more interesting ways for me to actually play rather than just the standard build and a few newish units and im happy.
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Post by: Totalwar1402
Kilkrazy wrote:docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
Game balance and differentiation.
Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.
Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.
Have I been cheating? 
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Post by: KplKeegan
iproxtaco wrote:make Markerlights non-heavy, problem solved.
This. Making Markerlights assault one would make Pathfinders fit with 'Fast Attack' choice and also shore up the fluff that Pathfinders are the Scouts of the Fire Caste, able to marker targets for Broadsides, Hammerheads, and Piranhas before the enemy knows whats coming.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Totalwar1402 wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
Game balance and differentiation.
Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.
Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.
Have I been cheating?
No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.
I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.
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Post by: docbrown
Thranriel wrote:Tbh i have no idea about that positive negative stuff but ill just nod my head and say ok lol.
More markerlights, even on cheap troops would be nice (like you said pathfinders), I dont quite get what they are doing in fast attack anyway. Add a few more interesting ways for me to actually play rather than just the standard build and a few newish units and im happy.
agreed
if they cam become reliable/durable i would be ok with them
if markerlights could work with a mech tau without a footed element then everything would come together
sidenote:
what if vespids could carry fusion blasters?
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Post by: IPS
Kilkrazy wrote:Totalwar1402 wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
Game balance and differentiation.
Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.
Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.
Have I been cheating?
No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.
I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.
Whilst I agree with you, bs 12 is not quite correct. ; )
The limit is at 5.^^
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Post by: Grakmar
IPS wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Totalwar1402 wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:docbrown wrote:Tau should be bs 4 if they are casted and bred to shoot why are we equal to humans who get minimal training and are set out into war. Why are we base 3 not 4
Game balance and differentiation.
Markerlights and base S5 weapons make the Tau the equivalent of BS4 against a lot of targets, while requiring co-operation between units. It leads to a different play style.
Wait, wait, wait! BS4 with markerlights? I thought you could stack markerlight counters (like you can for making pinning tests and reducing cover saves) to give Tau BS5.
Have I been cheating?
No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.
I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.
Whilst I agree with you, bs 12 is not quite correct. ; )
The limit is at 5.^^
He's right Kil. Check the last sentence of the 2nd bullet point under Markerlights on p29 of Tau codex.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Kilkrazy wrote:
No, you can stack your markerlights to give a unit BS12 if you have enough markerlights.
I just said BS4 because I was arguing against the proposal to make the basic Fire Warrior BS4.
If Tau Fire Warrior should have BS12 Space Marines should have 15.
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Post by: CpatTom
You have some gold points there as well.
Counters:
docbrown wrote: 1 seperating specific occurrences of genetic traits and expanding on them is genetic engineering. It's a different method yes but it is still genetic engineering.
It is technically genetic engineering, and the Tau would do it faster on account of shortened life spans yes, but in this setting it is important to differentiate between selective breeding as a tool for genetic guiding, and legitimately engineered genetics.
2 your chem team straw man thing is just invalid
I am attempting to challenge the assumption that by simply dividing them into groups, that they have become proficient in the task assigned to them. I used the example because while it is likely the chem team may not be good at sports (as many would assume), they may just as well produce a championship caliber team. I am simply using it as a means to show that the Etheral's divisions to the Tau does not equate to a positive outcome. (Nor a negative one either, it is just a moot point)
3 getting all nazi science Will produce the desired traits in a species and is preferable as it doesn't require hundreds of years of the gene pool shifting. However avengers have to be good in all aspects of combat. Tau just has to shoot. Therefore any gap in the effectiveness In the methods of engineering is negated by the taus total commitment to shooting.
Total commitment can mean increased performance; however, it doesn't necessarily mean it matches the abilities that might be manifested by a master Engineer (The Old Ones got it pretty right with the Eldar and Orks). I can't know the methodologies would equal each other based on the amount Tau focus (although I highly doubt it, Using Space Marines as an Example vs the regular guardsmen, I think it quite evident that engineering is so far superior.)
4 so tau can't have high bs because 6th might make high bs's op. geez why can't a xEnos have something a marine has. Oh it might break thE game.
They could have a high bs, if they payed for it accordingly. (and they should if they do pay accordingly).
5 balance is achieved many ways. Making an army less effective then it should logically be is not the best of these.
Agreed, but we don't always get the best method.
6 while I'm AT it why are drones bs2 that's just dumb.
I don't program A.I. but it seems hard. Plus, if the Tau had drones half as capable as Fire Warriors, well, just use them instead. Then you get frisbee orks (Now morale tests on suits because their drones who are supposed to get shot, get shot is kinda dumb, but hey, thats another point entirely)
7 why should an army that relies on few high probability attacks be stuck with average rolls to hit. Is it that odd that a shooting focused army that is not gunspam guard can aim there few guns as good or better then a cc focused marine.
As I believe stated by someone else, it was to force synergy with Marker Lights (which were gimped by point costs and heavy status, and networked, etc.)
8 as it stands tau are often a 4+ 3+ army. Why cant we be a 3+ 3+ army. Armies are supposed to be scary. If we can't spam 4+ 5+ enough to be scary why can we bring a few 3+3+. And a select few 2+2+ shots. Let marker lights be used for ld and cover only. No bs upgrades. That can be how tau are scary
I would like that.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The main rules allow BS over 5 and there is a mechanism whereby you reroll misses on a 6 or something. I can't remember the details.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Kill, the highest BS is 10. There is nothing over 10.
And BRB also say that BS of 6 and more are RARE, it is reserved for galaxies finest marksman.
And FW are just ordinary infantry. They don't deserve more than 4, sorry.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.
Markerlights add to BS.
BS can be over 5.
It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.
Markerlights add to BS.
BS can be over 5.
It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.
It matters, nothing in 40k have stats over 10. be it I, BS, As or A. 10 is top for everything. And basic troops cannot have the same accuracy as the most veteran Vindicator assassins. Even Space Marines have better accuracy then FW thanks to their centuries of combat experience that Tau lack.
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Post by: Grakmar
Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not arguing for Fire Warriors being BS12.
Markerlights add to BS.
BS can be over 5.
It doesn't matter if it tops out at 10 or 12, the principle is the same in either case.
Yes, but the rule for Markerlights says that they can only increase up to 5.
Other models can have over 5, but Tau can only get to 5 with Markerlights, no more.
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Post by: nomotog
They should completely change the rules for marker lights.
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