Something I've never quite understood, so I'm relying on you masters of canon. Where do the SoB get their troops from? What's the selection/training process like? Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Also, are they dateable? Because I'm sure we all just LOVE a woman in power armor.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

An Imperial organization known as the Schola Progenium. It takes the orphans of war heroes and trains them from shortly after birth, determining where they will go in life-- the commissariat, the stormtroopers, the sisters, etc-- although the students have some say in the matter. The training is rather intense, producing the best human soldiers and officers in the galaxy.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Baseline humans. Sisters of Battle have power armor as augmentation, and whatever cybernetic implants that they might have to replace lost organs, but nothing else.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

They cleave only unto the Emperor.

Even though according to a single source (The Cain books and nowhere else. Sandy Mitchel is rather unable to write Sisters very well.) they have no vow of chastity, the Sisters are dedicated to their cause above all else, living a life of self-denial in complete dedication to the Emperor.

I'd rather not date a woman who can snap my spine by patting me on the back.

On topic, Mel has the correct answers.

Lol, just the info I needed. Thanks, y'all.

Melissia wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

They cleave only unto the Emperor.

Even though according to a single source (The Cain books and nowhere else. Sandy Mitchel is rather unable to write Sisters very well.) they have no vow of chastity, the Sisters are dedicated to their cause above all else, living a life of self-denial in complete dedication to the Emperor.

Although, seeing as they do carry those belts of prayer beads where every bead represents penance for a sin they do have to sin in some way. I'm not sure they'd go as far as abandoning their duties for dating, but even speaking to a male outsider and reporting "sinful thoughts" should do it.

Chastity is to be expected of someone promised to the Emperor, that is true. I'd still think some of the non-combatant Orders would find it perfectly acceptable to have children (by fine Imperial heroes, ofc) as long as it doesn't interfere with the Order's normal work.

Spetulhu wrote:Although, seeing as they do carry those belts of prayer beads where every bead represents penance for a sin they do have to sin in some way. I'm not sure they'd go as far as abandoning their duties for dating, but even speaking to a male outsider and reporting "sinful thoughts" should do it.

Chastity is to be expected of someone promised to the Emperor, that is true. I'd still think some of the non-combatant Orders would find it perfectly acceptable to have children (by fine Imperial heroes, ofc) as long as it doesn't interfere with the Order's normal work.

Well, it was more of a joke, really, but knowing Caphias Cain, he's probably gone there at some point.

Spetulhu wrote:Although, seeing as they do carry those belts of prayer beads where every bead represents penance for a sin they do have to sin in some way.

"I forgot to recite the 278th daily prayer."
"I misspoke when talking to Sisters Ariana about the details of [insert battle here]."
"I felt the urge to hit that priest who came by today, as he was speaking so full of pride and arrogance that he coud not have been pure."


Etc etc etc. For Sisters, even the slightest "sins" need atonement. Some Sisters take it so far as to the extreme, and these ones often end up as Repentia.

Melissia wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Although, seeing as they do carry those belts of prayer beads where every bead represents penance for a sin they do have to sin in some way.

"I forgot to recite the 278th daily prayer."
"I misspoke when talking to Sisters Ariana about the details of [insert battle here]."
"I felt the urge to hit that priest who came by today, as he was speaking so full of pride and arrogance that he coud not have been pure."


Etc etc etc. For Sisters, even the slightest "sins" need atonement. Some Sisters take it so far as to the extreme, and these ones often end up as Repentia.

Aye, that's why I said "sinful thoughts", not "sinful deeds". Even getting the idea that she has somehow incited others into thinking about sinning could be enough - for example nodding your approval at someone cleaning the cathedral you're guarding and noticing the young man staring at you. You've just distracted a servant from his temple duties!

I'd go to say that the only place this issue could really come into question is in the service of an Inquisitor. Otherwise, yeah, faith overrides all. But with the Inquisitor, you have a conundrum. Hold by your vow of chastity, or submit to the will of someone who, essentially, is the Imperium incarnate. Hence, why Caphias Cain has totally already gone there.

TermiesInARaider wrote:I'd go to say that the only place this issue could really come into question is in the service of an Inquisitor.

Not even then. Inquisitors have to tread carefully around Sisters just as they do around the Astartes and Mechanicus. The one in the Ciaphas Cain books hid his radicalism from them lest he earn their ire.

Melissia wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:I'd go to say that the only place this issue could really come into question is in the service of an Inquisitor.

Not even then. Inquisitors have to tread carefully around Sisters just as they do around the Astartes and Mechanicus. The one in the Ciaphas Cain books hid his radicalism from them lest he earn their ire.

Again, really more of a joke than anything, but I trust in your judgement.

The SOBs has none augmentics unless it's replacements, but their immense faith makes them much harder and impervious than any mortal. That's faith and conviction. I combine that with a certain commissar (Cain) smarking over old sport-results.

There is little fluff developed about the Sisters, which is too bad.

Melissia wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

An Imperial organization known as the Schola Progenium. It takes the orphans of war heroes and trains them from shortly after birth, determining where they will go in life-- the commissariat, the stormtroopers, the sisters, etc-- although the students have some say in the matter. The training is rather intense, producing the best human soldiers and officers in the galaxy.

...
Even though according to a single source (The Cain books and nowhere else. Sandy Mitchel is rather unable to write Sisters very well.) they have no vow of chastity, the Sisters are dedicated to their cause above all else, living a life of self-denial in complete dedication to the Emperor.

Point of fact, Sisters can also get recruits elsewhere. (Though this is uncommon, according to fluff it does happen.) Further, there is also the debatable poor choice of wording in Blood of Martyrs that implies that Sisters Famulous may serve as mistresses to certain powerful nobles as part of the Order's general mission of riding herd on the Imperium's nobility. (Again, this is debatable and may simply have been a poor choice of wording by the editors/writer, or FFG trying to harden back to the order's origins in Frank Herbert's Dune.)

And I found his observations sadly pertinent to how they would actually conduct combat in the battle for Aceralbaterra. (You know, behaving like people who really believe those sort of things actually tend to behave in real combat. It's very hard to control religious fanatics on the battlefield. Caine's observation on pointing at something important to the enemy and screaming 'Heretic' is, sadly, a good way to direct troops with that sort of mindset, as the histories of various knightly orders would demonstrate...)

Then again troops not in the throws of religious fervor can also get tunnel vision. It's called target fixation and is something airforce's have a hard time training pilots out of, since they tend to fly right into the ground chasing falling airplanes...

Being fanatical doesn't mean stupid. Many SOBs are accomplished tacticians, despite their fanaticism and can rival the finest of the Space Marines as far as tactics and strategy goes.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Although, seeing as they do carry those belts of prayer beads where every bead represents penance for a sin they do have to sin in some way. I'm not sure they'd go as far as abandoning their duties for dating, but even speaking to a male outsider and reporting "sinful thoughts" should do it.

Chastity is to be expected of someone promised to the Emperor, that is true. I'd still think some of the non-combatant Orders would find it perfectly acceptable to have children (by fine Imperial heroes, ofc) as long as it doesn't interfere with the Order's normal work.

Well, it was more of a joke, really, but knowing Caphias Cain, he's probably gone there at some point.

Nope - even Cain was quite shocked by the concept of a Sister not being chaste - Amberley remarks that there is no vow extent but all the other participants in the Cain novels assume they are........... and (much to Cains annoyance) are in quite a bit of awe of them in a similar way to the way the Asartes are treated. Cain does not like them because their actions can put him at risk, they are unpredictable and don't have to obey him but even he concedes on a number of occassions they are formidable warriors.

Also The Sisters are likely a little sensitive about the whole subject of sex after Vandire made them into the "Brides" of the Emperor - they are back to "Daughters" where they should be.............

As noted some Sisters will be highly trained tacticians - others more charge and the Emperor WILL protect - again a bit like the Astartes?

Beaviz81 wrote:Being fanatical doesn't mean stupid. Many SOBs are accomplished tacticians, despite their fanaticism and can rival the finest of the Space Marines as far as tactics and strategy goes.

Source?

And, while i agree that fanaticism does not always equal stupidity, you would be amazed the number of times it does throughout history. (Hattin anyone?)

There are few sources, but some Cannonnesses has racked up quite the list of victories. So that means they are likely to have sound military minds, then again I'm not the best source as I sort of make an educated guess on what I haven't found.

I'd like to add a quick question.

Can Repentia ever end up being connected to a Penitent Engine, or is it exclusively for Heretics and Traitors?

Mr Morden wrote:

Nope - even Cain was quite shocked by the concept of a Sister not being chaste - Amberley remarks that there is no vow extent but all the other participants in the Cain novels assume they are........... and (much to Cains annoyance) are in quite a bit of awe of them in a similar way to the way the Asartes are treated. Cain does not like them because their actions can put him at risk, they are unpredictable and don't have to obey him but even he concedes on a number of occassions they are formidable warriors.

This is an important point Melissia seems to have missed in Sandy Mitchell's work. While Cain himself views the sisters as fanatical emperor-botherers, the common imperial guardsman is shown to be inspired, if not awe-struck, by their zeal and fiery determination. Cain's portrayal of them isn't much more satirical than his view on other factions of the Imperium, though he does show respect to the Astartes in 'Emperor's Finest'.

Sister's of battle seem ignorant

Brother Thomas wrote:Sister's of battle seem ignorant

Try not to view everything in white and black.

You could say Space Marines are all very prideful and will let their pride cloud their judgement up to the point where they will fall to chaos.
Now is this true? For some space marines yes it is but for all space marines? No it isn't. It's the same thing with sisters of battle. Their are some sisters who are actually ignorant but to say they all are or even the majority of them is actually ironically a very ignorant thing. It's like saying all Asians are good at math. The truth is yes their are lots of Asians who good at math but not all of them are good at it.

@Medium of Death: Repentia is a sister of battle how has failed (big time) or done something wrong and takes a vow to become a repentia. A Penitent Engine is for Heretics who have committed such a crime that not even Arco-Flaggelant is punishment enough.

Brother Thomas wrote:Sister's of battle seem ignorant

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Sister's of battle seem ignorant

They are, they despise psykers even though the Imperium survives through psykers and the Emporer was just the most powerfull psyker in existence.

But none of those other psykers are the God-Emperor. They are but pretenders to His Perfection. Pale, distorted reflections of His Glory that cannot help but seem base and ugly in comparison... and also potentially conduits of the Warp, from which all manner of abominations may erupt.

They are right in despising the psyker.

BaronIveagh wrote:Source?

Trained by the schola progenium.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Source?

Trained by the schola progenium.

Stormtroopers are trained by the Schola Progenium. That doesn't mean every one of them is a brilliant tactician.

Melissia wrote:Trained by the schola progenium.

So are Arbites. That doesn't make them Macharius. The few glimpse of the training we get seem to involve prayer, song, and bayonet practice. I'd rate them highly as shock troops, not so much as strategists.

In Dark Heresy a sister of battle before becoming a Canoness can get Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) +20 (the highest rank), Command +20 and Into the Jaws of Hell. These three combined would probably show how good of leader they are and how well they grasp tactics. Now some sisters might have a better understanding and tactics then a space marine but in most cases a space marines will better understanding of war and tactics due to their long age and the amount of experience they have under them. Also a space marine can spend more of his time training and learning tactics (as they require less sleep and rest then a sister of battle).

So to sum it up, space marines will usually have better tactics and strategies then sisters (and imperial guard) due to their genetic modifications.

Necrosis wrote:In Dark Heresy a sister of battle before becoming a Canoness can get Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) +20 (the highest rank), Command +20 and Into the Jaws of Hell. These three combined would probably show how good of leader they are and how well they grasp tactics. Now some sisters might have a better understanding and tactics then a space marine but in most cases a space marines will better understanding of war and tactics due to their long age and the amount of experience they have under them. Also a space marine can spend more of his time training and learning tactics (as they require less sleep and rest then a sister of battle).

So to sum it up, space marines will usually have better tactics and strategies then sisters (and imperial guard) due to their genetic modifications.

And now we'll commit the gravest of sins: crunch balance = fluff justifications.

So, the Imperium has tanks with ranges of only 100 yards?

BaronIveagh wrote:And now we'll commit the gravest of sins: crunch balance = fluff justifications.

So, the Imperium has tanks with ranges of only 100 yards?

In Dark Heresy A bolter range is 100 meters with no penalty, you can shot up to 200 meters with a penalty.
1 yards = 0.9144 meters
A Man Portable Lascannon for a human is 300 meters with no penalty and 600 meters with a penalty.

Edit: Give me some time and I'll start adding in the tanks profiles.

A hellstrike missile can be shot at 1000 meters with no penalty and 2000 meters with a penalty.

I would like to add a brief note that the Sisters of Battle are not a unified organization, different Orders differ in organization/recruitment/vows of chastity in much the same manner that different Space Marine Chapters might. Ciaphas Cain merely ran across a Sororitas Order that doesn't mandate vows of chastity.

And on the subject of whether Space Marines or Sisters of Battle have 'better' tactics/knowledge of war, remember that these people aren't necessarily all that scientific about war. It's entirely possible that you'd run across an Ultramarines Captain who takes every word in the Codex Astartes literally and would never consider deviating from it's dictates regardless of the situation or common sense, you might run across a 400-year-old Canoness (juvenat drugs) with a precise and detailed knowledge of how to handle any combat situation and the flexibility to adapt when things go wrong. It's also possible that these might be reversed, you might find a Raven Guard Captain who keeps a copy of the Codex Astartes to wipe his bum with and runs entirely on clever situational adaptive tactics, and a mere fifty-year-old Canoness whose knowledge of war boils down to a simple flowchart: Friendly? Yes -> Say hello and keep going. No -> BURN.

I do believe that, regardless of Order, a Sister's vows are identical. Before they join an Order, they are Initiates at one of the two main enclaves, where training and instruction is regimented and universal.

I don't think you will find non-chaste Sororitas. They're actually very much identical, across the galaxy, unlike the Space Marines. They don't take away from their vows to replace them with different vows, or no vow at all, they simply add to the vows they all take, in reference to specific events, saints, founders, goals, whatever, depending on which Order they belong to.

Vows can also be taken after joining an order. Like becoming a sister repentia I believe is also a vow.

AnomanderRake wrote:I would like to add a brief note that the Sisters of Battle are not a unified organization, different Orders differ in organization/recruitment/vows of chastity in much the same manner that different Space Marine Chapters might. Ciaphas Cain merely ran across a Sororitas Order that doesn't mandate vows of chastity.

The Sisters are a unified organisation. All Sisters are the students of one of only two institutions (Convent Prioris and Convent Sanctorum), which are explicitly stated to be similar in organisation.

It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Hopefully 6th edition will fix things.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many girls go through the Schola, but not all train to become Sisters, and not all of those become Sisters.

This is a good thing.

You want it to be easy for a girl who isn't cut out to be a Battle Sister to go on to different things. It means you can pick the cream of the crop to train as Sisters, and it means a girl who lacks the True Faith or other attributes necessary to become a good Sister will not be coerced into hiding it and going through the motions until it gets someone killed.

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many girls go through the Schola, but not all train to become Sisters, and not all of those become Sisters.

This is a good thing.

You want it to be easy for a girl who isn't cut out to be a Battle Sister to go on to different things. It means you can pick the cream of the crop to train as Sisters, and it means a girl who lacks the True Faith or other attributes necessary to become a good Sister will not be coerced into hiding it and going through the motions until it gets someone killed.

True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Being fanatical doesn't mean stupid. Many SOBs are accomplished tacticians, despite their fanaticism and can rival the finest of the Space Marines as far as tactics and strategy goes.

Source?

And, while i agree that fanaticism does not always equal stupidity, you would be amazed the number of times it does throughout history. (Hattin anyone?)

Source for that? Seems the Crusaders got outmanoeuvred there, and the Muslims seems as fanatics as the Crusaders.

And there's more and more people saying that the Crusades were not about religion as much as some people would beleive.

Necrosis wrote:True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

No, it's not. No Space Marine is supposed to have authority over more than 1,000 other Space Marines. It might not work out that way in reality, between the Black Templars and various Chapters that are still loyal to their progenitor Chapters, but that's the theory. By comparison if there are 30,000 Adepta Sororitas they all answer to the Abbess.

Necrosis wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Hopefully 6th edition will fix things.

Thinking the 6th edition will magically fix everything will only end in tears. Just ask the DRW-fans after this summer when Zach Parise and Ryan Suter both fail to show up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:

Necrosis wrote:True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

No, it's not. No Space Marine is supposed to have authority over more than 1,000 other Space Marines. It might not work out that way in reality, between the Black Templars and various Chapters that are still loyal to their progenitor Chapters, but that's the theory. By comparison if there are 30,000 Adepta Sororitas they all answer to the Abbess.

There are like only a few orders out there (and they are not any bigger than a Codex Astartes-following Space Marine chapter), while there are about one thousand Space Marine chapters. So in sum the Space Marines outnumber the Sisters of Battle by quite the numbers.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

The number of Battle Sisters isn't the same as the total number of Sisters. It is certain that GW has never adequately explained the logistics of the Orders. Even the FFG Dark Heresy supplements didn't give it any real thought. But, then again, a lot of things seem to exist in a vacuum in 40K. I mean, if a Space Marine Chapter can only have exactly 1000 total brothers, they'd be consistently under-strength as an infantry force because it takes over 400 Marines to crew the various vehicles that the Ultramarines are shown to possess, and that's before the introduction of the new flyers we're supposed to see. But that's a whole different, long-winded discussion.

The bottom line is, the Schola Progenium may cycle a large number of girls into the program, but not all are going to find their way into the Battle Sisters. Probably not even close to most. The rest will become Hospitallers, Dialogus, Sabines, Pronatus, Famulous, etc. And, there are likely tons of menials for those who don't show any really notable aptitudes that would land them a more specialized job. The Battle Sisters are going to be the taller, bigger, stronger women who enter the orders and look like this. But let's be realistic, the average woman (in world terms) is about 5'2" and there's no reason to think the average is going to spike dramatically in the 40K universe. She's not going to make an ideal Battle Sister, even with power armor, so she'll be utilized elsewhere by the Ecclesiarchy. The Battle Sister is probably more rare to an Imperial citizen than a Space Marine, but they're probably reasonable familiar with the Sororitas in their more mundane functions. In the end, the Space Marines are the stars of the show in 40K. That's why we know all about the chapter serfs and servitors and other such that run the show behind the scenes in a Space Marine chapter. But let's be realistic. Games Workshop hasn't even bothered to give us an in-depth, coherent picture of how a Space Marine chapter operates, so it's not likely anybody over there is giving much thought to how the Sisters would actually be able to legitimately function. Mostly because they don't sell enough models, but also because those kinds of details are sorta mundane in the sci-fi action/adventure genre. If 40K was more about sci-fi military fiction, then we might see the nitty gritty a little more often.

*dusts off the old books*

I've never heard of „many“ girls entering the Sororitas program – at least not „many“ as in „millions“. What is true is that a lot of girls end up in the Schola Progenium, but this facility trains more than just Sisters of Battle. In fact, the vast majority of progena ends up as scribes for the Administratum, whilst the ones of above-average recruitment stock are getting trained for duty as Arbites enforcers, Munitorum staff soldiers or Navy NCOs. Only the best of the best end up in the Sororitas classes, and of those there are still the non-militant Orders such as the Famulous, the Hospitallers, the Sabine, the Pronatus and the Dialogous who require regular reinforcements. Occasionally you'll have the Inquisition or the Assassinorum recruit from these top-performers, but usually, the elite ends up in the Sisters Militant. Perhaps fittingly, their numbers seem somewhat on par with those of the Imperial Guard's Storm Trooper regiment.

In terms of their ability for tactical thinking, even the current Codex (as all did before) notes that each Canoness is “a veteran warrior of many hundreds of battles who has risen to her position through a combination of strong leadership, shrewd tactical genius and sheer overarching faith in the Emperor“. Given the heavily squad-centric and independent organizational doctrine of the Battle Sisters, I highly doubt that the average Sororitas Militant will be trained in anything above small-units tactics, but it seems obvious that the Canonesses are different. I will elaborate further in the other thread.

As for their uniformity, the Adepta Sororitas are one of the most unified organizations in the entire Imperium. Whilst minor variances in spirit are said to exist between the various Orders as depending on the personality of their Patron Saint, every single Order is able to trace back its roots to the origin of their organization as a whole, and all Sisters endure the bulk of their training in either the Convent Sanctorum or Primaris. As such, the so-called Liber Sororitas, a fairly big and informative article printed in WD #293, notes that “the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. […] The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source – the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor – and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.“

It should be kept in mind that, according to the authors themselves, there is no such thing as a “canon“ in 40k and (to quote Andy Hoare) “no binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or true representation of the setting“, so one must always consider the possibility that not all sources may be compatible with each other. And yes, I'm thinking of the Cain novels when I write this, as it is my understanding that they depict a version of Sororitas utterly polar to what we can see in GW studio books.

Disclaimer: The above opinion reflects the writer's personal interpretation of a uniform summary of official Games Workshop sources, including rulebooks, codices and issues of White Dwarf or the Citadel Magazine. Outsourced and licensed products or fan-fiction containing elements incompatible to these sources have been dismissed and ignored.

Many girls enters one of the Orders of the Sororitas. Then again, you state it's the cream of the crop, so logic tells me that from millions of candidates they likely end up with only a hardened core who comes out of the convents as fully fledged Sororitas. Entering a novice-stage is an entirely different proposition than getting to be a fully fledged SOB. Having the faith that lets a body endure the things they must endure likely makes them even more special than any Space Marine who ain't a Grey Knight or their successor-chapter.

Well, how much is "many"? Personally, it is my belief that anyone not fit for duty as a Sororitas would be weeded out in the Schola already, so that failed novices would be a very rare thing indeed.

I forgot to mention that the Sisters of Battle have a fairly high attrition rate, so perhaps they would simply burn through human material rather quickly - much like the Storm Trooper Regiment. An organization of several ten, perhaps hundred thousand Battle Sisters, of whom many are engaged in near-constant warfare would probably need "many" recruits to stay alive.

From the 2E Codex, referring to the six Major Orders Militant:

"The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

Of course, this only refers to the Big Six, and it is my understanding that the locally limited Minor Orders are not as active (explaining why you don't see them as much in official fluff). That said, the highly mobile Major Orders are engaged in battles throughout Imperial Space or even beyond, so my guess would be that they get the bulk of recruits, even though their actual members are presumably fewer than the total headcount of the Minor Orders. They simply "need more material", as they carry the most weight.

Oh golly, no, the regime must be so strict that they just simply must dismiss many canidates for often rather flimsy reasons, and that's ferreted out at the Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII.

Ophelia's convent apparently is the second largest building in the verse only dwarfed by the Imperial Palace on Holy Terra. So it's quite clear that when inducted at the Schola Progenium, to being able to run berzerk with bolter, is quite the step.

So from novice I would say most falls through. It would depend on their age when they are sent there from the Schola Progeniums, but still I maintain that they likely has just began their training at the convents (sorry Schola Progeniums were a typo) when they are sent to the convents from those places.

Well, differing interpretations, in that case.

The regime is strict, but from what I've read about their laws, there's no leaving the Order once you're in. Common punishments seem to be fasting, prayer and the whip. Anything that warrants more will see you qualify for the Repentia:

[...] and if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle.
-- Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

I'm less certain about that, but then again failed Space Marines who survive gets to be serfs and such and do all the menial jobs.

Seriously the life of a Space Marines or a Sister of Battle is likely so harsh that the Schola Progenium (a school and military-training center from the hell of hells) would look like a picnic.

Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

Hahaha. Brilliant point, and to a point as well.

Bobthehero wrote:

Source for that? Seems the Crusaders got outmanoeuvred there, and the Muslims seems as fanatics as the Crusaders.

The crusaders were outmaneuvered more by their own internal bickering. The Templars demanded an immediate attack on Saladin, while the actual ruler of Tiberius was accused of cowardice for saying that they should hold off retaking the city and force Saladin into attacking a powerful dug in position. (A strategy which, I might point out, Napoleon used to great effect at Austerlitz).


(Not sure if this is from this thread or just me bleeding over from another thread on the subject of battlesisters, but

With the tanks I was referring to the tabletop rules. Not Dark Heresy. This came up over and over again during hashing out if SM strike cruisers could have lances or not during the testing part of FAQ2010, due to the peculiarity that the TT game lance hits are only 20m wide. So claiming any sort of crunch as evidence in a 'fluff' argument is pointless, as someone else can grab another version of the same weapon from a different game in the same setting and argue something else.

BTW: The current fanbased calculations for a leman russ tank fitted with a battle canon.
Battle Cannon– Ordinance – 1km – S/-/-/ - 4d10 + 5 X – 5 – 1 – 2 Full – Reliable, Blast (10) – 1500kg – GM - Rare

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/armoury/weapons-and-armour/1218-tanks-of-the-imperium

First: There is a serious problem with the idea of the Sororitas being united. That being that there currently is no Abbess, and has not been since the previous one was lost to the warp.

Second: GW falls into the 'Math Hole' again. If there are currently fewer then 30,000 sisters, and orders majoris currently have 3,000 to 4,000 sisters, this means that there are insufficient battle sisters to outfit all the named orders at their canon levels, let alone the orders minors for whom actual numbers are unavailable (even at the 'as few as 100' levels suggested).

(We'll just hand-waive how 30,000 anything isn't enough to ride herd on an entire planet even at a 'mere'5 billion humans, let alone 500 billion humans...)


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AlexHolker wrote:
The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

I'd be impressed to see a thuggish six year old. (The date that Uriel Ventris supposedly started training).

Point of fact though, you're referring back to 1st edition, which has been retconned so hard it bounced...


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Lynata wrote:Well, differing interpretations, in that case.

The regime is strict, but from what I've read about their laws, there's no leaving the Order once you're in.

Unless you leave. BoM has a serious incongruity between 'Sisters never leave the order' when earlier 'Sisters have left the order to become inquisitors, cardinals, and Rogue Traders'.

That last one also flushes the whole 'no sex' vow right down the toilet, as a Rogue Trader would need to reproduce to continue the line. (Which they did, apparently, since the line is not on the list of Rogue Trader warrants that have died out, despite being the only member of the house.)

1KM only for a cannon far better than what a M1 can produce, I could do better than those fans.

As for the whole no-sex-vow. If they are flushed out, then they renounce their vows.

BaronIveagh wrote:[
With the tanks I was referring to the tabletop rules. Not Dark Heresy. This came up over and over again during hashing out if SM strike cruisers could have lances or not during the testing part of FAQ2010, due to the peculiarity that the TT game lance hits are only 20m wide. So claiming any sort of crunch as evidence in a 'fluff' argument is pointless, as someone else can grab another version of the same weapon from a different game in the same setting and argue something else.

BTW: The current fanbased calculations for a leman russ tank fitted with a battle canon.
Battle Cannon– Ordinance – 1km – S/-/-/ - 4d10 + 5 X – 5 – 1 – 2 Full – Reliable, Blast (10) – 1500kg – GM - Rare

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/armoury/weapons-and-armour/1218-tanks-of-the-imperium

Well why are you referring to table top rules when I'm referring to another set of rules. Dark Heresy is the most accurate set of rules we have for 40k (as it uses a d100 system instead of a D6). You can see the differences between a space marine bolter, a sister of battle bolter and imperial guard bolter. You can also see major differences in space marine power armour and a sister of battle power armour. And then you use fan material to back up your argument which is ridiculous. It is not made by the company, thus it is not valid example. Now I'm not saying Dark Heresy is the holy grail of fluff/cannon but if it does say something, its something to consider. As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Trained by the schola progenium.

So are Arbites.

And therefor the Arbites have more than a basic understanding of Imperial tactics and warfare.

Seriously, the Arbites are quite competent, despite what some people want to believe.

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Indeed, they have a grasp, and I would claim the majority of their education is done on Terra and that other planet, in their convents. That's were their education to be angry nuns truly begins.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Trained by the schola progenium.

So are Arbites.

And therefor the Arbites have more than a basic understanding of Imperial tactics and warfare.

How do we know what the curriculum is that is taught to Schola Progenium attendees? It's probably much more likely that as they grow and age, the students are placed into more specialized programs tailored to the skills they will need. The Schola Progenium isn't one giant classroom, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Really? I have heard about plenty of kids that have done murders and quite badass things at that tender age.

Necrosis wrote:Well why are you referring to table top rules when I'm referring to another set of rules. Dark Heresy is the most accurate set of rules we have for 40k (as it uses a d100 system instead of a D6). You can see the differences between a space marine bolter, a sister of battle bolter and imperial guard bolter. You can also see major differences in space marine power armour and a sister of battle power armour. And then you use fan material to back up your argument which is ridiculous. It is not made by the company, thus it is not valid example. Now I'm not saying Dark Heresy is the holy grail of fluff/cannon but if it does say something, its something to consider. As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

Most accurate? By what standard?

They're just the most specific. But there's a distinct difference between precision and accuracy, lol.


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Beaviz81 wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus the IOM is not foreign to wasting away the cream of the crop like with the Space Marines, only the finest male fighters join their ranks. it's the same with the SOB, and with even more attrition.

The finest male fighters? What rot. The Space Marines recruit thuggish children, unfit to serve in any serious military without brainwashing and augmentic surgery.

O_o

Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Really? I have heard about plenty of kids that have done murders and quite badass things at that tender age.

Damn. Norway's less civilized than I thought then. /shrug.

I have heard about it, I don't know about it as I dislike reading about wonder-kids even when it comes to violence.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many are called. Most are found wanting.

BaronIveagh wrote:That last one also flushes the whole 'no sex' vow right down the toilet

You know, i feel the need to ask this question (not necessarily of you Baron), but why do people feel so utterly compelled to either uphold the celibacy of the SoB or its antithesis?

Is there anything so critical or crucial to the faction that is irrevocably harmed if the SoB (or some of them, or all of them, or none of them) should happen to engage in procreative acts? Or be absolutely celibate?

Psienesis wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's a total strange thing there. At one point many girls enter into the Sororita-program, then again only a few thousand is said to exist. I don't know what to believe.

Many are called. Most are found wanting.

I know, I discussed that at length with Lynata. I reached your conclusion. Most are either there as servants and such, a few might be released for personal reasons by the Abbess.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Huh? Are you still feverishly re-reading Ian Watson's Space Marine and your dog earned copy of Rogue Trader? While inductee standards certainly vary, there's really no suggestion that for most chapters, especially those which follow the guidelines for recruitment in the Codex Astartes, select anything but the best candidates. And definitely no evidence that they recruit from amongst a demographic that would be "unfit to serve" once they attained adulthood.

The Blood Angels and their gladiatorial fights to the death don't ring any bells?

The average Space Marine "aspirant" is 6-8 years old, lol. A little hard to have much street cred as a "thug" when you're still losing the last of your baby teeth.

Index Astartes says 10-14. 6-8 would be stupid.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do we know what the curriculum is that is taught to Schola Progenium attendees?

You are correct that after a certain age they train for specific professions, but...



The Imperium is a nation at war, and the Schola Progenium is a very martial school.


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AlexHolker wrote:Index Astartes says 10-14

This is correct. Ten to twelve, actually, is ideal, as at taht age the aspirant will have the least amount of problems with the Astartes organ implants.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Most accurate? By what standard?

They're just the most specific. But there's a distinct difference between precision and accuracy, lol.

Maybe by the examples I showed above but no go ahead, ignore my examples that show the rules to be more accurate and precise.

Necrosis wrote:
True but even so, it still strange that there is a lot more space marines and then sisters of battle.

We are agreed in this. The math simply does not hold up, as it seems like every sector has a different order minoris or a significant presence by one of the order's majoris. And there are something like 25,000 sectors (IIRC) in the Imperium...

Beaviz81 wrote:Many girls enters one of the Orders of the Sororitas. Then again, you state it's the cream of the crop, so logic tells me that from millions of candidates they likely end up with only a hardened core who comes out of the convents as fully fledged Sororitas.

Given the size of the Imperium, and the number of candidates thus produced, you'll have more then mere 'millions'. The schola on Perlia, a relatively underpopulated nowhere, produces about 8-12 a year. Assuming, of course, that Hive worlds produce proportionately more...

Beaviz81 wrote:1KM only for a cannon far better than what a M1 can produce, I could do better than those fans.

As for the whole no-sex-vow. If they are flushed out, then they renounce their vows.

You must not play or know much about ordinance. It's max range would be about equal to the current 120 that M1A2's get fitted with. (remember that max range = 4 times the listed distance.) Given it's relatively shorter barrel and heavier shell, that's actually pretty damn good accuracy. (Since they're explicitly stated to be 'dumb' rounds).

Actually one could argue that they were 'promoted out' To be 'flushed out' means that they failed in some way (which they don't do, you get to be a Repentia or Oblatia at that point. Or executed. Or a seething Chaos Fanatic, depending on the exact mechanism of your failure....). I highly doubt the Inquisition would be taking them in as Inquisitors if they had failed as SoB.

Necrosis wrote:
Well why are you referring to table top rules when I'm referring to another set of rules. Dark Heresy is the most accurate set of rules we have for 40k (as it uses a d100 system instead of a D6). You can see the differences between a space marine bolter, a sister of battle bolter and imperial guard bolter. You can also see major differences in space marine power armour and a sister of battle power armour. And then you use fan material to back up your argument which is ridiculous. It is not made by the company, thus it is not valid example. Now I'm not saying Dark Heresy is the holy grail of fluff/cannon but if it does say something, its something to consider. As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

And then we have relic bolters, which make that difference go up in smoke like a chimera hit with a volcano cannon. And while, yes, you can see the difference between the different patterns of SM armor and sisters Power armor (slight depending on pattern) you can also see the difference between a suit of Terminator armor for Astartes and one for mere mortals (apparently none).

Further, it's possible to make power armor for 'mere men' that actually exceeds SM armor. So....


And the Leman Russ thing had nothing to do with anything, other than you mentioned working out the ranges on a Leman Russ, which has already been done. And I have a feeling will be fairly close to the actual stats when Only War comes out.

Melissia wrote:
From the FFG games, all progenia graduates (even scholars) have the following:
Lore (War)
And training with rifles/pistols and basic melee weapons of the Imperium. Sisters in specific can get scholastic lore (tactics) fairly early on-- at the exact same time that dedicated scholars and, more relevantly, at the same time that Guard officers get them.

The Imperium is a nation at war, and the Schola Progenium is a very martial school.

Common Lore (War) however, is the skill that measures a characters knowledge of famous commanders and battles (basically a general History of the Imperium if you get down to it). Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) (This is the skill about your character's grasp of tactics and battle planning.) is not given until Rank 6 or 7 (depending on Book) to Sororitas (or anyone else in the Dark Heresy, AFAIK). Or the last two ranks before the level limit, if you're not using Ascension. This is more likely to represent their own growing experiences rather then any actual scholastic learning.

Compare this to the Arch-militant, who receives this at first level in Rogue Trader.

A Rogue Trader character is, by design, the equivalent of a Rank 8 Dark Heresy character, though. It explains this in the beginning of RT about mixing characters between the games.

I agree to the promoted out, that was good wording. I can actually see an Abbess telling a young Sororita she don't think the organization is right for her as she lack the bone-hammered home point of view of her sisters f.ex. and releasing her, or finding the young woman to inquisitive to be of any use. Neither warrants death, but neither is fit for such an organization.

I'm not even gonna discuss your fluff behind your Battle Cannon Baron.

Psienesis wrote:A Rogue Trader character is, by design, the equivalent of a Rank 8 Dark Heresy character, though. It explains this in the beginning of RT about mixing characters between the games.

A Rogue Trader rank 1 character is expressly equal to a Rank 5 DH character, according to Page 34 of the RT corebook.

Inquisitor Terminator armour provides 12 armour all around and is already considered best craftsmen ship (on top of all the other rules it gets, like force-field and hurt daemons). Grey Knight Terminator armour provides 14 armour all around, which is better then Inquisitor Terminator armour. Same thing with the Death Watch Terminator Armour, they also provide 14 armour all around.

Necrosis wrote:Inquisitor Terminator armour provides 12 armour all around and is already considered best craftsmen ship (on top of all the other rules it gets, like force-field and hurt daemons). Grey Knight Terminator armour provides 14 armour all around, which is better then Inquisitor Terminator armour. Same thing with the Death Watch Terminator Armour, they also provide 14 armour all around.

Wow, talk about broken telephone. We started with where are SoB trained, and now we're talking about TDA armor ratings.

I think you make a valid point TermiesInARaider. I withdraw my last argument in this topic.

Necrosis wrote:I think you make a valid point TermiesInARaider. I withdraw my last argument in this topic.

It wasn't as much of a criticism as it was an amused statement. I personally don't mind, though I'm sure some of the Admin's would prefer you take this to your own thread if you have more to speak about it.

Beaviz81 wrote:I can actually see an Abbess telling a young Sororita she don't think the organization is right for her as she lack the bone-hammered home point of view of her sisters f.ex. and releasing her, or finding the young woman to inquisitive to be of any use. Neither warrants death, but neither is fit for such an organization.

Um, Beaviz, these have all been veteran Sororitas of many years experience, not some noviate. The one that became a Rogue Trader was a celestian, IIRC (been trying to find which book this appears in. I remember reading it, and in a nutshell, she gets granted the warrent of the Rogue trader she's travelling with. I seem to recall it happening during the Crusade that founded the sector, but can't find the specific reference. Too damn many books) I tgets a passing reference in BoM but not the whole story. The process that one of them becomes a cardinal is unexplained, but the one where they become an Inquisitor seems to be simply that the Inquisitor names one an Interregator (or even a full Inquisitor) and off they go. (interestingly, it seems, reading BoM that this can run the other way too, an Inquisitor can name a person to the Sisterhood, and off they go. Why this is is NOT EXPLAINED.)

And the Abbess hasn't told any of them anything for quite a while, having been lost in the warp quite a while ago...

Extra: Might want to source that 12 AP, Osrin's armor at the end up Radical's Handbook simply states that it's ancient Terminator armor.

BaronIveagh wrote:First: There is a serious problem with the idea of the Sororitas being united. That being that there currently is no Abbess, and has not been since the previous one was lost to the warp.

Of course, this doesn't actually change much about their connections as detailed in the Liber Sororitas. Furthermore, the Canonesses still meet to vote on stuff. It's how new Abbesses are determined.

BaronIveagh wrote:Second: GW falls into the 'Math Hole' again. If there are currently fewer then 30,000 sisters, and orders majoris currently have 3,000 to 4,000 sisters, this means that there are insufficient battle sisters to outfit all the named orders at their canon levels, let alone the orders minors for whom actual numbers are unavailable (even at the 'as few as 100' levels suggested).
(We'll just hand-waive how 30,000 anything isn't enough to ride herd on an entire planet even at a 'mere'5 billion humans, let alone 500 billion humans...)

You see a conflict where none exists. ~30k is the headcount given for the Major Orders, totals for how many Sisters are in the Minor Orders are unavailable as is the number of Minor Orders itself. For those, all you can do is make an educated guess based on how quickly the Sisterhood grew over the first couple millennia when the Minor Orders were still non-existent. Personally, I'm thus assuming something between 50k and 100k.

As for the small size, it fits when you keep in mind how the Adepta Sororitas work. They're not line infantry to be wasted in trench wars. They come down in landers and drop pods to take out an enemy by striking at his heart, or they are simply the vanguard of a much larger force of Imperials consisting of allied Imperial Guard and/or the masses of zealous Frateris Militia led into battle by Ecclesiarchy clerics. It's either that, or small-scale engagements where they scour a Hive for hidden mutants and heretic cults amongst the civilian populace, or act as guards for various VIPs, holy sites or pilgrim trecks. Though that doesn't quite qualify as warfare. Anyways, their numbers, combined with the grade of their equipment and training, are certainly enough to fulfill these roles.

BaronIveagh wrote:Point of fact though, you're referring back to 1st edition, which has been retconned so hard it bounced...

I do believe that even newer material still talks of Space Marine Chapters preferring barbarian tribes for recruitment as they tend to produce more resilient and warlike candidates than a civilized world.

BaronIveagh wrote:Unless you leave. BoM has a serious incongruity between 'Sisters never leave the order' when earlier 'Sisters have left the order to become inquisitors, cardinals, and Rogue Traders'.

Well, yes - sort of. I was specifically referring to "washing out" and not a honorable transfer, as the latter are referenced in studio material where it is said that in rare cases a Sister may be called to higher office elsewhere in the Imperium.

BaronIveagh wrote:That last one also flushes the whole 'no sex' vow right down the toilet, as a Rogue Trader would need to reproduce to continue the line. (Which they did, apparently, since the line is not on the list of Rogue Trader warrants that have died out, despite being the only member of the house.)

Technically, it is entirely possible for a Rogue Trader's Warrant to be transferred not to blood relatives but to, say, one's most trusted officer. Such technicalties are usually outlined in the contract when drafted, and unless we assume that a Sororitas suddenly abandons her monastic mindset and turns into an egocentric capitalist overnight it doesn't take much to assume she would care for the fate of her endeavour more than what she as an individual has to do with it, let alone the importance of a blood succession.

Assuming you are following BL/FFG's fluff at all, of course. I for one find the idea of "Sororitas Rogue Traders" somewhat far-fetched, and given that this is not the only example of where these books leave more room to a player's creativity than other sources, this is quite simply where my disclaimer comes into play.

Necrosis wrote:As both the witch hunter codex and several dark heresy supplements are written by the same person.

Then again, they also clearly contradict each other on various instances. The person who wrote them is the one I cited with saying "no obligation for consistency".

Although it is probably worth pointing out that Andy Hoare did not write the Witch Hunter Codex alone, just like he did not write these DH supplements alone. It was a team-effort, and as such likely influenced by whoever else was working on these projects.

Necrosis wrote:Inquisitor Terminator armour provides 12 armour all around and is already considered best craftsmen ship (on top of all the other rules it gets, like force-field and hurt daemons). Grey Knight Terminator armour provides 14 armour all around, which is better then Inquisitor Terminator armour. Same thing with the Death Watch Terminator Armour, they also provide 14 armour all around.

Ahh, yes, Dark Heresy and its "civilian" equipment. I still maintain that inventing this difference between human and Astartes gear created one of the worst contradictions of the entire RPG line.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Is there anything so critical or crucial to the faction that is irrevocably harmed if the SoB (or some of them, or all of them, or none of them) should happen to engage in procreative acts? Or be absolutely celibate?

Jumping in there, I have to say that there is an important aspect about this. Actually, three important aspects. For one, celibacy is often equated to purity, and certainly the Adepta Sororitas are all about this. Secondly, celibacy is also a commitment to their duty and so to the Emperor. Thirdly, all Adepta Sororitas are specifically stated to live in a regime of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work", so them not caring about a few of them going off to have some fun in the sheets does sound a bit odd. Especially when they have about 40.000 rules to follow, regulating just about everything they do from day to day.

Taking away the chastity would, in my personal opinion, harm the factional identity. It's why I've always been so unforgiving on those Cain satires.

Psienesis wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:Sister's of battle seem ignorant

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Also i believe the SoB are so succesfull because the foe can often get distracted by the *ehm...* wiew when they charge into battle

Necrosis wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Most accurate? By what standard?

They're just the most specific. But there's a distinct difference between precision and accuracy, lol.

Maybe by the examples I showed above but no go ahead, ignore my examples that show the rules to be more accurate and precise.

You're still confused as to what is accuracy and what is precision, lol.


You can be precise by shooting ten bullets in a 3 inch group, seventeen feet off the target. Your accuracy was terrible though.


What the FFG games are, cannot be called accurate, because there exists no adequate evidence of what the target mark is.

Lynata wrote:Of course, this doesn't actually change much about their connections as detailed in the Liber Sororitas. Furthermore, the Canonesses still meet to vote on stuff. It's how new Abbesses are determined.

BoM gives an instance where two orders develop a dislike so intense that the Inquisition has to intervene to keep it from breaking into violence. I would not call that unity.l

Lynata wrote:
You see a conflict where none exists. ~30k is the headcount given for the Major Orders, totals for how many Sisters are in the Minor Orders are unavailable as is the number of Minor Orders itself. For those, all you can do is make an educated guess based on how quickly the Sisterhood grew over the first couple millennia when the Minor Orders were still non-existent. Personally, I'm thus assuming something between 50k and 100k.

Except that's not what it says. (and even if your numbers are right, they're still wildly below what they need to be if fluff is right, and far less than the number of, say, Space Marines.)

Lynata wrote:
As for the small size, it fits when you keep in mind how the Adepta Sororitas work.

As the dedicated assault troops of the Ecclesiarchy.

Lynata wrote:
They're not line infantry to be wasted in trench wars.

They don't call it the Death Korps for nothing. (sorry, some IG humor)

Lynata wrote:
They come down in landers and drop pods to take out an enemy by striking at his heart, or they are simply the vanguard of a much larger force of Imperials consisting of allied Imperial Guard..

Those are Space Marines, not SoB.

Lynata wrote:
Anyways, their numbers, combined with the grade of their equipment and training, are certainly enough to fulfill these roles.

Sure, for a single sector, maybe, if the don't guard anyone below Cardinals and Imperial Governors. The sort of deployment we see in fluff would be impossible.

Lynata wrote:I do believe that even newer material still talks of Space Marine Chapters preferring barbarian tribes for recruitment as they tend to produce more resilient and warlike candidates than a civilized world.

Varies with chapter, however, they're taking them young enough that it frankly wouldn't matter as long as they passed the genetics tests.

Lynata wrote:Technically, it is entirely possible for a Rogue Trader's Warrant to be transferred not to blood relatives but to, say, one's most trusted officer. Such technicalties are usually outlined in the contract when drafted, and unless we assume that a Sororitas suddenly abandons her monastic mindset and turns into an egocentric capitalist overnight it doesn't take much to assume she would care for the fate of her endeavour more than what she as an individual has to do with it, let alone the importance of a blood succession.

I might point out that the take over in question was what in this day and age is termed a hostile take over. So I'd say either she was egocentric befor boarding, or sizing the warrant in question was premeditated by either the Inquisition or the Ecchlesiarchy. The fact that the warrant became her's permanently suggests the latter. Since his heirs and not the crew and officers (who are usually the 'heirs' in a warrant that is transferable in the manner you describe) were the ones that protested this, it's fair to assume that there was an 'and their heirs' clause to it, or otherwise they wouldn't have had any grounds.

Lynata wrote:
Assuming you are following BL/FFG's fluff at all, of course. I for one find the idea of "Sororitas Rogue Traders" somewhat far-fetched, and given that this is not the only example of where these books leave more room to a player's creativity than other sources, this is quite simply where my disclaimer comes into play.

No more than a planet totally abandoned by the SoB suddenly sprouting nine full strength Orders minoris to oppose a random CSM incursion. That's some damn rapid recruiting, training, and fitting out there.

Lynata wrote:Then again, they also clearly contradict each other on various instances. The person who wrote them is the one I cited with saying "no obligation for consistency".

This I can't argue with. They also reprinted some of the same inconsistencies from C:SoB back in 2nd. Personally, I think the inconsistencies are something GW shoe horns in.

Although it is probably worth pointing out that Andy Hoare did not write the Witch Hunter Codex alone, just like he did not write these DH supplements alone. It was a team-effort, and as such likely influenced by whoever else was working on these projects.

Lynata wrote:Ahh, yes, Dark Heresy and its "civilian" equipment. I still maintain that inventing this difference between human and Astartes gear created one of the worst contradictions of the entire RPG line.

It also contradicts itself. Human holdable bolters can have identical stats to Astartes bolters, the ammo is just harder to get. Assuming her Term armor for Inq stats are correct, again, add impact gel and Lathe Wrought and it's not only 14 all around, it halves pen.

Lynata wrote:Jumping in there, I have to say that there is an important aspect about this. Actually, three important aspects. For one, celibacy is often equated to purity, and certainly the Adepta Sororitas are all about this. Secondly, celibacy is also a commitment to their duty and so to the Emperor. Thirdly, all Adepta Sororitas are specifically stated to live in a regime of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work", so them not caring about a few of them going off to have some fun in the sheets does sound a bit odd. Especially when they have about 40.000 rules to follow, regulating just about everything they do from day to day.

Taking away the chastity would, in my personal opinion, harm the factional identity. It's why I've always been so unforgiving on those Cain satires.

And let's not forget the 2nd ed codex. You need to be unforgiving of it too.

And I'm having a hard time picturing them doing arduous work as every single description in fluff I've found has them living in palatial abbeys filled with servants...

BaronIveagh wrote:It also contradicts itself. Human holdable bolters can have identical stats to Astartes bolters, the ammo is just harder to get. Assuming her Term armor for Inq stats are correct, again, add impact gel and Lathe Wrought and it's not only 14 all around, it halves pen.

Human bolters are no where near the level of a space marine version. Also any gm who knows much about the Mechancius would not let you perform those upgrades on your armour, as they would refuse to alter Terminator Armour. At that point, that is no longer even regular Terminator armour but modified terminator armour. Also if you want to say humans can get special ammunition, so can space marines.

Human Bolter: 1d10+5x pen 4, no special rules.
Space Marine Bolter: 1d10+9x pen 4, Tearing (meaning they roll 1d10 twice and choose the highest).

They abduct orphans and train them worship of a religion that has nothing to do with the psyker they worship

BaronIveagh wrote:

Lynata wrote:Jumping in there, I have to say that there is an important aspect about this. Actually, three important aspects. For one, celibacy is often equated to purity, and certainly the Adepta Sororitas are all about this. Secondly, celibacy is also a commitment to their duty and so to the Emperor. Thirdly, all Adepta Sororitas are specifically stated to live in a regime of "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work", so them not caring about a few of them going off to have some fun in the sheets does sound a bit odd. Especially when they have about 40.000 rules to follow, regulating just about everything they do from day to day.

Taking away the chastity would, in my personal opinion, harm the factional identity. It's why I've always been so unforgiving on those Cain satires.

And let's not forget the 2nd ed codex. You need to be unforgiving of it too.

And I'm having a hard time picturing them doing arduous work as every single description in fluff I've found has them living in palatial abbeys filled with servants...

It should be kept in mind that the Caiphas Cain novel where this is looked at was about a sister that was very far removed from the wider Order, stationed on a distant location. It's not hard to imagine one finding solace in human companionship in such circumstances, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that this means that frequently engaging in hanky-panky at the convent is acceptable.

Melissia wrote:[ they have no vow of chastity, the Sisters are dedicated to their cause above all else, living a life of self-denial in complete dedication to the Emperor.

Isn't that a contradiction?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:It also contradicts itself. Human holdable bolters can have identical stats to Astartes bolters, the ammo is just harder to get. Assuming her Term armor for Inq stats are correct, again, add impact gel and Lathe Wrought and it's not only 14 all around, it halves pen.

Human bolters are no where near the level of a space marine version. Also any gm who knows much about the Mechancius would not let you perform those upgrades on your armour, as they would refuse to alter Terminator Armour. At that point, that is no longer even regular Terminator armour but modified terminator armour. Also if you want to say humans can get special ammunition, so can space marines.

Human Bolter: 1d10+5x pen 4, no special rules.
Space Marine Bolter: 1d10+9x pen 4, Tearing (meaning they roll 1d10 twice and choose the highest).

I loved the bit in mechanicum where that atheist tech-priest holds up a switch and explains. This is a simple machine 'but some people would have you believe that in order to make this work you have to appease some non-existent machine spirit inside it or else it won't work.'

BaronIveagh wrote:BoM gives an instance where two orders develop a dislike so intense that the Inquisition has to intervene to keep it from breaking into violence. I would not call that unity.

Oh, I'm not saying they all get along equally well - I am merely pointing out that they still have a uniform command hierarchy which culminates in the convent of Canonesses and ultimately the Ecclesiarch who should be quite capable of commanding the Sisterhood without outside interference from the Inquisition, and that there isn't that much room for variance in their teachings that some Orders would suddenly forget all about focus on servitude and penance and instead allow their members to "enjoy themselves" in this way.

I don't place much faith (do ho ho) on the BoM as it and other BI/FFG books clash with Codex material elsewhere, though I've already covered my stance regarding licensed material in my "disclaimer".

BaronIveagh wrote:Except that's not what it says. (and even if your numbers are right, they're still wildly below what they need to be if fluff is right, and far less than the number of, say, Space Marines.)

The 30k are from the 2E Codex (actually the only GW source that talks about SoB numbers in detail), and the context clearly refers to the Major Orders alone - so that is what it says. And I don't see why 50-100k is "wildly below what they need to be", it fits to everything I've read so far, including the Force Disposition Charts on the Third War for Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade - see example here.

Perhaps we simply use incompatible sources, making for two incompatible perceptions of the setting. Given the absence of canon and the vast amount of interpretations of Sororitas to be found (especially throughout licensed fiction), this would seem likely.

BaronIveagh wrote:Those are Space Marines, not SoB.

No, that's the SoB, if used against a high-profile enemy. CJ #49 had an article about this: against an enemy such as an excommunicated Space Marine Chapter, a direct assault on their leader(s) is the recommended approach. It's pretty much the only instance they use drop pods at all, though. Lesser enemies are swept away in a direct frontal assault - but against lesser enemies, they don't need tens of thousands of Sisters either. In fact, the WH Codex did contain their deployment style, and it wasn't that big on numbers.

BaronIveagh wrote:Sure, for a single sector, maybe, if the don't guard anyone below Cardinals and Imperial Governors. The sort of deployment we see in fluff would be impossible.

Which deployment, exactly? The whopping 1.000 Battle Sisters fighting against the Orks on Armageddon? The 15.000 Sisters who set out to repel the 13th Black Crusade? Or their complete absence on the holy sites of Bladen which saw a bunch of Cadians and the Bishop face the CSM invaders without any Sisters to help defend the Cathedral?

They are quite simply not as numerous as the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines. They keep a more public profile, but they are not everywhere. As a military force they are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, not counting the profound effect they have upon Imperial morale.

BaronIveagh wrote:No more than a planet totally abandoned by the SoB suddenly sprouting nine full strength Orders minoris to oppose a random CSM incursion. That's some damn rapid recruiting, training, and fitting out there.

San Leor, the very root of the Adepta Sororitas, totally abandoned by them? Where did you read that?

BaronIveagh wrote:This I can't argue with. They also reprinted some of the same inconsistencies from C:SoB back in 2nd. Personally, I think the inconsistencies are something GW shoe horns in.

Which inconsistencies are you referring to?
What is "special" about Sororitas fluff is that, as we learn in the designer's notes of the Witch Hunters Codex, their authors have taken great care not to contradict anything previously published, all the way back to their first appearance in the original 1E Rogue Trader book. As such, Sisters fluff is probably one of the most consistent things of the entire setting.

BaronIveagh wrote:It also contradicts itself. Human holdable bolters can have identical stats to Astartes bolters, the ammo is just harder to get.

The stats for weapons and equipment have jumped a lot, depending on where you look. The first Marine bolter showed up in a DH adventure and was just 2d10, exactly like the supposed "human" variant using Astartes ammo in the Inquisitor's Handbook. In the same adventure, Marine power armour was AP8, too, which it still was in the free Deathwatch introduction, but bolters were suddenly 2d10+5. Then, in the full version, Marine power armour was suddenly AP10. And I think the latest errata has since "nerfed" bolters back to 1d10+9 (though this isn't much of a difference in terms of average damage)...

Now, I appreciate the writers' desire to iron out perceived flaws, but ultimately this results in a lot of chaos and, perhaps most unfortunate, missing compatibility between the various books of the RPG themselves. Then again, it's a P&P, and house rules are easily drafted. I also understand that the Deathwatch RPG is quite simply intended to deliver a different kind of combat experience, and the stats in its books as well as certain talents for the player characters reflect this.

BaronIveagh wrote:And I'm having a hard time picturing them doing arduous work as every single description in fluff I've found has them living in palatial abbeys filled with servants...

You mean the novices? Or were those descriptions from sources other than GW?

A saying from a Sororitas Canoness from the 3E rulebook springs to mind: "It is our belief that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in suffering we are one with our God-Emperor."

Actually the machine spirit does exist, their are even rules for it, such as humans wearing space marine equipment will make the machine spirit mad and make malfunction more often or do other crazy stuff that it is not suppose to.

Necrosis wrote:
Human bolters are no where near the level of a space marine version. Also any gm who knows much about the Mechancius would not let you perform those upgrades on your armour, as they would refuse to alter Terminator Armour. At that point, that is no longer even regular Terminator armour but modified terminator armour. Also if you want to say humans can get special ammunition, so can space marines.

Human Bolter: 1d10+5x pen 4, no special rules.
Space Marine Bolter: 1d10+9x pen 4, Tearing (meaning they roll 1d10 twice and choose the highest).

Turn to page 50, Hostile Acquisitions. It's reliable AND holy, on top having the same stat line as a SM bolter. It's description even states it's similar to those used by the Adeptus Astartes.

And, btw: those are AdMech approved Power armor modifications, available as options on your power armor from the Lathes. And if that;'s what you think of terminator armor, you might want to run over to FW and tell them that the AdMech would never permit their new terminator armor variants.

"Originally developed during the closing years of the Great Crusade, and adapted from the heaviest of industrial gear, several types and patterns were developed concurrently." - Forge World, fluff for Tartaros pattern Terminator armor.

*Turns to page 50*
It the intro to the Aribitor Class.

Edit: Woops, wrong book!

Lynata wrote:
Perhaps we simply use incompatible sources, making for two incompatible perceptions of the setting. Given the absence of canon and the vast amount of interpretations of Sororitas to be found (especially throughout licensed fiction), this would seem likely.

I'd say that's the case here. I don't put much stock in any of them, but I know the history of real world orders that were thier basis, and it's never, ever worked in the way you describe.

The problem with 40k is that the moment any hint of reality or how people actually work, even religious crazies, it falls apart. 40k depends on absolutes the way Alec Baldwin depends on cocaine.

If you are talking about the Boltgun (Archeotech), it say these boltgun may have been used by space marines and that a person needs to have a strength bonus of 6 (meaning 60 strength, which is high) or it counts as a heavy weapon (meaning you need to be a space marine to use it normal since space marines have x2 strenght bonus).

impact gel only works against impact damage (so when your getting hit by explosives, laser and other types of damage that isn't impact, your impact gel won't help) and Lathe Wrought is near unique and terminator armour is unique, so manging to combine the two, would create a very personal armour that almost no one else would have (and require excellent relationship with the Mechancius to make such armour and it would take a long time to build it).

Dating an sob is suicide

Necrosis wrote:If you are talking about the Boltgun (Archeotech), it say these boltgun may have been used by space marines and that a person needs to have a strength bonus of 6 (meaning 60 strength, which is high) or it counts as a heavy weapon.

Might want to re-read that. It says that it was possibly used by warriors during the earliest days of the Imperium and mentions the bolt and claw emblems. These were the Emperor's symbols during the Unification wars, before SM existed.

The Strength requirement is not due to being used by SM. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thunder_Warriors#.T5ynddWcLHQ

Necrosis wrote:
impact gel only works against impact damage (so when your getting hit by explosives, laser and other types of damage that isn't impact, your impact gel won't help) and Lathe Wrought is near unique and terminator armour is unique, so manging to combine the two, would create a very personal armour that almost no one else would have (and require excellent relationship with the Mechancius to make such armour and it would take a long time to build it).

The Lathe Wrought thing was just to make it better then SM terminator armor. And there are compatible additions for the armor for each of the damage types.

IIRC there was one of the bodysuits that stacked (but I could not find what book it was in), or you could get subdermal armor for all around 14.

In the end it still isn't your regular civilian/human bolter. It is a special bolter/holy relic that if your seen carrying it will attract attention that you don't want (such as being attacked by Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus). So your original point of a human bolter being as strong as a space marine bolter is invalid. Or if you want I can make the comparison more fair by comparing it to a special bolter that is used in death watch.

Lathe Wrought will make it better then space marine Armour but it will take so long to gain the required requisition and then build it, that one of the the following thee will happen:
A: "Your character is killed off"
B: "Your character retires"
C: "Your character is one of the greatest heroes ever seen in this sector"

Also armour can only receive a certain number of upgrades (generally 3 for most armour but the GM can change it). For Terminator armour, since it is automatically best craftsmen ship and unique I would actually say 0 or 1 at most. Now if you want to pull out all the stops and say well I'm going to use all these modifications, lets compare it to dreadknight armour. Cause the fact is your changing the armour completely and be doing stuff that a lot of gms would not allow or we can apply those same upgrades to the space marine version.

Also can you tell me what book Subdermal armour is in?

Necrosis wrote:In the end it still isn't your regular civilian/human bolter. It is a special bolter/holy relic that if your seen carrying it will attract attention that you don't want (such as being attacked by Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus). So your original point of a human bolter being as strong as a space marine bolter is invalid. Or if you want I can make the comparison more fair by comparing it to a special bolter that is used in death watch.

Ok, let me dismantel this argument.

A) It does not say that owning one is an automatically be attacked by the Admech (anymore then an archeotech ship part) or the Ecclesiarchy. It states that particular ambitious cardinals, on seeing it, think it Heresy to own one (not that it's actually Heresy as defined by the majority of the ministorum or the Inq). Meaning if they have a good reason that a mere Cardinal has a hard time disputing without jeopardizing his own position, he's going to overlook it. (Possible Rogue Trader responses: 'It was given with my warrant 10k years ago, and see it's signed by the Emperor himself!' [possibly true, warrants that old are known, and ones signed by the big E do exist] 'I'm an Inquisitorial agent and here are my credentials. [the current sector synod has enough bickering and secrets that making [more] enemies in the Tricorne is something they would like to avoid. Particularly since there are a variety of ways for a Rogue Trader to also be an agent of the I ]

B) Your response basically boils down to 'it's invalid because it's extremely rare!' This holds no water as every last Rogue Trader has a Starship, which is much rarer. Park at Scintilla and wait a few weeks and you could probably get a dozen Relic Boltguns. You'll only be able to get one starship, and that's if you're very, very lucky. (And remember, when it comes to getting attention, sometimes that's the point of having it in the first place).

Further, it's no rarer than, say, the Drayloth Chain cannon {Lure of the Expanse}, and a hell of a lot less powerful.

Necrosis wrote:
Lathe Wrought will make it better then space marine Armour but it will take so long to gain the required requisition and then build it, that one of the the following thee will happen:
A: "Your character is killed off"
B: "Your character retires"
C: "Your character is one of the greatest heroes ever seen in this sector"

Or you might make it across the Expanse and back once. You're forgetting that peculiarity of warp travel that says 'time on the ship does not equal time in realspace'. The GM does have to keep track of these two separate time tracks, as time outside the warp quickly piles up relative to time inside the warp.

Necrosis wrote:
Also armour can only receive a certain number of upgrades (generally 3 for most armour but the GM can change it). For Terminator armour, since it is automatically best craftsmen ship and unique I would actually say 0 or 1 at most. Now if you want to pull out all the stops and say well I'm going to use all these modifications, lets compare it to dreadknight armour. Cause the fact is your changing the armour completely and be doing stuff that a lot of gms would not allow or we can apply those same upgrades to the space marine version.

Also can you tell me what book Subdermal armour is in?

GMs should worry more about Teleportarium + Murder Servitors. And, sadly, I don't have the Dreadknight handy, but with dreadknights you run into the issue of is there room for it in a starship hallway? (The answer is usually no, and if it's yes, there are far worse things to send over then a dreadknight. So far I've seen angry grox hopped up on 'slaught, Battle Sisters with heavy flamers, and a thermonuclear weapon [damn you stargate] teleported)

It's bad enough they try to tool around in a Leman Russ, if they're wearing Dreadknights, I'm breaking out the Hruud migration.

Subdermal armor is Page 151 of the Rogue Trader core book.

Also: just play a Tech Priest/Explorator or take the Augmentacist alternate rank - It's been ruled that the Machine Trait stacks with armor, so, yeah, Augmentacist in Termie armor = Dreadknight without all that armor alteration buisness.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Ok, let me dismantel this argument.

A) It does not say that owning one is an automatically be attacked by the Admech (anymore then an archeotech ship part) or the Ecclesiarchy. It states that particular ambitious cardinals, on seeing it, think it Heresy to own one (not that it's actually Heresy as defined by the majority of the ministorum or the Inq). Meaning if they have a good reason that a mere Cardinal has a hard time disputing without jeopardizing his own position, he's going to overlook it. (Possible Rogue Trader responses: 'It was given with my warrant 10k years ago, and see it's signed by the Emperor himself!' [possibly true, warrants that old are known, and ones signed by the big E do exist] 'I'm an Inquisitorial agent and here are my credentials. [the current sector synod has enough bickering and secrets that making [more] enemies in the Tricorne is something they would like to avoid. Particularly since there are a variety of ways for a Rogue Trader to also be an agent of the I ]

B) Your response basically boils down to 'it's invalid because it's extremely rare!' This holds no water as every last Rogue Trader has a Starship, which is much rarer. Park at Scintilla and wait a few weeks and you could probably get a dozen Relic Boltguns. You'll only be able to get one starship, and that's if you're very, very lucky. (And remember, when it comes to getting attention, sometimes that's the point of having it in the first place).

Alright, since were throwing out the extremely rare (by extremely rare I mean near unique) lets compare that bolter to a skapulan bolter which does 2d10+9x with a pen of 7, with the accurate (so you can do more damage), Tearing,and never jams, and when you roll between a 96-100 you get to reroll it. So in the end a common space marine bolter is a better then a common human bolter (if you want to call it common) and a very rare space marine bolter is better then a very rare human bolter.

Or you might make it across the Expanse and back once. You're forgetting that peculiarity of warp travel that says 'time on the ship does not equal time in realspace'. The GM does have to keep track of these two separate time tracks, as time outside the warp quickly piles up relative to time inside the warp.

You did not understand my argument, I should have been more clear, Terminator armour takes decades to build (it says so in it rules), if your going to use Lathe Wrought to build it (cause Lathe Wrought is what you build the Armour with, it not something you attach to it) that means it as to be built from the start. So enjoy waiting at least 20 years for that armour to be built, after you have gotten enough influence with the Ordo Mallues and Mechancius to build it.

GMs should worry more about Teleportarium + Murder Servitors. And, sadly, I don't have the Dreadknight handy, but with dreadknights you run into the issue of is there room for it in a starship hallway? (The answer is usually no, and if it's yes, there are far worse things to send over then a dreadknight. So far I've seen angry grox hopped up on 'slaught, Battle Sisters with heavy flamers, and a thermonuclear weapon [damn you stargate] teleported)

It's bad enough they try to tool around in a Leman Russ, if they're wearing Dreadknights, I'm breaking out the Hruud migration.

Subdermal armor is Page 151 of the Rogue Trader core book.

Also: just play a Tech Priest/Explorator or take the Augmentacist alternate rank - It's been ruled that the Machine Trait stacks with armor, so, yeah, Augmentacist in Termie armor = Dreadknight without all that armor alteration buisness.

Umm no.
Machine Trait with terminator armour does not make you a dread knight.
Dreadknight has 100 wounds, Strength and Toughness of 75, unnatural strength and toughness x3, agility 40 (the wounds and stats replace yours), has a forcefield that never overloads, starts off with two doomfists (which adds 1 to your unnatural strenght meaning your striking with unnatural strength x4, use a psychic power and now your at unnatural strength 5) and has a personal teleporter.

The problem is that your taking the best stuff a human can get and comparing it to the regular stuff a space marine can get and then saying humans get equipment that is just as good as space marine or better. You either compare regular human stuff to regular space marine stuff or compare the best human equipment to the best space marine equipment. In either cases the space marine will win.

Edit:

Also I took a look at the Ascension book, to even get terminator armour with Lathe Wrought would be near impossible. As getting Terminator Armour is unique (-70 penalty to requisition it), wanting to keep it (-20) and the Lathe Wrought is near unique (-50) for a total of (-140). Do you know how much influence a new inquisitor has? 40, which means he automatically fails by 100. How much does a well establish Inquisitor have? 70. What about an Inquisitor Lord? 110, which is still an automatic fail. The only people that have a chance is the Members of the Calixian Conclave's High Council, Lord-Sector Hax with 130 influence if they have a good reputation with the Ordo Malleus which gives them a plus 20 on the roll. Meaning they have to roll a 10 or less. Now their are two other people/group that might be able to get it. The Entire Conclave with 150 influence and the most powerful Inquisitor in the Sector with 150 influence. Which means they need to roll a 30 or less. And then wait at-least 20 years for the Armour to be build. So effectively, your character won't be getting that Armour, as your character would have to become the most powerful Inquisitor in the entire sector.

Necrosis wrote:
Alright, since were throwing out the extremely rare (by extremely rare I mean near unique) lets compare that bolter to a skapulan bolter which does 2d10+9x with a pen of 7, with the accurate (so you can do more damage), Tearing,and never jams, and when you roll between a 96-100 you get to reroll it. So in the end a common space marine bolter is a better then a common human bolter (if you want to call it common) and a very rare space marine bolter is better then a very rare human bolter.

Unless your target is daemonic or from beyond, at which point the Human one is still better out of the box due to the double damage from Holy. (and the reroll is actually pretty useless)

Necrosis wrote:
You did not understand my argument, I should have been more clear, Terminator armour takes decades to build (it says so in it rules), if your going to use Lathe Wrought to build it (cause Lathe Wrought is what you build the Armour with, it not something you attach to it) that means it as to be built from the start. So enjoy waiting at least 20 years for that armour to be built, after you have gotten enough influence with the Ordo Mallues and Mechancius to build it.

Or use Good Reputation: Mechanicus and make a hard Commerce check, possibly sweetening the deal with archeotech from the expanse. And then go about your business. You'll probably wrack up that 20 years of real time in 5 years or so worth of warp transitions.

Necrosis wrote:
Umm no.
Machine Trait with terminator armour does not make you a dread knight.
Dreadknight has 100 wounds, Strength and Toughness of 75, unnatural strength and toughness x3, agility 40 (the wounds and stats replace yours), has a forcefield that never overloads, starts off with two doomfists (which adds 1 to your unnatural strenght meaning your striking with unnatural strength x4, use a psychic power and now your at unnatural strength 5) and has a personal teleporter.

Dear Emperor, that would never, ever ever be allowed in my game. The damn players would steal it immediately if they didn't blow it to smithereens on the 2nd turn. (I should tell you the trick they used at Rank 3 to kill an entire squad of Necron Pariahs in one shot without using a lance strike)

Other than the 100 wounds (25 wound limit for players), strength, and Doomfists, I'm fairly certain I can do a pretty good imitation of one though. It'd probably top out around 75, statwise, but I'd have to do the math.

Necrosis wrote: In either cases the space marine will win.

See above for exception. Further, as far as SM gear being universally superior, I'll name another one: the Haywire grenade from Rogue Trader always produces effects 61-100 that the SM EMP grenade does. It knocks everything out for 1d5 rounds, possibly including that Dreadknight.

And a vortex grenade is a Vortex Grenade, no matter who's holding it.

Necrosis wrote:
Also I took a look at the Ascension book, to even get terminator armour with Lathe Wrought would be near impossible. As getting Terminator Armour is unique (-70 penalty to requisition it), wanting to keep it (-20) and the Lathe Wrought is near unique (-50) for a total of (-140). Do you know how much influence a new inquisitor has? 40, which means he automatically fails by 100.

Use a Rogue Trader, the penalty is only -70 using Acquisition (since you don't check twice, just once using the higher rarity [Unique]) rather than Influence and you can almost do it at level 1 if you rolled well on Profit or min-maxed using the Warrant paths. You're also overlooking that the Rogue Trader can modify the Acquisition check as if his profit factor were higher than it is.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Necrosis wrote:
Alright, since were throwing out the extremely rare (by extremely rare I mean near unique) lets compare that bolter to a skapulan bolter which does 2d10+9x with a pen of 7, with the accurate (so you can do more damage), Tearing,and never jams, and when you roll between a 96-100 you get to reroll it. So in the end a common space marine bolter is a better then a common human bolter (if you want to call it common) and a very rare space marine bolter is better then a very rare human bolter.

Unless your target is daemonic or from beyond, at which point the Human one is still better out of the box due to the double damage from Holy. (and the reroll is actually pretty useless)

Necrosis wrote:
You did not understand my argument, I should have been more clear, Terminator armour takes decades to build (it says so in it rules), if your going to use Lathe Wrought to build it (cause Lathe Wrought is what you build the Armour with, it not something you attach to it) that means it as to be built from the start. So enjoy waiting at least 20 years for that armour to be built, after you have gotten enough influence with the Ordo Mallues and Mechancius to build it.

Or use Good Reputation: Mechanicus and make a hard Commerce check, possibly sweetening the deal with archeotech from the expanse. And then go about your business. You'll probably wrack up that 20 years of real time in 5 years or so worth of warp transitions.

Necrosis wrote:
Umm no.
Machine Trait with terminator armour does not make you a dread knight.
Dreadknight has 100 wounds, Strength and Toughness of 75, unnatural strength and toughness x3, agility 40 (the wounds and stats replace yours), has a forcefield that never overloads, starts off with two doomfists (which adds 1 to your unnatural strenght meaning your striking with unnatural strength x4, use a psychic power and now your at unnatural strength 5) and has a personal teleporter.

Dear Emperor, that would never, ever ever be allowed in my game. The damn players would steal it immediately if they didn't blow it to smithereens on the 2nd turn. (I should tell you the trick they used at Rank 3 to kill an entire squad of Necron Pariahs in one shot without using a lance strike)

Other than the 100 wounds (25 wound limit for players), strength, and Doomfists, I'm fairly certain I can do a pretty good imitation of one though. It'd probably top out around 75, statwise, but I'd have to do the math.

Necrosis wrote: In either cases the space marine will win.

See above for exception. Further, as far as SM gear being universally superior, I'll name another one: the Haywire grenade from Rogue Trader always produces effects 61-100 that the SM EMP grenade does. It knocks everything out for 1d5 rounds, possibly including that Dreadknight.

And a vortex grenade is a Vortex Grenade, no matter who's holding it.

Necrosis wrote:
Also I took a look at the Ascension book, to even get terminator armour with Lathe Wrought would be near impossible. As getting Terminator Armour is unique (-70 penalty to requisition it), wanting to keep it (-20) and the Lathe Wrought is near unique (-50) for a total of (-140). Do you know how much influence a new inquisitor has? 40, which means he automatically fails by 100.

Use a Rogue Trader, the penalty is only -70 using Acquisition (since you don't check twice, just once using the higher rarity [Unique]) rather than Influence and you can almost do it at level 1 if you rolled well on Profit or min-maxed using the Warrant paths. You're also overlooking that the Rogue Trader can modify the Acquisition check as if his profit factor were higher than it is.

I think were just going to have to agree to disagree, cause it seems me and you play this game in two different ways, such as how holy works, as it negates daemons toughness bonus from being a daemon. We can keep this argument up forever.

There can be no consensus, so agreeing to disagree is the best way to end a debate like this one.

It all depends on the specific source one is looking at, for they clearly differ on certain essential details. Such inconsistencies usually arise from comparisons between works of different origin (such as GW and FFG), or even between different "stages of evolution" of the same origin (like different editions or different games).

In the end it also boils down to who you think will be able to produce the best equipment - the Space Marines .. or the Adeptus Mechanicus itself?

Lynata wrote:There can be no consensus, so agreeing to disagree is the best way to end a debate like this one.

It all depends on the specific source one is looking at, for they clearly differ on certain essential details. Such inconsistencies usually arise from comparisons between works of different origin (such as GW and FFG), or even between different "stages of evolution" of the same origin (like different editions or different games).

In the end it also boils down to who you think will be able to produce the best equipment - the Space Marines .. or the Adeptus Mechanicus itself?

Well space marines can have tech marines who get all the advantages of tech priests.

Necrosis wrote:Well space marines can have tech marines who get all the advantages of tech priests.

Sure, they study on Mars for some time. Yet at best (assuming the AdMech divulges all its secrets to them ...) this would mean they can create the same kind of stuff, not something better.

When studio sources provide an explicit statement reflected throughout many years of material, which is then only contradicted by some licensed book whose authors freely admitted on not being that big about consistency, then all you can do is choose whether to follow GW's lead or one of the many outsourced interpretations. As Gav Thorpe said, neither would be wrong - but there is quite simply no common ground when talking about this level of detail.

Necrosis wrote:
I think were just going to have to agree to disagree, cause it seems me and you play this game in two different ways, such as how holy works, as it negates daemons toughness bonus from being a daemon. We can keep this argument up forever.

Sorry, you're correct on the Holy thing, was writing two posts about two different systems and got my wires crossed about Holy here and Holy over there.

And, no, I'm playing it with Rogue Trader's version of the Rules, and you're playing it with the DH version sprinkled with the DW version.




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Lynata wrote:
It all depends on the specific source one is looking at, for they clearly differ on certain essential details. Such inconsistencies usually arise from comparisons between works of different origin (such as GW and FFG), or even between different "stages of evolution" of the same origin (like different editions or different games).

Or sometimes the same book on different pages. (A problem caused by the new trend toward having several authors and editors, in order to produce the book faster.)

BaronIveagh wrote:
Sorry, you're correct on the Holy thing, was writing two posts about two different systems and got my wires crossed about Holy here and Holy over there.

And, no, I'm playing it with Rogue Trader's version of the Rules, and you're playing it with the DH version sprinkled with the DW version.

There is a rule in Ascension that stop you from using the Rogue Trader rules from acquiring gear from the Ascension Rulebook and supplements.

Necrosis wrote:
There is a rule in Ascension that stop you from using the Rogue Trader rules from acquiring gear from the Ascension Rulebook and supplements.

You might want to read Page 16 of Ascension then, as it states that a Rogue Trader can use their Profit. It is not interchangeable with Influence, but can be used along side it. Further, Profit is what Rogue Traders use in an opposed test against Influence when a Inquisitor wants something and the Rogue Trader doesn't want to deliver.

I read that unless the gm says otherwise, you cannot use it.

Necrosis wrote:I read that unless the gm says otherwise, you cannot use it.

That doesn't make sense then, as that would break RAW any time an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader wanted to influence one another.

It doesn't matter much though, there's a similar suit with more AP in Into the Storm that only counts as Extremely Rare.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Necrosis wrote:I read that unless the gm says otherwise, you cannot use it.

That doesn't make sense then, as that would break RAW any time an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader wanted to influence one another.

It doesn't matter much though, there's a similar suit with more AP in Into the Storm that only counts as Extremely Rare.

As I said before, lets just agree to disagree.

They are right in despising the psyker.

I read a book were they call the Astartes abhumans, the sisters of battle hate everyone but themselves and are treated like mad dogs even by the Inquisition.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:I read a book were they call the Astartes abhumans

The 2nd Edition Codex dealt with this a bit - it's actually an opinion that holds some weight in the entire Ecclesiarchy:

"[...] Also, it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly humans at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand, and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?" [...]

Ironically, the Sisters of Battle are somewhat more tempered than the Clergy ranks. Whilst there are undoubtedly lingering issues of trust and occasional conflict (such as Canoness Dissentia's attack on the Angels Vermillion in the wake of the Argent Shroud's mandate of policing other Imperial forces), on a whole, both organizations also harbor a certain degree of respect for each other. From the same Codex as the above quote:

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."

ZSO SAHALL wrote:the sisters of battle hate everyone but themselves and are treated like mad dogs even by the Inquisition.

Ehh ... I guess that depends on what novel you're reading. The individual authors' interpretation of these topics varies wildly. That being said, "the" Inquisition is a bit difficult to describe in general, as it is made up of so many different kinds of people with different styles and opinions. There are even Inquisitors who once were Sororitas themselves.

The SOB doesn't hate anybody but themselves. They can cooperate with other soldiers, and maybe even turn a blind eye to things not too sinful by the regiment depending on who is in charge and how good the officers and commissars of the regiment, and the Arbites is in quelling the dissident. Then again the only Sororitas which seems to can be able to at least listen to heretics are the Sisters Famolous, but even if it ain't sort of backed I think the Sisters Hospitalliers at least due being independent thinkers (probably as they can find themselves assigned to an IG-regiment as medics) also have a certain freedom there.

Well, the Hospitallers are excellent medics.... but will not hesitate to use their medical knowledge in the persecution of the Heretic. This is why the Inquisition relies on AdMech Magos Biologis in keeping captured Heretics alive, rather than the Sisters. The Sisters aren't going to keep the Heretic alive, feth what the Inquisitor says.

The Sister Hospitalliers, some of them are working alone, lets say attached to a regiment for years. No matter how pious the regiment, they have little piety compared to a Sororita. So they likely give some leeway.

I'm not sure you can say that a member of the Sororitas, in any place or time, has "little piety". Pious is what they are. It is the breath they draw, their reason for being. A Sister Hospitaller is a Sororitas... she is not, however, a Battle-Sister, as she is not in an Order Militant.

I sort of take the militarism of her as how much she has been in battle. A Sister Hospitallier serving 20 years with a regiment likely is as skilled in battle as any Sister of Battle, and I sort of think they ain't assigned before they enter the two convents on either Terra or Ophelia VII to anything, and trained with handling weapons depending on how late she was drafted to the Sister Hospitalliers who the Inquisitors prefer to have served with a IG-regiment before drafting them (which I interpret to mean that she is sort of of the skill of any Battle-Sister). However the mileage can vary of course depending on how you feel about doctors being warriors.

And it was little piety compared to.

A Sister is selected by an Order once she takes the Vow of Suffrage after her time spent as an Initiate. As they are products of the Schola Progenium, they will be versed with the basic weapons of the Imperium, but the use of the bolter, the flamer and the melta will not be part of the curriculum until a Sister joins one of the Orders Militant.

A Sister Hospitaller may serve with a Guard regiment (more likely with the Warmaster's HQ unit in the rear echelon, where their advanced medical skill will be of greater use in treating more and more-seriously wounded soldiers, and even more likely in an actual hospital in a civilian area that has been seriously affected by war or natural disaster) and so she may not actually gain that much combat experience... being that she's a doctor, not a soldier. She's perfectly capable of picking up a lasrifle if necessary, but it's not the primary function of the Sisters Hospitaller.

Even if she's been with that Guard Regiment for 20 years (though the Sisters Hospitaller are not exactly a MASH unit), she's not slogging it in the trenches with the dog-soldiers, it's not her job. Again, she's a doctor, it's her job to tend to the sick and injured, and her skills are best employed in a military hospital facility, rather than on the frontlines as a line medic or combat life-saver. Any IG infantry medic can patch a soldier up to give him the chance to get to the rear medical facility, where the Sister's expertise can come into play and treat this casualty and make him combat effective once more, whereas a normal, non-Sister doctor might write him off or, at best, give him the life of an invalid.

It would depend on how much she has been in battle. The Cantus-advance basically means a Sister Hospitallier, or any non-military Sororita can be equally competent in battle as the finest Battle-Sisters (I just think the Sister Hospitallier would be the most common holding that advance due to them being the most common Sisters that is actually seen). Heck it ain't uncommon for them to change sisterhoods. That seem to be a very common occurrence there, as Faith and Fire proved. The Battle-Sister there did things, and the Cannonness weighed her as too light for her sisterhood, yet she was not inducted into the Sister Repentia.

Keep in mind that much of the licensed material isn't inter-compatible. Hell, if you're looking at FFG's RPG, they even have two versions of Hospitaller and SoB each depending on which book you're looking at (Inquisitor's Handbook vs Blood of Martyrs) - with the newer Hospitaller using modified Adept advances to level, having no novice ranks whatsoever, and being issued a stub revolver as primary weapon.

Also, from the 3E Codex Witch Hunters:
"Sisters Hospitaller are often called to serve the Inquisition in a number of capacities. To a Witch Hunter, a surgeon's ability to keep a subject alive despite the most grievous of injuries is most useful. In the persecution of heretics, even a Sister Hospitaller will put aside her compassion, so great is her chagrin should a man turn his back upon the Blessed God-Emperor of Mankind."

Which makes way more sense than the Sisters allowing a heretic the release of an easy death, when you think about it. Thanks to first-hand experience, they are well-versed in the art of administering cleansing castigations, and Ophelia VII has some of the largest dungeons of the entire Imperium, where countless sinners repent day by day.
Which is why GW sold Hospitaller miniatures for the Inquisitorial Henchman squad - and not Magos' Biologis.

Anyways, it makes sense that a Sister Hospitaller would have some experience in wielding a weapon - they all went through Schola training, after all. However, their primary task is providing care for wounded faithful (with minor duties including purity control, or genealogical tests in concjunction with the Famulous), during which they remain protected. Them getting into combat themselves (by enemy attack or during a frontline rescue mission) would be a comparatively rare occasion, and certainly wouldn't suffice to bring the average Sister Hospitaller anywhere near the level of experience of a Sister Militant, who combines regular combat experience with rigorous training.

I sort of both agree and disagree with you Lynata, of course some of the more active Sister Hospitalliers will be doctors in name only (more often shooting their bolters in combat than doing surgery), but yeah, they will in general stay behind and organize the hospitals and do that sort of stuff more often than not, as that's were their skill lie (also, they most often travel in groups, as hospitals needs more than one doctor, and it seems stupid to not have much of the medical-staff as Sororitas). Of course it's my interpretation and you are free to dismiss it.

The one thing I'm wondering is whether the Orders Hospitaller have their own guards (sort of like "militant non-militant Sisters", or "pseudo-SoB" if you will) or if they rely on the Orders Militant / the Imperial Guard to provide security ...
If it's the latter, what about their own convent? Or would they just store some guns and pick them up only when needed?

Unfortunately, GW material on the Hospitaller is rather slim, and I can see it working both ways - "sentry duty" with armed nurses compared to Sisters who are members of the Hospitaller by name, yet have the equipment and duties of a Militant.

Probably, as I sort of think only a few advances from novices to full Sororitas (my interpretation is many join, few advance). Also I think you have the ones that is doctors in name only, and I'm glad you ain't dismissing my interpretations (however original they might be). I think the organization likely recruits hospital-security from within (most entering the convents ends up doing the boring stuff in my mind like making food-stuff, wiping dust and such you really don't want described).

GW like to give the fans a wide berth. Things should be varied, but I have come to agree with your more dogmatic view of the SOB Lynata.

In the end, none of our interpretations can be wrong, to quote Gav Thorpe. You're spot on about the wide berth, and even though this comes with the problematic "instability" of a common ground for discussions (or even cross-product consistency), at least this leaves us with the freedom to stick to a version we like.

It took me a while to accept this and I'd still rather have consistency, but it could be worse: The powers-that-be could enforce a vision polar to our own. And I'm sure all of us have seen at least one piece of Sisters fluff in a some novel or elsewhere we'd rather like to forget.

I'd imagine that the Sisters in a war-zone have the locals to depend on for defense of their hospital, under normal circumstances, whether that's the local citizen militia, the PDF, the IG on-world with the Sisters or even a local Arbites detachment. At the very least, I can see the Sisters looping some Frateris Militia guys into guarding the doors to the hospital in the event they feel it would be necessary, and this is, of course, assuming that no actual Battle Sisters are present to provide the service.

I don't see the Hospitallers generally traveling in sufficient numbers to provide the medical care that is their primary mission and also able to post several guards over a hospital facility. We already know that there's not a huge number of Sisters in the Imperium, I see that womanpower would be often in short supply, so either they do duty as doctor-guards or do it in shifts or whatever, or they loop in other people in the area to serve as guards. Being as they're nuns, I can see them being very good at guilting IG commanders into giving up a few troops to use as guards.

Support-staff Psiennes. And the numbers of Sisters Hospitalliers is an unknown affair, but I assume they are more than we suspect due to them being actually more well-known to the Imperial citizenry than the Battle-Sisters. Also setting up a hospital takes more than a single Sister Hospitallier.

When it comes to Ciaphas Cain I'm of the simple impression that he is smarking over sport-results Lynata, and that is a hell of a grudge, and I would know. I wouldn't even put it past him to deliberately lie about one and for once fooling Veil, due to the sport-result grudge.

The "support staff" of the Sisterhood is either Initiates or other members of the Ecclesiarchy, or members of the other groups I mentioned previously. They don't have "Chapter Serfs" or anything of the sort like the Astartes do.

And how do you explain the following many girls join the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas, yet their small number? It just doesn't add up, however, if you consider the support-material, then the number-crunch get a bit easier. Most entering the convents in my mind will never put on the powered armour as they are likely found wanting in some way without being condemned to the Sister Repentia.

Psienesis wrote:I'd imagine that the Sisters in a war-zone have the locals to depend on for defense of their hospital, under normal circumstances, whether that's the local citizen militia, the PDF, the IG on-world with the Sisters or even a local Arbites detachment. At the very least, I can see the Sisters looping some Frateris Militia guys into guarding the doors to the hospital in the event they feel it would be necessary, and this is, of course, assuming that no actual Battle Sisters are present to provide the service.

Duh, I completely forgot about local support. That makes a lot of sense. *nods*

Psienesis wrote:I don't see the Hospitallers generally traveling in sufficient numbers to provide the medical care that is their primary mission and also able to post several guards over a hospital facility.

That's the question. They do seem to be structured much like the Orders Militant in terms of deployment. See this Force Disposition Chart on the 13th Black Crusade - and note that the Orders of the Ermine Mantle and the Wounded Heart are Hospitallers. Naturally, the majority of them would be doctors and nurses, but I could see them including a few armed guards, perhaps even Battle Sisters who were once members of an Order Militant but have been transferred to the Hospitaller for this very purpose. Not many, of course, just about 4-5 for the entire convent. A token vigil, if you will. Or, well, the alternative, with the Orders Hospitaller stockpiling weapons and having the nursemaids pick them up when the situation requires. They are trained to use them, after all. If I remember correctly, one of the FFG books had a short story about one such occurrence, and though I criticize much of their version of the Sororitas for not being up to par to GW material, this is something I'd be willing to adopt.

Psienesis wrote:Being as they're nuns, I can see them being very good at guilting IG commanders into giving up a few troops to use as guards.

A good point.

Beaviz81 wrote:And how do you explain the following many girls join the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas, yet their small number?

I don't think it's that many who join them - granted, they have the entire Schola Progenium to tap for (wo)manpower, but they're still only recruiting the top performers. It's why even the Major Orders at times can go down to just a few hundred Sisters from their nominal size until the Schola has funneled enough novices to them to make up for the losses.

Of course, recruitment numbers depend on one's interpretation, so I suppose this is something where our individual visions of the Sisterhood might disagree.

I guess so, I'm sort of a realist, I want the numbers to make sense, as a continent-spanning convent populated with 300 SOB makes less than zero sense, also not every failed Space Marine ends up dead. They end up as the guys driving the Battle Barges, washing the Space Marines, making the meals, doing the logistics, must be like 200 guys doing some work for every Space Marine, and they also know some of the secrets of the Chapter. That being said, I think of the Sisters of Battle in that way as well. And with the massive support around them plus all that gets execute for not being pure of faith.

Of course, if you don't like it, then you are free to disagree.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess so, I'm sort of a realist, I want the numbers to make sense, as a continent-spanning convent populated with 300 SOB makes less than zero sense, also not every failed Space Marine ends up dead. They end up as the guys driving the Battle Barges, washing the Space Marines, making the meals, doing the logistics, must be like 200 guys doing some work for every Space Marine, and they also know some of the secrets of the Chapter. That being said, I think of the Sisters of Battle in that way as well.

To be fair it's this way with all the different forces in GW publications - no one cares to describe the support functions in any great detail because it's assumed we all want to hear about the grimdark endless war and the people fighting the bloody fight. Chapter serfs sweating as they load up ammo in a Rhino and drive it to the front? Nah, instead show us a marine crushing a skull with his left fist while simultaneously blasting down three enemies with the bolter in his right hand, that's cool! Unarmed Sisters lighting candles and saying prayers for the wounded? Bah! Give us armored Sisters instead, relentlessly advancing through a battle-scarred cityscape as they burn out heretics and traitors with flamethrowers and massed close-in bolter fire.

We're even given force lists on how marine chapters are organized, down to individual vehicle counts and fleet strength - and not a word on how many crewmen, serfs and servitors it takes to keep all that stuff running at peak efficiency. As some posters have pointed out in other threads a chapter could hardly field more than half it's listed strength if it was actually full marines driving all the vehicles and commanding all the ships.

You are spot on with my point Spetulhu.

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

Yes GW is generally very poor with numbers. They have tried to explain away the whole 1 million Astartes dilemma and have gotten quite adept at it, but it still doesn't make very much sense.

SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Given the way they are used, or at least should be used, a single Space Marine in the fluff is worth a dozen average guardsman.

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

No, there's 4 or 5 support personnel for every combat-ready soldier. Not 50. And this average, at least in the US military, is changing, moving more towards 3-4 support personnel for every combat arms soldier.

Of the Sisterhood, they don't execute one another for laxity of faith, except in the rarest of circumstances. It is rare in the utmost for a Sister to commit anything that would be considered a Heresy, and of those that do make such a transgression, that is what they have the Sisters Repentia for. She will find her absolution in death destroying the foes of the Emperor. The Sisterhood does not make use of anything approaching a Commissar.

Of the girls from the Schola who attempt to become Sisters, but fail to make the cut, they cycle them back into other roles or occupations within the Adeptus Terra or the Ecclesiarchy. There are, after all, plenty of jobs in the Administratum or the Ecclesiarchy that can be performed by women without those women needing to be Sisters of Battle. Some sects of the Imperial Cult even have all-female orders that are not the Sororitas, or mixed-gender priesthoods and such.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

Storks.

Occasionaly GW stores but now they have to mail order them or get them on ebay.

TermiesInARaider wrote:What's the selection/training process like?

Evening gown, talent and swimsuit.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Silicone.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

Sure.

Provided you're a 10' tall guy in solid gold armor.

Psienesis wrote:

And check the real-life soldiers as well, there there are 50 guys for every guy in the trench doing the boring work you don't wanna hear about.

No, there's 4 or 5 support personnel for every combat-ready soldier. Not 50. And this average, at least in the US military, is changing, moving more towards 3-4 support personnel for every combat arms soldier.

But that average is being moved by using so-called military contractors for support work. Instead of some Colonel having to report a soldier killed a corporate CEO or his aide sends a message about how contractor so-and-so has been killed in the line of duty.

The only way you get to 50 is if you also figure in the guys making all your arms and equipment.

Harriticus wrote:SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Ugh, no. I actually prefer their rarity the way it is presented in GW sources. It makes them seem elite, and it fits both to the exclusiveness of their Astartes-level equipment (10 million suits of power armor?!) as well as the overall theme of "trying to stem the tide". What I mean with this is that there aren't meant to be "enough Sisters", just like there aren't meant to be "enough Space Marines". Providing the Imperium with the resources it actually needs to do what it wants would end up sacrificing the grim hopelessness of the setting and have the Eternal War turn into a heroic conquest of the galaxy that might actually end some day. Sure, some people would like that, but I think the dystopian stalemate is a rather important part of 40k.

Plus, when the Ecclesiarchy has "enough Sisters", what would they need the Frateris Militia - the Ecclesiarchy's actual "line infantry" - for? The gaps left open by the small numbers of the Sisterhood serve a number of purposes in terms of the story.

As usual, it comes down to personal preferences. There are certainly a number of different interpretations that make the Sisters look like an army of millions, in licensed material too.

I didn't know the Ecclesiarchy had line-infantry. They have the Sisters of Battle. Not men under arms, sure many there are males, as only the protestant church lately has had many female priests. But then again I'm broad in my interpretation of an Adepta Sororita just as I'm with the Space Marines. The support-staff likely is members of the Ecclesiarchy, but that points boils it down to different wording.

Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:SoB's are in a worse mess though. Going by GW numbers I'd be surprised if there were 250,000. Really, a major Order Militant should be 1 million Battle Sisters and an undefined number of Lessers around 100,000. They'd still be grossly undermanned for their mission, but it'd be a start at least.

Ugh, no. I actually prefer their rarity the way it is presented in GW sources. It makes them seem elite, and it fits both to the exclusiveness of their Astartes-level equipment (10 million suits of power armor?!) as well as the overall theme of "trying to stem the tide". What I mean with this is that there aren't meant to be "enough Sisters", just like there aren't meant to be "enough Space Marines". Providing the Imperium with the resources it actually needs to do what it wants would end up sacrificing the grim hopelessness of the setting and have the Eternal War turn into a heroic conquest of the galaxy that might actually end some day. Sure, some people would like that, but I think the dystopian stalemate is a rather important part of 40k.

Plus, when the Ecclesiarchy has "enough Sisters", what would they need the Frateris Militia - the Ecclesiarchy's actual "line infantry" - for? The gaps left open by the small numbers of the Sisterhood serve a number of purposes in terms of the story.

As usual, it comes down to personal preferences. There are certainly a number of different interpretations that make the Sisters look like an army of millions, in licensed material too.

~10 Million Sororitas vs billions upon billions of Guardsmen still makes them extremely rare. Just not rarer then Space Marines, which makes no sense as it is as they're inferior to them.

Possibly, but support personnel, even in the days when they were active duty soldiers, were REMFs, and so the odds of them being KIA were remotely slim. As in, you are more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by enemy fire.

Support personnel are, by definition, in a support role elsewhere, performing a job that is, itself, not combat-related, whether that's being a doctor, a cook, a laundry & bath specialist or a bullet counter. Of course, actual military personnel do not get, and have not been, involved in the actual productions of arms and armor in a very, very long time (never in the history of the United States, this has always been private companies).

This does not include the use of "military contractors" who pull security detail, escort and bodyguard duties, and the like. These people are basically mercenaries, and all they are doing is combat-arms roles. So, yes, they are far more likely to find themselves in combat. This, however, is not the role of a "support personnel", and to include them in such a list is... deceptive, at best.

I actually agree with Harriticus. His assessment makes sense, but it all comes down to how we understand the number-cringe.

Plus Arbitrators and Inquisitors get power armour as well, so that renders your point sort of moot Lynata. I would go for their extreme faith before their equipment if I should go for the small numbers as everybody and their dog wears power armour.

Arbites might get power armor if they are fairly high-ranking, but the average Arbiter wears carapace.

The Frateris Militia is exactly that, a militia. It's hundreds to thousands or more of the faithful, from all walks of life, some being former Guardsmen, others being just Hiveworld sewage workers, to everything in between, that get "on fire" for the God-Emperor and decide to go persecute some Heretics over on that other planet over there.

Most of them don't even have guns or armor, but they can pick up a stick or a knife or a rock or a welding kit or a rock-drill or some other bit of tech that works as a weapon in a pinch and follow the Ecclesiarchy into a War of Faith.

What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

Because there's not much else to do in the Convent after prayers, classes, training, prayers, training, classes, preaching, incense burning, and polishing the power armor other than to do your hair. Peroxide is cheap and plentiful, and probably used in some other, mundane role, and so is not seen as the sin of vanity or luxury, and is thus the only thing the Sisters have on hand.

So they randomly white-washes their hair?

Can be, I like it better to turn white though.

Sorry, I didn't wanna sound harsh, but the reason sounded odd.

They obviously want to look like their patron saint, Madonna the Materialistic.

Edit: On the size issue, according to Imperial Guard Codex, 5th Edition there are only 10,000 Stormtroopers, excluding Kasrkin and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Where do the SoB get their troops from?

Storks.

Occasionaly GW stores but now they have to mail order them or get them on ebay.

TermiesInARaider wrote:What's the selection/training process like?

Evening gown, talent and swimsuit.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Is there any sort of augmentation, or are the SoB baseline humans?

Silicone.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Also, are they dateable?

Sure.

Provided you're a 10' tall guy in solid gold armor.

*bludgeons Kyoto Kid with his golden adamantium alloy power fist.* It's not made of gold, me dammit! Gold would be too soft!

Hello ladies, you looking good, you looking fine.

It ain't easy being a pimp...errrr...God Emperor...

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

They don't - some do others have varied hair colours - possible reasons:

Its actually natural to sone of the worlds that girels have been recruited from,
There may be a traditon to colour the hair in meomory of some estemed member of the Order

re other points:

Whilst the Church is not allowed troops - there are a few get arounds - the Sisterhood is one - there are also bodygaurds inlcuding the IIRC the Crusaders of Cardinals Crimson:

Crusader of Cardinals Crimson
An ancient and mysterious order of warriors dedicated to martial perfection and unflagging devotion to the Emperor. Bearing their signature arms – power weapons and storm shields, they make perfect bodyguards for the senior members of the Ecclesiarchy

These bodyguards could be reasonable sized units of varying quality.

I sort of assumed they might dye it white for their spiritual purity, or black as they are a penitent organization. Though I think they might have the haircolor turn white or black due to their extreme faith. Stranger things happens daily in the WH40k-universe, like SOB resurrecting and coming back to life as Living Saints.

Bodyguards ain't millions of soldiers. If they are then the Church is blatantly violating the Decree Passive with just a name-change instead of the SOB being the actual soldiers said in the fluff. Also when the Ecchlesiarchy leads men in combat it tends to be badly equipped rabble and zealots with only their bodyguards being a hardened core.

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

The Order of Our Martyred Lady has white hair as a symbol of mourning.

The other orders do not have any set hair color.

Beaviz81 wrote:I didn't know the Ecclesiarchy had line-infantry.

Sure. That's what the Frateris Militia effectively amounts to. They're supposed to disband them after a conflict, but in each and every War of Faith or Imperial Crusade or local conflict (especially in local conflicts, as the Confessors can raise a Frateris band much quicker than they would receive Sororitas backup - if it'd come at all), it's the Militia that makes up the vast majority of an Ecclesiarchal host. The Sisters of Battle are merely the vanguard, or spearhead if you will. The experienced and inspiring elite core around which the masses of the faithful form up.

Beaviz81 wrote:The support-staff likely is members of the Ecclesiarchy, but that points boils it down to different wording.

Actually, the Codices make it clear that the convents are Sororitas-only. Unless during rare and exceptional circumstances (such as hosting a VIP or protecting a bunch of refugees), there is literally no-one inside other than the Sisters. They do prize their isolation, as it is part of their way of life.

Harriticus wrote:Just not rarer then Space Marines, which makes no sense as it is as they're inferior to them.

Of course, this argument makes sense only if you are absolutely convinced that a soldier's skill is automatically, at all times, an indicator of how common he or she is.

This way of thinking ends in stuff like "The National Guard is more elite than the U.S. Army because it has fewer members!"

No, that's just not how I see it. In fact, the Battle Sisters' ability to come quite close to the Marines (enough so that they can beat them and have individual commanders call their Orders "equal") is the very reason for why there are so few of them. Space Marines are created artificially; "bred" by recruiting promising candidates and then enhancing them with all kinds of surgical procedures. It shouldn't surprise that there are very, very few "natural" humans who can face the sort of fights that Marines do day by day, even if you've got an entire galaxy to scour for recruits instead of just the one or two worlds assigned to most Chapters.

Plus, it's quite simply the way GW wrote it, and everything in its material - most clearly the Force Disposition Charts for famous battles like Armageddon 3 or the 13th Black Crusade - supports this. A sudden x10 or x100 increase in Sororitas numbers would quite simply make all of this information look conflicted and illogical, and would serve no other purpose than fulfilling this "they must be more than the Marines" opinion.

Funny sidenote: The Imperial Guard Storm Troopers have even fewer numbers than the Sisters of Battle. The entire regiment - and there is just a single one - contains 10.000 soldiers. True story. See the 2E Codex IG.

Beaviz81 wrote:Plus Arbitrators and Inquisitors get power armour as well, so that renders your point sort of moot Lynata.

Wat. I have never seen an Arbitrator with power armour, and Inquisitors are even way fewer than SoB.

Again, though, I'm pointing out that I am following the interpretation propagated by GW material on these subjects. I am well aware that there are some novels and RPGs around which contain contradictory information. In the end, we are all right and it comes down to personal preferences which version of Sisters we'd follow.

Mr Morden wrote:

Commissar41.0 wrote:What I want to know is why do all the sisters have white hair?

They don't - some do others have varied hair colours - possible reasons:
Its actually natural to sone of the worlds that girels have been recruited from,
There may be a traditon to colour the hair in meomory of some estemed member of the Order

It seems to be part of their uniform. If you compare the official pictures, every single Order is associated with one specific hair colour. The only deviations appear to be individual Canonesses who at times have streaks or fringes of hair in a secondary colour. A tiny hint of vanity, perhaps?

I'm also not sure they'd have to dye it regularly. It's 40k, they probably just give you an injection with some drug. Scientifically speaking, hair colour is determined by eumelanin and pheomelanin counts in the follicles. Change the rate at which they are produced and your hair will come out in a different colour.

Arbitrators are given carapace with the exception of a few of the more fortunate officers, according to FFG's materials.

I can agree to the few Sororitas-option, but that goes for faith (and that many fall short at the convents), not the equipment as it's too readily available to not be produced in the millions, which also is likely to be produced by the same women who sort of is rejected (not in the sense that they have utterly failed, as I think just a fraction of any of the millions of girls who take the Novice Advance end up as fully fledged Sororitas, and they are assigned other tasks instead around the Order they are attached to) as their Machine Spirits likely won't be too happy if someone not pure of heart is producing them.

Beaviz81 wrote:not the equipment as it's too readily available to not be produced in the millions

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject. Of course I'm somewhat biased in that I'm still going by the "blah blah rare blah artificers blah relics" talk GW has been spouting on power armour etc since 2E or so.

Most Sororitas power armor is not a centuries-old relic in the same way that Astartes power armor is, I'm not sure the Machine Spirit of their gear is quite so particular. I'm also not sure if the Machine Spirit knows it's going to be Sororitas power armor until the very end, when it gets all the fleur-de-lis bling, gold trim and corset bindings, which is probably done at the Convent rather than at the forge.

Psienesis wrote:Most Sororitas power armor is not a centuries-old relic in the same way that Astartes power armor is

Source?

Well Melissia, the power armour of Vail let her run around nicely in her powered suit despite being of Sororita-design. That Machine-Spirit should as far as I interpret things have gotten the powered fist to pulp her as she sure as hell ain't no Sororita, she just kicked the cam before it came to love-making with Cain.

The Machine Spirits of the powered armour of the SOB should be even more fanatical than the Space Marine's Machine Spirits. Only Grey Knights should be able to safely don those outside them. It's my interpretation, but it stands tall.

Psienesis wrote:Most Sororitas power armor is not a centuries-old relic in the same way that Astartes power armor is, I'm not sure the Machine Spirit of their gear is quite so particular. I'm also not sure if the Machine Spirit knows it's going to be Sororitas power armor until the very end, when it gets all the fleur-de-lis bling, gold trim and corset bindings, which is probably done at the Convent rather than at the forge.

Yeah, given the Sisters' attrition rate most of their gear would be fairly new, though I can certainly see them salvaging what they can (for the Sisters a matter of honour, for the Ecclesiarchy a matter of not having to order as much replacement parts). Still, I don't think the forward convents have the material and personnel required to do anything beyond basic maintenance and adding custom inscriptions, and why would the Ecclesiarchal Forges on Ophelia VII not add the decoration right where it's produced before shipping it off? Any unnecessary assembly by the recipient would only detract the Sisters from their primary tasks, and whilst the Imperium as a whole isn't big on efficiency, I do believe that no Sororitas armoury can compete with the forges of the Space Marine Chapters, in terms of personnel as well as capabilities.

Unfortunately, there's nothing in the studio material about them whatsoever, but in my "head-canon" (I've just learned this new word ) a convent probably has a Mistress of the Armoury and two or three helpers. Like a medieval forge in a castle, or rather a monastery. Few people know that nuns actually worked as blacksmiths back then.

With the machine spirit, are you referring to an AI? Because I don't think power armour has one. The Angel-pattern in particular is a very basic, "stripped down" version of the Space Marine suits, foregoing superior strength enhancemend and advanced life support systems (medical suite, EVA capability, waste recyclers, etc) in favour of combining just its armoured protection with a slimmer profile and a greatly reduced cost in resources.

Oh great point as always Lynata, even though it forges my own take, and expends upon fluff (which is a dangerous venture, which I'm not against, but it's dangerous because of how exclusive that armour is).

Forward convents are vastly different for the continent-spanning convents on Terra and Ophelia VII (which seen to be one big convent). And also that the nuns of course has smiths and armourers with great skill.

The Machine Spirit is a sore-point, the Sororita armour in my mind should be especially out for purity. Anything less, and malfunction.

What, exactly, a Machine-Spirit is is not exactly well-explained in the fluff, whether it's an actual, software-based AI, some mumbo-jumbo belief of the Mechanicus, or something somewhere in between. It is, based on the relatively few times its mentioned in fluff, often some variable of all of these things, sometimes capable of operating the entire machine by itself, other times being as dumb as a brick, and at yet other times preventing a given machine from operating at all (or at least at much reduced effectiveness) if handled by "unworthy" individuals. Or if pissed off.

How one goes about pissing off a non-sentient machine, I'm not really sure, but it's apparently possible.

That's easy, the machine for unknown reasons considers the wielder unworthy, and seriously Sororita-armour should be the worst of the lot because of the amount of faith (of course I'm assuming the SOB are almost supernatural due to their faith.)

Machine-Spirits malfunctions all the time, ehm it's pure and simple, so the semi-sentient machines must feel it somehow.

Ah, there it comes down to interpretation again. In my opinion, the whole so-called "machine spirit" stuff is 99% superstition that has its base in the actual pseudo-AI* that is included in some very rare and advanced hardware such as the Landraider - which does actually have computer made up of a human brain, if you look at the older cross-sections. Anywhere you do not have this device, the machine spirit is mumbo-jumbo that the AdMech propagates in its cause to religionize technology. No, your lasgun will not stop working just because you didn't say "amen" before pressing the "sacred ON rune". As every so often with 40k, GW just took contemporary habits (people yelling at their display when their OS crashed) and dialed them up to eleven.

*: I have no idea what to call it, actually - it's a natural human brain, yet attached to a computer. Maybe "HI", hybrid intelligence, would be a better term?

Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation. Did I say interpretation?

HI, is what you say to a friend not a semi-independent computer AI. At least as far as I interpret it. (I really must learn to mention interpretation)

Your lasgun, hahaha, unfortunately it's enough to think it will work, and you can shoot it. To be more serious (this is really hard), I kind of think that every weapon from the lowliest laspistol to the Babttlebarge is a sort of alive, they must be handled with care, of course I have chosen to interpret it in the most ludicrous way possible as if that happened IRL, then your car would suddenly jump off a brigde with you inside because you slammed the door too hard, or your stove would set you on fire for not using it often enough.

This is actually the hardest reply I have written as basically I so keeled over with laugh.

Beaviz81 wrote:Well Melissia, the power armour of Vail let her run around nicely in her powered suit despite being of Sororita-design. That Machine-Spirit should as far as I interpret things have gotten the powered fist to pulp her as she sure as hell ain't no Sororita, she just kicked the cam before it came to love-making with Cain.

I did not know that Amberleys power armour was of Adepta Sororitas make?

I had thought it was more likely that it was a Artificer suit (given its description and armament) made specially for her by one of her contacts in the Mechanicum, or she inherited and had it altered for her - apart from it being mentioned as being smaller than Astartes battle plate there is not much to say its Sororitas?

It's actually both Morden. It actually say that it is of Sororita-design. Then again I interpret the Machine Spirit in a way that should get me convicted to an asylum for the criminally insane.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's actually both Morden. It actually say that it is of Sororita-design. Then again I interpret the Machine Spirit in a way that should get me convicted to an asylum for the criminally insane.

Just looking through the book - it describes "intricate filigree, which in turn twisted around well-known scenes from the life of Him on Earth. ..." but does not actually say Sororitas make as I can't see it. Cain mentions that the Armourer (in his opinion) of the Reclaimers would have been very impressed with its workmanship which suggest artifcer make to me.

It was mentioned Sororita-design somewhere in one of the books. I can't for the love of God remember where, but sure as hell Cain thought it was that. I think that was in a later book, but then again I mention that my interpretation of the Machine Spirit is ludicrous.

Hmm ok - Can't see it but might have missed it - I would have thought Cain would have made some snide comments about its origins?

I'm almost certain I have read it, I just can't remember where, and if memory serves yep he did.

I have scoured over my books after the description, but success have eluded me.

Beaviz81 wrote:Well Melissia, the power armour of Vail let her run around nicely in her powered suit despite being of Sororita-design. That Machine-Spirit should as far as I interpret things have gotten the powered fist to pulp her as she sure as hell ain't no Sororita

And that matters?

She was an Inquisitor. If the machine spirit had an ego, that certainly would by itself have satisfied it. There's no indication that it was a Sororitas pattern power armor. More than likely it was simply a custom-built power armor, or if it was a standard pattern, an Ignatus pattern power armor (which is usually reserved for the Inquisition and its direct servants).

Indeed - Amberley has ALOT of custom made stuff - from powered armour to grav cars - she does quite like her toys...................

It depends on how moody you think the Machine Spirits are Melissia. My own interpretation about them borders on just for fun.

Yeah Amberley have quite lots of toys. But she is an Inquisitor so she will just say: "Nice toy, myses!"

Beaviz81 wrote:It depends on how moody you think the Machine Spirits are Melissia.

We're not talking abou the Alpha Computer here.

Even a flimsy lasgun has a Machine Spirit. That's well established even in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

It would all come down to how you see the Machine Spirit. If offended for me, the machine just stops and malfunctions for unknown reasons, but with hilarious results.

Beaviz81 wrote:Even a flimsy lasgun has a Machine Spirit. That's well established even in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

It would all come down to how you see the Machine Spirit. If offended for me, the machine just stops and malfunctions for unknown reasons, but with hilarious results.

LasGuns also get thrown around in the dirt and mud, and work perfectly fine. Obviously "machine-spirits" have differing levels of personality.

Of course, and as I wrote. Don't take my take unless you want a laugh.

Beaviz81 wrote:Even a flimsy lasgun has a Machine Spirit. That's well established even in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

In case you didn't notice, the Uplifting Primer is full of blatant lies.

Ultimately, I don't think the Sororitas power armor has quite the same "personality" as Astartes power armor simply because, in most cases, we're not given quite the detailed history of a suit of power armor worn by a given Battle-Sister in the same way we are for the Space Marines. While this may just be a matter of there being more SM fluff than there is SOB fluff... well, still doesn't change the fact that this situation isn't mentioned in what SOB fluff there is.

AlexHolker wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Even a flimsy lasgun has a Machine Spirit. That's well established even in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

In case you didn't notice, the Uplifting Primer is full of blatant lies.

Try reading my other comments as well.

Yeah Psienies that was my point. Just invert your, but it's down to interpretation.

TermiesInARaider wrote:I'd go to say that the only place this issue could really come into question is in the service of an Inquisitor. Otherwise, yeah, faith overrides all. But with the Inquisitor, you have a conundrum. Hold by your vow of chastity, or submit to the will of someone who, essentially, is the Imperium incarnate. Hence, why Caphias Cain has totally already gone there.

Going back a LONG way, I totally forgot Cain was a Commissar, not an Inquisitor. Derp.

Ehm Inquisitors know to thread with care around a Sororita, and rapists and scum would quickly get weeded out from the Inquisition as I have yet to hear about such storylines.

Plus it was actually discussed in the celibacy-thread. Though there it was a Priest.

Sisters of Battle, alongside Astartes, are one of the few groups who can kill an Inquisitor and get away with it (so long as they had good reason to do so), as they are THAT respected within the Imperium. Sisters in general (especially the non-militant ones, whom the population sees most often) are deeply respected and oftentimes loved by the population, and this also includes the authorities within the Imperium as well. Some more secular members of the Imperium are troubled by the Sisters, but people overestimate how many of those there are in the first place. An Inquisitor is more likely to be a fanatical puritan than a world-weary radical, for example, and the members of the Imperial Guard must at least show lip service to their faith in order to not be executed by the commissariat-- and the commissariat itself is almost as religious and fanatical as the Sisterhood.

Cain is the exception, not the rule. Ibram Gaunt, by contrast, was deeply religious and had a great deal of reverence and respect for the Sisters given what few times that they are mentioned in his lore. This is why guardsmen are inspired whenever they see Sisters fighting near them, for example-- they have a very similar effect to Space Marines in that regard.

Agreed - and Cain is careful about how he talks to others about the Sisterhood knowing how respected they are - its only really in his secret memoirs that he says how he really feels about them.

It is not their Faith that he has problems with - he is in his own way a believer - he expreses the view that the Emperor helps those who help themselves and on occassion even he quotes from the Precepts of Saint Emelia.

I'm on the verge of dismissing Cain's POV due to the fact he is smarking over old sport-results, which should have been an irrelevant point, hadn't I myself smarked so much about it myself. But yeah Cain was damn scared about the Sororitas.

As for Gaunt, well I haven't read their passages yet, and except the worrying fact that Milo is his illegitimate son and bedded a Saint who before had bedded Gaunt I guess I should be fine with it.

It should be noted that Cain has shown religious piety on occasion. Even to the Emperor in his Omnissiah format (despite the much more strident tone he has for the Mechanicus - ie: These technofetishists keep playing around with the Necrons and will get us all killed).

Of course Cain revers the Emperor in his own pragmatic way.

Melissia wrote:Cain is the exception, not the rule. Ibram Gaunt, by contrast, was deeply religious and had a great deal of reverence and respect for the Sisters given what few times that they are mentioned in his lore. This is why guardsmen are inspired whenever they see Sisters fighting near them, for example-- they have a very similar effect to Space Marines in that regard.

One need only read Ibram's 2nd Encounter with the host vessel of Saint Sabbat.

But then again, as a soldier, Sabbat is a Saint he can respect - She is (after all) a Joan of Arc expy.

Beaviz81 wrote:I'm on the verge of dismissing Cain's POV due to the fact he is smarking over old sport-results, which should have been an irrelevant point, hadn't I myself smarked so much about it myself.

Not to mention that such games do not happen in a Schola, anyways, if one were to go by studio material.

Lynata wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I'm on the verge of dismissing Cain's POV due to the fact he is smarking over old sport-results, which should have been an irrelevant point, hadn't I myself smarked so much about it myself.

Not to mention that such games do not happen in a Schola, anyways, if one were to go by studio material.

The military and sports will always go hand in hand as it builds attachments and cooperation. As for not happening? You are referring to the segregation of the students or?

Beaviz81 wrote:The military and sports will always go hand in hand as it builds attachments and cooperation. As for not happening? You are referring to the segregation of the students or?

Precisely - imho the Cain books pretty much disqualify themselves with some of their blatant contradiction of SoB fluff and it'd be better to regard them as a satire (which they were quite possibly meant to be).

It can be fun adopting the information from various licensed products into a personal summarization of fluff, but in the case of inconsistencies one is forced to choose what kind of sources to put your trust in: a random author's novel, or what the creators and managers of the setting have written? It's a choice all of us have to make for themselves, but I can't resist pointing out that some sources are "troublesome" when referenced in a debate like this. It's like trying to build a consensus out of two history books: one from the US and one from North Korea. They weren't meant to be compatible in all details and each book is its own independend interpretation ... just like BL novels (as stated by the people who write them).

Sports themselves ... no problem there! In my mind, the Scholae are probably run like a Nazi-German NaPolA.
http://brenda-ralph-lewis.suite101.com/training-the-hitler-youth-a196317

Well an official match in rugby that I have zero problem seeing, it would depend more on the individual's view of if male and female competed against each other in the same sport.

Beaviz81 wrote:Well an official match in rugby that I have zero problem seeing, it would depend more on the individual's view of if male and female competed against each other in the same sport.

*nods* Which just doesn't happen if you go by the Codices' exact choice of words.

Unless you count rugby matches as "religious ceremony", that is.

Heyh sport is religion for me, so I can see it happen.

"We will now go live in this religious ceremonial rugby -match between the cadets of the Arbitrators and the Sororitas..."

Hahaha.

Lynata wrote:*nods* Which just doesn't happen if you go by the Codices' exact choice of words.

Unless you count rugby matches as "religious ceremony", that is.

I'm going to point out the codices 'exact choice of words' itself is actually somewhat contradictory and suspect. After all, it does imply through poor choice of words that the Order Famulous also serve as mistresses to imperial nobles. (Which makes a sort of sense as they're Bene Gesserit expys)


I suspect, since Radical Inquisitors were able to set up a 'corrupt' schola that individual scholas may vary significantly at the sector level, just as the Ministorum does (which it not only says flat out in the 40k rulebook, but in most other books on the subject, before anyone starts beating their chest and screaming 'no, it's the same everywhere').

I don't think the fanatical members of the Famulous serves as mistresses to the Imperial nobles. They can however turn a blind eye to the debauchery that can happen at court, and more intelligent guys knows better than to bring in the pros when they are around.

As for the Schola that varies, also I'm on sliding scales on what passes for a religious ceremony.

BaronIveagh wrote:I'm going to point out the codices 'exact choice of words' itself is actually somewhat contradictory and suspect. After all, it does imply through poor choice of words that the Order Famulous also serve as mistresses to imperial nobles.

Where exactly?

In the 2E Codex it says they are "a network of chamberlains, advisers and diplomats, whose role is to ensure that the Imperium's noble families work towards the ultimate good of Manking, brokering trade agreements, alliances and marriages between families".
In fact, this one also clearly points out that "the Famulous maintain their own strict lifestyle and strive to control the excesses of those they are assigned to".

In the 3E Codex it says they "serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisors and chatelaines, running the noble families' affairs and directing their businesses" - a wording also mirrored in the White Dwarf Liber Sororitas.

On a glance, I cannot recall ever reading the term "mistresses" in a studio source, at least not in the context you were hinting at. Are you sure you didn't confuse it with its usage as a form of address or various titles ("Mistress of Novices", "Repentia Mistress", etc.) within the Sisterhood?

Lynata wrote:Where exactly?

I could have sworn I saw some of what Baron was talking about in an FFG book - and mentally chalked that one up to simply an oddity/variation of the Calixis Sector.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:I could have sworn I saw some of what Baron was talking about in an FFG book - and mentally chalked that one up to simply an oddity/variation of the Calixis Sector.

Oh. That would be possible, I guess - FFG's RPGs deviate from studio material on more than one occasion, especially when it comes to the Sororitas.

Although in the first Dark Heresy rulebook where they talk about the Calixis Sector's training facility for new Sisters, they do mention how the Famulous are trained to "resist the secular temptations that are a constant threat to them" and how they must be "disciplined and incorruptible as they are sent out to fend mostly for themselves, and are surrounded by the sometimes morally questionable nobles to whose house they are attached to". That said, this was written and published by Black Industries before the license was transferred to FFG. I'm unsure if the Famulous' role might have been retconned in newer material, most notably the Blood of Martyrs supplement, which also suddenly multiplied the number of Sisters present in the Sector by a factor of x10.

Blood of Martyrs says that the Famulous need a strong set of communication skills and a distinct ability to stay calm under pressure, and are intended to ensure that the noble families say as honest, genetically pure, and true to the Imperium as they possibly can.

In describing the effect this has on the worlds on which he Famulous are stationed, the book says:

"[On worlds] Where the Sisters Famulous have worked over the last several millennia, tithes have been maintained or increased, trade has improved, and in general the population has fared better than other worlds."

The Famulous are quite popular, and it is considered a mark of future prosperity for a noble house to be offered services of one of the sisters-- they are almost never refused, and if they are, it is always with politeness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: the Sanctum Dialogous in the Calixis sector is said to be guarded by a thousand Battle Sisters. Quite a hefty garrison on top of the planet's PDF and a squadron of naval vessels assigned specifically to protect the building and prevent anyone from landing near by.

The Imperium values the Orders Dialogous quite highly apparently.

Ah, make that a factor of x100, then.

But no mention of "mistresses" anywhere? Because I don't recall ever reading it in this context, too, in any book.

Only mistress as in overseer and boss, not as in lover. I guess the mistress-thingy is Americanized English. Though the AC/DC-song Mistress for Christmas disagrees with me.

Lynata wrote:Ah, make that a factor of x100, then.

But no mention of "mistresses" anywhere? Because I don't recall ever reading it in this context, too, in any book.

They use the term 'chatelaine'. In the context it implies the wife or mistress of the noble. It's in Codex:SoB and again in BoM. If they meant the head of the household staff, they needed a different word. Chamberlain would have been a better choice, as it lacks the subtle connotation of having , ahem, additional duties.

Again, as I've said in the past, it's GW's poor editing, not an FFG thing.

Chatelaine is the female equivalent to chatelain - which merely means castellan or "commander of the castle".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelaine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelain
see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chateau

additional sources:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ch%C3%A2telaine
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chatelaine
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chatelaine

In wider meaning, it can also stand for "wife of the lord of the castle" - but focusing on this terminology is akin to claiming that "Lady" always means that the bearer is married, or that "Mistress" always means that the bearer is someone's lover. Which really makes the Sisters of Battle sound like a whorehouse, considering the widespread use of these titles. And there's a big difference between "mistress of a castle" and "mistress of a noble" in terms of meaning, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistress

wikipedia wrote:In modern parlance the term "châtelaine" usually refers to the wife of the owner, or the female owner of a large house or similar establishment. It may also refer to a housekeeper, or the keychain worn by a housekeeper.

I think that the context - in particular the other names given to Sisters Famulous performing in this function - makes it clear which of these things applies.

I don't think it's poor editing but rather reader mis-interpretation, but there you go.

Lynata wrote:
I don't think it's poor editing but rather reader mis-interpretation, but there you go.

"...serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisers and chatelaines, running the noble families' affairs and directing their businesses..."

Websters (granted, from an older copy):
1 a : the wife or mistress of a castellan
b : the mistress of a household or of a large establishment
2: a clasp or hook for a watch, purse, or bunch of keys

As I said, their use of terminology was poor in this case, as it could go either way (as the examples, including the part about directing their businesses, were among the duties of the wife of a noble into the 18th century). And for the love of god I should hope we all knew what a Chateau was.

It would have been better to use chamberlain:
a: chief officer in the household of a king or nobleman
b : treasurer

But as late as 3rd they were still stealing the image of chevaleresses without any of historical context or basing it on the Rule those orders actually followed (most of which were much more grounded in common sense) and parts from Frank Herbert novels.

The Sisterhood is, as a rule, a chaste organization. They're not sleeping with the nobles.

"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

Psienesis wrote:The Sisterhood is, as a rule, a chaste organization. They're not sleeping with the nobles.

"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

No, but they are sleeping with the administratum functionaries.

Psienesis wrote:"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

That, in my opinion, is nonsense. The Sisters specifically stopped calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, remember?

BaronIveagh wrote:No, but they are sleeping with the administratum functionaries.

Given that the Codex specifically mentions the convents' extreme isolation from anyone not belonging to the Order, I'd doubt that.

Not to mention that sex = fun. And fun is anathema to the Sisters. Remember: "The purpose of life is to suffer."

AlexHolker wrote:

Psienesis wrote:"Cleave only unto the Emperor", as their saying goes, indicates this.

That, in my opinion, is nonsense. The Sisters specifically stopped calling themselves the Brides of the Emperor, remember?

I suppose that "cleaving unto" means like daughter to father, not lover to mate.

Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

Melissia wrote:Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas? Are there other sort of convents or nunneries for those that aren't Schola Progenium cadets? I only ask because the Enforcer omnibus made mention of conflict between a noble family and the ecclessiarchy on a particular world because a noble-born daughter had joined a convent. I wasn't sure whether they meant the Adepta Sororitas (as every other reference seemed to suggest) or another order of all-female nuns.

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent.

Which itself is something that is extremely unlikely to happen for extended periods of time.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent.

Which itself is something that is extremely unlikely to happen for extended periods of time.

Authority? I haven't seen anything suggest that it's extremely unlikely.

Melissia wrote:Lynata: He refers to Cain's Last Stand.

Ohhh, that again. Thanks for clarifying.

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

The situation depicted there is very much at odds with the studio material.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan."

This line from the Codex doesn't really fit well to what I understand is a rather jovial Veteran Superior who hangs around with "buddies" from other Imperial organizations, consumes alcohol and plays games of chance for fun. In fact, this is the exact opposite of what we are told about the Sisterhood being "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime" and whose members firmly believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer".

As for sports in the Schola, this was never put into question. What was regarded as questionable was that these sports as depicted in this individual outsourced novel contradict another aspect of studio material, where the Codex tells us that "each habitat maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies" - because "only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain". So forgive me if I do not place too much trust in this one author's personal interpretation of the Sororitas but will continue to stick to what the studio books tell me.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas?

This again depends on which source you're looking at. GW Codex firmly says yes, no exceptions, but FFG's RPG and various novels such as the one you named offer alternate origins. As Andy Hoare said, the various authors are not obliged to adhere to any particular consistent representation of the setting.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:The situation depicted there isn't impossible, given the sister was very isolated from the rest of her convent. As for Schola Progeniums having sports, again that's not beyond belief. Most sports tend to build teamwork and are perfect opportunities for picking out those with natural leadership skills.

The situation depicted there is very much at odds with the studio material.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan."

This line from the Codex doesn't really fit well to what I understand is a rather jovial Veteran Superior who hangs around with "buddies" from other Imperial organizations, consumes alcohol and plays games of chance for fun. In fact, this is the exact opposite of what we are told about the Sisterhood being "a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime" and whose members firmly believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer".

I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

As for sports in the Schola, this was never put into question. What was regarded as questionable was that these sports as depicted in this individual outsourced novel contradict another aspect of studio material, where the Codex tells us that "each habitat maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies" - because "only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain". So forgive me if I do not place too much trust in this one author's personal interpretation of the Sororitas but will continue to stick to what the studio books tell me.

Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Unrelated question, is the Schola Progenium the only method for a person to join the Adepta Sororitas?

This again depends on which source you're looking at. GW Codex firmly says yes, no exceptions, but FFG's RPG and various novels such as the one you named offer alternate origins. As Andy Hoare said, the various authors are not obliged to adhere to any particular consistent representation of the setting.

Thanks.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

Well, would you describe her behavior as "strict and puritan" as the Codex maintains is dogma for Schola teachers?

Also, what is the reason for her absence from a convent? And would prolonged leave not require to have an especially devout and strict Sister assume this position? Especially this position? And then it's a Veteran Superior, who has already proven herself to her Canoness?

Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up. At least if he actually intended to have his books be consistent with the studio vision. As mentioned before, this is not necessary, and if you like his idea of the Sisters more than what GW established, you are of course free to prefer it to the Codex material. I'm simply saying this is an "either or" situation, and these two sources cannot both be right.

By the way, I also find Cain as a character quite unlikely. Commissars are schola-bred as well, and do you honestly believe someone like him would have made it through those hard years of training to be sent to such a position? Especially considering that he could have at any time opted to simply become a clerk, away from all the dangerous fighting which I am led to believe he dislikes? After all, the vast majority of Schola pupils ends up as Administratum scribes, and only the best of the best, the most valorous, faithful and skilled, are allowed to join such elite Imperial Adepta like the Commissariat. In my opinion, the author of this book also had no clue the Schola trains civilians and made it appear as if Cain reluctantly became a Commissar because he had no other option.
Feel free to enlighten me, though, if this is one point where I am doing the author injustice!

Hazardous Harry wrote:Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Well, it specifically says "each habitat". The strict gender separation has a historical reason (to be found in the corruption and abuse during Vandire's reign) - so to have an individual Schola straying from such doctrine is a little like saying there might be elements of the Guard/Navy who simply do not care about the enforced division between their forces.

Cain is not that unlikely. I mean he was forced into a position, and he showed aptitude for war (plus I take it that he is overly critical of himself). I'm in fact more skeptical to Gaunt as Cain despite him labeling himself as a coward actually is a very good commissar. Gaunt on the other hand is an utter failure as a commissar, but a very good leader. Cain could avoid his risks as a commissar by mentioning the word execution to any general that wanted to send him into action.

Also I'm of the interpretation that the Scholas vary, which is shown as I'm happy to consider rugby, football, icehockey, boxing and such religious ceremonies.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I'm not saying it's common practice, but the thing here is that the Veteran Superior had been away from the convent for some time. I'm sure her compatriots still at the sisterhood would have been shocked at her behaviour (probably not to the extent of her picking up an Eviscerator, but enough to warrant plenty of fasting and other such penance). And again I haven't seen anything to suggest that having such sisters in these kinds of positions (teachers at Schola Progeniums) is very unlikely or even uncommon.

Well, would you describe her behavior as "strict and puritan" as the Codex maintains is dogma for Schola teachers?

Also, what is the reason for her absence from a convent? And would prolonged leave not require to have an especially devout and strict Sister assume this position? Especially this position? And then it's a Veteran Superior, who has already proven herself to her Canoness?

So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way, maybe giving this position away is a convenient method of weaning out some of the more unruly sisters (by the Sororitas standard), rather than a position of trust or honour. It's mentioned that she isn't exactly young anymore, perhaps there's a reason why she's never been given a loftier position.

Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up. At least if he actually intended to have his books be consistent with the studio vision. As mentioned before, this is not necessary, and if you like his idea of the Sisters more than what GW established, you are of course free to prefer it to the Codex material. I'm simply saying this is an "either or" situation, and these two sources cannot both be right.

I don't think it's either or. You'd be mistaken to assume that every individual is going to adhere to the ideal image of what a Battle Sister is meant to be. In an organisation with tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of individuals, there's every chance that a couple of them are going to be every bit as jaded as anyone else, getting into their current position through fluke alone and desperately trying to keep up the act.
I'm saying that the Sister Superior here is the exception to the rule, and even in an organisation as pious as the Adepta Sororitas there are going to be exceptions.

By the way, I also find Cain as a character quite unlikely. Commissars are schola-bred as well, and do you honestly believe someone like him would have made it through those hard years of training to be sent to such a position? Especially considering that he could have at any time opted to simply become a clerk, away from all the dangerous fighting which I am led to believe he dislikes? After all, the vast majority of Schola pupils ends up as Administratum scribes, and only the best of the best, the most valorous, faithful and skilled, are allowed to join such elite Imperial Adepta like the Commissariat. In my opinion, the author of this book also had no clue the Schola trains civilians and made it appear as if Cain reluctantly became a Commissar because he had no other option.
Feel free to enlighten me, though, if this is one point where I am doing the author injustice!

He had no other option that appealed to him. Being a scribe is hardly a life of carefree writing and mucking about (especially if you've read the Dark Heresy points on it). Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Good point, though as others have said it's likely each Schola is a little different with these kinds of things. I'd imagine they'd vary as widely as English Boarding Schools do.

Well, it specifically says "each habitat". The strict gender separation has a historical reason (to be found in the corruption and abuse during Vandire's reign) - so to have an individual Schola straying from such doctrine is a little like saying there might be elements of the Guard/Navy who simply do not care about the enforced division between their forces.

You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to. Now if the Schola's were training boys to join Convents you might be on something. And it's not like they've said the two genders are asking each other out for the Progenium Prom Night, it's competition between the two designed to increase the effectiveness of both.

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way, maybe giving this position away is a convenient method of weaning out some of the more unruly sisters (by the Sororitas standard), rather than a position of trust or honour. It's mentioned that she isn't exactly young anymore, perhaps there's a reason why she's never been given a loftier position.

I like that character just fine, but I don't think your logic stands up to scruitiny. If she really was being weaned out, she would not be put in charge of teaching a new generation of Sisters. That's a sure-fire way of making sure you get more Sisters like her.

And that stupid, Slaanesh-worshipping, "the purpose of life is to suffer" story can go die in a fire.

I might suggest that what's being argued here might reflect the difference between the ideal vs the reality on the ground in 40k.

After all, it's impossible to mathematically reconcile the number of sisters and their training system between the codex and anything else at this point.

@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

BaronIveagh wrote:@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

You mean from Daemonifuge? I mentally classify that comic in the same section as Ian Watson's old novels: it might be an interesting read for its own sake, but it's not 40k.

The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

I think the end of this sentence is missing - but I'm gonna jump for it anyways. The Sisters' regime is pretty extreme - they are raised for the utmost devotion to their dogma from birth and spend more than a decade in a fascist training camp where they have their childhood minds indoctrinated with propaganda, until they are shipped off to a religious convent where they are indoctrinated even more. They literally don't know anything else other than extremes. For them, the world is black and white, and people are either good or bad. It's why other Imperials are having such a hard time dealing with them and why they are as feared as they are adored.

To have this singular Sister in this singular book jump out of line, and not even be just a little more open-minded like Miriya in Swallow's novels but actually throw half their dogmas out of the window - and to have this "rebellious Sister" being in a position where she trains the next generation of Sororitas - no, this I can't accept. If you like it, fine, but for me it stands in stark contrast to everything I have read elsewhere. Even including other licensed material.

If we're going by studio fluff, a "Sister" like this would find herself arco-flagellaged or, at best, thrown into a Repentia squad. The character tarnishes everything the Orders stand for. She is "too normal", which isn't as much a flaw of the character - but a flaw of the author who created her. An author who, in my opinion, either lacks in background knowledge of the setting or whose interpretation of it deliberately deviates even stronger than the one of Goto does.

As for this supposed "exception from the rule" - aside from me questioning the necessity of any exceptions being this different, that still doesn't explain why she would be allowed to keep this post when such atypical behavior would normally be reported and acted upon with swift and brutal repression.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Flawed logic. Commissars don't get to pick the regiment they are attached to and are amongst the Imperium's most fanatical "troops" for a reason. This is about as logical as a tribal warrior applying for the Space Marines because a particular Chapter isn't very warlike and it'd be more cozy than his clan.

Hazardous Harry wrote:You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to.

I was referring to the military separation of the two organisations, meaning that the Navy isn't allowed to have its own armies or that the Guard isn't allowed to have its own starships.

And I still don't see rugby games as a "religious ceremony".

BaronIveagh wrote:After all, it's impossible to mathematically reconcile the number of sisters and their training system between the codex and anything else at this point.

I still don't see the problem with it, provided you don't allow outsourced products from random authors to override studio material. Feel free to present your mathematic formula, though.

AlexHolker wrote:The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering.

It's part of the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, and since the very first edition of Rogue Trader back in 1987, the Sisters have been presented in this way. Flagellantism is part of their style, for obvious reasons (real world historical connections and symbol of extreme fanatism). And as Confessor Ganinimus is quoted in various Codices: "Prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body".

Or: "In suffering, we are one with our God-Emperor."

This reasoning - with the Emperor's ascendance to the Golden Throne being played up as an obvious allusion to the crucified Jesus ("He died for your sins!!" etc.) - worked for various religious people in the middle ages, why shouldn't it work for the Sisters? Of course I imagine there are varying degrees as to which it would be implemented and practiced, and I doubt it would be regularly taken to such extremes as it happened with the historical movement (as this would ultimately end up distracting the Sisters from their greater tasks and stands in contrast to their firmly regulated lifestyle), yet the basic concept would surely be part of the Sisters' routine.

A few thoughts:

Cain is a skilled manipulator - he did not "ask" for his posting to an artillery regiment - I think he used the standard methods known to many officers throughout the centuries, he networked, used friends and family bribed etc those who could get him what he wanted.

Again there is a serious misinterpretation of the character at work - He is very good at his job - he gets results, helps forge excellent fighting formations - there is a reason he is a Hero of the Empire - he earned it. Unlike Flashman he is absolutely not a coward - even if he claims otherwise in his memoirs.

Whilst I understand (but don't agree with) the flack the books get for the arguably dubious portrayal of the one Sisters character - this ignores all the other completely accurate to cannon depictions of all the other Sisters in the books including their piousness, skills in battle and the respect that the rest of the Imperium feels for them.

Mr Morden wrote:Cain is a skilled manipulator - he did not "ask" for his posting to an artillery regiment - I think he used the standard methods known to many officers throughout the centuries, he networked, used friends and family bribed etc those who could get him what he wanted.

Networking, friends, and family - for a Schola orphan? Eh ...

I'm not sure this is how this kind of education works, not to mention that I doubt that a Schola would leave much time/room for this or allow any sort of communication to the outside that would be required for this networking. I mean, we are talking about a little child who is being indoctrinated daily for years on end, being told how glorious duty and sacrifice are, and how nothing can ever beat the Imperium. On top of this, the progena spend every free minute they have training for war or studying for the paths they are considered for. I simply find it difficult to accept that an innocent and malleable kid who I assume should be just as deluded as any victim of a Nazi school has the intelligence to realize the brutal truth (and without any information on what's going on beyond the Schola walls!), and the spirit and the will to attempt "beating the system" when he is surrounded by so much fanatism and propaganda.

Mr Morden wrote:Unlike Flashman he is absolutely not a coward - even if he claims otherwise in his memoirs.

I'll take your word on it - in this case I would have misjudged him. For I really do not see a place for cowards in the ranks of the Commissars. I still think he's too much of an "ordinary human" for this job, but not as terrible as I had initially thought.

What Cain used was blackmail. Someone he regularly played cards with owed him a great deal of money. So the Departemento-official assigned him to the Artillery-regiment. But I suspect you will react even harsher to this Lynata, I mean commissars are supposed to crack down at gambling, not be experts. Then again look at Gaunt, he met up drunk on duty once.

As for the fanaticism, everyone takes to it at different levels, the most fanatical of course gets to be priests and Sororitas, then Arbitrators and Commissars I suspect. Though skill will also play into things.

AlexHolker wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:@AlexHolker: How about the Screaming Cage, where Sisters join Slaanesh? The ones in Cain's Last Stand who are seized as puppets by a psyker are not the first in fiction to fall to the ruinous powers.

You mean from Daemonifuge? I mentally classify that comic in the same section as Ian Watson's old novels: it might be an interesting read for its own sake, but it's not 40k.

The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Which shows an ignorance of St Jeanne d'Arc, who, by her own admission, preferred her banner to her sword and convincing enemies to yield peacefully rather then make war upon them. Sadly, the woman they were supposedly modeled (and who's symbols they positively drip with) on would not only not have met their standards, but probably would be burned as a heretic. (Hmm...) While she believed that her actions were ordained by God, she was not a raging fanatic out to convert by the sword. (My own ancestor, Jean d'Orléans, who was over all commander of French forces at Orléans, felt that her strategies were too reckless [and her repeated wounding and general disregard for her own safety and that of her men suggests he was not too far off the mark], but came around to her point of view that bold and aggressive strategies could be effective after she proved her thinking sound by raising a siege that had stymied him for months).

Surprisingly, Mother Teresa would probably have cut it as a Hospitalar, other then for her tolerance of other faiths.


As far as Daemonifuge being canon or not, GW told FFG to go ahead and allowed them to make reference to it in Radical's Handbook. So, I'd say, unlike Watson's early works, it's still in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:I'm not sure this is how this kind of education works, not to mention that I doubt that a Schola would leave much time/room for this or allow any sort of communication to the outside that would be required for this networking. I mean, we are talking about a little child who is being indoctrinated daily for years on end, being told how glorious duty and sacrifice are, and how nothing can ever beat the Imperium. On top of this, the progena spend every free minute they have training for war or studying for the paths they are considered for. I simply find it difficult to accept that an innocent and malleable kid who I assume should be just as deluded as any victim of a Nazi school has the intelligence to realize the brutal truth (and without any information on what's going on beyond the Schola walls!), and the spirit and the will to attempt "beating the system" when he is surrounded by so much fanatism and propaganda.

The problem with that is, as the Nazis, and the United States before them, found out is that setting up a school to brainwash children does not work. Even if surrounded by armed guards and refusing their parents access to them (like the US did), it fails in short order the moment the doors open and they graduate. Further, the more restrictive the environment, the less able to deal with reality they are on graduating, usually self destructing in a spectacular fashion (and yes, even the ones that go right to the military or the church).

Lynata wrote:I'll take your word on it - in this case I would have misjudged him. For I really do not see a place for cowards in the ranks of the Commissars. I still think he's too much of an "ordinary human" for this job, but not as terrible as I had initially thought.

Ironically, you just about quoted another Commissar on meeting Cain in the most recent book, who's surprised that he's actually a human being rather than the myth they told them about in the schola. Cain narrates that if they had been cowards, as she suggests at one point, then they would not have three times as many ork kills as anyone else, they were just fighting smarter and using tactics rather then human wave assaults and head on charges, which were grinding her regiment to hamburger faster than the Imperium could recruit men (this should say something as this is going on ON that regiment's recruiting world). As Cain observes in another book, fanatical commissars tend to die heroically to enemy fire, even when the enemy is mysteriously far away...


Much the way this problem is occasionally dealt with in reality.

re the networking, friends and influence as children / young adults - the English private school system and its derivates have worked this way for a long time. I think some Schola would operate in exactly the same way?

Cain does not seek out danger but also does not run and hide - he has fought Chaos Space Marines in hand to hand combat as well as Daemons, Genestealers, Tryanids and Ork Warboses and won. Whilst he does not froth at the mouth as many contemporaries - he is an both an effective commissar in helping to produce an effective fighting force/s for the Imperium. Unusually his charges respect him - and in truth he is not unique - other BL Commissars have gone beyond the sterotype - not just Gaunt.

For all his vaunted cowardice he have on many occasions risked his life for others, and later rationalises it as without any alternative or protecting his rep etc. He enjoys the finer things in life and this gets him into bother - also whilst a consummate womaniser - his "conquests" as often prove to have their own agenda which is not always to his benefit.

Well they are said to be orphans, but then again Gaunt hardly qualifies as an orphan (he was raised by an aunt and the family-chef, plus his mother died in childbirth).

My personal take there Morden is that noble families could bribe or somehow get the kids into the local Schola, of course with orphaning-rituals and such as Schola Progeniums have classes in planetary ruling, but there are awfully little fluff about them and I tend to lean at this webpage http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/98sohn.pdf for my rationalizations about the Scholas, and it might not be kosher.

As for the rules, well at some places you get executed for smoking lho, so gambling might be a thing less heavily cracked down at for commissars like Cain and Gaunt.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:The reason I object to the piece from the 3rd edition rulebook being conflated with the beliefs of the Sisters of Battle is because it fetishises suffering. To be willing to suffer to protect humanity is admirable, to desire suffering for its own sake is disgusting and destructive. I want an army of Joan of Arcs, not Mother Teresas.

Which shows an ignorance of St Jeanne d'Arc, who, by her own admission, preferred her banner to her sword and convincing enemies to yield peacefully rather then make war upon them. Sadly, the woman they were supposedly modeled (and who's symbols they positively drip with) on would not only not have met their standards, but probably would be burned as a heretic. (Hmm...) While she believed that her actions were ordained by God, she was not a raging fanatic out to convert by the sword. (My own ancestor, Jean d'Orléans, who was over all commander of French forces at Orléans, felt that her strategies were too reckless [and her repeated wounding and general disregard for her own safety and that of her men suggests he was not too far off the mark], but came around to her point of view that bold and aggressive strategies could be effective after she proved her thinking sound by raising a siege that had stymied him for months).

I was not making the argument you seem to think I was. St Jeanne d'Arc was motivated by her religion to try to achieve great things - how she went about it is beside my point.

Surprisingly, Mother Teresa would probably have cut it as a Hospitalar, other then for her tolerance of other faiths.

Mother Teresa would probably be executed for wasting the lives of too many of the Emperor's soldiers.

Mother Theresa, the legend, is radically different from Mother Theresa, the reality, which you can find for yourself by reading her biography "Be My Light". To avoid getting into a religious debate, I'm going to leave it at that.

It's no question that no one alive today has what it takes to "make it" in any of the organizations in the Imperium of Man. Most of us wouldn't make it on an agri-world (farming is hard work, yo), most of us wouldn't make it in the Guard (even those of us who are or used to be soldiers), and absolutely none of us have what it takes to be Space Marines or Sisters of Battle. We do not live in a world where thoughts of progress are brutally repressed, where there is no "due process" of law, and the concept of having "rights" is a laughable fantasy. These are people who put up with, and even thrive in, situations that are well beyond anything we can conceive of, so it's not quite accurate to say "OMG! It can't work that way! No one would put up with that!".

Now, while I'm sure there have been/are Sisters who "stray from the path" and succumb to certain temptations, like, say, drinking, gambling, possibly even (somehow) a romantic liaison (sometimes I wonder if the Sisters even know how it works)... these transgressions aren't going to last long. Either the sinner in question gets overwhelmed with the "Imperial Guilt" and runs off to Confession (a specific job in the Ecclessiarchy) or is caught by another Sister or one of her Superiors. In either event, severe punishment is soon to follow, based on whatever Canoness is in charge there. Some are more creative than others, but none of them are exactly "lenient".

As far as long-term romantic flings? Well, I view the adage I quoted earlier, "Cleave only unto the Emperor" as both a ward against further Vandire-like shenanigans and a recognition of the past that anyone pretending to speak for the Emperor probably isn't. For those who flirt with the Sisters (fools they may be) I imagine they get the imperious glare and are asked "Are you the God-Emperor of Mankind?" when the inevitable answer of "no" comes, they get blown off with probably something like "Come back when you are".

Incidentally, the phrase "to cleave unto" or "to cleave to" is only sexual in its application. It's a Biblical reference to the ceremony of marriage, where the partners swear sexual fidelity to one another. I'm 100% certain this is where GW took the phrase and why they applied it to the Sisterhood. I don't think their religious influences for this faction are all that subtle or deep, GW isn't known for making the fans really search for the meaning to its various symbols and references.

"[...] Also, it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly humans at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand, and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?" [...]

Ironically, the Sisters of Battle are somewhat more tempered than the Clergy ranks. Whilst there are undoubtedly lingering issues of trust and occasional conflict (such as Canoness Dissentia's attack on the Angels Vermillion in the wake of the Argent Shroud's mandate of policing other Imperial forces), on a whole, both organizations also harbor a certain degree of respect for each other. From the same Codex as the above quote:

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."

Civil at best, sounds like they don't have much love for the emperors sons. Probably because the Astartes both loyal and traitor remember that the Emperor was powerfull psyker who hated orginised religion. Ironicly their alot like the Word Bearers in wanting to worship the Emperor are most likely seen as usefull idiots the High Lords of Terra.

Beaviz81 wrote:What Cain used was blackmail. Someone he regularly played cards with owed him a great deal of money.

See, I don't even think progena get to have money.

BaronIveagh wrote:The problem with that is, as the Nazis, and the United States before them, found out is that setting up a school to brainwash children does not work. Even if surrounded by armed guards and refusing their parents access to them (like the US did), it fails in short order the moment the doors open and they graduate.

That may be true if the "graduates" are thrown back into an ordinary society - which is not the case for Schola progena, especially not those who end up as novices in the Adepta Sororitas.

And it wasn't true for the Nazis either. The effects of indoctrination can be countered, but this necessitates exposure to an environment that serves to undermine whatever propaganda you've been fed. Needless to say, the existence of such environments needs to be tolerated by the state, which doesn't strike me as likely both for the Third Reich as well as the Imperium of Man.

Beaviz81 wrote:My personal take there Morden is that noble families could bribe or somehow get the kids into the local Schola, of course with orphaning-rituals and such as Schola Progeniums have classes in planetary ruling, but there are awfully little fluff about them and I tend to lean at this webpage http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/98sohn.pdf for my rationalizations about the Scholas, and it might not be kosher.

The Schola is not an "elite university" of the Imperium, it's a system of indoctrination camps where orphans are turned into what amounts to slaves for the state. Under Vandire's reign, this even took the form of supplying rich nobles with young sex slaves and whole armies of docile miners - a history which I believe to be the cause of the current Scholae' extreme caution in terms of purity requirements for both their progena as well as teachers.

Also, apart from any questionable possibility for bribery, I would be unsure as to why any noble would be interested to voluntarily give up their heirs to the Schola. Although Schola training is commonly seen as a honourable and admirable thing, the nobles of the Imperium are usually way more pragmatic and less susceptible to this propaganda, instead being focused largely on their own well-being. Surrendering their children to the Schola would mean cutting them off from the line of succession - and if a noble really wants to remove one of his kids from the family and exile him to the military, why not just make him an officer in the next best PDF regiment that is slated for recruitment by the Imperial Guard?

That said, if you prefer this interpretation, roll with it. As Gav Thorpe said, "none of these interpretations is wrong". All I'm doing here is pointing out it doesn't swing well with the studio books, much like those novels.

Psienesis wrote:Incidentally, the phrase "to cleave unto" or "to cleave to" is only sexual in its application. It's a Biblical reference to the ceremony of marriage, where the partners swear sexual fidelity to one another. I'm 100% certain this is where GW took the phrase and why they applied it to the Sisterhood. I don't think their religious influences for this faction are all that subtle or deep, GW isn't known for making the fans really search for the meaning to its various symbols and references.

On a sidenote, I do believe that the "cleave only unto the Emperor" saying is actually from a BI/FFG book, not from a GW one.

The "come back when you are" line made me grin, tho.

ZSO SAHALL wrote:Civil at best, sounds like they don't have much love for the emperors sons. Probably because the Astartes both loyal and traitor remember that the Emperor was powerfull psyker who hated orginised religion.

Yep - the "heretical" rejection of the faith unsurprisingly creates a lot of bad blood between these organisations. Aside from the Mechanicus, the Marines are the one and only people in the Imperium given carte blanche to get away with their "blasphemy", and even the AdMech does believe in the Emperor being a god - just in their own special way. And so the Adeptus Astartes stand apart from the Imperium they have vowed to protect, not just in hierarchy but also in spirit. A last symbolic remnant of the Imperium as envisioned by the Emperor HImself, one might say, yet over the millennia many Chapters have adopted some rather crude and abhorrent traditions on their own.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So you're saying every sister without exception, ever, is chaste and would never deviate from their Orders more mundane practices, even when they

I think the end of this sentence is missing - but I'm gonna jump for it anyways. The Sisters' regime is pretty extreme - they are raised for the utmost devotion to their dogma from birth and spend more than a decade in a fascist training camp where they have their childhood minds indoctrinated with propaganda, until they are shipped off to a religious convent where they are indoctrinated even more. They literally don't know anything else other than extremes. For them, the world is black and white, and people are either good or bad. It's why other Imperials are having such a hard time dealing with them and why they are as feared as they are adored.

To have this singular Sister in this singular book jump out of line, and not even be just a little more open-minded like Miriya in Swallow's novels but actually throw half their dogmas out of the window - and to have this "rebellious Sister" being in a position where she trains the next generation of Sororitas - no, this I can't accept. If you like it, fine, but for me it stands in stark contrast to everything I have read elsewhere. Even including other licensed material.

If we're going by studio fluff, a "Sister" like this would find herself arco-flagellaged or, at best, thrown into a Repentia squad. The character tarnishes everything the Orders stand for. She is "too normal", which isn't as much a flaw of the character - but a flaw of the author who created her. An author who, in my opinion, either lacks in background knowledge of the setting or whose interpretation of it deliberately deviates even stronger than the one of Goto does.

As for this supposed "exception from the rule" - aside from me questioning the necessity of any exceptions being this different, that still doesn't explain why she would be allowed to keep this post when such atypical behavior would normally be reported and acted upon with swift and brutal repression.

But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cains intention was to find a cushy job, and being a Commissar on some backwards posting with a (relatively) safe post in an artillery regiment is about as easy as it can get. It was never his intention to be caught up in a Tyranid invasion and propelled into legend.

Flawed logic. Commissars don't get to pick the regiment they are attached to and are amongst the Imperium's most fanatical "troops" for a reason. This is about as logical as a tribal warrior applying for the Space Marines because a particular Chapter isn't very warlike and it'd be more cozy than his clan.

Others have already answered this well enough. Basically, there are plenty of Commissars that don't actually see front line combat often, or even occasionally, even though they are expected to have no compuction to personally lead the most dangerous charges etc. Cain basically wanted to get the easiest posting he could, and for a Schola Progenium cadet few things are easier than a Commissar in an Artillery regiment.

Hazardous Harry wrote:You drawn a pretty arbitrary line there. There's nothing prohibiting affiliation between Guard and Navy personnel, or if there is it's never been seriously adhered to.

I was referring to the military separation of the two organisations, meaning that the Navy isn't allowed to have its own armies or that the Guard isn't allowed to have its own starships.

I know, and I was pointing out how you can't really compare the affiliation of the genders in a Schola Progenium to the mandate that disallows the Navy and Guard to have influence over the one or the other. After all, even though the Sisters tenents themselves disapprove of it, there is nothing in the Decree Passive that says Sisters can't affiliate with the Imperial Guard or Astartes.

And I still don't see rugby games as a "religious ceremony".

Ehhh...


If there's any deviation between different scholas (and there will be), this is probably the one most subject to change.

Lynata wrote:
And it wasn't true for the Nazis either. The effects of indoctrination can be countered, but this necessitates exposure to an environment that serves to undermine whatever propaganda you've been fed. Needless to say, the existence of such environments needs to be tolerated by the state, which doesn't strike me as likely both for the Third Reich as well as the Imperium of Man.

I think you're over inflating how successful the 3rd Reich was at it. By their own admission they achieved the desired result one time in five. Any of the students exposed to real world combat situations are going to start unraveling, because most of the schola grads believe what is in the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. If you've ever read that one (the Damocles Gulf edition in particular), their brainwashing will last up until first contact with the enemy. After all, orks in general are not physically weak, and Tau plasmaguns penetrate a flack jacket quite easily.

Your idea of what constitutes an environment that undermines propaganda is pretty narrow. Sisters, for example, are stationed away from Ophelia and Terra for long periods, sometimes permanently, in locations where oversight is not always possible. To the degree that entire orders have been lost to the last and no one knows what happened. And, I'll grant, the state does not tolerate invasions, but they also don't have much say in it. (In the case of the Imperium or Nazi Germany). The Order Dialogus for example, would nearly invariably have to deal with ideas and environments that undermine propaganda, by the nature of what they do. The Famulous have no oversight whatsoever, if fluff is to be believed.

And, frankly, is some of the characters in any IG novel can serve, the average Infantryman could, and probably do a better job of it. The level of incompetence in the Guard is truly staggering and it's a wonder the Imperium ever wins any wars at all.


And, let me throw a real monkey wrench in all of this now: As of the new WD SoB Codex - "During this time numerous other Orders Militant - the Orders Minoris - were founded across the Imperium with their own traditions, doctrines, livery, and titles."

So, this whole argument just went out the window, because as of this codex, many orders militant are not even FOUNDED on Ophelia or Terra, and are explicitly stated to have differing Rules than the Orders Majoris.

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Neither can Matt Ward, but it didn't prevent him from writing the new Codex. And since Ward seems to have slipped in some of what Mitchell has been writing... Hmm...

Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris, what Mitchell is writing could very well be the case, as it does not conflict with current codex canon.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Personally, I find it far more likely that this particular author, whose interpretation on the Sororitas is mirrored nowhere else in licensed literature and very much seems to contradict studio material, simply fethed up.

Ding ding ding, we haz a winnar!

Sandy Mitchell can't write Sisters to save his own ass.

Disagree - The Sisters in Duty Calls are straight out of the Codexes in every single way.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Cain basically wanted to get the easiest posting he could, and for a Schola Progenium cadet few things are easier than a Commissar in an Artillery regiment.

And based on everything he was told by the teachers, Cain knew this ... how?

Hazardous Harry wrote:I know, and I was pointing out how you can't really compare the affiliation of the genders in a Schola Progenium to the mandate that disallows the Navy and Guard to have influence over the one or the other.

Sure I can. Rules are rules, regardless of who sets them up.

From everything I've read in studio sources, I also do not think there is much difference in the various Scholas' teachings, much like it goes for the Sororitas Orders. What you are suggesting here is quite simply in contradiction to the Codex line that "the lifestyle of the teachers is strict and puritan", and nothing you could say will change this simple fact, so I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.

BaronIveagh wrote:I think you're over inflating how successful the 3rd Reich was at it. By their own admission they achieved the desired result one time in five.

With the Hitler Youth maybe, but not with Napola cadets - and the Napola are a perfect comparison for the Scholae. Note that any brainwashing about an enemy's supposed weakness which may get dissolved upon contact with the enemy is also something entirely different than the belief that humans are still inherently superior and that the Emperor is watching you. If it were different, the majority of the Imperial Guard would suddenly turn into unbelievers because the Emperor apparently does not protect, which is (and I hope you agree) obviously not the case - so indoctrination maintains its hold upon people.

BaronIveagh wrote:Your idea of what constitutes an environment that undermines propaganda is pretty narrow. Sisters, for example, are stationed away from Ophelia and Terra for long periods, sometimes permanently, in locations where oversight is not always possible.

They are always surrounded by other Sisters, which means constant oversight.

BaronIveagh wrote:And, let me throw a real monkey wrench in all of this now: As of the new WD SoB Codex - "During this time numerous other Orders Militant - the Orders Minoris - were founded across the Imperium with their own traditions, doctrines, livery, and titles."
So, this whole argument just went out the window, because as of this codex, many orders militant are not even FOUNDED on Ophelia or Terra, and are explicitly stated to have differing Rules than the Orders Majoris.

However, this bit of fluff was already around in 3E - and the WD Liber Sororitas where it appeared first also simultaneously makes it clear that although minor differences in rituals and colours exist between the Orders, they still follow the same rules due to tracing back their heritage to a singular origin and, because of this, are much more uniform than the Guard or the Marines. It is this trait that enables them to easily transfer from one Order to another, after all.

The 5E Codex you are referring to also mentions "fanatical devotion and unwavering purity", though, and that the Sisters divide their time solely between "battle, training and worship", so ... yeah, what will it be for you? Novel or Codex?

BaronIveagh wrote:Neither can Matt Ward, but it didn't prevent him from writing the new Codex. And since Ward seems to have slipped in some of what Mitchell has been writing... Hmm...
Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris, what Mitchell is writing could very well be the case, as it does not conflict with current codex canon.

You are mis-reading the text. Rules are not synonymous with traditions and livery. Just because one Order wears red robes instead of black ones and another holds morning mass in the garden of their abbey instead of the chapel does not mean they still do not follow the same rules as laid out in the Rule of Sororitas. This is also not something that Ward came up with, it's taken directly from the White Dwarf Liber Sororitas written by Andy Hoare and has been around since the Sisters' 3E Codex.

Lynata wrote:No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

This Schola does seem to be pretty small in terms of size. And Cain was the only outside person who clued on to what was going on.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

Of course it doesn't, because Sandy Mitchell isn't telling us about the larger picture, or the more typical inhabitants of the 40k universe. He's telling us about the exceptions, like a Commissar who wants nothing more than an easy life. If it had been claimed that Cain was pretty average for your Schola teacher, or that sisters away from the convent generally slept around then I would be in complete agreement with you. Usually I am, as you tend to know what you're talking about. But in this case I think your position that exceptions like this simply can't exist in the 40k universe is flawed.

And based on everything he was told by the teachers, Cain knew this ... how?

You don't have to be a genius to figure an Artillery regiment is going to be far behind enemy lines. And Cain is very adept at reading between the lines, he be able to get the gist of what is what even through the most dogmatic of teachings.

Sure I can. Rules are rules, regardless of who sets them up.

I guess you could, but it would be a pretty weak comparison. Mixing of different genders wasn't exactly a major cause of the Horus Heresy.

From everything I've read in studio sources, I also do not think there is much difference in the various Scholas' teachings, much like it goes for the Sororitas Orders. What you are suggesting here is quite simply in contradiction to the Codex line that "the lifestyle of the teachers is strict and puritan", and nothing you could say will change this simple fact, so I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.

I'd say there is a difference between contradicting something and pointing out an exception. But, as you've said, each to their own.

EDIT: Sorry, I don't mean to come across as trying to get the last word in here.

Lynata wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But you're assuming she behaved this way back at her convent, surrounded by her peers. If she had been acting in the same manner back at the convent she would definitely be reported and subsequently condemned and held to account. It's the same reason Cain goes out of his way to maintain the expected attitude of a Commissar, especially when his peers or superiors are around. Far away from the influence of her order, what is stopping her from acting a little more lax in this situation? Who, exactly, is going to report on her though? The novice sisters? The guy she's having the affair with? Cain?

No, I'm assuming nothing other than that the people at the Schola - harsh Drill-Abbots and fanatical Confessors - would act upon such things, just like it happens in every other school where teachers behave in opposition to the rules.

In this regard, this one author's novel(s) stands in stark opposition to just about anything bearing the 40k label, even including any and all licensed material. It suggests the existence of a sub-population of non-fanatical Sisters and Schola graduates where education and indoctrination have not taken hold and who behave utterly different than anything we hear about the members of these organisations. In fact, it puts the entire Schola Progenium into question, because apparently these institutions are now unable to reliably indoctrinate the Imperium's elite. I suppose the 41st millennium was simply too grimdark for Mr. Mitchell and he preferred a lighter version where humans are not as extreme as we are being told in other sources.

As I said, if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation ... that's your choice. But it doesn't fit into the larger vision.

As I keep saying - its one character in his books not his depction of the sisters that deivates from the norm - the sisters in Duty Calls are everything that one would expect - I have in the past quoted direct references that show this.

Fanatical, unwavering, devoted, skilled in combat etc etc

Elite insitutions that favour strict discipline and heavy indoctrination are not going to have a 100% success rate as you are dealing with human beings - look at history - look at fiction. Its also not clear at what age Cain entered the Schola - I can't see any reference to a maximum age in the codexes either. So its possible he had life experience before he entered - especially as it seems he grew up in the underhive where I suspect children are often grow up very quickly. The Schola produced an highly effective COmmissar, skilled in signle combat, a true servant of the Emperor who just happens to also see the virtues in preserving his charges and his own life - where did it fail? He may not forth at the mouth but is patently a beliver in the God Emperor. True - Sandy Mitchell chooses to have some elements of hope, humour, love and lust but then so do the posterchilds for the BL's Dan Abnet and Aaron Dembski Bowden - who I also enjoy.

I have read pretty most things published for 40K and own most of it and I really don't find it in conflict with the central tennents b ut each to their own I guess

Lynata wrote:Note that any brainwashing about an enemy's supposed weakness which may get dissolved upon contact with the enemy is also something entirely different than the belief that humans are still inherently superior and that the Emperor is watching you. If it were different, the majority of the Imperial Guard would suddenly turn into unbelievers because the Emperor apparently does not protect, which is (and I hope you agree) obviously not the case - so indoctrination maintains its hold upon people.

Sadly, this is more due to the fact that 40k characters do not behave like actual humans then anything else. It's also one of the reasons that the novels and codices differ, since the novels have to have characters who are relatable to real people.

Oh, BTW: while Napola cadets did have a higher success rate, the official numbers the Nazis had was still only 50% (which given how the Nazis occasionally shuffled paper, it was likely closer to 30% overall, a some Adolf Hitler schools had 0% of their students qualify at the end for further education, or roughly the same as hitlerjugen). Granted that's pretty high, but still no where near successful enough to make it worth while.

Lynata wrote:They are always surrounded by other Sisters, which means constant oversight.

Source please? I can point to three where it's not true.

Lynata wrote:The 5E Codex you are referring to also mentions "fanatical devotion and unwavering purity", though, and that the Sisters divide their time solely between "battle, training and worship", so ... yeah, what will it be for you? Novel or Codex?

No reason it can't be both. Again, as I said before, the Codex talks ideals. Ideally, yes. But, as we see in many books, the ideal and reality are two different things.

Lynata wrote:You are mis-reading the text. Rules are not synonymous with traditions and livery. Just because one Order wears red robes instead of black ones and another holds morning mass in the garden of their abbey instead of the chapel does not mean they still do not follow the same rules as laid out in the Rule of Sororitas.

You apparently do not understand what a Rule is in the context of a religious military organization. A 'Rule' is the traditions, oaths, doctrines, livery, and titles of an Order. (as well as how they take oaths, the seating arraignments at table and mass, and when to stand, when to bow and when to sit.)

So, when you see a big thing that says 'The Rule of the Sororitas' this is a listing of traditions and guidelines (most likely of the founding orders). A Rule is not absolute, either, with enforcement (and punishment for infringing) entirely up to the ranking person present. By tradition, a monastery or Commandery might waive or even ignore certain aspects of the Rule.

For example, the Rule of the Knights Templar called for a White cloak and for them to prohibit other knights and soldiers from wearing said in their presence. By tradition, this was ignored entirely in Southern Spain and North Africa, because many knightly orders there wore white in an attempt to reduce the desert's heat. It also prohibited them standing during prayer, as it was thought disrespectful to those who could not, for whatever reason, stand for the duration. This was commonly waived for practical purposes. Some Rules prohibited women, but individual Commanderies would allow them to take up arms as Knights anyway, particularly those with uncomfortable proximity to the enemy.

BaronIveagh wrote:Since Ward added the aspect that Orders Minoris no longer follow the same Rule as the Majoris

She wasn't a member of an order minoris.

Furthermore, you need to be more specific when you say "orders minoris", and your assertion of huge deviations has no basis in fact, only presumption on your part based off of, apparently, a peculiar need to have fantasies about sleeping with nuns as far as I can tell.

BaronIveagh wrote:No reason it can't be both.

Except when one contradicts the other.

And it does.

Which one do you choose? Choosing both is not an option. The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. It's like if you tried to base the view of chaos heretics off of the Sisters of Battle codex (which has them slaughtered easily by the millions). Or based your view on Orks off of Space Marine lore while ignoring the Ork codex. Or based your view of IG lore off of that stupid internet meme which has them be killed to a man whenever they try to do anything.

Or if you based Space Marine lore off of Soulstorm and the canon ending where they loss and took horrible casualties.

Some Rules prohibited women, but individual Commanderies would allow them to take up arms as Knights anyway, particularly those with uncomfortable proximity to the enemy.

I've heard a lot of Dan Brown-esque internet fluff about there being actual female Knights Templar, but I've never found any factual basis for it. Source, please?

Melissia wrote: The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. .

Except that is patently nonsense - The main character does not like them (although he grudgingly respects their abilities).

Lets look at actual text of the books - rather than what people have heard about them, do any of these extracts stray from the generally accepted view of the Sororitas?

.......but one local institution seemed to be taken into the Arbitrators trust. Down by the podium... was a small knot of figures in bright silver power armour....
'Battle Sisters', {Colonel} Krsteen said, her voice taking on a tinge of awe.

"Disturbing how?" the woman in the gaudy armour put in again, the unspoken 'get on with it' resonating around the room.... Canoness Eglantine. Keesh nodded, acknowledging her presence with a weariness that hinted heavily that they'd met before and seldom saw eye to eye, which I suppose was hardly surprising : The law dealt in hard truths, the Ecclesiarchy in matters of faith........
"Merely that a true servant of the Emperor should feel no disquiet, however dire the news, the woman said. 'He protects' She bowed her head, and the rest of her entourage did the same. Before they could turn the whole thing into a prayer meeting, Keesh got to the point, which was probably what Eglantine had intended all along.

Despites Cains tone - their effectiveness in combat is in no doubt:

At least the troublesome Sisters were easy enough to find. I just had to look for the densest concentration of tryanids on the plateau, and sure enough.....there they were, merrily slaughtering their way through a dense thicket of onrushing hormaguants, the bounding horrors scything claws making little impression on the women's gleaming power armour......An impressive number of chitinous corpses lay scattered about the place too. Gaunts by the score, which came as no surprise, but several of the karger warrior forms.....

.........our treads crushed tryanid corpses pretty much everywhere we turned and I found myself grudgingly impressed by the evident fighting prowess of the Battle Sisters......

not that they are overly impressed when he tells them to fall back to a more defensible position before they get cut off:

Thin lips compressed in disapproval. "We're servants of His Blessed Majesty" she snapped ' and not subject to the authority of your office. Go and shoot a few malingering Guardsmen like you're supposed to, and leave us to our holy task.'

describing the convent:

Other larger squares clearly had a more utilitarian purpose, Sisters in power armour drilling or practising combat techniques with a precision Sergeant Lermie (Regimental drill instructor) would have nodded grudging approval of.

'Commissar'. The woman returned the gesture curtly, her ash blonde fringe bobbing as she did so and I noticed that the fleur de lys tatoo on her right cheek was bisected by a thin line of white scar tissue. This as much as her manner, marked her out as a veteran warrior, and someone not to be trifled with.....

what had been an elegant formal garden, now crushed to mud beneath a heaving sea of chitin, mandible and doggedly resisting Sororitas, falling back slowly as that irresistible tidal wave of malign bio forms broke against the shore of bolter fire and expertly wielded sarissae.

In nomine Imperiator, Bonica yelled, brandishing her chainsword and leaping forward to meet the {genestealer} patriarch head-on. To my astonishment she sent it reeling back wounded.........

Melissia wrote:She wasn't a member of an order minoris.

Furthermore, you need to be more specific when you say "orders minoris", and your assertion of huge deviations has no basis in fact, only presumption on your part based off of, apparently, a peculiar need to have fantasies about sleeping with nuns as far as I can tell.

No, that's just nasty. My reason for championing this view is that it's more realistic and in line with the material that they were based off of. She was, however, the highest ranking Sororitas present, and therefor, if Sororitas follow the pattern of the real world monastic knightly orders they were based off of, the Rule would be up to her to interpret. (as it was with the Knights Templar permanently stationed overseas)

Melissia wrote:
Except when one contradicts the other.

And it does.

Which one do you choose? Choosing both is not an option. The Cain books are a horrible source for Sisters, as they're based off of the personal views and opinions of someone who dosen't like the Sisters. It's like if you tried to base the view of chaos heretics off of the Sisters of Battle codex (which has them slaughtered easily by the millions). Or based your view on Orks off of Space Marine lore while ignoring the Ork codex. Or based your view of IG lore off of that stupid internet meme which has them be killed to a man whenever they try to do anything.

Or if you based Space Marine lore off of Soulstorm and the canon ending where they loss and took horrible casualties.

Enough people seem to base Tau lore off the non-canon ending. That said, choosing both is very much an option, because of how a monastic order's Rule works. For some reason, people posting seem to think it an absolute, when in reality it's a set of guidelines. I'll use a real world comparison: the Templars were, ideally under their Rule, fanatical killing machines who would sooner slit their own throats than speak to a Muslim. The reality of it was they made treaties with them all the time and actually brokered some of the East - West trade arrangements of the period.

Psienesis wrote:I've heard a lot of Dan Brown-esque internet fluff about there being actual female Knights Templar, but I've never found any factual basis for it. Source, please?

I'm not sure if the Templars did, however I was thinking specifically of the Order of Saint John and The Order of Santiago. (Studia Monastica 1987 [vol. 29]). The Templar's did not, as far as I know, but their successor, the Teutonic Order, did, so German commandry's may have before the Templars in Germany took up the name of the Teutonic Order. I have heard that there were some before the Rule was imposed (the Order actually existing for a few years before the Rule was codified), but have not found a source for that rumor.

The Rule does make reference to a Scandal of some type in the East that the order was caught up in and makes mention of women, so it's possible that this is the root of the rumor, or, possibly, they had allowed it, causing a scandal and the knights in question to be disavowed.

BaronIveagh wrote:No, that's just nasty. My reason for championing this view is that it's more realistic

Feth realism, this is science fiction. Science fantasy even.

That said, choosing both is very much an option, because of how a monastic order's Rule work

According to the voices in our head, sure, but that's not the lore.

BaronIveagh wrote:Source please? I can point to three where it's not true.

I'm sure you can find even more sources that differ from this if you look outside studio material.

As Gav Thorpe said: "Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

I however have adopted a policy of relying on Games Workshop's own books, and they are pretty uniform in how an Order of the Adepta Sororitas is run, and they all have a convent shared by its members, with the Sisters Superiors in command of the squads. I do believe every single Codex mentions this, as does GW's own homepage.

Oh, and Schola Progenium education is conducted by Drill-Abbots, including that of potential Sororitas candidates - who do not get segregated into special classes. They become novices the moment they join an Order, and the only time a Sister Superior visits a Schola is for the evaluation of potential recruits forwarded by the Drill-Abbot. I suppose this is another aspect of the Sororitas that Sandy Mitchell quite simply did not bother researching, or did not care about.

BaronIveagh wrote:No reason it can't be both. Again, as I said before, the Codex talks ideals. Ideally, yes. But, as we see in many books, the ideal and reality are two different things.

Of course it can't be both, it's an either or matter. And again, these "many books" you are referring to are not the ones put out by Games Workshop. They are, in essence, licensed fan-fiction written by freelance authors who managed to have their story picked by the editors at BL.

BaronIveagh wrote:You apparently do not understand what a Rule is in the context of a religious military organization. A 'Rule' is the traditions, oaths, doctrines, livery, and titles of an Order. (as well as how they take oaths, the seating arraignments at table and mass, and when to stand, when to bow and when to sit.)

I think there's a flaw in your logic.

-> All rules are part of traditions.
-> Not all traditions are rules.

Conclusion: It is perfectly possible to have some traditions be different whereas all rules stay the same. As is the case with the various Sororitas Orders. As is written in the studio material.

I really do not understand why this has to be debated to such an extent, given that the conflict between these sources is so utterly and clearly visible.

But let's reiterate!

"They seek perfection of their martial skills in order to purify their minds and dedicate themselves utterly to the Emperor." [...] Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving; they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war."
- WD #211

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deviation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement."
- 2E Codex Imperialis

"To the Adepta Sororitas, penitence and self-mortification are a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful subjects."
- 3E Codex SoB

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."
- WD #292

"Their fanatical devotion and unwavering purity is a bulwark against corruption, heresy and alien attack. [...] The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess."
- WD # 380 / 5E Codex SoB

I put forward the notion that these facts - if one were to view the GW material as gospel as I do - stand in stark contrast to the interpretation propagated by the author Sandy Mitchell and it is impossible to reconcile both visions with one another.

And no, I will not accept any excuses about "exceptions". Since its infancy, this setting has been one of extremes, so perhaps any ideas about ordinary people in our contemporary modern world should be put to rest when considering the modus operandi of Imperial citizens.
If you go down the "exceptions" route, all you achieve is unlocking Pandora's Box of Silly Groxgak™ and opening the door for Ultramarines that surrender in battle, "misunderstood" Dark Eldar who fall in love with their human arch-enemy, and Demon Princes who are actually good guys. Maybe some of this has already happened in some other Black Library novel - I don't know, but I do know that a lot of other funny stuff happens there. Anyways, if this is the setting you prefer ... well, who am I to stop you. But it's quite simply not "my" 40k and not the one presented in any and all GW material. I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. As I said: If you like Mitchell's vision more, go with it.

[edit]

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:No, that's just nasty. My reason for championing this view is that it's more realistic

Feth realism, this is science fiction. Science fantasy even.

That said, choosing both is very much an option, because of how a monastic order's Rule work

According to the voices in our head, sure, but that's not the lore.

Well said.

The FFG material also supports Lynata's interpretation.

It's mostly just the Cain material that doesn't.

Melissia wrote:Feth realism, this is science fiction. Science fantasy even.

The problem is that first word in 'Science Fantasy'. Science Fantasy, people behave normally, you push a button, and it works in a way we know it does not. Fantasy people still behave normally, it's the world that works differently. Science fiction, people are the same (unless they're aliens robots, etc) and the world works on principals we know or think might work. This is none of the above.

Melissia wrote:According to the voices in our head, sure, but that's not the lore.

I might take the time to point out that your position is also that nothing is Lore except what agrees with your position, no matter the source. Games Workshop, final ruler on what is and is not 40k says you're wrong, and that it's all canon.

Lynata wrote:
I think there's a flaw in your logic.

-> All rules are part of traditions.
-> Not all traditions are rules.

Conclusion: It is perfectly possible to have some traditions be different whereas all rules stay the same. As is the case with the various Sororitas Orders. As is written in the studio material.

I really do not understand why this has to be debated to such an extent, given that the conflict between these sources is so utterly and clearly visible.

Let me take a moment again, to try and explain what I just said, because from your response, you did not understand what I was saying.

A Rule (notice the capital R) is a document, that lays out the traditions, oaths, doctrines, titles, and livery of a Order. Now, here's where things seem to be falling down. An Order's traditions are based on it's doctrines. Doctrine and Tradition shape it's precepts (the 'rules' you are referring to). In the case of a monastic Rule, what everyone here seems to be thinking of, a military doctrine, is a precept.

So, by saying that all those other things are different, the Precepts would have to be different as well, because they're shaped by the doctrines and traditions, which are stated to be different.

Lynata wrote:
"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."
- WD #292

I'll stop and respond to this one. That was why I was rebutting you using groups who are or were, in the real world, fanatical zealots. Ideally.

Lynata wrote:
I put forward the notion that these facts - if one were to view the GW material as gospel as I do - stand in stark contrast to the interpretation propagated by the author Sandy Mitchell and it is impossible to reconcile both visions with one another.

Except that, again, they also state in the Codex that not all the Orders follow the same doctrines. This would mean, in this context, that GW has, once again, said 'They generally do this. But it's not an absolute.'

Lynata wrote:
And no, I will not accept any "exceptions". Since its infancy, this setting has been one of poorly considered writing and contradicting fluff, so perhaps any ideas about human beings in any time or world should be put to rest when considering the modus operandi of Imperial citizens, who are not human beings, but robots that happen to suffer when the plot calls for it.

Fixed that for you.

Lynata wrote:
If you go down the "exceptions" route, all you achieve is unlocking Pandora's Box of Silly Groxgak™ and opening the door for Ultramarines that surrender in battle, "misunderstood" Dark Eldar who fall in love with their human arch-enemy, and Demon Princes who are actually good guys. Maybe some of this has already happened in some other Black Library novel - I don't know, but I do know that a lot of other funny stuff happens there.

Um, actually, all of it has happened in WD and/or Codices at one point or another, except the Dark Eldar thing, that was a regular Eldar and gave the Ultramarines a half Eldar Librarian Astropath at one point. (the daemon prince = good guy thing has happened both inside and outside 'official' material, by your definition, though pretty much always a Lord of Change, so Tzeench only knows if he was there at random or it was part of some plot that has not yet played out).

Melissia wrote:The FFG material also supports Lynata's interpretation.

It's mostly just the Cain material that doesn't.

Except that it mostly does - see previous posting............

BaronIveagh wrote:Science Fantasy, people behave normally, you push a button, and it works in a way we know it does not.

That's an arbitrary definition which has nothing to do with fantasy.

Melissia wrote:That's an arbitrary definition which has nothing to do with fantasy.

Actually that's the definition of it, at least, according to Orson Scott Card, who would be in a position to know, he's made more money at it than any of us.

Science Fiction: You push a button, use a computer, or throw a leaver and something happens in a way the world might work.
Science Fantasy: As above only the world works in a way that it is known not to work
Fantasy: You wave a wand, pray to a tree, read a scroll, or rub a toads belly, and something happens in a way that it is known not to work.

The constant is that people still behave like people. For any fiction to work, this is a constant. Doing otherwise breaks immersion as the reader wonders why on Earth (lol) they would do such a thing. This is why a BL novel differ from the badly written fluff in the codex. For example, there are authors who have written both the fluff in the codex and the fluff in the novel, and had to change things when they realized that the fluff in the codex would never happen in any world where human beings were involved. (Thorpe in particular, who's above quote was more about him dodging the question)

I might point out that the BL novels that try to stick closest to the codex fluff are also usually the ones no one buys because they're incredibly bad. The ones that have generally proven popular are, oddly, the ones that have ignored fluff to a degree (Thorpe, Mitchell, Abnett, and McNeill) without totally abandoning it (Goto).

Orson Scott Card, having written a series of novels where a five year old child is the smartest living being and wins intergalactic wars as well as Terran wars of dominion in his sleep and spare time may not be the best authority on what defines "how it works in the real world".

Psienesis wrote:Orson Scott Card, having written a series of novels where a five year old child is the smartest living being and wins intergalactic wars as well as Terran wars of dominion in his sleep and spare time may not be the best authority on what defines "how it works in the real world".

Never said 'how it works in the real world' I said 'how it might work based on what we know.' And I might point out that child prodigies are hardly an unknown phenomena. Mozart, Picasso, Gauss, von Nuemann, and Kripke all spring to mind, so it is something that exists 'in the real world'. Alexander the Great and Leonidas of Sparta were barely teenagers when they first took command. Joan of Arc had her greatest victory at the age of 17.

Ender was 11 at the end of the war. So, no, not that far out of true.

BaronIveagh wrote:Never said 'how it works in the real world' I said 'how it might work based on what we know.'

40k isn't even REMOTELY based on what we know.

Physics in 40k follows an entirely different set of rules.

Melissia wrote:40k isn't even REMOTELY based on what we know.

Physics in 40k follows an entirely different set of rules.

Psienesis was talking about Ender's Game, not 40k. And the fact that 40k is not Science Fiction I already said in an earlier post. Sadly, Rule of Cool wears thin when overused. If anyone has a doubt about this, watch some of Micheal Bay's 'Transformers' movies a few times in a row.

BaronIveagh wrote:Sadly, Rule of Cool wears thin when improperly used.

Fixed.

Everything in 40k follows it. Boltguns, lasguns, Orks, power armor, walkers, Orks, titans, plasma guns and meltaguns, Orks, power weapons, the aesthetics, Orks, and also Orks. If anything overdoes it, then 40k does. But 40k does it so well in many cases that we're very much willing to overlook it.

What I was mainly talking about was using a single author's definition of a setting, or a term, as the "gospel definition" of what that means. How things work in an OSC book has no meaning or bearing on how things work in 40k. They're based on entirely, and radically, different sciences and physics models... insofar as 40K has a physics model it's based on, which is questionable at best. While you can have super-intelligent children who lead armies via FTL communications and video game simulators in an OSC story, in 40K, a child that young would be coming from a much more primitive society in 40K... either one that worships technology such as that as a sign of the divine, or one that utterly lacks such technology completely. If the child could perform FTL communication? That makes him a psyker, and dooms him to the Black Ships.

As an aside, there's a world of difference between a 5 year old (Bean) and a 17 year old (Alexander the Great or Joan of Arc). Only in relatively recent years (20th century) have we considered someone a child at the age of 17. In times past, especially in most of the Ancient World, well into the 17th and 18th centuries, someone of that age would have been considered an adult, perfectly able to make their own decisions. There are some cultural variations and exceptions to this throughout history, of course, but, by and large, the age of majority being as late as it is is a relatively modern invention (and one also not reflected in 40K, where 16 seems to be the norm).

BaronIveagh wrote:I might take the time to point out that your position is also that nothing is Lore except what agrees with your position, no matter the source. Games Workshop, final ruler on what is and is not 40k says you're wrong, and that it's all canon.

I believe your understanding of how this franchise is handled is flawed, as mine once was. I'm pretty sure that you will be unable to provide any sort of proof for this "it's all canon" urban myth, whereas I can provide this:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe [src]

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare [src]

So we all have our own unique visions, depending entirely on a mixture of what 40k books we have read over the years and our personal preferences (which then may have influenced our choice in books - it's sort of a vicious cycle). My vision is an interpretation that focuses on the fluff put forth by Games Workshop above all else, and I dismiss anything that contradicts it. Your vision obviously attempts to reconcile the conflicting interpretation of Mr. Mitchell with all the other stuff. As Gav said, neither of us can be wrong. Me, I'm just pointing out that these books aren't really compatible - they're not meant to be.
I also find your line of reasoning especially puzzling since you are defending a source which goes against what GW themselves have said.

BaronIveagh wrote:Let me take a moment again, to try and explain what I just said, because from your response, you because from your response, you did not understand what I was saying.

Indeed I did misunderstand you - as you misunderstood me before. I have never actually talked about any "Rule with a capital R", I have been talking about rules, their set of laws. These are obviously part of a tradition (or their Rule), but they do not form its entirety.

And as we learn in WD# 293, there is indeed just a single set of books for all Adepta Sororitas. The Liber Sororitas article even contains example laws.

BaronIveagh wrote:Um, actually, all of it has happened in WD and/or Codices at one point or another, except the Dark Eldar thing, that was a regular Eldar and gave the Ultramarines a half Eldar Librarian Astropath at one point. (the daemon prince = good guy thing has happened both inside and outside 'official' material, by your definition, though pretty much always a Lord of Change, so Tzeench only knows if he was there at random or it was part of some plot that has not yet played out).

I'm aware that there were quite a number of weird and nonsensical things in GW books even after the great rewrite of 2E, but I'm fairly sure there wasn't anything as silly as this. Do you have a source?
And for the "good demon" thing, I was obviously referring to genuinely good-hearted demons, not ones simply claiming to be good.

BaronIveagh wrote:I might point out that the BL novels that try to stick closest to the codex fluff are also usually the ones no one buys because they're incredibly bad. The ones that have generally proven popular are, oddly, the ones that have ignored fluff to a degree (Thorpe, Mitchell, Abnett, and McNeill) without totally abandoning it (Goto).

We're just going to have to disagree about Mitchell being any different from Goto, and even Abnett has produced a number of strange ideas (mixing up Primarchs with Chapter-Masters or inventing the concept of a "Servitor-Navigator"). It's interesting that you are willing to admit that BL novels can indeed ignore studio fluff - for a moment it sounded as if you were certain this would not be possible. So, this obviously just leaves us with our individual interpretations of what constitutes an ignorance of fluff. I maintain the opinion that Mitchell's conflicting description of Schola life and organization does, whereas you maintain the opinion that all these things would simply be "exceptions".

Tl;dr - as I've been saying, it's all a matter of incompatible interpretations and opinions, and I do not believe we will ever find a consensus in this matter.