I have been hearing a lot of Matt Ward lately. And I was wondering who he exactly was, and why everyone hates him? Or dislikes him.

One of the codex writers. People hate him for two reasons; what he writes and because other do because of that.

This is always so much fun...

Search the forums and you shall find the answer.

Now can we get a lock on this before the Ward hate club sees it?

The four main reasons that get trotted about.

He wrote the Blood Angels codex. In particular, the Ghehenna Crusade where Blood Angels and Necrons formed an uneasy alliance against an incoming Tyranid fleet.

He wrote the Necron codex, in which he rewrote a lot of fluff that some people liked and some people didn't, and made new fluff that some people like and some people don't.

He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

He wrote codex Grey Knights.

-Loki- wrote:...... He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.......

BUT THIS ONE IS TRUE

j/k, dont kill me trolls!

I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Because, Space Wolves and Tyranids are subtle, story wise.

Matt Ward pretty much made Grey Knights ( especially Draigo ) Gary Stu.
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

There's no Phil Kelly hate club because he generally writes good books with good lists and good fluff, with only a few obviously over or underpowered units. There are people who don't like him, but I don't think there's enough to be considered a 'club'.

There very definitely is a Cruddace hate club - a portion of the IG playerbase, and the entirety of the Sisters of Battle and Tyranid playerbases, who he screwed over with sub par codices.

-Loki- wrote:The four main reasons that get trotted about.

He wrote the Blood Angels codex. In particular, the Ghehenna Crusade where Blood Angels and Necrons formed an uneasy alliance against an incoming Tyranid fleet.

It's not necessarily the stopping to fight the nids, it's the ridiculous reasoning he gave for the BA's not going after the Necrons. Not to mention ridiculous naming conventions go so far as to re-name otherwise textbook standard wargear just to include the word "blood" a few more times, and a ton of gimmicky rules.

He wrote the Necron codex, in which he rewrote a lot of fluff that some people liked and some people didn't, and made new fluff that some people like and some people don't.

Lets not forget a glut of gimmick abilities and silly special rules It's his own special hallmark in every book he puts out, which is a large reason why many dislike him.

He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

He wrote codex Grey Knights.

Which in and of itself is reason enough for many.


Oh, lets not forget all the stuff with the Ultramarines

LunaHound wrote:
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

This. He writes like an over-excited 12 year old slapping out a set out house rules and fan-fic after school, and that gets to people.

-Loki- wrote:He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

Wasn't really a joke. And what is written on page 8 pretty much toes that line due to improper pronoun usage. It does very much tone down any role of any other chapter.

LunaHound wrote:

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Because, Space Wolves and Tyranids are subtle, story wise.

Matt Ward pretty much made Grey Knights ( especially Draigo ) Gary Stu

Naw I'm not talking story wise.

Everytime I go against LF spam or Thunder cav... Damn you Phil Kelly!
Everytime my MCs die before they reach CC... Damn you Robin Cruddace!

Vaktathi wrote:

He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

You're right, but it was still an interview article where he simply expressed his opinion. Wether or not he wrote the codex means nothing. it's not actually official fluff. Which probably means someone stepped in and told him no when he wanted it in the book - regardless, it's not official fluff. So it's a moronic thing to get hung up over. People say stupid things, but as long as it's only printed as part of an interview and not as actual fluff, then it's meaningless when concerning fluff.

-Loki- wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

You're right, but it was still an interview article where he simply expressed his opinion. Wether or not he wrote the codex means nothing. it's not actually official fluff. Which probably means someone stepped in and told him no when he wanted it in the book - regardless, it's not official fluff. So it's a moronic thing to get hung up over. People say stupid things, but as long as it's only printed as part of an interview and not as actual fluff, then it's meaningless when concerning fluff.

It's the codex writer making a statement in an official GW publication, if it's not official fluff (to some, the writer saying that in an official publication makes it so), it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

There's no Phil Kelly hate club because he generally writes good books with good lists and good fluff, with only a few obviously over or underpowered units. There are people who don't like him, but I don't think there's enough to be considered a 'club'.

I'm in that club myself because of how long I was forced to endure Tri-Falcon skimmerspam in 4th edition. Not to mention his fluff on Vect was pretty much in the realm of "Mary Sue" but everyone has to focus on the overt to notice. As well his overpowered units are big enough that you never honestly see much within the space wolves codex. It's imbalanced so bad that there literally is nothing compared to the alternates, of course in dark eldar the obvious ones were noticeable, but the book as a whole stood around so that blaster spam was dominant, but still the other options were usable.

Vaktathi wrote:It's the codex writer making a statement in an official GW publication, if it's not official fluff (to some, the writer saying that in an official publication makes it so), it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

So now random comments in interviews in white dwarf are fluff?

feth, the 40k background forum is screwed.

Sorry, but no, it's just some comment he made in an interview. It wasn't even published in an actual story peice. It's just a writer being a writer and being enthusiastic about the product. But until that line is printed in a codex, it's not fluff. Sure, there's stuff in white dwarf that is considered fluff - they're actual short stories, like the short expansions on the Octarius war they did in the Tyranid issue. Note that that wasn't Cruddace in a Q&A session.

Sure, Wards comment is stupid, and it rightfully irks people, but it's not fluff, even in the absurdly loose way they do it in white dwarf.

-Loki- wrote:Sure, Wards comment is stupid, and it rightfully irks people, but it's not fluff, even in the absurdly loose way they do it in white dwarf.

If someone says stupid things, it makes them stupid for doing so. Then you wouldnt want someone that says stupid things to be in charge of anything do you?
like in charge of writing codice.

Responsibility is an essential element of integrity; it is the congruence of what you think, what you say, and what you do

-Loki- wrote:

So now random comments in interviews in white dwarf are fluff?

An interview statement from a codex writer in an official GW publication about a faction in said codex is...nothing? Methinks that's a wee bit realistic. If it were, nobody would care.

feth, the 40k background forum is screwed.

Many people think it has been of late

Sure, Wards comment is stupid, and it rightfully irks people, but it's not fluff, even in the absurdly loose way they do it in white dwarf.

Again, the codex writer making a statement about the fluff of a codex they wrote in an official GW publication has some weight in that department, hence why people are upset about it.

LunaHound wrote:

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Because, Space Wolves and Tyranids are subtle, story wise.

Matt Ward pretty much made Grey Knights ( especially Draigo ) Gary Stu.
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

I don't think you know what Mary Sue is.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Because, Space Wolves and Tyranids are subtle, story wise.

Matt Ward pretty much made Grey Knights ( especially Draigo ) Gary Stu.
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

I don't think you know what Mary Sue is.

Well to be fair Mary Sues are quite comlicated.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Because, Space Wolves and Tyranids are subtle, story wise.

Matt Ward pretty much made Grey Knights ( especially Draigo ) Gary Stu.
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

I don't think you know what Mary Sue is.

Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

Vaktathi wrote:There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

Jokingly or not, it's just his opinion and never once codified in the background.

Vaktathi wrote:it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

Except, you know, it's NOT reflected in the background. Which moves it firmly back into the 'moronic' camp.

Kaldor wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

Jokingly or not, it's just his opinion and never once codified in the background.

Vaktathi wrote:it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

Except, you know, it's NOT reflected in the background. Which moves it firmly back into the 'moronic' camp.

So if I make racist jokes about black people, thats alright as I proceed to be the president of black panthers?

How long before I get shot, and why?

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Implying wish-fulfillment is the ONLY trait, scroll down and read the rest.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

Jokingly or not, it's just his opinion and never once codified in the background.

Vaktathi wrote:it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

Except, you know, it's NOT reflected in the background. Which moves it firmly back into the 'moronic' camp.

So if I make racist jokes about black people, thats alright as I proceed to be the president of black panthers?

How long before I get shot, and why?

I know that was written in English, but it was still unintelligible. You're going to have to draw that connection between White Dwarf and the Black Panthers a bit more clearly for me.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:There's a lot of your own personal context there in that, it wasn't exactly an offhand comment, it's half a page of text, and there's nothing that indicated it was said jokingly.

Jokingly or not, it's just his opinion and never once codified in the background.

Vaktathi wrote:it's something the codex writer stated and something that influenced the way he wrote the book which very much reflected that point of view. It was a statement that many people take exception to and not something most want to be reflected in the SM fluff, hence why people don't like it, and it's not a moronic thing to get hung up over for that reason.

Except, you know, it's NOT reflected in the background. Which moves it firmly back into the 'moronic' camp.

So if I make racist jokes about black people, thats alright as I proceed to be the president of black panthers?

How long before I get shot, and why?

I know that was written in English, but it was still unintelligible. You're going to have to draw that connection between White Dwarf and the Black Panthers a bit more clearly for me.

No thanks.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Implying wish-fulfillment is the ONLY trait, scroll down and read the rest.

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Implying wish-fulfillment is the ONLY trait, scroll down and read the rest.

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Yes.....

LunaHound wrote:

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Th
Yes.....

There is no 'rest'.

You're operating under a false definition. It often happens when people try to use jargon they don't fully understand.

This might help.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Th
Yes.....

There is no 'rest'.

You're operating under a false definition. It often happens when people try to use jargon they don't fully understand.

This might help.

So you ignore the glossary and send me a dakka post instead. cool....

Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Ya Im pretty sure I know what it means. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
though I know you have the habit of " correcting" anyone that calls Draigo that....

Its ok though

If you think the Draigo character is any kind of wish-fulfillment Mary Sue, then you're way off base. Either you're reading the material wrong, or you're using the wrong definition.

Either way, you're wrong.

Implying wish-fulfillment is the ONLY trait, scroll down and read the rest.

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

BlaxicanX wrote:Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

Shame that'll probably be deleted.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Broadly, it is. Mary Sue refers to characters that are self-inserts of the author, wish fulfillment and perfect versions of themselves. The character is written as the author would wish themselves to be.

And... the rest?

Th
Yes.....

There is no 'rest'.

You're operating under a false definition. It often happens when people try to use jargon they don't fully understand.

This might help.

So you ignore the glossary and send me a dakka post instead. cool....

Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

BlaxicanX wrote:Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

^^; well.... that is actually really cleverly written. too bad it'll be deleted xD

n0t_u wrote:Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

No, that's just bad cliched writing. Mary Sue is a very specific term that refers only to characters that display strong elements of self-insertion and wish-fulfillment. 'Perfect' or over the top characters are just bad characters.

Vaktathi wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

This. He writes like an over-excited 12 year old slapping out a set out house rules and fan-fic after school, and that gets to people.

This is my only problem with it really.

Although, it is the 'larger than life' story, and it makes it seem like something almost comical by comparison, I think that is just the writing style he either enjoys or has been told to pursue by the sales department.

People forget that (and this was confirmed in a recent interview) that a lot of the times the codex writers have their hands tied and are pretty much directed to do something in a certain way by 'upstairs'. Are you telling me that Cruddace didn't know that the new Carnifex wasn't a major nerf compared to the previous edition? Or that Ward actively wanted the Storm Raven to be inserted in to literally every operation carried out by the Blood Angels in the history and background section?
By the same measure, if you wanted to make 'Draigo' into a concept that will become a 100% essential purchase for every 12 year-old reading the codex, what better way than having him bestriding the most inhospitable place in the galaxy (no, not going EVO without a space suit, but the warp) and carving his name onto the heart of one of the biggest bad-asses the game universe has created in the form of Mortarion? He-Man never even got close to that guy..

I would say with no uncertainty that Ward probably got an A* and a pat on the back for Draigo in terms of what he was told to accomplish with the character.

So, I think by making an 'anti-fan club' of a particular writer, you are really just shooting the messenger. I think in reality their hands are tied by HQ and the money people, who decide what kits have to sell, what ones people already have in their collection that are to be reduced in efficacy, and then the design elements come in from there.

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

I would put TV tropes, a site dedicated to defining things such as Mary Sue far above anything that you link to on dakkadakka. Quite simply, Drago is a character that has far too few failing to be realistic in any way and honestly, that makes him a very poorly designed character. The reason he remains a Mary sue character is that he performs feats that are bordering on the impossible and comes out the other end completely fine.

Once again, the like to Tv tropes

Scroll down a bit. We see examples of 'Mary Sue as Idealized Character' and 'Mary Sue as Infallible Character'

Pacific wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Its as if Matt Ward doesnt know how to be subtle ( Im sure he does, but is just following GW orders )
to make everything tailored towards something a 10 year old would enjoy.

This. He writes like an over-excited 12 year old slapping out a set out house rules and fan-fic after school, and that gets to people.

This is my only problem with it really.

Although, it is the 'larger than life' story, and it makes it seem like something almost comical by comparison, I think that is just the writing style he either enjoys or has been told to pursue by the sales department.

People forget that (and this was confirmed in a recent interview) that a lot of the times the codex writers have their hands tied and are pretty much directed to do something in a certain way by 'upstairs'. Are you telling me that Cruddace didn't know that the new Carnifex wasn't a major nerf compared to the previous edition? Or that Ward actively wanted the Storm Raven to be inserted in to literally every operation carried out by the Blood Angels in the history and background section?
By the same measure, if you wanted to make 'Draigo' into a concept that will become a 100% essential purchase for every 12 year-old reading the codex, what better way than having him bestriding the most inhospitable place in the galaxy (no, not going EVO without a space suit, but the warp) and carving his name onto the heart of one of the biggest bad-asses the game universe has created in the form of Mortarion? He-Man never even got close to that guy..

I would say with no uncertainty that Ward probably got an A* and a pat on the back for Draigo in terms of what he was told to accomplish with the character.

So, I think by making an 'anti-fan club' of a particular writer, you are really just shooting the messenger. I think in reality their hands are tied by HQ and the money people, who decide what kits have to sell, what ones people already have in their collection that are to be reduced in efficacy, and then the design elements come in from there.

I agree 100%. But when I want to contest an idea or concept, Its easier to do so against a symbol over a mass company.

Since we're linking TV tropes

Here's one I feel describes most of the hate for Ward's writing overall that jumped on the bandwagon.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb

Since all of them (Except for cruddance's, who has the worst of the balance in 40k) has pretty bad fluff.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

Is English your second language? Your syntax is terrible.

If you mean that Draigo is the most awesome OTT character Ward could imagine, that would not make him a Mary Sue. It would make him a flat, OTT character.

Ledabot wrote:I would put TV tropes, a site dedicated to defining things such as Mary Sue far above anything that you link to on dakkadakka. Quite simply, Drago is a character that has far too few failing to be realistic in any way and honestly, that makes him a very poorly designed character. The reason he remains a Mary sue character is that he performs feats that are bordering on the impossible and comes out the other end completely fine.

Once again, the like to Tv tropes

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Yeah, because the page you linked to is only partially correct. An actual discussion on the topic is more useful.

Kaldor, when you keep repeating self-fulfillment, do you know why it is that way?

Because the ideas are so farfetched and ridiculous that the best explanation is the author's self delusion.
His illusion of grandeur transcribed into such character.

It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

Is English your second language? Your syntax is terrible.

If you mean that Draigo is the most awesome OTT character Ward could imagine, that would not make him a Mary Sue. It would make him a flat, OTT character.

Aww I think you hurt my feelings.

Well yes infact english is my 2nd language, infact i speak lots of languages besides english
that and I dont really care about my grammar late at night :3
I do apologize as far as me feeling bad you have to read the bit of messy posts.
But Im not apologizing you nit picking about it, smells aaaa little desperate as im confident the mess I wrote
can convey what I want to say anyways!

Kaldor wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Though not in all cases of course. It can also relate to characters that the author favours over others; reflecting the author is merely the effect in its most basic form.

No, that's just bad cliched writing. Mary Sue is a very specific term that refers only to characters that display strong elements of self-insertion and wish-fulfillment. 'Perfect' or over the top characters are just bad characters.

So I take it you're an expert on this subject? Using OT as a source clearly shows as much.

If you must reiterate your findings from a brief Wikipedia search, at least do so in its entirety and refrain from reading only the opening sentence.

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labelled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.
While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues" if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this criticism is Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It is a kin to epic, troll, fail, etc. Its meaning varies greatly due to its over and somewhat improper use; morphing and corrupting it over time. An author character (Self insertion ie. what you're assuming and confusing Mary Sue with here) is another technique entirely which can actually work quite decently. It doesn't need to be some extremely powerful character. I bothered to link the Wikipedia article there merely to save time stating when it has worked as it has some notable examples in there for you to enjoy.

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!

He was a Daemon Prince, if he slayed him he'd just revive in the warp regardless. He carved the name there just so he'd remember.

And no, it wasn't his name, it was the FORMER SUPREME GRANDMASTERS NAME. Geronitan That Mortarion had killed before.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well Draigo did just carve his name on his heart instead of slaying him.

That arrogance is beyond the result of poorly designed character. It is deliberate,
because after all, its what 10 year olds finds... BAD ASS!!

He was a Daemon Prince, if he slayed him he'd just revive in the warp regardless. He carved the name there just so he'd remember.

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

I was under the impression ( possibly false ) that
a Mortarion would take even longer to recover if his physical body was obliterated (thoroughly) instead of some emo cuts on his heart xD

Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

He wrote War of the Ring before he wrote 7th edition Daemons (If I remember right), and honestly 7th edition fantasy was horrible before than regardless thanks to Gav thorpe's Dark Elves, and Vampire Counts, not to mention Skaven as well. If there's one thing that hurts is that he actually fixed up the magic phase so you couldn't overpower the enemy with 15-25+ magic dice per magic phase thrown at you. Is there a few OP spells in the lores in 8th? Yes, and they are annoying, but workable.

7th edition Daemons..Yeah, horrible, completely horrible, and by that I mean it was potentially the worst thing anyone has ever seen and I hope to god someone is smacked before this level of play is introduced back into fantasy ever again.

Not to mention 8th is doing quite well and balanced, though there are a few issues with a few 7th edition dex's, with the current codex's being done there hasn't been a truly OP 8th edition dex yet. Though I am sad to see all the unique items being toned down per book.

n0t_u wrote:[rimarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

It is not a catch-all phrase to be used for any cliched or flat character. It refers to a specific instance, a specific type of character, that Draigo clearly is not.

You didn't even read my post, did you? Just the parts you wanted to work for you. Merely skimming it at most.

For one I haven't even mentioned Draigo until this sentence mentioning that I hadn't.

Please don't waste my time. -.-

Edit: And this is why I don't like to argue much and mostly avoid it, can't help but make myself sort of look like an ass when I do.

n0t_u wrote:You didn't even read my post, did you? Just the parts you wanted to work for you. Merely skimming it at most.

For one I haven't even mentioned Draigo until this sentence mentioning that I hadn't.

Please don't waste my time. -.-

No, I read it. Not all of it was worth quoting though, and not all of it is correct. It states "primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader" and then goes on to claim some characters are criticised as being Mary Sue simply through hogging the spotlight or being too unrealistic in other ways.

Those criticisms are incorrect. A Mary Sue character is wish-fulfillment, not just any character someone doesn't like, not just any character that is unrealistic. And I mentioned Draigo, because the entire reason this was being debated was because of a reference to him being a mary sue.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

Yet you're missing the proverbial elephant in the room that Ward pissed all over the background further with this story by simply have Morty be on the offensive. It is well established Morty has NEVER left the plague planet in the EoT, preferring to remodel it to look like Barabus it is due to this sentimentality that gives Typhus his whole raison d'etre.

So, either Typhus has no reason to exist anymore or the GK's fought their way into the EoT and were on the plague planet. Which one was it Ward?

Grimtuff wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well the Daemon Prince should remember him either way.
Its not like they cant revive from an obliterated flesh, so yes its to do with mental insult.
But the arrogance Im talking about is, if the prince is destroyed, it'll take some time to recover...
Might buy some time and spare some lives if the return is "delayed".

At the time it said he escaped, and he literally carved Geronitan (Everyone seems to think Draigo carved his own name there, stop parroting this already) into the heart, with his own sword, I would think that would kill him regardless. Maybe he thought so to just to leave it with him into the warp since he was carving up the heart anyways, what does it take to kill a Daemon Primarch if carving that long name into their heart won't?

You are right, he carved his predecessor's name for revenge and humiliating Mortarion.
But the plot device is still the same, serving the same purpose.

Plot device? Though it did state he had to return to the warp to recover, so it did delay his return and spared lives as he was forced back to recover.

Yet you're missing the proverbial elephant in the room that Ward pissed all over the background further with this story by simply have Morty be on the offensive. It is well established Morty has NEVER left the plague planet in the EoT, preferring to remodel it to look like Barabus it is due to this sentimentality that gives Typhus his whole raison d'etre.

So, either Typhus has no reason to exist anymore or the GK's fought their way into the EoT and were on the plague planet. Which one was it Ward?

I'm sorry, but where are you getting this info? The plague planet is one of the closest planets to reality and is actually an excellent staging ground for attacks on reality, it was pretty much a focal point for where the plagued marines could come, join the deathguard, and than stage plague attacks everywhere else.

The reason Typhus left (3rd edition) was because at the time all Mortrarian wanted to do was shape the planet into an exact replica of barbarus, and Typhus was upset that he wasn't doing anything at the time besides shaping it up, with a few captains and those who were disgusted that Mort had a loyalty to his homeworld, rather than full devotion to Nurgle as they wanted. So they left.

There is nothing in the fluff stating that after he was done shaping up his planet to how he felt like it should be, that he would never leave it. The problem was Typhus and his crew hated that he had a devotion to it. The Death Guard there still travel out to infect other worlds with plague, so it's quite viable that he would travel with them at times.

LunaHound wrote:It-does-not mean Ward thinks he is Draigo

What if Draigo's original name was Matteo Wardus and GW told Ward to change it?

Kaldor wrote:

n0t_u wrote:[rimarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

It is not a catch-all phrase to be used for any cliched or flat character. It refers to a specific instance, a specific type of character, that Draigo clearly is not.

Note that while that specific kind of Mary Sueism doesn't apply to Draigo, others do. New powers never seen before, simply to underline how awesome he is (surviving in the warp without any form of shielding besides his own powers), check. Ridiculously skilled, even compared to other Grey Knights (beats down Mortarion single handedly), check. No obvious personality besides probably being annoyed at Mortarion for killing his mentor, check. Totally incorruptible, check.

Of course, Mary Sue or not, he remains a fairly bland character, since we know next to nothing about him besides the over the top description we got. Which is acually my only problem with Ward; he uses far too much hyperbole. Everyone doesn't have to be the absolute pinnacle of their field, especially when you're claiming that there's a being who is better at scheming than the god of scheming.

From what ive heard, he seems to be taking warp dust. and a lot of it.

Doesnt everyone want to be like Draigo? This guy just put pen to paper

Durza wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

n0t_u wrote:[rimarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader.

It is not a catch-all phrase to be used for any cliched or flat character. It refers to a specific instance, a specific type of character, that Draigo clearly is not.

Note that while that specific kind of Mary Sueism doesn't apply to Draigo, others do. New powers never seen before, simply to underline how awesome he is (surviving in the warp without any form of shielding besides his own powers), check. Ridiculously skilled, even compared to other Grey Knights (beats down Mortarion single handedly), check. No obvious personality besides probably being annoyed at Mortarion for killing his mentor, check. Totally incorruptible, check.

Of course, Mary Sue or not, he remains a fairly bland character, since we know next to nothing about him besides the over the top description we got. Which is acually my only problem with Ward; he uses far too much hyperbole. Everyone doesn't have to be the absolute pinnacle of their field, especially when you're claiming that there's a being who is better at scheming than the god of scheming.

On the note of little backstory for draigo, does anybody remember that old WD which had 4 short daemonhunter stories in the back? I like to think draigo was the kid cradling the shotgun in the middle of the blasted area, 'faith is my shield, the emperor is my sword' or whatever he was saying. I just change the name I am reading in the passage to 'draigo' (I think it is called 'finding brother somethingwhats' or something like that) and ta dah, a (really really cool) backstory

I believe the Story of Draigo is nothing more then that, a story. A propaganda piece to give hope to the Grey Knights who know they're fighting a hopeless battle against insurmountable odds. Explains everything, the blandness of Draigo, the over-the-top-ness of the story and every other annoying thing.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

He wrote War of the Ring before he wrote 7th edition Daemons (If I remember right), and honestly 7th edition fantasy was horrible before than regardless thanks to Gav thorpe's Dark Elves, and Vampire Counts, not to mention Skaven as well. If there's one thing that hurts is that he actually fixed up the magic phase so you couldn't overpower the enemy with 15-25+ magic dice per magic phase thrown at you. Is there a few OP spells in the lores in 8th? Yes, and they are annoying, but workable.

7th edition Daemons..Yeah, horrible, completely horrible, and by that I mean it was potentially the worst thing anyone has ever seen and I hope to god someone is smacked before this level of play is introduced back into fantasy ever again.

Not to mention 8th is doing quite well and balanced, though there are a few issues with a few 7th edition dex's, with the current codex's being done there hasn't been a truly OP 8th edition dex yet. Though I am sad to see all the unique items being toned down per book.

No, Kroothawk has it the right way 'round.

7th edition had (arguably) Dwarfs as the first book as it came out on the very tail end of 6th edition and was clearly a 'ment to be a new edition book.'

Orcs & Gobbos came next after 7th dropped and was also written by Ward.
The big complaints were that the book sucked hardcore and there was very little actual competitiveness built into it. Ward even stated in WD that he doesn't like the greenies and wasn't looking forward to writing the book when he was voluntold to do it! Now, one thing you NEVER do is publicly badmouth/trash your company's own product. He should have been fired for that one, and the final product really showed his lack of 'giva-a-damn-ability'.

High Elves were next and were seen as the begining of the 7th ed power creep as the entire army gained the ASF rule.

Vampire Counts came out the following March and the power creep was on! Gav butchered the VC material and made the new army into a power gamer's must-have due to how easily you could play a spamy points denial list backed-up by magic few could stop.

Then, Ward unleashed his Daemons of Chaos monstrosity and Fantasy 7th edition was dead. Within a few months, you either played Daemons, or you lost. Sure certain builds of HE's or VC's could stand a chance, but overall, there was no way to beat a super competitive Daemons list.
Seriously, when you could pull crap like 22+ power dice Tzeentch lists that also included 2 units of the insanely broken Flamers and led by a 2D6+2 attack 'Thirster, or else a Slaanesh 'terrorbomb' that could send even Ld10 armies packing on turn 1, you knew your book was the most broken pile of crap GW had ever published! (basically, it made 2nd edition Eldar Harlequins look semi-tame!!!)
And Ward's reasoning for this gigantic crap-shoot that rendered the entir egame un-playable? "Well, they're DAEMONS!!!1!11!!" was his answer to the question at various GW events...

Sure, Dark Elves, Lizardmen & Skaven also became OTT/border line broken, but they were still miles behind Daemons in 7th edition. Daemons were basically the "here's the best special rules in the game all mashed into 1 army which also have basic stats to equal everyone else's elite units!!!"



War of the Ring came out well after all of this, and was actually the brainchild for 8th edition.

Saying that, while Ward hit a homerun with the actual game rules for WotR, he completely fethed up on the army lists... So many broken combos even the most hardcore WAAC's power gamer doesn't know where to begin! (epic rampage is about the dumbest & most broken thing ever when you combo it with ringwraith magic for example, allowing your single company to mulch an entire formation of 9 companies!!!)
The only bright side to WotR is that every single army is broken, so if say an Elven player wants to be a complete tool and bring his jerky 'epic shoot of doom' army, he can be countered by a Mordor player bringing a huge Morannon Orc horde led by Gothmog and an allied Saruman.

Orcs & Gobbos came next after 7th dropped and was also written by Ward.
The big complaints were that the book sucked hardcore and there was very little actual competitiveness built into it. Ward even stated in WD that he doesn't like the greenies and wasn't looking forward to writing the book when he was voluntold to do it! Now, one thing you NEVER do is publicly badmouth/trash your company's own product. He should have been fired for that one, and the final product really showed his lack of 'giva-a-damn-ability'.

I never had the 7th edition O&G book, I built their army after 8th, before than I played Brettonia (Still do once in a while)

I honestly never knew this before, thanks! The rest was very informative too.

No, Kroothawk has it the right way 'round.

For 8th being an uncompetitive mess or what? I

-Loki- wrote:

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

There's no Phil Kelly hate club because he generally writes good books with good lists and good fluff, with only a few obviously over or underpowered units. There are people who don't like him, but I don't think there's enough to be considered a 'club'.

There very definitely is a Cruddace hate club - a portion of the IG playerbase, and the entirety of the Sisters of Battle and Tyranid playerbases, who he screwed over with sub par codices.

Not to mention, on the WHFB side, the Las Vegas casino buffet of crap that is the 8th ed Tomb Kings army book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tazay wrote:I have been hearing a lot of Matt Ward lately. And I was wondering who he exactly was, and why everyone hates him? Or dislikes him.

To get a grasp on Wardhate, here's a good place to start: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward

And while saying that the ultimate responsibility for the monstrosities produced by Ward lies with faceless GW suits who in all likelihood ordered him to produce them may be true, "just following orders" never absolves one when . . . . er, must . . . resist . . . urge to Godwin this thread . . .

Let me put it this way. When immature people with no concern for manners get mad about something they complain about it on the internet. Come on people, this isn't real you know, it's a game. And I'm pretty sure Mr. Ward could care less what the haters have to say when that fat pay check comes in the mail. And their is pretty much nothing you can do about it. No one is forcing anyone else to play this game you know.

Khorne's Herald wrote:Let me put it this way. When immature people with no concern for manners get mad about something they complain about it on the internet. Come on people, this isn't real you know, it's a game. And I'm pretty sure Mr. Ward could care less what the haters have to say when that fat pay check comes in the mail. And their is pretty much nothing you can do about it. No one is forcing anyone else to play this game you know.

Actually there is something you can do about it: stop buying product Ward generates.

I've no idea why people on the internet insist that everything should be aimed at them. What's wrong with aiming a codex at adolescent boys?

The OP bs of GK and BA in 5th was grating though. Like 'crons in 6th. Guess who wrote them?
It's fun to curse him mid-battle but honestly 90% of the people who rant about him don't actually have anything against him on a personal level

The reputation is that he writes OP codexes. GKs are probably seriously OP, and BA and Necrons slightly so, IMO. Marines are a really good codex, though, pretty well balanced. He also is said to write bad fluff, which is probably true, I'd say. All in all, he is a less-than-great codex-writer, I'd say, but doesn't deserve the bad reputation he has.

DOOMBREAD wrote:The reputation is that he writes OP codexes. GKs are probably seriously OP, and BA and Necrons slightly so, IMO. Marines are a really good codex, though, pretty well balanced. He also is said to write bad fluff, which is probably true, I'd say. All in all, he is a less-than-great codex-writer, I'd say, but doesn't deserve the bad reputation he has.

When people invest the amount of money that 40k requires, they generally aren't too forgiving about sub-par quality.

There are many haters. I personally ran up to him and hugged him in Bugman's Bar at my last tournament.

Khorne's Herald wrote:Let me put it this way. When immature people with no concern for manners get mad about something they complain about it on the internet. Come on people, this isn't real you know, it's a game. And I'm pretty sure Mr. Ward could care less what the haters have to say when that fat pay check comes in the mail. And their is pretty much nothing you can do about it. No one is forcing anyone else to play this game you know.

Oh hooray, another "it's all your fault and you can't do anything about it you bad little people!" post!


We can, we can not buy his books complain about them. Believe it or not, GW does get information from places like this, they just don't actively post (anymore at least, Gav Thorpe used to post and answer questions on Warseer up until a couple of years ago). One will notice that typically things that get whined about the most on web-forums is what GW ends up changing on the next go-around.

phantommaster wrote:There are many haters. I personally ran up to him and hugged him in Bugman's Bar at my last tournament.

I would hug him too.
Why does internet always assume disliking someone's work ( with valid reasons ) means disliking that person as a human being???

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

This, a million times this. It's not that armies he touches become monstrous, it's that it's hard for armies he touches to not be horrible to play against. Sure you can ruin grey knights, but it's hard without list tailoring (ever wonder why IG suddenly have a million plasma guns when they know your draigo wing is what they will be up against?). It's not even entirely the users fault, terminators as a troop choice is always going to be a pain in the ass.

Although, it should be mentioned that he did have a hand in warhammer 8th ed, which is pretty damned good.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

This, a million times this. It's not that armies he touches become monstrous, it's that it's hard for armies he touches to not be horrible to play against. Sure you can ruin grey knights, but it's hard without list tailoring (ever wonder why IG suddenly have a million plasma guns when they know your draigo wing is what they will be up against?). It's not even entirely the users fault, terminators as a troop choice is always going to be a pain in the ass.

Although, it should be mentioned that he did have a hand in warhammer 8th ed, which is pretty damned good.

There will ALWAYS! be imbalances and horrible match-ups in GW games as that's the nature of their beast. GW prides itself on allowing the player to fully explore and build any option they can come up with, based on the rich background of their game worlds. So every codex & army book is purposely designed to be as flexible and offer as many varried builds as we can come up with.
This isn't Warmahordes with it's rigidly structured characters that more or less define your army, this is instead a system designed to expand on our own imaginations & creativity. Hence why every section of the army list has nearly endless possible options and combinations.

It's impossible to balance that kind of a system, as you're always going to have those one or two 'best' combinations of options. GW doesn't care about Mr.Bigtime who looks at their game as being a hyper-competitive sport though, so if his nose is put out of joint by army book imbalances, well, we know where he can go!



That said, it's one thing to create some slight imbalances like those that exist in say the SW's codex where Grey Hunters are 'more pts efficient' than Blood Claws, or Longfangs with missile launchers are 'the best option'. Those lists aren't unbeatable, and they also aren't massive uphill battles for multiple armies to contend with!

However, it's completely another thing to create a set of rules that outright invalidates one more entire armies from even standing a snowball's chance in hell of putting up a fight! Look at what GK's can do to Daemons & Tyranids. It's completely wrong that those armies have almost no chance against a GK army.

Tyranids are in tough because they can't out-shoot the GK's, and their main strength of being an assault army is 100% countered by the likes of Purifyers, +2I halberds, deathcultist & crusader mobs, multiple sources of rad & psycho grenades and force weapons everywhere! Why play that game? Sure you can 'get lucky' and the GK player could roll like crap and/or the 'Nid player rolls like an epic champ, but that's not fun for either player to have the game decided in such a lop-sided way.

For Daemon players it's even worse! Not only sharing many of same weakness that hurt the bugs, but also getting the added slap in the face that a GK player can outright prevent a Daemon player from putting even a single model on the table! (30 warp quake capable models is all it takes to do so)


This is why Ward gets hated-on so much - his rules are not fun to play against because they are typically 'unbalanced' even by GW standards! Go ask any Fantasy player what 7th edition Daemons were like if you must.

Do I hate Ward himself? I've never met the guy so I don't know if he's a nice guy or what, so no, I don't "hate" him personally. I do however hate most of his army books/codicies though because outside of playing against vanilla marines, I almost never have any fun facing the other Ward books.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Actually Mat Ward got his bad reputation when he singlehandedly shot down competitive play in Warhammer Fantasy 7th edition by writing a super-imbalanced Daemons of Chaos armybook (there were threads desperately trying to make not-overpowered lists with that book). That was before he wrote any Codex. He then wrote the 8th edition Fantasy rules, making competitive play night impossible for ALL factions. And yes, his background texts look like he read too many He-Man comics.

Oh, and there ARE Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace hate clubs.

This, a million times this. It's not that armies he touches become monstrous, it's that it's hard for armies he touches to not be horrible to play against. Sure you can ruin grey knights, but it's hard without list tailoring (ever wonder why IG suddenly have a million plasma guns when they know your draigo wing is what they will be up against?). It's not even entirely the users fault, terminators as a troop choice is always going to be a pain in the ass.

Although, it should be mentioned that he did have a hand in warhammer 8th ed, which is pretty damned good.

There will ALWAYS! be imbalances and horrible match-ups in GW games as that's the nature of their beast. GW prides itself on allowing the player to fully explore and build any option they can come up with, based on the rich background of their game worlds. So every codex & army book is purposely designed to be as flexible and offer as many varried builds as we can come up with.
This isn't Warmahordes with it's rigidly structured characters that more or less define your army, this is instead a system designed to expand on our own imaginations & creativity. Hence why every section of the army list has nearly endless possible options and combinations.

It's impossible to balance that kind of a system, as you're always going to have those one or two 'best' combinations of options. GW doesn't care about Mr.Bigtime who looks at their game as being a hyper-competitive sport though, so if his nose is put out of joint by army book imbalances, well, we know where he can go!



That said, it's one thing to create some slight imbalances like those that exist in say the SW's codex where Grey Hunters are 'more pts efficient' than Blood Claws, or Longfangs with missile launchers are 'the best option'. Those lists aren't unbeatable, and they also aren't massive uphill battles for multiple armies to contend with!

However, it's completely another thing to create a set of rules that outright invalidates one more entire armies from even standing a snowball's chance in hell of putting up a fight! Look at what GK's can do to Daemons & Tyranids. It's completely wrong that those armies have almost no chance against a GK army.

Tyranids are in tough because they can't out-shoot the GK's, and their main strength of being an assault army is 100% countered by the likes of Purifyers, +2I halberds, deathcultist & crusader mobs, multiple sources of rad & psycho grenades and force weapons everywhere! Why play that game? Sure you can 'get lucky' and the GK player could roll like crap and/or the 'Nid player rolls like an epic champ, but that's not fun for either player to have the game decided in such a lop-sided way.

For Daemon players it's even worse! Not only sharing many of same weakness that hurt the bugs, but also getting the added slap in the face that a GK player can outright prevent a Daemon player from putting even a single model on the table! (30 warp quake capable models is all it takes to do so)


This is why Ward gets hated-on so much - his rules are not fun to play against because they are typically 'unbalanced' even by GW standards! Go ask any Fantasy player what 7th edition Daemons were like if you must.

Do I hate Ward himself? I've never met the guy so I don't know if he's a nice guy or what, so no, I don't "hate" him personally. I do however hate most of his army books/codicies though because outside of playing against vanilla marines, I almost never have any fun facing the other Ward books.

I almost completely agree with you.

I think that Grey Knights should crush Daemon armies, it's their purpose. I just don't like the way in which GKs do the crushing.

I have never met Matt Ward nor know someone who has. His picture is in the rulebook. A vest and pocketwatch? Seriously? Do they still do that in England? Where was his bowl hat and umbrella?

broodstar wrote:I'd like to know how come there isn't a Phil Kelly (Space Wolves) or Robin Cruddace (Tyranids) hate club.

Im in the Robin Cruddace hate club. Hes a total looser when it comes to writting anything. Never buy a book that goof had anything to do with.

DeffDred wrote:I have never met Matt Ward nor know someone who has. His picture is in the rulebook. A vest and pocketwatch? Seriously? Do they still do that in England? Where was his bowl hat and umbrella?

What is wrong with a vest and a pocketwatch? I use a vest and have a pocketwatch too (as my avatar may suggest ) and certainly am not english.

gaovinni wrote:

DeffDred wrote:I have never met Matt Ward nor know someone who has. His picture is in the rulebook. A vest and pocketwatch? Seriously? Do they still do that in England? Where was his bowl hat and umbrella?

What is wrong with a vest and a pocketwatch? I use a vest and have a pocketwatch too (as my avatar may suggest ) and certainly am not english.

With long hair like a college sophomore playing a game of toy soldiers when everyone else is in tees, it looks ridiculous. That's not to say a vest and a pocketwatch don't have a place, but was not appropriate to the context, making him look silly.

Vaktathi wrote:

gaovinni wrote:

DeffDred wrote:I have never met Matt Ward nor know someone who has. His picture is in the rulebook. A vest and pocketwatch? Seriously? Do they still do that in England? Where was his bowl hat and umbrella?

What is wrong with a vest and a pocketwatch? I use a vest and have a pocketwatch too (as my avatar may suggest ) and certainly am not english.

With long hair like a college sophomore playing a game of toy soldiers when everyone else is in tees, it looks ridiculous. That's not to say a vest and a pocketwatch don't have a place, but was not appropriate to the context, making him look silly.

That might be a valid reason.

-Loki- wrote:
There's no Phil Kelly hate club because he generally writes good books with good lists and good fluff, with only a few obviously over or underpowered units. There are people who don't like him, but I don't think there's enough to be considered a 'club'.

I find this some what odd because kelly codexes are generally really boring rules wise. With orks you have the greentide or bw spam and dark eldar are just ravager spam. With ward codexes I usually see loads of variety in lists.

Surtur wrote:

-Loki- wrote:He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

Wasn't really a joke. And what is written on page 8 pretty much toes that line due to improper pronoun usage. It does very much tone down any role of any other chapter.

The spiritual liege comment only refers to Ultramarines successors. For the Second Founding chapters, their original Marines were Ultramarines, so it's obvious why they'd consider Guilliman their primarch and spiritual liege. For those derived from Ultramarines gene stock, the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman.

The line makes sense. It's the people who distort the line to pretend it refers to all Space Marines that has given it the notoriety.

illuknisaa wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
There's no Phil Kelly hate club because he generally writes good books with good lists and good fluff, with only a few obviously over or underpowered units. There are people who don't like him, but I don't think there's enough to be considered a 'club'.

I find this some what odd because kelly codexes are generally really boring rules wise. With orks you have the greentide or bw spam and dark eldar are just ravager spam. With ward codexes I usually see loads of variety in lists.

And I find the opposite is true... Personal experience is a terrible way to generalise because it's only like you know, your opinion!

Yes, venomspam is popular DE power build. Sure, greentide or battlewagon spam are solid Orkie lists. Point is, when you're looking for full-on competitive lists, there's always just one or three or so set builds, because you're almost always spaming the 'best' points-for-profit unit/s!!!
Doesn't matter who wrote the codex in question. At the top levels of competitive play, most lists tend to look the same. Not to mention that as a codex ages, it's options typically become more and more limited as it can't keep up with the newer books.

Now in my personal experience, when I'm not playing in a tournament, I see a helluva lot more variation in Dark Eldar armies than I do in GK or BA armies. I've played again wracks in raiders, WWP wyches, warrior/trueborn in raiders, hellions & reavers...
Mostly though when I play against GK's, it's either Purifyers or Henchmen spam or termies/pallies with maybe some Strike Squads or Interceptors on the side.

Does this mean I think that Mr.Ward's codicies are boring rules wise? No, I think it means he's created a book/s that have units which are head and shoulders above other units and thus those book/s attract the type of players that want to win without putting in the effort to fully learn how to make their army work for them!
Orks for example are alot harder to win with because they're an older book with fewer tricks and they don't have ready access to 'easy button' unit/s that can counter most any target. GK's on the other hand have a unit that crushes hordes AND meq's AND multi-wound nasties. It's far, far easier to make that book work well.

Because it seems like most players nowadays look for a 'competitive edge' and enjoy tournament play, they'll gravitate towards the 'easy button' over the 'need to think with it button' army.

Three pages in, how has this thread not been killed by MOD-fire? Do it Alphy!! Kill it!! Kill it hard!!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Surtur wrote:

-Loki- wrote:He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

Wasn't really a joke. And what is written on page 8 pretty much toes that line due to improper pronoun usage. It does very much tone down any role of any other chapter.

The spiritual liege comment only refers to Ultramarines successors. For the Second Founding chapters, their original Marines were Ultramarines, so it's obvious why they'd consider Guilliman their primarch and spiritual liege. For those derived from Ultramarines gene stock, the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman.

The line makes sense. It's the people who distort the line to pretend it refers to all Space Marines that has given it the notoriety.

Actually, I believe he said ALL space marine chapters except for DA, BA, and SW.



Anyway, my issues with him are as follows.
1) He really needs to learn better naming conventions. The BA codex has too much stuff with blood in front of it.
2) The whole Blood Angels Necron alliance thing is very strange on the Blood Angel's part. Necron wise, it was strange until the new Necron codex came out.
3) Necrons are now pokemon masters. Kind of strange. I like the rest of the fluff though.
4) He really likes to kill the Sisters of Battle, especially in the Grey Knight codex. There really was no reason why the Grey Knights would slaughter the Sisters and wear their blood, even if it somehow magically protected them from demons. It just isn't a thought process that anyone would really have upon seeing the last holdout against the invasion.
5) Ultramarines continuing to be the shining posterboys of the Imperium with no flaws. I REALLY hope that the Ultramarines-Tau rumor eventually becomes true because then the Ultramarines will be torn between the orders of the Emperor, and the Lords of Terra, and would actually have a flaw. Throw in the fact that the Lords of Terra and the Ultramarines have always been buddy buddy, and it gets even more complicated. Right now though, there is nothing interesting about them. I miss the Crimson Fists being the posterboys.
6) The whole deepstriking land raider thing was poorly executed. I personally think it is cool as hell in how it happens in the fluff, but the way it is written it doesn't make it obvious enough that it is being dropped from a Thunderhawk. (It mainly focuses on the fact that it doesn't have the suped up engine.)


Really though, he doesn't bother me too too much, with the exception of the Ultramarines thing. Someone really needs to do something with them to make them actually interesting. Right now they suffer too much from telling, rather than showing, as evidenced by Matt Ward's writing in the Codex Space Marines codex. If they are supposed to be as Ward says they are, then there should be evidence of it.

BlaxicanX wrote:Kaldor is the hero Ward deserves, but not the one he needs right now. And so we we will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not Ward's hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Ward's White Knight.

Exalted for an /epic/ win right here.

As to Ward hate I don't really hate him, or Cruddance for that matter. I do take issue with their grevious offenses against my poor Sisters of Battle fluff and rules wise, especially the now Khornate Corrupted Grey Knights. (It's canon darn it XD)

jadebullet wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Surtur wrote:

-Loki- wrote:He made an offhand comment in an interview article in White Dwarf jokingly saying all Space Marines consider Roboute Guilliman to be their spiritual leige, and the usual internet hate train ran with it and tell everyone he actually wrote it in the Space Marine codex.

Wasn't really a joke. And what is written on page 8 pretty much toes that line due to improper pronoun usage. It does very much tone down any role of any other chapter.

The spiritual liege comment only refers to Ultramarines successors. For the Second Founding chapters, their original Marines were Ultramarines, so it's obvious why they'd consider Guilliman their primarch and spiritual liege. For those derived from Ultramarines gene stock, the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman.

The line makes sense. It's the people who distort the line to pretend it refers to all Space Marines that has given it the notoriety.

Actually, I believe he said ALL space marine chapters except for DA, BA, and SW..

The guy I was quoting was referring only to the line from C:SM on page 8.

The Codex: Space Marines just refers to the successors.

It's not Mat Ward I have a problem with, it's the people involved with the reading and signing off on what he does that angers me. Alot of his stuff starts off good, but than becomes flawed.

The whole "spirtual liege" thing pretty much states that founding chapters, who have a known primarch, prefer the teaching of the Codex Astartes over the teachings of their respected primarch (pg 24 C:SM in the Codex Chapters section) considering the Raven Guard like to go ninja/predator on enemies, Salamanders are "burn the enemy/ protect the civillian". Black Templars (yes, not a founding chapter) are a run at the enemy and cut them up with swords type of army and are larger than the prescribed 1000 head count. All this could've been avoided with mentioning that founding chapters w/ primarch consider the codex "My primarch didn't write it, so we'll read it and proceed accordingly if we can learn from it, but don't hold your breath because you'll pass out from lack of oxygen and bonk your head on the coffee table"

The whole Draigo thing- I'm pretty sure some daemon shouted out across the warp " You know that's just going to pop back up again in a bit, don't know why you're smashing it. We had this discussion yesterday and look what it got you. Your destructive tendencies are a sign of mental issues and you should consult with a doctor or psychiatrist. sigh Dumbass." and the chance of Draigo being a great tragic hero fighting against impossible odds gets buried under "Draigo smash!!!!!"

Necrons- If they can sign off on "Tomb Kings in Space", those ass-hats can bring me a "Skaven in Space" too.

So in closing- I don't hate Ward, I hate his co-workers.

ps. Phil Kelly and his "Wolfie Wolferton from Wolfensville, Wolfconsin, who likes to drive his Wolfilac down to the Wolfopolious for Wolfimania Tuesdays" needs a limit on the wolf count, suprised they let that slide too.

jadebullet wrote: 4) He really likes to kill the Sisters of Battle, especially in the Grey Knight codex. There really was no reason why the Grey Knights would slaughter the Sisters and wear their blood, even if it somehow magically protected them from demons. It just isn't a thought process that anyone would really have upon seeing the last holdout against the invasion.

Except for cold hearted post-human daemon hunters.

Right now they suffer too much from telling, rather than showing, as evidenced by Matt Ward's writing in the Codex Space Marines codex. If they are supposed to be as Ward says they are, then there should be evidence of it.

This is a common problem with Codex fluff, but I feel it stems more from the medium than any failure on the part of the writers. When space is at a premium, you can't insert a three page wall-of-text story every time you want the reader to know how bad-ass someone or something is.

I recently finished "The Emperor's Gift" which centers around the first war for Armageddon, and the defeat of Angron by the Grey Knights. During the critical fight scene one Grey Knight, a captain, fights and banishes Angron, a Daemon Primarch, and dies in the process. This is almost the exact same scene we are given when Draigo fights and banishes Mortarion. One is excellently written, and one is not. But one takes a single paragraph, while the other takes an entire chapter, and I think the difference in quality is more due to the restrictions placed on a Codex writer than anything else.

Kaldor wrote:

jadebullet wrote: 4) He really likes to kill the Sisters of Battle, especially in the Grey Knight codex. There really was no reason why the Grey Knights would slaughter the Sisters and wear their blood, even if it somehow magically protected them from demons. It just isn't a thought process that anyone would really have upon seeing the last holdout against the invasion.

Except for cold hearted post-human daemon hunters.

Aside from it being totally out of what 99% would have considered to be in-character for the Grey Knights. The book still drips words like "honour, valour, mastery, sanctity, exemplar, purity, true, fate", etc. Blood sacrifice and annointment in the manner of Khorne doesn't fit that image, too much cognitive dissonance, and it's not backed up really much at all, it's an isolated, highly awkward incident.

This is a common problem with Codex fluff, but I feel it stems more from the medium than any failure on the part of the writers. When space is at a premium, you can't insert a three page wall-of-text story every time you want the reader to know how bad-ass someone or something is.

I recently finished "The Emperor's Gift" which centers around the first war for Armageddon, and the defeat of Angron by the Grey Knights. During the critical fight scene one Grey Knight, a captain, fights and banishes Angron, a Daemon Primarch, and dies in the process. This is almost the exact same scene we are given when Draigo fights and banishes Mortarion. One is excellently written, and one is not. But one takes a single paragraph, while the other takes an entire chapter, and I think the difference in quality is more due to the restrictions placed on a Codex writer than anything else.

Yet, somehow, despite having similar stories of bravery and sacrifice and nobility in other codex books, it only seems goofy in Mat Ward's stuff. The whole 'carving a name into a daemon primarch's heart" thing was ludicrous. It's one thing to banish a powerful daemon, it's another to make it your *****. Page restriction isn't the issue, Mat Ward just doesn't know, or doesn't care to be, subtle or contextual.

Let's see, is Draigo Mary Sue?

The Mary Sue character is either tougher, smarter, and/or cooler than the established characters but wins their admiration, or nicer, sweeter, and/or more charming than the established characters and wins their love.

Check

(S)he also sometimes appears tortured with a tragic past, winning first pity then love.

Check ish not much pity nor love

Either way, the setting's protagonists are upstaged by a perfect character.

Check almost, Ultramarines are obviously the perfect ones as all marines aspire to be like them (including the Grey Knights who come in a close second)

If the new character dies in the story, there is extensive grieving.

Joy to the World...

Vaktathi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

jadebullet wrote: 4) He really likes to kill the Sisters of Battle, especially in the Grey Knight codex. There really was no reason why the Grey Knights would slaughter the Sisters and wear their blood, even if it somehow magically protected them from demons. It just isn't a thought process that anyone would really have upon seeing the last holdout against the invasion.

Except for cold hearted post-human daemon hunters.

Aside from it being totally out of what 99% would have considered to be in-character for the Grey Knights. The book still drips words like "honour, valour, mastery, sanctity, exemplar, purity, true, fate", etc. Blood sacrifice and annointment in the manner of Khorne doesn't fit that image, too much cognitive dissonance, and it's not backed up really much at all, it's an isolated, highly awkward incident.

Except it perfectly highlights the total pragmatism of the Grey Knights, doing anything necessary to defeat the arch enemy, sacrificing innocents where necessary.

This is a common problem with Codex fluff, but I feel it stems more from the medium than any failure on the part of the writers. When space is at a premium, you can't insert a three page wall-of-text story every time you want the reader to know how bad-ass someone or something is.

I recently finished "The Emperor's Gift" which centers around the first war for Armageddon, and the defeat of Angron by the Grey Knights. During the critical fight scene one Grey Knight, a captain, fights and banishes Angron, a Daemon Primarch, and dies in the process. This is almost the exact same scene we are given when Draigo fights and banishes Mortarion. One is excellently written, and one is not. But one takes a single paragraph, while the other takes an entire chapter, and I think the difference in quality is more due to the restrictions placed on a Codex writer than anything else.

Yet, somehow, despite having similar stories of bravery and sacrifice and nobility in other codex books, it only seems goofy in Mat Ward's stuff. The whole 'carving a name into a daemon primarch's heart" thing was ludicrous. It's one thing to banish a powerful daemon, it's another to make it your *****. Page restriction isn't the issue, Mat Ward just doesn't know, or doesn't care to be, subtle or contextual.

Page restriction is almost entirely the issue. You could take that short paragraph mentioning Mortarions defeat, and expand it just as easily as ADB did with the defeat of Angron.

It takes time (space) to show us, but only a short sentence or paragraph to tell us something. To tell the story through subtle use of context would have required the codex to blow out triple or more it's size.

The telling, rather than showing thing is an issue with the page restriction, but the issue is that in order to counter that, Ward goes way too far and it just comes off as campy and telly. Things like carving a name into a demons heart, mind linking with the hive mind, and lying down injured while your entire army forms a wall of corpses around you in order to save your sorry ass just seem overblown. Though I like the last one. Ward builds up the guy so much, saying how badass he is, and he turns to the reader, looks them right in the eye and says, "you know how bad ass he is? This one time, he got his ass kicked, and his army just stood there around him, baracading the enemy from him with their corpses."

Achteskaya!

Matt Ward hate thread in 3... 2.. 1...

Not like this hasn't been discussed for the 5,000th time...

But to answer your question seriously if you really have never heard about Matt Ward before:

He is a bad writer who writes codexes. That is all. Nothing to nerd rage about. The only thing that's bad his tedious grimdark writing style and lack of balance or interest in characters.

Some people rage about things that other people claim he did but which never actually happened. For example, the claim that he wrote about companies of Gray Knights that are actively worshipping and serving Khorne.

Kaldor wrote:
Except it perfectly highlights the total pragmatism of the Grey Knights, doing anything necessary to defeat the arch enemy, sacrificing innocents where necessary.

Right, I get that. It's still doesn't fit with the rest of the imagery and isn't really backed up and reinforced. It's awkward and hamfisted, and isolated example without anything similar before or since, and doesn't fit the visual or feel of the Grey Knights. Had they killed the sisters to destroy the knowledge of the daemonic incursion having ever occurred, or killed them because somehow the sister's presence drew the Daemons to the world, that would be fine. Nobody would have a problem with that.

Annointing themselves with the blood of slaughtered allies is a page straight out of 'How to be a Khornate Cultists for Dummies, Chapter 1", not something people imagine or expect when they think of the Grey Knights.

Page restriction is almost entirely the issue. You could take that short paragraph mentioning Mortarions defeat, and expand it just as easily as ADB did with the defeat of Angron.

It takes time (space) to show us, but only a short sentence or paragraph to tell us something. To tell the story through subtle use of context would have required the codex to blow out triple or more it's size.

And again, only Mat Ward's works seem to have this issue, other codex writers don't seem to get the same sort of hate. There's a reason for that. Draigo had two pages of fluff, significantly more than most characters, if he can't manage it in twice the space other characters get and don't have the same ridiculous overblown issues, then it's not a space issue.

Mat Ward just writes like an over-excited 12 year old. Other writers don't have the same issue, especially not with characters that get two pages for a unit entry instead of the usual one.

Hey, at least he's not Gav Twerp...err...Thorpe. Anyone remember him?

TR

Vaktathi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
Except it perfectly highlights the total pragmatism of the Grey Knights, doing anything necessary to defeat the arch enemy, sacrificing innocents where necessary.

Right, I get that. It's still doesn't fit with the rest of the imagery and isn't really backed up and reinforced. It's awkward and hamfisted, and isolated example without anything similar before or since, and doesn't fit the visual or feel of the Grey Knights. Had they killed the sisters to destroy the knowledge of the daemonic incursion having ever occurred, or killed them because somehow the sister's presence drew the Daemons to the world, that would be fine. Nobody would have a problem with that.

Annointing themselves with the blood of slaughtered allies is a page straight out of 'How to be a Khornate Cultists for Dummies, Chapter 1", not something people imagine or expect when they think of the Grey Knights.

It has always been sort of a paradox in European "witch hunting" mythology that the witch hunters were just as, if not more, versed in Dark arts as the witches themselves...really, the whole episode sounds exactly what a Daemon Hunter would do. Everything is justified by greater good (not Greater Good).

I might note that in Space Wolves codex, Space wolves began killing Sisters for apparently no reason at all.

That said, Ward is not a very good writer, but not for the reason people usually cite (pretty much same thing as "Phantom Menace" was not bad because of Jar-Jar Binks). I could go on and on about his failings, but it can be summed up simply: Ward has no understanding of the concept "Less is more".

Trench-Raider wrote:Hey, at least he's not Gav Twerp...err...Thorpe. Anyone remember him?

Yes, he is the author of the fantastic Dark Elves army book. And he wrote 3 novels fleshing out the background of them (Malekith etc.). He was responsible to keep GW background on track and is missed badly.

My opinions of Matt ward go in two directions.

1 - Throw the bum out because his writing style is a blight on the cherished past of 40k and his rules are OTT and most of the time unnecessary.

2 - Let him write all the remaining codexs. This way they will all be of equal power (broken) and true balance can return to the hobby.

I've often said, the only way to have a truly balanced fight (with the generals being equal) is if only matt ward books face off against matt ward books.

Kroothawk wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:Hey, at least he's not Gav Twerp...err...Thorpe. Anyone remember him?

Yes, he is the author of the fantastic Dark Elves army book. And he wrote 3 novels fleshing out the background of them (Malekith etc.). He was responsible to keep GW background on track and is missed badly.

Yes the fantastically power creeped Dark Elves, alongside Vampire Counts.

He wrote good novels and good fluff but, he is an absolute Horrible codex writer.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:Hey, at least he's not Gav Twerp...err...Thorpe. Anyone remember him?

Yes, he is the author of the fantastic Dark Elves army book. And he wrote 3 novels fleshing out the background of them (Malekith etc.). He was responsible to keep GW background on track and is missed badly.

Yes the fantastically power creeped Dark Elves, alongside Vampire Counts that pretty much if you didn't have them, you might as well pack your models up and leave.

He wrote good novels and good fluff, he is an absolute Horrible codex writer.

Mr.Thorpe wasn't the utter gakhead who broke the entirety of 7th edition though...

VC's could still always be insta-killed turn 1 by sniping their general. (or hell, they could even kill their own general if they miscast enough times!) Sure DE's could wreck you with their magic phase, and the shadestar + double hydra combo was dumb, but it wasn't unstoppable.
Both those armies still had weaknesses to pick on, which is why you didn't see them winning every single event but instead, typically placing alongside Skaven & Lizardmen as a part of the 'Big 4' competitive armies in 7th.

Daemons of Chaos on the other hand. Well, even the dirtiest DE list looked tame compared to them!

Daemons were the ultiment beat-stick, and were so badly OP that even a 7-year-old could take them and curbstomp most other players.

GK lore is just messed up in the extreme and i could never play them myself even if they were a balanced army.

What he did to memphiston is a complete joke S6 T6 he can fly and buff himself up to strength 10, he can take on Ork stompas and have a decent chance of winning, its BS and thats just 1 char in the BA book before you even get to the ass with the deathmask, or librerean dreadnoughts.

Necrons were balanced in 5th, but of course he ruined that aswell boosting them quite alot in 6th, though i grudgingly have to admit i do prefer the new fluff as it gives them so personality now.

I apparently look alot like him so we are planning to substitute me for him and bring sanity back to the game, i shall also write the new SW book in which we will become the best marines ever and everyone will praise russ as the best primarch ever.

Experiment 626 wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:Hey, at least he's not Gav Twerp...err...Thorpe. Anyone remember him?

Yes, he is the author of the fantastic Dark Elves army book. And he wrote 3 novels fleshing out the background of them (Malekith etc.). He was responsible to keep GW background on track and is missed badly.

Yes the fantastically power creeped Dark Elves, alongside Vampire Counts that pretty much if you didn't have them, you might as well pack your models up and leave.

He wrote good novels and good fluff, he is an absolute Horrible codex writer.

Mr.Thorpe wasn't the utter gakhead who broke the entirety of 7th edition though...

VC's could still always be insta-killed turn 1 by sniping their general. (or hell, they could even kill their own general if they miscast enough times!) Sure DE's could wreck you with their magic phase, and the shadestar + double hydra combo was dumb, but it wasn't unstoppable.
Both those armies still had weaknesses to pick on, which is why you didn't see them winning every single event but instead, typically placing alongside Skaven & Lizardmen as a part of the 'Big 4' competitive armies in 7th.

Daemons of Chaos on the other hand. Well, even the dirtiest DE list looked tame compared to them!

Daemons were the ultiment beat-stick, and were so badly OP that even a 7-year-old could take them and curbstomp most other players.

True enough on DoC, I will never argue against that, the problem is everyone seems to think it was completely peachy before Ward's ultimate mess was released onto the scene.

hobojebus wrote:What he did to memphiston is a complete joke S6 T6 he can fly and buff himself up to strength 10, he can take on Ork stompas and have a decent chance of winning, its BS and thats just 1 char in the BA book before you even get to the ass with the deathmask, or librerean dreadnoughts.

One Strength D hit from that very Stompa and Meph ceases to exist. I guess we'd better whine about Ghazghkull, Abaddon and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, they can take on Stompas too, after all. That you're complaining about Dante and Librarian Dreadnoughts is just silly, how are they OP?

I hate Ward because when they were remaking Daemonhunters I wished so bad that they were gonna make it into a joint GK/SoB codex.
I always saw them as two sides of the same coin.

Instead he made them some sort of worst enemies... not that that shows in the 6th ed allies rules, mind you.

But why, Ward. WHY that slowed story of bathing in Sister blood? WHY, YOU MONGOLOID, WHY!?

I'm just gonna ignore it and not think of it as canon. My GKs ****ing love the Sisters.

hobojebus wrote:I apparently look alot like him so we are planning to substitute me for him and bring sanity back to the game, i shall also write the new SW book in which we will become the best marines ever and everyone will praise russ as the best primarch ever.

Is this you?

Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

Kaldor wrote:Except it perfectly highlights the total pragmatism of the Grey Knights, doing anything necessary to defeat the arch enemy, sacrificing innocents where necessary.

It's not the pragmatism, but the choice of sacrifice I find repugnant. And the whole bathing in blood thing. It's just OTT. It is, as many have mentioned about Ward's writing, the wild fantasies of a 14 year old.
It's just piss poor writing. Try reading the books of Joe Abercrombie for example.
There you can read about pragmatism and a mindset that devours countries and people, and still everything is much more subtle and well thought out.
Bathing in blood has nothing to do with how the GK used to be.

He might aswell have said that GK covered their armour in the bones of dead daemons (which actually would have been less OTT) and then released a whole new range of GK looking like a cross between orcs and space marines.

The pragmatism argument only comes in if it is fact that the blood is what protects them, and Ward CREATED that fact. He could have created something less stupid.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

Has Matt Ward stopped ruining things?

Guys guys, break it down logically! It all makes sense.

GK are perfect bastions of the Imperial faith and have never succumbed to the taint of chaos. They are demi-god super warriors to the scale of making even the mighty Ultrasmurfs wither away before their awesome.

Sisters of Battle are epic pyromaniacs and very faithful, disciplined, skilled amazon warrior bad asses, but have succumbed to the taint of chaos, and really are perfectly fallible/mortal despite aforementioned faith/discipline/pyromania

Therefore, applying the blood of the Sisters of Battle to one's armor would OBVIOUSLY make one even MORE demon resilient well above and beyond the many layers of anti-demon stuff ranging from wards and blessings to the intense physical, mental and spiritual training of the Grey Knights, again noted to be extreme even in the eyes of a veteran normal space marine.

So as you can see it clearly... oh, wait yes that makes no sense at all. Unless you wanted to distract the demon you were about to slit up by disguising yourself as it's favorite snack, the blood of the innocent, which sounds a lot more like a sacrifice to me... but really that's a stretch and not how a knight concerned with honor and all that good stuff should behave. *checks a book on chivalry* Yep, nothing in here about dicing up allies, or ladies for that matter in the event of convenience against a terrible foe.... wait.... well I suppose you could call it cowardice. Not trust in one's own training, weapon, comrades, honor and faith to carry the day and instead having to hid behind cheap charms and tricks... or again the blood of innocents.

Bottom line? SoBs should all get Preferred Enemy: Grey Knights and Matt Ward needs to have his pen and word processor taken away.

Tazay wrote:I have been hearing a lot of Matt Ward lately. And I was wondering who he exactly was, and why everyone hates him? Or dislikes him.

This is the most balanced article on Matt Ward: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matt_Ward

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Bottom line? SoBs should all get Preferred Enemy: Grey Knights and Matt Ward needs to have his pen and word processor taken away.

Can't we just agree that that whole episode was some malicious rumour started by a deranged lunatic?
It makes no sense, so it obviously isn't true.

GK and SoB should both get preferred enemy: people that think that's what happened.

I can see it now. A GK and an SoB were on a romantic date. All in love and it's not like a neutered GK is gonna be able to defile the pure SoB, so they're sort of just left to it. Chapters turning a blind eye. So there they are. In love at a café, enjoying a decaf soya latte, when a daemon turns up, lured there by the sweet smell of... well, you know. So the daemon splatters the SoB all over the GK. The GK just saw the love of his life dismembered. He, despite his training, just sits there in shock, covered in SoB blood... and then some deranged lunatic passes by and draws his own conclusions.

And this story still makes more sense than the alternative

Codex GK nuff said Matt Ward do one.

Purifier wrote:The pragmatism argument only comes in if it is fact that the blood is what protects them, and Ward CREATED that fact. He could have created something less stupid.

I get that you don't like it. But I don't get why?

Further, there should be no real relation between the Grey Knights at the Sisters of Battle. The Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Inquisition. The Sisters are the militant arm of the Church.

Very different things.

Kaldor wrote:
I get that you don't like it. But I don't get why?

Further, there should be no real relation between the Grey Knights at the Sisters of Battle. The Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Inquisition. The Sisters are the militant arm of the Church.

Very different things.

First of all, I already told you. it's the hyperbole writing of a 14 year old. It's gakky writing. Second, I refer you to Kalashnikovs post:

Therefore, applying the blood of the Sisters of Battle to one's armor would OBVIOUSLY make one even MORE demon resilient well above and beyond the many layers of anti-demon stuff ranging from wards and blessings to the intense physical, mental and spiritual training of the Grey Knights, again noted to be extreme even in the eyes of a veteran normal space marine.

So as you can see it clearly... oh, wait yes that makes no sense at all.

and as far as SHOULD goes, what do you mean SHOULD? Are you implying that fluff has never changed before? I think it would be perfectly fine if it turns out that the church the Sisters follow is just another section of the church the Inquisitors get their directives from. It wouldn't be as huge as GKs all of a sudden turning Sisters into blood-sponges and performing Khorne-like rituals.

The GK are built on a sort of pedestal of knight in shining armour and fully aware of it. And that's what I like about them. They are self rightous pricks. And they would never do something that makes them look like Khorne-worshippers. They would, they way I have seen them, more likely claim this to be Chaos-like and condemn it.

ultramarines would do whatever they could to gain the advantage. That's why they are easy to corrupt. GKs don't. They are already made of awesomenite.

Having to wear a flamer retardant suit to open a thread named Mat Ward.

Purifier wrote:First of all, I already told you.

No, you're pretty much just ranting.

Are you upset that the blood of an innocent could be used to ward against the bloodtide? Are you upset that the Sisters of Battle happened to be the innocents in question? I don't get it.

I think it would be perfectly fine if it turns out that the church the Sisters follow is just another section of the church the Inquisitors get their directives from.

You want to make the Inquisition, who are answerable only to the Emperor himself, get their directives from the church?

Why?

Kaldor wrote:

Purifier wrote:First of all, I already told you.

No, you're pretty much just ranting.

You just cut out the part where I repeated the explanation.

IT'S THE HYPERBOLE WRITING OF A 14 YEAR OLD. IT'S BAD WRITING.

Kaldor wrote:You want to make the Inquisition, who are answerable only to the Emperor himself, get their directives from the church?

Why?

Why not?

The real inquisition were catholic. Answerable only to God, yet a part of the church.

Purifier wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Purifier wrote:First of all, I already told you.

No, you're pretty much just ranting.

You just cut out the part where I repeated the explanation.

Look, I hate to break it to you but that's not really an explanation. That's your opinion.

I'm asking you to flesh it out a bit, so I can understand your opinion.

What parts are hyperbole? Why do you think they are?

Why not?

Because that would be a drastic re-organisation of the background material. A huge shake-up on a scale never before seen, that would fundamentally change the entire background of the Imperium, invalidating the background of every other codex as well as the core rulebook, and the end result would be a lack of diversity within Imperial background and a much more bland faction over-all, as it removed much of the political infighting between the various organisations and simply replaced it with the Ministorum, who rule everyone.

Purifier wrote:I hate Ward because when they were remaking Daemonhunters I wished so bad that they were gonna make it into a joint GK/SoB codex.
I always saw them as two sides of the same coin.

Maybe you, but almost no-one else did. "Witch Hunters" codex was always an aberration, forced marriage of two very different and completely separate organizations. One might just as well hope for combined IG/GK-codex.


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Purifier wrote:
The GK are built on a sort of pedestal of knight in shining armour and fully aware of it. And that's what I like about them. They are self rightous pricks. And they would never do something that makes them look like Khorne-worshippers. They would, they way I have seen them, more likely claim this to be Chaos-like and condemn it.

As Grey Knights-codex explains, they see no conflict between their own use of sorcery and abhorrance of Daemon. And it makes sense, in a way. UN Peacekeepers carry guns and ride tanks, after all....

Kaldor wrote:

Look, I hate to break it to you but that's not really an explanation. That's your opinion.

I'm asking you to flesh it out a bit, so I can understand your opinion.

What parts are hyperbole? Why do you think they are?

Did you read Kalashnikovs post? that pretty much wrapped it all up. The whole thing is written with nothing more than the mindset of "wouldn't it be awesome if they like just totally killed their allies?"
It's not material to anything else. It's not like I'm the only one that finds it wanting either. A lot of people find it silly and uncalled for.

It's like Draigo. He just sort of wanders around the daemon-plane being so badass THEY are scared of HIM in THEIR home. It feels ridiculous.
Or the Paladins, that have to chase down and kill one of 666 daemons. Does that mean there can only be 666 paladins ever? And they'll obviously choose as easy one to chase as possible, so the last guy is gonna have one hell of a daemon to chase.

Or do they plop back out into the mortal plane? Then there has to be one of those daemons, a little easier to chase than the others, that feels like the dungeon boss of some MMO, getting chased over and over, killed over and over, every time some paladin needs toprove his mettle.

It's poorly thought out. It's bad prose. Like I said, read a Joe Abercrombie book or something. Then read the Matt Ward stuff again. It's like reading fan fiction for Harry Potter.

Kaldor wrote:
Because that would be a drastic re-organisation of the background material. A huge shake-up on a scale never before seen, that would fundamentally change the entire background of the Imperium, invalidating the background of every other codex as well as the core rulebook, and the end result would be a lack of diversity within Imperial background and a much more bland faction over-all, as it removed much of the political infighting between the various organisations and simply replaced it with the Ministorum, who rule everyone.

No need. All of that would be unchanged. Again, just look at the Catholic church. There is nothing in the history of man that has had more in-fighting. Them being different parts of the same church means nothing more than that.

Backfire wrote:

Purifier wrote:I hate Ward because when they were remaking Daemonhunters I wished so bad that they were gonna make it into a joint GK/SoB codex.
I always saw them as two sides of the same coin.

Maybe you, but almost no-one else did. "Witch Hunters" codex was always an aberration, forced marriage of two very different and completely separate organizations. One might just as well hope for combined IG/GK-codex.

This, however, is a fair point. I realise I am close to alone there.
It was a desire more in the realm of that I felt they were both very limited and to some extent boring codexes that would create variation in troops and tactics if pushed together properly.

Backfire wrote:As Grey Knights-codex explains, they see no conflict between their own use of sorcery and abhorrance of Daemon. And it makes sense, in a way. UN Peacekeepers carry guns and ride tanks, after all....

I feel like you have to draw the line somewhere, or you might as well also say they Worship Khorne for his boons in order to drive back the daemons. I draw my line before bathing in blood. It doesn't feel GK to me.

Purifier, you may not have noticed, but you're arguing with a guy who calls himself Kaldor. His avatar is that of a Grey Knight. Do you see an end to this argument where he suddenly agrees with you? We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

It's the whole immovable object/unstoppable logic force thing. He can't be moved, but that also means you can just walk away. Walls can't give chase.

Purifier wrote:
I feel like you have to draw the line somewhere, or you might as well also say they Worship Khorne for his boons in order to drive back the daemons. I draw my line before bathing in blood. It doesn't feel GK to me.

Just because something has blood in it doesn't mean Khorne. Khaine, for example, is also god of blood.

In fact, Khorne hates magic and despises spells, so what the GK did was very non-Khorne.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Purifier, you may not have noticed, but you're arguing with a guy who calls himself Kaldor. His avatar is that of a Grey Knight. Do you see an end to this argument where he suddenly agrees with you? We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

It's the whole immovable object/unstoppable logic force thing. He can't be moved, but that also means you can just walk away. Walls can't give chase.

You know what, you're right. I got a bit carried away and started frantically waving my dick around. I'll put it back where it belongs and calm down.

Purifier wrote:Did you read Kalashnikovs post? that pretty much wrapped it all up. The whole thing is written with nothing more than the mindset of "wouldn't it be awesome if they like just totally killed their allies?"
It's not material to anything else. It's not like I'm the only one that finds it wanting either. A lot of people find it silly and uncalled for.

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Try and be specific.

No need. All of that would be unchanged. Again, just look at the Catholic church. There is nothing in the history of man that has had more in-fighting. Them being different parts of the same church means nothing more than that.

You need to brush up on your background material.

Kaldor wrote:So I ask again.

So you do.

Kaldor wrote:
Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide?

Uh, this.

Any hardline inquisitor would be appalled by it. Which is why it's very unfluffy. Hardline inquisitor-types performing a dark sorcerous ritual to fight chaos.

Ward got a good rep from the company for his work on the LotR properties, where he only had to write rules and never got to touch the fluff. He also wrote the rules for all the armies. I will go out on a limb here and say that Ward does wright good rules, for the most part. His books tend to have multiple builds you can play, they generally age well, and they match up very well against each other. He gets raked over the coals for the Fantasy Daemons book, but that was a rush job, plus Gav's VC and DE books were far worse for destroying the integrity of the game. Now stack Ward's books against those of any other author, especially CRUDdace, and the wheels come off, rules wise.

Where Ward jumps the shark is when he is allowed to touch the fluff. They never should have let him touch anything after the vanilla marine book, where he arbitrarily changed things like randomly tossing in "Rogal Dorn croaked at some point" and every book that followed has been steadily worse. The Necron stuff makes me want to murder him in his sleep, for example. Plus I don't know why he feels the need to kill Sisters in progressively pointless and gruesome ways. Cruddace should be in charge of the fluff and Ward should write rules.

Ward deserves the hate he gets for randomly rewriting decades old fluff on a whim, but Cruddace is far worse with his crappy rules killing entire army lines in the company.

The point Purifier is trying to make is this.
Take example of this Grimdarkian, now I take it half of dakka will think its over board GRIM DARK FOR THE SAKE OF GRIMDARK.
While the other half will totally think its awesome etc etc, it's the mind set.
We all know Sisters can be left alone if GK just asked for their used tampons, but no, we have to do it the GRIM DARKER WAY.... ( idiot GKs )



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Kaldor wrote:

Purifier wrote:Did you read Kalashnikovs post? that pretty much wrapped it all up. The whole thing is written with nothing more than the mindset of "wouldn't it be awesome if they like just totally killed their allies?"
It's not material to anything else. It's not like I'm the only one that finds it wanting either. A lot of people find it silly and uncalled for.

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Try and be specific.

No need. All of that would be unchanged. Again, just look at the Catholic church. There is nothing in the history of man that has had more in-fighting. Them being different parts of the same church means nothing more than that.

You need to brush up on your background material.

I think Purifier has been plenty specific enough times. There is a difference between agreeing with him ( which you certainly dont have to), vs claiming you dont get what he is saying (when he explained it clearly and others
seem to get it ).

Yes the fantastically power creeped Dark Elves, alongside Vampire Counts.

He (Gav Thorpe) wrote good novels and good fluff but, he is an absolute Horrible codex writer.

Not only that, but if you read interviews with him at the height of his activity he comes across as an arrogant yet clueless little punk. This made him all the worse in my book. That and the mullet he sported in his photos circa 2000 made me want to strangle him....

Ward deserves the hate he gets for randomly rewriting decades old fluff on a whim

That is pretty contemptable in my book as well....and something Gav was also guilty of. (he once gloated about it stating that he was like a "god" since he could make changes on a whim) But to be honest I notice broken rules/codex far more than I do background as I almost never bother reading the fluff any more. If I wanted to read fluff I would crack out my Rogue Trader rulebook, the two Realm of Chaos books, Waarrgghhg the Orks, the original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book, etc as the original Ansell and priestly written material is as good as or better than the crap that GW produces today.

I can;t speak to the novels as I can count on one hand (with fingers left over) how many GW produced novels I have read.

TR

Horus hersey series of novels are awesome

mcpothead wrote:Horus hersey series of novels are awesome

Some of them are. Others not so much.

*sits back and pops popcorn into mouth*

I LOVE Ward threads.

Kaldor wrote:
What parts are hyperbole? Why do you think they are?

Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

You are talking about Mat Ward and this pleases him.

That being said, he is capable of writing heinous fluff and rules sets that are easily exploitable. Ignoring said fluff and using his codices like a civilized human being, you can make fun and competitive lists without causing butthurt. Just because you can take three dreadknight doesn't mean you should. The problem is with his work is that it doesn't take much mental fortitude to exploit some if his codices to make other people not want play. I would have to believe that his Mary Sue fluff and over the top rules are coming at the direction of management in order to sell more books and models.

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:You are talking about Mat Ward and this pleases him.

That being said, he is capable of writing heinous fluff and rules sets that are easily exploitable. Ignoring said fluff and using his codices like a civilized human being, you can make fun and competitive lists without causing butthurt. Just because you can take three dreadknight doesn't mean you should. The problem is with his work is that it doesn't take much mental fortitude to exploit some if his codices to make other people not want play. I would have to believe that his Mary Sue fluff and over the top rules are coming at the direction of management in order to sell more books and models.

this.

And welcome to Dakka Dakka mate

Ok you know what bothers me about Draigo? How can he still be the GK supreme grand master if he is lost in the warp? Why don't they appoint a new one? Ignoring the fact that he wanders around the realm of chaos without turning into a spawn, or that he burned Nurgle's garden, or that he tore down the Inevitable City ... why don't the Grey Knights just appoint a new leader?

Kaldor wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it. How do you know what mindset it was written in? Besides, Grey Knights are notorious for killing their allies. They killed trillions of loyal Imperial citizens after the first war for Armageddon, and the codex makes mention of them killing their allies after the battle is done on multiple occasions.

So I ask again. Which part didn't you like? The fact that innocent blood could be used in a ward against the bloodtide? The fact that Sisters were used as the source of that innocent blood? And why didn't you like it?

Actually, the Grey Knights themselves don't kill their allies, rather the Inquisitors who follow them around do that dirty task.

The whole Bloodtide thing would have been miles better if Ward had simply wrote it in a similar way to how the GK's used the sisters in the first Grey Knights novel... (ie: as a nice diversion to keep Gargatuloth's minions busy while the few knights made their way to the heart of the daemon prince's tomb. The end result was pretty much all the sisters getting their cute little @$$es handed to them and being killed by both the daemonic forces and the idiot guardsmen led by the crazy commissar who did the renegade inquisitor's bidding!)

Outright killing the sisters and lambasting their armour with 'the blood of the innocent' is beyond childishly stupid. However, the GK's willingly sending the sisters in first to be slaughtered, soaking the ground in their innocent blood, then the knights coming in behind chanting their prayers & devotions would have been MUCH more in character for them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

Grey Knights may kill their allies after a battle, but they don't usually go around killing loyal forces BEFORE a battle. Besides, Grey Knights are supposed to be incorruptible because of their amazing training, strength of will, and geneseed. Why do they need to bathe in SoB blood at all?

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be. I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Mat Ward isn't bad. I'm not his biggest fan, but I don't want the next Tau codex to have "By Mat Ward" under the Title. Mostly because I still hold hope that GW will hire back Andy Hoare JUST for him to do that Tau book.

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

Would you prefer fluff contradiction? It is what it is. If that is what he and or management wanted then that's what we get. It does not mitigate that they are writing counter factual history but they dictate it. This is just an observation. Just to be perfectly clear, I don't care either way.

Vaktathi wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

So you concede that there was bad fluff then, just as now. Great. Nothing to do with my point. Fluff and direction is whatever GW decides to take it. Not how you think it should go. And thus there is no violation in the first place. I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of Rouge Trader veterans who wish for the good ol' days before all the writers decide to VIOLATE the fluff of the setting.

his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

Ward's codices are on par with the rest except for that his make them painfully obvious on how and what to exploit.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Besides, Grey Knights are supposed to be incorruptible because of their amazing training, strength of will, and geneseed. Why do they need to bathe in SoB blood at all?

People, pay attention. THIS is a legitimate criticism. Noisy Marine takes part of the text in question, and explains why it bothers him. When we don't like something, and we want to have a discussion about it (and I assume that's why we're in this thread?) this is how we should do it. We should not just bukakke words like 'hyperbole' or 'over-excited' or '12 year-old' into the thread. You should point out what you don't like, and why you don't like it,

Now, to address Noisy Marine's complaint: The Grey Knights are immune to the temptations of Chaos. Or rather, they have never succumbed. Whether that is through force of will or some innate immunity is not known, although doubtless it is a blend of the two, and some individuals will tend more towards the extremes.

However, Grey Knights are not immune, and have never been immune to the effects of Chaos. They can still be burned by the flames of Tzeench or diseased by the Plagues of Nurgle. The Aegis helps to protect them, but it is far from immunity. The Bloodtide would obviously have affected them. The Bloodtide is an odd daemonic entity, a one-of-a-kind thing that isn't encountered during routine missions. A ward against it requires a specific ingredient: the blood of the innocent. So the Grey Knights took it from the only source at hand - the Sisters of Battle.

The Grey Knights have never had any problem with extreme methods. In their mind, no method is too extreme when combating the arch-enemy. And they have never had any problem with killing innocents or allies, nor using sorcery against the enemy. This story serves nicely, IMO, to illustrate the ruthless and extreme nature of the Grey Knights and the Inquisition.

Pacific wrote:Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

I have. Can't recommend it enough, it's an excellent novel. Get it from Amazon or some other third party site to save some cash.

FallenAfh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

ShitstainGuardsmen wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We can all look to the sheer outrage that spills forth from the breathless 12-year-old fan-fiction-y writing that Ward puts out, how it even got so bad that 4Chan banned topics on it for a while, how no other writer generates such active and unceasing contempt and then from that draw a conclusion that maybe - just maybe - something might be wrong with the Ward codices and not us. But he won't, and thus there is no point in continuing.

Bullcrap. 4chan /tg/ loves Ward now (atleast in the tsundere-ish, NO ITS NOT LIKE I LOVE YOUR CODEX). Its generally accepted by most fa/tg/uys that Ward's crunch is solid, and that his fluff is no worse then any of the other writers (present and past). Just be prepared for the usual 1d3 lines of text in each book that haters like to blow out of proportion every single time.

Most people will take Ward over Cruddace (and some Kelly) any day of the week. Bottom line is, Ward is no worse then any of the other authors that have written for GW.

I think his codices are more easy to exploit than other writers but this pretty spot on. People love to over blow his fluff violations, some odd it sucks but in the end you're not going to make it go away.

Fluff violation? Fluff is whatever GW says it is (and you will notice that Matt Ward is a member of the GW writing team), not whatever YOU want it to be or think it should be.

That doesn't mean it can't be bad, or stupid, or poorly written and that people can't point that out.

I remember all the rage over the Dante/Silent King alliance, OMG NECRONS ARE MINDLESS EVIL, NOW THEY ARE BFFS FOREVER WARHAMMER 40K IS RUINED. When the more observant of us would point out that the Necron book was due for an update and most likely would have a fluff reboot too. I'll wager you that 5 years from now, that there will be a whole new generation of Necron players who will be raging if they were to revert to the old MINDLESS NOT-TYRANID, CTAN DID EVERYTHING oldcrons.

Most didn't like the "C'tan did everything" fluff either, the problem was that they turned the essence of what the Necrons were, a silent slumbering legion of deadly killers, into a copy/paste clone of Tomb Kings...just "In Spaaaaaaaaaaace!", when they could have gone so many other routes.

So you concede that there was bad fluff then, just as now. Great. Nothing to do with my point. Fluff and direction is whatever GW decides to take it. Not how you think it should go. And thus there is no violation in the first place. I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of Rouge Trader veterans who wish for the good ol' days before all the writers decide to VIOLATE the fluff of the setting.

Yes, it's whatever direction GW decides to take it, that doesn't mean it can't violate previously standing fluff, or that it's not awful. It just means GW can take it where it wants. That doesn't mean people have to like it, that it's good, or that GW's taking it the right direction, or that it *doesn't* violate the previously established setting.

I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this (possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

Oh Matt Ward. I wouldn't go so far a to say I hate him or anything, but he has done some annoying things to armys I like. New Necrons for example, I think if the new codex was their first incarnation I doubt I'd have a problem with them. However I loved their old fluff, so I was annoyed when it all got totally blown off. I think the main reason I don't like it is that there wasn't anything cripplingly wrong with the old fluff, re-writing everything just seemed so unnecessary. It also means that reading it now you see so much contradiction with what the old crons would have done (like allying with BA), reminding me they threw out a perfectly good story for no reason. Also Imotech, still can't believe they actually called him that. Just waiting for a slow and purposeful char called Tutan-can't-move and we'll be set.

As for the knights codex it has some issues too but for me not as many as the crons. Some of the fluff is just a bit icky, like the reference to them having acquired tesseract labyrinths from some unknown alien race (obviously the crons when you read their codex) which just seems off. And then theres the role of Grey Knight Grand Masters, you'd think they'd be in charge of the brotherhoods but no, that job is left to brother captains while the GMs are essentially diplomats. Which just seems not very grey knighty. And then you can have inquisitors with daemon weps and daemonhosts in the same army as knights. Not that I ever would, but I'm annoyed that its an option. The idea of GKs being some puritanical uncompromising daemon hunters doesn't work so well when they are marching to battle along side actual daemons. The old rule with radical and puritanical inquisitors was so much better IMO. And then yeah, some of the chars are over the top, well I'd expect that for GK's, thats the point, but I think Draigo's fluff is a tad too far.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

What's wrong with the Space Wolf dex ?

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

I have. Can't recommend it enough, it's an excellent novel. Get it from Amazon or some other third party site to save some cash.

Yes I know! I was just wondering how you can possibly have any time for the background in the Codex after having read that book..

I won't say 'bad writing' (in a literary sense), as obviously a codex writer has a much smaller area to play with, but I think it's incredible how much of a difference there is in terms of the aspect of how the GK are presented. I have to be honest I found a lot of the codex stuff almost embarrassing to read by comparison, it's like it has been written for a 4-second attention span 12-year old. Not realising of course that most younger kids that play Warhammer have the ability (and actually want) to read material that it more 'adult', and doesn't stretch that suspension of disbelief so far while reading like some kind of weird, comic-book version of events in the Bible.

Anyway.. if I had my way, I would rip out the background section of the GK codex so that just the rule stats remained, put the Emperor's Gift in its place, and include them with the minis in a battleforce boxset..

Now that's a good idea for box sets. Stick Black Library books in with the minis! for example the Imperial Guard - a Ciaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts book, preferably the first in the series, or one of the other novels like 15 Hours. Something that focuses directly from the perspective of the army in the box. Or failing that (I don't think there's a book from an Ork perspective for example) a book that deals with the Orkz directly a lot.

Considering the target customer for the battle force is the new player, it's a brilliant move as it'll get the boot in question reading more of the fluff and more excited about their army choice. I know the books on the IG sold me just as much as the very awesome miniatures and... well tanks.

(the vanilla Marines box could have a copy of Bolter and Chainsword or something that show cases multiple chapters)

Pacific wrote:Yes I know! I was just wondering how you can possibly have any time for the background in the Codex after having read that book..

lol, the background in the codex isn't the best, but I think it's about par for the course with most codex fluff. I don't care about Draigo's warp romp. I actually think it's pretty cool, having him wander around in there stuck forever. But I don't particularly like him (despite my user-name) because he's a bit flat. All we know about him is that he kicks serious ass.

Mordrak annoys me more, to be honest. I think he's a bit lame, and the idea of Ghost Knights doesn't really fit with my idea of the Grey Knights.

I have no problem with the Bloodtide story at all, and honestly I think most of the people who rave on about it are just band-wagoning.

And I think The Emperor's Gift validates the fluff in the codex, more than anything, as it manages to take the framework set out in the codex and use it to tell a fantastic story with excellent characters. I liked the way the Paladins were described and their interaction with Hyperion, and (I'm not sure if spoilers?) the way the Grey Knights went out of their way to unleash exterminatus on several planets almost just to prove a point.

There's only really ever been a few items that seem to grind peoples gears (Draigo and the Bloodtide) and I think the rest of the background in the codex is pretty solid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Now that's a good idea for box sets. Stick Black Library books in with the minis! for example the Imperial Guard - a Ciaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts book, preferably the first in the series, or one of the other novels like 15 Hours. Something that focuses directly from the perspective of the army in the box. Or failing that (I don't think there's a book from an Ork perspective for example) a book that deals with the Orkz directly a lot.

Brilliant!

mcpothead wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

What's wrong with the Space Wolf dex ?

Besides being

1: Cheaper than Normal space marines, but better

2: The same cost as CSM, but far better.

3: Cheaper, but better devestators

4: Horrible internal codex point costs (I really want to see a bloodclaw list someday)

5: Part of the power trio of 5th.

And then there's the small perks. "What's that, Chaplains give rerolls on the charge? Well, Wolf Priests give Preferred Enemy! Your Librarian is WS4? Well, my Rune Priest, who totally isn't a psyker, gets WS5! Everyone lost Adamantine Mantles from 4th? Well, we have this here Belt of Russ..."

Not to mention Wolf Wolfborn on his Wolf with his Wolf Claws, Wolftooth Necklace and Wolf Woofmaster 3000 wolfwolfwolf.

1. Space Wolves are better than normal space marines
2. They are exactly the same stats as CSM
3. Better in what way they have special rules? Like BA,DA and every other major chapter?
4. Blood Claws are too expensive I agree with that.
5. Power trio ??

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Space Wolves are not that hard to beat just tarpit the silly deathstar characters and mop up everything else.

Space Wolves aren't "better", fluffwise, they're "different". Counter Attack, acute senses, extra CCW AND bolters and all their extra gear (MotW, Wolf Banner, WTT) AND an extra special weapon slot instead of Combat Tactics, a heavy weapon and the Sergeant (the only major loss in 5th, which was still replaceable). They were significantly better at MSU Razorback spam for no additional cost.

Wolf Priests give perfered enemy to one particular type of enemy. If the unit it leads somehow never faces it, that ability didn't do much did it? Unlike your Chaplins who's ability will be used regardless of what they attack.

But lets talk Sanguinary Priests - FNP and FC for anyone within 6" Regardless of what they are, or who they are attacking. Yeah, that's fair.

Bloodclaws - 14 BC charging out of a LRC is a ton of fun. Their only drawback is you need to take them in large groups.

But lets talk Death Co. only 5 more points and they get FC, FNP, +2 WS, +1 BS, +1A. Go overboard much?

Belt of Russ - Funny last time I checked Iron Halos are still around.

Yes, Grey Hunters are probably a little undercosted. But unlike Tac marines, they actually lost a little something going into 6th. Accute Senses don't do them anything. So there is one notch down, and unless you take a WG your testing for counter charge on LD 8. Unlike say combat tactics which do not require a test, or choosing to combat squad which can always be done if you choose.

Wargear names - Have you read any of the previous SW codexs? Nothing changed there, Wolf _ _ is a long standing tradition for naming stuff. Have you read the BA codex. Blood fists. Here he changed the name of a weapon for no other reason than to add blood into the name. It doesn't function any differently than before.

Cruddace has written several bad codexes. Ask any actual long term IG player how they feel about the guard book and they will be the first to tell you that five undercosted units in an ocean of feces does not make for a good book. His Nid, Sisters, and Tomb Kings efforts were all terrible. His pamphlet add on for Daemons is stupidly bad. The jury is still out on the new Empire book, but its not looking too good right now.

Phail Kelly is hit and miss, but none of his book ever age well. Eldar were initially too good at killing marines and got whined about to the point where entire core rules were changed to nerf them in subsequent editions. He wrote the first Ogre book, which was at least fun to lose with. He wrote Dark Eldar which went from whine inducing to crap in exactly one year, due to the edition change. He wrote the Cheese Wolves, who are is one good effort thanks to basically being a practical 2nd edition book, thus they have aged well. He wrote Beastmen, which is a flaming turd that we will be stuck with for another decade.

Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

mcpothead wrote:1. Space Wolves are better than normal space marines
2. They are exactly the same stats as CSM
3. Better in what way they have special rules? Like BA,DA and every other major chapter?
4. Blood Claws are too expensive I agree with that.
5. Power trio ??

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Space Wolves are not that hard to beat just tarpit the silly deathstar characters and mop up everything else.

1. They are, but the price is actually in reverse as they are cheaper than normal space marines.

2. Yes, but CSM don't come with ATSKNF, cheaper weaponry, counter attack, acute senses. This is why Gray Hunters used to be 17 points above previous 15 point marines.

3. They can take an additional heavy weapon, their special ability on their squad leader is the far better "Split Fire" ability, allowing ones devastator squad to switch targets without combat squadding, and is still less expensive than any other army's lists.

4. The basic troop is about right, the problem is Grey hunters cheapness in comparison. Why would anyone take a BC over GH?

5. IG, GK, SW

Sure they aint hard to beat, the problem is they have a horrible internal codex pricing standard for it's units, to the point that near half or above is not used, not to mention their psykers are better, they can take things that were cut from all armies. (Still bitter over the loss of EW for captains, I'll admit that), can take additional HQ slots for their own...

As the MEQ army I do play is DA, you could say it does come off a bit of sour grapes, but one cannot deny that it is a poorly done codex that ended up high tier due to a few units.

Belt of Russ - Funny last time I checked Iron Halos are still around.

If you read it closer you'd see he's actually talking about Saga of the Bear, which grants Eternal Warrior.

To be honest, I wish they had some new blood, the guy who did up OnG for Fantasy is a wonderful codex writer from what I've seen thus far.

I've noticed Matt Ward is very Space Marine oriented. Makes vanilla marines extremely powerful. But screws over alien races.

I have noticed alot of complaints from SM players though. Seems no one likes his writing. He isn't a fan oriented writer. He is a GW which we all know GW hates it's fans

Tazay wrote:I've noticed Matt Ward is very Space Marine oriented. Makes vanilla marines extremely powerful. But screws over alien races.

I have noticed alot of complaints from SM players though. Seems no one likes his writing. He isn't a fan oriented writer. He is a GW which we all know GW hates it's fans

Have you seen the Necron book? That thing is filthy (arguably his second best book in 5th, after c:sm) in 6th.

Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

As long as he keeps sending out over powered stuff and childish fanboy fluff, I think that the hate will continue.

Yeah, I derped with the Belt, Saga of the Bear is indeed the one I meant. And really, you choose PE at the start of the game. If it's Green Tide, pick Infantry. If it's Nob bikers, pick Bikes. If it's DoA, pick Jump Infantry. You get to rapid fire and STILL get Counter Attack if someone charges you, PE still works AND you now get Overwatch. Blood Claws are actually priced just about right, it's just that Grey Hunters are so ungodly powerful that they push away the Blood Claws. A 9-man GH squad and a Wolf Guard are still cheaper than a Tac Squad.

Then there's the Runic Weapons. Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods all in one, only better. See the theme? Fighter Captains, better Librarians, better Chaplains AND troops better suited to MSU play, the dominant MEQ Mech list-type during 5th. Add in Long Fangs and Thunderwolves and season to taste.

Then there's the wargear: Wolf Claws are Lightning Claws, but better. Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, but better. Even Logan's howl is the old Holy Relic (that no other 5th Edition Codex got to keep) except... better. See the pattern. A lot of stuff is arbitrarily better than the C:SM equivalent, which is stupid.

Regarding BA Sanguinary Priests: Yes, it's fair. It's from a 50-point base 1-wound IC. They PAY for it, something that Space Wolves don't.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Yeah, I derped with the Belt, Saga of the Bear is indeed the one I meant. And really, you choose PE at the start of the game. If it's Green Tide, pick Infantry. If it's Nob bikers, pick Bikes. If it's DoA, pick Jump Infantry. You get to rapid fire and STILL get Counter Attack if someone charges you, PE still works AND you now get Overwatch. Blood Claws are actually priced just about right, it's just that Grey Hunters are so ungodly powerful that they push away the Blood Claws. A 9-man GH squad and a Wolf Guard are still cheaper than a Tac Squad.

But its still only good against 1 thing. What happens when you pick bikers and your guys get charged by stormboys. What happens after you clean the clock out of a tactical squad and find yourself with a dread infront of you. The SW player does his best to point the Wolf priest in the right direction, but a smart opponent can take away the Wolf Priest biggest asset if they bring a diverse army.

Then there's the Runic Weapons. Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods all in one, only better. See the theme? Fighter Captains, better Librarians, better Chaplains AND troops better suited to MSU play, the dominant MEQ Mech list-type during 5th. Add in Long Fangs and Thunderwolves and season to taste.

Blame shoddy FAQ updates. I'm sure that runic weapons will be brought inline with psychic hoods once the next FAQs are released. You also forget your history. SM HQs have always been fighter, and usually more expensive to boot. The old 3rd ed, rune priests were monsters in CC.

Then there's the wargear: Wolf Claws are Lightning Claws, but better. Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, but better. Even Logan's howl is the old Holy Relic (that no other 5th Edition Codex got to keep) except... better. See the pattern. A lot of stuff is arbitrarily better than the C:SM equivalent, which is stupid.

Frost weapons all cost 100% more than any power weapon equivalents. Thats a lot to get +1 Strength. I'll agree on the wolf claw, I don't see why it needed the buff. Logan is a 275 point model, so what if his howl is a bit different, he pays for it.

Regarding BA Sanguinary Priests: Yes, it's fair. It's from a 50-point base 1-wound IC. They PAY for it, something that Space Wolves don't.

Thats funny, I pay 100 points for a bare bones Wolf Priest. One out of 6 BA squads get FC and fearless for free. Every drop BA squad get DOA of which they do not pay for. Doesn't matter if they use it or not, they still get it.

All armies have the buff and puffs for free that gives them edges. BT get to walk closer to the enemy instead of running away. SM always get to play both rolls of the strongest power and then the piss boys. I promise that when the basic C:SM gets rereleased they will be dominant, up until power creep steps up and they slowly start to seem underwelming. Which is crazy because all of the other codexs that have yet to be updates are still being overwhelmed by your supposedly underpowered SM.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

I dont know but... I sort of have the dejavu till I clicked filter in this thread alone ( woot for dakka tools! )
and this came up:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Search the forums and you shall find the answer.

Now can we get a lock on this before the Ward hate club sees it?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

Perhaps its easier to just not view the thread you dislike that much.

As Buddha said " if holding onto hot coals brings you pain, why persist and hold on to it while cursing at the pain? just drop it... "

One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Jayden63 wrote:Thats funny, I pay 100 points for a bare bones Wolf Priest. One out of 6 BA squads get FC and fearless for free. Every drop BA squad get DOA of which they do not pay for. Doesn't matter if they use it or not, they still get it.

All armies have the buff and puffs for free that gives them edges. BT get to walk closer to the enemy instead of running away. SM always get to play both rolls of the strongest power and then the piss boys. I promise that when the basic C:SM gets rereleased they will be dominant, up until power creep steps up and they slowly start to seem underwelming. Which is crazy because all of the other codexs that have yet to be updates are still being overwhelmed by your supposedly underpowered SM.

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW. Runic Weapons were better in 5th as well. You'd have a point if you had to pay to get counter-attack and CCWs on everyone, but you don't. Grey Hunters are just as good at CC as an assault marine squad, the difference being 1/6th of a chance for FC vs. permanent counter-attack. Meanwhile, Grey Hunters are better at shooting.

You get the same as everyone else does if your Chaplain gets charged: nothing. Unless it's your PE, in which case it works. It also persists into subsequent rounds.

Wolf Scouts have outflank, but the plain old outflank appearently wasn't good enough for a unit with access to meltaguns, Meltabombs and power fists.

Black Templars also have to take an Ld test at every casualty and are only Ld8 base. Meanwhile, none of the Space Wolf special rules are potentially a drawback or easily killed off.

Face it, Space Wolves get a significant advantage over C:SM and were, alongside IG and Grey Knights the dominant force in 5th. Blood Angels are by no means bad, they're just not as good.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

They dont get 40 point TH/SS termis. They don't get SM statlines who can fire 3 different types of ammo which can change every shooting phase as needed. They don't get special characters who make already potent weapons twin linked or master crafted. BT and Tau don't have internal access to the new and crazy psychic powers. These guys don't have a BS 5 heavy weapon which come with every devi squad. You don't get to ignore your own strengths just because a newer codex has something stronger.

The best thing that ever happened to my Tau is when C:SM lost the fear the darkness psychic power. However, when your whole army can be obliterated by three drop podding sternguard units, you begin to feel like not much else has changed.

Like I said, it all depends on where your codex is in the release cycle. The newest codexs will always be stronger. And its unfortunate for older codexs that Ward has written released 3 of the last 5. If your not playing a Ward Codex, your fighting an uphill battle if your facing off against someone who is.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

To be fair DA has always been like this, always the test bed for C:SM because Jervis can't write a decent space marine book, he couldn't attempt a gimmick and each time he tried was a failure. (Oh hey, BANNERS!)

Tau however, they had a bad 4th edition book as well, it was essentially a "patch" update, nothing really changed except a few points costs from 3rd, it was an insult to even call it a decent update.

Sisters got cruddanced.

BT..Actually did well for a while at least when they finally hit their FAQ

Chaos is getting an update soon.

gaovinni wrote:One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

Jayden63 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

They dont get 40 point TH/SS termis. They don't get SM statlines who can fire 3 different types of ammo which can change every shooting phase as needed. They don't get special characters who make already potent weapons twin linked or master crafted. BT and Tau don't have internal access to the new and crazy psychic powers. These guys don't have a BS 5 heavy weapon which come with every devi squad. You don't get to ignore your own strengths just because a newer codex has something stronger.

The best thing that ever happened to my Tau is when C:SM lost the fear the darkness psychic power. However, when your whole army can be obliterated by three drop podding sternguard units, you begin to feel like not much else has changed.

Like I said, it all depends on where your codex is in the release cycle. The newest codexs will always be stronger. And its unfortunate for older codexs that Ward has written released 3 of the last 5. If your not playing a Ward Codex, your fighting an uphill battle if your facing off against someone who is.

As a Black Templars player: C:SM aren't a problem, because they have weaknesses. Space Wolves have stellar shooting AND melee prowess. And no, you're not at a disadvantage just because you don't play a Ward army: look at IG and, again, Space Wolves. Hell, even Orks are still alive and very much kicking.

As for the strength comparison: Firstly, I'd argue that Space Wolves don't need cheap TH/SS Terminators anyway. Thunderwolves fill the counter-assault role without having to rely on a Land Raider. Secondly, they indeed don't get a Signum: they get an additional heavy weapon and split fire as well as greater resistance to charges (3 attacks instead of one when charged...). Thirdly, you're right, they don't get Sternguard. Good job. Fourthly, Logan certainly brings benefits to the army beyond his excellent use as beatstick. Vulkan was undercosted in 5th though.

Space Wolves helped define the 5th ed metagame and was easily the most powerful Codex up to the release of the Grey Knights Codex, which I'd argue was slightly more powerful, but not massively so.

To sum it up: You don't get to ignore your strengths just because newer Codices ("Ward Codices") get some better stuff than you.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

Assuming no psycannons, they kill just as many MEQ or TEQ when charged as Grey Hunters, but cost 5 points more. Just saying.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As a Black Templars player: C:SM aren't a problem, because they have weaknesses. Space Wolves have stellar shooting AND melee prowess. And no, you're not at a disadvantage just because you don't play a Ward army: look at IG and, again, Space Wolves. Hell, even Orks are still alive and very much kicking.

Orks are only alive if and only if you run one of two builds. A well played SM army can do a number on them.

As for the strength comparison: Firstly, I'd argue that Space Wolves don't need cheap TH/SS Terminators anyway. Thunderwolves fill the counter-assault role without having to rely on a Land Raider.

And with TWC at 50 points each, before upgrades, they had better do a good job. However, BA do get cheap TH/SS and can get fearless/FNP ontop of that (granted at 5 more points per model than C:SM). Infact there are only two units in all of C:SM that C:BA doesn't have. And all of those got upgraded in some way. Its like Ward took his old work and just slapped a +2 bandage on the whole damn thing. Space Wolves don't actually play like traditional SM armies, so naturally they should/do have different units that do indeed have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Secondly, they indeed don't get a Signum: they get an additional heavy weapon and split fire as well as greater resistance to charges (3 attacks instead of one when charged...).

And what happens when a LF unit takes a wound, let alone two. You either loose split fire, or you loose a heavy weapon. LF firepower drops fast compaired to devi firepower. I'm will to completely conceed that the weapons should be more expensive. However, nothing quite like firing a BS 5 plasma cannon. That 1" of reduced scatter is easily the difference between getting that third hit or not.

Also LFs are stuck with 1 attack if they get charged unless they pass an LD check, and even in which case the unit is only 6 models - less if they have taken any previous casulties. Thus they don't really have much of a counter punch if charged. The unit just doesn't have the numbers. Add to it while in CC, the entire unit stops firing, thats 1-5 guns no doing anything. while a combat squaded devi squad still should have two heavy weapons sending shots down field if one half of their unit gets charged.

Space Wolves helped define the 5th ed metagame and was easily the most powerful Codex up to the release of the Grey Knights Codex, which I'd argue was slightly more powerful, but not massively so.

To sum it up: You don't get to ignore your strengths just because newer Codices ("Ward Codices") get some better stuff than you.

I have never said that SW were not better than C:SM. Yes long fangs, rune priests, and grey hunters can be spammed, and people do spam them. I don't, but others do. But complaining that C:SW is more powerful than C:SM is kind of pointless because they have to be more powerful simply because they are a newer codex than C:SM and Games Workshop will never let a newly released SM codex be on the bottom rung. Its just not in the business plan. I personally feel the IG is above SW and BA, but below GK and Necrons. Granted ones personal gaming area defines who or what is king. Your personal experiences probably greatly vary from mine.

But sadly like I said above looking at what should universally be considered the top 5 codex regardless of anyones personal order - Necrons, GK, SW, BA, and IG, three of the five are Ward codexs.

Which is kind of the point of this entire topic. You can find any number of SW hate threads just by looking back a page or two.

LunaHound wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

I dont know but... I sort of have the dejavu till I clicked filter in this thread alone ( woot for dakka tools! )
and this came up:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Search the forums and you shall find the answer.

Now can we get a lock on this before the Ward hate club sees it?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

Perhaps its easier to just not view the thread you dislike that much.

As Buddha said " if holding onto hot coals brings you pain, why persist and hold on to it while cursing at the pain? just drop it... "

Maybe because this is the same kind of pointless flamebaiting that used to get locked last year...

Assuming you don't count the SoB "Codex", Ward wrote 50% of the 5th edition Codices. Of course he'll have more of his work up there. I'd personally also argue that Dark Eldar were up there before 6th face-smashed them.

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

To be fair, a lot of people, myself included, have as much issue with the SW fluff as with anything Ward put out, SW's just seem to be an isolated case with Kelly. IG really only have a couple derpy fluff pieces (Marbo and Chenkov), and most of the "feats" they accomplish aren't *too* out there (e.g. an experienced deathworlder killing a Lictor, or killing an Eldar Autarch with Heavy Bolter fire), they're at least believable that it could happen a couple times in an army of trillions, and not dudes walking out with no armor and defeating Greater Daemons as a matter of routine initiation into upper ranks

If Cruddace had something like Guardsmen characters slaying Khornate Berzerkers in hand to hand combat or a single guard regiment wiping out an Ork Waaagh, you'd probably see the same disdain, and the more incredible feats are couched when presented (e.g. "reports of....")

Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers. That's fine and it's part of the reason why all started playing.
Black Library is where to go for fluff 4 grown upz.
The reason Matt Ward is unpopular is because he wrote the most recent codexes, which have all suffered from power creep.

A marine army that is essentially a more powerful space marine army for no apparent reason.

GK. Enough has been said about them.

The necron codex. Or alternatively, how to ruin 6th edition 40k.

Further codexes will stamp on these, probably hitting necron harder since they're most reliant on the ruleset.

Sorry, I just saw the words Matt Ward and already feel RAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!

Matt Ward is the only guy who could write a codex and think that its ok to potentially make the other guys army attack itself 26 times in a single game.

And that leads me to the idea that possibly one of the main reasons why there is so much Ward hate is that for the most part they are unfun to play against if the right units are brought.

Nobody like that their (incert point cost here) killy hero suddenly attacks his own unit.

Nobody likes that their HQ looses 50ish points worth of stats just because Dante is on the other side of the table.

Nobody likes that after 2.5 hours of fighting (win or loose) only 10 grey knight models were removed from the table

Nobody likes that one dreadnaught can slaughter an entire ork mob in a single turn.

Nobody likes it when they loose 1/6 of their entire army every turn they decide to move. (I personally think that writhing world scape is the sole reason that in 6th ed you now get armor saves vs. Dangerous Terrain checks.)

When these things happen, it just makes the other guy really begin to wonder why they bothered to show up in the first place. It removes all sense that the fight might be fair.


I realize that there are things in all codexs that can create rediculiously one sided match ups. But the idea that most Ward codexs bring one or two of those such things to all fights regardless of the opponent might just rub people the wrong way.

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

Crimson wrote:

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

Kaldor wrote:
That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

This is not an issue with the lack of space, it is an issue with lack of talent. A good writer can manage to tell much with few words and a half decent one can atleast manage not to make the reader cringe. Quality of writing in GW codices certainly varies, and none are high literature, but if you cannot see how Ward's writing is way worse than average, I don't know what to say to you. Before I read Draigo fluff, I had just seen it reviled in the internet, but assumed it to be usual internet hyperbole. And then I read it. Frankly I cannot comprehend how GW ever allowed such an inane piece of drivel to be published. If you don't see it, then you don't. In the end it is a matter of taste, but I'd have to conclude that you have a horrible taste.

Kaldor wrote:

Crimson wrote:

Testify wrote:Codexes aren't written for adults, they're written for teenagers.

Written for teenagers, perhaps; but not written by teenagers. Really, Ward's fluff is something a twelve year old might write. And I don't think that this even is a good way to appeal to kids. Kids sense a bad and bland storytelling too, even if they might not be able to analyse it. There is no nuances in Ward's fluff, nothing to get, nothing that make one wonder and think about the setting. It is just loud and still bland.

That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

Again however, others manage to somehow write fluff that doesn't piss a large chunk of the community off on a consistent basis within the same space, often less. Draigo is one of the most reviled fluff pieces in 40k fluff and he got twice the page space of almost every other character out there.

Ward hate didn't materialize out of nowhere, there's a reason for it.

Twiqbal wrote:

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

that was indeed a hilarious video, gold medal is awarded in youtube videos!!!

Crimson wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
That's no different to any other codex. Why single Ward out? There's just no room in a codex for nuance.

This is not an issue with the lack of space, it is an issue with lack of talent. A good writer can manage to tell much with few words and a half decent one can atleast manage not to make the reader cringe. Quality of writing in GW codices certainly varies, and none are high literature, but if you cannot see how Ward's writing is way worse than average, I don't know what to say to you. Before I read Draigo fluff, I had just seen it reviled in the internet, but assumed it to be usual internet hyperbole. And then I read it. Frankly I cannot comprehend how GW ever allowed such an inane piece of drivel to be published. If you don't see it, then you don't. In the end it is a matter of taste, but I'd have to conclude that you have a horrible taste.

The character is a little flat, but no more so than any other character in 40K. I don't get the hype.

I mean, it's one thing to say his writing is worse than average, but how can you really determine that? What is the average, and what examples from Ward fall below it? What makes Draigo worse than any other character ever written? What (apart from Draigo) makes the GK background worse than, say, the IG or Space Wolves? Or the Dark Angels? Or anyone else?

Twiqbal wrote:
"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

"No one snorts warp dust but Heretics... and maybe Matt Ward..."

Twiqbal wrote:

GhostKnight31 wrote:I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc

(possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

"No...no....please just f****ing kill me!"

I normally think most 40K humor is awful, but that was genuinely hilarious.

If you though that was funny check out the space Hulk one
I believe they should make this video part of the official fluff I mean its actually believable compared to some of Matt Wards fluff (Draigo can't beat up Mortarion that is just unfair) as it portrays Draigo how he should of been a mighty warrior who is completely high and insane due to using too much Warp Dust ("I like your Horn") also I believe all Grey Knights should have funny British accents.

Since we are on the topic of the Grey Knights in that hilarious video at about 6:49 onwards how the Grey Knight with the cool accent says if they trap the final Bloodletter (with an epic accent ) in a tesseract labyrinth if they did it in the actual 40k universe would that mean Draigo could stay in the material world with out having to go back to the warp (unless he need some more warp dust of course) to lead the Grey Knights into a new age of blind faith and unreasonable HATRED

Yeah

Hatred

Huzzah

finally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4tmNhtf8ks&feature=relmfu

I do like their animation where they let everyone know that Games Workshop did not, in fact, have them all killed.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

gaovinni wrote:One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Well, the anointing Sororitas Blood because they were not pure enough already to fight daemons was a bit eyebrow raising...

I dislike Matt Ward because his writing is subpar and 40k's rather unique (it stole from so many different things and ended up a bizarre fusion of Dune, Starship Troopers, Elric of Melnibone and a hundred other sources) setting is the only thing that separates it from hundreds of other strategy games, many quite better rule wise than 40k.

And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

"Bug?" Most of us loathe Draigo. A guy who gets sucked into the warp (you know, where immortal beings live and he's a lone mortal against an infinite number of them), carves his predecessor's name into a Daemon PRIMARCH'S chest, then burns down a GOD'S garden and sacks a bunch of other stuff. It's the most unbelievable crap ever written in Warhammer. No matter how much you defend your namesake, he will always be a pile of fetid garbage that should have been aborted from Mat Ward's twisted male-uterus. Also, I like Codex: Necrons, dirty as it is. I think he did a good job with that one. But he needs to face severe punishment for Draigo's fluff. I have no problem with the model/rules in game, but his fluff is a true eye-raper.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

Well, the anointing Sororitas Blood because they were not pure enough already to fight daemons was a bit eyebrow raising...

lol, yes. The Bloodtide and Draigo are the only things I ever hear people complain about. And honestly, most of the people complaining about them don't seem to really know what they're on about, just jumping on the bandwagon rather than actually reading it.

LoneLictor wrote:And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Well... I don't know.

More importantly, (draigo and bloodtide aside) would he be any less readable than any of the other codex writers?

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.

"Bug?" Most of us loathe Draigo. A guy who gets sucked into the warp (you know, where immortal beings live and he's a lone mortal against an infinite number of them), carves his predecessor's name into a Daemon PRIMARCH'S chest, then burns down a GOD'S garden and sacks a bunch of other stuff. It's the most unbelievable crap ever written in Warhammer. No matter how much you defend your namesake, he will always be a pile of fetid garbage that should have been aborted from Mat Ward's twisted male-uterus. Also, I like Codex: Necrons, dirty as it is. I think he did a good job with that one. But he needs to face severe punishment for Draigo's fluff. I have no problem with the model/rules in game, but his fluff is a true eye-raper.

Hyperbole much?

What were you expecting from him? I have no problem with any of his achievements. To be honest, how could he even exist in the warp if it wasn't at the will of the Chaos Gods? He's obviously there because that's where they want him to be. I like the imagery of a guy, totally alone in an alien plane with nothing to do but wander around kicking ass. It's kind of like a 40K version of Kung Fu.

My main complaint about him is that, apart from him kicking ass, we know nothing about him. He's quite flat. But then, every 40K character is.

In any event, he's certainly not as cringe-worthy as Sly Marbo.

I simply don't understand why, despite the beginning of the GK codex explaining that they use obscure sorceries, people take everything after that literally.

Dan Abnett said it best - "blades and flames seemed to have more effect on the foul creatures hbolt and bullet" (I'm paraphrasing ) We are dealing with creatures made purely out of emotion.

When Draigo "carved his predecessors name on the heart of the Daemon Primarch", surely it just means he matched him to the point of Mortarion taking notice and remembering him? The Bloodtide may indeed have been totally unnecessary - wouldn't that fit more with the grim-dark setting?

Don't take everything written in a book about sorcery literally. The interpretation is more important than what is being said.

Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH. Way to build up one of the primary villains of the universe. And the same goes on. Apparently, very powerful Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters aren't more than a snack to Draigo. Those are supposed to be some of the most powerful monsters imaginable you could meet in the game, and this guy beats them up like nothing. It reminds me of "Dick Marvil" from ab3's Binder of Shame.

There is other stuff, things like Titan being hidden in the Warp so time could pass faster...ok...whatever. If it's that easy, why they don't use it all the time for their advantage?

By contrast, as I said earlier, I don't hate Bloodtide incident. In fact, it's one of the better passages of the book and makes perfect sense as far as I am concerned. It perfectly embodies ruthlessness of the Grey Knights, and double standards which are evident within the Imperium everywhere.

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

I hate the reason given for it.

"We need to strengthen our Aegis"

"Ok, we'll drop a dreadnought down"

"Nah, we'll just slaughter all these incredibly faithful sisters"

It's not even the Mortarion bit I hate. It's that he's burned down Nurgle's entire garden of decay and destroyed Tzeentch's Eternal City SEVERAL TIMES OVER.

The gods are just letting him run around in their backyards and are doing nothing to stop him? There's supposed to be some kind of curse keeping him in the warp for eternity, and that's supposed to be tragic, but I'd only see it that way if his efforts were futile and useless, like he was trapped in an illusory bubble where he THOUGHT he was killing greater daemons but was in fact just trapped in his own head.

There's a story of some ork warband that much better fits the idea that "hey this guy's a badass" while also staying tragic. A warboss, looking for better and better fights, accidentally lands on a khorne daemonworld. At first nothing happens, then a bunch of khorne daemons rise up and kill every ork. So much blood was shed, though, that every day at sunrise Khorne resurrects the entire warband to spend the day fighting and killing. They all die again every day, and are resurrected every day to fight again.

Basically, they're never going anywhere. It will never again be a system-looting Waaaagh, he will never rise to power over a massive ork warband beyond what he landed with. He is doing the same fight for eternity and that's tragic, but the reason it's happening is because he's THAT cool.

Draigo, on the other hand, comes out, kills whatever he wants, goes back to the warp and kills whatever he wants, and back and forth. He never gets tired, never needs to eat or drink or sleep, never needs his armor maintained or his wounds tended to. In the story, at least, he's completely and totally invincible. The implication is not only that he bests all his opponents, it's that he's not even HURT by them, EVER, and the gods are powerless to stop him. That's not a tragic ending by any means. That's why the character is seen as flawless, and that's one of several reasons why he's hated.

I don't hate Matt Ward. He makes things to be fun for the people that use them. I do hate the grey knight codex. It's broken and over the top and they don't pay for most of their abilities. Compare a strike to a noisemarine with a sonic blaster, or hell compare it to a regular marine. 5 points buys them a stormbolter upgrade on the standard bolter, anti-psychic grenades, anti-psychic leadership nerfing, a bonus +1 on deny the witch rolls, an anti-deepstrike psychic power, a FORCE WEAPON, preferred enemy: daemons [which covers far more than what's in the daemon codex], and a +1 strength in hth psychic power. That's all what, 1 point each, with a few still being free after that?

The old grey knights basically said "Hey, rather than pay a bunch of extra points for these things that are only useful against certain enemies, we lowered the points and will allow daemons to have endless troops against them". The new ones pay even LESS and daemonic units have no recourse against them. How have they maintained balance?

Simply put: They haven't. The codex inherently solves its own "low model count" problem by introducing Coteaz and allowing 12 point troop choices that can take space marine vehicles to cart them around and by having upgrades cost so little that a full squad of grey knights with little spent on upgrades is way way WAY above the same units in other codexes that pay a ton extra. A tactical squad that buys the heavy and assault weapons and the close combat weapon for their sergeant necessary to compete will come out at about the same points cost as 10 strikes with 2 psycannons and still be out-shot, and completely out-classed in hth as well.

THAT is imbalance.

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

We have no way of knowing, but it's pure conjecture. The story however gives no indication that this is the case, or that it was even at the same battle. It simply says " X died, then Draigo went off and did this ridiculous thing". There was plenty of room to elaborate on that if desired, Draigo got twice as much page space as Dante, Mephiston, Calgar, Ragnar, Abaddon, Typhus, or Logan Grimnar did.

^What Vaktathi said. At least with Calgar defeating the Avatar, it was already estabilished that Avatar had to fight TH/SS Terminators immediately beforehand, Calgar surprised the Avatar and even then, he was nearly killed by it.

You gotta have scary villains to have heroes. Sauron is a great villain, and did you see Aragon ride up in the Barad-Dur and beat him up? No, you didn't. (Ok, Elendil did that...but he had friends). When Ward writes, villains are just fodder to the good guys.

Please don't post things like this on Dakka.
Reds8n

Kaldor, I just want to... confirm something.

You aren't trying to pull off an Inception right? like your dakka account is the Mary Sue character created by Kaldor Draigo in the codex which is the Mary Sue created from Matt Ward?

Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

So the Daemon Primarch suddenly met the previous grey knight supreme grandmaster off somewhere alone, except draigo was there, and some daemons too..

Yeah, it says there was an army for the daemons there. Logical thinking is there was a Gk army there too.

"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

No such force is mentioned, that's true. But I've made certain assumptions about the things that weren't mentioned. They were wearing armour. The fight was on a planet, in a rural area, during daylight. It was a major incursion, being met with a significant force of Grey Knights (hence the presence of a Primarch and the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights). Mortarion had taken a beating.

That's how I read all codex background material. Filling in the gaps with my own imagination. Doesn't everyone?

I don't think I've filled in any gaps with incongruous information, or in a way that clashes with established background.

LunaHound wrote:Kaldor, I just want to... confirm something.

You aren't trying to pull off an Inception right? like your dakka account is the Mary Sue character created by Kaldor Draigo in the codex which is the Mary Sue created from Matt Ward?

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

But the battle with Angron was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons. It was exactly the same thing, except Angron's bodyguard isn't two Marines, but 12 Bloodthirsters. And Angron is a badder dude than Mortarion.

To recap my earlier post in a more acceptable manner. Isn't Draigo actually in hell? He can't really change anything in the warp, it's eternal and immortal. He can burn Papa Nurgle's garden a million times but it will still be there as soon as he turns his back. A martial version of the Midas touch almost, Kaldor Draigo can grasp/achieve incredible victories as many times as he wants, but they're all hollow, meaningless within the warp. Reminds me of the punishment in Tartarous for gluttons, eternal hunger and thirst, with food and water just barely out of your reach.

Now for those who do have issue with Draigo, if his fluff is cast in this light, as a tragedy, does it become more palatable to you? To Draigo supporters, what would your take on this interpretation of the fluff be?

To be clear I like most GK fluff and am neutral on Draigo, the Bloodtide really irks me though, as indicated earlier in the thread.

Kaldor wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

But the battle with Angron was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons. It was exactly the same thing, except Angron's bodyguard isn't two Marines, but 12 Bloodthirsters. And Angron is a badder dude than Mortarion.

This. Draigo was field-promoted to Supreme Grand Master, which means the other Grand Masters were there as well. Such a force by far eclipses the one at Armageddon, and people STILL whine about Mortarion getting kicked out. The only time Draigo is doing something that actually matters is in real-space.

And I seem to remember some dude named Lysander and his prison break, coming back 100% pure and all that, yet that's totally fine fluff. Asdrubael Vect is the smartest guy ever, totally!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

They did. The first Armageddon war was expanded upon in great detail in White Dwarf.

Kaldor, after skim reading this thread, I think this pic probably sums up your role in the thread..



To be honest, I think it's a mistake trying to defend much of logic behind some of the background in the codecies, because each one of them is trying to sell you that army as being 'the best thing ever'. And like you point out, not just the GK one, but also the IG (with its play on Rambo), Space Wolf and even the Space Marine codex for that matter are also home to OTT, mythical-legend style background elements.

It is obviously meant to be overblown, and not really an actual 'serious' reflection of the background (if such a thing is possible?), and you would argue that the BL books are the better avenue for a more solid and tangible realisation of the 40k universe.

How long was it Marneus Calgar held up the orcs at the pass for? A night and a day? Looking at this thread actually I'm amazed there hasn't been an argument over whether that constituted 12 or 24 hours, with serious discussions about the width of the pass in metres.

Although, I am personally looking forward to how the next Chaos Codex can trump Draigo's exploits. Perhaps some kind of new chaos marine character going backwards in time and killing the Emperor when he was a child (although.. what if the Imperium could send someone back as well.. as a guardian for him?).. It's all just a bit of fun, and obviously not meant to be taken as an actual recording of events of the kind you would find in a Forge World book, Black Library novel or similar.

Its not exactly helping the point of using c:sm material to defend bad writing. After all, it too is a Matt Ward codex. His fanboyish approach is found in all of his writing. Calgar and Lysander included.

Another one that causes a great need for face palming IMO is the Sanguinor fluff. His "Here I come to save the day!" approach is just laughable the way its handled.

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

Grimtuff wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

They did. The first Armageddon war was expanded upon in great detail in White Dwarf.

Not that one, the fight that led to the death of the previous Supreme Grandmaster.

I know how the Angron battle goes, and it was indeed awesome.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle.

He brought a gate down on the head of a Lord of Change, that is not the destruction of the Inevitable City by a longshot.

And he set it aflame, it never said he destroyed the whole thing, just a part of it. Besides nurgle would enjoy it, the rot and burning ashes brings about decay and slow death, and later on being able to be reused.

Could people actually read it for once? I know he does some really impossible things, but at least get your accusations about the fluff right. Sure it still is written badly (Show, don't tell!), but parts that people parrot is simply from those annoying folk at /TG/ without ever checking the validity of.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

And all of his exploits were unmade. Why do people always ignore the part where it's completely pointless?

Kaldor wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

They should have remained as part of a Daemonhunters Codex.

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

You have a habit of asking questions that you already know the answers to.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

They should have remained as part of a Daemonhunters Codex.

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

You have a habit of asking questions that you already know the answers to.

Then I'll ask: what's your problem with the Grey Knights background?

I don't really enjoy the part on purifiers. If no GK has ever fallen, and they are all ultra pure, why do they need an additional organization devoted to being uncorruptable? It seems silly to have a force of perfect, holy knights, but then sone of them are way purer(?) than others? How can you be more pure than people that have never succumbed to any kind of temptation? And their leader is even more incorruptible? The book spends a lot of time saying that grey knights are totally without flaw. But it then goes on to give countless examples where they aren't without flaw, and how some are even more without flaw than others. If no grey knight has ever fallen, then how do they know that only Crowe can wield the blade of antwyr if they haven't had anyone corrupted by it? Why is Crowe so amazing, and the blade so evil if every single brotherhood champion of the purifiers has handled it without issues?

And the paladin's initiation doesn't make much sense either. So, no grey knight has ever fallen, but the first two tasks of the paladin are to prove just how driven and incorruptible he is, then has every grey knight attempting to become a paladin passed these tests? Why are the haunted tomes beneath mount anarch and the unsleeping evil of the dread tomb abbiallach so terrible, if they haven't managed to corrupt any grey knights yet? There is a lot of pointless names being thrown around as well. Why are those caverns below mt. Anarch so evil? What's going on that makes it make people lose their purpose? Why the hell should I care? The ornate, grandiose naming means nothing to me if you don't explain anything. It then goes on to tell me that there are 4 more super-hard-ultra-evil-death-dealing quests to go on, but I'm not gunna tell you what they are. What? If you aren't going to talk about them, why even have them? Why not just have 4 quests, and talk about all of them, rather than saying there are 8, but then that your not going to tell me about half of them because you couldn't think up 4 more ridiculous, OTT quests with pointless, crazy names of terrible locations wih no explanation.

Then, why does Draigo make paladins troops? Ok, yeah, he's the supreme grandmaster who has that authority, but he only shows up on special occasions to help out. So how does he organize all the paladins to come with him if he's suppose to just appear mid-battle? Does he show up beforehand to gather them up and take them into battle? Or do the grandmasters just take a gakload of paladins and hope he shows up to direct them? Do groups of paladins in large numbers attract Draigo from the warp like a light attracts a fly?

EDIT: breaking up wall of text.
EDIT: typos.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

And all of his exploits were unmade. Why do people always ignore the part where it's completely pointless?

Probably because it was slotted in at the end with the same enthusiasm as 'but then he woke up and it was all a dream'. The fact that the gods can repair the damage Draigo does doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have to considering they could summon an infinite number of daemons to attack him from more directions than his mind could comprehend if they felt like it. He's in a realm that the mortal mind has repeatedly been said to be unable to comprehend, where time and space are meaningless outside of the shields that people create when they enter it. Even supposing that he was strong enough to hold a shield that forced daemons to take physical form to attack him, numbers alone should see him ripped apart. He's still a mortal, and his stamina is not infinite, he would eventually collapse from exhaustion and be ripped apart, get stabbed in the back and get ripped apart or make a mistake and get ripped apart.

Kaldor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Well... I don't know.

More importantly, (draigo and bloodtide aside) would he be any less readable than any of the other codex writers?

The very first 40k books were actually so well written that they managed to convince people to buy ludicrously overpriced models they'd never heard of before and assorted modeling supplies.

To be fair, 40k originally wasn't that expensive of a game, you could get 20 orks for $10 and that'd be about all you needed for a game.