... found this on the Millenium Gate forum.  No idea where they got it from:

 

Very 2ed. It is like 40k is going backwards 2ed minis 2 ed overpowers.

I abhor feathers.
The head dreass isnt bad at all. I kinda like it, but the feathers are too reminiscent of  "Chief Wannahokaloogi" to me.

Not so hot on how GW likes to employ aesthetics of every single known terran race for their armies.

I am glad I am not using DA models. So much for the monastic look.

Was it the chicken experience, Patrick?

Wow. I have the old version of the guy on the right somewhere. Was going to make him into a statue.

How do you fit in a rhino with those things, anyway?

Oy, Dark Angels. You really are the Village People of 40k, aren't you?

Brother Melchidael: Damnation! My crotch is chafed like Horus's soul!

Brother Barabbas: Hast thou been applying the unguent Apothacarion Jay prescribed?

Brother Melchidael: Aye, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Brother Barrabas: You think you have it bad, I keep tripping on my purity seals!

War-Walker pilot Therathanlui'Athariel'Eldaron: (translated from the Eldar)Was Goodwin busy? No matter, these two poorly-sculpted mon-keigh will fall beneath my hooves! Khaine's rage is ejaculated upon my soul!!

Whatever, these guys are AWESOME. They''re not crying to the heavens and the sculpting is crisp and clean. I want one of each and I don't even play Dark Angels.

If this is the direction the Marine sculpts will be going, I'm all for it.

And besides, for all you haters if GW released miniatures in blister packs held by super fit surfer girls who could suck a golf ball down a hose you'd still say it should have come with two... so I suppsed it will be the wallets that vote actual data on whether these are nice sculpts or not.

PAX

No, they are nice sculpts. I just really abhor the feathered injun look.

Not my cup of tea.

Sadly, the feathers are incorporated so deeply in those two sculpts, its not a simple matter of clipping them off and a little filing. That job is going to be tougher than should be to remove the offnsive avian parts.

because of that, its a "no" buy.

Where are you getting injun? They have feathers on them. Blood Angels have blood drops on them and Space Wolves and teeth and claws. Are they wearing assless buckskin chaps or am I missing that? I see no warpaint. I see one feathered helmet and two sets of feathers hanging from weapons (one on each).

That does not chief sitting bull make.

You're entitled to your opinion dude, but calling these guys YMCA line members is a stretch in the sourpatch.

Um, the Village People reference probably comes from the fact that they
are a mish mosh of ideas, and their dirty secret, if I know how the Rabbi
thinks.

The feathers are really the least of their shortcomings. The pose is just too static for me. Very reminiscent of the 2nd ed "flat" sculpts, as Joe said.

Would you rather they were waving their weapons and screaming to something slightly elevated to the left?

I'll keep demure.

Some people like active poses. /shrug

But then you're right. We make fun of those, too.

To each his own, I guess.

They're pretty interesting, and well executed, but I don't really dig the cloak swung over his shoulder- it just doesn't look if he could be very active with a huge cloak balanced on one shoulder :p

Posted By malfred on 11/19/2006 5:03 PM
Um, the Village People reference probably comes from the fact that they
are a mish mosh of ideas, and their dirty secret, if I know how the Rabbi
thinks.

Ahh, to know how the good Rabbi thinks, I have known him personally for lo these many years and still his inner workings are a void to me.

But his wife is hot

Posted By Achilles on 11/19/2006 5:01 PM
Where are you getting injun? They have feathers on them. Blood Angels have blood drops on them and Space Wolves and teeth and claws. Are they wearing assless buckskin chaps or am I missing that? I see no warpaint. I see one feathered helmet and two sets of feathers hanging from weapons (one on each).

That does not chief sitting bull make.

You're entitled to your opinion dude, but calling these guys YMCA line members is a stretch in the sourpatch.

Whatever. As I said thrice, The feathers are so lame, I wouldnt even model them on your figs.

Just because I dont like the feather look doesnt mean the models suck

So does blood drops on blood angels make them vampires, or wolves stuff on space wolves make them lycanthropes?

Why yes. It does in fact make them vampires and lycanthropes, respectively. GW has basically done everything but outright admitting that it is infact the case. Your examples arent really helping your argument.


Take a chill pill and bask in your Hiawatha figs.

Posted By Whitescar on 11/19/2006 5:46 PM

Posted By malfred on 11/19/2006 5:03 PM
Um, the Village People reference probably comes from the fact that they
are a mish mosh of ideas, and their dirty secret, if I know how the Rabbi
thinks.

Ahh, to know how the good Rabbi thinks, I have known him personally for lo these many years and still his inner workings are a void to me.

But his wife is hot

Shhh thats a secret. Now all the chillins are going to be gawking at Yair's bit o' fluff.

Posted By malfred on 11/19/2006 4:37 PM
Was it the chicken experience, Patrick?

The chickens are restless when the children are screaming....

If you just said the feathers were because they were angels would it make you happier?

They are sort of universal symbols, without more stuff they don't really look too native american.

Oh I uderstand that they are historically a part of dark angel gear. I dont begrudge them that.

Feathers are just lame in my not-so-very-humble-opinion. I may as well have a army that is made up of hot feather dancers if I wanted feathers poking out of them.

I am not the only one who dislikes the feathered intrigue of the mysterious dark angels of conundrums. It would be nice if the feathers were optional though. make them quite a bit more likely to sell to a wider audience.

they are native Injun feathers as the original deathwing story shows. for us older players (damn it feels weird saying that) who remeber 2nd edition and the deathwing story the feathers will forever reming us of injuns. Cloud runner, two heads talking, weasel feirce and lame bear/

I have to say I'm with the camp that is not overly impressed with these figures.  They look very much like a converted 2nd edition model.  Like someone else said, however, to each his own..

LIG

They look like conversions. The one to the right is definately the old one with new stuff added.

oh yeah the models are ok if you like dress wearing fairies,
For Russ.

Posted By carmachu
They look like conversions. The one to the right is definately the old one with new stuff added.

Nope, it's not the old model. It's a resculpt using the same ideas, but comparing the two, there's quite a lot of minor differences.

Posted By Drake Marcus
but I don't really dig the cloak swung over his shoulder- it just doesn't look if he could be very active with a huge cloak balanced on one shoulder

I suspect that's a deliberate attempt to emphasise what the Dark Angels are all about... The commanders standing around in more contemplative poses seems to suggest more of a restrained, deliberate approach to battle. I expect that when they get to Blood Angels, we'll see plenty of characters running full-pelt and screaming their heads off...

Are you referring to the miniatures or my balls? This is getting confusing. If it's my balls... please don't talk about them on the internet. I save that stuff for the phone.



I'm making an argument? And here I thought I was successfully provoking one...




Again with my balls...

Ok you got me. That was funny as hell.

Given my nostagia for old models, I love the redone Captain. Lovley model.

BYE

Personally I think these are a step in the right direction.

2 ed minis were great minis for the time and that for me was an era where 40k was really at its zenith stylistically and background wise.

The new eldar stuff is a great example of this. Stepping back to this period of having thicker codexes, and minatures with real character (and expressed now in a more advanced and technologically satisfying way than the early 90's) is a good thing and I'm all for it.

For me Dark Angels have always had this tribal feel with feathers, and it mixes well with the robed look. Deathwing being a perfect example. I disagree with the point that deathwing were only made indian because of that one short story. Its been heavily ingrained into DA background and character for along time, and I think its what makes Dark Angels different and what they are. It works better than some other chapters. For me Black Templars are more monks in space. I think what we all forget is that to a certain degree all space marines regardless of chapter are space faring warrior monks. They are after all the holy warriors made from the blessed gene seed of the "God" emperor of mankind.

Also Hellfury you can easily remove these feathers if you truly dislike them. Snip off the ones on the combi plasma and file down the other one on the crest helmeted marine. Imagination, good modeling skill, and a tiny bit of green stuff will easily remove that.

I think that we have to agree that these are a million times better that the awful tyranid hunter Ultramarines. And better than Calgars Honour Guard and the Black Templar Sword Brethern.

I say give them a chance, and I like the long robes and the opportunities they give the painter (for example embelms as can be seen in these pics).

 

 

just a brief note to confirm that those are new sculpts, and where presented yesterday in Games Day Spain (Barcelona)

I couldn't attend the show (600 km from Madrid to Barcelona) but my brother did go, and he told that those were the only Dark Angel new codex minis presented in the show... but the new codex was confirmed for march 07

First we get the old Hive Tyrant back, then we get official Harlequins, and now we have the old school DA models.

This doesn't bode well for Tau and Dark Eldar. If the trend for re-hashing 2nd Edition continues, they may well be eliminated as armies.

*remembers last time Tau used FoF against my cultists*

Good ridance!

Indeed.

And for once, I'd like to see a pose that didn't involve overheating the plasma gun into the sky, nor digging a post-hole with a sword...They are not the worst static poses ever, but they're clearly trying as hard as they can.

I do like the fact that they're clearly giving us options. You like the bathrobes of 3rd ed.? The fellow on the left is your man. Do you miss the Dark Angels feathery goodness? Aisle forms to the right, young brave.

Let's hope the rank & file are better and more dynamic.

these are captain models so you cant really compare them to the Nid hunters who I personally thought were cool models, the swod brethren were rubbish.

I like them. Sure they are static pose, but they are the taciturn DA captians overseeing the battle. DA's were the first army I ever started and never finished.

What's wrong with the Sword Brethren?

Anyway, I don't feel that strongly about those models...taking a battle seriously is not the same as being bored as hell by it.
The sculpts themselves are nice, though.

Greets
Schepp himself

A few of the sword brethern are nice at first glance but suffer from bad moulding/casting at closer inspection. Also the one with the twin lightning claw is pretty nasty.

as is the bald guy without the beard... urgh

The dude with the goatee and the helmeted marine with the sword aren't bad though.

Well lets look at the brightside.......

1. The feathers are not as big as the ones on the new Empire soldiers
2. If you need to hang up your bathrobe just throw it over their shoulder (those robes are HUGE)
3. They are better than the 2nd edition ones

Hahaha

 

True!

Those empire feathers are dreadful!!!

Posted By beef on 11/19/2006 6:17 PM
they are native Injun feathers as the original deathwing story shows. for us older players (damn it feels weird saying that) who remeber 2nd edition and the deathwing story the feathers will forever reming us of injuns. Cloud runner, two heads talking, weasel feirce and lame bear/

yeah how could you forget me.. dammit.!!   the original premise of the deathwing was based off native american indian themology, the dark angels themselves were usually denoted as warrior monks and seemed to have more of a roman look with the roman crests and adopted the feathers into it..

either way, I like them. I wish they had more native american appeal, but with political correctness and all that crap. I doubt it will ever happen..

It's been awhile since I looked at my Space Hulk books, but before the Deathwing supplement came out, the Dark Angels were just Space Marines in black armor. 

The introduction of Native American elements in Deathwing didn't necessarily mean that the whole chapter wore buckskin and feathers. The Dark Angels drew their recruits from all over the place, so maybe those particular marines featured in Deathwing were drawn from a people who were culturally similar to Native Americans, while the chapter as a whole was monastic in nature. At least that's how I always reconciled the robed monk / Native American dichotomy of the Dark Angels.

The feathers could either be an honorary or aesthetic device referencing their chapter icon (just like the sword pendants they wear), or a tribute to chapter heroes like Cloud Runner and Lame Bear.

Posted By Elusive71 on 11/20/2006 9:41 AM

The Dark Angels drew their recruits from all over the place, so maybe those particular marines featured in Deathwing were drawn from a people who were culturally similar to Native Americans, while the chapter as a whole was monastic in nature.

That was one of the problems with the Deathwing story... Despite the Dark Angels drawing their recruits from numerous planets, their entire 1st Company is apparently all from the same one...



Meanwhile, just showed these pics to my partner... she said 'Cool, but it's a little sad that they can't go to war without their blankies...'

Posted By insaniak on 11/20/2006 12:15 PM
Meanwhile, just showed these pics to my partner... she said 'Cool, but it's a little sad that they can't go to war without their blankies...'

Brother Linus sounds like a Space Marine name too.

I always reconciled the entire Native American theme as being a tribute/honorifica for Cloud Runner & Lame Bear's sacrifice to cleanse their planet of genestealer infestation (rather than the ENTIRE first company/chapter being from that planet. However I never did like the arbitrary change from all black armor (RT-era) to Dark Angel's Green (2nd Ed). But whatever. At least they let Ravenwing keep it (though they did away with Iron Wing...).

As far as the figures, I think they suck like the vast majority of the 4th ed metal sculpts. It's not so much the details themselves, but that the details (and often elements of the figures themselves) are ridiculously out of proportion. In this case it's a combination of the overly huge greaves, the retardedly oversized robe, and then Brother Linus' very thick blankey and big feathers (wonder what he's hiding...)

it was not a tribute to cloud runner and co. Like insaniak said how the hell could the whole first company be native injun types? at the time that was the way GW took it, Ultraboys were roman, SW were viking werewolf types, BA were like renasonce vamps and the DA were native injuns as thats what the feathers were about. Dont try to rationalise it with other books written later on . As at the time thats how it was.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 11/20/2006 12:38 PM
I always reconciled the entire Native American theme as being a tribute/honorifica for Cloud Runner & Lame Bear's sacrifice to cleanse their planet of genestealer infestation (rather than the ENTIRE first company/chapter being from that planet.   

The problem with that being that it (if I remember correctly) actually mentions in the story that they have all of the Chapter's suits of Terminator Armour with them... It's one of the things they discuss when they're trying to decide whether to stay and fight.

@ nyarlathotep667 SO unless the dark angles only have a few suits of termie armour you will have to concede that DA were Injuns originally.

Posted By beef on 11/20/2006 12:52 PM
@ nyarlathotep667 SO unless the dark angles only have a few suits of termie armour you will have to concede that DA were Injuns originally.

post your proof. i want screenshots or it didn't happen.. quote your source.. otherwise we can surmise nothing from you.. nothing..

Nerd penis time!

In before lock.

I can remember painting the figure on the left in a past life.

The Dark Angels were my first real 40K army many moons ago, and probably the only chance of me starting 40K again.

I guess I'll wait to see what 5th edition has in store.

On INjuns, remind me in June when I'm reunited with my beloved stuff and I can @##$ing scan the original story and artwork.

The Deathwing story was written long before the 2nd edition codex and clearly said ALL the DA came from the Injun Planet, not some, not the first company, not most, ALL and they had been coming from there for TEN THOUSAND YEARS.

The 2nd edition codex ignored that and went ahead with dresses and midgets and what have you.

Personally I wish they'd drop the Native American theme since it just does not fit, it's like throwing Samurai into the Space Wolfs. Yay Samurai, but they would not fit.

On those 2 guys, not too impressed, like others said nice details but bad proportions and too busy. And they are very obviosuly the same basic figure with different details added, at first I thought they might be a plastic kit showing different options. For the last few years GW has not bothered sculpting more than one or two bodies for their units and just recycles them. See the IG officers and Autarchs for more examples.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 11/20/2006 3:03 PM
For the last few years GW has not bothered sculpting more than one or two bodies for their units and just recycles them. See the IG officers and Autarchs for more examples.

Actually, they've always recycled bodies... just that they used to use a few extra varients. The original Harlequins, for example, had about 30-odd different figures... but mostly based on half a dozen different bodies.

 

I love the models but the feathers are somewhat overwhelming. I mean they just look huge. And whilst the draped cloak does look nice when painted it sort of feels like a cop out on behalf of the modeler. I am a fan of the serious static poses. As long as all the DAs don't end up with those massive space turkey feathers they other models should turn out all right.

And I love that sword. More models need massive swords. Or scythes. There are never enough scythes.

Who cares about Injun Joe anyways? Thats not dark angels, just a part of them written oh so long ago.

Perahps the dark angels manifestation of guilt, the keepers of secrets, are merely one of the dark angels guilt manifestations.

Having Injuns in the fluff is alot like having white guilt for reservations and destroying an indigenous peoples way of life, and identity.
Dark angels are sorry. They wont do it again. *throws plague blankets onto planets*

Posted By Atma01 on 11/20/2006 3:37 PM
 More models need massive swords. Or scythes. There are never enough scythes.

Quoted for truthery. Its almost sig worthy in fact.

Dark Angel's Buttz, drive me nutz....

www.laposadadelfriki.com/images/gd/06/IMGP0789.JPG

Interesting. So the DA logo is modeled on and not painted?

Yes we need more scythes. Many many more. All of histories greatest badasses had sycthes. Because one immutable law of the universe is never mess with a man with a sycthe. Point in fact, the Grim Reaper.

I am interested in seeing what the new Deathwings look like. Hopefully there won't be los and lots of those massive feathers on them. And Emperor help us all if they put a deamcatcher on the sprue. I really don't see how you can improve upon the new Termies without making them look like ass.

It makes for a nice story, but it is simply naive to think that there will still be caucusoids, negroids, mongoloids and other -oids in 38,000 years.  Odds are that we'll all be a nice even shade of medium beige, or possibly taupe.  Some of us will be Putty, but they will be laughed at.

And before you ask,  yes, I did minor in cultural anthopology.

I guess the main thing to remember is that Dark Angels have wings, and what are on those wings? Yeppers, you guessed it, feathers.

Posted By Jester on 11/20/2006 4:31 PM

It makes for a nice story, but it is simply naive to think that there will still be caucusoids, negroids, mongoloids and other -oids in 38,000 years.  Odds are that we'll all be a nice even shade of medium beige, or possibly taupe. 

and hairless





in the grim darkness of the future...
there is only Diesels

Wasn't it the Deathwing that adopted the feathers and other Native Iconagraphy because many of the members at that time came from a planet (remember, they don't have a planet) that was similiar to the NA NAtive Americans. When so many were wiped out they wore the feathers and bleached the armour bone. Something like that. It was years ago that I read it. it's not like they are waving tomahawks or wearing buck skins.

The real question might be who cares since we all know the Dark Angels and Lion El Johnson are really chaos heretics..... so even if they were originally
native american esque the inquisition will presently be on its ways to virus bomb them all anyway. I guess history does repeat itslf.

Posted By Ahtman on 11/20/2006 5:30 PM
Wasn't it the Deathwing that adopted the feathers and other Native Iconagraphy because many of the members at that time came from a planet (remember, they don't have a planet) that was similiar to the NA NAtive Americans.      

That's what we've been discussing.

Not sure what you mean by 'they don't have a planet'... They have many planets that they recruit from. That was the case even before Caliban was destroyed.

I believe that the inference in the original Deathwing story was that, while based on Caliban, the Dark Angels recruited solely from the (Native American-ish cultured) planet featured in the story.


Of course, you could take that as simply meaning that at that particular point in time, they only recruited from there. Maybe it was the near destruction of their homeworld that prompted them to start recruiting from other worlds...

Posted By brettz123
since we all know the Dark Angels and Lion El Johnson are really chaos heretics. 

We do?

No matter what the First Company will always have the NA iconography. My guess behind these models having it would be either First Compant Veterans, Captains, or Honor Guard models for one of the Characters they re-do.

Best part of the Deathwing story has to be the part about the initiation ritual where they give you drugs to keep you lucid, put you on a table, cut you open, examin your interna organs and lay them out on the table for the day. Then if you are still alive they stick you back up and you're in.

I am so tempted to make a joke about the current initiation rituals involvings drugs, tables and internal organ examination. Those poor poor Initiates never knew what hit them.

Ahtman, you might want to read the thread instead of just posting...

Posted By malfred on 11/20/2006 4:19 PM
Interesting. So the DA logo is modeled on and not painted?

Looks like it. Good god are those pics HF linked make them only look even more ridiculously over the top. Blarghh. Such a change from the kickin rad Ezekiel, Asmodai and Azrael figs from back in the day that are still top notch sculpts (and, sadly, apparently no longer available and/or out of production). Worse, these awesome figs are being replaced by this crap? Ugh.

Anyhow, regarding my earlier comment, I don't really care what was written in Deathwing or the Angels of Death 'dex, how *I* reconciled the giant plot holes and discontinuous fluff was only some people came from that planet, not the entire chapter. Whatever, it really doesn't matter since GW has made major changes to the Dark Angel's fluff without any regard to what was previously written several times.

If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

Posted By brettz123 on 11/20/2006 6:42 PM
If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

Do we have to?

Posted By brettz123 on 11/20/2006 6:42 PM
If you read Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe you would know.......

...that it was a story told from the point of view of one of the Fallen, not a factual account of what 'actually' happened.

Unless the Fallen know the actual truth.

Eeep, there I go waving my e-peen.

Well, yeah, they were there, so presumably they know what actually happened.

But what actually happened, and what one of the Fallen is going to say happened, are not necessarily the same thing...

I'm sure if I was in danger of being tortured and executed as a Heretic, I'd be pretty tempted to claim that it was all a misunderstanding and I was actually the good guy as well.

Posted By malfred on 11/20/2006 7:15 PM
Unless the Fallen know the actual truth.

Eeep, there I go waving my e-peen.

That pen is going to be the death of you, Felix.

I had read the others, I was agreeing with those that were trying to point out that it was part of their past. I was just adding that, as we know, the DA's work out of the rock and recruit from other planets, and that it's not out of the realm of possibility that one of those planets would have something that resembled Native American culture. Like I stated, I was just weighing in on the "some feathers are ok and fluffy" side.

True but do that have to be giant mutant freak feathers? Considering that Marines are supposed to be like 2.5M tall in full armor those must be some big damn birds. I am wondering which of the other Seasme Street residents their cloaks are made of.

I would just like to state my love for that sword again. I am going to have allot of trouble resisting the urge to put that model in my mouth. It just looks so tasty.

Atma likes the sword. Who knew?

I'm sure that there are Space Emus and Space Condors that posess powerful pituitary processes, propagating profligate plumage in perpetuity.

i'm not too wild about tomahawk there, dunno they are really eh. too static?

Posted By Jester on 11/20/2006 4:31 PM

It makes for a nice story, but it is simply naive to think that there will still be caucusoids, negroids, mongoloids and other -oids in 38,000 years.  Odds are that we'll all be a nice even shade of medium beige, or possibly taupe.  Some of us will be Putty, but they will be laughed at.

And before you ask,  yes, I did minor in cultural anthopology.

I guess the main thing to remember is that Dark Angels have wings, and what are on those wings? Yeppers, you guessed it, feathers.

I agree since I think by 38000 years from now we'll all be red with horns cause the space demons will eat our soles and the space emperor ain't real he's just like santa claus and superman and JFK and all those other made up guys so the space demons will eat us unless the green monsters or the space bugs eat us first!

Hey kids! Jester brought realism into a discussion of GW!!

Jester

And he brought the P&L smiley out of retirement! Mocking...too intense...must retort...

So on top of interior decorating and running around in dressed the DAs now keep an Emu, correction Space Emu, farm? Yeah that sounds about right. But they will have the comfiest pillows of all the Marine Chapters.

What will they do with the rest of our bodies once they eat the bottom of our feet?

We sure as hell won't be jellin', I can tell you that.

the feathers are not from the emu's, they are from the watchers of the dark who are really DODO's, though extinct for many years but the truth wass the DA had them for there supply of feathers.

No, the feathers are trophies from all of the Lords of Change they slay. It just shows how righteous they are that they can wear them without succombing to the taint.

Hehehe, he said "taint."

actually he said succoming and taint in the same sentence..  ooohhhh

is that pervert speach for something??

Insaniak,
You are always so negative . It wasn't told from the point of view of one of the fallen. The part pertaining to the Horus Heresy was told from the point of view of Cypher. Very interesting stuff by the way. And it really did seem not only that the Lion was, shall we say, just a little less than loyal to the Emperor but that the current Dark Angels perhaps should be a little bit more loyal themselves. Very interesting book. Always thought that he hould have written another one the way.
So if you have not read the book you should. But if you haven't the essentiallly a small command squad of Dark Angels goes to a planet which I believe they are going to recruit new initiates from. Led by a Chaplain. This is going to be a little sketchy on some of the details because it has been about four years since I read the book. Anyway Cypher shows up and they decide they have to catch him. It goes through this whole thing where he tells them how the fallen see what happened in the Horus Heresy. Essentially the fallen believe that Lion El'Johnson did not fight with the Emperor for Terra because he was waiting to see who was going to win and then Luther called him out on it and the Fallen marines were really the ones that were loyal to the emperor. Now is this true? Well we don't really know but it makes for some really good reading, his argument is really logical when he talks about some of the other stuff, and the chaplain believes it too.
So if you never read any of the black library books this is the one you really should read. And amazingly enough Gav Thorpe is actually a good writer.

So yes the Dark Angels hide a very nasty little secret and that isnt that part of the Chapter succumbed to chaos it is that their Primarch wasn't as loyal to the Emperor as he should have been.

What a terrible pair of minis.

Subjectively, the pose is too static (mentioned previously) and the details lifeless. Look at the cloth on the figures; it hangs like some sort of idealised fabric from a deco-era poster. Look at the flat and boxy feathers. Even apart from the pose, nothing about the figure suggests any sort of movement or use; everything is pristine and dangles unaffected by wind or inertia. These are models of statues of Dark Angles. Naturally, this is all simply my opinion on the matter, so take it as you will.

However, objectively, these miniatures aren't even particularly good for gaming. They only have one hand as one entire arm is concealed by an ugly cloak. Either you'll have to contend with Dark Angle commanders having only one weapon or use a different minature for your commander. Well, that is unless you think that bolt pistols and power swords look fine hanging off the belt despite being rediculously oversized.

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 8:45 AM
It wasn't told from the point of view of one of the fallen. The part pertaining to the Horus Heresy was told from the point of view of Cypher.

... which makes a big difference, because Cypher is so much more trustworthy than any other Fallen...

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 8:45 AM
his argument is really logical when he talks about some of the other stuff, and the chaplain believes it too.

Of course it is, and of course the Chaplain believes it. That's what Cypher does. He wanders about the Galaxy spreading discord, distrust, and stale cookies.

You don't think that casting doubts on the loyalty of the Emperor's number one Chapter fits that job description...?

That is just what the Dark Angels and the inquisition want you to believe. As we all know everytime cypher visits a planet and starts some trouble that planet ends up being a stronger bastion of imperial faith afterwards.... even Abbadon has wondered about that. So yes I would say that Cypher probably is more trustworthy . He does carry the lion sword after all.......

Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/21/2006 12:16 PM

What a terrible pair of minis.

However, objectively, these miniatures aren't even particularly good for gaming. They only have one hand as one entire arm is concealed by an ugly cloak. Either you'll have to contend with Dark Angle commanders having only one weapon or use a different minature for your commander. Well, that is unless you think that bolt pistols and power swords look fine hanging off the belt despite being rediculously oversized.

I have to disagree with this.... what an awesome way to hide a powerfist > .... now its like..... BAM my veteran sergeant has a power fist hiding behind is cloak that acts like a free storm shield...... ahhhh that must be it.  The Dark Angels probably get free storm shields if you take a model with a cloak and when on campaign it can double as a tent.  Now it all makes sense.  It is just about being practical.

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 12:54 PM
He does carry the lion sword after all.......

...well, A sword, anyway.

If we start going by the books then that means Horus was EMO. Do you really want to play a game based around some angsty rich kid who wanted revenge on his father for never hugging him when he was little? No. I didn't think so.

And whats even worse then we would have to consider those god aweful C.S.Goto DoW books. I blocked the memory of reading those out of my mind for a reason.

Does anyone have positive confirmation that these are actually supposed to be Captain models as opposed to a Honorguard unit or Veteran Sergeants?

And wasn't the book not from Cypher's point of view, but from another high ranking member of the Dark Angels?

Also weren't the seeds of distrust sown early when Lion showed distrust in the chapter members that were originally recruited from Terra by the Emperor? Lion had the newer members of the chapter watch them, and basically relegated them to unimportant duties while the marines he had recruited went on important missions? Wasn't there something else about part of the chapter not coming to the others aide?

It was all very interesting stuff. I like it. Been playing since the old RT days, so it fit with the black and red DAs I still field to this day. I play them as Dark Angels, but they are considered fallen by the true "green" Dark Angels.

Posted By insaniak on 11/20/2006 12:15 PM

Posted By Elusive71 on 11/20/2006 9:41 AM

The Dark Angels drew their recruits from all over the place, so maybe those particular marines featured in Deathwing were drawn from a people who were culturally similar to Native Americans, while the chapter as a whole was monastic in nature.

That was one of the problems with the Deathwing story... Despite the Dark Angels drawing their recruits from numerous planets, their entire 1st Company is apparently all from the same one...

Elusive71, I've had enough of your buffoonery! I happen to have my *ahem* .pdf file of Deathwing right here and on page 4 it clearly states that they solely recruited from the "Plains People":

"'Our world is ended; our time is done,' said Weasel-Fierce. His words tolled like great, sad bells within Cloud Runner’s skull. Weasel-Fierce was right. Their entire culture had been exterminated.

The only ones who could remember the world of the Plains People were the Marines of the Dark Angels. When they died the clans would live only in the Chapter Fleet’s records. Unless the Dark Angels broke with tradition and recruited from other worlds, the Chapter would end with the death of the present generation of
Marines."

So at that point in the development of the Dark Angels' backstory, GW was portraying the entire chapter as being made up of recruits from a world peopled by Native American-esque tribesmen.

Here's another interesting tidbit-

From the first page of the story:

"Cloud Runner gazed on the wreckage of his home and felt like weeping. He closed his eyes and took three breaths, but when he looked again, nothing had changed. He turned back towards the dropship Deathwing."

From the last page of the story:

“'Semper Fideles,' said Cloud Runner. 'You must take back the suits. They belong to the Chapter.'

Broken Knife nodded.

'Perhape a favour. In honor of our dead, leave the suits the color of Deathwing. The deeds of our brothers should be remembered.'

'It will be so,' replied Broken Knife.'“Deathwing will be remembered.'”

Elusive71, I was simply trying to find a happy medium that could reconcile the seemingly conflicting imagery.

Oh, well in that case Elusive71, I commend your efforts.

Well there you go then...

It has been a while since I read Deathwing, so I was obviously confusing later fluff with the recruiting from other worlds.

Just a quick question, was that PDF of the original Deathwing story? Or the more recent re-print?

It's a pdf of the original Deathwing manual. Shhh...

 

Thanks floating lazer duck head thing! Once again I am proven right in all things.

Next up, demonstrating how the White Scars are a total retcon who have nothing to with the original concept.

Where are my souldrinker squads?

The DA are just very paranoid, they have the traits of there primarch, the SW are like a pack of wolves, Thye are loyal, fierce and boastful, but always loyal to the emporor and to there primarch. The DA are suspisious by nature as there primarch was also very paranoid. Yes his upbringing had alot to do with it, he was alone through his childhood and hunted so that made him not trust things and people. Like Horus said he was a wild animal, Russ was found by wolves and then humans, Wolves and human share certain characteristics, Loyalty, social structure and a pack mentality. they look out for there own.

Elusive is Sybil. Cute.

When were the Whitescars not mad mongols on bikes, hopped up on goofballs?

Posted By Jester on 11/21/2006 5:00 PM
 

When were the Whitescars not mad mongols on bikes, hopped up on goofballs?

I will have to take you back a long way in time, to when I was but a boy and Chapter Approved the First Book of the Astronomicon was canon.

In those days the White Scars specialized in jump troops not bikes.  And there was not a mongol to be seen.

But then GW had to go and mess it all up. 

there were some other inconsistancies, for example the Ultras were a 3rd founding chapter who lived on Dune and had a half eldar librarian.  But those days are gone now, they happened in Universe B before the Great Crisis.

I miss the Field Police. And the Squats. And Mohawkked Space Elfs.

I just want them to bring the Mole Mortar back.

And Eldar Pirates that looked like regular eldar, but better painted armor and niftier tactics. And could ally with Ork pirates and even rogue Space Marine pirates. Yarrrr! Space Piratry!

Also, Russ read a lot of Beowulf in his day.

What superhuman space viking hasn't been rivetted to the floor of the space longhouse with the tale of King Hrothgar's bar and when Beowulf stole those magical green beans from the baby troll's mom?

Posted By Jester on 11/21/2006 8:18 PM
What superhuman space viking hasn't been rivetted to the floor of the space longhouse with the tale of King Hrothgar's bar and when Beowulf stole those magical green beans from the baby troll's mom?

I sure have.  Whoo smokies!  What a story.

Semper Fideles? Are they Space Marines or United States Marines?

the Uniteed states wishes they had Space marines.

We're working on it.

what in area 51?

Posted By brettz123 on 11/21/2006 12:57 PM
I have to disagree with this.... what an awesome way to hide a powerfist >

Well, if there's one thing the Dark Angels love, it's hiding the power fist!

Posted By beef on 11/22/2006 1:33 AM
the Uniteed states wishes they had Space marines.

In all fairness, I would think just about any country wouldn't mind a chapter or two guarding them really.  Good for morale, but the costs associated with it...oh mama.

Posted By beef on 11/22/2006 1:33 AM
the Uniteed states wishes they had Space marines.

Tell me again why we wish we had space marines?

They'd be redundant...

Posted By Jester on 11/21/2006 8:18 PM
...and when Beowulf stole those magical green beans from the baby troll's mom?

Beowulf as told by Brian Fellows.

true the US has Chuck, they dont need anybody else, Chuck for president/