Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

guilliman and some assassins and forge world character dreads? Please...spare us calling this a space marine army.

Aside from some Assassins...what about it isn't a Space Marine army...?

I think the problem is that it allied in something (what, 2 models? 3?) where as in previous editions Marines didnt need to bother about them.You can find a less flame-baity way to say this, thanks. motyak

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

guilliman and some assassins and forge world character dreads? Please...spare us calling this a space marine army.

Aside from some Assassins...what about it isn't a Space Marine army...?

To be fair, and not having seen the list, if it included a bunch of Forge World models, it would be like someone complaining that Guard is OP because Elysians exist. Or that Chaos Marines are broken because Malefic Lords exist. Same overarching faction, but different book/army list. Namely: it doesn't say whether the core codex is strong or weak, it just says that the cherry picked Forge World units are good.

Martel732 wrote:
Baal preds and furiosos and sgs better drop or the whole book will be useless.

Lets be honest here GW could resurrect Sanguinius and allow BA to include him for free and you'd still complain.

Well, a big fat expensive melee unit is probably one of the worst things to add to an 8th ed list.

Please ensure that when you post in this thread you aren't just posting flamebait, thanks

Clearly if.marines with some assassin's placed 2nd.then marines are not the.worst. also, here is a question for the rest of you. If your codex is the worst, what is your win loss ratio aside from playing against maelific lord spam and dual primarch lists.

Also, what is an acceptable win loss ratio. I have been doing some math hammer and pts wise marines seem like they are in a good place. The primary complaint might be that they are not specialised enough. Given that I have been asserting that they are jack of all trades that may hurt them as they pay for statistics they rarely use or would rather not use. If this really is the case, then perhaps marines are not the best tournament list and better for casual play.

 sennacherib wrote:
I have been doing some math hammer and pts wise marines seem like they are in a good place.

This comment made me laugh.

At least bring some anecdotal "I have played marines and they are balanced" rather than a comment that amounts to "I haven't really played as or against marines in 8th edition, but that isn't stopping me from doing some dubious excel work and declaring them A+++"

I'm going to assume that everyone saying marines are balanced loses about half of the games they play against space marines.

And then i'm going to laugh at you, because you're probably losing to lists with primaris marines in them. Or something like imperial fists? Pretty funny honestly.

I can imagine you guys actually losing to mono-grey knights and being like, "this is total bs, i have no way to deal with 1 damage smites!" haha

So for another data point, I played in a tournament this weekend. It was the local Masters event - what one might call our state championship. Not massive at 50 people but as competitive as our area gets.

Top spot was taken out by an Alaitoc list piloted by the generally-accepted best player in the area. The army didn’t really have a ‘gimmick’, just a classic tournament style MSU army with Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms and a Crimson Hunter.

The rest of the top 10:

1 - Craftworlds + Shadow Spectres
2 - Guard+ - Shadowsword, Manticores, Plasma Scions, a few Smites and Celestine
3 - Orks - 204 of them
4 - Guard - Catachan parking lot
5 - Chaos Soup - Magnus and Smite Spam
6 - Chaos Soup - slightly different Magnus and Smite Spam
7 - Tyranids - 3 Flyrants, Swarmlord, fairly monster heavy
8 - Craftworlds + Shadow Spectres - Alaitoc with 3 flyers, 2 Serpents, 10 Dark Reapers, Fire Prism and some others
9 - Eldar Soup - Yncarne, 5 flyers
10 - Chaos Soup - Magnus, Mortarion, Baneblade, Changeling, Malefic Lords and Cultists
11 - Space Marines - Guilliman’s parking lot

Make of that what you will, but it does show no Space Marines in the top 10, and the Ultramarines list coming in at 11 had Guilliman and no Power-Armoured (or Terminator) infantry. In fact, apart from a 5-man GK Strike Squad, I had the only loyalist Power Armour / Terminator infantry in the top 20.

For reference, I came in at 17th with Black Templars:

Helbrecht
Emperor’s Champion
Lieutenant

3x 10-man Crusader Squads with 5 Neophytes and 2 Power Swords

2x Rhinos with twin Storm Bolters

Land Raider Crusader with all options
Quad-Las Predator with HK Missile

Terminator Chaplain

10 Thunder Hammer Terminators
Relic Contemptor with Chainfist, Power Fist and 2 Heavy Flamers
Cenobyte Servitors

I think it’s fair to say that my area supports the argument that Marines are ok with Guilliman and non-competitive without - our top 10 had none, top 20 had one with Guilliman and one without.

BlastaRasta wrote:

secretForge wrote:
Just went to a 90 man event, in the uk, won best adeptus astartes player as 41st place! admittedly many of the lists further up contained some marine elements. but its deff not looking good for purists.

for full disclosure - second place at this event was space marines and assassins... so you know. clearly not that bad when you know what your doing.

Like i say, its not looking good for purists, im not familiar with all of the lists at the event, and the top tables will always be filled with excellent players, but from what I gather of that list, its not codex space marine units that are making it work, its character mechanics, hiding behind the closest thing to invisibility that 8th provides. Not to take away from the players excellent performances, and a very enjoyable event. I just would like to have a good time against similarly mono book lists without having to rely on a guilliman crutch (which i did), or a minus 1 to hit build, to even feel like i can get a 50% win. I'd like to believe in the core strength of my units.

41 pages in, and people are still talking past each other.

Marine players are only arguing against people saying "The marine codex is perfectly fine, even OP!"

and people disagreeing with the thread largely based on the title: "Proof that marine codex is the worst."

We've had 8 codexes at this point.

three seem very obviously solid. Eldar, Nids, and Guard all have good depth, internal balance, and variety of different viable builds.

Chaos Marines squeaks in to make it a top four with a heavy reliance on soup and Forgeworld options, but has a few inarguably solid unit choices and sets of legion traits.

Death Guard, I know people are going to rank as higher than marines. But how much of the actual Death Guard codex do we see? If Guilliman is a "lone unit crutch" then what in the flippity-flip is Mortarion, AKA 95% of the actual list representation of the death guard we see in tournaments? Yes, death guard appears in many, many more lists, arguably he is part of the meta setup at this point, but if we flipped this around, and the meta list was "Guilliman+Celestine+Guard" with absolutely ONLY Guilliman appearing, would people take that to mean Marines were fine? Maybe I'm just not seeing all these mono or mostly death guard lists hitting tournaments, but if someone felt like pointing them out I'm curious where they're hiding.

And then here we've got Marines, arguably in either fifth or sixth place. Good? Obviously not. It is abundantly clear that the set of codexes that were released shortly after the indexes did not contain a substantial enough points balance pass, and so have the same terrible internal option balance as the indexes.

But when your point of argument is that marines are the WORST, you don't have to prove that they're worse than Eldar, or Guard, or Nids. You have to prove that they're doing worse than Codex: GMNKD or Codex: Cawl.

the_scotsman wrote:
41 pages in, and people are still talking past each other.

Marine players are only arguing against people saying "The marine codex is perfectly fine, even OP!"

and people disagreeing with the thread largely based on the title: "Proof that marine codex is the worst."

We've had 8 codexes at this point.

three seem very obviously solid. Eldar, Nids, and Guard all have good depth, internal balance, and variety of different viable builds.

Chaos Marines squeaks in to make it a top four with a heavy reliance on soup and Forgeworld options, but has a few inarguably solid unit choices and sets of legion traits.

Death Guard, I know people are going to rank as higher than marines. But how much of the actual Death Guard codex do we see? If Guilliman is a "lone unit crutch" then what in the flippity-flip is Mortarion, AKA 95% of the actual list representation of the death guard we see in tournaments? Yes, death guard appears in many, many more lists, arguably he is part of the meta setup at this point, but if we flipped this around, and the meta list was "Guilliman+Celestine+Guard" with absolutely ONLY Guilliman appearing, would people take that to mean Marines were fine? Maybe I'm just not seeing all these mono or mostly death guard lists hitting tournaments, but if someone felt like pointing them out I'm curious where they're hiding.

And then here we've got Marines, arguably in either fifth or sixth place. Good? Obviously not. It is abundantly clear that the set of codexes that were released shortly after the indexes did not contain a substantial enough points balance pass, and so have the same terrible internal option balance as the indexes.

But when your point of argument is that marines are the WORST, you don't have to prove that they're worse than Eldar, or Guard, or Nids. You have to prove that they're doing worse than Codex: GMNKD or Codex: Cawl.

This is all True, I think the debate has evolved from the OP statement. In my opinion the crux of the matter is that the 'Space Marine' in all its multifaceted forms is almost always a bad unit. And due to this fundamental observation that many have made of 8th, the 4 codexes that we have seen that are based upon this unit, feel bad to play. Because the people who want to play those codexes, often times want to use the conceptual core of those armies, because its what appeals to many about them when they select their race.

SM players that don't consider a list with SM plus assassins as a SM list are amazing. How many competitive AM lists have celestine?

It's also amazing how SM FW stuff doesn't count when all competitive chaos lists spam FW units but no SM players say that chaos is competitive mostly because it can spam an underpriced FW HQ. Not to mention chaos soups with DG or TS superheroes or even ynnari, which are a soup by definition.

More than half the armies in the top 11 posted above were actually soups. SM codex is not the worst compared to other ones, it's still one of the best.

Among the pure lists ultramarines are still among the most competitive ones. And I still believe that tyranids are winning only because of their new codex, they're not better than SM, even if SM don't bring guilliman. Eldar are not overpowered at all.

Tyranids are the #2 codex in the game, hands down. 2nd only to the IG.

 Blackie wrote:
SM players that don't consider a list with SM plus assassins as a SM list are amazing. How many competitive AM lists have celestine?

It's also amazing how SM FW stuff doesn't count when all competitive chaos lists spam FW units but no SM players say that chaos is competitive mostly because it can spam an underpriced FW HQ. Not to mention chaos soups with DG or TS superheroes or even ynnari, which are a soup by definition.

More than half the armies in the top 11 posted above were actually soups. SM codex is not the worst compared to other ones, it's still one of the best.

Among the pure lists ultramarines are still among the most competitive ones. And I still believe that tyranids are winning only because of their new codex, they're not better than SM, even if SM don't bring guilliman. Eldar are not overpowered at all.

The space marine codex isnt one of the best, a small number of units from it are useful, and none of them are actually space marines, thats what people done like. and yes its what sucks about gk, chaos and deathguard too. gk dont like being codex dreadnight, and marines dont like being codex guilliman, or ravenguard.

As usual, Eldar are very strong, but not quite what we are used to. They are still OP, but not "set up on the table and win OP". But to posters, that means that are NOT OP, when they are.

I would like to see every army have multiple builds and every unit be effective. That’s never happened for CSM since 4th ed when I really started playing. SM themselves seemed to have a book where everything seemed solid last codex so I can imagine that if their current book is lackluster it would be a disappointment.

I also think armies should be viable without their primarch. It may come down to the suggestion that playing smaller point level games would solve. 1500 pts would mean a primarch was a full 1/3 of your points.

Given that point reductions are around the corner, I would suggest sucking it up. You can always ally in some units to give your army chaff. Want specialist units like other codex have, play those codex or ally them in.

 Blackie wrote:

It's also amazing how SM FW stuff doesn't count when all competitive chaos lists spam FW units but no SM players say that chaos is competitive mostly because it can spam an underpriced FW HQ. Not to mention chaos soups with DG or TS superheroes or even ynnari, which are a soup by definition.

You know what's more amazing?
That isn't even a CSM unit that the chaos armies spam, it's a renegades HQ.
It's basically as if space marines spammed IG psykers

The discussion of if Marines are above average has had some constructive discussion.

The original is it the worst codex - was fairly easily answered.

But the comment about how the codex wasn't in the top 10 in that list above - neither was pure CWE, and we know they're above SM. Most of those top 10 listed included multiple factions, Forgeworld, or both. And one was an Index list!

The original question was very limiting, and almost insulting, but what it's evolved to is more interesting.

secretForge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
41 pages in, and people are still talking past each other.

Marine players are only arguing against people saying "The marine codex is perfectly fine, even OP!"

and people disagreeing with the thread largely based on the title: "Proof that marine codex is the worst."

We've had 8 codexes at this point.

three seem very obviously solid. Eldar, Nids, and Guard all have good depth, internal balance, and variety of different viable builds.

Chaos Marines squeaks in to make it a top four with a heavy reliance on soup and Forgeworld options, but has a few inarguably solid unit choices and sets of legion traits.

Death Guard, I know people are going to rank as higher than marines. But how much of the actual Death Guard codex do we see? If Guilliman is a "lone unit crutch" then what in the flippity-flip is Mortarion, AKA 95% of the actual list representation of the death guard we see in tournaments? Yes, death guard appears in many, many more lists, arguably he is part of the meta setup at this point, but if we flipped this around, and the meta list was "Guilliman+Celestine+Guard" with absolutely ONLY Guilliman appearing, would people take that to mean Marines were fine? Maybe I'm just not seeing all these mono or mostly death guard lists hitting tournaments, but if someone felt like pointing them out I'm curious where they're hiding.

And then here we've got Marines, arguably in either fifth or sixth place. Good? Obviously not. It is abundantly clear that the set of codexes that were released shortly after the indexes did not contain a substantial enough points balance pass, and so have the same terrible internal option balance as the indexes.

But when your point of argument is that marines are the WORST, you don't have to prove that they're worse than Eldar, or Guard, or Nids. You have to prove that they're doing worse than Codex: GMNKD or Codex: Cawl.

This is all True, I think the debate has evolved from the OP statement. In my opinion the crux of the matter is that the 'Space Marine' in all its multifaceted forms is almost always a bad unit. And due to this fundamental observation that many have made of 8th, the 4 codexes that we have seen that are based upon this unit, feel bad to play. Because the people who want to play those codexes, often times want to use the conceptual core of those armies, because its what appeals to many about them when they select their race.

Oh my yes. I'm 100% with you on the fact that your basic marine is a not great unit, and hasn't been done any favors by 8th edition in general. The core problem is very similar to what you see in the Admech codex troops as well: any kind of elite infantry is really tough to make work currently, because expendable hordes are their natural predator.

I hope we see at the very least a points adjustment for all these codexes as well as some semblance of balance applied to Forgeworld with the upcoming Chapter Approved book. My overall point is that arguing that Space Marines have a problem that is somehow distinct and worse than the same problem experienced by Gray Knights, Admech, Death Guard, and Chaos Space Marine power armor units in general is in my eyes an unsupported assertion.

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranids are the #2 codex in the game, hands down. 2nd only to the IG.

Come on man, you can't drop a statement like that in the middle of this thread without at least some semblance of fraught mathhammer whinging to back it up. The codex has been out a week.

That said, I do think there are some really strong combos conceptually.

Actually, I can and I did. I'm tired of typing out mathhammer to have it dismissed with "git gud". So that's my opinion, and I think it will be borne out. Maybe I'm wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I can and I did. I'm tired of typing out mathhammer to have it dismissed with "git gud". So that's my opinion, and I think it will be borne out. Maybe I'm wrong.

IOW: "I won't back up my position with data because when I do, people manage to see that it is wrong anyways. At least if I make an unfounded assertion it might make people wonder if I am right."

If you say so.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I can and I did. I'm tired of typing out mathhammer to have it dismissed with "git gud". So that's my opinion, and I think it will be borne out. Maybe I'm wrong.

IOW: "I won't back up my position with data because when I do, people manage to see that it is wrong anyways. At least if I make an unfounded assertion it might make people wonder if I am right."

True.

Mathematical analysis is a great way of analyzing a game based essentially on 1/6 mechanics mixed with statistics. Assuming that your own opinion is more factual than a fact is a biased statement and lacks any deapth of understanding.

Seems like this while thread boils down to
Ally units seem to be good. Especially forge world.
Codex space marine wants every codex option to be viable.
Some space marine players refuse to use allies despite repeated losses to armies using allies, despite having the largest ally base in the game.

Pretty sure CSM, deathguard, GK And every codex out there wants every option to be good. Almost every army would do better with allies because more options are better than less, and anyone whining about not winning all the time despite not taking advantage of allies has to accept their lot in life. They made that choice not to use allies. Deal with it.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I can and I did. I'm tired of typing out mathhammer to have it dismissed with "git gud". So that's my opinion, and I think it will be borne out. Maybe I'm wrong.

I hear you on this, after all this is the realm of hyperbole. I am going to be playing a few games against Tyranids in the coming weeks (GSC and pure Tyranids most likely), so I am curious to see how it plays out with the new codex rules.

I do think it's very strong, and there are some combos that should force opponents to make really bad decisions. If the Tyranids can make that first turn charge and sustain it I think they will do very well, but that's the problem with hand to hand in this edition, is sustaining assaults from round to round without getting reduced to an ineffective number by return fire.

Their anti-psyker mechanics are the best in the game, without a doubt, but that has the potential to be an investment without a return in a significant number of fights.

 sennacherib wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I can and I did. I'm tired of typing out mathhammer to have it dismissed with "git gud". So that's my opinion, and I think it will be borne out. Maybe I'm wrong.

IOW: "I won't back up my position with data because when I do, people manage to see that it is wrong anyways. At least if I make an unfounded assertion it might make people wonder if I am right."

True.

Mathematical analysis is a great way of analyzing a game based essentially on 1/6 mechanics mixed with statistics. Assuming that your own opinion is more factual than a fact is a biased statement and lacks any deapth of understanding.

Seems like this while thread boils down to
Ally units seem to be good. Especially forge world.
Codex space marine wants every codex option to be viable.
Some space marine players refuse to use allies despite repeated losses to armies using allies, despite having the largest ally base in the game.

Pretty sure CSM, deathguard, GK And every codex out there wants every option to be good. Almost every army would do better with allies because more options are better than less, and anyone whining about not winning all the time despite not taking advantage of allies has to accept their lot in life. They made that choice not to use allies. Deal with it.

Let's also be honest about skill, some people are simply not going to be as good, and this will color perceptions.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

It's also amazing how SM FW stuff doesn't count when all competitive chaos lists spam FW units but no SM players say that chaos is competitive mostly because it can spam an underpriced FW HQ. Not to mention chaos soups with DG or TS superheroes or even ynnari, which are a soup by definition.

You know what's more amazing?
That isn't even a CSM unit that the chaos armies spam, it's a renegades HQ.
It's basically as if space marines spammed IG psykers

While that is true - CSM does not have to spam malefic lords to win - as proven by their most recent victories. Frankly it's kind of a joke that tournaments even allow malefic lords at this point. More to your point - space marines would also have to spam IG infantry to screen the IG psykers...in which if you keep optimizing your list - eventually it has no space marines in it.

So CSM > SM, because CSM can take Renegades
IG > Renegades
SM can take IG

How is an SM list based on IG not SM, but a CSM list based on Renegades is CSM?

I get that IoM might have more powerful options that CSM don't have, but that doesn't make CSM more powerful than SM.

Bharring wrote:
So CSM > SM, because CSM can take Renegades
IG > Renegades
SM can take IG

How is an SM list based on IG not SM, but a CSM list based on Renegades is CSM?

I get that IoM might have more powerful options that CSM don't have, but that doesn't make CSM more powerful than SM.

I don't know how you got to those conclusions based on my post. I have claimed that CSM doesn't need to take renegades to win/place high in events as proven by recent tournament data. It is also clear that AM don't need to spam smite to win ether.

I'm not arguing that space marine or CSM take allies...there is just no reason to not completely remove space marines from your list if you are going to include "allies" this isn't the case with CSM because they have several high quality units in their own codex.

Also - by comparison to space marines - GK actually have a GMNDK to offer as an ally choice. IT is at least a competitive option and doesn't have the problem of - why not just take full guard instead? It makes sense to include the GMNDK - they are beast mode.

"More to your point - space marines would also have to spam IG infantry to screen the IG psykers...in which if you keep optimizing your list - eventually it has no space marines in it."

IOW, SM can't match CSM's Maelific Lords build, because IoM is better at it than SM.

I wasn't commenting on the "CSM's have other stuff" in that comment.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So CSM > SM, because CSM can take Renegades
IG > Renegades
SM can take IG

How is an SM list based on IG not SM, but a CSM list based on Renegades is CSM?

I get that IoM might have more powerful options that CSM don't have, but that doesn't make CSM more powerful than SM.

I don't know how you got to those conclusions based on my post. I have claimed that CSM doesn't need to take renegades to win/place high in events as proven by recent tournament data. It is also clear that AM don't need to spam smite to win ether.

I'm not arguing that space marine or CSM take allies...there is just no reason to not completely remove space marines from your list if you are going to include "allies" this isn't the case with CSM because they have several high quality units in their own codex.

Also - by comparison to space marines - GK actually have a GMNDK to offer as an ally choice. IT is at least a competitive option and doesn't have the problem of - why not just take full guard instead? It makes sense to include the GMNDK - they are beast mode.

how exactly are these conclusions "based on recent tournament data" when the two most recent tournaments we've been discussing have a list with 1500 points of Space Marines and 500 points of Assassins winning, and another with 1400 points of "blood angels", most of which were the two perfectly strong units we've been discussing for page after page after page that we've already established marines have?

You can claim that GMNKD>Cawlbots>Assbacks+Stormravens all you like. You can claim it, but you can't claim that's based on recent tournament data, because it's not. We see the standard Marine Soup Allied Core of "Chapter Master of Choice+Assbacks+Stormravens" appear far, far more often than we do GMNDKs or Cawlbots.

And of the other tourny listed on the same page (yes, it was a smaller event), every "CSM" list was a Renegades with a few CSM pieces.

The CSM lists shown were either Renegades lists using a couple things in the SM list, and/or they were relying on Primarchs. Two things SM can do (IG allies or Guilleman). But when SM does it, it doesn't show that SM is fine. So why does it count when CSM does it but not when SM does it?

(I agree that SM shouldn't need to rely on Soup or a Primarch or Forgeworld, but almost every army in those standings relied on one or more of those.)

But my poor tau and GKs

Wow. I can't believe this thread has gone for so many pages now. I supposes I shouldn't be surprised though.

Well, I think most can agree that the SM book is at the very least uninspired. The loss of some options as well as limitations like Honour Guard unit size is a bit dumb, but GW is backtracking now with their new spreadsheet regarding the index and codex.
Is it the weakest? No. Is it unplayable? Definitely not. But is it limited in application? Sure. Does it have highly situational and even useless Stratagems? Definitely so. Do they struggle due to the core rules in 8th? I'd say so. Could SM vehicles use a boost or drop in points? You bet.

It is a bit of uphill battle and competitive builds are a bit limited, especially since the omission of Formation rules and the neutering of Drop Pods. But I think it isn't as bad as some make it sounds. I know that plenty of Marine players are suffering a bit of an identity crisis and stopped playing for the time being, but that has probably little to do with the strength of the rules, but rather with how interesting they are.

This is my biggest criticism towards C:SM: It is bland and uninteresting. But I do not think they are the weakest faction.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So CSM > SM, because CSM can take Renegades
IG > Renegades
SM can take IG

How is an SM list based on IG not SM, but a CSM list based on Renegades is CSM?

I get that IoM might have more powerful options that CSM don't have, but that doesn't make CSM more powerful than SM.

I don't know how you got to those conclusions based on my post. I have claimed that CSM doesn't need to take renegades to win/place high in events as proven by recent tournament data. It is also clear that AM don't need to spam smite to win ether.

I'm not arguing that space marine or CSM take allies...there is just no reason to not completely remove space marines from your list if you are going to include "allies" this isn't the case with CSM because they have several high quality units in their own codex.

Also - by comparison to space marines - GK actually have a GMNDK to offer as an ally choice. IT is at least a competitive option and doesn't have the problem of - why not just take full guard instead? It makes sense to include the GMNDK - they are beast mode.

how exactly are these conclusions "based on recent tournament data" when the two most recent tournaments we've been discussing have a list with 1500 points of Space Marines and 500 points of Assassins winning, and another with 1400 points of "blood angels", most of which were the two perfectly strong units we've been discussing for page after page after page that we've already established marines have?

You can claim that GMNKD>Cawlbots>Assbacks+Stormravens all you like. You can claim it, but you can't claim that's based on recent tournament data, because it's not. We see the standard Marine Soup Allied Core of "Chapter Master of Choice+Assbacks+Stormravens" appear far, far more often than we do GMNDKs or Cawlbots.

I haven't seen these list. Why don't you tell me what tournament they are coming from? Why haven't the lists been posted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Well, I think most can agree that the SM book is at the very least uninspired. The loss of some options as well as limitations like Honour Guard unit size is a bit dumb, but GW is backtracking now with their new spreadsheet regarding the index and codex.
Is it the weakest? No. Is it unplayable? Definitely not. But is it limited in application? Sure. Does it have highly situational and even useless Stratagems? Definitely so. Do they struggle due to the core rules in 8th? I'd say so. Could SM vehicles use a boost or drop in points? You bet.

It is a bit of uphill battle and competitive builds are a bit limited, especially since the omission of Formation rules and the neutering of Drop Pods. But I think it isn't as bad as some make it sounds. I know that plenty of Marine players are suffering a bit of an identity crisis and stopped playing for the time being, but that has probably little to do with the strength of the rules, but rather with how interesting they are.

This is my biggest criticism towards C:SM: It is bland and uninteresting. But I do not think they are the weakest faction.

The question is are they the weakest faction with a codex. The only competitiors against them are Admech and GK. Every other codex is clearly better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Wow. I can't believe this thread has gone for so many pages now. I supposes I shouldn't be surprised though.

Space marine codex being bad - draws a lot of attention. Just look at the attention that the "do people still hate ultramarines" thread is getting. Lotta marine haters out there. More than marine players it seems.

I don't think the sm book is weakest, but it definitely does not have the makings of a high tier book. And if some rumors are to be believed, some of its most competitive choices are about to take a hit via chapter approved.

My biggest issue is that the actual marines from the marine codex are a joke. The few lists that get some lucky breaks and matchups and manage to slide into a high placement are virtually always gimmick lists abusing character rules or tanks/ravens, and have nothing to do with tacticals, ASM, devs, multiple types of veterans, termies, etc.

I would like to see the classic battle brother marines actually have a place in a competitive sm list, but maybe that's just me.

@Xenomancers - Of the existing Codices, I believe they are the blandest, most boring and most predictable. Are they the worst?
Well, I can not speak for AdMech and GK, seeing as I have not played against either. Well, I played a 1250 game against GK, but that game included Guilliman (preparation for a tourney), so it was a stomp.

However, I can speak about all the other ones. However, I do not think that an absolute statement is possible. Much like you can not judge the intelligence of a person in absolute terms as it is a factor which is depends on multiple varibles.

In terms of unit selection I believe IG, CSM and DG to be stronger by virtue of having bubble wraps within the codex. I'd also count Eldar as superior because of how awesome some of their Aspect Warriors and vehicles are. However, I rate many SM units better than Eldar infantry.
A lot of negativity regarding this comes from the fact that 8ed killed off fun rules from Formations, pretty much killed Drop Pods and banished some units to the index. No other Codex had to suffer this.

Unit viability isn't as grim. While Chaos has a lot of cool units, most are useless. The same goes for IG. The reason IG gets away with it because they are cheap and they can outscore the opponent if all else fails. While some Marine units are overcosted, many are highly efficient and powerful. I'd argue that Eldar are one of the new armies that beat Marines in terms of combat efficiency. Conscripts (post nerf) may look scary, but their not. I've tried them. DG have fun units, but they aren't cost-effective. Besides, there isn't much you can do wrong with Marine infantry. Most are very similar. Primaris can use a point drop though.

In terms of Stratagems they are the worst, hands down, even when compared to GK and AdMech. Things like Killshot, Empyric Channeling and Linebreaker are nigh unplayable, Orbital Bombardment is too expensive for very little and a lot of Stratagems are limited to specific units like TFC, various Scout types or specific weapons like HB. Eldar has the strongest Stratagems of them all, since they are rather general and very wide in application. I wish I could reposition three units after deployment as SM.

In terms of psychic powers SM got the short stick yet again. Psychich Fortress, Might of Heroes and Psychic Scourge are the only ones I ever use and they are very good. The rest is rather meh, especially when compared to the Eldar selection of amazing powers.

In terms of viable tournament builds, SM are limited, but so are other books. Let's go over them. IG have the classic Leman Russ spam + Scions or Scions + Mortars + Taurox Primes or Artillery spam. They may look diverse, but they are exactly the same in everything but name. Deep strikes with gunlines. They main draw is not really the power of their builds, but instead the point cost.
Since the death of Ynnari, Eldar will pretty much resort to Alaitoc hit modifiers abuse and that is pretty much it.
Chaos have Alpha Legion 'zerkers or Obliterator Spam (not counting Primarch double teams, as those are soup armies).
Marines have Guilliman parking lot or, to some degree, flyers. No faction can really claim to have interesting builds. The reason why they are mostly superior to Marines is that they do not offer any counter-play. Oblits and Alpha Legion controls their deployment. Eldar break game rules as they always do and Imps simply outman you. Marines are predictable and thus more easily counterable.

There is no question that Marines are one of the weaker factions. I read a Solac statistic that said that no SM or DG player have won their first pairing. This ought to tell people something about the balance.

I think that part of the issue is bad internal balance in the Marine book, Razorbacks and Ravens outgunning everything, Guilliman being broken and most other things being overcosted. The other issue is that Marines are tactically inflexible due to bad Stratagems and lack of deployment options since the death of Pods and lack of Scout moves.
This is also what makes them bland and uninteresting.

So yes, Marines are worse than IG, CSM, Eldar and DG, but not by a lot. The issue can be fixed relatively easily by adjusting points and giving us back some of our deployment options as well as more useful Stratagems. Once we have more tactical options, I guarantee that Marines will catch up and be more diverse.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I don't think the sm book is weakest, but it definitely does not have the makings of a high tier book. And if some rumors are to be believed, some of its most competitive choices are about to take a hit via chapter approved.

My biggest issue is that the actual marines from the marine codex are a joke. The few lists that get some lucky breaks and matchups and manage to slide into a high placement are virtually always gimmick lists abusing character rules or tanks/ravens, and have nothing to do with tacticals, ASM, devs, multiple types of veterans, termies, etc.

I would like to see the classic battle brother marines actually have a place in a competitive sm list, but maybe that's just me.

100% this.

Space Marines won the Da Boyz GT this past weekend.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I don't think the sm book is weakest, but it definitely does not have the makings of a high tier book. And if some rumors are to be believed, some of its most competitive choices are about to take a hit via chapter approved.

My biggest issue is that the actual marines from the marine codex are a joke. The few lists that get some lucky breaks and matchups and manage to slide into a high placement are virtually always gimmick lists abusing character rules or tanks/ravens, and have nothing to do with tacticals, ASM, devs, multiple types of veterans, termies, etc.

I would like to see the classic battle brother marines actually have a place in a competitive sm list, but maybe that's just me.

It isn't. But we're ranking Death Guard as stronger than Space Marines because of just mortarion, who admittedly appears in every other meta chaos list, but I don't think I've ever seen a Plague Marine, Whatever the new Terminators are called, special DG tank, etc... And apparently now we want to rank GK ahead because they have GMNDKs, again literally one single figure that is not a marine in power armor.

Marine bodies in general need a buff. Guard bodies in general need a nerf. This much is pretty obvious. The frustrating part here is the hilarious degree of double standards and dancing goalposts.

Frankly, I'm just following the thread because I want to see just how many times the Usual Suspects will jump out of the woodwork to dismiss a high-placing marine list as "A fluke, obv just lucky matchups" or "Not a REAL marine list, too many allies!!!1!" while at the same time making claims like "Nid list is #2 in power, obviously" when it's been out exactly one week and we've seen exactly zero data to see where it places.

When its a marine player making a claim, it's 100% A-OK okie dokie to refer to absolutely no data whatsoever, but when someone disagrees, the immediate response is "yeah but where's your DATA" even when the claim being made is about the exact lists and events we've been discussing for the last two pages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Space Marines won the Da Boyz GT this past weekend.

I'll save some time and about a page and a half:

-Not a big enough gt
-mustve been using weird house rules
-Just luck/pairings, unless we see the exact matchup and results of every die roll data isn't legitimate
-Must have just been Guilliman/Razorbacks/Stormravens, those units don't count as Marine units
-If it wasn't those three, see point number three
-Codex Space Marines still proven as worst codex

You can dismiss it out of hand but that is a very popular GT with a lot of the top players in the country attending.

Oh, and the data that was requested:

-2nd Place Battle For Salvation 2017 GT (Guilliman, 4x Stormravens, with Celestine and Assassins)

-2nd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Guilliman, Scouts, LS Storms, 3x Predators, with Guard Mortar Spam and Culexus)

-3rd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Blood Angels with Lemartes+Death Company, 2x Leviathan Dreads, Deredero Dread, Celestine and 2 Assassins)

-1st Place Dragonfall 2017 (Guilliman+3 SRs, Celestine, Culexus, Conscripts)

Taken from the Blood of Kittens October Top Lists (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/16/top-itc-tournament-lists-october-2017/).

Among those showings, Any admech models appeared only once (a cawlbot list won 2nd overall at Edmonton) and GKs appeared only once (the half-n-half soup list 3rd place at SoCal that has already been discussed.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
You can dismiss it out of hand but that is a very popular GT with a lot of the top players in the country attending.

I'm kidding, just getting the dismissal out of the way so the usual folks get saved the trouble.

So what was the winning list? I'm curious and can't find any data on it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Oh, and the data that was requested:

-2nd Place Battle For Salvation 2017 GT (Guilliman, 4x Stormravens, with Celestine and Assassins)

-2nd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Guilliman, Scouts, LS Storms, 3x Predators, with Guard Mortar Spam and Culexus)

-3rd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Blood Angels with Lemartes+Death Company, 2x Leviathan Dreads, Deredero Dread, Celestine and 2 Assassins)

-1st Place Dragonfall 2017 (Guilliman+3 SRs, Celestine, Culexus, Conscripts)

Taken from the Blood of Kittens October Top Lists (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/16/top-itc-tournament-lists-october-2017/).

Among those showings, Any admech models appeared only once (a cawlbot list won 2nd overall at Edmonton) and GKs appeared only once (the half-n-half soup list 3rd place at SoCal that has already been discussed.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
You can dismiss it out of hand but that is a very popular GT with a lot of the top players in the country attending.

I'm kidding, just getting the dismissal out of the way so the usual folks get saved the trouble.

So what was the winning list? I'm curious and can't find any data on it.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/11/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-40k-da-boyz-gt.html

 Trade_Prince wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Oh, and the data that was requested:

-2nd Place Battle For Salvation 2017 GT (Guilliman, 4x Stormravens, with Celestine and Assassins)

-2nd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Guilliman, Scouts, LS Storms, 3x Predators, with Guard Mortar Spam and Culexus)

-3rd Place Salt City Gladiators 2017 (Blood Angels with Lemartes+Death Company, 2x Leviathan Dreads, Deredero Dread, Celestine and 2 Assassins)

-1st Place Dragonfall 2017 (Guilliman+3 SRs, Celestine, Culexus, Conscripts)

Taken from the Blood of Kittens October Top Lists (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/16/top-itc-tournament-lists-october-2017/).

Among those showings, Any admech models appeared only once (a cawlbot list won 2nd overall at Edmonton) and GKs appeared only once (the half-n-half soup list 3rd place at SoCal that has already been discussed.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
You can dismiss it out of hand but that is a very popular GT with a lot of the top players in the country attending.

I'm kidding, just getting the dismissal out of the way so the usual folks get saved the trouble.

So what was the winning list? I'm curious and can't find any data on it.

https://spikeybits.com/2017/11/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-40k-da-boyz-gt.html

Eyyy, look at that an admech detachment that wasn't Cawl! Nice to see the dragoon bomb making a showing.

That marine list obviously doesn't count because it has Celestine and only 25 power armored marine bodies, so it doesn't count as real.

I stick by my assumption that, much like most politicians, Marines are functional but uninteresting. A few tweak here or there will make them far more diverse. They aren't beyond redemption. Just look at the first Stormcast Battletome and compare it to the second. No further questions, your honour.

-g man and ravens
-g man and tanks
-I'd have to see this exact list, actually looks interesting, but still Celestine+fw dreads make up a ton of it.
-g man and ravens

This is the kind of gimmick I'm talking about. Yeah they're competitive lists but where are the actual MARINES in these lists? Tacs/asm/devs/vanguard/sternguard/company vets/assault termies/reg termies/variant armor termies/assault cents/dev cents/plus a dozen other small things like apothecaries and ancients...and not even going into primaris units...

What I don't understand is why the book managing to put together a competitive list makes it ok that a ton of units are sitting on shelves. I would like to see some actual marines in marine lists plx.

-da boyz list
Well this one at least has some devs, although they are only being brought up to snuff by g-man buffs, but at least there's actual power armor somewhere on the field, so it's a start.

Primaris will be having far more of a showing once

1) the point costs come down, which is likely to happen in CA
2) they receiving a transport that isn't 300pts, akin to a grav Razorback
3) they get access to other deployment options; Raven Guard and Reivers are a start

This should bring a good portion of power armour onto the board, as they aren't that bad right now, just unpolished and lacking mobility.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-g man and ravens
-g man and tanks
-I'd have to see this exact list, actually looks interesting, but still Celestine+fw dreads make up a ton of it.
-g man and ravens

This is the kind of gimmick I'm talking about. Yeah they're competitive lists but where are the actual MARINES in these lists? Tacs/asm/devs/vanguard/sternguard/company vets/assault termies/reg termies/variant armor termies/assault cents/dev cents/plus a dozen other small things like apothecaries and ancients...and not even going into primaris units...

What I don't understand is why the book managing to put together a competitive list makes it ok that a ton of units are sitting on shelves. I would like to see some actual marines in marine lists plx.

-da boyz list
Well this one at least has some devs, although they are only being brought up to snuff by g-man buffs, but at least there's actual power armor somewhere on the field, so it's a start.

So across the board basic CSM, plague Marines and Basic SM tactical should get a buff then.?

While I disagree that Marines are the "worst" codex, even if they are it would be a good sign that GW is actually balancing the "tiers" a lot better than in prior editions.

What I mean by this is that in prior editions, low tier armies didn't even make a showing in most tournies. Sure you might see 1-2 Ork or Dark Eldar armies in a 200 player tourney, but those were clearly outliers brought by players who just wanted to play their army rather than win
.
The fact that Marines are not only showing up at events, but placing as high as 2nd or 3rd overall proves 1 of 2 things, either:
A) That Marines are not the worst army be a decent margin or
B) If Marines really are the worst, then GW has finally managed a balanced game in which the "worst" army is still competitive

So really, take your pick. A or B.

-

... Clearly we need CTs on Vehicles, so people start taking Tanks and Ravens?

 sennacherib wrote:


So across the board basic CSM, plague Marines and Basic SM tactical should get a buff then.?

Yeah. It'd be nice to see actual marines in the competitive lists who are there on their own merit and not just because they're bringing free transports (ah the memories) or getting super buffed by one specific model forcing them to be one specific sub faction.

I've discussed it before but the long and short of it is that outside of g-man's aura, you could give every marine +1 attack, bolters 1 AP, and chainswords 1 AP, and I still wouldn't feel super-threatened seeing them across the table.

From my perspective marines are a tourney winning faction when you play a very specific type of game. When you bring the very best of the best of their codex you get a very strong force, but its so specific. As a whole, without those over-performing units the codex is bland and weak. Most of the stratagems you cannot even use in any given game, your goodies are over costed and you pay for a spread of stats you do not often get to use. Also unlike the more recent codices your chapter tactics do not apply to your vehicles.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
From my perspective marines are a tourney winning faction when you play a very specific type of game. When you bring the very best of the best of their codex you get a very strong force, but its so specific. As a whole, without those over-performing units the codex is bland and weak. Most of the stratagems you cannot even use in any given game, your goodies are over costed and you pay for a spread of stats you do not often get to use. Also unlike the more recent codices your chapter tactics do not apply to your vehicles.

They are the poster children of GW. They will get tons of new goodies soon so the SM players will keep happily buying. Not long now. You will see.

 Galef wrote:
While I disagree that Marines are the "worst" codex, even if they are it would be a good sign that GW is actually balancing the "tiers" a lot better than in prior editions.

What I mean by this is that in prior editions, low tier armies didn't even make a showing in most tournies. Sure you might see 1-2 Ork or Dark Eldar armies in a 200 player tourney, but those were clearly outliers brought by players who just wanted to play their army rather than win
.
The fact that Marines are not only showing up at events, but placing as high as 2nd or 3rd overall proves 1 of 2 things, either:
A) That Marines are not the worst army be a decent margin or
B) If Marines really are the worst, then GW has finally managed a balanced game in which the "worst" army is still competitive

So really, take your pick. A or B.

-

Some of us have a different issue. There is no question that you can make a competitive "astartes" list that can compete. But they aren't marines. They're a few vehicle chassis and a really big guy that can't be targeted. Some of us have problems with the fact that there are dozens of units in the book that are sitting on shelves outside of funsies games.

But if you're only taking the "top" lists from the book as the entire book's quality, then the answer is obviously A. Their top lists are pretty good for the moment. But man...that quality dropoff as soon as you don't take the top units is a doozy.

Bharring wrote:
... Clearly we need CTs on Vehicles, so people start taking Tanks and Ravens?

Tee hee, I lol'd.

Those other tourney results are interesting.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
But if you're only taking the "top" lists from the book as the entire book's quality, then the answer is obviously A. Their top lists are pretty good for the moment. But man...that quality dropoff as soon as you don't take the top units is a doozy.

I get what you are saying. But also remember that in 7th ed, Eldar were the top Codex yet only because of 3-4 spammed units. Lists that didn't include any of those specific units never placed.

Clearly Marines are no where near 7th ed Eldar, but the point I am trying to make is that most Codices have a "steep drop-off in quality" once you eliminate what the meta considers their best units.
This doesn't mean the army is bad, it means the designers have a hard time with internal balance. Deciding not to take the "good" units is a personal choice.

If you refuse to take Rock, you'll never beat Scissors. That doesn't mean Paper is the worst choice.

-

 Galef wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
But if you're only taking the "top" lists from the book as the entire book's quality, then the answer is obviously A. Their top lists are pretty good for the moment. But man...that quality dropoff as soon as you don't take the top units is a doozy.

I get what you are saying. But also remember that in 7th ed, Eldar were the top Codex yet only because of 3-4 spammed units. Lists that didn't include any of those specific units never placed.

Clearly Marines are no where near 7th ed Eldar, but the point I am trying to make is that most Codices have a "steep drop-off in quality" once you eliminate what the meta considers their best units.
This doesn't mean the army is bad, it means the designers have a hard time with internal balance. Deciding not to take the "good" units is a personal choice.

If you refuse to take Rock, you'll never beat Scissors. That doesn't mean Paper is the worst choice.

-

7e eldar didn't have as severe a drop off as many people think. My wife has them (and by extension, I've played with them quite a bit,) and I found their "2nd string" in 7e to still be quite workable, even upper middle tables worthy. *Almost* everything in their book was a solid B+ or better unit. One of my favorite cheeky tricks was starting shooting phase, having an enemy knight declare shield facing, and then battle focusing into a different armor arc. Night and day when you compare that to 2nd string marine lists in 8e. No g-man? No ravens or razors or even preds? Sounds like masochist marines!

I just realized. Devestators - they must be the key to success!

 niv-mizzet wrote:
-g man and ravens
-g man and tanks
-I'd have to see this exact list, actually looks interesting, but still Celestine+fw dreads make up a ton of it.
-g man and ravens

This is the kind of gimmick I'm talking about. Yeah they're competitive lists but where are the actual MARINES in these lists? Tacs/asm/devs/vanguard/sternguard/company vets/assault termies/reg termies/variant armor termies/assault cents/dev cents/plus a dozen other small things like apothecaries and ancients...and not even going into primaris units...

What I don't understand is why the book managing to put together a competitive list makes it ok that a ton of units are sitting on shelves. I would like to see some actual marines in marine lists plx.

-da boyz list
Well this one at least has some devs, although they are only being brought up to snuff by g-man buffs, but at least there's actual power armor somewhere on the field, so it's a start.

Yep! For the five hundred sixty fifth time this thread, I am not saying that marines are 100% fine and need no buffs. Power armor in general needs buffs, across the board, their infantry frankly doesn't exist in a competitive meta currently (there are many reasons for this, and things could help them other than direct buffs, like Smite nerfs, etc, but they also could use direct buffs).

But that's not actually what I'm taking issue with in this thread. The issue is that what's being argued is that marines are the WORST codex and need attention above and beyond the across-the-board power armor buffs we need to see from all factions or the balancing that obviously needs to happen from the first few codexes. Chaos Space Marines' basic power armor, Grey Knights' basic power armor, Admech's Elite Infantry, etc ALL suffers from the exact same problem. I'm arguing against Space Marines being this special snowflake that specifically needs direct buffs right now because they're so much worse than everything else. They very, very clearly are not.

But the second tier of SM is on par with the "B+" units in other dexes.

Sure, Tacs don't beat Maelific Lords, but they still beat half the Troop *choices* in the game (emphasis on choices, because otherwise we get dragged into 3 pages proving that there are only 3 troop choices in the game - whichever 3 non-Tacs placed highest last) one way or another.

Razorbacks don't have Ravager firepower, but they outshoot Serpents.

Quadlas Preds can't wipe out Tac squads as fast as a Fire Prism, but they can take down the big things faster.

Assault Marines... Ok, they suck competitively. They suck about as hard as Scorpions or Wyches or Vespids.

Rhinos are still really cheap for METAL BAWKSES, with good durability.

There are many non-B+ units in the SM codex, but the same is true for most other books. The 7E CWE book was an abomination. The 7E SM book was in the same range (more A-level options, fewer B-level options, and more C-level options).

I wish all books were more rounded. But that doesn't mean buff the middleground books. You buff those below average and nerf those above. Just buffing a middleground book makes another book middleground and makes things worse for the bottom half of the books.

I think a biggest problem is that Chaos Space Marines with Chainsword+Bolt Pistol don't have a place with Khorne Berzerkers in the same codex. Even one being troop and the other Elite.

Bharring, you are very wrong. Vespids in 8th are pretty damm good. They are leagues above Wyches, Assault Marines and Scorpions.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
But if you're only taking the "top" lists from the book as the entire book's quality, then the answer is obviously A. Their top lists are pretty good for the moment. But man...that quality dropoff as soon as you don't take the top units is a doozy.

I get what you are saying. But also remember that in 7th ed, Eldar were the top Codex yet only because of 3-4 spammed units. Lists that didn't include any of those specific units never placed.

Clearly Marines are no where near 7th ed Eldar, but the point I am trying to make is that most Codices have a "steep drop-off in quality" once you eliminate what the meta considers their best units.
This doesn't mean the army is bad, it means the designers have a hard time with internal balance. Deciding not to take the "good" units is a personal choice.

If you refuse to take Rock, you'll never beat Scissors. That doesn't mean Paper is the worst choice.

-

7e eldar didn't have as severe a drop off as many people think. My wife has them (and by extension, I've played with them quite a bit,) and I found their "2nd string" in 7e to still be quite workable, even upper middle tables worthy. *Almost* everything in their book was a solid B+ or better unit. One of my favorite cheeky tricks was starting shooting phase, having an enemy knight declare shield facing, and then battle focusing into a different armor arc. Night and day when you compare that to 2nd string marine lists in 8e. No g-man? No ravens or razors or even preds? Sounds like masochist marines!

Aye, 7E Eldar had a very broad spectrum of good units. Yes there were 2++ Seer Councils, Scatterbikes and Wraithknights. There were also Wave Serpents, BS5 Warp Spiders and "AP0/doubleAP1" bonus Fire Dragons, gobs of units with "auto-delete anything" D weapons, insane psychic domination, etc. There were a lot of very powerful and abusive units in that codex, not just like 3 or 4

To be fair though, Eldar are usually an exception, especially that book. In 8E thus far, most armies seem to still have lots of internal balance issues, even the much bemoaned IG codex has its fair share of stinkers (Mordian doctrines, Vanquishers, Chimeras, Banewolfs, Eradicators, Exterminators, Sentinels, etc)

Bharring wrote:
... Clearly we need CTs on Vehicles, so people start taking Tanks and Ravens?

Hey you know. Alpha legion could really use that buff. -1 to hit everything over 12” and the ability to infiltrate anothing in the codex including the game breaking daemon prince would be great.

Honestly though. Giving defilers infiltrate would lend them to greater use outside of Fun n friendly games.

 sennacherib wrote:

Hey you know. Alpha legion could really use that buff. -1 to hit everything over 12” and the ability to infiltrate anothing in the codex including the game breaking daemon prince would be great.

Honestly though. Giving defilers infiltrate would lend them to greater use outside of Fun n friendly games.

Well, the stratagem would still only apply to Alpha Legion Infantry in that case, but I don't disagree that being able to infiltrate obviously silly things would be amusing. It's bad enough thematically that somehow Alpha Legion Berzerkers are calm and collected enough to sneak up on their enemies.

Also, let's be fair, there is only one Daemon Engine worth mentioning, the Lord of Skulls. The rest of them are at best of questionable usefulness.

I pre-acknowledge any following posts presenting the various particular instances in which non-Lord of Skulls daemon engines are able to shine.

A friend of mine said he will stop bringing the Gman to tournies as soon as Chaos players stop bringing Magnus and Morty.

Maybe once all the Primarchs are out, we should organize a community event that kills them all off, so they don't hose up our tables again?

I know it'll be Heresey. Perhaps call it the 'House Heresy' or 'Sans-Horus Blasphamy'?

I want Horus on my team.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

Hey you know. Alpha legion could really use that buff. -1 to hit everything over 12” and the ability to infiltrate anothing in the codex including the game breaking daemon prince would be great.

Honestly though. Giving defilers infiltrate would lend them to greater use outside of Fun n friendly games.

Well, the stratagem would still only apply to Alpha Legion Infantry in that case, but I don't disagree that being able to infiltrate obviously silly things would be amusing. It's bad enough thematically that somehow Alpha Legion Berzerkers are calm and collected enough to sneak up on their enemies.

Also, let's be fair, there is only one Daemon Engine worth mentioning, the Lord of Skulls. The rest of them are at best of questionable usefulness.

I pre-acknowledge any following posts presenting the various particular instances in which non-Lord of Skulls daemon engines are able to shine.

Alpha Legion Berzerkers follow the "pop goes the weasel" strategy; stuff them in a crate disguised as an ordinary supply cache, and when the time comes...

I want Guilliman to be able to ride in a drop pod like the swarmlord.

Although AL Infiltrate vs RG Infiltrate is a good case study in why the same rules have very different value applied to two different armies.

I don’t think anybody is seriously contending that the SM codex is actually the worst. Not when GK are a thing. It’s an effective clickbait thread title, but the discussion that’s fallen out of it is very interesting - hence 40+ pages.

A couple of notes on the top 11 I posted earlier:

- The points limit was 2250, with a cap of 32PL per model
- The two Magnus + Smite Spam lists only used 1 Renegade and Heretic unit (Malefic Lord - one list used 4 of them, the other 5); the rest were CSM/Daemons/DG/1kSons
- The double Primarch list used a close to even split of R&H/DG/1kSons
- The Guard+ list was all Guard except for Celestine (no Geminae)
- The 2 Alaitoc lists used one unit of Shadow Spectres each (5 models and 9 models)

What you define as a soup army is up to you. The Guard+ list and the 2 Alaitoc lists each allied in a single unit that used less than 10% of the army points. In my eyes that’s doesn’t make them soup lists - it’s similar to adding a single Inquisitor or Assassin to a Marine list. While it’s not strictly a ‘pure’ list, I wouldn’t call it soup. The army mechanically functions as a pure list. (Also, now that Corsairs are gone, aren’t Shadow Spectres Craftworlds units anyway?)

If you use that definition, you get 4 soup armies to 6 pure(/ish).


To use a horrible analogy, the easiest way to see if somebody is actually crippled is to kick the crutch out from under them and see if they still stand. If you remove the crutch from each army, you’ll get a better idea of relative Codex power. And to stick with that awful analogy, they don’t count as standing if their friend hold them up - so no allying.

So take out Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Cawl, Malefic Lords, GM Dreadknight, Swarmlord(?)... Guard and Eldar don’t have crutches that I can think of, so let’s take away the Catchan and Alaitoc traits. And just to kick the top armies a bit harder, take out the Shadowsword, Genestealers and Dark Reapers. Now we get a better picture.

GK slam into ground zero. Sorry GK players, you guys are in a rough place right now.

Guard and Tyranids barely notice. Along with Eldar they still take the top spots.

AdMech are stung but Kastelans are still crazy, as are Electropriests. The chicken walkers are pretty handy, and Kataphrons and Dune Crawlers can still get some work done, as can Knights. Not a lot of variation there but they do have a very small Codex, and their Stratagems are top notch. Watch this space - Fires of Cryaxus has the potential to give these guys everything they’re currently lacking.

Which leaves DG and loyalist/traitor marines. I don’t have enough experience with DG to say much there.

Loyalists are left with Stormravens and Assbacks as competitive options. And those are rumoured to be getting cost increases. They also have the worst Stratagems. Chaos has Berserkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators and Daemon Princes, and much stronger Stratagems. Both can field Las Predators as solid B+ options (without Guilliman). Where Chaos really pulls away here are having native chaff units, and that the Chaos Forgeworld units are often stronger than their Loyalist equivalents.

With only two competitive options and rumoured inbound nerfs to those, I would say that competitively loyalists are edged out by AdMech, but Chaos strides ahead of both. So IMO the order of least to most crippled army after taking out their crutch is:

1. Guard
2. Eldar
3. Tyranids (maybe 2nd)
4. Chaos Marines
5. AdMech
6. Loyalist Marines
7. Grey Knights
Not sure: Death Guard

Remember this is strictly competitive, nothing to do with breadth of units available or anything. So depending on where DG are placed in that list, IMO loyalist Marines are either top of the bottom, or bottom of the middle.

kombatwombat wrote:
I don’t think anybody is seriously contending that the SM codex is actually the worst. Not when GK are a thing. It’s an effective clickbait thread title, but the discussion that’s fallen out of it is very interesting - hence 40+ pages.

A couple of notes on the top 11 I posted earlier:

- The points limit was 2250, with a cap of 32PL per model
- The two Magnus + Smite Spam lists only used 1 Renegade and Heretic unit (Malefic Lord - one list used 4 of them, the other 5); the rest were CSM/Daemons/DG/1kSons
- The double Primarch list used a close to even split of R&H/DG/1kSons
- The Guard+ list was all Guard except for Celestine (no Geminae)
- The 2 Alaitoc lists used one unit of Shadow Spectres each (5 models and 9 models)

What you define as a soup army is up to you. The Guard+ list and the 2 Alaitoc lists each allied in a single unit that used less than 10% of the army points. In my eyes that’s doesn’t make them soup lists - it’s similar to adding a single Inquisitor or Assassin to a Marine list. While it’s not strictly a ‘pure’ list, I wouldn’t call it soup. The army mechanically functions as a pure list. (Also, now that Corsairs are gone, aren’t Shadow Spectres Craftworlds units anyway?)

If you use that definition, you get 4 soup armies to 6 pure(/ish).


To use a horrible analogy, the easiest way to see if somebody is actually crippled is to kick the crutch out from under them and see if they still stand. If you remove the crutch from each army, you’ll get a better idea of relative Codex power. And to stick with that awful analogy, they don’t count as standing if their friend hold them up - so no allying.

So take out Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Cawl, Malefic Lords, GM Dreadknight, Swarmlord(?)... Guard and Eldar don’t have crutches that I can think of, so let’s take away the Catchan and Alaitoc traits. And just to kick the top armies a bit harder, take out the Shadowsword, Genestealers and Dark Reapers. Now we get a better picture.

GK slam into ground zero. Sorry GK players, you guys are in a rough place right now.

Guard and Tyranids barely notice. Along with Eldar they still take the top spots.

AdMech are stung but Kastelans are still crazy, as are Electropriests. The chicken walkers are pretty handy, and Kataphrons and Dune Crawlers can still get some work done, as can Knights. Not a lot of variation there but they do have a very small Codex, and their Stratagems are top notch. Watch this space - Fires of Cryaxus has the potential to give these guys everything they’re currently lacking.

Which leaves DG and loyalist/traitor marines. I don’t have enough experience with DG to say much there.

Loyalists are left with Stormravens and Assbacks as competitive options. And those are rumoured to be getting cost increases. They also have the worst Stratagems. Chaos has Berserkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators and Daemon Princes, and much stronger Stratagems. Both can field Las Predators as solid B+ options (without Guilliman). Where Chaos really pulls away here are having native chaff units, and that the Chaos Forgeworld units are often stronger than their Loyalist equivalents.

With only two competitive options and rumoured inbound nerfs to those, I would say that competitively loyalists are edged out by AdMech, but Chaos strides ahead of both. So IMO the order of least to most crippled army after taking out their crutch is:

1. Guard
2. Eldar
3. Tyranids (maybe 2nd)
4. Chaos Marines
5. AdMech
6. Loyalist Marines
7. Grey Knights
Not sure: Death Guard

Remember this is strictly competitive, nothing to do with breadth of units available or anything. So depending on where DG are placed in that list, IMO loyalist Marines are either top of the bottom, or bottom of the middle.

I'm sorry, but the very foundation of this breakdown is flawed. You say that this is a look at the armies as they perform competitively, but you remove units that you deem to be "crutch" units (IE their best units, IE their most competitive units). You have no set definition or criteria for what a "crutch" unit is other than "things that I or the internet think are OP". You cannot do a proper analysis of how good or bad a codex if you are arbitrarily not including certain units. You don't get to just say "Oh yeah, this codex is terrible so long as you ignore unit A, unit B, and unit C, they don't count." Would you accept someone saying that Malefic Lords suck if you ignore Smite? No, you wouldn't, cause Smite is a part of how that unit functions. Much like how these "crutch" units are parts of how their codices function.

I'm starting to get real tired of checking this thread and seeing this kinda disingenuous crap. "Yeah, if you ignore all the good/great/OP units in this codex, this codex sucks! And that's how we have to judge this codex cause I say so!" But the fact that we are on page 43 of a thread trying to argue that SM is somehow the worst codex when that is blatantly not true should be all I need to understand that I'm not going to get what I want to see.

By the definitions found in this thread, Death Guard are a Horrible, Unworkable load of crap.

1. they have only got a few good units and not much variety since you can only take one set of chapter tactics. Terrible. Terrible.

2. The chapter tactics they do have only apply to infantry and dreads since they don’t even have bikes they can use. Ohhh. The horror.

3. The only good troop unit that they do have is the best 8n the game. Cultists are tops. Period. Pox walkers are too slow. Can’t get any work done. A terrible unit.

4. Foul blightspawn. Ok. Has some good special rules.

5. Foetid bloat drones. The only other good unit in the codex. It has that all powerful key word Fly and it’s pretty versatile.

6. Mortarion is junk. He dose t give his army 200% bonus the way that the row boat does. Just junk. Why would anyone take him.

Sorry for the sarcasm. But that’s how allmost all the space marine players in this thread would have responded. Only look at the best things others have, complain about not being the best etc. I am very much enjoying my codex despite having less than 1/3 as many unit choices as space marines get. I have units like defilers, possessed and plague marines which are frankly over costed. Terminators are too slow and the daemons not being usable in detatchment kind of stinks. However I very much enjoy playing them. I beat a Guard army yesterday. They scored 0 vp against me and surrendered at the bottom of turn 4 when I destroyed their bane blade in their deployment zone leaving them with a chimera and a nearly dead pask. They were unbeaten in our local league.

Point being. All codex have some units that are not the best. I fielded a defiler and it did pretty well. Sometimes with a good general and a little luck anything is possible. I feel like DG are in a fun place.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I'm sorry, but the very foundation of this breakdown is flawed. You say that this is a look at the armies as they perform competitively, but you remove units that you deem to be "crutch" units (IE their best units, IE their most competitive units). You have no set definition or criteria for what a "crutch" unit is other than "things that I or the internet think are OP". You cannot do a proper analysis of how good or bad a codex if you are arbitrarily not including certain units. You don't get to just say "Oh yeah, this codex is terrible so long as you ignore unit A, unit B, and unit C, they don't count." Would you accept someone saying that Malefic Lords suck if you ignore Smite? No, you wouldn't, cause Smite is a part of how that unit functions. Much like how these "crutch" units are parts of how their codices function.

First up, I said at the very start of that post that nobody is actually contending that the Marine Codex is the worst!

Second, are you telling me that Roboute Guilliman is ‘part of how my Black Templars function’? Because if you are, I would like to have words with you. So would a lot of Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard and Iron Hands players. Not to mention the lesser known Chapters.

I’ll try to clarify my reasoning: the easiest way to see if an army is depending upon a crutch is to yank the unit out and see if the Codex can still stand competitively. Let me put it to you this way: say the 7th Ed Eldar Codex has the points cost for every single unit quadrupled, except Wraithknights which were dropped to 100 points a pop. That Codex would be unstoppable; you could fit 15 Wraithknights in 2000 points and still have a few other units. Is that a strong Codex? No, it’s a terrible Codex with one strong ‘crutch unit’. Take the crutch away - say by playing a Craftworld that doesn’t use Wraith Constructs for fluff reasons - and the whole army collapses competitively.

I don’t think anyone would disputes that the three Primarchs and Cawl are the most likely contenders for being ‘crutch units’ from their respective forces. So for my analysis of ‘strong Codex, not weak Codex with a strong crutch’ I took them out. Then, to try and make the comparison a bit more apples to apples, I took out each of the other books’ strongest unit that I could think of. It wouldn’t be fair to compare ‘Marines with Guilliman’ to ‘Death Guard without Mortarion’ for example.

The very fact that I struggled to find a crutch to yank out from under Eldar, Guard or Tyranids shows that they probably don’t have a crutch and can stand on their own. Which is why those three sit so firmly at the top of the tree. A similar but opposite phenomenon occurred for GK - they had neither a strong Codex nor a crutch to lean on, poor buggers. It actually makes some sense that the Codexes away from the extremes are the ones you would question if they are strong-ish, or weak with a crutch.

Army choice is as much a part of competitive 40k as list building is currently. A suboptimal army choice (e.g. Black Templars) is just as crippling as a suboptimal list or suboptimal play.

Whether or not this is desireable, it is truth. To say "Black Templars are bad" may be true, but to then say "Codex: Space Marines is bad therefore" is an error.

Some armies have more tools than others. The ones that lack tools are suboptimal for competitive play.

kombatwombat wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I'm sorry, but the very foundation of this breakdown is flawed. You say that this is a look at the armies as they perform competitively, but you remove units that you deem to be "crutch" units (IE their best units, IE their most competitive units). You have no set definition or criteria for what a "crutch" unit is other than "things that I or the internet think are OP". You cannot do a proper analysis of how good or bad a codex if you are arbitrarily not including certain units. You don't get to just say "Oh yeah, this codex is terrible so long as you ignore unit A, unit B, and unit C, they don't count." Would you accept someone saying that Malefic Lords suck if you ignore Smite? No, you wouldn't, cause Smite is a part of how that unit functions. Much like how these "crutch" units are parts of how their codices function.

First up, I said at the very start of that post that nobody is actually contending that the Marine Codex is the worst!

Second, are you telling me that Roboute Guilliman is ‘part of how my Black Templars function’? Because if you are, I would like to have words with you. So would a lot of Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard and Iron Hands players. Not to mention the lesser known Chapters.

I’ll try to clarify my reasoning: the easiest way to see if an army is depending upon a crutch is to yank the unit out and see if the Codex can still stand competitively. Let me put it to you this way: say the 7th Ed Eldar Codex has the points cost for every single unit quadrupled, except Wraithknights which were dropped to 100 points a pop. That Codex would be unstoppable; you could fit 15 Wraithknights in 2000 points and still have a few other units. Is that a strong Codex? No, it’s a terrible Codex with one strong ‘crutch unit’. Take the crutch away - say by playing a Craftworld that doesn’t use Wraith Constructs for fluff reasons - and the whole army collapses competitively.

I don’t think anyone would disputes that the three Primarchs and Cawl are the most likely contenders for being ‘crutch units’ from their respective forces. So for my analysis of ‘strong Codex, not weak Codex with a strong crutch’ I took them out. Then, to try and make the comparison a bit more apples to apples, I took out each of the other books’ strongest unit that I could think of. It wouldn’t be fair to compare ‘Marines with Guilliman’ to ‘Death Guard without Mortarion’ for example.

The very fact that I struggled to find a crutch to yank out from under Eldar, Guard or Tyranids shows that they probably don’t have a crutch and can stand on their own. Which is why those three sit so firmly at the top of the tree. A similar but opposite phenomenon occurred for GK - they had neither a strong Codex nor a crutch to lean on, poor buggers. It actually makes some sense that the Codexes away from the extremes are the ones you would question if they are strong-ish, or weak with a crutch.

Cawl isn't a crutch as much as the regular Dominus is so bad that you might as well play Mars with Cawl.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Army choice is as much a part of competitive 40k as list building is currently. A suboptimal army choice (e.g. Black Templars) is just as crippling as a suboptimal list or suboptimal play.

Whether or not this is desireable, it is truth. To say "Black Templars are bad" may be true, but to then say "Codex: Space Marines is bad therefore" is an error.

Some armies have more tools than others. The ones that lack tools are suboptimal for competitive play.

The 6th Edition Tyranid codex won games often, but nobody will say it's good.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Army choice is as much a part of competitive 40k as list building is currently. A suboptimal army choice (e.g. Black Templars) is just as crippling as a suboptimal list or suboptimal play.

Whether or not this is desireable, it is truth. To say "Black Templars are bad" may be true, but to then say "Codex: Space Marines is bad therefore" is an error.

Some armies have more tools than others. The ones that lack tools are suboptimal for competitive play.

That certainly is truth. It is also horrible game design. The idea that i am excluded from being competitive because I painted my dudes the colour that was shown on the 3rd Ed box set that I got them in is inexcusable.

I should probably point out that I’m not actually a competitive player. I play this game as a social hobby, and I thoroughly enjoyed taking ten Terminators to the state Masters, getting my backside handed to me by Magnus/Mortarion/Baneblade and somehow clawing my way to being 2 VP total across 6 games away from being in the top third. I have no skin in the competitive game, but I do think the discussion is interesting.

It is horrible game design.

Not sure what to say beyond "I agree."

@Slayer Fantasy - you are equivocating "good" and "competitive." It is possible for a badly written or badly designed codex to be competitive. Conversely, it is also possible for a well-designed and well-written codex to be ass in tournaments.*

That's a long thread. I'm a marine player myself and while I think that our army is far from the worst, our stratagems are really boring and or weak compared to others.

kombatwombat wrote:
That certainly is truth. It is also horrible game design. The idea that i am excluded from being competitive because I painted my dudes the colour that was shown on the 3rd Ed box set that I got them in is inexcusable.

Except since paint scheme has zero effect on what chapter tactic you must use it doesn't.

I really like many of the stratagems and find them useful. A good example is Hellfire.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Army choice is as much a part of competitive 40k as list building is currently. A suboptimal army choice (e.g. Black Templars) is just as crippling as a suboptimal list or suboptimal play.

Whether or not this is desireable, it is truth. To say "Black Templars are bad" may be true, but to then say "Codex: Space Marines is bad therefore" is an error.

Some armies have more tools than others. The ones that lack tools are suboptimal for competitive play.

Meh, I would say given that the Space Marine codex is supposed to be designed to allow you to field Black Templars if they are bad the codex is bad, just not uncompetitive. Essentially IMO if a codex is mono-build competitively it is a bad codex, that doesn't make it wholly uncompetitive.

Shadow Spectres have been a Craftworld unit for a long time. IIRC, technically Corsairs could take them, but they were not Corsairs.

I was calling out FW, Soup, and Primarchs as 3 different things this thread has been discounting. FW isn't in the codex (and Spectres are FW). Soup isn't an individual Codex (and the Chaos lists and anything with Ynnari are Soup).

I don't consider FW units added directly to codecies to be Soup, but it isn't part of the Codex. It would be relevant when ranking armies, but now we have about a dozen more that SM outperform (Orkz, Necrons, DE, etc. Even Corsairs, if you want to count them).

People have been very specific about this conversation only being about codexes (in part because it's the only way to not make SM look good).

At least as a Space Marine player you have the knowledge that you won't be forgotten for a long amount of time. If any other army was ever left in an noncompetitive state (not that SMs are), there wouldn't be much hurry to fix it.

tneva82 wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
That certainly is truth. It is also horrible game design. The idea that i am excluded from being competitive because I painted my dudes the colour that was shown on the 3rd Ed box set that I got them in is inexcusable.

Except since paint scheme has zero effect on what chapter tactic you must use it doesn't.

Well if you painted the army as Iron Hands and used Ultramarines Chapter Tactics it's kinda frowned upon.

But then what's this talk of all CWE being Alaitoc?

Or infiltrating Berzerkers? (betting most aren't painted in camo...)

Bharring wrote:
But then what's this talk of all CWE being Alaitoc?

Or infiltrating Berzerkers? (betting most aren't painted in camo...)

That's not such a big problem. It's only when an armies viability relies on a special character that it becomes a problem. Also - with eldar - alaitoc can take eldrad and it doesn't shut down any army traits. Basically Eldrad is a generic special chracter that happens to be Ulthwe. Unlike guilliman who only buffs Ultra marines.

If the books were written well, Iron Hands and Iyanden and World Eaters would all be viable. That's not an SM-only issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conversely, over half the CWE special characters can never get an Attribute or Warlord trait.

Bharring wrote:
But then what's this talk of all CWE being Alaitoc?

Or infiltrating Berzerkers? (betting most aren't painted in camo...)

Almost no Marines are painted camo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If the books were written well, Iron Hands and Iyanden and World Eaters would all be viable. That's not an SM-only issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conversely, over half the CWE special characters can never get an Attribute or Warlord trait.

World Eaters are...okay.

Read that as 'Painted as Alpha Legion', as the stratagem is Alpha Legion only. I said camo, but that was just being a little snide at the concept.

How many Berzerkers have you seen painted Alpha Legion?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
That certainly is truth. It is also horrible game design. The idea that i am excluded from being competitive because I painted my dudes the colour that was shown on the 3rd Ed box set that I got them in is inexcusable.

Except since paint scheme has zero effect on what chapter tactic you must use it doesn't.

Well if you painted the army as Iron Hands and used Ultramarines Chapter Tactics it's kinda frowned upon.

Seen thap so many times don't buy it. And if you are that worried paint kneecap in different color. New scheme for your custom chapter

 sennacherib wrote:
By the definitions found in this thread, Death Guard are a Horrible, Unworkable load of crap.

1. they have only got a few good units and not much variety since you can only take one set of chapter tactics. Terrible. Terrible.

2. The chapter tactics they do have only apply to infantry and dreads since they don’t even have bikes they can use. Ohhh. The horror.

3. The only good troop unit that they do have is the best 8n the game. Cultists are tops. Period. Pox walkers are too slow. Can’t get any work done. A terrible unit.

4. Foul blightspawn. Ok. Has some good special rules.

5. Foetid bloat drones. The only other good unit in the codex. It has that all powerful key word Fly and it’s pretty versatile.

6. Mortarion is junk. He dose t give his army 200% bonus the way that the row boat does. Just junk. Why would anyone take him.

Sorry for the sarcasm. But that’s how allmost all the space marine players in this thread would have responded. Only look at the best things others have, complain about not being the best etc. I am very much enjoying my codex despite having less than 1/3 as many unit choices as space marines get. I have units like defilers, possessed and plague marines which are frankly over costed. Terminators are too slow and the daemons not being usable in detatchment kind of stinks. However I very much enjoy playing them. I beat a Guard army yesterday. They scored 0 vp against me and surrendered at the bottom of turn 4 when I destroyed their bane blade in their deployment zone leaving them with a chimera and a nearly dead pask. They were unbeaten in our local league.

Point being. All codex have some units that are not the best. I fielded a defiler and it did pretty well. Sometimes with a good general and a little luck anything is possible. I feel like DG are in a fun place.

Yeah, this thread has had me wondering how many people have played competitive, yet non-max cheese tier games against DG. Obviously you've got things like Mortarion that will make a splash, but that book seems to have pretty strong internal balance, with a lot of viable options that can put the hurt on people. Nurgle DPs, Typhus+Poxwalkers, that crazy flamer, and those drones can all do work, and the DG psychic tree actually seems really freaking good too.

I'll make what may be an outrageous claim: the codexes are not too imbalanced when people are taking strong stuff that's not necessarily tournament cheese. At the tournament cheese level, there are imbalances. But at that level, you also can't complain that you have to rely on Guilliman/Mortarion/Magnus as a crutch because by the nature of playing pedal to the medal, you have to make sacrifices and spam the best stuff (and those things are the best stuff in the book). Tournament metas are kind of toxic by default; it's impossible for the game to be fully balanced. But codex armies have a wide variety of decent options available to them, even if they're not optimal.

Bharring wrote:
Shadow Spectres have been a Craftworld unit for a long time. IIRC, technically Corsairs could take them, but they were not Corsairs.

I was calling out FW, Soup, and Primarchs as 3 different things this thread has been discounting. FW isn't in the codex (and Spectres are FW). Soup isn't an individual Codex (and the Chaos lists and anything with Ynnari are Soup).

I don't consider FW units added directly to codecies to be Soup, but it isn't part of the Codex. It would be relevant when ranking armies, but now we have about a dozen more that SM outperform (Orkz, Necrons, DE, etc. Even Corsairs, if you want to count them).

People have been very specific about this conversation only being about codexes (in part because it's the only way to not make SM look good).

The refreshing voice of reason.
SM are strong and only going to get stronger with the points drops.

Also, Berzerker camouflage is red. Blood red, splashed with blood and more blood crusted on top under a mat of tissue and hair.

 sennacherib wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Shadow Spectres have been a Craftworld unit for a long time. IIRC, technically Corsairs could take them, but they were not Corsairs.

I was calling out FW, Soup, and Primarchs as 3 different things this thread has been discounting. FW isn't in the codex (and Spectres are FW). Soup isn't an individual Codex (and the Chaos lists and anything with Ynnari are Soup).

I don't consider FW units added directly to codecies to be Soup, but it isn't part of the Codex. It would be relevant when ranking armies, but now we have about a dozen more that SM outperform (Orkz, Necrons, DE, etc. Even Corsairs, if you want to count them).

People have been very specific about this conversation only being about codexes (in part because it's the only way to not make SM look good).

The refreshing voice of reason.
SM are strong and only going to get stronger with the points drops.

Also, Berzerker camouflage is red. Blood red, splashed with blood and more blood crusted on top under a mat of tissue and hair.

Reminds me of how I've always envisioned Space Marine scouts sneaking up on people.

"Shas-vre! That enormous human wearing brightly colored pauldrons emblazoned with Space Marine chapter regalia and carrying a bolter approaching our lines, perhaps that is a Space Marine? Should we open fire?"

"Ignore him, shas-la. Were he a space marine, he would obviously be carrying a banner proclaiming him as such and shouting loudly about it as he approached."

That was the source of my snide. But the legions (and descendants) most likely to use cammo are AL and RG. Hence why they have that trait and stratagem.

Apart from being painted black I'm not sure RG are really considered camoflauge users. I see them more as lurking in shadows and fighting at night like night lords. . AL are the only legion I believe uses camo and for them its like a religion.

Other legion wear their colors proudly and stand high like knights of yore. Ensuring that they are seen. Proclaiming their lack of fear and causing terror in the enemy.

At any rate, the core point is that, it's crappy to tell Iron Hands players to play Ultra Marines. But it's just as crappy to tell Khorne Berzerker players to play Alpha Legion. Or Uthwe to play Alaitoc.

And just as unfluffy for IH models to be UM marines as it is for Berzerker models to be infiltrating card-carrying members of Alpha Legion.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yeah, this thread has had me wondering how many people have played competitive, yet non-max cheese tier games against DG. Obviously you've got things like Mortarion that will make a splash, but that book seems to have pretty strong internal balance, with a lot of viable options that can put the hurt on people. Nurgle DPs, Typhus+Poxwalkers, that crazy flamer, and those drones can all do work, and the DG psychic tree actually seems really freaking good too.

I really haven't piped up too much in defense of DG since I haven't really been across the table from them yet. I have someone in my regular group who is building/painting right now and we've theorycrafted a number of lists, there's definitely some crazy good combos in there.

Poxwalkers at S5/T5 wounding anything in the game on a 3+ at worst doesn't seem horrible to me, especially combined with The Dead Walk Again, having them wounding any troop unit in the game on a 2+ is pretty sweet too. DG definitely has some of the best buff/debuff auras in the game. Combining some of their new vehicles with Daemon units like Epidemius or what they will have access to when the Daemon codex comes out given that all their new vehicles are Daemons has a lot of potential, I just don't think it's really been fielded a lot yet or people just don't have a full grasp of the nuances involved in playing it yet.

We also have to define what "worst" and "Bad" are in this context.

I assume people are talking competitively, what with mentions of balance and whatnot. Usually, in this context, bad = uncompetitive, and I don't believe Space Marines are uncompetitive.

If people are talking about other issues such as internal balance / fluff / grammar / other quality issues then I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm fairly sure the FW stuff is the worst though, they have more typos.

tneva82 wrote:

Seen thap so many times don't buy it. And if you are that worried paint kneecap in different color. New scheme for your custom chapter

Doing 'counts as' is fine, but you really cannot do counts as Guilliman.

I won 5 out of 6 games in our local league with DG.
They are pretty good, the codex is fun since it’s got so many characters that all do something different for your army. They are a bit clunky to play and require that you know what your doing and build with that in mind. By SM player ITT it’s a junk codex without a win button. I mean I had to play soup and all so you know....

However. Pox walkers at best can only wound lower T models on a 3+ unless you use CP and those are precious with pox walker hordes. You use 2 per turn. Makes using them for anything else a hard bargain.


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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yeah, this thread has had me wondering how many people have played competitive, yet non-max cheese tier games against DG. Obviously you've got things like Mortarion that will make a splash, but that book seems to have pretty strong internal balance, with a lot of viable options that can put the hurt on people. Nurgle DPs, Typhus+Poxwalkers, that crazy flamer, and those drones can all do work, and the DG psychic tree actually seems really freaking good too.

I really haven't piped up too much in defense of DG since I haven't really been across the table from them yet. I have someone in my regular group who is building/painting right now and we've theorycrafted a number of lists, there's definitely some crazy good combos in there.

Poxwalkers at S5/T5 wounding anything in the game on a 3+ at worst doesn't seem horrible to me, especially combined with The Dead Walk Again, having them wounding any troop unit in the game on a 2+ is pretty sweet too. DG definitely has some of the best buff/debuff auras in the game. Combining some of their new vehicles with Daemon units like Epidemius or what they will have access to when the Daemon codex comes out given that all their new vehicles are Daemons has a lot of potential, I just don't think it's really been fielded a lot yet or people just don't have a full grasp of the nuances involved in playing it yet.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Seen thap so many times don't buy it. And if you are that worried paint kneecap in different color. New scheme for your custom chapter

Doing 'counts as' is fine, but you really cannot do counts as Guilliman.

well Guillimann is bit different in that his buffs are best for ultramarines. But even presence of him doesn't really stop having 2 detachments of different chapter tactics with same models. You lose some buffing combo's but if you otherwise benefit you can bet somebody does just that to maximize efficiency.

 sennacherib wrote:
However. Pox walkers at best can only wound lower T models on a 3+ unless you use CP and those are precious with pox walker hordes. You use 2 per turn. Makes using them for anything else a hard bargain.

Base S/T 3.
Typhus to S/T 4.
Putrescent Vitality to S/T 5.
Blades of Putrescence +1 to wound.
Veterans of the Long War +1 to wound.

Unless I missed something about stacking, that's wounding anything in the game on a 3+. I'm happy to be wrong if you'd point me to the relevant rules section.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
However. Pox walkers at best can only wound lower T models on a 3+ unless you use CP and those are precious with pox walker hordes. You use 2 per turn. Makes using them for anything else a hard bargain.

Base S/T 3.
Typhus to S/T 4.
Putrescent Vitality to S/T 5.
Blades of Putrescence +1 to wound.
Veterans of the Long War +1 to wound.

Unless I missed something about stacking, that's wounding anything in the game on a 3+. I'm happy to be wrong if you'd point me to the relevant rules section.

Your good. “ unless you use a CP and those are precious......”
I only have 8 and to do cloud of flies and the dead walk costs 2 per turn. Makes using 1 for veterans of the long war a hard bargain.

 sennacherib wrote:
[color=red]
Your good. “ unless you use a CP and those are precious......”
I only have 8 and to do cloud of flies and the dead walk costs 2 per turn. Makes using 1 for veterans of the long war a hard bargain.

Fair enough, definitely not a combo to be used every turn, but potentially very effective under the right circumstances in theory. Honestly using dead walk might be easier just to move them with 7" of a conscript screen before you gun it down. But that could also set up some really creative daisy-chaining also as you add models within unit coherency to the Pox walkers and effectively extend their charge range, not to mention extending the 7" aura for dead walk.

I’ve thought about running 10 pox walkers in a rhino, charging a conscript wall with the rhino and then dropping the pox walkers off before unleashing on the conscripts. Never tried it though. Usually I just screen them with (the best unit in the game compared to anything space marine apparently) cultists. 40 cultists die and make 40 pox walkers. It can be problematic to deal with after that. If the cultists are allied (WHAT!!!) in from an iron warriors detatchment with a Tzeentch marked daemonprince (best unit in the game) backing them, you can give them 5++ save and they are fearless. Pretty nasty in theory.

As a Crimson Fists player, it sucks pretty bad that my Warlord Trait, Chapter Tactics, and Strategem all blow. Being barely above Grey Knights and Ad Mech (and even that is questionable) is just terrible. Yay for bottom tier.

But your not technically the worst!

Bharring wrote:
Read that as 'Painted as Alpha Legion', as the stratagem is Alpha Legion only. I said camo, but that was just being a little snide at the concept.

How many Berzerkers have you seen painted Alpha Legion?

This is actually a good question, as this is the first time PA Cult Marines have been available to any Legion not dedicated to a specific God.

I've seen two whole squads done so far. One of them where they were in the typical Alpha Legion colors, and another where they were just red with the appropriate Shoulder Pads. However the rest of that guy's army has all the Cult Marines like that.

In the gallery here we've had Alpha Legion Berserker Marines popped up.


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tneva82 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Seen thap so many times don't buy it. And if you are that worried paint kneecap in different color. New scheme for your custom chapter

Doing 'counts as' is fine, but you really cannot do counts as Guilliman.

well Guillimann is bit different in that his buffs are best for ultramarines. But even presence of him doesn't really stop having 2 detachments of different chapter tactics with same models. You lose some buffing combo's but if you otherwise benefit you can bet somebody does just that to maximize efficiency.

1. Play Ultramarines Chapter Tactics
2. Can't really paint up Rowboat that way
3. Nah just use multiple detachments

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Read that as 'Painted as Alpha Legion', as the stratagem is Alpha Legion only. I said camo, but that was just being a little snide at the concept.

How many Berzerkers have you seen painted Alpha Legion?

This is actually a good question, as this is the first time PA Cult Marines have been available to any Legion not dedicated to a specific God.

I've seen two whole squads done so far. One of them where they were in the typical Alpha Legion colors, and another where they were just red with the appropriate Shoulder Pads. However the rest of that guy's army has all the Cult Marines like that.

In the gallery here we've had Alpha Legion Berserker Marines popped up.

As most Chaos legions aren't a cohesive force anymore and most of the Chaos Marines Forces are just a bunch of guys from all the legions it makes all sense to give them free access to all kind and type of Legion rules.

If I have a Custom Chaos Warband I can use whatever rules I want to represent their fighting stile (I know theres no Sucessors Chapter like rules in the Chaos Codex, but just see the Vectoriums of Death Guard). Khorne Berzerkers, for example, haven't been a cohesive force in thousands of years. They are small groups that band together to bigger space marine forces, so it makes sense for them to take whatever tactics are common to the warband of the Chaos Lord that has "hired" them.

Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines and Noise Marines can be from different origins. Original members of the god-specific legions, created by the Black Legion, or "bought" to the Black Legion for other Chaos Lord to add them to their warband.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player, it sucks pretty bad that my Warlord Trait, Chapter Tactics, and Strategem all blow. Being barely above Grey Knights and Ad Mech (and even that is questionable) is just terrible. Yay for bottom tier.

I feel for you man. I really do. This thread is for you.

Oh the topic of crimson fists. Have you run Kantor with an army of dreads? That sounds like it could be fun casually.


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 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Read that as 'Painted as Alpha Legion', as the stratagem is Alpha Legion only. I said camo, but that was just being a little snide at the concept.

How many Berzerkers have you seen painted Alpha Legion?

This is actually a good question, as this is the first time PA Cult Marines have been available to any Legion not dedicated to a specific God.

I've seen two whole squads done so far. One of them where they were in the typical Alpha Legion colors, and another where they were just red with the appropriate Shoulder Pads. However the rest of that guy's army has all the Cult Marines like that.

In the gallery here we've had Alpha Legion Berserker Marines popped up.

As most Chaos legions aren't a cohesive force anymore and most of the Chaos Marines Forces are just a bunch of guys from all the legions it makes all sense to give them free access to all kind and type of Legion rules.

If I have a Custom Chaos Warband I can use whatever rules I want to represent their fighting stile (I know theres no Sucessors Chapter like rules in the Chaos Codex, but just see the Vectoriums of Death Guard). Khorne Berzerkers, for example, haven't been a cohesive force in thousands of years. They are small groups that band together to bigger space marine forces, so it makes sense for them to take whatever tactics are common to the warband of the Chaos Lord that has "hired" them.

Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines and Noise Marines can be from different origins. Original members of the god-specific legions, created by the Black Legion, or "bought" to the Black Legion for other Chaos Lord to add them to their warband.

Yeah exactly - chaos mixing alignments is actually expected and it's always been that way. Space marines are supposed to be played as a single chapter - they are supposed to be uniform - It's asking a lot of a marine player to paint their army different colors to represent different chapters. And painting Guilliman anything but blue is pretty heretical. So having restrictions base on chapter for a crucial ability like the ability to enter from reserves and pinning it to ravengaurd. Or having Guilliman be the power house of the codex is really really poor design.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player, it sucks pretty bad that my Warlord Trait, Chapter Tactics, and Strategem all blow. Being barely above Grey Knights and Ad Mech (and even that is questionable) is just terrible. Yay for bottom tier.

I feel for you man. I really do. This thread is for you.

Oh the topic of crimson fists. Have you run Kantor with an army of dreads? That sounds like it could be fun casually.

No I have not. And honestly, if it wasn't for Kantor, I would probably be running Ultramarines tactics. But I love Kantor. He is one of my favorite models. And I want to play Crimson Fists. It just sucks that they have the worst rules of any of the Space Marines (besides maybe Grey Knights). They are deathly in need of some Errata to fix them.

It doesn't help that my other main army is Ad Mech.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player, it sucks pretty bad that my Warlord Trait, Chapter Tactics, and Strategem all blow. Being barely above Grey Knights and Ad Mech (and even that is questionable) is just terrible. Yay for bottom tier.

The other Sons of Dorn share your pain.

From the point of view of Black Templars, you get a better Warlord Trait and Relic but a worse Chapter Tactic and Stratagem. I think we edge ahead of you there as the Chapter Tactic affects more units. Helbrecht and Kantor are a wash, but we do get the Emperor’s Champion and Cenobytes. But then, we have the curse of being an assault army in a Codex balanced around powerful shooting, so I think in the end we land in a similar situation to you guys.

These are dark days for the Sons of Dorn...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah exactly - chaos mixing alignments is actually expected and it's always been that way.

For a value of 'always' that ignores the legion and god specific lists that introduced the current iteration of chaos armies to the world, and the books that included them.

So perhaps 'post 3rd edition retcon' is more accurate?

My apologies to all the fluff minded SM players. I hope CA improves your gaming experience.

As a chaos player I have very little sympathy to SM players shinning about not being the best but for those non hyper comparative fluff minded gamers I feel you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Play Ultramarines Chapter Tactics
2. Can't really paint up Rowboat that way
3. Nah just use multiple detachments

Ummm I said multiple detachments. One detachment of ultramarines, one detachment of whatever you feel gives more efficiency than you would gian by having more ultramarines to buff. Whole army could still look like ultramarines though.

And as for painting up Guillimann...What does that matter? If you prefer say imperial fist colour scheme you can paint Guillimann like that as well. Rulewise you still have to use ultramarine tactic for that detachment(though other detachments can be whatever you wish. Like white scars if you feel so inclined) but painting wise whatever suits you.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Play Ultramarines Chapter Tactics
2. Can't really paint up Rowboat that way
3. Nah just use multiple detachments

Ummm I said multiple detachments. One detachment of ultramarines, one detachment of whatever you feel gives more efficiency than you would gian by having more ultramarines to buff. Whole army could still look like ultramarines though.

And as for painting up Guillimann...What does that matter? If you prefer say imperial fist colour scheme you can paint Guillimann like that as well. Rulewise you still have to use ultramarine tactic for that detachment(though other detachments can be whatever you wish. Like white scars if you feel so inclined) but painting wise whatever suits you.

You can pretty easily paint your dudes black and say they're Iron Hands but count as Ultramarines for mechanics, but painting Guilliman black and saying he's Ferrus Manus is a bit more of a stretch and I'm not gonna blame people for being uncomfortable with doing that with their collection.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can pretty easily paint your dudes black and say they're Iron Hands but count as Ultramarines for mechanics, but painting Guilliman black and saying he's Ferrus Manus is a bit more of a stretch and I'm not gonna blame people for being uncomfortable with doing that with their collection.

We don\t have rules for Ferrus Magnus so pretty pointless. It's just iron hand coloured Guillimann within detachment using Ultramarine chapter tactics. Why claim anything about Ferrus Magnus?

Now if we would get Ferrus Magnus then that would be different. Though technically by the book it would still be okay to use him as Ferrus Magnus. Albeit THAT would often be out of many tournaments since they still generally require WYSIWYG models which Guillimann as Ferrus Magnus(when there would be official Ferrus Magnus model) most definitely isn't.

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can pretty easily paint your dudes black and say they're Iron Hands but count as Ultramarines for mechanics, but painting Guilliman black and saying he's Ferrus Manus is a bit more of a stretch and I'm not gonna blame people for being uncomfortable with doing that with their collection.

We don\t have rules for Ferrus Magnus so pretty pointless. It's just iron hand coloured Guillimann within detachment using Ultramarine chapter tactics. Why claim anything about Ferrus Magnus?

Now if we would get Ferrus Magnus then that would be different. Though technically by the book it would still be okay to use him as Ferrus Magnus. Albeit THAT would often be out of many tournaments since they still generally require WYSIWYG models which Guillimann as Ferrus Magnus(when there would be official Ferrus Magnus model) most definitely isn't.

You can claim that those are just very very very very very dirty Ultramarines

tneva82 wrote:

And as for painting up Guillimann...What does that matter? If you prefer say imperial fist colour scheme you can paint Guillimann like that as well.

Because fluff is a thing and some of us care about it. What the feth is this Imperial Fists Guilliman supposed to be?

You can counts-as most marine characters, as ultimately they're just marines with some gear and fighting style, and there could easily be other individuals with similar gear and tactics. You cannot do that with Guilliman, unless you're completely rewriting the fluff and say that Dorn has returned or Cawl now has ability to clone Primarchs something. (Not that I'd really oppose people doing that, the official fluff has gone to hell in in a handbasked anyway.)

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

And as for painting up Guillimann...What does that matter? If you prefer say imperial fist colour scheme you can paint Guillimann like that as well.

Because fluff is a thing and some of us care about it. What the feth is this Imperial Fists Guilliman supposed to be?

You can counts-as most marine characters, as ultimately they're just marines with some gear and fighting style, and there could easily be other individuals with similar gear and tactics. You cannot do that with Guilliman, unless you're completely rewriting the fluff and say that Dorn has returned or Cawl now has ability to clone Primarchs something. (Not that I'd really oppose people doing that, the official fluff has gone to hell in in a handbasked anyway.)

Yes and that's up to you. Wouldn't play it like that myself but don't expect others to follow same idea as I. It's legal and as it is 40k doesn't even have official WYSIWYG requirement let alone paint job requirements!

So it's up to what player wants. So if he wants Guillimann painted in Alpha Legion colours then that's up to him.

tneva82 wrote:


Yes and that's up to you. Wouldn't play it like that myself but don't expect others to follow same idea as I. It's legal and as it is 40k doesn't even have official WYSIWYG requirement let alone paint job requirements!

So it's up to what player wants. So if he wants Guillimann painted in Alpha Legion colours then that's up to him.

Yes, but the whole original point was that some people don't want to use Guilliman for very good reasons*, and thus it sucks that he is the linchpin of any remotely competitive marine list.

(*For example many fluff minded players do not want butcher the fluff to include additional Primarchs and if they don't want to field 'actual' Guilliman (in-fluff sens) they they're fethed.)

The argument that "just paint your guys like X and just say they're Y" doesn't change the fact that X is bad.

If I want to play X, I should be able to play X just as well as Y.

Otherwise, you may as well say "Well, I know Tau are bad, but what if you take your Tau models and play them as Eldar instead?"
Tau are still bad.

Some people don't just want to play the same list everyone else does, with the same <Chapter> and suchlike. Not all Ultramarine players want to take Guilliman, Razorbacks and Stormravens. Not all Raven Guard players want to take Helblasters. Not all Artilley-guard players want to be Catachans or Cadians.

I get that most warbands are mix'n'match these days.

I was talking about rules that are explicitly for Alpha Legion. Possibly warbands that fight like them, that's an argument I think I'd agree with.

But we're still talking about Berzerkers. Infiltrating. Berzerkers. The dedication and frenzy required to not just be a CC-focused CSM, but be a true Berzerker, could be present in guys from Alpha Legion, or who fight on the side of guys from Alpha Legion (or those who learned from them). But, fluffwise, there is *no way* Berzerkers are as quiet and sneaky as Alpha Legion or Raven Guard Marines.

And that's before discussing Rubrics. Sure, AL Marines could become Zerkers or Plague Marines. But not Rubrics. Every single Rubric was a Thousand Sons marine. And that's not some minor fluff point. Fighting on the same side, yes. Fighting in the same style? A stretch. But being Alpha Legion? Or some descendant? No.

So having an 'Alpha Legion' of any Cult Troop you want be part of the same army as AL? Sure. Same detatchment? Getting a little beardy. Using the Trait? Strained. Infiltrating? Outright bonkers.

All that is per fluff, not rules or balance.

(Although the AL trait and strat suddenly becomes much more balanced if you were to exclude those dedicated to other gods.)

I agree that saying 'Just play UM' is bad. I just don't see how it's worse than saying 'Just play AL' or 'Just play Alaitoc'.

Voss wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah exactly - chaos mixing alignments is actually expected and it's always been that way.

For a value of 'always' that ignores the legion and god specific lists that introduced the current iteration of chaos armies to the world, and the books that included them.

So perhaps 'post 3rd edition retcon' is more accurate?

Nothing has ever prevented you from taking berserkers and Plague marines in the same army. Has it? It's never even been uncool to have an unaligned faction.

But nothing has allowed them to be taken as 'Alpha Legion' specifically before, has it? Or at least not recently.

Although Voss is talking about 2nd/3rd ed changes - before my time.

Bharring wrote:
But nothing has allowed them to be taken as 'Alpha Legion' specifically before, has it? Or at least not recently.

Although Voss is talking about 2nd/3rd ed changes - before my time.

Alpha legion/Iron warriors/Black legion/Night Lords - they have all always had access to the entire CSM codex as far as I know. Berserkers have always just been an elite choice. It's not like daemonkin who only have access to khorne stuff. If they come out with Daemonkin as a codex and it's better to play bezerkers as alpha legion CSM you will have a point but right now I am just not following.

What are you talking about?

There were no rules to make a force Alpha Legion until the most recent Codex - unless you go back several editions.

You could call them Alpha Legion, but there was no rules basis for that.

CSM didn't get the toys Loyalists got.

Bharring wrote:
What are you talking about?

There were no rules to make a force Alpha Legion until the most recent Codex - unless you go back several editions.

You could call them Alpha Legion, but there was no rules basis for that.

CSM didn't get the toys Loyalists got.

Alpha Legion has been around for several editions, their specific rules when they came out made them the only ones with access to Cultists at the time. Iron Warriors got an extra Heavy Support, Night Lords got an extra Fast Attack, Word Bearers had special rules for Daemons that I don't recall.

As for AL Berzerkers, they are clearly inferior to World Eaters Berzerkers, or at least different, they don't have the Butcher's Nails implants, consequently, you could easily make a fluff argument that they aren't as unhinged as World Eaters. Regardless, fluff isn't really an objective argument against their inclusion in Alpha Legion.

Did I miss the AL rules in 6E and 7E? I don't recall them. I know there were Legions in the 3.5 Dex, but AL didn't have the -1-to-hit attribute or the Infiltrate stratagem.

I thought there was an AL artifact, but I don't recall them having a Chapter Tactic or suppliment like Black Legion.

Aren't Berzerkers cult troops, dedicated to Khorne? As in, 'Blood for the blood god!' not 'Sneaky for the sneak god!'? Sure, they'd be less crazed than the original WE Zerkers, but by what logic is a blood-crazed maniac more stealthy than the average Warband's CSM? More stealthy than a Tau Pathfinder or UM Scout squad?

The original point was lost pages ago, so perhaps I should try to redirect back to the point:
If Iron Hands shouldn't need to repaint or proxy as UM, why should World Eaters need to repaint or proxy as AL?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The argument that "just paint your guys like X and just say they're Y" doesn't change the fact that X is bad.

If I want to play X, I should be able to play X just as well as Y.

Otherwise, you may as well say "Well, I know Tau are bad, but what if you take your Tau models and play them as Eldar instead?"
Tau are still bad.

Some people don't just want to play the same list everyone else does, with the same <Chapter> and suchlike. Not all Ultramarine players want to take Guilliman, Razorbacks and Stormravens. Not all Raven Guard players want to take Helblasters. Not all Artilley-guard players want to be Catachans or Cadians.

I mean, you can either judge balance by top-level tournament results, in which case you're judging based on frequency, number of different units, placing....and ignoring the lower tier stuff.

Or, you can judge based on casual play, and look at depth available, which factions are good, how unique they are, etc. In which case, you've got a much harder time providing "proof" that say, codex Space Marines is better than codex: admech or something. It's silly to use data involving top tournament placings and construct an argument involving casual play, though.

I think it's easy to make the argument that there are more useful Legions in casual tier play than there are useful chapters of marines, but you're going to have a hard time arguing that Marines have less viable subfactions/units as a percentage than, say, Admech, who has exactly two good options (the Raven Guard clones and Mars) that are even close to as good as Salamanders, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, even stuff like White Scars or Imperial Fists that are generally considered crappier. The only chapter or legion that approaches Ryza level worthless is Word Bearers.

Bharring wrote:
Did I miss the AL rules in 6E and 7E? I don't recall them. I know there were Legions in the 3.5 Dex, but AL didn't have the -1-to-hit attribute or the Infiltrate stratagem.

I thought there was an AL artifact, but I don't recall them having a Chapter Tactic or suppliment like Black Legion.

Aren't Berzerkers cult troops, dedicated to Khorne? As in, 'Blood for the blood god!' not 'Sneaky for the sneak god!'? Sure, they'd be less crazed than the original WE Zerkers, but by what logic is a blood-crazed maniac more stealthy than the average Warband's CSM? More stealthy than a Tau Pathfinder or UM Scout squad?

Chaos was horrible 5th-7th edition as far as Legions go, I barely played those editions they were so horrible, so you may be correct on that count.

As far as sneaky Berzerkers and all that, I tend to think of it this way, is a serial killer who sneaks into people's houses, kills them and bathes in their blood any less dedicated to the lord of murder? I would say no, he's just a different kind of killer. So I tend to think of AL Berzerkers like sneaky serial killer psychopaths rather than screaming hordes of madmen.

That would be an interesting take on Zerkers, but isn't that more like a regular Marine? Isn't that sneaky psycho not a blood crased berzerker (small-B)?

If I were doing AL Zerkers, I think I'd do counts-as with your idea. Basically, the archetype of Night Lords.

All Khorne-marked Marines are serial killer psychopaths. Some are sneakier than others. Zerkers, I thought, were supposed to be the screaming madmen who thrash with anything at just about anything.

(Chaos was really terrible for Legion players. They called it Codex:Helldrake for a reason.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fluff can vary on exactly what Khorne wants, to some degree. All say he wants blood. Most say he wants combat and frenzy and brutality. Some say he respects honorable combat. I'm sure he'd rather see murder than not see murder, but it's not his core.

Khaine - which may have been an aspect of Khorne - was also the god of Murder. So there is that angle.

Bharring wrote:
That would be an interesting take on Zerkers, but isn't that more like a regular Marine? Isn't that sneaky psycho not a blood crased berzerker (small-B)?

Well all Chapters and Legions carry certain personality traits and tendencies as a result of their geneseed. The Alpha Legion traits tend towards stealth and infiltration, Night Lords thrill in causing terror, etc.

Honestly, the only one that really feels out of place is Rubric Marines, but honestly, I've always hated that piece of fluff, 1st edition Thousand Sons were not Rubric, but they got more mutations than any other legion, so they had the highest chance of just becoming Chaos Spawn. But we're 25+ years removed from that, so I'll get over it.

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Yes and that's up to you. Wouldn't play it like that myself but don't expect others to follow same idea as I. It's legal and as it is 40k doesn't even have official WYSIWYG requirement let alone paint job requirements!

So it's up to what player wants. So if he wants Guillimann painted in Alpha Legion colours then that's up to him.

Yes, but the whole original point was that some people don't want to use Guilliman for very good reasons*, and thus it sucks that he is the linchpin of any remotely competitive marine list.

(*For example many fluff minded players do not want butcher the fluff to include additional Primarchs and if they don't want to field 'actual' Guilliman (in-fluff sens) they they're fethed.)

I'll still argue that Space Marines can be quite competetive without Guilliman. The Chapter Master plus Lieutenant gives you 75ish percent the Guilliman buff, at less than half the cost, while also filling your HQ slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The argument that "just paint your guys like X and just say they're Y" doesn't change the fact that X is bad.

If I want to play X, I should be able to play X just as well as Y.

Otherwise, you may as well say "Well, I know Tau are bad, but what if you take your Tau models and play them as Eldar instead?"
Tau are still bad.

Some people don't just want to play the same list everyone else does, with the same <Chapter> and suchlike. Not all Ultramarine players want to take Guilliman, Razorbacks and Stormravens. Not all Raven Guard players want to take Helblasters. Not all Artilley-guard players want to be Catachans or Cadians.

I mean, you can either judge balance by top-level tournament results, in which case you're judging based on frequency, number of different units, placing....and ignoring the lower tier stuff.

Or, you can judge based on casual play, and look at depth available, which factions are good, how unique they are, etc. In which case, you've got a much harder time providing "proof" that say, codex Space Marines is better than codex: admech or something. It's silly to use data involving top tournament placings and construct an argument involving casual play, though.

I think it's easy to make the argument that there are more useful Legions in casual tier play than there are useful chapters of marines, but you're going to have a hard time arguing that Marines have less viable subfactions/units as a percentage than, say, Admech, who has exactly two good options (the Raven Guard clones and Mars) that are even close to as good as Salamanders, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, even stuff like White Scars or Imperial Fists that are generally considered crappier. The only chapter or legion that approaches Ryza level worthless is Word Bearers.

I also agree with this sentiment. Top level tournaments are fine to argue about, but they represent 1% (probably less) of the warhammer play experience.

What most people want is a codex viable enough to do reasonably well in their local meta.

If your a total adherent to fluff then Berzerkers are World Eaters. Period. They may have defected and joined warbands etc, changed their paint jobs some like the hounds of abandon but either way a berzerker is a world eater. They have the nails.

Iother marines can fall to Khorne and become blood crazed. In one of The nightlords books a nightlord falls to Khorne. He keeps it hidden from his brethren and sneaks out to satiate his thirst, ending up blaming it on another of the same warband. He has fallen to Khorne but is not a berzerker.

I think any legion can field amazing specialist assault troops. You can use berzerker rules to simulate this however they will never be berzerkers and imho should not be painted or represented as such. A true world eater berzerker after all is a Troop choice, and has an extra attack on the charge because WE. I feel like a nighlords berzerker could be any midnight clad warrior with a chain ax and the pointy bat ear helm etc. you probably should have a Khornate symbol somewhere on each model or at least carried aloft by the unit. That’s just me. I am in the process of kit bashing some Berzerkers mixed with bits from Space wolves so I can play them as Dark Wolves. This allows me to use whatever legion bonus I like without violating fluff.

But, if they are painted red and brass, they are world Eaters. If they are ultra marines and you want to use them as spacewolves the fluff part of me cries foul. Same with a blood angel player fielding the row boat. It just dosnt feel right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That would be an interesting take on Zerkers, but isn't that more like a regular Marine? Isn't that sneaky psycho not a blood crased berzerker (small-B)?

Well all Chapters and Legions carry certain personality traits and tendencies as a result of their geneseed. The Alpha Legion traits tend towards stealth and infiltration, Night Lords thrill in causing terror, etc.

Honestly, the only one that really feels out of place is Rubric Marines, but honestly, I've always hated that piece of fluff, 1st edition Thousand Sons were not Rubric, but they got more mutations than any other legion, so they had the highest chance of just becoming Chaos Spawn. But we're 25+ years removed from that, so I'll get over it.

I just read Reece’s Space Marines article on BoLS. I never thought you could make a brigade detachment worth a damn. His list is solid. Granted, Raptors’ Chapter Tactics and Lias are strong. I am starting to change my mind about the Space Marine Dex’s competitiveness. I think it is viable for now. But I do agree with others that it will “age” poorly. I think the problem with Bobby G/assback spam is that everybody expects it and knows how to play against it. Who expects Thunderfire Cannons with Tremor Shells and Scout Bikes?

 sennacherib wrote:
If your a total adherent to fluff then Berzerkers are World Eaters. Period. They may have defected and joined warbands etc, changed their paint jobs some like the hounds of abandon but either way a berzerker is a world eater. They have the nails.

Iother marines can fall to Khorne and become blood crazed. In one of The nightlords books a nightlord falls to Khorne. He keeps it hidden from his brethren and sneaks out to satiate his thirst, ending up blaming it on another of the same warband. He has fallen to Khorne but is not a berzerker.

I think any legion can field amazing specialist assault troops. You can use berzerker rules to simulate this however they will never be berzerkers and imho should not be painted or represented as such. A true world eater berzerker after all is a Troop choice, and has an extra attack on the charge because WE. I feel like a nighlords berzerker could be any midnight clad warrior with a chain ax and the pointy bat ear helm etc. you probably should have a Khornate symbol somewhere on each model or at least carried aloft by the unit. That’s just me. I am in the process of kit bashing some Berzerkers mixed with bits from Space wolves so I can play them as Dark Wolves. This allows me to use whatever legion bonus I like without violating fluff.

But, if they are painted red and brass, they are world Eaters. If they are ultra marines and you want to use them as spacewolves the fluff part of me cries foul. Same with a blood angel player fielding the row boat. It just dosnt feel right.

I get your point and more or less agree, I tend to be more rules > fluff, and at this point I have so many CSM models painted in so many different schemes, I just field stuff at this point. The way it's presented these days I think is that the various legions have cult factions within them, but are not specifically from the cult-dedicated chapters, which is obviously a deviation from the original fluff as presented in earlier codices. It's a deviation/evolution of fluff I'm ok with, when the fluff limits the mechanics I am all for changing the fluff.

Actually the Black Legion can create from 0 their own Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Rubrics and Plague Marines.

So a Khorne Berzerker can be a original World Eather, a Black Legionary created post-Heresy, or a chaos marine created by someone like Fabius Bile, for example.
One example provided by GW was about renegade sorcerers that know to make lessers versions of the Ahriman's Rubric, to create rubric marines that they "sell" as bodyguards to Chaos Lords.

And personally I'm too in the camp that rules have names attached for commodity and that they can represent whatever you like as long as you are clear in what weapons they have, etc... (Horus Heresy has this with the rules for Ogryns auxilia. They said that it can represent from reptiles, to xenos monsters, etc...) . Why can't my Poxwalkers be in fact Skeletons raised by magic by a Tzeentch Sorcerer? Or my Hellbrute some kind of alien mostrosity my Chaos Lord has corrupted to Chaos and slaved for his personal use.

Median Trace wrote:
I just read Reece’s Space Marines article on BoLS. I never thought you could make a brigade detachment worth a damn. His list is solid. Granted, Raptors’ Chapter Tactics and Lias are strong. I am starting to change my mind about the Space Marine Dex’s competitiveness. I think it is viable for now. But I do agree with others that it will “age” poorly. I think the problem with Bobby G/assback spam is that everybody expects it and knows how to play against it. Who expects Thunderfire Cannons with Tremor Shells and Scout Bikes?

No one expect thunderfire cannons because they are terrible.

Median Trace wrote:
I just read Reece’s Space Marines article on BoLS. I never thought you could make a brigade detachment worth a damn. His list is solid. Granted, Raptors’ Chapter Tactics and Lias are strong. I am starting to change my mind about the Space Marine Dex’s competitiveness. I think it is viable for now. But I do agree with others that it will “age” poorly. I think the problem with Bobby G/assback spam is that everybody expects it and knows how to play against it. Who expects Thunderfire Cannons with Tremor Shells and Scout Bikes?

What article?

And raptors chapter tactics?
When did FW chapters get tactics exactly?

I didn’t think that black legion could do that though Abaddon is the chosen of all four chaos gods so that makes sense to a degree. I’m a adherent to Nurgle so I can say that real plague marines do arise outside of the death Guard, though they are rare.

If I wanted to play rouboutille (sp)? And I played iron hands or some such, I would convert a suitable iron hands version. Perhaps a dreadnaught combined with bits from skitari or ad mech minis. As long as it was the same size, had the same weapon load out and was intricate enough and had a good amount of effort invested. Jobs a good un.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Median Trace wrote:
I just read Reece’s Space Marines article on BoLS. I never thought you could make a brigade detachment worth a damn. His list is solid. Granted, Raptors’ Chapter Tactics and Lias are strong. I am starting to change my mind about the Space Marine Dex’s competitiveness. I think it is viable for now. But I do agree with others that it will “age” poorly. I think the problem with Bobby G/assback spam is that everybody expects it and knows how to play against it. Who expects Thunderfire Cannons with Tremor Shells and Scout Bikes?

What article?

And raptors chapter tactics?
When did FW chapters get tactics exactly?

They use Ravenguard CT, and Lias gives you free infiltration for units, and re-rolls to hit.

Yea, I know what lias does. he's been a major pain since ever.

So getting my paws on the SM codex and reading a bit - forgeworld chapters just use their primogenitor's tactics, apperantly can use the stratagem, but no warlord trait or relic? I'm getting it right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Median Trace wrote:
I just read Reece’s Space Marines article on BoLS. I never thought you could make a brigade detachment worth a damn. His list is solid. Granted, Raptors’ Chapter Tactics and Lias are strong. I am starting to change my mind about the Space Marine Dex’s competitiveness. I think it is viable for now. But I do agree with others that it will “age” poorly. I think the problem with Bobby G/assback spam is that everybody expects it and knows how to play against it. Who expects Thunderfire Cannons with Tremor Shells and Scout Bikes?

No one expect thunderfire cannons because they are terrible.

Did you even read his battle reports? They more than carried their weight with CP support.

I think Lias is really a Night Lord.