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Post by: Hellfury
Taken from Warseer who in turn has taken this from Bolter and Chainsword.
Here’s another attempt to summarize the rumors surrounding the new Blood Angel rules reported for release in the next few months. Again, please take this for what it’s worth. Note also that I have removed those rumors that seem to have been discounted or failed to receive further confirmation. Publication - The new rules will be included with the June/July (possibly May/June) issues of White Dwarf – pretty well confirmed by US WD 328 to be included in issues 329 & 330. * The first issue will include the Fluff and the second issue will include the army list.
- The rules will be available for free download sometime thereafter.
- These rules are a temporary “update” not a full codex release.
FluffChanges - The new fluff will emphasize the BA’s progressing descent into madness and the degenerative effects of their gene flaw.
Army Special Rule Changes - BA infantry will no longer automatically receive the Furious Charge special rule.
- The Black Rage will no longer force mandatory movement, i.e. the 1/6 chance of running D6” forward.
- BA infantry units will receive the Combat Squads special rule.
Death Company Changes - DC are no longer mandatory for all BA armies.
- Max DC squad size is 10 models.
- 1 DC marine can be added to the squad for every Honour Guard, Vet Assault, Assault, Terminator, Tactical and Devastator squad in the army (either 5 or 10 man strong, doesn’t matter).
- Extra DC can also be added for an additional point cost.
- The infantry unit that contributes a marine to the Death Company will not have to “lose a model” to do so.
- DC marines will not be able to have power weapons but all will gain rending attacks in close combat.
- For an additional point cost, the DC squad can be given jump packs, a Rhino or a Drop Pod.
- DC will be forced to move towards and assault the nearest enemy unit unless a Chaplain or SHP is within 6”, this rule is aka the “Black Rage.”
Overcharged Engines - Will be included on Rhinos and Baal Predators
- When employed on a 4+ the engines will make these tanks count as Fast vehicles, moving up to 18”.
Changes to Special Characters and Units - Corbuolo will grant Furious Charge to all infantry models within 12”.
- BA Librarians will gain a new psychic power that will increase an infantry unit’s movement to 12” and jump infantry unit’s move to include a turbo boost.
- Mephiston will be able to use his Force Weapon and another Psychic Power in the same turn.
Army List Changes - Vet Assault units can employ Jump Packs or Rhinos.
- They have 2 attacks on their stat line.
- The can take up to 3 powered CC weapons: power weapons, lightning claws or power fists.
- Honour Guard will include a “tech adept” character along with the other choices.
(No additional information there.) - Assault Marines will be a Troop or Fast choice for all BA armies.
- Assault squads will alternately be able to take Rhinos or Drop Pods (like their DA equivalents)
- All Dreadnoughts will be Elite choices.
- Scouts will be an Elite choice with no special CC limitation, i.e. they can all be equipped with the full assortment of scout options.
- BA Whirlwinds will include incendiary rounds.
New Models? - Some character models will be re-released.
- There will not be any new models or plastic sprues. (yet...)
UPDATE!
This was also gleaned from warseer and posted elsewhere in this thread. I am reposting it here for the sake of reference.
Posted By blood angel on 04/22/2007 2:33 AM Taken from warseer. There was also a link in the post that seemed to show the WD article. Until i get the issue in my hands and can read it all myself i'm taking everything with the appropriate grains of salt but here goes.. Im not gonna post the picture here so click on the link to see the cover.. You'll notice it's not taken on a camera phone or anything, I actually have the whole 2 part codex
I dont think BA are gonna get another codex based on the wording there if you can read it.. As it says this is the official codex, not update
Wargear changes
Exsanguinator - Description replaced with current narthecium rules. Nothing additional
Terminator armor - Same except no longer gives +1A (Same as new DA and there are no terminator honors, which means characters are at -1A)
Servo arm - Same as Codex: Sm but IT IS NOT A POWER FIST.. It "strikes at I1 at S8 with no armor save" Therefore, cover/grenades affects it
Special CHaracters
Commander Dante - 200pts
WS6, BS5, S4, T4, W3, I5, A4, LD10 SV 2+
Rights of battle
Inspiring: All friendly BA models within 12" count as having preferring enemy (Vs anyone)
Equipment: Artificer armor, iron halo, jump pack, frag and krak grenades
Axe of Mortalis - Master crafted power weapon
Death mask of sanguinius - All enemy models within 6" are at -1WS and -1BS
Perdition Pistol - Metal gun that counts as pistol in CC
If dante is included in the army then a standard bearer may carry the BA chapter banner which gives all benefits of the normal standard and also gives the unit +1A. +15pts
Tycho - Normal stats, has iron halo and artificer armor and basically is same as old edition.. IE sucks. 110pts and rights of battle
Mephiston - 225pts
WS 6, BS5, S5, T5, W3, I6, A4, LD10 SV 2+
Fearless, Feel no pain
Lord of Death - Mephiston has all 3 psychic powers and can use each one of them and his force weapon once each player turn, rather than being limited as are other librarians. He may not use the same power more than once per turn
Wargear: Artificer armor, force weapon, plasma pistol, psychic hood, frag and krak grenades
LIRBARIAN POWERS
Might of Heros - same
Wings of Sanguinius - The librarian (only him) may move as a jump pack, even with terminator armor. If on a bike he counts as moving as a jetbike
Transfixing Glare - Used in the assault phase. If successful then any enemy model in BTB contact must take a LD test. If failed the model may not attack and will be hit automatically by any CC attacks directed against them. Enemy models with a LD value cannot be affected
Brother corbulo - Same as old edition except 3wounds 100pts
no power weapon and has exsanguinator and the red grail
Red Grail : All BA units within 12" At the start of one of its assault phases receives furious charge for that turn. In addition it gives corbulo a 4+ inv save
Chaplain Lamartes - 125pts Same stats as current 3W chaplain
Has the Death mask which gives all enemy models within 6" -1LD
Non-named characters (all have 2w and LD9)
Librarian - 120pts
Has rights of battle
Options: Plasma pistol, stormbolter, combi weapons, melta bombs, bike. Can replace ALL wargear for terminator armor, storm bolter, force weapon and psychic hood for 25pts.
NO OPTION for inv save except with Term armor
Cannot take Transfixing glare but comes with other two powers as standard
Chaplain - 100pts
Same options as librarian but may take a power fist and a jump pack
Company Captain (3W and L10) - 100pts
Comes with Iron Halo
Rights of Battle
Options: Power weapon, 1 or 2 LCs, Thunder hammer, Power fist, jump pack, storm bolter, combi weapons, melta bombs
OR may take Term Armor WITH Thunderhammer + Stormshield, 2x LC or Stormbolter + Power fist/Power weapon all for only +25PTs
Honor guard - 125pts
Does not take up spot on force org chart AND IS NOT A BODYGUARD. They deploy and operate independently. May include 1 for each IC in army
2A now and come with frag/krak grenades
5 marines (max)
Jump packs +25pts (entire squad) (30pts per model basically)
Options: (a ton. Think of this as a imp guard command squad in terms of options. 2 guys can have this, 2 can have that.. etc).
2x Plasma Pistol
2x Powerfist/weapon
2x Flamer/melta/plasma
Sanguinary Priest for +20pts with exsanguinator
Tech Adept +30pt (No servo arm btw). Power weapon and blessing of omnissiah rule
Standard bearer +10pts
company champion +25pts. power weapon + combat shield
Meltbombs on a per model basis +5pts
ELITES
The Death company - Counts towards force org. Do not have to take
same stats. Rending, Furious Charge, Feel no pain, fearless.
Must move as fast as possible towards enemy unless chaplain or Corbulo are within 6". They have krak grenades as well
Pretty much same as rumors have stated.
You get 1 free DC per following squads
Honor Guard
Terminator Squad
Veteran Assault Squad
Tactical Squad
Devastator Squad
Jump packs +5pts per model
Additional guys +30pts
May have rhino or drop pod at point cost
Models equipped with power fists or power weapons may count them as normal CC weapons with rending
Terminator Squad - 200pts
5 men (max)
entire squad may swap weapons for 2x LC or Thunderhammer/storm shield
or may replace one term with the cyclone +20pts, Heavy flamer +5pts (lol), Assault cannon +30pts
Can take a drop pod
Furioso Dreadnaught - 100pts
Venerable +20pts
Death company dread +25pts (+D3 attacks and moves like death company)
heavy flamer +5pts
extra armor +15pts
comes with smoke and searchlight
May take a drop pod
Dreadnaught - 125pts
Assault cannon, CCW, smoke and searchlight
Venerable +20pts
Missile launcher +10pts
Multimelta, TL- Auto cannon - free
Tl- Las +20pts
Extra armor +15pts
May take drop pod
Tech Marine - 125pts (ouch)
NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Does NOT use up force org slot. May take 1 per vehicle chosen from elites or heavy support
same stats, except comes with artificer armor
Options - Plasma pistol, servo harness +25pts
Servitors - 0-4 25pts each with Servo arm, CCW (Not Powerfist). May replace with multimelta or HB for free, Plasma cannon +10pts (no restriction)
Ws4, Bs4, S3, T3, W1, i3, a1, ld9, sv 4+
May select rhino, razorback or drop pod
Veteran Assault squad - 150pts
2A and combat squads
Jump packs included
The squad may include up to 5 additional vets for +25pts each (and combat squads? odd)
0-3 - stormbolter, combi weapon, plasma pistol/power weapon, power fist/single LC, 2x LC or thunder hammer
Anyone can take combat shield +5pts or stormshield +10pts
0-2 - Flamer/melta/plasma
Per model basis: Melta bombs +5pts
Note: Above options replace EITHER bolt pistol OR chainsword so you can replace Chainsword with power weapon AND bolt pistol with flamer
May remove jump packs and have rhino or drop pod for no point cost
Scout Squad - 80pts
combat squads
vet sarg included
5 additional scouts +65pts
Options: same as Da codex. Sarg may take melta bombs
Shotguns: R:12, S:4, Ap:-, Assault 2
MAY TAKE DROP POD
TROOPS
Assault Squad - 140pts
Vet sarg included
Same options as DA basically. Sarg can have combat shield and melta bombs
May remove jump packs and take rhino or drop pod for free
Tactical squad - 115pts
Same as DA codex
May take drop pod, rhino or razorback
FAST ATTACK
Bike squad - 110pts
2 bikes + 1 vet sarg
No combat squads
0-2 bikers +30pts
vet sarg may have power sword (no fist) and/or melta bombs
0-2 Flamer/melta/plasma
Attack Bikes - 50pts
HB or multimelta
1 bike
0-2 additional bikes +50pts
Land Speed Squadron - 65pts
Hb or Multimelta
0-2 additional speeders +65pts
0-1 Typhoon launcher +10pts
0-2 Heavy flamer +10pts or assault cannon +35pts
HEAVY SUPPORT
Devestators - 115pts
Combat squads
Options same as DA codex
may have rhino, drop pod, razorback
Land raider - 250pts
Its a land raider.
options: Pintle storm bolter 5pts, hunter killer missile +15pts, extra armor +15pts
Land raider crusader - 250pts (no limit)
Its still a land raider and has crusader weapons.
same options as land raider
Whirlwind - 85pts
Vengeance Missiles
Incendiary Castellan
Options: Dozer blade, extra armor, pintle storm bolter, hunter killer
Predator - 70pts
Options : See whirlwind
TL - Las + 35pts
HB Sponsons +25pts, Lascannons +60pts
Vindicator - 125pts
Same as previous edition, same options as other vehicles
Baal Predator - 100pts
Overcharged engines (1 - Cannot move. 2-3 nothing, 4+ vehicle is Fast and can move max of 18" )
Pintle stormbolter +10pts, Hunter killer +15pts. NO EXTRA ARMOR
HB or heavy flamers +25pts
Rhino - 40pts
Over charged engines
same as DA codex
Razorback - 50pts
TL Las +30pts
Normal vehicle options
Drop pod - 50pts
No missile launcher option
--------
A few notes: I didnt post point costs for many options because they're same as codex space marines (No discount for being single wound model tho) and no real point to repeat point costs for items everyone knows the pt costs for
However, items like flamers are basically half the cost currently. 5pts for every squad basically. Sorry I just really dont wanna post pt values for every item or option as its fairly easy to know what they are. Also just assume every vehicle has smoke and search lights and all the marines have frak/krak/BP and bolters. I added it for some and didnt for others, but they all have them
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Post by: Asmodai
Sigh. Combat squads again.
That and the increased focus on Special Characters. (I don't mind them, but it gets annoying when they start becoming mandatory for many army designs - ala Lysander, Eldrad, Corbuolo, etc.)
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Post by: cuda1179
I don't like that they turned this army on it's head, but then again it did need a huge change. One thing that worries me though is that with assault squads as both troops and fast attack, and the death company, and combat squads that means that there can be 22 units of jump pack troops hopping around. Yeah, I know it would be almost a 2,500 poiunt army. If they all had melta bombs that could be one of the best armies for taking out mech eldar or mech Tau. They wouldn't have anywhere to run.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Hmm, looks like Blood Angels might be moving back to the top o' the heap. Lots of good looking stuff here, I think combat squads is the only update I don't like or see too much potential in. Saw rending on the DC and loss of FC coming, but I dig how the DC is 'purchased' and how overcharged engines works (but ... fast baal preds? As in, can move faster and still shoot all weapons for maximum death) and the new BA librarion power is nifty x2! I agree with Asmodai 100% on the special characters as mandatory, though I also do like what Corbulo does now  - Boss Salvage
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Post by: Zubbiefish
"Fast" Baal Predators?!?
That's kinda cool. Maybe someone, somewhere will take the Heavy Flamers now.
It looks like a BA Librarain will be a must have.
I like what I see.
This army will be blisteringly fast again.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Posted By Asmodai on 04/16/2007 8:57 AM
Sigh. Combat squads again.
That and the increased focus on Special Characters. (I don't mind them, but it gets annoying when they start becoming mandatory for many army designs - ala Lysander, Eldrad, Corbuolo, etc.)
If you are playing an established Chapter, they have named characters. And if you are playing a successor chapter, then you have Chief Librarian Whatshisname of the BA Successors. I still don't see why this is a problem. Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Pariah Press
Yes, you notice how Jervis very patiently explained how to use "counts as" special characters in the DA codex. Just think of it as an independent character with very limited wargear options.
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Post by: Zubbiefish
I'm thrilled that I'll be able to use the 4 lascannon 10 man devastator squad I made.
That was the dumbest idea I ever had. See GW rules changes go both ways. They make previously stupid choices that you modeled anyway useful!
I love the no more manditory move, the fact that they no longer get furious charge for "free" and the fact that DC are still sort of "free".
I'm looking forward to this. It may do for mr what the DA codex didn't.
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Post by: Schepp himself
I welcome anything they do unless the list becomes a "White Dwarf fast fast killy killy quasi official" -list everyone is itching about. Try to kill those things off. Only chance would be to release a Blood Angel Codex quick then...And this ain't a good thing imo.
But as far everything looks quite good.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Zubbiefish on 04/16/2007 11:16 AM
That was the dumbest idea I ever had. See GW rules changes go both ways. They make previously stupid choices that you modeled anyway useful!
GW has stated in the past that the best way to future-proof your army is to buy two of every option.
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Post by: Samwise158
I like the emphasis on jump pack troops and the enhancing librarians. That seems very in line with the character of the army, plus it gets rid of the bullcrap random sized Death Company. So maybe I'm missing something, but what does the black rage do? Does it prevent the troops from shooting or what?
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Post by: Moopy
So that goes back to my original question of can the Dev squads/terminators/etc buy skills as per normal? Can Dreads get their choice?
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Post by: Lemartes
I would like to see a genuine assault army again that can actually win by assaulting. Almost all the builds I have seen are pure shoot it down before it crosses the board with a few counter assault units. Kind of stagnant right now for assault based armies.
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Post by: Frazzled
Bear in mind these are all rumors. Just putting in a list in WD would be extremely contradictory to their stated policy of wacking all things content. We may just as likely see a glorified add with the re-release of their two characters. And thats it. Edit: It would be great if this occurred though, we'll have to see.
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Post by: syr8766
Smells like 2nd ed. mischief...
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Post by: Breotan
BA infantry units will receive the Combat Squads special rule. Le sigh...
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Post by: Red__Thirst
I for one am rather interested to see which, if any, of these changes makes it into the codex.
Regarding the 'fast' Baal pattern preds and rhinos, sadly it will not let that vehicle shoot it's weaponry if it moves that far. Bear in mind, that any tracked/non-skimmer vehicle that isn't a walker may not fire any weapons, primary or defensive, if it moves over 6". So if you roll your Baal predator 18" forwards using OCE it's only option is to pop smoke. I could be wrong about that, as I don't have my BBB in front of me to check it, but I'm fairly certain that's how it works. *knocks on wood*
In any event. Things I see that I like:
Combat Squads: I like this, as I run 10 man tactical squads anyway. Having a new way to field them is only icing on the cake.
Assault Squads: I don't know how I feel about them being a troops option. I have a feeling that this is little more than a rumor, and isn't a real possibility. My reasoning for this is that it would make BA very very powerful when combined with a SHP/Chaplain, the 'new' rending DC which may or may not have ignore injury any longer, and a JP Librarian rolling around with them, giving them stupid amounts of bonus movement. I expect BA to have Tactical Squads as troop choices and that's it. Just like DA.
Regarding scouts, I like how they are elites now as well, and that they do not contribute to DC any longer (according to this rumor)
The veteran assualt squad might (FINALLY!) be worth looking into, 2 attack stat-line across the board with the option of putting jump packs and a few pair of lightning claws in the squad might make me want to field a 5 man squad as a focal point of my assault force. Who knows.
As for the DC, I like the fact that there is a cap on them now, and that you don't have to worry about losing models out of a squad for DC any longer. The option of having a ten man squad of DC without having to field ten different squads (combat squads, mind you) is also cool. I think I'm most surprised at the total removal of power weapons and power-fists from the DC, and replacing the option with rending. On the surface that seems a step to make the DC even more powerful than they already are (assuming they don't lose ignore injury, etc) but who knows.
I'm not totally happy with everything I'm seeing, but there is potential here. I'll reserve a full judgment until I see the 'finished' product in WD over the next few months.
Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
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Post by: Breotan
Combat Squads: I like this, as I run 10 man tactical squads anyway. Having a new way to field them is only icing on the cake. Razorbacks can take six guys. I rather like maxing out their transport capacity when I load them up. With combat squads it's wasted space unless I stick an IC in there with the squad. But then it's still likely to be wasted space. After all, how many IC's can you really have in an army?
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Post by: Sgt_Scruffy
All Jump Pack army---- EXALT!!! Eldar do not have a the monopoly on mobility anymore. 22 Point Assault Marine > 22 Point Jetbike?
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Post by: Toreador
Of all the complaints I have seen about combat squads, that one strikes me as funny. What happens when a guy dies, do they never get back in because they can't fill it upl?  I like the more rigid structure of combat squads. To me it seems more marine, and the ability to make more scoring units out of less is great in some missions. Hurts a lot in escalation with vehicles though. I do like it better overall though. Assault as troops? I really hope there is some other limiting factor to that. Have to take something specific to get that or something.
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Post by: winterman
Assault as troops? I really hope there is some other limiting factor to that. Have to take something specific to get that or something. Umm, how about combat squads and all the other nerfs to assault squads in the DA codex? I mean, how much does a 10 man DA assault squad cost? Also note the other nerfs in DA codex that will probably apply to BA: You can't take 6 or 8 man units, power fist vet costs more overall, may not have flamer option like now, etc. Plus, you can already take 3 FA and 3 elite now. The only thing you gain by having assault squads as troops is you don't lose speeders slots to take assault squads (and this is then balanced by a likely icreased cost in speeders). Regarding the 'fast' Baal pattern preds and rhinos, sadly it will not let that vehicle shoot it's weaponry if it moves that far. Bear in mind, that any tracked/non-skimmer vehicle that isn't a walker may not fire any weapons, primary or defensive, if it moves over 6". You are confusing 'skimmers' with 'fast vehicles'. They are not the same thing. A non-skimmer can certainly be categorized as 'fast' and be able to shoot when moving 12" or less (but yes movig 18" and shooting won't be legal).
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Post by: Whatever
For the most part,I like how the BA rules changes sound. The cap on the Death Company size is great,because I've faced DC numbering about 20 models in big games. It's also great that they have to actually pay for their jump packs now,instead of just being given to them for free. The fact that the DC isn't mandatory anymore also makes me wonder if you have to pay points to have one in the first place. After all,if you're not having to pull models out of your squads,and you didn't have to take DC,who wouldn't take DC? Yeah,a 10-man DC with Rending and Feel No Pain sounds vicious,but it looks like they may be losing "Furious Assault." That,along with having to actually pay points to fill out the squad and purchase Jump Packs or a Rhino seems to balance them out. Some people are going to hate on Combat Squads 'til the end of time,but they make sense for Marine armies. Hopefully,they'll do away with the min/maxed SW/HW 5-man squads like they did with DA. Changing Black Rage will also make units like Devastators and Tac. Squads with Heavy Weapons viable again.
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Post by: Phryxis
Hard to get a real read without points costs. Could be a major nerf, could even be a boost (which would be lunatic).
I'm definitely not happy about them releasing this in WD. Release a Codex, or don't. Once upon a time this would have been more understandable, but they've stopped doing Chapter Approved articles in WD. Doing this now is stupid. It just creates too much confusion.
I'd be much happier if they make using the old rules optional... But then that means the new rules would have to be at least as strong as the old ones, or people just won't use them.
As far as balance goes, at first, these looked like a brutal nerf... When I see "Combat Squads" I think of the Dark Angels Codex, and I am reminded that I've decided to not do any painting or purchasing until a new Codex comes out, even though I'm currently working on Eldar. My stupid little free market protest. But then there's some stuff that almost sounds like they're getting even more powerful...
The DC all have Rending? Without running the numbers, I think I'd rather have 10 guys with Rending than 2 with P Fists and the rest without, especially when combined with Furious Charge, and the massive number of attacks DC get. So that's nice. Also, not having to lose models also promotes taking Terminators and other high cost models. Suddenly I'm not so sad I painted a squad of LC Terms (and never intended to use them). The 10 man limit is a bit of a pain, since I typically get 10+ out of my list.
Taking Furious Charge and Black Rage away really strips a lot of the fluff, and I don't like it. Blood Angels should have Furious Charge. Just cost it so it's fair. Black Rage certainly doesn't offset the power of Furious Charge. Many times Black Rage is a benefit, in fact... But the BAs should all have Furious Charge, and should be costed appropriately. Just make it work.
Combat Squads really suck, but being able to give them a 12" move is great. It'll depend on the cost here. If the Librarian is an overpriced chump, it won't be so great, but being able to make any squad go 12" on an as needed basis... That's big. Just depends how they write the rules and how the cost the power. If he has to join the unit, and it costs 50 points... Bleh... But if he can effect a unit a ways away...
The Vet Assault squads are worthless under the current rules. Give them what these rules describe, 2A base, 3 Power weapons... They'd have to cost a LOT not to still be a real no-brainer unit. A 25 point Power Fist is pretty crap, but if you can get more than one in a jump squad, it's worth the premium price to get them packed in where they can do the most hurt.
All in all, my confidence has been terribly shaken by the DA Codex. Shaken like nothing GW has done before... That makes me very leery... So, while I expect a nerf of Blood Angels, and accept it's appropriate, I won't accept is another DA type rewrite, with poorly thought out rules, inexplicable nerfs, and general suck.
The usual stuff applies. I will definitely be very annoyed if my models become unusable as well. I have squad markings on my 6-man tac squads, and that sounds like it's already going out the window. More than that, and I'll be irritated.
I dunno, we'll see how it goes.
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Post by: Jester
How many points will Kharn be?
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Post by: Asmodai
"The usual stuff applies. I will definitely be very annoyed if my models become unusable as well. I have squad markings on my 6-man tac squads, and that sounds like it's already going out the window. More than that, and I'll be irritated."
That was my complaint about DA too.
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Post by: blood angel
It will be nice if we get the option for 30 pt rhinos to act as mobile cover for our 5 assault squads.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
I just had a realization of crazy-bad-nastiness....
So Death Company have 4 attacks each when they charge, all of which are rending. Now, imagine if you have a Chaplain attached to the squad....
Imagine the following scenario.
"Ok, my ten man death company squad is charging your *insert enemy squad here*. That's 40 rending attacks at ST:4, I:4....Oh wait! I forgot I had a Chaplain attached to my Death Company. He'll be swinging last with his power-fist. Let me go ahead and roll the 40 rending attacks and then REROLL the failed to-hit dice, giving me even MORE possible rending hits."
Sure against models with higher initiative like Gene Stealers, Harlies, some of the DC will still get punked down before they typically swing...but cripes the thought of what I just described gave me goosebumps.
I'm very interested to see which of these rumored changes is true. That much is certain.
Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
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Post by: blood angel
Yep, being able to fish for 6's seems to be the new BA trademark with twin assault cannons and now 4 attack death company. I'm not terribly pleased about that. I'd really rather see each member of the DC (or at least the three that should come standard with a chaplain as part of his retinue) be able to be geared like any other vet sarg with customizable equipment.
Without random DC generation it will allow for certain until to be played, like terminators but it won't stop people from padding their lists with squads to get extra DC.
Really, there isn't much that I would change about the current Blood Angels other than changing how the death company are generated. It should be bought like any other squad to clear up any scoring questions and mostly so people stop complaining. I'd probably run with a full 10 man squad no matter how much they cost though, heh.
Sadly I'd probably make the Baal 0-1 choice as well but make the furiosos more accessible and go ahead and give them the rules that Moriar uses.
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Post by: Azazelx
The thing about padding their pists with squads is that if it follows the DA precedent, buying a bunch of 5-man squads will cost a reasonable amount more than if you filled those same squads out to 10 men then split them into 2 combat squads.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Jester on 04/16/2007 7:10 PM
How many points will Kharn be?
Yeah. What the hell? Blood Angels are supposed to be a codex chapter with a slight leaning towards assault and geneseed flaw that causes them to flip out sometimes. These rules look like World Eaters. And wtf is up with rending Death Company? So they totally flip out and this gives them the ability to rip through Land Raider armor with their bare hands? That's slowed.
Posted By Red__Thirst on 04/16/2007 10:01 PM
So Death Company have 4 attacks each when they charge, all of which are rending. Now, imagine if you have a Chaplain attached to the squad....
Better yet, if you charge something with a really high Weapon Skill (like a Bloodthirster) you hit on 5+ and thus get more rerolls and more rends.
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
I agree with Abadabadoobaddon. WTF with rending? That is the dumbest part of all these rules. S-T-U-P-I-D. Additionally I think that taking assault marines as troops is lame as well. In their earlier fluff, these guys were a codex chapter with a flaw in their geneseed. That is why they have the DC. Other than that, their fighting formations is strictly codex....making them into a full on dedicated assault army is slowed.
Capt K
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Post by: cuda1179
We can always hope that the all-assault marine Blood Angels list is just their version of the Deathwing or Ravenwing. That way they are still a codex chapter, it just represents a certain company within the chapter.
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Post by: Breotan
Posted By Toreador on 04/16/2007 2:47 PM Of all the complaints I have seen about combat squads, that one strikes me as funny. What happens when a guy dies, do they never get back in because they can't fill it upl?
You've never had your razorbacks shot out from under you as you advanced? My opponents almost ALWAYS seem to be able to destroy at least one of mine. Being able to put that extra Marine inside plays to the biggest advantage Marine squads have - survivability. It's just a numbers game.
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Post by: jmurph
But they are deh VAMPIRE MARINEZ!!!! The are deh roxors in fighting!!!!
Blood Angels got free Furious Charge and DC weapons before and retardedly good CC options. Then they got rending ACs. Meanwhile WEs were busy charging vehicles they couldn't hurt and paying for their chain axes and skills. Apparently GW decided that BAs needed Rending in CC too since daemonettes have it and DC are *obviously* very similar.
Meh, so what else is new. I just hope they are brokenly good so I don't even have to think about what to buy next....
Poor orcs..
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Post by: Frazzled
ONe could always play WE or similar chapters using BA rules. DC are just "berzerker elites."
Plus you get assult cannons buahahaha. Take that Imperial scum!
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Post by: Orlanth
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.
I would even be happy if it said I must have a Vet sgt to use the combat squad rule, as that would be a fair tradeoff.
Every chapter, except possibly Space Wolves should be able to split a ten marine squad (with vet sgt) into two combat squads. Ultras certainly should as in Battle of Macragge they do.
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Post by: Toreador
I don't think combat squads is a DA alone thing. They killed two birds with one stone. Cheap tac squads with heavy weapons and min/maxing.
But I also like the DA codex and do well with it at the moment. Combat squads is the wave of the future. Most codex chapters don't do things ad-hoc. They are very ritualized and regimented. Combat squads follows this.
And remember. The Blood Angels list is a get buy test list.
Until we see the whole thing, no reason to get bent out of shape about any of it. We don't know costs or what is really true.
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Post by: Zoned
The local GW has a copy of the rules and has been showing them off. Most of the rumours are true, with a few minor differences. One thing that stood out in particular was how over the top Mephiston was - WS - 6, S - 5, T - 5, I - 6, Feel no Pain, and can cast all 3 Powers and use his Force Weapon in one turn (Jump, +D3 Attacks, Force Weapon...)
When I got my grubby hands on the list, I tried finding a way to max out Death Company as cheaply as possible (while building a decent all rounded list,) but it's pretty hard without paying the "full" cost. For example, a Tactical squad costs 115pts for the Veteran Sergeant and 4 Marines, and the extra 25pts nets you one Death Company (getting the extra Combat squad still only costs 75pts.) Whereas Assault Marines costs 140pts for the Veteran Sergeant and 4 Marines, and the extra 15 pts nets you one Death Company. You can add Death Company without buying squads, but then they cost 30pts a model. Interestingly, Blood Angel Terminators have the same stats and options as Deathwing (without mixing weapons, Fearless, and Deathwing assault,) costs 200pts, and still net you a Death Company as well (so arguably, the Death Company is FREE.)
Overall, I am pretty happy with the list, and as gross as Death Company are (they get Furious Charge built in, BTW,) it's pretty tough to max them out and have enough points for lots of shooty guns and/or support assault units.
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Post by: Toreador
so Zoned, did the BA also only get the option of one AC per squad?
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Post by: Zoned
Yes, along with the extra points (30.)
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Post by: Toreador
Very interesting, Space Marine Redux could be quite a change if they keep following this pattern....
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
Hmm. It would appear that the termies of the future are to only have one heavy weapon... The bright side is that at least the boxed set will match the options for once....lol...:rolls eyes:
Capt K
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Post by: Toreador
And after having a Termie unit deep strike behind my orks with 2 AC last weekend, I really, really can't wait for one AC. Right now all the rest of the terminator squad is ablative wounds for those two nasty cannons.
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Post by: koyote
May Assault squads be taken as Troop picks? Please say no.  Does the Sanguinary High Priest still exist as a HQ pick? Do you remember what the "jump" psychic power does?
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
Wow. Someone deep struck in a unit with 2 AC's? what a surprise. lol....like we haven't seen that before...hehe. I for one am glad the marines are getting reigned in finally...maybe it will motivate me to start playing them again. AC lists are so boring to play with and against...yawn. I really hope assault squads don't become troop choices...that still irks me.
Capt K
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By koyote on 04/17/2007 9:21 AM May Assault squads be taken as Troop picks? Please say no.
Looks like a return to the 3rd edition rulebook list.
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Post by: Mr. X
Posted By Asmodai on 04/17/2007 9:28 AM Looks like a return to the 3rd edition rulebook list.
If only. I think this game seemed a hell of a lot more balanced then. Remember when orks could take an 'uge choppa and not necessarily lose combat? I kinda wish the 5 man combat squad choice allowed either a heavy or a special weapon, but no vet sarge. Nothing's wrong with 15 point plasma guns and we all know marines needed to get nerfed a bit, but it feels like Jervis Johnson's leading you around by a ring through your nose with these new lists. EDIT: I was wrong, combat squads should be able to get a heavy but should have to take a vet. That way the marines cost about 18 points each, which is close to the amount that they should cost.
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Post by: Lemartes
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.
I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard. They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful. Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.
That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels. This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy. Posted By koyote on 04/17/2007 9:21 AM
Do you remember what the "jump" psychic power does?
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Post by: Pandion40
Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:01 AM Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.
I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard. They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful. Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.
I very much disagree with the above, espesially the bit in bold. I agree that the Raven Guard like Jump Packs but i strongly dissagree that Jump Packs are more appropriate for Raven Guard than Blood Angels.
They use their Jump Pack troops differently but the background indicates both Chapters Value this piece of equipment highly. I was dead against giving BA assault squads as troops when i first heard the rumour but i have come around a little, tho i still dont think it is nessessary as our vets and Honour Guard represent a prefrence for Jump Pack Troops adiquitly for both the BA and RG. Dispite there differing Tactics and the hostility between them i see them as looking very similar on paper. They are both mainly codex Chapters and they both like Jump Packs Alot. There biggest differences and the source of the hostility between them is there battlfield tactics.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/17/2007 10:26 AM Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.
That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels. This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy.
It is. Dark Angels are atoning for their descent into Chaos by having 10,000 years of deliberately sub-par tactics and organization.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By Pandion40 on 04/17/2007 10:41 AM Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:01 AM Posted By Lemartes on 04/17/2007 9:46 AM
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements.
I'd be much happier if that option were reserved for ravenguard. They seem much more the jump pack brigade. Having said that I'm ok with a horde O packers if they are paying for the packs. That makes them expensive but powerful. Anything to keep from playing drop pod/teleport marine army game number 237.
I very much disagree with the above, espesially the bit in bold. I agree that the Raven Guard like Jump Packs but i strongly dissagree that Jump Packs are more appropriate for Raven Guard than Blood Angels.
They use their Jump Pack troops differently but the background indicates both Chapters Value this piece of equipment highly. I was dead against giving BA assault squads as troops when i first heard the rumour but i have come around a little, tho i still dont think it is nessessary as our vets and Honour Guard represent a prefrence for Jump Pack Troops adiquitly for both the BA and RG. Dispite there differing Tactics and the hostility between them i see them as looking very similar on paper. They are both mainly codex Chapters and they both like Jump Packs Alot. There biggest differences and the source of the hostility between them is there battlfield tactics.
Sorry I remember BA as a codex chapter, not focused on jump packing. I may be mistaken in not keeping up with changes to recent fluff. When were they pack marines again?
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By jfrazell on 04/17/2007 10:58 AM
Sorry I remember BA as a codex chapter, not focused on jump packing. I may be mistaken in not keeping up with changes to recent fluff. When were they pack marines again?
In the 3rd edition main rulebook they could take Assault Marines as troops.
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Post by: Frazzled
Mmm.. so they really did change them from codex to slavering maniacs from 2nd to 3rd. That'll teach me to not keep current. Meh I still think they should reserve this for ravenguard. I see to much about them being a codex chapter. Air assault is not a codex trait.
Again having said that, if paying for their packs I have no problem with it. After all how else are my world eaters and their rending Berzerkers going to get into HTH..er..sorry never mind. BA, the new Khorne?
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Post by: Asmodai
I don't mind it. It's perfectly reasonable to field a Codex Chapter with 6 or 9 Assault Squads too - most Chapters have an entire Assault Reserve Company, and it's certainly present in the fluff that Chapters (like the Ultras) have fielded reserve companies when necessary.
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Post by: Toreador
ANd Ravenguard are not a chapter with it's own book a the moment. They are still a variant in the main codex. There will be entirely different support for the two.
DA are really only worse vs normal marines, who it seems are going to get a big nerf bat.
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Post by: Pandion40
jfrazell I did not say they are focused on jump packing I said they are a mainly codex chapter that likes Jump Packs and so their Vets have had access to jump packs since Codex: Angels Of Death. I also said I do not see any need to give BA or RG assault squads as troops. I think giving vets jump packs is all that is required for both chapters. It was the statement that it is somehow fluffier for Raven Guard to have assault squads as troops then for Blood Angels that I disagree with.
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Post by: Frazzled
Might be interesting to use these rules for ravenguard though.
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Post by: Asmodai
I don't see why you couldn't - especially as Death Company would seem to be entirely optional. Though you couldn't take Shrike in tournaments in that case.
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Post by: Toreador
I wonder if there is a qualifier for taking assault squads as troops. Somewhat like DA Ravenguard or Deathwing.
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Post by: Frazzled
US WD 328, has, in the back cover, a picture of Mephiston, and it says "Chapter Approved" Blood Angels. "The Sons of Sanguinius get a completely official Codex update - part one appears in WD329".
So, looks like its going to happen, and it looks like WD is going back to including CA materials. Great on both accounts.
www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php if true looks like a definite confirm
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Post by: Ozymandias
Posted By Asmodai on 04/17/2007 10:55 AM Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/17/2007 10:26 AM Posted By Orlanth on 04/17/2007 8:47 AM
I will wait on Combat Squads. Just because you can split a ten marine squad doesnt mean you MUST take only 5 or 10 marines and cannot have heavy weapons without ten marines. That is a seperate rule and a restriction that looks like it is for DA alone.
That would make Blood Angels better at shooting than Dark Angels. This makes sense because it is Super Fluffy.
It is. Dark Angels are atoning for their descent into Chaos by having 10,000 years of deliberately sub-par tactics and organization.
You realize that the DA tactics are really the tactics of all codex Space Marines. Its not like Guillaman wrote in Codex: "All Space Marine squads should be six men so that our opponents must kill 4 before they score any victory points..." Back OT, it sounds like the BA are getting to be more characterful with cleaner rules and less abusive builds. If Chaos and SM redux follow suit, its going to be a better game for all. Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Well, I have a feeling that when Codex: SM gets redone Raven Guard will go back to being Ultramarines with a different color scheme.
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Post by: dienekes96
Well, the WD329 nugget *is* true, as my White Dwarf has that same little box.
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Post by: Lemartes
I like the current build on Ravengaurd and in the current fluff they make extensive use of scouts. I envision it something like this: Chaplain jump pack.
Shrike and his gaurd
3 Elites with furios charge
3 Assault marine/tornados
3-6 scout squads
In essense you can still take 7 jump infantry type squads. 3 with Furious charge. Not to shabby. Throw in Shrikes scout and special rules and it may be effective. Anyone tried a similiar build.
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Post by: Toreador
Zoned, did you catch anything about the assault marines as troops? Was there a qualifier for it?
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements. But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff. Capt K
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Post by: Khornatedemon
Posted By CaptKaruthors on 04/17/2007 1:36 PM I for one like the idea of assault marines as troops. We may finally see a dedicated assault army again. Tyranids used to be but the MC list is extremely shooty which has never sat well with me in 4th edition. Gone are the days were a Fex actually used to charge into close combat. Now they stay at a distance shooting and running away. The closest thing to assault is Khorne or slaneesh but even these lists have shooty elements. But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff. Capt K
maybe the fact that "The new fluff will emphasize the BA’s progressing descent into madness and the degenerative effects of their gene flaw" will explain a little bit of it?. BA were my first 40k army 7-8 years ago when i started playing and I kinda like the new changes.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.
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Post by: Lemartes
But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff.
Capt K Fluff or no fluff I still recall 3rd ed. Rhino rush BA army of doom and having the jump packers to compensate seems to be a move to restore them to thier previous assault capabilities. It will just be called the jump pack rush. I think with the current tournemant enviornment GW has to realise that assault armies have become almost none existant. Mobile assault armies need to make a come back. With the high mobility of skimmer armies thier needs to be a way of actually catching and assaulting them. Same goes for Tyranid MC lists make it at least possible to deliver a fist to beat down some of thier beasts before your whole army dies to shootiness. Ever see a dedicated Khorne army try to bring down skimmers (Falcons) painfull and futile to watch.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/17/2007 1:51 PM
Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.
Maybe they can't justify them rules-wise, but they can justify them from a business standpoint. With the DA release we got a whole bunch of new models, which seem to be selling well (don't have any hard facts, just anecdotally). The big Chapters have enough of a following to justify releasing a special codex for them. Again, this is anecdotal but there seem to be more DA or BA players than Dark Eldar (in my group there are 3 DA players, I'm the only Dark Eldar player). Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: winterman
So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff. It's no different then Dark Angels taking terminators as troops. Or bikes as troops.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Blood Angels have always been codex marines with a slant towards cc (unlike Space Wolves which are non-codex marines with a slant towards cc). Having Jump troops as troops isn't exactly "pissing on the fluff" its just expanding on an already existing idea.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Whatever
Besides which,Sanquinius,the BA Primarch had WINGS and could fly. It's very fluffy for his chapter to try and mimick this with Jump Packs. All in all,though,Assault Troops are one option for a Troops choice. I highly doubt there will be anything in the list says "You have to take at least one unit of Jump Pack Assault Troops." If you want to play them as Codex Marines with a bent towards Jump Packs and CC,then you still can.
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Post by: Green Bloater
But the problem with that is BA were never classified as an assault army. They are a codex chapter that has a DC due to a geneseed flaw. Other than that they follow the doctrines of the Codex Astartes. So no, having them take assault marines as troops is a horrible idea and pisses on their fluff.
Capt K
BA have a tonne of fluff stating that the legion/chapter has always excelled in assault. For me these rumors are extremely exciting!  - Greenie
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/17/2007 1:51 PM
Fluff? Please the only time GW bothers with the 40k background is to justify some silly rules decision. The general concepts remain, but the details change from book to book. I think this has more to do with GW realizing that there really isn't a big enough difference between BAs, DAs, & Ultras to justify three codexes. So now their expanding on the Vampire/ Assault themes to explain a new book. That's why we got the Furioso and Baal the last time around. Otherwise they would be listed under the chapters of legend in the Marine codex.
Quoted for truthiness. This is why when the vanilla marine codex gets redone (whenever that is) you will see the fluff for chapters like White Scars, Iron Hands, and Salamanders retconned to make them into strict codex chapters (or at least as strict as Ultramarines). And when the new Chaos codex comes out you may see some new fluff: "Surprise! All the Chaos legions disbanded! Now they only fight under the banner of Abaddon's Black Legion. And all the Khorne bikers and Tzeentch terminators got eaten by Tyranids. Or something." Ultimately sales determine which armies get their own rules. Once it's been determined that an army is getting its own rules then they've got to invent some way to make that army different enough that it's not just a reprint of another army. If this means that fluff has to be thrown out or modified then that's what happens. Sales drive rules and rules drive fluff. This is why there is more rules variation between nominally "codex" marine chapters (DA, BA) than there is among all the regiments of the Imperial Guard.
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Post by: stonefox
Crimson and Abby -  You wouldn't want to be spreading lies like that! It might upset B&C and the marine diehards at warseer.
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Post by: Pariah Press
I really don't see what the army list has to do with the fluff. So the army list lets you take assault marines as troops. If you play a battle company, just don't use more than two assault squads. If you play the 6th company, use up to ten assault squads. I don't see the big deal.
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Post by: Zoned
To Toreador:
There was no qualifier - just straight up, Assault Marines are Troops, with the same options as the Dark Angel Space Marines (don't forget the +15pts for the Death Company member, though.)
Zoned
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Post by: koyote
Zoned: Do you remember anything about the "jump" psychic power? Are Sanguinary High Priests still an HQ choice? Are Assault squads Fast Attack as well?
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Post by: Clang
a 'new' BA list, Foundation paints including a decent red (at last), and I've got a pile of jump packs on the shelf. Clearly the gods are telling me to build an all jump-pack BA army...
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Post by: Morticon
To Winterman
The difference is -if these rumours are true, you dont need a character to take them as troops, which is a big departure from standard established fluff.
Regardless of what the BA excell at, the fluff since way back when has made them a generally codex aderat chapter.
Time will tell though.
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Post by: beef
I have a whole load of BA with jump pack that are still waiting for me to learn how to paint Red quickly so It makes no problem for me.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Morticon on 04/17/2007 11:21 PM
Regardless of what the BA excell at, the fluff since way back when has made them a generally codex aderat chapter.
Not anymore. Now they are a non-codex chapter with major divergence. This is because they sell well and thus need to have their own codex with majorly divergent rules so as to facilitate the milking of them for more sweet $$$. Maybe if Ultramarines sell well enough they can be majorly divergent too! I can understand sales determining who gets released first, who gets the most attention and new models, and even who gets the most powerful rules. But throwing out long established fluff so that you can release a "BLOOD ANGELS :heart: JUMP PACK ATTACK!! HURR!" codex is just lame. It's not like fanbois won't buy it if you don't give them assault marines as Troops.
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Post by: Toreador
And Abba, I would reserve judgment until you see the trial dex. DA are mostly codex with some divergence also. Ravenwing, Deathwing. So maybe BA have a few more Jump Pack guys. It's an interesting difference from the Space Wolf and Black Templar assault troops.
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Post by: Big O
Capt K
I think with the current tournemant enviornment GW has to realise that assault armies have become almost none existant. Mobile assault armies need to make a come back.
Unfortunately, making uber assault lists such as the proposed BA revision does nothing to address the fact that 4th ed seems expressly designed to kick assault lists in the junk. BA looks like a band-aid fix to be applied to a patient in need of a heart transplant.
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Post by: jmurph
DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?
Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 4:50 AM But throwing out long established fluff so that you can release a "BLOOD ANGELS :heart: JUMP PACK ATTACK!! HURR!" codex is just lame. It's not like fanbois won't buy it if you don't give them assault marines as Troops.
And the fact that Assault Marines are $45 for five (here anyway) has, of course, nothing to do with it either.
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Post by: Frazzled
$45!?!?! Yikes.
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Post by: winterman
To Winterman
The difference is -if these rumours are true, you dont need a character to take them as troops, which is a big departure from standard established fluff. And the requirement of a particular character is a recent change to the rules. I don't recall anyone saying deathwing or revenwing pissed on the fluff back in 3ed. I'd also point out, again, that blood angels could take assault marines as troops in the original 3ed rulebook list. So GW has been considering this off and on for sometime. Plus, assault marines as troops isn't that big a deal, you can still take tacticals if you feel that is more fluffy. Now what will be interesting is terminators moving 12" a turn with a librarian (or DC with 3+ inv to shooting from turbo and FNP).
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Post by: Ebon
I think I forgot to mention a few things in my report on the Adepticon seminars with Jervis Johnson, but these rumors have certainly jogged my memory. This all came from the discussion group Sunday morning.
JJ?s son plays Blood Angels.
JJ recounted how he had tried to get his son to purchase a Space marine army in the codex fashion, starting with getting a few tactical squads. But one day his son went down to the GW with excitement, but he returned home sheepishly. He told JJ, ?I wanted to buy the things you told me. But I saw Mephiston there, and I just had to have him.?
Jervis parlayed this anecdote into how special characters needed to be more central to the game and how the special characters and their images can tell you more about an army than 10 pages of fluff can. His main point had to do with special characters, but upon seeing these rumors I started to remember the original context.
Oddly enough he almost refuted that any army list changes would come about in a white dwarf. Nonetheless, I think we can see that the greatest influencer of GW product is now the geneseed spawn of Jervis Johnson.
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Post by: Frazzled
Posted By Ebon on 04/18/2007 10:55 AM
I think I forgot to mention a few things in my report on the Adepticon seminars with Jervis Johnson, but these rumors have certainly jogged my memory. This all came from the discussion group Sunday morning.
JJ’s son plays Blood Angels.
JJ recounted how he had tried to get his son to purchase a Space marine army in the codex fashion, starting with getting a few tactical squads. But one day his son went down to the GW with excitement, but he returned home sheepishly. He told JJ, “I wanted to buy the things you told me. But I saw Mephiston there, and I just had to have him.”
Jervis parlayed this anecdote into how special characters needed to be more central to the game and how the special characters and their images can tell you more about an army than 10 pages of fluff can. His main point had to do with special characters, but upon seeing these rumors I started to remember the original context.
Oddly enough he almost refuted that any army list changes would come about in a white dwarf. Nonetheless, I think we can see that the greatest influencer of GW product is now the geneseed spawn of Jervis Johnson.
Yes because one month between marine codices / subcodices is just too long 
BA ROXX HURR! Evidently someon needs to do a little kidlet intervention/brainwashing. "You love non-marine lists...marines are for sissy girls...You love non-marine lists...marines are for sissy girls..."
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Post by: frenrik
Blood angels can take 8 squads with jump packs and bp/ccw + death company already. I don't see what the big fuss is about being able to take them as troops.
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Post by: Moopy
3 of those 8 aren't worth the points.
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Post by: Whatever
I never really saw BA as a strict "codex" chapter anyways. They had their own patterns of Dreadnaughts and Predators. Their "normal" Dreads were Heavy Support choices. The DC had as much organization in the squad as an Ork mob. Most "codex" chapters didn't have Honor Guard,either. That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and Black Rage made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best. What I saw was bunch of players fielding tons of Jump Pack troops. If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?
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Post by: Ozymandias
Posted By jfrazell on 04/18/2007 10:05 AM
$45!?!?! Yikes.
Don't worry, that's only $25 in real money... (c'mon, its called the loonie!) Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and Black Rage made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best.
Well, the obvious solution is to fix the rules to make those choices more appealing. Not to make assault marines Troops. If the army doesn't play the way it's supposed to, do you change rules to match the fluff, or change the fluff to match the rules? Well, one is certainly easier than the other - especially if you're no good at writing rules. Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?
Because their background states that that is precisely what they are? According to the Index Astartes articles, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars have more divergent organization than Blood Angels. Of course that fluff probably is no longer valid since those chapters aren't popular enough to be more divergent than Blood Angels, even if it's only in the fluff. Posted By jmurph on 04/18/2007 7:44 AM
DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?
Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)
Well, at the moment it's major divergence. But I'm sure after the SM codex gets redone sucking won't be considered divergent at all.
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Post by: Toreador
And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are? As some of said, weren't Assault Marines troops for BA in the past?
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 3:35 PM
And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are?
Yes.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 3:35 PM
And so assaults as troops makes them more divergent than they already are? As some of said, weren't Assault Marines troops for BA in the past?
It really depends on how divergent you think they are currently. There's two views on this - fluff-wise they're not really all that divergent. Baal Predators and Furioso Dreadnoughts are really just changing a few weapons mounts. In practice, because of the 3rd edition codex encouraging lots of small scout squads and discouraging units like Terminators, Devastators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, etc., they're very divergent already. I think just having the option of taking Assault Squads as troops and remedying the disincentives effecting stationary units will make them much less divergent in actual practice.
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Post by: Zoned
To Koyote:
The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)
Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.
Assault Squads are strictly Troops.
21
Post by: blood angel
Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 5:18 PM
To Koyote:
The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)
Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.
Assault Squads are strictly Troops.
Jump sounds - interesting - would be even more interesting if you could actually assault after it but if the power gives the entire jump squad an invul save maybe that will make up for it but probably not since they'll just be counter charged on the enemy's turn. Seems like the thing to do would be to jump around a big group of assault terminators. Taking out the SHP sucks. I assumed he would get a re-write but total omission is just a lack of effort by the design team.
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Post by: frenrik
How does assaults marines as troops makes them more divergent than they already are?
Right now, in 1750, I can get 6 8 man assault squads (w/power fist goodness), a death company and 2 5 man scout squads led by a SHP.
With the rumored changes, if they don't muck the points to much, I can pretty much do the same, other than the SHP, and that the 48 marines will have to be divided in 5/10. So I'll either gain 2, or lose 3. Both changes make them less divergant.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
I'm rather bummed out that SHP is no longer in the rules for BA.
I have a really nifty converted plastic SHP that I am very very proud of (one of my best paint-jobs to date, if I may say so.) and was looking forwards to using in the new codex.
I must say that I am interested in seeing how these new rules play. I must finish my Eldar off first and foremost. That'll be a project that will probably last me well through the summer and into the fall. However once I finish this project off, I plan on re-building my BA's from scratch, using a few models I haven't messed with in a while. The army is going to play differently, and I'm looking forwards to seeing how steep the learning curve is.
I can't say I'm totally excited about the rumored fluff changes, but I'm reserving judgment until I read the changes in the WD before I make a final decision.
That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
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Post by: Zoned
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear - the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power only lets the Librarian himself move as if he had a jump pack, not a friendly unit.
He also has the old school "Quickening" spell.
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Post by: koyote
Thanks Zoned. Which units are Fast Attack then?
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Zoned, did you see the stat-line for Mephiston, and what about a wargear selection? Is it still what it was in the 3rd edition codex, and does he finally have an invulnerable save or his artificer armor save his only save still? Were any other special characters shown? I know there was some mention of Corbulo, any obvious changes to him? Also, what about Dante, any mention of him? Thanks in advance for any replies to these questions.
I find it interesting that the "Wings of Sanguinius" is a librarian only power, that limits the potential abuse and also doesn't require that a Libby be included in every single list. I was straight up about to start converting my own librarian out of bits I have laying around ASAP if it had wound up being a power he could cast on a friendly unit. Flying terminators for the win!
Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
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Post by: blood angel
Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 7:27 PM
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear - the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power only lets the Librarian himself move as if he had a jump pack, not a friendly unit.
He also has the old school "Quickening" spell.
Alright - that is infinitely less cool than what I assumed before. I guess I need to see the completed work before passing judgment but this is pretty much what I was afraid of. These seem like a knee jerk reactions while not in keeping with the original concept of the chapter. Sure, it is completely ok for the fluff and concept to evolve but the rules of the game have changed in such a way that makes it less fun to play a 100% assault based army.
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Post by: OverchargeThis!
Posted By Zoned on 04/18/2007 5:18 PM
To Koyote:
The Jump Power lets you move as Jump Pack (even if in Terminator Armour.) If you already had a Jump Pack, it lets you Turboboost (as I recall.)
Sanguinary High Priests exist no longer.
Assault Squads are strictly Troops.
Hey, Zoned... Are Assault Squads strictly troops? As in not available as a fast attack option?
36
Post by: Moopy
NO MORE SHP??!!
AAAHHHH!
21
Post by: blood angel
Any more word on the other special characters like Corbulo, Lemartes (crap model), Dante (please be cool) and Moriar?
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!
AAAHHHH!
That's ok. SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter. This is because they flip out ALL the time. Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops. They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).
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Post by: Pariah Press
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 10:29 PM Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!
AAAHHHH!
That's ok. SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter. This is because they flip out ALL the time. Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops. They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).
LOL. Ninja vampire spase mareinz! Hurr!
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Post by: Zubbiefish
Well SHP out Dev squad in. It's all OK by me.
I'll call him a chaplain.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By blood angel on 04/18/2007 6:12 PM
Taking out the SHP sucks. I assumed he would get a re-write but total omission is just a lack of effort by the design team.
Wait, wait. Back up a sec. The design team puts effort into writing Codices? I thought they worked on the ' a million monkeys on a million typewriters' method of rules writing - eventually one of them will write rule that makes sense. BYE
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Post by: stonefox
That's ok. SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter. This is because they flip out ALL the time. Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops. They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee). What you describe is impossible. Ninjas are totally cool and flip out ALL THE TIME. Goth kids who pretend they're vampires and drink unhealthy blood are not totally cool and flip out none of the time. Nice try Abby. What's next? Suggesting that pirate-ninjas exist? Raven guard should be totally cool and flip out all the time. Unfortunately, they play videogames all day long in their Mighty Fortress and are pasty so GWsays they're uncool. I thought they worked on the 'a million monkeys on a million typewriters' method of rules writing I'd think a group who worked on a million monkeys on typewriters philosophy would play more than a dozen games per codex.
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Post by: Whatever
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 3:26 PM Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
That,plus the assembling of the DC,Furious Charge,and Black Rage made a lot of units,like Devastators,Terminators,and even Tactical Squads unappealling at best and borderline unusable at best.
Well, the obvious solution is to fix the rules to make those choices more appealing. Not to make assault marines Troops. If the army doesn't play the way it's supposed to, do you change rules to match the fluff, or change the fluff to match the rules? Well, one is certainly easier than the other - especially if you're no good at writing rules. Posted By Whatever on 04/18/2007 12:19 PM
If players aren't going to field BA as a "codex" chapter,then why should the army list be a strict codex list with a couple of minor divergences?
Because their background states that that is precisely what they are? According to the Index Astartes articles, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars have more divergent organization than Blood Angels. Of course that fluff probably is no longer valid since those chapters aren't popular enough to be more divergent than Blood Angels, even if it's only in the fluff. Posted By jmurph on 04/18/2007 7:44 AM
DA are a codex chapter w/divergence?
Does sucking count as a minor or major divergence? ;-)
Well, at the moment it's major divergence. But I'm sure after the SM codex gets redone sucking won't be considered divergent at all.
From the sounds of it,they DID fix the rules on Black Rage and DC formation to make the said units useful again. Devastators and Tactical Squads are very viable for BA now that they don't have to worry about involuntary movement. Termies are viable now that you don't have to worry about losing 40+point models to the DC. In practice,most people will field the list closer to a codex chapter due to these rules changes. However,people that were running the popular 2 Scout Squad/Jump Troops from hxll lists aren't going to be happy with GW taking their "Furious Charge" bread and butter away from those units and doing nothing for them in return. However,letting them do away with the Scouts and just take Jump Troops for their Compulsary Troops choices will free up some points in their army lists for some of the new options they can actually use. People will also cry about "unusable" models. Also,Warhammer 40k fluff spreads over thousands of years. Is it really feasable for a fighting formation to use the same tactics they did 10,000 years ago? Heck,modern millitary tactics vary greatly from those used 50 years ago. BA have always had a hard-on for CC. Maybe over those 10,000 years,they figured that Jump Packs and sticking Assault units in Rhinos and Drop Pods were faster ways of getting their troops into CC. All in all,GW can't win. If they stick with the old fluff and build a list around that,the BA players will complain. If they modify the fluff to make the army list more conducive to what BA players are doing,the fluff-nutters will complain.
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Post by: Moopy
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 10:29 PM Posted By Moopy on 04/18/2007 8:21 PM
NO MORE SHP??!!
AAAHHHH!
That's ok. SHP are totally unfluffy for BAs because they are a divergent chapter. This is because they flip out ALL the time. Most of their free time is spent flying - that's why they have assault squads as Troops. They love jump packs with all of their body (including their peepee).
I was going to slap you so hard, you'd land in the Mage Knight universe, but then I realized I should do that to the rewriters instead. ^______________^;
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Post by: Zoned
I'll answer as many questions as possible: I was slightly wrong about the "Wings of Sanguinius" psychic power - at the last bit I said if you have a jumppack, it let's you turboboost - it's actually: if you have a bike, it lets you count as a jetbike. Koyote: I believe the Veteran Assault Marines were Elites, so that leaves Bikes, Attack Bikes, and Landspeeders as Fast Attack. Landspeeders are 1-3, pay the same points as Dark Angels, but you can have up to two Tornadoes in a squad. Red Thirst: Like I said earlier, Mephiston is a pig - WS-6, BS-5, S-5, T-5, A-4, I-6, Ld-10, Sv - 2+ can cast all three powers AND use his Force Weapon, no invulnerable but has Feel no Pain There was no wargear section, the article had the same layout as the Dark Angels codex. Dante was kinda cool, same stats as a Dark Angels master pretty much with WS-6 and A-4 - he has a Melta Gun that counts as a pistol in close combat (so it's not a Fusion/Inferno pistol) and his Inspiring Presence rule allows all friendly units within 12" get Preffered Enemy versus their opponent. Corbulo's Grail allows all friendly units within 6" to get Furious Assault. No Power Weapon though, and costed 100pts. Tycho sill sucks. Still no Power Weapon, lost his digi-lasers, but has Preffered Enemy Orks (when would THAT ever come in handy?!) Lemartes is pretty much a stock Chaplain - his Death Mask automatically reduces enemy Ld within 6" by 1 Moriar is gone. Death Company Dreadnaughts were an extra ~20pts-ish, and got +D3 attacks. Lost ignore shaken/stunned, though. Overchargethis!: When I said Assault Marines are strictly Troops, I meant, Assault Marines are STRICTLY Troops
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Post by: spaceman spiff
@ Zoned - So with no SHP did Honor Guard go away also or can you take that for Commanders/Librarians?
Thanks!!!
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Post by: Zoned
Spaceman spiff: Honour Guard are still around - 125pts for a squad of 5 (+1 Death Company,) similar to how they are used now (various character upgrades,) points were tweaked for the actual options here and there. For +25pts, equip the whole squad with Jump Packs. Pretty much had Veteran Sergeant stats.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Wow, thanks for the information Zoned.
Lots of info to digest. Interesting stuff here.
Keep us informed regarding any further information.
Take it easy, and thanks again Zoned.
-RT-
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Post by: Breotan
Wait a sec... if there's no SHP, why does BWBits have one on it's pre-order list?
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Post by: commisar-Kaine
Posted By Breotan on 04/20/2007 7:32 AM
Wait a sec... if there's no SHP, why does BWBits have one on it's pre-order list?
maybe he will take the place of the apothechary in the command squad listing.
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Post by: Moopy
Zoned: Do the Assault Squads (now troops) have the standard PP/ Flamer unit upgrades only or are there things like Melta guns, etc?
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Post by: two heads talking
Posted By stonefox on 04/19/2007 7:24 AM
What you describe is impossible. Ninjas are totally cool and flip out ALL THE TIME. Goth kids who pretend they're vampires and drink unhealthy blood are not totally cool and flip out none of the time. Nice try Abby. What's next? Suggesting that pirate-ninjas exist? Raven guard should be totally cool and flip out all the time. Unfortunately, they play videogames all day long in their Mighty Fortress and are pasty so GWsays they're uncool.
Ok, you lost me on that one.. all this ninja/pirate talk.. that's for warhammer fantasy.. not warhammer 40k.. which is what we are talking about and Blood Angels which are goth kid vampires and they love unhealthy blood.. revise and resubmit.. please.
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Post by: koyote
Zoned: Do you know any specifics about the rules for Overcharged Engines? May Blood Angel Vets, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts take veteran skills? Is there a separate entry for Veteran Squads and Veteran Assault squads? Any interesting equipment upgrades Veterans? Thanks
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Post by: OverchargeThis!
Also, can tactical squads equip heavy weapons?
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Post by: Moopy
I hope so otherwise Razorback squads are going to be gimped.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Since we keep getting repeat questions, here's the compiled rumors from the B&C. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=106361 Update: 4/19 Here’s another attempt to summarize the rumors surrounding the new Blood Angel rules reported for release in the next few months. Again, please take this for what it’s worth. Note also that I have removed those rumors that seem to have been discounted or failed to receive further confirmation. Publication QUOTE The Sons of Sanguinius get a completely official Codex update – part one appears in WD329! – US WD328, May 2007, pg. 129 * The first issue will include the fluff and the second issue will include the army list. * The rules will be available for free download sometime thereafter. * These rules are a temporary “update” not a full codex release. Fluff Changes * The new fluff will emphasize the BA’s progressing descent into madness and the degenerative effects of their gene flaw. Army Special Rule Changes * BA infantry will no longer automatically receive the Furious Charge special rule. * The Black Rage will no longer force mandatory movement, i.e. the 1/6 chance of running D6” forward. * BA infantry units will receive the Combat Squads special rule. Death Company Changes * DC are no longer mandatory for all BA armies. * Max DC squad size is 10 models. * 1 DC marine can be added to the squad for every Honour Guard, Vet Assault, Assault, Terminator, Tactical and Devastator squad in the army (either 5 or 10 man strong, doesn’t matter). * Point costs of DC models are tied to the contributing infantry squads: - 30 pts base (i.e. w/o an infantry squad affiliation) - 25 pts from tactical squads - 15 pts from assault squads - 0 pts from terminator squads (i.e. 1 free DC model per termi squad) * The infantry unit that contributes a marine to the Death Company will not have to “lose a model” to do so. * DC marines will retain furious charge, and ignore pain. * DC marines will not be able to have power weapons but all will gain rending attacks in close combat. * For an additional point cost, the DC squad can be given jump packs, a Rhino or a Drop Pod. * DC will be forced to move towards and assault the nearest enemy unit unless a Chaplain or SHP is within 6”, this rule is aka the “Black Rage.” Overcharged Engines * Will be included on Rhinos and Baal Predators * When employed on a 4+ the engines will make these tanks count as Fast vehicles, moving up to 18”. Changes to Special Characters and Units * Corbuolo will grant Furious Charge to all infantry models within 12”. * Mephiston will be able to use all (3) of his Psychic Power in the same turn. - Jump, +D3 attacks & employ his force weapon - Gains Ignore Injury - Has a very impressive stat line. * BA Librarians will gain a new psychic power, The Wings of Sanguinius, that will increase an infantry unit’s movement to 12” and jump infantry unit’s move to include a turbo boost. (May just work on the Lib and not on another unit.) - Second psychic power, Quickening will grant +D3 attacks. Army List Changes * HQ choices are limited to Captains, Chaplains and Librarians – there is no longer a Snguinary High Priest HQ option (other than Corbulo). * Honour Guard will include a “tech adept” character along with the other choices. (No additional information there.) * Vet Assault units can employ Jump Packs or Rhinos. * They have 2 attacks on their stat line. * The can take up to 3 powered cc weapons: power weapons, lightning claws or power fists. * Assault Marines will be a Troop or Fast choice for all BA armies, special character not required. - May only be a Troop choice, i.e. cannot be taken as a Fast choice. * Assault squads will alternately be able to take Rhinos or Drop Pods (like their DA equivalents). * BA Terminators will be limited to 5-man squads, w/one heavy weapon * Will not gain any other veteran skills. * All Dreadnoughts will be Elite choices. * BA dreads will have the option to take Plasmacannons and Autocannons. * Scouts will be an Elite choice with no special cc limitation, i.e. they can all be equipped with the full assortment of scout options. * BA Whirlwinds will include incendiary rounds. New Models? * Some character models will be re-released. * There will not be any new models or plastic sprues. My thanks to all those out there who are sending me PM’s and e-mails with their findings. Please keep them coming. Cheers, -OMG
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Post by: Moopy
Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/20/2007 7:51 PM
Death Company Changes
* DC will be forced to move towards and assault the nearest enemy unit unless a Chaplain or SHP is within 6”, this rule is aka the “Black Rage.”
Army List Changes
*HQ choices are limited to Captains, Chaplains and Librarians – there is no longer a Snguinary High Priest HQ option (other than Corbulo).
So is Corbulo the only SHP left in the entire Chapter? Ung. If he doesn't count as one then these two things are contrary.
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Post by: Red__Thirst
I would hope they wouldn't take away the SHP option. I know I have a SHP conversion I would love to continue to use. It was a cool, fluffy option for the list, and wasn't terribly broken either IMO. (I mean, sure he allowed rerolls around him, but he only had 2 wounds, and was BS:4 for crying out loud)
Replacing the reroll ability with furious charge instead does make sense. I like Corbulo, but still want to use my converted SHP too dangit.
Anyway, we'll see what develops. Hopefully they include the option in the final list.
Take it easy.
-RT-
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Post by: Breotan
I dont think they will. Like I said before, BWBits has a pre-order for SHP and I doubt GW would make a fig they don't intend to incorporate into a list somehow.
21
Post by: blood angel
Taken from warseer. There was also a link in the post that seemed to show the WD article. Until i get the issue in my hands and can read it all myself i'm taking everything with the appropriate grains of salt but here goes.. Im not gonna post the picture here so click on the link to see the cover.. You'll notice it's not taken on a camera phone or anything, I actually have the whole 2 part codex
I dont think BA are gonna get another codex based on the wording there if you can read it.. As it says this is the official codex, not update
Wargear changes
Exsanguinator - Description replaced with current narthecium rules. Nothing additional
Terminator armor - Same except no longer gives +1A (Same as new DA and there are no terminator honors, which means characters are at -1A)
Servo arm - Same as Codex: Sm but IT IS NOT A POWER FIST.. It "strikes at I1 at S8 with no armor save" Therefore, cover/grenades affects it
Special CHaracters
Commander Dante - 200pts
WS6, BS5, S4, T4, W3, I5, A4, LD10 SV 2+
Rights of battle
Inspiring: All friendly BA models within 12" count as having preferring enemy (Vs anyone)
Equipment: Artificer armor, iron halo, jump pack, frag and krak grenades
Axe of Mortalis - Master crafted power weapon
Death mask of sanguinius - All enemy models within 6" are at -1WS and -1BS
Perdition Pistol - Metal gun that counts as pistol in CC
If dante is included in the army then a standard bearer may carry the BA chapter banner which gives all benefits of the normal standard and also gives the unit +1A. +15pts
Tycho - Normal stats, has iron halo and artificer armor and basically is same as old edition.. IE sucks. 110pts and rights of battle
Mephiston - 225pts
WS 6, BS5, S5, T5, W3, I6, A4, LD10 SV 2+
Fearless, Feel no pain
Lord of Death - Mephiston has all 3 psychic powers and can use each one of them and his force weapon once each player turn, rather than being limited as are other librarians. He may not use the same power more than once per turn
Wargear: Artificer armor, force weapon, plasma pistol, psychic hood, frag and krak grenades
LIRBARIAN POWERS
Might of Heros - same
Wings of Sanguinius - The librarian (only him) may move as a jump pack, even with terminator armor. If on a bike he counts as moving as a jetbike
Transfixing Glare - Used in the assault phase. If successful then any enemy model in BTB contact must take a LD test. If failed the model may not attack and will be hit automatically by any CC attacks directed against them. Enemy models with a LD value cannot be affected
Brother corbulo - Same as old edition except 3wounds 100pts
no power weapon and has exsanguinator and the red grail
Red Grail : All BA units within 12" At the start of one of its assault phases receives furious charge for that turn. In addition it gives corbulo a 4+ inv save
Chaplain Lamartes - 125pts Same stats as current 3W chaplain
Has the Death mask which gives all enemy models within 6" -1LD
Non-named characters (all have 2w and LD9)
Librarian - 120pts
Has rights of battle
Options: Plasma pistol, stormbolter, combi weapons, melta bombs, bike. Can replace ALL wargear for terminator armor, storm bolter, force weapon and psychic hood for 25pts.
NO OPTION for inv save except with Term armor
Cannot take Transfixing glare but comes with other two powers as standard
Chaplain - 100pts
Same options as librarian but may take a power fist and a jump pack
Company Captain (3W and L10) - 100pts
Comes with Iron Halo
Rights of Battle
Options: Power weapon, 1 or 2 LCs, Thunder hammer, Power fist, jump pack, storm bolter, combi weapons, melta bombs
OR may take Term Armor WITH Thunderhammer + Stormshield, 2x LC or Stormbolter + Power fist/Power weapon all for only +25PTs
Honor guard - 125pts
Does not take up spot on force org chart AND IS NOT A BODYGUARD. They deploy and operate independently. May include 1 for each IC in army
2A now and come with frag/krak grenades
5 marines (max)
Jump packs +25pts (entire squad) (30pts per model basically)
Options: (a ton. Think of this as a imp guard command squad in terms of options. 2 guys can have this, 2 can have that.. etc).
2x Plasma Pistol
2x Powerfist/weapon
2x Flamer/melta/plasma
Sanguinary Priest for +20pts with exsanguinator
Tech Adept +30pt (No servo arm btw). Power weapon and blessing of omnissiah rule
Standard bearer +10pts
company champion +25pts. power weapon + combat shield
Meltbombs on a per model basis +5pts
ELITES
The Death company - Counts towards force org. Do not have to take
same stats. Rending, Furious Charge, Feel no pain, fearless.
Must move as fast as possible towards enemy unless chaplain or Corbulo are within 6". They have krak grenades as well
Pretty much same as rumors have stated.
You get 1 free DC per following squads
Honor Guard
Terminator Squad
Veteran Assault Squad
Tactical Squad
Devastator Squad
Jump packs +5pts per model
Additional guys +30pts
May have rhino or drop pod at point cost
Models equipped with power fists or power weapons may count them as normal CC weapons with rending
Terminator Squad - 200pts
5 men (max)
entire squad may swap weapons for 2x LC or Thunderhammer/storm shield
or may replace one term with the cyclone +20pts, Heavy flamer +5pts (lol), Assault cannon +30pts
Can take a drop pod
Furioso Dreadnaught - 100pts
Venerable +20pts
Death company dread +25pts (+D3 attacks and moves like death company)
heavy flamer +5pts
extra armor +15pts
comes with smoke and searchlight
May take a drop pod
Dreadnaught - 125pts
Assault cannon, CCW, smoke and searchlight
Venerable +20pts
Missile launcher +10pts
Multimelta, TL- Auto cannon - free
Tl- Las +20pts
Extra armor +15pts
May take drop pod
Tech Marine - 125pts (ouch)
NOT INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Does NOT use up force org slot. May take 1 per vehicle chosen from elites or heavy support
same stats, except comes with artificer armor
Options - Plasma pistol, servo harness +25pts
Servitors - 0-4 25pts each with Servo arm, CCW (Not Powerfist). May replace with multimelta or HB for free, Plasma cannon +10pts (no restriction)
Ws4, Bs4, S3, T3, W1, i3, a1, ld9, sv 4+
May select rhino, razorback or drop pod
Veteran Assault squad - 150pts
2A and combat squads
Jump packs included
The squad may include up to 5 additional vets for +25pts each (and combat squads? odd)
0-3 - stormbolter, combi weapon, plasma pistol/power weapon, power fist/single LC, 2x LC or thunder hammer
Anyone can take combat shield +5pts or stormshield +10pts
0-2 - Flamer/melta/plasma
Per model basis: Melta bombs +5pts
Note: Above options replace EITHER bolt pistol OR chainsword so you can replace Chainsword with power weapon AND bolt pistol with flamer
May remove jump packs and have rhino or drop pod for no point cost
Scout Squad - 80pts
combat squads
vet sarg included
5 additional scouts +65pts
Options: same as Da codex. Sarg may take melta bombs
Shotguns: R:12, S:4, Ap:-, Assault 2
MAY TAKE DROP POD
TROOPS
Assault Squad - 140pts
Vet sarg included
Same options as DA basically. Sarg can have combat shield and melta bombs
May remove jump packs and take rhino or drop pod for free
Tactical squad - 115pts
Same as DA codex
May take drop pod, rhino or razorback
FAST ATTACK
Bike squad - 110pts
2 bikes + 1 vet sarg
No combat squads
0-2 bikers +30pts
vet sarg may have power sword (no fist) and/or melta bombs
0-2 Flamer/melta/plasma
Attack Bikes - 50pts
HB or multimelta
1 bike
0-2 additional bikes +50pts
Land Speed Squadron - 65pts
Hb or Multimelta
0-2 additional speeders +65pts
0-1 Typhoon launcher +10pts
0-2 Heavy flamer +10pts or assault cannon +35pts
HEAVY SUPPORT
Devestators - 115pts
Combat squads
Options same as DA codex
may have rhino, drop pod, razorback
Land raider - 250pts
Its a land raider.
options: Pintle storm bolter 5pts, hunter killer missile +15pts, extra armor +15pts
Land raider crusader - 250pts (no limit)
Its still a land raider and has crusader weapons.
same options as land raider
Whirlwind - 85pts
Vengeance Missiles
Incendiary Castellan
Options: Dozer blade, extra armor, pintle storm bolter, hunter killer
Predator - 70pts
Options : See whirlwind
TL - Las + 35pts
HB Sponsons +25pts, Lascannons +60pts
Vindicator - 125pts
Same as previous edition, same options as other vehicles
Baal Predator - 100pts
Overcharged engines (1 - Cannot move. 2-3 nothing, 4+ vehicle is Fast and can move max of 18")
Pintle stormbolter +10pts, Hunter killer +15pts. NO EXTRA ARMOR
HB or heavy flamers +25pts
Rhino - 40pts
Over charged engines
same as DA codex
Razorback - 50pts
TL Las +30pts
Normal vehicle options
Drop pod - 50pts
No missile launcher option
--------
A few notes: I didnt post point costs for many options because they're same as codex space marines (No discount for being single wound model tho) and no real point to repeat point costs for items everyone knows the pt costs for
However, items like flamers are basically half the cost currently. 5pts for every squad basically. Sorry I just really dont wanna post pt values for every item or option as its fairly easy to know what they are. Also just assume every vehicle has smoke and search lights and all the marines have frak/krak/BP and bolters. I added it for some and didnt for others, but they all have them
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Post by: tinfoil
Be aware that Warseer's mods deleted this post (for IP reasons). If you want this info, you might be advised to copy it now.
3550
Post by: IntoTheRain
I love the direction the SM vehicle upgrades have gone
Hunter Killer missile -> price increased (we all know how overpowered that was!)
Extra Armor -> price increase (just because)
Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter -> price decrease (just because)
Smoke and Searchlights -> free (I think someone bet jervis that the searchlight would never see more use than extra armor)
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
Wow...
Some of these options are rather...interesting...to say the least. I'm glad I can still run my JP/PF chaplain that I have modeled up.
The Characters got some attention, and I can see how running a special character in your army list might make it or break it, especially when combining them. Like a Librarian and corbulo, Furious Charge force weapon anyone? Or Dante and a Chaplain + DC, "Ok, the DC charge with Dante (not attached to the DC) and all swing at I:5, thank you Furious Charge. We hit on 3's vs. you and have rending. Oh, you're at -1 WS By the way, Dante's mask effect, and the chaplain will be letting me re-roll all failed to hit with the DC, giving me more rend chances. This is not going to be pretty...." The assault-based combinations are crazy.
Man...the speed and close combat punch this army can lay down is just sick. I expect to have a field day building lists with it.
That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
4296
Post by: OverchargeThis!
Can multiple IC's be attached to the same unit?
137
Post by: ether dude
The direction that GW is taking in terms of special characters is driving me up the wall! That's the only reason that I play this game over Warmachine/Hordes: I can have my suicide command squad lead by Lieutenant Johnson and I can customize the rest of my army how ever I darn well please. Now that there are mandates on what kind of character you can take in what type of army, it looks like I'll be investing in my Menoth collection.
cheers
137
Post by: ether dude
Posted By OverchargeThis! on 04/22/2007 11:52 AM
Can multiple IC's be attached to the same unit?
Yup. Marine 'dex under special rules section (I think...)
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
Posted By ether dude on 04/22/2007 12:23 PM
The direction that GW is taking in terms of special characters is driving me up the wall! That's the only reason that I play this game over Warmachine/Hordes: I can have my suicide command squad lead by Lieutenant Johnson and I can customize the rest of my army how ever I darn well please. Now that there are mandates on what kind of character you can take in what type of army, it looks like I'll be investing in my Menoth collection.
cheers
I wouldn't be so quick there Ether Dude. You can still have your suicidal command squad screaming headfirst across the battlefield at mach 2.3. led by Lt. Johnson. You can still customize the army list to do whatever you like as well. Nobody's stopping you from doing it. They ( GW) are in my opinion, giving people a reason to field special characters again. Over 2nd edition special characters were the bomb-diggity, yo! Then in 3rd, they were cool, but usually overpriced for their effectiveness. In 4th edition I think they're trying to put more emphasis on these special characters and bring them back to their previous glory, without making them stupid like they were in 2nd edition. I don't quite know how I feel about it, as these characters are only ever seen on major battlefields, but I'm not going to complain. I'm still going to field my chaplain mini, and if I can, my SHP too. Plus my captain, and a librarian once I get one converted up. Anyway, that's my view. Take it easy - RT-
4446
Post by: knighttom
the baal pred should be just a bit more than it is say 110 or 120 ... it is a very handy tank to have around and with rending on the assault cannons it can handle just about anything out there.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By blood angel on 04/22/2007 2:33 AM
Taken from warseer. There was also a link in the post that seemed to show the WD article. Until i get the issue in my hands and can read it all myself i'm taking everything with the appropriate grains of salt but here goes..
]Im not gonna post the picture here so click on the link to see the cover.. You'll notice it's not taken on a camera phone or anything, I actually have the whole 2 part codex
I dont think BA are gonna get another codex based on the wording there if you can read it.. As it says this is the official codex, not update
Interesting. Another new precendent if true. Plus if it is true, then it will be the first codex GW has ever released that was made available for free via the GW site (if rumours about it being made availabe by PDF later is at all true.). Posted By blood angel on 04/22/2007 2:33 AM
Honor guard - 125pts
Does not take up spot on force org chart AND IS NOT A BODYGUARD. They deploy and operate independently. May include 1 for each IC in army
2A now and come with frag/krak grenades
5 marines (max)
Jump packs +25pts (entire squad) (30pts per model basically)
Options: (a ton. Think of this as a imp guard command squad in terms of options. 2 guys can have this, 2 can have that.. etc).
2x Plasma Pistol
2x Powerfist/weapon
2x Flamer/melta/plasma
Sanguinary Priest for +20pts with exsanguinator
Tech Adept +30pt (No servo arm btw). Power weapon and blessing of omnissiah rule
Standard bearer +10pts
company champion +25pts. power weapon + combat shield
Meltbombs on a per model basis +5pts
If you can take multiple IC's as you can in C: SM, then this is interesting. 6 honor gaurd squads. This will indeed be an army of jumpacks.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
I love the way these rules are shaping up. Look, an assault army that doesn't completely suck! If this turns out to be true I may just go out and convert some "Vet Assault Marines" from the DA Sprues and make it as a counts-as death company for my Ultramarines. I already have enough assault Marines to take care of troops, maybe I can build one more squad of em and I can make them the normal "Vets".
Combine that with Combat Squadding Devastators for support (and the sicko that is Mephiston), and you've got a hell of an army.
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Post by: commisar-Kaine
if that indeed is the new list then it'll work decently enough. ill wait till i see it in real print.
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Post by: clanassassin
YEEEeeeeeeeSSSssssssssss.....Blooood forrrr tthhhheeee BBBBLLLLLoooooOOOODdddDDDd GGGGOOooOOoDDDDddddd!!!! err umm *ahem*, I mean "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!"
This looks like it's going to be good time for me.I have been so busy converting metal Vet squads and a Templar Sword Brethren squad,all the while wondering if i was wasting my time....Guess not!!
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Post by: Mahu
From the rumors it seems that Blood Angels HQ act like Dark Angels, I.E. no more "attached characters". DA Command Squads are seperate squads that you can take one for each IC. You can only take 1 IC per HQ choice in that list. So I doubt we will see 6 honor guard in a list.
246
Post by: Lemartes
In 4th edition I think they're trying to put more emphasis on these special characters and bring them back to their previous glory, without making them stupid like they were in 2nd edition. This is a result of Warmachines popularity. All the casters are characters. Now when those twelve year olds want to use those way cool character models when deciding on which army to go with they can.
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Post by: Moopy
Not to mention 25pts per guy before any upgrades = very pricy & easy to kill unit.
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Post by: winterman
Why is everyone comparing the list to world eaters. BA are less like WE then before (no more rage, no more furious charge, jump packers as troops, devestators are actually viable, etc)
36
Post by: Moopy
Because people are used to doing it to make BA players mad.
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Post by: skyth
Well, I'd hold off on converting a bunch of assault marines. They're probably going back to FA only as soon as the release an actual codex (IE after all the BA players buy a bunch of assault marines)
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By skyth on 04/23/2007 2:20 PM
Well, I'd hold off on converting a bunch of assault marines. They're probably going back to FA only as soon as the release an actual codex (IE after all the BA players buy a bunch of assault marines)
Yeah pretty much. This is a great thing for players who already have a BA army, but I wont be convinced to consider buying anything until I see a codex. I know I wont buy any unit that they list in the White dwarf as it will just be scratched later on. I learned that lesson with my elysian drop troops from C/A, I wont be burnt like that again.
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Post by: skyth
I'm not buying anything that hasn't gotten a new codex already. I get the feeling I'm going to get severely burned with the SM Redux if/when it comes out.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
I dont' think it's going to be that bad, run the points in a 1500 Point army you're going to have a hard ass time getting more than 4 10 Man Assault Squads. 10 Assault Marines with a PF Sarge in that list comes in at 275 points without any plasma pistols.
Still, I see your point and I'm pretty shy of buying models at this point for any dex that has yet to be released (or may get a "revision").
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Post by: WarsmithDave
I'm not fond of lots of assault marines, just too many pts in my book. In fact the only unit with jump packs that I ever use in my BA army is my DC since its free. As crooked as this new deal is looking, its still a better one than my Orks have got. Looking forward to Mephiston though. He and vet assault squads are about the only really silver lining I see.
Does anyone else see the inherent contradiction is emphasizing the decent to madness in the fluff and taking away nearly all the rules that represent this careful mental ballance? I mean you don't even have to take any DC now. I was never a fan of losing good troopers to the DC but it always seemed very characterful. Granted they can use some toning down in respect to numbers. But with rending and fc we're likely to see a lot more ranting about DC being overpowered rather than less of it.
As BAs will always be my favourite chapter with fluff that makes my eyes bleed (in a good way) I won't be dropping them. Nothing short of turning them into Ultramarines will make me drop them. I guess I'll just have to see how much closer to Ultras they have beome in July.
36
Post by: Moopy
Other silver linings: No more mobile bombs, aka "Super charged engines" Adding those to the Baal is pretty cool too.
Corobo is pretty freekin cool for his points. Hes going in my DC.
Chappies don't have to run with the DC anymore. Run him with Vet Assaulters for good times.
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Post by: Lancer
I actually like the idea of an entire Jump Pack force. I haven't touched my Marines in 2 years, but may go dig them out if I can field a very quick choppy force. High priced? Maybe, but that's the price you pay for closing in quicker.
So instead of loosing a model now, the DC is free for certain entries? This seems to promote smaller 5 man squad usage over 10 for maximum bodies for DC. It makes the Honour Guard and use of Terminators pretty tempting. Free DC, which is essentially a 30pt model,...according to the rumors above. Another perspective when viewing the DC is that you pay 30pts for the models, but essentially have a 30pt discount on the unit entry you take. Think about it, 200pts for 5 Terminators and a DC versus 5 Terminators in the Vanilla list. It's almost like getting 34pt Terminators. anywho...I may be babbling...
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Lancer on 04/24/2007 8:46 AM
This seems to promote smaller 5 man squad usage over 10 for maximum bodies for DC. It makes the Honour Guard and use of Terminators pretty tempting.
Not really - it's combined with the combat squads rule. The only units which come in 5's (it seems) are Terminators and Veterans - both of which are pricey to take just for the Death Company.
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Post by: Mr. X
Posted By WarsmithDave on 04/23/2007 10:51 PM
Does anyone else see the inherent contradiction is emphasizing the decent to madness in the fluff and taking away nearly all the rules that represent this careful mental ballance?
I think that's where the "take a heavy weapon only in a 10 man squad" comes in. It's madness! Sheer madness!
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Post by: winterman
Think about it, 200pts for 5 Terminators and a DC versus 5 Terminators in the Vanilla list. It's almost like getting 34pt Terminators. anywho...I may be babbling... I think the balancer here is that terminators are elite, competeing with cool stuff like veteran assault marines and furiouso dreads. Plus, terminators with only 1 AC/ HF/ ML aren't all that great and if BA work like DA, you'll pay 5 points fro twin lCs, bringing them back in line with the cost of vanilla assault terminators. The good thing is that now there's no longer a disincentive for taking expensive stuff like terminators and bikes.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By winterman on 04/24/2007 11:19 AM
The good thing is that now there's no longer a disincentive for taking expensive stuff like terminators and bikes.
Yeah it is a good thing. Too bad termies suck now... 1 heavy weapon in a squad does not make a termie worth 40 points. Especially when you consider that the cost of DC are somehow calculated in their points. Yay !!!! Jervis.!!!!
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Post by: Lancer
Agreed. The option for Termies is very unattractive with the single heavy weapon. I like how the vet sqds are looking though.
4451
Post by: bloodangelsplayer
so im having a bit of trouble with this information found on page 12. i cant figure this out someone let me know.
the basic tac squad costs 90 points plus 75 to make it a 10 man squad for dark angels. so how come in this writing of the B.A. codex that people have pulled off the net does the basic B.A. squad costs 115 base? i cant see any reason for the price hike? why does the B.A.'s tac squad cost an additional 25 pionts?
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Post by: skyth
Death company
118
Post by: Schepp himself
Just a side note...wouldn't it make a lot more sense if the price of the Terminators were reduced while increasing the price for the assault cannon. I mean if only this weapon make the squad worth it or not, then the basic price cannot be right...
Just my noobie-thought.
Greets
Schepp himself
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By bloodangelsplayer on 04/25/2007 12:46 AM
why does the B.A.'s tac squad cost an additional 25 pionts?
Jervis. That's why. BYE
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Post by: Lemartes
You will start seeing less and less terminators being taken if this trend continues. When GW notices they are not selling they will bring back the two assault cannons again. The added cost to tac squads sure makes the assault troop option look more appealing. How does not seeing any tac squads in BA armies fit in with the fluff. I guess they no longer train as tac marines and go right into assault squads to train with jump packs. Enough complaining, I guess I better adapt to Jervis marines or go fully into Privateer Press games.
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Post by: stonefox
Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/25/2007 8:07 AM Posted By bloodangelsplayer on 04/25/2007 12:46 AM
why does the B.A.'s tac squad cost an additional 25 pionts?
Jervis. That's why. BYE
Former free Death Company. You actually pay for them (in some sense) now, whee.
199
Post by: Crimson Devil
We paid for them before. They were just really cheap.
36
Post by: Moopy
Agreed.
1484
Post by: Jezza
I thought for the most part Death Company were "negative" points. We had a Blood Angel player that would take 3-4 5 man scout squads, 5 man Las/plasma squads etc etc for the sheer purpose of generating more and more death company because they are far better than the line units they came from.
So for me paying for DC is only redressing the "balance" and anything that stops abuse in min maxing is good.
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Post by: Lemartes
I look forward to playing BA again without the whiners I used to get complaining about the DC. Now I can say they are 30pts each. The veterens actually look like they can be just as devestating. 3 fists/hammers/lightning claws mixed in the unit with a chaplain/Dante leading them looks to good to pass up. Dantes hitting on three's with hammers is particular appealing. Run DC's up one flank and vets up the opposite.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Okay Jezza stick with me on this, because the anti-BA lobby has continued to get this wrong since the beginning. The Chaplain is normal cost plus 110 pts for 3+d3 death company. Each and every additional guy from the regular squads was bought and paid for before joining the DC. Now this arrangement makes buying scouts to get DC a steal and Termies a ripoff. The only free part was the rhino or jump packs. BTW nothing stops min-maxing because GW can't write well enough to eliminate it, they just change what it is. And for the record I wish they had dropped this silly method of generating the DC all together and went with a straight point buy for the unit. Just as soon as we think GW can pull its head out, the suction pulls it back in.
246
Post by: Lemartes
Still going to have to pull out the long math and list to show people that DC with jump pack=30pts. I agree why not just make thema list entry with straight points. The way it's structured you will HAVE DC even if you wanted to play without them. I just wanted to take tac squads and armor but these black armored guys showed up to. DOH.
405
Post by: Antonin
Didn't Tycho die on Armageddon?
199
Post by: Crimson Devil
Yes he is, he died of shame after being surrounded by fluff Nazis telling him he was cheesy.
4379
Post by: Whatever
Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/25/2007 1:48 PM Okay Jezza stick with me on this, because the anti-BA lobby has continued to get this wrong since the beginning. The Chaplain is normal cost plus 110 pts for 3+d3 death company. Each and every additional guy from the regular squads was bought and paid for before joining the DC. Now this arrangement makes buying scouts to get DC a steal and Termies a ripoff. The only free part was the rhino or jump packs. BTW nothing stops min-maxing because GW can't write well enough to eliminate it, they just change what it is. And for the record I wish they had dropped this silly method of generating the DC all together and went with a straight point buy for the unit. Just as soon as we think GW can pull its head out, the suction pulls it back in.
Blood Angels needed to be toned down,IMO. On average,the d3+3 DC members you get for spending the 110 points on the Chaplain will yield 5 DC. This evens out to 22 points/model,the same cost as a "normal" Space Marine Assault marine. If I remember right,Vet. Skills are 3 points a model,so IF you would point Feel No Pain as Vet skill(I wouldn't because it's WAY better than any Vet skill,but I'll give BA players the benefit of the doubt here). So,on average,the 5 guys you actually pay for are 28 point models for 22 points each. Every Tac Squad marine with a boltgun you pulled for the DC basically got a 10 point upgrade for free(7 for the Assualt Marine upgrade,3 for Feel No Pain). Every Scout pulled got a 15 point upgrade,free. Also,giving Furious Charge to everything in the list for free basically made every non-vehicle model in the army 3 points undercosted. Yeah,Black Rage was disadvantage for some units(Devastators in particular),but it was an advantage for other units,like Assault Troops,DC,etc. Black Rage wound up balancing itself out,but no weakness offsets giving Furious Charge to the whole army. In the other hardcore CC Marine army list,Black Templars,you can make the argument that many models are undercosted when you take their vow into account. However,BT are balanced by being forced to take a minimum 100 point character that doesn't fill the compulsary HQ slot. They also have five different units from C:SM that they cannot use(Librarians,Scout units,Scout Bike units,Devastator Squads,and Whirlwinds). BA on the other hand have every unit type from C:SM,plus six more(Honor Guard,Vet. Assault Troops,Furioso Dreadnaught,Baal Predator,Death Company,and Sanquinary High Priests). On paper,BA's advantages vastly outweigh their disadvantages.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
I never said otherwise. What I said was that the DC are not free just really cheap. And I don't see how you can consider the Emperor's Champion a burden and not give that kind of slack to the BAs. The current BAs needed new units because many of the existing ones turned to crap. Have you ever run a two man terminator squad? Or had an entire bike squad join the DC? How about lose a game because of the Black Rage? When these things happen most people will stop using these units and focus on the ones that do work well. Of course given that the standard response to seeing the Death Co. is curling up into a ball with tears in your eyes while sitting in a puddle of your own urine, I can see why you wouldn't notice.
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Post by: Asmodai
"However,BT are balanced by being forced to take a minimum 100 point character that doesn't fill the compulsary HQ slot. "
:S
246
Post by: Lemartes
The current BAs needed new units because many of the existing ones turned to crap. Have you ever run a two man terminator squad? Or had an entire bike squad join the DC? How about lose a game because of the Black Rage? When these things happen most people will stop using these units and focus on the ones that do work well. Of course given that the standard response to seeing the Death Co. is curling up into a ball with tears in your eyes while sitting in a puddle of your own urine, I can see why you wouldn't notice.
LOL. True. I can't remember the last time I have seen terminators or bikes in a BA list. Scouts on the other hand you see plenty of with naked vet sgts. DC are great but they squish just as easy as everything else when a Dameon Prince comes out to play. I think the new DC are going to be worse than the old with rending. Now everything in the DC has the potential to take on uber characters/skimmers. IMO they are going to be much more flexible. Some I suppose will still say thier the cheese and undercosted at 30pts a model.
806
Post by: Toreador
And I think statistically they aren't that much different than the old 3 powerfist DC guys overall... Though they have the chance of being highly destructive!
I think we will see a lot more variety in the Blood Angels.
I am curious though how they will affect the landscape with the amount of jump troops they will have. Tau and Necrons will have an interesting time of it.
199
Post by: Crimson Devil
LOL. True. I can't remember the last time I have seen terminators or bikes in a BA list. Scouts on the other hand you see plenty of with naked vet sgts. DC are great but they squish just as easy as everything else when a Dameon Prince comes out to play. I think the new DC are going to be worse than the old with rending. Now everything in the DC has the potential to take on uber characters/skimmers. IMO they are going to be much more flexible. Some I suppose will still say thier the cheese and undercosted at 30pts a model. I used two units of Termies in the RTT last Saturday. In the first and the third game I had three join the DC. lol I think some of the sting will be taken out by having a smaller unit of DC, but people will still complain. I'm sure its just a matter of time before someone on Warseer starts a thread complaining about how cheesy the free frag and krak grenades are.
4379
Post by: Whatever
Posted By Asmodai on 04/26/2007 10:27 AM
"However,BT are balanced by being forced to take a minimum 100 point character that doesn't fill the compulsary HQ slot. "
:S
Not really. However,being forced to take him and having five unit choices removed from your list does.
4379
Post by: Whatever
Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/26/2007 10:20 AM I never said otherwise. What I said was that the DC are not free just really cheap. And I don't see how you can consider the Emperor's Champion a burden and not give that kind of slack to the BAs. The current BAs needed new units because many of the existing ones turned to crap. Have you ever run a two man terminator squad? Or had an entire bike squad join the DC? How about lose a game because of the Black Rage? When these things happen most people will stop using these units and focus on the ones that do work well. Of course given that the standard response to seeing the Death Co. is curling up into a ball with tears in your eyes while sitting in a puddle of your own urine, I can see why you wouldn't notice.
Every try playing a 750 point game with BT's? The EC,however,does become less of a handicap the larger of a game you play. So,if you're playing 2500 points,no big deal. However,even at 1500,I've seen the EC eat up enough points that someone would have much rather spent on a 5-man Las/Plas,Whirlwind,Predator Destructor,or Rhinos for CC squads. I never had a problem with the way DC played. However,the way the unit was undercosted was BS. If I remember right,when you roll for DC,1-3 nothing happens,4-5 one guy joins,and on 6 one guy joins and roll again. So,in 50% of your games,your Termies/bikes/whatever will be untouched and in 33%,you will only lose one guy. Sure,odd rolls happen and I'm sure people occasionally lose 3 guys out of a really important unit. How's it different from a player rolling four 1's on Terminator saves vrs. boltgun fire? Statistically,the risk didn't outweigh the rewards,otherwise,you wouldn't have taken Termies or Bikes in the first place. BA have those options,still. If you want to take a Devastator squad for you BA,and decide that,statistically,Black Rage will make the squad useless one turn out of a 6 turn game,and it's worth the risk,then you still have that option.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Yes, the old BA rules were totally balanced if you filled your list with bikes, terminators, and dev squads. And Chaos is totally balanced if you load up on Tzeentch horrors. Funny how not many people seem to do that.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Posted By Whatever on 04/26/2007 5:07 PM Posted By Crimson Devil on 04/26/2007 10:20 AM
Every try playing a 750 point game with BT's? The EC,however,does become less of a handicap the larger of a game you play. So,if you're playing 2500 points,no big deal. However,even at 1500,I've seen the EC eat up enough points that someone would have much rather spent on a 5-man Las/Plas,Whirlwind,Predator Destructor,or Rhinos for CC squads. I never had a problem with the way DC played. However,the way the unit was undercosted was BS. If I remember right,when you roll for DC,1-3 nothing happens,4-5 one guy joins,and on 6 one guy joins and roll again. So,in 50% of your games,your Termies/bikes/whatever will be untouched and in 33%,you will only lose one guy. Sure,odd rolls happen and I'm sure people occasionally lose 3 guys out of a really important unit. How's it different from a player rolling four 1's on Terminator saves vrs. boltgun fire? Statistically,the risk didn't outweigh the rewards,otherwise,you wouldn't have taken Termies or Bikes in the first place. BA have those options,still. If you want to take a Devastator squad for you BA,and decide that,statistically,Black Rage will make the squad useless one turn out of a 6 turn game,and it's worth the risk,then you still have that option.
No, I haven't. The game is badly slanted toward Space Marines as it is. 750 seems like a gimme.
Statistically they do. If you have a 50% chance of losing a 40pt model. How often are you going to risk it? Trading one for a DC isn't worth it. And its easier to count the times it hasn't happened then when it did. I can remember twice having a full unit out of the last ten games.
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Post by: Green Bloater
"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."
Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.
- Greenie
268
Post by: Mosg
Page 75: "Players that have Death Company models equipped with power fists or power weapons should count them as normal close combat weapons instead." Are you kidding me?
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Post by: Green Bloater
Rending
Rending
Rending
Rending
Rending
Get used to it.
- Greenie
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Post by: Ozymandias
Green Bloater, wow, so far all but one of your posts today have been directed at bashing Jevis Johnson. Do you have anything real to contribute to any of these discussions?
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Green Bloater
I am not bashing Jervis. I just want to see him fired then drive by and laugh and in his face. I will throw my DA army at him Marine by Marine... hopefully blinding him for the rest of his life.
I will make it to the top at the indy events where GW cannot fix the event results. So bite me you GW corporate zombie wannabees. I do rock.
- Greenie
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Post by: chuckyhol
Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 5:05 PM
I am not bashing Jervis. I just want to see him fired then drive by and laugh and in his face. I will throw my DA army at him Marine by Marine... hopefully blinding him for the rest of his life.
I will make it to the top at the indy events where GW cannot fix the event results. So bite me you GW corporate zombie wannabees. I do rock.
- Greenie
The simple fact that toy soldiers make you so angry and vindicative means that you are an incredibly sad person. Did you parents beat you greenie? Why all the hate? Chuck
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Post by: Red__Thirst
Some people don't know how to adapt and overcome.
I know for a fact I will *always* have a Blood Angels army. The rules for them could suck, and I'd still have a BA army and would play it. They were my first army, and they're the army I want to always have.
One of my good friends plays DA, and he's the same way with them, and I should mention he doesn't think the new DA rules suck I should add.
Each of us has a Xeno army as well, I play Eldar (and have since mid Third-edition before the craftworld expansion codex came out) and he plays Tau.
That said, seeing rules that you think "suck" because it doesn't meet with what you expect is not only immature, but downright dumb in my opinion.
Do I agree with all the rumored changes to BA? Of course not. I don't think anyone will, but I do consent that there is more good than bad in the proposed rules. I for one do not like the fact that assault marines can be taken as troops. It flies in the face of the existing back story of the BA, but that doesn't exactly make me upset. I'm still going to field tactical marines because A) I like them; and B) They work well.
I like the thought of fielding a portion of a Blood Angels Battle Company as an army list.
Chaplain as an HQ + DC as an elites choice
Two to three ten man tactical squads, probably in drop pods, + at least one ten man assault squad
I also plan on throwing a devastator squad on the table, 10 man of course, and a Baal pred or two as heavy supports.
If points allow, a veteran assault squad, or a Terminator squad will be the order of the day for an elite choice, or perhaps a Death Company Dreadnought in a drop pod.
I've always wanted to build a 'rapid assault' blood angels army, having the jump pack equipped marines HALO dropping on to the battlefield from thunderhawks as a shock element while the tactical marines drop right into the thick of the fighting while the thunderhawk-deployed vehicles move up and begin to aid the surgical strike.
Will it be effective? Against most opponents, probably. Will it win all the time? I doubt it. Will it be *FUN* to play? Oh yes...yes it will.
That's what matters. And that's what I want to do with my marines in the future. I'll adapt to the new rules and continue to have fun. I suggest you learn to do this if you can Greenie, I know you're a troll and all, but even trolls can learn to have fun I hope.
Later.
-RT-
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Post by: Green Bloater
I am adapting. - Greenie
1321
Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 2:48 PM
"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."
Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.
- Greenie
In Latin it's considered the height of elegance to use parallel constructions with the same word. It's fine stylistically, even if it's not to your taste. Its usage here as a parallel construction isn't a big deal. *Shrug* It ain't Shakespeare, but it's OK for GW fluff. ("And so, the Space Marine drew his mighty power sword. And it was big. And stuff. And the Guardsmen were lo to behold it and asked if they might touch his sword. But the Space Marine said nay, for it was holy, and sensitive. And the Guardsmen wept hearing the Space Marines words, for they knew that the sword was mighty, and holy, and sensitive." I'm not the biggest fan of the last few 40K codexes or the general trend towards Herohammer 40,000. Meh. Life goes on. It's not like D.A. or B.A. are worse than I.W. or Armoured Company - just doing the same thing in another direction. It's hard to hate JJ personally for not being able to write balanced 40K rules when no one else who has tried has been able to either. (My theory: hitherto undiscovered gas line leak at the rules dev studio)
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Post by: Toreador
I am still trying to figure out this hero hammer thing. Eldar heroes generally across the board suck and the army can only rely on them supporting the troops to win. DA heroes have all lost an attack across the board, and quite a few don't come with inv saves. They are more offensive than the eldar, but again, without troops they pretty much suck. When it used to be hero hammer, it was because a hero could win the game vs an entire army. Something nigh unstoppable. That was hero hammer.
Mephiston could be just nasty, but without seeing the rules, I can't come to that conclusion yet.
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Post by: Moopy
Ok, I've sat down and reviewed the codex and here are my thoughts. Yes, I have a copy of the final WD article
Pros-
More long ranged shooting
Cheaper & Better dedicated razorback and rhino transports (super charged engines don't suck anymore)
Baal gets supercharged engines
Vet. Assaulters kick butt finally
New Libby powers
Libby gets Rights of Battle (Ld 9)
Some of the Special Characters are really bad assed. Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes and Mephiston stand out.
Whirlwinds get ammo that ignores cover
Death Company and all their upgrades are paid for now- there should be far less whinging about this unit. They get rending
Multi melta bikes got cheaper
Land Raider Crusader got cheaper
Cons-
Most everything is more expensive. Powerfists, extra armor, speeders, squads (to pay for the DC). Expect to be taking less because this.
Combat squads- an absolute crappy idea. Yes they give you more flexibily to shove your heavy weapon into a 5 man squad while the rest zip off in a razorback but that's about it. Splitting your squads makes them easy targets to knock beneath 50%. Combat squads force you take either 5/10 man units, thus cutting down the abilty to attach any sort of character to units with transports. Drop pods and Rhinos are full now unless you buy a 5 man squad to go in them (waste of space combined with low model count = bad times)
Just about every unit comes with a Vet sgt. so combat so Rights of Battle for the Libby is pretty much nixed unless you're using combat squads.
Characters have less options. Want to give a HQ choice an auspex or targeter? Too bad. Also you either get a 2 wound Libby or a 3 wound Captain. I didn't play Eldar or Necrons because they couldn't be customized and the organization was very stiff, and this is starting to feel like that.
Scouts are now elites so no more cheap troop choices. Elites have a LOT of good options now.
You dedicate a slot of elite to DC or you're wasting your points. you don't HAVE to take DC, but again, every other unit costs more assuming you WILL take them.
NO skills can be taken. At all. FC can be granted by Corbulo but that's it. DC are the only unit that still has it.
Exsanquinator only saves 1 wound a turn. Narth is a better option and BA can't take them.
Death Mask can only be taken by Lemartes
My thoughts-
Apparently I can have assault cannons on my MM speeders now. Eh. Speeders (unless MM) have been made more expensive, but I'm still taking them. Too nice to grab table quarters. Their rivals, the attack bike are cheaper if you want MM options.
As a BA player you'll be taking less units due to the increased price. So the idea will be to shut down the enemy before they can knock out your units. How to do it? Mass jump packers? Drop pods to tie up the enemy? Not a great choices if your facing bugs or orks.
With the loss of FC, assaulting will have to be done in mass to carry the tide of battle. DC and Vets Assaulters (pricy!) are no brainer units (and the only ones you can buy less than 5 at a time) for larger sized battles (over 1500+ for me). With Drop Pods being a gamble, this will more than likely be done via Jet pack.
Attacking characters to units will be harder. Either zip them around in a half full rhino or DP, a razorback or by Jump pack. Many special charaters (Corbulo, Mephiston, Tycho) can not take JP. Libbys can use their special powers, but then again you can fail that and get stranded.
Honor guard are nice, but very pricy. 5 man tops and get pricier the more you add onto them. Easy way to give away your points to the enemy.
Elite slots are going to be at a premium. Furies, scouts, DC, Vet Assault, Dreads, and techmarines all fighting for space. DC are a given unit so you have 2 to play with.
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Post by: Moopy
Another negative came to mind. Jump packs get the option of dropping the packs for a free transport. That part's fine, but if you want to put them in a Land Raider, you're giving up points to do so. You pay a premium for those packs, but you get no points back if you leave those packs behind and go for the LR option.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By Toreador on 05/05/2007 11:22 PM
I am still trying to figure out this hero hammer thing.
Doobie already explained it. It's HeroHammer because rather than picking the force you want, you have to take a special character to get certain choices.
Want to take a Deathwing army lead by a Terminator Chaplain? Too bad! You must take Belial.
Want to do a cool Ravenwing force with that Biker Librarian you just converted? Sorry! You've got to take the only Jetbike in the Imperium to every engagement before you can bring bikes as troops.
I guess it's NuHeroHammer.
BYE
118
Post by: Schepp himself
And there the magical "count as" comes into play...
Greets
Schepp himself
131
Post by: malfred
Posted By Green Bloater on 05/05/2007 2:48 PM
"The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation."
Only a dumb arse like Jervis Johnson would use the word greatest twice in the same sentence. You know it is true. He is the greatest dumb arse to ever write a codex. He must be one heck of a great arse kisser.
- Greenie
Ecclesiastes would disagree with you. " A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant." Repeating a word doesn't make the writer stupid. Jervis's line isn't the best constructed, but it's not stupid to repeat yourself. In this instance I feel that there are too many conjunctions and that he would have been fine with the much simpler "The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' greatest curse, and their greatest salvation." My only issue with THAT is that it implies that they have other great curses and other great salvations. So even simpler would have been to say "The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' curse, but it is also their salvation." I don't feel sorry for the folks who have to write this stuff, though. I would crack up everytime I had to be ominous.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Posted By Moopy on 05/05/2007 11:46 PM
Ok, I've sat down and reviewed the codex and here are my thoughts. Yes, I have a copy of the final WD article
(cut long summary)
Posted By Red Thirst on 05/05/2007 Do I agree with all the rumored changes to BA? Of course not. I don't think anyone will, but I do consent that there is more good than bad in the proposed rules.
Are people not going to the complete PDF of the WD articles Ghaz just linked to? Everyone can download and print the whole thing.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Wow, that list is ridiculously uncomplicated. I was able to throw together a list in 5 minutes. Is it just me or is everything in increments of 5 points?
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Post by: Mannahnin
The DA codex is the same way. That's Jervis' plan going forward.
2884
Post by: Green Bloater
Okay it looks like I royally botched it, but in a most royally fashion royally.
- Greenie
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Link's broken.
BYE
806
Post by: Toreador
Stands to reason that when a good chunk of the Company shows up for battle, that the company commander would be out there leading them. Or at least in my mind, so I don't see how it really equals hero hammer. The leader you choose influences what units are available to battle. Stands to reason to me. You are only forced to take either of those two choices if you wish to field the respective units as troops. Hero hammer is just the wrong word for it.
1321
Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 05/05/2007 11:22 PM
I am still trying to figure out this hero hammer thing. Eldar heroes generally across the board suck
Since you think Eldrad sucks, you probably haven't been playing Eldar much with their new Codex. I'm not sure what benchmark you're using to say he sucks.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 05/06/2007 10:34 AM
Stands to reason that when a good chunk of the Company shows up for battle, that the company commander would be out there leading them. Or at least in my mind, so I don't see how it really equals hero hammer. The leader you choose influences what units are available to battle. Stands to reason to me. You are only forced to take either of those two choices if you wish to field the respective units as troops. Hero hammer is just the wrong word for it.
Every single time? Even when you're playing a 1000 point game with about 1/5 of the Company? Does the Company Master have bilocation so that he can be present in multiple locations at the same time when the Company is fighting in two places? Does the Company Master personally supervise every single combat/recon patrol?
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Post by: Toreador
I just don't see it as an unreasonable thing. I do see how people see it again as a lack of options, because they are forcing you, but I just don't see it as an unreasonable to assume he always leads the company when it shows in force.. It ties certain heroes to their respective roles in a neat (to me) way.
I have been playing against and with the eldar since the book was out. He is the best of the farseers, but I see Autarchs on the field a lot more. Eldrad makes the army much more effective. He is not a powerhouse on his own. Anything gets to him and he is still dead. Not a powerhouse, but he makes the army so much more effective.
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
Posted By Mannahnin on 05/06/2007 6:32 AM Posted By Moopy on 05/05/2007 11:46 PM
Ok, I've sat down and reviewed the codex and here are my thoughts. Yes, I have a copy of the final WD article
(cut long summary)
Posted By Red Thirst on 05/05/2007 Do I agree with all the rumored changes to BA? Of course not. I don't think anyone will, but I do consent that there is more good than bad in the proposed rules.
Are people not going to the complete PDF of the WD articles Ghaz just linked to? Everyone can download and print the whole thing.
I was not aware there was a PDF of the WD article w/ the new BA rules out there, till now anyway. Missed Gaz's post completely somehow. However it seems the link has been removed/broken. However, might I ask if someone with the WD article file please e-mail it to me? I would like to see it personally. Thanks, take it easy everyone. - RT-
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Post by: Schepp himself
Regarding heroes, the Eldar ones seem to be reasonably adjusted. The Pheonix Lords are pretty nice, but I don't see a no-brainer. Eldrad is indeed pretty good.
The thing I don't get is, why people simply don't use another model with the rules for the special character if they hate the style so much. I mean, I could say: "Hey here is awesomespecialsuper farseer jimbo from craftworld überkilly and he is so awesomesuperspecial that he can cast 3 powers a turn ect." Anyone would be offended by that?
Except for tourneys, where you could field an Eldrad model for wysiwyg-sake and be done with it.
Greets
Schepp himself
1321
Post by: Asmodai
Generally because it means you can't field a different hero. For example in a 750 point game with Deathwing, if I have to take Belial, then I'm going to have a very difficult time fielding my normal Librarian and Chaplain tag-team as well, while still being able to maintain a solid focus on troops.
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Post by: malfred
The link was working fine. I suspect they didn't have permission to post that.
357
Post by: Angron
I've heard a bunch of complaints about combat squads.... and believe me, I'm hating GW's new stance on a lot of things these days.... (Like Terminators only get one assault cannon cuz that's all we included in the box!), but if there are two marine armies that should NOT have combat squads.... Space Wolves is one, Blood Angels are the other. Sure... they're a strictly marine chapter, but every night before a battle, dozens of battle brothers fall to the black rage. Now... companies have 100 men in them... lets say you lose 10 to black rage... that means if you were able to sift through all of the paperwork of the men in question, and rearrange the ranks.... REARRANGE THE RANKS!!! the night before a battle.... you would only ever be able to have 9 men in the rest of your squads.... consider again that captains and commands count towards the 100 man policy..... and making people use combat squads goes STRICTLY against the fluff
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Post by: Toreador
Wow, when I was in the army we were able to just grab people and take them out on patrol. Didn't take paperwork to do it. You just grab em.
They fight in codex pre-arranged units. The tactics they use are based around it. Just like now, I am sure when they have the chance they fill up the squads or have a way to deal with it. Combat squads can be as fluffy or as unfluffy as you can justify it in your own mind.
2 assault cannons is just too much. It adds to all the AC spam out there.
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Post by: Toreador
Librarian AND chaplain in a 750pt game? Um... wow.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 05/06/2007 12:12 PM
Librarian AND chaplain in a 750pt game? Um... wow.
Hey, you're the one that thinks that Belial and the Master of the Ravenwing fit well into 500 point games.
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Post by: Toreador
heh heh, I never said that. The lists are made for 1500pt games. Deathwing in 500? There might be a reason they did that
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
So...anyone with the BA rules PDF mind sharing (Via e-mail)? Just curious to see the new rules with my own two eyes is all.
Thanks in advance, take it easy.
-RT-
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I have no problem with that, you can PM me your email address.
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
Thanks Boss, PM sent. Let me know if you didn't get it for whatever reason.
As for fielding special characters in a 500 point list,..yea...no-thanks.
I can speak from experience. I played in a 500 point tournament back a few years ago. It was warlords weekend, the 4th edition rulebook was just about to release and I went to the Memphis Battle Bunker with my Blood Angels. My friend Rob brought his Death Guard, and the two of us played in the Friday night 500 point tournament for one of the coveted resin life-size Bolter Shells. In a game that size you can't afford to bring one model that costs half or a third of your point total. I ran a cheap captain mini w/ a jump pack (That's right. NO chaplain *shock*) and ran two tactical squads (7 man and 8 man, one had a heavy weapon and no vet sgt, the other had a plasma gun and a vet sgt.) along with a 5 man assault squad, no upgrades, just 5 assault marines. I should note the FOC was in place and had to be adhered to.
Deathwing would not have been a viable army choice in that format, but you could field a couple of combat squads of DA's, with a terminator chaplain and a 5 man terminator squad and probably would have rocked the house IMO.
The characters nowadays are meant to be used in big battles, 1500+ points, probably even more so in 2000 point games. I like them as they are now, and tend to agree with Toreador on the mentality of having them present when a high concentration of these forces is used. You can field deathwing and ravenwing elements in any DA force, but when THE Deathwing, or THE Ravenwing mobilize, they are lead by their head honcho.
It makes sense to me anyway.
That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.
-RT-
287
Post by: Zubbiefish
Now that I've taken a look at the BA list I'm a little disheartened.
I have no less than 5 models that I simply can't use anymore. The options don't exist. One is the second Assault Cannon Terminatior (not too big a deal I'll strip his paint and he can join the Deathwing) but the others are things that I laboured on and are some of my favorite pieces. I got off lucky with my Dark Angels army but I have to build entirely new HQ choices for my Blood Angels.
Currently my HQ's for my BA are:
Librarian w/Jump Pack, Force Weapon and Chainsword (Can't do it)
Librarian w/Jump Pack and Lightning Claws (No longer an option)
Chaplain w/Jump Pack and Lightning Claws (Nope)
SHP w/Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol and Combat Shield (This guy doesn't even exist anymore)
Every one a conversion. Heck the Lightning Claw Librarian has the claws from a chaos Raptor Aspiring Champion and the SHP is a Chaplain with Corbulo's grail arm. I sawed the snot out of four metal minis (not to mention that I had to buy the whole mini just to get the parts I needed) just to build those two guys.
I like most of the changes but the limiting of wargear options for characters is driving me nuts!
36
Post by: Moopy
Lets add to that list:
I believe the Captain is the only one who can take a Thunderhammer now.
No more scout bikes
VERY little upgrades for your vehicles. I mean why make that "Spirit of the Machine" upgrade only to make it not available to purchase?
No more flamers for basic assaulters. There go my conversions.
Limiting options really takes the fun outta customizing your lists. Makes fur duller games when every army looks like the half brother of the one next to it. :p
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By Toreador on 05/06/2007 10:50 AM
I just don't see it as an unreasonable thing. I do see how people see it again as a lack of options, because they are forcing you, but I just don't see it as an unreasonable to assume he always leads the company when it shows in force.. It ties certain heroes to their respective roles in a neat (to me) way.
I have been playing against and with the eldar since the book was out. He is the best of the farseers, but I see Autarchs on the field a lot more. Eldrad makes the army much more effective. He is not a powerhouse on his own. Anything gets to him and he is still dead. Not a powerhouse, but he makes the army so much more effective.
You don't see constant price increases as an unreasonable thing Toreador - we don't expect any less. And you're assuming that the company always 'shows in force'. 40K fluff has shown time and time again that different companies will have parts of them selves seconded to certain task forces. You could have four squads of Deathwing led by the Deathwing's Company Chaplain are seconded to the 3rd Company for a small campaign, or in support of a larger Imperial contingent. You could want to play a mission where the Chaplain leads the Deathwing in a 'First Strike' to clear the landing zones. But you can't. Belial has to come with them. BYE
806
Post by: Toreador
You can still field 3 squads of Deathwing and 3 squads of Ravenwing show in a mission. Seems little different to me.
I am not going to argue pricing with the people that turn around and say WM is so much better priced. Then turn around and buy FW stuff. It's just money and toys. Yes, I will pay more for something better. The Empire troops to me were a lot better. So yes, I will go with that. But don't take what I say out of context. I don't like all price increases, especially in old product or reboxing of product.
I had a few DA models I had to redo. But I noticed a bit of the options you can take. It seemed to balance out a lot of the different characters. There are reasons to take each against the others, and options are a part of that.
I don't see why flamers were taken away from assault troops though. I can't say that I have used assault troops for quite some time though. Was it an option people took? It looks like it was a viable option. Any reasoning?
36
Post by: Moopy
I loved flamers in my assault unit (1 only fielded 1 unit of jump packers and plan on MAYBE adding one more unit but that's it). They softened up bugs, guard, eldar and orks, and made everything else mad. Now we get plasma pistols at 15pts a pop. I really can't see the logic behind that; those things were hardly over powered.
806
Post by: Toreador
At one time wasn't it only pistols not flamers? It's interesting they added it back in for BA vet squads.
I can see why some things were nixed because of the proliferation, or how much better vs other options. That one I just can't figure out...
3687
Post by: Red__Thirst
Yea, Flamers in BA assault squads are very very nasty, and I for one am disappointed that they were removed from the unit as an option. I LOVED putting flamers in my lone assault squad, they were just so damn useful in so many situations, and really helped soften the blow against enemy troopers in cover. Ce-la-vie. No big deal though, as I'm rebuilding my BA's at the moment, so I'll just put a single plasma pistol in there for good measure. By the way, Thanks Boss, I got the e-mail just fine, I appreciate it Take 'er easy everyone. - RT-
2548
Post by: jmurph
On the subject of required HQ and stripped down armory choices/fixed unit sizes, anybody else wonder if the rules dev has been playing too much Warmachine? :-)
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
So much for getting rid of Codex Creep with the new DA's.
Certainly this list isn't as bad as the old BA list, but it easily proves that the Red Space Marines are much better than the Green Space Marines.
Fortunately I play the Blue Space Marines, who still have the best and most versatile rules (and I'm not talking about the Tyranic War Vets).
872
Post by: Sgt_Scruffy
I got the rules before they took them down, and while they are certainly better than DAs, they still got hit with a NERF bat while falling from the NERF tree and hitting all the NERF branches on the way down.
As best I can figure, you'll be able to squeeze maybe 40 jump packers and 3 BAAL preds into a 1750 Point force. That's without a librarian or any othere support (no land speeders).
This is what I came up with real quick.
Lemartes- this guy is pretty good now. Only 5 points more than a standard chap w/ jump pack for +1 wound, ld, and deathmask
8 Death Company- jump packs
1x 8 Veteran Assault Marines- 2 flamers, 1 powerfist
1x 8 Veteran Assault Marines- 2 meltas, 1 powerfist
1x8 Veteran Assault Marines- 2 plasma guns, 2 plasma pistols, power fist,
2x5 Assault Marines- powerfist
3x1 Baal Predators
43 Jump Packers and Three tanks at 1750 points. You could fiddle with the options a little to tailor it to your metagame. An interesting note... Veteran assault squads and Honor Guard can take bolters instead of chainswords... they lose an attack but gain that rapid fire goodness... could be useful in limited circumstances (punking harlequins)
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Yes, but the old list needed to be beaten over the head by an enraged Jervis using an uprooted Nerf Tree.
Basically at 1500 points, they're not that bad. They're still very good, but they're not quite what you could do with other lists. It's pretty entertaining actually, since they have so much potential, but the Combat Squads and everything else is so expensive, that you literally can't fit it all in at 1500 points.
Now when you go OVER 1500 points. They get dangerous, very dangerous. I mean damn, if you were to come up against say a 2500 Point Blood Angels army, just say NO. I can see the Blood Angels doing very well at next years Adepticon where the tournaments are at like 2k points. That's where you're going to see a lot of BA Pain. Fortunately most tournaments are around 1500 or 1750, where the BA are far more limited.
A great example is Mephiston. Mephiston is their cheif pissed off librarian. He's essentially a 225 point Demon Prince who has to take a Psychic Test to fly (and can use all his powers a turn, including the force weapon). He's so good that when going to make the jump between say a 1500 point army list and a 1750 point army list, he's probably worth being the only addition - he could chew through squads at a time, with T5 to be instant killed AND he's I6, with 5+1(Charging)+D3 S5, Force Weapon Attacks per turn, and he's still not a MC and can't be targeted if he's not in a squad and he's not the closest model.
Fortunately (and I'd never think I'd say this), the Death Company limits the ability to take Mephiston. You don't have to take a Chaplain or the Death Company, but you're essentially paying for the DC with every squad you take, so you're stupid NOT to kit out on one of the best squads in the game (they give Harlequins a run for their money). So you're stuck paying about 120-125 points for a Chaplain as the near default HQ, and then if you've got an extra 225 points laying around, you take Mephiston as your second HQ choice.
They do lack anti-tank, and if you dedicate the normal Dev squad layouts with Combat Squads to them, you really cut into the points needed for all those jump packers.
And yes, I was going to kit out for a stock Chaplain, but for the extra 5 Points, Lemartes is going to be the default chaplain in every new BA list.
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Post by: Lancer
I agree with Voodoo...most BA armies will probably run Lemartes. The Vet's look very nice. I think I'd field all 3 slots. Also, they may only be taken in groups of 5 or 10. But having the option for 2 special weapons and up to 3 powered weapons is destructive, but at a high price. I'm thinking about constructing an all jump pack force with too many power fists for its own good. Vets are also only 10 points more then standard assault sqd, but everyone has 2 attks and it has way more options.
The Honour Guard isn't too bad. Doesn't take up a force org slot and it's pretty much the same points as vets. Dante is pretty pricey...but I like the option of using his standard to give all BA's +1 A that are within 12 inches.
BA's are definitely toned down, but...they still appear to be very powerful. It almost reminds me of SpaceWolf units...being that a whole lot of power weapons can be fielded.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
No, Vets don't have to be 5 or 10, they can get mixed numbers so that magical "8 MEQ's" per squad will likely get fielded. 1 Power Fist, 2 Meltas, and 8 Vet assault marines come to about 295 points, which is hefty. And that's not even using all the special options (which admittedly they should be taking 2 fists instead of the dual meltas, coming in at 300 Points for 8 MEQ's).
I think most "troops" in the BA army will be minned out Assault Marines with just a PF on the sarge and that's it. They fill the FOC slots, give you a decent, if somewhat disposable threat, and they give you free DC members. After that if you want more assault, you take more DC or Vet Assault Squads, if you want shooty, you take Devs.
At 1500 you'll be trying to fit things in like crazy, but the increased costs on things like power fists and the inability to get plentiful cheap heavy weapons in tac squads really does add a whole lot of balance to the SM List.
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Post by: malfred
So who did put that pdf up there and where'd they get it from?
A PM will work if you're afraid of the spiez!
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Post by: starbuck
Posted By malfred on 05/07/2007 8:41 AM
So who did put that pdf up there and where'd they get it from?
A PM will work if you're afraid of the spiez!
Ditto.
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Post by: Asmodai
I'd love to get a PM too.
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Post by: Lancer
Voodoo's right. The text differs. Vets vary. Makes them even better hehe
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Post by: Moopy
PMing me with that PDF would be awesome
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Post by: malfred
Silly people. I don't need the pdf. I'm wondering where the file came from!
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Post by: ski2060
Playtest group to provide feedback from actual players? NDA supposedly applied in this instance but was broken maybe? Supposedly secure link that was leaked out to someone?
Magical 40k Fairy that leaked it?
Or a really good hoax compiled by members of a secretive organisation intent on deluding BA players with fake rules?
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Post by: Cyric036
I would appreciate the PDF as well.
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Post by: stonefox
Anyone know a good site to host the file? I'd help with emailing the pdf but it's 4.5 megs.
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Post by: Zubbiefish
I don't know its source but it's a scan of a proof.
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Post by: commisar-Kaine
anyone want to hook me up with an email or a pm? it'd be greatly appreciated =-)
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Post by: malfred
You're all hackers!
<3 Da Boss
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Post by: Pariah Press
Actually, we prefer the term "1337 haxxors."
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Post by: Green Bloater
It's like 13 Mb. Freaking huge.
- Greenie
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Post by: Koz
13 megs not that bad unless youre on a 28.8k modem I'd kill in the name of the Emperor for a PM as well. 
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Post by: Asmodai
How many pages?
It might be easier to capture the pages as JPEGs then post them to Imageshack.
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Post by: Eldred Jonas
Any joy getting it up? the file that is
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Post by: Yad
Any chance I can get a PM for a link?
-Yad
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Post by: PapaNurgle
PM if you have it please.
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
I'd love to have a PM as well, boy does that sound dirty??
Chappy P!
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Post by: Green Bloater
Dollar dollar bill ya'll.
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Post by: RussWakelin
'ello, 'ello, 'ello... What's all this then? Distribut'n copies of pre-release material? Well we've 'ad just about enough of that now hadn't we? Move along... move along. Noth'n ta see here.
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Post by: RussWakelin
'ello, 'ello, 'ello... What's all this then? Distribut'n copies of pre-release material? Well we've 'ad just about enough of that now hadn't we? Move along... move along. Noth'n ta see here.
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