Looks like it's time for the books.  All Codicies/Army Books go up $2 and the Starter Sets $5 on July 9th.  A pretty mild rise this year.  Although I'm sure the 'stealth rises' shall continue nonetheless.

http://us.games-workshop.com/priceadjustment/default.htm

In before the lock!

Games Workshop’s yearly price adjustment

Confirmation that the rises ARE yearly (at least), and yet "adjustment" instead of the more honest "increase".

Heh. They use 'rise', 'increase' and 'adjustment' all in the same article. And those prices ain't just that, they're 'affected'.

With the UK increase just a few weeks ago on blisters, when can we expect that to happen here too?

The boxed sets (especially Battle for Skull Pass) are still a really good deal.

That said, these "yearly" adjustments are becoming laughable. 


GW keeps dropping this crap on us every year.  Sooner or later someone is going to flush the toilet.  Figuratively speaking.

For new comers, 'stealth price increases' are stuff like replacing a box of 20 men for $35 with a box of 10 men for $22.

People still buy the full priced GW stuff? Wow, kinda like seeing a Yeti or something...

Yeah, I imagine that most of their business in certain parts of the world and in certain cities is from their own stores at full RRP, or secondary retailers who also sell at full RRP (think of all the toy stores, etc, as well as FLGS' that don't discount GW). As for the codexes, the price of a book is pretty insignificant when you take the figures into account, at least if you're a working adult. I can see it being a bigger deal to younger or unemployed/student gamers.

Looks like I purchase the Battle for McCragge before July. All I really want out of it is the little rulebook and some of the secenery. Another Scatter die would be nice if it comes with one.

It's still cheaper for me to buy full price from the US, plus shipping, than it is to drive 10 mins to my local GW and buy it there.

Australian prices really suck...

BYE

What's "it" in this case? GWUS's shipping prices are obscene.

I have from time to time ordered stuff from GWUK because as you've suggested they are cheaper then discounted FLGS even with shipping in some cases.

Raising army book price now? That makes me sad, as I sometimes enjoyed purchasing a shiney new codex / army book to read through and peruse the new options, art and such. Looks like for their $2 increase GeeDub has lost $20 more from me

- Boss Salvage

This price increase doesn't upset me nearly as much as the stealth increases for the Empire range. The codices have been the same price for a long time, and it was inevitable that they raise the prices on them eventually. While inflation doesn't explain why a regiment box goes from $22 to $35 in 8 years, it does explain why an army book goes from $20 to $22 in the same time frame.

As for the starter sets... well, nothing good can last. They probably figured they've sold as many as they can to veterans, and now they might as well get new players used to paying GW prices.

Also, say what you'd like about GW not caring about it's veteran hobbyists, but this has to be the earliest we've gotten the price increase posting. We all have two months to pick up codices or army books we're missing. My point is that once you acknowledge price increases as a given, it's nicer to know about them ahead of time, rather than a month out.

That said, is it weird that we know about price increases before we know what models will be released in July?

I don't mind the Empire troops increase either. I faced out my old regiments with the new box (I bought the battalion), and the models just blow away the older models I have. So it may have been a "stealth increase", but the models and options are much better than the old ones, in my opinion. The box set is a much better set, with a lot more options.

Very mild increase, and one that won't be affecting many people at all. 45 bucks vs 50 bucks for the starter sets isn't a big deal. You buy them once, and it's still a good deal at 50 bucks. Army books going up 2 bucks over the last few years is also negligable, especially when you look at inflation. How much will this really affect people? A starter game and two codexes is a whopping 9 bucks. Even buying all 3 starters and 8 codexes is still only 31 dollars. That's how much extra I have to pay in gas every week, vs a couple of years ago. This also assumes your even paying full retail.

Some of the price increases have been harsh. This one is nothing.

Agreed. What bothers me more are the stealth releases of updated codecies and the stealth rules changes contained within. I can only imagine the frustration and rage of the Necron team that played at Adepticon...

Posted By Furious on 04/17/2007 12:03 PM

Some of the price increases have been harsh. This one is nothing.

Agreed. What bothers me more are the stealth releases of updated codecies and the stealth rules changes contained within. I can only imagine the frustration and rage of the Necron team that played at Adepticon...

What are you talking about?

LOL at Furious and mikhalia (10% increase on top of previous increases "is nothing".)

Considering how long army books have been at that price point, I don't take it as a bad thing.

Posted By Broon on 04/17/2007 2:15 PM
LOL at Furious and mikhalia (10% increase on top of previous increases "is nothing".)

Where are the previous increases to army books and starter sets?  I don't recall ever paying less than $20 for an army book (except the small 3rd ed codices).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Broon on 04/17/2007 2:15 PM
LOL at Furious and mikhalia (10% increase on top of previous increases "is nothing".)

Yes, it's nothing. 2 extra bucks for a codex? not even a piece of pizza. 20 minutes work even if your at minimum wage. Complaining about this increase is pretty pointless. We know GW is going to increase some part of the range each year. This was a pretty minimal amount of items, and not much of an increase on them.

GW's Codexes are over-priced. For the same price you can get full color, hardcover RPG books (similar in terms of needing playtesting and small player base). That said, this change is pretty minor. It's nothing new.

I suppose you could pass it off to me as a minor increase if I wasn't able to compare with PP. For $25 I get an awesome full color 256 page core rule book in Prime remix. Kinda makes the GW codices look pathetic in comparison at a price of $22.

The entire ruleset, including all the 'dexes, should be available for free online. They've already done it for most of the microlists. There's little profit to be made from the books anyways, most of it is in minis.

Posted By Toreador on 04/17/2007 8:30 AM
I don't mind the Empire troops increase either.

Does your Guy Fawkes mask have rose-tinted eyeholes by any chance?

I swear, you love everything GW does, including price increases!!

BYE

My personal theory is that Toreador is really Jervis.

Sorry, but the models and options in the kit are a lot better. They make my older Empire troops look horrible in comparison. I am willing to pay more for better figs with a lot more options. It is almost bad enough that I need to replace the rest of the models in the units, but I don't want to do that.

And there are things I don't like, but why do I need to even speak about them when I know that certain people on here will have it all covered for me anyway.

I should wonder why any of you even play the game, you seem to hate it so much.

Who says we play the game? I come here strictly to complain and start fights.

Posted By Toreador on 04/19/2007 11:55 AM
[lots of text]

Wouldn't've been easier just to say 'Yes, they are rose-tinted'.

BYE

Just as easy as it would be for you not to post anything back.

Oddly, I like the game that I talk about. You, I have never heard a positive word out of.

Prices rise, figures get better. Part of life. Put an 80's ork or marine next to a modern model and wonder why....

Again, if you don't like it, don't pay for it.

A complaining gamer is a happy gamer. So here at Dakka, the board is loaded with lots of happy gamers!

Personally I love it when prices go up because I'm allergic to money.

I think there is a cure for that, Doob.

Where have you gone, Jojo_monkey_boy!

He has passed like rain on the mountain, Rabboni. Like wind in the meadow.

I like to think he's the meat of a rave chick sandwitch, but no-one knows where the monkey boy roams.

I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Which, I think, strikes an important point: we all know the GW hobby is expensive, but the guys who play regularly tend to be the same guys enjoying the game. When you stop playing, when you stop having fun, the time a codex gets re-released or the next time prices go up you can't justify getting back in - because you forgot why you got started in the first place - for fun!

I know GW isn't perfect, but I do play weekly, and I have blast everytime I play. I play regularly in the Canadian Hall of Heroes system, and I play strangers all the time. Despite all their imperfections, the GW games are far from unplayable (especially WHFB,) and don't develop tortuous rules arguments evertime you set up models. But you'd think otherwise if all you did was read the threads on Dakkadakka.

Zoned: People complain about what doesn't work. 95% of GW's rules work fine. You only hear about the small proportion that don't because they're the ones most likely to cause difficulties that people come here to try and find a solution for, or that annoy people.

The games are fun and certainly playable - but, of course, they could also be better.

In terms of internet discussion there's basically two options - (1) sycophantic back patting and deliberately ignoring problems or (2) criticizing problems, which can lead to an impression of negativity.

People don't post "I had a couple fun games this weekend. No rules issues and the armies were well balanced against each other. I lost, but that was mostly due to mis-deploying my fast cavalry." The things that are discussion-worthy are more likely to be things that people are having difficulty with or that people don't like.

For example, Leman Russ Battletanks are usually regarded as being pretty solid, effective, well-balanced and well-priced for what they do. You don't see a lot of threads entitled "Leman Russ should stay the same!". In contrast, Dark Angels now relies on some pretty cheesy tactics (like first turn assaults) to make up for weaknesses elsewhere in the list. You do see a lot of threads reacting to that.

I think it's an important point to note that people who enjoy the game will still sound off about things that bother them, and they may not feel compelled to proclaim their love for it every post. The fact that they're still here talking about it is good enough evidence of that.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/19/2007 9:25 PM
People don't post "I had a couple fun games this weekend. No rules issues and the armies were well balanced against each other. I lost, but that was mostly due to mis-deploying my fast cavalry."

They do on some other forums.  Because a thread is just not worth reading unless it's 500 pages long!

While I always hate seeing any price raises in GW prices, this one will have a minimal effect on me. I don't plan on (re)purchasing codecies (I have no issues with marking discovered rules changes in my books) or picking up a Battle of McCragge boxed set.

However, I do realize this may have an impact on new, incoming players that are interested in the game but not an additional $7 in startup costs (BoM box and a Codex). I'm also aware the quality of GW's books are inferior to that of Privateer Press. Regardless, I don't see this as earth-shattering or hobby-ending news or worthy of heaping scorn upon Toreador, Mikhaila or myself. It's a minor raise in price on products veteran players aren't likely to purchase in the next year. Save the wrath for 2008.

Posted By Zoned on 04/19/2007 9:11 PM
I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Youre mistaken then, I play almost weekly now, with some short recesses when RL gets hairy. I am enjoying finishing my eldar now that I have new rules, and getting my butt kicked with my necrons. Lysander is just boring...

In fact, I play lots of differing games, so it becomes pretty apparent where each type of game has an area that is lacking, and where it is a standard for games to emulate.

Just because I dont buy much GW doesnt mean I dont enjoy playing GW games. Thats why I have been on this board for so long. The "Biggest source of complaints" is probably one of their biggest supporters.

So whats this important point again? And why am I involved in it?

I am not sure what youre going on about, but you could probably stop putting words in peoples mouths and speak for yourself.

Posted By Zoned on 04/19/2007 9:11 PM
I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Excuse me? How the hell do you know how much GW games I play? Do you know me in person? Do you even play in my local group or live remotely near me? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made such preposterous suggestion. Perhaps if you weren't so busy sucking on the GW "teat" you might have noticed that Hellfury in particular has frequently posted about playing 40k in the past year or more. That alone shows how clueless your personal attacks on us are. By the way, I most certainly have played GW games in the past year. Why the hell else would I continue to post here if I didn't?

In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal. Discussion, by the way, is "an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic." That topic specifically being miniature wargames of all stripes, not just GW products. Perhaps you should look into trying to do more of that instead of putting forth yet more lame attacks on people because their opinion of GW's product differs from yours.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/20/2007 12:48 AM
In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal.

I hope you see the irony in posting that.

 

 

Posted By Wayfarer on 04/20/2007 2:03 AM

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/20/2007 12:48 AM
In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal.

I hope you see the irony in posting that.

And what is that? I had not even posted previously in this thread, yet it is somehow acceptable to call me out and make a baseless personal attack? Huh?

 

You know, it's discussions like this that make me glad that the only GW minis I'm interested in are either by Armorcast or from Rogue Trader... and have been OOP for so long that price rises (and the fracas that goes with them) are irrelevant !

 

 

Posted By Toreador on 04/19/2007 2:42 PM
Just as easy as it would be for you not to post anything back.

Where's the fun in that?

And if you've heard nothing but bad things from me, then you haven't really been paying attention.

What people like you get so hung up on is my tone. I'm a very blunt person when it comes to things like this. People often mistake this as arrogance or hostility.

BYE

Posted By Toreador on 04/19/2007 2:42 PM

Prices rise, figures get better. Part of life. Put an 80's ork or marine next to a modern model and wonder why....

 

Toreador:  You wouldn't get many complaints if the above was true.  The truth is that the "modern models" are a mixed bag:  Everything about "better models" is purely subjective...  Some like the new Empire plastics due to their sleeker appearance and ease of ranking up.  Some don't, because the new Empire plastics lack the interchangable aspect of the older plastics... etc. etc.

The real area where the newer=better="ok to raise prices" arguement falls down is the constant repackaging of old models, and arbitrary increase in price bands - Even the example of 80s marines is misplaced, since the "current range" has the following 2nd edition models (to name a few off the top of my head):

Marine bikes, Marine Assault Sgts, Vidicator, most of the Eldar Warlocks, Eldar Wraithguard, Eldar Warpsiders Eldar Jetbikes, Chaos bikes, Ork buggies, Sisters of Battle, Bjorn the Fell Handed, Abaddon, Ahrimman, Ragnar, Mepiston, Eldrad etc....

The new Empire Engineer in the UK is on the "Price Adjustment" list despite being extremely new... due to its placement in the "price band".

The recently discontinued metal Eldar Wraithlord, had a base mould dating from Rogue Trader recently retailed for $45 cdn, up from $7 cdn in the 80s.  That's only an increase of almost 650%...

The Eldar support battery, instead of a blister weapon "of choice", for $25 cdn, we had the weapon repackaged into $40 box containing all options!  Horray for paying $15 for 2 unusable extra guns!

The newest release, Asmodai and Azrael have base moulds dating back to 2nd Edition, with new backpacks.  I guess the new back banners can justify their $25 cdn pricetags... considering that this represents close to a 100% over their starting price for essentially the same model as before...

So... it all boils down to "the price you are willing to pay for the product they sell".  Claims that prices are higher because stuff is "newer" and "better"... that's a load of pucky... since prices are also higher for the stuff that is "old" and "the same", as well as stuff that s "newer" and "crap" like the new (and recently discontinued) Chaos possessed marines.

I am just using that as an overall example of new figs. I was using some of my old 80's orks to fill out some troops I needed in the new. They looked entirely like grots. Then I got out some old beakies. The new models look so much better.

I do agree that older models going up in price is bad, but when they do the whole "price band" thing, it happens. And I have most of the old models, if not two

I just find the hate thrown at the new Empire box sets to be a little over the top. Even being one piece poses the new box has more variety than the old, and more options. It also comes with a nice big standard and a lot of gubbins to vary up the models even more. The old poses look very static, and almost as bad as the one piece guys that came in the WHFB box. It is like the new Wraithlord kit to me. It is worth buying because of the look and options, though as I said. I only fronted my units out, and did that buying the cheaper box with three units in it that they initially released.

HBMC, I really do remember the days when this board was entirely different, and you said a lot of good things. I just haven't seen as many of late.

To Hellfury: Sorry, I could have swore you posted recently that you hadn't played 40k in years. I guess you made no such statement, then?

When I had read that (or thought I had read that,) I was just reminded of my buddies who had dropped out of the GW hobby, guys who loved to complain about every new thing GW did, but always pored over my latest WD or codex the second they came over. I always thought, man, we'd have so much more fun if we actually played the game then simply argued about the company.

BTW, I meant no insult when I wrote: "though he clearly loves to talk about it" I meant you actively discuss most aspects of the GW hobby, usually in a clear, insightful way (I like it when you scan in the actual rules in YMDC)

But if you do play regularly nowadays (I've definitely seen you posting about your WARMACHINE games,) I apologize, I made too broad of an assumption.

To nyarlathotep667: Sorry, I meant no personal attack in my statement - but I stand behind my remark -  I sift through most of Dakka's threads and you seem to frequent the ones that either show new models (from any company,) or discuss anything related to company policy (any company.)

I rarely (if ever,) see you discuss specifics about the game, going to tournaments/conventions,  army lists, leagues...etc. I could be wrong, as this is simply going off memory.

Again, if I assumed too much, and you do play/enjoy the game regularly, I'll admit that my statement was too broad, and I apologize. Good gaming! 

 

nyarlathotep667 must play! He knows the DA codex is bad...

Called out

Gamers love to *female dog*. It's a fact of life.

Nyarl: Baseless? It was only two months or so ago when you were repremanded for insulting people too often and too harshly. You are frequently scathing in your posts and it is ironic that you should constantly deride other people for doing something you do so often. It isn't a personal attack to point this out.

Toreador: It isn't just gamers. Cars are too expensive and fall apart too easily, gas is too expensive, new T.V.s are too expensive, milk is overpriced, and lets not forget computers!. Why back in my day of windows 3.1 we had to use dos on occasion, not like xp and its oversimplified rules. Honestly, ms paint is still a great unit and fluffy too but photoshop is far and away more points efficient.

For all of you that are jumping on Nyarly....none of you are any better.  All of you that are "complaining about complainers", get a life.  You are all mouth breathing sockpuppet douchenozzle GW fan bois.

Lets get back to the discussion.

Anybody ever looked at the new metal space marines? Stand them next to some good old Jes Goodwin sculpts from 2nd edition. Especially Tigurius, and the space marine veterans. The old metal marines had nice crisp detail of cabling where there arms attached under the shoulderpads, where as the new metal marines look like recasts of the plastics, but in metal.

Hell, Helbrecht's feet aren't even the same length!

Iorek, Crimson Devil - Agree completely. Whilst I think GW books (particularly anything from Forgeworld - Imperial Armour, anyone?) are sometimes hideously overpriced, fair is fair... and every download is one tiny little nail in our hobby's coffin.  

Also (and to be brutally honest), I much prefer reading "hardcopy" anyway. o

As for the recent point about "older" minis quality versus that of the newer miniatures...that's why I'm really only after the older Rogue Trader Marine stuff. Sure, some of it was terrible, but some was sheer genius...they had a lot more "character" or "soul" to them... (plus they don't have the price tag of some of today's models...box set of GK Terminators, for example.)

 

Posted By Toreador on 04/20/2007 7:42 AM
HBMC, I really do remember the days when this board was entirely different, and you said a lot of good things. I just haven't seen as many of late.

And what does that tell you?

I took off the rose-tinted glasses a long time, and saw GW, their prices and their idiotic rulesets for what they really were.

BYE

Posted By Wayfarer on 04/20/2007 10:12 AM
Toreador: It isn't just gamers. Cars are too expensive and fall apart too easily, gas is too expensive, new T.V.s are too expensive, milk is overpriced, and lets not forget computers!. Why back in my day of windows 3.1 we had to use dos on occasion, not like xp and its oversimplified rules. Honestly, ms paint is still a great unit and fluffy too but photoshop is far and away more points efficient.

Either that was an attempt at humour, or one of the worst attempted paralles in history...

BYE

Posted By Iorek on 04/20/2007 5:48 AM
Remember, downloading a codex you don't own is theft, plain and simple.

And every time GW 'adjusts prices', God kills a kitten. >

This is for all the silly fools who thought that GW raised the price of models due to the rising costs of oil....

$22 dollar codeii, lemme guess, the price of trees went up?

'wonk, wonk, wonk!'

Truthfully, paper and corrugated products have been rising very fast over the last 10 years. Don't know the reasons behind it, only know that every year my costs for comic boxes, backing boards, and paper retail bags have gone up at least 10%. One supplier told me he had a 25% increase in raw material cost hit him all at once. Items I paid 1.05 each have gone up to 2.25 each in about an 8 year period.

 

Clearly GWs prices aren't based on inflation, they have simply kept way too far ahead of the inflation rate for that to be true.

While the rising costs of materials has, I'm sure, had some impact on their prices, the real reason is that GW has always stayed on the cutting edge of charging what they can get away with, and they will obviously continue to do so until they are unequivically proven incorrect in their business model.

The fact is, GW has stood the test of time while many other companies have passed into history, filed bankruptcy or were bought by larger entities and we cannot rule out that this has been possible because of the premium price they charge for their products.

You see, even if GW was to drop the prices of their product by 50% today, would gamers continually (and sustainably) start buying more than twice as much product (more than twice as much to cover the loss of profit per item)?

I for one, would not. And that, I think is the problem.

You see, in many ways it might appear like I am the perfect GW customer. I have been buying their products for 15+ years and I have enough disposable income that I currently am not bothered by GW's prices; if I want something, I buy it, simple as that.

The problem is, I already have all the codices, I already have several armies, and I already have a backlog of unpainted miniatures to get to before I even think about buying any more models.

So what does GW make off of me, a very loyal customer with a lot of disposable income? Well, I buy 40k codices and the occasional paint and/or brush. Maybe once every five years or so I might plunk down $300-$500 and buy a whole new army, but in general the actual money I spend on GW on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis doesn't come close to what I spend on things I care much less about.

The point of all this is that GW makes a game that once you are established in it, you don't really have to spend all that much money to keep playing. The very nature of how long it takes someone to paint an army can (and often does) limit how often a player can and will make purchases.

So do I begrudge GW for charging a premium for their products? Nope because it is exactly what I would do if were running the company.

Have they gone too high with their prices to the point where they will drive away too many players to stay in business? Perhaps, but only time will tell for sure.

 

I think it was an attempt to evoke that old chestnut about how everyone views the past as better than it actually was.

I actually have never worn rose coloured glasses. But after spending 8 years in the military, I am pretty much inured to most things. It creates a very thick skin.

No rules set is perfect. Nothing fun is cheap. I don't have to spend my money or play games. It's simple.

Posted By Toreador on 04/21/2007 9:32 AM
Nothing fun is cheap. 

Well, paper airplanes are cheap.

But I like WH, 40k, and Warmachine enough to make the (substantial) cost difference acceptable to me.

Posted By yakface on 04/20/2007 9:59 PM

 

Clearly GWs prices aren't based on inflation, they have simply kept way too far ahead of the inflation rate for that to be true.

While the rising costs of materials has, I'm sure, had some impact on their prices, the real reason is that GW has always stayed on the cutting edge of charging what they can get away with, and they will obviously continue to do so until they are unequivically proven incorrect in their business model.

The fact is, GW has stood the test of time while many other companies have passed into history, filed bankruptcy or were bought by larger entities and we cannot rule out that this has been possible because of the premium price they charge for their products.

You see, even if GW was to drop the prices of their product by 50% today, would gamers continually (and sustainably) start buying more than twice as much product (more than twice as much to cover the loss of profit per item)?

I for one, would not. And that, I think is the problem.

You see, in many ways it might appear like I am the perfect GW customer. I have been buying their products for 15+ years and I have enough disposable income that I currently am not bothered by GW's prices; if I want something, I buy it, simple as that.

The problem is, I already have all the codices, I already have several armies, and I already have a backlog of unpainted miniatures to get to before I even think about buying any more models.

So what does GW make off of me, a very loyal customer with a lot of disposable income? Well, I buy 40k codices and the occasional paint and/or brush. Maybe once every five years or so I might plunk down $300-$500 and buy a whole new army, but in general the actual money I spend on GW on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis doesn't come close to what I spend on things I care much less about.

The point of all this is that GW makes a game that once you are established in it, you don't really have to spend all that much money to keep playing. The very nature of how long it takes someone to paint an army can (and often does) limit how often a player can and will make purchases.

So do I begrudge GW for charging a premium for their products? Nope because it is exactly what I would do if were running the company.

Have they gone too high with their prices to the point where they will drive away too many players to stay in business? Perhaps, but only time will tell for sure.

 

Bravo!

Yakface hit the nail on the head. GW's products are not price sensitive. If they increase prices, profits go up... to a point. Once they hit that point, they'll stop increasing the price.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Deadshane1 on 04/20/2007 7:55 PM

This is for all the silly fools who thought that GW raised the price of models due to the rising costs of oil....

$22 dollar codeii, lemme guess, the price of trees went up?

'wonk, wonk, wonk!'

Actually, you still have to use oil to cut the tree down, load it on a truck, drive it to a mill, offload it, then power the turbines to get the electricty to the mill to start the process of turning it into wood pulp for the paper. So yes, the price of trees did go up, and oil as well.

 

'wonk'

Not sure to agree with Yak's comment. Well written and all, but even if I recognize myself in the situation he describes, not all gamers are created equal - or at least, not at the same time.

The thing is that Yakface's purchase habits won't help GW stay afloat. No matter what they charge (and believe me, there are prices even us post-students won't swallow) I think veterans just don't buy enough, in overall quantities, to sustain the whole thing.

However, for newcomers, it's even worse. I've met plenty of would-be players playing with count-as miniatures, or creating sub-par lists, not out of fluff of lack of tactical ability, but simply because purchasing the army they wanted would have costed them too much. They were just in the process of being priced out of the game. And for each of those struggling youngsters, how many others just decided to pass on the game?

GW's money is made on impulsive buy. They make their butter when someone walks in a store and gets a whole army at once, along with books and paint and all. Problem is, nowadays it costs a month's rent - for the parents of the new player.

To me, the "disposable income" theory on which GW has based its business simply has its limit. I've even believed that they've encountered it already, especially at the hands of a growing competition (why do they seem to care to their rules recently?). Their profits are so-so. Worse even, they won't correct their fatal course just by lowering some prices at a point in time. It will take much more than that to restore customer confidence - many of them forever lost to competition.

Hell, the situation reached a point GW does not want veterans to communicate with young players (like it occurred from time to time on their board) just because formers were scaring the latters. How long can you survive with luxury prices, shrinking market share and bad reputation?

This is the part that's disturbing. Sure, Yak (and I, and some others) are essentially completely price insensitive. But if the overall pool of people to play against is reduced, then I, at least, am more likely to pick a different game...one where I still have opponents.

- On the issue of veterans and company sustainability

When I worked for GW, it was explained many times to me by my managers to cater to the "veterans" and to harp New Releases hard. The Chicago Battlebunker (the benchmark for the midwest region) made the majority of its sales off of New Releases and sold predominantly to veterans. This was two years ago.

- for Toreador, the man without fault, (or rose colored glasses)

What are you Jesus or something? Maybe you can't stop staring at yourself in the mirror every morning and recording your voice on tape so you can hear yourself talk, but the rest of us don't care how awesome you think you are. You are not an authority on the subject of the good old days, and even if you were, your opinion still doesn't matter.

Posted By Janthkin on 04/21/2007 2:33 PM

And for each of those struggling youngsters, how many others just decided to pass on the game?

This is the part that's disturbing. Sure, Yak (and I, and some others) are essentially completely price insensitive. But if the overall pool of people to play against is reduced, then I, at least, am more likely to pick a different game...one where I still have opponents.

There lies the rub.

Just because YOU can afford it, doesnt mean the majority of opponents will. GW was able to reach a wide audience in the late ninties early 00's and it seems to stifle somewhat.

Warmachine seems to be a great game for the "Hobby flavor", and still not scare newbs away (though you could easily spend as much if not more on warmachine as you would GW), but the smaller scale means a bit less cash spent.

The games that wargamer hobbyists make fun of are good because of the reason Janthkin listed. Such things as Pirates!, "X" clix game, etc have a very decent following as well, so opponents arent hard to find.

Yak is right about pricing, but I dont see people buying the new releases off of the shelves like I did in '97 for GW. Even eldar sold less than expected in minneapolis.

GW hasnt touched U.S. prices for anything other than codecies and starters. Nothing very unreasonable. You will notice that was all the U.S. got bumped with, while others saw eldrad rise to $25.

I hope GW realizes that they have reached or exceeded their ceiling here in the states. If not, then we can expect to see some $25 eldrads this time next year.

I'll poke my head in here and say that I'm buying less and less. And it's because I can't afford it, not because the game is so much less fun. (Fantasy that is)

Posted By Zoned on 04/20/2007 8:27 AM

To Hellfury: Sorry, I could have swore you posted recently that you hadn't played 40k in years. I guess you made no such statement, then?

When I had read that (or thought I had read that,) I was just reminded of my buddies who had dropped out of the GW hobby, guys who loved to complain about every new thing GW did, but always pored over my latest WD or codex the second they came over. I always thought, man, we'd have so much more fun if we actually played the game then simply argued about the company.

BTW, I meant no insult when I wrote: "though he clearly loves to talk about it" I meant you actively discuss most aspects of the GW hobby, usually in a clear, insightful way (I like it when you scan in the actual rules in YMDC)

But if you do play regularly nowadays (I've definitely seen you posting about your WARMACHINE games,) I apologize, I made too broad of an assumption.

To nyarlathotep667: Sorry, I meant no personal attack in my statement - but I stand behind my remark -  I sift through most of Dakka's threads and you seem to frequent the ones that either show new models (from any company,) or discuss anything related to company policy (any company.)

I rarely (if ever,) see you discuss specifics about the game, going to tournaments/conventions,  army lists, leagues...etc. I could be wrong, as this is simply going off memory.

Again, if I assumed too much, and you do play/enjoy the game regularly, I'll admit that my statement was too broad, and I apologize. Good gaming! 

 

Maybe you had a bit of eye-shock. I assumed Hellfury's avatar on a
lark, and so maybe you read a post I made about not having played
Warhammer 40k in years. I've played Necromunda recently, but I
can't really get jazzed about assembling/painting an army for a game
I hardly play and fail to enjoy playing.

So to recap: I haven't played 40k in years and my avatar is the same
as Hellfury's (just hosted in a different place so that our skulls don't
sync up all the time)

 

I do so love the price arguements.

I saw a price arguement elsewhere, and the attacker pretty much conceded that other miniatures games figures cost the same, except for GW command models, and that GW should lower prices because you needed more figures to play.

I guess that also means people who buy luxury cars should get gas cheaper or SUV's should have a gas discount or something...

 

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/22/2007 6:58 PM
I saw a price arguement elsewhere, and the attacker pretty much conceded that other miniatures games figures cost the same, except for GW command models, and that GW should lower prices because you needed more figures to play.

I remember that the 'argument' was shot to pieces.

Nothing justifies the price increases GW has made. Why the same model can cost twice as much as it did a few years ago, or why a box for $35 can have it's contents halved but it's price reduced by a 3rd, cannot be justified.

BYE

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/22/2007 6:58 PM

I saw a price arguement elsewhere, and the attacker pretty much conceded that other miniatures games figures cost the same, except for GW command models, and that GW should lower prices because you needed more figures to play.

What are you smoking?

Look at the prices for Napoleonic or various ancient armies (using non-manufacturer specific rules like DBA).

It's entirely feasible to buy an entire army of several hundred miniatures (or more depending on the scale) for the price of 2 GW regiment/squad boxes.


If you like GW better because of the rules/models/fluff/availability, that's fine. Those are the reasons why most people here play. You can't argue that the price of GW miniatures is anything near comparable to the price/model of historical games (even including FoW).

Another thing to toss into the mix. The US Government has been doing much to devalue the Dollar against almost every foreign currency out there. This is done with the reasoning that foreign investment is good and helps the economy here. The problem is, this means less revenue for foreign companies that sell products in the USA. These companies either have to eat the loss (not likely) or find some way of regaining that revenue - usually by increasing prices.

I'm not saying that this is a factor in GW's reasoning or strategy and should the US Dollar strengthen I'll not be holding my breath for a price reduction.

I hate to point this out, but the US already pays less than the majority of the other regions:

Space Marine Tactical Squad

USA - $35 USD
UK - 18 GBP - $36.06 USD +3.0%
FRA- 25 EUR - $34.02 USD -2.8%
CAN- $45 CAD - $39.90 USD +14.0%
OZ - $50 AU- $41.77 USD +19.3%

Whee!

The disparity gets worse with the "battleforces" since US region dropped prices back down to $90 while they stayed the same or went up in other regions.  I also think it is funny that there is a 14% difference in price between two adjacent regions.  I guess GW thinks that we can't do math in Soviet Kanukistan

I have to agree about pricing as compared to some other wargame miniature companies. A few years ago, I got into some WWII miniature games that were in the 28mm range. I admit that I started playing after I saw Band of Brothers, so started an airborne unit, complete with supporting vehicles.

All told I have two full platoons of airborne (including carbines, rifles, tommy guns, bazookas, BAR's, .30 and .50 cal machineguns, command types and specialists like mine detectors and radio operators) all in white metal, 2 M4A3 Shermans, 2 M10 Tank Destroyers, and four M8 (I think) half tracks. All the vehicles are in resin.

I spent less than $200 on eight resin vehicles and approximately 80 metal troops. The metal troops averaged less than $2 apiece.

So, what exactly is it that GW is doing so wrong that their costs of production can justify charging 5 times as much, especially since they probably sell more volume than a niche WWII recreation game that doesn't have the marketing strength that GW has?

Sal

I see the issue from several points of view.
As an adult and a player I got hooked years ago, and frankly will probably be buying GW stuff whenever the shiney new stuff is pretty enough -- at least as long as the 40K community in my area hangs together.
But as a parent, it's a different story. When I consider buying stuff for my kids and nephews/nieces, it's just too expensive. My wife kind of quashed the idea -- and you know what? She's right. GW's prices just don't fit into our discretionary present/indulgence-for-the-kids budget.

Which means GW can continue to string me along. But the chain stops with me.
And that, in turn, brings me back to the idea that I will continue playing only "as long as the 40K community in my area hangs together." How long can that be, if parents aren't bringing new kids into the hobby?
Short term, demand may seem inelastic.
But long term, I really do think GW has reached, and crossed, a ceiling.

I'm not a whiner. I do love the game and the hobby. Still play, still buy.
But I'm concerned. Really.

And everyone has an opinion WhiteDragon, and we all state it on Dakka freely. To make a discussion it takes more than one side.

Now get off my lawn.

The money spent doesn't really concern me. I spend much more on stupider stuff. Hell, just calculating what I spend eating out in a month is depressing.

People spend what they are willing. The biggest issue with GW in our part of the woods are the rules. WM took over primarily because everyone could play out a game with any army and had a chance of winning. Too many armies in 40k can't do this. There are too many lists that can't even compete well even in a fun game. There are too many holes in the rules, and they aren't FAQ'd in a timely manner. Still too many ambiguities.

We still buy things here and there when warranted, but we play less and have had to house rule a lot of things to create more balanced play. But overall there are fewer vets playing. Without the vets playing the newer kids don't see the cool toys as much at the shop and aren't buying as much. Saturday night used to be 40k night, but now instead of that it is Wow and some WM.

Prices are really secondary to fun play. People will do what they can to play a game if it is fun. But there really isn't much fun in it anymore for many of the people, vets and newbies alike. It's a downward spiral. GW has a lot to do in a short time to bring people back in or they are going to move on. Sales at our shop for 40k is down to 1/3 what it used to be. It's not because of the models (because they have been releasing some very nice stuff), or much about the prices. It is because people don't play the game as much anymore. It's the problem we have always had with Confrontation. The people didn't like the game all that much, but they loved the figs. There were pretty expensive figs to just to buy and paint, but people had bunches of them. Yet I never saw anyone else play a game.

Posted By Toreador on 04/23/2007 9:50 AM

Prices are really secondary to fun play. People will do what they can to play a game if it is fun.

I totally agree what you say about veterans and their cool toys, but price is a barrier to those entering the hobby.  In a vaccum, someone looking at guys playing Warhammer and guys playing Warmachine - assuming comparable interest, might be swayed to go the Warmachine way only because:

1.  You can buy a starter kit with your army of choice and prime remix for $5cdn more than the 40k base rulebook (or battle for McCragge, if you fancy SM or Tyranids).
2.  You can build a competitive army for the price of a battleforce and a codex.
3.  You can buy pretty much every option within a faction (or three 500 point armies) for the price of a tournament sized 40k army.

Kids will sooner spend their alowance on a warjack or solo (or -insert instant gratification here- ) that they can afford rather than save up to buy that Monolith they've been itching to use...

Fun is part of the equation for sure, but so is value.

I do agree. Both sides feed off of each other.

Yep, and value is why we haven't been getting a lot of people into WM either. They have been playing a lot of 750 and 1000pt games, and that is quite a bit of money. WM just seems cheaper.

You know, really looking around, there isn't much at all cheap anymore. I was goofing around last weekend just looking for a new game, and I couldn't justify getting into anything. I couldn't get into many games without plopping down at least $50. Which seems to be the price point for a lot of video games.

Torreador:  Well, WM is model / model roughly on par with GW in terms of pricing.  I do not deny that.  GW's product structure has a fairly steep "start up" cost.  Once the systems get going, addons are about the same price...

Keep in mind I am deliberately ignoring E-bay and secondary markets, and looking at this from a FLGS atmosphere point of view.

40k Startup Cost (CAD dollars)
$75 - Rulebook/McCragge
$130 - Battleforce of choice
$30 - Codex of choice
$20 - HQ model of choice - since most battleforces are not playable out of the box
--------
$255

Granted, I give you that following armies once the rulebook has been purchased only have a startup of $180.

Warmachine/Hordes Startup Cost
$60 - Starterbox
$25 - Prime Remix - optional
--------
$60/$85

So... 40k has a 2-4.25x more expensive startup cost.

What about % of 500 point (WM) / 1000 point (40k) readiness?

A battleforce + HQ usually nets around 500 points.  So you're half way there.  A WM/Hordes starter is around 300 points, so you're a bit past half... so reasonable parity, considering that both starter "kits" as it stands, contains stuff that you may not use.

It is hard to convince parents to buy any more than $150 at a time... and even harder to tell them that the $150 doesn't get them anything usable without buying more stuff.  Let's face it, a rulebook, a codex and a squad of gaunts doesn't give a brand new Tyranid player anything close to playable.  The 40k/Fantasy starter kits are a step in the right direction, but unless you play the "featured" armies, they're not terribly helpful to the beginner...

As a veteran wargamer, I find it hard to recommend 40k / Fantasy over WM / Hordes to kids / parents on a budget, mostly because of this investment... (especially since kids these days have such short attention spans!)

Posted By Taoofss on 04/16/2007 8:44 PM
People still buy codex/rule books? I though most people dl them for BT. BTW the DA book is out on BT also.

wow, either yo have some big brass ones or you head is full of rocks.. take the copyright infringement crap offline.. 

 

can someone just delete any reply to and including this guys reference?

I was wondering why your prices were so high. Candian or something there

I still recommend the starter boxes of WHFB and 40k. They are good buys for a pair of kids, and give you a lot to play with. You don't really need to play with more than that.

I can't really recommend any of these games to anyone on a budget.

Posted By keezus on 04/23/2007 9:02 AM

Space Marine Tactical Squad
USA - $35 USD
UK - 18 GBP - $36.06 USD +3.0%
FRA- 25 EUR - $34.02 USD -2.8%
CAN- $45 CAD - $39.90 USD +14.0%
OZ - $50 AU- $41.77 USD +19.3%

Which makes it pretty clear why our group just put a AUD$1500 order through the US store. The stuff would've cost us over AUD$2000 had we bought it here. When it's US$1 for AUD$1.20, it's a good time to buy.

BYE

Posted By keezus on 04/23/2007 9:02 AM

USA - $35 USD
UK - 18 GBP - $36.06 USD +3.0%
FRA- 25 EUR - $34.02 USD -2.8%
CAN- $45 CAD - $39.90 USD +14.0%
OZ - $50 AU- $41.77 USD +19.3%

Seems a little funny to me that the country with the top stores in earnings also have the lowest prices.  A little lower, but lower nonetheless.  I don't have the list in front of me, but I know that a few of those Paris shops are always in the top 10 and one shop is always 1 or 2 on the list.

 

Kotrin, Tinfoil, et al. -- I know that I'm not necessarily the typical GW gamer and I understand that to many (especially potential new GW gamers) price is a huge issue. The question is, have GW's prices reached the level where they kill the influx of new gamers to the point where the community actually disintegrates? I certainly haven't seen it yet, but the reality may indeed be around the corner.

Also, whenever I say to myself:  "how can kids these days afford to play GW", I turn around and see kids with a PS3 or Xbox 360 and I realize that kids these days seem to have access to way more money than I did at that age.

 

I also want to mention that I think Warmachine is in the 'golden age' that new games go through. However, eventually all miniature games reach a saturation point where the core audience has purchased all of the miniatures they need to play the game and their purchases dip considerably.

At this point, a company only really has 6 choices to keep the established gamers buying more product:

1) Keep introducing new units for existing factions.

2) Keep introducing new factions to the game.

3) Change the relative strengths of existing units thereby necessitating the purchase of previously useless units. This can be done either by releasing a completey new set of core rules or by altering the units' individual rules.

4) Re-design models for existing factions that get players to replace their models solely for aesthetic reasons.

5) Change the core rules (or release expansions) that allow players to use more models at once.

6) Release an entirely new type of game.

 

GW has had used all six of these techniques to keep their business alive over the years, but all six have some serious negative consequences.

Using # 1 & 2 can and will eventually overwhelm any game system. At some point adding more units or factions to the game means the company will have to abandon existing factions. Doing this naturally alienates players who have collected those factions that get eliminated. Also adding more and more units to each faction eventually means some units in the faction have to be eliminated or consolidated in order to keep the rules and miniature line manageable.

#3 breeds resentment as players' existing units decrease in relative usefulness compared to the units that are changed to be more powerful/usefull.

#4 is the technique that irks the fewest players, but also is the least effective (from a business sense) as any player who doesn't think the re-designed models are sufficiently 'cooler' won't bother buying new versions of them.

#5 Is what GW did with 40k with 2nd and 3rd edition. The big problem with this change is that it makes the start-up costs for new players so much higher (as they now need more models to play the basic game).

#6 has a couple of problems. First, if the new game isn't a hit, the company will be stuck with a financial failure dragging down their 'main' game. Second, if the company stops releasing new things for their original game (they consider it 'done') many players don't want to be involved with a game that doesn't have constant updates.

 

Warmachine hasn't reached the saturation point yet and they won't for many years. However at some point there will be too many factions and units to add anymore and most of the core audience will already own most of the miniatures they want to play the game.

At that point PP will have to start making some of the tough decisions that GW has made in the 20+ years they've been in the business.

 

On the subject of start up costs:

WARMACHINE is definitely cheaper, but GW has the edge in that it has deeper market penetration and is generally better supported. Obviously, one of the mark ups that affect GW's prices is the overheads they pay for their extensive Retail chain - something most table top wargame companies don't have.

A parent can buy a starter box for 40k/WHFB and be reassured that a) the store will take the time to teach their kid how to paint and play and b) the store will provide a place to meet other kids who play as well and c) the store will provide a bunch of events that their kid can enjoy. Privateer Press has to rely on FLGS (some good, some bad,) to do that support for them.

Hell, I was at my FLGS the other day, trying out my new Cygnar versus a buddy of mine. A kid was building his Menoth models and watching us play. He asked me after if I could teach him, since the store owner couldn't make time do to so.

On the subject of veterans:

I bought my 500pt Cygnar army in one shot, without plumping for the Cygnar starter (didn't want Stryker or the Lancer,) and I was pleasantly surprised when it all came to a little over a GW Battleforce. But after building it all and playing a few games, I realized I missed someting that 40k provided - scale! I thought it was funny that my tournament sized force was less than 20 models, I missed fielding 60 odd figures and 3-4 support vehicles. WARMACHINE plays better at the skirmish level it was designed for, but despite all it's rule flaws, 40k play better at the company level it was designed for. So while GW games are more expensive, you've got more cool models to show for it too. And besides, who really stops their WARMACHINE faction at 500pts...I'm already thinking of changing my caster to Siege and my Ironclad to a Defender...

Zoned

Actually, that's why I was looking into other games that involved vehicles
and such. I want a game with scale but I still love having all the rules
options that you have in War/Hordes.

Yak, you are right but forgot at least 3 other possibilities (none of them exclusive)

7) improve "side orders": sell brushes, paint, modelling stuff and scenery. Other market players try this now, and GW is entering the scenery sale at a slow pace. I really think it's a huge demand awaiting.

8) expand the gaming base: advertise, sell in newer retail chains, etc. Who ever carved in stone that wargaming had to stay forever a "niche" market?

9) cut costs. Some people don't like this labour cost comparison, but I fail to understand why it's morally superior to pay higher a guy in England than another one in India for the same result. Apart from their printed stuff, GW has always been producing everything in high-wages countries, and I don't see this as a requirement. Even if it was for customs reasons in the EU, there are plenty of countries in the east of Europe where wages can't compare with UK and who are part of the EU anyway.

And finally, there's always the prepainted path, but it requires a paradigm shift for elitist game publishers so it might not happen soon.

Kotrin:

On #8: I would argue that as long as the hobby requires time and skill to assemble and paint the miniatures it can never escape the niche market. There are only so many people who would be willing to spend X amount of hours cleaning and painting models to play a game even if they thought the game was cool enough to play.

On #9: I could ramble on about why I believe it is morally and ethically superior to pay your workers a fair wage but ultimately that's a whole other (big) topic. Suffice to say, I'm one of those people who thoroughly applauds GW for sticking with English labour and will gladly eat the increased price for that business practice.


And you mention the pre-painted route and I've been thinking a lot about that recently. It occured to me that the primary thing (as I mentioned before) keeping me from spending a heck of a lot more on GW products is simply because of how long it takes me to paint them.

If GW were to go the pre-painted route and then slash their prices I think they would do huge, huge business. For example, if I could go buy an army today and put it on the table and play with it tommorrow I would probably drop like 2 grand immediately. I'd love to suddenly have a Tau, Dark Eldar and sisters of battle army to play with.

Posted By Zoned on 04/23/2007 7:41 PM

And besides, who really stops their WARMACHINE faction at 500pts...I'm already thinking of changing my caster to Siege and my Ironclad to a Defender...

Haha... well, who stops their 40k army at 1700/1850 for that matter?

Posted By yakface on 04/23/2007 7:41 PM

Kotrin, Tinfoil, et al. -- I know that I'm not necessarily the typical GW gamer and I understand that to many (especially potential new GW gamers) price is a huge issue. The question is, have GW's prices reached the level where they kill the influx of new gamers to the point where the community actually disintegrates? I certainly haven't seen it yet, but the reality may indeed be around the corner.

<<SNIP>>

I also want to mention that I think Warmachine is in the 'golden age' that new games go through. However, eventually all miniature games reach a saturation point where the core audience has purchased all of the miniatures they need to play the game and their purchases dip considerably.

<<SNIP>>

Warmachine hasn't reached the saturation point yet and they won't for many years. However at some point there will be too many factions and units to add anymore and most of the core audience will already own most of the miniatures they want to play the game.

QFT!

ALthough I think WARMACHINE still deserve plaudits for introducing a game that is at last challenging GW's dominance.  It may not last forever, but it has not been achieved before - SST, Urban War, Confrontation etc., never achieved this level, let alone sustained it.

You also mention the phenomenon that many gamers need the constant supply of new figures to maintain their interest in a game.  This is surely true.  I really don't understand it, but it is certainly true that many are attracted to the "NEW KEWL" just because it is "NEW" and for no other reason.  Never understood it myself, but it seems to come with the territory.

Anyhow, it will certainly be interesting to see how PP cope with continued expansion - and ehther they succeed where GW appears to be beginning to fail.

Posted By yakface on 04/24/2007 4:57 AM

If GW were to go the pre-painted route and then slash their prices I think they would do huge, huge business. For example, if I could go buy an army today and put it on the table and play with it tommorrow I would probably drop like 2 grand immediately. I'd love to suddenly have a Tau, Dark Eldar and sisters of battle army to play with.

And this is the "price insensitivity" issue at play.  Personally I can't imagine anything as trivial as a wargame being worth my dumping $2k on it in one go.  It's not a question of shortage of funds, I could certainly afford to do that if I wanted, but on priorities for that money - there are other things I'd rather do than spend it on toy soldiers.  Personally I allocate a certain amount every month for "immediate personal gratification" and generally speaking don't exceed it.  So if the price of toy soldiers rises, I buy fewer, or cheaper toy soldiers.

Each to their own of course.  But I suspect that while there are many for whom dropping large sums of money on the hobby is not an issue, there are many more who are at the margin and find prices rising faster than their available budget to be a challenge to their enjoyment.

I hardly ever drop huge sums on any game. I do the whole, buy a little something every paycheck approach. Over time it builds up a lot of models and in the slow trickle I don't notice in the end how much I am really spending. Even in my college days I did the same approach. Buy a pack of figs when I had the money. Buy ramen noodles and really cheap beer to live on.

Actually I applaud PP for making a game that lasts. I don't know how many systems I have had over the year that are now gone. I hope both companies can last.

Me too, I hope neither fails. I don't understand the glee of some posters when it appears GW is failing.
It makes me sad, and a little angry, mostly because I reckon I could do that sort of thing if I had to.

Posted By yakface on 04/24/2007 4:57 AM

I could ramble on about why I believe it is morally and ethically superior to pay your workers a fair wage but ultimately that's a whole other (big) topic.

I wasn't speaking of an unfair wage when evoking India (or any other country for that matter), simply of a cheaper wage in British Pound equivalent - not locally. No one would be starving. If GW employed chinese people with *exactly* the same benefits, purchase power and social advantages currently offered to its UK employees, they would *still* save an incredible amount of money in the process, simply because of the difference in the cost of living between England and China.

It's not like I'd see Jervis or Jes Goodwin heading for Shanghai, but for production being based in the UK makes no sense.

PM me if you want to discuss this topic a bit more

But you know, none of this answers the post I placed earlier.

How come companies like Devildog Design and Black Tree Design Ltd. and compare to GW.

For example, GW "Tomb Kings skeleton regiment" of 16 models for 18 pounds. The Black Tree "Skeleton Scythe Fighters" of 18 models for 13.84 pounds. For some reason, GW has to sell their minis for 1.125 pounds apiece, whereas Black Tree sells theirs for .768. The difference runs the same up and down the list. You can even look at the plastics. Compare a box of eight plastic CSM in the US to a box of WWII plastic model soldiers; the kind made to accompany tanks in dioramas and such. The GW box is $25, the models have relatively few pieces and relatively few bits for customization. Compare that to Tamiya's "WWII German Infantry on Maneouvers" box set. The Tamiya set contains 15 models with more pieces, more little bits for customization (like canteens, knives, satchels, pistols, grenades, etc), are in a larger scale, and better quality. That box comes in at $13.

I'll be honest and blunt. I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for GW to have to raise prices. Other companies do it cheaper while getting by with less volume. Normally, high volume means you can charge less per unit, but that doesn't seem to be working for GW.

Anyway, I'm a little miffed and a little hung over so I'm not making as much sense as I'd like

Later!

Sal

Posted By Saldiven on 04/24/2007 8:30 AM
But you know, none of this answers the post I placed earlier.

How come companies like Devildog Design and Black Tree Design Ltd. and compare to GW.

For example, GW "Tomb Kings skeleton regiment" of 16 models for 18 pounds. The Black Tree "Skeleton Scythe Fighters" of 18 models for 13.84 pounds. For some reason, GW has to sell their minis for 1.125 pounds apiece, whereas Black Tree sells theirs for .768. The difference runs the same up and down the list. You can even look at the plastics. Compare a box of eight plastic CSM in the US to a box of WWII plastic model soldiers; the kind made to accompany tanks in dioramas and such. The GW box is $25, the models have relatively few pieces and relatively few bits for customization. Compare that to Tamiya's "WWII German Infantry on Maneouvers" box set. The Tamiya set contains 15 models with more pieces, more little bits for customization (like canteens, knives, satchels, pistols, grenades, etc), are in a larger scale, and better quality. That box comes in at $13.

I'll be honest and blunt. I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for GW to have to raise prices. Other companies do it cheaper while getting by with less volume. Normally, high volume means you can charge less per unit, but that doesn't seem to be working for GW.

Anyway, I'm a little miffed and a little hung over so I'm not making as much sense as I'd like

Later!

Sal

Let's do a comparison...

1 Box of 10 Space Marines......35.
1 box of 6 Cygnar Stormguard....MSRP 36.99.

points goto GW

Cygnar Captain Haley....5.59
Space Marine Captain....15.00 ( but you get extra parts for other figures. You can make several figs or modify several with the parts.)

points: Draw (IMHO)

Confrontation...The Red Lioness....32.00.
GW...The Green Knight......30.00

points......GW

Guards of Alahan (3)....13.00
Brettonian Men At Arms (16)....35.00

13 x5= 65.00 ( to get 15 guys)

points.....GW

Reaper Men of Arms of Anhur (4)....12.99
Bret Men at Arms (16).......35.00

12.99 X 4= 51.96

points GW.

Mellonir Windrunner....3.69
Average Wood Elf Lord....12.00

Points...Reaper.

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Erm... why not?

The major systems have very strong support. I see FoW being played at least as often as GW at my FLGS.

Besides which, there's plenty of historical models that make great Empire, Bretonnian, DoW or even Chaos troops. Perfectly usable and in-scale (maybe a little smaller than GW, but not enough to be noticeable).

Not sure I buy into the whole 'I need more figures so it's worse value' argument that gets trawled out all the time. Personally, I need about 2500 more french to get my Borodino army completed, this doesn't mean I slam historical companies for me spending over $5000 on an army.
I play GW, WM and countless other games at levels I can afford and get me excited about playing them.
Back on topic, this price rise certainly hasn't got me worked up, and I see a few more GW armies looming on my horizon.

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality. 

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part  time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

Posted By Zoned on 04/24/2007 7:12 PM

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality. 

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part  time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus.  And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth.  I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest.  I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota.  I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic.  If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

To thegrognard: I wasn't commenting on how much GW retail makes in terms as profit, I was pointing out that GW has more overheads than other table top wargaming companies, which partly explains why GW's models cost what they do.

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

Posted By keezus on 04/25/2007 7:16 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

That's exactly my point.  It is amazing what happens to prices for relatively similar items from different producers if one of those producers starts calling themselves a "gaming company" or some such.

We've already looked at miniatures, now lets look at accessories.

Paints.  GW paints are, what $2 US for 1/3 ounce?  CeramCoat paints are available for about $1.5 for 2 full ounces.  Don't get on me about quality; CeramCoat is available at Michaels and is the kind of paint made for art students to use on hard surfaces.  Perfectly acceptable quality, except their yellow doesn't cover for crap.  Also, my bottle of Black and White paints from them are over 3 years old and still liquid.

Brushes.  Look at the GW brushes at your FLGS and then compare them to the prices for higher quality brushes at an art supply store.

The GW tape measure is ridiculously flimsy, but costs about what you'd pay for one from Lowe's or Home Depot that construction contractors buy for their business use.

This isn't just limited to GW.  Valejo paints market themselves to gamers, but their quality is no higher than a decent acrylic paint you could buy for 1/3 the price at an art store.

Now, I actually put my money where my mouth is.  In the last five years, I have actually spent about $200 on items from "gaming companies," like GW, PP, etc.  The majority of what I have purchased have been second hand (ebay, etc), trade, or art supply/hobby store.  The only reason I spent that $200 is because I finally broke down and started my first new army since 2000.

I'm amazed that GW thinks that consistently raising prices without increasing quality of product is a good business model.  I am pretty sure that model prices have increased by almost 75-100% on average since 2000, which is way above inflation, and unspeakably above any increase in quality.

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Sal

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Oh, never, doesn't sound like that at all. Were A's too expensive to use this morning?

lmao

Full points to Mikhaila!

 

Ask an honest GW employee and they will tll you that GW tape measures, glues etc are sold for convenience. That is...you buy a starter set, get home, you don't have glue to put them together, you either wait or go to a store to buy some. Factor in the gas and time spent, and that amounts to the same price as the horrible GW glues. Same with the primers etc.

The paints on the other hand are perfectly fine.

I have Winsor Newton sable brushes that are better, and have lasted 2 years. They also cost 2-3 times the amount of GW brushes ( which suck and are overpriced IMHO).

 

Hey, Mines of Moria went up $5.

Not you too, Mines of Moria!

Posted By keezus on 04/25/2007 7:16 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

As I stated in my post, historicals are cheaper. And there is a broad price change across the board. GW figures are not the cheapest, nor are they the most expensive.

What exactly makes them wacked out?

Look at other industries...car manufacturers for example...why do we have cars that cost 10K to own, and others that cost 30, 40 and 50K or more?

What about restaurants.....why are there steak houses where you can spend 40 bucks on dinner for two, or 100 bucks?

Is there some magical price index that says what you should have to pay for an item, and anything higher is wacked? Is there some unknown or unwritten law that says a company has an obligation or owes something to customers to provide them with goods that fits the customer's budget, at the company's detriment?

Posted By Asmodai on 04/24/2007 3:43 PM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Erm... why not?

The major systems have very strong support. I see FoW being played at least as often as GW at my FLGS.

Besides which, there's plenty of historical models that make great Empire, Bretonnian, DoW or even Chaos troops. Perfectly usable and in-scale (maybe a little smaller than GW, but not enough to be noticeable).

Tournament play, and the only places I have to game at are GW owned.

Posted By thegrognard on 04/24/2007 7:21 PM

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus.  And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth.  I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest.  I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota.  I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic.  If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

I've heard the Paris store isn't tops anymore, and that G-dub is planning on doubling its stores nationwide.

We used to joke about the GW Tape Measure.

It's identical in every way to a tape measure you can get for $1 at Dollarama.

Why is it $12?

Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

Each one contains a little bit of Rick Priestly's soul.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/25/2007 8:25 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

Each one contains a little bit of Rick Priestly's soul.

BYE

Limited Edition, then?

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
We used to joke about the GW Tape Measure.

It's identical in every way to a tape measure you can get for $1 at Dollarama.

Why is it $12?

Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

And why do Nachos cost $7 at a baseball game when the same exact thing costs $2 at a Seven-Eleven?

Because of convience and they can get away with it.

If someone forgets to bring their tape measure to the GW store when they're there to play a game, how much is it worth to the player to pick up a GW tape measure without the hassle of driving to a hardware store to buy a generic one? Apparently, right around $12.

 

I don't get why people keep asking what justifies their prices. Any good business is going to set their prices as high as they can and still get away with it. GW is no different.

There is a reason why GW has stayed in business for so long and that is because they've always charged the most they can and still get away with it.

Obviously at some point they may no longer be able to get away with such astronomical increases, but that is the reasoning behind the pricing and I don't understand why that is so hard to fathom.

 

 

Posted By thegrognard on 04/24/2007 7:21 PM

Posted By Zoned on 04/24/2007 7:12 PM

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality. 

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part  time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus.  And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth.  I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest.  I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota.  I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic.  If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

It is suprising.

I use the Light rail from there everyday on my way to work at the airport, and Airtraffic is still there (amongst other places like burnsville).

If Lego can have a neat little spot in the middle of things on the first floor where you can buy individual pieces by the cup full, then youd imagine that GW would have a shop there.

But to be honest, I never got to the airtraficc in the mall of america. I go to the burnsville center. Much friendlier and tons more space. Airtraffic has a tiny cubby in the mall of america (like most other shops there) so its a buy your stuff and leave sort of affair. That and their staff is entirely too agressive. I go in there and the first thing out of my mouth is "Leave me alone, I know what I want and I dont care if you play orcs". its neccessary because I go in there ALOT and the guy never seems to remember that I am a dicerning cudtomer and I  am not interested in the bosses push prduct for the week.

A GW shop would be the same, but atleast a GW shop would allow you to play there....

You used to be cool, Yak.

No, scratch that. You were never cool.

Posted By mikhaila on 04/25/2007 2:44 PM

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Oh, never, doesn't sound like that at all. Were A's too expensive to use this morning?

Haha! Brilliant!

Pwned!

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/25/2007 7:43 PM

Look at other industries...car manufacturers for example...why do we have cars that cost 10K to own, and others that cost 30, 40 and 50K or more?

What about restaurants.....why are there steak houses where you can spend 40 bucks on dinner for two, or 100 bucks?

Take cover! It's the Porsche argument!

I don't know if I buy that argument anymore. It's not the best. It's the
best marketed so it's easy to find opponents.

Listen to Yakface! He is full of wisdom... and assorted candies!

GW is going to keep upping the prices until they see a drop off in sales they consider to be effecting (or is that affecting?) the core market. Remember, higher prices mean they need to sell less product. They can afford to lose the fringe folks.

If peopl eare really pissed off about the price increases then they need to STOP buying GW products. Vote with your wallets. That is the only thing that will ever influence GW. I am a total secondary market kind of guy.... it's all trading or ebay.

ender502

Could someone please explain why they try to use the GW retail chain to justify their massive price increases? If each individual shop doesn't, at least, sustain itself, GW should do what any retail chain would do. GW should CLOSE THE SHOP. There's no justification for price increases due to a large retail chain.

It's really simple. GW raises prices because they think they can get more money than they're currently getting for the same product. Do I begrudge them for it? No, but I don't buy their product anyway.

I buy my gaming products from Privateer Press, who sell their models at a range of prices, just like GW. If you want to do a compairison...

Troops
10 Space Marines $35 (3.50 each)
10 Mecanithralls $41 (4.10 each)
10 Revenant Pirates $46 (4.60 each)
10 Assault Marines $50 (5.00 each)
10 Bane Knights $66 (6.60 each)
10 Veteran Marines $70 (7.00 each)
10 Bane Thralls $75 (7.50 each)
10 Terminators $100 (10.00 each)

Light vehicle/cavalry
5 Space Marine Bikes $45 (15 each)
5 Iron Fang Uhlans $100 (20 each)
Space Marine Attack Bike $25
Rhino/Land Speeder $30
Typhoon/Razorback/Tornado $35

Warjack/Dreadnought
1 Iron Clad $25
1 Storm Clad $28
1 Hammersmith $30
1 Centurian $32
1 Dreadnought $40
1 Thunderhead $45
1 Venarable Dreadnought $50

Character
Severius $10
Salamanders Chaplain Xavier $11
High Reclaimer $12
Testament of Menoth $15
Space Marine commander/chaplain/librarian $15
Ultramarines Chief Librarian Tigurius $17
Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists $20
Chaplain Grimaldus and Retinue $30
Harbringer of Menoth $35 (oh noes!)
Marneus Calgar with Honor Guard $45

There really is no saying that GWs models are cheaper, or that PPs models are cheaper. Both companies sell their products at a range of prices and neither of them is really cheap. It IS less expensive to build an army of PP models, than it is to buy an army of GW models, but GW games require many more models for an army.

When it comes right down to it, people will spend what they're willing to spend on their hobby, no matter what. That's all there is to it.

Knight

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/25/2007 7:43 PM

What exactly makes them wacked out?

I dunno... how about LOTR being legitimate value compared to Warhammer / WH40k despite being manufactured using the same sculpting, moulding and casting techniques?

All the old chestnuts of how GW product is superior to competing products don't apply in this case since the source is the same!  Is LOTR product somehow second rate?  Maybe they're less pieces... but the WH/WH40k "fill in boxes" of snap-tite figures are even more expensive than the regular regiments... (I guess to make up for the extra quality and bitz!).  GW sells LOTR product anywhere between 2-3x less expensive on a per model basis despite being identical in quality...

But I suppose In your world, that wouldn't indicate that Warhammer is overpriced in the least...  Its probably an accounting error.

I assume you're referring to the LOTR plastics. These are a lot smaller than the models in WH, and generally one piece sculpts. Less pieces, smaller pieces, means a lot less cost to manufacture the molds for them. Nice models, and I have several hundred of them, but I'd never use a 1 dollar urakai for a 2 dollar black orc. Each is a good scale for it's respective games.

Mikhaila: 

Those are the ones I am refering to.  While it is true that some of the LOTR sculpts are very small and weedy - especially the plastic moria goblins, the man sized models are fantastic.  The High Elves from the original box set and the Easterlings have fantastic detail (even if they were intentionally made size incompatible with the main set).

One of my pet peeves about how GW is packaging their current lines is the huge amount of extra gubbinz that they add to the sprues... and then they give the party line:  You pay more because we give you extra gubbinz!

You get less boyz because we put the gubbinz where the boyz could have been!

You pay for the gubbinz regardless of if you used them or not!

If you are converting... because the gubbin is now plastic... you have to BUY THE SPRUE.  (The old arguement about trading for those bitz is always an option, but some things like kneeling legs, scarab swarms and the good weapons like tau plasma... BWB or the sprue is usually the only option!)

I can understand why they did it (Win-win-win for GW...) but don't try to convince me that this approach is "value added" in any way!

Posted By mikhaila on 04/26/2007 6:24 AM
I assume you're referring to the LOTR plastics. These are a lot smaller than the models in WH, and generally one piece sculpts. Less pieces, smaller pieces, means a lot less cost to manufacture the molds for them. Nice models, and I have several hundred of them, but I'd never use a 1 dollar urakai for a 2 dollar black orc. Each is a good scale for it's respective games.

But by the same reasoning, Tamiya, Italeri, Academy and others offer kits that include anywhere from 4 to 12 infantry figures that are larger in scale, have as many or more pieces including all sorts of accessories and gubbins on better engineered sprues and yet are considerably cheaper than GW's offerings. And these are even more of a niche buy than wargaming figures as their use is usually limited to diorama display pieces, not fully fledged fieldable armies. Ditto with plastic vehicle kits, especially when you use comparably scaled kits.

The reality is GW charges as much as they do because they think they can get away with it. I say think as the last two year end financials show a drop in sales and an even more steep drop in units sold. To the point that they've had to borrow to pay dividends because profits were so short. And only a few months ago they had to put out an earnings alert after their 6 month interim report showed the situation only worsening. Something I'm sure a price hike will fix right up!

Mauleed said it best: The best thing to do to get GW to change is to play Warmachine (or any other non-GW game, like Flames of War, Infinity, or whatever else rings your bells).

Infinity looks cool. I don't have the terrain for that kind of table yet, but
I suppose GW and Pegasus could provide those things, yes?

So you are going to play a non-GW game, using GW terrain. Stick it to em!

Ozymandias, King of KIngs

On the chepskate thing:
What, an accidental mispelling can lose you an argument now?

Nope, since forever.

Yse

To Knight: Perhaps you should look more long term - as Yak says, GW is one of the largest, oldest, table top wargaming companies out there. They had to be doing something right to stay in business so long. Raising prices gives them more capital to open more shops, which they hope will ultimately become profitable in the long run. I doubt many GW stores turn a profit in their first or second year, but over time, as their foundation of customers grow, they just might make some money.

Now, if an older store starts losing money year after year, they should close it (and they do.)

Again, when I look at Privateer Press' prices vs GW prices, I understand that one company has much more infrastructure to support than the other, so I can see why some of GW's prices are higher. Doesn't mean I'm totally cool with it (who likes paying more,) but the GW hobby is well supported where I live, and to me the entertainment I get is worth the cost. Good gaming!

Zoned