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Post by: Toreador
Some consolidated rumours from Warseer.
Chaos Rumours
1) Thousand Sons have had an "extensive" overhaul
2) TS AP3 bolters were pretty much confirmed as appearing, general opinion was in line of special weapons we will get "bolter ammo" - it wasn't said if the AP3 were inferno bolts.
3) not confirmed but "highly likely": a return of the all is dust rule in some manner, a feel no pain style rule was suggested to me but that is not from the source of the AP3 rumour
4) chaos is appearing like eldar, i was not told the number of books but the book for each seems unlikely now
5) the codex is entering print, it was always referred in the singular to me
6) a redifining of the thousand sons was heavily suggested, we might be losing power fists on champions and the return of no assaulting in exchange for increase psyker power and shooting
7) deamons were implied to be having a rethink, no details
8) oblits will be heavy support
9) unconfirmed: force weapons
10) on the 2 wounds: GW think that 2 wounds is a classic sign of what thousand sons are, i heard little to suggest that we will be losing this ability
he Codex layout will be the same as for Codex: Eldar.
11)there will be three HQ choices (not including special characters): Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes and Chaos Lieutenants. Also, it will spell the end of the infiltrating speedy lieutenant.
12)Chaos Cultists will make an appearence (not sure about LaTD though)
13)There will be plastic daemons, Daemon Prince, Spawn, possessed.
14)There will be two books. One for Undivided one for Cults.
15) Chance of an all daemon army.
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Post by: Asmodai
How will 'bolter ammo' be dealt with in terms of WYSIWYG?
Oblits as HS makes a lot of sense.
I'll wait and see on the 1K Sons rumors. The devil is really in the implementation.
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Post by: cuda1179
A retooling of thousand sons sounds great, especially since they will be keeping two wounds. Throw in "All is Dust" and they will be VERY hard to kill. I really will hate it though if Aspiring champions can't have powerfists though, as I have mine all modeled that way, and is very effective.
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Post by: Lemartes
Like to see Raptors come way down in points. Oblits do make sense to go to a Heavy option.
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Post by: Toreador
The curious part is if it still is slated for the rumoured Sept. I keep hearing differing opinions on that. I guess we have to wait until June!
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
1) Thousand Sons have had an "extensive" overhaul
2) TS AP3 bolters were pretty much confirmed as appearing, general opinion was in line of special weapons we will get "bolter ammo" - it wasn't said if the AP3 were inferno bolts.
I hope that's not all they change. A 250+ pt squad with 8 bolters and a sh!tty psychic power (that can be negated by psychic hoods) is still complete crap, even if 2 of those bolters are AP3. Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
3) not confirmed but "highly likely": a return of the all is dust rule in some manner, a feel no pain style rule was suggested to me but that is not from the source of the AP3 rumour
Why? The LAST thing the Thousand Sons needed was more resilience to small arms fire. What about INSTANT DEATH? You know, the thing that renders the 2nd wound irrelevant? What about more resilience to things that really kill the hell out of them, like lascannons? I mean not everyone has as much trouble fielding lascannons as Dark Angels do. Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
6) a redifining of the thousand sons was heavily suggested, we might be losing power fists on champions and the return of no assaulting in exchange for increase psyker power and shooting
Well that just takes the cake. The hidden power fist was the ONLY advantage the Thousand Sons had. Are a couple AP3 bolters and All Is Dust supposed to make up for this? They'd better get a steep pts reduction and/or some ridiculously awesome non-psychic hood-able powers or they're gonna be in a world of hurt. I don't understand the point of all this fiddling. Didn't Jervis say something about needing to stop tinkering with things and get the points cost correct? Didn't they get the memo? I predict Thousand Sons will stick suck. And you'll have to take Ahriman to play them. And he still won't have a power weapon. But I guess it's not too bad. Afterall, what's the worst that could happen? They give them crap rules and no one plays them? Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
10) on the 2 wounds: GW think that 2 wounds is a classic sign of what thousand sons are, i heard little to suggest that we will be losing this ability
he Codex layout will be the same as for Codex: Eldar.
Well, that's reassuring. Ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has got plenty going for it.
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Post by: EvilBastard
Posted By cuda1179 on 04/18/2007 1:40 PM
... I really will hate it though if Aspiring champions can't have powerfists though, as I have mine all modeled that way, and is very effective.
I have a few done up like this as well. But I'd be willing to toss them all out if we get AP3 bolter fire and more/better psychic powers. As a long time 1KSons fan who was crushed by the last Chaos dex, I'm getting fairly excited.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
7) deamons were implied to be having a rethink, no details
Ooh, I hope they go back to the generic daemons from the first 3rd ed Chaos codex. That would be peachy. Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
8) oblits will be heavy support
Does that mean Dreads will be moving to Elites? If not, that's going to leave an abundance of Heavy Support and a shortage of Elites choices unless... plague marines, berserkers, noise marines, and Thousand Sons all become separate entries in the Elites section! FANTASTIC! Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
11)there will be three HQ choices (not including special characters): Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes and Chaos Lieutenants. Also, it will spell the end of the infiltrating speedy lieutenant.
It sounds like we're going back to the first 3rd ed Chaos codex. Hooray for Daemon Princes with no armor save. Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
14)There will be two books. One for Undivided one for Cults.
I really hope so, but I'm not optimistic. I predict they'll squish all the cult armies into the vanilla list, get rid of the Marks of Chaos system entirely, and reduce marked marines to 4 separate Elite choices (so no more marked bikers or havocs). If you want to play one of the 4 cult legions you take a special character that makes them Troops. Hooray.
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Post by: Asmodai
Re: Psychic Powers and Instant Death
Wouldn't the obvious thing be to copy the Tyranid rule and make 1K Sons immune to instant-death if within 12" of a Sorceror?
Call it a psychic power, but have it passively on in the background for all 1K Sons Sorcerors.
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Post by: chuckyhol
Abadabadoobaddon, why do you even want to post in these threads? All you do is sound pessimistic and childish. A lot of this sounds pretty good, and I think i'll be pinching my pennies to be able to buy into this.
Chuck
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By chuckyhol on 04/18/2007 3:23 PM
Abadabadoobaddon, why do you even want to post in these threads?
Because I like it. Posted By chuckyhol on 04/18/2007 3:23 PM
A lot of this sounds pretty good, and I think i'll be pinching my pennies to be able to buy into this.
Well good for you.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/18/2007 3:08 PM Does that mean Dreads will be moving to Elites? If not, that's going to leave an abundance of Heavy Support and a shortage of Elites choices unless... plague marines, berserkers, noise marines, and Thousand Sons all become separate entries in the Elites section! FANTASTIC! Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM 14)There will be two books. One for Undivided one for Cults.
I really hope so, but I'm not optimistic. I predict they'll squish all the cult armies into the vanilla list, get rid of the Marks of Chaos system entirely, and reduce marked marines to 4 separate Elite choices (so no more marked bikers or havocs). If you want to play one of the 4 cult legions you take a special character that makes them Troops. Hooray.
I suspect it will be along these lines - cult Marines are Elites, if your HQ has the matching mark, they become troops. Hard to say whether a special character will be required or not. GW has said that they want to very heavily emphasize them - so I suspect yes, but I could certainly be proven wrong about that.
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Post by: Janthkin
Hard to say whether a special character will be required or not. GW has said that they want to very heavily emphasize them - so I suspect yes, but I could certainly be proven wrong about that. Oooh, just what I always wanted. A reason to *have* to field Lucious the Eternally Inefficient.
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
If you've actually read the DA codex, you'll see how remarkably simple it is to not only create a character, but also to make an army. Chaos will be like this too. And Powerful. Really. You just pick your super awesome special character or one of the unnamed (but equally restricted) HQ choices and your fixed sized unit choices and violla! With no wargear, marks, gifts, mutations or other things to worry about it will be simpler to make a highly effective army.  40k has turned into an overpriced clicky game that you have to pay ridiculous amounts of money to purchase unassembled & unpainted figures to play.
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Post by: Slave
staple army types must be preserved man, seriously.
Lots of us have marked troops, with appropriate wargear types. Marked armies have been around since lost and the damned, and thats complete with sacred numbered squad choices.
Unlike Dark angels, there are way too many legions that have marked troops, so I doubt you will need lucius the eternal to field a noise marine army.
If they did this, it will go a long way to drive the final nail in the coffin for a lot of players.
The demon prince should still have the option of getting chaos armour, hop[efully they just reduce some of the more unused demon gifts like spawn and visage.
I was thinking they will make marked armies available by saying that if your commander has a mark, those models count as troops, but unlike the DA, you can make your own special character up, as they have sold entierly too many demon prince models, and they just made a terminator lord, and a new power armour lord.
I just think they will get rid of legeion specific vehicle upgrades, but as useless as the slaanesh ones where (wtf, trade down my heavy bolters for sonic blasters??) and make us use the same ones.
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Post by: skyth
Interesting fact that was mentioned on Warseer...Greater Daemons were not listed as an HQ choice...
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Post by: Therion-
This isn't rumours, this is 'collected speculations based on nothing but hopes and dreams'.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Slave on 04/18/2007 5:25 PM
Unlike Dark angels, there are way too many legions that have marked troops, so I doubt you will need lucius the eternal to field a noise marine army.
That's ok - you can just use the Lucius' rules and "counts as". This is fluffy and balanced and fun! And who cares if an Emperor's Childrens army is as (in)effective as a pure Deathwing army? Posted By Slave on 04/18/2007 5:25 PM
I was thinking they will make marked armies available by saying that if your commander has a mark, those models count as troops, but unlike the DA, you can make your own special character up, as they have sold entierly too many demon prince models, and they just made a terminator lord, and a new power armour lord.
You're right. GW would never make any changes that would render people's models useless - that would just make their customers angry! Posted By Therion- on 04/18/2007 8:08 PM
This isn't rumours, this is 'collected speculations based on nothing but hopes and dreams'.
Well it's from Warseer so... yeah. Even so, I don't think these speculations are based on hopes and dreams. Unless they're slow dreams. But everybody knows retards don't dream.
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Post by: Dice Monkey
Posted By Janthkin on 04/18/2007 4:21 PM Hard to say whether a special character will be required or not. GW has said that they want to very heavily emphasize them - so I suspect yes, but I could certainly be proven wrong about that. Oooh, just what I always wanted. A reason to *have* to field Lucious the Eternally Inefficient.
Look at the bright side they may get rid of him and bring Doomrider back.
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Post by: George Spiggott
Thousand Sons have always sucked. In second ed. they had a nasty habit of disappearing if the wrong psychic card got played. I Played a Khorne/Tzeentch army in second ed  . I'll reserve my judgement for the codex until I see the finished product.
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Post by: pinhead
Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
Some consolidated rumours from Warseer.
8) oblits will be heavy support
That item, in my opinion, will help fix the Iron Warriors abuse armies. They can either have tons of Oblits or the Heavies (Basilisk, etc...) - but not both. It also means IW players can still keep their models. Not a bad compromise.
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Post by: beefHeart
Posted By pinhead on 04/19/2007 3:59 AM Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
Some consolidated rumours from Warseer.
8) oblits will be heavy support
That item, in my opinion, will help fix the Iron Warriors abuse armies. They can either have tons of Oblits or the Heavies (Basilisk, etc...) - but not both. It also means IW players can still keep their models. Not a bad compromise.
I have no problem with this as long as dreads move to elite. Or better yet why not make defilers a 0-1 choice or just reduce the squad size to 1-2 for oblits. I sincerely hope GW tries out some options that will not kill the flavor of IW.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Posted By Therion- on 04/18/2007 8:08 PM
This isn't rumours, this is 'collected speculations based on nothing but hopes and dreams'.
Which is why I'm keeping my CrapCannon safely stowed away in the closet until we see something more solid then these rumblings. Most of what was posted makes me sad / whiney, though at least I guessed that my speed lord was late for this world. If they make 1k Sons the next 'must have cheese unit' in 40k I'm going to chuckle nice and hard and finally paint the squad I've got sitting around  - Boss Salvage
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Post by: LtCraggs
Dice Monkey:
Don't you mean "Ghost Rider"?
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Post by: fleshcross
Posted By beefHeart on 04/19/2007 5:28 AM Posted By pinhead on 04/19/2007 3:59 AM Posted By Toreador on 04/18/2007 1:29 PM
Some consolidated rumours from Warseer.
8) oblits will be heavy support
That item, in my opinion, will help fix the Iron Warriors abuse armies. They can either have tons of Oblits or the Heavies (Basilisk, etc...) - but not both. It also means IW players can still keep their models. Not a bad compromise.
I have no problem with this as long as dreads move to elite. Or better yet why not make defilers a 0-1 choice or just reduce the squad size to 1-2 for oblits. I sincerely hope GW tries out some options that will not kill the flavor of IW.
Yea, the problem with Oblits as heavy is that it leaves the HS section WAY too saturated. Havocs, Preds, Dreads, Defilers, LR, and Oblits (am I missing anything?). But then again, the Eldar codex has that many choices so... It just seems that having so many choices in HS vs Elites (Chosen, Possessed, Marked Troops, anything else?) seems odd, at least without seeing what further restructuring they have in mind. Then again, maybe Chaos will be able to field more terminators, the way the chosen are currently arranged sucks.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Doomrider is totally sweet. He rocks out ALL the time.
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Post by: The Crawling Chaos
He'd totally flip out and chop off your head for no reason. One time he chopped off a guy's head for opening a window.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By LtCraggs on 04/19/2007 8:05 AM
Dice Monkey:
Don't you mean "Ghost Rider"?
No. He meant Doomrider. One time, Doomrider killed Chuck Norris, just to watch him die.
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Post by: IntoTheRain
Just for fun, how much do you want to bet that Thousand Suns become chaos new power build. Why? Because no one owns any right now!
However, to balance out Thousand Suns power, Iron Warriors will now suck the likes of which even orks have never seen! Why? Because everyone already owns a bunch of IW models! and THAT ladies and gentleman is how you balance a game.
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
When Doomrider isn't flying around totally flipping out and stabbing people, he's wailing hard on his guitar. That's how totally awesome he is.
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Post by: winterman
New rumors from warseer. First off, Storch posted several rumors:
Ok, I got to take a look at the codex today. (I will not bother telling you how since unless I posted a picture of it, you wouldn't believe anyway and maybe not even then). You can believe or not, it's no skin off my teeth one way or another.
Here are a few highlights:
-Marks are simpler, ie Khorne gives +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 Initiative, Nugle +1 Toughness, and Tzeentch +1 armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save.
-Troops - there are normal marines as troops as well as legion specific ones. Only the legion specific marines get access to legion specific weapons.
- Havocs can take marks but only get normal weapons (i.e. no blastmaster havoc squads for EC anymore).
- There are no mark restrictions on taking units. This means you could have a Khorne lord, a squad of noise marines, Nurgle Havocs , a squad of Obliterators (which are now Heavy Support) and a Vindicator.
- Yup, the Vindicator has been added as an option for everyone and the Basilisk for Iron Warriors is removed entirely.
-To make up for this, Dreads move to Elites so if you IW players want to pack in the heavy weapons you still can.
New models:
-I got to see one of the new plastic terminators in the flesh and it looks pretty cool. Though the trophy spikes on the shoulders were a bit long for my tastes, the rest of the model was very well done. About the same size as the new plastic Marine terminators, this will make a lot of people very happy.
From the pictures in the book:
- The new plastic Posessed look much cooler than the current ones (not that that is much of a feat).
- The new Raptor lord is a lot more dynamic and, though I only saw the picture for a bit, seems a bit more in proportion and not as cartoony.
-The new plastic Chaos Lord is absolutely amazing. It has a ton of cool bits and can be made to look like any one of the chaos powers and they all looked good. All the options here will keep the converters buy for a long time to come.
-The plastic Vindicator is almost exactly like the Forgeworld one with maybe a few minor changes. I'm not totally familiar with the FW model, so suffice it to say they look basically the same to me.
-Finally, there is a new plastic spawn kit that comes with enough bits to make two full spawn. One of them looks really cool with no head and a big eye in its chest. The other I didn't look at as much because the first one was so pretty, but it was much closer to the "lots of random appendages" we are used to.
Sorry for not getting more but that's all I can remember right now. I probably won't get to look at it again, but if anything comes back to me, I'll definitely post it here. Oh, one more, since I am putting together Emporer's Children, I made it a point to look up their stuff.
One really good thing is that that fixed the Doom Siren to just be a flamer with no hand requirement. No more Doomfists, thank god.
Also the Slaanesh psychic power is just sick. If you past a psychic test, you can pick a unit (I think within 24", might be less, I don't remember for sure) and you can move it 2d6" in any direction.
Enjoy. There aren't 'Legions' per se anymore. You can simply add a noise marine squad or a plague marine squad to any army. Night Lords would just be Marines with skills. An Iron Warriors army would simply be one that focuses on heavy weapons.
The only thing I saw that would indicate future supplemental releases was a marked decrease in the wargear options. Now, this may simply be a case of paring down the stuff that was overpowered, not usable, etc. but this is also in line with GW's new "make your specific army from a single more generic list" idea like what we have saw with the Eldar.
My opinion here, the only way that I see specific codex lists like you mentioned is if the Blood Angels thing is a real hit and GW decides to bolster White Dwarf sales by making it the preferred vehicle for releasing short lists like that. Otherwise I think it's up to the individual player to make the army fit the Fluff rather than have it dictated by the codex. Another guy, reds8n added: hmmm : here's what I've been told.
marks for normal troops are : K+1A. S+1I,N+1T,T=5+invuln save.
The Full cult troops ( world eaters, 1000 sons etc ) : WE= furious charge, 1oos sons= 4+ invulnerable save, option of ap3 inferno bolts, and are led by a sorceror who ( just the sorcerpr HQ choice ) comes with a force weapon. Oh, if he dies then their slow & purp. roll drops to 1d6. Deathguard=feel no pain....and Emps. children.....sorry, minds gone blank.
Oblits are heavy: supposedly they might be due to the techno organic virus OR they might be fallen/corrupted techmarines/adepts, who tap into the warp in some way. Down to S & T 4, and lose projectile type weapons ( heavy bolter etc) but can shoot pretty much any energy weapon --plasma-both,multi-both, flamer etc etc.
Ahriman has all the powers and a force weapon. think Abaddon can take all his attaks with his bif *&^% off sword however think it "only" wounds with no save now !
Chosen as elites are a separate slot from termies, think chosen get infiltrate-might get other options, they're similar to vets. from the DA.
Think daemonic possession was the same but dropped BS down to 3.
EDIT : oh yes, think ALL marines come with bolt gun, pistol and CC weapon as standard as well. As far as I've heard there is no lost & upset in the book at all in any way shape or form.
However if the daemons are removed--from what I hear they keep hpkey-kokeying around with them--then ( seeing as there are plastic daemons on the way and it wouldn't be too hard too put round and square bases in the boxes would it ) I'd expect a codex : cultist or codex : daemonic legion at some point in the not too distant future. Hell, look at the Blood Angels ! We might even see a list in White Dwarf or something !
Other points ;
yup, armoury as such has gone--upgrades are listed for each entry. welcome to the future. From what I have heard Hq options are : lord, prince or sorceror. All with their own options and variants--wings are an option for prince for example. Bizarrely this does seem to leave it so that ( special characters aside) you can't have a bezerker or a plague marine leading a World eater/death guard force, merely a lord with the mark of Khorne/nurgle .
No basilisk, but vindicator is their though .
Yes, does seem to say you could shoot and then have 2 weapons in assault--removes need for Death Guard getting true grit I suppose.
No idea with regards to powers, rot etc etc. Sorry Storch followed up: Originally Posted by Promethius Just a quick question Storch: did you notice cultists in the army list, or are they not making an appearance?
Don't remember seeing cultists.
Originally Posted by reds8n
hmmm : here's what I've been told.
marks for normal troops are : K+1A. S+1I,N+1T,T=5+invuln save.
I distinctly remember the +1 to armor save for Tzeench because it had a line about "to a minimum of 2+".
Originally Posted by reds8n
The Full cult troops ( world eaters, 1000 sons etc ) : WE= furious charge, 1oos sons= 4+ invulnerable save, option of ap3 inferno bolts, and are led by a sorceror who ( just the sorcerpr HQ choice ) comes with a force weapon. Oh, if he dies then their slow & purp. roll drops to 1d6. Deathguard=feel no pain....and Emps. children.....sorry, minds gone blank.
For the Thousand Sons, the squad leader is automatically a Sorcerer and the Inferno bolts are an upgrade. Didn't really read the HQ choices, so no idea on the force weapon.
Originally Posted by reds8n
However if the daemons are removed--from what I hear they keep hpkey-kokeying around with them--then ( seeing as there are plastic daemons on the way and it wouldn't be too hard too put round and square bases in the boxes would it ) I'd expect a codex : cultist or codex : daemonic legion at some point in the not too distant future. Hell, look at the Blood Angels ! We might even see a list in White Dwarf or something !
It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more.
Originally Posted by reds8n
yup, armoury as such has gone--upgrades are listed for each entry. welcome to the future. From what I have heard Hq options are : lord, prince or sorceror. All with their own options and variants--wings are an option for prince for example. Bizarrely this does seem to leave it so that ( special characters aside) you can't have a bezerker or a plague marine leading a World eater/death guard force, merely a lord with the mark of Khorne/nurgle .
Two things here, those look right for the HQ choices and there is more to it when discussing the armory. I don't want to give the impression that there are no choices. Far from it. It's just that a lot of the armory entries got rolled into the individual entries. For example, I remember Noise Marines come with krak and frag standard. I know it's a small example, but a lot of the more basic armory entries seem to just be included so it appears, at first glance, like there are less options when, in fact, you are just getting more without having to explicitly choose every little thing.
If the rumors are true it looks like GW are taking a step backward and re-releasing the much lamented first version of the 3ed chaos dex. Not a good idea at all...
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Post by: Gabe
Hasn't GW said they want to keep Thousand Sons with 2 wounds? Does that mean we'll see 2 wound, 2+ save, 5+/4+ invulnerable thousand sons? good lord, that would be nice...
are inferno bolts an upgrade option for the entire squad, or just the unit leader/HQ? any info on what the inferno bolt is? still just a normal bolt round with a template, or is it the rumored AP3 round?
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Post by: blood angel
DG with feel no pain will be nice.  I was sure that we'd see some empowerment of TZ and Nurgle and it looks like that's the case. I would really hate for there not to be some beneficial option to play with a full cult army. The above rumors about the cult armies seems to contradict each other a little.
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Post by: winterman
Yeah it kinda reminds me of the eldar rumors of last year, lots of conflicting stuff that will hopefully become more clear once the tried and true rumors mongers chime in.
As far as the rumors, I'm guessing some of it might be a bity off. The tzeentch thing, for example, maybe an additional upgrade for the squad similar to what they have now (ie start with two wounds with option for terminator armor stats). SAme could be said for FNP death guard (start with T4/5, can choose to add FNP for x points). That is just plain conjecture on my part but is how I'm thinking it will work.
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Post by: Nuwisha
Wow this just seems so amazingly predictable..
Its like breaking a vase because you think it looks funny, then reglueing it with elmer's glue and trying to pass it off as better.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
"It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more."
Umm... what???
No, really - WHAT???
One statline for all Daemons, and one for GD's? There's simplification, there's dumbing down, and then there's down right f**king insane.
Allow me to be the first to jerk my knee and say that this decision, if true, is possibly one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas.
BYE
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Post by: Asmodai
Clearly Ultramarines Tactical Marines and Dark Angels Tactical Marines are different enough to base entire Codexes around the distinction. The Keeper of Secrets and Great Unclean One? Obviously just a cosmetic difference. 
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Post by: Balfazar
Well, that all sounds like garbage. My fears have come true... removal of Legions, crippling of the myriad of armoury/troop options I loved and generic daemons as a final slap in the face. I guess I'll get my Chaos on eBay while people are excited about the impending new rules. I'm happy for TS players though, karma dictates some time on top after a long period of misery. Maybe they'll end up like Assault Cannons; a testament to GWs inept 'balancing'.
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Post by: ph34r
April fool's day was weeks ago, GW. Now show us the real codex.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Hold on now, take a step back before going mental. Looking at the first rumor posted: -Marks are simpler, ie Khorne gives +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 Initiative, Nugle +1 Toughness, and Tzeentch +1 armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save.
-Troops - there are normal marines as troops as well as legion specific ones. Only the legion specific marines get access to legion specific weapons.
See that last bit? There will be something to differentiate the Legions from the regular Chaos Marines with a Mark. Maybe this will actually make the legions more distinctive - no longer can a squad with the Mark of Khorne in a Black Legion army take Chain Axes, and only World Eaters can. One would assume this means that the World Eaters would have extra restrictions for their army/etc than say a Chaos army with a Troop Marine squad with the Mark of Khorne would give you. As to demons? One statline is dumb, yes. However I think this is their solution to the current problem that exists with Demons now anyway: Only Bloodletters & Demonettes are taken, and Horrors/Flamers & Plague Bearers are never taken. And when Bloodletters & Demonettes are taken enmasse, they make for pretty abusive Demon Bomb armies. Do I think that one statline is the best answer? Probably not. But it is one way to make the Demons equal so that armies based on any mark will use them (assuming they can still summon and move+assault and have some way to ignore armor saves). As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.
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Post by: the_trooper
But I just got Anngrath for my birthday!
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Post by: Mannahnin
Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 1:35 AM
Hold on now, take a step back before going mental.
As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.
I love me some Furies. S5, T4, I5, and 12” move to make the summoning scatter rarely an issue = easily as good as Daemonettes for the same price. Rending is not the be-all, end-all. Otherwise I largely agree. It’s a bit early to be flipping out, and it does seem that they’re preserving the Cult armies. It is a bit of a bummer for the fans of the various undivided legions (especially all you IW player with Basilisks), but I’m not prepared to sell my CSM army just yet. I don’t like the sounds of generic daemons (much less generic Greaters); they were useable in the first 3rd ed codex, but hardly popular. I do agree that it may be the way to get Horrors (and even Plaguebearers) some more love.
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Post by: grimshawl
Hopefully most of these rumours will turn out to be false, otherwise Chaos looks to be turning into poo.
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Post by: Alpharius
Posted By grimshawl on 04/23/2007 7:11 AM
Hopefully most of these rumours will turn out to be false, otherwise Chaos looks to be turning into poo.
Ha! No kidding!
And, no more Blastmaster Havocs for Emperor's Children? Why? (And yes, I am upset over the amount of time and money it took to build said squad!)
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Posted By Mannahnin on 04/23/2007 6:30 AM Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 1:35 AM
Hold on now, take a step back before going mental.
As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.
I love me some Furies. S5, T4, I5, and 12” move to make the summoning scatter rarely an issue = easily as good as Daemonettes for the same price. Rending is not the be-all, end-all. Otherwise I largely agree. It’s a bit early to be flipping out, and it does seem that they’re preserving the Cult armies. It is a bit of a bummer for the fans of the various undivided legions (especially all you IW player with Basilisks), but I’m not prepared to sell my CSM army just yet. I don’t like the sounds of generic daemons (much less generic Greaters); they were useable in the first 3rd ed codex, but hardly popular. I do agree that it may be the way to get Horrors (and even Plaguebearers) some more love.
Dude, you may like Furies, but you have this uncanny ability to take some underpar units. I've never seen them used in 40k. I had no idea what the models looked like till I saw them used in Fantasy. Rending really is the be-all end-all. Demonettes kill more MEQ's than the Furies do. Demonettes can be thrown against Terminators and win, or at least do better than the Furies will, by far. They can kill Monsterous Creatures, they can kill tanks. They also have a better leadership. Fact is Rending is that good and they're an effective I5 and with the right summoning delivery method (which everyone also takes) scattering isn't an issue. I mean seriously, if something can't ignore armor saves in some way (with good Strength or huge numbers of attacks to back it up) then they're going to get completely ignored as a CC unit, period. No one takes Flayed Ones or Wraiths as CC units, they don't ignore armor. No one takes anything but Demonettes or Bloodletters, because they're the only ones that ignore armor saves. People don't take gaunts to kill things, they take them to tie things up till other things (namely things that can ignore armor saves) can get there safely and kill their target. I'm going to guess that GW has been quite Rending happy lately. Putting it on Harlies, Death Company, etc. That the demons will have a common statline, with probably 2 base attacks and Rending, in order to make them worth taking, other wise they're going to totally suck and will be ignored, like every other CC unit that can't ignore armor saves with at least a champion.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/23/2007 12:31 AM
"It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more."
Umm... what???
No, really - WHAT???
One statline for all Daemons, and one for GD's? There's simplification, there's dumbing down, and then there's down right f**king insane.
Allow me to be the first to jerk my knee and say that this decision, if true, is possibly one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas.
BYE
I defecate in rage upon hearing these Chaos rumors. The book comes out in, what, September? So I've got about 4 months to play the living hell out of the only army I've ever completely painted, fluffed and enjoyed playing. So be it.
... though I do like vindicators ... o_O - Boss Salvage
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Post by: Hellfury
Ahhh the days of 3rd edition demons and greater demons has reared its ugly face again.
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Post by: keichi246
Hmmm...
I guess I'm one of the few people who overall likes these rumors.
I can see good, valid reasons for every single change mentioned.
(and before anyone asks - I have a non maxed out Iron Warriors army.)
Yes - while some of the changes are less palatable; they are kind of necessary. Like demons - As has been pointed out - the lesser demons defintely had very huge differences between them power wise. Now they won't. I do wish they had kept the greater demons distinct - but even then I can see why they did waht they did.
Come on. How many of you DIDN'T see the "we're gonna nerf the heck out Chaos" light flashing for a while now? Really. Demonbomb and Iron Warrior HS of death were just too easy to do.
No -before I start wailing and gnashing my teeth - I'm going to wait and see what happens with the codex myself. If they went down a little in power - fine. Maybe I'll stop hearing groans the moment I say "I'm playing Iron Warriors".
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Post by: Da Boss
Hmmm.
I'm gonna wait until the codex comes out before passing judgement.
I dislike the "no armoury" attitude these days though. it works in fantasy because you have magic items, but 40K doesn't really have wacky "wargear" anymore.
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Post by: Alpharius
Brimstone over on Warseer:
Undivided Legions I'm not 100% sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.
The entire codex is undivided there are no Chaos power specific army lists in it (That's not to say you cannot create a Nurgle themed army for example you can and with far more flexiblity than before).
As to undivided lists things like the IW extra heavy support choice, Alpha legion funky cultists etc. are dead and gone.
 I suspect that we're in for the Great Whitewashing come September(-ish)...
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Post by: Therion-
Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.
By the way Voodoo I'm not sure if you've played daemonbombs but I've taken one to more than ten tournaments and I've delivered with infiltrators, turbo boosting bikers and Siren characters and my experience is that scattering is always an issue. Mounted Daemonettes are twice as good as Daemonettes and I like Furies a lot too. The only foot daemon I've liked is the Bloodletter because it's so outrageously underpriced (LD10, 3+ AS, T4 etc).
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Post by: Toreador
Here is the latest rumour roundup posted by Brim on Warseer. Looks like generic daemon profiles until the second Chaos Codex comes out. This is a collection of Chaos Marine rumours, these are rumours NOT facts, if you want facts wait for the codex.
I?ll be adding to it as more information becomes available and is not a complete list of codex contents.
HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard).
N.B. No restricted units i.e. the Ancient enemies rule is gone.
These are all individual entries.
Elites
Possessed Chaos Space Marines (New models on the way which are a vast improvement on the more recent ones)
Dreadnoughts (still frenzy)
Veterans (only unit that can infiltrate)
Terminators ? Can be marked (new plastic kit, reasonably impressive but not that different from Imperial versions), points brought into line with Imperial Terminators.
Troops ? All troops come with bolter, bolt pistol CC weapon and grenades as standard.
Chaos Marines ? Can be marked
Cult Marines
Khorne Bezerkers (lose their Khornate Chain axes).
Plague Marines (lose their plague weapons but keep blight grenades)
Noise Marines (retain their options for sonic weaponary but may be more restricted, Doom caster is AP3).
Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3)
Fast Attack
Raptors ? Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction.
Bikes ? Can be marked
Heavy Support
Obliterators ? Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction.
Defiler ? Loses indirect fire option but can be given a CC upgrade.
Vindicator (New plastic model for release).
Havocs
Predators
Misc Rumours
Codex follows the DA/Eldar format.
No books of Chaos in the codex.
Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex).
New unit ? Chaos Spawn (1-3 cannot be split)
No basilisk option in the codex.
Wargear highly restricted ? Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries.
Daemon weapons standardised ? power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks.
Any unit can be marked to the Chaos gods in the form of a Icon, marks are as follows ? Khorne (+1A), Nurgle (+1T), Slaanesh (+1I), Tzeentch (+1 to invul save (max 2+) if already present or gives a basic 5+ invul save).
Recut CSM sprue.
Special characters ? All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard.
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Post by: Frazzled
The rumors make the codex look less like Chaos marines and more like Codex Ultramarines with more skulls but no Assault Cannons HURR!
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Post by: Toreador
Yes because daemons, cult troops, defilers, obliterators, daemon weapons, chaos sorcerers and possessed are so very Ultramarine.
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Post by: skyth
Alpha Legion just got sent to the crapper. Only Vets can infiltrate? Bah.
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Post by: Hellfury
I dont like the looks of some of the rumours, but I am giving "The Jervis Plan" the benefit of the doubt.
I know chaos needs a nerf in some aspects (well admittedly in many aspects) but he better do this right. Simplified rules and organization only goes so far, especially with chaos.
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Post by: Toreador
And I am going to wait to make final judgement after the second dex comes out. Official LoTD rules just make me giddy if it is true.
Looks like a lot of releases this year.
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Post by: Frazzled
Yes but the second codex may not come out for...well years.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 04/23/2007 1:51 PM
My (Asmo's) Comments in Bold
HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard).
This sounds reasonable.
Elites
Dreadnoughts (still frenzy)
I like this change. It answers the complaints about Heavy Support being saturated too.
Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3)
4+ invulnerable? They could be very viable - depending on what their points end up being.
Fast Attack
Raptors – Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction.
Nice to see the restriction gone.
Heavy Support
Obliterators – Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction.
Happy dance. This fixes one of the biggest problems in the 3rd revised Dex.
Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex).
Boo. It depends on how long until the release the next one. If it's 8 years/never (ala Ordo Xenos), this could get really old.
No basilisk option in the codex.
Fair. With the removal of indirect fire from the Defiler, IW can no longer out-IG the IG.
Wargear highly restricted – Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries.
Daemon weapons standardised – power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks.
Yawn. Chaos HQs will all be about the same. Snoooze.
Special characters – All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard.
How much do you want to bet that the new special character will be $40 and semi-mandatory (ala Eldrad)?
Overall, some good, some bad. Wait and see on the implementation.
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Post by: skwpp
Posted By chuckyhol on 04/18/2007 3:23 PM
and I think i'll be pinching my pennies.
Hehe, guess what i read at first here? Anyways, even if daemons have similar statlines, does that really have to mean that they have similar abilites? Otherwise it just sucks... and i was painting up an emperors children army and all...
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Post by: Lemartes
I think this is a step in the right direction with both marine and chaos marines getting "balanced". The only draw back is suffering beat downs by Tyranid MC lists and 3 Falcon lists that are the real overpowered lists IMO. GW giveth and taketh away.
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Post by: Brother Bartius
If you go by all the rumours that are in this thread then TS are going to be an army of doum.
Cheers
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 1:10 PM
Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.
By the way Voodoo I'm not sure if you've played daemonbombs but I've taken one to more than ten tournaments and I've delivered with infiltrators, turbo boosting bikers and Siren characters and my experience is that scattering is always an issue. Mounted Daemonettes are twice as good as Daemonettes and I like Furies a lot too. The only foot daemon I've liked is the Bloodletter because it's so outrageously underpriced (LD10, 3+ AS, T4 etc).
Played them? No. Played against them? Numerous times. If scattering was that huge of issue then I'm sure demon bomb armies wouldn't be as prevalent as they are. I mean how many tournament lists did you take that had Furies? Or were they Demonettes/Mounted Demonettes or Bloodletters - ie the ones that can ignore armor saves in CC. I'm sure there are times when you get a bad scatter on one set of demons and they get hosed, sure. But they're cheap enough where you can bulk out on small units of them and get enough delivered nice and safe. RE: The latest changes Brimstone posted on Warseer. Khorne lost the chain axes? That's a surprize to be honest. Guess they'll be back to being a Champion delivery system again. 1k Sons got a lot more durable than they were with that upgrade, by far. Wonder if they're still going to have Slow & Purposeful? If the greater demons have the same abilities, I wonder if they're all going to be able to fly or have speed or something. At least the Bloodthirster won't be the default Greater Demon, much like the situation with the regular demons who are either going to get Rending/Power Weapons or will sink into the land of "not used". The Defiler is interesting without Indirect Fire. I suspect a whole lot of them are going to get shelved now, unless you can upgrade it to AV13 or something. I'm also guessing the Land Raider was just omitted as a typo. I'm also wondering if Havok's are going to get vet skills or just the ability to purchase Tank Hunters, if not I'm sure there are a whole bunch of Autocannon Havok squads that are going to get taken apart/shelved/etc.
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Post by: Alpharius
Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 4:19 PM
The Defiler is interesting without Indirect Fire. I suspect a whole lot of them are going to get shelved now, unless you can upgrade it to AV13 or something. I'm also guessing the Land Raider was just omitted as a typo. I'm also wondering if Havok's are going to get vet skills or just the ability to purchase Tank Hunters, if not I'm sure there are a whole bunch of Autocannon Havok squads that are going to get taken apart/shelved/etc.
I suspect that a lot of units are going to get shelved. Apparently, my whole army, actually. Ugh.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 1:10 PM
Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.
Ah yes Therion, because there's been so much other information that runs contrary to the talk of single-statline Daemons, we just all forgot to read it.
Oh wait... there wasn't anything else in the thread talking about Daemons having differing statlines. Or maybe there was, but it's an invisible post, a post that only you can read, and a post that allows you to insult all of us collectivley for having 'more info' than we do.
BYE
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Chances are the Daemons will look like this:
WS4 (or 5) BS3 S4 T3 W1 A2 I4 Ld9 Sv-/5+(I)
They'll have Power or Rending Weapons, and have the following differences:
Plagebearers - +1T
Daemonettes - +1I
Bloodletters - +1A
Horrors/Flamers - +1Inv Save
Furies - Jump Packs|
Screamers - Furious Charge
Daemonette Cav - Cavalry
Flesh Hounds - No Idea.
BYE
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Post by: Therion-
I already dropped a hint at you suggesting that these rumours are mostly imagination but you chose to ignore it. Then I just had to laugh at your naivety. What were your rumours based on again? Humour me.
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Post by: Nuwisha
Oooh, a Hurion Blackheart model? Now that sounds awesome, been wanting one of thoes for years now.
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 7:29 PM I already dropped a hint at you suggesting that these rumours are mostly imagination but you chose to ignore it. Then I just had to laugh at your naivety. What were your rumours based on again? Humour me.
Brimstone on Warseer's rumours have been mostly accurate on the last 5 or 6 Codexes. What makes them unreliable now?
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Post by: Frazzled
Brimstone has been painfully accurate in his rumors on the DA and Eldar codexes. I see nothing that contradicts that for the Chaos codex.
From these rumors V4 codex =s first V3 codex. A great yawning Meh from me.
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Post by: gorgon
Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 4:19 PM
Played them? No. Played against them? Numerous times.
If scattering was that huge of issue then I'm sure demon bomb armies wouldn't be as prevalent as they are. I mean how many tournament lists did you take that had Furies? Or were they Demonettes/Mounted Demonettes or Bloodletters - ie the ones that can ignore armor saves in CC.
Furies are a good unit, and yes, I've seen them used. Not sure why you think they aren't. Re: Daemons, Brimstone's usually pretty good with his rumors, although he did admit he had it wrong with respect to cult units being in this codex. So I don't think it's impossible that he's wrong on this one item. Another Warseer poster who usually has good information said in the same thread that the studio's been playing with the daemons a lot. Things could be the same or different in the final version. I'm unhappy that they didn't include LatD in this codex, but I'm happy that a codex is a possibility. At least there's some hope. If the LatD/Daemon codex happens, we can be assured of actual GW support for a long time, which is great. Trouble is, I dunno when it's going to happen, with Orks, DE, SMs, etc. all seeming more imminent. The one thing in its favor is that it'd be a good marketing tool to sell a lot of those new plastic daemon kits, plastic spawn kits, and existing IG kits. So they might surprise us, although I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And what proof beyond 'hints' do you have that these tidbits of info are not rock-solid gospel truth. They could just as well be fantasy, but how do you know that?
BYE
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Post by: Boss Salvage
A few thoughts from me, with the whine knob turned down a bit ") HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard). Good to see DP is a seperate option (and not instakillable), though wonder what 'standard kit' will be on the big guy - and how many points he comes out to. And if I can take 2
N.B. No restricted units i.e. the Ancient enemies rule is gone. With all of the codex changes that have been claimed to 'bring the army inline with the fluff,' this seems especially lame, but will indeed allow all of those Tzeentch units to be fielded in every army.
These are all individual entries.
Elites
Possessed Chaos Space Marines (New models on the way which are a vast improvement on the more recent ones) - Interested to know how beefed up these guys got, ala Harlies
Dreadnoughts (still frenzy) - Glad the frenzy is still around, and Elites does work a bit better
Veterans (only unit that can infiltrate)
Terminators – Can be marked (new plastic kit, reasonably impressive but not that different from Imperial versions), points brought into line with Imperial Terminators.
Troops – All troops come with bolter, bolt pistol CC weapon and grenades as standard.
Chaos Marines – Can be marked
Cult Marines
Khorne Bezerkers (lose their Khornate Chain axes) - Sad to see the chainaxes go, I guess WE get them back though?
Plague Marines (lose their plague weapons but keep blight grenades)
Noise Marines (retain their options for sonic weaponary but may be more restricted, Doom caster is AP3) - Yes! I couldn't understand why they'd lose the sonics, as these are noise marines still, I'd hope. And AP3 doom siren?!
Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3) - Yep
Fast Attack
Raptors – Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction. - Including MoN & MoT?
Bikes – Can be marked - Including MoN & MoT?
Heavy Support
Obliterators – Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction. - At first I was all, marked oblits awesome!! But what do the marks do for them? MoK brings their strength back to 5, MoN brings their toughness back to 5, MoS does little as they have chainfists (I hope), but MoT does make them have a 4+ inv. Tzeentch Oblits FTW!
Defiler – Loses indirect fire option but can be given a CC upgrade. - As much as I disliked seeing every defiler lurk and shoot indirect, it's a shame to see the option for Chaos artillery go. I wonder how the defiler's points are going to change too ...
Vindicator (New plastic model for release). - I do like vindies.
Havocs
Predators
Misc Rumours
Codex follows the DA/Eldar format.
No books of Chaos in the codex.
Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex). - Vomit, etc.
New unit – Chaos Spawn (1-3 cannot be split)
No basilisk option in the codex. - Good!
Wargear highly restricted – Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries. - A crying shame, and I remember being blown away by the Chaos wargear section when I saw it years ago. So many options! So many possibilites! All gone!
Daemon weapons standardised – power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks. - So ... no kai gun? Or did that get assigned to one of the gods?
Any unit can be marked to the Chaos gods in the form of a Icon, marks are as follows – Khorne (+1A), Nurgle (+1T), Slaanesh (+1I), Tzeentch (+1 to invul save (max 2+) if already present or gives a basic 5+ invul save). - I like the way MoT works, but I will sorely miss warp scream. What a unique ability, great for the combi-charge.
Recut CSM sprue.
Special characters – All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard. - Huron, now that's cool. Ahriman as the new Eldrad though? Perhaps ... now let's see what Kharne is up to!! - Boss Salvage
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I think having a model for Huron will be nice. I wonder how his army would work? The Red Corsairs are far more... Marine-y than other Chaos Legions. They have all of the new stuff, like Land Speeders and stuff without tentacles. They're Space Marines Gone Bad as opposed to Evil Space Marines.
I think that this is probably the only interesting thing to come of these rumours, as the Red Corsairs remain an extremely unrevealed part of 40K fluff. The rest of it's just idiotic dumbing down and simplification - I can't wait to Daemonbomb the enemy with my Bloodletting Plague Daemonettes of Tzeentch! W00t!
BYE
1249
Post by: Therion-
Not saying its gonna happen, but until we see it or definate info comes out it is a possibility however small. That's the thing isn't it. People on Warseer like to make up some rules, call them rumours and then start debating whether they are good or bad ones. The fact you consider them gospel is just funny. They have to be accurate rules because so many people are talking about them, right? Wrong. I don't give respect to anyone who is intentionally trying to deceive hundreds if not thousands of people on the internet, and even less to the guys who happen to buy that crap and start spreading the lies. The meaning of the word rumour of course implies that the knowledge is hearsay and possibly untrue. It takes a madman to always believe every rumour and even go so far as to furiously debate the possible futures they might lead to. Should we start a new Chaos Codex tactics thread too? I find it hard to believe any of you still don't know how the GW internet community works. First a guy who has a loyal fanbase makes up a rumour. All the blind sycophants in his community believe it and start debating the content of the rumour already accepted as fact. People even go as far as start insulting or praising the GW games designers. Then the rumour starts spreading out to other communities and soon there's a hundred little preachers on every forum citing the contents of the new codex. If someone even dares to laugh at the preachers or even worse at the face of the source he is labeled an idiot and a blasphemer. "The authoritative guy on god knows whatever planet has only been wrong a hundred and fifty times before with his wild guesses, what makes you more authoritative?" EDIT: HBMC: When I post information about a new codex I'll do it when I have the final version of the book in my hand. I don't make guesses based on playtest copies, hearsay from playtesters, redshirts, their friends mothers or pets.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oh for crying out loud Therion, stop playing games of semantics and just POST the information that you have, assuming you have any.
If you have something that you know, something of substance beyond 'You don't know what you think you know', then just come right out and say it.
BYE
4042
Post by: Da Boss
We're not saying the rumours are definitely true, otherwise they wouldn't be in the rumours board!
But people are voicing their opinions on the rumours. No need to get snide with them because of that.
I didn't see anyone saying "This is a cold hard fact: Daemons will have one statline.", just people saying what they thought of the RUMOUR that they will. If you have a fact, or counter rumour, post it, and watch it get discussed in a similar manner. Otherwise, I don't see how mocking people for engaging in the purpose of this board is constructive or polite. It really does make you look like a bit of an arrogant ass.
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Post by: Breotan
So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By Breotan on 04/24/2007 7:31 AM
So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.
Do me a favour mate and read the post above yours. It's pretty much sums up what my feelings are.
What is happening is that Therion is mocking us for discussing rumours.
This has nothing to do with the validity of the rumours, or any rumours. It's about someone actually making snide and arrogant comments about people discussing rumours, whilst at the same time going 'Ha! These are wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why'. This is why I call on him. If he knows they're wrong, then why sit there laughing at us. Why not tell us why they're wrong. What's so damned hard about that?
And as an aside, as far as burdens of proof are concerned when it comes to rumours, things that are inherently unconfirmed, you usually have to go on precedent for 'proof'. Brimstone, and his track record, is a pretty good precedent if you ask me. All Therion has is... well... he hasn't told us yet has he.
Has it told you?
BYE
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Post by: Therion-
Posted By Breotan on 04/24/2007 7:31 AM
So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.
The acolytes always defend their master fiercely.
It really does make you look like a bit of an arrogant ass. That really is no concern of mine. If you're so hurt by a dissenting opinion you need to re-think your whole ideology.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Tell that to Brother Dunnikin.
1249
Post by: Therion-
All Therion has is... well... he hasn't told us yet has he. The fact that you don't question wild rumours before I tell you which games designer I've got my extensive knowledge from is lunacy. That's what my posts are about. Brimstone never ever reveals his sources if he even has any, and he always labels his rumours as mere rumours and nothing factual, but I digress. Arguing which liar is more authoritative (as opposed to truthful based on evidence) is something the human race used to do in archaic courts 2500 years ago.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
...
This is a rumours board.
Not a "Facts" board. Anyone posting/reading here takes the rumours with a grain of salt. It doesn't stop them from discussing the rumours, the merits and the bad bits. That's what we have been doing.
What you've been doing is going "Haha!You fools! So easily taken in by a rumour! Lies, all lies!" etc, when none of us have actually said "OMG I believe this rumour 100%, Brimstone is my master, he is the always right!"
I don't understand at all where you're coming from- you seem to have managed to a) Misunderstand that this is a Rumours board, b)Misread the title, which states that these are rumours, c) and misunderstood the discussion of rumours as a discussion of supposed facts.
I'm not hurt by a disenting opinion, believe me. But I'm trying to point out that you seem to be making a lot of assumptions, which are groundless, and misunderstanding what's going on.
Cheers for telling me I need to re-think my whole ideology without actually knowing what it is by the way, very amusing.
The reason I pointed out that you looked like an ass was because perhaps you were unaware of the fact, if you don't care, then fine, whatever.
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Post by: Toreador
The one question Therion is, are you more valid than anyone else? Most of the people posting about the Chaos book on the Warseer forum have posted correct rumours about other products in the past. It's pretty much a case of "who do we believe more?" I can't say that I have ever heard anything from you about rumours, or have any basis to believe what you say.
It is also very believable that if there are two books, and the first is more about an Undivided Chaos force, that the daemons would have generic profiles. Without much more from you to back up what you say, we don't have much to go on.
1464
Post by: Breotan
Posted By Therion- on 04/24/2007 7:37 AM
The acolytes always defend their master fiercely.
Huh?
4042
Post by: Da Boss
He's implying that we all worship Brimstone as our master, and so are responding to critisisms of Brimstone as a source, rather than his attitude.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/24/2007 7:22 AM
Oh for crying out loud Therion, stop playing games of semantics and just POST the information that you have, assuming you have any.
Your half-cryptic, half-arrogant bull$hit is getting tiresome.
If you have something that you know, something of substance beyond 'You don't know what you think you know', then just come right out and say it.
BYE
Seconded. Thats the current state of the rumors, from a reliable source. This is a rumors forum.
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Post by: Therion-
Like I said, you're not interested about whether a rumour is based on truth or not. You're only interested who is posting the rumour, and like I also said, debating with credentials instead of facts is archaic and slowed. I have to go now so I won't be able to reply in a while, but I'll note that I have nothing against people discussing mere rumours. I will however try to remind you of their extreme unreliability whenever I see the tone of the discussion changing from rumours to accepted fact. Think of me as the voice of reason you don't want to listen to. I may or may not have more information than your source but it is completely irrelevant. I'm not the type of person who takes anything on blind faith, and neither should you.
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Post by: Frazzled
Like I said, you're not interested about whether a rumour is fact or not. You're only interested who is posting the rumour, and like I also said, debating with credentials instead of facts is archaic and slowed.
*******************************************************
No people acting arrogant as if they have secret knowledge, not sharing that supposed knowledge is the slowed aspect. Really. Is Brimstone 100% accurate-no. But he is generally reliable. How about you boyo?
Put up or shut up.
2035
Post by: Khornatedemon
Anyone hear if vindi's will be 0-1 like they currently are for IW? I'd take the loss of a bassie if I could field 2 vindi's.
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Post by: Alpharius
OK, I'll bite...
Any chance you could tell me just how close to the current Chaos Codex the new Chaos Codex will let me make my Alpha Legion force?
It is an all infantry, all infiltrating force ("Tac" squads, HTH squads and Tank Hunting Havoc Squads) with cultists used to summon Daemonettes...
Thanks!
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Post by: Frazzled
Well Alpharius your marine list are "chaos" marines. The new list is for "chaos." See the similarities?
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Post by: jmurph
WTH? When did this go from a Chaos rumors thread to a self congratulatory critique of truthseeking and political commentary?
My initial reaction is that watered down daemons and cults is craptacular. Making a doomsiren just a hands free flamer is very weak. And no blastmaster havoc squads makes me question what exactly EC are supposed to do (look pretty). Maybe that AP3 thingy will help.
So if daemonbomb and IW vanish that seems to make Necrons, Eldar, and Tyranids look really hot.
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Post by: Alpharius
Posted By jfrazell on 04/24/2007 2:37 PM
Well Alpharius your marine list are "chaos" marines. The new list is for "chaos." See the similarities?
Ha! ? The only similarities I see so far when using the (admittedly only rumors at this point) new Chaos Marine Codex is that SOME of my squads will be able to infiltrate. At this point, I'm not sure that my Lord will be able to do so. There are no cultists. And every background limitation that used to exist for certain cults/legions no longer does. My other Chaos army *was* going to be Emperor's Children. And maybe it still will be... but it isn't looking good so far...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By Therion- on 04/24/2007 7:53 AM
The fact that you don't question wild rumours before I tell you which games designer I've got my extensive knowledge from is lunacy.
Before I continue I just need a bit of clarification - I need to know what planet you're from. That would help me greatly.
Anyway, moving on from that, I think that everyone here knows than when we discuss rumours on a rumour board, we understand the basic concept of what a rumour is, and we don't see these rumours as fact until they are proven so. Until such time as they are confirmed as fact, we continue to discuss the implication of these rumours and what would happen if they did turn out to be fact. We don't sit there going 'It's not true!' nor do we attack people with snide and arrogant comments for even thinking about discussing rumours. These latter part seems to be your aim.
To put it another way, if a rumour came up saying that Long Fangs were being removed from the next Space Puppie Codex we, as a group, could go 'This may not be true, but if it were true I think the following...'.
Hence the reason this is a rumour discussion board, for the discussion of the rumours. We're not taking anything as gospel, so stop sniping at the people discussing the rumours because, quite frankly, you don't know any more than the rest of us do...
... unless you do know something, then stop being so damned cryptic.
BYE
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
I can't wait to make my Death Guard berserker army! Sweet! Then I can field my Chaos UN daemon ambassador unit (1 screamer + 1 horror + 1 flamer + 1 plaguebearer + 1 fleshhound + 1 bloodletter + 1 daemonette + 1 daemonette on a steed + 1 fury + 1 nurgling = U-N-I-T-Y) and still be WYSIWYG! I think I'll take some Emperor's Children bikers with the Mark of Nurgle (T6 = SWEET) to summon them. Gnarly! And my Bloodkeeper of Unclean Change won't even take up a FOC slot! Righteous! This codex sounds totally sweet and that's a fact. Oh, and in before lock.
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Post by: Frazzled
So if marks were true I wonder if your oblit could take a Nurgle mark and keep his toughness.
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Post by: Lowinor
No one has commented on each CSM being equipped with bolter, bp, and ccw? How much is a basic CSM going to cost if that's true? I mean, that's better than True Grit, whether or not you play the rapid fire rules as carrying a rapid fire weapon as opposed to shooting it. But really, most of what's in this set of rumors is pretty much in line with what I was expecting from the change anyway. No big surprises. Shame if daemons are getting dumbed down as such, but otherwise, meh -- Chaos is flagrantly overpowered (speaking as a Chaos player). Most of the vaunted armory that's (theoretically) getting whacked devolves to mathhammer anyway. Daemons having the same statline across the board may or may not be a bad thing; as has been said, Bloodletters and Daemonettes are the only useful ones now, and if the conformed stat line looks like either of those two models, the actual change to daemons on the tabletop will be fairly minor. I'm more curious about what changes will be made to summoning. Any comments on Dreadclaws becoming standard codex gear? The big change in the rumor set is lack of infiltration on standard CSM squads; this changes up a lot of army lists, not just Alpha Legion.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
I wouldn't doubt it.
I think that everyone should probably calm down and start waiting till more concrete stuff comes in. I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is. Cult armies are still possible, with more choice. Demons, I don't see getting completely restricted to one statline. I see them getting like Rending and then Marks to beef them up, with just a 5+ Inv to protect them. Khorne goes down a notch, Slanesh stays the same, and Nurgle/Tzeench just got a crap load better. Or they'll not be able to ignore armor, and they'll get relegated to slow duty and thus the Demon Bomb army is dead.
Still, with FOUR model ranges at a minimum for the regular demons (not counting beasts) that span both 40k and Fantasy, with rumored plastic kits coming, it doesn't make $$ sense to limit them rules wise and GW is all about the benjamins.
We don't know what the options are for the DP, who now can't be instant killed. We don't know how the options will be for the Lord/LT, other than Infiltrate/Speed is going away and I think it's pretty safe to say that it's something that should die a terrible death (sorry Skyth).
And hey, if Nurgle can make Oblits T5 and every chaos army can take 9 of them - hey look they'll be able to stand up to Nidzilla & Eldar.
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Post by: Lowinor
Oh, I should say though, that if these rumors turn out to be fairly accurate, it'll make me (at least) more likely to pick Chaos back up; it won't be such a spoiler list, and terminators might be viable (and after the loyalist plastic terminators, I have high hopes for the Chaos plastics), and Thousand Sons look to be at least useful -- they've pretty much always been my favorite legion model, and I'd love to be able to field some and have them be useful.
2080
Post by: Samwise158
I also agree that regardless of the veracity of these rumours, the Chaos Dex needed a nerfing, but they should be really careful. The last codex established a precedent that every undivided chapter has a unique fighting style (IW, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers) and gave them really powerful special rules. A lot of those armies, like Alpharius pointed out, are going to need to be re-aligned big time. Looking at the list of rumours I'm glad that I play a pretty well rounded Black Legion force, but I don't see how it will be possible to preserve the character of the undivided legions.
I've noticed that there are way more DIY Space Marines players than DIY Chaos chapters. This has got to be because of the legion specific rules in the last codex, and I think a lot of people are going to be miffed that their Iron Warriors are no different than Word Bearers.
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Post by: Cyric036
@ lowinor Re: CSM with BP, bolters and ccw: In their new Codex, DA Tactical's are armed with BP, Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak and still cost the same as they always have.
Seems to be the way of things with Jervis's new direction: No more "Nuts I forgot to buy frags for those guys"
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Post by: Hellfury
I have to agree it makes sense.
Every unit that has acess to grenades should be carrying them. Not merely specific units that pay points to carry them.
Grenades from my viewpoint are standard gear, just like their standard armaments (bolter) and sidearms (pistol, knife).
FRom a manufacturing perspective, it also makes sense, since the chaos marine sprue comes with bolters and BP/ccw.
This does cause a very slight problem with WYSIWYG though. I am sure WYSIWYG is becoming more and more less strict as time goes on.
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Post by: Lowinor
Posted By Cyric036 on 04/25/2007 6:25 AM
@ lowinor Re: CSM with BP, bolters and ccw: In their new Codex, DA Tactical's are armed with BP, Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak and still cost the same as they always have.
Seems to be the way of things with Jervis's new direction: No more "Nuts I forgot to buy frags for those guys"
Er, I thought DAs only got the bolter and bolt pistol, but no ccw to get the second attack. Of course, I don't have the codex on hand to check...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I always entertained the idea that the Chaos were far more... well... Chaotic. They don't have a standard kit - they have whatever they had left after the heresy, whatever they've taken/stolen/inherited since then, so the idea of them all having grenades wouldn't sit right with me from a fluff perspective.
BYE
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Hellfury on 04/25/2007 6:32 AM
This does cause a very slight problem with WYSIWYG though. I am sure WYSIWYG is becoming more and more less strict as time goes on.
Yep. When you buy a "Tactical Squad" or "Chaos Lord" with no further options then that, the WYSIWYG component is much lesser important.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.
Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book. Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list. Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Can you imagine? Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book? That's impossible! How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies? I mean, Blood Angels really really :heart: jump packs and Dark Angels really really :heart: teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really :heart: either very extra much. This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list. On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer? I don't think so.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/25/2007 7:33 AM
I always entertained the idea that the Chaos were far more... well... Chaotic. They don't have a standard kit - they have whatever they had left after the heresy, whatever they've taken/stolen/inherited since then, so the idea of them all having grenades wouldn't sit right with me from a fluff perspective.
That's why I hate how they're apparently doing away with chosen and replacing them with terminators and veterans again. I liked how chosen could have mixed terminator/power armor squads. Not really useful in-game, but nice from a fluff perspective. Now power armor chosen go back to being Chaos' 3+ sv scout-equivalent. Thanks Jervis.
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Post by: keichi246
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/25/2007 8:42 AM Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.
Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book. Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list. Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Can you imagine? Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book? That's impossible! How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies? I mean, Blood Angels really really :heart: jump packs and Dark Angels really really :heart: teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really :heart: either very extra much. This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list. On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer? I don't think so.
Abadabadoobaddon, There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever. Only halfway through 3rd edition did most of the Legions get any *definitive* army differences - kinda like the Eldar did with their Craftworlds. And a bunch of second string Space Marine armies. Which so far have ALL gotten nuked by the 4th Ed codices. Dark Angels and Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines, on the other hand, have had separate books for over 13 years. Now - do I agree with you that all the Space Marine codices probably could have been one book? Yes. However - since GW created the precedent of a handful of Big name Chapter books as separate books two game versions ago - and it IS their cash cow; they have the right to continue as they were. (Nor would I mind them consolidating back either - but is neither here nor there) Then again - I have no problem with all Chaos being one book either. Until 2002 - World Eaters were angry Chaos guys painted red. Sure they had background and history, but army list wise - they just picked appropriate units form the Chaos list and went to town. I see nothing in the rumors that indicate you WON'T be able to do that again. (and gain a little flexibilty as well - now you can have a handful of the gun happy maniacs who express their rage at the universe with remote application of high explosives; aka artillery. Blood for the Blood God because I dropped a demolisher shell on you and your squadmates, baby!) You see - I beleive that "special rules do not an army make". I am strongly of the opinion that MOST variant armies; if not all - should not have *any* special rules advantages over their parent army. A special/variant unit - maybe. But that's about it. Everything else should come from background, paint scheme, etc. Which is how Chaos was until this last revision. You want World Eaters - fine - take lots of Marked Berserker units, a handful of demons, etc.
You want IW - fine - take lots of gunline units, and maybe some artillery.
You want the Dark Crusade of Iggy the Unlikely? Take whatever units you feel like out of the Codex, with whatever paint scheme floats your boat. As long as the Codex is properly balanced and pointed - I'll work with it. And frankly -the demon changes make me think, "hmm - I can get Non- bloodletter demons that DON'T suck? Maybe that Chaos army I back burnered a while ago might happen after all."
But I will wait and see. I'm actually kind of hopefull that these changes will be good. So far I see little I don't like.
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Post by: skyth
Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM other than Infiltrate/Speed is going away and I think it's pretty safe to say that it's something that should die a terrible death (sorry Skyth).
Well, I knew it was going away just because it's something people whined alot about regardless if there was a basis to the whining, just like the starcannon, the assault cannon, small heavy weapon-toting tac squads, etc.
I'm just annoyed that I have 10 models modeled as centaurs with daemonic speed that I won't be able to use any more.
2270
Post by: Cyric036
Yeah, sorry my bad. No CCW for DA tac squads.
621
Post by: Lowinor
Ok, the standard gear on a CSM has got me thinking more about it, that being: bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frags.
The closest equivalent model out there is a Grey Hunter, and when equipped similarly with true grit, bolter, ccw, frags, costs 19 points. That's a nice chunk of points, and it's still inferior to the CSM as rumored (even playing firing any weapon while carrying rapid fire prevents you from charging, you still get an extra attack on the charge; if you play the more routine interpretation, you get a shot and an extra attack on the charge).
So what does Chaos look like with a base 20 point marine?
I'd have to say I suspect it should be "bolter or bolt pistol, ccw, frags" instead. If not, it's just... unusual.
4043
Post by: beefHeart
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/25/2007 8:42 AM Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.
Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book. Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list. Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Can you imagine? Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book? That's impossible! How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies? I mean, Blood Angels really really :heart: jump packs and Dark Angels really really :heart: teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really :heart: either very extra much. This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list. On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer? I don't think so.
Honestly if you removed all the crap from the SM codex there is no reason why it couldn't include all the SM chapters. In fact I would argue that if GW's method of developing the chapter rules was any good every chapter should be able to be derived out of the trait system... chaos or any other army should be no different. The current system of codicies (sp) only serves as an example of how poorly the system is constructed. ie. special rules, inconsistencies and a certain level of ambiguity. The only way GW can think to fix it is to dumb it all down. Soon I fear the only differences between the armies of 40k will be the colors they are painted.
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Post by: Eslöv
They should just re-release Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned with updated rules. That would do it for me, balancing and tournament viability be damned.
365
Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By keichi246 on 04/25/2007 9:30 AM
Abadabadoobaddon,
There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever.
Well you ~would~ have a point, if it weren't for the fact that you are completely wrong. Both Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned came out back when Space Wolves were still just grey Ultramarines. Those books contained rules for all the different types daemons we have today (except Furies and Screamers which hadn't been invented yet) plus some we don't (Beasts of Nurgle, Fiends of Slaanesh). It also included beastmen, cultists, DIY daemon weapons, and pages upon pages of mutations and gifts. Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all got separate army lists. But now it seems that we have come to a point where GW is no longer willing to support these units and armies as separate entities. So while they go about inventing differences for marine chapters that in the past have been mostly codex (apart from Deathwing and Ravenwing Dark Angels were supposed to be a codex chapter), at the same time they are eliminating armies and unit types that have been around since Rogue Trader (when you take 9 distinct varieties of daemon and cram them into a single unit entry with identical stats, then yes I consider that to be practically the same as eliminating 8 of the 9 flavors of daemon). It is absurd that we need separate books for armies whose primary troop choices are identical (tac marines), yet an army composed of frothing madmen with chainaxes and an army consisting almost entirely of mindless empty suits of armor have to be covered by a single simplified list. So if these rumors are true, it looks like the cult marines are going to be reduced to the Chaos equivalent of aspect warriors and cult legions are going the way of the Deathwing. On the other hand, it's virtually impossible to convey how much Blood Angels REALLY :heart: jump packs (x2) without giving them their own book!
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Post by: Da Boss
Of course!
D'uh.
Jeez Abadabadoobaddon, state the obvious.
Space Marines deserve all the attention because "They're original!" (Yup, because power armour and super soldiers were never around before GW!) or "They make the most money!" (Yup, because marketing the other races and giving them as much support wouldn't boost their sales at ALL)
and "They've been around ages!Stop whining! All you guys ever do is whine! Maybe you should quit if you hate it so much. (Yup, we should. You'll all have way more fun playing space marines vs space marines all day.)
(Sorry for arguing against strawmen there.)
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Post by: keichi246
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:28 AM Posted By keichi246 on 04/25/2007 9:30 AM
Abadabadoobaddon,
There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever.
Well you ~would~ have a point, if it weren't for the fact that you are completely wrong. Both Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned came out back when Space Wolves were still just grey Ultramarines.
Ok - so your history- fu is better than mine. Then again - where are the Harlequin Land Raiders, Eldar laguns, and IG Jetbikes? Or the fact that those books were also designed to work with Fantasy?
Things HAVE changed a wee bit in the 3 editions since then. Tell me - Why do Demons *have* to have different stat lines? Because they did in the past? Times and versions change. Who picks Horrors any more? Nobody. Why? - because they SUCK by comparison to other demons. Why are Bloodletters ludicrously popular? because they are amazing for their points costs. Look, no one is saying - "no other demons exist anymore". They are saying "look - Demonettes, Bloodletters, and Horrors all fulfill about the same role on the battlefield, should be about the same power level, and *should* do about the same amount of damage." They get summoned - they attack, they kill things or get killed. After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way? Secondly - repeat after me: "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa." The Legions *do* have background out the ass. However, they don't *need* extra special rules mechanics; *if* the basic rules mechanics are flexible enough to be used to represent them. Some of the limitations put on the Legions in codex 3.5 didn't make sense - and some of the "bennies" didn't exactly work out right either. So if a basic set of rules *can* cover it - let them... Finally - you seem to have snipped the part where I agreed with you about the Space Marine codex. I *play* Dark Angels and would have been perfectly happy being told "take the basic codex" - or having one page of minor changes explaining the differences between the Dark Angels and "codex". Even with Deathwing and Ravenwing. Are GW unfair in the way they distribute Codices? Yes. Just ask an Ork player. Chaos is going to have had 2 full revisions (and god knows how many changes inserted in different print runs) between the Ork codices. But then again - business has NOTHING to do with fairness... Space Marines make GW money - and let them stay in business so they can print stuff like Chaos and Eldar codices. As a wise man once told me: "Life sucks. Wear a cup." What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering. But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
There we go!
The business argument.
I knew it wasn't a real straw man, it kept trying to get away as I was nailing it up.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM Secondly - repeat after me: "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa." The Legions *do* have background out the ass. However, they don't *need* extra special rules mechanics; *if* the basic rules mechanics are flexible enough to be used to represent them. Some of the limitations put on the Legions in codex 3.5 didn't make sense - and some of the "bennies" didn't exactly work out right either. So if a basic set of rules *can* cover it - let them...
Yes they do, look at dark angels players. "Finally! Rules that match fluff!" (even though that fluff hasnt existed since 2nd edition) "I can finally divide my troops into two squads! Like the fluff says!" ( in second edition) GW is just going to alter the fluff to match the new rules, just like DA.
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Post by: keichi246
Posted By Da Boss on 04/26/2007 8:52 AM
There we go!
The business argument.
I knew it wasn't a real straw man, it kept trying to get away as I was nailing it up.
Yeah, well... I was typing up my reply as you were typing yours.... And - alas - it is also true. As much as people may think it - GW ain't stupid. I *know* that GW has done research that has said "people like Sci-fi powered armor". I can assure you that it was the reason *I* got into 40k. They ARE a business, and Space marines DO certainly make them money. So yeah - they ARE going to do things to encourage those sales. Should they look at broadening their horizons more? I personally think so. I do believe that if they properly supported the other races - they would sell more; which would help overall. But it is a matter of will and sucking up short and mid-term losses to get possibly better long term - and GW is hesitant to do that. (for spectacularly obvious reasons - see stock prices). But this an old,dead, beaten horse...
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Post by: Da Boss
*Kicks the horse again*
We'll see how much money they make off the new ork list, personally I expect it to be massively popular.
If it ever gets released.
What you fail to take into account is burnout of the fanbase due to this kind of crap.
If GW rely on word of mouth, and previously enthusiastic, club starting gamers like myself begin to detest them and stop bothering with newbies etc, that ain't gonna be good, neither.
(Obviously only on a large scale- I'm not concieted enough to think I have any major effect on sales!)
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Post by: keichi246
Posted By Da Boss on 04/26/2007 9:24 AM
*Kicks the horse again*
We'll see how much money they make off the new ork list, personally I expect it to be massively popular.
If it ever gets released.
What you fail to take into account is burnout of the fanbase due to this kind of crap.
If GW rely on word of mouth, and previously enthusiastic, club starting gamers like myself begin to detest them and stop bothering with newbies etc, that ain't gonna be good, neither.
I'm not a 100% sure on "massively" popular Orks - but we'll see... (there are some core problems with the Ork koncept that will prevent them from ever being an army that is as popular as Space Marines - namely the number of boyz you have to buy and paint. Unpainted plastic space marines look (badly) like guys in grey armor. Unpainted orks just look terrible. )  Oh - and I am not failing to take burnout into account. I'm just separating my personal opinions from the argument. I think they SHOULD do more with the xenos and less with the marines. I just understand why GW may not want to. Heck - *I'm* nearly burnt out - the last 9 months I've purchased 3 items total - and one of the releases was for one of my armies! (Eldar Codex, Dark Angel Codex and DA Vet Squad. I've spent more on Aeronautica Imperialis in the past 2 months than I have on all other GW related products combined for the past year.
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Post by: Da Boss
My personal opinion is my argument. There's no seperating it.
I'm fed up of 40K in a lot of ways, but I still love fantasy. Great game, great rules, great release strategy.
I'm sorry for coming across as a bitter old fart, but i get really sick of the arguments I posted above.
Anyway, I also play chaos, (death gaurd, converted from plastic marines and zombies) and the new changes don't worry me too much. If they're true. I'll still play 'em- they'll no doubt still be viable. It's interesting that at the time, the Chaos codex was seen as the template for 4th ed codices, and now it's being redone. Before Orks.
*pops a blood vessel*
But no matter. If GW looks like it's being run by indecisive, arsehole ten year olds so be it.
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Post by: Asmodai
Sometime in 2006 GW had a complete reversal about what they wanted 40K 4th to be.
No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.
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Post by: Da Boss
They really need to get it sorted.
Seriously.
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Post by: orks gone wild
They will , ( Waves Hand in front of Self )
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Post by: WarsmithDave
Heh heh, we shouldn't hold our breath. Listening to GW talking about their game systems is often like watching the Bush administration discuss their failing policies. Not acceptance that anything is fundamentally not working and complete denial. Its refreshing that they will even admit to something being wrong with fourth edition. Its just too bad that solution is to go back to power armoured armies (who saw that one coming). That fact is that whether we like it or not they're changing things, and we won't know for better or worse till we have the majority of these new dexs out and can see the new balance. Its not like GW has really cared much about what we faithfuls have to say. Most of their decisions are geared to getting more people in the hobby. Those of us who have been playing for years are just assumed to continue to buy their products. In other words we're already infected and have long reached the terminal stage in most cases.
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Post by: Toreador
I think it has something to do with better balance for overall play.
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Post by: Da Boss
I hope so. I try to be optimistic, but it's hard. I'm a very cynical kind of person.
I hope it plays like a dream. And thinks like daemon princes and whatnot needed a toning down.
Sher we'll see when we see I suppose.
I'm more curious than apprehensive over all.
I wouldn't be suprised if Daemons were allowed chaos marks like marines, thus making them as individual as cult marines, which would be enough for me. As for greater daemons, I'd rather they kept their statlines seperate, but it's had to balance.
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Post by: Therion-
On the other hand, it's virtually impossible to convey how much Blood Angels REALLY jump packs (x2) without giving them their own book! I wholeheartedly agree with you Abadabadoobaddon. Chaos has, and has always had, more potential for multiple codexes than loyalists. However, we've all gone way past being shocked that we get blue Marines, grey Marines, black Marines, green Marines, red Marines and so and forth before we get new armies. Like you so eloquently put it, we must get Blood Angels before we get Orks, Dark Eldar etc. because Blood Angels looooove jump packs and that makes them so very different to Ultramarines that they're like a whole new race! I think I came to the point of having enough of 40K altogether when I first saw the new Codex: Black Templars that took almost a year to design. All of the new rules could've been printed on half a page, or less. Now I'm pretty impartial to all of this as I've long ago sold all of my 40K armies and instead been hoarding FB armies. Fantasy Battle is heading to the right direction mainly because the head designer Alessio Cavatore is a real gamer who is gently pushing Tuomas Pirinen's invention to a more core infantry friendly direction. When Alessio designs rules he isn't making them with his five year old daughter in mind.
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah that breally pissed me off.
If Jervis's son played orks, would his speeches be more like "Hey, I was talking to my son, and he said to me, do you know what he said? He said "Dad, Orks suck. I never win any games." And that made me think. It made me think that Orks suck, so now I've realigned our entire system to make them rock. It's important to keep in touch with these type of things, as a Dad."
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Post by: Toreador
Alessio Cavatore did Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Skaven didn't he? Yeah, great track record there. He is getting better though...
WHFB has been going quite some time with the same system. It is more polished at this point, where as 40k basically did a system reset. It's going to be a bit bumpy until they polish it up over the years.
WHFB still has it's balance issues....
Orks are coming. have patience. They don't overbalance anything and are getting a huge overhaul from all indications. I still have a great time beating up on marines with them. BA and Chaos take a lot less work, and go a long way to balancing everything overall. If they can change Orks so it can compete with Tau and Eldar, we have gone a lot further towards a game where most armies can participate.
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Post by: Da Boss
I have had a lot of patience. As in, I haven't sold my army yet.
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Post by: Toreador
I have actually been buying more orks. Been having a great time lately playing them again. 1500pts changes a lot of things really.
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Post by: Therion-
Toreador I don't know if you've been paying attention but Alessio Cavatore wrote the FB 7th edition. What he did with army books in the past is proof that he wants armies to have real punch in them and he isn't afraid of using them either. He's played a Skaven Skryre gunline at tournaments. He knows what it means to play seriously and what players will be looking for in army books. Anthony Reynolds did the same when he wrote for example the Lizardmen and Brets. It's guys like Jervis who don't fit the picture. They think about their five year old kid and whether the kid's going to have trouble understanding the meaning of all the wargear. WHFB has been going quite some time with the same system. It is more polished at this point, where as 40k basically did a system reset. It's going to be a bit bumpy until they polish it up over the years. WHFB 6th edition was an entire system reset from 5th edition, and now the new 7th edition is a refined version. 40K 3rd edition was a system reset, and 4th edition was the refined version. 40K should've been balanced long ago. WHFB still has it's balance issues.... What are those exactly? Flyers still a tad too powerful? Skirmishers still very damn useful? All-cav armies still popular? Masses of cheap and expendable infantry popular? Gunlines still very popular? Heavy magic still very effective despite the nerfs? Oh wait, I've just named all the different types of armies or stratagems as very powerful and popular. Any FB GT can be won by many variants of atleast Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Chaos, Bretonnians, Lizardmen, or Skaven, and with a better than average player also by Empire, O&G, Dark Elves, High Elves, or Ogres. The same can really not be said of 40K. FB doesn't have Space Marines or armied based on Space Marines, or MEQ. FB has a wide variety of races that have a wide variety of advantages and disadvantages. WHFB 7th edition is almost perfect as a game. If we got one page of Q&A with proper answers from GW to a couple of rules disputes it would be flawless but even those can easily be solved on a tournament by tournament basis or by major unofficial FAQs like Direwolf. We'll never get that Q&A but understanding how few issues we actually have gives us some perspective. Now the army book development is leading towards the direction where core infantry is slightly lowered in price and increased in ability in order to make the slow and unwieldly units more attractive than before. An Orc Boyz unit is pretty much the best deal in the game right now, and the cheaper Empire State Troops with their detachment rules aren't bad at all either.
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Post by: Whatever
There's another really simple reason that we're being inundated with SM's and spinoffs. SM's have always been the baseline army that all other armies are compared against when it comes to game balance. They basically are the standard. That's why the codex's for them and their spinoffs come out first/early. They're that "baseline" army that determines whether the other armies are too strong or too weak. Dark Angels are that new baseline,at least until C:SM is redone. However,releasing a new BA list in a White Dwarf will allow them to generate more test data for their new direction without having to postpone another 'dex,like Orks. GW is running into conflicting needs. They need to put out SM lists to use to balance the "new" 4th ed,but at the same time,the Chaos 'dex is ridiculously broken and needs to be redone and the Orks need upgraded badly. A big reason why GW pushes hard for noobs is the simple fact that the lifespan of the average 40k player is only 3 years. Then,they get out of it. The #1 reason people get out of it is losing. When 3rd came out,a bunch of people at my local shop started getting into 40k. Most of us that started with Marine armies are still playing the game today. However,every single one that started with Dark Eldar had sold all their stuff and completely gotten out of the game a year later. That's because they couldn't win a game. I've NEVER seen DE win. A lot of this can be contributed to the fact that a lot of the options in the DE list weren't available yet. However,the DE players got frustrated with getting spanked all the time and got out of the game rather than tough it out and sink more $ into what they felt was a sinking ship. Now imagine being a noob and going up against the current Chaos list or 'zilla nids.
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Post by: WarsmithDave
Some good points comming up. Who among us if given the title of 40k Overlord wouldn't abuse it a bit an favour an army or two. I think the biggest reason so many get into 40k and don't last is mainly the targeted age group. GW has come to the conclusion that the easiest way to boost short term sales is to sell to 10-14 yr olds who either have plenty of disposable income, or have parents who do. To believe that most of these kids are going to stay GW faithfuls is naive at best. I myself started 40k at 12 and have been playing for 11 yrs. But I know a dozen or so who gave it up after a year at most.
I don't believe that every army can be perfectly balanced. A few will always be a bit better, and usually this will be the most popular. Its easy for noobs to the hobby to take up a race they like without doing much research before deciding. If GW were to have some policy on informing noobs about the virtue of certain armies (e.i. the few that are difficult to play) perhaps we'd have a more stable playing community. Though of course GW would never admit such a thing to noobies.
Perhaps I'm extra cynical. But I'm not going to ask GW to redo every dex till they're all equal. I look forward to a new Ork and DE dex, while I slightly dread the new BA and chaos dexs. Nothing I've ever seen has ever shown to me that GW is willing to change anything based on what us faithfuls really want changed. I'm trying hard to keep this from sounding like a rant. It just seems to me that most GW game designers have a sort of "I am the chosen of the gods" feeling about their role and that none of the actual players have any valid suggestions.
Personally I'm too deep to get out now. Whether GW nerfs all my armies or not I won't dump it. I feel no particular loyalty to GW, I just love the game and the fluff. As a history buff its the most expansive backround I've ever seen. It would be nice if GW would stop jerking around and make their minds up, but I won't hold my breath.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Tell me - Why do Demons *have* to have different stat lines.
Why does anything *have* to have different stat lines? Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Times and versions change. Who picks Horrors any more? Nobody. Why? - because they SUCK by comparison to other demons. Why are Bloodletters ludicrously popular? because they are amazing for their points costs.
The solution? Give Horrors and Bloodletters the same rules. Brilliant! Who picks Thousand Sons any more? Nobody. Why? Because they SUCK by comparison to other legions. Why are Iron Warriors ludicrously popular? Because they are amazing for their pts costs. The solution? Give Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors the same rules. I think this technique could be expanded to balance all of 40K! Who picks Orks any more? Nobody. Why? Because they SUCK by comparison to other armies. Why are Space Marines ludicrously popular? Because they are amazing for their pts costs. The solution? Give Orks and Space Marines Warriors the same rules. Hey, this is fun! I should be a games designer! Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Look, no one is saying - "no other demons exist anymore". They are saying "look - Demonettes, Bloodletters, and Horrors all fulfill about the same role on the battlefield, should be about the same power level, and *should* do about the same amount of damage." They get summoned - they attack, they kill things or get killed.
I could apply that same argument to every unit in the game. Afterall, every unit fulfills about the same role on the battlefield (to defeat the enemy), right? Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way.
This is a good idea which should be expanded. For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex. Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way? So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard). Not only would this shut up all those whiney Ork players (boohoo, we haven't got a codex in 10 years!), it would also immediately bring Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar more in line with the power level established by the Dark Angel codex. And best of all, it would free up space on the release schedule for a Codex: Death Company!! SWEET!!! Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Secondly - repeat after me: "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa."
Not necessarily. When's the last time you heard mention of a Fiend of Slaanesh? Or a Squat? Or a Zoat? They change the background to fit the rules and the models all the time. If they phase something out in the rules and don't mention it in any more then it pretty much ceases to exist as part of the background. Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Are GW unfair in the way they distribute Codices? Yes. Just ask an Ork player. Chaos is going to have had 2 full revisions (and god knows how many changes inserted in different print runs) between the Ork codices. But then again - business has NOTHING to do with fairness...
Yes I know. GW is a business and 40K is a product. But so is McDonalds. That doesn't mean I have to like eating crap. Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Space Marines make GW money - and let them stay in business so they can print stuff like Chaos and Eldar codices.
I would rather they NOT print Chaos and Eldar codices if they're just going to smear their pages with feces. Let them screw up all 1000 Space Marine chapters first. Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering. But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.
Oh I have not yet begun to froth, baby! I've been expecting this ever since the Eldar codex and I'm itching to start getting worked up in earnest. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, but I've been waiting for a long time and the only surprises I've gotten have been of the oops-I-crapped-my-pants variety. I know Chaos is due a downpowering. That doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is the wholesale elimination of units that have been distinct since Rogue Trader. What bothers me is that they are making every legion = Black Legion (just don't take units X, Y, and Z to be fluffy). What bothers me is that all this is occuring while they scratch their heads and try to invent enough ways Blood Angels could be "different" from Ultramarines to fill up an entire codex.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Posted By WarsmithDave on 04/26/2007 5:36 PM
I don't believe that every army can be perfectly balanced. A few will always be a bit better, and usually this will be the most popular. Its easy for noobs to the hobby to take up a race they like without doing much research before deciding.
This is why it is actually in GW's interest for Space Marines to be more powerful and popular than other armies. The profit margins on Space Marines are higher than on other armies because of the large number of SM plastic kits (after the initial investment plastic is cheaper than metal to produce) so the greater the % of players with SM armies the better. And by getting almost everyone to play a marines and then constantly focusing on them they can satisfy a larger number of people than if there were a more even distribution of players. This then means that rules imbalances aren't as problematic as long as marines wind up near the top (who cares if Orks are underpowered?). Finally, since beginners are encouraged to play marines, giving them powerful rules helps retain new players (losing all the time isn't fun). So you have a system that relies on attracting new players (ages 10-14), selling them a bunch of marine plastics, and retaining them for as long as possible (usually a couple years). If they become regulars then great, if not then no matter - noobs can be replaced.
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Post by: Whatever
The point about plastic kits applies to any army,though. GW's trend is more towards plastic for everything,plastic Termies and Demons for Chaos,for example. Imperial Guard are almost entirely plastic now. Marines have always been popular for many reasons. 1-They are human,which makes players feel like they're playing for the home team,but unlike IG,they are super-powered bad-ass humans instead of disposable cannon fodder. 2-The high points cost per model means buying less figs to make an army. This is actually a big blow against GW pushing SM's. They don't sell as many models,so they don't make as much money. 3-Less models also means less models to assemble and paint. Space Marines are also ridiculously easy to paint and at least make look decent. They also don't have as many outlandish bits(like Chaos),so they're easier to assemble. 4-Due to their high toughness and armor saves,SM's(and MEQ's)can at times overcome poor tactical moves with a few good die rolls. Until broken 'dex's like 3rd ed Eldar,Chaos II,and 4th 'nids came out,even a pretty basic SM force had at least a chance to beat any army it came accross because of this. 5-Since most of the SM's advantages lie in their statline,they don't have a whole lot of special rules for players to remember,while other books,like Chaos II and 'nids have a ridiculous amount. A ton of rules intimidates a lot of gamers,not just kids,so they gravitate towards SM's for simplicity's sake. All in all,40k will never be perfectly balanced. Some armies will and should have harder times with some armies and an easier time with others. However,the power scale is way out of wack in 40k right now. There's 3-4 dominant armies,then there's everybody else.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:02 PM Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering. But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.
Oh I have not yet begun to froth, baby!
Dooby is right. You should have seen him when the latest 3rd ed codex came out. When he saw what was happening to his 1k sons, he had a coniption and part of imperial dakka was turned into a blasted heath. IRCC, that why Russ moved the board. Dooby's extreme ire caused a partial rift in the board, and since it was no longer wholly stable, he moved us away for our own safety. Atleast, thats what Russ told me....
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Post by: Agamemnon2
This is a good idea which should be expanded. For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex. Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way? So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard).
Dark Eldar players would rejoice if they could get even that much, methinks. Plus we'd have the ultimate "counts as" list to shut up the mewling hordes of Squat / Zoat / Jokaero / Grox fans. Sounds like a win-win to me.
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Post by: skwpp
I agree with Therion. Fantasy does seem like a better balanced and better thought through game at the moment. Im leaning more and more towards quitting 40k. Just feel like im losing interest in the game despite being somewhat content with the new eldar codex. Besides, i dont really have time for two games anyways.
The biigest thing that needs to be fixed in fantasy is elite infantry imo. Doesnt seem to be a good choice for any army compared to cheaper variants.
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Post by: Toreador
I am not going to say it isn't better, because WHFB is. It has been slowly being smoothed out for some time now.
Hero hammer still has some very large affects in the game with lords on dragons being a fault.
If you hadn't noticed, the new WHFB rules didn't change a great amount.
Allesso also apologized after some UK tournament about how cheesy the Skaven codex was. Mistakes are made.
They had an accidental nerf of the Skaven army, in two parts, which was needed. Which also stopped that rampaging cheese fest. Vampire counts is still very much hero hammer. High Elves and Dark Elves don't have much of a chance without fielding an almost all cav force. WHFB still has issues, and problems. Just a lot fewer than 40k. High Elves should hopefully be fixed before the year is out.
And until the Chaos codex comes out, I don't think anyone should start stamping around screaming about the daemons. We don't know much of anything at the moment. They could be just that, generic undivided daemons with the specific power daemons coming in another book. At this point we just don't know enough.
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Post by: Antonin
I would say 40K players stop after a few years because it gets a bit tedious to rely so much on luck and so little on tactical maneuvers. After you've built your army list and put together the awesome infiltrating/first-turn charging demon prince of doom, and used it once, it loses appeal - it's the same fight every time after that. If you're playing with your friends, the games will definitely look the same over and over again - the only way you have a chance for variety is if your friends buy ridiculous numbers of models and change their armies, or you go to tournaments. Then, all you see are the same single power build that everyone has worked up.
Fantasy has those tactical moves; I bet the gaming lifespan for fantasy players is much longer than 40K players.
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Post by: skyth
Posted By Antonin on 04/27/2007 7:51 AM
I would say 40K players stop after a few years because it gets a bit tedious to rely so much on luck and so little on tactical maneuvers.
Then you obviously don't play against the right people. Granted, if you use 'tactical maneuvers' you get accused of 'rules lawyering' 'cheese' or 'exploitation' by people who just want to sit and roll dice.
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Post by: Da Boss
Expansions ike Cities of Death add a lot to the game.
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Post by: Alpharius
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:02 PM Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way.
This is a good idea which should be expanded. For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos. Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex. Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way? So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard). Not only would this shut up all those whiney Ork players (boohoo, we haven't got a codex in 10 years!), it would also immediately bring Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar more in line with the power level established by the Dark Angel codex. And best of all, it would free up space on the release schedule for a Codex: Death Company!! SWEET!!!
This is comedy gold, baby! Of course, the sad truth of what has and will be happening makes me what to cry too...
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Post by: jmurph
Do the people posting on the flaws/merits of WHFB even play that game? I know Therion does, but the moment he said it was near "perfect" I was scratching my head. Useless heavy infantry is near perfect? Likewise, when Toreador complains about Lords on dragons and herohammer all I can say is, "Huh?". Is this the same hero/dragon that usually cannot win CR alone? And get hit in the face by bolt throwers, cannons, etc.? For 500 points? And of course VC are hero inclined- once the general dies the whole army starts dying! I regard the free raised troops and (near) auto breaking a much bigger strength.
And all this considered WTH does it have to do with Chaos rumors?
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Post by: Asmodai
Posted By Toreador on 04/27/2007 7:34 AM
And until the Chaos codex comes out, I don't think anyone should start stamping around screaming about the daemons. We don't know much of anything at the moment. They could be just that, generic undivided daemons with the specific power daemons coming in another book. At this point we just don't know enough.
I have the opposite view. Once the Codex is out, the rules are cast in stone and we're stuck with them. Now is the perfect time to tell GW "I've heard the rumours about the changes to the Daemons and in particular them having a unified stat-line. As a consumer and a player who enjoys variety, I'm concerned that this could make the game less fun. Please take this viewpoint into consideration when finalizing the Codex." It makes a lot more sense then whining about it after the Codex is out.
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Post by: Therion-
Useless heavy infantry is near perfect? Heavy infantry is far from useless. Heavy infantry being underpowered in a game with absolutely masses of different types of units is normal. Something is always a little underpowered.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Posted By Therion- on 04/28/2007 8:22 AM Useless heavy infantry is near perfect? Heavy infantry is far from useless. Heavy infantry being underpowered in a game with absolutely masses of different types of units is normal. Something is always a little underpowered.
Good post. Fantasy-clipping issues = pretty solid. As a Dwarf player, I've seen arguments that span 3 pages worth debating Heavy Ironbreakers vs Hammers vs regular Dwarfs many times at Bugmans. In my opinion, if people are debating it to that degree, even if one side statistically comes out on top...hell it's close enough balance for me.
I can only assume you are referencing useless heavy infantry to Chaos Warriors, as 90% of the time the people whom complain about heavy infantry are Chaos players...or HE players...but they complain about everything (Intrigue at the Court does suck). Actually, I would consider it unbalanced if all I needed to take were Ironbreakers or Chaos Warriors. Too bad, as I enjoy the fluff of 40k more...hopefully they Warhammer it and make it solid.
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Post by: skyth
Posted By Therion- on 04/28/2007 8:22 AM Useless heavy infantry is near perfect? Heavy infantry is far from useless. Heavy infantry being underpowered in a game with absolutely masses of different types of units is normal. Something is always a little underpowered.
Funny, from reading your postings about 40k units I was lead to believe that you considered anything that was underpowered is useless.
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Post by: Therion-
That's because those are two completely separate games. On many occasions in FB you don't even have to roll your attacks in order to break an enemy unit. Your strategy and maneouvres have already won you the fight. That allows you to take units because of their role in your overall strategy and not simply because of their own points effectiveness. For example, I use sacrificial units that die each game so that I can gain a 20-0 victory.
Heavy infantry can be used as a lure or as an anvil and although many people find that strategy hard to get success with it doesn't mean the unit type is useless at all.
As far as Chaos Warriors go that issue has nothing to do with heavy infantry as a unit type. People don't like Chaos Warriors because Chaos Knights have S5 attacks and better armour saves even when they are charged themselves. That makes them in many cases a better anvil than the Warriors while also functioning as a hammer unit. This requires tweaking in Hordes of Chaos and not Warhammer.
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Post by: Asmodai
Yep. Simply bumping Chaos Knights to Special (ala Empire Inner Circle) would solve 80% of the problem by itself.
Of course, Chaos Dwarf players get even less support than Space Ork players, so that problem exists in both games.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Chaos Dwarfs? Aren't they like...Squats in Fantasy? And the Squats were eaten by the Tyranids!! Everybody knows that.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: ether dude
So we're going to see super bugs in the Empire before we see more 40k Orks?
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Posted By Therion- on 04/28/2007 10:31 AM
As far as Chaos Warriors go that issue has nothing to do with heavy infantry as a unit type. People don't like Chaos Warriors because Chaos Knights have S5 attacks and better armour saves even when they are charged themselves. That makes them in many cases a better anvil than the Warriors while also functioning as a hammer unit. This requires tweaking in Hordes of Chaos and not Warhammer.
I'm on your side Therion . I brought up Chaos Warriors as an illustration of why people assume all heavy infantry is worthless (Mostly because they either compare them to Knights as you pointed out or want to run an entire army with them).
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