Letter by letter, from Dosadi @ Warseer. He seems to be a reliable source, so here it goes...

"Take this with the usual dose of salt guys, but someone I trust told me that the new guard codex may have the following things in it.

Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill or something like that. Basically, units from the same platoon may ignore intervening squads when shooting. So enemy units targeted in this way do not receive the 4+ save. Apparently this only works if the Platoon command squad is alive and within 12” of the rest of the platoon. I’ve been told that this is just one of the abilities guard Platoons may get, but only as long as the chain of command is intact (whatever that means). So loosing your HQ Command Squad may be a really bad thing.

Doctrines are for sure gone (I think we all knew this), but have been replaced by more mutable platoons. Instead of Armoured fist squads you can buy Chimeras for a whole platoon. Or buy the whole platoon grav-chutes to give them deep strike, or drop the heavy weapons from squads and give the platoon Scout. Veteran squads become upgrades to platoons (i.e. they are not elites anymore).

Apparently infantry platoons let you attach certain types of support vehicles to them(kinda like back in second edition). Things like sentinels, hellhounds and demolishers can be attached to platoons. They still take up a FOC spot, but become part of the platoon and so will benefit from the Platoon Drill rule.

The Leman Russ can be bought as a squadron so you can get 3 for a single FOC. They can not be attached to platoons however.

Sniper Squads can now infiltrate, get stealth, range finders and all models in the squad have sniper rifles (and BS 4!).

Like the Land Raider, a new plastic sprue for the Leman Russ has been made that will allow plastic demolishers and a 3rd variant (my money is on the Exterminator).

The Baneblade in NOT in the new codex. It just doesn’t work (i.e. overpowered)in games that are not Apocalypse in size.

However Stormtrooper squads can now take Valkyries as transports. Both will be getting a plastic kit. Valkyries follow the rules for skimmers I’ve been told. Again, they want to keep flyers and super heavies out of “normal games” but give people the ability to use them with all the special rules in Apocalypse and Planet-strike (if the ever get around to that.)

This last one makes me wonder what’s they are doing, but apparently there is a new HQ in the book; Inquisitor and Retinue much like the elites from the current Daemon Hunters/Witch Hunters books.

More info if I get it."

It could be worse.

The platoon structure thing is something I've been trailing for our Guard Codex (yeah, I got rid of Doctrines in our rules as well...).

BYE

Looks plausible enough.
Does that mean one could have 9 Leman Russ? I'm willing to bet it'll be 0-1 squadron, leaving the other HS slots for other stuff.
like the looks of the platoon stuff.
Hope they give the command HQs some bettter defensive options. A command bunker would rock.

I'd be happy enough if I was a gaurd player and this was true.

1. I don't believe it. Too many things seem, well, good and it makes my GW paranoid spidey sense go off.

2. Not sure about the leman rumor. I'm seeing an armored company in the making and MEQ players hate armored company. If true, must be some sort of limiting factor.

3. I could be ok with these mutable platoons if done as presented.

Now we just have to wait to see how much everything costs.

9 Russes would mean Armored Company, MMM tanks

PapaSmurf

The Leman Russ can be bought as a squadron so you can get 3 for a single FOC. They can not be attached to platoons however.

*vomit @ 9 Leman Russes in 1 guard army, with vehicles getting more survivable in general*

Like the Land Raider, a new plastic sprue for the Leman Russ has been made that will allow plastic demolishers and a 3rd variant (my money is on the Exterminator).

Though that is cool, and I like the rumors of other new plastic too (ST, valk). In all, I like that they're focusing on the platoon idea and making chain of command be the thing that makes IG strong. That, and the ability to take an asston of troop infantry, considering that in 5th every single troop guardsmen needs to die to knock out their scoring units :S

The INQ bit is intriguing to be sure.

- Salvage

A new leman russ? Will it look as gay and WWI'ish as the others? Pass.

More effort into models people want.

Tank companies do not work in 4th, and in 5th...oh boy.

Oh well. Sounds like a bunch of hooey anyway.

I actually like all of those rumors. I don't know how I feel about Russ squadrons from a balance issue, but I do know that I love the idea of having a ton of tanks!

it'll be interesting to see if they finally fix stormtroopers, a unit that has been bad for almost 10 years now, despite multiple iterations.

Doesn't sound too bad. Leman Russ squadrons sound pretty good. Of course, now, Immoblized vehicles in a squadron are automatically destroyed, so...

Stelek wrote:A new leman russ? Will it look as gay and WWI'ish as the others? Pass.

More effort into models people want.

Tank companies do not work in 4th, and in 5th...oh boy.

Oh well. Sounds like a bunch of hooey anyway.

Well, respectfully thats your opponent and its not my fault your opinion is full of when it comes to the greatness of the Matilda II er Leman Russ

They will work if its a full on armored company. Armored company has done well in V3 and V4. They can take advantage of the ordnance only firing with joyous enfilade. but then again thats why I don't think it will happen-there has to be a limiter.

MinMax wrote:Doesn't sound too bad. Leman Russ squadrons sound pretty good. Of course, now, Immoblized vehicles in a squadron are automatically destroyed, so...

I've heard that they are considered destroyed if abandoned (i.e. out of coherence range) by the other parts of the squad.

In general, I think that the rumours are good, but then again I don't play Guard so I obviously can't see it's flaws.

Destrado wrote:Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill or something like that. Basically, units from the same platoon may ignore intervening squads when shooting. So enemy units targeted in this way do not receive the 4+ save. Apparently this only works if the Platoon command squad is alive and within 12” of the rest of the platoon. I’ve been told that this is just one of the abilities guard Platoons may get, but only as long as the chain of command is intact (whatever that means). So loosing your HQ Command Squad may be a really bad thing.

Welcome to 5th edition, where the Imperials finest get to ignore all the rules that matter.

Its merely line firing. If they can do it at Rorks Drift why not in the 41st Millennium? Its highly thematic for them.

A young Michael Cain in Mordian uniform:
"First Rank-FIRE!"
"Second Rank-FIRE!"
"First Rank-FIRE!"
"Second Rank-FIRE!"

Jealous?

I agree, it makes sense and I like how it's tied to the platoon leader as he's the one making the call. It means they are more than either a hidden LD bubble or a suicide squad.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:I agree, it makes sense and I like how it's tied to the platoon leader as he's the one making the call. It means they are more than either a hidden LD bubble or a suicide squad.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

This is very true, but given that he needs to be alive for this to work, and area terrain doesn't block LOS, then this means that they will be more than a hidden LD Bubble or a suicide squad; they'll also be target #1.

I also dont think that having IG ignore the intervening squad rule is that bad considering that it may only work if the chain of command is intact. Also, having to keep the command squad within a certain range of the platoon they are confereing the bonus to keeps people from keeping all of thier command squads at the back of the table and making the rule hard to counter.

I'm sad to see that doctrines are gone, it was confusing for opponents, who had to be familiar at least with most of them, but hopefully they come up with a simpler replacement that has a similar effect and doesnt just make vanilla cadians the standard for Guard.

*Edited for stupid mistakes*

Ozymandias wrote:I agree, it makes sense and I like how it's tied to the platoon leader as he's the one making the call. It means they are more than either a hidden LD bubble or a suicide squad.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I agree, and in the hands of the Imperial Guard I hardly think it's broken.

People could argue, however, that Tau have IG-like discipline, Eldar have superior technology, Orks are taller than grots (and even if they weren't, who'd care about a weeny greenskin?).

There should be more to this rule than we know. Maybe it requires the shooters and blocking squad to stay still?

Good point Ozy. Its good to see Guard officers providing additional benefits-indeed its good to see IC's provide something besides an uber power fist for the list. Plus its nice and thematic with officers performing an officer like task-yelling "FIRE!"

Thematically it works for guard. Orks are too unruly, marines are busy waiving pointy sticks, eldar are not going to stand and shoot like that, and I'd posit the same for Tau. Standing in the English Line is not something I'd envision (nor does the fluff show) anyone but the lowly guard doing.

Gamewise its highly limited (as the LD must be intact not bloody likely for long) and we are talking flashlights and maybe some heavy weapons fire.

Destrado wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I agree, it makes sense and I like how it's tied to the platoon leader as he's the one making the call. It means they are more than either a hidden LD bubble or a suicide squad.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I agree, and in the hands of the Imperial Guard I hardly think it's broken.

People could argue, however, that Tau have IG-like discipline, Eldar have superior technology, Orks are taller than grots (and even if they weren't, who'd care about a weeny greenskin?).

There should be more to this rule than we know. Maybe it requires the shooters and blocking squad to stay still?

Actually, the rule relies on the one way IG are dramatically different from other armies in 40k: lots of small squads, rather then larger or more durable squads.

An IG platoon weighs in at 250-300pts for a minimum platoon, which is only a little more than most squads in the game. It makes a certain amount of sense that the platoon could work as well together as, say, 30 ork boys or 20 DE warriors. The other armies have disipline and such, which is why they get smaller squads entirely. The IG have to buy in bulk, so I'm glad that the bulk works together.

Any word on when this is planned to come out?

I would love to field stormtroopers on Valkyries... but I wonder if they would have a special rule to make them scoring? After all, isn't the whole point of a quick insertion force to take objectives?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
This is very true, but given that he needs to be alive for this to work, and area terrain doesn't block LOS, then this means that they will be more than a hidden LD Bubble or a suicide squad; they'll also be target #1.

If the Chimera becomes more reasonable point-wise, you might see more fielded with command squads for fire support and to block LOS to the Command Squad.

I wonder if Voxes will become cheaper and/or more useful.

Removed for double-posting silliness.

I like the changes, if we get even half of em it'll be great.

But adding an inquisitor as a HQ choice? Will you still be required to take a Command HQ Platoon? If not then does that mean you can have an inquisitor based stormtrooper army or something like that?

Or does it mean there will be a WD Demonhunters get you by list that will say we're not allowed to use allies anymore?

For those of you saying the Command HQ will be target #1, Am I wrong in concluding that screening is essentially back? Also, bigger platoons seems very reasonable, so they may be very hard to get to.

These are cool ideas... which also makes me wonder if they will happen. Anyway...

These are cool because they really add to and define the character of the IG. As they are now they are overcost, and under performing in the big picture.

My IG army is on hold until they get a revamp, and 5th comes out. If some or all of these rumors are true, I will gladly take them off the shelf.

The question is: Who is writing it? JJ just finished SM, and is probably doing SW. Phil Kelley is doing DE. Gav is gone. Kinda just leaves Allessio.

My buddy with the armored company will love these rumors. It does sound pretty good. I'd love to see guard become a top tier army. Having to kill every single man ina platoon to take an objective is gonna be tough in 5th with all the cover.

A Command and two infantry platoons comes to about 500 to 600 points minimum w/ heavy weapons. That gives you room for about 6 Leman Russ tanks in 1500 or 9 in 2000. Or less w/ track guards etc.

What I am asking is if that is overpowered or not. I guess it is OK. Especially with only Troop being scoring etc.

Necros wrote:I like the changes, if we get even half of em it'll be great.

But adding an inquisitor as a HQ choice? Will you still be required to take a Command HQ Platoon? If not then does that mean you can have an inquisitor based stormtrooper army or something like that?

Or does it mean there will be a WD Demonhunters get you by list that will say we're not allowed to use allies anymore?

My interpretation was that there will be an HQ that is LIKE an Inquisitor (I.E. gets abilities from his retinue) as opposed to an actual Inquisitor. But I'm probably wrong, and they'll neuter the Inquisition lists as an unneeded interim measure like they did for WHFB Chaos.

Rbb wrote:The question is: Who is writing it? JJ just finished SM, and is probably doing SW. Phil Kelley is doing DE. Gav is gone. Kinda just leaves Allessio.

that would make my day if Allessio was writing the book. he is the only there that i trust at GW to write anything in fantasy. i cant wait for something like autocannons to automatically hit for 2D6 AP2 strength 6 hits...... yeah that sounds about right.

anyway on the rumors i hope i don't have to buy the entire army each special rule if i just want a few squads to be drop troops.

Well, it seems the Guard project will be on hold until the new 'dex comes out. Kinda like that =I= as an HQ choice, some cross-mojoination with the 'Xenos Hunters' Codex? Prolly have to take a regular HQ before you can have an =I= HQ, but then again I'll just not speculate and wait till I have the codex in my grubby, super glued, paint stained little paws.

Stelek wrote:A new leman russ? Will it look as gay and WWI'ish as the others? Pass.

More effort into models people want.

Tank companies do not work in 4th, and in 5th...oh boy.

Oh well. Sounds like a bunch of hooey anyway.

A lot of these rumours arnt exactly new, but the rules part is. All sounds plausible to me. As for the WW1 look where have you been, that was the theme they were going for - just have a look at FW stuff.

Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

spacewolflord wrote:Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

Bah, thats not a proper guard army, you've just got marine envy but had to be a little different :-p

Seriously though, I think a lot of people will end up with an unusable army when the new dex comes out, they will need to tread carefully.

spacewolflord wrote:I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

The Ad-Humans come up with 2/3's of the content of White Dwarf. As for Abhumans? Haven't heard anything.

jfrazell wrote:Its merely line firing. If they can do it at Rorks Drift why not in the 41st Millennium? Its highly thematic for them.

A young Michael Cain in Mordian uniform:
"First Rank-FIRE!"
"Second Rank-FIRE!"
"First Rank-FIRE!"
"Second Rank-FIRE!"

Jealous?

Praetorian uniform, surely?

mm i like the idea of these command structures, except when fighitng eldar, all i am seeing is dark reapers raping each commands squad in turn... fine this is charaterful but will totally bone guard players when they fight eldar. in this respect...

also i get a horrible feeling if they do do that, they will do somthign like tau ehterals which means if the platoon leader dies the guards squads go feth an dwil have to take insta pinning or leadership tests.

I quite like what I'm hearing from this thread for the 'new codex'. Any ideas on what points changes there will be, I'd assume Platoons will go up slightly in light of the new rule.

spacewolflord wrote:Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

didn't it say Vets would be troops? Instead of having a grenadier/vets army you might be able to end up with a vets/stormtrooper army instead

On the whole I like these rumours, though they are going to force me to put my army building on hold until the release. Ah well, I've got plenty of basic guardsmen to paint while I wait - that'll keep me busy.

With the rumoured 5th ed. change that allows transports to carry any of your units, will we see Valkyries zooming around redeploying non-stormtrooper squads?

Cerebaton: You do know this army won't be rereleased fo quite a while yet, probably not to 2010, seeing as so much is on the cards until then. Putting it on hold could end up being permanent during that space of time

These all sound like good ideas. I really like the chain of command rules; they remind me of the good old days, playing Epic Space Marine with my IG.

What are you talking about? You'll still be able to field veterans and stormtroopers. Although Vets are now a troops choice...which is better, because you can take more of them.

Capt K

spacewolflord wrote:Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

Currently you can field grneadiers as troops. That hasn't been noted in the rumor, hence the issue.

Dosadi @ Warseer wrote:Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill

Doctrines are for sure gone

mutable platoons.

Apparently infantry platoons let you attach certain types of support vehicles

The Leman Russ can be bought as a squadron

Sniper Squads can now infiltrate, get stealth, range finders and all models in the squad have sniper rifles (and BS 4!).

new plastic sprue for the Leman Russ

The Baneblade in NOT in the new codex.

Stormtrooper squads can now take Valkyries as transports. Both will be getting a plastic kit. Valkyries follow the rules for skimmers

3 cheers for Jervis, because it looks like Guard are going to be getting what we really want.

Guard can shoot effectively (because they sure aren't going to be fighting much)

NO Doctrines. Good riddance to bad garbage.

Mutable Platoons! I'm hugely looking forward to this - this is how it should have been done all along.

It's really good to see that GW really embraces the Guard Platoon as the core building block moving forward. Very realistic and sensible.

Leman Russ squadrons are nice, but a standard game of 1500 pts in 5th means you can't take 3 squadrons and expect to have sufficient Troops to take any objectives. I think if you can take 2 Russes, a Basilisk and a Demolisher, that'd be pretty cool.

Sounds like GW wants to sell Ratlings, though I can't imagine why when the models are still metal. And ancient. And ugly.

No surprise on a plastic sprue for Exterminator / Demolisher Russ variants. Tho really, if they could just redo the tank completely, that would be ideal.

Pity that the Apocalypse Baneblade won't make the cut. But with GW pulling the 0-1 / minimum 2000 points / 1 per army restrictions, it's hard to incorporate it.

And of course, plastic Stormtroopers and Valkyries are made of AWESOME. Especially Valkyries that work like normal Skimmers. Having loads of Storms, I'm not sure if I need more, but I'll be ordering at least 3 Valks.

Well they have human sniper minis which are made of highly refined COOL.

Again any timeline on when this actually out or are we talking, well, years?

Rbb wrote:The question is: Who is writing it? JJ just finished SM, and is probably doing SW.

I'd assume Jervis is at the helm. The WD article for new Pups has probably been written for monthsly now.

Storm Lord wrote:I'd assume Platoons will go up slightly in light of the new rule.

God, I hope not. Guardsmen are clearly overpriced at 6 pts per model, and the "new rule" simply keeps them at par from 40k3 / 40k4 utility.

Plastic Parody wrote:

spacewolflord wrote:I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

Bah, thats not a proper guard army, :-p

Seriously though, I think a lot of people will end up with an unusable army when the new dex comes out.

Seconded. If you don't have Platoons, you're not really playing Guard.

I think we'll need to see the details for the Platoons before we can say peoples armies become "unusable". Certainly, I'm not concerned about my army. I figure some stuff will move around, but overall, I should do OK.

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:mm i like the idea of these command structures, except when fighitng eldar, all i am seeing is dark reapers raping each commands squad in turn... fine this is charaterful but will totally bone guard players when they fight eldar. in this respect...

Because Space Marines won't bring Whirlwinds and Nids won't bring Biovores to target IG Command?

cerebaton wrote:With the rumoured 5th ed. change that allows transports to carry any of your units, will we see Valkyries zooming around redeploying non-stormtrooper squads?

I can't see them doing anything else...

Wow, I want an IG Airborne Army with 6 Valkyries and 3 Lemans. They could be....

...GASP....

Like the TAU!

ok or not...

Hmmm

Whatcha wanna bet that a new Russ sprue means some new options for the basic Russ beyond turret changes...

....like heavy stubber sponsons/hull mounted?

I've got $20 on it being so when the models come out. Who wants to bet against me?

And if all three of those turret options are on one sprue, that's going to make for some sweet leftover conversion material, or a lot of magnetizing.

Best bit in that is the info on a new Leman Russ sprue.

Will be nice to see a modified version, although keeping the 'classic' overall look.

Oddly I Like everything I see.
I LOVE the mutables
I LOVE vets as troops

I have said gaurd need skimmer like mobility for ages. I am almost certain the valkerie rumor is true. I was thinking this since the winner or adepticon got like 6 valkeries. AWSOME. Now for round two

OGRYN: T5, and Bone 'ead access to officer items, stubborn.

I CANNOT WAIT

Destrado wrote:Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill or something like that. Basically, units from the same platoon may ignore intervening squads when shooting. So enemy units targeted in this way do not receive the 4+ save. Apparently this only works if the Platoon command squad is alive and within 12” of the rest of the platoon. I’ve been told that this is just one of the abilities guard Platoons may get, but only as long as the chain of command is intact (whatever that means). So loosing your HQ Command Squad may be a really bad thing.

If this is true, then I fully expect space marines to get this rule as well. Except they won't need an intact chain of command to use it. Because they're space marines. Hurr.

I like Vets becoming an upgrade to troops, it means I can take more Kasrkin (since they are my favourite, but I only budget for them to take 1 elite slot in the army).

Plastic Stormtroopers and Valkyries would be sweet for my drop troop army Not crazy about losing some of the Doctrines, but I'm sure that the good things from them will be available in other ways.

I'm also interested to see if they reprice chimeras for similarity to rhinos, albeit not the same price, just cheaper than now. Also if it is required if you want to go mechanized to stupidly get a chimera for that 5 man strong command squad in platoons or command platoons (if the former will exist in the coming iteration).

I hope they will keep and improve upon the sanctioned psyker option, as the current one sucks balls!

I hope they keep conscripts as well.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Destrado wrote:Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill or something like that. Basically, units from the same platoon may ignore intervening squads when shooting. So enemy units targeted in this way do not receive the 4+ save. Apparently this only works if the Platoon command squad is alive and within 12” of the rest of the platoon. I’ve been told that this is just one of the abilities guard Platoons may get, but only as long as the chain of command is intact (whatever that means). So loosing your HQ Command Squad may be a really bad thing.

If this is true, then I fully expect space marines to get this rule as well. Except they won't need an intact chain of command to use it. Because they're space marines. Hurr.

I swear, every time I see Aba's avatar at the bottom of my computer screen while I'm scrolling through a thread, I expect to see the words "J.J. humped my wife, stole my dog, and pissed in my truck's gas tank," because every. single. comment. of his is so ANGRY.

Plus, on top of all that, I think that a Space Marine must have stolen his lunch money.

Recently.

Techboss wrote:
Welcome to 5th edition, where the Imperials finest get to ignore all the rules that matter.

space marines- break multiple rules
daemons-now break instant death rules
tyranids-fearless army, synapse=immune to instant death
eldar-take your pick at what rules they break
tau-markerlight magic, bonding, pop-up attacking
sisters-have faithful ways to break rules and dont need psychic hoods to stop psychics
grey knights- difficult to target at ranges over 36", use stormbolters in cc and rob people of invuln saves
Orks- leadership advantages in big mobs, truks' ramshackle rule, Waaagghh

I wish people would quit crying about armies that "break all rules that matter". The only reason that armies are distinctive is that they each break certain rules due to "powers" that they all have. It's what makes an army "unique". Next time you complain about an army "breaking rules" ask yourself what rules YOUR favorite army breaks. Chances are, there's quite a few.

DeathGod wrote:I swear, every time I see Aba's avatar at the bottom of my computer screen while I'm scrolling through a thread, I expect to see the words "J.J. humped my wife, stole my dog, and pissed in my truck's gas tank," because every. single. comment. of his is so ANGRY.

I don't think I've ever seen Doobie get angry. His posts are nothing but well-timed, well-written comedy.

BYE

Actually, I think that's a very positive post from Abby. Which much mean nearly everything is well, this time.

Deadshane: amen. That's one thing I don't like about online forums. Kleenex could make a fortune with all the crying.

And Aba may be angry, but he still has the best name around.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Techboss wrote:
Welcome to 5th edition, where the Imperials finest get to ignore all the rules that matter.

...
I wish people would quit crying about armies that "break all rules that matter". The only reason that armies are distinctive is that they each break certain rules due to "powers" that they all have. It's what makes an army "unique". Next time you complain about an army "breaking rules" ask yourself what rules YOUR favorite army breaks. Chances are, there's quite a few.

Agreed.

Also, Eternal Hatred? Relentless? Aquatic? ... why is it when WFB armies break the basic WFB rules it's OK, but not for 40k?!?

Eldar, as an army, exist because they break the standing game rules. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't work.

Everyone just complains when Marines break the rules as they seem to have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Well, come the end of the year when they get Jervised, and they join the Special Olympic ranks of Codex design like the Dark Angels, I think that feeling might go away.


Anyway, on reflection I do like the sound of this Guard Codex. I've often said that the Doctrines were a fantastic concept executed badly, and whilst I'd rather they try to fix the Doctrine system rather than dumping it completely, this is Jervis Edition 40K, thus 'more options' will always be dumped in favour of a wargear section with pretty pictures, so it was kinda inevitable.

The Guard Codex I've been writing (or attempting to write, as it is by far one of the harder ones I've had to do - Chaos was easier), has mutable Guard platoons and the like, but finding ways to do it has been difficult.

The only thing I will say is that if there are any options that involve removing Guard heavy weapons in favour of things like Infiltration, they'll be ignored.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The only thing I will say is that if there are any options that involve removing Guard heavy weapons in favour of things like Infiltration, they'll be ignored.

I wish there was an option that'd let me ignore the useless cannon fodder lasgunner models in favor of units that actually matter (i.e. plasma guns and heavy weapons), myself.

5th Ed wound allocation will take care of that for you.

BYE

I would love to be able to have enough lasguns, with enough range, to have enough concentration to do the damage that the "mass of lasgun fire" is mythologically able to do. S3 always just seems to lose out to T4, no matter how many shots I get off, mathhammer be damned.

grizgrin wrote:I would love to be able to have enough lasguns, with enough range, to have enough concentration to do the damage that the "mass of lasgun fire" is mythologically able to do. S3 always just seems to lose out to T4, no matter how many shots I get off, mathhammer be damned.

Considering that I had 5 DC die to massed lasgun fire from three squads in one round just today, I wouldn't call it a myth.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Statistics are. Statistics say lasguns are worthless. QED.

Valhallan42nd: 3 squads is, what; 30 lasguns if your opponent took no heavy or special weapons? Unless one of them was a command squad. Unless my mathhammer is really rusty, those 30 LED's should have knocked out about .55 DC. I think that opponent of yours had to roll REALLY well, and you had to save equally bad, for this to happen unless there's something you didn't mention. I feel your pain as a BA player, don't worry! But anecdotes DO work both ways. I had a guy scatter a battle cannon shot onto MY DC, failed to kill anyone in the squad with a S8 AP3 pieplate that was full coverage on all the models, no partials even. I didn't even have to make any saves. He rolled (8) 1's. He deserved it b/c he was a real jerk know-it-all (read:know-naught!), but would I COUNT on that happening every time? Uh, NO. Sorry for the loss of your DC, dude.

Agamemnon2: Ain't it the truth? What could they do to make it more "the way it SHOULD be"?

Agamemnon2 wrote:Anecdotes are not evidence. Statistics are. Statistics say lasguns are worthless. QED.

Yet experience says they are not.

As a guard player, I've done more damage to big things (Daemon Princes, etc) with massed lasgun fire than with my heavy/special weapons, which invariably miss when I need them to hit. I'll trust experience more than mathhammer.

Experience is great, but only for things which aren't directly calculable. Believing that your lasguns are better for killing MCs than your heavies and specials are is superstition, nothing more. It's like believing that heads come up more often than tails because of your experience flipping coins and getting ten heads in a row.

Experience is good,

Statistics are better,

Faith in the Emperor is BEST. *Beats fist on chest*

"I may fire my lasgun, but it is my faith in HIM that shall destroy my enemies!"

The usefulness of breaking rules depends on why it's done and factors such as how much it costs, how easy it is to do, how useful it is and whether the enemy can defend against it.

Take Nids' Synapse immunity to Instant Death. Cost is nothing, ease of use is high, usefulness is high, and it's hard for the enemy to oppose. OTOH, it was done because Nids having no tanks, their various heavy creatures are highly vulnerable to ID. So fair enough and no-one complains about it.

Doesn't matter what the math says IMO because dice are totally random. You shouldn't need algebra or calculus to play with army men.

I've had scores of marines get wiped off the board from tons of lasguns, tons of hormgaunts, tons of shuriken catapults... the more dice you have to roll, the more wounds you can cause, the more wounds you cause the more saves he has to make and the more chances he has to fail a few. That's all the math ya need :p

Sorry but no.

Necros wrote:Doesn't matter what the math says IMO because dice are totally random. You shouldn't need algebra or calculus to play with army men.

I've had scores of marines get wiped off the board from tons of lasguns, tons of hormgaunts, tons of shuriken catapults... the more dice you have to roll, the more wounds you can cause, the more wounds you cause the more saves he has to make and the more chances he has to fail a few. That's all the math ya need :p

Ignorance of odds works for some things, but in serious discussions of how dice interact, knowing is half the battle. Basically you don't need it, but it sure helps. On the other hand, ignorance never helps.


edit: Your post has been edited to remove the completely unwarranted insult. See you your point still stands without the insult? Please refrain from insulting other posters in the future or your posting privileges will be temporarily suspended. --yakface

Kilkrazy wrote:The usefulness of breaking rules depends on why it's done and factors such as how much it costs, how easy it is to do, how useful it is and whether the enemy can defend against it.

Take Nids' Synapse immunity to Instant Death. Cost is nothing, ease of use is high, usefulness is high, and it's hard for the enemy to oppose. OTOH, it was done because Nids having no tanks, their various heavy creatures are highly vulnerable to ID. So fair enough and no-one complains about it.

Really?

Then pre and post FAQ complaining about how x or y can or cannot kill the bugs is just a false memory?

I do indeed like the Codex. Now theres a lot more of interesting things to do.

ST in Valks. and a gun line covering them to the objective. nice

So math says you can't kill tons of marines with lasguns, even though it happens all the time? 10 lasguns might not do much, but 30? or 50?

You'll have to define "tons of marines" and "all the time."

You do agree that on balance, one plasma gun or lascannon is more likely to take a wound off a fex than a lasgun is, right? And that a 2+ save is more likely to work than a 5+? If your answer is yes, you've just demonstrated that you do, in fact, believe that statistics matter. You're just not applying the principle consistently.

tons of marines = a squad or 2
all the time = just about any time I try

all I was saying is if you have more dice, you have a better chance of doing what you need to do. So, 30 lasgun shots on a squad of marines will do a lot better than 10. There will be times when you roll bad, and times when you roll really good. If a carnifex is right in front of my lines and the only shot I can really take, I will dump my lasguns on it because I might get lucky. and shooting something is better than shooting nothing. I wouldn't expect to do much, but ya never know... of course a higher str weapon will do better.

back on topic..

when is the new IG codex rumored to come out? is it just "2009" or "after Xmas" or "next fall"? I'm probably going to be shelving my army for a bit so I can get some games in with my chaos army till the new codex comes out

I like some of the new changes , with mathhammer OOO this was IG rumors not the mathhammer thread my bad

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Experience is great, but only for things which aren't directly calculable. Believing that your lasguns are better for killing MCs than your heavies and specials are is superstition, nothing more. It's like believing that heads come up more often than tails because of your experience flipping coins and getting ten heads in a row.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Statistics are the only reliable yardstick with which to measure specified scenarios such as "10 guardsmen fire at 10 marines at 14 inches" (just to state an example). They don't lie, unless your dice do (this is possible, as gaming dice are not of a particularly high quality and tests, while not conclusive, have shown trends towards skewed distributions).

Now, statistics can't answer some questions, such as "What's the best special weapon in an IG infantry squad", because those have much too many variables, such as opponents, terrain, and even psychology (maybe your opponent has a deep-seated dread of plasmaguns and will eradicate squads with such faster than squads with meltaguns, to use a silly example).

I've seen the Avatar killed in HTH by Firewarriors. Therefore, Firewarriors are excellent Monstrous Creature killers in HTH. See how that thinking doesn't make any logical sense, even if it happens 'all the time'.

No - just remember this:

Anecdotal evidence isn't.

... and you'll never go wrong!



Anyway...


Given the (supposed) release schedual, I think we'll see Marines (HURR!), Space Wolves (HURR w/teeth), Dark Eldar and Necrons (I hope!) first. So we're looking at 2010 here. We should all have jetpacks and flying cars by then.

BYE

I thought the release schedule was SMs, SWs, DE and then IG. Where's this Necron stuff coming from?

With all that dismissing of statistics, it is almost as if one of the Design Team has managed to sneak in here.

(Maybe it is Jervis himself, in disguise!)

Alpharius wrote:With all that dismissing of statistics, it is almost as if one of the Design Team has managed to sneak in here.

(Maybe it is Jervis himself, in disguise!)

He doesn't use words. He uses pretty pictures now, so we all know what's what. Remember?

BYE

MinMax wrote:I thought the release schedule was SMs, SWs, DE and then IG. Where's this Necron stuff coming from?

Just a process of logical deduction (not that anyone at GW would comprehend such a thing, but stick with me).

What Codices haven't been redone for 5th, or ever. In the category of 'Ever', we have DE, Necrons and Wolves. In the category of 5th we have Guard and Marines.

We know Marines are coming. We know Wolves are coming. DE are probably after them. For the next one, I'd say Necrons because they have the most room to expand and after the Wolves are done are the oldest Codex besides the soon to be done DE. For Guard there are limited options. A new plastic sprue for the Russ, maybe plastic Hellhound-y things. New Rough Riders?

'Crons they have a world of possibilities to open up, much like DE, as they are fairly 1 dimensional and present far more creative depth (something the design team actually does well at).

BYE

efarrer wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The usefulness of breaking rules depends on why it's done and factors such as how much it costs, how easy it is to do, how useful it is and whether the enemy can defend against it.

Take Nids' Synapse immunity to Instant Death. Cost is nothing, ease of use is high, usefulness is high, and it's hard for the enemy to oppose. OTOH, it was done because Nids having no tanks, their various heavy creatures are highly vulnerable to ID. So fair enough and no-one complains about it.

Really?

Then pre and post FAQ complaining about how x or y can or cannot kill the bugs is just a false memory?

Could be

I never saw any. I saw plenty of moaning about Eldar holo-field skimmers after their new codex.

Maybe I read the wrong web sites?

Necros wrote:

spacewolflord wrote:Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

didn't it say Vets would be troops? Instead of having a grenadier/vets army you might be able to end up with a vets/stormtrooper army instead

The way I read the statement is that ONE squad out of the Platoon of Six, will become a Vet not every squad in the Platoon. Thats how I read it.

As for some one that said I don't have a "real" guard army, I like my shooting to be effective and have troops live through bolter fire. And it also throws people way off since they expect a horde or armor army, not Elite.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Experience is great, but only for things which aren't directly calculable. Believing that your lasguns are better for killing MCs than your heavies and specials are is superstition, nothing more. It's like believing that heads come up more often than tails because of your experience flipping coins and getting ten heads in a row.

That may come from early fifth eddition, where even though they still had t6 most monstrous creatures only had a 5+ inv save. Meaning about 2 wounds in 30 shots with laspointers.

spacewolflord wrote:

Necros wrote:

spacewolflord wrote:Well I am NOT liking what I see with Guard. I love my Grenadier/Veteran Army and now it seems its going away. I refuse to get Platoons of troops, hopefully the Inquisitor makes Storm Troopers Troops at least.

I wonder what they are going to do with Ad-humans.

didn't it say Vets would be troops? Instead of having a grenadier/vets army you might be able to end up with a vets/stormtrooper army instead

The way I read the statement is that ONE squad out of the Platoon of Six, will become a Vet not every squad in the Platoon. Thats how I read it.

As for some one that said I don't have a "real" guard army, I like my shooting to be effective and have troops live through bolter fire. And it also throws people way off since they expect a horde or armor army, not Elite.

Amen i love the look on there faces when a get a save.

As far as the Imp Guard rumors, I think they sound excellent. Mutable platoons is the best way to offer varied guard armies outside of doctrines, and will likely allow the list to be more balanced point wise than doctrines did. The idea of potentially affordable valkyries is definately exciting. I'm curious though, assuming these rumors are legitimate, surely that would mean that the IG are in line for their re-do before 2010. Otherwise would they even be working on them yet? Some other rumors have planetfall being released next summer, and plastic valkyries could be something to be released alongside that, which could make the IG a release around that time too. Certainly if we are hearing about IG now, and hearing nothing about Necrons, it would logically hold true that the IG are more likely to be released first.

I'm not sure, however, why some people always feel the need to post in rumor threads with "these rules seem good, so they aren't true because GW sucks too much," or "These rules are completely awful so obviously they'll be true, because GW sucks so much." I guess I just don't understand the point of such posts. Whether I agree with your opinion about GW's capabilities or not, the post just doesn't add anything of value to the thread or the community. Wouldn't that just make such posts mostly off topic spam?

In regards to the mathhammer stuff, obviously statistics are important for game development, and highly useful when figuring out what your units are likely to accomplish. However, the one actual statistic that I think most mathhammer advocates fail to account for, and is what bothers most non-mathhammer advocates I believe, is the concept of unit potential. Your ten bolter marines are obviously better than my 30 lasgunners. Statistics back that up. But, because I am rolling 30 dice to your 10, I have the potential to do a lot more damage than you do. You can never cause more than 10 wounds with your bolters (assuming no rapidfire), I can cause 30. Will that ever happen to me? Not likely, but statistically it is a possibility, and even if I were to cause half that, it would still outstrip your marines at maximum capacity. Also, by the nature of the game, one statistically above average round of shooting can have a tremendous impact on the game overall, so I don't think it is negligible to consider potential when choosing units/designing codeci. When building my lists, I definately use mathhammer, but will certainly err on the side higher potential whenever it makes a degree of season to do so.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Techboss wrote:
Welcome to 5th edition, where the Imperials finest get to ignore all the rules that matter.

1. space marines- break multiple rules
2. daemons-now break instant death rules
3. tyranids-fearless army, synapse=immune to instant death
4. eldar-take your pick at what rules they break
5. tau-markerlight magic, bonding, pop-up attacking
6. sisters-have faithful ways to break rules and dont need psychic hoods to stop psychics
7. grey knights- difficult to target at ranges over 36", use stormbolters in cc and rob people of invuln saves
8. Orks- leadership advantages in big mobs, truks' ramshackle rule, Waaagghh

I wish people would quit crying about armies that "break all rules that matter". The only reason that armies are distinctive is that they each break certain rules due to "powers" that they all have. It's what makes an army "unique". Next time you complain about an army "breaking rules" ask yourself what rules YOUR favorite army breaks. Chances are, there's quite a few.

The main difference is on what scale the rule breaking is done and how it effects the army.

1. effects the whole army, makes the army extremely forgiving and thus new gamer friendly
2. demons are fairly squishy anyway, I don't see the instant death being all the much of an issue
3. synapse effects only a few units and once they're removed, it's not that bad
4. while eldar break a lot of rules, it's usually unit specific, so you don't break all the rules with all the units at the same time
5. agan, 1 unit breaks 1 rule, bonding is a worse form of ATSKNF
6. faith points are limited and thus you can't always break the rules and you will fail sometimes in breaking the rule you want
7. grey knights cost a ton of points and are heavily limited
8. orks also can't shoot for crap, so they have to have something to get to close combat

Guard is a ranged army that is supposed to be the closest thing to "normal" humans. Their supposed low leadership is offset by officer leadership. The screening rule will be army wide probably and thus takes what was guards disadvantage, crap armor save, and renders in moot.

I don't mind breaking the rules as long as it makes some sense and isn't constantly saving the enemies ass. SM and guard are prime examples of where their special rules allow them to be more resilient than they should be. I guess we'll wait and see.

Celestial Lion wrote:As far as the Imp Guard rumors, I think they sound excellent. Mutable platoons is the best way to offer varied guard armies outside of doctrines, and will likely allow the list to be more balanced point wise than doctrines did.

The idea of potentially affordable valkyries is definately exciting.

I'm curious though, assuming these rumors are legitimate, surely that would mean that the IG are in line for their re-do before 2010.

Some other rumors have planetfall being released next summer, and plastic valkyries could be something to be released alongside that, which could make the IG a release around that time too.

Certainly if we are hearing about IG now, and hearing nothing about Necrons, it would logically hold true that the IG are more likely to be released first.

Totally agreed about the new Platoon structure being better and Fluffier than Doctirines.

I'm so totally geeked over plastic Valkyries coming out.

Based on the IG rumors coming out now, I think IG are in line for a redo early next year. Possibly as early as December this year. At least, if the previous rumor release to Codex release timelines are any harbinger of what is to come ahead. Certainly 2010 is much too far down the line if IG concepts are already developed to this extent.

Plantefall releases the plastic Storms and Valks, and should be next summer. I'm going to guess Guard will be Spring 2009, preceeding Planetfall by 2 months, in much the same way that Space Marines will lag 5th Edition by about 2 months.

Exactly so. Guard are next up on deck. Necrons and Dark Eldar are on the back burner for at least another year (i.e. *after* Planetfall). If you recall the rumors and look at 40k as 4 releases per year, the schedule probably looks very much like this:

2008
- Summer = 5th Edition
- Fall = Space Marines
- Winter = Space Wolves

2009
- Spring = Imperial Guard
- Summer = Planetfall
- Fall = Necrons
- Winter = Eldar

Eldar always get a full Codex each edition. Necrons are rules problematic in 5th Edition, and have great development potential, so they probably have priority over the other non-Imperials. Dark Eldar & Inquisition are the red-headed stepchildren who'll wait until 2010 at the earliest. It would be especially amusing if GW made 2010 a year of Chaos and did the WE / EC / DG / TS Codices, bumping DE & Inq to 2011 or later.

Techboss wrote:Guard is a ranged army that is supposed to be the closest thing to "normal" humans. Their supposed low leadership is offset by officer leadership. The screening rule will be army wide probably and thus takes what was guards disadvantage, crap armor save, and renders in moot.

If you look at the Guard equivalent in Fantasy, Empire, they're supposed to represent normal humans. They have a similarly low statline with poor Ld. However, they also have Detachments that break the unit system, along with all sorts of techy toys. And Tanks. Multiple Tanks.

So getting back to 40k, these rumors make good sense. Officers and a Chain of Command to offset poor Ld, and Platoons to avoid the worst of being small, fragile units.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm so totally geeked over plastic Valkyries coming out.

Seconded. Nothing like dumping off troops on the objective and having Valks buzz around the battlefield lighting things up. Nice.

Plus they're plastic, and not Force World resin, meaning they'll:

A). Be affordable (as far as GW compared to FW is concerned).
B). Will actually fit together (don't have to worry about FW's 50% miscast rate).
C). If something goes wrong you won't have to deal with FW customer service (or lackthereof).
D). If you order a FW Valk now, you may be lucky and see it arrive (warped and unbuildable) by the time the plastic one is released!!!

I really want plastic Valks. They'll add a new spin to my Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Army.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Eldar always get a full Codex each edition.

Eldar already have their 5th ed. Codex, the same goes with Orks as well.

Is the SW codex confirmed? They might be shifting the order.

O I hope tot he God Emperor that the Space Wolves don't get pushed back, we are still using a 3rd Ed. Codex. Even if it still works they need some love.

Given the (supposed) release schedual, I think we'll see Marines (HURR!), Space Wolves (HURR w/teeth), Dark Eldar and Necrons (I hope!) first. So we're looking at 2010 here. We should all have jetpacks and flying cars by then.

Shouldn't that be "Marines (HURR!), Space Wolves (FURR!)"?

At any rate, are there any rumors about Imperials being unable to ally going forward? Looking at the IG Inq option, it makes me think that will be the case, but then that leaves me wondering what they plan to do for the Inq codex, should it ever materialize.
Still, rocking many big tanks would be really fun, and I generally like what I am seeing here. Particularly if Chimera's get a price break so mechanized infantry works a little better.

I wonder if Track Guards will work the same in the new codex? If so I think you'll see them as near mandatory for LR squadrons.

spacewolflord wrote:O I hope tot he God Emperor that the Space Wolves don't get pushed back, we are still using a 3rd Ed. Codex. Even if it still works they need some love.

(looks at Chaos Codex). Be careful, you may get what you wish for.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

grizgrin wrote:I would love to be able to have enough lasguns, with enough range, to have enough concentration to do the damage that the "mass of lasgun fire" is mythologically able to do. S3 always just seems to lose out to T4, no matter how many shots I get off, mathhammer be damned.

Considering that I had 5 DC die to massed lasgun fire from three squads in one round just today, I wouldn't call it a myth.

This weekend I failed 2 termie armor saves to 3 lasgun wounds. It was a very bad moment.

At my local store a tau fire warrior squad killed a bloodthirster in CC... Twas a sad day for Khorne.

I chased an errant schnouzer down the street yesterday trying to make good on its bid for freedom.

Hey, its about as relevant...

JohnHwangDD :

2009=>

Necron = potential,rules
Eldar = every Ed dex

Bring the IG in,for 2009,possible move but after them necrons?
Summer action at planetfall will draw most attention,a short stop
with DE more likely fits between the much-loved codices.
Necrons after a main event is to throw away chances.
Eldar will have to wait until some "evil" dex are out.

"Hey, its about as relevant..."

Lol good point, sorry about that.

spacewolflord wrote:O I hope tot he God Emperor that the Space Wolves don't get pushed back, we are still using a 3rd Ed. Codex. Even if it still works they need some love.

Pffft. Space Wolves have nothing to complain about*. Look at Dark Eldar!






*That is, no more than Imperial Guard, Necrons, Daemonhuntes and Witch Hunters.

new elder dex in 2009? you mad? they only got a new one last year iirc. anmd how long did it take for a new one for them between 3rd and 4th ed?

bleugh i think a reworking of the inquisiton books are more likely than a new eldar codex in 2009..


onto guard... platoonb rules do soudn interesting but as many have said i will feel a bit miffed if guard lsoe carrapace troops... surviing bolter fire is kinda esential nowa days.. otherwise i may have to do 1 platoon and armoured fist then spam storm troopers or inquistorial storm troopers.... ah well

I think he meant Dark Eldar.

And what do you need Carpace Armour for when a cover save is better overall?

BYE

"And what do you need Carpace Armour for when a cover save is better overall?"

Indeed, I agree totally. I dont think dropping carapace armour will break guard or make them less effective.

in 5th surely a thin line of lasgun only gaurd in front of all your heavy equiped squads would make sense to give greater survivability to them, as no one in their right mind would shoot the crapfantry.

dr vompire wrote:in 5th surely a thin line of lasgun only gaurd in front of all your heavy equiped squads would make sense to give greater survivability to them, as no one in their right mind would shoot the crapfantry.

You mean Conscripts? Yes. Also, they stop the first wave of assaulters cold.

Oh Geez the old "lasguns are good" arguement. Lasguns are total garbage, I have fired, 40 of those things before and nothing happens, other than I waste time rolling dice look here is a ROUGH estimate

A full platoon rapid firing

100 shots
50 hits
16.6 wounds
5.55 failed saves

Player removes standard marines first before one with gear so thats 5.55 x 15 = 83 points die

investment = 300 points

WOW

I dont even need to show anything else do I. Experience is never reliable for things like this. I have also rolled 5 ones with my squad of 5 termies before as well as all sorts of wierd things. Doesn't mean they will consistently happen. Usually people that swear by lasguns are playing really inexperienced people, those things are complete trash. Both mathematically and in my experience. There have been very rare ocasions where they do somthing amazing but these are merely flukes.

No, you dont remove standard marines before geared ones in 5th ed. You allocate wounds then roll for saves. You seem to forget all the other weapons you will have in that full platoon will also cause wounds that have to be spread out on all the models. They also get alot better against other targets then MEQs. Still not the best thing in the world but you have tons of them just sitting around and they will not be useless and do nothing.

With the end of starting new assaults with consolidation moves and the killyness of current assaults I could easily see lots of high power assault units charging in and wiping out the first squad they touch and then being easily in rapid fire range of, well, the rest of the army!

So maybe we will see a lot more massed LG fire?

dr vompire wrote:in 5th surely a thin line of lasgun only gaurd in front of all your heavy equiped squads would make sense to give greater survivability to them, as no one in their right mind would shoot the crapfantry.

So we're back to 3rd. Yay.

Put all the proposed rules together and it’s pretty easy to see what GW is trying to do here. Heavy weapons teams have been rarely taken in 4th ed because they compete with other heavy choices and because you couldn’t shield them with other troops.

Allowing the Leman Russ squad as a 1-3 option (with likely 0-1 limiter) means there’ll be heavy slots available for other things, like heavy weapons teams. So there goes one problem.

Allowing you to attach support units, like heavy weapons teams, to platoons means your heavy weapons can benefit from platoon rules, like the platoon drill rule.

The platoon drill rule allows you to place heavy weapons teams behind your platoons, gain the cover save from intervening troops, while still firing at full effect.

Hey presto, heavy weapons teams that work!

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Anecdotes are not evidence. Statistics are. Statistics say lasguns are worthless. QED.

Yet experience says they are not.

As a guard player, I've done more damage to big things (Daemon Princes, etc) with massed lasgun fire than with my heavy/special weapons, which invariably miss when I need them to hit. I'll trust experience more than mathhammer.

I couldn't agree more. I recall a game verse a Nidzilla army where my Battlecannon and Eartshaker managed to kill a handful of models yet massed lasgun fire ripped apart a HT in one turn. Go figure.

A nice assessment, sebster, only isn't it the case that the same guys who give your HW teams the save will give targets a save, too? Or has the actual rulebook proven that false? Even if so, I guess you could still work it by moving the living screen out of the way and then Running back into position after the HW teams have fired.

Dendarien:

Go figure.

Nothing much to figure. Sometimes the unlikely happens: lasguns kill Marines in droves, Gretchin shoot a squad of Termies to death, ten tossed coins all turn up heads. The rational person doesn't let this fool them into concluding that such results are likely or common.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:A nice assessment, sebster, only isn't it the case that the same guys who give your HW teams the save will give targets a save, too? Or has the actual rulebook proven that false? Even if so, I guess you could still work it by moving the living screen out of the way and then Running back into position after the HW teams have fired.

Dendarien:

Go figure.

Nothing much to figure. Sometimes the unlikely happens: lasguns kill Marines in droves, Gretchin shoot a squad of Termies to death, ten tossed coins all turn up heads. The rational person doesn't let this fool them into concluding that such results are likely or common.

I just meant it as a figure of speech not a rule to live by I personally have never been one to rely on luck or randomness to pull through in my favor.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:
Nothing much to figure. Sometimes the unlikely happens: lasguns kill Marines in droves, Gretchin shoot a squad of Termies to death, ten tossed coins all turn up heads. The rational person doesn't let this fool them into concluding that such results are likely or common.

Of course, a rational person doesn't spend hundreds of dollars on toy soldiers, hours of their life painting them and even more discussing them on web forums ;-)

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:new elder dex in 2009? you mad? they only got a new one last year iirc. anmd how long did it take for a new one for them between 3rd and 4th ed?

bleugh i think a reworking of the inquisiton books are more likely than a new eldar codex in 2009.

Yeah, I think so. The current Eldar 'dex is more of a pre-5th edition prototype than a finished book. If you recall how Chaos got two books for 3rd, it's not far-fetched at all.

Inquisition probably doesn't sell well enough to warrant a new, combined Codex in the near future. Perhaps after the plastic Storms start moving in quantity, they'll see more. But Inquisition is a conceptual mess, so it's not so likely because it'll be difficult work.

sebster wrote:Allowing the Leman Russ squad as a 1-3 option (with likely 0-1 limiter) means there’ll be heavy slots available for other things, like heavy weapons teams.

Allowing you to attach support units, like heavy weapons teams, to platoons means your heavy weapons can benefit from platoon rules, like the platoon drill rule.

I think the extra slots will go to Basilisks & Demolishers. I don't think Heavy Weapons Platoons will remain an option.

I think, like Veterans, Heavy (and Special) Weapons teams will be integrated into ordinary Troops Platoons, rather than attaching to HQ or being HS.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:A nice assessment, sebster, only isn't it the case that the same guys who give your HW teams the save will give targets a save, too? Or has the actual rulebook proven that false? Even if so, I guess you could still work it by moving the living screen out of the way and then Running back into position after the HW teams have fired.

That's the point of the platoon drill rule. You get to ignore your own intervening troops when firing. This means heavy weapons units can hide at the back and benefit from the cover save but still fire at full effect.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think the extra slots will go to Basilisks & Demolishers. I don't think Heavy Weapons Platoons will remain an option.

I think, like Veterans, Heavy (and Special) Weapons teams will be integrated into ordinary Troops Platoons, rather than attaching to HQ or being HS.

I doubt it, or what's the point of allowing you to attach units - to attach a sentinel? I'm not convinced this will make them worth taking, as it only gives a 4+ that can easily be overwhelmed with mass fire, but I'm confident that's the intent of the rule.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:A nice assessment, sebster, only isn't it the case that the same guys who give your HW teams the save will give targets a save, too? Or has the actual rulebook proven that false? Even if so, I guess you could still work it by moving the living screen out of the way and then Running back into position after the HW teams have fired.

Dendarien:

Go figure.

Nothing much to figure. Sometimes the unlikely happens: lasguns kill Marines in droves, Gretchin shoot a squad of Termies to death, ten tossed coins all turn up heads. The rational person doesn't let this fool them into concluding that such results are likely or common.

True TC, we all have our little anecdotes....but

I had to bawl out my opponent the other day (he is a friend, so it wasn't that serious) because he didn't wanted to bother shooting his Lasguns "coz they don't do anything". Neither of the extremes are any good.
BTW, he killed 2 marines in a bikersquad and made it run off the table. Anecdotal evidence? Oh yeah. Does it go to show that you shouldn't ignore the lasguns completely? Oh yeah.

Augustus wrote:With the end of starting new assaults with consolidation moves and the killyness of current assaults I could easily see lots of high power assault units charging in and wiping out the first squad they touch and then being easily in rapid fire range of, well, the rest of the army!

So maybe we will see a lot more massed LG fire?

This happened to me last night. My beautiful bloodletters were massacred. Oh the (in)Humanity!

This ocould be a real stumbler for heavy assault units trying to stay stuck in. A comrade who is of the ork variety believes that this could stumble orks as well.

I wonder if the Imperial Guard will be affected by the reduced availability of lascannons that the last few space marines realeses have suffered.
Will they get a points increase?

Also I hope advisers and the elite units are made more useful. Although I'm not counting on that.

"Also I hope advisers and the elite units are made more useful. Although I'm not counting on that. "

God I hope so too. i have like 4 commisar model that are collecting dust. Thats too bad because I love the models and whats the Imperial Guard without Commisars?

Makov wrote:"Also I hope advisers and the elite units are made more useful. Although I'm not counting on that. "

God I hope so too. i have like 4 commisar model that are collecting dust. Thats too bad because I love the models and whats the Imperial Guard without Commisars?

*shudders*

Advisors have kept me from fielding commissars for years. I can't imagine them keeping those rules.

~TS

neofright wrote:Of course, a rational person doesn't spend hundreds of dollars on toy soldiers, hours of their life painting them and even more discussing them on web forums ;-)

QFT!

With the rumore I had heard, which are now being confirmed to some degree, I gave the Guard a shaky thumbs up in v5. With some of the new rules that have changed since the pdf, that thumb is turning a bit towards down. Throw in the platoon rule, and I think they have the flavor and strength that they will lose to some degree. I heard a rumor that the guardsman will go down to 4 points(??) per model. I think that also has to happen for them the be effective.

Wishlist: Give us back the two tanks taken away in the last codex. Make ogryns worth it.

TommyStriker wrote:Advisors have kept me from fielding commissars for years. I can't imagine them keeping those rules.

Not to mention the price. 40 points for a T3 W2 Sv5+ guy? That's over twice a Marine, and the Marines'll beat him.

I bought every new Commissar model the day they came out, and went out of my way to get the female Commissar, even if it isn't a great model, because I love the imagery and fluff behind Commissars (hence my avatar, and my Commissar Calgar alter ego). The problem is, ever since 3rd Ed... they've sucked.

I took Commissars in every army I played in 2nd Ed - even had a few characters that showed up in multiple battles, like Commissar Chandler with his Jump Pack and Commissar Renald Duke who seemed to survive everything. Ever since then, they've been dead weight. GW overvalues multiwound models - hence the current problems with Ogryn and the like - but they need to reduce the points on Commissars (and Priests). They're just not worth what you pay for them.

At the same time they can make the Sanctioned Psyker a useful model. Primaris Psykers from 2nd Ed gave the Guard a real boost - and Primaris Lord Amoris, my 'Sanctioned Psyker' has long since languished without any good rules. I mean, Telepathic Order is a good power. Everything else is pure gak. The only good power besides Telepathic Order is 'No Power', as the others are so bad that I'd rather not have a power than have *sigh* Lightning Arc - the Heavy D6 Lasgun power that could once rip through a squad of Marines with ease.

BYE

SO I guess they are selling a 5 man snap together box of cadians. Its on the advance orders page.

smart_alex wrote:SO I guess they are selling a 5 man snap together box of cadians. Its on the advance orders page.

For the lazy: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat180002&prodId=prod1400022&rootCatGameStyle=

In the US the 5 pack models are actually cheaper at $1,60 each than the 20 man box at $1,75 each.
But in the UK the 20 pack is cheaper at £0,90 each compared to £1 for the five pack.

Cool been waiting for those. Gonna get a couple boxes to mix in with the rest for some different poses and stuff

But then, looking at the pic they don't really look all that different as far as the poses go.. oh well... still need more guys anyway

I am thinking IG will do pretty well against Daemon legion armies as well, in part because of the lasgun. Having a turn to rapid fire into the beasties as they deep strike doesn't hurt one bit.

Not exactly a glittering recommendation for the humble lasgun, but I suspect people will find it lovely in such circumstances.

"I am thinking IG will do pretty well against Daemon legion armies as well, in part because of the lasgun. Having a turn to rapid fire into the beasties as they deep strike doesn't hurt one bit. "

I agree with you there. Also, having only half your army on the table will give the IG player less targets to worry about. So basically the options for the Demon player would be deep strike behind cover or far away and get shot at as you advance or Deepstrike close and die right away. Either way, pretty good for guard!

Im not really sure. I have not really played against the new daemons. Have taken about a 1 month break from gaming. Been kinda hectic. However, I think that the T3 of many of the daemons will be key to winning against them with guard. The Higher toughness armies will be tougher...duh.

Having played against mech guard-hellhounds and ordnance are nasty nasty against demons. In addition demons are not the strongest list against vehicle heavy forces.

I hope the rumored variant Russ is the Exterminator so my Space Wolves can keep it. I like what I am seeing for the Guard, and have stopped working on everything but basic guardsmen until the new codex rumors solidify.

MinMax wrote:

spacewolflord wrote:O I hope tot he God Emperor that the Space Wolves don't get pushed back, we are still using a 3rd Ed. Codex. Even if it still works they need some love.

Pffft. Space Wolves have nothing to complain about*. Look at Dark Eldar!

*That is, no more than Imperial Guard, Necrons, Daemonhuntes and Witch Hunters.

Using the copyright years from the various books we get:

1998 Dark Eldar 1st Edition for 40K 3rd Edition
2000 Space Wolves mini-codex (needs Codex Space Marines)
2001 Dark Eldar 2nd Edition for 40K 3rd Edition
2002 Necrons
2003 Imperial Guard
2003 Daemonhunters
2003 Witch Hunters
2004 Space Marines 4th Edition

As we can see the oldest current codex from your list is Space Wolves. Three of the codices listed are 3 years after Space Wolves. They, along with Dark Eldar are the most in need of updating. I have a Dark Eldar Army in progress as well as a Necron army, and a partial Guard army so I am not dismissive of any of them, but the Dark Eldar need far more work than the rest of your list model wise. The Space Wolves only need characters and a new upgrade sprue for themselves. Otherwise they use the many recent Space Marine models for the bulk of their forces. GW can also use them as an excuse to release more marine sets soon after the new marine codex fattening their bottom line.

I want to see updates to all these books and new models for them all, but there is only so much they can do at once. Given their policy of new book and models all at once rather than release the books as they are finished, and models to follow as they are completed, this means substantial investments of time and money for each release "event".

In summary, I feel your pain, but the Wolves need a new codex just as badly as Dark Eldar and are far easier to do from a model production standpoint. The Dark Eldar need a lot of model love.

Are those original printing dates, or reprinting dates?
Not that it matters I guess; there are MANY 3rd edition codexes running around that need love.

Oh geez, just paint your space marines grey. Voila space wolves. They are just more marines, that is so annoying they keep coming out with marine variants. They are all marines with different rules. Perhaps they should come out with a bad moons codex, then a snakebites codex, then a new speed freaks codex, then a geoffs codex, how would the marine players feel. No they are ALL just orks with different paint jobs and a slightly different build. DE should be next then guard. I do not really think they need to re-do necrons just yet.

victorpofa wrote:1998 Dark Eldar 1st Edition for 40K 3rd Edition
2000 Space Wolves mini-codex (needs Codex Space Marines)
2001 Dark Eldar 2nd Edition for 40K 3rd Edition
2002 Necrons
2003 Imperial Guard
2003 Daemonhunters
2003 Witch Hunters
2004 Space Marines 4th Edition

In summary, I feel your pain, but the Wolves need a new codex just as badly as Dark Eldar and are far easier to do from a model production standpoint. The Dark Eldar need a lot of model love.

The Wolves are in greatest need of a new Codex because the only remaining current army that requires a second Codex to field any playable army.

That leaves just Necrons and Guard as armies to be high priority for new rulebooks. Necrons need USRs to make life easy for everyone, but Guard has been selling more lately. Guess which army gets the love?

Right!

Guard will be next, after Space Marines, because, out of all the old books, they're moving the most product and generating the most revenue.

Wehrkind wrote:Are those original printing dates, or reprinting dates?

Original print dates, from what I see.

smart_alex wrote:Perhaps they should come out with a bad moons codex, then a snakebites codex, then a new speed freaks codex, then a geoffs codex, how would the marine players feel. No they are ALL just orks with different paint jobs and a slightly different build.

DE should be next then guard. I do not really think they need to re-do necrons just yet.

Except that Marines sold and Orks didn't. So Marines got Codices and Orks didn't.

DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

From a "rules needs" standpoint the order should be like this:
- Space Wolves (requires Codex: SM)
- Necrons (needs 5th Ed. USRs)
- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)
- Imperial Guard (needs major rebalancing and reconcepting for mobility)
- Dark Eldar (needs minor rules tweaks)

I read somewhere that space wolves were next after marines, but I haven't really seen any space wolf rumors, yet there's tons of guard rumors floating around.. so I'm guessing maybe guard will be next instead?

I heard a pretty reliable rumor that Space Wolves was in December, Guard codex is in the spring.

Those are original dates, all correct except for Witchhunters, which was an early 2004 Codex (Spring 2004).

The major reason the SW are getting redone is they currently require more than one book to field. And they are EASY to redo, especially right after SM. As a business, GW needs some easy wins.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, except for that Jes Goodwin guy. But who listens to him at GW??? He's just heads of plastics.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

That's slowed. Are you all bitter that DE haven't gotten "Squatted" in v5 because they're in the Rulebook? In terms of "waiting for a codex" DE need it, and now with the V5 changes that the game is about to undergo, they need an update very badly. Under V4, their codex was very competitive when used right, under V5 their power level and build types are going to have to change dramatically in order to stay "competitive" and there's no indication that they will be nearly as good as they were before.

From a "rules needs" standpoint the order should be like this:
- Space Wolves (requires Codex: SM)
- Necrons (needs 5th Ed. USRs)
- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)
- Imperial Guard (needs major rebalancing and reconcepting for mobility)
- Dark Eldar (needs minor rules tweaks)

DE are the most impacted by far. Space Wolves probably get more competitive in v5 compared to where their rules are. So what if they need the new SM Dex, anything like that can be addressed via FAQ.

Necrons need it, but again not as badly as the DE do.

The Inquisition need consolidation and re-pointing/adjusting but nothing that is absolutely critical.

IG get much better in v5 and can afford to wait a tick, in terms of an army that needs rules updates, DE are it.

And they are working DE, but as they need a full redo, it's taking longer. SW fill that hole in the schedule, make more money, and fix a major gap (needing two books is crap), all at once.

SW didn't push anything back. It's not a zero sum game. It's a balancing act.

Besides...piss on DE. I need new SW models.

S&M Space Elves vs Large Hairy Men... I think I stumbled upon that convention once after choosing the wrong hotel to spend the night at...

I will agree that DE probably need new rules the most, just about as much as SW need a stand alone codex. I just find I can't care a lot since I don't care for space elves, spikey or other wise, and Space Wolves are sort of meh to me.
IG though, they are pretty cool. Traitor IG are even super cooler.

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)

I don't see why Inquisition needs inducted troops at all. They should get stormtroopers. That's it. If they want SM or IG units they should have to use Apocalypse just like everybody else.

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, except for that Jes Goodwin guy. But who listens to him at GW??? He's just heads of plastics.

From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

That's slowed. Are you all bitter that DE haven't gotten "Squatted" in v5 because they're in the Rulebook?

In terms of "waiting for a codex" DE need it, and now with the V5 changes that the game is about to undergo, they need an update very badly. Under V4, their codex was very competitive when used right, under V5 their power level and build types are going to have to change dramatically in order to stay "competitive" and there's no indication that they will be nearly as good as they were before.

Perhaps *you're* slowed... I'm not bitter, because I'm confident that, in the end, DE will not be part of the 40k universe. I'm patient that way.

The very idea that DE are going to get a book to address power issues is nonsense. DE just don't sell well enough to get powered up. SM & Eldar, no-brainer, they'll get more power. IG and Orks are selling now, so they'll keep pace. But DE? Don't be ridiculous.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
From a "rules needs" standpoint the order should be like this:
- Space Wolves (requires Codex: SM)
- Necrons (needs 5th Ed. USRs)
- Inquisition (needs to merge WH & DH, remove C: SM and C: IG references in favor of Greater and Lesser Conscripts)
- Imperial Guard (needs major rebalancing and reconcepting for mobility)
- Dark Eldar (needs minor rules tweaks)

DE are the most impacted by far. Space Wolves probably get more competitive in v5 compared to where their rules are. So what if they need the new SM Dex, anything like that can be addressed via FAQ.

Necrons need it, but again not as badly as the DE do.

The Inquisition need consolidation and re-pointing/adjusting but nothing that is absolutely critical.

IG get much better in v5 and can afford to wait a tick, in terms of an army that needs rules updates, DE are it.

It appears you don't understand what I meant when I referenced rules. Rules means that the army is playable with a single Codex book, referencing the (soon-to-be) current Rulebook without any FAQs.

The DE aren't impacted at all from a rules perspective. Rules-wise, DE are fully playable with their current Codex because they date back to before Codices got amped up with lots of options and special rules. They're simple and uniform, like the new CSM. Actually, they're simpler than the new CSM...

From a power perspective, perhaps DE will suck, but that isn't important because GW is slowly strangling that army to death. Only an idiot would expect GW to revive DE with a new, high-powered tournament-competitive rulebook.

Now Space Wolves, rules-wise, they *are* a problem because they still require another Codex. They're the only Codex like this. The others (e.g. LATD, USF, ASL, SFreeks) have either been absorbed into the base Codex or killed outright. Because SW are mostly SM, they get a reprieve, and a DA-style Codex with their new upgrade sprue finally being released (what? you don't think GW isn't sitting on this ready to go?).

Inquisition is a rules mess. The Allies rules and restrictions are a disaster: can't take GK and SM; can't take SoB and SM; can't take SM and IG. And the questions are similarly messy: can Inducted Guard use Doctrines? Allied SM use Traits? Deathwatch? What a mess. An you potentially need to have C: DH, C: WH (they can ally with each other), along with C: SM or C:IG, *and* the WD for Deathwatch. That's way too many books. The Inquisition needs to be totally re-concepted, which is a *lot* of work. Plus, this is nearly all low-margin metal, so there's no desire to see this become a best-seller compared to an high-margin all-plastic range. So the low-hanging fruit (SW) goes first.

IG are easier to fix than Inquistition, and have the benefit of lots of Apocalypse sales seeding things, along with requiring vast amounts of highly-profitable plastic models to make an army. IG will definitely hit before Inquisition.

dienekes96 wrote:And they are working DE, but as they need a full redo, it's taking longer.

I keep hearing this for years, but I never see anything on this. You got a link to something concrete from GW? Like pictures of new models (not the Juan Diaz test pieces)? Or a playtest PDF floating the web? Or better yet, a statement from Jervis?

I keep hearing this for years, but I never see anything on this. You got a link to something concrete from GW? Like pictures of new models (not the Juan Diaz test pieces)? Or a playtest PDF floating the web? Or better yet, a statement from Jervis?

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/01/news-comments-from-jervis.html

There's also rumors of a warrior test scuplt by Jes. Not the Juan Daiz stuff from the Spanish GD, there's been no actual pic (so yeah, just a minor rumor).

DE won't get squatted. Squat's went away because GW didn't like the overall feel and fluff and didn't know how to fix em. With the inclusion of DE in the 5ed rulebook, it is clear they have a vision for them.

Why then has it taken so long? Just look at Wood Elves, who languished in direct sales as GW was doing a full remake of their line. DE are bound to get the same treatment (and Brimstone at warseer has hinted as much in the Spain GD thread).

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

I predict your response when DE are released during 5ed is sig worthy.

I've been playing GW games for a long time now and I see a lot of parallels between the Dark Eldar and the Wood Elves. Both are wierd, non-standard armies. Wood Elves were the last to get a new AB, after Ogre Kingdoms no less. However, GW saw a place for them and after a bit of a re-envisioning, the Wood Elves not only have a fantastic line of new models, they also have skyrocketed to become one of the more popular armies (at least round these parts). Just proves that with GOOD models and GOOD rules, even an unpopular army will sell.

So please John, stop with the DE getting squatted, we all know it won't happen and frankly it's gotten stale.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wasn't there also a policy that no codexes will get completely removed?

Yes, DE sales are flat. There are a lot of reasons, but IG were extremely scarce before the last codex and cadian range (not that they are common now). Orks showed that with a good book you can revitalize a nearly dead fanbase, and DA showed that even with a low power codex, some people will try to make pretty models work.

There isn't a ton of interest because everybody that wants the army has one, and there are enough in circulation that resales drive most demand. The army list has been figured out so there isn't a lot of tech advances. Finally, i think 4th edition hurt DE for a lot of reasons. More than any other army, they depended on LOS blocking terrain on turn 1. One bad table draw and losing first turn meant virtually instant lose. And, as has been widely reported, the models range from "ok" to "awful".

I see the new DE codex being a twisted reflection of the Ork one. Orks are an assaulty army with enough shooting to keep everybody honest. DE will be a shooting army with enough assault to finish the job.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Inquisition needs to be totally re-concepted, which is a *lot* of work. Plus, this is nearly all low-margin metal, so there's no desire to see this become a best-seller compared to an high-margin all-plastic range.

This is probably the smartest thing I've ever seen you post JohnHwangDD. Space marines have the most plastics and thus the highest margins. If GW could get away with only selling space marines they would. The only reason other armies even exist is because space marine players need squishy opponents to squish. This is why 40K will always be dominated by marine players. GW would rather everyone play space marines and be done with it.

Considering this, I don't really see why they would want to invest a whole bunch of resources to create a new non-marine model range from scratch. And that's basically what would have to happen in order to redo DE. All the DE have to build on from previous editions is a proven track record of poor sales. I don't see how they would ever be able to get this one past the bean counters. GW might as well do Pan Fo - at least the Pan Fo have never failed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, except for that Jes Goodwin guy. But who listens to him at GW??? He's just heads of plastics.

From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

The last Marine Jes sculpted was 6 years ago.

Would you like to bet on the DE? The Goodwin thing is fact. Sorry. He's been working on their redesign for quite some time. And he was busy doing the Tac Sprue that laid the groundwork for the entire Marine range when Morley was working on the DE plastics eleven years. Please catch up to 2008 if we are going to discuss this.

I guess I'm not sure about this, but weren't DE sales pretty good for a number of years? I got into 40k in 2003, and DE were a legitimate army, more popular around here than Orks or IG. De also don't need a total redo, the raider kit only needs an accessory sprue, the reavers are fine, and the warriors, well, they need a completel redo. Add in a new plastic kit for wyches and you've got a good plastic range in the most popular units.

If there were no real plans for DE, they wouldn't be one of the armies featured in the 5th edition rulebook. I'm quite confident they wouldn't waste the effort if the army was going to remain mail-order only or move on to oblivion. The release of 5th would be the perfect time to kill them off if they were about to do it.

Orks weren't exactly posting record sales before their shiny new rules and models, either.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
From the modeling that comes out, it would appear that Jes' loves are Craftworld Eldar and Space Marines. If Jes actually liked DE, the Warriors would be better and he would have sculpted the metals, rather than shuffling them of onto Morley as a rushed hack job.

I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

Can you say for sure what he likes/dislikes? Like Dienekes said, he was involved in a number of projects while the DE were being developed.

It's a vicious cycle. They are unwilling to invest in DE because it failed to pick up. Then again, I gather there wasn't that much of an investment, with 4 or so plastic kits and the rest being metal ones. It still has a loyal customer base, and probably people are fairly interested in them, but without new miniatures I can't see this happening.

Let's look at it this way, no army would sell if it had fugly miniatures. And 90% of the DE range is just that. Then again, how can we consider it a failure as an army, given that the investment was probably minimal? Space Marines keep selling because they keep getting investment.

And I've heard from lots of reliable people that DE are in the hands of Jes Goodwin. As for why no pics are available, I could see Jes' dislike of "ruined surprises" (remember the Death Jester?) as a contributing factor to this.

I see them as far from dead, they are covered in the new 40k book, with a revamped warrior (that may be a sign of things to come) and apparently some Comorragh drawings too. If it's dead, and is reviled by everyone, why would they commission Dave Gallagher to draw the warrior? And these pictures are generally based on something real, like the Kayvaan Shrike, Kharn, etc.

The logic goes like this:

No-one is buying DE.

We make new models and good rules.

Loads of people buy DE and we make money.

Sorted.

I really don't think it matters if an army "needs" a new codex or not. They'll release armies based on what they can sell, and then tailor the rules to sell more of what's new. Of course everyone wants to see new stuff for their favorite army.

I think DE will eventually get Wood-Elf-Ified, but not anytime soon.

New edition means new space marine codex. So they put out some shiney new marines and right when Xmas is about to strike.. "oh no! Another marine codex with even shineyer stuff! MOM! Buy it or I'll never take my ritalin again!!"

So them doing a space wolf codex IMO has nothing to do with rules needing an update and everything to do with selling more new marine stuff

Maybe I haven't been looking but I just haven't seen many space wolf rumors other than "they're coming", yet there's tons of posts about new guard stuff all over the web.. so that just lead me to believe guard might really be next. No way to really know for sure till the time comes I guess...

i believe the DE will make a return soon, who really knows(well the ones who do arent talking)..... but i think they do have a little love i mean they put them in the new dawn of war game, which i think was a ploy to judge how the consumer feels about them(love em or hate em)... however i do hope they get a redo because i have a couple years worth of ebay DE picked up real cheap and awaiting a good codex for the work to begin lol

Except that Marines sold and Orks didn't. So Marines got Codices and Orks didn't.

That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. SW don't need to be redone, they would do better doing a different army. SW need to just be mixed in with regular marines. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

winterman wrote:http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/01/news-comments-from-jervis.html

There's also rumors of a warrior test scuplt by Jes.

DE won't get squatted. Squat's went away because GW didn't like the overall feel and fluff and didn't know how to fix em. With the inclusion of DE in the 5ed rulebook, it is clear they have a vision for them.

The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

DE wouldn't need to be squatted if Tau weren't created. But the Tau have taken the slot that the DE were meant to have.

Polonius wrote:Wasn't there also a policy that no codexes will get completely removed?

GW promises much. How long do you think GW will keep this promise?

dienekes96 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I predict we'll get Hrud and Pan Fo before we get a new DE book.

The last Marine Jes sculpted was 6 years ago.

Would you like to bet on the DE? The Goodwin thing is fact. Sorry. He's been working on their redesign for quite some time. And he was busy doing the Tac Sprue that laid the groundwork for the entire Marine range when Morley was working on the DE plastics eleven years. Please catch up to 2008 if we are going to discuss this.

If Jes' working on DE, then there should be something. Because it's been well over 2 years.

Destrado wrote:Can you say for sure what he likes/dislikes? Like Dienekes said, he was involved in a number of projects while the DE were being developed.

And I've heard from lots of reliable people that DE are in the hands of Jes Goodwin. As for why no pics are available, I could see Jes' dislike of "ruined surprises" (remember the Death Jester?) as a contributing factor to this.

I see them as far from dead, they are covered in the new 40k book, with a revamped warrior (that may be a sign of things to come) and apparently some Comorragh drawings too.

Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

smart_alex wrote:That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

The idea that GW should operate as a charity instead of a profit-making enterprise that gives the customer what they want is an odd one. Also, how do you intend GW to understand the notion that your small number of dollars are somehow more worthy of attention than the much greater number of dollars coming from those "kiddies"? In GW-land, money talks. If you had the most aggregate spend, maybe GW would pay more attention to what you want instead of what they want.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

No we wouldn't.

We didn't even know that GW was working on Marines first for sure until a month or so ago (although an educated guess would say they would be given, how much they love Spase Mareinz).

We don't even know for sure that they're working on Space Wolves or Guard, yet they're supposed to be. Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously, but because GW doesn't trust their audience and has to keep everything secret, we don't know anything for sure until someone leaks it at Warseer or BLOS.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

Yes, because Games Workshop releases the miniatures it's sculptors want to release. Brian Nelson is one of the highly acclaimed sculptors GW has and he doesn't get that liberty. The Perry twins are probably some of the oldest sculptors working there and they don't release what they want.

Maybe Jes has chosen to work on DE. I haven't seen much of his work lately.

Jes might've liked the DE concept, but the SM Tactical (and the Assault, and the Terminator Captain, etc) were much more important to the company thus couldn't be relegated to another sculptor. If Jes didn't like the DE, I wonder why there were sketches of a warrior in the Inquis Exterminatus and probably in the Gothic and the Eldritch, just like there were numerous other things (though not many Marines in Inquis).

The artwork you cited from 3rd edition were black and white, quick drawings that I would sooner call sketches.
Really, you use so much of your brainpower trying to negate the DE out of existence.
On the other hand, the drawing I saw from 5th was by Dave Gallagher, a well-known GW artist. Secondly, it was not based on any warrior, that is to say, it had details that were uncommon for the typical DE warrior, and artwork like this is generally indicative of the work that is being developed.

Finally, I have answered the 6-month window question. The "Death Jester" episode put that window down to something like 3-month because Jes wasn't pleased with the leakage.
And if DE are being worked like the WE, I expect them to keep it very tightly under wraps until they're ready.

Sure, a lot of wishful thinking here But probably someone in GW thinks like you, since DE might've been replaced by Space Wolves.
A shame really, because the SW's only reasons for being first is being SM. And it seems just the way you like it, Marines vs. Marines.

EDIT: Because December/Spring is 3 months away sometimes you make me laugh, John!

EDIT #2: 2 years isn't a lot of time. The Eldar Falcon took nearly that, from the prime concepts to the cutting of the moulds. I imagine it would be faster now, but if it's a whole race then it could be a lot more. And it was kept under wraps. The month after that, the Fire Prism was released.

Agreed. They wouldn't be commissioning new artwork if the army was about to get phased out. DE are well, well beyond GW's self-imposed marketing window (rumors consistently say 2009), so why would we have seen something by now?

John, I understand you play devil's advocate a lot here. But I can't fathom why you think Eldar are on the way and DE aren't, when all the circumstantial evidence points to the contrary? You can't *will* codices in and out of existence. Believe me, I've tried.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

What would we have? Seriously? I've never argued with you on Dakka, but I find your posts willfully obtuse. I am TELLING YOU that Jes is working on them. What that means, I don't know. Sketches, sculpts, etc. I don't know. Much like he wasn't pleased with the Tyranids from 3rd (for which HE redid the Tyrant and Carnifex to unify the range in 4th), he was unhappy with the DE. He is working the range, and yes, has been for quite some time. You can choose to ignore the multiple members who are telling you this and retreat into "they are getting squatted" as much as you like. But they aren't.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Jes' working on DE, then there should be something. Because it's been well over 2 years.

Why do you think you'd see something. You didn't see ANY Tyranids when he was working on their redesign...not until GW showed you. And do you think he doesn't have a day job (again, head of plastics).

JohnHwangDD wrote:Jes has been drawing and sculpting SM and Eldar since Rogue Trader, and it would appear that he likes these two armies. Based on his position, one imagines that Jes has the ability to choose to work on practically whatever current project he wants to. What is GW going to say to their star sculptor and artist, without whom their universe doesn't exist? Tell him to sod off and give the putty to Blanche? If Jes liked DE, one imagines that it would have been his perogative to choose to sculpt them. Instead, he chose to do the Tactical SM.

So we are using speculation on the mind of Goodwin circa 1997 to claim the DE are getting squatted? Like the Tyranids, Jes was displeased with the DE in 3rd. So NOW he wants to work their range. How is this not getting through? And yes, I believe Jes (like Blanche) has leverage now. A lot more than in 1997, because his plastics basically made the company from 1998 on. But he likely wanted to work on the flagship kit (the Marine Tac Sprue) in 1998, assuming another good sculptor would knock out the DE. That's speculation, and irrelevant. What is relevant (AGAIN) is that he has worked on them in the past two years or so. Why are you so keen to disbelieve that? Because enough disparate and unconnected folks have told you he is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Jes is redoing the DE, then the DE should be far enough along in GW's 2-year cycle that we should have seen something. Given that GW was sneak-peaking Daemons and such 3 months prior to release, the idea that DE are still under wraps for December or Spring is silly. OTOH, the IG rumors are a clear hint of what's coming up next.

Are you obtuse about this because you want IG? December is SIX months away, and spring is about TEN months away. And the cycle is different for different races. The DE requires as much work as any army in 4th or 5th. More than the Orks. More than the Eldar. More than ANY other army. The WE analogy has been brought up dozens of times because it's APT.

And most have said the IG are aroung summer. No one has dated the DE with any sort of sticking power, expect to say 2009 is likely. I'm betting on 4th quarter...so it's still a year plus away. But they AREN'T GOING AWAY. Why?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think artwork is grossly overrated. When you open the 40k3 Rulebook to p. 116, there are pictures of a Clawed fiend of the Donorian Sector, a Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud, a Necron, a Kroot, and a jellyfish. Along with an Ambull, Tarellian Dog-soldier and a couple wierd weapons. On p. 117 the Eldar shows a "Savage" (Exodite). So out of these things which were pictured, GW still has quite a ways to go to fulfill their promises dating back to 3rd Edition.

You are comparing a throwaway image from the 3rd with a two page color spread and full fluff section in the 5th book? Each of the major armies gets a 6-8 pages spread in the fluff section for the 5th rulebook.

Space Marines
IG
Chaos SM
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Chaos Daemons
Tau
Orks
Necrons
Tyranids

Gee, what do all of those have in common? I don't see =][= there at all either. I think they are in the IG section. The 5th rulebook indicates the DE are a major race. It's more than just "artwork."

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

We don't even know for sure that they're working on Space Wolves or Guard, yet they're supposed to be. Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously, but because GW doesn't trust their audience and has to keep everything secret, we don't know anything for sure until someone leaks it at Warseer or BOLS.

They don't work in series. They work in parallel. The SM (and probably SW) models are in mass production. The SM Codex is being printed. I'd wager the SW Codex is being finalized. Models are being painted/approved for the post-xmas release, with playtesting being done on the release after that, and sculpting on the release after that, and design on the release after that. Does that make sense? Can you grasp the assembly line-like nature that keeps the painters, sculptors, writers, and testers busy?

JohnHwangDD wrote:The BOLS reference is now 6 months old. If GW were really working on DE, we'd have something by now.

Same with Jes' test sculpt. There should be something.

No, we wouldn't. When I worked for GW, I was at a manager's meeting and we saw the enitre WE release photos at least 8 to 10 months before the public did. At another meeting I saw a fully painted Mumakil for LOTR with the same timeframe bofore it started showing up on message boards, etc. GW lets the public see stuff when they are ready to let the public see stuff.

mattyboy22 wrote:No, we wouldn't. When I worked for GW, I was at a manager's meeting and we saw the enitre WE release photos at least 8 to 10 months before the public did. At another meeting I saw a fully painted Mumakil for LOTR with the same timeframe bofore it started showing up on message boards, etc. GW lets the public see stuff when they are ready to let the public see stuff.

Seconded. Especially now with the "3 month window" on the rumor mill going on. Pretty sure that product that is being released in Spring '09 has already been worked on for a few months now, and stuff that's coming out for the end of the year is about a month or two to printing/manufacturing.

dienekes96 wrote:They don't work in series. They work in parallel. The SM (and probably SW) models are in mass production. The SM Codex is being printed. I'd wager the SW Codex is being finalized. Models are being painted/approved for the post-xmas release, with playtesting being done on the release after that, and sculpting on the release after that, and design on the release after that. Does that make sense? Can you grasp the assembly line-like nature that keeps the painters, sculptors, writers, and testers busy?

Chuck: Breathe.

I actually agree, as I said, 'Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously...'. I'm certain that they don't just ignore a Codex until it's time to do it. I'm sure they've all sat down and had meetings about Necrons, Guard, Space Wolves and DE, and have done work on some if not all of them.

BYE

dienekes96 wrote: with playtesting being done on the release after that, ...keeps the ... testers busy?

Yep, gotta keep those testers busy for that whole hour they put into playtesting.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Chuck: Breathe.

I actually agree, as I said, 'Chances are they work on a lot of things simultaneously...'. I'm certain that they don't just ignore a Codex until it's time to do it. I'm sure they've all sat down and had meetings about Necrons, Guard, Space Wolves and DE, and have done work on some if not all of them.

I know YOU know that. Most everyone on this board knows that. I am having trouble seeing the paradigm Hwang is coming from. I don't claim any insider knowledge on their release patterns or concept-->release process, but there is plenty of evidence to drawn some fairly basic conclusions from.

I tend to agree with the thought that doesn't really trust in any release until they've seen a) models (like the SMs and Dark Elves) or b) GW confirmation (like Warriors of Chaos). But I still acknowledge the speculation, and it's VERY rarely incorrect. I want SW more than anything from GW, and I am expecting they'll be released as early as December, and maybe as late as April. But I am not counting on it. Until I see a model, it's not certain. but that's OK. That's the business.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE should be dead last (or else Squatted) unless their sales pick up. Personally, my money is on DE being Squatted in 6th or 7th Edition. None of the developers or sculptors care about DE, so they're just going to languish, regardless of the Internet whining.

Well, you are out of luck, as new DE art appeared on the forums lately...

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW promises much. How long do you think GW will keep this promise?

Yes, yes, JohnHwang. Good! Give in to your cynical feelings! Strike down the DE rumors with all of your hatred and your journey to the Dakka Side will be complete!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

smart_alex wrote:That only goes to show that when companies do things for money it ruins it for everyone else. GW just pushes marines cause its what the kiddies like. LAME

The idea that GW should operate as a charity instead of a profit-making enterprise that gives the customer what they want is an odd one. Also, how do you intend GW to understand the notion that your small number of dollars are somehow more worthy of attention than the much greater number of dollars coming from those "kiddies"? In GW-land, money talks. If you had the most aggregate spend, maybe GW would pay more attention to what you want instead of what they want.

So be it. Fanboi.

Fanboi is harsh, but that quotes a keeper.
sigged Abby

Destrado wrote:The artwork you cited from 3rd edition were black and white, quick drawings that I would sooner call sketches.

EDIT #2: 2 years isn't a lot of time.

And yet, those were the sum total of the races in the 40k universe that GW chose to highlight.

2 years is the GW development cycle, from concept to release.

gorgon wrote:John, I understand you play devil's advocate a lot here. But I can't fathom why you think Eldar are on the way and DE aren't,

Eldar sell and show *much* more than DE, so GW likes the Eldar. Therefore, Eldar continue to get the love, and DE die a slow death.

dienekes96 wrote:I am TELLING YOU that Jes is working on them.

What that means, I don't know. Sketches, sculpts, etc. I don't know.

He is working the range, and yes, has been for quite some time. You can choose to ignore the multiple members who are telling you this and retreat into "they are getting squatted" as much as you like. But they aren't.

Because you sat in Jes' office and actually saw him working on them? Or because you desperately want Jes to be working on them.

Based on your follow-up, I'm going to have to guess the latter is the actual case.

If he's been working on DE for quite some time, we'd have a solid release date. Recall that DE were supposed to have been worked on simultaneously with the last Eldar Codex, that there was supposed to be an immediate follow-on release of DE after Eldar. What happened to all those "reliable" sources?

Maybe they were blowing smoke up your skirt, and you were believing because you wanted to believe? After all, when GW pulls an entire race off the shelves in favor of a brand new race (Tau), that should be considered a pretty serious sign. *cough* Chaos Dwarves vs. Ogres *cough*.

dienekes96 wrote:I am having trouble seeing the paradigm Hwang is coming from. I don't claim any insider knowledge on their release patterns or concept-->release process, but there is plenty of evidence to drawn some fairly basic conclusions from.

I tend to agree with the thought that doesn't really trust in any release until they've seen a) models (like the SMs and Dark Elves) or b) GW confirmation (like Warriors of Chaos). But I still acknowledge the speculation, and it's VERY rarely incorrect. I want SW more than anything from GW, and I am expecting they'll be released as early as December, and maybe as late as April. But I am not counting on it. Until I see a model, it's not certain. but that's OK. That's the business.

Whenever you want to guess what GW will do, just try to figure out what will quickly make more money this month, this quarter, and this year - you will rarely go wrong if you use that as your criteria, particularly if you remove any project which would be "difficult" based on product lines that are "slow" and low-margin.

So in my case, I see a line which has been pulled from the shelves and is only mentioned in the rulebook out of tradition.


As for the Welves, recall that they had a Ravening Hordes list, and then a White Dwarf list that was reprinted in Chronicles prior to their new Army Book. If DE really were going to get a new Codex, where's their WD test preview? Oh, wait, there isn't one.


Why is it that a color page in the Rulebook engenders so much speculation and defense of a new DE Codex, when similar new color pages for Eldar, etc. don't? After all, the new rulebook has a brand-new 2-page Eldar picture. Why can't that be the basis for proving conclusively that Eldar will get a Codex *and* Biel-Tan before the DE get another update?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Because you sat in Jes' office and actually saw him working on them? Or because you desperately want Jes to be working on them.

I could care less about the DE. People I trust, living on different continents and who don't know each other, have separately spoken to JG and confirmed his interest and redesign efforts, months apart from one another. I believed it was common knowledge for the past 9 months or so.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Based on your follow-up, I'm going to have to guess the latter is the actual case.

I don't give a fig what you guess, Hwang. SW are all I care about. As I've said more than once.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If he's been working on DE for quite some time, we'd have a solid release date. Recall that DE were supposed to have been worked on simultaneously with the last Eldar Codex, that there was supposed to be an immediate follow-on release of DE after Eldar. What happened to all those "reliable" sources?

I never heard those rumors, and I bet I keep my ear closer to the ground than you. And we don't get release dates until after the most current release. We don't have a release date for the SW (although UK rumormongers from warseer saw new models for them over a year ago), and they'd be sooner than DE.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Whenever you want to guess what GW will do, just try to figure out what will quickly make more money this month, this quarter, and this year - you will rarely go wrong if you use that as your criteria, particularly if you remove any project which would be "difficult" based on product lines that are "slow" and low-margin.

So in my case, I see a line which has been pulled from the shelves and is only mentioned in the rulebook out of tradition.

The DE aren't "mentioned" in the 5th rulebook. I can only assume you have NOT seen it, because you are talking out of your anus on this one. They have as many fluff pages as the Orks, Eldar, Necrons, and Tau do. It's not a mention. It's not the one piece of art you've seen.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why is it that a color page in the Rulebook engenders so much speculation and defense of a new DE Codex, when similar new color pages for Eldar, etc. don't? After all, the new rulebook has a brand-new 2-page Eldar picture. Why can't that be the basis for proving conclusively that Eldar will get a Codex *and* Biel-Tan before the DE get another update?

Because discussing this with you is like talking to my 4 year old son. I can't make my points any clearer, or even use smaller words. Whether you want to believe it or not, there will be a 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex. It will have the model range designed (though not completely sculpted) by Jes Goodwin. I don't care, as they aren't my army, and never have been. I have NO friends that play them. I have no horse in this race, and no reason to care.

With that, I've hijacked the IG thread enough, arguing with someone not worth the time I spent on my first post, much less this one. Have a good un.

dienekes96 wrote:I could care less about the DE.

People I trust, living on different continents and who don't know each other, have separately spoken to JG and confirmed his interest and redesign efforts, months apart from one another.

I never heard those rumors, and I bet I keep my ear closer to the ground than you.

The DE aren't "mentioned" in the 5th rulebook. I can only assume you have NOT seen it, because you are talking out of your anus on this one. They have as many fluff pages as the Orks, Eldar, Necrons, and Tau do. It's not a mention. It's not the one piece of art you've seen.

Because discussing this with you is like talking to my 4 year old son.

I can't make my points any clearer, or even use smaller words.

Whether you want to believe it or not, there will be a 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex. It will have the model range designed (though not completely sculpted) by Jes Goodwin.

I don't care, as they aren't my army, and never have been. I have NO friends that play them. I have no horse in this race, and no reason to care.

With that, I've hijacked the IG thread enough, arguing with someone not worth the time I spent on my first post, much less this one. Have a good un.

If you don't care, stop posting.

And if this were all true, it amuses me that there isn't anything on the DE, but we've been treated to a new Eldar Jetbike.

If your ear is close to the ground, but didn't hear those rumors, perhaps you need to extract your head from it's cozy orifice before you sit on the ground...

And as my mini-preview post from a while ago demonstrates, yes, I *have* seen the new rulebook. As I noted, it more than meets my expectations.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't yet comprehend that people can understand each other while disagreeing. In other worse, I understand you - I just believe that you are wrong. And I don't need to compare your mental faculties with an infant to do this.

WRT talking out one's anus, perhaps if you extracted your head from said orifice, perhaps your communications would be clearer.

I don't need to believe anything until I actually see something. And for the past several years, the DE have been all talk, *NO* product. Therefore, Occam's Razor concludes that the DE *will* be Squatted in due time. The idea that GW is expending great effort on the DE, but it's all hidden and secret is pretty laughable.

As for making value judgements about another human's worth, I squashed a mosquito today. And another one in my car.

But yeah, you have a *great* life, too. Thanks for the entertainment to date, because I'm going to Ignore you and save Dakka the amusement of our little fun exchanges.

Then you admit to not having any proofs of DE being bunked other than pointing at Tau and Chaos Dwarfs?

Miniatures drive sales. How many metal possessed did they sell? And plastic? Maybe it's a question of investment. If they're willing to put out good stuff, maybe people will notice an army that has yet to receive a new miniature after ten years.
If in between Marine releases they could get some boxes and painted armies to be shown, maybe people would get interested.
Like the DeathKorps of Krieg and the Elysians - how many people would be playing Guard, or at least buy a few boxes, if they were available in plastic from GW?

I can't say if you're wrong or not, but I'm inclined to think that they are getting worked on.

How long has it been since we saw the new Eldar Jetbike?

The new DE Cold One, the new DE Raiders (of which there was no indication that were being redone as far as I know)?

How long was it before the Baneblade came out, and rumours started flying that it would? Or the Drop Pods?

The races you pointed out from the 3rd ed book, the only ones that were made into something were the Necrons. And they already had some miniatures released nearing the end of 2nd edition.

Wood Elves had been like that, too. For ages really.

I'm not saying anything is certain about the DEldar, just that there is some stuff pointing their way that can't be ignored.

You're being increasingly and stunningly stubborn. You put your hands over your ears and do nothing to refute what arguments you've been presented with.

Finally, just how did Tau take the Dark Eldar's place? They play nothing alike.
You could point that out during late 3rd/most of 4th edition with Tyranids and Orks, as one dug into the strengths of the other. Orks were a minority's army, with weak sales, because of the lack of support.

EDIT: This would be a lot more coherent if I wasn't posting it on an empty stomach at five-thirty a.m., and I have to get up at eight after a week in which I've barely slept. Oh dear.

Getting back on topic, I hope that we get some confirmation on those rumored IG bikes soon. I need to know whether to get the new Scout Bikes for my Rough Riders, or if I should wait for even lighter bikes made for the IG line.

Overall my IG army is currently stalled as I choose a paint scheme for the 40 odd Guardsmen I have ready for paint, and work on my Orks

Mine is sort of in limbo too. If I add anything it will just be some extra guys and some heavy weapons.. but at the moment I'm working on my chaos army and not allowing myself to buy anything new till it's all painted. Should take me till at least sometime this fall I was thinking of using the scout bikes for rough riders as well .. who knows maybe we'll end up with the same bike, but a different sprue for the riders? I'd love to see if that jeep rumor is true too, I'm thinking of adding some marine land speeder jeep conversions to use as sentinels.

These rumors are worrying me, because I'm so close to finally finishing my IG. I need to paint another anti-tank squad and my baneblade and I'll have every IG model I own painted (about 7500 pts before allies).

Still, I'm excited about new units. I hope they add bikes, and don't simply replace Rough Riders. The IG fast attack section is a little light with only three entries.

Sorry John.

"Something along those lines. DE codex is very much alive as report on this website and minis have been done. Not hing new here but its nice to get a 'horses mouth' confirmation."

Just in case you're wondering, it's a comment by Philbrad on Rick P.'s words.

Guess you can "unignore" Dienekes... If he wants to

Destrado wrote:Sorry John.

"Something along those lines. DE codex is very much alive as report on this website and minis have been done. Not hing new here but its nice to get a 'horses mouth' confirmation."

Just in case you're wondering, it's a comment by Philbrad on Rick P.'s words.

Guess you can "unignore" Dienekes... If he wants to

Can you name those website for me?

If referring to "DE raider is worked by jes,ready but delayed for 9 months" i wonder.

Let's start a new thread on Dark Eldar, shall we? And keep the vitriol down.

With a small exception, IG hasn't even been mentioned. Since there's already another IG rumor thread, I'm locking this one.