Are there any rumors lurking out there about what will be of the Blood Angels in 5th Edition? I have like 2500 pts of Blood Angels but there is no codex or anything for them.

Just the downloadable one.

Downloadable one? Is it configured to 5e & new marines or is it still the 4e?

Still the same one, and it's likely all they'll have for awhile given how recently it was made.

In saying that the chaos warriors got a list 5 months ago in WD and they are out this month for WHFB.

I to want a new (and decent list) so that only dark angels players will be the marines whining...

I just read through that codex and it really doesn't do the blood angels justice. As one of the primary chapters of SM in the earlier years I feel it should have it's own codex with a decent rules set. Not just giving assault squads as troops and making scout squads elites...JMO

Yeah, but BA still plays well with 5th, I took 3rd place at Ard Boyz 1st round with it and I know at the second round it took 4th or so. still some good options with the list just not a brutal beat stick like the new marines are without much preparation.

Yea. I agree. Do you use any special characters? Do you have any of your lists that have worked for you up on dakka?
Thanks

I spoke to Dave Taylor at the LVGT and he said Blood Angels *would* get their own, stand alone codex, but he did not have an answer as to when.

Well that's some good news...I guess I should keep them around then..lol

You shouldn't expect any update to the online codex for some time. It's not going to get the goodies from the main Marine Codex, so ONLY use the wargear that's listed online, and don't take them from the new SM book.

The new marine codex came a month or two ago. Use that. Special "Red Marines" rules can get in line behind the Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Inquisition.

Yea I guess I could just use the SM codex. It is a real bummer though

Drummerboy wrote:Yea I guess I could just use the SM codex. It is a real bummer though

Agreed. When they took out a lot of the choices for BA (VERY little unit upgrade choices), took out the SHP, and other what not, all the customization fun went out of the army. THEN gave regular SM every upgrade under the sun and more flexibility, I found very little reason to play BA. Sad since I've been playing them since 1988.

Unless you are playing in tournaments you can use the real BA codex, it´s strong the way it is.
The only thing with playing Blood Angels, and marines at all, is that you can´t really do what for example ork players do,
create one single strong list and play evenly with every other army out there. With Blood Angels you have to have extra models and choices
so you can field an army depending on your opponent.

At least that´s what I do and it works for me

But I agree with you about the codex being "a bit thin" to say the least...
But hopefully we´ll get a real printed codex some time soon!


//Edge

Yea I know other armies are due for an update, but BA have a lot more history than most of the armies out there.

I was thinking of selling my army, but I guess I'll keep my BA around until the time comes...

Wait a minute...

You have the Death Company...Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and Rending Attacks. Put a Chaplain with them, and you have 4 Rending attacks per Marine on the charge, striking at I6 and S5, Fearless, and can reroll missed to-hit rolls. Is this not enough?

Next, you have Veteran Assault Troops. They are cheap in price, can take Meltaguns, and can either be Jump Infantry or Transport based. Is this not enough?

Blood Angels can have either normal Tactical Squads or Jump Infantry as scoring troops. Is this not enough?

Mephiston is insane...

Dante is great...

Oh yeah, and even Corbulo has a 4+ Invulnerable Save, and gives all units within 12" of him Furious Charge. Run him with 2 Veteran Squads on either side of him, and you have half your army striking at I6 with 4 attacks per Marine. That's more than 80 I6 S5 attacks on the charge if you run full squads. Is that not enough?

Almost every generic HQ choice is better than what is presented in the new Marine Codex...

These are just a few things that come to mind...I will not mention the Twin-linked Assault Cannon Predator...

How is this list a "poor" or "bad" list?

What more could you complain about?

"I don't get the new Veteran Units in my BA list..."

You can buy TWO Veteran Assault Squads, with Power Fists and Meltaguns, for the price of ONE of the new SM Codex Veteran squads.

How is this bad?

The only people who have ANY cause to complain are the Dark Angel players, and that's only because they are playing a non Death Wing / Raven wing army...

Furious Charge takes them to I5, not 6.

Mephiston is overpriced garbage.

Corbulo doesn't have a jump pack.

Leadership 9 Librarians are useless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the BA codex is a "bad" codex, but when I can see what kind of cheese lists can be made with the new codex, and it's done cheaper, you're going to hear some complaining.

Well I dont know about The Blood angels, but I know they're starting work pretty soon for a new SW codex. So I would assume other Chapters would follow. And the reason they aren't even mentioned in the SM Codex is because this one is focusing on Codex Chapters only. Blood angels are non-codex, as you know.

here is a list of units unique to Blood Angels:

Dante
Mephiston
Lemartes
Corbulo
Tycho

Honor Guard (w. unique characters such Sanguinary Priest and Tech Adept)

Assault squads as a troop choice

Furioso dreadnaught w. Death Company upgrade
Veteran assault squads

Baal Predators

Mephiston is a powerful special character. I think some people don't like the fact that he does not have an invulnerable save but with T5 and FNP he works quite well without one from my experience using him.

G

I forgot to mention both the BA rhinos and Baal predator both have over charged engines.

G

As a Blood Angels player, I can attest that we are not in dire straights for a rewrite. Or list is plenty powerful and we have plenty of unique things that set us enough apart.

The only things I really want are the new Strom Shields, Land Raider Redeemers, Thunderfire Cannons, and Master of the Forge. But I have APOC to field those units, so it is no big deal right now.

Mephiston is overpriced garbage.

When was the last time you faced him? Though so. Mephiston popping out a Land Raider is insane.

Corbulo doesn't have a jump pack.

He doesn't need it. I have been having good success with him riding around with a Chaplain and walking Death Company in a Land Raider. Having a Land Raider with a 12" FC zone is ace.

Leadership 9 Librarians are useless.

It's not that they are useless, they just compete with better HQ choices. They are more of an assault character anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the BA codex is a "bad" codex, but when I can see what kind of cheese lists can be made with the new codex, and it's done cheaper, you're going to hear some complaining.

I don't know if cheaper is a good way to describe the differences. Blood Angels get plenty of toys for decent prices, whereas C:SM get plenty of toys for higher prices.

My only complaint about the list is that we get zero teleport homers. But I can deal.

I forgot to mention both the BA rhinos and Baal predator both have over charged engines.

Which makes our Rhinos better.

The biggest thing I wanted from the new Marine dex was the FNP from apothecaries. I might have run a command quad in more than just apocalypse games if we got that.

I think that the Blood Angels are quite competitive, but some BA players just want the new toys in the SM codex.

And if you think you need a new codex, just look to the SW players who have been waiting years.

SW players are clever enough not to want a new codex. Long fangs and all.

G

I was originally planning to move forward as Codex Marines for 5th Edition. However, I think that the new SM Codex is poo. The more I read it, the less I like it.

I'm going to be playing Blood Angels, using the current WD / downloadable list.

CaptainLoken wrote:Wait a minute...

You have the Death Company...Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and Rending Attacks. Put a Chaplain with them, and you have 4 Rending attacks per Marine on the charge, striking at I6 and S5, Fearless, and can reroll missed to-hit rolls. Is this not enough?

Next, you have Veteran Assault Troops. They are cheap in price, can take Meltaguns, and can either be Jump Infantry or Transport based. Is this not enough?

DC: Anyone who is afraid of 1 unit just doesn't know how to kill it. Rending used to be scarier than it is now, and the same goes for FNP. They are a great unit, but you shouldn't be wetting yourself when you see them.

Honor Guard is too expensive to use if you want to give them any gear. ESPECIALLY combining a small squad size and the new casualty removal rules; might as well just hand your opponent some points.

Vet Assault are also nice... and expensive. Your idea of "cheap" must mean something I don't understand. All of those choices bring the point cost waaaay up on a unit that's just as easy to kill as any other marine. They ARE one of the best units in the BA codex, but still... I can't justify the cost on anything other than a 1750+ game.

Looks like I didn't site enough things when I made in my complaints comparing the BA codex to the SM codex. Here goes:

1. Combat squads are utter inflexible crap. I find myself having to replace an entire unit because my points go over the list limit. Normally I could drop 1 or 2 marines out of a 10 man squad and meet my point budget. Now? No. I have to take something completely different.
2. Extremely limited options (or options that are over priced and aren't worth it) make all squads look like cookie cutter versions of every other squad. Not very exciting to build an army. Armies start looking like every other army and that's not very exciting either. I loved my older army because it stood out, now... not so much. Core units are boring as hell in this list.
3. Units that aren't worth taking are put in a codex to show "variety". See: Honor Guard
4. An army shouldn't have to put it's leaders or "trick" units in a land raider to make them useful. Corbulo shouldn't have to show up in a land raider just to make it to the front lines. No JP makes him ride in a Razor back (losing it's long range fire if you want to keep up, and fragile), a half full rhino (not enough for support and fragile), or a half full drop pod (unknown when it will come in, unknown if it will be able to be supported, etc).... or a land raider. So, I guess if you really want to use Corbulo then his cost is 350 (him + his ride).
5. No one should say a codex's leaders are the reason something should stay "as-is" or doesn't need tuning. EVERY codex should have kick ass leaders, but they're NOT the reason for the army's sole success as a whole.
6. LD 9 librarians are crap. There's no punch behind those psychic hoods. There is no fluff reason for BA NOT rate a LD 10, so again, LD 9 is unfounded.
7. SHP went on a sabatical. Did Interigator Chaplins go with them? NO? Huh! There's no reason for them to be cut out.
8. All our veterans forgot all their skills. I guess all those HUNDREDS of battles they've been in just kinda went out their collective ears. Combine that with less options and it's a double insult.
9. Scouts as "elites" is garbage. The only elite scouts are from the SW codex.
10 5 man terminator squads are not worth taking. It makes NO sense to have them limited to 5. No tactical sense and no fluff reasons.

What would I like to see?
1. Wider options for core units. Make the basic army building fun again.
2. Throw out combat squads.
3. Bring SOME of the wargear in line with the new SM codex. I'm not talking about importing everything (No Thunderfire cannon, or Sternguard for example) since the codex shouldn't have EVERYTHING the basic marine does. However, AFAIK BA aren't under any Mars embargo so some of the equipment should become standardized.
4. Scouts to troops.
5. Wider use of teleport homers as per the basic marine codex.
6. Up to 10 man terminator squads.
7. Bring back SHP.
8. Options of LD 10 Librarians.
9. Options for Elites to buy skills or certain Leaders to grant them to units (as in SM codex, taking certain leaders grants certain skills).

@Moopy: Clearly, BA gene-seed isn't very good for Librarians. But you should be thankful for WS4 BS4 Scouts, instead of WS3 BS3 Scouts. Similarly, Honor Guard and Vet Assault Marine are costed fairly. Having Assault Marines as Troops is good. And the points costs are generally fair.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: Clearly, BA gene-seed isn't very good for Librarians. But you should be thankful for WS4 BS4 Scouts, instead of WS3 BS3 Scouts. Similarly, Honor Guard and Vet Assault Marine are costed fairly. Having Assault Marines as Troops is good. And the points costs are generally fair.

Personally, I'd much rather have WS/BS 3 scouts with teleport homers.
There is no clearly about the geneseed until it's plainly stated for the reason behind it. I could buy that logic if it were stated more prominently.
You can not tell me that 15pts for a plasma pistol is fair. You're going to use it maybe once or twice in the game and run the risk of it killing your troops while doing it. I could see 10pts, but until then, there's no way in hell I'll ever take them for my assaulters.
Honor Guard are over priced for the reasons already mentioned. Roughly 20-25 pts (depending on how you calculate DC) for an A2 walking Marine with in a small unit size isn't worth it. You can add MORE points to the expensive models by giving them jump packs, and MORE points if you want an option or two (which are easier to lose in casualty removal). A 30pt (with JP) honor guard is just as easy to kill as a normal 15 pt marine.
Assault troops as Troops IS nice. However, the options for the unit are so limited I could count them on one hand, and 4 of THOSE are for the Sgt. Again, this unit orgnaization is where the codex does well, and other reason why BA shouldn't have a lot of the specialized units from the SM codex. My point is the options for building Assault squads, that don't look like cookie cutter versions of each other, are gone.

scouts can't compete with the other great choices for elitės but that is no big loss.

VAS are of great value for the points and combined with FC I feel they are stronger than Vanguard.

DC is a unit no other army has an equivalent. No other unit in the game has as many special rules built in that work together so well in close combat. You only need five really and that is a fantastic deal pointswise.

I don't see how anyone can knock someone for fielding Corbs in a landraider. It extends the FC bubble and is very reliable to say the least.

BA are a tactical army now.

G

@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

To calculate DC, I count them at 30 pts, as GW used in the DC entry for additional models. In that respect, the other stuff seems priced very fairly.

Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

I don't see how anyone can knock someone for fielding Corbs in a landraider. It extends the FC bubble and is very reliable to say the least.

G

Because that's the only effective way of delivering him; it's not because you can do, but because you must do it. Everything else I stated was either very fragile or unreliable (relying on a dice roll). His power is great, but his movement cripples it. If taking a LR is the ONLY way of effectively using him, then there's a problem there, especially since BA are supposed to move so quickly; might as well make his points 350, give him a land raider, and be done with it. The only reason why he doesn't have a JP is that he isn't currently modeled with one.

@JHDD I look at the chance of getting the lost due to casualty removal, and the opportunity to kill my own models (a 37 pt loss) as overriding the possibility of killing 1-2 enemies that will hopefully be worth the same as my forces.

DC can be calculated differently, depending on the unit. Very true, you could buy them at 30pts outright, but you get one free if you take a terminator squad (the only reason to take them now), 15-25pts if you take a VAS or about 30-40pts if you take a Tactical Squad (Depending on how you calculate the the vet sgt in all cases).

Corbs doesn't have to mounted in a landraider but is the safest place to put him. I run him in an LRC along with two Baals and they work great together with all the mobile shooting they can deliver. It's insane. Toss in a unit of VAS or assault terminators and you have a very effective delivery system. BTW seeing that the LRC has drag launchers makes the assault terminators even more viable. Others have put Corbs in a pod or rhino and it works well too. A pod wall cuts off LOS allows jump infantry to come in behind it then the next turn they jump over within range of Corbs for the FC bonus. If you are running a mechanized army then the rhino can work well too with OCE, cover saves and the smoke launchers. Don't forget that Corbs comes with an exsanguinator too which is very helpllful keeping those expensive BA Marines alive. You just have shield Corbs' rhino with other tanks.

A lot of BT players are using Crusaders to deliver their terminators into assault. Is that a problem. Really I think not. What's good for the goose is good for the gander so they say.

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

To calculate DC, I count them at 30 pts, as GW used in the DC entry for additional models. In that respect, the other stuff seems priced very fairly.

Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

Not really meaning to derail this thread (OK, not too much)...

What don't you really like about the new SM Codex?

Because that's the only effective way of delivering him; it's not because you can do, but because you must do it. Everything else I stated was either very fragile or unreliable (relying on a dice roll). His power is great, but his movement cripples it. If taking a LR is the ONLY way of effectively using him, then there's a problem there, especially since BA are supposed to move so quickly; might as well make his points 350, give him a land raider, and be done with it. The only reason why he doesn't have a JP is that he isn't currently modeled with one.

You argument makes no sence. Land Raider may be the best way, but not the only way. You could have him ride in any transport with the proper squad to run with him (like VAS, Honor Guard, Death Company, etc.). Wow, you have to take units in conjunction with others as part of an overall strategy? Crazy!


In fact, I would hate if he got a Jump Pack. He isn't an assault monster, he is a support unit. He is best to be able to get close to the lines, but not directly into them. Best way to get any character like that in a position where he is needed is in a transport.

DC can be calculated differently, depending on the unit. Very true, you could buy them at 30pts outright, but you get one free if you take a terminator squad (the only reason to take them now), 15-25pts if you take a VAS or about 30-40pts if you take a Tactical Squad (Depending on how you calculate the the vet sgt in all cases).

Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

Mahu wrote:

I forgot to mention both the BA rhinos and Baal predator both have over charged engines.

Which makes our Rhinos better.

While I'm not one who's crying for a new BA Codex, I'd like to ask anyone who thinks the current one doesn't have some serious problems how many Access Points and Fire Points a Blood Angels Rhino (or for that matter, Land Raider) has...

Vale,

JohnS

if you want to play that way then my BA can stay in their pods after they arrive.

G

Mahu wrote:
You argument makes no sence. Land Raider may be the best way, but not the only way. You could have him ride in any transport with the proper squad to run with him (like VAS, Honor Guard, Death Company, etc.). Wow, you have to take units in conjunction with others as part of an overall strategy? Crazy!

In fact, I would hate if he got a Jump Pack. He isn't an assault monster, he is a support unit. He is best to be able to get close to the lines, but not directly into them. Best way to get any character like that in a position where he is needed is in a transport.

Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

I get that you have to use units together. DUH. The strongest armies are the ones that have units that support each other. You are missing the point. All other transport choices are either fragile (AR11), or unreliable (you HOPE your DP will show up, but you can't rely on a random dice roll for sound strategy). The forces inside the rhino or DP is understrengthed due to the oh-so-wonderful combat squad garbage. Under sized units do not do well as support. Then again I've already stated this in a previous post. I've never stated he's a hand-to-hand moster, and we both view his support roll the same way, it's just too hard to use him without the biggest vehicle around. You could always detach him from the unit before they assault and that would settle your issues with him in combat.

Even with a bonus, it's the 5 man squad that cripples terminators effectiveness.

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Overall, I really like the current BA Codex, much more than the SM one.

What don't you really like about the new SM Codex?

I dislike that the SM Codex only really gives options to field units of Bolter Marines and Artillery, and only really has 1 Troops choice (10-man Tac squad with Transport). Bolter Marines are kind of boring. I have plenty of Guard, so I don't need SM to field Artillery. Meanwhile, the other options seem awfully pricey and ineffective. So the SM book just isn't that interesting to me. It's feels much too vanilla to be my primary army.

That said, I'll probably configure my SM to be 1500 pts, featuring C: SM-specific stuff like MotF, Sternguard, Scouts as Troops, and so on.

BA, OTOH, are far more interesting to me. I like infantry-based SM, Jump Pack Troops, things like DC. So it's a better match for what I like to field.

Mahu wrote:Getting a Free DC with our Terminators makes our Terminators, technically, the cheapest loyalist terminators available.

Yup. If we didn't get raped on the plastic models, I might field BA Termies.

who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

I get that you have to use units together. DUH. The strongest armies are the ones that have units that support each other. You are missing the point. All other transport choices are either fragile (AR11), or unreliable (you HOPE your DP will show up, but you can't rely on a random dice roll for sound strategy).

When was the last time you actually used Rhinos, especially in multiples? My experiences have been a reliable two turns out of the tank. With overcharged engines, they get where they need to be much faster then the standard ones. Two turns is all I need to get where I need to be. If you can't use multiple tanks in conjunction with each other to set up a turn two or three charge, there is something wrong with your strategy.

Even if the Rhino is destroyed, they still have to stop the squad. Very few, if any, armies have the fire power to pop a Rhino then destroy all the passengers in a shooting phase.

The forces inside the rhino or DP is understrengthed due to the oh-so-wonderful combat squad garbage. Under sized units do not do well as support. Then again I've already stated this in a previous post.

Did you not look at the units I mentioned that can ride with him? VAS and Death Company are variable squad sizes, I can take a unit of nine of them with Corbulo in a Rhino and that would be effective enough. Combat Squads are a great rule and is only really restrictive to the Tactical Squad, which shouldn't be a front line unit anyways. Tactical Squads are best if held back and move in to capture objectives around turn 4. You don't really need characters to ride with them. Like GBF says, its best to keep them 10-men anyways.

I've never stated he's a hand-to-hand moster, and we both view his support roll the same way, it's just too hard to use him without the biggest vehicle around. You could always detach him from the unit before they assault and that would settle your issues with him in combat.

I have never had a problem with him getting into CC if the unit he has enough teeth. Like I said I prefer Death Company and a Chaplian to ride with him, very few units can survive a charge from that (especially a FC Chaplain).

Even with a bonus, it's the 5 man squad that cripples terminators effectiveness.

5 man isn't too bad. But we can still take a Drop Pod, which C:SM Terminators can't. Even though our Drop Pods are overpriced, in the hands of a Terminator unit, minus the DC cost, it's still pretty cost effective.

My ultimate point is to say this. Is the Blood Angels list perfect? No, but it is still pretty effective, has plenty of flavor, and is unique to the tens of thousands of oter Marine players you may face. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other Red Codex Marine Chapters you can play.

I am with Mahu. And red is such a lovely colour too.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

10 man squad + Corbulo = 11. Can't do that with a rhino/DP w/o splitting the squad.

Mahu wrote:
When was the last time you actually used Rhinos, especially in multiples?

Every game I play. 2-3 at least. They make excellent moving walls to keep the JP troops safe from ground fire. However every time there's a leader of any sort in them, that vehicle ends up on fire or worse.

And please, don't do the "don't like it, leave" part. Your post had some nice points up till that. Yes, the BA have some great fluff units, yes the background is good (it's what drew me to them in the first place) and YES, some of it can be standardized with weapon options/unit organization in the new SM codex.

Moopy wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:who says everyone who plays BA is going to split their units into combat squads? I always run full 10 man squads.

The rhino is viable as a transport for Corbs if you run a mechanized list. I have already pointed out why.

G

10 man squad + Corbulo = 11. Can't do that with a rhino/DP w/o splitting the squad.

DC, VAS anyone? Maybe when the codex is released Corbs will have straps so jump infantry can carry him around.

G

I find it a bit sad that BA is the only chapter (not counting BT) that can´t give their Librarian a JP.
A major miss if you ask me.

Perhaps the straps GBF was talking about will work


//Edge

Librarian can use Psyker power to count as Jump Infantry.

Honestly, I've been rebuilding my BA in the last month from their former mish-mashed 3rd BA/4thSM codex mess to a new polished force under the PDF rules and really don't have any problem with it... and I don't plan on having to change to a new 'Dex any time soon.

I wasn't saying there was a problem with one...I was just surprised after learning that the codex came out of a WD. Up through 3rd edition (I skipped 4th) there was also a codex and the BA were a big part of 40k.

But some of the arguments do makes sense. I think the codex is definitely effective, but it is just surprising that there isn't a real codex with fulff and unique lists within the chapter etc.

I am surprised at all the responses though...it is interesting..keep on...lol

Do any BA players have lists they've posted on dakka? If so could you link to them? Thanks

FWIW, my BA list is going to be something like this:

HQ
- Lemartes
- Captain w/ JP & Claws

Elite
- DC
- VAS w/ Claws & Flamers
- VAS w/ Claws & Flamers

Troops
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- AS w/ PF & pistols
- Tacs w/ Las, Plas in Razor
- Tacs w/ Las, Plas in Razor

Fast
- Landspeeder
- Landspeeder

Heavy
- Devastators w/ PCs
- Devastators w/ MLs
- Devastators w/ HBs

And please, don't do the "don't like it, leave" part. Your post had some nice points up till that. Yes, the BA have some great fluff units, yes the background is good (it's what drew me to them in the first place, and YES, some of it can be standardized with weapon options/unit organization in the new SM codex.

Fair Enough.

This is my current list, I like Mechanized Armies:

-HQ-

Corbulo = 100

Chaplain w/ Meltabombs = 105

-Elites-

8 Death Company (3 Free) = 150

Terminator Squad w/ Heavy Flamer, Chainfist
in Drop Pod = 260

Dreadnought w/ Multimelta, Heavy Flamer = 130

-Troops-

10-man Tactical Squad w/ Flamer, Sergent w/ Powerfist, Meltabombs
in Rhino = 265

10-man Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Sergent w/ Power Weapon, Meltabombs
in Rhino = 260

-Fast Attack-

Attack Bike w/ Multimelta = 50

Attack Bike w/ Multimelta = 50

-Heavy-

Vindicator w/ Storm Bolter = 130

Land Raider Crusader w/ Storm Bolter = 255

Total = 1750

Mahu, your list seems like it's full of strong units which I like, but do you ever have problems only having two troops? Does putting the terminators in the drop pod work well? I get kind of nervous letting infantry stand in front of the enemy to take a round of shooting. Then again, if any unit in 40k could take it, it'd probably be the terminators (second to maybe a wraithlord or HT).

John, I really like your list. I might try and run my baal predator instead of one of the dev squad just to change it up a bit but I like infantry a lot. I like not having to pay anything for the DC except Jump Packs.

This is what I ran for Ard Boyz

Dante
Lemartes

DC w/jump packs
VAS w/Power Fist, meltas

AS w/PF
AS w/PF
AS w/PF
Tac Squad w/PC

Attack Bike w/multimelta
Attack Bike w/multimelta
Attack Bike w/multimelta

Baal Predator w/HB sponsons
Baal Predator w/HB sponsons
Dev Squad w/3 PC

With the metagame at my store I am thinking of changing it up some with Land Raiders but I don't feel like painting any more BA for a while!

JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius, but it requires a psychic test, which can be failed, and if he is joined with a squad of AS or VAS he becomes a wildcard
if it´s not sure that he will jump with the rest of them.


//Edge

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: I'd rather field Tacs & AS as Troops than Scouts, along with VAS over Scouts & HG as Elites. Basically, GW doesn't want SM to field Scouts - they want SM to field Marines. So that's fine.

As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

How do you mean, 2-shot weapon? If you mean because you only get to shoot it once or twice in a game, ok. If you mean because you don't move and double-tap it, you can't do that anymore.

Yeah it´s a shame that Plasma Pistols are technically Assault 1 weapons now.
An AS squad with 3 PPs used to be a terrifying sight...


//Edge

Commisar I like your list overall. How does Dante do in 5e? I bet running Lemartes and Dante each with their retinues can bring a hurt to just about any enemy.

Devastators seem to be a pretty common choice. Is this due to the fact that they give a DC? I don't think I own any painted BA with any heavy weapons other than missile launchers that came with the boxes. Maybe this would be a wise investment?

Mahu, your list seems like it's full of strong units which I like, but do you ever have problems only having two troops? Does putting the terminators in the drop pod work well? I get kind of nervous letting infantry stand in front of the enemy to take a round of shooting. Then again, if any unit in 40k could take it, it'd probably be the terminators (second to maybe a wraithlord or HT).

The Tactical Squads are reserve units. Essentially, they take a back seat till they are needed to grab an objective or grab my own.

I haven't had that much experience with the Terminators in a Drop Pod yet. I have been running into to many issues with Deepstrike and the lack of homers in the list lead me down that path.

My list is built on a bunch of good strong units getting into the enemies face, while the troops run around and grab objectives.

There is a strong power list for BA that utilizes Dante and Corbs. I have seen it rip the sh*t out of other top tiered lists such as Lash/Oblit spam and Orkish hordes.

G

OnTheEdge wrote:JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius, but it requires a psychic test, which can be failed, and if he is joined with a squad of AS or VAS he becomes a wildcard
if it´s not sure that he will jump with the rest of them.

//Edge

Also, once you use Wings to get him into CC, his force sword is only useful as a power weapon for that turn. I prefer librarians with a JP, so killing the usefulness of the one shot kill for MC's and IC's just to get him across the board pretty much nixed him as an HQ for me now. For an army that can take assault marines as troops, the choice to replace it with WOS as your only option seems like an odd choice. Maybe they all just have bad backs and can't support the extra weight.

Any Ld9 Librarian is a joke. BA have the best Librarian in the game when it comes to close combat.

G

Drummerboy wrote:John, I really like your list. I might try and run my baal predator instead of one of the dev squad just to change it up a bit but I like infantry a lot. I like not having to pay anything for the DC except Jump Packs.

Cool. I'll have swap-outs, too, but this is my primary list of models. Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs.
____

OnTheEdge wrote:JohnDD; Yeah i know, Wings of Sanguinius,

Yeah. It's why my Jump BA won't field a Librarian, either. But as I think the "best" force is Captain & Chaplain, and I only have 2 HQ slots, it's no great loss.

The Movement rules simply mean that, if he fails the test, he leaves the unit.
____

Lormax wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As a 2-shot weapon, a Plasma Pistol killing a couple 15+ pt Marines isn't unfairly priced, although I would prefer if they were only +10 pts each.

How do you mean, 2-shot weapon? If you mean because you only get to shoot it once or twice in a game, ok.

Exactly. You shoot it two times (1 shot each) over the course of a game. Each shot generally kills a Marine (or whatever), so it's not horrible at 15 pts - it's points neutral.
____

Drummerboy wrote:Devastators seem to be a pretty common choice. Is this due to the fact that they give a DC?

I don't think I own any painted BA with any heavy weapons other than missile launchers that came with the boxes. Maybe this would be a wise investment?

Yes.

Plasma Cannons rock. 'Nuff said!

"Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs."

DC are free for termies. This is why termies were so popular for DC when the new rules were first released.

G

Ooof... your lists must be miserable if you're paying for DC twice... the point of DC is that they come as part of the package, and EXTRA DC over the free ones are 30 pts +5 for Jump Packs... you DO have to buy everyone's JPs tho.

Fine fine since all the cool kids are posting their lists.

HQ:
Dante

Elite
6 DC JP

Troops
10 man Tac. Melta, PF Rhino w/EA
10 man Tac. Flamer, PW Rhino w/EA
10 AS PF
5 man Tac Razorback TLLC
5 man Tac Razorback TLLC

Fast
2 Land Speeder w/ASSC

Heavy
Baal HB EA

Took 4th in 1st Hard Boyz round 2007. Had to work this year so I didn't try out at the 2008 : /

The DC have no leaders so they run at the enemy like crazy men. I'm absolutely fine with this DC are the biggest "boogiemen" in the game, and people spend a lot of fire power against them. Too much firepower, and that lets everything else get too close.

I have won three RTTs with my new BA now that 5e is in place. They are a lot stronger now.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:"Also, you pay the full 30 pts for each DC model when you buy Termies, VAS, AS, or Tacs."

DC are free for termies. This is why termies were so popular for DC when the new rules were first released.

The way I see it, DC are 30 pts for Termies, but BA pay a discounted (and fair) 34 pts per Termie because Termies just aren't as awesomely cool as VAS.

____

Prometheum5 wrote:Ooof... your lists must be miserable if you're paying for DC twice... the point of DC is that they come as part of the package, and EXTRA DC over the free ones are 30 pts +5 for Jump Packs... you DO have to buy everyone's JPs tho.

You can look at it either way. I choose to look as Termies as 5x 34-pt Termies with a mandatory 30-pt DC model.

Nice CYA there John. Nice.

G

@BGF, do you really think Termies are worth 40+ pts each in 5E?

You can look at it either way. I choose to look as Termies as 5x 34-pt Termies with a mandatory 30-pt DC model.


OK, that I can understand... just making sure you aren't paying 30 points extra for every DC in your list.

okay thanks!

: )

John, how many models are in each of your squads, I didn't run the numbers or anything, but it seems like that would get expensive. Which ones (if any) are maxed out. I'm not wanting to copy your list or anything ( I don't have that many Jump Packs) but I'm just trying to get an idea of how many it takes to get across the field with enough left to do significant amounts of damage.

Thanks

Oh, I'm doing my BA as min-max MSU, so these are largely 5-man squads. *Except* the DC, which I want to be large.

The list I gave is more of a models collection than an actual list per se. That is, I build a particular list out of those models. As this is an assault force, in any given list, I typically have the bulk of the army as Jump Pack / Transport. I don't play them much (lately, I am enjoying playing IG Apocalypse), so this may not be the optimal amount.

Okay I was just making sure I could still use a calculator. Thanks for all the replies...they give some ideas as to how the BA can be used effectively in both tournament and fun games.

Kind of like how my Templars do the same thing!

Green Blow Fly wrote:There is a strong power list for BA that utilizes Dante and Corbs. I have seen it rip the sh*t out of other top tiered lists such as Lash/Oblit spam and Orkish hordes.

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:@BGF, do you really think Termies are worth 40+ pts each in 5E?

Not for BA when there are better choices for elites.

G

Looks like this is a better place to ask these questions. I don't see them specifically answered in the thread so far (that is, the reason why) (Originally posted in List Discussion Sub-forum)
---------------------------------------

Hello, do we have any intelligence (aka - rumors) as to if the PDF BA "codex" is all we are going to get for 5th ed. Blood Angels?

Also, I have a few questions (as in, why it was done this way). Take it as whining if you like, it just seems odd to me that this list is setup this way. I know BA are supposed to be Non-Codex and hence "different". But that doesn't explain the reasoning behind these particular decisions. If indeed they were intentional.

Elites BA's seem to be elite "slot starved" vs. CodexM
1. Scouts count as elites (seems strange, scouts are green "in-training" Marines.
2. Terminators are only available in 5 man squads. Codex can have anywhere from 5-10. Seems odd that other chapters can deploy 30 Terminators in a standard force list. BA can only do 15 (let alone if one desires scouts).

Scouts:
2. Why don't BA scouts have the option for camo cloaks or scout bikes?

The reason BA Scouts are Elites is that in their fluff, BA Scouts are nasty and trained extra.

Given that the BA Codex PDF is free, I'm OK with it. If/when GW gets around to cutting a special sprue for BA, BA will then get a proper, printed Codex.

BTW, I suspect SW will get a printed Codex sooner, precisely because SW would have a dedicated, recut bitz sprue.

Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

BA Scouts predate camo cloaks.


The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

Who can say that BA terminators should be only able to field five per squad? There is absolutely no fluff to justify this restriction. Ultramarines can take 10 with two heavy weapons. Ultramarines' 1st company was destroyed by a Tyranid invasion on their home world. Nothing of the sort ever happened to the Blood Angels. I agree that VAS are the more fluffy choice but to be honest I rarely use them because you need to be able to field at least three troop choices to be competitive in 5e. People knock our assault squads because they are limited to plasma pistols which cost 15 points apiece... but they are a troop choice and you can trade their jump packs for a rhino which comes with OCE. The plasma pistols are expensive but they give the unit a big edge when they shoot prior to charging against uber cc enemy units.

No one I know takes scouts in their BA lists who play competitively.

G

What does VAS mean?

--Nevermind--

JohnHwangDD wrote:Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

I'm an old Rogue Trader player, recently come back to the game. This is a recent (well, recent to me anyway) change. Of course back then we didn't have such restrictive unit composition restrictions. (And we had to walk up hill both ways and we liked it). I only recently bought any assault troops

BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

They are still the BA's Brothers in training. Just doesn't seem right that they are classified as "elite" then when they are promoted to a line company the become "troops". Of course, I realize that these designations are game constructs. But it does break ranks with all the other codexes I recall (in which elite means... elite)

BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

But not for the "traditional" Ultramarines?

BA Scouts predate camo cloaks.

One would think they'd update the PDF to add things like this option then.
But, at least from a House Rules perspective it shouldn't unbalance the game by letting BA Scouts buy them for 3pts/ea. just like the other Marines, no?

The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

But there is no reason to do this. Why limit flexibility so? Plus in the background, Even in the BA 1st company consists of 10 squds of 10 Marines. Not being able to field them as such seems silly to me.

At any rate, these are suppositions we are making. I was really interested in discovering if there was a deliberate careful plan behind this list as written, or if these were just tossed together and/or not evolved to keep pace with the changing life and times of the Codex:SM

Green Blow Fly wrote:I agree that VAS are the more fluffy choice but to be honest I rarely use them because you need to be able to field at least three troop choices to be competitive in 5e....

...No one I know takes scouts in their BA lists who play competitively.

I can see why people would not take scouts. With only 3 elite slots, and the fact that I have several Dreadnaughts and Terminator squads painted... I won't. (Especially without Homing beacons... which would dovetail nicely with the fore mentioned Terminators, which of course I can't get enough of on the board...) I was having some troubles getting enough "troop" units into the field, when my Ork opponent pointed out (while browsing my new SM Codex, which I had largely ignored due to there being no BA list in it) that scouts are now troops. Hooray I said. I promptly dug into my To Be Done shelf and opened up two boxes of scouts. Only when I was looking at the BA Codex later did I notice that it wasn't so.

I like my Terminators. I don't want to whine, but (I will), why must I choose between scouts and terminators? Further, why must I only be allowed to field half the Terminators (or 1/3rd as many scouts) as other Marine players? Seems... weird. It can't be a game balance issue as BA Terminators are identical to Codex Terminators. (Aside from the extra points for the Death Company "missing but bonus man").

As I think about sillyness why in the world a Terminator (or BA Scout for that matter) can't capture and hold objectives, makes um... little sense. This of course transcends this discussion, and is a "problem" with the game in general. But, I digress...

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Getting back, BA are "different", and that's OK. GW never really goes into the rationale, but it's not hard to figure out that BA have Jump Pack assault force as their special schtick.

I'm an old Rogue Trader player, recently come back to the game. This is a recent (well, recent to me anyway) change. Of course back then we didn't have such restrictive unit composition restrictions.

True. BA were basically Codex in 2E, and didn't start to differ until 3E. In 5E, the full extent of the variance is now clear.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:BA "Scouts" are Elite because they are full-fledged WS4 BS4 Marines in Scout Armour who can Infiltrate and Scout.

They are still the BA's Brothers in training.

If they were "in training", they'd be WS3 BS3 like the Ultra's Scouts. I look at these as full-Marines in scout armor, because their stats are full Marine aside from the armor. And they gain a couple USRs on top of that. From a practical standpoint, with their bonus rules, they actually *are* more Elite than Tacticals.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:BA Termies are 5-man squads because that is the traditional squad size. Obviously, BA Veterans prefer JPs over TDA.

But not for the "traditional" Ultramarines?

BA Veterans operate as Combat Squads, even in Termie armor. It's also why HG are only 5 men.

Mettius wrote:One would think they'd update the PDF to add things like this option then.
But, at least from a House Rules perspective it shouldn't unbalance the game by letting BA Scouts buy them for 3pts/ea. just like the other Marines, no?

GW seems not to want to revisit Codices, so probably not. Perhaps BA don't use camo from a Doctrinal standpoint, again, artificial distinction to separate BA from SM.

Mettius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The main effect of this is to steer BA towards VAS for Elites, which is more thematic.

But there is no reason to do this. Why limit flexibility so? Plus in the background, Even in the BA 1st company consists of 10 squds of 10 Marines. Not being able to field them as such seems silly to me.

I was really interested in discovering if there was a deliberate careful plan behind this list as written, or if these were just tossed together and/or not evolved to keep place with the changing life and times of the Codex:SM

There probably was, but GW isn't going to spoon feed it out. The only real oddity is that SM can take Bikers as Troops for WS, rather than forcing White Scars to play as Ravenwing. Which is wierd, because Raven Guard play as BA...
____

Mettius wrote:I can see why people would not take scouts. With only 3 elite slots, and the fact that I have several Dreadnaughts and Terminator squads painted... I won't.

I like my Terminators. I don't want to whine, but (I will), why must I choose between scouts and terminators? Further, why must I only be allowed to field half the Terminators (or 1/3rd as many scouts) as other Marine players?

And that is why BA aren't the same as DA or Ultras. BA can field lots of Assault, but fewer Termies than DA or Scouts from Ultras. It's an artificial distinction so that non-Codex Marines really are different from Codex: Space Marines.

it's getting deep in here.

G

I don't buy that BA scouts are full fledged Marines in lighter armor. Where does it state that in the fluff? Basically it was a bad decision by JJ. Ultramarine scouts also have special rules and access to better weapons plus a legendary squad leader. Look at Blood Claws... BS3/WS3... they are also a troop choice. Only wolf scouts rank the true status of elite.

G

No, they're not really "elite" in the literal sense of the word. The designers just put them in that slot so that, instead of being able to play a 10th Company army, you can play an 8th Company army. It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines." As far as points values (and, in the case of scouts, statlines) being different between the two codices, here's my take: the game is constantly evolving. The design team learned a lot from the DA and BA codices, and incorporated those lessons into the new SM Codex. Does that mean that the SM Codex is better? Of course it does. Does that make the overall game better? Of course.

Pariah Press wrote:It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines."

The setting (background) ensures this for me. But Black Rage/Red Thirst, and Death Company assures this. There is no need to go mucking about with the rest of the list (in my humble opinion). I would be happier if this list referenced the SM Codex (like it did in the old printed BA codex) so that when the main codex was updated it would be by default.

Pariah Press wrote:As far as points values (and, in the case of scouts, statlines) being different between the two codices, here's my take: the game is constantly evolving. The design team learned a lot from the DA and BA codices, and incorporated those lessons into the new SM Codex. Does that mean that the SM Codex is better? Of course it does. Does that make the overall game better? Of course.

Better or worse isn't really my issue. It is the inconsistencies (BA Squads are cookie cutter 5 or 5/10 man squads. I like the flexibility of 5-10, it makes point balancing easier, and better reflects the game background (Squads are 10 men at full strength).
I understand a desire to make BA different from Codex Marines. I don't mind flavor. I just don't like being shoehorned. When they introduced the Death Company, I was fine with that. That was flavor. It stripped men out of your regular squads, but this actually "felt right". As in it fit the background. Men on the eve of battle lost it and had to be cordened off in the Death Company. Now they are just extra troops.

I suppose I shouldn't complain to much, I don't play tournaments (I don't like what that seems to bring out in most people), all I have to do is convince my friends and I can have the BA list as I think it should be. OTOH, if I just play under Apocalypse rules, all of my issues with force organization are moot.

Mettius wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:It's just something to make the different SM armies distinct, so that Blood Angels aren't just "Red Marines."

The setting (background) ensures this for me. But Black Rage/Red Thirst, and Death Company assures this. There is no need to go mucking about with the rest of the list (in my humble opinion). I would be happier if this list referenced the SM Codex (like it did in the old printed BA codex) so that when the main codex was updated it would be by default.

Well, that's perfectly understandable. The point of making the BA Codex so different is, IMO, because of the sheer prevalence of Space Marine armies. GW wants to introduce a variety of play styles so that there is some variety in these Marine armies.

As far as 5,10 vs. 5-10 goes, I'm sure that the next edition of the BA Codex will fix this. Things are always evolving.

I'd *much* rather have 5 or 10 (with more options at the 5-man level ) in lieu of "must have 10 to take any Heavy or Special weapons".

I think that the 5-man AS building block makes BA much stronger than the 10-man Tactical building block in SM, and would prefer not to see any change here.

On the other hand, I hate, with a blinding passion, the complete inflexibility of combat squads.

I love complete inflexibility. Of course, I do play Ultramarines...

@Moopy: quite frankly, I just wouldn't expect things to go back to the flexibility of 3E/4E that allowed massed min-max 6-man Las/Plas squads. Fluff-wise, that was an abomination that the players abused, so it had to be taken away.

So we are left with 2 different kinds of inflexibility that you can choose between:

Blood Angels
- traditional 5 or 10 man squads
- flexible 5-man and 10-man options

Space Marines
- flexible 5 to 10 man squads
- traditional 10-man options

Blood Angels is more like 2E, and is better for the way I want to play, so I prefer the BA approach.

Just be thankful that GW doesn't go back to a pure 2E approach:

Marines
- fixed 10 man squads
- traditional 10-man options
- option to split into Combat Squads separating Heavy & Special.

Plus: Roll 2D6 + 1D12 + 1D20 + 8 for armour penetration.

Yeah, one of the under appreciated bonuses of DA/BA is the ability to take five man squads with a special. I mean, while Codex Marines can take an 8 man squad, they can't really do anything with it.

They can have their Sergeant with Power Fist roll about in a Rhino...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Moopy: quite frankly, I just wouldn't expect things to go back to the flexibility of 3E/4E that allowed massed min-max 6-man Las/Plas squads. Fluff-wise, that was an abomination that the players abused, so it had to be taken away.

I'm with you 100% little 5-6 man las/plas squads were a cheap exploit that showed lazy designing from the GW staff; an exploit that was abused to high heavens. Good riddance. In the same token I'm pleased to see that BA don't get Furious Charge for "free" anymore, which was a huge point of contention between players- I had games turn sour before the dice were thrown because of it. Not fun.

I *DO* feel that they've now swung too far in the opposite direction. Largely inflexible building units and bare bones upgrades, combined with a huge removal of fluff. Going from everyone having furious charge, to almost NOBODY having it (or horribly frustrating to get it), no SHP, etc made no sense, and was heavy handed.

I'm hoping the next codex finds a new middle ground that will allow the players to flex more creativity without being abusive in power.

Fortunately (?), BA are a WD Codex, so things aren't graven in stone. I have hopes that BA will continue to have the option to play MSA Assault armies, because I'm getting really sick of rebuilding my Marines...

JohnHwangDD - it's funny you brought up 2E, that's when I first started (8 years old). It's crazy to think about how much the game has changed. I remember 1 character could easily take out an entire army with things like displacement fields, combat drugs...etc. lol. Not to mentions psychic powers

Yeah, 2E was just crazy. I liked the whole template / marker phase. That was pretty funny.