Announcement

The Topps Company announced today that WizKids will immediately cease operations and discontinue its product lines.

Scott Silverstein, CEO of Topps, said “This was an extremely difficult decision. While the company will still actively pursue gaming initiatives, we feel it is necessary to align our efforts more closely with Topps current sports and entertainment offerings which are being developed within our New York office.”

Upon notifying our partners, Topps will immediately pursue strategic alternatives so that viable brands and properties, including HeroClix, can continue without noticeable disruption. To that end, WizKids will continue supporting Buy it By the Brick redemptions for Arkham Asylum, and the December Organized Play events for HeroClix.

For consumer announcements, please refer to www.wizkidsgames.com over the coming days for further information.

wow, everything is closing and going out of business.

maybe now I can get some zombie figs cheap! as we all know not too many people hold on to stuff for a game that isnt supported any more. To bad, over all the figs were not bad and had tons of uses. Sign of the times I guess

if its happening now, It more likely a sign of very bad times over a long period.

The current market troubles likely has little to do with it.

Wizkids fans have been fearing this day ever since Topps bought Wizkids. It's been an expected move.

As with any of these things, the models and rules will still work once the company has gone. There just won't be any new series.

Rush out now and buy up all you can find of the ones you want.

Huh... I haven't followed Wizkids since the first few expansions of Mech Warrior, but I gave them alot of money back in the day... The original Mage Knight is what got me into miniature wargaming. I've got alot of models from that era.

that sucks.. hopefully some other company will pick them up or maybe they can get going on their own or something like that

always a sad day when any gaming store/company closes.

So heroclix is to be continued by the looks of it along with some other viable games.

I'd imagine that the only thing that would change for those is the company logo on the pack.

Marvel heroclix was the only one I got into, and only the first release at that.

Related to this is an announcement from Catalyst Game Labs that states the Wizkidz closing should have no effect upon the ClassicBattleTech line, despite Wizkidz owning the lisence.

BYE

That sucks. I enjoyed Pirates.

I'm sure this is either Games Workshop's fault, If you were trying to make a political joke, you didn't indicate it. Keep all political discussion to the OT Forum. And keep it classy, Hobbs. - Iorek

I only got into Heroclix for the minis. The rules just aren't my cup of tea.

Sucks to be them, but I don't think I'll miss them much

They took active steps to destroy the "speculator" market (reissuing rare/exclusive items so they become common) while designing the games to be "collectable" at the same time. o.O Then they put "dossiers" into the package that allows people to identify the "rare" items and the rest sit unbought on the shelves with crushed packaging. They so loved the dossiers that rather than remove them, they redesigned the packaging, and put blanks in some (but not all) packages, all of which cost more money than the simple solution and in the end didn't really solve the problem.

Then there's the fact that bad game balance and scenario design made it hard to justify continued purchases. Seriously, if you think GW rules + faq implementation are bad, let me tell you they never reached the FUBAR that Mechwarrior did.

They way they ran their properties into the ground, the only suprise is that it took this long for them to go belly up.

its sad to see them go, but normal after a buyout

fact is, topps will continue to produce brands that have positive cashflow, or liscences that have profit potential

NaZ

JohnHwangDD wrote:That sucks. I enjoyed Pirates.

Unfortunately the operative word there is "enjoyed"...

Yeah I really wished that it would continue...it was eventually going to happen, but it just seems so sudden.

Knock them as much as you want but they really introduced me to miniature gaming and things of that sort.

Probably only Heroclix will continue, and it will be mauled.

Hopefully the abomination that is clickie-tech goes away.

I wonder if they'll made Dark Age non-canon and avoid going their with the CBT storyline. Granted, it's only 3076 in CBT, so we're a long way from 3130, but it'll be interesting to see what they decided to change.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Related to this is an announcement from Catalyst Game Labs that states the Wizkidz closing should have no effect upon the ClassicBattleTech line, despite Wizkidz owning the lisence.

BYE

That's a relief. I mean, not that I actually PLAY Battletech, but it's comforting to see it on the shelf at the gaming store.

I think Wizards really getting into the prepainted minis business killed them. They didn't have the same market that GW, Privateer and the other hobby game companies command so they had to go mono a mono with Wizards of the Coast which is like a bound and gagged Clanrat Slave going up against Archaon mounted on a Warlord Titan.

Eldramesha wrote:which is like a bound and gagged Clanrat Slave going up against Archaon mounted on a Warlord Titan.

the image of this had me laughing for several minutes. kudos

Haloclix! NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Game was too easy anyway. An all-Elites group led by the Arbiter whipped Spartan teams real good. And if you could whip Spartan teams, you could whip anything.

Eldramesha wrote:I think Wizards really getting into the prepainted minis business killed them.

I don't think it did.

Mageknight, Mechwarrior and Heroclix were all huge... for a time.

What killed them was (in my opinion, which is completely lacking in any actual factual data) keeping those three titles going well past the time they should have been put out to pasture instead of developing the next big thing.

Collectible games generally have a limited life. As good as a game may be, sooner or later people just lose interest.

Eldramesha wrote:I think Wizards really getting into the prepainted minis business killed them. They didn't have the same market that GW, Privateer and the other hobby game companies command so they had to go mono a mono with Wizards of the Coast which is like a bound and gagged Clanrat Slave going up against Archaon mounted on a Warlord Titan.

If it is possible, try and dig up some Wizkids articles prior to the release of Star Wars Minis. Mechwarrior was referred to as the #1 Sci-Fi Collectible Minatures game. This fact was true because for awhile it was the only sci-fi collectible miniatures game....

Breotan wrote:They took active steps to destroy the "speculator" market (reissuing rare/exclusive items so they become common) while designing the games to be "collectable" at the same time. o.O Then they put "dossiers" into the package that allows people to identify the "rare" items and the rest sit unbought on the shelves with crushed packaging. They so loved the dossiers that rather than remove them, they redesigned the packaging, and put blanks in some (but not all) packages, all of which cost more money than the simple solution and in the end didn't really solve the problem.

Then there's the fact that bad game balance and scenario design made it hard to justify continued purchases. Seriously, if you think GW rules + faq implementation are bad, let me tell you they never reached the FUBAR that Mechwarrior did.

They way they ran their properties into the ground, the only suprise is that it took this long for them to go belly up.

Sadly I must agree sir. A lot of bad business practices exacerbated their problems.

It is sad for me to see them go though. It's what got me started gaming. I still remember my first starter set of MageKnight. Some people in my family still think that is what I go play.

The only clix I have left is my Elite Centurion from the original set, and that's only because I loved the Centurion from CBT.

It won't impact me much, but I'm sad for the clix fans.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The only clix I have left is my Elite Centurion from the original set, and that's only because I loved the Centurion from CBT.

It won't impact me much, but I'm sad for the clix fans.

HCRealms is split down the middle, chomping at each other throats over people who think the game is screwed and they should all jump ship to another game(Monsterpocalypse and WoW being the discussed options) vs diehards who want to collectively purchase the license from Topps(despite having no idea the actual running cost the game needed) and produce it themselves, with the poor, hopeful people who just want to know if they'll get the set that was in production(Hammer of Thor) when Wizkids shut down released as a last hurrah or those who have no idea what's going on caught in the middle.

NNNOOOOO!!! My only way of getting superhero miniatures now gone, what will I do?

Looks like it's someone's big chance to pickup a license for cheap and run with it.

Who wants to start a gaming company?

Yeah. It's looks real lucrative!

So, is this yet another idictment of the crappiness of Pre-Paints, or is it just another sign that Wargaming in general is in decline, thus suggesting statements that GW's woes are entirely of it's own making may not be entirely on the money?

I think it's a condemnation of the poor business model of collectible mini's games.

There's no "buy in" other than "I've purchased these, and I still haven't gotten that last one I need to complete the set/win my games". Where as I've put in hours upon hours to get my three armies painted, which if I jettison the game or fail to support it, means that I've wasted all that time. I'm more invested in it.

The higher ups at GW have always resisted adverts and such because they don't want to be a fad that explodes and dies off.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The higher ups at GW have always resisted adverts and such because they don't want to be a fad that explodes and dies off...

...again.

They were more than aware of that happening with LotR, but the risk was worth taking, as the films and assosciated hype would be advertising enough.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wonder if they'll made Dark Age non-canon and avoid going their with the CBT storyline. Granted, it's only 3076 in CBT, so we're a long way from 3130, but it'll be interesting to see what they decided to change.

BYE

The Jihad is firmly canon now, so they have painted themselves into a corner, besides Stackpole is the key official high plot writer for both the earlier and the later timelines.

I dont care for Wizkids, I do care for CBT though, and wonder where the IP will go. Battletech is a game worth investing in. Topps might continue it as a solitary brand and drop the kiddie crap.

skyth wrote:Hopefully the abomination that is clickie-tech goes away.

The click tech, turnable base with stats is an incredible idea. The ability to tell exactly what's going on with any one model, at a glance, with several different stats all at the same time, and have those stats change based on actions on the battle field is a huge advance in minis. It had the potential to made 40k into a skirmish level game, using the same number of models that are used, since you could tell at a glance exactly what every model had, and what it's current status is. Nolonger would people be forced to memorize complex lists of stats, unit abilities, etc, it was all right there. With click-tech bases 40K could move away from having races with all models having essentially the same stat line (or two), and give each unit it's own stats.

The overly simplified (often to the point of stupidity) rules for the various games that wizkids put out, along with their collectability, and all the screaming little kids these rules attracted ultimately doomed this one for me.

So IMHO click-tech is a bit like putting a jet engine into a Amish wagon.

Imperial wrote:NNNOOOOO!!! My only way of getting superhero miniatures now gone, what will I do?

There's always superfigs.

Oh, you mean licensed minis.

I would be extremely impressed to see a click-base miniature wargame proper... have all of a models stats on the model in such a way that they were both easy to work with and malleable as a model took damage was totally ingenious and needs to be picked up by someone else. Imagine =][=Munda with detailed malleable stats for each figure.

Didn't GW really do one of the first 'click' type bases with Adeptus Mechanicus, or Titan Legions or whatever the game was first called when it was released? I seem to recall those bases having a wheel or something that helped to keep track of void shields or weapons. That was the first time i saw that 'stats on bases' type of thing.

Too bad to hear about them going under. Pirates was neat, but i liked Rocketmen myself. Kitchy and fun.

Was just void shields that you could keep track of.

Wizkids looked like it had been floating off of heroclix sales for years. Ever since MageKnight bombed they released failure after failure and rested on the fallback of the obsessive comic community. Horrorclix was just a tragedy, mechwarrior effectively died a few months after release, Halo Clix never came close to taking off, Crimson skies was some sort of invisible phantom, etc etc.

They had two successful properties and floundered for too long trying to find a replacement when one of them died.

First FASA, then WizKids..... If you are ever involved in a company with Jordan Weisman make sure you start updating your resume the minute he decides to sell or pursue other intersts cause you'll be out of a jobsooner or later.

Two friends are losing their jobs because of this. Not fun....

Never really understood the hype about those horrible prepainted miniatures and as such it was something I didnt even considered part of my hobby.
This anoucement is bad for those who lost their jobs but to me personally nothing they produced will be missed.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think it's a condemnation of the poor business model of collectible mini's games.

OTOH, the continuing success of Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh proves that a successful business model can be built around collectible (card) gaming.

The difference being that card gaming is literally a license to print money, whereas minis have costs.

But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

This is sad news to me, not necessarily because I loved their games, but because it takes another option off the table.

I love CBT, but never quite got into MWA/AoD. However, when WizKids managed to piss off its MW fanbase by retiring sets, I was able to pick up several 'mechs for cheap (and now, I guess I can do it even cheaper), and I've had quite a few fun games with these minis using them for CBT with my friends (made an appropriately sized hexagonal grid, printed it out and taped several sheets of paper together...cut hexes out of styrofoam for hills, though that was a bit painful). Sure, not all the 'mechs were CBT canon, but at least there was a variety (we designed our 'mechs anyway and chose the ones we liked most visually) and they were already prepainted in various schemes.

I think the click-based idea had a lot of promised, but sadly was not appropriately targetted (and spurning your fanbase was perhaps the death knell for MW), and I know that prepainted minis do have a place in the hobby (heck, I own two AT-43 armies).

I just see this is as a lost opportunity. Competition in the hobby is a good thing, imho, even if you don't necessarily like the products.

Yes I know of superfigs and have a lot of them, I use them as generic superheroes or villains then slap them onto a modified clix base

Irony:

FLGS just moved 40K and fantasy night together to make room for "collectable minis night."

All the 40K guys have continued to miss the memo and are the only ones who show up on Thursday nights.

NAVARRO wrote:Never really understood the hype about those horrible prepainted miniatures and as such it was something I didnt even considered part of my hobby.
This anoucement is bad for those who lost their jobs but to me personally nothing they produced will be missed.

Are you a comic fan? That was the draw for me, figures based on comic book characters, some of whom have a huge "mythology" attached to them. And as someone who takes a ridiculously long time painting minis, Heroclix is a nice change to actually have a completely painted "Army" on the table. As well, you can get hours of games out of a something that fits into a tackle box that is less than 12" x 8". I used to dismiss Heroclix as a kids game, but once I tried it I got hooked. I am hoping someone continues to produce it, for a little while longer anyway.

pombe wrote:
Competition in the hobby is a good thing, imho, even if you don't necessarily like the products.

Well I totaly agree with that and I'm the first to try to introduce people to the not so mainstream miniatures outhere... but for the modelism hobby sake I dont see wizkids products aiming at the painters communities ... So its not even competition since its in completely diferent fields... Thats why it wont be missed... I cant define wizkids prepainted collectables part of the hobby I live.

whoadirty wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Never really understood the hype about those horrible prepainted miniatures and as such it was something I didnt even considered part of my hobby.
This anoucement is bad for those who lost their jobs but to me personally nothing they produced will be missed.

Are you a comic fan? That was the draw for me, figures based on comic book characters, some of whom have a huge "mythology" attached to them. And as someone who takes a ridiculously long time painting minis, Heroclix is a nice change to actually have a completely painted "Army" on the table. As well, you can get hours of games out of a something that fits into a tackle box that is less than 12" x 8". I used to dismiss Heroclix as a kids game, but once I tried it I got hooked. I am hoping someone continues to produce it, for a little while longer anyway.

I dont consider a game for kids or adults, its not the game that interests me.
Yes I'm a comic fan, Illustrations, art etc.. I'm more a images fan, thats what tickles me most... And I dont see those horrid minis adding anything positive to my imaginary... to be honest I would feel sick to see such good comics or whatever image finishing is such low quality.

I remember people complaining about the Pokemon game. I didn't play it, but it paid the FLGS's rent for about six months. Anything that helps the FLGS stay in business (and the first rule of business is to stay in business) is a good thing.

^ Agreed. The only problem I had with heroclix and the like was the lack of things you could do a turn, only gettting three actions in a 300 point game really annoyed me. Didn't seem superhero enough.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think it's a condemnation of the poor business model of collectible mini's games.

OTOH, the continuing success of Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh proves that a successful business model can be built around collectible (card) gaming.

The difference being that card gaming is literally a license to print money, whereas minis have costs.

Yeah, because all of the designers, developers, artists, and graphic designers who work on those games do it for free.

pombe wrote:This is sad news to me, not necessarily because I loved their games, but because it takes another option off the table.

I love CBT, but never quite got into MWA/AoD. However, when WizKids managed to piss off its MW fanbase by retiring sets, I was able to pick up several 'mechs for cheap (and now, I guess I can do it even cheaper), and I've had quite a few fun games with these minis using them for CBT with my friends (made an appropriately sized hexagonal grid, printed it out and taped several sheets of paper together...cut hexes out of styrofoam for hills, though that was a bit painful). Sure, not all the 'mechs were CBT canon, but at least there was a variety (we designed our 'mechs anyway and chose the ones we liked most visually) and they were already prepainted in various schemes.

I think the click-based idea had a lot of promised, but sadly was not appropriately targetted (and spurning your fanbase was perhaps the death knell for MW), and I know that prepainted minis do have a place in the hobby (heck, I own two AT-43 armies).

I just see this is as a lost opportunity. Competition in the hobby is a good thing, imho, even if you don't necessarily like the products.

You know, the mechs just happen to fit the mighty empires hexs, just saying...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think it's a condemnation of the poor business model of collectible mini's games.

OTOH, the continuing success of Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh proves that a successful business model can be built around collectible (card) gaming.

The difference being that card gaming is literally a license to print money, whereas minis have costs.

But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

CCGs don't take up the rack space that a CMG does. A retailer can have about 8 CCG skus in the same space as one sku for a CMG. More skus to sell = better

And I dont see those horrid minis adding anything positive to my imaginary... to be honest I would feel sick to see such good comics or whatever image finishing is such low quality.

I've seen 40k paint jobs and conversions done much worse than out of the box clix figures.

The difference being that card gaming is literally a license to print money, whereas minis have costs.

I would say that card games have a higher turnover rate than minis games. Practically every property that can be liscenced will have a card game based off of it in quick succession. That card game will then inevitably die. The problem with Minis is that they are a more long term product so you need a good liscence to work off of, whereas with card games you can catch the fad and just laser print a couple hundred thousand cards.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

As a miniatures game, D&D is finished. They're cancelling the skirmish ruleset and are restructuring the miniature range specifically for the RPG.

Pariah Press wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think it's a condemnation of the poor business model of collectible mini's games.

OTOH, the continuing success of Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh proves that a successful business model can be built around collectible (card) gaming.

The difference being that card gaming is literally a license to print money, whereas minis have costs.

Yeah, because all of the designers, developers, artists, and graphic designers who work on those games do it for free.

At the volumes that Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh sell? Yes.

insaniak wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

As a miniatures game, D&D is finished. They're cancelling the skirmish ruleset and are restructuring the miniature range specifically for the RPG.

OTOH, the RPG is much more of a miniatures game now! The 4th edition rules very heavily focus on play on a battle-mat as many character abilities are most useful when tactics can be brought into play: taking advantage of enemies being near each other, shifting enemies (to make the aforementioned advantages), etc.

I don't think WotC really tried to move in on the WHFB space, but their settings don't have a real 'hook' like Warmachine or Hordes does to give people a reason to get attached to the minis. Offering minis now is probably a slam-dunk as they can put out mediocre castings and still do OK sales jsut by being the 'official' company.

My group uses all sorts of sources for minis, including a eBay lot from GodKnowsWhere where we sometimes play 'guess what this is?" on the weirder monsters...

ShumaGorath wrote:

And I dont see those horrid minis adding anything positive to my imaginary... to be honest I would feel sick to see such good comics or whatever image finishing is such low quality.

I've seen 40k paint jobs and conversions done much worse than out of the box clix figures.

.

Me too. The diference is that its made by fans/ entusiasts and not by a company that tries to sell it.

insaniak wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

As a miniatures game, D&D is finished. They're cancelling the skirmish ruleset and are restructuring the miniature range specifically for the RPG.

Won't be the first time they've done that. Anybody remember Chainmail? I really miss that game, quick skirmish level game, great minis, you could start playing at around $20-30 for EXCELLENT metal minis. Hmmmmmm I think I know now why it was canceled....

I haven't played any of the Clix games in quite a while, but they were fun and I'm sorry to see the company go. I think the whole CMG thing has outlived its time, "Monsterpocalypse" not withstanding. When "Mageknight" first appeared it was new and exciting but it soon descended into the pit of all collectible games, he who has the most cash will usually win. That's why I got back into stuff like 40K and WHFB, where I know what I'm getting when I buy a box of models and I don't have to worry about some 13 year old kid who has every frickin' model in the game in all three levels of experience and rares and limited editions, etc, etc...Now all I have to worry about is some 13 year old kid whipping my butt because he can get my Necron into HTH.

@talthar: I know how you feel. That's why, after being invested into Magic, I decided to let everything "not Magic" just pass me by.

What's nice is that a lot of this stuff (i.e. Pirates) is still fun at small scales, where you *don't* need a huge bankroll.

I all honesty there were some gems in the rough of Heroclix. I am a Batman villians fanatic, and the Two-Face and Ventriloquist minis from the latest set are very nice. Ohh well...I guess I will just use my clix models with the Superfigs rules.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's nice is that a lot of this stuff (i.e. Pirates) is still fun at small scales, where you *don't* need a huge bankroll.

Right, which is the issue, getting into a situation where it's not all money driven. Really to do this, you need to either get a big group of friends together, or something store sponsored, and really it's almost not in the store best interest to run a "cheap" collectable card game league. (Yes, I know it happens quite a bit, but still).

I'm proud to say that I probably spent a max of $200 on Magic, and I played fairly competitively (with my friends) for a few years before it got old. Most of it was spending $40 to buy a ton of cards from somebody who was getting out of it. I've had similar experience with a number of other ccgs (40K CCG, LoTR, L5R, etc). Really they can be a lot of fun, if you can all agree to play casually.

BigToof wrote:

insaniak wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

As a miniatures game, D&D is finished. They're cancelling the skirmish ruleset and are restructuring the miniature range specifically for the RPG.

Won't be the first time they've done that. Anybody remember Chainmail? I really miss that game, quick skirmish level game, great minis, you could start playing at around $20-30 for EXCELLENT metal minis. Hmmmmmm I think I know now why it was canceled....

The minis were great. A theory put forth by Matt Wilson as to why it flopped was
the decision to make the models "realistic" and subtle as opposed to the familiar GW
method of exaggerating weaponry and poses. Minis are small. Making them subtle
makes them seem even smaller.

malfred wrote:

BigToof wrote:

insaniak wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But the D&D minis franchise seems to be doing well enough, thanks to the WotC-Hasbro connection... I think that CMG will have serious legs.

As a miniatures game, D&D is finished. They're cancelling the skirmish ruleset and are restructuring the miniature range specifically for the RPG.

Won't be the first time they've done that. Anybody remember Chainmail? I really miss that game, quick skirmish level game, great minis, you could start playing at around $20-30 for EXCELLENT metal minis. Hmmmmmm I think I know now why it was canceled....

The minis were great. A theory put forth by Matt Wilson as to why it flopped was
the decision to make the models "realistic" and subtle as opposed to the familiar GW
method of exaggerating weaponry and poses. Minis are small. Making them subtle
makes them seem even smaller.

I am going to disagree malfred.

I was big into Chainmail, because I wanted that kind of game, but wanted the hobby aspect too.

Mechwarrior was very big at that time, and was really hitting its peak (this was prior to the Topps buyout). Wizkids was making a very profitable name for themselves.

I really thing Chainmail (circa: 2000) was made in repsonce to mageknights overwhelming success at that time.
I also think that Wizards killed chainmail for the exact same reason.

Because prepaints were hot, so they dropped the metal models, and went blind buy prepaints, which make for far more income potential.

I honestly think that the models that were made for chainmail had very little if anything to do with chainmail dying. (though the small swords do break FAR too often)

Of course.

The profits didn't roll in fast enough

Just some history here for D&D and miniatures. The original Chainmail was from the '70s. BattleSystem was the D&D miniature game from the mid to late '80s with the official miniatures manufactured for them by Ral Partha.

There was also a later reuse of the Chainmail name in 2002 for D&D's miniatures game. It only lasted a single year before it was replaced with the D&D Miniatures Game with it's prepainted plastic miniatures.

For an RPG company, they have a long history with miniatures.

HHHMM a madcat stomping on a wizard's tower what a fascinanting piece to build might make it some time heheheh.......

Ghaz wrote:Just some history here for D&D and miniatures. The original Chainmail was from the '70s. BattleSystem was the D&D miniature game from the mid to late '80s with the official miniatures manufactured for them by Ral Partha.

There was also a later reuse of the Chainmail name in 2002 for D&D's miniatures game. It only lasted a single year before it was replaced with the D&D Miniatures Game with it's prepainted plastic miniatures.

For an RPG company, they have a long history with miniatures.

And of course, the hordes of little monster miniatures that GW (the UK D&D licensee back in the old days) made in the UK for D&D eventually created the impetus for Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

talthar wrote:I haven't played any of the Clix games in quite a while, but they were fun and I'm sorry to see the company go. I think the whole CMG thing has outlived its time, "Monsterpocalypse" not withstanding. When "Mageknight" first appeared it was new and exciting but it soon descended into the pit of all collectible games, he who has the most cash will usually win. That's why I got back into stuff like 40K and WHFB, where I know what I'm getting when I buy a box of models and I don't have to worry about some 13 year old kid who has every frickin' model in the game in all three levels of experience and rares and limited editions, etc, etc...Now all I have to worry about is some 13 year old kid whipping my butt because he can get my Necron into HTH.

Well mage knight, if played using the dungeon ruleset, could be played any way you really wanted it to. I'd field a list comprised of hitash levat and a handful of heroes, than use 10-20 point monsters to fill out the ranks in a thousand-point game. I'd usually win too hahaha, zombies are cheap and held things in place til Hitash could kill them but good. Total army cost was about a hundred dollars.

The thing that killed mageknight was "mageknight 2.0" everybody restarts the collection, with new rules? Hell no. My entire gaming group dropped it like a rock when wizkids said "Buy moar!"

Hellfury wrote:
Mechwarrior was very big at that time, and was really hitting its peak (this was prior to the Topps buyout). Wizkids was making a very profitable name for themselves.

I'm pretty sure that MW : DA came out just after they canceled Chainmail, I remember being part of the playtesting, and absolutely hating the game. The whole, you can move, or you can shoot drove me nuts.

Back in the day around 2000 I played Mage Knight and then tried my hand at MechWarrior. Years ago I played what is now called Classic Battletech.

When WizKids changed all the rules and banned figures in 2003 I knew the end was near. I lasted one more year with Mage Knight and then in 2005 they stopped production of the figures. I saw people playing MechWarrior last year at one of the local Stores.

Most of my Mage knight figures are now conversion fodder for other games 40K and PP games. Have used some of the figures for WHF as well.

What drew me to WK was the possibility that they would bring battletech back.

I think TOPPS may keep some of the lines and will let the others go to RIP.

Warrior 50

Warrior 50 wrote:What drew me to WK was the possibility that they would bring battletech back.

Umm... BattleTech never went away.

BYE

Right, but Catalyst Games had to get the license from Wizkids... so technically that is a comeback as they're not the original developers.

Like Urban Mammoth with the VOID IP (but not the models) etc.

If C:BT re-did their model line I'd consider it. But I've got more nostalgia for Stretch Armstrong than I do for those old BT models...

Achilles wrote:Right, but Catalyst Games had to get the license from Wizkids... so technically that is a comeback as they're not the original developers.

A lot of the people working on CBT today are the same people who worked on it during the FASA days. And before Catalyst it was Fanpro, with the same group of people, just a different company. FASA's demise didn't kill BTech, and neither will the death of Wizkids.

BYE

Older models > New Models in detail, scale and "feel"

Old:




New:



Look at the lines, details, and little things carved into the older models. The new ones look like slabs and/or tumors.

From what I know, none of those models are new.

The Albatross, the third one you posted there, was released within a few years of TRO:3055 being published. TRO: 3055 was published in 1995. Most things in the BTech range are very old. I've got some tank models that are almost as old as I am (sculpts from '88). The fourth one you posted, the Battle Hawk, is from the same book - a 13 year old publication.

The biggest amount of their newer models - ignoring the Celestials - came about from Project Phoenix. That was 2003, and gave us some very nice models, like the excellent new Thunderbolt and Warhammer IIC.

BYE

Yeah, only the last one is a newer sculpt... probably a WoB design that looks like every other original design post Operation Phoenix. CBT's been in decline for a while IMO, but it's had nothing to do with Wizkids...

Prometheum5 wrote:CBT's been in decline for a while IMO, but it's had nothing to do with Wizkids...

Yes. A huge decline that has seen steadily growing sales, an ever-increasingly packed release schedule, multiple awards for new boxed sets, and production rate for new miniatures that hasn't been seen in years.

Yep. They really are declining...

BYE

This totally blows!

Older models > New Models in detail, scale and "feel"

Keep in mind not everyone likes the older "Feel" of having hundreds of extraneous lines because the concept artist couldn't be bothered to erase his initial proportion lines. This wasn't something unique to battletech, it was just sort of the "Style" in the 80's - early 90's.

However... The art in a lot of the technical manuals, besides being god awful with terrible perspective is often pretty lazy. The battletech card game delivered what has to be the best art ever used relating to a battletech product. Unfortunately the models themselves are based on the technical manual drawings.

Yes. There are numerous BTech models that are... well... terrible. A lot of the resculpts are much, much better, but some of the old ones were not only bad in looks but also terrible in scale. There are some Assault 'Mechs that are smaller than Light 'Mechs, and all sorts of crazy stuff. The newer ones are also getting bigger. Take the new Kraken and the bigger WoB 'Mechs. They're HUGE.

Part of it is the transfer from Ral Partha to Iron Wind, some of it is the fact that it's all a case of freelance sculptors rather than a team of dedicated sculptors all working on a single line and, yes, some of it is due to the tech manual drawings which, although being redrawn quite nicley in the Revised Editions of the TRO's, have sadly made quite a large impact already.

BYE

Has CBT legitimately been growing to the extent you claim? Everywhere around me I see it as a dead game that sells no models and has almost no players, and the main CBT community I always visited has slowed down considerably from what it was about 5 years ago... I'm willing to be wrong, but I just haven't seen the success you're mentioning.

Well, my friends dad who played back in the old days before my friend was born. (Wife made him sell 10' by 4' worth of models when the she got pregnant lol) He has pretty much re-gathered all of his lost stuff. In Numbers anyways, the guys is nuts.

CBT was my first 'real' game after Mage Knight ushered me in... I've still got great big gobs of models, both paint and unassembled, including a bunch of the better OOP models and a ton of vehicles I've little use for... along with some Armorcast stuff I'm saving for a rainy day. CBT had its charm, but often bogged down with too much math for me... but I still love its detail and customization.

CBT never struck me as a math-intensive game.

The old ICE games on the other hand...

Well, it's not terribly math-based, but then again, I'M not terribly math-based... I had a bear of a time keeping movement and terrain and skill and whatnot modifiers all in check.

H.B.M.C. wrote:From what I know, none of those models are new.

The Albatross, the third one you posted there, was released within a few years of TRO:3055 being published. TRO: 3055 was published in 1995. Most things in the BTech range are very old. I've got some tank models that are almost as old as I am (sculpts from '88). The fourth one you posted, the Battle Hawk, is from the same book - a 13 year old publication.

The biggest amount of their newer models - ignoring the Celestials - came about from Project Phoenix. That was 2003, and gave us some very nice models, like the excellent new Thunderbolt and Warhammer IIC.

BYE

Well, HBMC, they're new to me. I started playing before the Clans were introduced, just after they released the Star League Tech Manual. I haven't like most of the sculpts since just past the Clan releases. They all became too bulky and looked like rushed pieces to me. Compare the older atlas sculpt to the newer one. The old one had heft and power, where the new one looks anorexic. No thanks.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Well, HBMC, they're new to me.

That's... great... I guess.

Valhallan42nd wrote:They all became too bulky and looked like rushed pieces to me.

Well, they're not. And they're still not in any way 'new'.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Compare the older atlas sculpt to the newer one. The old one had heft and power, where the new one looks anorexic. No thanks.

Clearly you haven't seen the new sculpt IRL. It's very big. Nothing anorexic about it. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good opinion. Nor do I see how anything you've said in any way refutes what I said:

None of these things are new.

Newer perhaps than the original models, yes, but not new by anyone's standards. Or, to put it another way, you've kept yourself out of the loop for 19 years (yes, TRO:3050's 20th anniversary is next year) and now come back to it and say 'everything new is crap'. Would that be correct?

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Well, it's not terribly math-based, but then again, I'M not terribly math-based... I had a bear of a time keeping movement and terrain and skill and whatnot modifiers all in check.

Never occured to you to just put a few dice next to a 'Mechs record sheet? Or even write it down and then rub it out at the end of the turn? I won't deny that you do have to do a lot of quick calculations in your head using tables and tables of modifiers, but keeping track of it all is a breeze after your first few games.

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Has CBT legitimately been growing to the extent you claim? Everywhere around me I see it as a dead game that sells no models and has almost no players, and the main CBT community I always visited has slowed down considerably from what it was about 5 years ago... I'm willing to be wrong, but I just haven't seen the success you're mentioning.

Catalyst Labs was running CBT all week long at GenCon. Their events were literatily swamped, to the point that the one event I went to had 4-5 boards with 10+ people per table, and they were turning people away. It also seems to have picked up quite a bit locally, but I agree with you, it's hard to say.

skyth wrote:CBT never struck me as a math-intensive game.

Not math per se, but it definitely had the old skool wargaming modifiers and charts. Personally I'm glad every time I play that 40K has long since moved away from that sort of thing. Unfortunately those sorts of things are EXACTLY what a well done click tech game could do without all the charts, etc.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Newer perhaps than the original models, yes, but not new by anyone's standards. Or, to put it another way, you've kept yourself out of the loop for 19 years (yes, TRO:3050's 20th anniversary is next year) and now come back to it and say 'everything new is crap'. Would that be correct?

BYE

Yes, Negative Nelly, that's absolutely correct, though I'd hardly call myself out of the loop. I have great affection for the older models, the 20 year + models, as you've pointed out. It's not like my FLGSs are not carring CBT stuff. With a very few exceptions, most of the line produced since the Clan invasion is crap. Detail-less sloppy crap.

And I've seen the models in real life, and they're still crap, even though I haven't played with/purchased them. The quality has dropped, unlike other games where quality has improved.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Yes, Negative Nelly, that's absolutely correct

I'm the one saying how great it all is, you're the one saying that everything since the Clans has been crap... and I'm being negative? I've got a message from my pot here, he says you're black.

Valhallan42nd wrote:With a very few exceptions, most of the line produced since the Clan invasion is crap. Detail-less sloppy crap. And I've seen the models in real life, and they're still crap, even though I haven't played with/purchased them.

In your opinion. Please stop passing it off as fact.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The quality has dropped, unlike other games where quality has improved.

Yeah, the quality 20 years ago sure was awesome compared to now. Yep, those new models sure can't compete with the glorious old ones.



At the end of the day I'm not going to argue the quality of BTech miniatures. There are loads that are absolute crap - both from an aesthetic point of view to a practical model point of view (the new Blood Asp looks a hell of a lot better than the old one, but I cannot get it to stay in one piece is such a bad model). But it's always been that way. It's not better or worse now than it was back in the old days before the Clans 'ruined everything' (a view I assume you hold, Mr 42nd - the Clans did 'ruin everything', right?).

As Shummy quite correctly pointed out, many of the original miniatures exist as they do because of the dreadful published concept sketches that made it into the TRO's. There are newer models coming out to replace these older ones (the new Fireball is about to come out after years of their being no model for it since the old moulds vanished into the dusts of time) and they're trying to use the newer artwork that has been done since then, improving the look of the 'Mechs without changing them in any significant fashion (look at TRO:3025 and compare it to TRO:3039 - all the same 'Mechs, but they just look better).

But simply saying 'Old is God - new stuff is extra crappy' is just plain wrong, and is an attempt to pass off opinion as fact. If you want to hold that opinion, then fine, it's my opinion that the current Chaos Codex is a steaming lump of Krootox dung that was made as a blatant insult to Chaos players, but that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to it, but it's not fact, and as such I won't try to pass it off as fact.

BYE

Hey now, that Imp was one of the first miniatures I ever painted! My first was the Axeman Learn To Paint set. If it weren't for BattleTech I may not have gotten into 40K.

Clan mechs were awesome. I loved the story of the Clans; and I even repainted my old star league mechs in Clan Blood Spirit colors. But I thank you for trying to pigeon-hole me in order to attempt to invalidate my still informed opinion. I dip hate the inherent power creep in most of my player base, who seemed to think that if it wasn't clan tech, you shouldn't bother with it. My core group switched to more narrative campaigns after that.

Fiction-wise, CBT had a compelling story line and a great setting. I just didn't agree with the aesthetic direction the newer mechs were taking. Like I said, there are a few exceptions in either direction. But taking even the Imp you posted in consideration, it's still more detailed than the other newer models you showed.

Are you honestly telling me you don't like the old Grasshopper, Centurion, Spider, Zeus, Assassin, etc? The Whitworth and Quickdraw, I understand...

Hey I've got an Imp too, and I love it to bits (it leads a unit of other 'egg' 'Mechs - two UrbanMechs and an UrbanMech IIC)... it's still (IMO) an ugly horrible model, one that didn't even improve with the new artwork in TRO3039.

BYE

I enjoy stuff like the old Stone Rhino... I've a few Unseens, and they're slick, stuff like the Urby were alot of fun to model as well.

All my mech models are Unseens except for a very few that were created from the original TRO.

A lot of the models are pretty basic but I like them because they are the original models taken from Dougram and Macross.

Prometheum5 wrote:I enjoy stuff like the old Stone Rhino... I've a few Unseens, and they're slick, stuff like the Urby were alot of fun to model as well.

Man, I remember the Stone Rhino. I loved that model. You could have killed someone with that thing. Just put it in a sock and start swinging...

LOL, good one lormax - thats actually not far from a real possibility!

We stopped stocking and ordering wizkids unless it was special order, about 9 months ago (made a giant dent in our alliance reps paycheck! no more commisions!) We could "feel" these guys dying. I don't think that topps had anything to do with it actually. More like the only good game mechanic they had was Pirates, and the way that was packaged actually was a turn off to many people (i thought it was cool, tons of people said it was lame)

I do know heroclix, mechwarrior, and anything that was good at one point, they systematically decayed. Long and short of it - you can only re-do / reprint batman so many times before the game and "collecatbility" of it really starts to lose its shimmer, and when they moved from the CMG booster style to open window - every box is the same type package, that took the secondary market away because there was no "rare" pulls.

We are shocked it lasted this long. The month we stopped stocking it - we took all the clix and moved them into the warehouse and off our show floor. Anybody who asked for clix, we said we couldnt stock it because demand was down (not a lie - it was true) and then recomended that if they had time to try a 40k demo, and also mentioned this cool game we heard called "monsterpocalypse" that was coming soon.
Never lost a customer and just stopped selling clix.

By the way, this is 100% true based on the email we got a week ago, along with thier public info. Topps plans to somehow (im still suspect) keep the heroclix game going. but unless they make a change in the game play, and packaging - it wont live long.

Even if it stays around we will be weary about stocking it in mass again, because really - we all think that a bunch of boneheads run that place. WHO THE HECK APPROVED HALO CLIX FOR RELEASE!?!?! what a ruined oppertunity - it was like buying action figures at walmart because the games rules were #1 horribly written and near impossible to understand #2 the ones you could understand made the game completly novice and made no sense with the "fluff" of halo. Dont get me started on horror clix.

Good bye, and its about time!

If anybody needs me i'll be over here playing real games that are good for our hobby, and industry.

Yo, there are quite a few of the Project Phoenix models that suck. The Crusader and Wolverine, for example.



The Veritech Reseens (Stinger, Valkyrie, Wasp) are all fugly looking too.

Monsterpocalypse?

I thought that was another Collectible Pre-Paint nightmare?

Privateer press has pretty much said if you buy a case, you've got the whole set or near enough that it won't count.

I've got faith they can make it work, and I'm not even a PP player. The D6 Generation interviews are pretty enlightening.

Sounds fair enough. Is how I buy my Magic Cards. Buy a Booster Box on release, and if I miss anything critical, singles order it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Well, HBMC, they're new to me.

That's... great... I guess.

BYE

Actually there is a case to answer, and an explanation. Especailly for someone who likes to play around clan invasion timeline.

The Unseen.

In case you did not know Battletech shared a lot of its most endearing models with Veritech, Crusher Joe and other Japanese cartoon robots. Due to a lawsuit in the mid 90's FASA agreed to drop all these images from their product line and artwork.

Frankly I still think the early 80's designs Unseen or not have more character than the later stuff. With barely a handful of exceptions.

Battletech standard to look crap with 2750, which didnt have the character of the 3025 and 3026 designs. Some 3050 designs have animage to them, others dont looki so hot. Since then the mechs have gone downhill especially of late with the Dark Age crossover where mechs were redesigned as toys for kiddies. the game is still great and the storyline can deliver (when not written by Stackpole) but something is missing in the newer style.

The "buy a case" theory on MONNP-POC does work.

only once - in about 30 cases weve seen we have not got 1 of each of all the 12 monsters (12 boosters per case)

and I do like the example of how you equate it to magic players... it's a numbers / ratio / probability system.

As for Mon - Poc being a nightmare... nope there doing better with mon poc then with warmachine as of late - and the games mechanics are really sound (even if the flying saucer is a little bit broken!) and the sales are ridiculous, event participation is very high, and there even thinking of pushing set 2 forward to make the compitition more intense for about 5 months because that would create more possible Monster X vs Monster Y match-ups.

MonPoc will do well for a long while, barring they dont go all mechwarrior and do open window product and/or don't ever! ever! re-print anything!

by the way - the buy th ecase thing only works for the monsters. Collecting the units you desire is very tough and it is far better to buy singles at $4 each or trade extra monsters for them because sometimes we see as little as 1 copy of some units per case opened!

Reprints aren't horrible, provided there's a mechanism for controlling reprints. Look at Magic - there are things that are reprintable, and things that are not. It works pretty well for them.

And when it's reprinted, you know it's a reprint, so the value of the older cards isn't hit so hard.

Indeed. And I would argue that with Magic, you eventually get a repetition of the ability you want, even if it's not a reprint of the exact card.

excuss me. Not REPRINT I agree that reprints are ok if handled properly.

I should be saying RECREATE.

as in heroclix Re-CREATES the same models but it really breaks down th e"excitment" and fluff of it. as in I have 8 different batmans, when i open the 9th one its - "another batman" not "SWEET! I GOT BATMAN!"

so monpoc should just make new monsters and not re-create monster. advantage to monpoc becaus ethier universue is unlimited unlike comic universe is sort of forced to use charecters people want to see.

Oh, OK.

Tho, depending on the versions, there'd be a lot of excitement: "SWEET! I GOT GOLDEN-AGE SUPERMAN - I AUTOMATICALLY WIN!!!"

I know what you mean Gorilla.

Even with Mageknight, some of the supposedly 'new' beasties in each expansion were just plain old repaints of existing models with a different name. Sure, they had new abilities and stuff, but still it's somewhat 'meh'

Having said that though, I daresay the cost of constantly producing an entirely new batch of models for every expansion (beyond the first few of course, which I'd expect to be planned somewhat in advance) is something of a financial necessity. Otherwise you might never break even on startup costs if you find yourself constantly revisiting them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, OK.

Tho, depending on the versions, there'd be a lot of excitement: "SWEET! I GOT GOLDEN-AGE SUPERMAN - I AUTOMATICALLY WIN!!!"

And see - that is funny, because it's exactally true!

lets not go into the balance of power in this thread though.


HERE IS A FUNNY STORY: Our partner warehouse (not to be nammed) actually got some serious hatemail from alliance, and it all stemmed too how we do such a better job and alliance claimed they were "acting too aggressive" on wholesale pricing - and alliance used this as a reason to not pass wizkids product thorugh to them (wizkids was exclusive to alliance only as of early 2008)

well - looks like alliance lost it's bargaining chip!

funny that a company that is owned by DIAMOND was telling somebody else they were "too aggressive" when they did the same stuff back in the day to become the mega comic monopoly!


I think the best thing about this situation is, that it's NOT one of the companies that we give a hoot about, I only wish we could have warned people to stop buying thier stuff when we realized this would happen. But nooooo they insisted and I can't recall how many times we handed them a phone number of a "competion" store across town that was still determined to stock the WK products.

My personal friend who owns a store in a different area alltogether said he found out about the wizkids thing a week early because his primary busines is sports cards and he has a TOPPS direct account, and the news sort of grapevined over to him. The realization he came too was In his own words "Oh crap I have $7000 of wizkids products here that i need to FIRESALE before people wont even take it for 50% off!" (he has a very "impressive" stock of heroclix alone)

Sad, but not that surprised to see it. I knew it when I heard Wizkids site got hacked and was handing out spyware for a time, and it took forever to get it fixed.

Switching to Mage Knight 2.0 kinda killed off the game, and none of the alternatives they produced ever panned out except Mechwarrior for a time, Pirates and HeroClix.

They put a ton of effort into stuff like CreepyFreaks, but none of it ever panned out. If they had just switched to generic toy products they might have come through.

Really I feel bad for the FLGSs that are now sitting on a ton of dead inventory.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Remember the baseball clix? :lol: I was also really upset to see MK 2.0 tank, as the heroes and items were genuinely neat ideas blurring the line between wargame and RPG, but the actual mechanisms were just terrible.

Prometheum5 wrote:Remember the baseball clix? :lol: I was also really upset to see MK 2.0 tank, as the heroes and items were genuinely neat ideas blurring the line between wargame and RPG, but the actual mechanisms were just terrible.

OH YEAH! I totally forgot about sports clix!

I have a ALEX RODRIGUEZ here in this desk... i think it was a super rare! W00T!

yeah, looking at this really sums up the life of wizkids for me..........

Update: Looks like catalyst is putting in an offer to acquire the games.

Please follow the link to TTGN if you're interested in the story:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2008/11/17/19876

Catalyst have already added the 'Dark Age Era' to their list of BattleTech Eras. It's an interesting development.

BYE

To those who are better informed than I....

What is it with Battletech? The system seems to be some sort of Corporate 'Pass The Parcel'?

Is the game just not as popular as it's made out to be, are the owning companies just unsure what to do with it? What? I played an old version (with horrible, soft plastic models that paint slew straight off of) which was quite good fun, and then it disappeared in my area. Can someone offer me at least an informed opinion, if not outright fact?

The list of companies involved in BTech is actually quite simple, and involves no pass the parcel.

In 2001 the people who ran FASA decided to shut the company down. They did not go bankrupt or die because they weren't selling anything, they just didn't see much of a future in what they were doing so decided to quit while they were ahead.

The BTech lisence was sold to one of the original co-founders of FASA, Jordan Wiseman, who had started WizKids with the game MageKnight. His company made Mechwarrior: Dark Age using their Clix gaming system, and BattleTech, renamed Classic BattleTech to distinguish it from the new game, was lisenced to FanPro, a German company.

The American part of FanPro produced no less than 30-40 products during this time (2001-2006), from sourcebooks to scenario books to revised editions of previous tech readouts, and, most importantly, the current master rules - Total Warfare - which came in 2006. In the 2007 the lisence was transferred to Catalyst Game Labs, a company co-founded by Loren Coleman, one of BTech's biggest writers. A number of the current BTech writers all worked for FASA as well, so the core team of people making the game hasn't changed.

Since Catalyst took over, the work they started with the main Total Warfare rulebook in the 2006 has continued, and since then two other core rulebooks have been released, one in 2007, one this year, and the fourth to arrive towards the end of this year. Overall I think they've put out close to 20 different products since 2007, including their Introductory Boxed Set, an item that contains plastic miniautres (a big deal given that had to get permission from WizKids to do this), and has won a few awards since its release. They even released two new products this week!

On the miniature front, Iron Wind Metals now produces all the BTech minis, and 5 days ago extended their contract to continue producing miniatures.

And today Catalyst Game Labs made an offer to Topps to completely buy a number of WizKids properties, including BTech, Shadowrun, Pirates and HeroClix.

There are more interesting days ahead with the demise of WizKids, and there's the odd situation where Jordan Wiseman's new company - Tinker & Smith - is lisencing the rights to make BTech computer games from Microsoft (another long story), but BTech has never stopped. We're looking at anywhere up to 50 products (not miniautres, actual full-sized book releases) since 2001.

BYE

Personally I think the issue with Battletech is that it is "very popular" with some people, who love it a *lot*, but it is not "widely popular".

Now of course that can be said about any "niche game within a niche hobby", but I believe it to be the case with Battletech more so than with many current games.

I suspect there is sufficient demand to support a "boutique" company, maybe on a similar level to one of GW's SG's, but not enough to interest the likes of Hasbro or one of their subsidiaries who would be looking for much greater returns from a large investment.

BTech has it's 25th Anniversay next year. It's a fair bit bigger than any of GW's (unsupported) Specialist Games.

Truth of the matter is that we're spoilt by GW. There aren't many in the industry that can match their size. How many game companies have their own chain of stores worldwide? The enormity of Games Workshop overshadows everyone, and while I doubt they truly own 98% of the world's gaming market share (whatever their finance reports might want us to believe), they hold enough that they make others look very small in comparison.

BYE

I played Mageknight for a while and it was fun enough, but it seemed to just spiral. We may complain about balance, power creep and whiffy sculpts with GW but they are light years ahead of that stuff. The mechwarrior game they had looked fun too, but I never got into it because at the time it was popular locally I was broke/doing final college exams.

Sad to see them go under though, less diversity in the market is always bad. Now I hear D'n'D minis are changing from their CMG status to semi CMG designed for roleplaying, and it seems monsterpocalypse and axis and allies may be some of the only CMGs that stay stocked in any of the local games places.

I'm interested to see how long Monsterpocalypse lasts for. Going on the life expectancy of previous pre-paint CMGs, not terribly long at all. But then, every rule has it's exception to prove itself (no, I never understood that as a theory myself, as surely an exception disproves rather than proves the rule) and perhaps this is it. Me, I kind of doubt it. The main draw of a miniatures game is the modelling and painting side, making your force distinctive and increasingly 'yours'. Pre-paints fly in the face of that theory somewhat, and I really, really do not like blind buying (except with Magic, which I guess is the exception that proves my own rule!)

Osbad wrote:Personally I think the issue with Battletech is that it is "very popular" with some people, who love it a *lot*, but it is not "widely popular".

And those people who love the system are usually the ones who already have all the rules, models, etc. Since the game is essentially unchanged since it came out in the 80's, and that's considered to be one of it's strengths, there are no new rules, units, etc. I've heard that the new owners have added in a new faction, but most people still stick with the classics. So while it's very popular, that popularity doesn't necessarily translate into sales.

BigToof wrote:

Osbad wrote:Personally I think the issue with Battletech is that it is "very popular" with some people, who love it a *lot*, but it is not "widely popular".

And those people who love the system are usually the ones who already have all the rules, models, etc. Since the game is essentially unchanged since it came out in the 80's, and that's considered to be one of it's strengths, there are no new rules, units, etc. I've heard that the new owners have added in a new faction, but most people still stick with the classics. So while it's very popular, that popularity doesn't necessarily translate into sales.

Seems to translate well enough into them being confident they have the cash and ability to acquire many of WizKids properties...

Battletech has a big advantage over 40K and that is a more solid base of fans. 40K has simple rules so that they can get the younger kids to buy with parent money and play. Battletech relies on a constant system that hasn't invalidated itself with rule changes over the course of it's existence.

Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game, where 40K is just a dice game with minis. There is no flanking in 40K, just shooting from a different angle. maneuvering behind an opponent doesn't actually give you an advantage in 40K over shooting them from any other angle. Battletech uses tactics with a decent (not perfect) sense of reality to make an excellent simulation of combat. 40K has more to do with Yahtzee at times than tactical combat.

Rant over.

Mattlov wrote:
Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game, where 40K is just a dice game with minis. There is no flanking in 40K, just shooting from a different angle. maneuvering behind an opponent doesn't actually give you an advantage in 40K over shooting them from any other angle. Battletech uses tactics with a decent (not perfect) sense of reality to make an excellent simulation of combat. 40K has more to do with Yahtzee at times than tactical combat.

Rant over.

Horses for courses really. Personally I prefer "simpler" games - that I can understand and play within a few minutes/couple of hours of opening the rule book. I really haven't got the time, nor the inclination any more to spend days and days poring over rulesets, nor more than a couple of hours tops to play a game. Other things in life take my time. But if that's your bag, then fair enough. After all, there are still people raving over 2nd edition 40k... Of course its important not to equate a preference for simplicity of rules with a lower IQ - after all, you don't get a much simpler tabletop game than chess when it comes to rules, and Gary Kasparov would probably not appreciate that point of view

Digression over, the key issue is translating "love" and "interest" into sales. All the love and interest in the world won't allow a games company to pay the rent unless it translates into sales, and actually year-on-year sales growth, not just static sales. 'Tis the same with all hobbies - not just tabletop gaming. Afterall you can go fishing with a stick, some twine and a bent safety pin. But if you want to you can spend $'000's on carbon fibre rods, etc., etc. No one made a fortune flogging sticks, twine and used safety pins, but there are plenty of wealthy fishing supply companies... Its all in the perception of value for money for the hobbyist.

As GW have found, the amount of direct sales they make from people dwindles after a couple of years (although it seems that they do now appreciate that they have to keep the "vets" happy and playing to some extent, or there isn't going to be any hobby for the high-spending n00bs to join into!), so they try all sorts to keep generating new sales and perk up interest for the long term - its the reason the GTs, Games Day, Golden Daemon, etc., all exist. Without that level of financial muscle though, it is inevitable that a game will "die" (i.e. pass to a point where sales volume dwindles below a viable threshold).

As a hobby sector we are renowned for the love of the "new shiney". As a sector we'd much rather spend £20 on a new game than on expanding an existing one, unless we can be strongly convinced otherwise. It has been a mark of GW's and PP's genii that they have succeeded in "locking in" so many adherents to their own particular systems where many other companies before and since have failed. Arguably it is endemic with PPP (such as Mechwarrior became) that there is lower initial investment and therefore less emotional investment in the game, and so less long-term scope for customer retention. In my opinion most "clix" games just don't generate the love and sense of investment of self that more tradional tabletop games do - its easier to dump a game which you've got bored with if it only cost you money. If you've taken the trouble to model and paint your army you are more likely to stick the course I think.

It will be interesting to see how far Rackham can sustain interest in AT-43 and CAoR in the face of this tendency - will the rules, which are better and less broken than any clix game I have played, and the sense of "army building" alone generate enough "emotional investment" to sustain long term interest in the product ranges? Or does it need the tournament scene, modelling investment and all the other gubbins as well to sustain a product line?

Time will tell.

I agree, but I just like to try to change the opinion that Battletech is a complex game. In the end, it has far fewer rules than 40K does, despite being a more tactical system.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are more interesting days ahead with the demise of WizKids, and there's the odd situation where Jordan Wiseman's new company - Tinker & Smith - is lisencing the rights to make BTech computer games from Microsoft (another long story), but BTech has never stopped. We're looking at anywhere up to 50 products (not miniautres, actual full-sized book releases) since 2001.

Wait. Whoah. Really? It's about time for a new Mechwarrior game. With all the advances in FPSs in the past few years, especially with Halo and Battlefield, they can start introducing those little powered armored guys as well as the giant 'Mechs.

They've had the rights to make Mechwarrior games for almost two years now? Nothing's been heard, but that's probably because whatever they're working on isn't read to be revealed.

It is a weird situation, given that Microsoft held the lisence for so long, even had a company set up - FASA Interactive - to make these games, even after FASA shut down - yet they made nothing and then lisenced the rights to someone who's made nothing...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:They've had the rights to make Mechwarrior games for almost two years now? Nothing's been heard, but that's probably because whatever they're working on isn't read to be revealed.

It is a weird situation, given that Microsoft held the lisence for so long, even had a company set up - FASA Interactive - to make these games, even after FASA shut down - yet they made nothing and then lisenced the rights to someone who's made nothing...

BYE

Microsoft still holds ownership, and anything Weisman does has to be approved by Microsoft. Just because you hold a license doesn't give you free reign to do what you want. You have the ABILITY to make something under that name and intellectual property, IF the holder of the rights allows it.

Even though WK wasn't doeing much, Catalyst still had to have WK approval for all of their products to be produced.

They held the IP and were in the process of producing a mechassault game for the xbox 360 but the low expected sales of the property and internal politics of first party microsoft development studios saw the game put on ice. Then they collapsed the studio as a cost cutting measure. Microsoft still owns the IP, and doesn't seem willing to invest the funds to make a functional first party game under the liscence at the moment.

There are actually a few liscences that microsoft owns in this regard that they seem unwilling to capitalize on. Rare is a first party development house, and only just recently released a banjo kazooie title for the platform, and after the crapfest that was perfect dark zero they just seem to be sitting on that one as well.

They seem to favor a staggered first party launch sequence that allows for about a month to two months between major first party releases barring the run up to the holiday season. This means funding specific studios for specific IPs and games, but not leveraging the considerable development capitol on IPs considered risky.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The main draw of a miniatures game is the modelling and painting side, making your force distinctive and increasingly 'yours'. Pre-paints fly in the face of that theory somewhat, and I really, really do not like blind buying

Pre-paints aren't aimed at those who like painting. They're aimed at the ever-increasing crowd who don want to paint, or at people who enjoy collecting and are fans of the particular theme of that game.

The random element to the boosters for most pre-painted games serves to keep the price down, and if the game's reasonably popular, the secondary singles market generally means that it's not too hard to find what you want if you're chasing specific miniatures.

The main draw of a miniatures game is the modelling and painting side, making your force distinctive and increasingly 'yours'.

I wouldn't say thats the draw for everyone. Army compostion and the game itself are big draws to a lot of people. I know plenty who don't particularly enjoy painting or modeling, yet want a force customized to be there.

ShumaGorath wrote:They held the IP and were in the process of producing a mechassault game for the xbox 360 but the low expected sales of the property and internal politics of first party microsoft development studios saw the game put on ice. Then they collapsed the studio as a cost cutting measure. Microsoft still owns the IP, and doesn't seem willing to invest the funds to make a functional first party game under the liscence at the moment.

Yes, they shut down FASA Interactive but then lisenced the rights to Tinker & Smith.

BYE

Pity, their Mech Warrior games and the first Crimson Skies game for the PC were great and oft-overlooked jewels.

Mattlov wrote:Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game, where 40K is just a dice game with minis.
...
40K has more to do with Yahtzee at times than tactical combat.

Simulation of what? 40+ ton giant robots armored in unobtainium armed with pseudoscience hypertechnology guns?

Yahtzee only rolls 5 dice. 40k tactics are about getting into a position where you can roll 5 *fistfuls* of dice, or to prevent the opponent from rolling same against you.

Osbad wrote:you don't get a much simpler tabletop game than chess when it comes to rules, and Gary Kasparov would probably not appreciate that point of view

I'd nominate Checkers and Go as simpler tabletop games, the latter in particular.

Osbad wrote:As GW have found, the amount of direct sales they make from people dwindles after a couple of years
...
Without that level of financial muscle though, it is inevitable that a game will "die" (i.e. pass to a point where sales volume dwindles below a viable threshold).

It's like this with pretty much any product. New sales at introduction are what drives product, whereas follow-on sales are much lower. Why else the whole fascination with opening-nights, box office gross and first edition books. This is why the "Wave 2" approach is really mystifying to me.

Osbad wrote:If you've taken the trouble to model and paint your army you are more likely to stick the course I think.

I agree with this. Getting players to invest is what keeps them in the system. Magic has a similar hold, with the "science" of deckbuilding & tuning.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:They held the IP and were in the process of producing a mechassault game for the xbox 360 but the low expected sales of the property and internal politics of first party microsoft development studios saw the game put on ice. Then they collapsed the studio as a cost cutting measure. Microsoft still owns the IP, and doesn't seem willing to invest the funds to make a functional first party game under the liscence at the moment.

Yes, they shut down FASA Interactive but then lisenced the rights to Tinker & Smith.

BYE

Yeah, but it really depends on the relationship between microsoft and the studio licensing. They can license an IP for legal purposes without actually licensing it for production or development. Basically holding it on the burner with a sideline studio so that in the event that they decide to publish they can have avoid the process of organizing and providing capitol for a development house.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mattlov wrote:Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game, where 40K is just a dice game with minis.
...
40K has more to do with Yahtzee at times than tactical combat.

Simulation of what? 40+ ton giant robots armored in unobtainium armed with pseudoscience hypertechnology guns?

You mean like an Eldar titan?

CBT is a little more grounded in reality than every race in 40K except the Guard. And they are a step back in evolution.

Don't worry folks.

DD has made it quite clear that he doesn't even know what BattleTech is (he thinks Dark Age is BTech 2nd Ed for Christ's sake), so it's best to ignore him on this and every other issue he's ever involved in.

Shummy wrote:Yeah, but it really depends on the relationship between microsoft and the studio licensing. They can license an IP for legal purposes without actually licensing it for production or development. Basically holding it on the burner with a sideline studio so that in the event that they decide to publish they can have avoid the process of organizing and providing capitol for a development house.

Ok great. I don't care. I'll let you 'win' this one as well, just stop trying to counter anything everyone says for the sake of winning. This isn't an argument.

BYE

Ok great. I don't care. I'll let you 'win' this one as well, just stop trying to counter anything everyone says for the sake of winning. This isn't an argument.

...

I wasn't arguing anything...

Mattlov wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mattlov wrote:Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game,

Simulation of what? 40+ ton giant robots armored in unobtainium armed with pseudoscience hypertechnology guns?

You mean like an Eldar titan?

CBT is a little more grounded in reality than every race in 40K except the Guard. And they are a step back in evolution.

Sure. Tho I'm still curious in what reality do we have flying giant robots armed with PPCs?

Mechwarrior is grounded in reality, it just isn't cohesive. As a quick example the mechs use a series of myomer muscles to actuate their legs and arms. Yet the mech designs themselves show that as clearly impossible, instead having been designed for giant servomotors or hydraulics. There are tons of little inconsistencies within the setting like this.

It also ignores common sense alot in order to turn an interesting universe into a cohesive game about giant robots. 40k uses a lot of sci fi physics and has the warp as sort of an ex machina explanation for a lot of things, but the game itself is grounded in a more realistic sense than battletech.

ShumaGorath wrote:I wasn't arguing anything...

See, now you're arguing the fact that you weren't arguing. Does it never stop!!!!!!



BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:It also ignores common sense alot in order to turn an interesting universe into a cohesive game about giant robots. 40k uses a lot of sci fi physics and has the warp as sort of an ex machina explanation for a lot of things, but the game itself is grounded in a more realistic sense than battletech.

Exactly. We're talking about giant robot battles and warp daemons. When people start asserting that as "reality", I kind of have to wonder.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Sure. Tho I'm still curious in what reality do we have flying giant robots armed with PPCs?

There aren't any flying robots in BattleTech.

Seriously John, stop talking about BTech. You're clueless about it - even more clueless than everything else you're clueless about.

BYE

Well neither game is realistic at all, 40k is unrealistic because of the fantastical setting and the near magical level of technology. Battletech is unrealistic because it forces assumptions in order to be a functioning game. Realistically a mech isn't a good combat platform, and can't actually physically have more armor than a tank. But for the sake of the game they do in CBT. They also utilize "ablative armor" which doesn't really exist, and while possible in an armor system designed to deflect directed energy attacks it wouldn't do anything to ballistic weapons.

It's a cool setting, but really there are very few interesting sci fi settings that are grounded totally in reality and actual possibilities and sense.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yeah, but it really depends on the relationship between microsoft and the studio licensing. They can license an IP for legal purposes without actually licensing it for production or development. Basically holding it on the burner with a sideline studio so that in the event that they decide to publish they can have avoid the process of organizing and providing capitol for a development house.

Actually, no, they can't do that. Licensing implicitly authorizes the rights to development. What studio would ever pay to hold onto a license they could never actually use?

ShumaGorath wrote: They also utilize "ablative armor" which doesn't really exist, and while possible in an armor system designed to deflect directed energy attacks it wouldn't do anything to ballistic weapons.

Actually it does. It's called reactive armor. And it does indeed work on ballistic weapons.

ShumaGorath wrote:
It's a cool setting, but really there are very few interesting sci fi settings that are grounded totally in reality and actual possibilities and sense.

Then why are you debating the 'realism' of the setting?

dogma wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yeah, but it really depends on the relationship between microsoft and the studio licensing. They can license an IP for legal purposes without actually licensing it for production or development. Basically holding it on the burner with a sideline studio so that in the event that they decide to publish they can have avoid the process of organizing and providing capitol for a development house.

Actually, no, they can't do that. Licensing implicitly authorizes the rights to development. What studio would ever pay to hold onto a license they could never actually use?

As an example interplay and the licensed agreement to develop the fallout MMO. They do not have the capitol, manpower, or really anything else required to do so. So they are essentially sitting on the license until it is released back to bethesda. Squatting a license has value. Larger companies like EA or microsoft will "assign" an IP to a development house through licensing but not ok the production of a title. They do this so that the development house can stay small and work on concepts and ideas cheaply until the big wigs decide that they want to begin development of a game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

As an example interplay and the licensed agreement to develop the fallout MMO. They do not have the capitol, manpower, or really anything else required to do so. So they are essentially sitting on the license until it is released back to bethesda. Squatting a license has value. Larger companies like EA or microsoft will "assign" an IP to a development house through licensing but not ok the production of a title. They do this so that the development house can stay small and work on concepts and ideas cheaply until the big wigs decide that they want to begin development of a game.

Shummy, that is development. Just because the product is not in active production from a coding standpoint it does not follow that no development is done.

Actually it does. It's called reactive armor. And it does indeed work on ballistic weapons.

Reactive armor is not ablative armoring. The reactive portion of the reactive armor isn't actually armor at all, its an offensive countermeasure to lesson the force of an impact or negate it entirely.

Ablative armoring is armor that essentially absorbs an impact by releasing mass and redistributing the impact throughout the armor system. Sandbags are a good example of ablative armoring, as is the ground above an underground bunker. Unfortunately it's not a functional armor system so much as it's a natural by product of dirt.

Then why are you debating the 'realism' of the setting?

I wasn't they were and I chimed in.

Shummy, that is development. Just because the product is not in active production from a coding standpoint it does not follow that no development is done.

No thats deep pre production. The term Development in the gaming industry has similar analogues to the movie industry.

And that is why "hard" Sci Fi is difficult.

I just get a big laugh out of the old Battletech LAMs.

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ShumaGorath wrote:
No thats deep pre production. The term Development in the gaming industry has similar analogues to the movie industry.

Dude, development in the film industry is everything before the process of filming. The process of filming is referred to as production, and the cutting and editing that follows is post-production.

Read something and then make an argument.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And that is why "hard" Sci Fi is difficult.

I just get a big laugh out of the old Battletech LAMs.

I'm one of the biggest CBT honks and I laugh at LAMs. Those are the height of silliness.

Anyway, back on Topic.

What do you guys foresee from Catalyst Game Labs from this? I am on Battletech and ShadowRun forums all the time, but more curious as to what non-CGL people think.

While I'm on their BTech forums, I'll jump in here:

It depends how much of an initial outlay they put in. Say they get what they want, including HeroClix. HeroClix becomes their cash cow, and they use profits from that to fund other games.

If they don't get HeroClix, but get a bunch of others, suddenly they've got a whole heap of other games to support, they spent a lot of money trying to get them, and they're now over-extended.

I doubt it's as simple as that, and I'm sure that the people at CGL aren't Jervis... uhh... I mean aren't stupid, so they would have looked at what was worthwhile before jumping headfirst into a decision that could kill the company within a couple of years.

At the very least they should get ahold of the BTech and Shadowrun rights, making them the masters of their own game, rather than a company that has to check with WizKids on everything they do. HeroClix would be a great bonus as that gives them another successful income stream.

BYE

The definition of ablative armor is: "Armor which negates damage by being itself damaged or destroyed." For example, cars are designed with ablative crumple zones to protect passengers. Reactive armor is most certainly ablative as it serve to protect the vehicle encased in it, and is destroyed by the impact.

dogma

Ablative armor is armor designed to negate damage by itself being damaged or destroyed through the process of ablation. In contemporary spacecraft, ablative plating is most frequently seen as an ablative heat shield for a vehicle that must enter atmosphere from orbit, such as on nuclear warheads, or space vehicles like the Mars Pathfinder probe. The idea is also commonly encountered in science fiction.

wikipedia.com

Ablation is defined as the removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes. The term occurs in space physics associated with atmospheric reentry, in glaciology, medicine and passive fire protection.

wikipedia.com

An element of explosive reactive armour consists of a sheet or slab of high explosive sandwiched between two plates, typically metal, called the reactive or dynamic elements. On attack by a penetrating weapon, the explosive detonates, forcibly driving the metal plates apart to damage the penetrator. Against a shaped charge, the projected plates disrupt the metallic jet penetrator, effectively providing a greater path-length of material to be penetrated. Against a long rod penetrator, the projected plates serve to deflect and break up the rod.

wikipedia.com

Ablative armoring is armor that is designed to be destroyed, but in doing so protects that which is underneath the armor. Reactive armor is armoring which upon impact destroys itself to create a forcefull blast which dampens the impact and redirects the force of energy. They appear very similar but reactive armor most certainly isn't ablative. It would have to absorb the force placed into it and in doing so be destroyed to be ablative. It doesn't do that.

By that definition all armor is ablative. Even steel plate takes its strength from that material's capacity to resist permanent distortion. Something which happens as a result of a tempering process that lends a combination of rigidity (promoting deflection), and flexibility (promoting the spread of force).

Actually by that definition steel most certainly is not ablative as it is designed to deflect shots and redirect energy throughout the reinforcement of the plating. If steel armor were ablative the plate would have to be destroyed in absorbing the energy, steel armor is designed to reflect it.

Why any of this matters, I don't know. The ablative armor in battletech isn't reactive.

Dude, development in the film industry is everything before the process of filming. The process of filming is referred to as production, and the cutting and editing that follows is post-production.

Read something and then make an argument.

Actually thats pretty close, which is why I used the analogy. I said it had similar analogues, not that it was the same thing. The pre development phase of a game that is utilised by studios assigned to squat an IP is essentially little more than a once a week meeting by a few lads on the prospective team fleshing out possible ideas for the type of game or making resolutions on possible methods of hiring when the signal to begin development is given.

If you consider that entire process to be development then cool. I don't. Especially when in a large portion of such cases no go ahead is ever given and the license ends.

Deleted to preserve thread.

The tactical affect of ablative armor is the production of a reactive force which serves to nominally dissipate incoming force.

Thats the tactical effect of all armor. Remember, you're the one bringing the terminology into the realm of absolute physics here, so technically the opposing force of the armors inertial mass is acting against the force of the incoming round.

What ablative armor is is armor that takes hits, loses a piece of itself, and keeps on trucking. Does reactive armor do that? Not really since reactive armor isn't really even armor in the barest sense, it's an offensive defensive countermeasure that is more in line with an antimissile system then it is a piece of armoring. It's more than capable of damaging the platform it rests on if it's set off by the likes of an antimaterial rifle which would normally be unable to damage the exterior of the vehicle. Reactive armor redirects the force of an oncomming blast by producing another small blast, armor doesn't work reactively except for the in barest most literal sense. It's called armor because it's a defensive measure and sure if taken literally it can be armor.

The english language breaks down under close scrutiny like this. Which is why arguing terms like this doesn't really work. It just debases the argument. Reactive armor isn't considered ablative. I'm willing to leave it at that for the same reason that I don't think that steel armor is ablative.

Steel releases mass when impacted, not much, but it does. Also, it distributes force throughout the material when impacted, not much, but it does. If you wish to regard sandbags as an example of ablative armor, an example which you provided, then this is the only definition which you could have been using. And it was clearly that definition which I was attacking.

If you're going to be that obtuse about it fine, yeah. All armor is ablative. Atomic decomposition means that all things are losing a relative amount of mass at all times so I guess my definition isn't sound. You win this round captain superliteral.

The go ahead being production. You may have used the analogy because you felt it was similar, but you were wrong. Because the analog you supplied directly contradicted your point that development is 'deep pre-production'

But it is similar. Its just not the same. An orange and a basketball are both spheres but a basketball doesn't taste good just because an orange does. And they are both orange. All analogies fail if taken the wrong way.



Anyway, I've got kind of a stomach ache and I want to go play left 4 dead so I'm just gonna give you the last point. I imagine it will be well written and scathing. I will be shooting zombies.

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I forgot I still had to download the game (stupid steam X.X ).

The only people that don't consider reactive armor ablative are sci-fi writers and Ironman fans.

Also wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_armor

Ablative armor is distinct from the concept of reactive armor, which uses a sandwich layer of explosives to disrupt the thrust of armor piercing ammunition, and is actually in common use in modern armored vehicles.

But hey, wikipedia isn't as good a source as you are. So I'm just wrong here.

You don't get it. Not all armor is ablative. My point is that, under your ridiculous definition, that would be the case. This is called Reductio Ad Absurdum, a style of argument commonly used to expose overly specific categorical definitions.

You started the word games. Don't just quit because you can't keep up.

I gave a lose and commonly held definition. You started the word games sir.

Not at all true Shumy. Anti-missile counter-measures are defined by their reliance on active sensor acquisition systems, and point targeting. Something which reactive armor bypasses by literally coating the tank in explosive, ablative panels. Only a small number of which actually expire with each strike. Meaning that the system as whole 'keeps on trucking'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countermeasure

A countermeasure is a system (usually for a military application) designed to prevent sensor-based weapons from acquiring and/or destroying a target.

Countermeasures that alter the electromagnetic, acoustic or other signature(s) of a target thereby altering the tracking and sensing behavior of an incoming threat (e.g., guided missile) are designated softkill measures.

Measures that physically counterattack an incoming threat thereby destroying/altering its payload/warhead in such a way that the intended effect on the target is majorly impeded are designated hardkill measures.

An example of a Hardkill countermeasure is the reactive armour found on many modern armoured vehicles.

I guess its a hardkill countermeasure. Sorry for the mixup.

Also just because it bugs me shaped charges explode in all directions, but the hollow inner frame directs the lions share of the explosive towards the target through a mix of refraction and tamping. Its not a magic "only explode one way" device. Its just a conical lump of explosives with a hollow section.

I'm not arguing that video game and movie production are dissimilar enterprises. I'm arguing that your interpretation of both of those enterprises is wrong.

Not really, your arguing that I have no idea what I'm talking about and are giving an opinion to support it. You have yet to site anything except a wiki article that actually supported my analogy and then said it was wrong because two similar things are not identical. You're doing what I do which is mix up stated opinion and fact with ad hominim and prickling. But you aren't doing what I normally do which is substantiate my opinions with links and common sense and you're doing a lot more prickling then i usually manage.

You're doing well for yourself though, I'm actually a little stymied and I'm worried that your next post may actually start to state some sort of fact somewhere and counter all of my links and direct quotes. Keep at it!

Download at 43%! Soon i shall be kill zombies!

Deleted to preserve thread.

Many armor materials, when struck with a ballistic projectile, tend to dissipate much of the projectile's kinetic energy by ablating small fragments and particles from the body of the armor itself. At the same time that many of the projectile fragments continue substantially on their original trajectory, another portion of the bullet fragments, as well as a portion of the ablated armor fragments, are reflected back by the hardened component of the armor in a direction substantially opposite to the bullet's original trajectory. This shower of "splashback" fragments can be enhanced by confining the hard material in such a way that fragments ablated from the surface of the armor have no other path of travel other than substantially opposite to the bullet's original trajectory. Ablation, as used in this invention, is defined in the following paragraph. The action of these fragments serves to further erode the bullet into small fragments. Many of these splashback particles and fragments have a velocity component as high as one half of the projectile's velocity at impact. The splashback comprising bullet fragments and ablated armor fragments forms a relatively high-velocity spray of material which serves as one reactive method for incapacitating an assailant.

Ahh, finally! You actually post something worth reading. In skimming over the patent directive I passed that part and it's a pretty interesting design for personal body armor. Unfortunatly it doesn't describe reactive armor in the sense we were discussing, because it's an entirely different item built on different technology and utilising different concepts to stop a different threat. Tanks were already pretty immune to bullets. But yeah, in this sense ablative armor can exist, though those concepts don't scale well.

Ablative armor is only considered as such when the 'ablation' is used to directly oppose the force of the projectile. The 'spreading' of force has nothing to do with it.

Which flies in the face of every other definition of ablative but ok. Patent documents certainly don't have the final word on definitions.

Not really. You chose to consider sand bags as ablative armor. Which is a poor analogy at best. You also provided a definition which isn't consistent with the sources (wikipedia) you have cited. Which betrays an intent to win rather than an intent to learn.

The lose definition I gave fit with all of the wikepedia examples.

Yes, but the detonation isn't significant. The damage to vehicle is negligible to non-existent because it isn't even the explosion that does the work, but the molten metal ejected from the charge. Which only goes in one direction, away from the tank.

However the damage to the paneling and the cost of replacement as well as the shrapnel risk to escourts or civilians makes it a poor armor. There is also the chance of shrapnel damaging more vulnerable portions of the tank like lights and mounted weapons. Either way, it isn't magic one way explosion.

Pre-production. Preparations are made for the shoot, in which cast and crew are hired, locations are selected, and sets are built.
Production. The raw elements for the finished film are recorded

I think I mentioned deep pre production as the tossing around of ideas and the preparation of hires. That would include the interview process and the acceptance of resumes.

Facts? Wikipedia facts? Right.

It's about as good as your patent citation. Which I'll note mentions abative reactive armoring once in a very specific patent design which uses ablation as the form of reaction. The shrapnel from a bullets impact is not equivalent to a panel of explosive designed to detonate on impact and destroy the incoming projectile while redirecting the kinetic force. It follows a similar cause and effect, but that does not make them the same.


Anyway, Zombie killin' time! You should come play, you seem stressed.

Mattlov wrote:

BigToof wrote:

Osbad wrote:Personally I think the issue with Battletech is that it is "very popular" with some people, who love it a *lot*, but it is not "widely popular".

And those people who love the system are usually the ones who already have all the rules, models, etc. Since the game is essentially unchanged since it came out in the 80's, and that's considered to be one of it's strengths, there are no new rules, units, etc. I've heard that the new owners have added in a new faction, but most people still stick with the classics. So while it's very popular, that popularity doesn't necessarily translate into sales.

Seems to translate well enough into them being confident they have the cash and ability to acquire many of WizKids properties...

Could be, I wish them all the success in the world. CBT was my second wargame, right after SJ Games CarWars. However, I've also seen the property change hands a couple of times in recent years, and the system has remained relatively static, so I wonder what's going to drive sales. One of the advantages has always been the low buy in, ie you buy the rules once and your done. However, that doesn't translate well into a continued revenue stream for the owners.

Battletech has a big advantage over 40K and that is a more solid base of fans. 40K has simple rules so that they can get the younger kids to buy with parent money and play. Battletech relies on a constant system that hasn't invalidated itself with rule changes over the course of it's existence.

Hmmmm..... I've seen a LOT more people playing 40k in recent years than Battletech. I agree with you that the two systems have followed differing paths, with Battletech remaining simplier, while 40K has meandered all over the place, and being trimmed, pruned, and shaped from time to time by it's minders.

Battletech is an actual tactical simulation game, where 40K is just a dice game with minis. There is no flanking in 40K, just shooting from a different angle. maneuvering behind an opponent doesn't actually give you an advantage in 40K over shooting them from any other angle. Battletech uses tactics with a decent (not perfect) sense of reality to make an excellent simulation of combat. 40K has more to do with Yahtzee at times than tactical combat.

Now that's just uncalled for. Battletech has it's own share of silly rules, tactical no brainers, and unbalancing effects. I've played both systems, and there's a good deal of tactics in both, otherwise I wouldn't play them. Frankly, I think that since I play Orks 40k has a slight edge when it comes to dice rolling, since I can roll enough dice to count on a statistical mean, while a couple of good or bad rolls can ruin a mech in short order in CBT.

Well, I have lots of Battletech stuff. I have some mechs on my painting desk right now as it happens, dug out of my box of shame. Plenty of books, and I still play ocasionally. I have not bought anything Battletech related in at least 5 years and don't feel any compulsion to do so. It's basically a complete game.

Deleted to preserve thread.

Speaking of sportsclix I was the rage of the entire FLGS when I used a team to battle captain america and the avengers. I managed to beat the captain and then got to 2nd place in the tournament

Why are you two carrying on a pissing match like this in an open forum? If you two really need to see who can out-wit who, just take it to PM. I can hear the lock stomping this way. I mean hey, you folks wanna go at it hammer and tongs over these things thats fine, more power to you. There are worse uses for the internet. But how many people are going to actually read through all that gak you've posted?

Yeah, you're right. I removed everything I felt was unnecessary.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There aren't any flying robots in BattleTech.

LAMs and/or jump jets?

Setting-wise, BT probably is a significant few steps harder than 40k's universe. Unfortunately truly 'hard' settings tend to be boring, so a few deviations from reality are generally allowed. BT tries to make it's exceptions minimal, while 40k revels in them.

Neither option is 'better.'

Balance wrote:LAMs and/or jump jets?

LAMs haven't been part of BTech for well over a decade if not longer (thanks to the whole Harmony Gold issue), and Jump Jets don't make 'Mechs fly. They're just crude plasma jets that push a 'Mech in a direction and (hopefully) slow its fall enough so that it doesn't break when it lands. JJ's are described as brute force vs physics, not flying.

BYE

I, uh, actually kinda liked the LAMs, but part of my attraction to Battletech was the macross thing. Big stompy robots being stompy! Woo-hoo!

It's a good game and hope it continues. In the meantime, I'll pick up some more Mechwarrior stuff cheap to use as 10mm scale battletech (or other sci-fi).

And for people who want 'realistic' scifi gaming, Stargrunt or Dirtside are supposed to be the bee's knees in that regard.

I liked the Macross imports, too. When BT moved away from them, that is when BT became the suck.

Please God, someone make him stop talking...

BYE

Haha, HMBC, you're terrible to poor DD, but he's not all wrong. The Macross and Dougram imports did make some truly cool minis before Battletech got quite so 'hard'... I admit that my experience in Battletech really blossomed during the civil war (even tho I typically preferred being a Kuritan), but the early stuff always seemed pretty rad as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Please God, someone make him stop talking...

BYE

I hate to agree with him, but the best mech designs CBT had were the ones they stole.



Honestly. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT.

That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

I, too, am a fan of the classic unseen designs. Sure, they were stolen, but that was what caught my eye to begin with. And FASA certainly took the designs and made them work in a much more gritty universe than the original source material. That is not to say that there haven't been good designs that were original, and to be perfectly honest, I actually like the 3025 Commando. It's an iconic Lyran 'mech to me. The 3050 Clan 'mechs, as a whole, represent some really great designs that have since become an inseparable part of the CBT universe.

As for LAMs, I am glad they are gone. The truth is that they were broken. Giving up 10% of your mass to permanently gain a Gunnery advantage over your opponent was too easy to do. Sure, it required a skilled pilot to so without making the game last 10 hours, but always getting to hit your opponent on lower numbers than he could hit you was just too big of an advantage.

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

Yes, God bless japan.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Please God, someone make him stop talking...

BYE

I hate to agree with him, but the best mech designs CBT had were the ones they stole.



Honestly. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT.

Am I the only one who see the irony in the fact that ShumaGorath chose to show a Commando when he said that they're best designs were the one's that they 'stole'? Well guess what, they did not 'steal' the Commando. That's an in-house, original design from FASA.

I know, I was showing a terrible design... I even made a humorous and over reactionary comment under it..

That's not what you wrote...

I love the commando, one of my favorite mechs. I also love the gritty, "hard" sci-fi edge of CBT. I also love small furry animals, but only when it gets cold enough, which it's definitely doing right now.

I said the best CBT designs were the ones they stole, then I showed one of their worst in house designs to enunciate my point. I should have been clearer I guess.

Yeah, I wouldn't call the ones they stole (and they didn't steal them either, but that's another story for another time) the 'best' designs.

Things like the Griffon, Wolverine, Crusader - they were all crap. The Thunderbolt is the worst of them (have you seen the miniature? Uuhgg... it's like metal Possessed Marines bad).

The Marauder is also really stupid looking, but has the nostalgic awesomeness. The best design was the Warhammer, and the current one can't hold a candle to it sadly.

But the Commando as your example Shummy? The Commando is a great little thing (the artwork you posted isn't, but we've already established that the earlier TRO artwork was pretty poor). There are far worse things tham the Commando (the Imp for example, or another one that looks like a tea-pot), and many, many better designs.

And as for John's typically inane comments (especially inane given he doesn't even understand BattleTech) - claiming that since the Macross designs left the game has 'sucked' is like saying since GW stopped making Chaos Dwarfs Warhammer has sucked.

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Haha, HMBC, you're terrible to poor DD, but he's not all wrong.

No. He always is. All the time.

Prometheum5 wrote:The Macross and Dougram imports did make some truly cool minis before Battletech got quite so 'hard'...

I'm not saying they didn't, what I'm disagreeing with is John utterly stupid notion that BTech w/o Macross Designs = Teh Suck! Actually, my example about Chaos Dwarfs is inadequate in showing just how silly John's assertion is.

Try this one instead:

Saying that BTech sucks since the Macross designs went bye bye is akin to saying 40K sucks since the the original Land Raider and Rhino artwork went bye bye.

And I'm not really sure when BTech became 'hard' sci-fi. They still have magical faster than light travel and a system of physics that doesn't make sense - often called FASA-physics or FASyics. They don't even have mobile telephones...

Prometheum5 wrote:I admit that my experience in Battletech really blossomed during the civil war (even tho I typically preferred being a Kuritan), but the early stuff always seemed pretty rad as well.

Some of it. Once again, ignoring the artwork from the early TRO's (so TRO 3025, TRO 2750 and TRO 3050), there were a lot of great designs. The only really truly bad set of designs came from TRO 3055. You look at them and wonder 'What were they thinking?'. They've improved them a bit since then with the rerelease of 3055, but they're still some screwy artwork in there - sometimes a bad design can't be prettied up.

And their attempts at redoing some of the old stuff has been hit-and-miss. Some of them, like their redone Warhammer, doesn't really capture the menace of the original one. Their Marauder might as well be a different machine. It's not bad, but it's not a Marauder. Things like the Crusader and Shadow Hawk got better, the Phoenix Hawk looks great, the Locust is basically the same, and the Thunder Bolt is very cool, leaps and bounds above its hunchbacked malformed anime origins.

BYE

Alright, you raise some fair points... I definitely think that even with the shoddy artwork the Unseen era was better than the current tho... the Dark-Age and anorexic spikey designs of the current age have just utterly killed CBT for me... after the civil war most of the fun and interest in the fluff just seemed to evaporate, and I was sorely disappointed with the Project Phoenix designs and most of the models.

BT could also have done very well with a more customizable miniatures system. The omni-mechs tried to provide modelers with more to do without hard resculpting and hacking, but then you have the hacks that say the Clans killed BT, so what are you gonna do?

ut the Commando as your example Shummy? The Commando is a great little thing

But its a little man made of boxes and random lines with a hat! It's one of the silliest designs in all of CBT.

I probably should have posted the urbanmech though. The walking trashcan is classic.

All I know about BattleTech is the Mad Cat is so totally full of win, and anyone who disagrees needs to be drug out into the street and beat to within an inch of their life. Then stepped on by a Mad Cat.

Actually I liked the artwork from TRO 3025. The best artwork is in TRO 3057 and 3058 IMHO. All are from the same artist (Duane Loose).

ShumaGorath wrote:I probably should have posted the urbanmech though. The walking trashcan is classic.

You don't dare decry the holy name of the UrbanMech!!!!

Everyone loves the Urbie. It's a piece of junk, but it is so much fun!!

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Alright, you raise some fair points... I definitely think that even with the shoddy artwork the Unseen era was better than the current tho... the Dark-Age and anorexic spikey designs of the current age have just utterly killed CBT for me... after the civil war most of the fun and interest in the fluff just seemed to evaporate, and I was sorely disappointed with the Project Phoenix designs and most of the models.

Some of the Dark Age designs are bad, you're right there.

But don't let the presence of the Dark Age Era ruin it for you. Dark Age is a destination - somewhere many, many years off in CBT's future. For the moment, we've had the end of the Civil War all the way through to the Jihad, which is about halfway through now, and that's being written by the guys who have always written BTech's fluff, so it's good!

The Phoenix Designs were a compromise. Some of them are definate hits (the Marauder II looks scary, the Locust is a virtual copy, the Thunder Bolt is great), some were 'meh' like the Marauder, and some were no where near as good as the originals (Warhammer's a big one here, except the Warhammer IIC, which is a lovley model).

Prometheum5 wrote:BT could also have done very well with a more customizable miniatures system. The omni-mechs tried to provide modelers with more to do without hard resculpting and hacking, but then you have the hacks that say the Clans killed BT, so what are you gonna do?

BTech could've done with a massive privatley own miniature production company... but what they've got is a group with 3 permanant staff, some people who help out with the casting in their free time, and a stack of free-lance sculptors. Omni-Parts are coming - they've made parts for about 5 Clan Omni-Mechs and have another 12 or so awaiting release - but sadly Iron Wind Metals isn't Citadel Miniatures.

BYE

I know the Omni-mech parts are in the works and that the BT sculptor pool is small... I used to be a big member over at Lords of the Battlefield and loved to see what was in the pipeline and chat with some of the guys working on it.

But don't let the presence of the Dark Age Era ruin it for you. Dark Age is a destination - somewhere many, many years off in CBT's future. For the moment, we've had the end of the Civil War all the way through to the Jihad, which is about halfway through now, and that's being written by the guys who have always written BTech's fluff, so it's good!

I think the problem here is really just a personal one... I don't like it when an established universe that I'm attached to undergoes a drastic change from what I love most of the time. It's a neurosis and I know it, but when the Wobblies started dropping nukes I lost alot of my passion for the CBT universe. Maybe that's why I like 40k so much, the universe is totally static and the fluff is basically stagnant

BattleTech at one time did have a good sized company producing their miniatures for them called Ral Partha. However as Partha became more dependent on FASA for their profits in heyday of M:TG, FASA forced Partha to sell the company to them or else they'd pull the BattleTech line that kept them afloat. Three years after that, FASA themselves closed killing not only themselves but Ral Partha as well. Iron Wind Metals basically had to start again from scratch, but with the long term BattleTech deal, along with acquiring the B5Wars line seems to be poised to move up the ladder again.

It was sad to see Partha die...

Yes it was, considering I'm in Cincinnati (N. KY actually) and I know two of the sculptors (John Winter and Jeff Wilhelm) back in the day. John Winter even played 40K and WHFB down at the FLGS and I have a nice Dwarf Standard Bearer and Anvil of Doom painted by him.

My Uncle's a huge RalPartha fantasy goof so he still pines over their demise.

I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC or Shuma & Dogma, but mostly because I'm one of the few sci fi guys who thinks that giant humanoid war machines are a bit silly. Which upsets me, because there is clearly plenty of choices for people into miniatures games involving giant war droids.

AS for the differences in setting, I think it's like Aristotle wrote. Audience's believe the impossible before the they believe the improbable. Having demons appear out of the warp is impossible, while having giant walking mechs is incredibly improbable. Both type of settings work well, but the improbable setting can often seem more familiar: after all nearly all the rules are the same. The 40k universe is so alien to us that it's hard to really relate.

Partha UK still exists as far as I know. Lemme check...

Yep, here they are. And their online store. Not the same as it once was, obviously, but the name is still out there. I think they probably act more as the European distrubutor for the stuff that Iron Wind makes.

And Polonius, there's no pulls between DD and myself. There's simply the stuff the Supreme Black Hole Of Anti-Intelligence says, and then me reacting to it... and then nothing as he can't fight his own battles and chose to ignore me. This is fine though. I'm quite happy for him not to see my posts. Way more fun that way.

BYE

Yep, Ral Partha Europe is a separate company. You can read a little of the company's background here. Also check out this article about Partha's early days. The part about the cat using the linotype box as its kitty-litter box is hilarious.

Ah! That explains the E-mails I've received from Mike Noe. Thanks Ghaz!

BYE

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

Polonius wrote:I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC

Given that I choose not to interact with or otherwise respond to HMBC, there isn't any tractor pull.

Nevertheless, it amuses me that I figure so prominently in his life that he would even continue to pay any attention to me at all.
____

Hey, Monkey-Boy: Dance, Monkey, Dance!

dogma wrote:
Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

I think in part there may be confusion because as Americans 'mecha' means "big stompy robots" while the Japanese description includes a much wider range of mechanical devices at all sizes.

Ghaz wrote:Yes it was, considering I'm in Cincinnati (N. KY actually) and I know two of the sculptors (John Winter and Jeff Wilhelm) back in the day. John Winter even played 40K and WHFB down at the FLGS and I have a nice Dwarf Standard Bearer and Anvil of Doom painted by him.

Ditto, I've had a number of gaming buddies make trips down to the shop to take a tour and buy some stuff at cost. It always sounded SO cool to me, I totally wanted to go, but sadly didn't make it before FASA effectively pulled the plug.

Polonius wrote:I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC or Shuma & Dogma, but mostly because I'm one of the few sci fi guys who thinks that giant humanoid war machines are a bit silly. Which upsets me, because there is clearly plenty of choices for people into miniatures games involving giant war droids.

Agreed, giant walking robots are a bit silly, but then so is most of 40k. However, it's a LOT of fun, so I sort of put on my imagining cap, and enjoy the game. (I also tend to avoid using the "real" tanks in CBT because then the suspension of disbelief becomes even harder)

I just feel that MEcha, much like Steampunk is not a particularly inspiring source.

I remember how exciting it was when our local Commando was going to the IWM HQ for a visit and could bring us back stuff on the cheap... I'd love to go out there and check it out myself.

Mecha is definitely a niche market... 'realistic' fighting war-machines as opposed to some Gundam and the super-robot genres are even more-so niche. It's not for everyone, but I don't think any real 'hard' mecha fan can argue with CBT's approach.

Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

BTech just kind of rolled with this. The biggest advantage of the BTech mecha seems to be the powerplants, but there's no reason they can't be put in larger ground vehicles.

40k, of course, goes a step beyond this as there's Dreadnought-class walkers (including Sentinels and such... Bigger than a man, but still on an comparatively small scale) up through Titans (which range from 'Huge' to 'Oh My!' in size.) 40k, of course, basically says "but it's cool!" to any complaints it's not realistic. This works, of course.

Mattlov wrote:There is no flanking in 40K, just shooting from a different angle. maneuvering behind an opponent doesn't actually give you an advantage in 40K over shooting them from any other angle.

Yes, because all vehicles have the same armour value on their front/rear/side.. Wait a minute!

Balance wrote:Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

BTech just kind of rolled with this. The biggest advantage of the BTech mecha seems to be the powerplants, but there's no reason they can't be put in larger ground vehicles.

40k, of course, goes a step beyond this as there's Dreadnought-class walkers (including Sentinels and such... Bigger than a man, but still on an comparatively small scale) up through Titans (which range from 'Huge' to 'Oh My!' in size.) 40k, of course, basically says "but it's cool!" to any complaints it's not realistic. This works, of course.

In original Battletech if you put a Mech power plant in a tank you got such as superior fighting vehicle it was ridiculous.

Apart from anything else, tanks can't fall over.

However the point about mechs is the kewl factor.

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

Well, there are a *few* guys who are well-known for their mecha (giant robot) design ability:
- Mamoru Nagano (my favorite) does Five Star Stories, along with Brain Powrd, and other stuff
- Hajime Katoki did a number of groundbreaking things in MS-Gundam (Dendrobium, Sazabi), Virtual On
- Yukata Izubuchi did my favorite "Gundam" - MS-18E Kampfer, along with Rune Masquer

And there are others. Often times, a show / movie will select a particular designer for a particular "look" or "style" that hey want to convey. But there aren't a lot of these guys, and they'll do other stuff, as there are only so many mecha-related series active at any given time.

Balance wrote:Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

For "realistic" giant robots, you typically see things like:
- AT VOTOMS
- Gasaraki Tactical Armor
- Heavy Gear
These are smaller robots, with requisite legs like elephants and giant feet to deal with the square-cube mass rules and ground pressure. They're still silly, but might be feasible.

Giant robots only work because they can (theoretically) go places that tanks can't go - rough terrain / cross country. That's the only real advantage of a humanoid layout.

Aside from the sheer cool factor that stimulates the imagination.

Of course, there's also Patlabor (sort of, maybe, as it frequently pokes fun at the inherent silliness of giant robots while reveling in the silliness).

You forgot Kawamori and Kam. Miyazaki of Macross fame... Kawamori is all over the place, and while his main fame tends to be in the series he writes and the universes he creates as a writer, he has serious clout as a 'mecha-designer' for Armored Core, Gundam (MY favorite Gundam design, the GP-01/FB is by Kawamori) and various other series (including Crusher Joe, which ALSO had designs used in Battletech).

I myself am a huge VOTOMS sucker for its down-to-earth portrayal of the 'walking tank' ethos. Someday I'll find a copy of Gasakari to watch, bc/ those designs are awesome as well.

@Promethium - my design ethos is different from yours, so I'm not as huge on Kawamori, although I do appreciate his AC work.

Similarly, I'm not huge on Fujita.

But we all have to give regard to Okawara for getting the ball rolling.

Prometheum5 wrote:You forgot Kawamori and Kam. Miyazaki of Macross fame... Kawamori is all over the place, and while his main fame tends to be in the series he writes and the universes he creates as a writer, he has serious clout as a 'mecha-designer' for Armored Core, Gundam (MY favorite Gundam design, the GP-01/FB is by Kawamori) and various other series (including Crusher Joe, which ALSO had designs used in Battletech).

I myself am a huge VOTOMS sucker for its down-to-earth portrayal of the 'walking tank' ethos. Someday I'll find a copy of Gasakari to watch, bc/ those designs are awesome as well.

Kawamoris designs are quite neat to look at, but I blame him and the gundam trend for the total lack of "realism" in eastern mech designs. They are basically giant men in suits of ornate armor.

ShumaGorath wrote:Kawamoris designs are quite neat to look at, but I blame him and the gundam trend for the total lack of "realism" in eastern mech designs. They are basically giant men in suits of ornate armor.

That's the point! Gundam are basically designed after classical Samurai armor.

I know, it was cool in gundam. Unfortunately every other copycat show in the era picked up on the design (current vogue in the style is european medieval armor!). It's a case of much too much of an ok thing.

This is why I prefer the renditions used in BTech and things like it - big clunky things that don't dance around in the air like giant people.

The physics that governt BTech are very silly, but the ones in anime are worse...

BYE

The difference being gundam is a series of anime television shows for children and teens. Also if anyone remembers the old battletech show then I don't need to finish this sentence.

Ah c'mon. It had ancient 3D animation. And characters with strange names and even stranger hair-cuts.

What's weird though is that's part of the canon. Not the specifics of what happened (they're referred to In-Universe as a low-rating, badly received holodramatisation of real events), but the characters and the general plotline of what happened.

Heck, Adam Steiner, the main character from the show, is the current leader of the whole Lyran Alliance at the moment!!

BYE

You know all the episodes for it (and street sharks) are on youtube. Its amazing what you can get away with when its a property no one cares about.

I've seen the first one on there. It ranks in the 'so bad its good' category for me.

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:The difference being gundam is a series of anime television shows for children and teens.

Someone's never seen the original Japanese versions of Gundam. Definitely not made for teens/kids, just translated for them(and that's a stretch when you consider 0083, Zeta, and Char's Revenge) . Unless you mean Gundam Wannabe, I mean Wing, then you're spot on(in which case, why are you watching anything not UC anyway).

Transforming robot-jets. I don't know why you guys still get hard-ons for just regular old 'Mechs when the VF-1 Valkyrie and Starscream exist.

ShumaGorath wrote:You know all the episodes for it (and street sharks) are on youtube. Its amazing what you can get away with when its a property no one cares about

Hey man, Street Sharks are still jawesome.

stonefox wrote:Hey man, Street Sharks are still jawesome.

HATE(not the show, mind).

H.B.M.C. wrote:I've seen the first one on there. It ranks in the 'so bad its good' category for me.

BYE

The whole 14 episode series is like that. Invincible Clanners vs. tissue paper armored Inner Sphere 'Mechs. It really is awful.

It is also about 14 years old now, too.

Man I'm old.