The SW codex has been made available to GW staff for perusal/ feedback.

One of the store managers in Brisbane was going to download it today (so he didn't know what was in it when I was there).

Therefore it must be getting quite far into the development phase/final fixes.

That's new - when I worked for GW the staff were usually the last ones to know anything.

We certainly weren't given pre-release stuff and asked for input on it.


Does this herald a new dawn of playtesting? Will GW staff be able to spot the broken/nerfed stuff as easily as the rest of us?
And more importantly, will the dev team pay a blind bit of notice to any feedback they get?

It was unclear if it was the finished codex (ala the leaked PDFs we've been seeing for WHFB) or a beta for the codex (i.e. rules only).

Back in 1999/2000 when I was in the UK I had guys giving me every codex months in advance. I mailed the Tyranid codex 6 months in advance of release to Russ when dakka had a bricks and mortar store nd the only change was the pricing of the wings for the hive tyrant.

Its probably another BA style WD codex. Thus the design studio probably doesn't get to spend as much time on it as they otherwise would. This might just be preliminary to a full codex further up the road.

aka_mythos wrote:Its probably another BA style WD codex. Thus the design studio probably doesn't get to spend as much time on it as they otherwise would. This might just be preliminary to a full codex further up the road.

No it's a full up codex.

IIRC it's the rules/army list and not the final version which is a little way off yet.

Thank God it's not a WD Codex. I'd hate to see the Space Wolves pass us by without a Black Templar/Dark Angel style plastic conversion kit.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thank God it's not a WD Codex. I'd hate to see the Space Wolves pass us by without a Black Templar/Dark Angel style plastic conversion kit.

BYE

Oh come on, SWs got the first conversion kit ever.

I'd rather GW do a traitor IG conversion kit or something new.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thank God it's not a WD Codex. I'd hate to see the Space Wolves pass us by without a Black Templar/Dark Angel style plastic conversion kit.

BYE

I'd rather GW do a traitor IG conversion kit or something new.

if only ....

I wonder how GW will decide how much (if any) of the new kit from the SM Codex to give to Space Wolves.

Probably most of it will be in there (got to sell models!), thereby hacking off legions (!) of DA, and to a lesser extent, BA players.

And I'd have to imagine that the existing SW upgrade sprue will be re-cut, so possibly not even a fully new thing there either.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thank God it's not a WD Codex. I'd hate to see the Space Wolves pass us by without a Black Templar/Dark Angel style plastic conversion kit.

BYE

Oh come on, SWs got the first conversion kit ever.

I'd rather GW do a traitor IG conversion kit or something new.

Traitor guard? What's that? Everybody knows guard never ever go traitor (except in Apocalypse).

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Oh come on, SWs got the first conversion kit ever.

I'd rather GW do a traitor IG conversion kit or something new.

Yeah, 4 heads/1 helmet, 5 chest plates, one backpack, and some weapons any Marine could use. SWEET!

I want something a bit more "2008" in terms of content, not "2000".

dienekes96 wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Oh come on, SWs got the first conversion kit ever.

I'd rather GW do a traitor IG conversion kit or something new.

Yeah, 4 heads/1 helmet, 5 chest plates, one backpack, and some weapons any Marine could use. SWEET!

I want something a bit more "2008" in terms of content, not "2000".

d00d if you're talking Space Woofs you're looking for circa 1994 content.

Now if GW does a Celestial Lions or Relicators sprue I'd be on that like @#$% on @#$%.

Boo hoo, I want a BA sprue!

So someone beat up a store manager and get this stuff on here! Does this mean a SW codex is closer to done than we suspected?

God I hope so! I just painted up a whole army of SWs!

I guess GW just can't resist releasing a new marine codex every year. If its this next year I imagine its in the last half of the year.

It will be interesting to see what Space Wolves end up with. I just hope they make them more unique and not just a list of USRs. They will probably get something that will allow them to play 13th company, even if only in spirit and not in name. I don't imagine it will be the same sort of special character centric codex as the Marine Codex; how many ways can a single chapter vary itself. Special Character will probably do less of the granting army wide rules and go more for modifying individual squads (like granting infiltrate).

From the model side of it, I imagine they will redo the SW accessories sprue and probably do or include a vehicle accesories on a sprue. I would love to see them get a unique vehicle, now that everyone has venerable dreadnoughts, idk like a LandRaider with no sponsons but can hold 20 marines or just something. Some of the special characters will most likely get redone.

Without GW pulling a real rabbit out of the hat, I don't see there being too much to do, modelwise, for the SW. I doubt they have enough to get a second wave of releases.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The SW codex has been made available to GW staff for perusal/ feedback.

Therefore it must be getting quite far into the development phase/final fixes.

Wot? MOAR Spaz Marinz? Nuu....

Time-line, that puts SW as early 2009, which makes perfect sense. SW are the last Codex that requires the SM Codex, but having bitz sprue makes them an easy "new" Codex to release and break the last SM Codex dependency. A quick recut to match the BT sprue and repack takes care of the models (e.g. Blood Claws = 2 sets 5 Assault Marine bodies with SW accessories instead of JP accessories).

Plus, it explains why BA got their WD Codex update (not having a bitz sprue, BA need a quick rules fix, so prepping a full Codex with models doesn't make sense).

It also explains why GW doesn't care about current SW Codex changes tied to the new SM Codex.


I'll be curious to see the rules changes come out. I suspect that:
- no more 1 HQ per 500 pts
- Venerable Dread brought into line
- Grey Hunters gain Combat Squads
- Scouts get simplified, cannot be joined by ICs
- Wulfen appear ~BA DC
- 13th Company appear ~LotD
- NO Exterminator, but a new LR / Pred variant...
and of course, no Armoury / Wargear...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now if GW does a Relicators sprue I'd be on that like @#$% on @#$%.

Hell, yeah!

If GW actually did a Relictors army, I'd start one.

The idea of the return of a Bajorn The Fell Hand Model just fill me with glee.
After reading through the Space Marine Codex I now have a good feeling about how they will do Space Wolves. Now to wait. Some more. At least SW will get a Codex this edition.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The SW codex has been made available to GW staff for perusal/ feedback.

One of the store managers in Brisbane was going to download it today (so he didn't know what was in it when I was there).

Therefore it must be getting quite far into the development phase/final fixes.

Waaagh, you are a light in the darkness

I seriously doubt that SW will get Combat Squads. That was incorporated into the DA, BA and SM codices for fluff reasons. The SW don't follow the Codex Astartes.

Technically neither do the other Chapters you listed. At least, not strictly. I hope they don't though. It's a bit silly for a space wolves army (though they had it in 2nd edition).

Edit: Don't drink and type.

I think the biggest pit fall this codex has to avoid is the syndrom of "the main codex has it, so should the SW... but better." I think the Wulfen are a good alternative to SW having Stern- and Van-gard, adds some more uniqueness.

Who are all the current special characters for SW?

I doubt they'll get "combat squads" cause don't the SW have larger squad sizes for some units than the standard 10? it would make it a little pointless.

Good points!

SW's will probably not get Sternguard and/or Vanguard, but Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will get buffed somehow.

I can see them NOT getting the MotF and other tech marine toys too...

But something else in return?

I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

aka_mythos wrote:I think the biggest pit fall this codex has to avoid is the syndrom of "the main codex has it, so should the SW... but better."

That is what is called "the codex creep", the existence of which GW denies emphatically. But we all know it happens. Every new codex is usually a little bit more powerful than the last one.

Archonate wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the biggest pit fall this codex has to avoid is the syndrom of "the main codex has it, so should the SW... but better."

That is what is called "the codex creep", the existence of which GW denies emphatically. But we all know it happens. Every new codex is usually a little bit more powerful than the last one.

Not to derail this thread, but while codex creep happened in early 3rd edition it's been far less prevelent. Even in it's peak, it was mostly the "supplements" that caused the creep. Things like Blood angels being better than regular marines with no draw back, the craftworld eldar codex, etc.

Don't confuse "we haven't figured out how to beat them yet" with codex creep. additionally, dont' confuse being actually written for the environment with codex creep. Necrons aren't weaker because every other codex since them was stronger, they're weaker because glancing hits don't mean what they used to. IG still pay prices for their Chimeras as if they were scoring units.

I'm imagining Wolves will be pretty standalone, with few of the rules from the basic SM book. I can see them keeping ATSKNF, but everything else will be homegrown. Theses guys are more unorthodox than even the Templars. Of course, the existence of Templars is the real wrench in the works. Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars? How many mechanized, good in combat, large squad loving, codex astartes ignoring chapters do we really need?

From a rules perspective, I agree with a few of the above posters. No Sternguard or Rearguard, just flavors of Wolf Guard. No Combat Squads...that is a Codex thing.

Wolf Scouts will be special, and hopefully Wulfen will make a limited appearance (made less limited by a 13th Character build).

Special Characters currently:
Bjorn the Fell-Handed
Logan Grimnar
Ragnar Blackmane
Ulrik the Slayer

2nd edition had a few more, including Ranulf, Njal, and some ex-Wolf Kings.

BT is an odd one. The army is more about their visual appeal than a major rules difference. Their big thing is mixed squads (Scouts and Troops). I don't begrudge them their book, but do wish BA had gotten love first.

Time will tell, but I do look forward to a new SW model range and art.

I think any army done as standalone should really recieve as many characters as any other codex; I mean I hate to see them short change SW just because they're another marine army and the design staff can't be bothered to come up with unique rules for yet another character. If they're worth doing at all, they're worth giving them everything that they deserve.

If Wulfen or some unit like them isn't in the main body of the list, I could easily see them get a treatment similar to the Legion of the Damned, a special unit.

It'll be curious to see what GW does about the inclusion of Leman Russ tanks; I think the Exterminator is gone, but I could see them getting some other variant. I've always thought it would be appropriate to do away with SW's vindicator and predator options in lieu of Leman Russ Battle tanks and variants.

I bet that Wolfen will be elites with a chance to make them troops with a Special Character from the 13th Co.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

aka_mythos wrote:It'll be curious to see what GW does about the inclusion of Leman Russ tanks; I think the Exterminator is gone, but I could see them getting some other variant. I've always thought it would be appropriate to do away with SW's vindicator and predator options in lieu of Leman Russ Battle tanks and variants.

I think it'll depend largely upon whatever options are included in the rumored new Leman Russ kit put out for IG.

Polonius wrote:Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars? How many mechanized, good in combat, large squad loving, codex astartes ignoring chapters do we really need?

BT's were popular because of their Armageddon list. It was a powerful list that a lot of people liked. Problem is when they made the actual BT Codex, they toned them down quite a bit, making them not as powerful, and therefore not as popular, therefore Graham McNeil stopped writing Codices.

BYE

SW's developed the annihilator turret. I would be shocked! shocked! (There's gambling here? I'm shocked!) if they lose predators. I doubt they'd lose vindicators or whirlwinds either.

CSM get a defiler, maybe there's less resistance at GW to just giving SW all the Leman Russ tank variants. In third edition, I believe the thinking was giving marines a battlecannon was too powerful.

Could always let them take the Leman Russ Annihilator... or does that make the Predator redundant?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars? How many mechanized, good in combat, large squad loving, codex astartes ignoring chapters do we really need?

BT's were popular because of their Armageddon list. It was a powerful list that a lot of people liked. Problem is when they made the actual BT Codex, they toned them down quite a bit, making them not as powerful, and therefore not as popular, therefore Graham McNeil stopped writing Codices.

BYE

Oh boy, was the BT list good. I mean, you can tell the popularity was mostly (although certianly not entirely) due to performance on the table because you still see far more Dark Angel armies at tournaments (with a pants list) than you do Black Templars (with a list that's in no way bad).

I would take deathwing over current non land raider cheesefest templars any day. Without seven land raiders the templars just aren't that good, whereas deathwing despite all the downtalk can do very very well in certain matches. They are just more of a rock paper scissors army then most. I also personally know more Black Templar players then Dark Angel players. I personally think it comes down too how many people were starting armies around armageddon versus how many were starting them when the last two Dark Angel codexes were released. A newer codex is going to have a fresher following.

Alpharius wrote:I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...
____

dienekes96 wrote:No Sternguard or Rearguard, just flavors of Wolf Guard.

No Combat Squads...that is a Codex thing.

Time will tell, but I do look forward to a new SW model range and art.

I think Wolf Guard, Wulfen, and 13th Co would be the Elites.

I can see Grey Hunters having Combat Squads - after all, BA & DA are also non-Codex, and they still have them.

SW are still basically SM with new bitz, so the model range can't be that different. I think you'll get more bitz, with more chests, heads, pelts, pads, rhino doors, etc. in plastic.
____

Polonius wrote:I'm imagining Wolves will be pretty standalone, with few of the rules from the basic SM book. I can see them keeping ATSKNF, but everything else will be homegrown.

Theses guys are more unorthodox than even the Templars. Of course, the existence of Templars is the real wrench in the works. Was there are a more unnecessary new codex than templars?

I generally agree, although I would expect many of the newer Loyalist themes to carry through (but in a more limited way). After all, they need to be more Loyalist than Chaos.

GW needs a clear differentiation between Templars and Wolves vs. MoK Chaos. Templars were only necessary because of 3E making them the cover boys and Armageddon making them uber. From a visual standpoint, I have to say that I'm happier with Templars than any of the other flavors. They're the most iconic Warrior-Knights of 40k, and have the best bitz hands down. Along with a striking (and easy) paint scheme. So of course, they're keepers! It's not like GW pushed something lame like Rainbow Warriors or Imperial Fists.
____

Ozymandias wrote:I bet that Wolfen will be elites with a chance to make them troops with a Special Character from the 13th Co.

Like the Dark Angels that they abhor?!?

____

aka_mythos wrote:It'll be curious to see what GW does about the inclusion of Leman Russ tanks; I think the Exterminator is gone,

Yup. Any guesses that it'll just be an upgunned Destructor with twin Autocannon?

dietrich wrote:SW's developed the annihilator turret. I would be shocked! shocked! (There's gambling here? I'm shocked!) if they lose predators. I doubt they'd lose vindicators or whirlwinds either.

CSM get a defiler, maybe there's less resistance at GW to just giving SW all the Leman Russ tank variants. In third edition, I believe the thinking was giving marines a battlecannon was too powerful.

I do believe that was their rationale. Silly GW.

With the exception of the Whirlwind, Leman Russ variants could make the other SM tanks redundant. Why field a vindicator when you can get a LR Demolisher?(yes I know there are advantages to each) I don't think all the SM tanks should necessarily go, but it would make for a cluttered part of the codex otherwise. Something should go to make room.

I don't see SW having Russes as a power balance issue, but as a theme / differention issue. Marines have Preds and Guard has Russes. It's not like the old days when GW couldn't make different models and armies had to share.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...

Really? Could'a fooled me.

dienekes96 wrote:I can see Grey Hunters having Combat Squads - after all, BA & DA are also non-Codex, and they still have them.

Back in 2nd Ed they could divide into Combat Squads. I see no reason why Space Puppies wouldn't do it just because their Rebel Viking Space Marines.

JohnHwangDD wrote:SW are still basically SM with new bitz, so the model range can't be that different. I think you'll get more bitz, with more chests, heads, pelts, pads, rhino doors, etc. in plastic.

No. They're utterly alien in doctrine and organisation to regular Marines, even moreso than Templars. But we all know how much you love vanilla DD. And they won't do Rhino Doors again. Too expensive to make something that isn't worth it. parts to stick on LR/Rhino doors, yes, like with the Dark Angel stuff, but not whole doors again.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Like the Dark Angels that they abhor?!?

What's that got to do with anything? Special Characters altering your army is the way of the future John. Climb on board.

BYE

The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

Grey Hunters are the only unit if any that combat squads could work for. That is unless GW want to throw balance out the window and allow 15-20 man squads to break down into 5 man squads or 10 man squads, that'd get messy.

I know in the past, GW has stated that Wolves wouldn't get combat squads.

aka_mythos wrote:The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

I don't know, the crusader has been a nice option for transporting WG termies and large blood claws squads. Though I would be interested in trying out a battle cannon toting LR in my current lists. If it were just the exterminator pattern though, I would pass, as I was never much interested in a 180 point tank with a TL auto cannons.

aka_mythos wrote: Grey Hunters are the only unit if any that combat squads could work for. That is unless GW want to throw balance out the window and allow 15-20 man squads to break down into 5 man squads or 10 man squads, that'd get messy.

I wonder how they would break a GH squad down as currently you get up to 5 special weapons per squad (1 special gun, 2 plasma pistols, and 2 special cc weapons). Personally, I would prefer if they replaced the 2 plasma pistol options with a second special gun, seeing as the pistols no longer rapid fire. Then combat squading would make more sense as it would split up as 1 special gun and one CC weopon per 5 man.

I also wonder if they will automatically include the cost of a WG squad leader in a Blood Claw and Grey Hunter squad like they did with VS in vanilla tactical squads.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

FYI, *Chaos* Marines aren't Codex...

OK, I am looking forward to a loyalist NON-CODEX chapter to build from.

And really, the latest CSM Codex is closer to 'codex' than just about any that have come before!

Yup.

wyomingfox wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The SW could always get the Leman Russ tank variants in place of the two Land Raider variants. That would sit better with the SW fluff.

I don't know, the crusader has been a nice option for transporting WG termies and large blood claws squads. Though I would be interested in trying out a battle cannon toting LR in my current lists. If it were just the exterminator pattern though, I would pass, as I was never much interested in a 180 point tank with a TL auto cannons.

I seriously think it should be the battle tank over the exterminator, at least. I think losing Crusader and not getting the redeemer would be a fair trade off to getting Leman Russ Battle tanks, possibly demolisher. I still think it'd be neat to see a SW landraider variant, that is in 200 pt ball park and has sacrificed its sponsons for a 20 model transport capacity. I think the large transport is probably the only vehicle niche left in standard sized 40k games and more than other Chapters it seems like its up the SW alley.

At that rate, you're practically talking about a mini-Gorgon.

Alpharius wrote:Good points!

SW's will probably not get Sternguard and/or Vanguard, but Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will get buffed somehow.

I can see them NOT getting the MotF and other tech marine toys too...

But something else in return?

I am looking forward to having a truly NON-CODEX chapter to build from...

I would say that Blood Claws are currently pretty good, being only 14 pts each, having +2 on the charge (and thanks to new counter attack USR, having +2 on the counter charge), and having a special CC weapon per 5 men. They just need to tweek the Bike and Jump Pack options.

Grey Hunters could use some work though

I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.
I cant see them nurfing long fangs or gray hunters. imho I like lr's in my list russ desinged them in the first place they should stay.
as should 15 man blood claws.
I also see them using master of the forge.

Interesting that an Australian manager would be getting the codex but none of the ones in the US did.

Well, you know...we all have big mouths.

Everything that I hope for the new dex has pretty much been covered by someone else, so I won't be redundant...

But if they are looking for new Special Characters, tell 'em to give me a holler...I got a couple ideas I'd love to see universally played.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'll be curious to see the rules changes come out. I suspect that:
- no more 1 HQ per 500 pts

Just a slight correction. Its one HQ choice required for every 750 points.

Heh. Yeah. Oops.

LittleLeadMen wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'll be curious to see the rules changes come out. I suspect that:
- no more 1 HQ per 500 pts

Just a slight correction. Its one HQ choice required for every 750 points.

Either it way, it was that.

As in past tense.

It is sure to be gone...

I can't possibly imagine them keeping the Exterminator in the new book, much less getting more Leman Russ variants. The addition of the LRE was a 3rd edition quirk (althought they could be allied in under 2nd, but then so could harlequins), and might be lost under the old "Units without a model can be nixed" rule. Look at Iron Warrior Basilisks. True they weren't in the main codex, but they were simply dropped wholesale from the new book. Same with Cultists. Looted vehicles were not entirely dropped, but radically changed in the new Ork book.

Essentially, the reason to keep the LREs in the wolf dex is basically: 1) it's got the primarch's name on it, and 2) nearly every wolf player has a baby blue exterminator on the shelf. The cons are much more compelling, IMO: 1) the LR chassis isn't a SM vehicle, 2) Wolves have plenty of heavy support options without needed to loot from the IG, 3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

From a game balance perspective, there's no real reason not to give marines a tank, or even ordanance. The problem is that any advantage the wolves gain by having access to the LRE needs to be balanced with losing something. To keep it as a fun option would require kieeping the current high price, but GW seems to avoid keeping fun but non-competitive units in the codices these days.

Given how Landraiders are much, much better now, and the LRE was always a bit pricey for the wolves, I can't see it being a huge loss for competitve play. For casual play, I'm guessing it'll stay an option under either Apocolypse or under Imperial Armor.

Polonius wrote:3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

1) Oh no you didn't!

2) Is that you John?

@Polonius: The primary reason to nuke the Exterminator is the same as the IW Basilisk:

Space Wolf players will be forced to buy something NEW (and SHINY) to replace the points that they can't spend on an Exterminator.

Same with the removal of the 3rd HQ - those points need to be spent elsewhere.

Preferably on a half-dozen brand new, just-released 40-pt $30+ Drop Pods that still need to recover their tooling costs...

Wouldn't the fact that every wolf player has one on the shelf be a con, not a pro?

Alpharius wrote:

Polonius wrote:3) As cliched as it sounds, this is exactly the sort of unit that could be shifted to apocolypse.

1) Oh no you didn't!

2) Is that you John?

Oh, yes he did!

Actually, Apocalypse already allows SW to field IG LRE as Allied unit... No rules or datasheet required!

Well, according the 3rd edition codex, the space wolves keep a few LREs in the chapter armory as an homage to their primarch. How those same three exterminators show up in every 1500pt battle fought by any Great Company is beyond me, but I think shifting them away from competitive play (where they really aren't worth their points now) and towards scenario play is a good thing.

there's a difference between options that add flavor and appeal, and options that are simply there. The Space Wolf codex is chock full of those "wouldn't it be cool" options, or even worse, the "hey, we had rules for these in the past, we should include them." Iron Priests and retinues, Blood Claws with jump packs, LRE... these should all have been more thoroughly vetted or left on the cutting room floor. Options that nobody would take aren't really options. If you're local ice cream parlor serves Chocolate, vanilla, and 29 different flavors of feces, calling itself 31 Flavors is a bit misleading.

If the LRE is priced competitively, it'll eclipse the predator destructor, which is so similar in function as to make having both completely odd. Now if wolves lose the destructor (since they invented the annihilator pattern anyway), then maybe it would be fun to have it as the sole fire support tank in the armory.

That's why I think it should go IA. Heck, let's not forget how many Imperial Guard players have LREs on the shelf that they can't use now. I don't feel for SW players at all.

Polonius wrote:The Space Wolf codex is chock full of those "wouldn't it be cool" options, or even worse, the "hey, we had rules for these in the past, we should include them."

If the LRE is priced competitively, it'll eclipse the predator destructor,

When the current SW book was developed and printed, I don't think GW had a good idea of where SW was going to end up. At least, not like they do today. I'm sure, at the time, GW intended that most of the options in the current SW book would be actively used.

IMO, the Predator Exterminator ought to be a *replacement* for Destructor so that SW don't have the option a budget Pred, either twin-Autocannon Exterminator for infantry, or Annhilator for tanks. Exterminator replacing Destructor gives the sort of useful artificial distinction that is good for differentiation purely for the sake of being different.

I don't think Apocalypse should ever come into the equation of designing a codex. Design for 40k and Apocalypse is just incidental.

To the guy who said the inclusion of LR Exterminator was just a quirk, I'd like to point out it has been officially a part of SW for almost as long as it wasn't. I would also point out that most likely the only reason it wasn't originally included with SW was because they predated the LR tank kit.

I think drop pods will be in there and SW would probably be an opportunity to do a variant kit for that, but who knows. GW could easily reinvent them with this new codex.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think Apocalypse should ever come into the equation of designing a codex. Design for 40k and Apocalypse is just incidental.

To the guy who said the inclusion of LR Exterminator was just a quirk, I'd like to point out it has been officially a part of SW for almost as long as it wasn't. I would also point out that most likely the only reason it wasn't originally included with SW was because they predated the LR tank kit.

I think drop pods will be in there and SW would probably be an opportunity to do a variant kit for that, but who knows. GW could easily reinvent them with this new codex.

Well, that's a good point. I mean, back in at least early 2nd edition, it was fluff that both SM and IG used both types of vehicles, so there could be IG rhinos and SM Basilisks.

That said, the fluff has both tightened up and gotten deeper. I mean, at the end of the day the LRE has a twin AC and three heavy bolters, while the predator has one AC and two HBs. Offering both seems like it would be difficult to price both so that they have a purpose.

I like options. I really do. I have no problem with it being in the codex. I'm just saying, based on GW's philosophy, I think there are better places for such a vehicle than the main codex. I mean, the exact same vehicle was kept out of the IG codex! It was made part of the Imperial Armor, apocolypse style environment (along with the griffon and the vanquisher), and while it sucked a bit, it honestly wasn't a problem. there are options that are mostly fun, and don't necessarily factor into army balance (either internally or externally). The IA books are full of vehicles that dont' add much to tournament or pick up play, but make arranged games more fun. Without the LRE, Wolves would still have: Long Fangs, LR, LRC, Predators, whirlwinds, vindicators and possibly Redeemers as heavy support choices.

I just can't see any balance that would make both LREs and Destructors equally prevelant in competitive play. Either one or the other will emerge as superior. Right now, the destructor is so much cheaper (85 to 200) as to make it a no brainer.

Back when GW only made the Rhino (i.e. RT), it was an IG vehicle.

Only after the Chimera kit came out did it become exclusive to the Guard, and the Rhino dropped out of use.

I agree that there isn't any good sense to have both LR Exterminator *and* Destructor in the same list.

We all have our little quirks and wishes that we want to see with the new codex. As I am just starting a SW army, this information is very interesting to me.

Personally BCs are fine as they are. GH would be fine at 17 points if they get all the approperate USRs, grenades, bolters, and CCWs included in their cost. They need another marine unit though (T4 3+sv) that can get mixed in alla Sternguard or vanguard (but not sternguard or vanguard).

Our special characters either need to come down drastically in price or have their abilities tuned up. I personally think it would be really sweet if good ol Russ himself made a comeback (I think he is one of the few Primarchs that are still alive) with an astrick that says "apocalypse only*, but make him bad ass and a datasheet in of himself.

The Iron Priest can easily take the place of Motf if he is fleshed out a little bit. Our Wolf Priests should be upgrade characters like current apothicaries or painboys. The Rune Priest needs a larger selection of psychic powers and LD 10 psychic hood ability.

Long Fangs need help. Maybe just more bodies to make them actually survivable and useful.

Space wolf scouts are fine as is, but maybe a few better weapon options. As is, they are still only one of two units that can come in on your back table edge and not from the flank.

Natuarally SW vehicles should all get a price reduction to keep them in line with the current SM prices.

IMO Long Fangs are actually pretty much perfect the way they are: fixed-size 5-man squad with Vet and 4 guns.

Adding more bodies just homogenizes them to be ordinary SM Devastators.

People took devistators because they worked. People took LF because they were one of the few long range options. It didn't mean that they worked. At an average cost of 40 points each for a single wound T4 3+ save model, it really sucks.

No, LF need to change if only to make them table top competitive. Not just fluffy.

Jayden, you forget you're talking to a long-time Eldar player. Throughout 3E and 4E, Dark Reapers were ~45 pts (on average) for a T3 Sv4+ model, with even more limited weapons options. They're back to Sv3+ now with a couple more options, but if you want to talk about a glass hammer...

So because they suffer the same problems that Dark Reapers suffer (no ablative wounds), they should stay that way?

God forbid you ever become a games designer DD...

BYE

Well, both long fangs and reapers were written in an environement that allowed infantry to screen each other. It was a pretty huge difference, and kept squads like that in the running far longer than they would today.

I think the best thing would be to give the Long Fangs some varaint of the Stealth Suit rule, where it's harder to see them from distance.

Remember, the Space Wolves are an army that Jervis wanted to do ages ago, with the claim that they are one of the few true good guys in the Imperium that care about civilians.

Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

hey, they can have it, but for a S@#T load of points, less models means me boyz and Nids can kill faster

JohnHwangDD wrote:Tau Broadsides don't.

Tougher.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Chaos Obliterators don't.

Tougher.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Dark Reapers don't.

Fortune.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Long Fangs don't.

Pricey and fragile.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ratlings don't.

And how many of those do you see?

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

I was not aware that 'sucking' was a selling point... in miniatures at least.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

skyth wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why should LF get Stealth? They're T4 Sv3+ and will probably get Sv4+ cover from intervening models. That's pretty darn good.

Not all armies should have ablative wounds on their long-range gunners. Tau Broadsides don't. Chaos Obliterators don't. Dark Reapers don't. Long Fangs don't. Ratlings don't. It's part of what makes the unit distinctive.

Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

If they are the best and all that, make them most expensive in points the better the more xpensive right

Long Fangs relative to other similar choices are either over priced or left lacking a neccesary survival boost. While it might be "characterful" to not have the ablative wounds it doesn't mean amyone should pay for what is currently an overpriced unit. It might not be by much but mean tweeking is needed on them.

I could see them getting a vet skill or something like it

sonofruss wrote:I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.
I cant see them nurfing long fangs or gray hunters. imho I like lr's in my list russ desinged them in the first place they should stay.
as should 15 man blood claws.
I also see them using master of the forge.

Nah, I want my bloodclaws with jump packs and smoke grenades, like Russ intended, in 2nd edition.

Personally not a fan of the guard tanks in a marine list. I'd bet that falls away, as the basilisk has fallen away in other marine armies.
What we really need is Berzerker dreadnought, complete with battle axe in one hand, and giant beer stein in the other, mayhaps a nice viking helmet on top. No?

rofl bikes fulfill all the rolls of jump packs and get a inv save when they turbo boost

@Frazzled: Err... no.

I realize its a "guard tank in a marine list" but seriously didn't their primarch design the thing, which is more justification than a basalisk in a IW army. You'd have to question why he designed it, if not for his own legion to use was it than just done for the guard? If so he must have been the "nicest" primarch.

It just strikes me as a neat aspect to the SW and is very distinguishing (in a good way, not at all like LF). It goes a long way to making them distinctive from other chapters while filling in some short comings.

It was designed when russ got tired of ig tanks blowing up next to him paper armor and all that

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Now if GW does a Celestial Lions or Relicators sprue I'd be on that like @#$% on @#$%.

I'd love GW to do a type of "cursed founding" sprue, that would cover all sorts of different SM types.. Black Dragons, Salamanders, Iron Snakes, Celestial Lions, Relictors, etc.. But I doubt GW has aloted that for a plastic sprue..

That would be cool. I always thought GW could do pretty well for itself if it did sprues of just bits, that weren't neccesarily tied to a release or even a specific kit. Like generic icons and bionics and other things that have general use. Anything that is on the vehicle decal sheet done in 3d could potentially be such a bit.

Wouldn't the 13th Company logically be a special charcater option with the current design philosphy?

I.E. a Space Wolf army selects Bob, Master of the Bad Dogs as a special HQ choice and can now take a bunch of 13th Company stuff as core choices?

I bet we'll see a 13th company special character... Storm Claws and Grey Slayers as elites, special character disallows Grey Hunters and Blood Claws, and makes Storm Claws FA choices and Grey Slayers troop choices. Probably Wulfen in there, too.

My guess is the standard special rules for SW will be Counter-Attack and Stubborn. True Grit will be replaced with Grey Hunters (and Slayers) getting bolter/bp/ccw. Grey Hunters will probably stay priced similarly; they're significantly overcosted now, but those changes ("never outnumbered" to Stubborn, True Grit to bolter/bp/ccw) will bring them more in line with their real value.

Also expecting Bjorn to make a comeback, and have similar rules to the current SW Venny; otherwise, venerables will have rules similar to current SM venerables.

Bikes and jumpers will, of course, get modern pricing. I think this is the single thing I'm most awaiting in a SW codex (as a SW player) -- fast attack choices that are actually reasonably priced.

Kinda doubt we'll see a Leman Russ variant in the SW list.

Really, though, SW armies are going to change radically, if for nothing else that we're going from 3rd edition pricing philosophy to 5th edition pricing philosophy... For example, a Blood Claw is 14 points. Give him a jump pack and he's 30 points. A Space Marine is 15ish points (depending on how exactly you value them), with a jump pack he's 19ish points. This alone is going to radically change what SW armies on the table look like, before getting in to any possible radical changes of other units.

I'm fully expecting 13th company to disappear as a playable option and get a fluff mention only.

It'd be cool to have a 13th Company special character to set that tone for the army and it is kinda create parallels with DA's Belial and Samael as army changing commanders.

It will also be interesting to see if GW continue with the idea of unit upgrading special characters as well.

On the Leman Russ, who knows maybe it ends up being a Iron Priest special characters personal vehicle.

skyth wrote:Broadsides get shield drones
Oblits have 2 wounds apiece, besides the point that you're totally ignoring Havok squads, which definitely DO have ablative wounds.
Ratlings are cheaper than the other options, so ablative wounds aren't neccessary (And the true long range gunners-heavy weapon squads DO have ablative wounds built in).

Reapers are the only ones that don't have ablative wounds, and this just doesn't fit thier style (Though they do have fortune to make them hard to kill...)

Long fangs don't have ablative wounds and it doesn't fit thier style. However, having the stealth rule WOULD fir thier style as they are the oldest and most experienced Wolves. That and possibly a price drop would make them more balanced.

IMO, a couple shield drones aren't going to materially increase Broadside survivability in nearly the same way that a half-dozen extra Marines will.

Those Guard HWS are only 6-men, T3 Sv5+... Compared to Ratlings in cover, you start losing HWS effectiveness pretty quickly... Now if they were a full 10 guys, that'd be a different story.

You're suggesting that each Reaper squad gets a dedicated HQ to try and keep them alive? Really?

How long have Long Fangs been 5-man squads? I think it's definitely part of their style, and really, adding Stealth simply bumps them up in cost. A basic LF with Stealth is worth at least 20 pts. Plus weapons and Sergeant. I mean, I know you want uber LF, but asking for a bonus USR *and* a price cut is OTT.

I look forward to the day when SW are once again considered a cheesy, over the top army.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
How long have Long Fangs been 5-man squads? I think it's definitely part of their style, and really, adding Stealth simply bumps them up in cost. A basic LF with Stealth is worth at least 20 pts. Plus weapons and Sergeant. I mean, I know you want uber LF, but asking for a bonus USR *and* a price cut is OTT.

Currently:

3 Obliterators: 6 Wounds, Fearless, 2+5++ sv, Weapon choices, Relentless (via S&P), Deepstrike = 225 points
5 Long Fangs: 5 wounds, 3+ sv, 4 Lascannon, Shoot at 2 targets with Pack Leader (usually first wound) = 248 points.

Stealth and a price cut is not OTT.

3 Obliterators with Deep Strike = 1 Demolisher Cannon to remove.

IMO, a couple shield drones aren't going to materially increase Broadside survivability in nearly the same way that a half-dozen extra Marines will.

Yeah cause T4 2+ save, 4+ inv wounds will have little impact on surviability compared to a 3+ save, no inv

Don't underestimate how useful splitting fire is.

The Obliterators can only threaten a single unit or tank each turn. Longfangs can threaten two. And also, please look at things in the context of their army list. Space Wolves have their Scouts which can pop and Meltabomb a tank into oblivion from pretty much anywhere. The rest of the army is heavily geared towards HTH. Ergo, the Longfangs ability to split fire is worth more to a Space Wolf army than if it was applied to say, Dark Angels who are less HTH inclined. There is your premium right there.,

Give pack leaders the ability to take wolves...more fluffy and you still get extra wounds.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Don't underestimate how useful splitting fire is.

The Obliterators can only threaten a single unit or tank each turn. Longfangs can threaten two. And also, please look at things in the context of their army list. Space Wolves have their Scouts which can pop and Meltabomb a tank into oblivion from pretty much anywhere. The rest of the army is heavily geared towards HTH. Ergo, the Longfangs ability to split fire is worth more to a Space Wolf army than if it was applied to say, Dark Angels who are less HTH inclined. There is your premium right there.,

Given the difficulty in destroying vehicles now in 5th and that you have to allocate shots before you start rolling for hits, anti-tank split fire is less usefull as you will usually direct all the lazcannon shots at one vehicle anyways just to make sure you have an effect.

Now if you are splitting fire between anti tank and anti personel that is a better boon (that is until the wolf pack leader becomes a random casualty).

As it is, a LR has about as much firepower as a LF squad, the ability to split shots as well, more manuverability, higher survival ability, and costs about the same :S.

Simply for what you get the LF are just overpriced. It a unit taken out of a need for heavy weapons and not because of the other abilities it currently has. There are better units for fewer points.

Longfangs are overpriced, especially in comparison to new razorback and predator costs. Yes, in the vacumn of X vs Y at about ABC points, they're comparable. But, you're typically comparing them to something else that is either a vehicle, more duable (either similar wounds, better T or Save and/or Inv save, or has albative wounds), or can move and fire.

For the price of a LFs with missile launchers, how many attack bikes or speeders with multi-meltas can you get? 4? You really think the LFs are better at taking down a tank?

And demolishers take out obliterators, but AP3 battlecannos take out LFs - from further away.

LFs need a reworking. By the fluff, they don't have extra squad mates, they all carry a BFG. Giving the units some wolves would help, but I don't care for it. Stealth is -eh-; it's a solution, but I don't think it fits the fluff.

Guys, it's not that I don't think LF need fixing - they do.

And they suffer from many of the same problems that other Heavy Weapons troopers suffer - expensive gun, non-Scoring.

But more that I just have a different idea of what they ought to look like. That is, it isn't LF-like to have extra bodies; it isn't LF-like (or SM-like) to depend on Stealth.

If it were up to me, I'd suggest GW bring down the cost of the Heavy Weapons upgrades themselves - the old 3E price for a Lascannon (that people are using for their examples) just isn't what it should be in 5E, for example.

I can't wait to see what happens when the new fluff about order of promotion hits the SW (if at all). Old fluff was that it went: Scout, Tactical, Heavy/Special Weapon Tactical, Assault and/or Devastator, Veteran, HQ. Now it is Scout, Devastator, Assault, Tactical, Veteran, HQ. The SW go Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fang, Wolf Guard, HQ with some taking the Scout path instead of WG. Now we know why Russ hated the Codex so much, it meant that Long Fangs are doing the same job as the newest/greenest Space Marines in most of the other Chapters.

In my mind, the background took a huge hit in the latest SM Codex.

The Ultramarine fellatio was way over the top, and the new standard of not only does everyone want to be an Ultramarine, but everyone wants to be a Tactical Marine was odd too.

I'm sure that many of the other Founding Legions would inspire others the same if not more than the Ultras do.

Ah well, go Wolves go!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
But more that I just have a different idea of what they ought to look like. That is, it isn't LF-like to have extra bodies; it isn't LF-like (or SM-like) to depend on Stealth.

If it were up to me, I'd suggest GW bring down the cost of the Heavy Weapons upgrades themselves - the old 3E price for a Lascannon (that people are using for their examples) just isn't what it should be in 5E, for example.

I agree with you, that LF squads shouldn't be too large but why not give them the option of adding wolves to the squad for wounds and CC support?

Also, I don't agree with Stealth not being appropriate for Space Wolves... Aren't they supposed to be deadly (i.e. quiet) hunters? The psychic power 'Storm Caller' is about gaining cover through obfuscation, so it's not a stretch to gain a bonus through being stealthy. At worse, I think it's fair to say that they are experienced and cunning enough to have "Bolster Defenses" to grant a piece of terrain +1 to cover saves, ala Techmarines and Lysander.

I suspect Long Fangs may end up being the Sterngaurd of the Space Wolves -- only with 4 heavy weapons instead of 2 and no combi option. They'd have expensive ablative wounds but with the weaponry and stats appropriate for older then old veterans. Then give them an upgrade character that grants split-fire. As a heavy choice that would differentiate them as the heavy weapon toting veterans that they are.

Hmm, I wonder if I can buy a space wolf army off some one at the FLGS. I've always liked the models and with a new dex coming out I might have a good reason to get one

LFs are supposed to be incredibly stubborn, the last to leave the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked if they gain Fearless, which would help keep a small, expensive squad in the game for as long as possible.

The ability to split fire is nice, but I don't think it's 18 points nice. Plus, the pack leader is the only expendable member of the squad (unless you throw a packleader in there for 30+ points).

SWs should keep the SM tanks and variants. I won't mind them keep the LRE, but I won't be too upset if it's out of the Codex - it's legal in APOC afterall.

The third edition codex had some pretty substantial fluff changes from second edition (role of scouts, experience of blood claws, squads having a dedicated sergeant, and combat squads, plus probably some others).

The Wolves don't really advance in a regimented fashion. They start as Blood Claws, advance to Grey Hunters, and then usually die. Survivors become Sgts, Wolf Guard, Priests, or Scouts. From the WG are chosen the Wolf Lords.

It's a bit more free-form.

I'll trust Kelly with the fluff. Orks and Eldar were right, so hopefully this will be.

Long Fangs need an increase in their effectiveness, or a reduction in point costs. Something to show that unlike their inexperienced ultra counterparts, they really know how to use a gun.

Tank hunters would be a good start. Possibly relentless as well. Stealth Just doesn't seem to fit the fluff.

Give Long Fangs bolster defences and FNP. These are old grizzled SW that know the best places to fight and how to fight through that which knocks down the younger generation.

That gives them a 3+ armor or cover and a 4+ FNP in most situations and would help keep them alive longer. You wouldn't have to add more bodies when each guy can get two saves.

I think that Space Wolves should emphasis the Drop Pod build more than any other Chapter. Some of their earlier fluff really depicted them as the premier Drop Legion, and I'd like to see more of that in the new book.

It would be nice if there was a 13th Co. character that gave access to Wulfen, but it may just be that 13th Co. are relegated to Apocalypse. Regardless, I think that the difference between a Storm Claw and a Blood Claw, and a Grey Slayer and a Grey Hunter, are small enough to be irrelevant.

I don't think it is so much a case of them being the best drop legion, more a case of them not trusting 'modern' technology, and refusing to Teleport. Ever.

BYE

They had a special drop regiment formation in 1st edition Epic.

Well, in current form(3rd ed. dex, 5th ed. rules) they do have an advantige over the others in a DP army....they don't care if they get charged, mostly get their attacks anyway...so I don't really see any more buffs for Droppin in. Although it would be cool if they decided that in a SW army, DP's didn't count as a Kill Point unit, cuz THAT hurts...don't see it happinin though.

dietrich wrote:LFs are supposed to be incredibly stubborn, the last to leave the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked if they gain Fearless, which would help keep a small, expensive squad in the game for as long as possible.

The ability to split fire is nice, but I don't think it's 18 points nice. Plus, the pack leader is the only expendable member of the squad (unless you throw a packleader in there for 30+ points).

SWs should keep the SM tanks and variants. I won't mind them keep the LRE, but I won't be too upset if it's out of the Codex - it's legal in APOC afterall.

The third edition codex had some pretty substantial fluff changes from second edition (role of scouts, experience of blood claws, squads having a dedicated sergeant, and combat squads, plus probably some others).

not fearless fearless stinks now stubborn is what they need

It would be nice if LFs got Tank Hunters; that bumped marines up to 18pts in the 4th ed marinedex, and that on top of space wolves rules would nice.

This codex sounds as though it's going to come out TOO early... I can't afford to start Space Wolves again any time soon. I will, though. Damn it...

SW won't get Fearless - that's a Chaos Cult Marine ability. SW can have ATSKNF and Stubborn, though...

...and I just sold my LRT Exterminator on eBay.

Alpharius wrote:In my mind, the background took a huge hit in the latest SM Codex.

The Ultramarine fellatio was way over the top, and the new standard of not only does everyone want to be an Ultramarine, but everyone wants to be a Tactical Marine was odd too.

And White Scar Brotherhoods becoming boring old codex Companies. And Iron Hands having their Clan Council replaced by a Chapter Master.

Durandal wrote:Long Fangs need an increase in their effectiveness, or a reduction in point costs. Something to show that unlike their inexperienced ultra counterparts, they really know how to use a gun.

Tank hunters would be a good start. Possibly relentless as well. Stealth Just doesn't seem to fit the fluff.

Well they are overpriced, you pay 3 pts more per LF over a vanilla and 21 pts more for a Pack Leader.

This is compounded by having smurfs get combat tactics with out paying extra points for the new ability. Whereas greyhunters, WG, heroes, and LF pay for having True Grit and Counter Charge at 3 pts a model (Greyhunters + Bolters = 18pts)

Now, LF have the following abilities: Acute Senses, True Grit and Split Fire, Blood Fued (They don't get counter-charge and No Matter the Odds was removed in 5th).

Acute Senses: Still useful, infact, more useful to LF and other Heavy Weapon Choices and less useful to SW troops that lack heavy weopons. However this buff is somewhat countered by happening in only 1 in 3 scenarios.

True Grit: Useless unless they turn LF into stern guard. I doubt this would happen.

Split Fire: This has been effectively reduced in 5th with the abundance of cover saves and the increased survival ability of tanks, which means greater need to combine fire. Couple this with the sergeant being the first casualty and the reason for paying 21 pts for this ability diminishes fast.

Blood Fued: Rare occurance and useless for LF

Personally, I see True Grit and Counter Charge being the exchange for vanilla's combat tactics and therefore not costing SW anything further for these abilities (ie. Grey Hunters, WG, Heroes, and LF drop 3 points each).

Of course true grit and counter charge don't benefit LF so they should trade these abilities for either scout, infiltrate, or stealth. According to 3 space wolf novels I have read, all space wolves are adepts at using thier keen senses to out manuever and sneak up on thier prey. Yeah, they scream and howl, but only after they have caught thier prey unawares and are on top of them. The book mentions long fangs carying out the same tactics.

A second option would be to give the entire army stealth instead of counter charge and true grit which would match the nature of the wolves' style of warefare in the novels. Novel wise, they are werewolves who manage to control thier other more bestial nature.

Exchanging Split Fire for either Tank Hunter or the Relentless USR would be equitable, expecially if it no longer relied on the survival of the Pack Leader (this should cost 15 pts per 5 man squad rather than the current 21 pts).

And I guess in the purely hypothetical inclusion of 13th Company they'd have a special character who comes with mark of the wulfen built in and grant either or both "Scouts" and move through cover to the army or his unit, but disallow drop pods.

Really, I want to see the LF get BS 5 and Stealth. I think its all they really need. (And a price drop cause they no longer score.)

wooooooooot on bs 5 and bolster not stealth. split fire needs to stay

Got to talk to a reliable staffer today further about the codex.

He knew nothing about it HOWEVER he was saying it was probably the new SW FAQ to be released.

He assured me the new drop pod rules are in it as well as other stuff to bring the SWs in line with the new SM codex.

Now I've spent the last half hour on the annoying GW website and cannot find a SW FAQ anywhere.

sonofruss wrote:I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.

Every time someone mentions this a Space Wolf is neutered.

We are seeing a major shift back towards second edition so I see them dropping the two ridiculous 3rd edition fluff notes about not using Jump Packs or Teleportation. Both were hallmarks of the Wolves before this last codex. I hope to see reasonably costing Blood Claws with jump packs in the new book. Then I can paint me up a squad or two.

I am also looking forward to Grey Hunters and Long Fangs having Bolter, Pistol, CCW and Grenades. Long Fangs could swap their Bolter for the Heavy Weapons, but still be able to fight with pistol and chainsword on the move or in counter assault. Still no counter charge due to aching bones. Split fire will probably go away.

I think we will have a better idea about the fate of our beloved Exterminators based on the upcoming IG codex. If they make a return we might get to keep one or more Russ variants. If it is not in there we lose it for sure. While not the same I would be happy with a modified Destructor with dual autocannons. Make it a bit on the accessory sprue.

Wolf Guard are the veterans of the Space Wolves so they are the Veteran Sergeants, Vanguard, Sternguard, Honor Guard, Command Squad, and Terminators all rolled into one. I don't want to see most of the new kit from the Space Marine codex in there. Maybe the Land Speeder Storm and Redeemer. And we would have Relic Axes.

The FAQ is here. If the link does not work look under Gaming, and the last item on the list is for FAQs. Follow the next few screens and you can see the FAQs for all three systems.

All of this is IMHO and I have no special knowledge about any upcoming GW product.

making Long Fangs a squad of 6 would be an improvement. Other than that, I look forward to the new codex with anticipation. Speaking of "Relic Axes," Wolf Guard should get Frost Blades for the same price as everyone else gets Power Weapons. Just because.

victorpofa wrote:

sonofruss wrote:I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.

We are seeing a major shift back towards second edition so I see them dropping the two ridiculous 3rd edition fluff notes about not using Jump Packs or Teleportation. Both were hallmarks of the Wolves before this last codex. I hope to see reasonably costing Blood Claws with jump packs in the new book.

I dunno... I think we're seeing a return of the 2E restrictions (10-man Combat Squads), but I wouldn't expect any of the newer 3E thematic limitations to go away. For example, in 2E, BA were supposed to be strong adherents of the Codex Astartes. So I'd expect SW to be denied JPs and Teleportation except at punitive costs / availability. If the SW BC had good JP access, that would tread on the BA's specialty. It'll be interesting to see how the new Codex shakes out.

I have been playing space wolves since 2nd ed. I still think nixing the jump pack for bikes fits the fluff a lot more than jump packs do. You should read some of the old fluff from the original codex. It didn't say any thing about jp's they used a drop pod, oh and ragnar shoved a krack grenade in a screamer killer's mouth splatterd bug ewww

Is this a download from GW? Link?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Got to talk to a reliable staffer today further about the codex.

He knew nothing about it HOWEVER he was saying it was probably the new SW FAQ to be released.

He assured me the new drop pod rules are in it as well as other stuff to bring the SWs in line with the new SM codex.

Now I've spent the last half hour on the annoying GW website and cannot find a SW FAQ anywhere.

Huh? All I saw was the same SW FAQ that has been on the US website for over a month now (since the new SW Codex came out).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

victorpofa wrote:

sonofruss wrote:I could see them nixing jump packs and using bikes and scout bikes. space wolves fight on the ground like russ intended.

We are seeing a major shift back towards second edition so I see them dropping the two ridiculous 3rd edition fluff notes about not using Jump Packs or Teleportation. Both were hallmarks of the Wolves before this last codex. I hope to see reasonably costing Blood Claws with jump packs in the new book.

I dunno... I think we're seeing a return of the 2E restrictions (10-man Combat Squads), but I wouldn't expect any of the newer 3E thematic limitations to go away. For example, in 2E, BA were supposed to be strong adherents of the Codex Astartes. So I'd expect SW to be denied JPs and Teleportation except at punitive costs / availability. If the SW BC had good JP access, that would tread on the BA's specialty. It'll be interesting to see how the new Codex shakes out.

Well, I agree that JP choices should be limmited as they are now in SW codex: only BC and thier pack leaders get them. However, the points do need to drop inorder to bring them in line with current standards and make them a viable option in a codex.

Given that Blood Angels can take JP as elites, HQ, and troops, I don't think solely reducing the points for BC JP in line would infringe on BA specialty.

I'm curious to know the sentiments of people around here on whether SW should get any of the new toys in the SM. There's been a bit of talk about trade off units between the two codices, but the conversation hasn't been front and center too much.

Certain things could "fit" the SW's but how much is really appropriate or fair for a non-codex chapter? How many of these can really be "lost" in exchange for the uniquely SW units?
-Chapter Master
-Honor Guard
-Sternguard
-Vanguard
-LS Storm
-Thunderfire
-Land Raider Variants
(did I forget anything?)

The first two to me seem easily unneccesary with a special character and wolfguard already filling those roles or playing double duty.

Also I think for once having the scouts "pumped up" and in the Elite FOC migh actually be appropriate, unlike other codices.

aka_mythos wrote:How many of these can really be "lost" in exchange for the uniquely SW units?
-Chapter Master

Logan Grimnar is the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves. A special character replaces this unit just fine.

-Honor Guard
-Sternguard
-Vanguard

These (along with terminators) can all be rolled into a Wolfguard unit entry.

-LS Storm
-Thunderfire
-Land Raider Variants

I don't see any reason that the SW shouldn't have these.

Also I think for once having the scouts "pumped up" and in the Elite FOC migh actually be appropriate, unlike other codices.

They really ARE elite, fluff-wise. I have no objection.

I think if all three of those squads are replaced by wolfguard, the wolfguard units probably going to get a big upgrade in the next codex. One reason I'm inclined to believ wulfen will make it into the codex is so that the wolfguard unit doesn't have to be buffed so much as to replace three units, maybe just two.

By not having all the same vehicle options, it seems it opens them up to getting a unique vehicle. Is there any fluffish precedent for anything other than a Leman Russ?

Pariah Press wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:How many of these can really be "lost" in exchange for the uniquely SW units?
-Chapter Master

Logan Grimnar is the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves. A special character replaces this unit just fine.

I would think that the Chapter Master would either be replaced by the SC Logan or the entire entry would be replaced by a divergent Wolf Lord entry. Of all of the new SM toys, I doubt you would see a "acts like" SM Chapter Master.

-Honor Guard
-Sternguard
-Vanguard

These (along with terminators) can all be rolled into a Wolfguard unit entry.

I could see WG filling the Honor Guard and Terminator roles as is currently the case. Current fluffwise, I don't see the SW getting Vanguard as JP are typically allocated to BC who are assigned the assault roles, where as older SW tend to adhore JP. Personally, I doubt SW would get stearnguard (my opinion only) but if they did then either WG or LF (as was previously suggested) could be given this ability.

-LS Storm
-Thunderfire
-Land Raider Variants

I don't see any reason that the SW shouldn't have these.

Nor do I, the LR varients fit thier current fighting tactics better than the LR (15 man blood claws, 8 man terminator squads, ect).

Also I think for once having the scouts "pumped up" and in the Elite FOC migh actually be appropriate, unlike other codices.

They really ARE elite, fluff-wise. I have no objection.

Agreed, though it would be nice to have 3 troop options.

wyomingfox wrote:Nor do I, the LR varients fit thier current fighting tactics better than the LR (15 man blood claws, 8 man terminator squads, ect).

It is said you can't have your cake and eat it too. Both at a risk of losing distinctiveness and at becoming suprerior to all other marines in terms of the number of options somethings should be kept out of the SW codex.

The fluff has always dictated that its the price of deviating from the Codex Astartes. You either play ball or you're cut off from the best Forgeworlds. In this case the SW choose to honor their own traditions over the dictates of Guilliman.

From a game balance stand point, GW doesn't want SW's to have all their own advantages on top of the advantages of the main space marine codex.

In both instances, these are the same sort of reasons the core marine codex does not have long fangs or wolf guard or any of the other SW units. So if you can live without all SM getting all the SW units by different names you should be able to stand the inverse. Otherwise their is no real reason to have separate codices at all.

Also I want to time out here and say does the landraider follow any chapters "fighting tactics?" Few chapters are so exclusively shooty as to only use stock landraiders and not the more assault orriented variants, so I don't think its a matter of LR variants suiting their fighting tactics as it is a matter of LR variants suiting the common tactics of the rule set and predisposition of many armies to those tactics.

aka_mythos wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:Nor do I, the LR varients fit thier current fighting tactics better than the LR (15 man blood claws, 8 man terminator squads, ect).

It is said you can't have your cake and eat it too. Both at a risk of losing distinctiveness and at becoming suprerior to all other marines in terms of the number of options somethings should be kept out of the SW codex.

The fluff has always dictated that its the price of deviating from the Codex Astartes. You either play ball or you're cut off from the best Forgeworlds. In this case the SW choose to honor their own traditions over the dictates of Guilliman.

From a game balance stand point, GW doesn't want SW's to have all their own advantages on top of the advantages of the main space marine codex.

In both instances, these are the same sort of reasons the core marine codex does not have long fangs or wolf guard or any of the other SW units. So if you can live without all SM getting all the SW units by different names you should be able to stand the inverse. Otherwise their is no real reason to have separate codices at all.

Also I want to time out here and say does the landraider follow any chapters "fighting tactics?" Few chapters are so exclusively shooty as to only use stock landraiders and not the more assault orriented variants, so I don't think its a matter of LR variants suiting their fighting tactics as it is a matter of LR variants suiting the common tactics of the rule set and predisposition of many armies to those tactics.

You mean like how GW gave DH True Grit, all SM get Venerable Dreads (OK they don't get the reroll on who goes first), SM Tech Priests get servitors (better servitors), and all 40K units get 3rd edition counter attack. SM Honor Guard might as well be WG with all the abundance of cheap wargear and wargear options they get (which was suppose to be the hall mark of the WG) and honor guard are cheaper. So yeah, SM have alot of SW units and abilities. Or how about how SM got unlimmited access to Crusaders (which prior to this was limmited to 1 per army).

Also, fluff wise, LR varients do follow the combat tactics of the chapter, with the supossed majority of crusaders being wielded by the Black Templars as it fits thier fighting style better (which was why prior to 5th, only templars could have more than 1). Lastly, SW, being one of the 1st founding chapters has plenty of access to forge worlds, infact they have access to Garm, one of the largest forge worlds.

Plus if GW gives SW the crusader and or redeamer, it means SW players will go out and buy these models.

If the SW get the BT-thematic Crusader, what makes them different from BT, and vice-versa?

Fur and wolf skulls instead of tabards and chains?

BT mix scouts in their troop SM squad vs SW scouts are elite scouting types

SW get heavy weapon squads, Rune Priests, Acute senses, counter attack, large numbers of power weapons on troops and whirlwinds. BT get nothing like them.

BT run forward when shot and have vows that do all kinds of wierd sillyness. They are also cheaper per model.

wyomingfox wrote:
Plus if GW gives SW the crusader and or redeamer, it means SW players will go out and buy these models.

Which is why Space Wolves WILL have access to them, along with most of (if not all) the new plastic models.

They'll get Terminator access to Drop Pods 'back' as well.

wyomingfox wrote:
You mean like how GW gave DH True Grit, all SM get Venerable Dreads (OK they don't get the reroll on who goes first), SM Tech Priests get servitors (better servitors), and all 40K units get 3rd edition counter attack. SM Honor Guard might as well be WG with all the abundance of cheap wargear and wargear options they get (which was suppose to be the hall mark of the WG) and honor guard are cheaper. So yeah, SM have alot of SW units and abilities. Or how about how SM got unlimmited access to Crusaders (which prior to this was limmited to 1 per army).

DH are suppose to be even more elite than SW, and they do specialize in something different with distinctly different equipment. SM venerable dreadnoughts, is suppose to be a fancy way of saying it has alot of experiance, its one thing to say we don't have "X" because we can't get them and its another thing to expect other marine chapters to maintain dreadnougts to a point where they would be older and wiser than the average dreadnought (look at Iron hands, some of their leaders are dreadnoughts). Honor guard existed in the previous book as Marneus Calgars special squad, there would be a bit of overlap in that regard, but I do think wolfguard will get their own distinctive advantages. Codex SM represents close to 950 chapters, Codex SW's represents ONE chapter and indirectly upto 20 succesors, there is alot more variations between those 950 to the SW's 21 or so.

Given the choice of having scraps from the SM codex or having equally good and distinctively SW units that are just as good, which would you take? You're justified only in comparison of the near decade old codex to the current released few months back codex. Do you stop and think "if they did that to SM what will they do to SW?" instead of "I want what they have."

wyomingfox wrote:
Also, fluff wise, LR varients do follow the combat tactics of the chapter, with the supossed majority of crusaders being wielded by the Black Templars as it fits thier fighting style better (which was why prior to 5th, only templars could have more than 1). Lastly, SW, being one of the 1st founding chapters has plenty of access to forge worlds, infact they have access to Garm, one of the largest forge worlds.

Yeah... somewhere along the way mars must have with held the STC for redeemers and crusaders from Garm, knowing they would share the technology with the SW's who don't follow the Codex Astartes.

wyomingfox wrote:
Plus if GW gives SW the crusader and or redeamer, it means SW players will go out and buy these models.

The same can be said of any model: if GW gave SW bright yellow pogo-sticks of doom, SW player will go out and buy these models. Or even leman russ battle tanks for that matter.

Alpharius wrote:They'll get Terminator access to Drop Pods 'back' as well.

Just to clarify, you do realize they never lost it right? Currently an IC and Wolf Guard Bodyguard squad in TDA can use a drop pod.

edited for grammar train wreck.

I do!

What I meant was they'll get it "back" as 'regular' SM Terminators have lost it.

Sorry for the confusion!

(I know what I meant, but, well...)

aka_mythos wrote:
DH are suppose to be even more elite than SW, and they do specialize in something different with distinctly different equipment. SM venerable dreadnoughts, is suppose to be a fancy way of saying it has alot of experiance, its one thing to say we don't have "X" because we can't get them and its another thing to expect other marine chapters to maintain dreadnougts to a point where they would be older and wiser than the average dreadnought (look at Iron hands, some of their leaders are dreadnoughts). Honor guard existed in the previous book as Marneus Calgars special squad, there would be a bit of overlap in that regard, but I do think wolfguard will get their own distinctive advantages. Codex SM represents close to 950 chapters, Codex SW's represents ONE chapter and indirectly upto 20 succesors, there is alot more variations between those 950 to the SW's 21 or so.

Yeah, they still gave a bunch of our unique SW abilities to everyone else

Given the choice of having scraps from the SM codex or having equally good and distinctively SW units that are just as good, which would you take? You're justified only in comparison of the near decade old codex to the current released few months back codex. Do you stop and think "if they did that to SM what will they do to SW?" instead of "I want what they have."

No, I am saying that SW should keep thier token LRC (1 per army) which they have had since the model came out. My post said that I doubt we would get Vanguard as they are unfluffy and that I doubt we would get stearn guard.

Yeah... somewhere along the way mars must have with held the STC for redeemers and crusaders from Garm, knowing they would share the technology with the SW's who don't follow the Codex Astartes.

I never see that in the fluff?

The same can be said of any model: if GW gave SW bright yellow pogo-sticks of doom, SW player will go out and buy these models. Or even leman russ battle tanks for that matter.

BUT I WANT THE BRIGHT YELLOW POGO-STICKS OF DEATH

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the SW get the BT-thematic Crusader, what makes them different from BT, and vice-versa?

I am arguing that SW should get their token 1 LRC and complaining that Smurfs get 3+.

Who plays with the current LR exterminator?

Blood Claws with Jump Packs are not stepping on Blood Angel Toes because they are Fast Attack and BS/WS3. Just drop the points says I. I never meant let Grey Hunters use them.

As for the new toys I only want the speeder and Land Raider variants for the Wolves. Toss the rest as far as I am concerned.

Wolf Scouts in that Storm speeder sounds like fun.

I use the Exterminator, Wyomingfox.

Well I'm not opposed to SW having the land raider variants as much as I'm in favor of them getting unique and equally viable options in place of them. Like maybe their own Land Raider variant or a Leman Russ battle tank variant (something like a refinement of the design Leman Russ never shared with the IG)

Bright Yellow Pogo Stick of Doom: +20pts
Any model mounted on one moves as cavalry.
Recieves +1T, +1I, +1A
Crushing Blow: All attacks are made as if by a powerfist, using the models initiative.
Bouncing Target: Difficult to hit due to its unpredictable bounce, consider it to have a 4+ cover save.
Defeated by a Yellow Pogo Stick: Any model or unit that suffers a wound at the foot of the Bright Yellow Pogo Stick of Doom, must resolve all tests using a Ld -2, as they have been left morally defeated.

aka_mythos wrote:Well I'm not opposed to SW having the land raider variants as much as I'm in favor of them getting unique and equally viable options in place of them. Like maybe their own Land Raider variant or a Leman Russ battle tank variant (something like a refinement of the design Leman Russ never shared with the IG)

Bright Yellow Pogo Stick of Doom: +20pts
Any model mounted on one moves as cavalry.
Recieves +1T, +1I, +1A
Crushing Blow: All attacks are made as if by a powerfist, using the models initiative.
Bouncing Target: Difficult to hit do to it unpredictable bounce, consider it to have a 4+ cover save.
Defeated by a Yellow Pogo Stick: Any model or unit that suffers a wound at the foot of the Bright Yellow Pogo Stick of Doom, must resolve all tests using a Ld -2, as they have been left morally defeated.

I use the exterminator auto cannons rock

sonofruss wrote:I have been playing space wolves since 2nd ed. I still think nixing the jump pack for bikes fits the fluff a lot more than jump packs do. You should read some of the old fluff from the original codex. It didn't say any thing about jp's they used a drop pod, oh and ragnar shoved a krack grenade in a screamer killer's mouth splatterd bug ewww

Lol, you know your wrong. In that same story by Bill King from the 2nd ed Wolves dex the blood claws squad used jump packs. Go have another look.