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Post by: yakface
Thanks Chris.
For the doubles tournament, is there any way we can find out what players made up these winning teams or what armies they used?
1986
Post by: thehod
Congrats to Gareth Hunt and another event won by the Wrecking Crew.
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Post by: Aldonis
Awesome! Way to go Gareth!
go WC!
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Post by: chiermd
Gareth was Chaos Daemons. The victory would be good if he didnt have to cheat for it. Deploying all of your daemons on turn one and not rolling for scatter is blatant cheating. The good word goes is that he cheated a Dark Eldar player who didnt know Chaos Daemons rules on game 2, but when it was caught the game was already over. He deep struck the entire army all on turn one and arranged his daemons around Fateweaver exactly 6 inches away without ever rolling for scatter. Fateweaver suffered 2 wounds also and he didnt roll to see if he disappeared. He told the Dark Eldar player that because the scenario was Dawn of War he could do this and that he ran it by the judge which the judge vehemently denied. So overall congrats man great job cheating your way to victory.
1985
Post by: Darkness
@chiermd
Leveling accusations of cheating is a tall order. Gareth is a personal friend and has NEVER in all the years I have known tried so much as the smallest cheat.
Were you the DE player? If not have him post. I'm sure Gareth will be saying his side.
60
Post by: yakface
chiermd wrote:Gareth was Chaos Daemons. The victory would be good if he didnt have to cheat for it. Deploying all of your daemons on turn one and not rolling for scatter is blatant cheating. The good word goes is that he cheated a Dark Eldar player who didnt know Chaos Daemons rules on game 2, but when it was caught the game was already over. He deep struck the entire army all on turn one and arranged his daemons around Fateweaver exactly 6 inches away without ever rolling for scatter. Fateweaver suffered 2 wounds also and he didnt roll to see if he disappeared. He told the Dark Eldar player that because the scenario was Dawn of War he could do this and that he ran it by the judge which the judge vehemently denied. So overall congrats man great job cheating your way to victory.
Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.
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Post by: WhiteDevil
Ah. I love Gamer gossip.
Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.
I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.
4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.
Have a nice night.
-Gareth-
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Post by: Railguns
yakface wrote:
Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading heresy.
Fixed your typo.
But seriously, congrats to all.
8453
Post by: calltoarms
yakface wrote:
Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.
I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms. 
I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.
Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.
Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons. Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.
N
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Post by: WhiteDevil
@calltoarms: Sorry you also had a judging issue. Your's was the "turning off power-fists" thing right?
Yea, the time was pretty odd. Due to the terrain truck being late we started late, and they decided to shorten the rounds. Dunno how much they shortened it by, but it felt like 45mins-1 hour. I am a member of the Wrecking Crew, but I don't really travel to any national events like my fellow gamers. As for any of my fellow members being "fuzzy" on the rules, it IS a new edition. It seems the majority of people are still a little "fuzzy" when it comes to certain areas.
Thanks for the congrats everyone.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Congrats, Gareth. I hope you enjoy your Thunderhammer.
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Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
yakface wrote:
Thanks Chris.
For the doubles tournament, is there any way we can find out what players made up these winning teams or what armies they used?
For doubles, we only register team names. I'll be posting pictures of the people who made up the team this evening on our blog, and we should (together) be able to discern which guys made-up which teams as, at the end of the day our overall gaming community is small and for the most part just about everyone knows everyone along the way. I haven't memorized every name for every face, but through the power of the community we should be able to identify and know someone that knows them that might be able to pass on the list they used, right?
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Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
calltoarms wrote:yakface wrote:
Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.
I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms.
I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.
Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.
Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons. Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.
N
Hi all,
So everyone is on the same page in this thread, the last round of the 'Ard Boyz ran from 8:15pm to 10:15pm (two hours, not one). Rounds 1 and 2 did have the full 2.5 hours to play as well at the 1/2 hour breaks in between. So timings were consistent up to round 3 (besides being forced to start later than the published 1:00pm). We did have to shave 1/2 hour from the final round playing time due to forces well beyond our control, but made the best of the situation at hand. Had any other option been available to ensure that last 30 minutes could have been played, we would have made it happen.
Call to Arms, I would be interested to learn what nationally run GW tournaments in the past two years were horribly run? Or are you referring to local events?
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Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
WhiteDevil wrote: Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
-Gareth-
Hi Gareth,
If you have more specific information to impart, or could pass the individuals that have had inconsistent rulings onto me I'd greatly appreciate their feedback. We've made sure, especially for 40K to have the same core team of rules judges at every single GT for the past two years to maintain consistency. If we're not achieving that, than we'll alter what's needed to rectify the situation. However, if the individuals who are receiving inconsistent rulings don't contact us, we cannot be aware of and fix the problem if it exists.
Again, congratulations on your win!
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Post by: WhiteDevil
Hi Gareth,
If you have more specific information to impart, or could pass the individuals that have had inconsistent rulings onto me I'd greatly appreciate their feedback. We've made sure, especially for 40K to have the same core team of rules udges at every single GT for the past two years to maintain consistency. If we're not achieving that, than we'll alter what's needed to rectify the situation. However, if the individuals who are receiving inconsistent rulings don't contact us, we cannot be aware of and fix the problem if it exists.
Again, congratulations on your win!
Well, as I said, it's just what I've been told. I cannot prove it's validity (because I don't frequent the circuit myself, poor college student here), which is why I can just impart second hand knowledge. Having many friends who are always attending national events (I'm sure others do too), I always here about this judges ruling or that judges ruling. I'm sure others hear all about it to. Not just me and calltoarms here. Though the silliest one I was told was from a close friend in the circuit last year, I believe it was at the Chicago GT. He was told by a judge that he could not use his "veil of time" psychic power, because "the game would be more fun" if he didn't. Again, I didn't, and am not saying it is a frequent thing, just that it seems frequent to hear about it.
Thanks for the congratulations. Personally I had a lot of fun in the Ard Boyz finals both this year and last. Thanks for putting on a great event! My friends and I had a great time! 
EDIT: spelling...
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Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
Thanks for the quick reply. As the Wrecking Crew is a very active club at our events (and this obviously goes for all participants in the event), please make sure if something concrete does come up that they contact someone on the community team (we're very available). We want to correct and better those items that are within our realm of control.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
WhiteDevil wrote:@calltoarms: Sorry you also had a judging issue. Your's was the "turning off power-fists" thing right?
Yea, the time was pretty odd. Due to the terrain truck being late we started late, and they decided to shorten the rounds. Dunno how much they shortened it by, but it felt like 45mins-1 hour. I am a member of the Wrecking Crew, but I don't really travel to any national events like my fellow gamers. As for any of my fellow members being "fuzzy" on the rules, it IS a new edition. It seems the majority of people are still a little "fuzzy" when it comes to certain areas.
Thanks for the congrats everyone.
Demon win~~~ Mind posting your general list? Weaver + Horrors/Letters? Gratz on the win.
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Post by: calltoarms
N
Hi all,
So everyone is on the same page in this thread, the last round of the 'Ard Boyz ran from 8:15pm to 10:15pm (two hours, not one). Rounds 1 and 2 did have the full 2.5 hours to play as well at the 1/2 hour breaks in between. So timings were consistent up to round 3 (besides being forced to start later than the published 1:00pm). We did have to shave 1/2 hour from the final round playing time due to forces well beyond our control, but made the best of the situation at hand. Had any other option been available to ensure that last 30 minutes could have been played, we would have made it happen.
Call to Arms, I would be interested to learn what nationally run GW tournaments in the past two years were horribly run? Or are you referring to local events?
1. Were you honestly there? They didn't post pairings until 8:45. I was at a judges table at 8:44 when they posted third round pairings. They ended it at 10, as they were getting kicked out at 10:30. I called the judge over when they made the time announcement, he confessed to the error, and stated they appealed for more time, didn't get it, so had to shorten the third round.
2. For starters, Pick any games day RTT. They're horribly run. Each of them. Especially the atlanta ones before they were nixed.
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Post by: WhiteDevil
Thanks for the quick reply. As the Wrecking Crew is a very active club at our events (and this obviously goes for all participants in the event), please make sure if something concrete does come up that they contact someone on the community team (we're very available). We want to correct and better those items that are within our realm of control.
I will be sure to do so. It's great to see active concern and you guys stiving to always make things better for all involved. You will unfortunately always have some malcontents, though that's the nature of the beast. We gamers are an ornery lot after all. As far as I'm concerned, keep up the good work!
Demon win~~~ Mind posting your general list? Weaver + Horrors/Letters? Gratz on the win.
Thanks. The core of the list is Fateweaver + Crushers. I really just added on to my normal tournament list. I converted the crushers into "counts as" bloodcrushers riding dread-steeds (think warcraft). 5 people at the finals, and 3 at the semis said they were going to steal my idea... I guess it's a compliment? 
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Post by: sabote
Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:calltoarms wrote:yakface wrote:
Unless you witnessed these things yourself you're only spreading hearsay.
I love when non lawyers try to use lawyer terms.
I was there, next to the game as it took place. I stayed out of it, didn't chime in. I can't believe the judge ruled that way, personally disagree with it, and think the judging was, on par, completely foolish throughout the event. At one call, the rulebook, yes, a direct quote, overruled a rule that a judge made (That you could choose not to attack with special weapons). That said, it was a judging call. Judge calls trump. Now, whether that is something that SHOULD have gone to the judge, that's a different question, as we all know codex rules trump rulebook. Wrecking Crew, you have a reputation of being solid gamers, but a bit fuzzy on rules. I've played you guys three times, however, and ALWAYS had a good experience.
Now, is anyone else talking, though, about how (seriously), the third round was barely more then an hour, and we found out we had shortened time after 20 minutes? This was a horribly run tournament (starting way late, different times for each round, terrible judging), all in all, typical GW. I have to be honest, I will not be traveling to another GW event. Period. The independents (Necronomicon, Adepticon, etc.), do it far better.
Congrats Garett, on showing everyone how to win with demons. Not sure anyone saw THAT move coming.
N
Hi all,
So everyone is on the same page in this thread, the last round of the 'Ard Boyz ran from 8:15pm to 10:15pm (two hours, not one). Rounds 1 and 2 did have the full 2.5 hours to play as well at the 1/2 hour breaks in between. So timings were consistent up to round 3 (besides being forced to start later than the published 1:00pm). We did have to shave 1/2 hour from the final round playing time due to forces well beyond our control, but made the best of the situation at hand. Had any other option been available to ensure that last 30 minutes could have been played, we would have made it happen.
Call to Arms, I would be interested to learn what nationally run GW tournaments in the past two years were horribly run? Or are you referring to local events?
Chris-I think your timing is slightly off. I am with Call to Armos on this topic. Maybe it was the intent to have the game run 2 hours but I know in my case we did not have 2 hours of gaming. After deciding to keep my entire army in reserve for the 3rd game the first 2 turns went extremely fast. All in all my opponent and I only finished 4 turns and we had to rush the 4th turn. We had alot of hth but we were not playing slow and our armies were not hoard armies. The shortened time made a big impact in the result of our game. I was pretty near the last gamer outside the staff that left the building becuase it took me a while to pack up and I was leaving out the door right around 10:15 or a few minutes after at most. So I think saying dice down at 10:15 is not quite correct. My opponent checked his time and said we had only been playing for about 1:40 min maybe 1:45.
I am sure there are many that may not have minded the time being shortened and everyone knows the trucks showed up late. But when I pay over $600 for an event ( air, hotel, car,food) there is an expectation that this event will allow me to play the full amount of time. By starting at 12:00pm and having the place close up at 10:00pm does not allow a whole lot of leeway for any potential problems. Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.
I enjoyed the players in all my games but left the overall venue pretty pissed about the tourney because of that 3rd round.
Congrats to the winner
5818
Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
calltoarms wrote:1. Were you honestly there? They didn't post pairings until 8:45. I was at a judges table at 8:44 when they posted third round pairings. They ended it at 10, as they were getting kicked out at 10:30. I called the judge over when they made the time announcement, he confessed to the error, and stated they appealed for more time, didn't get it, so had to shorten the third round.
Indeed, I was there coordinating the show. To be sure, I checked the time stamps on the files, and the final save and print of the round two file is 8:12. The final save and sort on round three is 10:19 (only about 6 games out of the 20 games at the end of round 3 were unscored when dice down was called at 10:15pm). The timestamp on my cell as we called security to lock-up the hall as we walked out with the players after the awards ceremony was 10:40.
calltoarms wrote:
2. For starters, Pick any games day RTT. They're horribly run. Each of them. Especially the atlanta ones before they were nixed.
The RTTs at previous Games Days have proven to be not at the caliber they should be (a whole separate issues of logistical shenanigans) and are being dealt with accordingly for 2009.
Are there other National GW-run tournaments you'd like to cite in the past two years that you felt were sub-par (I'll definitely look into those situations)?
edit: multiquote is my bane.
5818
Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
sabote wrote:By starting at 12:00pm and having the place close up at 10:00pm does not allow a whole lot of leeway for any potential problems.
We usually factor in an extra 5-6 hours in the morning to take care of materials issues to allow for any mishaps. This particular case happened to go beyond the... extraordinary and usual contingency.
sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.
We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.
9974
Post by: sabote
Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.
We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.
At the end of the day thats all I could ask. Thanks for letting us know and getting it fixed for the future.
8453
Post by: calltoarms
sabote wrote:Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.
We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.
Glad I'm not the only one with issues using the quotes. Smart move with the K's. In fairness to you though, I've been to about 40 or so conventions related to 40k, and this one, for whatever reason, seemed to be the most strict on EVERYTHING.
Chris, I really do appreciate your viewing of the forums, and interest in the thoughts expressed here. This is a large change from the past, and it really passes on the message that GW actually does care about gamer's thoughts, etc. Indeed, the regular posting and viewing by GW is what actually brought me out of lurking and posting. Sincerely, I appreciate it. (you're still wrong about the start times though, sorry. My opponent and everyone on our row shared a few coments when the "45 minute" mark was announced. I got away spending less then $600, but am still a bit irritated a day later that I paid what I did for such a horribly timed event. You could have at least nixed a couple of breaks, fought to amend the contract at time of event and make trucking company indemnify you for damages, etc..) (Oh, and how did the doubles tournaments start and finish before ard boys? I can respect if it's a they paid $ for the event and we didn't, but am just curious).
Interesting statement about the games day RTT. I hate to see them pulled, but they were flawed in some many ways. Can you give any specifics as to what you mean by logistical issues? As to other events that I"ve been to, honestly, outside of the games days, I can only cite handful of GT's. They were quite a while back (years, back in the day when you had them at Charlotte and Atlanta, for instance), so I'm not sure my comments on them are valid these days.
I can tell you this though, you must, to have respectibility, have some form of consistent and reasonable judgining, as well as a committment to the timing of the event. Adepticon seems to rule this areas with their detailed FAQ before hand (putting GW's to shame), their knowledge of the rules at their events, and the ability to take the questions they are asked at each event, mull them over afterwards, and add to their FAQ (even admitting when they were wrong). I'm not a fan of Magic (WOTC), but what they've done on a national/international stage with their events, touranments, conventions puts us to shame. Model what you do after them/the guys from adepticon, and a few others, and you'll greatly improve your events.
5818
Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
calltoarms wrote:
Probably the first time this has ever happened, but you know what? There will always be a first and there needs to be a contingency plan.
We've had the convention center amend future contracts this morning to include extending closing time should trucks arrive as grossly late as they did this time. Doesn't fix this instance, but we've learned and adjusted for future events.
Glad I'm not the only one with issues using the quotes. Smart move with the K's. In fairness to you though, I've been to about 40 or so conventions related to 40k, and this one, for whatever reason, seemed to be the most strict on EVERYTHING.
Chris, I really do appreciate your viewing of the forums, and interest in the thoughts expressed here. This is a large change from the past, and it really passes on the message that GW actually does care about gamer's thoughts, etc. Indeed, the regular posting and viewing by GW is what actually brought me out of lurking and posting. Sincerely, I appreciate it. (you're still wrong about the start times though, sorry. My opponent and everyone on our row shared a few coments when the "45 minute" mark was announced. I got away spending less then $600, but am still a bit irritated a day later that I paid what I did for such a horribly timed event. You could have at least nixed a couple of breaks, fought to amend the contract at time of event and make trucking company indemnify you for damages, etc..) (Oh, and how did the doubles tournaments start and finish before ard boys? I can respect if it's a they paid $ for the event and we didn't, but am just curious).
Interesting statement about the games day RTT. I hate to see them pulled, but they were flawed in some many ways. Can you give any specifics as to what you mean by logistical issues? As to other events that I"ve been to, honestly, outside of the games days, I can only cite handful of GT's. They were quite a while back (years, back in the day when you had them at Charlotte and Atlanta, for instance), so I'm not sure my comments on them are valid these days.
I can tell you this though, you must, to have respectibility, have some form of consistent and reasonable judgining, as well as a committment to the timing of the event. Adepticon seems to rule this areas with their detailed FAQ before hand (putting GW's to shame), their knowledge of the rules at their events, and the ability to take the questions they are asked at each event, mull them over afterwards, and add to their FAQ (even admitting when they were wrong). I'm not a fan of Magic (WOTC), but what they've done on a national/international stage with their events, touranments, conventions puts us to shame. Model what you do after them/the guys from adepticon, and a few others, and you'll greatly improve your events.
The trucking company will know the full wrath...
The doubles games only clock in at two hours each (doubles gaming kicked off about 5 minutes after I called out the first round pairings for 'Ard Boyz - though most of the doubles teams were set-up at their tables before the 'Ard Boyz kicked off, so it definitely looked like they started first).
The logistical shenanigans for Games Day RTTs is multi-factored (and I gotta be up for the GT in 5 hours, so I'll save that topic for a later round).
Minus this 'Ard Boyz foul, the past two year's of GTs have been on the money on the logistical side (timing, scoring, etc). We've (finally, and still took far too long) nailed that side of things. Now that processes are in place to keep those items handled, bringing more consistency to the rules side is the next target in our sites.
I again, apologize to all the 'Ard Boyz participants on the late start and shortened third round. Barring natural disasters on the day (and I'll tell you all up front they won't give me a budget for those contingencies...) next year we'll have all the timing flexibility we need.
edit: OK, now the single quote is jinxed...
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
congrats white devil! You rawked their world!
G
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Post by: olympia
WhiteDevil wrote:Ah. I love Gamer gossip.
Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.
I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war.
-Gareth-
You thought that really? Because dawn of war allows you to deploy two troops and one HQ??? Dawn of War allows DS turn 1? Great news.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Come on, not deploy. I'm assuming he means that all but two troops and one hq can start on the table (i.e. if a troop unit had heavy weapons you definitely wanted to shoot) you start them on the table and everything else moves in on your first turn. Now personally the codex rule trumps and he still should have had to deepstrike reserve roll the rest of his army based on the fact that he has special deployment rules but if they judged it differently at the event then hey it happens. I personally at that level would have had 2-3 judges all talk about it and then I would have to accept the judging
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Post by: Ultramar Custodian
I seem to be missing something, because I don't quite understand the controversy.
Dawn of War scenario doesn't have anything to do with Daemon deployment. Daemons always Deep Strike and can do so on turn 1.
regardless of scenario.
What exactly did the judge say that allowed Gareth to do anything that was out of the ordinary?
1963
Post by: Aduro
Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.
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Post by: Kirasu
lol after going to the finals last year Im glad I made the decision to skip it this year .. My fears of more debacles werent unfounded
Saving travel money ftw
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
IIRC, which I don't have the book at work, DOW still uses the reserve rule as well (You can place units in reserve as normal). So I don't see why the Demons would be played differently due to scenario? *Shrug*, give us a 40k Demon FAQ please.
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Post by: Kirasu
I think it would be insulting to release a FAQ that says
Q: Do Demons come in from reserve?
A: Yup!
Could always just not make completely wrong rulings imo
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Post by: proximity
If a mission says that all the rest of your army comes in on turn 1, but the army rules are that its turn 2, I think its more than fair enough to say to a judge "hey, I'm a little confused on how you want to play this, could you please make a ruling?".
The only thing that has saved this thread from marring the entire US scene (throwing cheating accusations around right of the bat is pretty weak) has been Chris Gohlinghorst's genuine requests for feedback to improve, as well as interacting and being completely approachable. You guys honestly don't know how lucky you are to have someone who's not completely apathetic in charge of your tourneys, let alone someone you can actually approach and talk to.
To compare it to what you could have, I once won a GT with a total score of something like 180, a full 15 points or so ahead of whoever was second... except the maximum score you could get in the tournament was 77.
Two weeks later when they realised it might have actually been quite beneficial to read your own players pack for the tournament you're running, everyone had to play musical trophies.
Then they just decided the tournaments weren't economical enough to run, nor were they worth the effort, so decided to scrap them completely, and we now only have the GT because members of the community have stepped in (increasing the quality 10 fold in the process).
We would KILL to have someone like Chris down here, seriously... you should appreciate it.
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Post by: Kirasu
If a mission says that all the rest of your army comes in on turn 1, but the army rules are that its turn 2, I think its more than fair enough to say to a judge "hey, I'm a little confused on how you want to play this, could you please make a ruling?".
That's only because for some reason 90% of 40ks tend NOT to read what Dawn of War actually says.. During 'ard boyz I literally had to remind the entire tournament 3 times that your units are NOT in reserve, they simply move on from the board edge.. However if you read BELOW that part it says "Units in reserve still come on via reserve rules" (Obviously that is paraphrased)
There is no confusion, just another example of people not reading what dawn of war says
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Post by: proximity
Kirasu wrote:
That's only because for some reason 90% of 40ks tend NOT to read what Dawn of War actually says.. During 'ard boyz I literally had to remind the entire tournament 3 times that your units are NOT in reserve, they simply move on from the board edge..
So if you had to keep reminding the entire tournament, shouldn't Gareths confusion on the matter be more than understandable (as you say that everyone else needed clarification as well), and asking a judge for clarification on what he should do be the end of the matter? If theres any ill will on the matter, surely it can't be directed at him, but rather at a possible inconsistency in judgements, which Chris has asked for details on so he can remedy for the future?
I can't see any more amicable a solution than what's currently underway.
Also, being a new edition - I wouldn't be so rough on people for not knowing it like the back of their hand yet.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
I have no quarrel with Gareth, I didnt attend for the reasons listed in this thread (I am weak on faith)
All I want to know is if the judge who made the ruling name started with a D
330
Post by: Mahu
Congrats Gareth?
Are all your Blood Crushers still on the smaller bases?
5232
Post by: Gobstomp420
Hey all. Here's my two cents, wanted or not. I had the esteemed honor of pulling dead last this year. Had some great games and terrible dice, but a blast nonetheless. Any ruling prblems and late starts aside, I thought it odd and maybe a sign of the times with the lessening of prize support. Not to say that the prizes given were shabby. On the contrary, they were great. And I love that as a complete loser, I got a fantasy army to take home. But last year, part of the fun was the random prizes won during the games for odd things. "First person to lose an HQ.....Baneblade for you!" It was great for people like me, who came just for the 'Ard boyz and didn't play in the GT. I feel a bit for people who placed in the middle. But, like I said, probably a sign of the times. I still had a blast and look forward to seeing if I can lose as badly next year. Thanks a lot to the guys who kicked me about, I had a great time losing!
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I think Chris is doing a great job. The terrain trukk arriving late was beyond his control and I am sure they will prepare next year with this in mind.
Again great job White Devil! You rawked their world!
G
3271
Post by: WhiteDevil
Mahu wrote:Congrats Gareth?
Are all your Blood Crushers still on the smaller bases?
No. The only time I ever used just the smaller bases was in the first local RTT I used them in. I based them off the older, much smaller BC (which I have a few of) and not the newer one, as I hadn't seen them in person at the time. After that I bought a bunch of 60mm gale force nine magnetic bases and magnetized them. So they can be on either or. I brought my 24 60mm magnetic bases ready and willing to sue them. Before each and every round I left it up to my opponent as to which bases they wanted me to use. Technically I have more of an advantage with the larger bases (extra movement from the DS, less vulnerable to blasts, way easier to multi-charge), but I still ended up using the smaller bases as per my opponents request. Most didn't seem to care either way. As per 5th edition rules, any differing base sizes require opponent permission, hence why I left it up to them. 
EDIT: Although as a side note, I heard later on from a friend the "whisperings" about my smaller bases. If said individuals had just asked me about them, they would have gotten the above explanation. But I guess they were content to whisper bad things to themselves. Quite the friendly gaming community eh? 
Aduro wrote:Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.
I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling.
Green Blow Fly wrote:I think Chris is doing a great job. The terrain trukk arriving late was beyond his control and I am sure they will prepare next year with this in mind.
Again great job White Devil! You rawked their world!
G
Thanks again GBF, and I agree, Chris did try to do the best he could with what he had. We can't really ask for anything more. 
9178
Post by: chiermd
"I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling."
I agree with folks nope I wasnt there I'm not the DE player, but the DE player seemed pretty upset when he figured out what happened. He was definitely a great player and guy who IMO really has no reason to spread this. Here's a question for you though if you "deep struck half you army in anyways why arent you just flat out denying impropriety instead of stating that it was a judging issue. If you really deep struck half your army then you played the rules correctly thus the confusion however you state below.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
Why would you think the issue would come up? If you really kept half your army off the board then what you really should be saying is no I never did that and there was no issue with the judges. Why would you ask the judge anything? Either you played it correctly or you didnt and at the level of the finals for the Ard Boyz people KNOW their rules for THEIR codex.
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
The scatter issue is with the DE player he says you placed instead of scatter on turn one because of a chaos icon thus placing all your troops neatly arranged around Fateweaver.
3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.
Thats very nice that you went to every length that he understood your army. Did you explain to your opponent that you were to divide your army in half, pick one of them and then roll to see if the chaos gods favored you? The poor guy never heard anything about that and I'm sure would have prompted him to ask a judge about the deep striking.
4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
When ALL the judges were approached about the issue no judge stated that they ruled it that way and in fact stated that you played it illegally. Hey man if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but it sounds incredibly suspect.
1985
Post by: Darkness
Were all the judges approached? And why didnt the DE player ask a judge on the spot?
Im sorry, but this seems like beating a dead horse.
1986
Post by: thehod
It reminds me of my counter strike days where someone got killed and instantly blamed the guy who killed him using an aim bot or wall hacking.
4095
Post by: proximity
Darkness wrote:Were all the judges approached? And why didnt the DE player ask a judge on the spot?
Im sorry, but this seems like beating a dead horse.
Agreed.
chiermd - I'm gonna assume you're trolling, as he's obviously not saying he deployed the daemons via normal circumstances, but rather that he chose to keep about half the units back in reserve anyway, despite being told by a judge that they could all come down in turn one if he wished.
Any of these that came down in subsequent turns would have popped down off icons.
He clearly only mentioned it as you were initially claiming that he left none in reserve at all.
Its one thing to spark e-drama that has nothing to do with you because you're bored, but its another to start cramming words down the poor guys throat.
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Post by: WhiteDevil
chiermd wrote:I agree with folks nope I wasnt there I'm not the DE player, but the DE player seemed pretty upset when he figured out what happened. He was definitely a great player and guy who IMO really has no reason to spread this. Here's a question for you though if you "deep struck half you army in anyways why arent you just flat out denying impropriety instead of stating that it was a judging issue. If you really deep struck half your army then you played the rules correctly thus the confusion however you state below.
I said about half my army. Implying that it really wasn't that big a deal anyway. It's obvious based on the responses in this thread alone, that not everyone thinks its an incorrect ruling. Gamers as well as the judges at the event obviously have different opinions on the matter. As proximity pointed out, your twisting my words.
chiermd wrote:If you really kept half your army off the board then what you really should be saying is no I never did that and there was no issue with the judges. Why would you ask the judge anything?
See above. Again, your twisting my words. It was a preemptive question. Not knowing whom my opponent would be, I may have DS'ed my whole army in. I may not have. The ruling was the same at my semi-final location and I wanted to see how the official GW judges would rule it. As you should know by now, the guy I talked to ruled the same way, that the mission takes priority.
chiermd wrote:The scatter issue is with the DE player he says you placed instead of scatter on turn one because of a chaos icon thus placing all your troops neatly arranged around Fateweaver.
One of you are very mistaken on this front my friend. Most of my units got a "hit" on the scatter dice. But one or two of them did scatter. My Keeper was out of the 6inch bubble for instance. The POINT is, I DID roll my scatter dice for EVERY unit. It's a pretty big accusation to say something so fundamental was not done.
chiermd wrote:Thats very nice that you went to every length that he understood your army. Did you explain to your opponent that you were to divide your army in half, pick one of them and then roll to see if the chaos gods favored you? The poor guy never heard anything about that and I'm sure would have prompted him to ask a judge about the deep striking.
Wrong once again sir. Perhaps if you were actually there you wouldn't be trying to spread this completely unfounded accusations. I DID in fact explain to him that usually my army is deployed uniquely from reserves. Due to the judge ruling however, I was told I could bring in any unit I didn't want to hold back on turn one, as that is what the mission states.
chiermd wrote:When ALL the judges were approached about the issue no judge stated that they ruled it that way and in fact stated that you played it illegally. Hey man if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but it sounds incredibly suspect.
Again, were you there? No, thought not. My opponent approached me after the game and said A not both judge ruled differently. I told him sorry, but I got a different ruling from the a judge. He asked me which one that was and I told him. We then established it was a different judge. He shrugged and walked off. That was that. End of the issue as far as I was concerned. Apparently for some its not.
proximity wrote:
chiermd - I'm gonna assume you're trolling, as he's obviously not saying he deployed the daemons via normal circumstances, but rather that he chose to keep about half the units back in reserve anyway, despite being told by a judge that they could all come down in turn one if he wished.
Any of these that came down in subsequent turns would have popped down off icons.
He clearly only mentioned it as you were initially claiming that he left none in reserve at all.
Its one thing to spark e-drama that has nothing to do with you because you're bored, but its another to start cramming words down the poor guys throat.
Agreed. Please chermind, think next time before you embark on slandering anther's name over the internet without knowing both sides, let alone what actually happened.
I don't think you would appreciate it if the shoe were on the other foot. Instead of enjoying my first 1st place in any National event, I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth due to a few individuals such as yourself.
EDIT: Thanks for the support guys. Especially from those I don't even know.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
WhiteDevil wrote:Mahu wrote:Aduro wrote:Deep Strike ALL of his Demons on turn 1.
I didn't end up DS'ing them all in. About half of my army was in reserve anyway (see my earlier post). Yes, I know the codex trumps the rule book in most situations. But I was told by the judge that the mission takes priority. Again, judge ruling.
The thing I don't get, is if you say codex trumps the rule book (don't know why you add "most", because unless otherwise it is FAQ, codex, BRB in authority order) it just sounds like me you were hoping for the ruling to go a particular way you wanted? why would you ask otherwise?
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Post by: sabote
While I dont think the Demons should have been allowed to set up outside the codex rules. I dont see how it really matters. The following options should have been looked at by the opponent.
1. Demon player had to set up first and at that point declares whats coming on first turn or being kept in reserve. ( opponent should have looked at the lists if there was any question on what was not deployed.
2. Demon player set up second and the opponent and declared 1st turn and reserve. So unless intiative was seized at this point by the demons that is about the only way I could see it working out bad for the other guy(and maybe the opponenet was under the assumption the demons were playing by the codex but did not know a ruling had been made for the dawn of war). But it does not sound like it played out that way.
3. Demon player played the army according to the codex so the opponent would know the following because of the demon players roll.
a. what part of the army was coming in first
b. what part of the army was coming in second
Wether you played against demons or not you have the list in front of you to let you know what is on the board or off. At that point you make a tactical plan based off the knowledge. I am assuming the demon player stated what was coming on first turn and was being kept in reserve so whats the problem? He does not have to teach his opponent how to play against demons. With the demon list in hand and viewing the board I would think any opponent could still plan a battle plan.
So yeah I dont think it was ruled right. But I hardly think that was the deciding factor.
Again Congrats on the overall.
BTW still sulking over the shortened third round after 2 days
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Post by: Kallbrand
Sounds like you planned to get a diffrent ruling then whats in the rules and you did, quite impressive. Still doesnt make it any less cheating tho.
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Post by: proximity
Sounds like it was played one way at a tourney he was at before, so said "hey im not sure how its supposed to go, they did it this way, but how do you want to play it?".
Assuming he knew exactly how it should be played and that he was of the opinion that it was set in stone, but fishing for an answer is pretty big as far as assumptions go. Surely a 30 second browse through the "you make the call" forum tells you there are plenty of people out there who don't know the rulebook cover to cover verbatim?
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
White Devil stated he had the same issue during the semis... This why he conferred with the judge.
G
330
Post by: Mahu
I only take exception to the bases because it would make your initial deepstrike harder to place, so one can argue that you have an advantage either way. But if you got opponents permission, then that is between the two of you.
As far as the judge ruling, I am trying hard to understand the situation here. Your codex always trumps your mission set up, it is a fundamental balancing point with that codex. Why would you have even asked in the first place? To me is seems obvious that you follow the rules for Deamonic Assault over Dawn of War. However, judge ruling is judge ruling, when you attend a tournament, that is what takes precedent, so I don't think you did anything wrong.
However, I don't want it to sound like I am trying to down play your accomplishment in anyway. I am happy that one of Central Florida's better players took the top spot. Hopefully, Florida Area gamers will start to gain a reputation as top players because of this.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
with Marc Parker, Brian Poole, Gareth Hunt and the Hod all living here in Florida I would say this state has an awesome reputation. Personally I believe Gareth is the best tournament player I have ever met and I am sure he will improve even more so. We traveled together a lot two years ago playing at RTTs across the state and he always seemed to finish in the top two. He also has created some armies that were copied around the country. That is saying a lot for someone only 21.
G
121
Post by: Relapse
The sixth place finisher at 'Ard Boyz had quite a phenomenal run himself. If I understand correctly, he massacred every opponent he faced throughout the entire series of tournaments and went into his last game at the national in first place. He had a bad first and second turn and was down 10-0 going into the third turn. From that point on, he made a steady comeback until time was called and he ended up with a minor loss at 11-10. I'm not sure how a tie would have placed him, but the fact that he isn't even a regular 40k player(he gets in maybe a couple of games a month, depending on family needs and work and hasn't done a tournament in years) speaks highly of his level of skill.
He said it was an extremely good experience and he might start playing tournaments again due to the cool people he ran into throughout his series of games.
It'd be interesting to see how many other players at the tournaments have similar or equally interesting stories to put a positive spin back into this thread.
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Post by: Danny Internets
Green Blow Fly wrote:White Devil stated he had the same issue during the semis... This why he conferred with the judge.
G
So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
He was checking since it came up before. That is smart since obviously it was not clear.
G
1985
Post by: Darkness
Danny Internets wrote:So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.
I believe the fact that he had issues with this in the semis makes it ambiguous.
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Post by: Budzerker
Danny Internets wrote:
So because he was able to manipulate the situation once to gain a favorable rating for himself that means it's ok to do it again? Judges should only be called in to make rulings on ambiguous situations, not ones with clear solutions in the rules.
Kallbrand wrote:Sounds like you planned to get a diffrent ruling then whats in the rules and you did, quite impressive. Still doesnt make it any less cheating tho.
fullheadofhair wrote:
The thing I don't get, is if you say codex trumps the rule book it just sounds like me you were hoping for the ruling to go a particular way you wanted? why would you ask otherwise?
OH NOES! A tournament gamer checking to see if a mission possibly favors him or not?! No one does that! Everyone is 100% clear on the rules all the time right?
It's not like we have hundreds of pages dedicated to rule arguments on this site alone...
Asking a judge to make a ruling is HARDLY cheating. He obviously did think it was "ambiguous" (not clear), so do other people here. Or do I really have to quote all of them too? He stated several times he didn't think the rule was all that clear, and again, went to get a judge ruling. Sounds to me like you guys need to semmer and look at this more objectionably.
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Post by: Mannahnin
I think the reasoning is questionable, given that Dawn of War (by the book) makes up 1/3 of all games played. It seems like strained reasoning to think that the codex’s unique deployment rule is meant to be overridden in a third of all standard missions.
Still, Gareth clearly played very well and had a great run. Congratulations to him and to the Wrecking Crew. Cold Steel Mercs were happy to put two players in the top three (even if they were tied for third ), and had some great games along the way. I was just disappointed to miss participating again this year. Looking forward to next time!
1300
Post by: methoderik
Yah, crazy 'Ard boyz...
221
Post by: Frazzled
Were there marine players with drop pod forces? How were those deployed? (IIRC its a similar structure now)
8471
Post by: olympia
Mahu wrote:Congrats Gareth?
Are all your Blood Crushers still on the smaller bases?
This is just too damn funny. A deepstrike army using small bases...that's just too l33t for words. I'm glad the bases are all better now...
edit: technical question. At the time you were using them, by how much did the smaller bases reduce the unit's footprint?
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Post by: Cruentus
Mannahnin wrote:I think the reasoning is questionable, given that Dawn of War (by the book) makes up 1/3 of all games played. It seems like strained reasoning to think that the codex’s unique deployment rule is meant to be overridden in a third of all standard missions.
I'm not sure I agree here. GW create a 5th edition ruleset, very clearly understanding that 1/3 of the missions are Dawn of War. Then they create a Daemon codex for 5th edition that says "this is how you deploy your army". It doesn't say, "this is how you deploy your army, except in Dawn of War." Why wouldn't they override one third of the standard missions for a 5th edition codex?
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. You deploy as your codex describes. I could imagine confusion if it was a 3rd edition codex or had something that was clearly contradictory. That would be like an IG player asking a judge at the beginning of the tournament whether his 5-man command squads each offered up two kill points in Kill Point games (hoping the judge says no, its one kill point - could happen - and if he said yes, no harm in trying), because, you know, 1/3 of all games are Kill Point games, and the IG codex's unique army structure wouldn't be a detriment to the army in 1/3 of the games played, would it?
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Post by: WhiteDevil
olympia wrote:
This is just too damn funny. A deepstrike army using small bases...that's just too l33t for words. I'm glad the bases are all better now...
edit: technical question. At the time you were using them, by how much did the smaller bases reduce the unit's footprint?
The first bases were 40mm, because that's what the old crushers fit on. Upon seeing the new ones on 60mms I immediately got the new bases. I have had them with new bases for the last 3 tournaments I've been in, including this one.
Once again, I honestly did not see the rule as clear cut as some of you seem to think it is. Other people out there obviously feel the same way I do. That in itself proves it's NOT so clear cut. I asked a judge about it. What more do you want me to do? That's what the judges are there for. If he had ruled differently I would have played differently, I already explained that I didn't start my whole army on the board anyway (several times).
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Post by: stormboy97
Great job G
Has everyone posting here played in the ard boys????
The missions are made and ruled on by the trade sales guys...think about that for a secound...
who remembers last years missions where your whole army had to start on the board? drop pods and all on turn one.
heres another example, you roll to choose sides and deploy your army and go first per the rulebook..right
wrong...they put another line on the missions where it says to then roll to go first and thats how the ard boy guys said to do it...
infiltrate, reserves, deep strike all in effect at all times per the rule book right? wrong ..only when the missions said they were..
the real confusion is that the missions for the ard boys need to be standardized with the rule book and the GT's.
A great weekend with two good tournaments
9988
Post by: Budzerker
stormboy97 wrote:Great job G
Has everyone posting here played in the ard boys????
The missions are made and ruled on by the trade sales guys...think about that for a secound...
who remembers last years missions where your whole army had to start on the board? drop pods and all on turn one.
heres another example, you roll to choose sides and deploy your army and go first per the rulebook..right
wrong...they put another line on the missions where it says to then roll to go first and thats how the ard boy guys said to do it...
infiltrate, reserves, deep strike all in effect at all times per the rule book right? wrong ..only when the missions said they were..
the real confusion is that the missions for the ard boys need to be standardized with the rule book and the GT's.
A great weekend with two good tournaments
All examples where the mission takes priority. Which is what the judge ruled. There is still nothing underhanded here. Despite what some of these drama queens think...
Here's what your doing, courtesy of proximity:
Poor, poor, dead horse...
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Post by: DarthDiggler
WhiteDevil wrote:olympia wrote:
This is just too damn funny. A deepstrike army using small bases...that's just too l33t for words. I'm glad the bases are all better now...
edit: technical question. At the time you were using them, by how much did the smaller bases reduce the unit's footprint?
The first bases were 40mm, because that's what the old crushers fit on. Upon seeing the new ones on 60mms I immediately got the new bases. I have had them with new bases for the last 3 tournaments I've been in, including this one.
Once again, I honestly did not see the rule as clear cut as some of you seem to think it is. Other people out there obviously feel the same way I do. That in itself proves it's NOT so clear cut. I asked a judge about it. What more do you want me to do? That's what the judges are there for. If he had ruled differently I would have played differently, I already explained that I didn't start my whole army on the board anyway (several times).
I'm just glad you won and not Yen-te. At the semifinals in Wisconsin, Yen-te tied his third round opponent. Seeing that this would mean they both would be out of the hunt they agreed to dice off and the winner would get the massacre. Yen-te won the die roll and ended up finishing 1st. In the first round in Naperville Yen-te was playing with a relative each game. They both would consider moves and discuss strategy during the game. The GW staff said this was fine since Yen-te claimed he was there to just help his relative move the figs around. I never thought he would be able to get away with it all the way to 2nd place. Hearing that the rounds were shortened up, I'm sure he slow played his Orks to get the win or maybe make another deal to roll dice for the massacre.
Tournaments should be run by tournament people, exclusively. If you don't have that at GW with the high turnover rate or lack of experience among employees it should be brought in from experienced tournament people. I had a blast last year at the Ard Boyz. It seemed everyone kept an eye on everyone else. This year it doesn't sound the same. Of course the complainers will make the most noise so without being there first hand it is hard to tell.
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Post by: Danny Internets
Green Blow Fly wrote:He was checking since it came up before. That is smart since obviously it was not clear.
G
It's pretty clear if you, you know, read the codex, which is extremely explicit in how the army deploys. The ambiguity only resulted when someone tried to ignore the fact that codex rules > rulebook rules, and found a simpleton judge to agree.
I've seen this kind of stuff happen many, MANY times at tournaments. Usually it doesn't even come down to who is right, it comes down to either (a) who is more persuasive, or (b) who is more obstinate. At the very least it's possible to manipulate a judge (either by persuading him or refusing to back down) into offering a roll-off, even when one player is clearly wrong. This sounds eerily similar to that, which is unfortunate because it seems to have decided the outcome of the tournament.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
This all seems pretty silly. Its been made pretty clear, despite a judge's ruling to the contrary that would have allowed him to do differently, WhiteDevil followed the rules. If anything I think WhiteDevil further followed the spirit of the rules by going with his codex despite what could have been a favorable advantage. I don't know if that was his intent but its commendable if it was.
If there was honestly something questionable occuring it should have been addressed before the end of the tournament not after it. This is not the time or place for this sort of rudeness. Don't be a sore loser.
Congrats WhiteDevil. Just take this as a challenge to prove them wrong the next time around.
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
What we know....
1. 2 different bases were/could of been used, depending on opponent preferences.
2. Idiot judge made favorable ruling for Daemons.
Can you blame WhiteDevil for any of this? Probably not!
but
You can call into question motive and the trying to "gain advantage". (I see this as general going to war and surveying battlefield before the war)
What all you need to ask yourselves is this. Would you have done the same thing? I would have, maybe not the bases trick, but certainly asking judge for clarifications.
This was the 'Ard Boyz.....it clearly states no crying, bring your 'ardest lists, and go for glory!
Congrats to winner. Let it be done.
3271
Post by: WhiteDevil
Danny Internets wrote:This sounds eerily similar to that, which is unfortunate because it seems to have decided the outcome of the tournament.
It didn't decide the outcome of the tournament at all.
Which makes all this even more frustrating. It was the capture and control/kill points mission, round 2. None of my reserves (still almost half my army) came in on round 2 or 3 anyway. And my opponent still managed to contest the objectives, since I don't really have the means to kill all 14 skimmers (that can contest) with my list. Even so I killed off the army minus 3 skimmers by game end. He killed almost nothing completely, so regardless I won with kill points. Having 1 or 2 less units on the board would not have put much of a dent in the kill points I got off him.
What did I get from all this? A MINOR VICTORY.
If either of the guys on table 1 (in round 3) had gotten even a major win, I would not have won the tournament. As it turned out, neither did, so I won.
Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I would have, maybe not the bases trick, but certainly asking judge for clarifications.
Wasen't a bases "trick". It was just a slight conversion mistake that was quickly remedeed.
EDIT: Thanks again for the support people. Especially those I don't even know.
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Post by: Lemartes
Congratulations. Nice to see Daemons win as a popular opinion on the boards is they are useless.
6931
Post by: frgsinwntr
This is more of a "flame the winner" thread now then anything else. I don't see a point to it as it makes it a non-friendly community, cheater or not, the game was between him and his opponent and if both had fun, then that is the point of this hobby most people lose sight of.
I put in my vote to lock this no longer productive thread
60
Post by: yakface
Just to clarify for everyone who isn't already aware, there IS NO CONTRADICTION between the Dawn of War deployment rules and the Chaos Daemon's 'Daemonic Assault' rule.
'Dawn of War' (p93 of the rulebook) says:
"He can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table. . ."
and:
"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve."
'Daemonic Assault' (p27 of the Daemons codex) says:
"No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used."
So, as you can see from the Dawn of War rules, the extra units you aren't able to deploy come onto the table on the first turn, but this is different from units you place into reserve, which come in using the normal rules for reserves (typically starting on turn 2).
The Daemon Codex forces the player to put everything he has into Reserves, which is actually something any army can choose to do if they want (in which case other armies start rolling for their Reserves on turn 2).
Of course the Daemons also have a special rule about how their Reserves arrive, which they naturally continue to follow.
In the end we simply have a case of a bad ruling on the part of the tournament judges, which is something that can and will always occur as judges are human and they make mistakes. This certainly can't be cheating unless their is some kind of strange collusion issue going on between the player and the judges and I don't think anyone is silly enough to try to throw out that implication.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
I have to laugh when I see people trying to attack a college student because he converted his crushers rather buy the model at $50 apiece then when he found out the bases are 60 mm not 40 mm he bought them and magnetized the original bases he used. I would have never guessed the base is 60 mm without opening the box. I think some people like to jump on the band wagon and complain for the sake of complaining then wait for the next train wreck to come along.
G
6191
Post by: biztheclown
The base thing is clearly a red herring.
The reserves thing? Well, if dude was really unclear and really thought that this would be only a small advantage, then a person who knows nearly nothing about 40K won the big prize. It's not about whether stuff was in reserve. Its about whether he split his force in half then rolled to see what half he got. If he did not do this, then he bypassed the main reason "people on the boards" thought the deamon codex would not win. In my mind though, Occams Razor says this was a pretty egregious case of "working the refs."
"I'm a glass half broken and shoved into someones face kinda guy..."
True dat.
1523
Post by: Saldiven
yakface wrote:Just to clarify for everyone who isn't already aware, there IS NO CONTRADICTION between the Dawn of War deployment rules and the Chaos Daemon's 'Daemonic Assault' rule.
'Dawn of War' (p93 of the rulebook) says:
"He can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table. . ."
and:
"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve."
'Daemonic Assault' (p27 of the Daemons codex) says:
"No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used."
So, as you can see from the Dawn of War rules, the extra units you aren't able to deploy come onto the table on the first turn, but this is different from units you place into reserve, which come in using the normal rules for reserves (typically starting on turn 2).
The Daemon Codex forces the player to put everything he has into Reserves, which is actually something any army can choose to do if they want (in which case other armies start rolling for their Reserves on turn 2).
Of course the Daemons also have a special rule about how their Reserves arrive, which they naturally continue to follow.
In the end we simply have a case of a bad ruling on the part of the tournament judges, which is something that can and will always occur as judges are human and they make mistakes. This certainly can't be cheating unless their is some kind of strange collusion issue going on between the player and the judges and I don't think anyone is silly enough to try to throw out that implication.
Um, I hate to disagree, but there is conflict between the rules. Just check the points that I made bold in your post. DoW deployment says that the player may place up to two troops and an HQ on their half of the table, while the Daemonic Assault rule states that "no model from the army is ever placed on the board during deployment."
The mission rules say you can deploy, the codex says you can't.
I am not saying this is what occurred here, but it would be a huge advantage to the Daemon player to have a well placed icon already on the board when the first units of the Daemonic Assault started coming in.
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Saldiven wrote:yakface wrote:Just to clarify for everyone who isn't already aware, there IS NO CONTRADICTION between the Dawn of War deployment rules and the Chaos Daemon's 'Daemonic Assault' rule.
'Dawn of War' (p93 of the rulebook) says:
"He can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table. . ."
and:
"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve."
'Daemonic Assault' (p27 of the Daemons codex) says:
"No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used."
So, as you can see from the Dawn of War rules, the extra units you aren't able to deploy come onto the table on the first turn, but this is different from units you place into reserve, which come in using the normal rules for reserves (typically starting on turn 2).
The Daemon Codex forces the player to put everything he has into Reserves, which is actually something any army can choose to do if they want (in which case other armies start rolling for their Reserves on turn 2).
Of course the Daemons also have a special rule about how their Reserves arrive, which they naturally continue to follow.
In the end we simply have a case of a bad ruling on the part of the tournament judges, which is something that can and will always occur as judges are human and they make mistakes. This certainly can't be cheating unless their is some kind of strange collusion issue going on between the player and the judges and I don't think anyone is silly enough to try to throw out that implication.
Um, I hate to disagree, but there is conflict between the rules. Just check the points that I made bold in your post. DoW deployment says that the player may place up to two troops and an HQ on their half of the table, while the Daemonic Assault rule states that "no model from the army is ever placed on the board during deployment."
The mission rules say you can deploy, the codex says you can't.
I am not saying this is what occurred here, but it would be a huge advantage to the Daemon player to have a well placed icon already on the board when the first units of the Daemonic Assault started coming in.
That's a pretty big stretch. If you follow that to its logical conclusion, then the other missions that state 'He then deploys his force....' contradict the Demonic Assault special rule as well. Reserves is still an option in DOW, thus I don't see the issue.
If DOW had stated 'Reserves may not be used in this mission but instead...' then there might be room for an argument. However, even then the assault rules specify you use the demonic reserve even in missions that do not normally allow it (Which means they knew about the new scenario book when the demonic dex was hitting, as all current official missions allow reserves).
1523
Post by: Saldiven
It isn't an issue of whether or not a player may place models in reserve.
It's an issue of whether a player may deploy models on the board.
The Daemon player is specifically prohibited from deploying models on the board at the start of the game. Period. No negotiation. If a Daemon player were allowed to place a few icons on the board during deployment, and then start their Daemonic Assault rolls, it would defeat the majority of the hazard of playing the army: the vaguaries of deep strike deviation.
Once again, I don't know if this is what happened in this game or not. I was merely pointing out that there is conflict between the DoW and Daemonic Assault rules, as one allows deployment of forces, and the other does not. Daemons have their own rules for how they enter play, and deploying models before turn 1 is not one of those rules.
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Saldiven wrote:It isn't an issue of whether or not a player may place models in reserve.
It's an issue of whether a player may deploy models on the board.
The Daemon player is specifically prohibited from deploying models on the board at the start of the game. Period. No negotiation. If a Daemon player were allowed to place a few icons on the board during deployment, and then start their Daemonic Assault rolls, it would defeat the majority of the hazard of playing the army: the vaguaries of deep strike deviation.
Once again, I don't know if this is what happened in this game or not. I was merely pointing out that there is conflict between the DoW and Daemonic Assault rules, as one allows deployment of forces, and the other does not. Daemons have their own rules for how they enter play, and deploying models before turn 1 is not one of those rules.
Every scenario allows deployment of forces. I don't understand how this would effect the Demonic Assault rules.
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Post by: Aldonis
Umm...here's Gareth - the winners post on this topic. What is the conflict - notice he says he kept half his force in reserve ANYWAY - regardless of how the judge ruled. Demon's always start their entire army in reserves - with 1/2 coming in at the start of the game. Biggest thing that may have been missed was the selection of force a or force b - and that is not going to sway the game one way or the other.
I suggest the community quit trying to ding the guy - who followed what the judges told him to do - and simply say "CONGRATULATIONS".
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.
4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.
Have a nice night.
60
Post by: yakface
Saldiven wrote:
Um, I hate to disagree, but there is conflict between the rules. Just check the points that I made bold in your post. DoW deployment says that the player may place up to two troops and an HQ on their half of the table, while the Daemonic Assault rule states that "no model from the army is ever placed on the board during deployment."
The mission rules say you can deploy, the codex says you can't.
I am not saying this is what occurred here, but it would be a huge advantage to the Daemon player to have a well placed icon already on the board when the first units of the Daemonic Assault started coming in.
That is not a conflict. The mission rules give you an option to deploy, and the army specific rules say you cannot deploy. Since you cannot break a rule, a Daemon player is not allowed to deploy his forces or he would be breaking his codex specific rules.
This is how all rules in the game work. You have rules that allow to do things and then you have rules which specifically restrict you from doing things. In such situations you are not allowed to do said thing.
Just an example to help you understand:
The basic rules could say: A model may move 'X' inches in the movement phase.
And then the rules for immobilized vehicles say: vehicles that have suffered an immobilized result cannot move in the movement phase.
So you have two rules here, one that allows you to do something and one that restricts you from doing something. Is this a conflict of rules?
Of course not, you're just not allowed to move the vehicle since you cannot willingly break a rule.
But regardless of whether the rule is clear or not, players in tournaments can often have questions about how things are supposed to be played and it is the job of the judge to tell them what to do in the case that he ask them.
In this case, the wrong ruling was rendered, but that is the nature of the beast. In no way can you blame the player for the judge's ruling.
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Post by: pheobus290
I was one of the judges and I didn’t hear boo about this issue at all on Friday. That’s VERY, VERY… let me say that again… VERY unusual given how frequently we confer. We probably huddle up about 10 times per round over trivial matters. When controversial matters pop up, we tend to get multiple judges involved before a final ruling is even made.
I heard about this on Saturday from an Ard Boyz participant who was so sure that the winner cheated. I later told a friend and immediately caught myself and admitted that I was probably passing on fourth-hand information. The bottom line is that a lot of people are calling into question the character of a young man who probably doesn’t deserve it. You can all argue your points, but it will all come to no good.
The one true horror about the whole thing was that they didn’t have enough time to finish their third game. And you guys have to understand that we (GW) had NO control over that at all for reasons already discussed. GW paid very good money for both the hall and the shipping. We got screwed there, too. For what I recall Go-Go gave you as much notice as possible because while we were playing our games he was trying to get an extension on the hall. Given that extra time the top three could have come from different tables. (The rounds should be 3 hours long anyway IMO).
Prize Support: Those prizes were awesome. Was someone complaining about that?
Dudley: “36 presents? Last year I got 37.”
Aunt Petunia: “We’ll got out and buy you two more tomorrow.”
And finally, regarding the comments about the idiot judges; have you ever been an official for anything? It stings a bit to be called an idiot. We are volunteers. If I wasn’t an official at the GT, I would have been a player just like the rest of you. I saw lots of good players sorting through their codices and rulebooks. It happens. The vast majority of the time I was asked a question, I looked it up to be sure and I’ve been playing weekly since 5th came out. That being said, there were far fewer questions in 5th this year than in 4th which to me is evidence that rules are tighter. When I left on Sunday, I had the impression that this was the smoothest GT I’ve attended or officiated.
So, in conclusion:
This sounds like sour grapes.
Stop adding fuel to the fire.
I can’t think of any other good idioms.
Go-Go does and awesome job.
We all worked hard to make this a great tournament.
Congrats to the winners.
David Strimple
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Post by: Ozymandias
Congrats Gareth, good job on your win. Don't let anyone put an * next to your Ardboyz win!!
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: proximity
So to paraphrase the thread so far:
Some wild accusations have been made, the winner has been robbed of any sense of achievement, and instead been left feeling a bit sh*t, and not only has the organiser, but also the volunteers been directly insulted, which they (rightly so) take offense to.
Pretty good string of achievements so far. Quick, lets go see if we can get Christmas canceled while we're at it!
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
****edited after reading some more responses****
Good job on winning!
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Post by: dietrich
Without knowing motive, we have no way to determine intent. Without intent, I have no desire to throw anyone under the bus.
I'm like Yak, I don't see where there's any confusion over deployment for DoW.
However, it seems there's a lot of things over the years that have been 'regional' in either being an issue or the 'answer' to an issue. That's to be expected. One or two people learn the rules really well and 'teach' everyone else how to play it. Including all their own errors - I remember this from Bloodbowl especially, but 40k too (drop pods on bases, terrain heights for hills adding with model height, etc.).
Congrats Gareth.
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Post by: Budzerker
proximity wrote:So to paraphrase the thread so far:
Some wild accusations have been made, the winner has been robbed of any sense of achievement, and instead been left feeling a bit sh*t, and not only has the organiser, but also the volunteers been directly insulted, which they (rightly so) take offense to.
Pretty good string of achievements so far. Quick, lets go see if we can get Christmas canceled while we're at it!
/Santa
MERRY CHRISTMAS ONE AND ALL!!!
I know I few naughty little boys who are getting coal in their stockings!
HO! HO! HO!
/End_Santa
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Post by: rcm2216
WhiteDevil wrote:Ah. I love Gamer gossip.
Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.
I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.
4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.
Have a nice night.
-Gareth-
What army did you play against. How did the battles go down.............
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Post by: WhiteDevil
rcm2216 wrote:
What army did you play against. How did the battles go down.............
I played against nids, and then 2 of the 3 DE players. As for the battles, I would have to type up a whole Battle Report. Which of course would be inappropriate in this thread. I personally had no problems with any opponents, the games all went fairly smoothly, despite the time issue of course. As I've stated already, it was a great event, with great support, and an over-all friendly atmosphere.
I am not jaded in any way, and as Ozymandias, King of Kings stated above, I will not "let anyone put an * next to [my] Ardboyz win"
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Post by: Somnicide
They are just hating because daemons aren't supposed to be able to win ;-) Usually when I win people think the same thing - they see daemons and the interwebs have told them that daemons are autolose and then if you win it had to have been because of either lucky/unlucky dice or shenanigans.
Seriously though, what did your list look like? I heard Kairos and some crushers, I would like to see the whole thing if you don't mind - you can just link me if it is posted elsewhere.
Congrats again!
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Post by: Relapse
So, out of curiosity, Devil, what are you going to choose for your army?
10001
Post by: AshesNei
WhiteDevil wrote:Ah. I love Gamer gossip.
Please allow me to address your issues chiermd.
I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
3. I rolled for EVERY moral check EVERY time the fateweaver took a wound. I explained exactly how the fateweaver worked at the beginning of my game. I also insisted that if my opponent had any questions at all, at any time, to please ask me. I declared I was taking a morale check every time I suffered a wound. If he forgot my earlier explanation and thought I was taking a normal morale check for my fearless unit, then that is an unfortunate mistake on his part. I went to every length I could to make sure he understood my army.
4. My opponent came back after asking a DIFFERENT judge about the issue, who apparently ruled differently. Different GW judges offering different rulings seems to be an unfortunate occurrence at certain National events I'm told.
So please, before jumping on the bandwagon of "Gamer Gossip", or hoping on the forums looking to bad mouth me, please just address any concerns you have to me personally, and I'd gladly settle them for you.
Have a nice night.
-Gareth-
Ok.
Firstly, Hello everyone! I'm a long-time dakka/warseer lurker but almost never a poster. One of those internet wallflower types I suppose.
The only reason I'm coming out and posting all of a sudden is this: I was that Dark Eldar player Gareth Hunt cheated on round 2.
Yes I know, cheated is a very strong word and should neither be used either lightly or without merit. Let me examine why precisely I feel it is merited.
1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.
It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in
Gareth did none of this.
He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).
He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.
All this of course after I mentioned that I had never played against demons before nor did I know anything about the list. Gareth knew the demon codex, heck, he told me that the wrecking crew gave him a copy of the pre-release codex and he was playtesting it before it even came out.
Also, regarding him getting an affirmative to pull this stuff off via one of the judges? When I found out about how he outright cheated in that game I told the gentleman taking scoring and organizing. He regretted that he could not change the scoring or do anything, but suggested that I inform Gareth that he was wrong and shouldn’t do that in the future.
I did, he told me that, “The black judge told me I could, and they let me do it in the semis”. The gentleman to whom he was referring to is Donovan, whom I asked about this. Donovan seemed incredulous that it was even suggested he had authorized such a blatant rules violation. He also stated that other people had complained about Gareth’s mis-sized bases on his bloodcrushers and that this wasn’t the first complaint.
Now I have to say this. I like the wrecking crew, I partied with them on the following night and played with them thereafter. I fought for first place with Neal Cauley in the GT on Sunday and they’re a great bunch of guys. Gareth’s chicanery does not speak for their group or represent their play-style in the slightest. Neal was an amazing player, but a fair and honest one and I’ve got nothing but good things to say about the rest.
Gareth’s outright cheating in the Ard’ boys finals and then winning the whole shebang leaves a sour taste in the mouths of all honest players that worked hard to get to that tournament however, and I wanted to get that off my chest.
8471
Post by: olympia
@AshesNei,
Gareth already admitted to a "conversion mistake" in a previous tournament when he used smaller bases which, when involving units that need table space to avoid a DS error is an important consideration. In another thread I observed that unless you purchase and memorize every codex you are going to get hosed. It appears that this is what happened to you.
3271
Post by: WhiteDevil
AshesNei wrote:
1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.
It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in
Gareth did none of this.
I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.
AshesNei wrote:He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).
He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.
Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.
AshesNei wrote:Also, regarding him getting an affirmative to pull this stuff off via one of the judges? When I found out about how he outright cheated in that game I told the gentleman taking scoring and organizing. He regretted that he could not change the scoring or do anything, but suggested that I inform Gareth that he was wrong and shouldn’t do that in the future.
I did, he told me that, “The black judge told me I could, and they let me do it in the semis”. The gentleman to whom he was referring to is Donovan, whom I asked about this. Donovan seemed incredulous that it was even suggested he had authorized such a blatant rules violation. He also stated that other people had complained about Gareth’s mis-sized bases on his bloodcrushers and that this wasn’t the first complaint.
That's not quite what I said. I told you again about my previous ruling. To which you responded you asked as well. I asked you which judge, and then told you it was the other. I also said that's the way it was ruled in the semis. If you wanted to discuss it further, I would have been glad to, which hopefully would have avoided all this.
I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."
Also, you should go through and read this thread. The bases have been explained several times.
AshesNei wrote:Gareth’s outright cheating in the Ard’ boys finals and then winning the whole shebang leaves a sour taste in the mouths of all honest players that worked hard to get to that tournament however, and I wanted to get that off my chest.
Everything I did was on the level dude. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. I played a fair and honest game in the manner I thought was correct at the time. Whether I/the judge made a mistake is irrelevant we both did what we thought was correct. Everything was on the level. What is a detriment to the gaming community is people like yourself whom, instead of just talking to the person they have a problem with, and working it out that way, they go and spout lies to whoever will listen.
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.
This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?
4095
Post by: proximity
AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.
This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?
Pretty sure he mentioned earlier that he deepstruck stuff in on turn one, scattered everything - but rolled a large number of hits.
9158
Post by: Hollismason
What were the prizes?
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
proximity wrote:AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, I was confused earlier. I thought the argument centered around if you could deep strike all of your demons the first turn.
This sounds like you deployed 1 HQ (Fateweaver) and 2 troops (Whatever they were) before the game began...THEN started deepstriking the rest of your army turn 1?
Pretty sure he mentioned earlier that he deepstruck stuff in on turn one, scattered everything - but rolled a large number of hits.
Yeah but;
AshesNei wrote:
He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).
The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.
9988
Post by: Budzerker
I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...
8471
Post by: olympia
Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...
The thread should not be locked because you do not like AshesNei's post. There are many many people on dakkadakka who complain about the weaknesses of GW rules in general and problems in tournament settings in particular. This thread is throwing some light--perhaps unwelcome light--on these issues.
9158
Post by: Hollismason
What is the loot.
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Post by: WhiteDevil
AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.
I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...
Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...
I second the motion. Before I become more disenchanted with a gaming community I've been a member of for 13 years...
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
donovan can settle this and anyone else who played him to verify the size base he used.
G
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Post by: Budzerker
olympia wrote:
The thread should not be locked because you do not like AshesNei's post. There are many many people on dakkadakka who complain about the weaknesses of GW rules in general and problems in tournament settings in particular. This thread is throwing some light--perhaps unwelcome light--on these issues.
No, it should be ended because this is going nowhere. And it's not like we don't have plenty of other anti- gw threads. Have any of them ever solved anything? No. And neither will this.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
WhiteDevil wrote:AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.
I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...
Ahh, then if you kept other stuff in reserve anyway...big farking deal. Gratz again on your win.
/Although I said the argument that DOW allows everything turn 1 was plausible, I think the Demon Assault rules over the mission. I can appreciate the question though !
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Post by: WhiteDevil
AgeOfEgos wrote:Although I said the argument that DOW allows everything turn 1 was plausible, I think the Demon Assault rules over the mission. I can appreciate the question though !
I wasn't sure which took priority. Hence why I asked the question that started all this mess...
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Post by: Hollismason
WhiteDevil wrote:AgeOfEgos wrote:The only reason I ask (I have no stake in this), is that an argument that DOW allows you to DS everything turn 1 is at least plausible. Argument that you can deploy demons before the game begins...is entirely something else.
I started nothing on the table. You and I aren't the only one's who think/thought it's plausible...
Budzerker wrote:I say the MODs just lock up this thread. It's point has long passed and has degenerated into a big pile o' crap thanks to AshesNei and his cronies...
I second the motion. Before I become more disenchanted with a gaming community I've been a member of for 13 years...
Congrats, what did you win.
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Post by: chiermd
I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.
No disputes that you can come in on turn 1 from reserves but why do you think that you dont have to seperate them into 2 groups like the codex says? It says At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units. Then you must face the unfathomable judgement of the Gods of Chaos, and nominate which of the two groups you wish to make a 'Daemonic Assault' at the beginning of the battle. Pick one of the two groups and pray to the Dark Gods by rolling a D6. On a 3-6 the Powers of Chaos agree with your choice, but on a 1-2 they choose the other group. The remaining units are held in reserve. I dont understand why you get to ignore this clearly stated rule.
Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.
You can bring your units in on turn 1 via deep strike the issue is how you deployed such a large amount of your army on turn 1 without following the rules stated in codex daemons. Interesting thing about the bases, didnt know that, but it doesnt surprise me.
I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."
I asked Donovan and the other Ard Boy judge about the question about the daemons and neither recalled being asked your question by you and stated that what had happened was incorrect and certainly not in the spirit of the game.
Everything I did was on the level dude. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. I played a fair and honest game in the manner I thought was correct at the time. Whether I/the judge made a mistake is irrelevant we both did what we thought was correct. Everything was on the level. What is a detriment to the gaming community is people like yourself whom, instead of just talking to the person they have a problem with, and working it out that way, they go and spout lies to whoever will listen.
The guy is just pissed that he was taken advantage of when you broke your own rules. The poor guy probably had to take days off of work, fly to Baltimore, get a hotel, and then play thinking that his opponent was being honest. What's he suppose to do what's done is done, but dont pretend the victory was pure. There's no benefit in him lying, but at least he can tell people what happened so it wont happen again. The game is over congrats on your "*victory*"
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Post by: chiermd
Prize was a warhound Titan and 6 Battleforce Boxes of Ravenwing, and something else I think. Oh BTW the criticism was never about the judges I thought that they did an amazing job given there were 2 of them and 50 of us which requires honest players to police themselves. There is no way that they can police that many games. Other than the time at the end which they were not able to control I thought it was an awesome time.
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Post by: Budzerker
Perhaps if the DE player had done what White suggested and worked it out amongst themselves, they could have both gone to the judge.
It's conceivable that Donnovan doesn't remember a question of that "YAY Daemons can ignore their codex and DS turn 1". Because that's not exactly what was asked. Look at how he worded the question. It wasen't exclusively about daemons, but about reserves including daemons.
Perhaps if you guys hope off that dead high horse your beating and lighten up, you'd see that.
What ever happened to people being civil? This all could have been solved by the 2 opponents in question settling it amongst themselves. It didn't have to turn into this slander-fest.
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Post by: olympia
Budzerker wrote:
What ever happened to people being civil?
It seems pretty civil that everyone allows him to use smaller bases on his deepstriking army.
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Post by: Budzerker
olympia wrote:
It seems pretty civil that everyone allows him to use smaller bases on his deepstriking army.
Calling that small thing "civil" and then doing what they are doing now...
That's like saying: "I'll give you this dollar if you let me tell all your family and friends your a child-molester... "
:S
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Post by: sabote
This is the final round of the Ard boyz
While I think that the judges got it wrong.
Not having played a Demon army is not an excuse for letting something like this happen to you. The codex it out. Read up on it like everyone else. At the end of the day there were at least 5 turns. Both players had a chance to win in those 5 turns. "Smaller bases" and an incorrect deployement may have helped some and I use the word may here. But it certainly would not have decided the battle. Personally when I play Demon armies I just put all my army in reserve. I have an Eldar force and having all his stuff in with my mobility allows me alot more latitude to shape the battlefield. With a mobile army like the Dark Eldar I would expect the same would work. I am sure his intent was to fortress up with the crushers/fatweaver and expand but again that can be worked out.
I think it sucks someone feels cheated and another may feel picked on. I applaud both of you for coming on and explaining yourselves. But it is called Ard boyz. Know the armies you are up against before you show up and be prepared for anything.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I was not in Baltimore for the event so i can't give any eye witness account but if White Devil said he used the 60 mm bases I trust him. White Devil played on my Adepticon team this year and there were no issues about the rules during of the four games and we played together twice.
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Post by: WhiteDevil
Green Blow Fly wrote:I was not in Baltimote for the event so i can't give any eye witness account but if White Devil said he used the 60 mm bases I trust him. White Devil played on my Adepticon team this year and there were no issues about the rules during of the four games and we played together twice.
I had the bases. Showed em' to my opponents. Told them why the figs are the way they are and left it completely up to them.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
WhiteDevil wrote:AshesNei wrote:
1. The demon codex specifically states this under demonic assault:
No model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment. Instead, all of the units in the army always start the game in reserve, even in missions that do not normally allow this rule to be used.
It also states that you are supposed to separate out your units into equal groups and roll to determine which group comes in
Gareth did none of this.
I didn't separate them due to the judge ruling that my units could just come on turn one from reserve. I've stated this already.
AshesNei wrote:He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).
He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise.
Again, as per the ruling I thought I could bring in my units from reserve turn 1. Which I explained to you. I also clearly explained the base sizes to you. You told me you didn't care. If I had been on larger bases, I would have been more conservative in my deep striking.
I popped in to this thread as I saw it go to four pages. The more I read the less I understand. You knew your rules and yet you deployed units on the 1st turn and didn't follow the deployment rules from your codex. How is that not strectching the rules when you personally know those rules? Why would you need a ruling when it is so cut and dried. Just play as your codex dictates. Since how will playing by the codex ever be cheating unless a mission specific over-rules it - a mission that follows DOW rules from the BGB would not trump codex. The rules are pretty damn clear.
Seems to me that if we ignore the word "cheating" that game was not played by the rules and that cannot be argued with.
As to those that say close the thread, this seems a totally valid topic that has totally changed since the DE person added some rather pertinent missing details to the argument.
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Post by: Budzerker
fullheadofhair wrote:
I popped in to this thread as I saw it go to four pages. The more I read the less I understand. You knew your rules and yet you deployed units on the 1st turn and didn't follow the deployment rules from your codex. How is that not strectching the rules when you personally know those rules? Why would you need a ruling when it is so cut and dried. Just play as your codex dictates. Since how will playing by the codex ever be cheating unless a mission specific over-rules it - a mission that follows DOW rules from the BGB would not trump codex. The rules are pretty damn clear.
Before someone else posts, for the millionth time dude, there are people out there who don't think it was that cut and dry. What don't you get about that? What do you do when your not sure about a rule? Ask a judge. And that's what was done.
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Post by: AshesNei
WhiteDevil wrote:
That's not quite what I said. I told you again about my previous ruling. To which you responded you asked as well. I asked you which judge, and then told you it was the other. I also said that's the way it was ruled in the semis. If you wanted to discuss it further, I would have been glad to, which hopefully would have avoided all this.
I DID speak to Donovan before the second round. Pretty much my exact words to him were "With armies that usually are held in reserve, such as drop pods, terminators, and daemons, can they be brought in turn one via the dawn of war deployment rules? The reason I ask, is because players (including myself) were doing it in the semi's, and I wanted an official GW ruling". Pretty much his exact words back were: "According to page _ you can bring in your army turn one as per the mission. The mission takes priority."
Also, you should go through and read this thread. The bases have been explained several times.
Then there seems to be some confusion on your part. When I talked to Donovan he said he never told you that you could do that. The gamers on the tables to either side of me brought me to the scoring guys who also had no confusion along the lines of what piece of literature takes authority on this matter, because when they found out what you did they were incensed as well.
When I qualified for the semis I figured it was a fluke. When I qualified for the finals, I had no intention of going, couldn't afford it really. My friends all encouraged me to suck it up and go, and I did. I have no "cronies" and I came to the event by myself and knew no one. This was my first major tournament ever. I had a great time with this second match of the Ard Boys finals being the only exception.
I've said my piece on this and have no reason to lie, I feel that you took advantage of someone who didn't know the rules and that's my bad. I wont let it happen again, picked up the codex as soon as I got home.
Regarding why I didn't take this up with you personally Gareth, when I came to at the tournament after finding out what happened and told you, you shooed me off, told me that you got the ruling from the judge and shrugged, ignored me after that (much like when you started another whole round after I told you not to, when there was 7 minutes left for the game and the judges had already called "stop rolling". You had to get that extra attempt at shaking me off the objectives and turning the game to a massacre). I don't believe that this was all "on the level" as you state.
You took this to a public forum, and being the individual who was the subject of what occurred, I felt it was necessary to offer my perspective. I'm sorry if I started a flamewar and I'm done with the matter.
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Post by: chiermd
Can someone explain to me how dawn of war does this?
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Post by: Gobstomp420
Prize Support: Those prizes were awesome. Was someone complaining about that?
Dudley: “36 presents? Last year I got 37.”
Aunt Petunia: “We’ll got out and buy you two more tomorrow.”
David Strimple
Not quite that. It was just a little more exciting last year. Even people who were out of the running had the chance to win a box of guys or some other relatively small thing. I was on the low side of the event and I feel for those guys who traveled great distance to have there hopes dashed. Not hardly a plea for more loot, just some of it thrown about as booby prizes like it was last year. Harry Potter quotes indeed. 
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Post by: WhiteDevil
AshesNei wrote:
Then there seems to be some confusion on your part. When I talked to Donovan he said he never told you that you could do that. The gamers on the tables to either side of me brought me to the scoring guys who also had no confusion along the lines of what piece of literature takes authority on this matter, because when they found out what you did they were incensed as well.
Either I'm mistaken, your mistaken, or the judge forgot or is mistaken. In any case I have been nothing but honest in this thread and with my intentions during the game.
AshesNei wrote:Regarding why I didn't take this up with you personally Gareth, when I came to at the tournament after finding out what happened and told you, you shooed me off, told me that you got the ruling from the judge and shrugged, ignored me after that (much like when you started another whole round after I told you not to, when there was 7 minutes left for the game and the judges had already called "stop rolling". You had to get that extra attempt at shaking me off the objectives and turning the game to a massacre). I don't believe that this was all "on the level" as you state.
I didn't shoo you off. Sorry you got that impression, as it was not my intention. I would have been happy to talk to the judges with you after it. And as for the round, there were 12 minutes left. I know that because I said as much about 8x while I was playing. Things along the lines of "look we did that in way less that in 12 minutes". You even admitted after I insisted on the round and did my turn that we did indeed have time.
AshesNei wrote:You took this to a public forum, and being the individual who was the subject of what occurred, I felt it was necessary to offer my perspective. I'm sorry if I started a flamewar and I'm done with the matter.
No. I did not. Cheirmd brought this to the public eye. Some friends of mine told me that people were bad mouthing me on the internet, so I went to have a look see.
I'm also done with the matter. See that everyone? Were both done with it. We can all go home now...
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Post by: Chris Gohlinghorst
Gobstomp420 wrote:Prize Support: Those prizes were awesome. Was someone complaining about that?
Dudley: “36 presents? Last year I got 37.”
Aunt Petunia: “We’ll got out and buy you two more tomorrow.”
David Strimple
Not quite that. It was just a little more exciting last year. Even people who were out of the running had the chance to win a box of guys or some other relatively small thing. I was on the low side of the event and I feel for those guys who traveled great distance to have there hopes dashed. Not hardly a plea for more loot, just some of it thrown about as booby prizes like it was last year. Harry Potter quotes indeed.
There were a number of prizes given through-out the course of the 'Ard Boyz finals. These ranged from boxes of the new washes to army figure cases to mega paint sets. Unfortunately, given the PA system, we had the judges ask the individuals who won these prizes to come pick them up in between rounds, rather than announce it (cuz you couldn't of heard it if I tried).
Roadway (shipping company) and the PA system are both in my Book of Grudges for the weekend.
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Post by: biztheclown
Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.
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Post by: proximity
Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.
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Post by: Budzerker
biztheclown wrote:Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.
Scroll back through the posts then. Instead responding to me from like 3 pages ago .
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Post by: fullheadofhair
biztheclown wrote:Sorry Budzerker, that just won't fly. I want to hear an argument, from someone who knows the tournament game, for how it could be argued that this would not be a HUGE game breaking advantage, in a demon army that clearly is not supposed to have that kind of advantage in one third of games. Or a link to a thread here or anywhere else, where the demons get to deploy and ds turn 1 argument gets made and is not immediately shouted down. All signs point to a case of someone playing Judgehammer.
I have to agree with this post I am afraid. Under no circumstances would I allow this to happen against me and if a judge ruled this way I would be calling for a meeting of all of them and ask them to re-read the codex.
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Post by: chiermd
To be fair can someone explain to me how dawn of war rules allow you to deploy daemons differently? I cant figure out how the wording would imply that.
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Post by: Budzerker
chiermd wrote:To be fair can someone explain to me how dawn of war rules allow you to deploy daemons differently? I cant figure out how the wording would imply that.
I believe the reason people are confused is because dawn of war states (or people incorrectly thought) that you can bring in units turn 1 that you are not designating are being held in reserve. Even if this is wrong, the matter was brought to the judges. Who apparently gave 2 different rulings. Did the two persons in question probably word their questions slightly differently (possibly causing more judge confusion)? Probably.
Anyway, they both said they're done, have agreed to disagree, and haven't posted since. That should be good enough.
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Post by: chiermd
I'm fine that he's done. I want to know how the wording is ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. I'm just curious about other people's interpretation and perspective.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
yakface gave a detail explanation as to how the rules for daemon coming in from reserve work as well as how the DoW work. I am sure you can find it here buried amongst all the other posts.
G
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Post by: fullheadofhair
chiermd wrote:I'm fine that he's done. I want to know how the wording is ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. I'm just curious about other people's interpretation and perspective.
Same here. Exactly what is so ambiguous. People keep saying it is but I have yet to see an argument that demonstrates this ambiguity.
p.s pound to a penny, if the question was asked in the context of droppods, terminators and demons I am willing to bet the judge was assuming Chaos SM and lesser demons and not codex demons - haven't played against them for about 6 weeks or so but don't they use normal DS rules except they don't scatter?
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Post by: Kallbrand
So, the judge just forgot that his ruling? That he told you that you could break almost all the rules in the codex? Does anyone think thats what happened?
That kinda leaves it that you, told Ash you got the ruling but didnt and then played it that way. Now thats how you cheat(actually one of the worse ones I have hard of ever during my 15 years of playing).. Too bad it will ofc get caught on when you have so many spectators... YUK :(
And regardless of what Ash sais about WC, if you share the glory you share the shame.. Is this how you guys play it?
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Let's face it. The Daemon player cheated and used the cover and confusion of a possible erroneous judges ruling to hide behind that fact. In the end it is not the dark Elder players responsibility to make sure the Daemon player is playing on the up and up, it is the Daemon players responsibility to make sure he is playing on the up and up.
GW expects it's players to abide by the rules and not look for a possibile loophole in wording when the community at large does not believe there is one. Hide behind ignorance all you want, the man cheated. It wasn't a huge cheat like claiming all your models move 16" a turn, more like always fleeting an extra inch or measuring a little long when it is helpful. Some people call it cheating and some people call it gamemanship.
I can see how it made such an big difference in the course of the game. First you get the entire linchpin to the whole army down right away and with no scatter, then you bring in the most powerful units (crushers) off the icons which were illegally placed to begin with. Nice form. Good win. You can keep the Ork sword, but your punishment will be the picture GW has of you on the website. Goodluck trying to go to a major tournement outside your local area. People will know and they will be watching. We had names and a few pictures at Adepticon in the past of people who had a 'judge' over their shoulders every turn of every game. Welcome to the club.
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Post by: Krootman
Ultramar Custodian wrote:I seem to be missing something, because I don't quite understand the controversy.
Dawn of War scenario doesn't have anything to do with Daemon deployment. Daemons always Deep Strike and can do so on turn 1.
regardless of scenario.
What exactly did the judge say that allowed Gareth to do anything that was out of the ordinary?
Normally you divide your army into 2 groups, and roll a d6, depending on what the roll half of your army will come down first turn at the same time and then you ds the rest in normally starting turn 2. Well the gw judge who (dropped the ball here) said that the ENTIRE daemon army comes down first turn which gave the daemon player a huge advantage.
Now im not saying the daemon player cheated but this is not the first time I have heard gw judges dropping the ball on rules. This is the reason I didn't even attempt to go to the finals. IMO gw needs to remove their current judges and replace them with ones who know the rules or at least put a system in place where a WRONG ruling can be argued so the judges dont make them selves look like fools and the winner of a 3 month long torny is not decided by a judges ruling that is WRONG.
With that said grats to the daemon player, it takes skill to get that far with daemons.
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Post by: Bunker
After lurking this post (and loving every second of it), I have a question:
First, you all wanted to hear Gareth's side of it, or else it wasn't true and was just some guy spreading rumors.
Gareth posted.
Then, you all wanted to hear the DE player's side of it, or else it was just a butthurt opponent trying to make Gareth look bad.
He posted.
NOW, you all want to hear from the judge?
Come on guys, stop giving Gareth outs. Its a little more than obvious by now that he cheated, and on top of that tried to use a judge as a scapegoat. If what was said is true, and he did have a copy of the playtest Daemon Codex, you'd think he would know how his codex worked, in and out, and that this situation wouldn't even pop up for him unless he was specifically looking to abuse the wording
And, just to play devil's advocate...when you get to a level of tournament like the 'Ard Boyz finals, you should expect powergaming, and rules lawyering, and even shady interpretations of wordings. I'm not laying the blame on the DE player, but perhaps if we learn anything from this, it should be that if something sounds fishy to you, call a judge DURING the round, when the problem can be fixed, not after it when the judges' hands are tied?
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Post by: chiermd
It's not about the judges they cant make a wrong call on a rule that was never asked. According to them they said they never made that ruling. I believe the judges they worked hard to run a good tournament 95% of everything else requires us to police ourselves. There were only 2 judges at the tourney for ard boyz and the winner looks quite unique espicially since he had his sunglasses on the entire time while indoors. I read Yakface's posting I still dont see the ambiguity in Dawn of War where it says deploys your WHOLE army via deep strike. Deep strike comes in via reserves. If there was any ambiguitity then you walk them on the board from your table edge, but of course close combat Daemons would get killed by shooty DE. I agree with Bunker you expect power gaming and maybe stretching the rules but definitely not completely ignoring core rules of your army. It's like me saying nope during dawn of war my necrons dont phase out if I go below 25% because it says my whole army can be on the board. What?!
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
here is a line in the sand... Some people want Gareth's head on a stick... Some people are understanding. I know I got the shaft in a local tourney regarding DoW deployment because I did not know the rules as well as I should have. Did my opponent intentionally screw me? No way but I bet he interpreted the rules the way that looked the best to him at the time. I know him well and he would never cheat but we are all human. Of course we have to an acceptable limit or the game would simply be no fun at all. The size of the crusher bases is on question. We know a judge was involved in the ruling. Many of us have been the victim of a bad call by the judge... it happens. So we can move on or get down and roll in the SH*T. I am sure everyone hear has done at least one thing at one time that was questionable. Those screaming for blood are by no means saints. Gareth has publicly stated his name here and I think all the detractors should have the courtesy to do the same... that is if you are for real and have some balls.
G
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Post by: Budzerker
Now your making fun of the dude's sunglasses? Where does it end with you people? Are you seriously getting your kicks flaming people? You guys are worse than stelek...
This is not the first time judges have made controversial rulings. AGAIN, it seems the questions you two asked the judges were slightly different, so it's easy to assume he doesn't remember "OMG you let a daemon player DS turn 1?" when that's not what Garth asked. He asked if reserves like daemons (and other things) can be brought in turn 1 if they are not held back.
And for those of you who haven't even read through the whole thread like you lot (DarthDigger still thinks he didn't scatter...) that just recently posted on this page: He didn't even DS his whole army in the first place. Stop flaming.
There was a GW judge a couple pages back who said he hasn't heard of any of this, from EITHER side. What does that tell you?
I believe he did ask, as he said. I bet if you guys went together to the judges and talked it over it would be fine. But instead you want to tarnish someones name, who (as GBF says) had the balls to give his name.
The GW official himself is in this thread. If he thought some horrible "cheating" as what you idiots keep spouting went on, then he wouldn't be awarding the prizes now would he?
Both Gareth and the DE player have agreed to disagree and stopped posting. When are you people gonna stop? Not only did you beat the dead horse to a pulp, but now your resurrecting it, killing it, and doing it all over again...
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Post by: Mannahnin
proximity wrote:Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.
The Ardboyz is not really representative though, in that it’s a free-to-play (except traveling) tournament series, with substantial prize support, and specifically focused and only scored on pure battles. No sportsmanship is scored. No painting is scored or even required (a friend of mine played a guy who still had mold lines and sprue bits all over his entirely-unpainted army- in the final). The latter factor, combined with the unusually high points level, makes it easier and more likely for players to use armies or units they are less familiar with, which in turn makes it more likely that they will make rules mistakes.
When the barriers to entry are low and the stakes are high (very nice prizes + bragging rights), IMO the environment becomes a little more conducive to disagreements and unpleasantness.
Despite all that, from what I saw, with the exception of the scheduling/third game length problem that was beyond the staff’s control, the event as a whole went very well. I didn’t get to participate in it because I had an unbreakable scheduling conflict the morning the first qualifier started, but I got to the store in the afternoon and saw a fair amount of it. A friend of mine came down from Maine to my local store for the regional too, and I hung out and got to watch some of that. I had two friends in the finals and was flying in for the GT, so I watched some of the finals too. Most of the games seemed to be very cordial and smooth. There were definitely some disagreements, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.
The Baltimore GT this year, despite having no comp scoring (which I prefer) was still a ton of fun. I had five excellent opponents- all really pleasant guys and skilled opponents. The organization, rules, and missions were top notch. I really think the current Community Events Team has their stuff down pretty tight. Any improvements I could suggest (and I will) will be minor tweaks. I’d definitely encourage you to try out one of the bigger US events at some point. Baltimore is a classic since it’s the US HQ, and tends to be the biggest; though if you’re Down Under, Las Vegas is geographically closer and is also very-well attended. Adepticon is possibly the most impressive and acclaimed of the Independent US events. I’ll wager good money that if you were to come over you wouldn’t regret it.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Budzerker wrote:Now your making fun of the dude's sunglasses? Where does it end with you people? Are you seriously getting your kicks flaming people? You guys are worse than stelek...
This is not the first time judges have made controversial rulings. AGAIN, it seems the questions you two asked the judges were slightly different, so it's easy to assume he doesn't remember "OMG you let a daemon player DS turn 1?" when that's not what Garth asked. He asked if reserves like daemons (and other things) can be brought in turn 1 if they are not held back.
And for those of you who haven't even read through the whole thread like you lot (DarthDigger still thinks he didn't scatter...) that just recently posted on this page: He didn't even DS his whole army in the first place. Stop flaming.
There was a GW judge a couple pages back who said he hasn't heard of any of this, from EITHER side. What does that tell you?
I believe he did ask, as he said. I bet if you guys went together to the judges and talked it over it would be fine. But instead you want to tarnish someones name, who (as GBF says) had the balls to give his name.
The GW official himself is in this thread. If he thought some horrible "cheating" as what you idiots keep spouting went on, then he wouldn't be awarding the prizes now would he?
Both Gareth and the DE player have agreed to disagree and stopped posting. When are you people gonna stop? Not only did you beat the dead horse to a pulp, but now your resurrecting it, killing it, and doing it all over again...
Hey Bud we get it. You joined on Monday to defend your friend good job. You don't want to hear any more said about this. You want it to go away. You want us to forget. You don't want to answer Bitz's question and instead ignore it with a backhanded comment. If you are done you can leave this thread now. Stop policing it with your own agenda. I did read all the posts. The crushers didn't scatter because the icons in troop squads were already down. Unless you have something more to say besides "hey everyone shut up' you can ignore this thread and spend more of your 25 posts in your fluffy thread.
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Post by: stonefox
So who was it that said GW should NOT have official tests to become a judge again?
There's a reason why the Magic card game makes you plow through dozens of pages of questions before even giving you a local-level judge badge.
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Post by: Budzerker
DarthDiggler wrote:\Hey Bud we get it. You joined on Monday to defend your friend good job. You don't want to hear any more said about this. You want it to go away. You want us to forget. You don't want to answer Bitz's question and instead ignore it with a backhanded comment. If you are done you can leave this thread now. Stop policing it with your own agenda. I did read all the posts. The crushers didn't scatter because the icons in troop squads were already down. Unless you have something more to say besides "hey everyone shut up' you can ignore this thread and spend more of your 25posts in your fluffy thread.
The Paaaaain......
Perhaps you did read. But you lack reading comprehension. Did they not teach that in your school? What was ACTUALLY said was he started his troops in reserve anyway, not that they were on the board sporting icons. He also said they didn't end up coming in for like 2 turns. When they did, THEN they came off icons that were already on the board.
So now your up on the (dead) high horse your beating. What about your agenda? You gonna embark on a crusade now? Sounds to me you just want to get your kicks by flaming people, and now you've picked on me. Ohhh my poor thread.. it can never survive now that mr diddler has called me out...
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Post by: frgsinwntr
Can we Lock this yet?
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Post by: Blackmoor
proximity wrote:Gee I'm glad I considered traveling to the states and getting a tourney in for all of about 6 seconds. This kind of eDrama I think everyone could live without.
Mannahnin basicly said it all.
The 'Ardboyz is a separate event put on by the trade sales department and has nothing to do with the GTs.
The GTs get nothing but rave reviews. If you were to go to one, you should go to the Las Vegas GT.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Second the locking. The way the guy worded the question is suspect, especially if he plays as well as all of you he would know the two armies he lumped in with his demons functioned completely differently. The other guy should have known the enemy rules and forced a ruling at the table. That's all that can be said. Lock and load this baby.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I would bet $$$ to donuts a lot of the fresh faced new users posting here against Gareth are either one in the same or close friends of the disgruntled DE player. I would love to see a list of the IP addresses.
G
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Post by: DarthDiggler
WhiteDevil wrote:
I'm Gareth, I won the Ard Boyz.
1. Thinking the issue would come up, I asked the judge whether or not my daemons could come in turn 1, as it was dawn of war. He said since dawn of war lets all my units come in except for the ones I choose to hold back in normal reserve. This was how it was ruled in the semi's as well. THIS WAS A JUDGE RULING. Right or wrong, this was how I was told to play it. Besides, I ended up keeping half my army in reserve anyway (almost all my troops and a horror unit that misshaped into reserve anyway).
2. I scattered every single unit that came in 1st turn. What are you talking about? Any units that I did not roll a scatter for came in on subsequent turns off of an icon.
-Gareth-
Hey Bud. He said almost all troops in reserve, that ment some started on the table illegally. He said units came on in subsequent turns off icons. Now look at what the DE player said.
"He started out by deploying his fateweaver, then placed his troops on the table. THEN, after his turn 1 started, he brought all of his blood crushers in. Oh, he left a couple units of bloodletters back in reserve (opting to as he was running out of space to deep strike).
He never separated his units into groups, he started the game with the fateweaver deployed and deep-struck his demons near him to get their re-rollable saves, and to boot it all, his maxed out squads of bloodcrushers were all on the smaller bases, they would have misshaped on deep-strike otherwise. "
This means the crushers came out on turn 1, after troops were deployed with icons around Fateweaver. Bud you make no sense. Keep up the personal attacks though, it is really helping your and youir friends reputation.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
Green Blow Fly wrote:I would bet $$$ to donuts a lot of the fresh faced new users posting here against Gareth are either one in the same or close friends of the disgruntled DE player. I would love to see a list of the IP addresses.
G
I would to seeing as the newest poster is Gareth's best friend Bud who joined Monday. After that one poster is a month old, another is 2 months old and everyone else seems to be years old on this site. Next excuse for cheating please.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
there are several new posters here on both sides of the fence... Don't try to spin it any other way.
G
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Post by: Budzerker
Ahh but here's the clincher. You weren't there diddler. Your just choosing the side that is easiest to flame people with. I'm not the only one defending White, there are people here doing that that don't even know the guy. As for your earlier comment about not closing the thread, there have been 5 requests for it now.
My "friend" isn't posting anymore, neither is the DE player. Why? Because they are done with you lot, my side and yours. When a disagreement between 2 parties is done, and they've both walked off, its over.
But I'm probably just adding fuel to your little fire by inviting you to post in the contradictory now aren't I... I bet you can't resist...
EDIT: I think I'm the only newbie to the site over here. Over half of you lot are newbies. Suspect suspect...
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Post by: Lorek
I think everyone's pretty much made up their mind on the topic, and no "conversation" is going to change opinions at this point. The mudslinging is only going to get worse.
If you'd like to discuss other 'Ardboyz results, please start a new thread.
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