4977
Post by: jp400
Got this off Bell Of lost Souls today, this is a direct copy paste from them!
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Hi guys:
Latest rumbling regarding next year's IG codex:
GENERAL RUMORS
-No more doctrines
-Tanks will be in squads
-Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex
-Chimera and Hellhound might come in one combo boxed set
-Troop squads may be in the pricerange of 200Pts for 45 Guardsmen
-Many new models
MODEL RUMORS (only a sampling)
-Leman Russ multi-variant all plastic kit
-Hellhound updated
-IG Command Squad plastic kit
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Post by: Alpharius
So, 4 point (approx.) Guardsmen?
4977
Post by: jp400
Looks that way!
I personally dont like the whole "Character=new army" idea like in the Sm Codex.
8551
Post by: captain.gordino
Looks like they've been reading dakka.
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Post by: Railguns
Looks like IG are going to easily outnumber even Orks and Tyranids. They'll need it though. The 4 point cost probably isn't exact due to a sargeant or something.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
Damnit. I need to stockpile more of my magic ingredients. All I can say is that rough riders had better still EXIST, even if they're useless.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
This would be SO hot if true. Oh MAN do I want plastic command squads, hellhound/chimera combo kits, and all Leman Russes in one box. That would make me so damn happy.
Plastic Storm Troopers as well would send me over the edge.
For plastic roughriders I would actually poop myself.
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Post by: Savnock
Given a retooled or greatcoat infantry set, a possible new Chimera/Hellhound mix AND a new plastic Russ, I'm guessing that plastic Roughriders are unliekly. Then again, I would have said the same thing about plastic Stormboyz...
443
Post by: skyth
jp400 wrote:-Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex
H.B.M.C. in 3...2...1...
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
One problem with 4 pt IG is space. I've tried infantry hoards and found that I quickly ran out of useful space in my deployment zones for them.
Granted that was 3.5 edition with consolidating into units and such.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
jp400 wrote:-No more doctrines
What a shock!
(/sarcasm)
jp400 wrote:-Tanks will be in squads
But won't be taken in squads because Immobilised = Destroyed.
jp400 wrote:-Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex
*sigh*
My most hated trend of Jervis' Reign continues...
jp400 wrote:-Chimera and Hellhound might come in one combo boxed set
Well... ok...?
jp400 wrote:-Troop squads may be in the pricerange of 200Pts for 45 Guardsmen
But will no doubt pay through the nose for Plasmas, Meltas and Lascannons.
jp400 wrote:-Many new models
Of what?
jp400 wrote:-Leman Russ multi-variant all plastic kit
Depends what variants are actually in there, otherwise I've got 30 Russes, don't need any more.
jp400 wrote:-Hellhound updated
Good idea. Need to be rid of hybrid kits.
jp400 wrote:-IG Command Squad plastic kit
'Bout damned time.
BYE
8696
Post by: thekyle1231
Scottywan82 wrote:This would be SO hot if true. Oh MAN do I want plastic command squads, hellhound/chimera combo kits, and all Leman Russes in one box. That would make me so damn happy.
Plastic Storm Troopers as well would send me over the edge.
For plastic roughriders I would actually poop myself.
QFT 
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Post by: inzeos
Good luck fitting all the IG infantry on the board  Let alone the carnage one unit of close combat will do as they rip through the target packed soft environment!
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I'd love it if the STs or even a new regiment looked more like the new Empire State troops or the Vor... something or anothers. Y'know the Russian Guys. The Other Russian Guys.
Lots of detail, lots of craziness, skulls everywhere, impractical equipment... we already have one more or less practical looking army lets have a flying rodent gak insane one!
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Post by: stonefox
There had better be a 40k equivalent of a powder monkey in one of the new box sets.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
BoLS wrote:
-No more doctrines
-Tanks will be in squads
-Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex
-Chimera and Hellhound might come in one combo boxed set
-Troop squads may be in the pricerange of 200Pts for 45 Guardsmen
-Leman Russ multi-variant all plastic kit
-Hellhound updated
-IG Command Squad plastic kit
No doctrines? OK. It's amost not news.
Basic Russ squadrons have been assumed for quite a while. What might change the army would be Demolisher and Basilisk squadrons.
Special Characters being the new Doctrines? You don't say!
Combined Chimera / Hellhound isn't too hard surprise. But they're really missing a much-needed redesign opportunity with the Hellhound this way.
For basic Guardsmen, without any upgrades, I can see 4+ pts. Make them interesting with Camo / Carapace / whatever, and we're probably back at 6+ pts again.
Combined Demolisher / Russ kit makes good sense and is pretty obvious. Tho I really wish GW does an up-sized mk.2 FW Mars Alpha-styled Russ. Please? Please?
Same with a good FW-styled Artemia Hellhound.
And of course, the plastic command squad is a no-brainer if GW is taking the metal out of the guard range.
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Post by: BloodDeathAssault
sounds rather interesting, were are you getting this most intreging information from, id like 2 know more, hjave you got any other rumours fhanging around
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Post by: Fallen668
Kid_Kyoto wrote:I'd love it if the STs or even a new regiment looked more like the new Empire State troops or the Vor... something or anothers. Y'know the Russian Guys. The Other Russian Guys.
Lots of detail, lots of craziness, skulls everywhere, impractical equipment... we already have one more or less practical looking army lets have a flying rodent gak insane one!
The Neo-Soviets... which made tasty growler snacks, but were never quite filling enough.
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Post by: BrookM
Plastic Rough Riders could be a wave 2 release for all we know. The codex releases always need to be the stuff that's most needed or the most important, like the new Chimera kit, new Russ kit and hopefully a plastic Cadian command squad.
But really now, are these rumours that new?
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Post by: CommissarKhaine
I'm quite curious about the chimera redo (if it's true). I seem to be one of the few peopel who likes the Leman Russ as he is, but the Chimera, and especially the turret, never did it for me.
Though the plastic Valkyrie is the thing I'm really anxious for 
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Post by: His Master's Voice
I just hope the Russ and Chimera get a nice upgrade like the Rhino got. Not much is needed but removing at least some of the rivets from the kit would be good. And changing the turrets. And tracks. And skirts...
Oh, well...
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
But won't be taken in squads because Immobilised = Destroyed.
Only if you move out of coherency with one of the others. Because, y'know, leman russes move so much.
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Post by: Necros
jp400 wrote:-Troop squads may be in the pricerange of 200Pts for 45 Guardsmen
All sounds cool, if this one is true and we're really gonna end up needing a lot more men, I'd like to see them add more to the regular cadian box set and make it 24 or even 28 guys instead of 20... either that or keep that the same but put out a platoon box set where you can get all 45 guys for like $60 maybe that has 2 boxes of cadians plus the new plastic command stuff.
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Post by: aka_mythos
IG really deserve better than this.
GENERAL RUMORS
-No more doctrines Ummm, kinda no brainer
-Tanks will be in squads Yay, our tanks are now like our troop, they die easily
-Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex I guess we don't deserve anything better than a rip off of another book
-Chimera and Hellhound might come in one combo boxed set Gasp, not really a deal
-Troop squads may be in the pricerange of 200Pts for 45 Guardsmen Time to start painting another 100 guard models
-Many new models No, duuuuuuuh. I think we' be very concerned if there weren't
MODEL RUMORS (only a sampling)
-Leman Russ multi-variant all plastic kit Double Gasp, not really a deal
-Hellhound updated I hope they don't explode easily and don't come in squadrons
-IG Command Squad plastic kit Shouldn't we have gotten this a while ago
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Post by: jp400
Some people here seem to be getting there panties all up in a bunch and need a healthy dose of manners. Take it with a grain of salt and move on. Bitching does nothing here.
Anyway.......
@Necros: I agree with you, however Id hate to see the price increase on the box. lol
@: Shuma: True, however the other rumor floating around that I didnt put on here is that LR's might be able to move and shoot all there weapons. (Aka move and fire MBC or all Hull weapons.) If true that would rock out loud in stereo.
@HMV: Yeah the kit does need a upgrade. I love some of the FW turrets and wish they would go that route.
@BrookM: Yes SOME of these are new my friend. Some are old however. Just a updated list is all.
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Post by: whitedragon
ShumaGorath wrote:
But won't be taken in squads because Immobilised = Destroyed.
Only if you move out of coherency with one of the others. Because, y'know, leman russes move so much.
False.
Page 64 of the rulebook
"To represent this, treat all immobilized results as destroyed (wrecked) and all stunned results as shaken."
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Post by: ShumaGorath
aka_mythos wrote:Bawwhammer 40whine
@: Shuma: True, however the other rumor floating around that I didnt put on here is that LR's might be able to move and shoot all there weapons. (Aka move and fire MBC or all Hull weapons.) If true that would rock out loud in stereo.
If that rumor turns out to be true then it would be a pretty good tradeoff.
:edit:
False.
Page 64 of the rulebook
"To represent this, treat all immobilized results as destroyed (wrecked) and all stunned results as shaken."
I just checked my minibook and yeah, looks like all of maine has been playing this one wrong. Well that sucks. It would still be a moderate tradeoff though for the tanks being only a single squadron choice and thus only a single KP.
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Post by: jp400
@Shuma:
Yeah, I dont know why people are complaining about it. I feel that the LR should be able to move and fire everything. Why? Simple really... cause it makes the IG Unique in a small way! What is the fun if every single army is cookie cutter rules wise. Its bad enough armies are loseing everything that makes them fluffy rules wise. Plus the Ig were supposed to have some of the best tanks in the game. That was how they were origionally ment to be with a tradeoff of really bad cheap infantry.
Plus its about damn time that the IG actually become a solid army. They have been so bad for long that only the die hards play them. I remember me and my friend (playing guard) were the only two in a 40 man weekend tourny. The Tourny Organizer wanted to give us both our money back for the weekend before any games were played cause he felt that we wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell of placeing top 3. We didnt win but I got top 15 and my friend top 20ish.
Its this kind of crap that makes me wish and pray that most of these rumors are true.
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Post by: ubermosher
Every time HBMC brings up Immobilized = Destroyed vis a vis vehicle squadrons, I feel compelled to mention that currently Track Guards can mitigate that, and I'm willing to bet that there will be a similar effect if Russes are available in squadrons.
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Post by: jp400
If thats the case and it wasnt negated in some way via codex then track guards will be so worth it.
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Post by: Ratbarf
Let alone the carnage one unit of close combat will do as they rip through the target packed soft environment!
Oh you poor CC bast.ard, you can no longer consolidate into assaults, and that Guard squad you just charged sure as heck ain't gonna last through your assault phase. So your gonna charge kill 40 odd points, then die to 200 lasgun shots, oh your a genius right there....
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Post by: Budzerker
ubermosher wrote:Every time HBMC brings up Immobilized = Destroyed vis a vis vehicle squadrons, I feel compelled to mention that currently Track Guards can mitigate that, and I'm willing to bet that there will be a similar effect if Russes are available in squadrons.
We can only hope.
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Post by: Railguns
Ratbarf wrote:Let alone the carnage one unit of close combat will do as they rip through the target packed soft environment!
Oh you poor CC bast.ard, you can no longer consolidate into assaults, and that Guard squad you just charged sure as heck ain't gonna last through your assault phase. So your gonna charge kill 40 odd points, then die to 200 lasgun shots, oh your a genius right there....
To balance this, lasguns will be S2, and all weapon upgrade costs will be doubled.
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Post by: The Grundel
This is good to see. The thing with the current IG codex is that its too hard to tell the organization! So many different doctrines and so little difference in the models, and a complete lack of a good alternative like heads or weapons, makes it hard to play an IG army and know what i'm up against. He can look at my marnies and see the wargear on the model but "this squad as sharpshoots but this squad doesn't, this is company squad A for squads 1-4 and this is the command squad for my heavy weapons platoons...." it's like "dude your imperial guard tactics of confusion are working flawlessly. I'll just listen to whatever you say."
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Post by: aka_mythos
ShumaGorath wrote:aka_mythos wrote:Bawwhammer 40whine
I don't remember saying that...
Well whenever I said that I was on my way out the door and didn't have any time to write anything but my initial critical impression. I generally try to not let my harsh sentiments get in the way of fun. I prefer smaller more free formed games, games that are more about fun than structured rule sets. So I don't really like the trend these rumors follow. My main problem with the above rumors is this, it follows all of what I percieve as the worst trends of this edition.
+Crowded table tops
+Special Characters defining the army
+Increased scope at the expense of detail
+Pre-constructed Units
+Marginalized Vehicles
If those are the things you want to see, then I am happy that you are happy. The way I see though, GW is moving more and more towards every game being Apocalypse sized just with fewer points and I think that can get old pretty quickly. I enjoyed kill team and patrol games from the previous edition which allowed me the benefits of both Rogue Trader and the then current rules. The direction GW is moving makes those sorts of detail oriented game impossible.
I'm glad when GW does new models especially when they are truly well crafted minatures. However lumping variants into the same boxes while practical do not neccesarily equate to being any sort of deal, it only gives GW justification for upping the price a year from now.
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Post by: Apone
But those sets aren't supposed to be deals. You're buying a Chimera (e.g.) for the price of a Chimera, and getting some other parts for your bits box.
The reason it's better than the current set up is the plastic kit should be easier to build (metal LR Crusader parts anyone?) and you'll get parts you don't need that are nice to have for other stuff (Orks Orks Orks Orks).
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Post by: aka_mythos
I know what you're saying and I probably should have been pickier about my choice of words. We don't know if we'll be getting a chimera for the price of a chimera or if we'll get a chimera for the price of a hellhound. The perception of a deal is that you're getting something you weren't before, for the same cost, but GW always justifies consumer gains with eventual price hikes. The follow up to that is, even if we get a chimera/hellhound combo-kit for the price of a Chimera wouldn't we be better off with a purely Chimera kit for $5-$10 less instead of pieces we may or maynot use?
I agree the plastics are alot easier to assemble and it will be good riddance to metal-plastic hybrid vehicle kits. The time saved on not having to work with those, that is the real deal.
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Post by: Apone
Good points. I was glad to see the price of the LR Crusader went down to the price of a normal LR when it became plastic even though it included the new Redeemer pieces.
I was expecting it to stay the same as the old hybrid kit cost given the extra option pieces you'd get with it.
Guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out on release.
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Post by: aka_mythos
I'm guessing the reason the Crusader/redeemer went down is because they took out the Landraider's lascannon sprue and switched it out with the new sprue, rather than just adding an extra sprue as has been the case with other kits. But then again I haven't gone out and bought my redeemer, yet.
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Post by: Necros
The Grundel wrote:This is good to see. The thing with the current IG codex is that its too hard to tell the organization! So many different doctrines and so little difference in the models, and a complete lack of a good alternative like heads or weapons, makes it hard to play an IG army and know what i'm up against. He can look at my marnies and see the wargear on the model but "this squad as sharpshoots but this squad doesn't, this is company squad A for squads 1-4 and this is the command squad for my heavy weapons platoons...." it's like "dude your imperial guard tactics of confusion are working flawlessly. I'll just listen to whatever you say."
This was a big problem for me at first, I couldn't even remember what my own troops did. Eventually I just started taking doctrines that the whole army could all use or i'd forget stuff. I still forget to drop in my drop troops sometimes
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Post by: aka_mythos
I hear you on that. The current codex is deffinitely too complicated for growing scale of the game.
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
So... nobody but me is excited that you can take nine Leman Russes in one army?
463
Post by: CaptKaruthors
Oh Me likey a lot...as long as they have Track Guards as an option still.
Capt K
Pariah Press wrote: So... nobody but me is excited that you can take nine Leman Russes in one army?
7375
Post by: BrookM
Seeing as track guards are on the accessories sprue I'd say that they are still an option with the new codex, unless they turn it into extra armour somehow.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Who knows maybe in all GWs wisdom they recognize the disadvantage of vehicle squads and decide to make it only half as much of a disadvatage, maybe the track guards will come standard?
7375
Post by: BrookM
Who knows? Smoke and search lights have become standard issue for most imperial vehicles, just look at the marine and Inquisition vehicles. Even the Baneblade comes with those as a standard these days.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
BrookM wrote:Seeing as track guards are on the accessories sprue I'd say that they are still an option with the new codex, unless they turn it into extra armour somehow.
OTOH, Purity Seals are on all the SM sprues, and they aren't a option any longer...
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Post by: BigToof
JohnHwangDD wrote:BrookM wrote:Seeing as track guards are on the accessories sprue I'd say that they are still an option with the new codex, unless they turn it into extra armour somehow.
OTOH, Purity Seals are on all the SM sprues, and they aren't a option any longer...
Yeah, but they sure look purty....
686
Post by: aka_mythos
GW's mind is changed so easily, probably why it takes them as long as it does to make magzine sized codices. Really we never know what to expect till someone's holding a printed copy.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
JohnHwangDD wrote:BrookM wrote:Seeing as track guards are on the accessories sprue I'd say that they are still an option with the new codex, unless they turn it into extra armour somehow.
OTOH, Purity Seals are on all the SM sprues, and they aren't a option any longer...
Wait.. They ever did something? I always thought they were just decoration.
GW's mind is changed so easily, probably why it takes them as long as it does to make magzine sized codices. Really we never know what to expect till someone's holding a printed copy.
The space marine codex is like 150 pages. The old ork codex was like 30. I think their making progress in this regard.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Yes, they are making progress. It fills me warm happy happy good good rainbow feelings...
...but it remains to be seen if they will maintain the trend of bigger thicker books or if it was a way to milk marine players (composing 50% of all GW sales) of a couple more dollars for what is to them only a marginal amount of additional work and will revert to "easier" to manage codices for less profitable armies... or even if GW will complete a full production cycle by providing codices to every supported army before they change editions.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
The eldar and chaos books were pretty fat too. I think we're well away from the old days of wafer thin 10 dollar army supplement books.
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Post by: Railguns
Back in the days of 3rd edition purity seals were a piece of wargear from the marine codex, as far as I remember.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
ShumaGorath wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:BrookM wrote:Seeing as track guards are on the accessories sprue I'd say that they are still an option with the new codex, unless they turn it into extra armour somehow.
OTOH, Purity Seals are on all the SM sprues, and they aren't a option any longer...
Wait.. They ever did something? I always thought they were just decoration.
It used to be that Purity Seals let SM pursue farther. Yeah, you're going "huh, WTF? how does sticking a piece of cloth to my armor make someone run faster?" But that's how it was in the 3E SM Codex. What was weird was how a lot of SM had (still have) Purity Seals molded on their legs. So you never really knew if Purity Seals were purchased as wargear, or modeled as decorations. Thankfully, GW got away from Purity Seals having an in-game effect. Same with the Spikes on CSM... 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Same with the Spikes on CSM...
Same with Legions on CSMs. - - - OR - - - JohnHwangDD wrote:Same with the Spikes on CSM...
Same with Daemons on CSMs. (/obligatory anti-'Chaos' Codex comment) BYE
1099
Post by: Railguns
Spikey bits was one of the more entertaining and characterful upgrades that old Chaos had. I'm sad to see it go.
666
Post by: Necros
I kinda miss "Jones is acting strangely"
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Railguns wrote:Spikey bits was one of the more entertaining and characterful upgrades that old Chaos had. I'm sad to see it go.
You can say that about a lot of things in the current 'Chaos' Codex.
BYE
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Acid blood was a colorful tyranid thing too, except it was impossible to see what had it.
Upgrades kind of have to be non ambiguous to really work.
7375
Post by: BrookM
One thing I am wondering about is whether or not we'll see tougher Guard commanders. Marine commanders all of the sudden get WS6 for being legendary pricks, so maybe we'll get see the HSO with WS5 in the new codex.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Guard Commanders aren't very 'lead from the front' type people. Isn't it better if they're not HTH monsters?
Anyway, BoLS is reporting the new Baneblade kit will have 5 different variants in there. I think we're looking at Shadowsword, Stormblade, Stormsword, the thingy from the Apoc Reload book, and something else.
BYE
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Lead from the front. So long as the front's at the rear.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Well, everything is thrown upside down these days and seeing as HSO's are supposed to be the veterans of a thousand campaigns it would be fitting to give him WS 5 to represent his skill at arms after all that campaigning. Or we could be seeing that commissar lord sporting WS 5 instead.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hey I'll be happy with a Commissar that's worth taking. Let's not get too carried away in the details until then.
BYE
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Post by: aka_mythos
Units, worth taking? I am intrigued by this concept. This is something the IG deserve to get. I'm tired of a codex defined by unexceptional and characterless units. I know someone will say it, "but they're just humans." Most people here will agree there are alot of interesting concepts in the IG background but few get carried over and developed into anything distinguishingly better than cannon fodder.
In an edition of 40k where GW is making everything cheaper (except assault cannons) or more powerful (except Chaplains) they have the opportunity here to make the IG units better if not more interesting. I hope they take it.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
With regard to the Vehicle Squadrons....for what it's worth, this tallies with what I've heard over the months to a point. It was (is?) my understanding that the 3 Leman Russ you get as a 'squadron' simply mean you get three to a slot, and they act independantly.
Consider how the rest of the IG work currently. I buy a Heavy Platoon. I get 3 Squads and 1 Command per slot, all of which then count as seperate units.
Of course, this might change to better stymie Kill Point Haemorrage, so that you need to kill all to get the Kill Point, but that doesn't entirely rule out them still acting as seperate entities.
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Post by: aka_mythos
I think the kill point haemorraging is the biggest thing all IG players are look to resolve and like you say with more units being packed together it will only get worse if not addressed.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Depends entirely on how they count them. I mean, Infantry Platoons I can see counting as a single scoring entity in both mission types. Ergo, you have to mash all 45 of them (assuming the op's bit is referring to 45 for 200 being a non negotiable amount!) to get a kill point, but all 45 can only claim a single objective.
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Post by: aka_mythos
The IG kill point situation has really been discussed to death and its really just upto to GW to resolve it. It will be great let down if they just opt to not address it or end up only half way addressing it.
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Post by: BrookM
I remember hearing a rumour somewhere some time ago that there talks of GW doing a General Sturnn, complete with lightning claws and built-in bolter.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
BrookM wrote:Well, everything is thrown upside down these days and seeing as HSO's are supposed to be the veterans of a thousand campaigns it would be fitting to give him WS 5 to represent his skill at arms after all that campaigning. Or we could be seeing that commissar lord sporting WS 5 instead.
IMO, Guard should stop at WS4 - they're not supposed to be exceptional at HtH. I can see Guard having more Ld to reflect experience, but they're still just humans...
aka_mythos wrote:I'm tired of a codex defined by unexceptional and characterless units. I know someone will say it, "but they're just humans."
But Guard units *should* be basic. That's the point. By definition. Otherwise, the bar gets raised for the entire game, and elite forces look less elite. Guard set the floor for effectiveness.
Now that isn't to say that Guardsmen can't have structures like Platoons to mitigate their ordinariness, Heavy Weapons to kill things, and/or "Doctrines" to address some of their fragility. But the idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe.
After all, if I wanted to play enhanced humans, I can play my Eldar. If I want to play superhuman killing machines, I can play my Marines. But if I want to play basic humans with loads of basic Tanks, then *that* is what Guard is for.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I do agree.
The Guard units should be pretty unremarkable. Remember, they are grunts. There are literally *billions* of others in the Galaxy. Their gear *should* be basic and functional. The special stuff should come from the organisation of the force, they way in interacts with itself. Why should they get Assault Lasguns? Thats not their training, and it's a little advanced. Guardsmen can come from any kind of planet, feral, medieval, right up to future tech. Therefore, there needs to be a unity of equipment. Regimental differences are where it should come in, and dare I say it, should not be optional. For instance, a Regiment raised from a Feral World, to prevent too much culture shock, shouldn't have anything too exotic, but they are likely to be slightyl tastier in HTH. And from a Hive World? Generally being recruited from the Gangs, they should be able to act on initiative, thereby putting less onus on the Chain of Command, perhaps detrimentally. The upside is that they are likely to be *very* familiar with the weapons in their use and so on.
Please, try to stop seeing the IG as a modern army. It's not. It's something of a mix and mash between Napoleonics, WW1 and WW2. IT's less about high speed, tactical incisions against key targets, and more about simply drowning the enemy in a deluge of bodies, blood and blasts!
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Post by: jp400
I highly disagree with both of the last statements. Just because guard are "Just Humans" is the worst excuse ive ever heard on why guard should remain one of the worst armies in the game.
Yes Guard are a Horde army. Nobody is asking for 15 pt guardsmen that are on par statwise with Spaz Marines. Spaz marines are 16 points base, Guard are looking like they will be 4 points base. That means that I should outnumber you at least 4 to 1 if not more on the battlefield. Yay for me! However, this means nothing if they continue to give horrible wargear/weapons for IG. You need to upgrade to bring the army as a whole on par playing wise with everything else so it plays balanced compared to every other army while at the same time makeing the army unique compared to others. Yes that means giveing the army options that other armies dont have. Get used to it.
Are Assault 2 Flashlights really that damn scary and overpowered in your book? "OH no! My Spaz Marines dont have Assault 2 weapons for every troop choice so its unfair!"
Hell I think A Missle Launching tank with that needs no LOS and can ignore cover saves is scary. Do I complain about it? NO! I do my best to kill it asap. "Hey now! You have Bassies that are more powerful!" True, but compare the points cost between the two then come back and complain to me. (85 vs 100+)
"Guardsmen can come from any kind of planet, feral, medieval, right up to future tech. Therefore, there needs to be a unity of equipment." Actually, not so. If this were true then every NATO troop would be armed the exact same way. Yes I just compared it to a real life situation, yes I know this is a game, but this is the only way to make it
clear to some folk out there.
Since Guard come from every walk under the sun thats the exact reason WHY they should have DIFFERENT equipment. Would you really expect a guy on a Death World to be armed and equiped the exact same way as a guy on a Ice World or a guy pulling garrison duty on a orbital platform? Sure there are billions of guard... and I can guarantee that every regament is equiped differently.
"But Guard units *should* be basic. That's the point. By definition. Otherwise, the bar gets raised for the entire game, and elite forces look less elite. Guard set the floor for effectiveness."
So because Spaze Marines need to look good guard should remain crap? Sorry not buying it.
"The idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe."
Disagree. Not only is it workable without changeing the whole game, but it needs to get done. Lasgun Statline has been outdated for years now. It is no longer even on a basic level effective. 20 shots to kill 1 marine is a joke. Do they need to be death ray insta killing lasgun of doom? NO! Just beef them up so that they can actually do something in the game. A crap tastic gun in the hands of a WS3 model doesnt make it better on top of that.
Also what is so wrong with the idea that guard get ONE MODEL with a descent BS or WS? Is it so much to as that our leader is actually good at something other then looking pretty?
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Post by: aka_mythos
A guardsmen should be unremarkable and unexceptional, but I'm talking everything else, everything other than the line guardsmen. Ratlings to Ogryns to storm troopers to tanks those things are not just normal old unremarkable humans. They are abhumans, they are the best humans, they are 40 tons of armor. So just because the core of the army is just "human" doesn't mean units should be void of character and just die easily.
In what should be the average guard army, the average platoon guardsmen composes 90+% of models in the army, so anything not in that 90% should be exceptional to those average guardsmen. That's what I'm saying, its not about the average guard getting more character, its about the above average guard unit.
There is a fixation and mentality among IG players that just because the majority of our army is suppose to be unremarkable the army in total should be as well. Our armies on a whole have character but I don't think its mutually exclusive to say some of our units should as well. Look at the tyranid; a race that probably out numbers human, where every drones a drone every gaunt a gaunt. Yet their army is not 31 wonderful flavors of cannon fodder. I don't think we need to see IG go anywhere near Tyranids, just think it spells out the fact that even amongst unremarkable hordes you can still have character.
I'm really just talking about the little changes we've mentioned in the proposed rules forum over last few months, that go a long way to making units practical. So when I say I want character I just mean purpose driven practicality.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
jp400 wrote:I highly disagree with both of the last statements. Just because guard are "Just Humans" is the worst excuse ive ever heard on why guard should remain one of the worst armies in the game.
'cuse me, but where did either of us ever say that Guard are "one of the the worst armies", or that they should stay that way?
Now if you want to talk about the reality of Guard competitiveness, if you look at the Baltimore GT results, 11 guys brought Guard and on average, finished 82 /147, with a top finisher at 22. Codex-wise, they ranked 9 out of 17. That is NOT a bad showing. It says that the Guard are a mid-tier army with a dated Codex, which is exactly what one would expect to see.
If you look at the overall results, the worst 3 armies in the game (overall and by battle) are:
- Dark Angels
- Tau
- Space Marines (*with* their new Codex)
Poor Dark Angels have a lock on the bottom slot pretty much however you look, but take note that the Guard aren't part of this pile. Even if you want to reduce Guard to a Battle score, they're still better than bottom 3.
jp400 wrote:You need to upgrade to bring the army as a whole on par playing wise with everything else so it plays balanced compared to every other army while at the same time makeing the army unique compared to others. Yes that means giveing the army options that other armies dont have.
We would call those army options "Platoons" and "Ordnance Squadrons", and we believe that they are more than adequate to keep Guard at par.
jp400 wrote:Are Assault 2 Flashlights really that damn scary and overpowered in your book? "
Nope. They're Eldar Lasblasters, however, which makes them un-thematic.
jp400 wrote:Since Guard come from every walk under the sun thats the exact reason WHY they should have DIFFERENT equipment. Would you really expect a guy on a Death World to be armed and equiped the exact same way as a guy on a Ice World
In function as a R24" S3 AP- RF gun? Yes. I already covered this with the gaming table / Lascannon analogy.
jp400 wrote:So because Spaze Marines need to look good guard should remain crap?
Did anybody say that? If so, point it out, please.
jp400 wrote:"The idea that the standard Guardsman would be armed with anything other than the most basic R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire Lasgun simply isn't workable in the 40k game universe."
Disagree. Not only is it workable without changeing the whole game, but it needs to get done. Lasgun Statline has been outdated for years now. It is no longer even on a basic level effective.
It's not supposed to be. The Lasgun itself is free because it's not important. What's important is that it's attached to a W1 model in a unit with a Heavy and a Special. And maybe also a dual-Heavy Transport.
jp400 wrote:Also what is so wrong with the idea that guard get ONE MODEL with a descent BS or WS? Is it so much to as that our leader is actually good at something other then looking pretty?
Because it makes other models less "special"? WS4 BS4 is good, and makes sense as an upper limit of what can be done by an ordinary human. It's what makes WS5+ BS5+ special and superhuman.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.
And as for the Lasgun, make it anything up to AP4, and it will STILL take 20 shots to drop a Space Marine. Without upping it's strength (why?) or significantly raising it's AP (again, why?) it will be exactly the same. The strength of the Guard are the number of shots, and the amount of non-standard kit available, such as Plasma Guns, Flamers and Meltaguns etc.
They are meant to be an army of Grunts backed up by serious metal.
You gibbered about comparing Basilisk to Whirlwind, and the points. Yes, the Baslisk is more expensive. But it's more or less as accurate, and can threaten far more than a Whirlwind. Whirlwind drops it's shot on Marines, hits all 10. On average, it might drop 2. Baslisk? Statisically, rather than 2 casualties, your looking at 2 survivors, or possibly 1, with a very, very good chance of obliterating the lot. And at AP2, that applies to *any* infantry in the game. And I mean *any*. But thats just not good enough is it. No. Tell you what, lets make it 45 points shall we, since the rest of this is just more aimless wishlisting and random point integers being suggested. And whilst we're at it, I quite like the sound of 20 point fully kitted out Leman Russ. You're Guard, you deserve it.
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Post by: skyth
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.
According to the Fluff, that's not true. Different types of lasguns use different types of powerpacks.
And btw, Basilisks are AP 3.
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Post by: Polonius
I think there is a disconnect between "low power level units" and a low power level army. I think IG should have plenty of the first, and that would have them avoid being the latter.
Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.
I think that's the fundamental tension in the IG book design: to what extent do you make units better compared to when you make them cheaper.
As the proud owner of 7000pts of painted IG, i'd be happy with either, but I'd prefer them to be cheap.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Last time I looked, Bassies were AP2. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I'm not. Wouldn't be the first time, thats for sure.
And the fluff does mention that the vast majority of Lasgun patterns have very much interchangable powerpacks.
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Post by: Polonius
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Last time I looked, Bassies were AP2. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I'm not. Wouldn't be the first time, thats for sure.
And the fluff does mention that the vast majority of Lasgun patterns have very much interchangable powerpacks.
Basiliks (or more accuratly the earthshaker cannon) is AP3. The manticore (the four shot missile launcher) is AP2.
Interchangable power packs or not, the lasgun is fine at S3. Somebody has to be worst, and IG are it. Now, with 4pt guardsmen, then the lasgun isn't nearly as bad for how bloody cheap it is.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.
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Post by: Alpharius
H.B.M.C. wrote:Hey I'll be happy with a Commissar that's worth taking. Let's not get too carried away in the details until then.
BYE
Oh!
Please let it be the STORMHAMMER!
I think that's what it is called...
The version with the enormous amount of bolters on it...
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Post by: Polonius
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.
Why? Isn't S3 good enough to be useful in fantasy? And aren't models armed with S3 weapons often able to influence games in ways other than casualties, such as through static combat resolution?
Or is it possible that the games are radically different?
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Post by: jp400
40k and Fantasy are two different games. Why even try to compare the two?
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I just think it would open eyes tactically to just how to get the most out of your troops, rather than just trying to shoehorn in as much AP3 as you can.
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Post by: 99MDeery
i don't see why people have a problem with the lasgun, as far as it goes it still a decent standard weapon, perhaps giving it AP6 may help so at least you can kill something that has a terrible amour save (gaunts come to mind), i personally love using massed volleys of lasgun fire hell 35 guardsmen with 3 heavy bolters and a missile launcher kill captain lysander due to some bad rolling on my opponents part with me getting average wounding rolls in 2 games straight, that was after his unit of termies running with him got blown up by my demolisher,
i think they just need a few tweaks such as the KP structure and then the armies fine, guard is to be honest one of the best codex's GW have produced IMHO, you can do good things with the army but a 1500pt army with a few platoons, some tanks and a few shiny units (say rough riders or stormtroopers, i use 5 with DS and 2 meltas as a suicide tank unit) still will work, hell i've even beaten a lash army with it
i hope GW doesn't mess the army up too much i love it the way it is
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Post by: aka_mythos
JohnHwangDD wrote:'cuse me, but where did either of us ever say that Guard are "one of the the worst armies", or that they should stay that way?
Now if you want to talk about the reality of Guard competitiveness, if you look at the Baltimore GT results, 11 guys brought Guard and on average, finished 82 /147, with a top finisher at 22. Codex-wise, they ranked 9 out of 17. That is NOT a bad showing. It says that the Guard are a mid-tier army with a dated Codex, which is exactly what one would expect to see.
In all fairness most IG players are in general better players than the average player. We've all kinda learned to make due with less or moved on to other armies. So unless you come from the school of thinking its all won entirely by the "book," and by that I mean codex, I think IG players always deserve some extra credit.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Logistics of maintaining a body of Billions of individual soldiers is met by keeping them more or less identically armed. Sure, the exact pattern of Lasgun is likely to vary wildly, but the standard powerpack is a one size fits all.
I thought the fluff made it cleat that it was upto the individual homeworld of the troops to provide and maintaint their gear. That while billions of guardsmen may come from a single planet their equipment will often vary with those guardsmen of other worlds. Thats a significant fluff basis for the Voystroyans. It didn't change things in their case but whose to say that a particular lasgun pattern wouldn't vary so drastically as to have different stats.
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Post by: jp400
Well said Mythos!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.
Ogryns at the same point value as a basic marine? Surely you jest! As much as a couple of the guard units need the point reduction, that is wayyyyy to low of a points value. The chimera seems a little low at 45 also. That puts it in the same area as the new razorback, which in and of itself is a little cheap (and not as well armored with lower carrying capacity).
Why? Isn't S3 good enough to be useful in fantasy? And aren't models armed with S3 weapons often able to influence games in ways other than casualties, such as through static combat resolution?
Or is it possible that the games are radically different?
Lasguns are great at killing unarmored low toughness threats. Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's I repeat.
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
Lasguns are not meant to kill MEQ's
They kill gaunts and orks only a little bit worse than a boter. They aren't meant to shoot at anything with a high armor value. Thats why you have 20 squads each of which have some sort of special weapon.
Special weapons make the guard footsoldiers valuable, not the standard eqipment. The standard equipment is supposed to be crap. It is crap. It's paired up against psychically constructed guns that shoot razordisks, minimissile launchers held by 8 foot tall supermen, weapons that tear you apart at a molecular level, and high yield plasma weapons shot by communist anime stereotypes.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd love to see some 40k players who whinge about S3 play Fantasy. I really would.
"I'd love to see some of these chess players who bitch about queens try playing Go sometime." You can't port unit stats from one game to another, so your snippy little remark is meaningless. As a Guard player who's long ago given up on the idea of playing to win, here's my two cents. The Guard are exactly as powerful as they should be on the whole. The fact that they're boring to play, unrewarding to model and have no efficient units for many essential battlefield roles are all design features of the army. Line Guardsmen with lasguns are supposed to be garbage. Chimeras are supposed to be fragile. Storm Troopers are supposed to be overpriced elite infantry that Space Marines point and laugh at. Within the context of the 40k universe, the Imperial Guard is supposed to be the lowest of the low, a pathetic, underequipped army of endless numbers, thrust into futile wars by careless forces of fate. Their survival relies on using big, ugly guns and tanks to compensate for this, as well as suicidal bravery and lunatic resolve. And the occasional squad of men carrying insanely dangerous plasma weaponry.
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Post by: jp400
ShumaGorath wrote:
Lasguns are great at killing unarmored low toughness threats.
Thank god every other army in play is just that! Now whats this Silly MEQ you speak of? I hardly see that in play at all................. 
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Marines still die to Lasguns if you have enough of them. And, well, spank my ass and call me Shirley, if thats not exactly what IG have! Good lord, imagine that.
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Post by: BrookM
Chimera's will be 55 points, not 45 points and come with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, smoke launchers and search light as a standard if the Imperial Armour 2 FAQ is to be believed.
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Post by: jp400
Well you see Ms. Shirley, Your argument again isnt valid.
"Marines still die to lasguns IF you have enough of them."
Yeah, and I can also tear down a wall useing really small hammers IF I have enough of them...
I think your smart enough to get where this is goin.
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Post by: Polonius
ShumaGorath wrote:
Current Commissars are fine as they are now, they're just far too expensive (I say 20pts but throw in a bolt pistol and carapace armor). Same with stormtroopers, they just need to be 8pts a piece. Even the current ogryns wouldn't be bad at 15pts a piece. Chimeras at 45pts, etc.
Ogryns at the same point value as a basic marine? Surely you jest! As much as a couple of the guard units need the point reduction, that is wayyyyy to low of a points value. The chimera seems a little low at 45 also. That puts it in the same area as the new razorback, which in and of itself is a little cheap (and not as well armored with lower carrying capacity).
This is an example of arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued. Yes, 15pt ogryns might be overpowered. That wasn't the point, the point was that they'd be good at that level, even with the current rules. I guess I should have made clear that those weren't serious suggestions, just proof of concept that you can make anything viable by making it cheap enough.
In fairness though, the basic ogryn at 15pts isn't totally off the charts with the new combat resolution. At 15pts the ogryn compares with a nob as follows: +2 S, +1 W, -2 attacks (with the slugga choppa bonus), no furious charge, no waagh, no open topped transport option, no access to a power weapon/feel no pain/armor/invulnerable save/etc and they can never be a scoring unit! Sure, it's low, but I'd price them closer to 15 than to 25.
As for the chimera, again, I think you could make a compelling argument. Sure, 50-60 is more likely, but it's a fragile tank from the sides with BS3 and it's not fast. It's a aggressive pricing but so is 6pt shoota boys, 40pt razorbacks, 85 pt predator destructor's, etc.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
jp400 wrote:Well you see Ms. Shirley, Your argument again isnt valid.
"Marines still die to lasguns IF you have enough of them."
Yeah, and I can also tear down a wall useing really small hammers IF I have enough of them...
I think your smart enough to get where this is goin.
So you are claiming, by calling me Shirley, that IG don't in fact have a lot of Lasguns at their disposal, yes?
And actually, I could probably take down a wall with a single very small hammer, given enough time. But thankfully, both and I the Guard have various weapons better suited to removing the obstacle of our choice... For example, I'd take my Sledge Hammer to the Wall, and the Guard would blast the Marines with a Battlecannon.
I just don't get why people demand Lasguns become so all killy. The difference twixt AP6 and AP- when you are S3 really is quite negligible. Sure, Gaunts will get their 6+ save, but take it from a Savage Orc Player (6+ Ward all the way!) it's hardly something to be relied upon.
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Post by: aka_mythos
There have been long in depth discussion on pricing Ogryn and Chimeras, needless to say there are alot of opinions.
I think Chimeras deserves a cost down, though I tend to go with price higher than a razorback.
Ogryns really shouldn't be brought down in cost as much as they should be brought up in worth. Make them worth the points they currently cost. That discussion rages on in the proposed rule forum.
The way I always think of it, lasguns are designed to fight the Imperiums greatest threat, itself. Lasguns are really human versus human weapons, in that context its a perfectly good weapon. The rest of the universe is just scary. And you're right they shouldn't kill MEQ's. With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.
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Post by: ubermosher
BrookM wrote:Chimera's will be 55 points, not 45 points and come with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, smoke launchers and search light as a standard if the Imperial Armour 2 FAQ is to be believed.
Nice catch. I'm curious as to what "Mobile Command Vehicle" refers to, and if it will be included in the new IG codex (along with the turret weapon options). Didn't see any rule like it in a brief perusal of IA2.
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Post by: BrookM
Well, the Chimera kit will receive a makeover, so we can assume that it will most likely also feature a plastic autocannon, heavy flamer and twin-linked heavy bolter alongside the Hellhound parts, seeing as how GW now wants to try and get most, if not all upgrades in the kit.
As for the mobile command vehicle, it might be a guard only rule where infantry units can benefit from a command squad inside the Chimera or that the Chimera can somehow relay or maintain a link with command squads. We've mailed FW about this though I doubt I'll get a good reply out of this.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.
Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.
Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!
So play a different army champ.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
You must be the only person here who doesn't 'get' Abba.
BYE
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Post by: jp400
LoL.
Abba nailed my point on the head.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:You must be the only person here who doesn't 'get' Abba.
BYE
Clearly 
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Post by: Railguns
I don't think you "get" Abba so much as he chooses you.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Dancing Queen, Dancing Queen, I CHOOSE YOU!!!
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Post by: aka_mythos
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:aka_mythos wrote:With only 1,000,000 marines and 1,000,000,000,000,000+ humans and the galaxy as large as it is the odds of the average guardsmen seeing and fighting a marine or MEQ are relatively slim.
Unfortunately the guardsmen in your (and anyone else who plays IG's) army are the REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY LUCKY ones that fight marines ALL the time!
I was just pointing out a fluffish reason IG lasguns are not marine killers. I actually end up playing against nids and Orks more than marines. I play ten games against other races for every one game against a marine army.
On lasguns though think of it this way, a lasgun has the equivalent fire power of an assault rifle good for killing other humans but against aliens and other scary stuff you only have to see a movie to see how ineffectual it would be. I'm all for lasguns getting some alterations or adjustments but the idea they should be MEQ killers, in any way other than en masse, is silly and out of character.
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Post by: Boron Delue
I full heartily agree that more special characters is just a waste. The more they have the more broken they become. Have you seen the Special Characters for Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy, that's just sick! Those things can take out almost anything. The Suneater? WTF!? Stregnth 7, with a +2 strength weapon, 7 attacks, 5 or so wounds!? Seriously!? Just keep the doctrines and let US custimize the our own Unites. I mean Fluff wise, the HQ is taking orders from the player so the player must be like, Commander-in-Chief or something so let us customize it.
/rant
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Post by: Alpharius
Any word on if the STORMHAMMER is one of the 5 conversion possibilities in the new plastic multi-Baneblade kit?
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Post by: aka_mythos
No word on the Stormhammer, but the the multi-baneblade as you put it, is a kit for the non-turret variants of the baneblade.
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Post by: Reecius
These IG rumors look great, i am really excited for my favorite army. I actually like the special characters giving the army certain characteristics. the way i see it is better than losing customization in its entirity. I would preer being able to customize things without the need for special characters but oh well, its better than nothing and it does make it easier for people unfamiliar with the army to know what to expect when they see a given model.
also, how do the IG play in this edition? I have not played 40K since 4th and they kicked ass back then. I loved playing my gaurd army, are they still able to hang with most any army or do the new rules make it a lot tougher for them as it seems to have done with other armies?
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Post by: ShumaGorath
They do pretty well outside of killpoints missions. They have lots of small squads so contesting and squatting on objectives is easy for them and they have a considerable amount of heavy weapons and large blast weapons to dislodge enemy objective holders.
Unfortunately they have like three hundred million kill points in an army so they have a hard time in those scenarios.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Guard are awesome in Apocalypse.
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Post by: grizgrin
Why is that, John? I've honestl;y not even had a chance to read the Apoc rules, but what gives the guard such an advantage? My only guess would be that they appear to have more real ranged weaponry than anyone else. But that's just a guess.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
'Cause they can just bring all the good stuff and ignore the useless stuff. Guard allied with Eldar in Apoc is just sick.
But none of this matters as how badly or how well an army performs in Apoc should have no bearing on whether it's a good army in 40K.
BYE
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Post by: Necros
I don't think I've played "regular" 40k since apoc came out
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Post by: Reecius
well, byt the time i am back in the states the nex dex will be out and hopefully the kill point issue will be sorted out. it sounds like the old IG still can win some games.
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Post by: Quintinus
Agamemnon2 wrote:As a Guard player who's long ago given up on the idea of playing to win, here's my two cents. The Guard are exactly as powerful as they should be on the whole. The fact that they're boring to play, unrewarding to model and have no efficient units for many essential battlefield roles are all design features of the army. Line Guardsmen with lasguns are supposed to be garbage. Chimeras are supposed to be fragile. Storm Troopers are supposed to be overpriced elite infantry that Space Marines point and laugh at.
Within the context of the 40k universe, the Imperial Guard is supposed to be the lowest of the low, a pathetic, underequipped army of endless numbers, thrust into futile wars by careless forces of fate. Their survival relies on using big, ugly guns and tanks to compensate for this, as well as suicidal bravery and lunatic resolve. And the occasional squad of men carrying insanely dangerous plasma weaponry.
These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?
Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.
Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.
By the way, technically the Imperial Guard are one of the most powerful forces. The only reason they're the worst in the actual game? Because they've annihilated everything else, and the armies that are classified as enemies are probably the only ones left.
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Post by: aka_mythos
What you're pointing out to Agamemnon2 is really what I try to point out before as the fixation or mentality of some IG players, that somehow they feel their army should suck.
With every edition power creep occurs for every army except the Imperial Guard. Our units just get cheaper and cheaper, because of this mentality that they have to be the "lowest of the low," why not the middle of the low or even the moderately out of place of the low. At the rate we're going, by 7th edition we'll have 2pt guardsmen fielded in armies of 500+ models for standard sized games.
I'm not saying we should be the best, just saying we shouldn't have our army strive to be the worst with every go around.
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Post by: BigToof
I want to see a return of the penal legions, and the explosive collars.
Honestly, I don't think that ANYBODY's small arms fire is effective against MEQs. Really any incremental increases in the firepower of a guardsman is a request for an increase in the effectiveness of the guard against the very races that the lasgun is decent against to begin with.
Frankly I'd like to see small arms become effective again, but that doesn't seem to be likely with the current all or nothing AP system.
8288
Post by: Rated G
Vladsimpaler wrote:These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?
Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.
Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.
I overreacted once. True Story.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
grizgrin wrote:Why is that, John? I've honestl;y not even had a chance to read the Apoc rules, but what gives the guard such an advantage? My only guess would be that they appear to have more real ranged weaponry than anyone else. But that's just a guess.
2 reasons: 1. Ordnance 2. FREE Drop Troops In that order. Guard can bring lots of tasty S8+ AP3- pie for *everyone*, which is always appreciated. So, if Guard aren't hamstrung by stupid FOC limitations. If you have 2+ Bassies, 2+ Russes, *and* 3 Demolishers, you bring them *ALL*. Then Guard can Deep Strike 10 dirt cheap Wounds with a Special Weapon anywhere on the board, which is *also* always appreciated.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yeah, don't count on Drop Troops existing in its current form into the near future John.
BYE
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Also you can be beardy with IG in Apoc and legitimately claim that every infantry unit is actually a Hardened Veteran unit.
2776
Post by: Reecius
yeah, it always makes me laugh when people talk trash on the IG. They have a very powerful list, and who says they are boring to model?!?!?! Show me one army that has more modeling potential? The IG can represent ANY concievable type of army- you have by definition of the fluf limitless options for an IG army-
Plus, if you dont win with them then you just dont know how to use them. I will be the first to say they dont win as much as the absolute top teir armies, but they are just below that when used well.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Reecius wrote:Show me one army that has more modeling potential?
Lost & The Damned.
Oh... wait...
BYE
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Tyranids have probably the widest breadth of modeling capability. They technically don't have to look anything like their codex counterparts and its easily justifiable in the fluff to make them all look like flying squids with full afros.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I want some of those afro-nids.
7116
Post by: Belphegor
BigToof:
Frankly I'd like to see small arms become effective again, but that doesn't seem to be likely with the current all or nothing AP system.
Lasguns when never really effective. Now Autoguns, that where it was at! 32" range was a great thing for the Imperial Army.
Anyhow, overall it's easier to kill models in the current mode of AP.
3+ on 2D6 Terminator saving throws were re-dunculous and deserved the snake-eyes of a edition change.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Uhh...  Autoguns have never had a 32" range. Autoguns in 2nd Ed were the same as Lasguns except they didn't have a Save Mod. Since then (3rd, Bath and Beyond), they've just had the same rules as Autoguns. Maybe they were different back in the days of RT, but since 2nd Ed, no. They're not different, they've either been the same or worse. BYE
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Autoguns were better than Bolters. Pah! 32" range aint nothin' without following fire.
[edit] Cut and paste demons!
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
RT / 2E Shuricats. Hands down the best basic gun.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
George Spiggott wrote:Pah! 32" range aint nothin' without following fire. Autoguns were better than Bolters.
When?
2nd Ed:
Autogun - Short 0-12"/Long 13"-24" (To Hit Short +1/To Hit Long +0) S3 Sv Mod 0
Boltgun - Short 0-12"/Long 13"-24" (To Hit Short +1/To Hit Long +0) S4 Sv Mod -1
3rd Ed-to-Present:
Autogun - R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire
Boltgun - R24 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire
When have they ever been better? Someone got the RT rules on hand to check?
BYE
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Yes, in RT. -1 Strength is a good trade for an extra 8" of range, especially when Space Marines are Toughness 3 with a 4+ save. The Shuriken Catapult had an extra point of save modifier and following fire.
3936
Post by: Pariah Press
Oh for-! (Digs out Rogue Trader book)
He's right. 32" range on that puppy.
7116
Post by: Belphegor
32" FOR THE WIN!
P.S. there was even a couple of Marine models with Autoguns.
Next someone will argue that Tyranid Warriors were never armed with bolters....
the New-new Autogun
R30" S3 AP6, Rapid Fire, +1 point over a Lasgun
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Simply put back then anything went. It'd be interesting to break out Rogue Trader for a game or two using the newer miniatures, you'd need what 20-30 minis.
7116
Post by: Belphegor
Yep. It was great because you could break teams off of squads if they were given specific orders.
i.e. the Missile Launcher and a supporting marine: "Go hold up in that building and fire at enemy vehicles"
. . . I'll have to write up some Tau rules for a couple of my opponents.
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Belphegor wrote:32" FOR THE WIN!
P.S. there was even a couple of Marine models with Autoguns.
Next someone will argue that Tyranid Warriors were never armed with bolters....
Ok, they weren't. RT 'Termagaunts' were though as were Zoats.
The Scout with the Shuriken Carapult is in my Necro 'counts as' Echer gang.
839
Post by: Ork
Dunno how I feel about more models in an IG army. One must take into consideration the amount of time it takes to play a game in a tournament vs how much time is allowed. Seems to make things worse for IG and Orks.
7116
Post by: Belphegor
Ork:
Dunno how I feel about more models in an IG army. One must take into consideration the amount of time it takes to play a game in a tournament vs how much time is allowed. Seems to make things worse for IG and Orks.
Time to start making 40k scale 'epic' movement bases
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Belphegor - people do that. You can even buy them - 5 25mm round bases in rough line.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
John, I think he's implying that the way its going they will become neccesarry to play rather than just a prefered playing aid.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yeah, I was focused more on the making bit.
Never build what you can buy - it nearly always costs less!
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I agree to a point. Most of the movement trays I've seen have been wood, and anyone with the right tools could crank enough out for their army in a short amount of time using really cheap hobby wood or scrap. It also lets you put more thought into how you'd want the models to be arranged.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I've seen magnetic trays as well. But when you factor the cost of tools usually makes it cheaper to buy.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Vladsimpaler wrote:These self-defeatist remarks are pretty disgusting, and people like you are the reason that the Imperial Guard continue to suck, you know that, right?
Instead of actually doing something, you're doing nothing. Guard are fun to model. It's not really that hard. They may not have many efficient units, but the reason for this is that the Guard runs by redundancy, i.e. having several heavy bolters instead of just one.
Yeah, comments like yours make me sick.
How do you figure it's my fault? It's not like GW pays any attention to me or my opinions when they're rewriting the codexes. The attitudes of the player base have no bearing on how GW decides to affect game balance. I play Guard. That's all I can do. The Win/Loss/Draw record in my sig is probably accurate based on my notes taken. The armylist is partially to blame, though most of it is because I intuitively play Guard wrong, i.e. I don't take Russes because the model is ugly, I don't use plasma weapons or Veterans, etc. None of the tournament-effective lists I've read or seen played are appealing to me, most actively discourage taking the elements I like most in the army in favour of efficiency. It could be that the Guard playstyle simply doesn't fit me, which would be a shame because it's the only army I could see myself ever building out of the modelling and painting viewpoint. They're also the only 40k army that has anything I can relate to, the only one whose basic morality isn't repugnant to me.
7209
Post by: Nofasse 'Eadhunta
What about the new 10 Guardsmen box set?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Agamemnon2 wrote:I intuitively play Guard wrong, i.e. I don't take Russes because the model is ugly, I don't use plasma weapons or Veterans, etc.
You know, being hulled in angular plate, the Russ is easily "fixable".
If you go to my website (under 40k / IG), you can see how I converted mine... Maybe they give you some ideas of things that you might try? 
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
JohnHwangDD wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:I intuitively play Guard wrong, i.e. I don't take Russes because the model is ugly, I don't use plasma weapons or Veterans, etc.
You know, being hulled in angular plate, the Russ is easily "fixable". If you go to my website (under 40k / IG), you can see how I converted mine... Maybe they give you some ideas of things that you might try?
A conversion I saw only once and that I'd like to try was one where the entire hull of the tank was elongated by a good 40-50%, it looked rather like the French Char B1, or the British Medium Tanks of the after-WW1 period. I don't know if I could pull it off, though. Here's the sort of thing I've done so far: http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s319/agamemnon667/. All of it very basic, really.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I think I saw that, too. The problem for me is that the tracks are still too narrow. To me, Russes have more of a StuG / Hetzer profile with their narrow tracks.
If/when GW redesigns the Russ with appropriately wide (Land Raider-width) tracks, I'll revisit the armor.
____
Oh, I see you're a big fan of the pre-WW2 style.
Salamander's quite good - at least you pay some notion of not having the tracks throw stuff on the crew all the time.
Is the Mk.IV the Emhar model? It seems small, esp. compared to the infantry.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I wish I could find it again, I only have a vague remembrance of it.
An idea I'd like to try maybe is continuing the track shoes past the outer plate of the track unit. A bit like German Ostketten. The easiest way to get more traction surface without having to redesign the entire track units.
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Post by: aka_mythos
As it is now the tracks really seem too thin to support a vehicle of that sizes weight. The only scifi justification is if it were some how made of materials that were incredibly light... but that doesn't sound all that imperial. A leman russ or any tank with a similar track set would likey sink and get stuck in the mud or whatever other poor terrain its trying to crawl through.
I'm actually surprised no one has come out with a generic scifi tractor wheel set that coincedentally makes for a wider track set when coincedentally fitted with a Leman Russ kit.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@aka: It'd be polishing a turd.
You'd need all new tracks (which wouldn't need wheels at all, because you can't see them).
But doing that reveals that the hull is badly-shaped, so you need a new upper hull.
Then you see the front has a vertical face and a shot trap, so you need a new lower hull. Might as well elongate and reshape the whole thing Mars Alpha-style.
And then the turret looks bad. So you redo that, DKOK Russ-style.
At that point, you can't use the sponsons, because they look stupid.
And all you've kept were the track plates.
So it's a non-starter of a project.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I wonder if they would ever consider remaking the Russ and Chimera kits. I really don't think they would, alas. It's probably not a concern for GW proper, but FW would lose a good percentage of their catalogue overnight.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
The Chimera doesn't really need a rework, so it doesn't affect so much.
The Russ-based kits would only get better.
Besides, look at the new Arkurian Baneblade variants - good stuff!
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I'd be happy if the Chimera sprues could be recut for a better turret with more weapons options. and replace that horrible hull HB while you're at it.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Chimera will receive slimmer side engine sponsons and a reworked, larger turret. The Russ will feature a new angular turret that looks more sci-fi.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Agamemnon2 wrote:I wish I could find it again, I only have a vague remembrance of it.
An idea I'd like to try maybe is continuing the track shoes past the outer plate of the track unit. A bit like German Ostketten. The easiest way to get more traction surface without having to redesign the entire track units.
Heres a relatively easy conversion that updates the look of IG tanks. It's amusing how simple it is to modernize its form.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
That's a nice job of polishing.
Except, that while different, still doesn't address the fundamental problems:
- overall too small (should be near Land Raider size)
- tracks too narrow (again, see the Land Raider)
- gun barrel too large (see FW DKOK Russ)
- insane shot traps into vertical plates everywhere
And the reversal won't work. Recoil forces (or just driving uphill) will tip the tank backwards.
I don't think the Russ can be fixed by anything short of a full redesign from the ground up.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Yeah, but if those are your complaints there are plenty of vehicles that need a total redesign. There isn't really a single realistic human armored vehicle design in existence in the game. Most complaints that I hear (not from you guys, but from friends) is that its just too boxy and ww1 looking. Spinning the hull around and providing a more angular and flush covering for the barrel base accomplishes that fairly well.
Keep in mind, nothing with relatively large sponsons is going to really look realistic.
It could be worse!
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
If you look at the Imperial Tanks of 40k:
Rhino - Mk.1 isn't a horrible rendition of the M113 for it's time, but the current Mk.2 didn't go far enough. I hate this model. ** (2/5)
Land Raider - Mk.1 is just silly, while the current Mk.2 is quite good aside from being missing 1/4" ground clearance. **** (4/5)
Chimera - a solid vehicle, the only faults are the porthole guns (dated, but not unrealistic) and the overwidth side pontoons (easily fixed). Larger turret would be appreciated. Tracks are overly fiddly, and should be redesigned for assembly, along with incorporating proper track guards. I like this model a lot. ***** (5/5)
Leman Russ - I hate this vehicle even more than the Rhino, for the reasons given earlier. It's only acceptable as a raw chassis for Hetzer-type mono-gun carrier. Only a total redesign works here. *
Baneblade - I have one, but find it rather disappointing, due to the insistence on making the tank "big" by going tall, rather than long. I'm doing major redesign work here as well, and hope to finish it in the next few months. Now this isn't a terrible tank by any means, but the FW Mars is clearly better, so it's too bad GW deviated from directly translating FW into plastic like they did with the Vindicator. **** (4/5)
The Grav Tanks are generally better, not having the Rhino and Russ to drag them down.
Eldar Falcon - quite good and has aged nicely. ***** (5/5)
Tau Devilfish - This iust isn't right. The masses don't sit well together, and the curves don't match the armor or infantry. Decent model, but not really properly "Tau". *** (3/3)
Tiny tanks are cute and fun. I've made one, myself, but different. I should get a picture up.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
The falcon isn't really a workable design, its main underside gun pinion has to aim through the frontal wings of the vehicle to hit anything at any kind of angle. It also has a large open glass cockpit, which is just stupid.
As for the rest the Chimera is alright but the only other tank you listed as functional is the land raider, which is just silly. Sponsons as the primary armament of a tank that is otherwise highly streamlined doesn't work too well. It can't effectively aim at anything behind or directly in front of it with its primary weaponry and the low weapon clearance means that it would have a difficult time shooting over small ledges or walls thus making hull down positions essentially useless. It also doesn't help that the fragile sponson mounted weaponry could easily be destroyed if the tank drove too close to a tree or building.
None of the ground vehicles in 40k are realistic. They are designed to be gothic WW1 and WW2 era battletanks with futuristic weaponry sticking out of every corner. They are getting better then they were in this respect though, hopefully we will se a suitable design soon.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
The Falcon has a primary gun turret covering the top half, and the lower gun covering the lower half (to the front). If you consider how many aircraft have fixed in-line guns, an aimable gun is quite an improvment. As for glazed cockpits, F-16 Falcon / A-10 Warthog have glazed cockpits that are even more exposed, and we're OK with those...
As AV14 the Land Raider doesn't need Hull Down. It's the same reason Sv3+ SM don't care about 4+ Cover Saves. And obviusly, those AV14 sponsons would just cut through trees / buildings.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
I think that there's quite a bit of difference between a f-16 and an eldar main battletank, no matter how much it can float. An f-16 can be brought down by a 9 millimeter pistol, it just never gets shot at by one and a 9 mil round wont go that high anyway. A transport tank should be a bit hardier than that!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oh look! The two biggest trol.... nah it's been done.
BYE
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh look! The two biggest trol.... nah it's been done.
BYE
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm disappointed Shummy. While DD might be a blockhead unable to see beyond his own opinion, you, of all people, should've seen the humour in my post.
BYE
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Post by: Pariah Press
What about one of those, er, "helicopter gunships' or whatever they're called. Not heavily-armored, yet they swoop down to the LZ and drop people off and such, right?
Also, remember that the Falcon is protected by holo-fields, which make it very difficult to hit.
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Post by: stonefox
Oh you mean Landspeeder storms? Sorry but just like all the goodies IG used to have, they've been requisitioned by the Marines.
7375
Post by: BrookM
The Imperial Guard has the Vulture and Valkyrie.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
One my personal design favorites is this one: http://www.panzershop.iol.cz/NewPS35C148.jpg. It's about as impractical as the Russ, but unlike it, doesn't violate laws of physics. Both the Leman Russ and British WW1 tanks look to be built on the assumption that you can just bolt enough armor to a chassis not to have to worry about shot traps and deflection.
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Post by: Frazzled
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Eldar Falcon - is the Bernini's David of tanks and has aged nicely. ***** (5/5)
Tau Devilfish - This iust isn't right. The masses don't sit well together, and the curves don't match the armor or infantry. Decent model, but not really properly "Tau". *** (3/3)
Tiny tanks are cute and fun. I've made one, myself, but different. I should get a picture up.
There, fixed your typo.
Fluffwise you're assuming thats glass. Thats transparent wraithbone...
Now I will give that the Valkyrie and Chaos Helltalon are now equally impressive, but for the time the falcon came out, it was pure sweet.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Soooooo.............., anyone got anymore rumors on the IG? I mean, since that's the topic and all. Lord knows I ramble with the best, but if you got insider info I'd sure love to hear it.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Agamemnon2 wrote:One my personal design favorites is this one: http://www.panzershop.iol.cz/NewPS35C148.jpg. It's about as impractical as the Russ, but unlike it, doesn't violate laws of physics. Both the Leman Russ and British WW1 tanks look to be built on the assumption that you can just bolt enough armor to a chassis not to have to worry about shot traps and deflection.
I've seen 40k conversions along these very same lines, because that's where the current 40k design naturally leads.
5534
Post by: dogma
ShumaGorath wrote:I think that there's quite a bit of difference between a f-16 and an eldar main battletank, no matter how much it can float. An f-16 can be brought down by a 9 millimeter pistol, it just never gets shot at by one and a 9 mil round wont go that high anyway. A transport tank should be a bit hardier than that!
F-16 canopies are composed of bullet-proof composites (also referred to as bird-proof). It isn't a huge stretch to imagine that the Eldar have done us a little better in the ensuing 38,000 years.
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Post by: Miguelsan
The Falcon is more like a Hind attack helo than a MBT. It´s not supposed to stand and deliver but rather to make passes over the battlefield taking potshots to anything in LOS. But of course YMMV.
M.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
dogma wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:I think that there's quite a bit of difference between a f-16 and an eldar main battletank, no matter how much it can float. An f-16 can be brought down by a 9 millimeter pistol, it just never gets shot at by one and a 9 mil round wont go that high anyway. A transport tank should be a bit hardier than that!
F-16 canopies are composed of bullet-proof composites (also referred to as bird-proof). It isn't a huge stretch to imagine that the Eldar have done us a little better in the ensuing 38,000 years.
Yeah, but it's still a little bit unreasonable considering the ordinance that is going to be shot at it. If the cockpit isn't vulnerable because of a half inch of some sort of superglass/plastic/wratihbone material, why don't they just make the tank out of it? Since its 38'000 years in the future and the eldar are millions of years older then that you would think that they could just use some really nice cameras or something, instead of requiring the driver to use an open cockpit.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
ShumaGorath wrote:If the cockpit isn't vulnerable because of a half inch of some sort of superglass/plastic/wratihbone material, why don't they just make the tank out of it?
Isn't that the same argument as the "If the black box survives the plane crash, why not make the plane out of that stuff!". I don't think it works that way.
ShumaGorath wrote:Since its 38'000 years in the future and the eldar are millions of years older then that you would think that they could just use some really nice cameras or something, instead of requiring the driver to use an open cockpit.
That did that with the Wave Serpent, and everyone complained it looked like a Tau turret on an Eldar Tank (and they were right).
BYE
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Isn't that the same argument as the "If the black box survives the plane crash, why not make the plane out of that stuff!". I don't think it works that way.
The black box survives because the box itself is needlessly sturdy and the recording eqipment inside is basic and robust enough to survive being in a place crash. Those boxes usually look like melted hunks of tin by the time they're found.
Also it's not the same, the black box is both inside the plane and isn't used to protect anything. That window, other than serving no useful purpose, would logically be a pretty glaring (and not that hard to shoot) hole in the armor of the vehicle.
That did that with the Wave Serpent, and everyone complained it looked like a Tau turret on an Eldar Tank (and they were right).
I don't think it looks like a tau turret. The gun turret looks stupid granted, but thats more because its an asymmetrical green pod with two little bulbous guns poking out of the side for some reason.
5534
Post by: dogma
ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, but it's still a little bit unreasonable considering the ordinance that is going to be shot at it. If the cockpit isn't vulnerable because of a half inch of some sort of superglass/plastic/wratihbone material, why don't they just make the tank out of it? Since its 38'000 years in the future and the eldar are millions of years older then that you would think that they could just use some really nice cameras or something, instead of requiring the driver to use an open cockpit.
If you want to push that logic, then you may as well say that the Eldar should have god-like technology which allows them to annihilate anything that stands in their way. They're millions of years old, so why not?
Part of keeping the game consistent with people's expectations is grounding it in reality. In reality there is a trade-off when designing an armored vehicle. Nominally this is a 3-way confluence of armor, armament, and mobility. The Eldar opted for a bias towards armament and mobility (which is historically in keeping with a small, elite military), so protection is a relatively small concern. Sure, there are vulnerable spots on the Falcon. But it doesn't matter if constant movement and superior battlefield awareness allows the pilot to keep them from being hit.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
ShumaGorath wrote:The black box survives because the box itself is needlessly sturdy and the recording eqipment inside is basic and robust enough to survive being in a place crash. Those boxes usually look like melted hunks of tin by the time they're found.
Yes! But they are found, unlike parts of the place and the passengers who are usually found as well, but also usually found in pieces.
Honestly I agree with you, they should be inside them. The more pressing question in my mind however is why are Citizens Militia flying all their tanks. Why are their no Aspect Tankers?
BYE
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
dogma wrote:If you want to push that logic, then you may as well say that the Eldar should have god-like technology which allows them to annihilate anything that stands in their way. They're millions of years old, so why not?
Ah, ah, ah Dogma. 
We'll have no slipperly slope no limits fallacies here thankyouverymuch.
BYE
5534
Post by: dogma
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ah, ah, ah Dogma.
We'll have no slipperly slope no limits fallacies here thankyouverymuch.
BYE
Wasn't that already Shuma's argument? Essentially: The Falcon is an Eldar tank with an apparent vulnerability, which doesn't make sense because the Eldar shouldn't have vulnerabilities?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well yes, but there's no reason to respond in kind.
BYE
5534
Post by: dogma
H.B.M.C. wrote:Well yes, but there's no reason to respond in kind.
BYE
I don't know, Reductio can be a pretty useful tool.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
The simple explanation for why a Eldar tank can have a giant "glass" dome on the front is a real life explanation. The advantage of having many more clear sight lines for the pilot significantly amplifies the survivability of the craft, by giving him more opportunities to get a complete view of the battlefield. That the advantage of that increased battlefield view out weighs the gain of placing a big slab of armor. This is the rationale for most aircraft.
The Eldar vehicles are meant to move and keep moving. They get gains that increase their survivability due to that fact and those do out weigh the potential +1 armor on the front.
Also if a piece of clear plastic bugs you, paint over it. That clear plastic paints just as easily as anything else and then we don't have to spend a page and a half of a thread on the IG discussing eldar.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
dogma wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ah, ah, ah Dogma.
We'll have no slipperly slope no limits fallacies here thankyouverymuch.
BYE
Wasn't that already Shuma's argument? Essentially: The Falcon is an Eldar tank with an apparent vulnerability, which doesn't make sense because the Eldar shouldn't have vulnerabilities?
Actually my point was that they are one of the most advanced races in the game, as well as being psychic. They shouldn't have such a pointless vulnerability. I can understand prizing mobility and firepower over armor, but given their level of technology it simply isn't necessary to make a glass viewing dome for their vehicle cockpits. Its just bad logic, they don't need godlike technology for a few nice cameras and a nice curved sheet of armor, just some common sense.
But thanks for mischaracterizing my argument. It must make you feel strong .
Also if you want an analogy its like the venerable dreadnauts little exposed helmet. What purpose does it serve other then to be the part that flashes in the boss battle so the hero knows to shoot it?
5534
Post by: dogma
ShumaGorath wrote:
Actually my point was that they are one of the most advanced races in the game, as well as being psychic. They shouldn't have such a pointless vulnerability. I can understand prizing mobility and firepower over armor, but given their level of technology it simply isn't necessary to make a glass viewing dome for their vehicle cockpits. Its just bad logic, they don't need godlike technology for a few nice cameras and a nice curved sheet of armor, just some common sense.
What happens when the cameras get shot? It doesn't solve the vulnerability issue, it just makes the tank itself a bit more complicated while constricting visibility and eliminating a back-up system; that being the pilot's eyes. It isn't a pointless vulnerability. It may not even be a vulnerability at all. Its fictional technology, there is no reason to assume the wind-screen is significantly weaker than the tank's armor.
ShumaGorath wrote:
But thanks for mischaracterizing my argument. It must make you feel strong .
The only other way to characterize your 'argument' would have been as "I don't like the wind screen." Which is a statement of preference, and not an argument at all. I gave you more credit by using Reductio.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Also if you want an analogy its like the venerable dreadnauts little exposed helmet. What purpose does it serve other then to be the part that flashes in the boss battle so the hero knows to shoot it?
What purpose does a dreadnought serve at all? Walking tanks have no purpose in warfare because they are unnecessarily complicated. Regardless, there are always vulnerabilities in any given military platform, the trick is designing the vehicle in such a way as to make those vulnerabilities negligible. The helmet on a Ven. Dread makes sense because the pilot is supposed to be more talented than a normal dread pilot. As such he doesn't need to rely an armor as much as your average super-human warrior entombed in armor.
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Post by: grizgrin
Any new IG info? Beuller? Beuller? Beuller?
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Post by: ShumaGorath
What happens when the cameras get shot?
The same thing that happens when the windscreen gets shot by an antitank weapon presumably. Except the tank doesn't fall out of the sky because its pilot is now dead.
Its fictional technology, there is no reason to assume the wind-screen is significantly weaker than the tank's armor.
I'll make that concession, there is no way to verify that the thin see-through windshield isn't as good as the plate armor covering the rest of the tank.
The helmet on a Ven. Dread makes sense because the pilot is supposed to be more talented than a normal dread pilot. As such he doesn't need to rely an armor as much as your average super-human warrior entombed in armor.
Yeah, but why can't he have the armor that doesn't encumber him at all as well as simply being more seasoned and skilled? It's not exactly easy to dodge lasers no matter how skilled you may be.
The only other way to characterize your 'argument' would have been as "I don't like the wind screen." Which is a statement of preference, and not an argument at all. I gave you more credit by using Reductio.
I don't like the wind screen because it is illogical and unnecessary. I also don't like the little ven dread helmet for the same reason. I don't like it when terminator captains don't wear helmets. The game is unrealistic, I get it. That doesn't mean I can't prefer a bit more "realism" in my space elf float tanks.
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Post by: Railguns
It isn't like Eldar warfare makes any sense to begin with. For a dying race they come up with awfully effective ways to speed up their own extinction.
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Post by: dogma
ShumaGorath wrote:
The same thing that happens when the windscreen gets shot by an antitank weapon presumably. Except the tank doesn't fall out of the sky because its pilot is now dead.
If the tanks gets hit by an anti-tank weapon its dead anyway. The trick is to make the vehicle difficult to hit with weapons that can kill it, and tough enough to withstand impacts from the weapons it can't avoid.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, but why can't he have the armor that doesn't encumber him at all as well as simply being more seasoned and skilled? It's not exactly easy to dodge lasers no matter how skilled you may be.
It isn't a matter of dodging. Its a matter of positioning yourself in such a way that makes you a more difficult target. The more battlefield awareness you have the easier this becomes. Why can't he have both? Presumably some technical limitation.
ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't like the wind screen because it is illogical and unnecessary. I also don't like the little ven dread helmet for the same reason. I don't like it when terminator captains don't wear helmets. The game is unrealistic, I get it. That doesn't mean I can't prefer a bit more "realism" in my space elf float tanks.
The point is that it isn't even illogical, because your using logic which applies to real-world equipment in a setting designed to defy the logic of the real world. Its just preference that you're attempting to pass of as a logical argument. Hence the phraseology of your last sentence.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Shuma: I have a lot of trouble imagining that a Dread (Ven or not) can dodge a Lascannon...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
This thread seems to have run its natural course.
Debating the style versus realism of 40K equipment is best done in the Discussions forum.
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