Me and a friend of mine want to go in and split a DE army to have between us to add another army in the mix, but i hear rumors that they may be on the chopping block and be discontinued. Is that true ? is their any news on a new codex ? If so that stinks, they look like so much fun, let me know whats the word ? (and yes, i already know that bird is the word so spare me)

They are in limbo and according to a very vocal member here on the road to discontinuation. In reality the DE are in works. More or less. GW is doing something with them, don't know what but they are doing something with them.

Once GW's engineers figure out some way to create 10% more shelf space to accomodate DE boxes, they'll be released. I suspect that TARDIS technology might be involved so it'll take a while.

They are on the way as far as we (as a community, not the Royal we!) know.

Rumour has it they have been returned to the planning stage a few times because they just haven't worked. However, sources seem to be suggesting to expect them any time in the next 12-18 months, with the chance of them turning up sooner.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Rumour has it they have been returned to the planning stage a few times because they just haven't worked.

Isn't the the reason they gave for never doing anything producive with the Squats? Not trying to bring up the squat debate again, but perhaps they've just run out of ideas with DE and their current style isn't inkeeping with the aproach GW have at the moment (the reason why Daemonettes put their boobs away).

That's the excuse they give for everything.
No battlewagon for a decade because of "problems with the sprue", this is the same stuff but with "problems with the concept".
Which is bollocks.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Isn't the the reason they gave for never doing anything producive with the Squats? Not trying to bring up the squat debate again, but perhaps they've just run out of ideas with DE and their current style isn't inkeeping with the aproach GW have at the moment (the reason why Daemonettes put their boobs away).

Wasn't there also a problem with there being no "champion" for the squats, leading to not having anyone who would actually write the book or work on the project at all?

stonefox wrote:Once GW's engineers figure out some way to create 10% more shelf space to accomodate DE boxes, they'll be released. I suspect that TARDIS technology might be involved so it'll take a while.

It's easier to use space distortion technology to create more shelf frontage than to reduce the amount of shelving allocated to Space Mariens.

Problem with DE is they have to resculpt the entire range.. not just repackage it.. and it has such a small player base it might not even be worth it

The concept of DE was as silly as Squats, IE no fluff and just a shallow idea of what they are

In this economy why would GW produce an army that 10 people play just on the possibility the gamer geeks with tons of money would buy them? When they could release armies that people ALREADY play knowing they'll sell (IE every army that isn't DE)

Platuan4th wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Isn't the the reason they gave for never doing anything producive with the Squats? Not trying to bring up the squat debate again, but perhaps they've just run out of ideas with DE and their current style isn't inkeeping with the aproach GW have at the moment (the reason why Daemonettes put their boobs away).

Wasn't there also a problem with there being no "champion" for the squats, leading to not having anyone who would actually write the book or work on the project at all?

According to what I have read on the Internets (which must be true) the Squats were considered a bit too silly to be allowed to live. If they had had an internal champion, they might have lived.

The Orks too have become less silly than they used to be.

I never thought the DE were any sillier than CSM as the other spiky faction or Eldar as the other Elfs in Space faction. They are an army that has a distinctive fighting style, and would present an excellent project for GW to remake the entire range of miniatures and do a really tip-top job in plastic.

Despite all the above, DE is perhaps the least popular and smallest selling faction so it would be the easiest to drop. That would allow the studio to devote more resources to a new Spase Mariens chapter, which, let's be frank, the game desperately needs.

Dark Eldar also have a severe case of the studio lacking a feeling for them. Same happened to the Squats, the joke race back then, hence the sudden case of Nids becoming very hungry and eating them all like a really fat fatty at an overstuffed food court for anorexic people. Also contributing to the absence of the DE is the high and mighty Rick priestly, who has according to some sources rejected several redesigns already.

BrookM wrote:Dark Eldar also have a severe case of the studio lacking a feeling for them.

Well the new models are looking very nice indeed I just hope the new ruleset does them justice.

Then again the DE codex wasn't that bad it was the miniatures that let the side down.

Kilkrazy wrote:Despite all the above, DE is perhaps the least popular and smallest selling faction so it would be the easiest to drop. That would allow the studio to devote more resources to a new Spase Mariens chapter, which, let's be frank, the game desperately needs.

I think this is something of a catch-22 for GW, since they pulled the entire line from store shelves to make room for other releases. People are interested in the army every time I pull mine out to play because their play style is so different from most other races and they've never seen the army before(some kids didn't even know the army existed). I know lots of people who would buy the army if it was still on the shelves and they redesigned the warriors.

Having seen how the Fantasy Dark Elf corsairs turned out, I think with new models would make the 40k Dark Eldar very desirable! Heck! I almost thought of making a D.Eldar army from the corsairs!

The squats did have some good fluff. Up until the latter parts of 2nd edition they had their fair share though they were supported more heavily in EPIC.

In a game of space knights, space orcs, space elves, space undead, and space dinosaurs it seems kinda silly to have a problem with space dwarves or evil space elves. The only problem people take it all too seriously and forget to take a look at the setting.

Dark Eldar will get redone and they will be better than before. Squats, we can only dream about the day when GW starts to run dry on imagination and creativity and start revisiting old concepts... hmmm, doesn't seem that far fetched.

Platuan4th wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Despite all the above, DE is perhaps the least popular and smallest selling faction so it would be the easiest to drop. That would allow the studio to devote more resources to a new Spase Mariens chapter, which, let's be frank, the game desperately needs.

I think this is something of a catch-22 for GW, since they pulled the entire line from store shelves to make room for other releases. People are interested in the army every time I pull mine out to play because their play style is so different from most other races and they've never seen the army before(some kids didn't even know the army existed). I know lots of people who would buy the army if it was still on the shelves and they redesigned the warriors.

DE suffer from the opposite of SM. SM get alot of support so more and more people buy it. DE get less and less support so fewer people buy it. Percieved popularity shouldn't be the only basis for whether something gets support by GW because the simple fact is there is a direct and proportional effect on popularity based almost exclusively on the amount of support GW gives a given army or race. GW are taking the correct action by giving the DE support because as soon as their codex comes out there will probably be as many DE armies as there are for any other race. If this relationship were not true nothing new could ever be released and do well. The fact that GW can introduce relatively new races like the Necron or Tau and drive them into become accepted staples shows what they can do with anything really.

Oh they are coming, the question is when. I should think in the next 12 to 18 months. I would LOVE to have a DE army. I hope they rules hold up and the models, based on the trends we are seeing in plastics, should be AWESOME.

DE also suffer from being an ebay army.. Even if they had amazing models their only good unit are Dark Lances, it's a shame you have to take 5-10 DE warriors with them

It's like the old eldar book, 90% of the units are useless but the 3 that are good are REALLY good..

In mother Commorragh dark lances fire you

Da Boss wrote:That's the excuse they give for everything.
No battlewagon for a decade because of "problems with the sprue", this is the same stuff but with "problems with the concept".
Which is bollocks.

This was actually the reasoning behind the 8 year delay in re-releasing the wood elves, and at the end of the day, it was well worth the wait.

Brimstone wrote:

BrookM wrote:Dark Eldar also have a severe case of the studio lacking a feeling for them.

Well the new models are looking very nice indeed I just hope the new ruleset does them justice.

Then again the DE codex wasn't that bad it was the miniatures that let the side down.

Well, that should finally put paid to JohnHwangDD's insistence that the DE are heading for Squatsville...

He's wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, sooooo wrong.

Sing along people.

DE are going down the road of Wood Elves; it's taking a while but they'll get there. They'll get their relaunch some time during the run of 5th edition, otherwise GW wouldn't have dedicated some pages to them along with new art in their rulebook.

GW has been waiting for a good artistic redesign to give them a good feel to base models off of. I think they have come close to it, hence the picture in the new rulebook being a total redesign of raiders and warriors.

Don't make me start a Dark Eldar army by making them cool and pretty! I don't want to start a new army, I just want to finish my existing ones!

Greets
Schepp himself

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:Once GW's engineers figure out some way to create 10% more shelf space to accomodate DE boxes, they'll be released. I suspect that TARDIS technology might be involved so it'll take a while.

It's easier to use space distortion technology to create more shelf frontage than to reduce the amount of shelving allocated to Space Mariens.

Yet people disregard this and complain that it's all because of those "SPAZ MARIENS HURRR". People can be so ignorant sometimes.

There is a big difference between Squats and Dark Eldar however....

You are right, Squats in Epic were kind of cool, what with Leviathins, Landtrains and Cyclops. But in 40k they were just Bikers in Space, which had limited appeal due to being a little bit lame. When GW tried to redesign them, it was to shift it over to the Epic feel. For whatever reasons, this never worked out, and the line was dropped.

Dark Eldar however, have a very definite theme. Piratical Raiders who use the souls of those they capture to prolong their life. They are how the Eldar, all Eldar one assumes, used to be shortly before the Fall. This is a very cool concept, and the reason Dark Elves in Fantasy work so well. As Brimstone says, the rules right now are actually quite tasty. Sure, they aren't easy to use, but once you know what you are doing, they can literally run rings around enemy armies, picking and choosing their fights.

However, as with all new races, the Codex is a little empty when it comes to choices, and the models weren't that great (with a few exceptions, which vary wildly between gamers!) The other trick of course, is to avoid them just becoming Spiky Eldar, in the way many (unfairly in my eyes) accuse Chaos Space Marines of just being Spiky Marines. Ergo, any new units introduced need to be distinctly Eldar, without seeming Craftworld Eldar with Spikes, if that makes sense.

Me, I'm quite looking forward to it. Depending on how the models turn out, between them and 5th Edition, I might just pick up 40k again!

There's nothing better than being told DE suck when you bring them to a tournament, then trouncing everyone at said tournament.

Well from all these replies it seems they are here to stay ! /cheer. One thing i have noticed about GW is that they are really good at marketing an army when they are ready to, by this i mean they can really make something look damn cool. I'm excited to start up a new army when ever they get around to getting a new codex and new models, and how ever limited the good units seem to be at the moment, they still bring a new flavor to the floor IMO (still having not yet played them) For now I'll take advantage of the fact that most people don't play them and get good deals off of ebay.

aka_mythos wrote:
DE suffer from the opposite of SM. SM get alot of support so more and more people buy it. DE get less and less support so fewer people buy it. Percieved popularity shouldn't be the only basis for whether something gets support by GW because the simple fact is there is a direct and proportional effect on popularity based almost exclusively on the amount of support GW gives a given army or race. GW are taking the correct action by giving the DE support because as soon as their codex comes out there will probably be as many DE armies as there are for any other race. If this relationship were not true nothing new could ever be released and do well. The fact that GW can introduce relatively new races like the Necron or Tau and drive them into become accepted staples shows what they can do with anything really.

Thank you! I'm glad to see somebody else who doesn't have a horrifyingly short memory. This happens all the time. Look at Tyranids, for example. In 2nd Edition, their rules sucked, the army lacked versatility (think of the massive Tyranid Ichor IV Campaign failure. They were undeniably inferior.) and the model range was even more horrible than the current DE line. Then 3rd edition came out. Tyranid models got a complete makeover to look awesome and respectable. They were given a powerful, versatile codex which allowed everything to be customized. BAM! A sudden and massive explosion of Tyranid players and fans. Why? cause GW took a leap of faith and said "It's our fault this army isn't popular. If we fix it right, it could become very popular." GW wants to be sure this happens with DE as well. (And I'm very confident it will) They won't re-release them until they're living up to their potential. Which they appear to be in the late stages of.
DE are in the works and will be released probably next year, maybe a bit later. Anybody who says otherwise is deliberately turning a blind eye to what GW has already confirmed. (Usually cause they're jealous and think it should be their favorite SM chapter in the works instead of DE.)

Feel free to speak up if you're one of the vast multitude who always wanted to play DE and are simply waiting for GW to give you a good reason to.

There's nothing better than being told DE suck when you bring them to a tournament, then trouncing everyone at said tournament.

HA! Amen to that. It actually happens every time. The guy across the table goes from looking disdainful and arrogant with his inevitable victory, to looking sickly and on the verge of tears when you table his army by turn 5. The DE play style is more unique and misunderstood than any other army. Unless you can read minds, a good DE player will always be 2 steps ahead of you.

some of the best dark eldar i've seen in recent years was one based off normal eldar models, using dark elf and dark eldar heads on guardian bodies, for basic warriors convering a bunch of models up as incubi and using dark elf witch as wyches. (no change to jet bikes or talos) and he head plans to convert raiders and ravagers out of falcons

Well, DE were my first army. They fit the way I like to play and they will always be my go to for fun. There's nothing like making your first move and ending up at your opponents throat before he's even had his first turn.

I'm sure I've got some time before a re-vamp of the DE hits the shelves. I'll not be buying many of the new models since I have 3k in points already. Then again, who knows.

I dont think people are saying DE suck.. just that they have horrible models, no fluff and a bad codex except for Dark lances and disintegrators

Those items are good, the army however is very uninspired

thy will die

I'm really looking forward to Dark Eldar. After I finish updating my IG with their codex redo, I will be prepairing myself for a darker path, because some armies just don't have enough "kink."

I'm curious to know if they're keeping any of the original models or just chucking them all and completely redoing the full range. From what's been said about what's being worked on conceptually, their bikes and skiffs are all being redone, the warriors are as well. Those are all their plastics leaving just the metal models which are alot more easily tossed out.

One of the more persistent rumors that I'm not sure if I like is that DE will be made into more of a "Chaos Eldar" with a Slaneeshi bent.

Well they essentially are "chaos eldar" except they worship Khaine (who is now basically khorne to them), and slaanesh directly. Its eldar society with strong influences by those two gods.

That rumor really comes from the computer game "Dawn of War: Soul Storm" where the game developers for that did a bit of a slannesh slant. This may or maynot be the case, since they got input from GW design staff but were also given a degree of creative license.

I think going so far as to say they are "chaos eldar" is a bit of a misnomer. While their are parts of their character that embrace aspects of chaos they live a more disconnected relationship from it then say Chaos Marines. At best I'd call them agnostic chaos worshipers, where there is an acknowledgement of the possibility of the supremacy of chaos, but not a direct worship. The dark eldar are not as much chaos worshippers as they are the Aspects of Eldar that share common attributes to chaos.

I wouldn't take anything from any of the dawn of war game as canonical. Great games, but oh god did they have miserable stories.

I agree on Dawn of War. Just saying thats where that rumor kinda came from.

The new cool DE codex and plastic figs is on my "to buy"-list for 2009.

It will be sooo sweet.

The DE are still in limbo, and I still think the DE are going to get Squatted, eventually. That's what the evidence strongly suggests.

Every year, rumors pop up saying that DE are "in progress" and will return as an uber army like the WFB Wood Elves. The latest was that Jes Goodwin was making new minis (*not* the Eldar Jetbike or Juan Diaz' test Haemonculi). None of these rumors offer the slightest shred of proof, so this appears to be more wishful thinking than anything else.

It'd be nice to see whether the GW still cares about the DE, but it sure doesn't seem like it. Pity, really.

I think that Dark Eldar = Chaos Eldar is a bit older than DOW. In the secondedition codex there was a lot of discussion of Chaos worshipping Eldar, and when 3rd came out with DE in the box set, the presumption was that that's what they were.

Dark Eldar will be the must have army of 2010, or possibly 2011...

I would rather have GW take their time and get the concept right than just release a bunch of cruddy models and rules. It's the same thing GW did with Wood Elves and Orks! People b!tched and moaned about both armies for years!!! But the Wood Elves are fantastic and the Orks... WOW! They really rock... my favorite army out there... GW just needed to find the best way to present them and the their rules. Be patient and in the long run you will be rewarded...

Grot Rigger

Grot Rigger wrote:I would rather have GW take their time and get the concept right than just release a bunch of cruddy models and rules.

They've had ten years so far.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The DE are still in limbo, and I still think the DE are going to get Squatted, eventually. That's what the evidence strongly suggests.

Let's see now. Who should I believe? Brimstone or JohnHwangDD? Brimstone or JohnHwangDD? I dunno. I guess I'll just flip a coin.

I think the fantasy Dark Elves give us a sense of what GW can achieve. After almost 10 years these had better be some of the best work they've done.

ShumaGorath wrote:Well they essentially are "chaos eldar" except they worship Khaine (who is now basically khorne to them), and slaanesh directly. Its eldar society with strong influences by those two gods.

DE worshiping Khaine? I have never heard such a thing in all my years of hungrily consuming DE fluff. I think you have them confused with dark elves. DE worshiping Khaine is almost as ridiculous as the notion of DE worshiping Slaanesh, the one being that they despise above all others.

Archonate wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Well they essentially are "chaos eldar" except they worship Khaine (who is now basically khorne to them), and slaanesh directly. Its eldar society with strong influences by those two gods.

DE worshiping Khaine? I have never heard such a thing in all my years of hungrily consuming DE fluff. I think you have them confused with dark elves. DE worshiping Khaine is almost as ridiculous as the notion of DE worshiping Slaanesh, the one being that they despise above all others.

In retrospect I think you're right. I'm mixing the fluff up with the bloody handed one from fantasy. Though they do worship slaanesh and are changed by its influences, whether they would admit it or not. They are pre fall eldar and they are living the lifestyle that created slaanesh. Thousands upon thousands of years later. The same hubris and pride that empowers slaanesh wont let them admit that that is what they are doing with every slave they rape/eat/make fight other things.

Pariah Press wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The DE are still in limbo, and I still think the DE are going to get Squatted, eventually. That's what the evidence strongly suggests.

Let's see now. Who should I believe? Brimstone or JohnHwangDD? Brimstone or JohnHwangDD? I dunno. I guess I'll just flip a coin.

As I've said before, just show us *something* to demonstrate new DE are real...

How about *you* show us a rumor posted by Brimstone that turned out to be false?

Pariah Press wrote:How about *you* show us a rumor posted by Brimstone that turned out to be false?

He stated that the DA FAQ would allow new SM equipment, even after Phil Kelly blatantly told LAGD attendees they wouldn't.

Platuan4th wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:How about *you* show us a rumor posted by Brimstone that turned out to be false?

He stated that the DA FAQ would allow new SM equipment, even after Phil Kelly blatantly told LAGD attendees they wouldn't.

But the DA FAQ does allow you to use the new SM equipment, with opponent's permission of course.

Thats such a cop out.. With your opponents permission you could give DE all space marine stats yet keep weapon options.. With your opponents permission you could reduce the cost of a baneblade down to 20 points.. with the permission of your opponent you could sleep with their wife

Wow GW is telling us we can do something if we both agree? Thanks for putting that in a FAQ!

To be fair, there's been some false alarms with DE in the past. The moves that have been made seem to make it likely that GW is at least thinking about dropping the entire line. They won't Squat them, of course, but they could end up as 40k's Chaos Dwarfs: a list and some OOP models.

On the other hand, there was the statement that all codexes will be supported. Anybody want to bet their life on a GW promise?

Codex: Orks shows what a smartly written book can do for an army. Throw in some non-fugly minatures and it's clear that people are willing to jump on the Xenos bandwagon. Everybody always forgets that DE were fairly common in the late 90's and early 2000's. In addition, the models in 1998 weren't amazing, but compared to many of the options they were actually an improvement. It wasn't until 4th edition killed the old gun boat list and the models went from "new and meh" to "middle aged and increasingly ugly" that interest began to dwindle. With no new model support or rules, the list sank further and further into the dread realm of having about a half a dozen good units.

In the modern game, a fast mechanized army with great shooting and decent assault based around troops is going to be a success! Add in models that look more like the art in the DE book than like sculpting dollies with spikey bits attached and people will build the army.

The DE have some interesting fluff aspects that can be played up. Introduce different cabals, show the inner fighting, give the player some pathos. Discuss the Machiavellian politics of Commoragh. Emphasis their tragic depravity: the need to destroy to avoid destruction. The best DE fluff bit didn't appear in the codex, it's the story Vect tells the prisoner. Amazing stuff. I can't be the only person that wants to hear some Archon describe the first time he heard a Tau try to explain the "Greater good" to him. That would be amazingly dark and funny.

Unlike squats, which were basically T4 IG with bikes and guns (of course IG had those too...) DE have strong bit of both fluff and gameplay staked out.

Pariah Press wrote:How about *you* show us a rumor posted by Brimstone that turned out to be false?

FFS I'm not infallible I do get things wrong, in this case I'm not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I've said before, just show us *something* to demonstrate new DE are real...

A comprehensive set of model releases both in plastic and metal including new units?

As for showing you, well I can't do that yet.

Can you tell us when you can

Brimstone wrote:FFS I'm not infallible I do get things wrong, in this case I'm not.

Sorry, man. I wasn't trying to put on the spot (or on a pedestal). I was just annoyed by Mr. Hwang's unreasonable demands.

Pariah Press wrote:

Brimstone wrote:FFS I'm not infallible I do get things wrong, in this case I'm not.

Sorry, man. I wasn't trying to put on the spot (or on a pedestal). I was just annoyed by Mr. Hwang's unreasonable demands.

No worries

I just don't want people taking my word as gospel.

Ghaz wrote:Can you tell us when you can

Well no direct info until the person/people who provided it gives me direct permission to do so, that's the way I work.

Until then I can hint, direct and make broad statements.

I can say that the model range both plastic and metal and in very good hands.

Pariah Press wrote:How about *you* show us a rumor posted by Brimstone that turned out to be false?

I don't need to. To date, every time I've said there won't be new Dark Eldar, it's turned out to be true. Now if someone would just *show* something, that would be awesome.

But getting wound up over nothing but a whisper? No thanks. Just show me.
____

And as for being "unreasonable", I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all by asking for "something (anything). That's not much at all.

After all the false alarms, "trust me" doesn't hold any water.

Polonius wrote:They won't Squat them, of course, but they could end up as 40k's Chaos Dwarfs: a list and some OOP models.

You are aware that the Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War have both been effectively "Squatted", right?

Neither army is even listed on the GW website.

Neither list has an Army Book, so neither army is eligible for play at official GW events like GTs.

Anyway, for those not awash in fantasy, again here are some salient points regarding the Dark Eldar:

Phil Kelly confirmed at the LAGD that he was currently writing the DE codex.

Jes Goodwin confirmed at the last LAGD that he was currently working on the DE models.

GW does not tend to show off miniatures for releases until they are 3 months away so just because they haven't shown anything doesn't mean that work isn't rapidly progressing.

Reliable people who tend to get to see things early claim to have seen the new DE models (Brimstone, Moloch, and in this particular case I'll include myself).

There was at least one art tidbit that slipped out, in the form of the new splinter rifle in the last batch of CAD stuff that was shown around the events.

The design changes shown in the 5th edition rulebook for the Dark Eldar may possibly-perhaps match these possibly-perhaps new DE models.

In short, DE are not going anywhere.

ShumaGorath wrote:
In retrospect I think you're right. I'm mixing the fluff up with the bloody handed one from fantasy. Though they do worship slaanesh and are changed by its influences, whether they would admit it or not. They are pre fall eldar and they are living the lifestyle that created slaanesh. Thousands upon thousands of years later. The same hubris and pride that empowers slaanesh wont let them admit that that is what they are doing with every slave they rape/eat/make fight other things.

I'm gonna draw a parallel for you:
Let's say that the DE collectively work at a bank/grocery store/GW outlet, whatever. Doesn't matter. And Slaanesh barges in brandishing a shotgun. He holds the shotgun to the Dark Eldars' collective head and says "Give me the goods, or I'll take your life."

Do the DE hand over the goods because they have a gun to their head and they want to survive?

Or do the DE hand over the goods because they think Slaanesh is such a fantastic guy?

I think I see your point. You're saying it's irrelevant because the result is the same. They're giving to Slaanesh.
My point is that hatred can never equate or coexist with worship. The two feelings are opposite. They live now like they did before the fall because they have to feed tortured souls Slaanesh or he will start sucking up their souls. They have to be evil to survive. The fact that they are enslaved in such a way is a humiliating outrage. They hate Slaanesh.

yakface wrote:Anyway, for those not awash in fantasy, again here are some salient points regarding the Dark Eldar:

Phil Kelly confirmed at the LAGD that he was currently writing the DE codex.

Jes Goodwin confirmed at the last LAGD that he was currently working on the DE models.

GW does not tend to show off miniatures for releases until they are 3 months away so just because they haven't shown anything doesn't mean that work isn't rapidly progressing.

Reliable people who tend to get to see things early claim to have seen the new DE models (Brimstone, Moloch, and in this particular case I'll include myself).

There was at least one art tidbit that slipped out, in the form of the new splinter rifle in the last batch of CAD stuff that was shown around the events.

The design changes shown in the 5th edition rulebook for the Dark Eldar may possibly-perhaps match these possibly-perhaps new DE models.

But this is all trumped if John *wills* DE out of existence, you realize. He has a power ring and can make stuff like that happen.

Archonate wrote:I think I see your point. You're saying it's irrelevant because the result is the same. They're giving to Slaanesh.
My point is that hatred can never equate or coexist with worship. The two feelings are opposite. They live now like they did before the fall because they have to feed tortured souls Slaanesh or he will start sucking up their souls. They have to be evil to survive. The fact that they are enslaved in such a way is a humiliating outrage. They hate Slaanesh.

I agree with all of this, but I think that just shows the shortcomings of their background (such as it is). It shouldn't take 100 words to describe their motivations. They need to give them a better "hook".

I agree that they should have a hook, but the complexity is also whats interesting. So call them Chaos Eldar pirate, gladiator, slavers for simplicity but the other stuff is also important, if not more so.

I really hope we see more versatility in the Raider kit. The concept was very much pirate ship meets Jabba' palace barge, both convey to me a sense that these would be pretty personalized for the archon or even just the warriors that use them.

gorgon wrote:But this is all trumped if John *wills* DE out of existence, you realize. He has a power ring and can make stuff like that happen.

Actually, if I had a magic power ring that controlled what rulesets GW published, you can bet your bottom dollar that nuking DE would be the absolute *last* thing I'd even consider doing.

I'm an exceedingly selfish git, so my very first thing would be to force GW to publish a brand new, totally broken WFB Dogs of War Army Book. I'm talking brutal levels of beardiness, because that book is going to have to last for at least 2 editions spanning at least a decade, so it needs to be rules-nerf-proof.

Then, I'd take care of my Chaos Dwarf buddy who got me started into WFB in the first place. He's a great guy who read the writing on the wall for his CD before 2000, so I think he deserves a bit of redemption.

Finally, I'd push for Necrons so that playing them is less of a grind and their opponents (and players) can understand WTH is going on.

Beyond that, I really don't care so much.

How about bringing back squats, but messing with people for fun, and only have chaos squats? Where ever they were hanging out was never eaten by a hive fleet, as far as I know.

I'm sure with DE we'll see some good new stuff. Chances are GW will overdo it in their zeal to sell the DE, I'm almost bracing in advance of the cries of cheese that will probably come.

Demiurg/Squats? Actually, I would totally be up for that as an Elite entry in the new Guard Codex:

IG Elites:
- Beastmen Assault Squad (Fleet S4 T3 W1 A2+)
- Ogryns Heavy Assault Squad (Fleet S6 T5 W3 A4+)
- Ratling Scouts (BS4 S2 T2)
- Squat Warriors (Stubborn BS4+ S3 T4 Sv4+)

Rule-wise:
- Beastmen are Furious with dual Rending CCWs (no ranged attack).
- Ogryns are just cheap and huge
- Ratlings have Sniper Rifles and can Spot as Forward Observers providing BS4 LOS for an Barrage unit.
- Squats can attach Squat Artillery (Mole Mortars, etc.), upgrade to Exo-Armor, or ride Trikes (pick one).

*That* is what I would do for Squats, Guard, and Abhumans in general.

I like the Dark Eldar, generally. They just need to make them distinctively different from Eldar. Not Just Chaos Eldar.


I like the idea that give hold to everything that caused the fall of the eldar.

I know this is terrible but I really view Dark Eldar and Eldar as Romulans and Vulcans in Star Trek.

One is unemotional the other embraces it.

When you think about it now it does seem silly GW didn't just bump the Squats over into IG all those years ago. They were rather similar and could have just been another Abhuman entry.

Maybe GW will see it and add them to the Codex.

Hahahahaha!!!

As if GW would ever pay attention to a random Dakka suggestion.

Or deign to do anything for Squats.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Demiurg/Squats? Actually, I would totally be up for that as an Elite entry in the new Guard Codex:

IG Elites:
- Beastmen Assault Squad (Fleet S4 T3 W1 A2+)
- Ogryns Heavy Assault Squad (Fleet S6 T5 W3 A4+)
- Ratling Scouts (BS4 S2 T2)
- Squat Warriors (Stubborn BS4+ S3 T4 Sv4+)

Rule-wise:
- Beastmen are Furious with dual Rending CCWs (no ranged attack).
- Ogryns are just cheap and huge
- Ratlings have Sniper Rifles and can Spot as Forward Observers providing BS4 LOS for an Barrage unit.
- Squats can attach Squat Artillery (Mole Mortars, etc.), upgrade to Exo-Armor, or ride Trikes (pick one).

In general, I like it, though it'd leave the question "What about Storm Troopers?", but those four entries would easily cover all the bases that IG Elites should be all about. As it is, I'm going to see about getting some to use as Krieg Engineers.

Oh, Storms should be Troops, just like in WH / DH.

aka_mythos wrote:Chances are GW will overdo it in their zeal to sell the DE, I'm almost bracing in advance of the cries of cheese that will probably come.

From the hearsay floating around all the forums, I gather that this is entirely possible. The craziest rumor I heard was the possibility that a Raider could fly in, unit disembarks, attacks, embarks again and flies away, all in 1 turn. Not holding my breath for that one...

For those interested, "The Torturer's Tale" a short story by Gav Thorpe is by far the best source of Dark Eldar background. You can find it here courtesy of the Wayback Machine. It does a great deal to clarify the dark eldar relationship with Slaanesh. I do believe its been implied that Chaos Eldar could exist, left behind on the so called "Crone Worlds" in the Eye of Terror. But if so they are definitely distinct from the Dark Eldar.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The DE are still in limbo, and I still think the DE are going to get Squatted, eventually. That's what the evidence strongly suggests.

Actually the evidence suggests the exact opposite of what you just posted.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

No, the *hearsay* (i.e. rumor and speculation) suggests the exact opposite.

The actual *evidence* (e.g. photographs, documents), or lack thereof, continues to support what I posted.

All I ask is that someone provide some actual evidence, not another round of "trust me"...

Well the closest thing to "evidence" by your definition is just the newer art work done for this edition. It shows that GW cares enough about DE to spend money on them. Beyond that its alot of strong word of mouth from people who speak with the design studio from time to time.

Wait, so does that mean that Space Wolves and Imp Guard and Necrons are destined to be "Squatted" as I've not seen anything new for them for awhile now?

@Aka: the DE got a minimalist spread compared to IG and Eldar. I see it only as recognition that their 3E Codex remains valid in 5E, rather than a harbinger of something new in the works. That is, it's no more significant than the minor mentions of Solland, Ind, or Cathay in the WFB7 Rulebook.


@Aduro:
The key difference is that DE repeatedly have claims that something is coming, but *nothing* ever arrives. Heck, they didn't even warrant a single Datasheet in Apocalypse Reloaded. So I can no longer give the DE the benefit of the doubt here.

Guard received 3E and 4E Codices, and are on the schedule for a 5E Codex in 2009. Model-wise Guard got a nearly continuous stream of FW stuff leading up to the plastic Baneblade, along with loads of Apocalypse deals. When FW ran out of things to do with the Chimera and Russ, they created the Malcador out of thin air just to keep selling stuff. Plus the new Hades Drill and Gorgon. Now we're starting to see Arkurian Baneblade-based stuff. Since the Dark Eldar were released, GW redid the Cadians in plastic, along with the Armageddon, Elysian, Vostroyan, Tanith, and DKOK ranges of models. Based on the sheer volume of stuff that comes out that continues to be Guard-related, I say they're in no danger of being Squatted.

Necrons got some Apocalypse attention with a few Datasheets. So there's something real there.

Wolves? I don't know. Wolves haven't gotten anything lately, aside from a single Apoc Datasheet. But they're obviously "due" by inference from everything else GW has done. When, nobody can say.

But Dark Eldar, what did I miss?

We're lucky they did this to the squats so long ago. The term "squatted" just works so well.

Brimstone wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Can you tell us when you can

Well no direct info until the person/people who provided it gives me direct permission to do so, that's the way I work.

Until then I can hint, direct and make broad statements.

I can say that the model range both plastic and metal and in very good hands.

Well, my point was that they'll most likely let you talk about them once they are 3 to 6 months away from their release date. So if you could tell us when you could talk about them...

yakface wrote:
In short, DE are not going anywhere.

Too right! Ten years of not going anywhere! ....

;-)


I think Wood Elves are the perfect example for this army. It will happen, until then, play the army (like me) and dream a little dream of what's to come.. someday.
My number one wish was always just to have the equivalent of Guardian Storm Squads. Anything else is gravy baby!

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the *hearsay* (i.e. rumor and speculation) suggests the exact opposite.

Clearly you have trouble discerning the distinction between "eyewitness testimony" and "hearsay."

JohnHwangDD wrote:Wolves? I don't know. Wolves haven't gotten anything lately, aside from a single Apoc Datasheet. But they're obviously "due" by inference from everything else GW has done. When, nobody can say.

Don't forget, Wolves got mention and a fluff update with the Eye of Terror campaign.

George Spiggott wrote:Dark Eldar will be the must have army of 2010, or possibly 2011...

They're my must have army for the year Hell freezes over.

Which is a shame, because I'm one of those waiting to play a decent DE range.

Pariah Press wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the *hearsay* (i.e. rumor and speculation) suggests the exact opposite.

Clearly you have trouble discerning the distinction between "eyewitness testimony" and "hearsay."

Fun fact: Eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable in court. Doubly so when speaking of something as trivial as plastic toys.

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:Once GW's engineers figure out some way to create 10% more shelf space to accomodate DE boxes, they'll be released. I suspect that TARDIS technology might be involved so it'll take a while.

It's easier to use space distortion technology to create more shelf frontage than to reduce the amount of shelving allocated to Space Mariens.

Heck it's easier to invent spacefold tech than it is to drum up interest in the Dark Space Elfs of Space.

How about giving the Dark Eldar spiked cod pieces?

yakface wrote:
Anyway, for those not awash in fantasy, again here are some salient points regarding the Dark Eldar:

Phil Kelly confirmed at the LAGD that he was currently writing the DE codex.

Jes Goodwin confirmed at the last LAGD that he was currently working on the DE models.

When they said DE codex and models are you sure they didn't mean the Damned and the Entirely lost?

(Clutching to hope)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

yakface wrote:
Anyway, for those not awash in fantasy, again here are some salient points regarding the Dark Eldar:

Phil Kelly confirmed at the LAGD that he was currently writing the DE codex.

Jes Goodwin confirmed at the last LAGD that he was currently working on the DE models.

When they said DE codex and models are you sure they didn't mean the Damned and the Entirely lost?

(Clutching to hope)

They were speaking of the Pan Fo.

You know, I really hope they do revamp the Evil Space Elves. OK, most of the sculpts for them have been ridiculously pointy to no real point in it. THere were some problems there. I think that their rules really needed tweaking some, not a complete re-write. Hell, the people I knew who played them ran roughshod over opponents a lot of the time. Thing is, I like fringe armies. I am no real fan of playing an army list that I didn't write, somehting formulaic. If I wanted formula, I'd break out the chessboard. DE are such a good concept, I think, but truly I think they may require more space to play properly than a 6x4 has. When I think of them, I imagine fast, fragile. Which is fairly common. But there seems to me to be little room on a 6x4 for proper maneuver for craft as fast as raiders and such are suppossed to be.

I think that their proper playstyle is so different from any other race out there. It's very distinctive. It's very extremist, and that makes it a great option in a game that can quickly begin to look like cookie cutter city. Facing different armies is great. DE were a different army

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the *hearsay* (i.e. rumor and speculation) suggests the exact opposite.

Clearly you have trouble discerning the distinction between "eyewitness testimony" and "hearsay."

Fun fact: Eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable in court. Doubly so when speaking of something as trivial as plastic toys.

Yes but this isn't a court of law. If the super-reliable Brimstone has said he's seen the models, there is no reason to doubt what he is saying. Check his reputation on Warseer, this guy is never wrong.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I think the evidence suggesting they will eventually be updated far outweighs any evidence that they will be discontinued.

I think their inclusion within the art and fluff of the 5th ed rulebook should be enough for most people to believe that they’re here to stay.

The Dark Eldar are not popular because the model line is arguably the least attractive of any army in 40k and the codex is the most out of date. Given a new codex and a set of new plastics the Dark Eldar will be as popular as any other army and will certainly enjoy a popularity spike in the months immediately following a new codex and models.

I would imagine that Dark Eldar is a bit of a 600 lb gorilla at GW. It’s not like any other army that could use some spit and polish to bring into the fold… the entire line needs to be re-sculpted, the entire codex needs to be rewritten, and that requires an enormous investment in resources over a long time period resulting in ABSOLUTELY ZERO supporting capital until the project is complete.

They’ll be here eventually… I wouldn’t touch those crap-tastic models with a 10-foot pole in the meantime – but they’ll be here.

OTOH, over that same timeframe, GW created S3 T3 hypertech Tau out of thin air, and then released an update for them, with continuing Apoc support.

The same effort in creating Tau could have been spent on DE, probably for similar result.

What does that tell you about GW's 40k resource allocation?

To me, it says that the DE label or brand is the "third rail" of GW design, and you will get burned if you touch it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OTOH, over that same timeframe, GW created S3 T3 hypertech Tau out of thin air, and then released an update for them, with continuing Apoc support.

The same effort in creating Tau could have been spent on DE, probably for similar result.

What does that tell you about GW's 40k resource allocation?

To me, it says that the DE label or brand is the "third rail" of GW design, and you will get burned if you touch it.

GW did create Tau and, in all honesty, they created Necrons and developed some Lost and the Damned things along the way.

You are right in that the same effort COULD have been spent on DE and, when Tau was originally released, there were rumors that they were ACTUALLY an attempt at DE that went horribly horribly wrong – but resulted in a viable army… coupled with the ENORMOUS popularity of Anime, it was sort of a happy accident for GW.

I couldn’t say for sure though, those were just rumors.

I honestly have NO idea what GW does with their development resources. I tend to imagine it’s a bunch of middle-aged virgins with long hair who surf the internet all day, order pizza, and smoke a lot of pot and sometimes sit down to a game of 40k or Fantasy when they’re not arguing about what’s cooler – Star Wars of Star Trek. I’ve seen kindergarten classes with more creative productivity than Games Workshop.

I HONESTLY thin Games Workshop mostly consists of a bunch of goof-offs who only ever accomplish anything when one or two developers gets put on probation for marijuana use.

It’ll get done. We’ll see a new and glorious Dark Eldar codex one day – but someone at GW will have to probably have a bad experience in an S&M club while on meth before that happens.

Um, they can't all be virgins - Jervis has a son, after all...

Ozymandias wrote:If the super-reliable Brimstone has said he's seen the models, there is no reason to doubt what he is saying. Check his reputation on Warseer, this guy is never wrong.

Then again, I think I remember him saying prior to the release of the Dark Angels codex that it was going to be amazing and awesome and unbelievable and we were all gonna love it when we finally saw it.

JohnHwangDD: If apoc releases are an indication of future support then LatD are getting a full codex cause there's an APOC datasheet for them!

Oh wait, APOC datasheets are no indication of anything, my mistake.

Abadabadoobaddon: There's a difference between saying something is coming out (objective) and something is going to be awesome (subjective). If you like I can make a purdy illustration or a pop-up book or something to help you understand.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@Ozy: I'd take it to mean that LatD are getting a full Codex before DE.

Seems you are fooled easily. Come on over, I've got some great snake oil to sell ya!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Heh. We'll see...

Only Lost and Damned you are going to get.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@Ozy, I know this is a sci-fi board, but Yoda-talking not is needed!

Ozymandias wrote:Abadabadoobaddon: There's a difference between saying something is coming out (objective) and something is going to be awesome (subjective). If you like I can make a purdy illustration or a pop-up book or something to help you understand.

Yes I know the difference between subjective and objective. You see, I actually wasn't being entirely serious when I posted previously. Here's a link that perhaps might help you to understand - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue_in_cheek. Good luck.

I wanted a pop up book :( .

Abada...: No, what you were doing was trolling. You made the comment specifically to get a rise out of me.

Since you're fond of Wikipedia definitions, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

DE are going to get done. GW has said more about DE than SW. There are design staff known to be working on it. Some people have seen stuff for them. Obviously work is being done, if not very slowly.

GW is taking as much time to redevelope the DE as they would to develope an all new race, because they see this as much as reinvention as an update.

I can understand doubting aspects of a rumor, but doubting that anything is happening at all, when the designers have talked briefly on it, thats just silly.

Ozymandias wrote:You made the comment specifically to get a rise out of me.

I highly doubt he's trying to turn you on

Ozymandias wrote:Abada...: No, what you were doing was trolling. You made the comment specifically to get a rise out of me.

Oh Ozy, I'm sorry - I had forgotten you were there. You may go now.

Ozymandias wrote:Abada...: No, what you were doing was trolling. You made the comment specifically to get a rise out of me.

And your crack about LatD wasn't designed to get a rise out of LatD players who lost their army?

BYE

Actually, no it wasn't. John and I were going back and forth and frankly weren't that serious (you can tell by the and the that we both added in our posts). Abby wasn't involved but posted specifically to get a reaction out of me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Actually, no it wasn't. John and I were going back and forth and frankly weren't that serious (you can tell by the and the that we both added in our posts). Abby wasn't involved but posted specifically to get a reaction out of me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

And you're surprised because? It's Abadabadoobadon.

Kirasu wrote:I dont think people are saying DE suck.. just that they have horrible models, no fluff and a bad codex except for Dark lances and disintegrators

Those items are good, the army however is very uninspired

Agonizers? Shadow-field?

Ozymandias wrote:Actually, no it wasn't. John and I were going back and forth and frankly weren't that serious (you can tell by the and the that we both added in our posts).

Gawd, I hope nobody took our exchange as serious gospel...

I read this whole thread thinking it was going somewhere cool...

Nah...

Just devolving into social internet combat. Still entertaining though

Star Wars is obviously cooler btw.