I talked to someone at a game store and he recommended Army Builder to help me sort out rebuilding my armies. I saw a copy online but it indicated 4th edition.
Any good?

No good will come of this.

There are two camps.

1) Those who use it and like it, know full well that it is not a substitute for the codex/rules and merely an additional tool.
2) Those who don't like it, it's licence system, what they see as 'paying for something they can do themselves' and assorted other issues.

I'm in camp #1. I consider it worth it. Yes, you have to wait at least 30 days for the updates after codex release. Yes, there will be bugs/issues. Yes, the people who write the files are volunteers who do their best - which is still more support than GW have shown to their own inferior product.

Has the GW roster software been updated since the Eldar codex?

If it's the GW software, kick whoever offered it to you in the nuts. Now. Get off the PC, go to him, and Kick him.

What you want to get is Army Builder from Wolf Lair. The Army Building Software. Yes, its $35, but compared to what you spend on GW stuff, its a Bargain. You can even get a Demo Version for free (duh) so try it out! I have bought it and it is the best Investment I have ever made tbfh. The 40k game has Excellent Datafile support (as does WHFB) and it turns list building from a frustrating hour with the calculator to 10-20 minutes tops!

It was not at GW store. He said I should probably but didn't offer to sell it to me. I saw in Bitz Barn and in think War Store had it too.

Ah well, if it's that Army Builder, then get it. Just make sure its version 3 (not version 2).

Or even better just buy it online from Wolf Lair.

There is no demo version of AB3.

[What you download is the full version, but it is nobbled until you pay for the program properly and get the unlock code.]

That saying, I bought an actual boxed cd copy, and downloaded my second (free licence) copy as the cd key only works with a (one) cd copy - so although you have two licences, you have to download the 2nd one as just installing the cd on a 2nd machine won't work).

Paid the 'update' fee earlier this year when my year was up - and it's still cheap at the price.

I'm in camp 1 also. Definately worth the $. Click and drag, a hell of alot better than writing it out.

There are updates all the time. Even if you don't renew your liscense, you can still download updates manually.

chromedog wrote:There is no demo version of AB3.

[What you download is the full version, but it is nobbled until you pay for the program properly and get the unlock code.]

Oh You! Stop being so Pedantic

Even in AB itself it calls it a "Demonstration Mode"

my friend might have a baby with it he loves it so much. i however prefer excell

Army builder from wolf lair is easily worth the $35.

Another camp 1 guy here.

I say that you shouldn't get it. Whats the point of spending good money you can spend getting other stuff(like that new Leman russ you've been wanting ) when you can do it by hand, it takes a little while but its fun!!! I spent 3 hours looking at a picture and figuring out the point values.Yes Army Builder is organized but not as much fun or exciting.

I think it's ace, once you use it for more than one system it's definitely worth the cash.

I use it for a bunch of games, not just 40k.

It's also a handy tool for validating lists for our club tourneys and picking up arithmetic errors in people's lists.
(I do have all of the codices, and in combo with AB, it makes the checking so much easier).

@Gwar: I can't help it. I'm a half-auto-didact chaotic neutral pedant.
(see your qualifier. Demonstration mode, not demo version.).

chromedog wrote:I use it for a bunch of games, not just 40k.

It's also a handy tool for validating lists for our club tourneys and picking up arithmetic errors in people's lists.
(I do have all of the codices, and in combo with AB, it makes the checking so much easier).

@Gwar: I can't help it. I'm a half-auto-didact chaotic neutral pedant.
(see your qualifier. Demonstration mode, not demo version.).

Sir, you beat me in Pedantry. Of course, call a Spade a Spade ffs. Demo version ≡ Demonstration Mode

P.S. I like funny Symbols

It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

Holy Christ on a Stick. Where do I begin.

Firstly: They CANNOT do the Datafiles themselves. They wanted to. They Really Did, but GW would not let them do them for money, so they have to let 3rd parties do them on a Volunteer basis.
Secondly: The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.
Thirdly: They will get all the 5th edition stuff up. Like I said, they are not allowed to do it before a month. What would you Rather have? A one month Delay or No Files? other than the IG stuff(which will be out soon anyway), EVERYTHING ELSE IS THERE. Including a Ton of Variant Lists.

So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

Also CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE control for COOL!

In conclusion: Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening you mouth.

Gwar! wrote:The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.

Just wanted to highlight the important bit. I use Army Builder, and it is pure sex when it comes to tweaking your tournament list.

Armybuilder also makes it very easy to play around with lists a find stuff that fits. It can get quite annoying trying to use pen and paper.

Gwar! wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

Holy Christ on a Stick. Where do I begin.

Firstly: They CANNOT do the Datafiles themselves. They wanted to. They Really Did, but GW would not let them do them for money, so they have to let 3rd parties do them on a Volunteer basis.
Secondly: The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.
Thirdly: They will get all the 5th edition stuff up. Like I said, they are not allowed to do it before a month. What would you Rather have? A one month Delay or No Files? other than the IG stuff(which will be out soon anyway), EVERYTHING ELSE IS THERE. Including a Ton of Variant Lists.

So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

Also CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE control for COOL!

In conclusion: Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening you mouth.

Well yes, I DO have some idea what it takes, and no they do not have all the IG stuff ready and waiting for the magic thirty days. As for the CAPS LOCKS, I use it as I please, are you really age 7? And I know when to cap as required and when it is optional, or DO AS I PLEASE, like that.

If you run Space marines then the files get updated in a burst of speed as that is what most of the volunteers run, if you run something else then not so quick, there are still not total updates for the 3rd edition Witch hunters.... In the end if one is going to pay for a program that has a oddball licensing scheme it might not be too much to hope they keep it updated.

As much as I understand just how difficult GW can be, for a company that basically has a lock on a market, and the owners of Army Builder do have such a lock, I got tired of the "depending on volunteers because GW won't let them do it any other way" excuse a long time ago. Show me a GW legal challenge sent out to either the owners of Army Builder or the maintainers. You will not find one. GW has not sued the maintainers, and it is not because they are volunteers..

I see nothing in the law that would prevent that company from paying someone to make those files, they just choose not to because they know volunteers will do it.


In conclusion: YOU Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth.

It looks like it will help me alot since I have four armies to update. Making my Eldar lists is about as much fun as putting war walkers together. The price is about the same as a wave serpent so its not unreasonable if saves me a lot of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I forgot my nephew just getting into WH40K so I can help build a list as well.

As has been mentioned, the datasets are not perfect so you do have to go through and check that all the options are legal and the points are correct.

Personally, I find the interface pretty clunky and not really any easier than using a spreadsheet.

On the other hand, the printed list you get at the end is very nice - much nicer than I can be bothered to make myself.

I like army builder because there's no margin of err on the point counts. Too often I've been in a game where someone has fudges the numbers to her that extra power fist or worse. If I see an army builder list at least I know I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes. I use it and encourage its use. It's a $35 piece of mind.

I mainly use a codex and pen and paper for lists for regular 40k games. Then again, I have legible handwriting - the same cannot be said for many of my clubmates.

For something like combat patrol where there are more restrictions, I'll use AB.

For doing up characters for my club's inquisitor game, I use AB. For validating and cross checking tourney lists it is an extra bit of insurance.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:As much as I understand just how difficult GW can be, for a company that basically has a lock on a market, and the owners of Army Builder do have such a lock, I got tired of the "depending on volunteers because GW won't let them do it any other way" excuse a long time ago. Show me a GW legal challenge sent out to either the owners of Army Builder or the maintainers. You will not find one. GW has not sued the maintainers, and it is not because they are volunteers..

I see nothing in the law that would prevent that company from paying someone to make those files, they just choose not to because they know volunteers will do it.


In conclusion: YOU Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth.

I do have some Idea. In fact, I shall Repost here what has been said on WL own forums:

As for paying us, or being employees, or Lonewolf developing the files themselves. These are not options. The reason is very simple.

Intellectual Property. All games systems have copywrights on their game material. If we developed our files and charged for the service, we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product. As such we do develop our files, but they ARE NOT a replacement for the printed codex rules. In fact, you are still required to own the Codex rules if you use the datafiles.

As for LW making the files themselves, these same issues would arise for them. This is a key reason for LW specifically NOT providing datafiles. They also DO NOT HOST the files. They do however provide a services that when files are updated and those datafile maintainers provide the file locations, AB will get the updated files for you. You however are not required to use the auto-update feature and therefor not pay the annual subscription.

I understand that the 5ed codex has been wanted for a LONG time, however please understand that as volunteer gamers doing this on our own time, we will only get them done when we have the time.

The purchase of Army Builder did not provide you the purchase of datafile rulesets also. It DID however provide you the tools to create any datafile ruleset you wish. Every person is more than able to maintain their own files. I personally recommend against it, as if everyone did their own files then how do you know their version is correct? But if we are not getting something done fast enough, that is an option provided.

As always, the maintainer team will continue to create a unified standard datafile set that 'should' be used to confirm validity of lists. These updates will be done when we have the time and resources to get them done. I am sorry, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and that also goes for the datafiles. As for bugs, they happen. We are only a dev/test group of about a dozen people. We cannot possibly come up with every single varied list that is possible in a codex, and sometimes programming works one way, but when applied in another it breaks. Even Microsoft has bugs if their software.

How many of you are running Vista right now? That was released with piles of bugs, and more show up every day. That is why you get an update almost weekly! These updates from MS are provided weekly because they have hundreds of developers to help fix issues. We do not, so our updates will take a bit longer.

So, OH SNAP! There is something in the law stopping them doing it!
Now, I would appreciate a Public Apology for your Libel (Slander is spoken, Libel is Written)

I generally write up my lists on paper, when I'm happy with the list I put it on Army builder and print it for tournaments.
I have used it for some reference on different armies. I would say buy it due to the fact that it is the best way to show your army meets all requirements and it gives all info needed to your opponent. Most hand written and excel lists won't show stats of troops and weapons. I think it is a big plus to have.

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

Gwar! wrote:
So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

It's trivial to edit, or create datafiles. I had the new guard codex in a datafile before the codex was released. If you're going to use armybuilder, learn to use the authoring tool, you'll save yourself a lot of aggravation.

"So, OH SNAP! There is something in the law stopping them doing it!
Now, I would appreciate a Public Apology for your Libel (Slander is spoken, Libel is Written) "

The difference between stupid and dumb is you can grow out of one of them, good luck to you on it.

Lone Wolf ---- If we developed our files and charged for the service, we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product.

Game Workshops----
"Accordingly, you can do quite a lot of things with our intellectual property without having a formal license with us" See the "Formal License" part?

OH SNAP, let me fix that Lone Wolf part.....

If we developed our files and charged for the service,

without agreeing to a formal license with Game Workshops and giving them money for using their intellectual property

we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product

so instead we will sell a product that is dependent on volunteers completing a necessary part to avoid giving Game Workshops their due and shipping a completed product, please ignore that we advertise it as a complete product.

From the Lone Wolf page where on Army Builder

http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=army_builder



For miniatures gamers, Army Builder® is as vital as glue and paint. Create rosters in minutes and let Army Builder handle the bookkeeping. Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips. Errors are automatically flagged when a roster isn't legal. Detailed printouts save you time and let you focus on the game. See for yourself why Army Builder is the industry standard used by miniatures players worldwide! Just follow the links below.

"Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips."

Go ahead and click thru the order process....show me on THOSE pages where it says otherwise.

There we go, OH SNAP

Yes, I know you need maintainer files, the question is

How many new players to 40k know that when they see the "Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips."?

You did notice the "Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips." just to make sure you noticed....

To make the point, there is nothing in the law stopping them from doing it, they just do not want to get into an agreement with Game Workshops and cough up some of their money to do so.

Lest someone mention that Lone Wolf just makes the system software and never drills down into the specifics of a game, look on their web site at their newer products.

When you learn to format your Posts rather than make them an unreadable copypaste nightmare, I'll come back to you

Gwar! wrote:When you learn to format your Posts rather than make them an unreadable copypaste nightmare, I'll come back to you

There was a reason it was formatted that way, guess you were not lucky....

Lucky? Please, elaborate why you formatted it so badly.

Appearantly NeedleOfInquiry wants to pay an extra $30 for the Games Workshop army files. Or the author of NeedleOfInquiry's post thinks that the Army Builder authors should engage in licensing negotiations with all of the companies which produce the games for which people produce data files. Then again, appearantly that same author thinks that modern poetry is a good template to use when formatting forum posts.

I've heard people say that they don't want to use Army Builder because they want to get to know their army list better. Personally, I like Army Builder because it's more convenient when I'm adding and removing options and trying to see what I can fit into my point limits.

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

Don't use Army Builder...

...it'll just depress you.

You'll make awesome lists for armies you don't have the codex for and then get bummed out because all that stuff hurts your wallet.



I use it for 40k, WHFB, Warmachine, and Hordes... I also use it for lists consisting of nothing but Tau Pirahnas... *sniff* someday, my Pirahnas, someday

Speaking of AB, I was just playing around with it an noticed that it lets you take Crusaders as henchmen in a DH list.

Clthomps wrote:Speaking of AB, I was just playing around with it an noticed that it lets you take Crusaders as henchmen in a DH list.

I think that's probably a bug. Sign up to the website and report it. It will more than likely be fixed in the next release.

Good if you have it, worth it if you have either a lot to play with and are constantly changing your lists, if not, just do it by hand, I use a calculator and subtract what I am taking, I usually end up about where I want. Except with the new Guard Codex, may take a while before I get things worked out again (BTW, the Valkyrie is worth EVERY point!)

Camp #1. Army builder is fantastic.

Gwar! wrote:If it's the GW software, kick whoever offered it to you in the nuts. Now. Get off the PC, go to him, and Kick him.

What you want to get is Army Builder from Wolf Lair. The Army Building Software. Yes, its $35, but compared to what you spend on GW stuff, its a Bargain. You can even get a Demo Version for free (duh) so try it out! I have bought it and it is the best Investment I have ever made tbfh. The 40k game has Excellent Datafile support (as does WHFB) and it turns list building from a frustrating hour with the calculator to 10-20 minutes tops!

Unfortunately I have to agree with Gwar here. The wolfs lair version is just amazing, and they update it when new codexes and rule changes come out as well. Well worth the 35 bucks.

We're getting close to a lockdown here...

Debate the merits (or not) of Armybuilder, but let's leave off with the personal attacks?

OK?

2000 Volts wrote:I like army builder because there's no margin of err on the point counts. Too often I've been in a game where someone has fudges the numbers to her that extra power fist or worse. If I see an army builder list at least I know I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes. I use it and encourage its use. It's a $35 piece of mind.

This is the biggest problem with AB - people take it as gospel when, in fact, anyone can go in and edit the points values.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is the biggest problem with AB - people take it as gospel when, in fact, anyone can go in and edit the points values.

Anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. You need to edit the files, but you also need to know what to change. For many it is simply too much effort.

Besides, the same people who would do this are generally the same ones who would fudge the numbers in any other list they generated.

It has removed the chance of getting a scrawled list on the back of a barmat, or a sheet of paper that a drunk chicken wandered across with muddy feet. It gives me a legible list that is laid out so that most details are obvious. Yes, there are some .xls files out there that will do the same, but many people prefer the easier option.

Camp #1 - Armybuilder is awesome. I could probably make up my own magic spreadsheet, but I'm lazy. While the AB interface takes a bit of getting used to, I don't see that its particularly unwieldy. considering the number of options available to certain troop types the interface is quite logical.

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

To prove Libel (Defamation), you have to prove Falsifiability, Malice and actual (not just emotional) Damage. This is hard to do when the AB Datafile authors haven't weighed in. Seeing as how they are, by default, an anonymous/faceless group - it's kinda hard for them to claim damage to a reputation. Also as volunteers, they couldn't attach a dollar value to the damage to a reputation, that - even if it exists - only serves for volunteer work.

However: accusing someone of Malicious Defamation in an open forum, such as this one, with other third parties present is, in itself, Defamatory. NeedleofInquiry will be in contact through cousel soon I expect.

Sorry, but in the Land of the First Amendment, Libel is easy to threaten and hard to prove. Just ask Papa Bear after his discussion with Tonya Acker.

I own AB, I use it, but I do feel a little taken advantage of when they ask $40 for a program that is nigh-unto useless without the efforts of third-party volunteers. Needle, we all know that WL wouldn't be able to give the program away without the cooperation of GW. They can 1) choose to thumb their nose at GW and run the risk of a combative business relationship, or 2) acquiesce to GW modest request for a delay in releasing a file to prevent friction. They have chosen the latter. Other companies have not, and they are still in business today. It is an unfortunate reality of the game we play. I don't like it either, and I'm not going to join in the chorus of voices singing the praises of WL, but it is the Least Worst of all of the army list makers out there.

Sirs i bite my thumb at you and bid you good day

I liked the 2.x versions of Army Builder (not because they were crackable), but find the newer 3.x versions to be unintuitive and generally a pain in the ass. Since the changeover I've stuck to Excel.

Fortunately so many armies are so ridiculously out of date (Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, Necrons, Tau, etc) that Army Builder 2 still works for them!

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

Not in the legal sense. Under common law, insults are not defamation. In addition, the plaintiff would have to show actual monetary damages unless the defamation fell into one of four fairly narrow categories (disease, crime, failure in office, lack of female chastity).

English libel law is more favorable to plaintiffs, but the above is still true there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_libel_law

A: Any computer programme is crackable. Dont care what people say, its still the case.

B: "blah blah, we have all things you need" implies that it actually woudl be useful for my 5th ed guard. Distance selling laws in the UK say you MUST accept a return with full refund (you pay postage, not me) if it doesnt do what it says it does, which, excuse my over-reppetition of words here, it doesnt.

C: 25 pounds (40 dollars, ish) for something that in any other market would be freeware or shareware? GTFO. I mean, i'd donate to (and have, in other markets, again) something useful like this, and freeware products can pretty easily thumb their noses at "dont release this until x date" instructions from the manufacturer. Stick a "you must own codex Y to use armylist Z" in the EULA, legally untouchable.

D: Gwar!, I take great satisfaction right now in saying, you're NOT right. Rah.

E: I declare Cookies for everyone. *hands out cookies*

I for one one am in Camp 2.

but not because of what the first reply said, more because of errors, bugs, incompatabilities, and overall crappyness.

Yes, you can make army lists really fast, but what if there is an error in AB, and your list is actually not valid but AB allows it? Volunteers create the datafiles, they are Far from perfect. The gaming store i used to go to had a computer with AB hooked up to a printer in the back so people could make lists quick for pickup games, when i had an opprotunity i checked it out and in the first sitting I found 4 or 5 errors with just the vampire counts army.

If you do the math yourself for creating your army you will quickly learn the values of all the units, all the upgrades etc, and in no time at all you can conceptualize and create lists without being tied to your computer.
It also forces you to go through your codex occasionally and possibly find things that AB may have missed.

AB is a tool that i find is best used for quickly creating army lists for casual games that you dont have a point value list prepared for. If you have a laptop that you carry with you to the gaming stores and tend to not have lists prepared, its worth it. If you have a little bit of time before you go to the stores to draw up lists at different point values yourself, then its not worth it.

I'll go B. I enjoy being able to change my list without a computer. Pick up games aren't always the same point values and I am not carrying twenty different army lists around everywhere i go for each army I play. Yes AB is more organized I would hope you could borrow someone's come tourney time but I won't get it. The choice is yours.

Oh and if you suck at math you better get it.

Demogerg wrote:I for one one am in Camp 2.

but not because of what the first reply said, more because of errors, bugs, incompatabilities, and overall crappyness.

Yes, you can make army lists really fast, but what if there is an error in AB, and your list is actually not valid but AB allows it? Volunteers create the datafiles, they are Far from perfect. The gaming store i used to go to had a computer with AB hooked up to a printer in the back so people could make lists quick for pickup games, when i had an opprotunity i checked it out and in the first sitting I found 4 or 5 errors with just the vampire counts army.

If you do the math yourself for creating your army you will quickly learn the values of all the units, all the upgrades etc, and in no time at all you can conceptualize and create lists without being tied to your computer.
It also forces you to go through your codex occasionally and possibly find things that AB may have missed.

Seconding this.

Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

And this is coming from someone who owns a netbook he could easily use AB on for rapid list building but OpenOffice.Calc and Notepad are both easier and better.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

Bookwrack wrote:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

You mean apart from the part where it is true and limited use licences are rediculous?

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

You mean apart from the part where it is true and limited use licences are rediculous?

If EA and just about any sort of Security Software can do it and get away with it so can Wolf lair.

Camp #2 - Mac user

Though back in the day I did use Army Builder v2 something. Didn't much care for it. The printouts were pretty but the interface didn't suit me and it actually took me more time to put a list together with it. The new version might be better, but I wouldn't know.

Camp 1, Love the interface, love that it's multiple systems, love the print outs.

Best $ I've spent in the hobby.

I did not read the thread but I personally believe Army Builder is a great program. In fact, since I am in fact employed I think it is about time I got past the "three units only" demo program.

I haven't used AB yet, but I've thought about it. The biggest stumbling block for me is that I use a Mac laptop, so it is either be tied to my Wintel box at home, or figure out something else. I've opted for the later right now.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a Mac equivalent that isn't a plain Spreadsheet?

Mac has software?

Seriously, Wipe that thing and install Linux + WINE or Windows XP while waiting for Windows 7.

Now I'm not a proponent of "hacking" software, but I am missing my Army Builder v2 CD, I still have the case, but not the disc. I have been looking for either a free hacked copy (hey, I already paid for it, so morally I have no problem getting a hacked version now) or to buy a replacement cheap (nothing on eBay, which is surprising). Not suggesting anyone start throwing me links to such and such! Just saying.

now now kiddies
play nice !!!
tsk tsk

I still use versions 2 and 3. (Actually I use a version 1 disk that is upgraded to v2) Several older games don't have the best files in V3. i.e. Mordheim, Necromunda, etc. I too dislike some of the interface stuff with V3. I was at Gencon the year V3 rolled out and told one of the developers the things I didn't like when he showed me. Overall, its got some nice features though.

As far as the files, and their accuracy. I always double check my lists with the codex. AB has actually gotten me to buy codexes and armies to play once I saw some of the neat things I could do. Though I've given up on 40K and Fantasy due to a new ruleset coming out and codexes that take units out of existence. Oh that and the plastics replacing pewter and twice the cost... but I digress. Oh and the awful players in my area after the good gamestore shut down - shoot I digressed again sorry....

I have begun tinkering with editing files for the games I do still play. Fixing the errors myself. Its not that hard. Though apparently definitions files and their interactions with dat files can be tricky. The authoring kit instructions are not written well enough to make it that east to learn but I'm trying. Changing costs to be correct is pretty easy and making options available that should be available isn't that hard either, as long as that option exists somewhere. If you have to create a new option or weapon or something, well, I'd wait for the volunteer file monkeys.

The legal issues. I didn't know GW asked the file writers to wait for a month. Hmm, you learn something everyday. Since they do it for free, I'm not sure GW would have much of a case. As long as the file writers had a copy of the codex. They could probably ask LW to not link to the file site, since LW does make $$. The file writers could pretty easily thumb their nose at GW. Though the threat of legal action by a company against an individual would probably deter them since the file writers probably don't have the $$ to defend themselves in a civil trial.

I do think that GW and the other companies should approach LW to make their files. The GW program is just grabage and way behind the curve in codexes and rules. In fact, I'm positive that some of the problems with the GW program is because they can't copy AB too closely. LW set the standard and GW is playing catchup. I supose GW could want too much of the pie or insist tha LW charge ridiculous amounts for each codex and ruleset. It is GW after all.

FWIW, you can gt a copy of this program at "Art's Game Store" online for $30 + shipping.

You can get the same price at The Warstore if you provide them with the link to Art's.

Art's is a reputable seller, too. I've dealt with him numerous times and had NO issues.


Eric

Skinnattittar wrote:Now I'm not a proponent of "hacking" software, but I am missing my Army Builder v2 CD, I still have the case, but not the disc. I have been looking for either a free hacked copy (hey, I already paid for it, so morally I have no problem getting a hacked version now) or to buy a replacement cheap (nothing on eBay, which is surprising). Not suggesting anyone start throwing me links to such and such! Just saying.

Can't you just download the demonstration file and uncrack it with the code on your case?

I like Army Builder by Wolflair (have used it for years) and it works great for me.

It is not a substitute for the codex but an amazing tool for organizing, customizing, storing & printing your armies (for many game systems).

Anyone who complains that they (Wolflair) do not keep the data files up to date... do it yourself, the authoring software is open and included.

It works for me but I always use it side by side with the base rules & my codex.

malfred wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Now I'm not a proponent of "hacking" software, but I am missing my Army Builder v2 CD, I still have the case, but not the disc. I have been looking for either a free hacked copy (hey, I already paid for it, so morally I have no problem getting a hacked version now) or to buy a replacement cheap (nothing on eBay, which is surprising). Not suggesting anyone start throwing me links to such and such! Just saying.

Can't you just download the demonstration file and uncrack it with the code on your case?

I got my copy ages ago. I'm not even sure if they had option out for long, but I don't remember seeing a code on the case.

I download and tried the little bit it lets you and was pleased with it so I probably buy it.

That's the spirit. For the cost of a night out you get something that will give you so much more use. it is a very worthwhile investment.

I still run AB 2.2. I've written the Tau, IG (3/4th ed), Necron and Nid files myself for it (as the ones i could find were buggy). Its awesome.

I bought AB and list making is a lot easier and faster.

Trasvi wrote:I still run AB 2.2. I've written the Tau, IG (3/4th ed), Necron and Nid files myself for it (as the ones i could find were buggy). Its awesome.

I really recomend getting V3. Its so much better than V2, and come on, its $35, less than a night out at the Bar.

As someone who has used AB for almost 10 years.

Go and buy AB3.

I laid out the cash and find it difficult to do it any other way anymore, it is just too convenient.

I started with version 1.
Still use it (upgraded to 3 of course).

Best piece of wargaming software bar none.

The best part of owning this, is that you get a front row seat to watching all the idiots saying; "AB is full of errors and is often wrong".
Don't forget to ask these mouthbreathers to be specific. It is so much fun to make them realize that they haven't updated their files, haven't read the release-rules or are just plain stupid.

I've been using it and I like it quite a bit. It's a great tool for quick and easy lists, plus for a few of my buddies just getting into it, it allows me to help out in generating some basic lists to show them how it works. I personally like the added little notes here and there as I often forget page numbers in books on most stuff. It's been a great supplement for me.

So far I am happy with it.

My opinion: Won't play mini games without it.

Now I won't either. It only took me five minutes to make an army list as opposed to excel which I had make macros to add up my troop choices. And AB has rule sets so catch my mistakes.

Nevermind.

Ricter wrote:Random question, but how do you get the list to show unique characters, or are they not coded in?

Use the Little Clipboard

Edit: oops

Greatest gaming related invention since the tape measure. Makes armies easy to build and modify. It prints our legible army lists. The files are updated regularly and the 40k guys have a forum to post bugs on. It's great for keeping track of multiple games. I wouldn't make an army any other way.

I love AB. I use it all the time to make my own lists as well as validating list for local events. Heck, that ability alone is almost worth it.

I sit somewhere between the two groups. Personally for pick up games and friendly matches I prefer doing my lists from memory (I can probably think of, total, and double check a Space marine roster in my head faster than most people could load Army Builder!) I think AB takes something away from the game when making lists for everyday play. I also have seen numerous problems with AB allowing things that are illegal to be plaid by unsuspecting gamers. But when it comes to a tournament or some other situation where I would like to have a nice list printed out with cool graphics, AB is the King. I just think that $30 is waaay too much to spend on it!

Kroeger wrote:I sit somewhere between the two groups. Personally for pick up games and friendly matches I prefer doing my lists from memory (I can probably think of, total, and double check a Space marine roster in my head faster than most people could load Army Builder!) I think AB takes something away from the game when making lists for everyday play. I also have seen numerous problems with AB allowing things that are illegal to be plaid by unsuspecting gamers. But when it comes to a tournament or some other situation where I would like to have a nice list printed out with cool graphics, AB is the King. I just think that $30 is waaay too much to spend on it!

Yet you don't bat an eyelid on spending $40+ on a Leman Russ?

Gwar! wrote:

Kroeger wrote:I sit somewhere between the two groups. Personally for pick up games and friendly matches I prefer doing my lists from memory (I can probably think of, total, and double check a Space marine roster in my head faster than most people could load Army Builder!) I think AB takes something away from the game when making lists for everyday play. I also have seen numerous problems with AB allowing things that are illegal to be plaid by unsuspecting gamers. But when it comes to a tournament or some other situation where I would like to have a nice list printed out with cool graphics, AB is the King. I just think that $30 is waaay too much to spend on it!

Yet you don't bat an eyelid on spending $40+ on a Leman Russ?

Did he say that in a different thread? I don't see where he said it in this one.

I have been using Army Builder since version 2. I have built Access databases for 40K but prefer working with the templates provided in AB. I like Army Builder, especially when I figured out how to use the authoring tools. Now I don't have to wait for the updates or bug fixes to the different codices. I update them myself and add unit pop-up details so I don't have to refer back to my codex. It takes some front end time to do that but it is better than reinventing the wheel using MS Access. I say it is a great starting point for someone who wants to build list quickly to see what type of models to purchase.

I also use it for our local tournaments for ease of checking someone's list. Yes you can hack the software to say what you want it to say but you cannot hack my copy of it and that is what the list is being checked against. Anyone that knows me knows I'm a stickler to the rules so I do find the errors. Hope you enjoy it.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kroeger wrote:I sit somewhere between the two groups. Personally for pick up games and friendly matches I prefer doing my lists from memory (I can probably think of, total, and double check a Space marine roster in my head faster than most people could load Army Builder!) I think AB takes something away from the game when making lists for everyday play. I also have seen numerous problems with AB allowing things that are illegal to be plaid by unsuspecting gamers. But when it comes to a tournament or some other situation where I would like to have a nice list printed out with cool graphics, AB is the King. I just think that $30 is waaay too much to spend on it!

Yet you don't bat an eyelid on spending $40+ on a Leman Russ?

Did he say that in a different thread? I don't see where he said it in this one.

It's called an Example. Most people I know balk at the thought of spending $35 on Army Builder, but then go and spend ridiculous ammounts of money on Warhammer that just ends up staying in the box for months

Gwar! wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kroeger wrote:I sit somewhere between the two groups. Personally for pick up games and friendly matches I prefer doing my lists from memory (I can probably think of, total, and double check a Space marine roster in my head faster than most people could load Army Builder!) I think AB takes something away from the game when making lists for everyday play. I also have seen numerous problems with AB allowing things that are illegal to be plaid by unsuspecting gamers. But when it comes to a tournament or some other situation where I would like to have a nice list printed out with cool graphics, AB is the King. I just think that $30 is waaay too much to spend on it!

Yet you don't bat an eyelid on spending $40+ on a Leman Russ?

Did he say that in a different thread? I don't see where he said it in this one.

It's called an Example. Most people I know balk at the thought of spending $35 on Army Builder, but then go and spend ridiculous ammounts of money on Warhammer that just ends up staying in the box for months

Warhammer stuff, particularly stuff still in box, holds it's value reasonably well. even if bought at full retail, a person can resell for 60% of retail without much difficulty.

I support Army Builder. But it is a convenience item. If you highly value your time and dislike making army lists, then buy Army Builder, it is worth it. If you do not highly value your time, and/or like adding up your lists, then don't. It is really that simple. Army Builder is a time saving tool, pretty much plain and simple.

As to Gwar about buying a $40 Russ over $35 Army Builder, I disagree. You can put your Russ on the table and play it, you can't put Army Builder on the table and play it, unless you want to proxy, but in that case a small child's shoe is a good enough proxy, and cheaper (once you steal it off the small child).

Considering that most of you (myself included) have already spent hundreds if not thousands on this hobby, is $35 U.S. really gonna break you?

Vladigar wrote:Considering that most of you (myself included) have already spent hundreds if not thousands on this hobby, is $35 U.S. really gonna break you?

Not to mention you will get more use out of AB than any Leman Russ

It's so so - when the data files are good, it's great. When they're not written correctly it's terrible.

But regardless it's better than the crap from uncle walt.

Gwar! wrote:It's called an Example. Most people I know balk at the thought of spending $35 on Army Builder, but then go and spend ridiculous ammounts of money on Warhammer that just ends up staying in the box for months

Maybe.
But, in all honestly, it's a poor example.
It requires you to put words in the guy's mouth in order to make your point. Just because the people you know feel that way doesn't make it safe to assume that he will, as well.

Gwar! wrote:

Vladigar wrote:Considering that most of you (myself included) have already spent hundreds if not thousands on this hobby, is $35 U.S. really gonna break you?

Not to mention you will get more use out of AB than any Leman Russ

The Leman Russ Executioner is worth its weight in software

Why can't you have both? I don't need another Wave Serpent yet so I bought AB instead.

I am another in Camp #2.

I like using the product, but I 'personally' think Wolf Lair misled me when I initially bought the software (i.e., I believed they provided the rules files). It wasn't until the release of the new Space Marine codex that I realized it was maintained by volunteers. It really makes me wonder what exactly I paid for, as it seems like the data files would be the more difficult project (i.e., the army builder software appears fairly simple; I'm not a software designer, but I can't imagine it being very difficult to code).

Honestly, I don't see why we, as a community, don't start a project on one of the free software sites to read the data files published by the volunteers (i.e., cut Wolf Lair out).

Not following you gainesdp. The data files are already free. Wolflair doesn't make money from them. So they are already in a sense "cut out".

Todosi wrote:Not following you gainesdp. The data files are already free. Wolflair doesn't make money from them. So they are already in a sense "cut out".

You pay Wolf Lair for a program to read the files volunteers write. It was an idle thought, but I guess I'm just not sure why we bother paying $35 to Wolf Lair, when the program seems fairly simplistic and most of the heavy lifting is done by volunteers (i.e., I was suggesting that an idle Comp. Sci. inclined individual or student look into sourceforge.net or another open source type place). Regardless, I'm a geologist, so unless you need some rocks identified, I don't think I can really contribute much more to that other than the thought.

gainesdp wrote:when the program seems fairly simplistic

Please, go ahead and write an open source program for us right now then. I give you till Noon on the morrow to provide it. If it is that simple it shouldn't be a problem for you, even if you are a Geologist.

I agree it would be better if there was a freeware program instead of a pay one since the the reading program and the data files are produced by two distinct enitities.

rzsanguine wrote:I agree it would be better if there was a freeware program instead of a pay one since the the reading program and the data files are produced by two distinct enitities.

I also agree, but I don't preach about how easy it is, because it isn't. If there was a demand for a Free Alternative, it would have been made by now. The fact is that Wolf Lair provide a Damn Good program at a reasonable price that has excellent community support.

Ok good point.

i love armybuilder, nothing else to say

Steelmage99 wrote:

The best part of owning this, is that you get a front row seat to watching all the idiots saying; "AB is full of errors and is often wrong".
Don't forget to ask these mouthbreathers to be specific. It is so much fun to make them realize that they haven't updated their files, haven't read the release-rules or are just plain stupid.

If I had wasted my money on AB instead of being an IDIOT then I would give you the examples that you were looking for. I spend my time being a MOUTHBREATHER while I read my codex and do simple math. I did not however give up my money on a product that is unnecessary to the hobby, I guess I am JUST PLAIN STUPID.




.... Jackass

One thing I want to mention that's great about AB... I can use it in one window while I mess around in DakkaDakk in another window.

I like it. it's initially expensive but I find it so useful to just play about making lists

yeah i read every post but needles
im not gonna pay for it when i could buy models instead
i think game clubs should have 1 for everyones to use
i have a hard time buying the codex for my own army when you can download it, print it a few times, and cut and glue it to actually make sense to use in a game
this hobby is expensive enough
its not that i dont have the money i dont like being ripped off

This thread has been derailed by personal attacks.

Thread closed.

Please re-open a new one, IF anyone wishes to discuss the merits or downsides of the program itself, and not the people who like, or dislike, the program.