This is not meant as a critisism but more of a bit of education. We all know that GW(and a lot of sci fi in general) "borrows" ideas from other sources and makes it their own. So I thought it might be fun and educational to point out the instances of GW "borrowing" ideas.

1: Necrons- "Borrowed" from terminator
2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Alien/Aliens
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Aliens
4: Adeptus Arbites- "Borrowed" from Judge Dredd, at least the models anyway.
5: The concept of the "Warp" and traveling in the warp- "Borrowed" from Dune.
6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Japanime, like robotech, etc.
7: Kroot- "Borrowed" from Predator.
8: The Sentinel model- "Borrowed" from Star wars
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga
10: Raven Guard- "Borrowed" from Edgar Allen Poes, poem The Raven. ( I realize that there was really no sublety to this "borrowing" but still they could have been a bit more original)

That's 10 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many I have missed. Feel free to add.


GG

edited the title to bring clarity to the subject..GG

generalgrog wrote:
4: Adeptus Arbites- "Borrowed" from Judge Dredd, at least the models anyway.

The funny thing is that one of GW's first contracts was (IIRC) doing Judge Dredd minis. This would have been before or around the time of RT (and before the movie). Nothing to add, just a cool fact. Well I think it's a cool fact at least.

Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

Poppycock, .... next thing your going to say is that GW stole Elf, dwarf, human, goblin, orcs all from JRRTolkein or something.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

More correctly I think you ment to say where are the fantasy Tau, since he was saying every 40k army is just a space fantasy army. So you would have to point out a 40k army that did not have a fantasy precursor. Like the Tau.

Side note: The space dwarves are called Squats. And did exist at one point in 2nd edition 40k.

Strimen wrote:
Side note: The space dwarves are called Squats. And did exist at one point in 2nd edition 40k.

You found the joke! Have a cookie.

My first game ever in the 40k continuity was a Space Marine battle between my Orks and my best friend's Squats. My Great Gargant smashed up his war train, then he threw the GG at me. That sucker has to have been a pound or two of solid metal. Ouch.

Thank you very much Strimen, they were the ones I was thinking of. I assume everyone would figure it out by now, but I'll go and actually make the list:

Necron=Undead
Space Marine=Brettonian
Ork=Orc & goblin
Chaos=Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen=Tyranids (same structure fluffwise and similar unit types, even if the don't look exactly simliar)
Squats=Dwarves
Dark Eldar=Dark Elves
Craftworld Eldar=High Elves
Inquisition/Sisters/Daemonhunters=Empire
Chaos Daemons=CHAOS DAEMONS... How bad is it that you recycle your own miniatures?

Guys who got left out:
Skaven
Tau
Wood Elves
Ogres
Vampire Counts, unless you want to lump these guys and undead as necrons

See what I mean? And of course I'm going to say that GW stole every fantasy race from Tolkien/Norse legend/Chaucer... GW isn't in the business of being original, they're in the business of making money off of people who can't sue for themselves!

I don't know about the OP but I never saw anything close to a space marine in the aliens series. They had colonial marines,
which were more akin to the imperial guard. The space marines would have plowed through those aliens.

Also, I don't think you can credit Michael Moorcock or the Elric Saga for coming up with Nurgle as Nurgle really is a piece
of Summarian mythology.

I'd disagree, and say the Skaven and Tyranids are more similar.

Both are horde armies, both have expendable troops, both are spawned, etc.


And Wood Elves and Tau are similar in-game terms (shooty)

augustus5 wrote:I don't know about the OP but I never saw anything close to a space marine in the aliens series. They had colonial marines,
which were more akin to the imperial guard. The space marines would have plowed through those aliens.

Were they marines..check
Were they in space...check
Were they "space" "marines"...check
Were they GW's version of space marines...no

augustus5 wrote:
Also, I don't think you can credit Michael Moorcock or the Elric Saga for coming up with Nurgle as Nurgle really is a piece
of Summarian mythology.

Ok so they "borrowed" from Moorcock who "borrowed" from Sumeria.

Thanx for playing,

GG

2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
5: The concept of navigators from Dune.
6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Roswell Greys.
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga (I think it's older then that actualy)

Didn't Starcraft borrow Space Marines From GW? Who in-turn borrowed it from Starship Troopers?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Thank you very much Strimen, they were the ones I was thinking of. I assume everyone would figure it out by now, but I'll go and actually make the list:

Necron=Undead
Space Marine=Brettonian
Ork=Orc & goblin
Chaos=Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen=Tyranids (same structure fluffwise and similar unit types, even if the don't look exactly simliar)
Squats=Dwarves
Dark Eldar=Dark Elves
Craftworld Eldar=High Elves
Inquisition/Sisters/Daemonhunters=Empire
Chaos Daemons=CHAOS DAEMONS... How bad is it that you recycle your own miniatures?

Guys who got left out:
Skaven
Tau
Wood Elves
Ogres
Vampire Counts, unless you want to lump these guys and undead as necrons

See what I mean? And of course I'm going to say that GW stole every fantasy race from Tolkien/Norse legend/Chaucer... GW isn't in the business of being original, they're in the business of making money off of people who can't sue for themselves!

I'd include IG as Empire (they get a tank, don't they?) but besides that I agree.

The point is that 40k and Fantasy had a common starting point and then they diverged. Tau came out pretty recently, so they aren't based on a Fantasy army. Same reason there's no 40k equivalent of Ogres.

I think the OP is being a little bit hard on GW. A lot of the races in 40k are twists on essentially an archetype. Necrons are undead, just in technological form. Eldar are just elves put in a new setting. Same with Orks (except that they're pretty unique as far as their "culture" in that they borrow little from Tolkien's orcs).

Every time you see a fantasy game that has Elves and Dwarves do you cry copyright infringement? No, because the Norse didn't copyright those terms from their mythology, and everyone has been using them since then. So my argument is not so much that GW is original, it's that you can't credit those ideas solely to one source in many cases.

And there will be NO skaven in space. Ever.

Cryonicleech wrote:I'd disagree, and say the Skaven and Tyranids are more similar.

Both are horde armies, both have expendable troops, both are spawned, etc.


And Wood Elves and Tau are similar in-game terms (shooty)

Wood elves and tau are similar in game terms, but that's where the similarities stop I think... I don't know if that one works. And while skaven & tyranids have the same gaming style, that's again where they stop looking similar. I just see the mage priests, saurus warriors, skinks, and jungle swarms looking a lot like tyranid warriors, rippers, and the norn queens of tyranid fame. They're both organic, they're both animals, they're both led by psychically charged creatures, both have a defined hierarchy, both have low toughness, low save troops that can be fast and definitely massed. I see skaven as rats in all respects... They flee at the first sign of trouble, backstab each other, don't have a lot of cohesion, etc. That doesn't remind me of the iron-willed hive mind of the tyranids very much.

Oh

you meant by looks, then your correct methinks.


As for Nurgle, I read in some book years ago with the term "Nurgal" in it.

It isn't much help, IMHO, but it's something.

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Thank you very much Strimen, they were the ones I was thinking of. I assume everyone would figure it out by now, but I'll go and actually make the list:

Necron=Undead
Space Marine=Brettonian
Ork=Orc & goblin
Chaos=Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen=Tyranids (same structure fluffwise and similar unit types, even if the don't look exactly simliar)
Squats=Dwarves
Dark Eldar=Dark Elves
Craftworld Eldar=High Elves
Inquisition/Sisters/Daemonhunters=Empire
Chaos Daemons=CHAOS DAEMONS... How bad is it that you recycle your own miniatures?

Guys who got left out:
Skaven
Tau
Wood Elves
Ogres
Vampire Counts, unless you want to lump these guys and undead as necrons

See what I mean? And of course I'm going to say that GW stole every fantasy race from Tolkien/Norse legend/Chaucer... GW isn't in the business of being original, they're in the business of making money off of people who can't sue for themselves!

I'd include IG as Empire (they get a tank, don't they?) but besides that I agree.

The point is that 40k and Fantasy had a common starting point and then they diverged. Tau came out pretty recently, so they aren't based on a Fantasy army. Same reason there's no 40k equivalent of Ogres.

I think the OP is being a little bit hard on GW. A lot of the races in 40k are twists on essentially an archetype. Necrons are undead, just in technological form. Eldar are just elves put in a new setting. Same with Orks (except that they're pretty unique as far as their "culture" in that they borrow little from Tolkien's orcs).

Every time you see a fantasy game that has Elves and Dwarves do you cry copyright infringement? No, because the Norse didn't copyright those terms from their mythology, and everyone has been using them since then. So my argument is not so much that GW is original, it's that you can't credit those ideas solely to one source in many cases.

And there will be NO skaven in space. Ever.

Good point on the IG being empire though... That's definitely right. But I'll disagree with you on skaven. I'm going to deny reality and believe hopelessly that there WILL be space rats, just because it would be something different and wouldn't be marines.

And you're probably right about being tough on GW because really, has ANYTHING new been invented in fantasy terms in the last 700 years? I still think recycling your own stuff and putting it in space is a pathetic attempt at it. At least use a different archetype or mix & match archetypes with different physical & cultural styles.


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Cryonicleech wrote:Oh

you meant by looks, then your correct methinks.


As for Nurgle, I read in some book years ago with the term "Nurgal" in it.

It isn't much help, IMHO, but it's something.

Indeed, by looks, the broad playing style, and the overall 'feel' of the army (which would include culture, strategic weakness/strengths, etc.). I side with you on nurgle though, I think it's a complete ripoff from some obscure story somewhere along the line.

As an asside, if we can trace elves/eldar and dwarves/squats back to tolkien (in that he created the incarnation in which they are used now, rather than as spirits and evil creatures preying on the souls of men), then was would be the original source for the tau. They are obviously derived from anime, but who was the original author that developed the idea of robots with guns? Does anybody know?

generalgrog wrote:
Were they marines..check
Were they in space...check
Were they "space" "marines"...check
Were they GW's version of space marines...no

GG

Actually they were not in space when they fought the aliens. They fought them in the colony they went to investigate.

So by your logic they are "colony marines" Sort of similar to "colonial marines" me thinks.

Thanks for playing(and failing).

Heh,

Starcraft "borrowed" the space marine look from GW... and the dropship was based on the Aliens Pilot.

Space Marines- "Borrowed" from (Aliens & WTF!?! Starcraft)
Actually space marines as originally written (ie rogue trader) were much more like the Sardaukar in Dune.
Boltguns, armor, physical modifications and training, being taken from criminals, etc.
So Dune claims another faction.

I wondering if the new Necron material will take a similar inspirational root, having human traitors to the thinking machines, such like in the prequel novels.

Regwon wrote:As an asside, if we can trace elves/eldar and dwarves/squats back to tolkien (in that he created the incarnation in which they are used now, rather than as spirits and evil creatures preying on the souls of men), then was would be the original source for the tau. They are obviously derived from anime, but who was the original author that developed the idea of robots with guns? Does anybody know?

Orwell?

2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft

Correction: Starcraft/Warcraft "Borrowed" from GW. Both were meant to be Fantasy/40K RTS games but were rejected by GW. So Blizzard slapped their own coat of paint on each and resold them under new names.

Same reason there's no 40k equivalent of Ogres.

"Ogryns! Dis' Way!" -DoW Bone'ead command acknowledgement.

I prefer the word 'homage'.

metallifan wrote:

2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft

Correction: Starcraft/Warcraft "Borrowed" from GW. Both were meant to be Fantasy/40K RTS games but were rejected by GW. So Blizzard slapped their own coat of paint on each and resold them under new names.

Correction of Correction: This is true, indeed particularly for the Zerg, Blizzard said as much. They also returned to Starship Troopers for insperation. However, for the later updates of at least the nids codex, GW borrowed back from Starcraft, using some of the new units/abilities Blizzard had come up with. I would also define the differences between Fantasy/40k and Star/warcraft as slightly more then a coat of paint, but that's another issue.

generalgrog wrote:6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Japanime, like robotech, etc.

The Tau are bits and pieces from The Phantom Menace mixed with a smidgen of animeish stuff.

augustus5 wrote:
Also, I don't think you can credit Michael Moorcock or the Elric Saga for coming up with Nurgle as Nurgle really is a piece
of Summarian mythology.

While that may be the case, I don't think you can avoid the fact that GW 'borrowed' a LOT of what makes Chaos 'chaos' from Moorcock's Chaos.

Space Marines are taken directly from Starship Troopers the novel. There is also a pretty famous scifi novel entitled Armour that has super human soldiers in combat gear that was published in the seventies.



The old saying " All poets are liars all artists are thieves".

I facepalm every time I hear someone just getting into 40k talk about how cool it is, too bad it's a ripoff of Starcraft.
Starcraft is an EXCELLENT game and I cannot wait for the sequel, but it is in fact based partially on 40k.
Warcraft:Orcs vs Humans was going to be a WHFB PC game. GW pulled the plug (and the license) and Blizzard decided to change it here and there and make it their own.
Starcraft is the same deal, except with 40k.

And you notice how my point above is still valid. These are excellent games with good background, even though they have "borrowed" a lot from elsewhere.

Hollismason wrote:Space Marines are taken directly from Starship Troopers the novel. There is also a pretty famous scifi novel entitled Armour that has super human soldiers in combat gear that was published in the seventies.



The old saying " All poets are liars all artists are thieves".

ARMOR!

That book was excellent!

Even had a 'tyranid' sort of race in it too, I think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor_(novel)

All poets are liars and all artists are thieves.

Very true.

So is my old saying: The point has been made... Anyone have anything new to add?

Tau- Trade Federation! Tau=Nemodians, colour scheme=Identical, Drones=Battle Droids, Tanks look near Fethin identical, etc.

Both GW and Blizzard stole the concept from star ship trooper.

Then GW stole visual designs from Aliens (lol hormagaunt and dominatrix = space jockey )

Then Blizzard came up with zergs ( idea not original , but visual design is )

Then GW stole the visual design from Zergs , most noticeably the hydralisks , aka raveners and all tyranids head previous edition.

There you go.

CT GAMER wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
Were they marines..check
Were they in space...check
Were they "space" "marines"...check
Were they GW's version of space marines...no

GG

Actually they were not in space when they fought the aliens. They fought them in the colony they went to investigate.

So by your logic they are "colony marines" Sort of similar to "colonial marines" me thinks.

Thanks for playing(and failing).

Hmmmm..... so they somehow magically teleported to the planet? Or did they travel in a....oh I don't know I'll call it a "space" ship. And that "space" ship traveled in........ oh I don't know, I'll call it "space"

Sorry CT gamer..... you just got pwned
GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
I think the OP is being a little bit hard on GW.

I wasn't intentionally trying to be hard on GW. I just thought it would make good convo.

GG

I'd like to point out that the Slaan are in space in 40k. They were mentioned in the last rulebook so they aren't like anyone else in 40k, they are in 40k

And skaven in 40k=hrud if i remember correctly. Now they don't have an army but the basic idea is out there.

Oh, Dune and Starship Troopers (the books) were the greatest sources of inspiration for the general idea of the game I think. But that's just my personal opinion as I noticed a ton of similarities as I read them.

generalgrog wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
I think the OP is being a little bit hard on GW.

I wasn't intentionally trying to be hard on GW. I just thought it would make good convo.

GG

Fair enough. The word "ripoff" just seemed a bit harsh to me. Either way it's an interesting point that you bring up.

Certainly contemporaries of early 40k were influential (Alien, Terminator) as well as traditional sci fi/fantasy.

The 40k setting is reasonably unique in my opinion. A lot of people mock GRIMDARK (which can be hilarious sometimes) but I like the medieval feel of the future. Just my $.02

Well, they are rip offs .

If OP were to sugar coat it , it would be for the sake of
the warhammer players / fans.

Question is , do we really need it sugar coated? or move along / deal with it?

Mars.Techpriest wrote:2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft

other way around. Nids have been around since the early 90's, Starship Troopers the movie was mid to late 90s, as was starcraft. The book starship troopers described a much different alien race.

Then GW stole the visual design from Zergs , most noticeably the hydralisks , aka raveners and all tyranids head previous edition.

Again, no, the Zerg were entirely borrowed from SST, "Alien" and "Aliens", and the Tyranids. The Hydralisk head was actually based on a cross between the head for the old Zoanthrobe and the standard Alien creature from the old Sigourney films. The 4th Ed Tyranids were more heavily based on 40K's Starcraft offspring, with the exception of the Genestealer, which hasn't changed since Blizzard used it as the basis for the Zergling.

generalgrog wrote:

6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Japanime, like robotech, etc.

I hate you.
No. Not Internet "I disagree with your opinions" hate.
Like, I hate you as a person.
Last section deleted by Modquisition as offensive

LunaHound wrote:
Well, they are rip offs .

If OP were to sugar coat it , it would be for the sake of
the warhammer players / fans.

Question is , do we really need it sugar coated? or move along / deal with it?

Not at all actually. A "rip off" implies a total lack of originality. What comes to mind is the generic "Dr. Thunder" that happens to taste exactly like Dr. Pepper.

There is a HUGE difference between ripping something off and borrowing from it/being influenced by it.

That is, unless punk bands are all just ripping off Black Flag and the Clash. Or Tolkien was ripping off traditional British literature.

To put it simply, when a rapper "samples" something for their own song (not counting a tribute song) that's a ripoff.
When someone does a cover (like the Sex Pistols doing "Substitute" by the Who) that is more borrowing, because they take the idea and make it their own through changing it.

Unless it's Lindsay Lohan covering David Bowie. In which case it's a travesty.

Eldar borrowed from Tolkien.

... Because Tolkien invented elves (at least, the tall, graceful haughty immortal elves) , who were copied for Warhammer Fantasy, which was then transposed into 40k



Blizzard/GW have an interesting relationship. Starcraft/40k , Fantasy/Warcraft, are very linked to each other in development (hence why Warcraft orcs look like GW orcs).

Tau take some obvious similarities from Protoss (at least in the body/face structure, the rest of Protoss is much more similar to Eldar).
The rest of tau was (stated by GW) a homage to Amine robots and samurai etc.

Cryonicleech wrote:Didn't Starcraft borrow Space Marines From GW? Who in-turn borrowed it from Starship Troopers?

If GW can take inspiration from a game that wasn't created until ten years later then I welcome our new overlords.

Welcome to Scifi its been stealing from itself for quite some time, so happy you could finally catch up.

And the Space Marines are "based" off of the guys from Dune and Starship Troopers, Heinlein's work of art, not that Gakky movie.

generalgrog wrote:

Hmmmm..... so they somehow magically teleported to the planet? Or did they travel in a....oh I don't know I'll call it a "space" ship. And that "space" ship traveled in........ oh I don't know, I'll call it "space"

Sorry CT gamer..... you just got pwned


GG

I applaud your desire to stand by a weak argument to the bitter end. To many kids these days have no dedication to anything...

CT GAMER wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

Hmmmm..... so they somehow magically teleported to the planet? Or did they travel in a....oh I don't know I'll call it a "space" ship. And that "space" ship traveled in........ oh I don't know, I'll call it "space"

Sorry CT gamer..... you just got pwned


GG

I applaud your desire to stand by a weak argument to the bitter end. To many kids these days have no dedication to anything...

Awesome! I'm 38, and you called me a kid. Thanks.

By the way, I hope you realize I was just having some fun with ya.

GG

I always got a Starship Troopers feel from the Nids, not so much with the Marines though, they had a more IG feel for me, but I've only seen the movie.

Withe the Ravenguars, is there a Poe reference in their lore or something? I don't know much about them.

Tyras wrote:I always got a Starship Troopers feel from the Nids, not so much with the Marines though, they had a more IG feel for me, but I've only seen the movie.

Withe the Ravenguars, is there a Poe reference in their lore or something? I don't know much about them.

Firstly, if you get a chance to read SST then by all means take it. In this political rant/novel the Mobile Infantry are power-armor wearing badasses who jump around on their jump jets like House of Pain could only dream of.

Also, Raven Guard are indeed a Poe reference. One of the quotes in the fluff ends with "darkness is there and nothing more". (It's a "nod" to "The Raven" for all you uncultured heathens out there)

"Rip-offs" are often preferable to being original just for the sake of being original, I think.

3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Aliens

I'd have issues here, the "Colonial Marines" in Aliens have very little to do with the Space Marines, and the idea of "Space Marines" in general, predates even aliens, in some ways the Warhammer 40k Space Marines take their lead far more from the Lensmen/Starship Troopers

The concept of the "Warp" and traveling in the warp- "Borrowed" from Dune.

The -navigators- are stolen out of dune, the idea of the warp itself is more from Moorcock's Eternal Champion books, the Dune books themselves involve almost no hyperspace travel in the books themselves, and hyperspace travel presents no danger in and of itself, the navigators in Dune, do just that they -navigate-, substituting precognitive ability for banned computer navigation, in the later books (Heretics/Chapterhouse) navigational machines have been reintroduced.

Actually space marines as originally written (ie rogue trader) were much more like the Sardaukar in Dune.

Except the power armor, and heavy weapons, and genetic and physical enhancements... the only real refrence that we have to physical modifaction of the Sardarkar, is when they catch a few late in the book in Dune, and Paul tells the fremen to go to extreme-extremes searching them for concealed weapons... Remeber that the entire plot of Dune revolved around House Atredies training troops to -exceed- the Sardakar in training, and hoping to expand their forces when they took over the only planet in the galaxy that was -worse- than the Sardaukar's homeworld...

(Side note here, KJA Novels about Dune -do not exist- as far as I'm concerned)

So besides my first 10, there haven't been many more contributions. I mean I purposely avoided the tolkien references because the whole elves thing seemed a bit obvious and also just about everyone and the brother have used the elf theme.

The comparisons between fantasy and 40k were a bit off topic in my opinion but oh well.

GG

Let's see...you all only go as far back as what, the last century to say what things were taken from? Where do you think most of Tolkien's ideas came from...or any other author/writer? If you've guessed mythology, you're right. Sure, over the years and through different tellings the stories change, but do you honestly think any of the modern authors have contributed a great deal of original ideas? When I get around to it I'll go through some books and throw down some examples. Until then...someone else go do it for me to prove my point.

Edit:
So yes, while you can say GW borrowed from more modern things, so say that the modern things are original is really silly.

generalgrog wrote:
Awesome! I'm 38, and you called me a kid. Thanks.

By the way, I hope you realize I was just having some fun with ya.

GG

I'm same age, it was more a figure of speech. And I likewise was just talking a little smack...

generalgrog wrote:So besides my first 10, there haven't been many more contributions.

And none of the first ten really stand up to much scrutiny anyways. Topics like this are silly precisely because 1: you can always find an analogue somewhere, just given the sheer amount of stuff out there. Look at people who go, 'oh! oh! Dune has Navigators! 40K has Navigators! I know where they got that idea from hyuk hyuk.' It's certainly possible to come up with a more empty-headed correlation, but I'd rather not try. This very thread has posters equating space marines and colonial marines, whose only real shared trait is that their name contains 'marines' and they shoot stuff. 2: a lot of the terms, especially in the OP list are so vague as to be meaningless. Kroot are like the Predator because... they both kill stuff, I guess. Or, Raven Guard, borrowed from Poe. Ah yes, because we are all familiar with Poe's gripping tales of gentically enhanced super-warriors in the grim darkness of the far future- oh wait, no. They just happen to reference some of the most famous uses of ravens in western literature.

Really, these threads are mostly the spawn of sheer ignorance.

Wow bookwrack has some serious issues. I'm not sure where the hate is coming from.

Try learning some social graces and how to deal with people without insulting them before entering a conversation. Oh wait I forgot this is the internet where anyone can sit behind a computer screen and insult people without fear of reprisal.

GG

Where is there any hate? If you don't want to be called out for saying stupid things, then you should probably not say stupid things.


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Bookwrack wrote:Where is there any hate? If you don't want to be called out for saying stupid things, then you should probably not say stupid things.

Anyways, this is a thread that started off as being wrong on the internet, and has only gotten wronger, and wronger as it has progressed... on the internet! Can I be blamed for having leapt to my feet in a furious rage, only to immediately sit down, breathing heavily, THREE TIMES!

The problem of course is that your opinion that my thread is stupid is just that. AN OPINION. And therfore not fact. A lot of people contributed to the thread before you got on your "this is stupid" High horse, and went way over board with the insults even though I never insulted you.

Anyways I can tell an ignoramous when I see one. Welcome to the ignore list.. WOW two people added in 1 day.

GG

Lanceradvanced wrote:

(Side note here, KJA Novels about Dune -do not exist- as far as I'm concerned)

Truer words have never been spoken. I struggled through a few of them when they first came out. Went back to reread them a year or two ago and couldn't bring myself to do it.

From what I understand from back in the day, Space Marines were a port of the Colonial Marines from Aliens that were exaggerated and made more "awesome" and the Genestealers were taken directly from the Aliens themselves (Aliens actually steal parts of their host organism's genes while gestating). Later Tyranids were probably either just exagerated forms of Genestealers and mostly original, or partially inspired by Lizardmen (I have heard both from people around in the day). Later evolotion was simply parellel to what both 40k needed and what Fantasy needed, in the same way Wood Elves and Tau are similiar.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Squats, and Necrons are all directly inspired by Fantasy armies, High Elves, Dark Elves, Orks, and Dwarves respectively. Necrons are a mix of army Robots, Chaos Cyborgs, and Undead. I don't remember if Vampire Counts were around when the Necrons were originally.

In fact, Eldar used to be Space Elves, Dark Eldar, Space Dark Elves/Elf Pirates, Orks were Space Orks, Squats were Space Dwarves, and Necrons were an assortment of things. The Imperial Guard has little to no relation to Fantasy, and is more inspired by modern armies (used to be Imperial Army). Tau were invented for multiple reasons, I think just to try and get the Anime fan market for 40k. Chaos is obviously just a corrupted version of Imperials, much in the same way Chaos corrupts humans in Fantasy, so is half original, half ported from Fantasy.

As for Demons, I am a bit confused about. At first many people said it was a GW gamble to try and introduce more Fantasy aspects into 40k and have an army whose models could majority be used for both to help justify to people to buy a new army that didn't look very fun. However, that doesn't make sense because that would save players money, something GW seems to avoid like a Vegetarian avoids my refrigerator (that is until I hunt them down and butcher their tasty herbivore meat).

Indeed a lot of GW's line was inspired by Fantasy as to what they should include, but the influences on unit appearance were drawn from history and the big sellers of the 80's - the novels, movies, and TV shows that defined Sci-fi.

Daemons were indeed intended as an "either-or" army, though it wasn't much of a gamble. GW figured that there would be a decent market among existing Chaos players to add yet more scariness to their armies, and new players would just be drawn in by the badassness of Daemons. It didn't work as well as they hoped, but I would say it was nonetheless successful.

something GW seems to avoid like a Vegetarian avoids my refrigerator (that is until I hunt them down and butcher their tasty herbivore meat).

O.o I hate Vegans/Vegetarians too, but uh... little extreme?

Some additions...

1: Necrons - "Borrowed" from Dr Who Cybermen
2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper
4: The Chaos Gods - "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga

Just as a small point, there were other sci-fi movies out there at the time, with armored dudes in space...(with they had deplorable aim generally) I think folks are getting way too hung up on the "Marines" moniker that got stuck on the grunts in one movie that came out prolly almost -too- close to 40k to have much influence unless GW had a less than one year development cycle (for the tyranid/genestealer advocates remember, Aliens was a sequel after all)

As for Chaos.. that's pure Moorcock, down to the eight pointed star...

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

one word
SQUATS !!!!!

George Spiggott wrote:2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper

People keep saying these, but they still don't make any sense. Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Why I call threads like this exercises is ignorance is because you have statements like 'Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper.' How exactly, does a marine so strongly reflect a sardauker? That's why I called out 'Space Marines 40k - borrowed from Colonial Marines Aliens' as being so poorly thought out. You're literally down to 0 similarities there, aside from the fact their both called 'marines.' In a previous thread, one poster included comparing the Rhino to the APC as a rip-off, ignoring the fact in any given setting, an armored ground transport is probably going to share certain characteristics. Power armor is not a unique concept, elite, brutally trained shock troops are not either. If you tried to make a direct comparison, death world troops, like Catachans, would adhere most closely to what Sardaukar are supposed to be, not Space Marines.

Then there are the really silly things, like the OPs #10, which doesn't even make sense.

10: Raven Guard- "Borrowed" from Edgar Allen Poes, poem The Raven. ( I realize that there was really no sublety to this "borrowing" but still they could have been a bit more original)

I'd ask him to explain just what this was supposed to mean, but since he decided he was going to take his toys and go home, I guess he's focusing on Corax's final statement of 'Nevermore.' Which, actually, would be a reference or an homage, since it's the leader of the Ravenguard making a meta-reference to the most famous Raven in western literature.

generalgrog wrote:This is not meant as a criticism but more of a bit of education. We all know that GW(and a lot of sci fi in general) "borrows" ideas from other sources and makes it their own. So I thought it might be fun and educational to point out the instances of GW "borrowing" ideas.


5: The concept of the "Warp" and traveling in the warp- "Borrowed" from Dune.



GG

edited the title to bring clarity to the subject..GG

don't want to go into the quantum mechanics of it but guild navigators (over stage 3)"BEND" space and as such travel without moving ,all travel is instantaneous you just ARE where you want to go and AREN'T where you were

Bookwrack wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:2: Tyranids - "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers
3: Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper

People keep saying these, but they still don't make any sense. Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Let's see.

Rogue Trader - second imprint, 1987.

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids
Dune - written in 1965 - ok, maybe there is the possibility of a link, but nothing "aesthetic" as its a book
Starcraft - computer game - 1997 - 10 years after Rogue Trader

So, 2/3s of the "sources" were created 10 years after Rogue Trader, which included Space Marines and Tyranids.

The best you could do would be to argue that GW has changed its aesthetic to more closely mirror the movies and computer games since their release.

So, actually, its more like:

Myth (book, papyrus, stone tablets)
Tolkien (book)
Dune (book)
Moorcock (book)
Armour (Steakley) (1984?) (book)
Aliens (1986) (movie)
GW (Rogue Trader 1987) - the stealers in RT look nothing like Gieger's Aliens
Predator (1987) (movie)
Starship Troopers (1997) (movie)
Starcraft (1997) (computer game)

So where exactly is the "rip off"?

*edited to get my dates in order

GW ripped off:

English Soccer Hooligens: Orks
Judeo-Christianism: Daemons, Chaos, Inquisition
Folklore: Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Orks
Modern Armies: IG
E.T.: Tau
Robbie the Robot: Necrons
Elves (from Folklore): Craftworld Eldar
Craftworld Eldar: Dark Eldar
GW ORIGINAL: SPACE MARINES, LETS MAKE 20 CODEXES FOR EM!!! Cuz we didn't steal them from nobodies!

darkangels_rule wrote:don't want to go into the quantum mechanics of it but guild navigators (over stage 3)"BEND" space and as such travel without moving ,all travel is instantaneous you just ARE where you want to go and AREN'T where you were

Um, the -movies- may do it that way, the Dune novels don't... Hyperspace travel in the Dune universe existed -BEFORE- the Guild, which didn't exist till after the Butlerian Jihad, and BEFORE the Spice was discovered. It existed -after- the fall of the Guild in the Starvation and Scattering, and the Navigators were replaced with machines. It's not -explictily- stated in the books (though the non-cannonical Encyclopedia lays it out) but reading between the lines, the hyperdrive is a variation of the antigrav/shield Holtzman effect.

Navigators -steer- the ships, they don't move them...

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

Based on the 1959 novel, Space Marines are also mentioned in Heinlein's "Space Cadet",

Dune - written in 1965 - ok, maybe there is the possibility of a link, but nothing "aesthetic" as its a book

First off, books can convey a "look and feel" as well, though good description, plot and tone, and then there is the small matter of the 1984 David Lynch Movie...

Also insert in the sources...

Lensmen 1934-1948(books) - armored goons, galactic enforcers
Alien 1979(film) - dark future feel, xenomorphs
Star Wars 1977(film) Space Empire, with armored goons
Battlestar Galactica 1978(film) Space Empire, with armored goons
War against the Chtorr 1983-1993(books) Xeno-ecological invasion

Nerf_IG wrote:

Firstly, if you get a chance to read SST then by all means take it. In this political rant/novel the Mobile Infantry are power-armor wearing badasses who jump around on their jump jets like House of Pain could only dream of.

Also, Raven Guard are indeed a Poe reference. One of the quotes in the fluff ends with "darkness is there and nothing more". (It's a "nod" to "The Raven" for all you uncultured heathens out there)

Or their Primarch's last words being "Nevermore." They are an Homage not a copy or borrowing

Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

Study your literature before posting. They're based on the novel, not the movie. But you're not completely off target - the plastic Cadian minis are heavily influenced by the Soldiers in the movie. But the Space Marines are quite close to the description in the novel, which is a good 30 or so years older than 40K.

Are they really? It's been quite a while since I read ST, but IIRC, you never really get a good physical description of the suits, and in capability they're a whole lot more like souped up crisis suits than anything the marines have.

Review Space Marines from Rogue Trader, not the current fluff. iirc, the backpacks were all called jump packs or something similar. Crisis Suits in current fluff do more closely resemble SST novel suits than power armor.

GW does a good job of taking archetypes, plagarizing some ideas, and then making it all look just different enough to not be someone else's creation.

Marines are similar to a number of ideas in other sources, as are tyranids, necrons, and pretty much everything else in 40k. The Hammerhead is the closest to the hover tanks in Hammer's Slammers, etc.

And that's not just a complete coincidence? I presume of course you're comparing the rail gun to the powerguns.

Bookwrack wrote: Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Don’t be obtuse, there are plenty, being insectoid being psychically controlled by leader ‘bugs’ having ‘biological’ weapons being biologically adapted to a particular form of combat, I’m sure I could think of more.

Bookwrack wrote:Why I call threads like this exercises is ignorance is because you have statements like 'Space Marines - "Borrowed" from Dune (Sardaukar) & Starship Troopers and Rogue Trooper.' How exactly, does a marine so strongly reflect a sardauker?

Apart from being former convicts (as Space Marines were in RT) forming the elite of the Emperors armies? Space Marines are a blend of ideas from various sources, Dune is just one of them. Dune has literally dozens of themes that appear in 40k, Dune is a massive influence on 40k.

Cruentus wrote:Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

FAIL!

Cruentus wrote:
Starship Troopers - 1997 - about 10 years after space marines and tyranids

FAIL!

Hey now, he's been informed twice of his error. A fail it may be, but there's no need to be so outward about it after he's already been learned

Death watch was taken from star wars.
aswell as the name rynn.

Hmm....I'm going to have to read the original star ship troopers novel, to see the similarities. I actually liked the movie by the way.


GG

The Mobile Infantry in the novel is very different than in the movie. I hated the movie, partially because I wanted the MI to be running around in power armor with jump packs and dropping tac nukes, and partially because I couldn't stand Casper van Diem or Denise Richards.

George Spiggott wrote:

Bookwrack wrote: Name one way that Tyranids are anything like the ST bugs, aside from the fact that they're fighting humanity.

Don’t be obtuse, there are plenty, being insectoid being psychically controlled by leader ‘bugs’ having ‘biological’ weapons being biologically adapted to a particular form of combat, I’m sure I could think of more.

Than please do so because the examples you've given are almost uselessly vague, if not probably incorrect. For one thing, the bug warriors actually carried guns, and unlike the movie, the bugs were technologically advanced. Since you seem to be trying to draw a comparison to tyranids, the only common factor you really have is that there's a hive mind thing going on.

Mars.Techpriest wrote:2: Tyranids- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
3: Space Marines- "Borrowed" from Starship Troopers, Starcraft
5: The concept of navigators from Dune.
6: Tau-"Borrowed" from Roswell Greys.
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga (I think it's older then that actualy)

Um...Starship Troopers circa 1957.

Starcraft circa 1998.

40K circa 1987.

Starcraft didn't have much to do with Space Marines, but it's a pretty simple leap to assume that Starship Troopers did, especially since Avalon Hill had a Starship Troopers board game out at the time that 40K was created.

Bookwrack wrote:Than please do so because the examples you've given are almost uselessly vague, if not probably incorrect. For one thing, the bug warriors actually carried guns, and unlike the movie, the bugs were technologically advanced. Since you seem to be trying to draw a comparison to Tyranids, the only common factor you really have is that there's a hive mind thing going on.

Uselessly vague? There are clear parallels that you are simply ignoring, they're never going to be clear and in your face for obvious legal reasons (Moorcock aside) and because a novel has no distinct imagery (being a novel). How does actually carrying guns change anything? So did Tyranids until 3rd edition (they had boltguns in RT).

You're really stretching trying to prove these 'parallels.' Hive-minded aliens are not unique, and given the ST's arachnids were (iirc) described as nightmare spiders with guns, you're attempt to link the two is getting weaker and weaker.

You're just plain wrong about a novel having no distinct imagery. That's a style choice on the part of the author, and Heinlein didn't dwell much on physical appearances in that book. However what he did describe for both power armor, and the arachnids bears very little
resemblance to 40k. You can keep trying to make the stretch, but you've got very little to work with.

The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

Someone referenced John Steakley's Armor above, and that just doesn't work at all. Humans fighting bug-aliens is a common trope in sci-fi. Power armor too is a common trope, and in that book is unlike anything fielded in 40k (maybe it'd be the equivalent of a nuclear powered wraithlord). People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them. Just because something came before 40K doesn't mean GW borrowed from it.

thank you

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

They were called squats, they were around in 2nd edition.

Bookwrack wrote:The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them. Just because something came before 40K doesn't mean GW borrowed from it.

If only there was something else linking them like the both have extended lives are genetically different to normal humans or that they see reality differently. Oh wait! There are too many parallels with Dune for it to be coincidental.

Kreedos wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well as I've been looking at warhammer fantasy I realize almost every single race is just a 'space' version of a fantasy army. Undead=necrons, so on and so forth. I almost think we should do a thread to see where the fantasy armies came from, as they came before 40k, right?

What complete nonsense. Where are the Space Dwarves, hmmmm?

They were called squats, they were around in 2nd edition.

Thank you!



I had never heard of Squats before and certainly wasn't making a fairly obvious joke.


You've enlightened my life, Kreedos, and for that I'll be eternally thankful.

Bookwrack wrote:You're just plain wrong about a novel having no distinct imagery. That's a style choice on the part of the author, and Heinlein didn't dwell much on physical appearances in that book. However what he did describe for both power armor, and the arachnids bears very little
resemblance to 40k. You can keep trying to make the stretch, but you've got very little to work with.

The problem with topics like these is people always get confused by what's just thematic coincidence, and what is actual inspiration or deliberate reference. It would be very hard to make a robotic space skeleton that did not make people think of the t-800, so they had fun with Terminator references.

Exactly.

And if you read my original post, I mentioned Starship Troopers as the movie version. I am well aware of the book (I liked it), but as mentioned, there is no really distinct imagery of the suits.

I also had the Starship Troopers game from Avalon Hill way back in the day, and those "Troopers" looked like the 50's era spacemen with dome helmets. Hardly "Space Marine".

Having read Armour, and Starship Troopers, I formed an idea of what I thought they looked like. And if I were to describe what I thought they looked like, everyone else in this thread would probably describe them differently.

And my main point is that is it possible that GW was influenced by the aesthetic of the movies prior to '87 and after? Sure. Is that a "rip-off"? No. Do Nids look exactly like gieger's aliens? No. Do the starship troopers (movie) bugs look like Nids? Maybe. Did they influence each other? Likely.

This is a chicken and egg argument. For every example that claims to prove how GW ripped something off (or paid Homage - Poe and Ravenguard, Lion'el Johnson and Dark Angel), there are examples that clearly show there was nothing to actually rip off (i.e. vague descriptions of the suits in starship troopers). If someone at GW read the original Starship Troopers, then sculpted the RT-era Marines based on what he/she thought they looked like, then its at best derivative. If GW changes their sculpts due to the influence of Star Wars, then again, derivative, but not a rip-off.

Just about everything in Sci-fi and Fantasy is derivative of earlier works. I doubt there is one company out there that produces anything "original".

*edited for clarity and absolutes

Bookwrack wrote:People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them.

Despite my bashing on folks before over the -steer the ship- vs -move the ship- issues between the the Dune Movie and the Dune Novels, the Navigator thing is a reasonably solid homage at the least..

Just to go through point by point.. from the Novel, and RT

It's not just a job description, Navigators in both books are a -race- of human mutants, that have -no other existance- all they -ever- do is steer ships around.

The Navigational ability is psi based, though it differs modestly in nature (Guild Navigator are precogs, Imperial Navigators are clairvoyant), this is not a common trope in Sci fi, the only major case I can think of, being David Brin, where in the Uplift books with 5 diffrent levels of hyperspace, and psi turned up to 11, it makes the Warp seem tame at times (though you can get though hyperspace without psi, some alien alliances use psi's who warp reality as hyperdrives) EDIT, McCaffery's Pegasus books feature psi powered space travel as well, but it's more of the psi staying home, and telporting the ship in that case..

The physical mutations described are similar - spindly bodies, webbed hands and feet, I seem to have worn out my copy of Dune Messiah, or I'd be more explicit..

The major point of diffrence of course is that the Navigators in RT don't need the Spice, over time 40k has drifted away from the homage...

Just on one small point, there is -one little bit- of Dune, in this case, the movie, and not the book where the Saurdakar -do- resemble the Space Marines, in those brief shots in the intial and final battles, you see the imperial armored goons in action.

metallifan wrote:Indeed a lot of GW's line was inspired by Fantasy as to what they should include, but the influences on unit appearance were drawn from history and the big sellers of the 80's - the novels, movies, and TV shows that defined Sci-fi.

Daemons were indeed intended as an "either-or" army, though it wasn't much of a gamble. GW figured that there would be a decent market among existing Chaos players to add yet more scariness to their armies, and new players would just be drawn in by the badassness of Daemons. It didn't work as well as they hoped, but I would say it was nonetheless successful.

something GW seems to avoid like a Vegetarian avoids my refrigerator (that is until I hunt them down and butcher their tasty herbivore meat).

O.o I hate Vegans/Vegetarians too, but uh... little extreme?

Don't knock it until you try it.

Hive World = Trantor, from Asimov's Foundation saga. The Imperial capital that covers the surface of the planet.

Deathworlds - where the fauna AND flora are inimical to human life and colonists adapted to become better fighters (old enough to walk, old enough to learn how to shoot) came from Harry Harrison's 'Deathworld" novels (1-3, written pre-1987).

Homage is just French for Lobster.


No, wait, that's Homard. Homage is French for "rip off".

Hmm everybody seems to have missed the Chronicles of Castle Brass by Micheal Moorcock with the Emperor of Gran Bretan on his technologically advanced throne and his armoured soldiers. Getting lost in the warp is probably based upon Joe Haldeman's Forever War. Both are highly recommended.

I could have sworn the Novel Armour was written in the seventies ; ah well anyway if anything read it it has way more to do with the feel of 40k than some of the novels themselves.


The books are all grim dark future and dudes in nuclear power armour fighting aliens.

The silliest thing about this entire argument is that people seem to be thinking that it's actually possible to create something without it having been influenced by things that came before it. You give me time and I'll show you how just about any game or book or movie was inspired by something that came before it. Games are an industry. It's about creativity but it's also about sellinbg product, it's much easier to sell things that are in some way familiar to your audience.

Yes 40k was influenced by Dune, some of the early designers have said as much. Star Wars was influenced by many movies and stories before it, it's overall package was unique but it's elements were not. Same thing with Rogue Trader, it was original in total but influenced largely by books more than movies because of when it was written, there simply weren't alot of good sci-fi movies to draw from. It has since pulled in influences from popular culture, sometimes with subtletly, often with a tongue in cheek wink wink.
Noone should argue that Sly Marbo is anything other than Rambo ported in. Kruellagh the Vile is a terrible homage to Cruella de Ville, but sometimes that's how it goes.

Since 2nd Edition Guard armies have been copies of or references to historical armies. Catachans are Vietnam era Americans, Praetorians are Zulu war era English, Valhallans are World War Two era Russians, etc. Are these rip-offs or did the designers draw inspiration from history?
Clearly they drew inspiration from history, but so have the designers of other games. Just some examples: Imperial Trenchers in Warzone are British World War One infantry, there are Highlanders in Infinity, Capitol Free Marines in Warzone were very similar to Catachans in being Vietnam era Americans. Since they came after Catachans were they a rip-off?

But for a moment consider other games, would White Wolf have ever published Vampire: The Masquerade before Anne Rice wrote Interview with a Vampire? I'd wager not, and while not set in her world it was certainly strongly influenced by it. Is it then a rip-off?

The Dark Angels were inspired by a poem 'Dark Angel' written by a Lionel Johnson. My god they even ripped-off poems, those bastards

just the mad ramblings of someone who was in high school when Rogue Trader came out.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:People like harping on 'oh, Dune Navigators and 40K Navigators!' despite the fact that since it's their job to 'navigate' the ship (in completely different ways) that's just about the most sensible name for them.

Despite my bashing on folks before over the -steer the ship- vs -move the ship- issues between the the Dune Movie and the Dune Novels, the Navigator thing is a reasonably solid homage at the least..

Just to go through point by point.. from the Novel, and RT

It's not just a job description, Navigators in both books are a -race- of human mutants, that have -no other existance- all they -ever- do is steer ships around.

The Navigational ability is psi based, though it differs modestly in nature (Guild Navigator are precogs, Imperial Navigators are clairvoyant), this is not a common trope in Sci fi, the only major case I can think of, being David Brin, where in the Uplift books with 5 diffrent levels of hyperspace, and psi turned up to 11, it makes the Warp seem tame at times (though you can get though hyperspace without psi, some alien alliances use psi's who warp reality as hyperdrives) EDIT, McCaffery's Pegasus books feature psi powered space travel as well, but it's more of the psi staying home, and telporting the ship in that case..

The physical mutations described are similar - spindly bodies, webbed hands and feet, I seem to have worn out my copy of Dune Messiah, or I'd be more explicit..

The major point of diffrence of course is that the Navigators in RT don't need the Spice, over time 40k has drifted away from the homage...

Just on one small point, there is -one little bit- of Dune, in this case, the movie, and not the book where the Saurdakar -do- resemble the Space Marines, in those brief shots in the intial and final battles, you see the imperial armored goons in action.

The Dune navigators resemble the old 40k navigators found in the vaults in Wolfblade. As they age they become less and less human, so yes there is a major similarity there. Big difference is the spice, I guess.

Make way, younguns ! Old fart coming through !

WARNING :
Years before even Rogue Trader, I was a player of a game called Traveller for which, under license, Citadel produced a range of 15mm figs (see here for examples : http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Traveller_-_Collectors_Guide

One aspect of this RPG, was the possibility of a career path as a Marine (though more a space faring USMC than Adeptus Astartes.) The highest level of armour for a Traveller Imperial Marine (short of the legenday Personal Black Globe) was Battledress ( see here for a brief description : http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_Dress) for which Citadel also produced miniatures (see first link).

Whilst perusing those miniatures, take note of the weapons, not so much the look as the names and the weapon types they imply.

An intermediary stage can be seen here : http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Spacefarers_25mm, produced for the Spacefarers game, an early forerunner to RT, though I'm sure you can all see the Traveller design influences on the Power Armour figures.

Not too long later, Citadel started producing the first 28mm miniatures of Power Armour , many of which feature in the Original RT rulebook, the clearest being the photo of a rank of Marines in front of a very early Land raider.

Given the capabilities of the Traveller Battledress, and the weapons it allowed a player to use, GW simply "hyper evolved" the wearers to make the suits and wearers fit their own Space Marine agenda.

Space Marines nicked from Aliens USCMC ? Nope, afraid not.
Space Marines = Starship Troopers Grunts ? Sadly, no.

The Adeptus Astartes are, I'm both happy and sad to conclude, the result of GW thinking they could provide a better format of a system they were sub-contracted to reproduce in miniature for another company's gaming system.

Of course, that system also had rules for combat, but Traveller was ( and AFAIK still is, an RPG ) so I think it's also reasonable to assume that GW saw an opportunity to embark on a tabletop game using their own version of Battledress as one of their mainstays.

Of course, there is always the possibility that I'm wrong, and if Rick Priestley or his cohorts want to set me straight then I'm more than willing to stand corrected, but as a player of Traveller for about eight years before the spawning of RT, I am very familiar with the equipment.

ended, I now return you to your normal channels !

edited to include intermediate stage reference.

Thanks for the information. Checking out Traveller I noticed that it's under the GURPS name and license which I've just started to play. And this "Recently many people have noted the remarkable resemblance between the Traveller universe and the one shown in the TV series Firefly." makes me want to convince my gaming group to quit our current GURPS with the UN-in-space campaign and just play Traveller. Although we do get cyborgs in our game...hmm...

Does anyone else note the similarities between the Necron Tomb Spyder and that floaty thing that Flushes Neo in Matrix 1?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:
Thanks for the information. Checking out Traveller I noticed that it's under the GURPS name and license which I've just started to play. And this "Recently many people have noted the remarkable resemblance between the Traveller universe and the one shown in the TV series Firefly." makes me want to convince my gaming group to quit our current GURPS with the UN-in-space campaign and just play Traveller. Although we do get cyborgs in our game...hmm...

One of the best things for me about what is now called Classic Traveller was the ability as a GM to bring almost anything into the game, as long as you could generate a good enough design, stats and reason for it ( beyond the "I'm GM so I'm GOD excuse).
Want the Serenity (from Firefly) ? Draw up the deckplans, run through the Starship Design checklist, cost it up and away you go.
Want Cyborgs ? Find a high TL world, a mad doc, a nutty engineer and Bob's your mother's (half-robot) brother !
ANYTHING was possible with the right tools and experience as a GM, hell my buddies & I even dragged RT vehicles over by converting the stats in the RT rulebook ! ( In fact, IIRC one of them even had the weapons and bike from Judge Dredd as an excuse to use the Citadel JD minis !)

It's been over a decade since my last game tho, so I'm not quite sure where the franchise is at now !

Back on topic tho, as someone with personal experience to the Traveller "REALM", do you see the evolution of Astartes Power Armour from Battledress, or is it just the senile ravings of an aging gamer ?

@Crazy Carnifex : True, there is a similarity, but I suspect WH40K pre-dates even the conceptual draft of The Matrix. Indeed, it's possible that a pair of Mega-Geeks (and I mean no disrespect by that) like the W. Brothers could easily be 40K players.

"Back on topic tho, as someone with personal experience to the Traveller "REALM", do you see the evolution of Astartes Power Armour from Battledress, or is it just the senile ravings of an aging gamer ?"

To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel, who probably just got the idea from knights and samurai, etc and updated it. That's actually one of the main reasons I dislike the movie because it would've been so much better with power armored space marines.

Beerforthebeergod wrote:To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel...

Having not read the novel, I can neither confirm or refute this possibility.

My post was mainly to show the likelyhood that GW could have been expanding on the concept behind a mini range they were contracted to produce for another games system (albeit RPG) that already had something technically akin to Power Armour, as well as highlighting the possible evolution of the Power Armoured miniatures produced today.

It is indeed a very common maxim that there is very little originality left, only varieties of interpretation and expression, so in that sense 90% of stuff is copied from, or at the very least inspired by, something else, and not just by Games Workshop.

Returning to your original point, about the ST novel, I would like to ask two questions of those who HAVE read it :

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:To be honest I think everyone got the idea from Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel

The idea predates Heinlein, though, the Lensmen series features a variety of space armors, usually mounting beam weapony, defensive shields against the same and inertialess drives, in the book "First Lensmen" various suits are described for use in specific envirments, an extra insuated and heated suit for pluto, and another purpose built suit for meeting with the Rigelians, who a) live under a hot blue sun, and b) have no concept of noise reduction, since they don't have a sense of hearing. In the next book the hero has a suit constructed for his solo assault on the Boskonian HQ, during the -testing- of which, he takes over 20k rounds from a heavy machine rifle without damage, before stopping when the rifle overheats...

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

1) No,
2) Terminator armor... In Individual Drop Pods... With Jumpacks.. and Obliterator Weapons, and Tac Nukes.. oh, and Grenades..If nothing else, read the first chapter...

1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

Beerforthebeergod wrote:1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

In answer to the first, I haven't read the novel in awhile but I do not believe they were genetically manipulated. The standard armor was a powered exoskeleton that while not as big as SM armor provided the same function.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Beerforthebeergod wrote:1) Were the "Space Marine" forces (referred to in the film as the Mobile Infantry IIRC) genetically enhanced in any way ?
2) What, in 40K terms, was the STANDARD issue armour for those troops ?

In answer to the first, I haven't read the novel in awhile but I do not believe they were genetically manipulated. The standard armor was a powered exoskeleton that while not as big as SM armor provided the same function.

1) No, in the film they were just recruits, in the book they went through several years of Training IIRC, but still had no enhancements
2) Flak Armour, the grunts in those movies are just your average guardsmen.

I believe the Power Armour in the book was actually bigger, it had big missile racks and two flamerthrowers, jump jets and could enter atmospheres with out drop pods.

Oh okay got confused is all.

Dark Angels are based off this gay poet!

nickt2245 wrote:Dark Angels are based off this gay poet!

/facepalm

generalgrog wrote:
9: The term Nurgle- "Borrowed" from the Elric Saga

Nurgle comes from Nurgal, the Babylonian god of both pestilence and war.