1) Luke skywalker and other Jedi get burnt at the stake for psker witchraft.
2) Spaz Marines drop pod into Coruscant, utterly wrecking it. (Orbital bombardment fun too.)
3) Guard Stormtroopers make a mess of Stormtroopers.
4) 40k navy pawns Navy throught sheer BIGNESS.
5) All aleins (and pretty much all humans) are wiped out as either xenos or xeno-lovers.
A Happy ending for all.
P.S. Han Solo gets into dept from a Dark Eldar Kabal. 1000000 times worse than Jabba the Hutt.
Emperors Faithful wrote:40k universe Vs Star Wars. (At the end of no.6).
1) Luke skywalker and other Jedi get burnt at the stake for psker witchraft.
2) Spaz Marines drop pod into Coruscant, utterly wrecking it. (Orbital bombardment fun too.)
3) Guard Stormtroopers make a mess of Stormtroopers.
4) 40k navy pawns Navy throught sheer BIGNESS.
5) All aleins (and pretty much all humans) are wiped out as either xenos or xeno-lovers.
A Happy ending for all.
P.S. Han Solo gets into dept from a Dark Eldar Kabal. 1000000 times worse than Jabba the Hutt.
****Extermination of the Jedi If stormtroopers can do it terminators can do it, with style. ****Ctan battle fleet appears and gets wiped out by Death Star (tee hee).
****40K Navy vs. Imperial Navy equals epic battle coolness and eventual draw.
****the above battle creates a hole in space and time, releasing Chuck Norris, Robot Abraham Lincoln, Godzilla, and Batman...
Emperors Faithful wrote:40k universe Vs Star Wars. (At the end of no.6).
1) Luke skywalker and other Jedi get burnt at the stake for psker witchraft.
2) Spaz Marines drop pod into Coruscant, utterly wrecking it. (Orbital bombardment fun too.)
3) Guard Stormtroopers make a mess of Stormtroopers.
4) 40k navy pawns Navy throught sheer BIGNESS.
5) All aleins (and pretty much all humans) are wiped out as either xenos or xeno-lovers.
A Happy ending for all.
P.S. Han Solo gets into dept from a Dark Eldar Kabal. 1000000 times worse than Jabba the Hutt.
****Extermination of the Jedi If stormtroopers can do it terminators can do it, with style. ****Ctan battle fleet appears and gets wiped out by Death Star (tee hee).
****40K Navy vs. Imperial Navy equals epic battle coolness and eventual draw.
****the above battle creates a hole in space and time, releasing Chuck Norris, Robot Abraham Lincoln, Godzilla, and Batman...
No, not the ultimate showdown!
Also, the Imperial Navy (40k) would WRECK the Imperial Navyt (Star Wars). It's not even a contest.
Comparing a sci fi fantasy universe to a universe so immersed in bloodshed, and mindless violence where every race has planet killers, galaxy destroying, star eating weapons, and then saying the sci fi fantasy universe would lose is like saying a 10 year old could beat up a cage fighter.
40K Imperium has nothing comparable to a death star. Sorry.
I beg to differ, well not imperium but come on. Abbadon's flagship can destroy PLANETS! Also death star got destroyed by an annoying little man in a silly shaped spacy ship so I reckon a strikecruiser could EASILY do it or a smurf battle barge.
Also yea, 40K would pwn ass! Only the good Star Wars guys left, bad guys dead and most jedi also dead so it's just a matter of mopping up the goey mess on the floor where chooie used to be...
Rebels mistake white scars as stormtroopers and stare in amazement as there Armour stops there rounds and stare in even more amazement when the white scars actually manage to hit them!
Okay, first off, is this all of 40k versus Star Wars, or the Empire versus the Imperium?
If it's all of 40k, lolorks, it's over.
If it's Empire versus Imperium do both sides still have to deal with hostile outside forces? If they don't do they still have to deal with internal corruption?
If the first is true the Imperium could eventually lose.(With things like orks and tyranids ramming up against them.) If the first wasn't true, but the second was true, the Empire wouldn't stand a chance. (The rebellion killed them without any outside help, chaos influence would completely destroy them.)
If neither has to worry about such things, I think I'd still give this one to the Imperium. Boarding actions would take care of the Deathstar and the largest classes of Star Destroyer. The rest would easily be crushed by the massive Imperial ships. Land actions would be no contest, the Empire is outclassed in every possible way.
Both factions require an emperor to continue remaining intact, but the Emperor of Man is a lot harder to take down, with all of Terra's fortifications. Emperor Palpatine has a habit of running around inspecting his Death Stars, and bringing his enemies into his room, I don't think he'd last that long.
In terms of mystical power, Palpatine and Vader are outdone by the legions of psykers under the Imperium's command.
40K Imperium has nothing comparable to a death star. Sorry.
I beg to differ, well not imperium but come on. Abbadon's flagship can destroy PLANETS! Also death star got destroyed by an annoying little man in a silly shaped spacy ship so I reckon a strikecruiser could EASILY do it or a smurf battle barge.
Also yea, 40K would pwn ass! Only the good Star Wars guys left, bad guys dead and most jedi also dead so it's just a matter of mopping up the goey mess on the floor where chooie used to be...
over several hours. Death Star blew up Alderan in less than a second. Plus it was zapping cruisers with ease in ROTJ.
Hah hah my geekness beats your geekness.
Space: Empire> Imperium
On the ground: Imperium > Empire.
With boarding actions, the Imperium can put its superior infantry to work in space as well, though.
Something the size of the Death Star, especially, would be vulnerable to such an attack. Look at what Luke and Obi were able to accomplish, imagine if they were space marines or temple assassins.
You have to be within a reasonable distance to teleport. Zsap Zsap no ships to get that close. Zsap Zsap! (TM)
Plus its shielded. Teleport doesn't work through shields. They also don't seem to have aproblem building ships unlike the Imperium. Having said that nothing in the movies about a capital ship going off and taking out an entire enemy fleet, which has occurred more than once in 40K land. Ram the Death Star with a cruiser, self destruct said cruiser and its OHCRAPIHOPETHEMPERORWASNTONTHEDEATHSTAR AGAIN time.
On the flip side they had 2MM clones in clone wars. Even multiplying that factor by 100 is nothing compared to the Imperium. heck thats only 1 large Valhallan regiment (new IG codex). I'll note the Sabbat Crusade had over 1Bn troops (from Sabbat Campaign book). Imperium transport capacity is unmatched by anything in the Empire.
Just think what the AM would do if they came across AT-ATs.
The Imperium could do more than just run up and try to teleport.
The Empire evidently lets ships in that they catch with the tractor beam without too much security. How about a few Callidus assassins? They'd pretty much cripple the Death Star all by themselves, unless maybe Vader or Palpatine was aboard.
Also, as you said, the Imperium can levy a huge amount of ships; why not go in for an attack, while smaller ships drop pod/teleport/shuttle their troops in? You could throw termies on the surface of the Death Star, and they'd chainfist their way in.
Don't forget, the rebel fighters were able to get through the defense network on account of their size, and they weren't any smaller than a drop pod.
That much surface area is pretty much going to be impossible to defend simultaneously, when you talk about a ground invasion. And it really would be a ground invasion, the Death Star is huge. It probably has the population of a small country.
(I suppose it's also unknown whether or not the deflector shields in Star Wars could stop teleporting through the warp, but I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, simply because imaginary fights suck when you try and exploit subtle technological loopholes like that.)
Ultimately, boardings and rapid invasions are a huge part of the Imperium's combat potential; it's the reason Space Marine exist in the first place. I don't think the Death Star can really stand up to the Imperium in that regard, and I doubt anyone in the galaxy had the manpower or quality of infantry to attempt something like that in Star Wars.
The Imperium has no way to detect travel in hyperspace. Starwars has superior super-weapons, able to destroy Terra, (if not the entire sol system) with little recorse avaliable to the Imperium.
W/O superweapons, the Imperium has larger, more powerful base troops & ships.
Perhaps Star Wars Travel is like the warp,
cept cleaner and less dangerous? If Imperium invaded the Star Wars universe they would benefit too. If Star Wars had a go at 40k, suddenly THEIR ships would be in peril.
Also, I think that if, AT ANY POINT, there was close combat involved, then Imperium would win. The only thing Star Wars has that gets even close is a Jedi. And how many of those are left? (evil grin)
Also, Titans. AT-AT Vs Emperor Class Titan = AT-AT breaking down and crapping itself.
People keep saying that clone troopers are better than space marines. What the hell?There are over one thousand chapters with 1000 men each.And that is only one imperial organization. And besides 1000 x 1000=1000000 men! Plus Imperial guardsmen are numbering billions!That could over power rebels any day!
Mars.Techpriest wrote:The Imperium has no way to detect travel in hyperspace.
The Empire has no way to detect travel in the Warp either, though.
Starwars has superior super-weapons, able to destroy Terra, (if not the entire sol system) with little recorse avaliable to the Imperium.
What do you mean by "Star Wars"?
The Empire only had the Death Star, and a few other, crappier ones. Death Star 2 was never even finished.
There are a lot more existing in the Star Wars universe, but who cares. If it's up against the 40k universe, who cares if Terra's destroyed? You don't need the Astronomicon when the gods of the Warp are guiding you. (Hell, Terra would probably become a daemon world anyways, so good luck killing that.)
Not to mention, the orks are more powerful than the Imperium anyways, and the tyranids and necrons are definitely up there. I don't see how Star Wars could win if they were up against all of those forces.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net One of several "Sci-Fi Vs Debates" forums that has already covered this subject in in-depth, scientific and technical detail. Check out the "Grand 40k Sticky" at the top of the "Other Sci-Fi" sub-forum, which has at least FIVE major threads on this very subject.
The typical framework for debate is the M41 Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire at it's height (usually post-Yavin, so no Death Star but the Executor's are coming into service).
Long story short:
-Strategic initiative lies with the GE. With hyperdrive, capital ships can cross a galaxy in a few weeks... tops. Combine that with reliable instantaneous interstellar comms and the Empire can concentrate its forces for local superiority at almost every occasion.
-Production capacity lies with the GE. The shear quantity of material that went into producing the Death Star and Death Star II is something like tens of thousands of Star Destroyers EACH. Both of which were built in secret without a serious impact on the galaxy's GDP (unlike the Soviet Union's military in the Cold War).
-Capital ship firepower lies with the GE. Thanks to astrophysicist Curtis Saxton writing the ICS, Star Wars capital ships have been blessed with GT to TT (teraton) levels of firepower, when most major sci-fi shows/races are in the kT to MT range. I think 40k is low GT at best.
-The ground capabilities of the Imperium aren't very relevant. Once SW ships are parked in orbit, any concentrated ground forces can be reduced from space and the Stormtroopers et al. only have to mop up.
Any other conclusion is either poorly researched or simply ridiculous 40k fanboi spank, and I say that as probably a bigger 40k fan than SW fan. I like to think that I'm rational and mature enough to concede when one of my "pet" universes is outmatched. For example, Babylon 5 and to a lesser extent Renegade Legion (remember that game? I love that universe) are both pretty low on the totem pole of sci-fi phallus-waving.
EDIT: Oh, and if you get off on this sort of "my universe can beat up your universe" thing, just read Iain M. Banks' Culture novels and become a Culture fanboi, since they are pretty much at the top of the food chain. Them and races like the Xeelee.
Star Wars guys can't fight. They're a bunch of old guys who can pull a couple of magic tricks.I mean they can kill some robots but they cant kill 1000000 space marines or 100000000000 tyranids.
If a bunch of stormtroopers couldn't hold up against a bunch of 3 foot teddy bears waving sticks,how well do you think they would do against a mob of Orkz..especialy considering the stormtroopers are worse shots.
Noble713 wrote:The typical framework for debate is the M41 Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire at it's height (usually post-Yavin, so no Death Star but the Executor's are coming into service).
So Palpatine's already dead? That's no fun. Half the point is having two Emperors go at it.
-Strategic initiative lies with the GE. With hyperdrive, capital ships can cross a galaxy in a few weeks... tops. Combine that with reliable instantaneous interstellar comms and the Empire can concentrate its forces for local superiority at almost every occasion.
True, that's the Empire's biggest advantage. The Imperium would have to go on the offensive.
On the other hand, ships in Star Wars only ever engage each other at close range. That puts a huge tactical advantage with the Imperium.
(I'm sure there's some counter-argument about them wanting to engage each other at clase range or similar nonsense, but I take it for what it is. They're shown engaging in close range in the movies.)
-Production capacity lies with the GE. The shear quantity of material that went into producing the Death Star and Death Star II is something like tens of thousands of Star Destroyers EACH. Both of which were built in secret without a serious impact on the galaxy's GDP (unlike the Soviet Union's military in the Cold War).
How do you know it didn't have a serious impact on the galaxy's GDP?
-Capital ship firepower lies with the GE. Thanks to astrophysicist Curtis Saxton writing the ICS, Star Wars capital ships have been blessed with GT to TT (teraton) levels of firepower, when most major sci-fi shows/races are in the kT to MT range. I think 40k is low GT at best.
Lances can destroy continents. I've heard them thrown in the Petaton range.
-The ground capabilities of the Imperium aren't very relevant. Once SW ships are parked in orbit, any concentrated ground forces can be reduced from space and the Stormtroopers et al. only have to mop up.
They're relevant for the Imperium's boardings and invasions. Why would the Imperium sit there and let themselves be bombarded?
Any other conclusion is either poorly researched or simply ridiculous 40k fanboi spank, and I say that as probably a bigger 40k fan than SW fan. I like to think that I'm rational and mature enough to concede when one of my "pet" universes is outmatched. For example, Babylon 5 and to a lesser extent Renegade Legion (remember that game? I love that universe) are both pretty low on the totem pole of sci-fi phallus-waving.
Maybe you should drink a glass of cool water and sit down? Of course power has nothing to do with how well it's made. And I like Star Wars too, if you only count the actual movies, and not the DBZ sillyness that the books aparently contain.
Seriously though, I think I underestimated the Empire's industrial capacity and quality of ships.
So far it looks like:
Empire..............................Imperium
Very Powerful Ships...........Very Powerful Ships
Very Fast..........................Very Slow
Very Short Ranged.............Very Long Range
More Productive Capacity...Less Productive Capacity
Less Internal Loyalty..........More Internal Loyalty
If the ships are assumed to be equal, it's likely a matter of the Empire's production versus their control over that production. That's probably not going to be something that's particularly quantifiable.
If the ships are several magnitudes away from equal, one side is going to blow the other away. I'm still leaning towards the Imperium as having the more powerful ships, from the descriptions of the lance batteries being used against planets.
I don't think you can really compare the production capacity of the Imperium vs the Empire. I am also equally unimpressed with the Stormtrooper marksmanship program, and how they all seem to die instantly to a single lasbolt.
I also seem to recall a .gif of a star destroyer on a black background. Over a few seconds, a 40k Imperial Battleship floats up behind it. The star destroyer is about the size of one of it's medium gun turrets. If that is the actual scale, any one of the segmentum battlefleets could probably just steamroll over anything the Empire could hope to throw up in defense on their way to turn Coruscant to a blasted wasteland. Those fleets fight of Tyranid hive fleets with millions of ships. Wow.
I'd have to give the space fight to the empire hands down. Considering the fact that Star Wars ships are much smaller in comparison to 40k ships, I'd go ahead and say that the Imperium would find it difficult, if not impossible to bring any sort of weaponry to bear against them.
PS: The secret answer is that this is a nerdfight over whose fictional space dad can beat up whoever elses fictional space dad. I choose to like Warhams more. It has less incestuous undertones.
chaos0xomega wrote:I'd have to give the space fight to the empire hands down. Considering the fact that Star Wars ships are much smaller in comparison to 40k ships, I'd go ahead and say that the Imperium would find it difficult, if not impossible to bring any sort of weaponry to bear against them.
Once again, grots.
Just look at what the ewoks did. It would be a massacre!
Imperial ships are huge. As in, their battleships are a few dozen kilometres long (according to sources). Not to mention the fact that a single lance blast would utterly destroy an Imperial Star Destroyer.
So as long as they can throw up enough firepower to blanket the general vincinity of space the opposing fleet happens to be in, they should easily wipeout anything not inordinately powerful and rare, like some of the Super Star Destroyers and maybe a completed Deathstar. Which is, funnily enough, exactly what they seem to base their tactics on.
I don't think even the Big'uns would take those hits very well though.
On the other hand, how necessary are they to maintaining control of their empire? They seem to use fear as their primary motivator. Without their military present they might end up in trouble...
I've read that too. That generally speaking, most conflicts are ended just by the sight of Star Destroyer popping in and cowing a world into submission. Which is supposedly the reason that old Empie Lightninghands had such a thing for big flashy superweapons like the Death Stars and Super Star Destroyers. I've read about some gigantor Star Destroyer in one of those old "Vehicles of Star Wars" books called the Eclipse that would terrify a planet completely out of it's mind. Looks cool, but the thing was destroyed by a Warp...ur, Force Storm or some such business.
Edir: So I think that if it were a war of conquest, then you wouldn't really see widescale resistance from the Empire so much as you would see fewer major skirmishes around particular vital points, if the Empire ever figured out the effective range and speed of warp travel to predict where would be the best places to put up a fight. The Imperium has a lot of ships too.
deadratman wrote:People keep saying that clone troopers are better than space marines. What the hell?There are over one thousand chapters with 1000 men each.And that is only one imperial organization. And besides 1000 x 1000=1000000 men! Plus Imperial guardsmen are numbering billions!That could over power rebels any day!
The clones, even just your basic footslogging meatshield grunt clone variant, went through training on par--if not better-- than the training the Space Marines recieve.
The only difference is that the clones are genetically modified to rapidly age and attain maturity fast. Add in flash learning, etc and it gives an interesting advantage to the Republic(because we're NOT talking about Empire v. Imperium if we're talking about the Grand Army of the Republic. They died out by, according to alot of the background and barring a few cases like some of the Commandos and ARCs who recieved a 'cure' later on, the time the Death Star was being built) in that they can have fully trained troopers built up, in their MILLIONS, within a year.
It takes DECADES to get a Space Marine ready, and months for the basic training for a Guardsman. A Clone Commando, ARC Trooper, Imperial Marine, etc could be flashtrained with their skills and the combat experience of the host template(in this case, we'd be talking about Jango Fett. One of the few survivors of a battle against a legion of Jedi. Hard enough for you?) within a year.
Bear in mind, that even goes into vehicle crews, artillery crews, etc. Which the Imperium has to dedicate even MORE time training.
Assuming we're using Movie Marines, one Space Marine is more than a match for a dozen or more clones in open battle. Look how fast clones die in the movies; their armour is pretty much useless.
Space Marines can make a dent in a Rhino's armour. I'm pretty sure they could pulverise a clone.
And you'd do well to take notice of the ones from the Airborne particularly(E3, the guys with the orange shoulderflashes that Kenobi had with him) or the 41st Elite(the swamp troopers that Yoda had with him), who shredded apart much more powerful and numerically superior armies.
But if you want a real comparison between Marines and something else, it'd have to be the ARCs or the Commandos. And the Commandos carry more than enough kit to bring down starships, pretty sure a SM wouldn't be too hard for 'em.
They aren't a complete copy. Mostly skills, training, and physical capabilities. All sorts of things like personal initiative and intelligence are borked with to make different classes of soldiers. How that matches up to how ludicrously idiosyncratic Space Marines tend to be portrayed as, I don't know. Depends on your author of choice.
For me, the comparison is guy with equivalent Warhams 40k stormtrooper training and equipment, who has all sorts of great training and specialized skills and tactical knowledge but is still a human in carapace armor, versus a guy with all the same skills and more (in certain areas, especially close quarters combat) but who is also an 8-9 foot tall in armor superhuman that spits acid, eats rocks and can pop human skulls in his bare hands for fun in a half-ton of super space age armor with a gun that shoots miniature rpg rounds that blow people in half. It takes more time to make a Space Marine, but you really get back what you invest.
Noble713 wrote:EDIT: Oh, and if you get off on this sort of "my universe can beat up your universe" thing, just read Iain M. Banks' Culture novels and become a Culture fanboi, since they are pretty much at the top of the food chain. Them and races like the Xeelee.
Why don't you just say the Q Continuum and be done with it?
Kanluwen wrote:Jango didn't train the grunts though
The grunts got flash training, and that was it.
The Commandos and ARCs got trained by Jango and a score of other mercs(a few Mandos and some others, as far as I recall).
Well, that's what I'm saying. They're based off of Jango, but they're not equal to him without further training and experience.
As far as the normal Clones have been protrayed, I was disappointed. I thought they were supposed to be more capable and threatening then they seemed to be in the movies. The only time I remember seeing them seem any better than any other soldier shown in a Star Wars movie was when they gunned down the Jedi.
If, AT ANY POINT, there is close combat in this conflict, Imperium will win hands down. Even the Imperial Guard are gritty fighters mostly. I don't even see the point of arguing that a clone is the equal of a Spaz Marin. There is NO WAY that is the case.
Also, It is difficult to determine who has the more productive force. Imperium has whole WOLRDS dedicated to manufactureing, also Imperium is far more united. Not really held back by polotics or "rights of xenos". I have to say that through sheer savagery the Imperium would annihilate the Star Wars Universe.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You guys are forgetting the true power of the Star Wars universe.
The Mandalorians.
That is all.
They got their arses handed to them by the Jedi, remember?
The only good Mandalorians were Jango Fett, who actually got gak done, and Canderous Ordo, who looks like Sly Marbo.
Actually Fett's clan got their asses handed to them. Or do you mean the Mandalorian Wars? I believe it took a sneaky low down superweapon to kill them off then. Then they came back. You cant dick with a Mandalorian. They kick ass and take names. Don't forget, technically all the clones are Mandalorians. Think about it, Jango Fett got his revenge with Order 66. So who's laughing?
Edit: Yes, Guardsmen Ordo, is actually present in the IG I am working on.
For more examples of why the Mandalorains are the best in any fictional universe I give you this
@whatwhat: That doesn't look like admiral Ackbar...
Also, simply enough. Callidus assasins. Apart from No.2 I have rarely heard mention of any really ELITE assasins, Star Wars mostly has incompetent thugs. Hardly in leage with the Assasinourium.
Frazzled wrote:40K Imperium has nothing comparable to a death star. Sorry.
BLACK STONE FORTRESS.
Planetkiller!
Planetkiller takes hours. As noted the Death Star committed extreme BAYSPLOSION on a planet in under a second.
I'll give you the Black Fortress. But the feral MonKeigh can't operate their big guns. Only the eldar and evidently a proximity to a necron fleet...
Look at the trouble the Imperium had with a Death Star er um World Engine, yea World Engine no IP issues there...
On the flip side, the Empire has nothing similar to a Nova Cannon. You have to respect the Nova Cannon.
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FITZZ wrote: If a bunch of stormtroopers couldn't hold up against a bunch of 3 foot teddy bears waving sticks,how well do you think they would do against a mob of Orkz..especialy considering the stormtroopers are worse shots.
You have an EXTREME POINT. Even the might of the Empire cannot survive George Lucas left to his own devices...er fluffy teddy bears.
ON the positive, a nice visualization of a space battle between chaos and Imperium capital sheets would be Babylon Five Earth Alliance ships fighting each other-complete with lances and fighters.
I wonder how a deflector shield would manage against a D-Cannon.
I also wonder if the Star Wars geeks feel like they are defending their chosen set of pretty pictures against "those ignorant chest-beating 40k savages" as much as 40k oriented people consider the Star Wars stuff to be "puny and in dire need of conquering".
"blah blah blah Battle Station!" I think you meant to say.
All the shooty bits worked at least. The shield came from...Endor? The teddy bear moon. They'd have to finish the thing before moving it unless they wanted to immediately lose it to gettings it's entire exposed half shot out.
I'm pretty well grounded in both universes. And that includes the extended star wars universe. So let's just quickly run over the relevant data.
SW Forces There are actually several types of Imperial infantry. The first is the Imperial Trooper, which is basically a cadian guardsman. They're the standard garrison on most world, wear light armour, and carry blaster rifles. They go through fairly standard training. The second type of troop is the Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers are actually supposedly the more elite soldiers, and whilst they're produced in far greater quantities than a space marine, are only about the same level as a Stormtrooper. They have similar armour and armament.
The Empires ace in the hole infantry wise would be the Dark Trooper. They're basically giant armoured exoskeletons with a crap load of weapons and armour. They also look a lot like a marine, and are equivalent in armour and height. Vehicle wise, they usually have small walkers, equivalent to the sentinel in the AT-PT, and the AT-ST. They also have hundreds of different variations, from artillery, to crab droids. I'm not even gonna go into that. But suffice to say, without even including AT-AT's, they can match anything the imperium has tank wise.
Link to their armaments:-http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Imperial_vehicles
Imperial Spaceships vary in size but are typically far smaller then Imperium Ships. An standard Imperial Star Destroyer carries sixty Turbolasers, about 12 Ion Cannons, a few Tractor Beams. A Star Destroyer is about a tenth of the size of a standard Imperium capital ship. A Super Star Destroyer is about the same size as an Imperial Capital Ship, and an Eclipse Class Star Destroyer is about four times the size of an Imperium Capital Ship. A Victory Class Star Destroyer is about a sixteenth the size of an imperium Cruiser. That's most of the common types out of the way.
Initially the Super Star Destroyer was a one off, and the Lusankya And Executor were produced. However, the design later entered general circulation, so it is a standard production model. The Super Star Destroyer possessed much the same armaments as a Imperial Star Destroyer, just in greater amounts. Also, it had launch bays for forty fighter squadrons, as opposed to the Imperial Classes
six. The Eclipse class was a one off ship that contained a superlaser powerful enough to crack the the surface of a world. It only possessed about a quarter the power of the death star, but it's still enough to overload and trash an imperium warship or blackstone fortress in one go.
Tactics wise, sw is far different to 40K in space battle. Whilst the duelling between capital ships is far more close range, you forget the fighters. If there are bombers in significant amounts, they are capable of overwhelming ships easily. Not only that, but SW battles are far quicker than 40K ones, as SW ships have far faster engines. The Imperium would find it hard to fight a naval battle the traditional way, instead, it would be more like fighting against the Eldar.
In a campaign, the Empire holds first strike capability, as it's hyperdrive and communications systems are far more predictable and reliable than the Imperiums. They also hold the initiative in any space battles. However, their ships are smaller and more fragile on the whole than the imperium ones, so it would come down to which side was tactically better in a space engagement. On the land side of things, both sides are equally capable in weapons, and armaments. On the campaign side, the Imperium has far more in terms of raw manpower to throw than the Empire. However, the Empire has far better production capacity, and unlike many of the Imperiums weapons, they can replace their entire range ofexisting weaponry. Not only that, but the hyperdrive system makes it far easier to move manpower, around, and resupply on a regular basis.
In conclusion:The Imperium of man has far more raw power than the Empire. It's ships are bigger and more destructive, and it has far greater numbers. However, the Empire has the tactical advantages of engaging when and where they want, and having a reliable resupply and reinforcement network. Who would win? Hard to say.
Before anyone starts mentioning orbital bombardment, both sides have it, and I didn't include jedi, or exterminatus, or death stars because those are all relatively rare occurences, and wouldn't affect things too much on a galactic campaign scale.
No regular ships in Star Wars have an effective range of more than 1,000 km or so. (Which is perfectly sensible, as the universe was made for the movies, which wanted to show exciting battle scenes that didn't involve astronomical distances between enemy ships.)
In contrast "no more than a few thousand kilometers" is base contact in Battlefleet Gothic. This means while the Empire has a huge strategic advantage, the Imperium dominates on a tactical level (as the Empire is required to engage their enemy in what are extremely close quarters to the Imperium).
This reminds me of the Space Marine v Halo Spartan thread in general discussion.
On the ground, is the Imperium were to deploy Titan Legions, isn't even a lowly Warhound like twice the size of an AT-AT, faster, and better armed and armored?
I can see elite SW Stormtroopers to be about equal to Imperial Guard Stormtroopers, but I'd think the backup of space marines with chainsaw swords and exploding bolts that blow people in half might turn the tide. Would a blaster even scratch say, a dreadnought? There are likely awesome ground vehicles I don't know anything about, since I'm not really familiar with the extended universe.
This is a geek war of epic proportions we could probably argue forever.
Herpaderp. Crossover threads are a complete waste of time.
P.S. On the ground, the Imperium obviously meets great success. In the air, Airspeeders and Spacefighters (TIE variants) deployed in atmosphere dominant Imperial Navy. In space, fleets of the Imperium have range and durability over Star Destroyer variants. Void shields > SW shields.
Exarch_Nektel wrote:Wait, how does the empire have a huge strategic advantage?
Much faster and more reliable, in terms of both the ships and their communication.
(Although, psykers and The Emperor's Tarot could give the Imperium some forewarning of an attack. Even if they couldn't mobilize defenders from other systems, they'd be able to try and engage the Empire from as great a distance as they could, at put the huge range gulf into play...)
Also, I don't think Empire stormtrooper armor is all that great, really. I mean, the fully enclosed suit is nice against harsh environments or chemical weaponry and the like, but in terms of taking a hit it's just not all that great. Blasters don't generally blow arms off or blow chunks out of walls like lasguns, but they still take down stormtroopers with a shot to the chest.
I would say it's more comparable to what Eldar Guardians have than carapace.
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Also, I don't think Empire stormtrooper armor is all that great, really. I mean, the fully enclosed suit is nice against harsh environments or chemical weaponry and the like, but in terms of taking a hit it's just not all that great. Blasters don't generally blow arms off or blow chunks out of walls like lasguns, but they still take down stormtroopers with a shot to the chest.
I would say it's more comparable to what Eldar Guardians have than carapace.
Hotshot Lasguns would probably melt SW Stormtroopers, especially since it melts power armor, so I guess you are right.
I think they might lose some morale when their comrades are exploding like bloody meatsacks from bolt shells and having limbs blown off by lasguns rather than the PG falling over with a tiny scorch hole like the movies (is it bloodier in the expanded universe books?).
Jedi vs a Librarian would be an interesting fight.
relevant text, 400 billion stars, 1 million habitable worlds, 20 million intelligent species (wow that seems unrealistically high), 100,000 lightyears in diameter
I am also going to point out that mixing universes is always going to end up in arguements like this.
For instance, which is better, a Space Marine or Master Chief?
I completely agree with Orkeosaurus but one question is, at what point in each time line does the cross over occur?
If at the time of pre heresy then Star Wars has a chance of winning because the massive planet killers and and weapons of mass destruction hadn't been perfected and chaos didn't really exist as marines.
But if set after the destruction of the Sith and Empire and Death Star then 40K would win as the Star Wars universe is trying more to rebuild than create more weapons and mobilize for war. Although some old weapons of the republic could be used....
I am also going to point out that mixing universes is always going to end up in arguements like this.
For instance, which is better, a Space Marine or Master Chief?
That thread is on like page 3 of general discussion
I am also going to point out that mixing universes is always going to end up in arguements like this.
For instance, which is better, a Space Marine or Master Chief?
That thread is on like page 3 of general discussion
It's hard to set a time period for them to fighting in. I presume by 'The Imperium' we mean the Imperium of the 41st century, and by 'The Empire', we mean the Empire shortly previous to the construction and demise of the first Death Star.
If you start mucking around in the Empire storyline, you have to take into account several superweapons, from the Galaxy Gun, to the the three Death Stars, to the Sun Crusher. However, as all of these were rare occurences in the SW universe, it's better if you just discount them all together, and set the confrontation period where The Empire has just reached the heigh of it's power, but before it begins spending all its dosh on gigantic planet destroying superweapons.
@Ketar: I'm interested in how you believe that Star Wars has a greater production rate than the Imperium?
While Star Wars may be able to come up with new weaponry and such, Imperium has WHOLE PLANETS dedicated to the creation and replacement of thier existing armements.
Also, with the Dark Troopers (did i get it right?) I think there are way more Marinz thsn their are Dark Troopers.
Also. Titans. BIG titans. Would wipe the field with Tank Battles.
If it comes to a land battle, I think the Imperium would win. Only through Naval conflicts would the Empire or whatever stand a chance. And even then, even if they could go toe to toe with the Imperiums Navy, the space marinz would honestly do soemthing crazy and luanch thier boarding craft or drop-pods onto the bridge...AND WIN.
Combat would almost ALWAYS result in victory to Imperium.
There were actually several variations of the Dark Trooper.
The original didn't have too many produced, but many of the variations were mass produced. To be perfectly honest, I'd be surprised if there weren't more copies of a armoured exoskeleton than there are space marines(considering there's only so many marines about). And if there weren't, that would be easily rectified by the setting up of new production facilities.
As to production rates, I estimate the Empire having a higher one due to the fact that they not only have mass production worlds(like the Imperium's Forge Worlds), but they have a regular habit of setting up military production facilities on just about every planet they have. You might be able to present a case for equal munitions production rates, but I would argue that the fact that the Imperium cannot physically replace much of the technology it fields once destroyed(certain types of leman russ, vortex weaponry, etc), it can't actually replenish it's losses effectively.
Warhound Titans are smaller than an AT-AT. Not only that, but the Empire makes use of light atmospheric capable spacecraft carrying large payloads of bombs capable of cracking a starships shield, never mind a titan. This isn't even including the millions of variations on tanks and artillery the Empire can field, which are all capable of inflicting damage on a titan in great enough numbers. I still judge the land battle to be even.
Emperor Class Titan?
Also, Imperium Forge worlds would be more Productive than Empire worlds. This is mainly becuase they REALLY take advantage of everything and work people to death and such, stripping worlds of resources, they are UTTERLY dedicated to production above all else. Not great for long term Ideas, but just fine for war.
Don't forget that every Imperium planet is responsible for raising, manning and maintaining thier own regiments. Easily gathering millions (if not billions) of soldiers through that alone.
I've already mentioned in my earlier post that the Imperium far outmans the Empire. Do you think that the Imperium is somehow nastier than the Empire? The people that go around blowing up planets with billions of people on? They don't just work people to death, they work thousands of alien species to death as well.
I'm very familiar with both fluff, and so far, I've heard nothing to disprove my initial judgment.
As for the emperor class titan, we both know that's a relatively rare model, and considering that smallest of star destroyers carries at least 10 AT-AT's, it's just a matter od diverting firepower accordingly. 'Size matters not', remember?
Imperium would win over the Empire any day with mass destruction weapons. Sure the Death Star can destroy a planet in one second but you would have to recharge the laser. Plus you would have to keep getting operators because of all the people dying of lukiemia.And is every one forgeting that the death star was destroyed by an 18-year old firing torpedos into a hole. All the imperium would hae to do is virus-bomb the planet.Plus the imperium can set up hidden research outposts because the planet would still hold together.
That post was literate, and detailed well all of the vast strategic and tactical advantages the Imperium holds over the Empire, whilst at the same time, providing a profound insight into the fluff and background of both worlds. I hereby recant everything I have said up until this point, and will now subscribe to all your posts, as such an encyclopaedic knowledge of the fluff can only serve to better my mind, and enlighten me.
I don't know that an AT-AT can match what Warhounds field. They're well armored, but they only have one gun, and it's not even that powerful.
They're not called "armored transports" for nothing. Warhounds are built to kill titan-class enemies, we're pretty much comparing a destroyer to a transport here.
(Also, the higher level titans carry starship-level weaponry and shielding on them themselves. The Imperium also has air support, although they don't tend to get as much mention. I don't think that the Empire would roll over in a ground battle, I think the Imperium is favored by a decent amount.)
The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.
The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.
The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.
Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.
I don't know what a "clone assault blaster" is, but the blaster rifles used by stormtroopers in the movies were doing nothing of sort.
The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.
Starship class is relative, though. And not necessarily very descriptive, considering how small the fighters in Star Wars can end up.
The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.
What? Watch the movies again. The stormtroopers aren't flipping and killing everything, even when they're not against Jedi.
You seriously underestimate the amount of training the Imperial Guard can go through as well. Cadians are raised to fight from birth. Catachans live on hell. How are the Empire's troops trained better? Do they live for hundreds of years like the Eldar do?
Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.
They seemed pretty bothered by the rebels prior to Luke showing up, though.
Maybe they wouldn't have been destroyed by them, but Palpatine's apprentice was personally working on fighting them.
Then there's the matter of the need to build the Deathstar to intimidate planetary populations. Whether or not those populations are actually affiliated with the Rebel Alliance, it shows a real weakness in the Empire's hold over the rest of the galaxy.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.
I don't know what a "clone assault blaster" is, but the blaster rifles used by stormtroopers in the movies were doing nothing of sort.
Movies=Black Library. Star War EU= 40K universe. What the movies show, and what the background describes are two different things. Often in the books it is far bloodier than the movies. Consider the movies were also products of the 40's/50's/60's action movies with infinite magazines, nazis with no aim, and furries. The books are what we have to use when comparing the two universes. Stormtroopers are very much elite in the books. Unless they are fighting Jedi or main characters, and as all villains, they can't handle them.
The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.
Starship class is relative, though. And not necessarily very descriptive, considering how small the fighters in Star Wars can end up.
Beginning of episode three when they are flying through the battle, do you remember the beam shot from the hanger of the Assault Ship? It is the same thing on the back of those walkers. It blew the frigate in half, pretty powerful if you ask me.
The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.
What? Watch the movies again. The stormtroopers aren't flipping and killing everything, even when they're not against Jedi.
You seriously underestimate the amount of training the Imperial Guard can go through as well. Cadians are raised to fight from birth. Catachans live on hell. How are the Empire's troops trained better? Do they live for hundreds of years like the Eldar do?
Trained by Mandalorian supercommando (the toughest beings in the galaxy), conditioned to be unquestioningly obedient, good fighters in the books. I think you underestimate the clones .
Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.
They seemed pretty bothered by the rebels prior to Luke showing up.
Maybe they wouldn't have been destroyed by them, but Palpatine's apprentice was personally working on destroying them. That implies enough importance.
Then there's the matter of the need to build the Deathstar to intimidate planetary populations. Whether or not those populations are actually affiliated with the Rebel Alliance, it shows a real weakness in the Empire's hold over the rest of the galaxy.
Sith being Sith, and the people of the 40K are far less independent and concerned with personal rights. If Palpatine had ruled the 40K galaxy he would have found it much more to hs liking. In fact, in 40K things happen that would make Palpatine go: 'Wait, we can't do that!'.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Movies=Black Library. Star War EU= 40K universe. What the movies show, and what the background describes are two different things. Often in the books it is far bloodier than the movies. Consider the movies were also products of the 40's/50's/60's action movies with infinite magazines, nazis with no aim, and furries. The books are what we have to use when comparing the two universes. Stormtroopers are very much elite in the books. Unless they are fighting Jedi or main characters, and as all villains, they can't handle them.
What are you talking about? The movies are the highest form of canon in the Star Wars; George Lucas himself wrote and directed them.
Yes, the movies were limited by special effects, but the setting was made for the movies. That the movies are limited in what they can show is irrelevent, as the setting was made for the movies themselves, and thus is shaped to reflect that. It's like land battles, and assault in 40k. Yeah, they could just shoot at each other with guns from long distances, or seige each other with ships, but the setting was built around a game, and that game involves ground battles with close combat. The setting is what it is.
If you want to argue based on books that say blasters can blow up boulders, feel free, but we'd be talking past each other. For me, Star Wars is based off of the movies first and foremost, and I think that's true for the majority of the population as well.
Beginning of episode three when they are flying through the battle, do you remember the beam shot from the hanger of the Assault Ship? It is the same thing on the back of those walkers. It blew the frigate in half, pretty powerful if you ask me.
I don't remember that move all that well, it was almost too crammed with stuff, but from your description is does sound pretty powerful.
(Wait, are you talking about those six-legged ones, or are those a different AT?)
Trained by Mandalorian supercommando (the toughest beings in the galaxy), conditioned to be unquestioningly obedient, good fighters in the books. I think you underestimate the clones .
Clones?
I thought you were talking about the stormtroopers. Yeah, I'll admit the clones were very well trained.
Sith being Sith, and the people of the 40K are far less independent and concerned with personal rights. If Palpatine had ruled the 40K galaxy he would have found it much more to hs liking. In fact, in 40K things happen that would make Palpatine go: 'Wait, we can't do that!'.
He probably should have declared himself a god. He can strike people down with lightning, it might have caught on eventually.
Okay it seems like people are ignorant about the technical end of Star Wars here so I'm going to start filling people in. I've just skimmed so feel free to let me know if I've missed any key points.
First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.
On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.
For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.
In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.
The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.
I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.
EDIT: Some may complain of accuracy issues, but in many cases they were firing from the hip, which is not conducive to accuracy but rather to suppressing fire. On a cushy assignment IE the Death Star, or were the rear guard and reserve force, as seen in Episode VI when the rebels down the shields. For the types of fighting they were doing they are more accurate than a modern special operations team, however due to the way Hollywood portrays gunfights on screen the numbers seem far lower than they really are.
Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.
Once again if I've missed a point or something has already been debated to an end excuse me as I have merely skimmed this topic.
EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.
djphranq, as a man that is sadly impossible. I will however accept your thanks and point you to bbs.stardestroyer.net for more Star Wars information.
EDIT: This is a thread from that topic on this very debate, they also have a very good set of calculations on 40k weapons in the other Sci-Fi section. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=60102
Automatically Appended Next Post: To those saying that the Death Star was a huge money sink for the Empire, it wasn't it was a small enough project to be kept hidden and supplied by one transport company. It's destruction was due to fluke and the shot would likely not be made by a far larger 40k fighter, which are scaled to match a Star Wars Corvette and would be easier for the surface turbolasers to hit.
For those claiming the Imperium has an easier time destroying worlds look up a Base Delta Zero attack that a single ISD can do in under a day and a small group can accomplish in under four hours. They have also possessed the ability to make world devastators and large scale super lasers since well before they were first deployed.
For those who think that the Imperium holds more worlds or citizens than Star Wars think again a fraction of the Galaxy is held by the Imperium and the vast majority of the universe is held by the Empire and later the New Republic. They are said to have a million core worlds and many more small worlds as well. Using a conservative average of 10 billion people a world (when Coruscant has more like a Trillion or more) and 1.5 million worlds we get a total population of 15,000,000,000,000,000 people in the Galactic Empire, more would surely join them in the face of the Imperium. If only 1 in 100 were trained to fight that would give them 150,000,000,000,000 organic soldiers not to mention the droids as I have pointed out above.
EDIT: By the end of the war cloning techniques designed to produce thousands of fully flash trained clones per week were ready and working and could have been expanded as needed. Thoughh the time frame for doing so is beyond me.
Norade wrote:First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.
In my world, the galaxies were merged some how. The easiest way to do this would probably to put one on top of the other.
I'd also assume that the warp permeates the Star Wars galaxy (and is as moody as it is the Milky Way), and that the Empire knows the Milky Way well enough to make jumps in (if not as well as they may in their own galaxy; more like jumping around the outskirts).
Finally, neither side is under attack by outside factions, but neither side has the absolute loyalty of their empire. This means no orks or tyranids for the Imperium, and it means no chaos marines or malicious gods either. However, the warp remains as dangerous to psykers as ever, and navigating the warp isn't any easier, as this would give the Imperium way more capabilities than they rightfully should have. The Rebel Alliance and Jedis also don't exist. However, there is still as much rebellion and dissent as there was before, and both sides will have to maintain control of their empire through some manner or let the worlds defect.
(Once again, my scenario, anyone's free to come up with a different one.)
On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.
That's assuming they have all the pieces available; the factory was just the assemply of the droid.
Also, battle droid legions aren't used by the Empire, so that's a question of era.
For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.
Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.
However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.
In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.
That depends somewhat on what they know of the space, but even if takes a week that's immensely faster than the Imperium over such distances.
(Barring the times when ships arrive in the past, of course. But they'd just as soon turn up a few centuries later...)
The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.
This one I have my doubts on. Lances level mountain ranges.
EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.
Well, you have to clairify what you're talking about if you're going to do a discussion like this.
I'm only arguing from the perspective of the movies being the foremost
I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.
Even if they're just going into shock, they're still incapacitated. I always figured the black burn mark was the penetration, though.
I don't ever remember having seen chunks blown out of walls, at least not in the original trilogy. I could double check though, that'd bump the blaster's power up a notch.
Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.
I think psykers may be a powerful asset; aside from being necessary for travel and communication, their predictive abilities are a huge asset against an enemy as fast the Empire, and they can also act sort of a catch-all problem solver.
Psykers have never been the big guns of the Imperium, though. Too dangerous, too unreliable. Now, if it was some sort of "universe vs universe" thing it'd be another story, as the warp would be on their side, but as it stands they're not a game winner.
Once again if I've missed a point or something has already been debated to an end excuse me as I have merely skimmed this topic.
There's the issue of ranges in ship to ship combat. As much of a difference in speed there is between the Empire and the Imperium, is the difference in their ranges of engagement. As befitting a setting made for a movie, ships in star wars only fight each other within hundreds of kilometers. At least, the ones in the movies do.
In contrast, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a "few thousand kilometers".
Norade wrote:First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.
In my world, the galaxies were merged some how. The easiest way to do this would probably to put one on top of the other.
I'd also assume that the warp permeates the Star Wars galaxy (and is as moody as it is the Milky Way), and that the Empire knows the Milky Way well enough to make jumps in (if not as well as they may in their own galaxy; more like jumping around the outskirts).
Finally, neither side is under attack by outside factions, but neither side has the absolute loyalty of their empire. This means no orks or tyranids for the Imperium, and it means no chaos marines or malicious gods either. However, the warp remains as dangerous to psykers as ever, and navigating the warp isn't any easier, as this would give the Imperium way more capabilities than they rightfully should have. The Rebel Alliance and Jedis also don't exist. However, there is still as much rebellion and dissent as there was before, and both sides will have to maintain control of their empire through some manner or let the worlds defect.
(Once again, my scenario, anyone's free to come up with a different one.)
Excellent, that seems the best way to do things.
On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.
That's assuming they have all the pieces available; the factory was just the assemply of the droid.
Also, battle droid legions aren't used by the Empire, so that's a question of era.
They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.
For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.
Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.
However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.
In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.
That depends somewhat on what they know of the space, but even if takes a week that's immensely faster than the Imperium over such distances.
(Barring the times when ships arrive in the past, of course. But they'd just as soon turn up a few centuries later...)
Will they be able to see the Astronomicon at in the SW galaxy? As I recall it has dimmed recently and some sectors have been cut off due to this.
The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.
This one I have my doubts on. Lances level mountain ranges.
EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.
Well, you have to clairify what you're talking about if you're going to do a discussion like this.
I'm only arguing from the perspective of the movies being the foremost.
Then we agree, however offical Lucas Arts cannon is movies > books > gameplay.
I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.
Even if they're just going into shock, they're still incapacitated. I always figured the black burn mark was the penetration, though.
I don't ever remember having seen chunks blown out of walls, at least not in the original trilogy. I could double check though, that'd bump the blaster's power up a notch.
See the Cantina scene in Episode 1, not Han v Greedo, but when the Stormtroopers shoot. That is IIRC, it has been a while.
Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.
I think psykers may be a powerful asset; aside from being necessary for travel and communication, their predictive abilities are a huge asset against an enemy as fast the Empire, and they can also act sort of a catch-all problem solver.
Psykers have never been the big guns of the Imperium, though. Too dangerous, too unreliable. Now, if it was some sort of "universe vs universe" thing it'd be another story, as the warp would be on their side, but as it stands they're not a game winner.
Some people like to claim that so I addressed it straight away.
There's the issue of ranges in ship to ship combat. As much of a difference in speed there is between the Empire and the Imperium, is the difference in their ranges of engagement. As befitting a setting made for a movie, ships in star wars only fight each other within hundreds of kilometers. At least, the ones in the movies do.
In contrast, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.
In books they can hit targets on a predictable path from 10 light minutes out. In many movie scenes the battle dictates the range such as the DS trench run, the Falcon vs. Ties, were either in tight or they were fighting under heavy ECM. At Endor they we're order to close in to avoid giving the DS any clear shots.
[sarcasm]Thank you for the informative post Dreadwinter, I shall have to post a many page rebuttal to counter your masterful use of the words 'Sly' 'Marbo' and 'Wins' and then decipher what 40k could refer to. [/sarcasm]
Really, why is it so hard to put some thought into a post...?
Norade wrote:They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.
Ah, I know they use a lot of droids, just not the huge armies of them, a la Phantom Menace.
Saying they would start producing them is awfully speculative, though. How do you know they wouldn't be even more worried about the political repercussions? How do you know they can get the facilities producing them in sizable quantities fast enough? (Without sacrificing their other industrial capabilities, might I add?) How do you know Palpatine would trust them?
I mean, it's kind of like speculating about the Starchild or something. Yeah, he could be reborn and unite humanity, and cause all of the Empire's planets to defect, and destroy fifty battlecrusiers with his awesome abilities, but the Imperium doesn't have the Starchild, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the versus thread to give them abilities they don't have at the start of the battle.
For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.
Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.
However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.
Will they be able to see the Astronomicon at in the SW galaxy? As I recall it has dimmed recently and some sectors have been cut off due to this.
If the galaxies were on top of one another, the Imperium would be able to see a little less in the Star Wars galaxy than they could in their own, as it's now going up a little bit in addition to out.
See the Cantina scene in Episode 1, not Han v Greedo, but when the Stormtroopers shoot. That is IIRC, it has been a while.
Eh, I don't want to go try and get my VCR to work, and I can't find my DVD.
In books they can hit targets on a predictable path from 10 light minutes out. In many movie scenes the battle dictates the range such as the DS trench run, the Falcon vs. Ties, were either in tight or they were fighting under heavy ECM. At Endor they we're order to close in to avoid giving the DS any clear shots.
Well... in space something going in a truly predictable path would be hard to miss. After all, nothing's really influencing the shot, it's just a lot of trig.
The scene where the Millennium Falcon needs to wait for the Tie Fighter to get in range seems to be a big one. The Falcon certainly isn't going to have the same capabilities as a capital ship, but at the same time, it's the same technology in play. The slow speed of the bolts is also going to be a factor; with astronomical distances, those things are going way to slow to hit anything with some maneuverability.
I think whatever side of the fight you favor, though, it would be close. (Unless, of course, the weapon power actually happened to be way out of scale, which isn't an impossibility.) Either one may actually end up dead not too soon after the other (Empire unable to maintain control with its lack of military enforcement, Imperium unable to replenish losses before orks come back fer unnuva go, etc).
Norade wrote:They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.
Ah, I know they use a lot of droids, just not the huge armies of them, a la Phantom Menace.
Saying they would start producing them is awfully speculative, though. How do you know they wouldn't be even more worried about the political repercussions? How do you know they can get the facilities producing them in sizable quantities fast enough? (Without sacrificing their other industrial capabilities, might I add?) How do you know Palpatine would trust them?
I mean, it's kind of like speculating about the Starchild or something. Yeah, he could be reborn and unite humanity, and cause all of the Empire's planets to defect, and destroy fifty battlecrusiers with his awesome abilities, but the Imperium doesn't have the Starchild, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the versus thread to give them abilities they don't have at the start of the battle.
That is true, but unlike the Starchild debate I am giving them nothing new. They have many high quality armed security droids already in production that could be drafted. You also must consider that the production in the Clone Wars was done by a bunch of big corporations with limited government support. You can only imagine what would happen if the empire built a droid to make droids making factories (This capacity is later demonstrated by World Devestators, but available and used well before that.) The resource drain would also be limited as they send these factories to an unused asteroid field and they mow down and pump out droids. The sheer scale of an entire galaxy makes producing droids in numbers a trivial task.
For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.
Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.
However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.
That is ISD with additional support ships and heavier items as well. The manufacturing will ensure that losses will be felt far harder by the Imperium than for the GE.
Will they be able to see the Astronomicon at in the SW galaxy? As I recall it has dimmed recently and some sectors have been cut off due to this.
If the galaxies were on top of one another, the Imperium would be able to see a little less in the Star Wars galaxy than they could in their own, as it's now going up a little bit in addition to out.
Even so that limits them more than the Empire would be limited by using probe droids to find new hyperspace routes.
See the Cantina scene in Episode 1, not Han v Greedo, but when the Stormtroopers shoot. That is IIRC, it has been a while.
Eh, I don't want to go try and get my VCR to work, and I can't find my DVD.
Try youtube, it's great for these things.
In books they can hit targets on a predictable path from 10 light minutes out. In many movie scenes the battle dictates the range such as the DS trench run, the Falcon vs. Ties, were either in tight or they were fighting under heavy ECM. At Endor they we're order to close in to avoid giving the DS any clear shots.
Well... in space something going in a truly predictable path would be hard to miss. After all, nothing's really influencing the shot, it's just a lot of trig.
The scene where the Millennium Falcon needs to wait for the Tie Fighter to get in range seems to be a big one. The Falcon certainly isn't going to have the same capabilities as a capital ship, but at the same time, it's the same technology in play. The slow speed of the bolts is also going to be a factor; with astronomical distances, those things are going way to slow to hit anything with some maneuverability.
The Falcon was within the DS's ECM range and lacking military targeting computers. Just because I have a car with a radio, a gun, a telescope, and a gps, doesn't mean I have military grade targeting computers.
I think whatever side of the fight you favor, though, it would be close. (Unless, of course, the weapon power actually happened to be way out of scale, which isn't an impossibility.) Either one may actually end up dead not too soon after the other (Empire unable to maintain control with its lack of military enforcement, Imperium unable to replenish losses before orks come back fer unnuva go, etc).
I feel the opening clash would be close, and ground battles would end in much scorched Earth, but the greater manufacturing would allow the GE to gut out a victory after many years of war.
Ketara wrote:Go read the Yuuzhan Vong saga and say that.
I'm starting the get the impression now your argument derives from, 'Spass Marines is well ard and owns everyting!', whether that's the case or not.
I think the point is that while, yes, the empire has dealt with a few things on a similar plane in terms of grittiness and brutal warfare, the Imperium of Man does it just about everyday like it's nothing. What a space marine may lack in intelligence and tactical intelligence they make up for tenfold in brute force, true power, mansauce, and experience. we're talking soldiers who are HUNDREDS of years old at least.
Mandalorians kick ass, but the guard are nearly limitless. Assuming the mandalorians don't sleep, i don't see a clear victory from them anytime soon.
Cyclonic Bombs. I don't need to say anymore. (except for those of you who don't know what those are. they literally make the atmoshpere around you catch on fire. if they have some sort of atmospheric generator on any of the death stars, it'll be gone. if not, shoot it down before their sensors even realise the imperial ships exist)
Then, there's the chaos marines. they would win through sheer brutality, and to the star wars empire, sheer weirdness. it's an enemy unlike anything they've ever encountered. terrifying little beasts growing out of their arms and bodies, altering their weapons and gear, possessing their bodies, driving them mad, opening rifts into what they could only describe as hell, stuff the Imperium has dealt with for ages.
THEN there are the Tyranids. Assuming that they destroy the imperium (though, I personally can't see why. I've already had this argument between 40k and a star wars fanatic a long time ago, and i won, multiple times.) they'd have to deal with biological monsters that keep changing. the closest they had to that was some alien planet with some bugs of about the same height as a sentinel. (you probably know what i'm talking about ketara. that weird jungle place that was distinctly star-wars alien style, lots of bright colors. the most well known reference to it was in the *third* movie according the *earlier* trilogy where the clone troopers killed the twi'lek who used dual-lightsabers on the planet i'm trying to describe)
lastly, Eldar. they'd sense as close to chaos as the empire gets, which is palpatine/darth vader. Ulthwe would see them coming a million miles away like they did with horus during the heresey, and Abbadon during the 13th black crusade. they would NEVER let this happen. they'd send the orks on them. ALL of them. I dunno. they'd find a way.
The dark eldar would just have new toys to play with, and the T'au would assimilate them into the greater good, i.e. concentration camps after they got the kroot to hand their asses to them.
The Empire has a lack of long term infiltration methods. they have short-term cloaking devices that make you mostly invisible, which works incredibly well for short situations. IMHO, callidus assassins beats that hands down. so here we are at the temple assassins. after the callidus i'd go for the eversors. one eversor assassin killed 130 people with a plastic butterknife and a wooden spoon. the Culexus assassins, assuming the force powers are of the same property as to warp powers, would easily infiltrate into where ever the hell palpatine was hiding and beat the living gak out of the old man. same applies to Darth Vader. Vindicares would be useful on the battlefield just for taking out the commanders. I can't think of any better use. A culexus coupled with a callidus invading any of their superweapon-spaceshippy things would end the problems of super-weapons immediatley.
I don't think they're prepared for this kind of universe. they have gritty wars with people on equal footing. the imperium has gritty warfare with giant bloodthirsty demons, acid spitting bio-monsters, hedonistic hardcore S&M pirate elves and undead omnicidal robots. the imperial NUNS are their own fighting force. the bar for badass is raised in 40k.
Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?
Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?
Palpsy actually had a droid fetish but was too embarassed to have the others in the senate find out so he made it look like he didn't like them by having them fight clones... his other fetish. Star Wars is actually full of fetishes.
You're fully aware of the Imperial Intelligence Agency that was run by Isard, right?
As in: Capturing Rebel informants, programming them into sleeper agents who go after the highest valued target in a blaze of explosives, after reporting back everything they can?
Or the Clone Intelligence Service from the twilight of the Republic, which was Commandos given fully cloaking armor on par if not above the Tau's Stealth Suits and weaponry that could shear through the shields of fightercraft to then punch through the cockpit?
On the subject of the Chaos Marines and Tyranids, etc...
The Black Fleet Crisis(Yvethans, nasty buggers who had spikes growing out of their bodies and were tactical freaking geniuses, originally a slave race of the Empire and then trained in it), the Chiss(Thrawn's race), the Noghri(masterful assassins that even Jedi found hard to detect, much less STOP, given that they trained extensively as kill-teams for taking out Jedi), the Yuuzhan Vong(about as close to Tyranids as you can get), the Ssiruuvi(I think that's right. Truce at Bakura era, literally days after the fall of the second Death Star. A race that used 'life energy' drained from prisoners of war to power their combat droids, and to actually CONTROL the droids.)
We can go on and on, because there's also tons of renegade Jedi factions from after the fall of the Republic that have grown into full fledged cults.
Oh man I totally forgot about those guys. When I was starting to read some of the EU I at first thought these guys were the Yuzhan Vong... man, did I have that superbackwards or what.
Kanluwen wrote:Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?
Well, according to wookiepedia he grew to distrust his clone troopers (due to them all being too similar).
I don't really know that he wouldn't trust droids if they could be put to a really good use, but it might be a factor if he had to choose between, say, droids and stormtroopers. Or droids and star destroyers.
Also, if I recall, the droids really sucked. Not counting the deathballs and the other special ones.
crazypsyko666, you overstate things far too much. While the Star Wars universe has seen little like the total war the Imperium faces they have well disciplined forces and vast industrial superiority to the Imperium. They also have a working government and can keep track of their entire empire so little is wasted. When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.
Cyclonic bombs would need to head through ECM, shield,s and hull before finding air on the Death Star. Major worlds have planetary shields and even small bases such as the one on Hoth have theater shields capable of forcing a landing unless the enemy fleet wishes to pound them from orbit for a while. The empire can cause the same effect as that with a Base Delta Zero effect and have torpedo spheres as well.
Chaos is difficult, but can the warp pass through a full energy field to corrupt a star ship crew? I think they may not be able to, as well the force, not used by a Jedi, but as a whole does protect the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy.
The Eldar don't have the numbers and would need warp gates in the Ge held territory to strike from. That makes them losers here.
The DE are the same, but with lesser numbers and seemingly weaker weapons.
Tau control a few planets and even the Hutts or the CSA could beat them back with ease.
The assassins are better but assassins =/= a war won. You also have to respect what the bounty hunters and human replica droids can do especially if used on a large scale.
Nuns of war versus Monks with energy swords, I say they are equally interesting.
Kanluwen, they weren't used to avoid bring up memories of the war and as they were seen by many as the enemy. Their is little doubt that in a total war situation they would see action again.
If the forces of the Warp are in on it, Star Wars is probably a gonner.
The Warp is magic and it's ten times as magical as the Force.
If the powers of the Warp were united, and the Emperor was allied with them, all the Imperium would have to do is make all of their major systems into warp rifts. Then it's bye-bye any attempt to fight them, because the laws of physics no longer apply. Also, the Imperium could send their ships back in time, and attack a planet before they even left.
That's not even getting into what the Tyranids and united Orks could do against the Star Wars galaxy. Or the Necrons. Led by the Eldar. (Of course, you also have the issue in Star Wars of there being a hell of a lot of stuff that exists at different times, which complicates things further.)
Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.
the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.
Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.
EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.
Hey bub, movies are visual representations of a story. Obviously, I am not disputing that the movies are the highest form of canon. If you honestly believe Stormtroopers were as bad of shots as they were in the movie, have your head examined. If you also believe that the Battle of Hoth and Endor were as bloody on screen as they truly were, you are mistaken.
Marshal, I have a screen name and it isn't Bub, please use a bit more respect when dealing with me or I will make this unpleasant.
Now, when did I say they were bad shots? I was defending their accuracy in my post, and merely stating cannon as you seemed to be saying that EU was more important that the movies for this debate, I strongly disagree.
As for Hoth and Endor being bloodier on screen, as it seems to be your point, why wouldn't they be? The films show things exactly as they were as if they were shot by an in universe war corespondent. The books if anything would be akin to a news release and details would change in the retelling and details may be added or omitted as seen fit by the editor. Not to say they wil be wrong, but they will be different and the video would be a better first hand source of information that the report.
Norade wrote:Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.
It's only held back with the Emperor and the Necrons working against it. Now they'd be working with it.
Geller fields for the Empire seems unlikely, it's a technology they have no experience with, that interacts with a dimension they have no experience with.
I really do think the warp would be end-game. It's an infinite dimension of magic, it's not the kind of thing you can really fight. Once again, remember that the chaos gods know the future, and can guide ships along instantaneously.
the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.
They'd go down fairly easily in space, but BDZing their worlds would still hurt a bit.
Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.
I wouldn't be as worried about them on the ground as I would be space.
Their production capacity would far outweigh the Empire's if they were ever united. I think there was a calculation of at least a quadrillion orks in the Milky Way? And they live outside of it too. (I think they even built a Deathstar-ripoff once.)
They can't navigate very well, but if the chaos gods are guiding them, what are you supposed to do about that?
United Chaos is an oxymoron it simply can't happen and won't, and even if it did the IoM and Necron's would never go along. Both the GoM and the C'Tan hate Chaos and it may even reawaken some buried Nercon lords, those could certainly challenge the GE as they are said to be head and shoulders better than anybody else in 40k and that is with a fraction of their power.
The same goes for the Orks, they follow only Gork and Mork and theri Waaagh! Uniting them in greater numbers than Ghazghkull has would be nigh impossible.
Norade wrote:United Chaos is an oxymoron it simply can't happen and won't, and even if it did the IoM and Necron's would never go along. Both the GoM and the C'Tan hate Chaos and it may even reawaken some buried Nercon lords, those could certainly challenge the GE as they are said to be head and shoulders better than anybody else in 40k and that is with a fraction of their power.
The same goes for the Orks, they follow only Gork and Mork and theri Waaagh! Uniting them in greater numbers than Ghazghkull has would be nigh impossible.
It's more likely than them fighting against people from Star Wars!
Yes, I had assumed they would come in as they were or the collective powers of the IoM were left in partial isolation and allowed to go against each other. The warring factions there would weaken the IoM more than the rebels would weaken the GE so I assumed it was far. If we were comparing everything vs everything then Chaos could win, assuming their is any warp at all in the SW side of things, and that is not a given.
Because modern filmaking technology cannot capture the scope of destruction and devastation that such high level technology would produce. Do you honestly think that the OT had the technological capabilities as the PT. The Battle of Coruscant and Kashyyk are two perfect examples of accurate representations as opposed to the Battle of Endor, where we don't see any ship to ship action in as great detail, we have to read about it. In the PT you see the devastation.
We are ont he same side of this argument. I ams till waiting for you to realize it.
And I seriously doubt you will make anything unpleasant in a background forum. We are all just here to have a good time, and calling someone ignorant is hardly the way to make yourself a nonchalant and playful participant.
Norade wrote:Yes, I had assumed they would come in as they were or the collective powers of the IoM were left in partial isolation and allowed to go against each other. The warring factions there would weaken the IoM more than the rebels would weaken the GE so I assumed it was far. If we were comparing everything vs everything then Chaos could win, assuming their is any warp at all in the SW side of things, and that is not a given.
Aaaahhhhhh.
Well, I guess that is quite different from what I was thinking.
In that case, yeah, I think the Imperium would buckle under its enemies. It's just too much, they're already on the edge without needing to fight someone close to their size.
In that case, I think it could go one of two ways: 1) The Emperor of Man is reborn, and then the plotline is actually a little similar to that of the movies. The Emperor leads a rebellion against Palpatine, and with everything else Palpatine is trying to fight off (probably including chaos corruption), the Emperor defeats him and becomes the true ruler of the Empire. Actually, much of the Empire may remain intact in that case, they're not so much different from the Imperium. 2) The Emperor is not reborn. He's just dead. Without the Astronomicon the Imperium ceases to exist in any real fashion. However, chaos quickly seeps into the Imperium's former worlds, and stuff gets corrupted fast. It probably migrates to the Star Wars galaxy, and with just the Dark Side to oppose it, they're in trouble (especially since the Dark Side and Chaos might as well be lovers). The Empire is eventually defeated in much the same way the Imperium might be; corruption from within, aliens from without.
I suppose other possible scenarios would be Emperor Palpatine ascends to daemonhood (which would still be more a victory for chaos than the Empire, all things considered), orks/nids/necrons show yet unknown potential and kill everything, the Imperium somehow survives but nothing ever happens (if GW writes it), the Force responds in an unpredicted manner to the existence of Chaos, and the Hutts and the orks band together and party.
I supposed I miss understood your stance then, please allow my to apologize but calling me Bub doesn't suit me very well.
Anyway, I'm fairly sure you may be right, but we do get impressive scenes such as the asteroid destruction by a light turbolaser, Alderan's explosion, and the dogfights through the fleet at Endor. The ground battles also showed much smaller scale conflicts as the most major ground operations we see are attacks on lightly defended outposts and there is still much damage done to each side. As a matter of taste I prefer these scene to the PT as the CGI takes away from the seeming reality of things and going back CGI always looks more dated than models.
I also have mention something else. Polotcis. The Star Wars universe would be crippled by indecision. (Even Empire had to appease the senate to some extent), Imperium would have no such problem. The citizens all know what is expected of them and would show little to no mercy against those they fight. They are more dedicated than Imperial soldiers (mostly).
Also, I don't see any COMPARISON between the productive achievements of the Imperium and the Empire. (I see the figures for star wars but what do they mean without figures from Imperium?)
Lastly, undeniably, it would be the Imperium to strike first. (due to thier intolerance towards rivallry to such an extent) This would give them the element of surprise as there would be little or no warning for Star Wars.
I have to say that 40k would win through sheer, unhinged savagery.
Sorry, but the Emperor is a dictator. Politics are not such a big deal to him. He controls the senate.
Imperial soldiers tend to all be brainwashed.
And I find your use of the word 'undeniably' interesting here. I deny it. The Emperor's always been one to send fleets of warships ravening around the galaxy, establishing new colonies, and kicking the crap out of other civilisations. Whilst the Imperium might get first strike if the Empire didn't know that they were there, the Holocomm system and their hyperdrives would allow the Empire to quickly respond, making any first strike advantage minimal.
Whilst Norade has exaggerated several of the Empires capabilities, in a nutshell, the conclusion that him, me and orkeosaurus seem to have reached is that it would be a close thing either way, in a scenario with the Empire against the Imperium, without involving alternate races into the equation.
Emperor's Faithful, the very first act in Episode IV was to disband the senate and appoint more power to the Moffs. The ISB, and COMPNOR keep things in line.
For production the Imperium has no innovation, few shipyards where everything is done by rote the most reliable way to avoid losing a piece of ancient technology. We know the operate refurbished hulks many thousands of years old and that alone speaks volumes about what they can produce.
As for a first strike it would be limited to the range of the Astronomicon and would likely take many times longer to arrive than it would take the GE's counter blow to arrive due to the nature of the warp. Even if they struck first planetary shields and quick response fleets would eat the IoM alive as they come in piecemeal due to the random nature of the warp. You also seem to forget that the GE can be savage as well and that they have more population to call upon in a total war for both fighting and production.
As well droids and automated ramships have no morale so how do you think savagery will win once flesh is replaced with unfeeling metal? How will the IoM deal with World Devestators eating their fleet and then worlds and turning them to factories. By the time they respond they face a fortress and a swarm of drone ships and the Devestator has already moved on bigger and better than before. Now before you respond these machines at entire fleets whole before the shut down code was used.
Don't forget the DS, Torpedo Sphere, Plagues Nurgle has yet to lay eyes upon. People seem to think the GE is soft, yet ignore the evil they use as a matter of course. One does not destroy billions without being able to take heavy losses and survive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exaggerated, how so? My facts come from the ICS and other source books as well as calculations derived from, the movies and books. I have provide links that prove some of my points ans can back up everything I say.
Even the Emperor had to appease the Senate (somewhat).
And I'm not going to claim that THE Emprah is currently fully active as that would just be unfair. Mabye the Imperial Soldiers are brainwashed, but I mean the citizens? There was a widespread case of RA, remember? The Imperiums dogma and indoctrination of thier citizens is more "full on".
Also, compare the heads of power. The HQ. Terra is nigh impentrable, a whole sector fleet dedicated to the protection of one planet, not to mention the LEGION of custodes and such as well as the massive fortress itself. (As well as the billions of pilgrims that may/may not sacrifice themselves in it's defence). Corusant on the other hand is VERY vulnerable to attack. (Note the Sepratist kiddnapping of palpatine). A single chapter, or even just a company could be enough to drop pod down, sluaghter senate/whatever and then cuase untold havoc.
I don't think you should even START to argue that Palpatine is as agressive as the Imperium. Not saying it is a good thing (could be manipulated), but the Imperium WOULD strike first, and HARD. (Note the above scenario)
Okay Norade. Let's see what I can find in that one post of yours....
Well for a start, your claim that the Empire has more men under arms then the Imperium. As Lieutenant Kage once said, 'I come from a city with a billion humans on. There are thirteen such cities on my world, and tens of thousands of world like that in the Imperium'. The Empire maintains huge numbers of men under arms, but without including droids, which are NOT standard infantry in the Empire, and aliens, which are not allowed to serve in their armies, I don't see how the Empire can match these kinds of numbers. They have some densely populated planets, such as Coruscant, and Kuat, but they lack the sheer multitude of humanity in the GW Universe.
You keepo bringing up the World Devastators, but then you must as well start including the Galaxy Gun, and the Sun Crusher. We're considering the Empire immediately subsequent to the construction of the first Death Star, NOT everything ever available in the extended SW universe. I could stretch to including Eclipse class Star Destroyers, but once you start pulling in weaponry from all over the SW series, the 40K Universe gets to go back and start adding Primarchs and vortex weaponry. If you don't stick to one chronologically fixed period, the whole thing is meaningless. So in other words, no clones, no battle droids. There are some standard droid models, like Tank Droids, and robot TIE's, but as a general rule of thumb, droids are not the be all and end all of SW.
You fail to see that the Imperial worlds are controlled by fear, fear of the Empire, fer of external threats, fear of the ISB. The moment the attack comes the rebellion will crumble and you will see a united Empire, unlike the NR when the Vong attacked Palpatine would accept no less. After all he had prepared for an extra galactic attack before and while not the same would have plans for this.
How would Terra deal with a single Death Star Blast? What magic do they have that will strike back at 10 light minutes when the Death Star jumps in and sets itself up? What do they have to expose its weakness? What do they have that can harm those shields? Nothing, so your best world is exactly what the Death Star was made for.
Even a fleet of ISD's would do the job, micro-jumps, hit and fade eat away at a range they can never match. Fighters in Star Wars can pull 90% of the speed of light swiftly when going all out so, where is your trump card, your ace?
Automatically Appended Next Post: WD's were based on existing construction technology not something wild an new, that is a basic factory with AI and military grade defenses not some massive leap. They have mobile droid factories already, even if you simply game them an escort fleet it is too much to counter for a system that has lost entire sectors. You presume too much in trying to make this fight fair, I use things that are still there to be used, you call upon the past even with Primarchs and Vortexs the will not win as they can never choose their battles the way the GE can.
As for population the GE controls more territory than the IoM and while not militarized it means they have a large pool to draw from. We know they have an edge in R&D, production, and population, if they go all out they will not be stopped.
As for clones and droids you must not know any of Palpatine's plans, he had an entire secret stash of flash cloning vasts set to produce thousands of close perfectly loyal to him each weak. He had many droid programs running at once and with the rebels not their to foil him most would reach fruition. Once they are in full use again then what will the IoM do, they are at their limits and not producing enough to win, even if they're twice as good and kill twice as much they can never win against superior production. Ask Hitler about that his tanks averaged 5 to 1 kills to deaths but were ground out by sheer numbers, and once supplies were cut his troops starved or froze in Russia. Now imagine that your supplies were cut by a force moving with a speed you can't counter, your shipyards are dead and it take weeks for news to reach you and longer to send any help. Each time this happens the IoM loses a little more. Even if they aren't used to start why would they not see use if they are needed Palpatine didn't have a need and so many things were never used, but he had many reserves and was far more cunning than given credit for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: People also seem to think that an IoM alpha strike will happen but they need intel to choose targets and the GE will beat the their too. Probe droids can map far faster than the methods of the IoM and the IoM will nevrr see them coming until it is too late. Simply put the Empire may seem soft, but they have all the advantages in the end.
They do not have the edge in population, as I just established. Not only that, but the Empire does not militarise most of the planets under it's control. It maintains a basic garrison of so many thousands of troops per world, and that's it. That's because most Imperial human populated world's are actually quite happily pacified living under the Empire. The Empire has never once had to to go to a complete war footing, it's always had the luxury of taking troops from where they're not needed, and moving them to where they're critically needed. Their logistical support is second to none, but they are severely out numbered in terms of actual forces being raised, and overall population.
I'm going to ignore the section on the Emperors cloning vats, because including that is like including the ones Thrawn found on Wayland, or Cloaking Shields. We're keeping it fixed at a specific chronological period here. Saying, 'ah, but the emperor had many other things that would have worked if it hadn't been for those pesky kids and their meddling dog' isn't valid. Sorry. Use what the Empire has in the established period, in mass production and circulation, not one off super weapons, or research projects. SW isn't the only one with things like that, if you start bringing in droids, I reserve the rights to bring in uncorrupted Iron Men, you bring in World Devastators, I bring in vortex weaponry capable of tearing world devastators a new one.
Stick to the period and you'll have a viable argument. As things stand, I know a lot of both ends of the fluff, and the specifics, and you still exaggerating a lot. Not only that, as War Studies student, I have to say, your analogy with the use on Hitler is groundless, and meaningless without taking into account exactly who he was fighting, the tactics used, and the models of tanks involved. General Guderians diaries should provide a wealth of information for you there.
Norade wrote:You fail to see that the Imperial worlds are controlled by fear, fear of the Empire, fer of external threats, fear of the ISB. The moment the attack comes the rebellion will crumble and you will see a united Empire, unlike the NR when the Vong attacked Palpatine would accept no less. After all he had prepared for an extra galactic attack before and while not the same would have plans for this.
How would Terra deal with a single Death Star Blast? What magic do they have that will strike back at 10 light minutes when the Death Star jumps in and sets itself up? What do they have to expose its weakness? What do they have that can harm those shields? Nothing, so your best world is exactly what the Death Star was made for.
Even a fleet of ISD's would do the job, micro-jumps, hit and fade eat away at a range they can never match. Fighters in Star Wars can pull 90% of the speed of light swiftly when going all out so, where is your trump card, your ace?
As for population the GE controls more territory than the IoM and while not militarized it means they have a large pool to draw from. We know they have an edge in R&D, production, and population, if they go all out they will not be stopped.
Automatically Appended Next Post: People also seem to think that an IoM alpha strike will happen but they need intel to choose targets and the GE will beat the their too. Probe droids can map far faster than the methods of the IoM and the IoM will nevrr see them coming until it is too late. Simply put the Empire may seem soft, but they have all the advantages in the end.
Okay, for the Death Star and all, What did I say about Terra having its own ROUND the CLOCK sector fleet? Also, don't forget that the Astropath choir would sense their coming. (Now that you mention it, the emperors Tarot would come in use a lot.) Also, Terra is heavily shielded...HEAVILY shielded. (I don't know much about how the Death Star would cope with a shield of that magnitude, it only took out a defenceless planet and a few smallish ships). Don't know what ISD's are so can't comment. How can you say it controls more territory?
1) I would hardly call the Outer Rim "terrirtory" of the Empire. (to any great extent)
2) How many countries supply troops to the Empire? Compared to EVERY SINGLE ONE in the Imperium.
Lastly, callidus assasins and such would pick the targets. And also, astropaths and pskers WOULD see them coming.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, according to my lessons on Stalingrad, Hitlers troops killed relatively evenly (a slight slant to Germany) but the Russians had more troops to fill the gaps.
Hardly a 1 to 5 ratio though. Point stands though.
You ignore the sheer Scale of the GE's resources compared to the IoM, how do you counter when each ship lost is a thousand years of lost technology and each dreadnought the same? While you remain static the expect the GE to do the same and we have seen it is never that way. They developed throughout the entire clone wars, and even through the rebellion no less than three new models of fighter with several variants were introduced. You also discount that I am using things that exist and are already in use wide scale, cloning of new limbs and soldiers have been used before to great effect by Palpatine, the same goes for droids. The Stash at Wayland was fully operational before the Emperors first death, and was never used because he never saw a need.
You claim they have less population yet you forget the hundreds of city worlds that could contain as many as 387,654,720,000 citizens to themselves at low estimate. They hold a million full member worlds and many more smaller systems for resources. How many worlds does the IoM have? I would like numbers here not vague statements.
I am unfamiliar with uncorrupted Iron Men, but does the IoM in the 41st century have the ability to make more? Same with vortex weapons, they must have a limited stock if they aren't used more. You forget that each loss the IoM takes is irreplaceable and each lose the the GE can be remade again better than before.
You also fail to bring any counter to the speed, range, targeting, ECM, data management, infrastructure, production, supply and many other issues of no small import. So please tell me how the larger slower and only equally armed and under aimed ships of the IoM will win when they can never choose a stand, never catch a fleeing foe, and feel each lose more keenly? I am eager for an answer.
The model of weapon is irrelevant what matters is being outclassed and outproduced. Imagine if the Russians tanks were at the same quality as Germanies but were faster more reliable more replaceable and could strike anywhere at will and Germany had slower less reliable tanks than Russia with the survivability of a Sherman and production problems. That is the situation here the tactics suddenly cease to matter as the force parity vanishes and is replaced by a massive divide. Strategically you end up with no counter and tactics don't win wars and in this case can't even win most battles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Emperor if you don't even know what an ISD is get out of this debate, your lack of knowledge of the most basic Star Destroyer will be your undoing.
Bring me proof that an entire sector fleet could do more than scratch the Death Stars armor, the burden of proof is on you. Even if they see it coming, and the Tarot and Astropaths have been wrong before, what will they do to stop it? As for shields it is your job to quantify them not mine I know the Death Star can produce between 2.240E+32 and 1.214E+40 joules of energy per shot so prove that the shield will hold. You also forget that even with normal guns the Death Star could destroy entire worlds with ease.
The territories mentioned in the million worlds quote were full member worlds, there would doubtless be even more that produce goods and food that are too small or not well enough under control to mention. Even if we give each only an average of ten billion people per world, and that is a low estimate given that Coruscant with a surface area of Earth and the same density as Beijing would give 387.7 billion people to one world and would require many worlds with under 10 billion population to bring the average down.
The analogy was for tanks in the war, not overall, and imagine in the Germans could maneuver on average many weeks faster than the Russians and bypass all defenses as they do so. Imagine if they have the industrial capacity of Germany and Germany had that of Russia. Only more so, as that is the gap that exists between the two galaxies.
EDIT: How will you assassins board a ship or infiltrate a planet when they don't know anything about it, don't speak the language and can't catch a single ship to board? They will also look different act different and hold such shockingly different views that I can't believe fopr a second they have a chance at infiltrating anything even remotely important in the SW universe.
All these things you mention ARE produced, but at a very slow, meticulous rate. Also, when it comes to planets, vague figures are all that we have. I do know that there are at least a half-dozen worlds that give up several million REGIMENTS annualy. Cadia, Mordia, Macharia to name but a few.
Also, I'd judge the world pop to be relatively equal, but the MILITARY forces that are gleaned from each planet are vastly bigger figures for the Imperium.
Iron Men are strange, and rare. Mentioned obscurely in a few books (there are factories for them) let's just leave cheapy stuff out like that okay? Also, if a Primarch were involved the war would be a slaughterfest so let's just leave that out okay?
Imperium could easily choose a stand. If they go on the offensive. And all that requires is declaring a crusade. What do you mean feel each loss more keenly? They have VAST amount of reserves. This is just it. Imperium could easily block all the major hyperspace routes with thier fleets. They would not have to be omnipresent.
Also, I have yet to see your answer to Space Marines.
P.S. Didn't get the anology. You say they are the same quality, yet the russians have better quality?
Emperors Faithful wrote:All these things you mention ARE produced, but at a very slow, meticulous rate. Also, when it comes to planets, vague figures are all that we have. I do know that there are at least a half-dozen worlds that give up several million REGIMENTS annualy. Cadia, Mordia, Macharia to name but a few.
Also, I'd judge the world pop to be relatively equal, but the MILITARY forces that are gleaned from each planet are vastly bigger figures for the Imperium.
So you have numbers on the ground, in space that means nothing but more blue bloated bodies to fill the void. Even if those worlds to give up between 5 and say 20 billion men annually that is replaceable by birthrate and there is no reason Star Wars cannot do the same. You also ignore that fact that due to superior medical technology and bacta the GE's men will be able to survive things that no IoM soldier could.
Iron Men are strange, and rare. Mentioned obscurely in a few books (there are factories for them) let's just leave cheapy stuff out like that okay? Also, if a Primarch were involved the war would be a slaughterfest so let's just leave that out okay?
So elite ground forces, great, how do they help win the war in space again? If you hold space, the planet doesn't matter. That Primarch could die as his ship is breached by a turbolaser, or even by something as simple as a bad airlock never reaching the ground. If he doesn't hit the ground his skill and strength mean nothing. If he is blown away from orbit it means nothing.
Imperium could easily choose a stand. If they go on the offensive. And all that requires is declaring a crusade. What do you mean feel each loss more keenly? They have VAST amount of reserves. This is just it. Imperium could easily block all the major hyperspace routes with thier fleets. They would not have to be omnipresent.
Even if they park their ship in the lanes they don't have the capability to interdict and are thus leaving themselves open for a killing blow straight to the gut as everything flows by and kills the things they can no longer defend. If the pool in one place then everything else dies, that is what being slower means in this war. You defend Cadia, we kill off the planets that provide it food and materials, you defend those and Cadia is blown away. Either way you lose, if you can't hold it all you hold nothing against a foe that can choose every battle and will always fight your weakest known point.
Also, I have yet to see your answer to Space Marines.
A turbolaser tearing their battle barge in half and fighters killing them while they float in space. An orbital bombardment while the attack a world on the ground.
P.S. Didn't get the anology. You say they are the same quality, yet the russians have better quality?
I was saying that that what if the Russians had better things in all ways than the Germans in the same numbers and Germany had worse than what they really had in the same numbers. If we reverse the tank losses Germany now losses 7 to one in Russia the war ends very quickly. Now imagine that the Russian tanks can teleport moving many times faster and passing through lines without an defenses that can stop them. That is the situation the IoM faces.
Norade, if you'd actually bothered to read the entire thread, you'd realise I'd already addressed most of the issues for which you are 'eager for an answer'.
I'll address the remaining ones now.
Please name the source for these 'hundreds of city worlds' with hundreds of thousands of billions of citizens. Because that's what you just said. Hundreds of thousands of billions. I could maybe swing with coruscant on that scale, but no other planet, and I'm familiar with pretty much the entire star wars universe. And are yous aying all these planets are human populations? Remember, it's the xenophobic Empire we're addressing here, not every species in Star Wars.
Yes, they would have the capability to make more Iron Men, as if they had them, they would come from an STC system.
Wayland may well have existed, but it was not operational for general military purposes, and it's existence was only known to a few. As I said earlier, 'Use what the Empire has in the established period, in mass production and circulation, not one off super weapons, or research projects.'
You seem to have a lack of knowledge about the tank warfare on the German front. The Germans initially invaded Russia with inferior tanks. They still had Panzer II's in service at that time. Again, I would recommend leaving the WWII analogies at home here, unless you are sure of the analogy you are making.
All the munitions and the rest of it, I gave to the Empire already a few pages back. Please read the whole thread before entering a debate, as you may end up retreading already covered ground.
Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Still counting out the Mandalorians. This is a mistake.
mandalorians are the only guys who stand a chance against the 40k universe.
True, they are the only ones (jedi excluded) who can be counted on when things get down and dirty.
@Norade: Primarchs are VERY tough, as in, the they-have-walked-out-of-the-things-you-have mentioned tough. You fail to properly adress the threat of Space Marines. You can't say WE-BEAT-THEM-IN-SPACE. Becuase the Marinz are famous for daring-do attacks against infinity-to-one odds. They would luanch thier drop-pods and stuff into the Enemy ship. If they made it (which you can't deny SOME won't) then they would excel in those close quarters. There is plenty of fluff where marines have luanched thier pods straight into command brigdes, killing the serpent by cutting of the head.
Please name the source for these 'hundreds of city worlds' with hundreds of thousands of billions of citizens. Because that's what you just said. Hundreds of thousands of billions. I could maybe swing with coruscant on that scale, but no other planet, and I'm familiar with pretty much the entire star wars universe. And are yous aying all these planets are human populations? Remember, it's the xenophobic Empire we're addressing here, not every species in Star Wars.
Grizzmalt, Wukkar, Metellos, Alsakan, Denon, Humbarine (rebuilt), Teta, & of Coruscant to name a few, how many can you name for the IoM? I have just as much right to claim yours don't exist if you can't name them as you do for me so please, bring your proof. As for the GE not using aliens, what we see are primarily humans and some certainly do hate most alienas, but they are still used as slaves. Also not that Human's are by far the most populous species in the GE.
Yes, they would have the capability to make more Iron Men, as if they had them, they would come from an STC system.
How many can they make in a year? What are their capabilities?
Wayland may well have existed, but it was not operational for general military purposes, and it's existence was only known to a few. As I said earlier, 'Use what the Empire has in the established period, in mass production and circulation, not one off super weapons, or research projects.'
Why should they not use everything in a total war footing? That's like saying Russia can't use nukes in a hypothetical Russia vs. China battle because they didn't use them before that.
You seem to have a lack of knowledge about the tank warfare on the German front. The Germans initially invaded Russia with inferior tanks. They still had Panzer II's in service at that time. Again, I would recommend leaving the WWII analogies at home here, unless you are sure of the analogy you are making.
While they did use inferior tanks in Russia, the Tigers and Panthers had very impresses kills and that brought up the overall kills-to-losses on the front. As well even the Panzer II's were better commanded, more experienced, and better coordinated in battle compared to the Russian;s giving many advantages.
All the munitions and the rest of it, I gave to the Empire already a few pages back. Please read the whole thread before entering a debate, as you may end up retreading already covered ground.
As for covered ground, I really don't care, the people may have lacked the knowledge I have. As for your statements about the rest, then you've already conceded that the GE will win a decisive victory and I have no further need to continue. Unless you have something to add?
Primarchs are VERY tough, as in, the they-have-walked-out-of-the-things-you-have mentioned tough. You fail to properly adress the threat of Space Marines. You can't say WE-BEAT-THEM-IN-SPACE. Becuase the Marinz are famous for daring-do attacks against infinity-to-one odds. They would luanch thier drop-pods and stuff into the Enemy ship. If they made it (which you can't deny SOME won't) then they would excel in those close quarters. There is plenty of fluff where marines have luanched thier pods straight into command brigdes, killing the serpent by cutting of the head.
So the Primarch survives floating in space and gets strafed by a fighter in the mop up or left to die. How was he effective again?
Their pods pass through particle shields and are immune to point defense fire? I call BS on that, given a fighter screen, shields being up around the bridge, and point defense they never make it. They're still dead in space.
Mandalorians are the only guys who stand a chance against the 40k universe.
The Mandalorian's are mostly dead by the start of the fourth movie.
Here is the answer to the death star problems. Deep strike terminators in there and watch the slaughter.
Prove that they can DS through the shields, heavy ECM, and the thicker than their used to hull into a ship they don't have a clue of the layout. The burden of proof is on you that they can get in range, penetrate the defenses, no appear somewhere they can survive not knowing the layout.
Railguns wrote:This is so thick with nerdery it has it's own whirlpools of circular arguments and recurring statements.
Yes a little light jokism from movies vs. codex art turns into nerdrage arguments set to stun. I just keep getting marvelled at all the SW(facts). To an OSWF (original Star Wars fan) who remembers seeing the curtains pulled back on the stage and the big first explosion, all these SW facts are hokey. If it didnm't come from a movie with Han Solo in it, its not Star Wars baby. On the positive its much calmer than your average YMTC discussion.
In the Force Unleashed one apprentice Dark Jedi reaches out from the surface of a planet and drags a star destroyer into the planet. Couldn't Yoda just sit on Dagobah and make IG navy ships collide with each other?
I think you underestimate the capabilities of IoM ships in comparison to Empire ships.
Once again, the heavier lance weapons can level mountains. What's the best thing turbolasers can do? Blow up astroids, I know, but then you have to try and figure out how big they are.
For another example, a continent is leveled and planet sterilized for generations (as a side effect) by a couple of barrages from three battleships.
That seems exceed what Base Delta Zero entails.
And then there is, once again, the huge gulf in range.
I think you underestimate the capabilities of IoM ships in comparison to Empire ships.
Once again, the heavier lance weapons can level mountains. What's the best thing turbolasers can do? Blow up astroids, I know, but then you have to try and figure out how big they are.
We no longer need those calculations straight from the Revenge of the Sith Incredible cross sections we know that the Acclamator-troop transport, not a fully capable warship, has a peak reactor out put of 2 × 10^23 Watts if we drop that down by two orders of magnitude for a shot from it's main guns that is able to put out 1E6-1E7 megatons of energy per shot from her heaviest weapons. If that was from an asteroid the effects woulkd be as follows
'Both land and ocean impacts produce enough atmospheric dust to affect global climate, freezing crops. Impact ejecta are globally distributed, causing widespread fires. Land impact destroys a large nation (Mexico, India).' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
The ISD would likely have 2 orders of magnitude more fire power than that falling in the 1E8-1E9 range that produces this effect.
'Probable mass extinction event. Global climate changes last for weeks or months. Direct destruction occurs on continental scale (Australia, United States). Massive global firestorms. The K-T extinction event 65 million years ago fell into the upper end of this category.' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
To give an asteroid example an ISD could, at minimum, vaporize a 20km asteroid with her heavy guns as this would only require 3.070E7 megatons of energy and is easily within their far lower limits.
For another example, a continent is leveled and planet sterilized for generations (as a side effect) by a couple of barrages from three battleships.
That seems exceed what Base Delta Zero entails.
A BDZ is designed to make a world so unlivable that it is more expensive to terraform than to colonize a new planet. The surface is made molten and everything, even that which hides underground in bunkers is killed.
Norade wrote:Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.
the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.
Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.
Yes but in theory couldnt the force be the warp but with a different name? In the story of starwars large number of people,including various jedi, rulers, soldiers and the like, have been corrupted by the dark side of the force. The dark side is basically the warp but the jedi think they livein a goody fruity wonderful world and think there is a light side to it while as a matter of fact the warp is already taking root in there hearts. The jedi are already psykers but,again,with different names.
Norade wrote:We no longer need those calculations straight from the Revenge of the Sith Incredible cross sections we know that the Acclamator-troop transport, not a fully capable warship, has a peak reactor out put of 2 × 10^23 Watts if we drop that down by two orders of magnitude for a shot from it's main guns that is able to put out 1E6-1E7 megatons of energy per shot from her heaviest weapons. If that was from an asteroid the effects woulkd be as follows
'Both land and ocean impacts produce enough atmospheric dust to affect global climate, freezing crops. Impact ejecta are globally distributed, causing widespread fires. Land impact destroys a large nation (Mexico, India).' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
The ISD would likely have 2 orders of magnitude more fire power than that falling in the 1E8-1E9 range that produces this effect.
'Probable mass extinction event. Global climate changes last for weeks or months. Direct destruction occurs on continental scale (Australia, United States). Massive global firestorms. The K-T extinction event 65 million years ago fell into the upper end of this category.' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
To give an asteroid example an ISD could, at minimum, vaporize a 20km asteroid with her heavy guns as this would only require 3.070E7 megatons of energy and is easily within their far lower limits.
Except that's not consistent with what's displayed. Ever.
Do you have one example of an Imperial Star Destroyer blowing up a continent with one shot from its turbolaser?
I have a counter example, from the novelization of The Revenge of the Sith:
RotS wrote:From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.
Thus, the most powerful lasers being fired can vaporize a small town. That's impressive, but nowhere near destroying countries.
A BDZ is designed to make a world so unlivable that it is more expensive to terraform than to colonize a new planet. The surface is made molten and everything, even that which hides underground in bunkers is killed.
Your own link seems to disagree with you.
Link wrote:Base Delta Zero is the Imperial codename for what is often referred to as "burning off" a world. As described in the Imperial Sourcebook, "it is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids." This operation has been referred to as reducing "a civilized world to slag"1, reducing "a planet's surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours"2, and "the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities."3 The timeframe is known to be less than a day, although it is not known how much less.
Three different descriptions, and the more specific they get the less total they appear to be.
Even going by the first one, you don't know if "reduced to slag" refers to the planet's crust or the civilization on top of it.
Link wrote:Dankayo: in Scavenger Hunt, three star destroyers attacked Dankayo and reduced the Rebel base to slag. They blasted the atmosphere off the planet and atomized its topsoil8, pounding the planet with such violence that only a "deep planet shelter" could provide protection.9. The surface of the planet was left in an evenly cratered state, which indicates the blanket use of indiscriminate high-yield ground-burst explosions.
A deep bunker prevents their destruction.
In contrast, the Imperium was firing at necron tombs buried miles below the surface. Sterilizing the world wasn't even their goal, they were obliterating a continent.
Yes, the IoM is at a range disadvantage when the Star Wars ECM comes into play.
Norade wrote:Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.
the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.
Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.
Yes but in theory couldnt the force be the warp but with a different name? In the story of starwars large number of people,including various jedi, rulers, soldiers and the like, have been corrupted by the dark side of the force. The dark side is basically the warp but the jedi think they livein a goody fruity wonderful world and think there is a light side to it while as a matter of fact the warp is already taking root in there hearts. The jedi are already psykers but,again,with different names.
Maybe the Warp in the Star Wars galaxy is less chaotic than ours. After all, the Warp would be a nice place if people were nice. bu they're not. So it isn't.
Norade wrote:We no longer need those calculations straight from the Revenge of the Sith Incredible cross sections we know that the Acclamator-troop transport, not a fully capable warship, has a peak reactor out put of 2 × 10^23 Watts if we drop that down by two orders of magnitude for a shot from it's main guns that is able to put out 1E6-1E7 megatons of energy per shot from her heaviest weapons. If that was from an asteroid the effects woulkd be as follows
'Both land and ocean impacts produce enough atmospheric dust to affect global climate, freezing crops. Impact ejecta are globally distributed, causing widespread fires. Land impact destroys a large nation (Mexico, India).' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
The ISD would likely have 2 orders of magnitude more fire power than that falling in the 1E8-1E9 range that produces this effect.
'Probable mass extinction event. Global climate changes last for weeks or months. Direct destruction occurs on continental scale (Australia, United States). Massive global firestorms. The K-T extinction event 65 million years ago fell into the upper end of this category.' Source: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html
To give an asteroid example an ISD could, at minimum, vaporize a 20km asteroid with her heavy guns as this would only require 3.070E7 megatons of energy and is easily within their far lower limits.
Except that's not consistent with what's displayed. Ever.
Do you have one example of an Imperial Star Destroyer blowing up a continent with one shot from its turbolaser?
I have a counter example, from the novelization of The Revenge of the Sith:
RotS wrote:From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.
Thus, the most powerful lasers being fired can vaporize a small town. That's impressive, but nowhere near destroying countries.
They have been shown to blow away asteroids with shots from guns so small they can not be seen on screen in The Empire Strikes Back. As well the way cannon works is that if it is not disputed in the movies it stands, so these numbers are perfectly accurate as far as all involved and in charge are concerned, I suggest you familiarize your self the Star Wars Cannon policy.
As for your event the burden of proof is on you to show that those are the ships heavier guns firing at full power. Seeing as you can provide no such proof you must concede.
A BDZ is designed to make a world so unlivable that it is more expensive to terraform than to colonize a new planet. The surface is made molten and everything, even that which hides underground in bunkers is killed.
Your own link seems to disagree with you.
Link wrote:Base Delta Zero is the Imperial codename for what is often referred to as "burning off" a world. As described in the Imperial Sourcebook, "it is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids." This operation has been referred to as reducing "a civilized world to slag"1, reducing "a planet's surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours"2, and "the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities."3 The timeframe is known to be less than a day, although it is not known how much less.
Three different descriptions, and the more specific they get the less total they appear to be.
Even going by the first one, you don't know if "reduced to slag" refers to the planet's crust or the civilization on top of it.
Link wrote:Dankayo: in Scavenger Hunt, three star destroyers attacked Dankayo and reduced the Rebel base to slag. They blasted the atmosphere off the planet and atomized its topsoil8, pounding the planet with such violence that only a "deep planet shelter" could provide protection.9. The surface of the planet was left in an evenly cratered state, which indicates the blanket use of indiscriminate high-yield ground-burst explosions.
A deep bunker prevents their destruction.
In contrast, the Imperium was firing at necron tombs buried miles below the surface. Sterilizing the world wasn't even their goal, they were obliterating a continent.
I see you have picked the weakest examples ignoring the part about vaporizing seas to kill all edible fish, a feat requiring 1E27 Joules of energy to accomplish. I suggest you cease in being dishonest and start to debate properly before everybody starts to see that you are a mewling hypocrite.
Yes, the IoM is at a range disadvantage when the Star Wars ECM comes into play.
I wish I know what that meant.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that you do not know what an Electronic Counter Measure, AKA Jamming, chaff, passive and active sensor are? Remind me how you're qualified for this debate again when you fail to put in a small amount of research to learn a term and have to pout at your own lack of knowledge?
Exarch_Nektel wrote:Maybe the Warp in the Star Wars galaxy is less chaotic than ours. After all, the Warp would be a nice place if people were nice. bu they're not. So it isn't.
While it has been suggested that the force is equal to a calm peaceful warp it can't be proven so it is best left out of a serious debate.
Yes but everywhere the same things hae different names. For example in the 40k universe humans are called humans by humanity. But to the tau they are refered to Gues'va IIRC. So if human physkers were scattered through the warp to a distant galaxy far far away and the population grew with no prior knowledge of the warp and grew to start to learn about it they could call it the force. And the pyskers could establish an order and called them selves the "Jedi".
deadratman wrote:Yes but everywhere the same things hae different names. For example in the 40k universe humans are called humans by humanity. But to the tau they are refered to Gues'va IIRC. So if human physkers were scattered through the warp to a distant galaxy far far away and the population grew with no prior knowledge of the warp and grew to start to learn about it they could call it the force. And the pyskers could establish an order and called them selves the "Jedi".
However the force is clearly not the warp, we never hear of force mishaps or the like nor do we see any signs of corruption besides what Palpatine did to himself. As well they seem to have different abilities and no dirrect non-speculative link between the two has ever been formed.
Norade wrote:They have been shown to blow away asteroids with shots from guns so small they can not be seen on screen in The Empire Strikes Back. As well the way cannon works is that if it is not disputed in the movies it stands, so these numbers are perfectly accurate as far as all involved and in charge are concerned, I suggest you familiarize your self the Star Wars Cannon policy.
As for your event the burden of proof is on you to show that those are the ships heavier guns firing at full power. Seeing as you can provide no such proof you must concede.
How about no?
For one thing, you just have out the ships' power output, which means you still have to prove the ships weaponry can match it. Prove that the weapons impart that much force on their target.
For another, the novelizations of the movies are as valid as the movies themselves, so I have no idea where this "canon" thing is coming from.
I see you have picked the weakest examples ignoring the part about vaporizing seas to kill all edible fish, a feat requiring 1E27 Joules of energy to accomplish. I suggest you cease in being dishonest and start to debate properly before everybody starts to see that you are a mewling hypocrite.
Oh dear lord, so this is the NERDRAGE everyone talks about.
Seriously, chill the feth out.
In response to the 1E27 Joules, that's just the requirements for boiling (all of) the ocean. Which assumes that "fisheries" implies the whole ocean, for some reason.
Also, how much time is required to boil all that water (tip: "less than a day" does not mean two hours)? And how many ships are required to do so?
Are you honestly trying to tell me that you do not know what an Electronic Counter Measure, AKA Jamming, chaff, passive and active sensor are? Remind me how you're qualified for this debate again when you fail to put in a small amount of research to learn a term and have to pout at your own lack of knowledge?
Seriously quit being such a douche.
Anyways, they have cloaking; that might do a lot, it might do a little. Unless you have some inside tip as to how the Imperium's sensors would interact with cloaking technology from another universe.
Norade wrote:They have been shown to blow away asteroids with shots from guns so small they can not be seen on screen in The Empire Strikes Back. As well the way cannon works is that if it is not disputed in the movies it stands, so these numbers are perfectly accurate as far as all involved and in charge are concerned, I suggest you familiarize your self the Star Wars Cannon policy.
As for your event the burden of proof is on you to show that those are the ships heavier guns firing at full power. Seeing as you can provide no such proof you must concede.
How about no?
For one thing, you just have out the ships' power output, which means you still have to prove the ships weaponry can match it. Prove that the weapons impart that much force on their target.
For another, the novelizations of the movies are as valid as the movies themselves, so I have no idea where this "canon" thing is coming from.
Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.
I see you have picked the weakest examples ignoring the part about vaporizing seas to kill all edible fish, a feat requiring 1E27 Joules of energy to accomplish. I suggest you cease in being dishonest and start to debate properly before everybody starts to see that you are a mewling hypocrite.
Oh dear lord, so this is the NERDRAGE everyone talks about.
Seriously, chill the feth out.
Seriously thicken your skin, and learn to do some research of your own.
In response to the 1E27 Joules, that's just the requirements for boiling (all of) the ocean. Which assumes that "fisheries" implies the whole ocean, for some reason.
Also, how much time is required to boil all that water (tip: "less than a day" does not mean two hours)? And how many ships are required to do so?
Did you miss the part that states that edible fish can be found 100m down in water and could be found as deep as 1000m down? Also 1000m =/= an entire ocean. You also ignore the fact that the atmosphere was blasted away, not burned away by a virus bomb but expelled away by explosive force. Your cherry picking of examples is growing tiresome
You also fail to mention Caamas in your example so let me post that:
'records are sketchy about this operation, but it has been established that it was performed shortly after the Clone Wars by forces loyal to Emperor Palpatine. There were no living witnesses to the attack, which means that there were no survivors anywhere on the entire planet (not even animals, plants, or people in buried shelters, according to the official records). This meant that the only surviving Caamasi were those who had been off-world during the attack. It is also known that the attack took less than a day, although we don't know how much less, and the size and composition of the attacking force is still unknown. Moreover, we also learned that the environmental devastation was so great that even after 40 years, it would have actually been easier to terraform a barren planet to Caamas's original specifications than it would have been to restore Caamas itself! This suggests that Caamas was massively irradiated, or that so much of its surface material was blasted up into the upper atmosphere that it rendered normal terraforming operations impractical. It was effectively destroyed as a habitable world, although not as literally or permanently as Alderaan.'
Are you honestly trying to tell me that you do not know what an Electronic Counter Measure, AKA Jamming, chaff, passive and active sensor are? Remind me how you're qualified for this debate again when you fail to put in a small amount of research to learn a term and have to pout at your own lack of knowledge?
Seriously quit being such a douche.
Anyways, they have cloaking; that might do a lot, it might do a little. Unless you have some inside tip as to how the Imperium's sensors would interact with cloaking technology from another universe.
Cloaking, you are ignorant and unwilling read what I have written so let me try again, ECM is active jamming of communication and senors and disruption of electronics via EMP not cloaking. Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that your sensors would work, not on me to show that they wouldn't. Juts because you have done no research and have taken to attacking my claims with no evidence or support for your own side and have taken to cherry picking my examples as opposed to showing examples, with math to back them up, shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the knowledge needed to carry on this debate.
PS: Cry Moar! You have nothing going for you concede now and safe face while you can.
Wait. This is not even relevant to this thread anymore. We're discussing who has better technology and I am positive that Emperors Faithful didn't have this in mind.
Frazzled is it wrong that I expect Orkeosaurus to do his own research and bring hard numbers to a debate? Is it wrong to call a person ignorant when they have demonstrated such behavior? I can be more civil, but he has shown an unwillingness to do anything more than repeat the same phrases over and over and attack my statements with sound and fury rather than with numbers and logic and it is frankly irritating, like debating with a screaming child who think he's right because he learned a few things in science class.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deadratman wrote:Wait. This is not even relevant to this thread anymore. We're discussing who has better technology and I am positive that Emperors Faithful didn't have this in mind.
How can we debate the military might of each force if we don't analyze their weapons? Any debate of who would win in a sci-fi battle comes down to who is better equipped to deal with the enemy.
Norade wrote:Frazzled is it wrong that I expect Orkeosaurus to do his own research and bring hard numbers to a debate? Is it wrong to call a person ignorant when they have demonstrated such behavior? I can be more civil, but he has shown an unwillingness to do anything more than repeat the same phrases over and over and attack my statements with sound and fury rather than with numbers and logic and it is frankly irritating, like debating with a screaming child who think he's right because he learned a few things in science class.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deadratman wrote:Wait. This is not even relevant to this thread anymore. We're discussing who has better technology and I am positive that Emperors Faithful didn't have this in mind.
How can we debate the military might of each force if we don't analyze their weapons? Any debate of who would win in a sci-fi battle comes down to who is better equipped to deal with the enemy.
Yes but technically we are not debating each force.We are debating where lasers come from or who can boil an ocean. And were actually talking about The Empire and the Imperium.
YMTC debates are usually heated due to the same reason, one person raising points and the other using a wall of ignorance to try and debate them. That will raise the hackles of the person putting in effort every time.
Modquisition on:
It can be considered violating Rule #: BE POLITE.
If posters cannot argue the merits of an issue in a polite manner then they should refrain from posting in the specific thread or agree to disagree. This is designed to insure that all posters have a positive experience having fun.
Beyond that you run the risk of running afoul of the Moderators, who frankly are not used to handling problems in the background forum. We can discuss this privately if you so desire.
But again this is a public warning to all posters. In case you're not aware, I'm the cranky Moderator and am surprised I'm having to look at something in the background section. You might consider that and go back to posting in the casual semi-humorous manner that has been occurring in the first 4 or so pages.
I will be monitoring this thread in the future.
Modquisition off:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deadratman wrote:
Yes but technically we are not debating each force.We are debating where lasers come from or who can boil an ocean. And were actually talking about The Empire and the Imperium.
And the deadratboy cuts to the heart of the matter. Lets not get our panties in a wad when discussing who has more Fzoggle: stormtroopers or, er, stormtroopers
In the future I will try to express myself in a less confrontational way, however a serious debate has been started and it would a disservice to end it here over a few insults both ways. Though if I don't receive any numbers from Ork soon I will have to call this debate in my favor as I don't fancy beating on a wall of ignorance forever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any debate about two empires will be broken down by military might at some point. To understand military might we must know what it can do and how it works. Just because some people want an uninformed no numbers debate that will solve nothing doesn't mean I do.
Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.
Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>
Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.
The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.
Seriously thicken your skin, and learn to do some research of your own.
Did you miss the part that states that edible fish can be found 100m down in water and could be found as deep as 1000m down? Also 1000m =/= an entire ocean. You also ignore the fact that the atmosphere was blasted away, not burned away by a virus bomb but expelled away by explosive force. Your cherry picking of examples is growing tiresome
"Blasted" is pretty vague. Considering that the hand weapons in the Empire are called "blasters".
Also, the upper third of the ocean is still not fisheries. Places where fish are caught or bred are fisheries.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous to claim that it would require boiling the water to kill all of them off. And even if they could boil oceans, under what time frame and with how many ships?
You also fail to mention Caamas in your example so let me post that:
'records are sketchy about this operation, but it has been established that it was performed shortly after the Clone Wars by forces loyal to Emperor Palpatine. There were no living witnesses to the attack, which means that there were no survivors anywhere on the entire planet (not even animals, plants, or people in buried shelters, according to the official records). This meant that the only surviving Caamasi were those who had been off-world during the attack. It is also known that the attack took less than a day, although we don't know how much less, and the size and composition of the attacking force is still unknown. Moreover, we also learned that the environmental devastation was so great that even after 40 years, it would have actually been easier to terraform a barren planet to Caamas's original specifications than it would have been to restore Caamas itself! This suggests that Caamas was massively irradiated, or that so much of its surface material was blasted up into the upper atmosphere that it rendered normal terraforming operations impractical. It was effectively destroyed as a habitable world, although not as literally or permanently as Alderaan.'
That's pretty devastating.
However, that's with an unknown force, and it took a while (not a huge amount of time, but a dozen hours of non-stop bombardment is quite a bit).
Cloaking, you are ignorant and unwilling read what I have written so let me try again, ECM is active jamming of communication and senors and disruption of electronics via EMP not cloaking. Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that your sensors would work, not on me to show that they wouldn't. Juts because you have done no research and have taken to attacking my claims with no evidence or support for your own side and have taken to cherry picking my examples as opposed to showing examples, with math to back them up, shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the knowledge needed to carry on this debate.
How is the burden of proof on me?
You're just making up rules as it suits you. How do you know an EMP can get through a void shield? Or a Battleship's hull? Or that it's effective against AI based on organic components?
deadratman wrote:Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.
Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>
Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.
The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.
To be fair "asteroid" is a nebulous size there. It would take substantially more energy to wump the asteroids the SD was shooting in ESB vs. a multiple hundred mile long rock.
Its sad, I've only seen ESB about 85 times (no joke). I'll have to get a refresher whilst the wife is off on her leadership training this weekend (after shooting of course). Need to watch soemthing whilst work on the old bloodcrusher conversions...
Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.
The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.
Yes, but it shows a well defined lower limit that the books later expanded upon to show much wider spread destruction.
Seriously thicken your skin, and learn to do some research of your own.
I'm juts not going to touch this anymore.
Did you miss the part that states that edible fish can be found 100m down in water and could be found as deep as 1000m down? Also 1000m =/= an entire ocean. You also ignore the fact that the atmosphere was blasted away, not burned away by a virus bomb but expelled away by explosive force. Your cherry picking of examples is growing tiresome
"Blasted" is pretty vague. Considering that the hand weapons in the Empire are called "blasters".
Also, the upper third of the ocean is still not fisheries. Places where fish are caught or bred are fisheries.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous to claim that it would require boiling the water to kill all of them off. And even if they could boil oceans, under what time frame and with how many ships?
As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:
'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.
A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'
This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:
'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!
Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!
But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'
You also fail to mention Caamas in your example so let me post that:
'records are sketchy about this operation, but it has been established that it was performed shortly after the Clone Wars by forces loyal to Emperor Palpatine. There were no living witnesses to the attack, which means that there were no survivors anywhere on the entire planet (not even animals, plants, or people in buried shelters, according to the official records). This meant that the only surviving Caamasi were those who had been off-world during the attack. It is also known that the attack took less than a day, although we don't know how much less, and the size and composition of the attacking force is still unknown. Moreover, we also learned that the environmental devastation was so great that even after 40 years, it would have actually been easier to terraform a barren planet to Caamas's original specifications than it would have been to restore Caamas itself! This suggests that Caamas was massively irradiated, or that so much of its surface material was blasted up into the upper atmosphere that it rendered normal terraforming operations impractical. It was effectively destroyed as a habitable world, although not as literally or permanently as Alderaan.'
That's pretty devastating.
However, that's with an unknown force, and it took a while (not a huge amount of time, but a dozen hours of non-stop bombardment is quite a bit).
As noted above a single ship could do it in four hours and a fleet in less. That also ignores the other evidence posted for firepower.
Cloaking, you are ignorant and unwilling read what I have written so let me try again, ECM is active jamming of communication and senors and disruption of electronics via EMP not cloaking. Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that your sensors would work, not on me to show that they wouldn't. Juts because you have done no research and have taken to attacking my claims with no evidence or support for your own side and have taken to cherry picking my examples as opposed to showing examples, with math to back them up, shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the knowledge needed to carry on this debate.
How is the burden of proof on me?
You're just making up rules as it suits you. How do you know an EMP can get through a void shield? Or a Battleship's hull? Or that it's effective against AI based on organic components?
Does the Imperium use radar or radio or even laser pulses for communications? If yes they can be jammed. Do they uses X-rays, infrared, and/or these can be jammed without effecting the sensors of the target ship overly much. ECM isn't just EMP or jamming, but a combination of many things to deny the enemy information on the battlefield.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Deadrat, please try to back up your assumption as [Insert Name] > [Insert Name] isn't adding anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While I can't find too much information on size, but scaling has been done and given time I can provide evidence as to their size.
deadratman wrote:Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.
Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>
Jawas><Squats
Who are Eldar like?>
Well Eldar can be simalar to Jedi because of all that force psycic thing.
Seriously? Star Wars could possibly be compared against 40K? I mean an untrained Psyker could probably make Darth Vader cry blood out his bunghole from 2 miles away.
Additional points:
Imperial Guard - Okay, so their tanks don't float. They still have bigger guns than anything I've seen from the Star Wars franchise
Chaos - 40K's Rebels are evil, and have Daemons! Tau - I see no Space Commies in Star Wars. Instant Fail.
The Death Star was blown up by an emotional Teenager.
Storm Troopers in 40K Can actually hit what they're aiming at The Black and White Spehss Mehreen on a Black and White bike. Nuff' Said.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Metallifan, do you care to offer proof for any of this? Or is this juts more smoke, do you have any numbers or evidence at all, page numbers from books? Have you calculated Stormtrooper accuracy? Do you assume that there will be a warp in the Star Wars universe for Psykers to work with?
Please do try to defend your points with research and logic.
Thats a video version of a stat comparison. theasteroid scene had astyeroids of many many different sizes. The visual dynamic and normal ranges of SW firing in movies would denote them shooting up rocks substantially smaller than they are.
Er, not getting into this though at this level of detail. It makes my butt itch and not in the good way...
True, back when those calculations were all we had to go by that would be perfectly valid, however with the numbers cropping up in the EU novelizations and the Incredible Cross Sections books we now find that they are fairly accurate and prove that the books numbers are correct. If anybody cares to do the math and measuring for themselves feel free.
I would also welcome similar numbers for the 40k side as we have had none so far and only vague descriptions of the numbers of guard they can produce. I would like to see fleet numbers, calculations for weapons output, and the like to go against my own sources. I am limited in 40k knowledge, but will read any links and well thought out arguments and articles on such subjects.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Metallifan, do you care to offer proof for any of this? Or is this juts more smoke, do you have any numbers or evidence at all, page numbers from books? Have you calculated Stormtrooper accuracy? Do you assume that there will be a warp in the Star Wars universe for Psykers to work with?
Please do try to defend your points with research and logic.
No, because I really don't care that much about a movie franchise to take creepy steps like that to prove a point that has no effect on my overall life. I'm just throwing in my two grains. I apologize if I've offended the Star Wars Mecca in any way. We'll all stop saying mean, hurtful things about Star Wars now, mmkay?
Norade wrote:As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:
'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.
A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'
I'm not seeing where the "two hours" estimate comes from.
If something says "less than a day" that rarely means "two hours". Maybe there were no witnesses because they were all shot down? Or maybe no one was visiting, who knows.
Less than a day implies more than half a day. Probably around 16 hours or so, not quite enough to round down, but not enough to round up.
This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:
'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!
Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!
But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'
8 gigaton blasts sounds about right.
I generally figured the most powerful turbolasers would be in the mid/high-gigaton range, with the smaller ones closer to the mid-megaton range.
Does the Imperium use radar or radio or even laser pulses for communications? If yes they can be jammed. Do they uses X-rays, infrared, and/or these can be jammed without effecting the sensors of the target ship overly much. ECM isn't just EMP or jamming, but a combination of many things to deny the enemy information on the battlefield.
Hmm. Not sure on this one, I can't find anything in the Battlefleet gothic rulebook.
Well, for communications they use the astropaths, of course, but I don't know if they use them in targeting.
@Norade: You asked for the names of a few city planets (called Hive planets). Here we go:
-Necromunda
-Coronis Agathon
-Macharia
-Canta IX
Each of these planets are fortress world. This means that the whole population will be militarised. I was mistaken earlier, these planets only produce 100 regiments a year, but due to thier size these regiments are easily more than a miliion strong each.
Heavily populated forge worlds and such, like Armageddon and Minea also provide regiments but most of the pop is dedicated to making arms.
Minea is the only EXACT pop reference I can get at 154 billion. Also, on page 115 of the big red book, it that the approx amount of Hive worlds in the Imperium is:
-3.238 X 10(to the power of 4)
Can't be bothered to figure it out but it sounds like a lot.
They use the Astropaths for psychic jamming as well. their powers have also been used at the Cadian Gate as weapons against Daemon Possessed-Ships, though they're rarely used for this purpose elsewhere, as this usually kills most of the Astropaths in the process, which would thus leave the ship without the means to make Warp Travel.
Imperial Ships, from what I've read in most BL novels, have short and long range Vox systems, which are similar to a wireless radio, for inter-ship communications.
Norade wrote:As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:
'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.
A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'
I'm not seeing where the "two hours" estimate comes from.
If something says "less than a day" that rarely means "two hours". Maybe there were no witnesses because they were all shot down? Or maybe no one was visiting, who knows.
Less than a day implies more than half a day. Probably around 16 hours or so, not quite enough to round down, but not enough to round up.
No traffic around a relatively populous world seems unlikely as some ships would have been in hyperspace as the attack started and wouldn't have known of the attack. It also seems unlikely that any ship seeing such a thing would fail to turn and leave ASAP and get word out, though I can't confirm that. Without many examples to go by less than a day could mean 23 hours 59 minutes, or 1 minute we simply cannot say however using the evidence I think we can say 8 to 16 hours would be a fair range for a trio of Star Destroyers.
This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:
'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!
Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!
But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'
8 gigaton blasts sounds about right.
I generally figured the most powerful turbolasers would be in the mid/high-gigaton range, with the smaller ones closer to the mid-megaton range.
That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.
Does the Imperium use radar or radio or even laser pulses for communications? If yes they can be jammed. Do they uses X-rays, infrared, and/or these can be jammed without effecting the sensors of the target ship overly much. ECM isn't just EMP or jamming, but a combination of many things to deny the enemy information on the battlefield.
Hmm. Not sure on this one, I can't find anything in the Battlefleet gothic rulebook.
Well, for communications they use the astropaths, of course, but I don't know if they use them in targeting.
So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?
You cheat, you edited that out!
Now I just sound crazy!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, was talking to metallifan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is an honest question Norade. Are you arguing that:
1) Star Wars shields are better than Imperium shields?
2) Imperial weaponry is better than Imperium weaponry?
3) Imperial's can attack and move without detection?
Emperors Faithful wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post: This is an honest question Norade. Are you arguing that:
1) Star Wars shields are better than Imperium shields?
2) Imperial weaponry is better than Imperium weaponry?
3) Imperial's can attack and move without detection?
1) No, though I have no numbers for the Imperium thus far and can't establish the facts.
2) Yes, based on evidence I have prevented. I will change my stance if counter evidence with numbers is presented. I will not accept virus bomb will kill death star because it contains air (An example from a few pages back) as evidence.
3) Yes, Hyperdrive is, on average, much faster than warp (I will provide numbers when I find them) and without Interdictors and sensors able to see into hyperspace they have no way to stop or track a ship in hyperspace. This will allow the Galactice Empire (GE) to attack undefended worlds as long as they use probe droids (Use established in Empire Strikes Back) to keep intelligence fresh. Using this speed also allows rapid response to attack with overwhelming force. Greater accuracy and control of the exit from hyperspace means less confusion post FTL transit than with warp.
1) Shields work vastly differently. They lack the finnese of Imperial ships (whose shields "hug" the ship I think) but are extremely powerful where they are placed. They often leave flanks or such exposed to power the shields where the fighting is going on.
2)Okay, the is an example of Imperial (moreso Space Amrine) lance weaponry tearing a planet apart (ACTUALLy destroying it death star stlye) when the Night Lords (1 legions navy worth) aimed all thier weapons at a single point against thier own planet.
3) Warp works completly differently. Hyperdrive IS faster, but if Imperial Ships were in Imperium space, they would probably have serious problems with the warp. I really think that the Star Wars hyperdrive is just a cleaner version of warp travel. Also, Warp travel is by no means reliably slow. In some cases, Imperium actually arrives at thier destination before they have left. Or a hundred years later. Or at the exact same moment. Not exactly relaible. Also, Psykers and Astropaths can detect movements of other fleets. (If they are biggish)
Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.
But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?
So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?
Well, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.
On that level, it would seem somewhere around 3 or 5 thousand kilometers per centimeter, and I believe lances actually have a range of around 20 centimeters.
Torpedoes have a different set of rules, I think they move across the battlefield in large groups or something.
When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.
I think that the IoM could get away with much larger heresy and sneakiness than that. Or at least they could if there wasn't an entire sector of the IoM devoting to rooting out these sort of things. Thus, the Planet Killers and large weapons of the IoM are made legally and with much less hassle as all of the sneakiness is bypassed by it being sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra or some higher force and is made quicker and more efficiently.
Also, on the subject of sheilds, most space marine ships have full shields. I got this information from Graham McNeils Ultramarine series as it describes the battle barges and strike cruisers of having full round sheilds. also you do not have to lower them to fire out of them.
Also, there are chaos marines built for seiging things. Iron Warriors. As i'm sure your aware, they are masters of seige and can penetrate almost any enemy stronghold, even the impregnable-Storm of Iron, Graham McNeil. The Iron Warriors have access to extensive weaponry capable of destroying most things and also have many planetary weapons that can break through sheilds. The sheild breaking weaponry was taken from Deus Encarmine by James Swallow or Dark Apostle, i'm not sure which. It decribes a scence where a weapon of the Iron Warriors, a mine is able to destroy the battle barge at full strenghth with one blast. They bypass this mine field with a failsafe but it proves that the Iron Warriors have access to sheild bypassing weaponry and advanced seige warfare tactics.
Emperors Faithful wrote:1) Shields work vastly differently. They lack the finnese of Imperial ships (whose shields "hug" the ship I think) but are extremely powerful where they are placed. They often leave flanks or such exposed to power the shields where the fighting is going on.
Shields the leave a flank exposed invite torpedo armed fighters and torpedo boats to make attack runs on unshielded regions, that is their primary goal in the universe and dog fighting is a result of counters to this tactic.
2)Okay, the is an example of Imperial (more so Space Marine) lance weaponry tearing a planet apart (Actually destroying it death star style) when the Night Lords (1 legions navy worth) aimed all their weapons at a single point against their own planet.
Can I please get a description or a quote on this? Even a page number and a book so I can look this up myself later.
3) Warp works completly differently. Hyperdrive IS faster, but if Imperial Ships were in Imperium space, they would probably have serious problems with the warp. I really think that the Star Wars hyperdrive is just a cleaner version of warp travel. Also, Warp travel is by no means reliably slow. In some cases, Imperium actually arrives at thier destination before they have left. Or a hundred years later. Or at the exact same moment. Not exactly relaible. Also, Psykers and Astropaths can detect movements of other fleets. (If they are biggish)
Hyperdrive =/= Warp, they are two completely different things. Hyperspace is stated to transform a vessel into Tachyons and shunt them into a sort of mirrored dimension where mass shadows from gravity and energy are transferred though, but only on a large scale. Warp doesn't seem to work the same way so you would need to show them being the same to convince me that they use the same methods to travel. Also arriving in an unpredictable fashion doesn't seem like an advantage as it makes planning very difficult. We also have no evidence that Psykers could detect ships in hyperspace.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.
But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?
So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?
Well, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.
On that level, it would seem somewhere around 3 or 5 thousand kilometers per centimeter, and I believe lances actually have a range of around 20 centimeters.
Torpedoes have a different set of rules, I think they move across the battlefield in large groups or something.
So lances have between a 60,000km and a 100,000km range where as turbolasers have a maximum range of 179,875,475km (10 light minutes). I do not know typical combat ranges, but due to some strange properties, turbolasers seem to have a fixed time to target and not a fixed speed (Google Curtis Saxton and find out what I mean, it is beyond me to explain it) so it would likely be dependent on that effect. We also know that fighters can swiftly accelerate to 90% of the speed of light so I would say light seconds (299,792 km = 1 light second) would be a range with 10 light seconds being a rough maximum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great Unlclean One wrote:Just something I noticed on page 5-
When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.
I think that the IoM could get away with much larger heresy and sneakiness than that. Or at least they could if there wasn't an entire sector of the IoM devoting to rooting out these sort of things. Thus, the Planet Killers and large weapons of the IoM are made legally and with much less hassle as all of the sneakiness is bypassed by it being sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra or some higher force and is made quicker and more efficiently.
That was an example to the GE in industrial capacity, if they can do it in decade (From prototype to finshed design with delays) in secret for the first DS, and in under a year for what was finished on the second DS, think of what they can do in public on a larger scale? As well they could have been kept secret the way our government keeps things secret to hide the prohect from enemies. As for routing things out the ISB, COMPNOR, and the like are the GE's equivalent and they work very well, in fact they likely played a big part in keeping the projects secret.
Also, on the subject of sheilds, most space marine ships have full shields. I got this information from Graham McNeils Ultramarine series as it describes the battle barges and strike cruisers of having full round sheilds. also you do not have to lower them to fire out of them.
Thanks for the correction, I wasn't really up-to-speed on that facet of IoM tech and this is the first answer I have gained from my questions on it.
Also, there are chaos marines built for seiging things. Iron Warriors. As i'm sure your aware, they are masters of seige and can penetrate almost any enemy stronghold, even the impregnable-Storm of Iron, Graham McNeil. The Iron Warriors have access to extensive weaponry capable of destroying most things and also have many planetary weapons that can break through sheilds. The sheild breaking weaponry was taken from Deus Encarmine by James Swallow or Dark Apostle, i'm not sure which. It decribes a scence where a weapon of the Iron Warriors, a mine is able to destroy the battle barge at full strenghth with one blast. They bypass this mine field with a failsafe but it proves that the Iron Warriors have access to sheild bypassing weaponry and advanced seige warfare tactics.
We need to know how strong and by what mechanisms the shields defend before we can tell if such a shield bypass would effect an ISD. The same goes for sieges, just because a modern marine team can siege a small taliban fort doesn't mean that can siege a large city. We need numbers for the type of armor they penetrated, its strength and thickness, the effectiveness of shields against them before we can get started on the Iron Warriors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.
But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?
They would transfer at the same efficiency as a normal blast so even if we say that's only 1% that would give a full powered blast about 48 teratons of force, and I think we can agree that 10% is really low-balling things. Keep in mind that this is for an ISD with an estimated total reactor capacity of 2 × 10e25 watts and a bolt that is only 2 x 10e23 watts and also assuming that if it takes a bolt a full second to strike, so we can agree I'm being generous here by a wide margin. Now think of what an SSD we get an output of 7.73 × 10e26 watts and a shot of 7.73 x 10e24 watts raising our numbers even higher.
Norade, you keep asking for numbers that don't exist on BOTH sides. Those sheilds (directed at one point as they are) would be more than enough to stave of the attacks from the ships. Yes, it is vulnerable to torpedoes, but you underestimate the amount of dedicated gun crews made for the defense of such places. (not to mention fighters)
Distubance in the Force = Disturbance in the Warp? How can you not say that the two are somehow not connected. As I recall, the warp used to be benign and worked a lot like an interstellar highway, with the fall of eldar it became corrupted and dangerous.
Except that they do exists for Star Wars both from fan calculations based on video evidence and scenes from books that can be analyzed. We also have source books with hard numbers in them as of the RoTS: ICS. 40k has calculations derived from its books as well, but I am not well versed in them. However to say that the numbers don't exists shows a deep lack of knowledge.
As for point shields versus full hull shields you leave more exposed that way and stray shots past a point shield can end a fight. As well can point defense on an IoM vessel track at 90% of the speed of light? Also when do they normally face ships as small as GE fighters and munitions as small as a proton torpedo or concussion missile?
You can draw similarities between the force and the warp, but you can not prove that they are the same. So that would need to be set and agreed upon for each versus debate. Obviously if there is no warp in the GE then we get a situation where IoM ships are stuck at sub-light speeds due to not being able to warp.
On a related note it would seem that GE humans would have about as much warp signature as the Tau given the extreme rarity of Jedi and Sith. That would help protect them from the initial ravages of the warp.
Oh for @"£$ sake! Analyzed from movies?!? Are you serious? I would understand if someone IN THE MOVIE talked about thier tech, but people watching it? No. N...O.
Also, fighters moving 90% the speed of light would have NO WAY of accurate firing or bombing. Sure they could shoot, but not accurately aiming for any targets. And the gunners wouldn't NEED to aim. They just throw a lot of flakk out and will probably hit SUMFINK!
(Imperial Capital ships are renowned for having EXTREMELY lucky machine spirits).
Also, entirely unfair to just dismiss the warp and say IoM move at only sub-light speeds. That would be like me saying hyperdrive can't be used in 40k universe. Also, while hyperspace requires certain routes and lanes, in the Star Wars Universe warp travel would not be so restriced and could possibly attack planets at whim (without taking routes).
Finnally, there aren't many Jedi or Sith, but there are a lot of potoentials. And even the average human (both StarWarz and Imperium) registers in the warp.
Oh for @"£$ sake! Analyzed from movies?!? Are you serious? I would understand if someone IN THE MOVIE talked about their tech, but people watching it? No. N...O.
If you're not willing to accept on screen evidence for firepower, accuracy, and numbers you are a fool. To deny such evidence shows an unwillingness to have an even fight. Besides why would you value dialogue over actual observed use of technology?
Also, fighters moving 90% the speed of light would have NO WAY of accurate firing or bombing. Sure they could shoot, but not accurately aiming for any targets. And the gunners wouldn't NEED to aim. They just throw a lot of flakk out and will probably hit SUMFINK!
(Imperial Capital ships are renowned for having EXTREMELY lucky machine spirits).
Try targeting computers, if the IoM doesn't use ECM then they will have a rather easy time hitting. Also just saying flak and mis-spelling words doesn't equal kills they need to defeat armor and their is no reason to think that even a wall of flak will stop all missiles and laser fire and as you have said the shields are focused to an area leaving gaps where every hit will pile on a little more damage.
Also luck has nothing to do with this, either they have good targeting systems or they have poor ones. Luck can't be factored into a debate about technology anymore than it can be factored into an army list built on this site. We plan around averages, not luck or other factors.
Also, entirely unfair to just dismiss the warp and say IoM move at only sub-light speeds. That would be like me saying hyperdrive can't be used in 40k universe. Also, while hyperspace requires certain routes and lanes, in the Star Wars Universe warp travel would not be so restriced and could possibly attack planets at whim (without taking routes).
I posited that as one possible scenario to show how easy it is to shift the balance to one side. However we aren't talking about fair, we're talking about two universes and there is no evidence that their is a Warp in the GE. Thus you must find a counter or prove that they do have a warp, saying Force = Warp will not work. As well simply saying that Hyperdrive won't work when it isn't dependent on a form of magic t run it is idiotic at best and dishonest at worst.
As for hyperspace lanes, yes they're used to cut down on calculations of jump time as well as to allow for increased speeds as they need to worry less about obstacles in their path, but they aren't as restrictive as you think. Any clear path between systems and obstacles is a hyper route.
Finally, there aren't many Jedi or Sith, but there are a lot of potoentials. And even the average human (both StarWarz and Imperium) registers in the warp.
True, but they will need to exert more effort to break through to a culture that has a lower warp signature and doesn't worship them to consciously let them in. We also have no evidence of the warp working through a fully shielded vessel with no breaks in coverage. They still need to transfer energy through the shield and I'm unsure they can do that. We also don't know that the warp can touch a vessel hyperspace which is not at all warp based. We also don't know how a Gellar filed works so it could be possible that the GE has a device that can be re-purposed for that job, but for this scenario I will say they must go without.
Yeah, that is about accepted in the versus community right now. Though I still need to see numbers for lances and missiles from the IoM to really compare.
Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.
Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then mabye).
Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).
Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!
Emperors Faithful wrote:That is a problem because they vary so much.
They do, however people who have the books should post descriptions of lance strikes and cyclonic torpedoes in great detail.
Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.
First ff flying through a trench that fast seems like it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't blanketed in ECM. This was why the targeting computers were having such a hard time with the shot and Luke needed to use the force to make the shot. As far as them moving that fast it is written in the New Jedi Order series that they can and not contradicted by anything so they can, and it takes less fuel to accelerate to 90% of light than to go to hyperspace so it isn't even a huge fuel drain. Also it isn't as if they need to burn engines after that unless you think that spaceships constantly burn their engines in space...
As well you're being very ignorant in your assumptions in the matter and make statements with no backing, so please educate yourself before posting unfounded supposition. Right now it seems as if you're arguing for what you want to see rather than what is actually there.
Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then maybe).
For those with knowledge you certainly can, the energy to destroy and asteroid of a given size and composition with a given weapon is easy to determine by watching the movies and doing some simply physics based math. I suggest you read the asteroid calculation page to see exactly how this is done, before saying that it can't be.
Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).
Yes they have more size, but from the few calculations I have seen in the past (I'm having trouble digging through 40k calculations to find them again) it seems that for their size a Battle Barge has only the same power as an ISD.
Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!
You could say that, however the 40k books have many scenes of hyperbole in them, such as Marine chapter masters slicing through mountains. I will provide more examples as I find them, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. It could be that they're exaggerated, they also have a massive case of hero ships and character shielding in 40k and whether it is the Emperor's luck, writers fiat, or dumb luck it can't be brought into a debate. Now if it turns out that it ism simply good aim and you're describing it as luck with your poorly articulated wordings I will retract my statements.
The figures required are range, rate of fire and destructive capability against an established target. As the shields of both universes may be vastly different, the only useful information pertaining to capability is going to be planetary strikes.
What effect do various weapons have against planets and other bodies like asteroids?
Any other comparison is silly as the biggest SW ship may not be able to get through the shields of the smallest 40K ship or vice versa.
@Norade: Do you realise how fast the speed of light is? There is no possible way that Luke was going 90% the speed of light when he:
1) Spotted the rench
2) Went in the trench
3) Got shot at for a while
4) Aimed
5) Stoped aiming
6) Listened to Obi-Wan
7) Got saved by Han
8) Shot the torpedoes
9) Got the hell out of dodge.
At 90% of the speed of light, Luke would not have even had time to register the EXISTENCE of the tunnel below him. I'm not saying they can't, but they most certainly can[edit}N'T do it AND try to shoot the enemy with any accuracy.
Cadbren, you are right we do usually only establish power from known and quantifiable events to keep things as easy as possible. If you go back a page or two I posted links to calculations about Imperial-class Star Destroyers vaporizing asteroids which shows how the math was derived.
As for a universe that can't touch another one that is what Star Wars vs Star Trek became. Trek was so outmatched that a few ships could destroy them in short order without losses. It is silly to debate once that is known, but along the way it can be fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Emperor, I never said he was, I suggest reading my post again because I say that would be a terrible idea due to ECM and tight spaces. I agree that he wasn't going that fast in that scene, however we know from the books that X-Wings can achieve those speeds and they are used in combat, you not liking that fact doesn't make it any less true. The enemy being faced at the time, the Vong, didn't uses the same level of ECM, if any at all, as the DS was putting out though. However seeing as I know nothing of ECM in 40k and neither do you by the look of things, we can't say for sure if it would work, but it is worth noting anyway.
After consideration, I think I'd actually put the Empire as more likely to win, against the Imperium.
Not because of differences in space capabilities (as that's really sketchy as hell) so much as the differences in industry. The Imperium really controls less of the galaxy than the orks do, so they're kind of limited in that regard. Meanwhile, the Empire has some impressive city-planets, they seem to have a much better network of resources. The key then is the Empire's internal unity, but I think that with the Imperium acting the way it does, most of the Empire's subjects wouldn't have much to gain by defecting. (A third possible scenario would be that the Empire is overthrown by a sort of rebellion, while the Imperium is destroyed by the new Republic that follows. Probably not as likely as the Empire mainting control, but it's not out of the question.)
In a universe v universe battle in which the universes were united, the Emperor and Chaos joining forces - with the necrons, orks, and tyranids along for the ride - would be enough to destroy Episode 4 level Star Wars by a fair margin. Things such as omniscience, time travel, the ability to ignore the laws of physics, necron-level technology, and quintillions of troops make the 40k universe too powerful if united. (If they were united against the Star Wars galaxy at a different period I don't know. I'm not aware of any period that could take on the universe of 40k, but I'm not an expert on the Expanded Universe.)
In a free for all, I think the winner would either be The Emperor of Man reborn, Chaos, the necrons or possibly the Empire. I really have a hard time believing that Palpatine would be able to resist the corruption of Chaos, unless the Dark Side somehow overrides a possible claim (not necessarily probable, as corruption from both seems to entail many of the same things, and they seem to have similar goals). The reborn Emperor could pretty much reenact Star Wars in the formation of a rebellion, that's very speculative. The Empire's reliance on technology could make them The Dragon's bitch, but that's also very speculative, as we don't know much about him. Another possible outcome is that freebootin' Mandalorkians are made of awesome and win.
Orks control more galaxy than Imperium?!? HERESY!!! Infesting is not the same as control.
A more likely scenario than Empire winning is Chuck Norris rising from his thousand-year-old slumber and anihilating all with his awesome aura.
Lets look at it this way. There are 3 modes for combat. 1 is Space Battles (only ships), 2 is ranged weapons (both ground conflicts and boarding actions) and 3 is close combat (both ground and boarding actions).
No single aspect can excel entirely on it's own. (Blowing planets up from space is not going to forge an Empire that sucessfully).
1) Naval Battles : Still undecided.
2) Ranged Combat : Again, not quite clear, bot sides claiming victory.
3) Close Combat : Undeniably in favour of 40k.
The production means that even with parity and 1:1 loses that the GE wins. They can replace lost vessels quicker and many classes of ships are considered to be throw away items.
In ranged combat it's bolters and lasguns vs. blasters and ion guns and they each carry the same punch, but the delivery is different. The question is how they effect guard and space marines and how well stormtroopers and Imperial tanks hold up versus the IoM.
Stormies, based on the evidence shown in the movies will surviving bolter and lasgun rounds, but will likely be knocked unconscious for a time due to the impact. The Imperial army is a bit of an unknown, but we know that Imperial tanks are going to be much faster than the Imperiums and most have shields and that has to play a factor in the big picture on the ground.
In close, I would agree with you that 40k is better, but Star Wars does have counters, just not in large numbers. Though the have droids far above humans in strength and skill in specialized duelist droids as well as droids based off famous assassin droids.
StormTroopers would survive lasguns yes (well, mabye not on full auto), yet Boltguns tear through WALLS and would shred Storm Trooper armour. Pleez don't deny this ONE little thing (cue googly eyes)...pleez?
I'm not aware of any Imperial tanks at any large rate, but they probably would have shields (why didn't AT-AT, AT-ST's have shields?), but the Leman Russ's (and baneblades) would be far more resilient.
Also, why do you think the production is so great for GE?
Emperors Faithful wrote:That is a problem because they vary so much.
They do, however people who have the books should post descriptions of lance strikes and cyclonic torpedoes in great detail.
Lances are designed to pierce a ship's shields, and go through the ship. It's basically one big beam of "FREEM". Cyclonic Torpedoes are meant to more or less obliterate an enemy ship in a salvo, or wipe out all life on a planet with constant, sustained salvos. Any Space Marine or Inquisitorial warships large enough are almost guaranteed to be equipped with these. Most of the heavier Imperial Navy warships are equipped with them as well. Think of Cyclonic Torpedoes as the Deff' Star laser in missile form (And minus the destroying the planet part - these just turn it into a barren, lifeless rock). And no, Abbadon the Despoiler is not part of the Imperium. He was Captain of the Luna Wolves, and like the rest of his Legion, turned to Chaos during the great Heresy. He now leads the Black Legion and the armies of Chaos in the 13th Black Crusade. And yes, he does have a planet-blower-upper-Lance on his ship as was mentioned. If you can find the artist rendition of it in action from the 4th ed Chaos Codex, it's a beauty of a picture.
Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.
First ff flying through a trench that fast seems like it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't blanketed in ECM. This was why the targeting computers were having such a hard time with the shot and Luke needed to use the force to make the shot. As far as them moving that fast it is written in the New Jedi Order series that they can and not contradicted by anything so they can, and it takes less fuel to accelerate to 90% of light than to go to hyperspace so it isn't even a huge fuel drain. Also it isn't as if they need to burn engines after that unless you think that spaceships constantly burn their engines in space...
As well you're being very ignorant in your assumptions in the matter and make statements with no backing, so please educate yourself before posting unfounded supposition. Right now it seems as if you're arguing for what you want to see rather than what is actually there.
Woah woah. Before you start calling him ignorant, he's got a valid point in that it's highly doubtful (impossible even) that a fighter could've flown down a trench that full of obstacles, crossfire, and enemy craft, and not just crashed right into something. Force or no, the ship can only handle so well in it's maneuvers. If you were flying an old, outdated ship at 90% the speed of light down a trench that was maybe a few hundred metres wide and filled with towers, gun emplacements, pipes, and random blocks that don't do anything other than get in your way, I'm pretty sure you'd be smashing into something as you quickly moved to avoid hitting something else. Whatever source said that they werre flying as fast was likely just trying to glorify things a bit more. Yes those fighters are capable of travelling at the speed of light. But no, they did not fly anywhere near that fast in the trench, or they would've all crashed into various things within the first 100Km or so.
Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then maybe).
For those with knowledge you certainly can, the energy to destroy and asteroid of a given size and composition with a given weapon is easy to determine by watching the movies and doing some simply physics based math. I suggest you read the asteroid calculation page to see exactly how this is done, before saying that it can't be.
Asteroids always explode in Sci Fi movies. No matter what they're shot with. That's just the general rule. It's like Exploding Barrels in video games. If there're no exploding barrels, it's not a worthwhile game. It's just the way the world works.
Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).
Yes they have more size, but from the few calculations I have seen in the past (I'm having trouble digging through 40k calculations to find them again) it seems that for their size a Battle Barge has only the same power as an ISD.
That's because a Battle Barge is a Space Marine vessel equipped for drop-podding Marines and deploying Thunderhawks. It's hardly a naval combat vessel. It's weapons are mostly designed for defense of the ship, and to support the Marines as they make Planetfall. Imperial Navy ships are all about firepower, as they have dedicated transport ships. From what I've seen of ISD's in the movies and a few of the games, they lack a quantity of guns, instead focusing on a few powerful ones. The Imperium on the other hand... Well... Basically, the Imperium loves to make everything excessive. They've gone for both numbers and power at the expense of some speed. If they can pile it on, they will. for the most part, Imperial ships are little more than powerful weapon stations encased in a hull. If you've never seen a picture or video of an Imperial ship engaging an enemy, it's generally little more than a solid wall of battery fire. Imperial Ships don't mount a tonne of forward firing weapons. Most of them are on the sides of the ships. It seems at first like a disadvantage, but the thing is, they can also turn on the spot thanks to the fact that most of them are equipped with turning engines as well. It gives them sort of a "Turning Forklift" effect. From what I've seen of ISDs, they have to make an arc turn. This would leave them right open to be raked along their flanks as they were making a turn.
Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!
You could say that, however the 40k books have many scenes of hyperbole in them, such as Marine chapter masters slicing through mountains. I will provide more examples as I find them, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. It could be that they're exaggerated, they also have a massive case of hero ships and character shielding in 40k and whether it is the Emperor's luck, writers fiat, or dumb luck it can't be brought into a debate. Now if it turns out that it ism simply good aim and you're describing it as luck with your poorly articulated wordings I will retract my statements.
Things like that are often cases of folklore within the 40K background, and usually concern the Primarch, not necessarily the current chapter master of 10,000 years later. Most Space Marine Primarchs grew up on Feral Human Worlds, having been scattered by an unknown force throughout the galaxy. These worlds were once colonies of humanity but had been long since forgotten and they remained so until the Great Crusade, in which the Emperor reclaimed the galaxy. Being that the Primarchs were superhuman in every sense from the moment they were born, they naturally rose to positions of power and Legend. Some were even worshipped as gods by their primitive kinsmen. It's no suprise then, that the Space Wolves Chapter, for example, tell tales among themselves of the great feats of their Primarch, Leman Russ. Things like how Russ's warcry could shake the snow from mountain peaks the world over. How, with his strength, each day he could move the mountains into whatever arrangement he wished. Obviously these are just folk tales from a Space Marine Chapter rooted in Nordic Cultures, but they serve as a good example as to how intentional exaggeration of a scenario is common in 40K writings. Undoubtedly, Russ did let out his share of Warcries in his lifetime, but perhaps it only shook the snow from one mountain. And perhaps only because that mountain was on the very verge of Avalanche anyway. The stories are written with a dab of folklore in them to sort of make the reader feel present in the story, instead of leaving them with just text on paper.
As for the Navy ships, when you consider the billions, even trillions, (And likely even more than that, size and population of the Imperium considered) of ships the Imperium is fielding at any time, the number of lucky shots that are made on a daily basis doesn't seem so miraculous. It's like pool - If you play pool for 2 weeks, and you get 1 or 2 impossibly lucky fluke shots every second game you play, that seems like a pretty good number of flukes in the span of 2 weeks. But fast forward twenty years. Let's say you're still avidly playing pool. You're still averaging 1 or 2 fluke shots every second or third game. But total up the number or times you've played the game and not gotten any fluke shots, and suddenly your number of flukes to your number of non-flukes seems pretty insignifigant.
Essentially, it's a simple matter of ratios. Lucky shots to total "daily" naval engagements around the Imperium. Good luck finding any numbers for that. The Cadian Gate alone sees several hundred engagements per 24h segment
As for Storm Troopers surviving Bolters... put it this way... If they're killed by a lasgun/blaster in the movies, then a Bolter, which doubles as an anti LAV weapon, will explode them. Bolters are essentially small-scale missile launchers with fully auto, semi auto, and single round settings. A bolter round is designed as such:
Round is fired. Bolter Rounds make use of a gas-powered self-propulsion system in the rear of the shell. This means that the round will not lose velocity after leaving the barrel, and infact will actually start gaining speed for a short time after a few dozen feet.
Round impacts target. Bolter rounds are not designed to explode on impact. When it hits the target, it acts like a slug, punching through an enemy soldier's armour. Assuming the round does not simply pass clean through it's target, it becomes lodged in the opponent's body, wherein it stops moving and detonates
Round stops moving, detonates. The Bolter round is designed to explode only after it stops moving. To a living organism, this is a horrible, and not always immediate, way to die. The round explodes inside the enemy's body, shredding their bones and internal organs with shrapnel. If a bolter is equipped with Frag rounds, then additional Frag-Tiles coating the nose of the shell all but liquefy the target's body. In an LAV (Light Armoured Vehicle) a Bolter round can be used as a deadly fragmentation device, and a bolter shot through a closed top-hatch, window slit, or rear panel/deployment ramp has proven to be brutally effective in the absence of a frag grenade or a missile launcher for dispatching crew and/or troop cargo.
Armour: IG/Stormtroopers are on Parity. But short of a tank, there's little in the Star Wars setting that could face up to a Space Marine. They've multiples of several organs. They spit acid. They can safely eat and digest -anything-. Literally. Anything. They have a thick carapace under their skin that acts as an interface and makes their power armour a living extension of their bodies. Their Power Armour itself is practically Ceramic, Rockcrete (Like Concrete on steroids), various layers of metallic and non-metallic plating, reinforced synthetic muscles, and a full hydraulic skeleton contained within the armour. And that's noting next to Terminator Armour, which IS akin to a tank. The GE could easily go toe to toe with the Imperial Guard and Navy, but facing a Marine Chapter, or even one company from that Chapter, they're probably better off just leaving well enough alone. Especially if we're talking about the Black Templars
That is another factor not being considered, boarding actions. They happen in Star Wars about as often as they happen in the real world, as in they usually resolve with the bigger ship seizing whatever they are looking for. In 40K boarding actions are like old school pirates vs. EITC or GB vs. the world, as in swords and pistols carry the day.
A battle barge holds the capability to deploy over 300 Space Marines vs their opponent. 100 Marines could easily handle the crews of one ISD, given the standard marine force multiplier of tight spaces, terrifying speed, and close combat power. While this is just the Space Marines alone, it is worth considering that a battlebarges greatest offensive weapon is its passengers.
That was an example to the GE in industrial capacity, if they can do it in decade (From prototype to finshed design with delays) in secret for the first DS, and in under a year for what was finished on the second DS, think of what they can do in public on a larger scale? As well they could have been kept secret the way our government keeps things secret to hide the prohect from enemies. As for routing things out the ISB, COMPNOR, and the like are the GE's equivalent and they work very well, in fact they likely played a big part in keeping the projects secret.
I understand that it demonstrates how long it took to make in secret but do we have a comparison to how long it would take to build not in secret but on a production line. Without that information then the speed at which they made it at secret could be months slower than if in the open and then the speed of secret is no longer that impressive.
The speed of production would still be the same but it would show that building it in secret would take a heavy toll on time therefore showing that the Empire doesn't have that good of an industry.
It all comes down to technological superiority. In general, Imperium technology is shoddy, unreliable, and more importantly, enginseers and tech priests don't actually know how a lot of their "thinking engines" were built and can barely manage to service the things. Additionally, that said, most technology is hidden from the public and kept secret.
In the Star Wars universe, an eight year old built a droid from scratch.
I vote Star Wars for obvious technological superiority.
I followed this thread for quite a while now and do not want to really get involved, I just wanted to say two things about these Star Wars numbers and data that is thrown around here.
1)
There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.
Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.
Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.
2)
Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!
Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!
And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.
In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.
There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.
The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.
My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.
(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)
I completely agree with Wizkatz, considering each universe is a work of fiction then there is probably going to be some incosistoncies where they have budget cut or different authors have made different comments.
Oh yea, that was awesome Wizkats, thanks for the information!
Thanks for the support. I edited the post a few times to get some quickly written numbers correct. I have to emphasise this again, Boba Fetts sonic/seismic charge stuff is supposed to be like a million hiroshima bombs. That guy could blow up whole planets with his little space scooter. Why bother headhunting on foot? Find out what city your target is in, hit the fire button once and back to the contractor.
(This is sarcasm. Therefore nobody needs to come up with "But he doesn't do it because that would interfere with imperial law too much and the consequences, the consequences!" stuff.)
In my opinion, Star Wars has some nice movies, even nice books, but the power level described in some of these...these...don't know "background books" that are quoted here...they just don't fit. For me, they destroy the credibility of the universe, especially when looked at how stuff is described in stories and seen in movies.
Witzkatz wrote:There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.
Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.
Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.
That isn't how things work, you can't say that if they had more budget things would have been X or Y, you have to use what is on screen for this debate as outlined in LucasArts official canon policy. Just because you don't feel something is realistic doesn't mean that is not how it happened. As well we have other sources, namely the oft mentioned Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross Sections that state the reactor output of a troop transport at 2 x10e23 watts, that is more than the entire United States used in 1995 (they used 9.53 × 10e19 Joules over the course of a year less than one shot from an Acclaators heavy guns!)
2)
Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!
Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!
And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.
In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.
There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.
The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.
So this comes down to you saying that you're unwilling to believe the numbers because they're too high for you to understand and your expectation that a reactor will always explode when breached. First off some asteroids release as much energy as that and they don't 'engulf the planet' though they do cause climate change on a wide scale when they hit the earth. You also have the expectation that a teraton is a huge amount on the grand scale when it really isn't, if you think one TT will clear an asteroid field what do you think a neutron star or a super nova could do? They contain far more energy and can't even destroy everything in a solar system.
I bet you're they type to think that a reactor in a nuclear sub will make a mushroom cloud if the ship is hit by a torpedo... Please educate yourself and quit arguing that the numbers just don't 'feel' right and do some research on the subject instead of just whining that they don't look right without having anything besides your say so to back yourself up.
My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.
(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)
Witzkatz out.
You claim that they're inconsistent, yet you have given not one fact on the issue and have thrown out only wild asses guess based on nothing. If you claim that a million Fat man bombs can destroy a planet find the math to back you up. Also your whinning in another post about hwo the numbers don't add up to the way you see things is dishonest as you provide no proof besides your feels (Awe I'm touched) and have obviously not done any math on the subject.
Yeah, I believe that you're an engineer with a doctorate such as Darth Wong (The owner of Stardestroyer.net) or maybe even an Astrophysicist like Curtis Saxton (Co-author of the RoTS:ICS)...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orkeosaurus wrote:I doubt a stormtrooper could survive a bolter.
Bolters are armor piercing shells. Which explode inside their target.
(Also, lolEwokArrows. )
I have provided evidence of a scene where a Stormie is hit with a spear, thrown across a room by the impact, and his armor is only nicked and he is only knocked about within his armor. While the explosive force may deal damage along the seams we do not know the properties of the underlying bodyglove.
As for 'lolEwokArrows', Space Marines have been dragged down by primative cultists as well so it isn't a big deal to me.
If stormtroopers can do it terminators can do it, 
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