They had one planet, where they were all Necronised. There couldn't have been more than a few billion of them to start with, yet they keep popping up all over the Galaxy.

Do Necrons have a way of capturing and Necronizing other people?

The pariah seem to be necronized humans. I think this could hint at some methods to recrut new necrons.

I don't have any background material on hand to support this at the moment, but I'm almost certain that one of the goals of the Necrons is to convert sentients by turning them into psuedo-sentient slaves. There's also been instances where they've taken sentients(non-blunts) prisoner...

Didn't the Necrontyr control a fiarly massive empire in the galaxy before they made their bargain with the C'Tan?

Caffran9 wrote:Didn't the Necrontyr control a fiarly massive empire in the galaxy before they made their bargain with the C'Tan?

As I understand it, they occupied a single planet.

IIRC in the necron Codex it says they had a small empire but could never seriously threaten the old ones due to their mastery of the webway.

The pariah uses human DNA IIRC

Comes from the 'Pariah' gene which is what creates Culexus Assassins. Essentially they are anti warp.

Nobody really knows anything about "Crons so that's a good question. I think the whole point of the Necrons is that they show up mysteriously and leave before bigger forces arrive. They may be able to "Necron-ize" people but I think they can actually teleport around.

Well they basically owned the Imperiums space before humans were even created.

Their on mars too...

Kilkrazy wrote:They had one planet, where they were all Necronised. There couldn't have been more than a few billion of them to start with, yet they keep popping up all over the Galaxy.

Do Necrons have a way of capturing and Necronizing other people?

Where does it say that the Necrontyr only had one planet when they were Necronized? After reading through the fluff in the codex, it says that the Necrontyr expanded out by colonizing other systems, and then were pushed back to occupy "the outer dark among the halo stars".

It's all vague and dramatic and completely avoids telling us how many worlds the Necrontyr or the Necron occupied at the time as far as I can tell.

I thought I read it somewhere.

I took it that since the cause of Necrons' premature death was the unstable radiation from their sun, if they had been able to leave their solar system they would have been relieved of this disability and would not have had any motive to sign up with the C'Tan.

For the same reason I always assumed they only had one planet.

One you may not have taken into consideration is that its very rare for a necron to actualy die. Even if they destroyed in battle and can't self repair they can be taken back to the tomb world and repaired. Plus as C'tan are about as close to gods as is possible they probably have other ways to "recruit" more crons.

If you played The Dark Crusade pc RTS game that was officially ratified by GW.

A research scientist is killed when the necrons awaken. He is then converted into a necron warrior and somehow retains his conscious.

I'm guessing necrons vaporize your body and trap your soul within metal skelatons they create with scarabs. Kind of like necrons, but they convert only your flesh and not your soul.

woah...

That guy was a pariah though, a specific form of Necron made from humans. The question seems to be about the presumably massive numbers of "standard" Necrons.

The necrons did have several worlds, I was always under the assumption that their bodies adapted to their sun, and they had short lives no matter what planet they lived on, but they did have a empire of some kind

They desperately wanted to change their own genetics to solve that problem, and the Old Ones were supposedly able to do so on a whim, which made the Necrontyr jealous.... but the Necron fluff isn't put together in any sort of logical manner, so you won't see any concrete answer beyond very basic facts.

I would imagine the C'tan had some way of making more Necrons back when they were fighting the Old Ones. Considering that was a massive war, I'd say there were tons of them floating around when the C'tan had to go hibernate or whatever. Without leadership the Necrons went into hibernation also on whatever planets they happened to be on at the time. Dunno... just a thought.

IIRC, leaving their home system and star didn't make them live any longer, as they were genetically predisposed to die early, as Railguns said.

I'm mostly curious as to why destroying the Culexus temple would have been so bad for the Eldar. The only thing I can think of is that by destroying the Temple, the Necrons would have had access to a lot more human pariahs since they'd stop being shipped out to be trained as assassins...

Didn't a Farseer finally find the temple, but chose not to destroy it for some reason? I suppose it may be a sort of race to find all of the nulls first. If the Imperium keeps collecting and turning them into Culexus Assassins then the Necrons are slowed significantly in their efforts to make a warp blocking race out of the normally warp-empowering humans and thus jamming up the ultimate goal of the Necrons to enslave the galaxy as cattle to the C'tan.

1hadhq wrote:The pariah seem to be necronized humans. I think this could hint at some methods to recruit new necrons.

yeah allthough it's hard to find actual written evidence for that, i believe so as well. They are a cyberbiokynogetic-polymerisation (oh yeah)
of humns and necrons..

In the first battle against the imperium did the necrons leave their dead behind? The one where they fought the Sisters. IIRC they took their dead when they finished. So unless you loot a tomb world where they phase out too I dont think you will kill a necron. As they will just be repaired.

Also what are tomb spyders? some kind of beast necronised?

Tomb spyders are completely mechanical constructs.

Didn't a Farseer finally find the temple, but chose not to destroy it for some reason?

Yep, that's the story I was referring to. He was about to push the button, but when he looked into the future to check the consequenses, all he could see was his Craftworld in ruins. I guess it's better for the Eldar for all those pariahs to be in Imperial hands than with the Necrons!

Necrons don't exactly field *huge* armies... a few billion nigh-indestructible Ahnuld Schwarzennegers spread through the galaxy is still a sizeable force; I can realistically believe they are just the Necrontyr.

I think the problem with that line of reasoning is that people appear to be stumbling over tomb worlds left and right. It's hard to explain all these cache's of warriors coming from a single planetary population.

But Tombworlds arent homeworlds.

I doubt the necrons used their bases like other races do.
They wanted to sleep undisturbed, therefore choose less inhabitable planets.
Thus, a tombworld is sort of a military base.

Now any greatscale war, especially galaxywide, would spread a force over many strategic strongpoints.

IMO to stumble over necron bases isnt so surprising.

The descriptions of most tomb worlds don't read like small military outposts but large sprawling complexes housing hundreds of thousands, even millions of necrons.

If they are small complexes stumbling across them would be amazing. Small outposts, buried deep underground on worlds with little to draw sapients to them. It would be amazing to run across one, much less the multitude that have been found. Stumbling across this many of them, along with the descriptions, seems to point to them being very very large structures making their discovery much more believable. All of which clashes with the idea of all the necrons still being the original ones from a singular homeworld.

Thousands of Necrons probably does constitute a small outpost to what was once an empire that spanned several star systems that used such advanced technology as intertialess stellar engines and gauss weaponry to fight a race of psychic masters of biology that could appear anywhere in the galaxy through a warp-highway made of psychokinetic concrete.

So we cant imagine the necrons coming from a single source, but were willing to believe humanity started from Terra
and is now on millions of worlds?

The necrons had maybe more time at their disposal than mankind had ( is 40k 40k AC ? ).

You're missing my point. It's in response to the OP that if they did originate from a single planet and that planetary population was the sum total of the necron then the preponderance of tomb worlds being discovered and their size points to them having some way to create new necrons.

Tyyr wrote:You're missing my point. It's in response to the OP that if they did originate from a single planet and that planetary population was the sum total of the necron then the preponderance of tomb worlds being discovered and their size points to them having some way to create new necrons.

Raiguns or I ?

If I am it, no i dont miss.

The OP assumed necrons did not get any fluff covering their reproduction.
Humans do not need fluff to tell us how they reproduce ( i hope...).

But isnt the assumption, that a necron cant be the source for more just wrong?

A digitalized personality could be duplicated and used for several necrons. The main benefit from tech is the easy reproduction/changes youre able to. And necrons are pure tech.

I think we can ignore the argument of a single homeworld and move on to:
-how the necrons got their number up to keep the war going?

My point would be:

- original necron
- copy it thousandfold
- enough space robots to conquer the galaxy

You may not need the original to fight, but as template to create more.

Mutlipliers FTW.....

1hadhq wrote:So we cant imagine the necrons coming from a single source, but were willing to believe humanity started from Terra
and is now on millions of worlds?

The necrons had maybe more time at their disposal than mankind had ( is 40k 40k AC ? ).

As I understood things, Necrons originated on a single planet, were translated into Necrons (much like people start getting made into Cybermen in Doctor Who) then kill all the sentient life in the galaxy and go to sleep for six billion years or something, during which time they do nothing.

Generalian wrote:
I'm guessing necrons vaporize your body and trap your soul within metal skelatons they create with scarabs. Kind of like necrons, but they convert only your flesh and not your soul.

Excuse me...what?

with a hazy memory: the necrons did orginate from a single planet. personally i would guess that they had colisised their own star system (so they had several planets of "people") when their sun began to die. they make their pact with the devil and were "necronised".
they then fought against the old ones alongside the C'Tan. once again, im guessing that at this point they were spread across the galaxy.
they were then awoken friom their slumber.
secondly:
when damage sufficently they will phase out to repair themselves. when this is not possible they are placed into statis until a new body can be created or their current body. if a new body is created their conscious is then transfered into their new body. this has the effect of degrading the indicidual necrons consciousness so repeated 'deaths' equals less 'independant thought'
i think that sums it up as i said its from my memory and i cant remember where its from oringally

Sorry to be a donkey cave, but hey there's only a million or so spehs marines and they seem to be everywhere! (hurr! )

So perhaps it's not too surpriseing that a couple of billion necrons, who can teleport, pop up all over the place too.

And I can see the point people make about self repairing necrons too, they always seem to come back.

Don't tell me you fell for the Imperial propaganda too?

There are zillions of Space Marines.

On page 11 of the necron codex it says that after the sisters fought the necrons no trace of the enemy was found, so basically they pick up their dead after a fight. On page 24 in the necrontyr part it says that they colonized other planets, so they did in fact have something like an empire.

P.s. I have the codex your arguments are invalid.

I can't remember where, but there was some possibly unofficial fluff establishing that Necrons harvest sentients for their bioelectricity(yes, sounds like The Matrix, I know, but I'm quite sure that fluff is out there).

Anyway, I agree with Flailing Flagellant(?). There have simply been too many tombs discovered, each one housing countless 'crons., for the single planet theory to hold. I'm quite sure they didn't have some interstellar empire, but once their "allegiance" with the C'tan was solidified, they began conquering and harvesting in wholesale.

The codex states that the spread of the necrontyr was before the deal with the c'tan, that's how they made contact with the eldar.

Um, made contact with the Eldar? The Eldar wouldn't have even existed in the time of Necrontyr.

They did, they were created to fight the C'Tan.

Maybe there is some sort of large scale teleporter array in the tombworlds. They're big to hold the technology, and they each have a standing guard of a few thousand holding the entrance area. If that group is insufficient to deal with the threat, more necrons are teleported in from other tombworlds.

Hey, a highly mobile force works for marines, with similar numbers. *snickers*

I believe that after the first Necrontyr were turned, they began to create more mechanical Necrons, to the point where they are purely machines. The few remaining "turned" Necrons (Those who gave up their fleshy bodies) are amongst the ranks of the "elites" (Immortals, Destroyers, etc.) excluding Pariahs, of course.

It should also be noted that, and although it's "unofficial", almost every single fluff account of a Necron incursion stresses endless numbers.

It could just when they leave a certain part of the battlefield they necron repair themselves thus endless numbers.

Also Ive read somewere that the tombworlds work like a bee hive to a certain point, there's the mining lord,fighting and a couple others that do other stuff but when one lord is destroyed and there is none to take its place the others function wierd aka the lord that makes more machines die but the miner still continues to mine even though there's nothing to do with it.

On some worlds they use it to train guards aka crons go to the same place same time each day, they were told there by there lord but then the lord dies so they keep doing it so Old Commy tells the guard to shoot at them and train them the guard go home necrons repair and go home, tomorrow it happens again.

This may sound dumb but what are Necrontyr, I know they are the orriginal Necrons but what are they?

The Necrontyr are an alien race from the same time as the old ones and had a realy short life expatacnty (spelling?), and tried to off the old ones and insert the rest of necron fluff from that point.

Necrons never, ever, ever die.

They warp out and are repaired or have their bodies replaced, but their mind remains intact. Necrontyr had a small empire, and thus probably had a galactic population of several hundred million or possibly a trillion or two.

Seeing as only, like, 10 tombworlds have been found, and with an exorbitant estimate that each has like a million necron in them, that still means you would have several thousand tomb worlds out there. Humans, being the prolific breeders they are, will run across them eventually, it's just a mathematical certainty.

Some people are talking about endless numbers here - but lets think of it this way. There are 6.5 billion people on earth (one planet) at this time. If we were all instantly converted into Necrons, that would be 6.5 BILLION necrons. That's 6.5 thousand million necrons. This is assuming that the Necrontyr were confined to one earth-sized planet with an earth-sized population.

Assuming the above is true, you could have 6,500 tomb worlds with a million necrons each. That is one of the things about Orks, Tyranids, and Crons that makes them so alien. Unlike Humans, there are no civilians. There are no non-combatants. EVERYTHING fights. Add in Monoliths, WBB, Spyders, swarms of scarabs and pariahs, as well as their teleportation technology and penchant for striking before large forces are gathered to oppose them and "endless numbers" becomes very real, very quickly.

I think that GW, with it's Imperium/Marinez centric fluff, has missed. The greatest wars of the galaxy don't involve humans at all. Endless Tyranid and Ork genocidal campaigns. Millions of Necrons endlessly battling trillions of Nids. In the 41st millenium, the Imperium doesn't know a damn thing about war.

Nachturnus wrote:Necrons never, ever, ever die.

They warp out and are repaired or have their bodies replaced, but their mind remains intact. Necrontyr had a small empire, and thus probably had a galactic population of several hundred million or possibly a trillion or two.

Seeing as only, like, 10 tombworlds have been found, and with an exorbitant estimate that each has like a million necron in them, that still means you would have several thousand tomb worlds out there. Humans, being the prolific breeders they are, will run across them eventually, it's just a mathematical certainty.

According to the fluff I remember, Necrons suffer degradation of their recorded memories and intelligence each time they are destroyed and transferred to a new body and sometimes due to systems failures.

Consequently the number of Necron 'souls' must be finite and falling, if they cannot replace their 'souls' from another source.

Let's assume the original Necron population was 6 billion, and there were 1,000,000 inhabitable worlds in the Galaxy, and they set up Tomb complexes on 1% of them.

That gives you a population of 60,000 Necrons per Tomb World, which isn't actually all that many. And there is only 1% chance of establishing a colony on a tomb world.

Can Necrons teleport between different solar systems?

Remember that they had (and still have) a very advanced dimensional technology, so thay can stockage lots and lots of people and weapons in a very little place. And thay had a very large imperium: if in the actual Earth lives near 6000 million people, imagine with some planets and over-poblationed.

Yes, I understand.

But, the Necrons never had a huge population, because of their short lifespan, and did not colonise many planets.

If we assume there were 60 billion Necrons, it is still only 600,000 on each of 10,000 Tomb world, or 60,000 on each 100,000 Tomb worlds which is only 10% of inhabitable worlds in the Galaxy.

Necrontyr had technology that makes human minds boggle. If we have hive worlds that have a population of 200+ billion, then the necrontyr certainly did.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, I understand.

But, the Necrons never had a huge population, because of their short lifespan, and did not colonise many planets.

If we assume there were 60 billion Necrons, it is still only 600,000 on each of 10,000 Tomb world, or 60,000 on each 100,000 Tomb worlds which is only 10% of inhabitable worlds in the Galaxy.

Maybe youre numbers of tomb worlds are not valid?
Any source ?

IIRC, Tomb worlds are often less inhabitable or really out on the fringes of the galaxy.

Could be wrong, but I thougth Tomb worlds were resting places for Ctan. And i doubt those starvampires had
that many members... at least in the age of man, there may be only 4 C'Tan.

The map in the BRB has just 15 tomb worlds, half of them inactive.
Now, 60.000.000.000 : 15 = 4.000.000.000
If we only know some, maybe 60.000.000.000 : 60 = 1.000.000.000

Seems enough necrons per world for me.

The Necrontyr actually had somewhat of a Galaxy-spanning Empire. It says somthing like that in their codex.
Also the Necrontyr had execptionally large birth and death rates. This reflects the many deaths inflicted by their star's radiation.

lordrevege wrote:The Necrontyr actually had somewhat of a Galaxy-spanning Empire. It says somthing like that in their codex.
Also the Necrontyr had execptionally large birth and death rates. This reflects the many deaths inflicted by their star's radiation.

Having a galaxy spanning empire seems logically inconsistent with being turned into Necrons and harvesting large amounts of sentient life throughout the galaxy. In the sense that having swarmed all over the galaxy, they would have killed most of the sentients before becoming Necrons with the mission of killing all sentients.

Having a large birth rate and a large death rate balance out to some degree. The important thing is how many Necrontyr were alive at the time the C'Tan changed them into Necrons.

I posited the number of tomb worlds for the sake of constructing a logical argument. We know there aren't heaps of tomb worlds or lots more would already have been discovered. This is another argument against the galaxy spanning empire theory.

Kilkrazy wrote:According to the fluff I remember, Necrons suffer degradation of their recorded memories and intelligence each time they are destroyed and transferred to a new body and sometimes due to systems failures.

Consequently the number of Necron 'souls' must be finite and falling, if they cannot replace their 'souls' from another source.

What if the original Necron warriors had been intelligent and individualistic fighters and over the thousands of years of fighting and dieing the warriors had been reduced to the current soulless killing machines? That would fit the gradual degradation of memories and intelligence just as well while not reducing their numbers or current effectiveness. Really, it might even be more horrific than losing all of their soul and individuality at the start.

Yes, that is the implication.

However, it poses the question of what happens once the lowest grade Necron souls become even further decayed. There must be a point at which they are incapable of operating any useful machinery.

Perhaps there's a "floor" on the possible decay, being it the soulless killing machines that can only obey without questions a Necron Lord.

Still, this theory would have to include said Lords, and then eventually all of the Necrons would be "standard Necron Warriors". Would at this point be lead by the C'tan themselves?

Kilkrazy wrote:But, the Necrons never had a huge population, because of their short lifespan, and did not colonise many planets.

Actually short lived species tend to have larger populations.

Look at Eldar, they are long lived, so have a small population.
Humans live a short time and have astounding population.

solkan wrote:What if the original Necron warriors had been intelligent and individualistic fighters and over the thousands of years of fighting and dieing the warriors had been reduced to the current soulless killing machines? That would fit the gradual degradation of memories and intelligence just as well while not reducing their numbers or current effectiveness. Really, it might even be more horrific than losing all of their soul and individuality at the start.

It is still possible that there are tombworlds out there have populations that haven't died very often so are still operating at full capacity.

I think it would be cool if in the new book you could have different varients of basic warriors,
the highly sapient versions (that still have a personnality, etc.)
and the ones that have died so often that they are mere automatons (glorified AIs, though I doubt they would ever become completely useless).

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:But, the Necrons never had a huge population, because of their short lifespan, and did not colonise many planets.

Actually short lived species tend to have larger populations.

Look at Eldar, they are long lived, so have a small population.
Humans live a short time and have astounding population.

solkan wrote:What if the original Necron warriors had been intelligent and individualistic fighters and over the thousands of years of fighting and dieing the warriors had been reduced to the current soulless killing machines? That would fit the gradual degradation of memories and intelligence just as well while not reducing their numbers or current effectiveness. Really, it might even be more horrific than losing all of their soul and individuality at the start.

It is still possible that there are tombworlds out there have populations that haven't died very often so are still operating at full capacity.

I think it would be cool if in the new book you could have different varients of basic warriors,
the highly sapient versions (that still have a personnality, etc.)
and the ones that have died so often that they are mere automatons (glorified AIs, though I doubt they would ever become completely useless).

I can see people complaining already: you turned necrons from marines that get back up to Chaos legions that get back up. You've got the tough ones, the choppy ones, the shooty ones.... I like your idea though

I alway thought they were just like a Galatic Fruit-Cake.
There is only a small number of them and just just phase out and go the the next place they are unwanted

Can we say Star Treck Borg!

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is the implication.

However, it poses the question of what happens once the lowest grade Necron souls become even further decayed. There must be a point at which they are incapable of operating any useful machinery.

Maybe I've just been taking the whole "soulless killing machine" thing too literally to see a problem, rather than assuming that by "soulless" they meant "99% soul free".

Ya know, like Dick Cheney.

or chuck norris

They had one planet, where they were all Necronised. There couldn't have been more than a few billion of them to start with, yet they keep popping up all over the Galaxy.

Do Necrons have a way of capturing and Necronizing other people?

Thats pretty many if you ask me, its kind of as many as there are eldar left I´d say.

I took it that since the cause of Necrons' premature death was the unstable radiation from their sun, if they had been able to leave their solar system they would have been relieved of this disability and would not have had any motive to sign up with the C'Tan.

Genetic evolution made then predisposed to die early, kinda like the Tau I guess.
The reason was presumably the high background radiation. Maybe the race needed to die of young in order to make sure they procreate young, before background radiation destroyed to much of the genetic material passed through to further generations. It makes sense.
This brings some issues though.

1:
If the gene that codes your death can be identified even with our own todays science how come the super advanced necrontyrs couldnt do it?
They were the undisputed masters of science and the rulers of matter fcol.
Hence there shouldnt be any problem for them to alter som of their genetics to enable a longer life.

2:
Even we can protect ourselves from background radiation so how come the super advanced necrontyr could not?

3:
A short lifespan means a short time to develope intelectual skills like sciences etc.
Strange that a race can achieve so much in such a short lifespan.
They must have matured super fast and possessed very high intellects.

4: Were they colour blind? I mean its all black black black and yet more black...with some green lights thrown into it. Geez, colour blind or goths the lot of them.

Pyriel- wrote:
1:
If the gene that codes your death can be identified even with our own todays science how come the super advanced necrontyrs couldnt do it?
They were the undisputed masters of science and the rulers of matter fcol.
Hence there shouldnt be any problem for them to alter som of their genetics to enable a longer life.

2:
Even we can protect ourselves from background radiation so how come the super advanced necrontyr could not?

3:
A short lifespan means a short time to develope intelectual skills like sciences etc.
Strange that a race can achieve so much in such a short lifespan.
They must have matured super fast and possessed very high intellects.

4: Were they colour blind? I mean its all black black black and yet more black...with some green lights thrown into it. Geez, colour blind or goths the lot of them.

1) Also consider that the radiation might have had some problems with their ability to mess with genetics. Plus, their absolute hatred of the Old Ones might have persuaded them from helping themselves to harming others, thus their technology advancing swiftly towards one thing as opposed to another.

2) Background radiation is a little different than you're life source ironically killing you. Unless this background radiation is like living outside Chernobyl, which you're lifespan can be more than halved anyways.

3) We have relatively short lifespans, yet have done so much. I'm sure they had a decent record keeping system, allowing previously gained knowledge to be retained. Also, I don't believe they had faced the radiation since their inception, but later on.

4) While that's the standard color, i recall reading that the Necrons had to ability to adapt to their Tomb Worlds environment. So ones from a frozen world could be more white while ones from desert planets could be sandy.

As for the whole bit about an empire, I don't believe it was galaxy spanning, but it was probably spread out sparsely to be essentially a base from which to springboard attacks against
Old Ones. Plus the deal with the C'Tan was pretty close to the end of their civilization and before their entombment, so it is very plausible to have had sizable populations built up. Plus, Tomb Worlds not only house the active army, but the odies in which to transfer the consciousness of the other Necrons who have been damaged beyond repair. But consider how hard it is to be damaged that badly, because even if they can't get back up, they can be taken back for more extensive repairs.

Please allow me to shed some light on the issue here.

With regards to the number of planets Necrons have been found on, reports of hundreds of tomb worlds discovered by the Explorators of the Adeptus Mechnaicus over the millennia'

That's it. Hundreds, not thousands, or tens of thousands. Even if you assume that there are tomb worlds undiscovered, I doubt the number could feasibly be above four figures.

With regards to the Necrontyr expansion size, 'Once a proud race whose Empire spanned the stars.....Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch ships, clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets....the Necrontyr were pushed back until they became little more than an irritant to the Old Ones, a quiescent peril clinging to the outer dark among the halo stars...'

So I believe tha thaving no more than few thousand tomb world would be enough for several million Necrons at least on each one.

Also, when you kill a Necron, it phases out back to a tomb world where it is repaired and made ready for battle once again. The number of necrons never actually decreases, they just go back to the tomb for a ten minute repair, and are then sent back out to battle again. That's where the image of an endless tide comes from.

1) Also consider that the radiation might have had some problems with their ability to mess with genetics. Plus, their absolute hatred of the Old Ones might have persuaded them from helping themselves to harming others, thus their technology advancing swiftly towards one thing as opposed to another.

2) Background radiation is a little different than you're life source ironically killing you. Unless this background radiation is like living outside Chernobyl, which you're lifespan can be more than halved anyways.

3) We have relatively short lifespans, yet have done so much. I'm sure they had a decent record keeping system, allowing previously gained knowledge to be retained. Also, I don't believe they had faced the radiation since their inception, but later on.

4) While that's the standard color, i recall reading that the Necrons had to ability to adapt to their Tomb Worlds environment. So ones from a frozen world could be more white while ones from desert planets could be sandy.

As for the whole bit about an empire, I don't believe it was galaxy spanning, but it was probably spread out sparsely to be essentially a base from which to springboard attacks against
Old Ones. Plus the deal with the C'Tan was pretty close to the end of their civilization and before their entombment, so it is very plausible to have had sizable populations built up. Plus, Tomb Worlds not only house the active army, but the odies in which to transfer the consciousness of the other Necrons who have been damaged beyond repair. But consider how hard it is to be damaged that badly, because even if they can't get back up, they can be taken back for more extensive repairs.

1: is not an issue as shielding from rdiation is far to easy. There is no problem for an advanced race to shield from background radiation as there wouldnt be any problem altering their genetic code.

2: Its still called background radiation so?
And still is easily to shield from, it would be even for us on a limited scale.

3: How do you know? Compared to what/whom?
Are you talking about todays humans or humans in the 40k universe?
Also, we are the masters of always repeating history, no matter records.
Remember, the necrontyr are portraited kind of like us with our basic flaws, warfare, egoism, class dividing struggel for power etc etc.
All those attributes contribute to hiding records and history from the coming generations. History is what teaches us IF we are able to learn from it (and we are not) but and more importantly, history is written by the victors!

4: That is called camoflage.
A simple pragmatic or necessary thing to do, nothing to do with art or the ability to perceive colours. (no you dont have to be able to see colours to be able to apply colouration to certain things).


And yes, I agree that they would have had a large population no matter the living conditions. Look at us, half the world lives of bread crumbs and dirty water and still spawns like crazy.
If they did like we do and used the adequate idiotic socialist programs they could have enabled their race to literarily breed like flies.

But what puzzles me is the graduate degration of their consciousness as they get damaged and repaired over and over again. I mean what is it that actually brakes in something that can be repaired 100%? If they were in vacuum I would have understood it (vacuum abrasion) but they are hidden in freaking caves. Maybe slowly released sulfur and carbon based gasses do their thing over time?

reports of hundreds of tomb worlds discovered by the Explorators of the Adeptus Mechnaicus over the millennia'

That's it. Hundreds, not thousands, or tens of thousands.

The key word here is "discovered".
There is by definition an unknown that remain undiscovered.

Them leaving in slow ships clad in steel is also a contradiction.
A race that has the power to build ark ships and move consciousness to robotic bodies still dont know how to move faster then light? I mean thats like saying we invented the jet plane but didnt know how to make the wheel.

As for the old ones and their psychic mastery well, the eldar amonghst otehrs, were given a fraction of that ability as I understand it and they are proficient in reading the future but the old ones themselves couldnt see their own downfall, hmm.

Certainly the necron background has big holes in its logic and makes for some interessting observations and debate.

Could they have had a gradual shift into necrons, with the true nature of those changed concealed from the rest?

A group of necrontyr get converted to necrons, and very quickly whisked away to whatever battlefield they're heading for. Those necrontyr back home think they're heroes or similar (as many armed forces today are treated by civilians.

The necrontyr keep breeding, and the gradual shift continues. Until they realise what is going on, so those left get turned all at once, or their star is about to die and the rest of them convert in a big hurry to survive.

Pyriel, I suggest that you read the following sentence next time you quote one of my posts. You'll notice I did actually account for there being undiscovered ones.

As to steel ships, since when was steel 'living metal'? I'm pretty sure my radiator isn't alive.

As for the ark ships, those were preludes to their faster than light travel, which came about around the same time the C'Tan manifested. It's all in the fluff section of the codex if you go take a look.

As to steel ships, since when was steel 'living metal'? I'm pretty sure my radiator isn't alive.

Here, let me requote you:

clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets.

Seems like your radiator does indeed live. Check it twice the next time.

Ergo, my point still stands. They beguin to colonise other worlds already possessing magic levels of technology and STILL they cant fly faster or fix the basic problems with radiation shieldingand their genome.
Weird.

....I'm sorry? How does 'living metal' = steel? I never once said the word steel, so I have no idea where you're pulling this from. That quote you just pulled says, 'clad in living metal'. The same kind of metal the Necrons in current day 40K are made from. Are you saying the Necron's living metal is steel? You're really confusing me here.

And I'm not too sure how not being able to do genetic engineering and reconstruction on large scale prevents you from making settlements on other planets. Theoretically, we could go and colonise Mars right now if we felt like it, but we still can't cure cancer.

Seems we misunderstood one another on the metal wording, big deal.


And do you really KNOW we cant cure cancer?
I dont but what I do know is that IF we could do so today we would never,ever allow that to be known to the public since curing cancer would be the single most un-economical thing to hit the planet since healthy food and excercise.

And no we cant colonize mars today, it costs to much to move even 10 persons there on a "quick" visit not to mention its not even tested yet.
And that is mars with a handful of people, far from moving half the civilization a bucketloads of lightyears away now is it.

Again, if you have the tech and ability to build ark ships, relocate consciousness into artificial bodies and make living metal then how come simple radiation shielding and dna restructuring (something we even today can partially do on a basic level) is impossible?
The ne´crontyr must have been the smartest dumbguys in the whole existence.

We can make spaceships that take us to the moon, rovers that have traveled or are on route to every planet in our solar system, and yet we have massive difficulty looking at the bottom of our own ocean and know next to nothing about what is down there.

Logically, looking in the ocean should be an easier task. It is quite possible for a civilization to be advanced in one area and deficient in another. In this case, a fair bit of the technology overlaps, so we really have less excuse than the Necrontyr, since space travel and genetic engineering have next to no overlap. They were good at one and not at another. I'm failing to see how this is them being 'stupid'.

I'm sorry, but how did you EVER get steel out of what I said? I think the one who's misunderstanding here sir, is you.

Technically, we could colonise mars today. If we constructed a space elevator with carbon nanotubes, we could shift all the materials we needed to space relatively cheaply. From there, there are several designs for large 'mother ships' that mould jet back and forth across the galaxy. You see, once you start moving in space, you don't stop, as there's no air resistance. It actually doesn't take a whole lot of energy to maneouvre once you're free of gravity. However, that's a whole other discussion.

And yes, I REALLY KNOW we can't cure cancer. If you go and look through all the medical textbooks you like, humanity cannot cure cancer right now. That's not to say it won't be possible in the future, but right now, no, we cannot.

Living metal-we can make and manipulate uranium. So what? Heck, the romans had metalworkers. You cannot really postulate how much tech living metal takes to develop or create, because it doesn't exist in our world. Bad comparison there.

As for relocating consciousness into metal bodies, it was the C'Tan that did that round about the same time they gave them faster than light travel.

As for genetic restructuring, you're applying the principle that their bodies were similar to ours, and thus relatively easily manipulated on a molecular level. As it's an alien species, this could well not be the case. Let's face it, can you reprogram the human body to not need oxygen? There are some things that are pretty hardwired in, no matter how good at genetic manipulation you are. And as Morgrim says, being proficient in one field of research doesn't not implicate mastery in another necessarily.

Ketara wrote:
With regards to the Necrontyr expansion size, 'Once a proud race whose Empire spanned the stars.....Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch ships, clad in living metal to resist the age long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets....the Necrontyr were pushed back until they became little more than an irritant to the Old Ones, a quiescent peril clinging to the outer dark among the halo stars...'

Also, in the Soul Drinkers novel they went into the veiled region aka the halo zone to find fuel. They found many active tomb worlds and long abandoned human settlements - considering the imperium doesn't go in the halo zone, this perhaps could be settlements from age of technology? Anyway, there are plenty of active tomb worlds in the halo zone, which is where the necrons were pushed back too.

No, we cannot make a space elevator with the current level of technology. I have friends in their final year of their Nanotechnology degree. There is no way current production methods can manufacture nanotubes that will perform that well. Granted, small scale tests suggest that one day they might, but that is assuming that their properties scale linearly, and that production methods are found to make nanotubes of sufficent length.


*science geek returns to box*

The Necrontyr colonized other worlds through vast tomb ships in which those where interred in sarcophagi. Not being very psyhic they did not use Warp travel instead their vessels are the only ones capable of approaching lightspeed. But this may have been after their conversion into the Necrons. Getting jealous of the near immortality of the Old Ones they found the star Vampires. So originally the 100 C'tan probably each took over a world or a system to feed off the Necrontyr.

Morgrim wrote:No, we cannot make a space elevator with the current level of technology. I have friends in their final year of their Nanotechnology degree. There is no way current production methods can manufacture nanotubes that will perform that well. Granted, small scale tests suggest that one day they might, but that is assuming that their properties scale linearly, and that production methods are found to make nanotubes of sufficent length.


*science geek returns to box*

I actually did some research on the topic in order to evaluate the feasibility of creatying military installations in space (War Studies student). They have actually created carbon nanotubes that could theoretically be strong enough for a space elevator, although they've only produced a very small amount of them. However, there are many other issues such as how to stop it wearing away through air friction, replace damaged sections, etc, that currently lack proper answers. However, research is ongoing, and I would be surprised if we haven't constructed one in fifty years.

We can make spaceships that take us to the moon, rovers that have traveled or are on route to every planet in our solar system, and yet we have massive difficulty looking at the bottom of our own ocean and know next to nothing about what is down there.

Not really, its all about economical gains.
This is the reason we know so little about the oceans and not our solar system.
When some money were finally thrown into the oceanic research the DSDP projects that popped up were like a brief waterfall of ocean information flooding our lack of data.
As soon as the funding stopped it reversed back to "we know nothing".

The lack of overlap is true but if you take it to the absurd levels of the necrontyr it becomes ridiculous.
Its like I would claim humans have discovered the means to travel to other planets but cannot cure a simple cold. Its absurd.

I'm sorry, but how did you EVER get steel out of what I said? I think the one who's misunderstanding here sir, is you.

Geesus H christ, talk about being stuck on an irrelevant misunderstanding, let it go man. I dont even know what the fuss is all about anymore, steel, metal?
So I mistook one single word in your text, you are right and I am wrong, you wrote something other then "steel" or "metal" or whatever it now was. Is your online-honour restored now?
Let it go now.

Technically, we could colonise mars today. If we constructed a space elevator with carbon nanotubes, we could shift all the materials we needed to space relatively cheaply. From there, there are several designs for large 'mother ships' that mould jet back and forth across the galaxy. You see, once you start moving in space, you don't stop, as there's no air resistance. It actually doesn't take a whole lot of energy to maneouvre once you're free of gravity. However, that's a whole other discussion.

No, "technically" we cannot do that today or even in the forseable future or else we would have solved the radioactive waste disposal problem "today" instead of risking future generations as well as have access to a money saving transport system to space from the super expensicve one we have now.
The materials we have are far from adequate to the task.

We havent solved all the danger issues even, there are issues with where said site would be situated (it must be on the exact true equator), we still havent figured out a fast way to produce the materials and there are physical issues that still must be solved. Corealis, wobbling etc.

And yes, I REALLY KNOW we can't cure cancer. If you go and look through all the medical textbooks you like, humanity cannot cure cancer right now. That's not to say it won't be possible in the future, but right now, no, we cannot

Thats interesting. "We" had microwave machines and jet planes looong before the "public" was even aware of that, it said so in ALL the books back then you know.
But sure, if you bring me proof that behind locked doors there arent things "we" dont know about then I´ll agree.

Besides you still havent deigned to answer the point of IF we could solve it, we still wouldnt use it.

Living metal-we can make and manipulate uranium. So what? Heck, the romans had metalworkers. You cannot really postulate how much tech living metal takes to develop or create, because it doesn't exist in our world. Bad comparison there.

So what?
Its light years apart, its like saying "military super carrier? So what, we can make a wooden sail boat!"

So we can semi-equal making living metal to our current gas centrifugal manipulation of atomic masses which is basic physics?
Can I have what you are smoking?

No I cant speculate how much tech it takes to make living metal but I can make a fairly calculated guess that making metal that stays liquid under most conditions, generated its own enegy by metabolizing god knows what AND is somehow imbued with self aware consciousness is a hell lot farther to the future then roman metal smiths and uranium. LOL
Remember, according to you we cant solve cancer but at the same time I cant assume we are far from creating self aware metals, well, I really dont know what to say.

As for relocating consciousness into metal bodies, it was the C'Tan that did that round about the same time they gave them faster than light travel.

Ah, so they magically got this super tech from their masters. Ok.
To bad they were so stupid that they didnt ask for the magic miracle cure for radiation shielding (you know, the super hi-tech dirt, lead and bricks they somehow forgot to science-gap-invent while being busy building living metal bodies and super ark ships).

As for genetic restructuring, you're applying the principle that their bodies were similar to ours, and thus relatively easily manipulated on a molecular level. As it's an alien species, this could well not be the case. Let's face it, can you reprogram the human body to not need oxygen? There are some things that are pretty hardwired in, no matter how good at genetic manipulation you are. And as Morgrim says, being proficient in one field of research doesn't not implicate mastery in another necessarily.

You are assuming quite much by equating mutation resistance to rewiring the whole organism to metabolise another energy carrier molecule.
You know I too can get you your level of insane comparisons to prove just about anything.
Please try and get some realism into your equations ok?

And Morgrim is wrong in one way,. Sure there can be science gaps on certain levels but not the humongous gaps he suggest are ok.
Again, it is fairly illogical that a civilisation that is also given a lot of "human" qualities (thus not entirely "alien") is expected to develop total mastery of the material universe and still not be able to change the properties of organic molecules.

I actually did some research on the topic in order to evaluate the feasibility of creatying military installations in space (War Studies student). They have actually created carbon nanotubes that could theoretically be strong enough for a space elevator, although they've only produced a very small amount of them.

Heh, the key word here is "theoretically"!
Also there is a certain amount of difference between "some research" and working on a degree in said subject.
You know I also did "some research" on the Iraq political situation so does that make me into an middle east expert or even give me credibility vs a true university student of the subject?
Hell no.
And I didnt do "some research" but actually studied physics, celest mechanics, chrystallography and material structural integrity on university level so yes that gives me the right to smile when I read some of the "theoretical" ideas and equation examples "some" people in here put forward such as equating small to micro scale material properties to macro scaled ditto based on "some research". (that gets a nice, big laugh from me actually).

Heh, the key word here is "theoretically"!
Also there is a certain amount of difference between "some research" and working on a degree in said subject.
You know I also did "some research" on the Iraq political situation so does that make me into an middle east expert or even give me credibility vs a true university student of the subject?
Hell no.
And I didnt do "some research" but actually studied physics, celest mechanics, chrystallography and material structural integrity on university level so yes that gives me the right to smile when I read some of the "theoretical" ideas and equation examples "some" people in here put forward such as equating small to micro scale material properties to macro scaled ditto based on "some research". (that gets a nice, big laugh from me actually).

That's genuinely interesting, if you strip out the sarcasm. From the research I conducted in my university library, it was said to be theoretically possible, but do you disagree? If so, why? Note here that I am genuinely interested. I'm not out to score points arguing on the net (remember, it's like running in the special olympics ), and if what I've read is wrong, I'm curious as to why this is the case.

You may laugh at my 'research', and proclaim loudly to the world that you have knowledge that is denied to us mortals, but I'd like to think that with a university library that specialises in various sciences, I'm a few steps above, 'some guy that read something on wikipedia'. I'd also like to think it qualifies me to hold an opinion to a certain extent. If proven wrong by someone with superior sources, I'll gladly change my opinion, but until then, I refuse to let you denigrate my work in order to boost your ego for some unknown reason.


EDIT: I did actually take the time to address each of your counter-arguments, but for some reason, they appear to have vanished after I clicked to post my response. As such, I simply cannot be bothered to type it all out again.

The war in heaven may have lasted millions of years, so necrons could have began with a single planet and expanded throughout the galaxy, which is the impression i always had. The original necrontyr were tricked by the Ctan into inhabiting metal bodies, i see no reason why they couldn't do that to anyone else. Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

jsullivanlaw wrote:Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

There are a number of things wrong with this statement. The Necrontyr didn't transfer their souls into their Necron bodies, it was just their Minds. And Necron Lords are necessarily the only ones to retain their intellect through the ages, they just died less often and thus have retained more of their intellect than their fellow warriors. (i.e. A Necron Lord who has died alot will have less of a personnality than a Necron Warrior who hasn't died very often.)

Though, I do agree that they should be able to C&P the intellects of the best Necron Warriors and increase their ranks exponentially.

Nanotubes, and why they cannot be used in futuristic space programs 101

-Making carbon nanotubes is difficult and expensive.
-The resulting nanotubes are anything but precise, generally having different widths and general properties, some becoming double walled.
-Technical limits restrict the maximum length of nanotubes to about 2cm. It is possible to go slightly beyond this, but that generally involves lots of mucking about with a force probe microscope and is done one nanotube at a time. The impracticality of this should be obvious.
-Perhaps most important, nanotubes lack the sheer tensile strength to withstand the forces that would be placed on a space elevator. They might be good. They are nowhere near that good. Again, in a completely theoretical 'if they do this at this scale they may be able to do that at that scale' manner, they may prove useful as a component of said elevator cable, but they are not the be all and end all. They're strings of carbon with more similarities to graphite than diamond. They're pretty easy to break. And even diamond is quite easy to shatter if you hit it along a crystal plane.

@Pyriel: Receiving the metal and virtually invincible bodies WAS the answer to radiation. IIRC, in the codex it states that the receiving of the bodies was the C'Tan's essential "bribe" drew the Necrons into yet another campaign against the Old Ones, this time under their banner. The Necrontyr had a hatred for all life forms since they viewed it as a weakness due to their problem with the radiation, so non-biological bodies was the perfect answer. Besides, they weren't at much of a position to bargain with them so much as to take a nice solution to the biggest problem, a.k.a. death, and then go fight the Old Ones with a pantheon of powerful gods on their side.

@Pyriel: Receiving the metal and virtually invincible bodies WAS the answer to radiation. IIRC, in the codex it states that the receiving of the bodies was the C'Tan's essential "bribe" drew the Necrons into yet another campaign against the Old Ones, this time under their banner. The Necrontyr had a hatred for all life forms since they viewed it as a weakness due to their problem with the radiation, so non-biological bodies was the perfect answer. Besides, they weren't at much of a position to bargain with them so much as to take a nice solution to the biggest problem, a.k.a. death, and then go fight the Old Ones with a pantheon of powerful gods on their side.

I know although I havent addressed this but now as you remind me it certainly ties in with the science gap and enourmous stupidity of the necrontyr.
Let me clearify:
They got metal bodies as a means to escape background radiation, ok.
for this they had to leave their home world, wage wars of never before seen scale, give up their living bodies (get rid of radiation danger in return for giving up feelings like taste, touch etc, thats pretty bizarre right there)
and in all means become slaves for ever!

Now all they had to do was ask the ctan how to build underground housings, produce bricks and melt lead (how they failed to think of that while being busy building space ships I dont know). Not to mention all the advanced means like I dont know, force fields etc to combat the radiation.

You understand where I´m coming from?
They were building freaking super space ships and still had to be "given" magical tech knowledge coupled with ridiculous drawbacks in order to solve a problem that freaking monkeys could have done.
This is what I mean by illogical science gaps and a story that just is left with to wide cracks to be believable.

The war in heaven may have lasted millions of years, so necrons could have began with a single planet and expanded throughout the galaxy, which is the impression i always had. The original necrontyr were tricked by the Ctan into inhabiting metal bodies, i see no reason why they couldn't do that to anyone else. Also, since only the Lord's retained their souls, couldn't they just build more necron warriors?

Hmm, I can swear reading somewhere that the basic necrons also retined their souls.
Wonder what they REALLY did offer to get them into the metal bodies though. The drawbacks are to big imo
The only thing the necrontyr truly wanted was a longer lifespan, somehting as I said, their tech level could have solved with ease.
Could it be that their jealousy was so big that they just did not care what happened to them as long as they could get the means to exact vengence?
Because there is quite frankly NO way what so ever that they couldnt have solved the life and radiation problems themselves with no outside help!

Another thing is the necrons mind or soul degrading as they are repaired over and over again.
Is this limited to their basic castes only or to their leaders as well?
And if they all suffer from the same thing is the reason that the lords dont suffer from it or not as much that they dont get destroyed as often or that they have better bodies that can withstand repairs better?

-Perhaps most important, nanotubes lack the sheer tensile strength to withstand the forces that would be placed on a space elevator. They might be good. They are nowhere near that good. Again, in a completely theoretical 'if they do this at this scale they may be able to do that at that scale' manner, they may prove useful as a component of said elevator cable, but they are not the be all and end all. They're strings of carbon with more similarities to graphite than diamond. They're pretty easy to break. And even diamond is quite easy to shatter if you hit it along a crystal plane.

Do you by any means have an accurate "mohrs graph" of the shear and tensile properties of the carbon nano tube?

And scale is a big problem from a chrystallographic point of view, apart from the technical manufacture difficulties. Any suggested theoretical solutions to maintain the same strength to size chrystal properties?

That's genuinely interesting, if you strip out the sarcasm. From the research I conducted in my university library, it was said to be theoretically possible, but do you disagree? If so, why? Note here that I am genuinely interested. I'm not out to score points arguing on the net (remember, it's like running in the special olympics ), and if what I've read is wrong, I'm curious as to why this is the case.

Morgrim covered it pretty much.
But he didnt include the impurities factor as well. At micro scale we can make pretty much "perfect" material structures but as they grow molecular impurities as well as structural flaws occur, be it by design flaws, temperature differences or abrasion. This is the general reason why solid and also "rheid" materials of ANY kind are weaker the bigger they become and that by big factors, not only certain percentages.
The elevator, be it in carbon tubes or synthetic diamond is going to be enormous and by definition it cant be made out of one piece. One problem is how to couple all the individual small pieces together without compromising structural integrity.

Another problem is celest mechanics of the earths very rotation, this basically means the material used need to display enormous strengths in all parts of a mohrs circle, not just positive tensile or shear and very few materials can do that.
Take for example construction steel, its strong and used as armature in concrete, used as reinforcement in mountain tunnels etc etc. Why? Its tensile strength is big, itsnegative tensile strength is enourmous but then its shear strength is non existent so the steel can only be useful for construction and reinforcement purposes in tight angle directions.
An orbital elevator made from steel would probably never snap from pull forces but from side affecting forces it would never last.

Another thing that factors in the movement of the cable would be the moon.
The only way such a cable could be kept "upright" is by rotationally anchoring it to a big mass. Think massive orbital station or small asteroid. This will of course be affected by the moon from varying angles.

You may laugh at my 'research', and proclaim loudly to the world that you have knowledge that is denied to us mortals, but I'd like to think that with a university library that specialises in various sciences, I'm a few steps above, 'some guy that read something on wikipedia'

Nah, its not that. I just got irritated by the multiple attempts to troll a simple misunderstanding, I got the feeling of some sort of hunt for hurt ego restoration was going on. Ticked me of, simple as that.
About the "some research". Another thing that I have seen time and time again do great harm out in the real world is the "little knowledge is harmful" syndrome. Why does it irritate me?
People in power (most often seen in political enviromental groups) with a good intention zeal based on "little" knowledge (you know, own research, reports that do not cover all angles, wiki etc) usually screw things up on epic scales.

Just one example you might laugh at but it highlites the issue perfectly are some enviro idiots here over at the northern parts pushing for some multi million project to create organic waste disposal "swamps" where bacteria broke down the waste in an enviromental friendly manner. All good and fine and paid for by me (the tax payer) but said idiots with lack of the WHOLE knowledge spectrum simply missed the part that its winter 8 freaking months of the year over there so the expensive swamp were never used in the end since it laid there frozen stiff for most parts of the year.
All this because some idiot thought he knew it all and wanted to do good.
I can give you tons of similar examples.

So yes, debates with people who think they zealously know it all because they did limited research tend to tick me of (and this selective knowledge idiocy is also why I absolutely hate enviro people with a burning passion). Now bear in mind, I am NOT, repeat not equating you with such a person so its nothing personal against you or in any form slander towards you.
Just explaining my self and why it is not me boosting my ego if you thought it was.

EDIT: I did actually take the time to address each of your counter-arguments, but for some reason, they appear to have vanished after I clicked to post my response. As such, I simply cannot be bothered to type it all out again.

PM? I have nothing against talking to you, in fact I am impressed by people who can change their minds or admit to being wrong if proven that.
Not many of those around.

They evolved with a short life span, screwing with genetics at that level could have dire consequences. Besides, the basic laws of evolution state that the odds of an alien species looking as human as the necrons (pre-zombot) is a scientific impossibility.

You gents have provided a wealth of info as to why space elevators are not currently feasible, and as such, I will echo those sentiments from now (unless someone comes along with counters to the above arguments). I'm not one of those people who, as pyriel put it, 'zealously think they know it all because they did limited research'.

As it's a new day, I'll raise one or two counter-arguments to your above posts Pyriel, if you don't mind.

Thats interesting. "We" had microwave machines and jet planes looong before the "public" was even aware of that, it said so in ALL the books back then you know.
But sure, if you bring me proof that behind locked doors there arent things "we" dont know about then I´ll agree.

Tell me one thing that's going on we don't know about, and I might go with this. Unfortunately that kind of argument is usually shared by people with tin foil hats convinced the government is run by aliens, and 9/11 was arranged by the Dutch Royal Family. I can accept some things are kept from the general population by various governments, but I find it hard to reconcile that with the government deliberately keeping a cure for cancer out of the public knowledge.

Ah, so they magically got this super tech from their masters. Ok.
To bad they were so stupid that they didnt ask for the magic miracle cure for radiation shielding (you know, the super hi-tech dirt, lead and bricks they somehow forgot to science-gap-invent while being busy building living metal bodies and super ark ships).

I think you assume too much knowledge of the physiology of the Necrontyr. For all we know, if they didn't receive a certain dose of background radiation, their skin would peel off, or they would become infertile. It's all too possible that there was a narrow balance to walk between too much radiation and too little. For example, if we get too much sunlight, our skin burns, but it's not healthy for us if our skin gets none at all. It could be a similar situation here, where immunising themselves against background radiation would screw up their bodies in some other way. I'm actually pretty sure something along these lines must be the case otherwise, what would there be to stop the Necrontyr simply ditching their main homeworld for another one? They could go somewhere with little to no radiation, thus extending their lives! If they didn't do this, there must be a reason, and think that reason is why it wouldn't be as simple as simply immunising themselves against radiation.

Just on a sidenote here, I believe I read somewhere that not all Necrontyr actually wanted to be placed in metal bodies. What happened was that the C'Tan slowly gained in power in Necrontyr society, and then they had their followers grab the non-believers, eat their souls, and transfer what was left to the metal robots first. The C'tan's followers then voluntarily gave themselves up. A bit like a religious movement. It wasn't so much the entire race deciding to become robots as the C'tan forcing it on half of them, because the other half worshipped them. Again, this makes sense.

EDIT: I just found the quote.

the C'tan offered the Necrontyr a great gift...at a terrible price. By giving themselves to the Star Gods utterly...the Necrontyr could pursue their vengeance of the old ones without fear fear or hesitation. So the messenger proclaimed, but despite it's honeyed words, the Necrontyr were riven by doubt. Those who had not surrendered to the Gods already were enjoined by the rest to submit, but could not be persuaded to make the giant leap of faith. It was only now the Deceivers true face began to show as it lured the unbelievers into the clutches of the faithful with promises of mediation and compromise. All were seized by the believers and delivered to their fate. Then the believers themselves were added to the glittering ranks of unliving machines....

So it really was a case of the religious necrontyr screwing over the rest of the race.

The necron home world might not have lead as an element so radiation shields might not be as easy as you think.

The presence of Lead is irrelevant. Fabricated materials can be used in radiation shielding.

Indeed, they would have *needed* some manner of protection to travel outside the protection of their planet's atmosphere.

In our modern age, we can "cure" many cases of depression using various chemicals, yet in several cases afflicted individuals do not use those cures because of the various unpleasant side effects or the costs involved. Manic depressive people are probably the best example--if they're "cured" they lose both the manic periods and the upswings along with the depressive periods and the other negatives. It's entirely reasonable that the Necrontyr had similar issues with any radiation or life extension treatments which they tried to develop. For that matter, if they did have treatments which had side effects which rendered those treatments impractical or unusable, wouldn't that just make it worse when they found a race like the Old Ones?

If the Necrontyr encountered the Old Ones, found out what the Old Ones could do, and then the Old Ones declined to help (or made the price too high), wouldn't that be enough to send an entire race to war? Suddenly "We're jealous and we hate you" becomes "You could have saved us and we're going to take you with us" and all the more dramatic.

It seems to me that when you are destroying a necron you are just destroying it's body. There's no reason to believe that a necrons "soul" is destroyed. Maybe it is collected and downloaded into another shell. Although with all that experience you would think that they would be less rubbish in a fight.

poodle wrote:It seems to me that when you are destroying a necron you are just destroying it's body. There's no reason to believe that a necrons "soul" is destroyed. Maybe it is collected and downloaded into another shell. Although with all that experience you would think that they would be less rubbish in a fight.

I always compared them to terminators, sky-net doesnt want it's soldiers to learn, so they can't. perhaps the c'tan feels the same way, so peronality and the basic thought process was removed when they were necroned.

They evolved with a short life span, screwing with genetics at that level could have dire consequences. Besides, the basic laws of evolution state that the odds of an alien species looking as human as the necrons (pre-zombot) is a scientific impossibility.

No problem there. It is where you simply use test subjects, you know unwanted trash that no one will ever miss, like enemies political prisoners etc etc. We humans are the foremost experts on these things. If a million die to create one genetic experiment that actually work then you have won and with the necrontyr near magical tech levels that would be pretty damn simple.

Also, nobody said the necrons and humans were alike. However they do exhibit quite similar social traits to one another, something that can certainly ease the understanding some.

You gents have provided a wealth of info as to why space elevators are not currently feasible, and as such, I will echo those sentiments from now (unless someone comes along with counters to the above arguments). I'm not one of those people who, as pyriel put it, 'zealously think they know it all because they did limited research'.

Cool If you ever think me being the same then smack me in the head. I hate being a hypocrite.

Tell me one thing that's going on we don't know about, and I might go with this. Unfortunately that kind of argument is usually shared by people with tin foil hats convinced the government is run by aliens, and 9/11 was arranged by the Dutch Royal Family. I can accept some things are kept from the general population by various governments, but I find it hard to reconcile that with the government deliberately keeping a cure for cancer out of the public knowledge.

As you so diligently noticed I have never used any tin-foil examples in my reasoning. I did never put forth examples about hidden ufos in secret hangars. I clearly stated two perfect examples of historical "clandestine". The microwave emitter and the jet plane, who were both "impossible" and according to all books didnt exist other then in sci fi novels or in tin foil basement gatherings.

Those are amonghts the things we didnt "know" about. Today empirically speaking there are still tons of things that we do not know about but by their very definition I cant point any out to you due to the tin-foil factor. Its a catch 22 for lack of better words.

Thus, what is it that you do not understand about my point?

I think you assume too much knowledge of the physiology of the Necrontyr. For all we know, if they didn't receive a certain dose of background radiation, their skin would peel off, or they would become infertile. It's all too possible that there was a narrow balance to walk between too much radiation and too little. For example, if we get too much sunlight, our skin burns, but it's not healthy for us if our skin gets none at all. It could be a similar situation here, where immunising themselves against background radiation would screw up their bodies in some other way. I'm actually pretty sure something along these lines must be the case otherwise, what would there be to stop the Necrontyr simply ditching their main homeworld for another one? They could go somewhere with little to no radiation, thus extending their lives! If they didn't do this, there must be a reason, and think that reason is why it wouldn't be as simple as simply immunising themselves against radiation.

If we get it we die of in the short run but in the long run our race prevails, if we dont get it its the opposite and we with our basic tech level can STILL solve both situations by introducing proper radiation, sub tanning under UV lamps or heck, curing cancer

But I understand your point, we cant assume but then what we can do is take logical calculated guesses. Its as I can say you cant assume the early eldar werent space living whales (and I´m right, they COULD have been, you cant disprove it or assume otherwise, ha) but then the victory of common sense and logics would be yours.
So when we assume things about the necrontyr I go with common sense and logics.
We know they are humanoid, we ASSUME they are of our rough build or smaller (based on their their metal bodies look), we know they were plant bound, we know they were atmosphere breathers and we know for a fact that they displayed remarkable similarities in psychological traits with us.

But in the end, if we are unable to assume even logical things then there will never be any base for debate and these threads can never exsist since everyone can counter everything about an unknown subject with: you cant assume this and you cant assume that.

Just on a sidenote here, I believe I read somewhere that not all Necrontyr actually wanted to be placed in metal bodies. What happened was that the C'Tan slowly gained in power in Necrontyr society, and then they had their followers grab the non-believers, eat their souls, and transfer what was left to the metal robots first. The C'tan's followers then voluntarily gave themselves up. A bit like a religious movement. It wasn't so much the entire race deciding to become robots as the C'tan forcing it on half of them, because the other half worshipped them. Again, this makes sense.

See, yet another "human" trait.
This brings up a very interesting point though. As with the eldar there simply must be some necrontyr that so to speak "got away".
How far fetched would it be then to assume there are a few necrons hidden or disguised in the galaxy that are good guys?
Those would be the most powerful of all enemies to the ctan and the metal necrons since tehy know all secrets and also the cures (maybe).

Talk about an epic subject for a 40k author. Someone should let Nick Kyme know about this

So it really was a case of the religious necrontyr screwing over the rest of the race.

LOL religious fanatics? How very "human" of them.

The necron home world might not have lead as an element so radiation shields might not be as easy as you think.

True, lead is a very rare element overall actually.
But you still need it in alloys etc and cant build things like super ships without using rare materials.

The argument falls however since they were bombarded by background radiation and this comes foremost from heavy isotopes and if those are present so is lead (generally).

The presence of Lead is irrelevant. Fabricated materials can be used in radiation shielding.

Indeed, they would have *needed* some manner of protection to travel outside the protection of their planet's atmosphere.

True but if the radiation came from the very ground they walked on then bummer. But on the other hand it would be easy to shield themselves from it anyway and it would also mean abundent heavy elements AND a very active mantle (also increasing natural resources).

As you so diligently noticed I have never used any tin-foil examples in my reasoning. I did never put forth examples about hidden ufos in secret hangars. I clearly stated two perfect examples of historical "clandestine". The microwave emitter and the jet plane, who were both "impossible" and according to all books didnt exist other then in sci fi novels or in tin foil basement gatherings.

Those are amonghts the things we didnt "know" about. Today empirically speaking there are still tons of things that we do not know about but by their very definition I cant point any out to you due to the tin-foil factor. Its a catch 22 for lack of better words.

Thus, what is it that you do not understand about my point?

As the one telling me that cancer could well have had a cure invented, but be having it withheld, the burden is on you to provide the proof that I am wrong. Until then, I stand by my statement. The fact that the government has kept one or two things secret in the past is absolutely no indicator of whether it is doing so currently in this specific field. I would also debate as to how big a secret the jet plane was, but that would be getting too off topic.

f we get it we die of in the short run but in the long run our race prevails, if we dont get it its the opposite and we with our basic tech level can STILL solve both situations by introducing proper radiation, sub tanning under UV lamps or heck, curing cancer

But I understand your point, we cant assume but then what we can do is take logical calculated guesses. Its as I can say you cant assume the early eldar werent space living whales (and I´m right, they COULD have been, you cant disprove it or assume otherwise, ha) but then the victory of common sense and logics would be yours.
So when we assume things about the necrontyr I go with common sense and logics.
We know they are humanoid, we ASSUME they are of our rough build or smaller (based on their their metal bodies look), we know they were plant bound, we know they were atmosphere breathers and we know for a fact that they displayed remarkable similarities in psychological traits with us.

But in the end, if we are unable to assume even logical things then there will never be any base for debate and these threads can never exsist since everyone can counter everything about an unknown subject with: you cant assume this and you cant assume that.

Again, you can say what you like, but the burden is on you to provide evidence that this is the case. You have made your claim that the Necrons must have been stupid as they didn't simply adjust themselves genetically, and I have given you an answer which reasonably suggests another logical train of thought in which the Necrontyr are not stupid. The onus is on you to prove that the Necrontyr WERE stupid. Unless you can disprove my completely reasonable theory, it is arguable that the Necrontyr were not stupid, and your statement remains mere speculation, rather than substantive fact, and my theory every bit as valid as yours.


The codex says the C'Tan ate all the Necrons, but I guess it could be possible some regular ones remain. Whether they would have so much of the uber technology though is a point of speculation, as the chronology in which it was acquired is uncertain.

The idea of surviving necrontyr is interesting, but the fact that they survived then doesn't mean they'd be around now. That is a lot of time for a species to die out, either through declining population or some natural disaster. Or even suspicious eldar wiping them out, 'just to be sure'.

Maybe a 'set in the past' book, like the Horus Heresies?

As the one telling me that cancer could well have had a cure invented, but be having it withheld, the burden is on you to provide the proof that I am wrong. Until then, I stand by my statement. The fact that the government has kept one or two things secret in the past is absolutely no indicator of whether it is doing so currently in this specific field. I would also debate as to how big a secret the jet plane was, but that would be getting too off topic.

You want to debate about the secrecy of early jets but claim hidden medical advances are ridiculous, well thats a way of having the cake and eating it but per definition this talk should be held between us in about 50 years or so when todays current hidden things are revealed.
Its pretty much naive to assume nothing is hidden from us today anymore.

and I have given you an answer which reasonably suggests another logical train of thought in which the Necrontyr are not stupid. The onus is on you to prove that the Necrontyr WERE stupid. Unless you can disprove my completely reasonable theory

Sorry dude but your "theory" is also nothing more then a theory and the burden of proof lies just as heavy on you if you want to proof your to be true. All we have are two "theories" and while I claim my is just as reasonable as is yours neither of us (that includes you too) has any moral ground to claim the other one provide the proof.
I can turn the table on you and say you need to proof your train of "thought" if you ever want me to acknowledge it for anything more then it is, a theory.

The idea of surviving necrontyr is interesting, but the fact that they survived then doesn't mean they'd be around now. That is a lot of time for a species to die out, either through declining population or some natural disaster. Or even suspicious eldar wiping them out, 'just to be sure'.

True. But it could also be that they went into stasis hiding, we dont know.
But how awesome would it be if someone wrote a story where a necron army got their asses handled back to them by anotehr army that was being guided mysteriously to a crushing voctory and hints were placed that a uncorrupted necrontyr was behind it.

It would certainly be a cool new concept to enrich the 40k universe with.

In that case sir, it appears we are at an impasse. You may go on believing that the Necrontyr, whilst full of enough genius to build amazing technology were so lacking in common sense they just didn't think of easy options for radiation shielding, whilst I will continue to believe that there is a simple explanation for this.

I believe mine to be the more feasible and likely of the two theories here, looking at the surrounding data.
And actually, as you were the one to make the first statement about the Necrontyr's intellectual capacities, it is up to YOU to prove them true, as I am not attempting to convince you of anything. It is you trying to convince me that the Necrons were stupid, as opposed to me trying to convince you they weren't.

If you believe a race that willingly steps up to become eternal slaves in cold degrading bodies through religious mass hysteria rather then easily fixing the radiation issue, are "smart" then you are entitled to it however weird that opinion seems to be.
I think its insane but that us just my opinion as I think the logic behind my own reasoning are far better.

Some debates end up like this, its inevitable that opinions vary in the end into various stand-offs.
So good luck to you and your theories sir. May you enrich more subjects with more original ideas in the future, it enriches this hobby to say the least.

And you too! A good debate only serves to sharpen the old mental muscles!

I believe that in one of the Black Library books (one of the Ultramarines omnibus) there was a chapter when they entered a room with some necrons lying on a table with empty skins hanging around, along with some surgical equipment. It has been a long time since I have read it but I'm almost 99% sure that they are created by remove the skeleton of a human.

Ronin-Sage wrote:It should also be noted that, and although it's "unofficial", almost every single fluff account of a Necron incursion stresses endless numbers.

Of course there would be "endless numbers" if when they take to much damage, they phase out, and are repaired. Then they return. By that logic, a force of only a couple thousand could easily seem like millions upon millions of Necrons. If you could do that, and being as powerful as a standard warrior is, you could overwhelm the enemy with few numbers.

aromasin wrote:I believe that in one of the Black Library books (one of the Ultramarines omnibus) there was a chapter when they entered a room with some necrons lying on a table with empty skins hanging around, along with some surgical equipment. It has been a long time since I have read it but I'm almost 99% sure that they are created by remove the skeleton of a human.

In Nightbringer, there were some disassembled Necrons in that lab and if I remember they at one point started to wake up and Uriel boltered them. Now remember...the BL novels are the last thing you want to take actual fluff related information towards things, that and other codexes except the actual army's; IE Space Marine 5th ed story about Ultrasmurfs destroying thousands of Necrons as they were 'retreating' after the Gold Lord was destroyed. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty darn sure Necrons phase out if a tactical loss was inevitable, not hike it over the hills for a few miles to a rally point.

I think they use captured enemies not suitable for the pariah creation as fuel for new warrior constructs. Treating them just as a resource to be used and fabricated. seeing as they just need that basic spark of consciousness seemingly to get a warrior working. Maybe one humans mind/soul can be dissected and programmed to be able to help power many new necron warriors. This would at least account for the HUGE numbers of warriors needed to fight a galaxy wide war.