-Dakkaites

After much work I finally finished my report on cheating during a top table match at Adepticon. I want to let you the community decide on does this behavior rise to the level of cheating or is it just a case of sour apples? Check out my blog for everything you need to know.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3088

PS: Blackmoor was standing on table away so I want to know what his perspective is on this whole thing.

I posted my thoughts over at BoK, it bums me out to see garbage like this.. But hopefully with it being recorded and exposed, it happens less in the future.

It's tough to say if Nick was genuinely cheated out of a rightful win. One guy pulling junk like this over the course of a tournament throws off all the results.. Is he deserving of the win? I wouldn't say so. Can we say it was intentional cheating? Unlikely as well.

The first 2 vids can be summed up as sloppy play. Very sloppy. This guy needs to tighten up his game if he wants to play in major events. The third may not be intentional, but I'd still consider it cheating.

Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


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Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Ketara wrote:Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

Because it happens...

Ketara wrote:Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

And sometimes there is an actual video of a person cheating.

The first video actually reminded me of something I've heard about in other threads, but never actually seen. It looked like he was measuring for his short distances (5" fallback, for example) while having 12" or so of measuring tape out. I assume he was trying to see if his dread was within charging distance of the chimera (or something else in the area)? He seemed to do it all the time, so maybe not...easier to reach, or just cover for when it matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Why? Do you care if strangers in general quietly stand by and watch your game? It's not like there's some secret move to victory you don't want discovered.

First point, I played Tim in the first round.
Second point, he did play w/ a four missile launcher Dev squad in the game we played.
Third point, I can't watch and listen to the videos from work so I cannot comment as to their contents, at this time.

Grimaldi wrote:The first video actually reminded me of something I've heard about in other threads, but never actually seen. It looked like he was measuring for his short distances (5" fallback, for example) while having 12" or so of measuring tape out. I assume he was trying to see if his dread was within charging distance of the chimera (or something else in the area)? He seemed to do it all the time, so maybe not...easier to reach, or just cover for when it matters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Why? Do you care if strangers in general quietly stand by and watch your game? It's not like there's some secret move to victory you don't want discovered.

Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I saw all 3 videos and I saw no instance of cheating in any of them.

Frazzled wrote:Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Camera shy, eh?

It is people like him that ruin the game for people like me.

So glad I choose not to play in tournies. Is this the wave of things to come? After every major tourney we'll have days and days of whining? And WTF is with people who are not playing being able to mill around the tables? When did the tourney scene become a spectator sport? I sure as hell won't play when you have dozens, nay hundreds of people stopping by to stick their face in your game, let alone someone shooting video. No thanks, how can that be fun?

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Camera shy, eh?

It is people like him that ruin the game for people like me.

Yes, lawyers, vampires, and other creatures of the ngiht generally fear cameras, mirrors and other similar objects.

Its people like this that ruin the game for me.

I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

Le Grognard wrote: how can that be fun?

Probably more fun than being cheated against.

Those camera angels... so 60's Batman!

Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

In the third one he moved the scouts on the hill (3 of the models) with sniper models.

Unfortunately we don't see if he shoots with them. It jumped out because he does it very quickly whilst moving the assault marines.

I'd agree with Mundar, first 2 seem to be more sloppy play. In WHFB in tourneys I play in we leave either 2 dice or a paddle pop (ice cream) stick with one end cut square (and a small blob of blu-tac to fix it in place) at the back edge of the mvt tray, so if we do need to remeasure you can just slide it back.

At the Brisbane GT many years ago I busted a guy using a DA sword on a character who wasn't able to take it (can't remember item or character now), I reported it to the judge immediately. It was first game so Item was removed from the character and he was left with a handweapon rest of the tourney and the player got docked 5 battle/game points (you get up to 20 per game) for every game for the tourney.

It happens, I should have called over the judge in retrospect but i was giving him the benefit of the doubt early on. oh well Live and learn and move on to next year's Adepticon.

MVBrandt wrote: Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

Done and done. It is really hard to figure out any type of "best of" at a tournament with only three rounds. Adepticon has the luxury of having a LOT of people attend and play, which sadly means they have to limit the number of rounds they are able to have played. It might be doable if they whole weekend was the big tournament, but then you take away the doubles tournament and other events that people seem to enjoy.

1. Not knowing the rules. The opponent should have taken some time to look up and point out the actual rule. Both are at fault here. One for not knowing the ules and the other for enforcing them.
2. Just sloppy but whatever, this is a game.
3. Not good, should have been reported to the judges. Even as an honest mistake should probably have been DQ'ed.

Frazzled wrote:Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

DarthDiggler wrote:I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

as for the content, they definitely should have looked up the rules in a tournament, let alone in a championship round at a premiere event. that's not the place for an amateurish or ignornant (whether purposeful or accidental) misinterpretation. the rhino movement was just plain sloppy but not cheating. as for the extra missle launcher, the only thing that matters is what is on the list and paid for with points. if he was using an extra missle launcher, he should be disqualified (since the event is over with) and all the players he played against awarded an extra battle point or two. if it had been caught in the first game, i'd have simply made him lose the figure (without a replacement) and detracted some points from sportmanship for not "knowing" his own army list.

warboss wrote:

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

Ahem. No.

Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

I'm genuinely flattered when people watch/photograph/video-tape my games, I don't even care if they talk, as long as they're not giving input on the game. If they are spectating it means that either they like how my army looks or that they think the game is interesting.

Bunker wrote:
Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Usually the last game in any round has a small crowd of people watching who have already finished their games. It's nice.

warboss wrote:
not the individual being filmed.

Again. No.
The second paragraph in the site you quoted mentions invasion of privacy, which is what you would be doing if you videotaped either player without their consent.


Back on topic, what was the original motivation for videotaping individual games? Was it just to have a record of the event, or was it to attempt to catch perceived shenanigans?

warboss wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

DarthDiggler wrote:I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

as for the content, they definitely should have looked up the rules in a tournament, let alone in a championship round at a premiere event. that's not the place for an amateurish or ignornant (whether purposeful or accidental) misinterpretation. the rhino movement was just plain sloppy but not cheating. as for the extra missle launcher, the only thing that matters is what is on the list and paid for with points. if he was using an extra missle launcher, he should be disqualified (since the event is over with) and all the players he played against awarded an extra battle point or two. if it had been caught in the first game, i'd have simply made him lose the figure (without a replacement) and detracted some points from sportmanship for not "knowing" his own army list.

in the immortal words of Genghis Connie: "Wrong wrong really really wrong!"
Its a private event PAYED FOR, competition.
I payed to play.
I did not pay to entertain.

I would make sure they would be gone.

I know we had a camera setup to record the game to put up on Bols and some other bloggers had Camera on the game to just to record the event to put on their blogs. We junked our video though as it looks like I blocked almost the whole table from our view like a idiot.

warboss wrote:

Bunker wrote:
Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Its private property
It IS a private event.
I can and would have it stopped. What part of raging lawyer threatening to sue if you don't stop do you not get?

I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

I think that is one of the tools in the cheater's bag of tricks: keep cheating and arguing with your opponent until they get so frustrated they just give up and pray for the game to finish.

You see it a lot from the victims of cheating, quotes like "I was just so tired of him at that point, I let it go".

Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

Nothing like attacking/being a jerk to someone for no reason.

Black Blow Fly wrote:***generic internet tough guy assault and battery story***

G

shouldn't that be "B" now?

1) It is not reasonable and in complete opposition to all historical data and statistics to assume that there are not people actively cheating at high level tournaments.

2) There is no reasonable assumption of privacy at these events. Even if someone would argue that a camera is invasive, what is to stop someone from taking specific notes including names, what they were wearing, physical descriptions, the number of times specific color of dice were used, how many times they used an over extended ruler to measure a shorter distance, etc. Has anyone checked the registration form and rules to see if there is specific mention?

I'm interested in seeing the video when I get home

Frazzled wrote:

Its private property
It IS a private event.
I can and would have it stopped. What part of raging lawyer threatening to sue if you don't stop do you not get?

I am pretty sure you could call it news reporting or something. I am pretty sure you have no basis to sue on.

This is America, you don't need a basis to sue, it's a constitutionally protected right.

warboss wrote: public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."


Wow.


Edit: I have no problem being filmed at an event, mind you, but I respect other's rights to privacy. If people are watching, they better keep their damned mouths shut, though.

kronk wrote:

thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."


Wow.

internet hyperbole, automatic post fail. (or is that a simile... don't remember)

no, you wouldn't be docked because someone stealing your land raider has already disrupted the game and you are not at fault. also, a crime has been committed. the two situations have NOTHING in common. someone quietly videotaping a game from a respectable distance is neither a crime nor disruptive, unless you choose to make it so INSTEAD of playing the game you're in. frankly, i've never taped anyone's games (not even my own) so i'm not some internet paparazzi 40k crusader. i'm just playing the devil's advocate. if someone CHOOSES to delay my tournament game an excessive amount of time for a reason i deem trivial (like this) INSTEAD of playing the game, i would dock them. as frazzled said, I PAID TO PLAY, not to watch my opponent deal with drama they imagined up IMO while i sit there. if i were playing frazzled in a tourney and he objected to being videotaped and took a minute or two to convince/threaten/stare down/fart in the direction of the guy doing it, i wouldn't care. if he walked away from the table and spent the next 5-30 minutes dealing with this during the game (instead of after where it would be appropriate), i would dock him points.

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

warboss wrote: if he walked away from the table and spent the next 5-30 minutes dealing with this during the game (instead of after where it would be appropriate), i would dock him points.

And that's bull.

I also payed my entry fee, hotel room fee, assembled and painted my army, play-tested, and everything else you did.

If someone is harrassing me, I am going to deal with it.

And that is not internet hyperbole.

It is 100% the same thing.

Black Blow Fly wrote:There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Flinging angry wienie dogs works well too.

Without knowing what the guy's list was, I personally can't see any cheating in those vids. Sloppy gameplay isn't against the rules, but he should get his soft-scores slammed (which I believe is what happened? So no harm done).

This thread is pretty funny though! Only in America would you get people threatening physical assault and legal action because someone took pictures of them!

Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

Absolutely and at a large event you have to be vigilant. Granted - not everyone has the same understanding/depth of the rules, but if you are participating in an event of this size (910 individual rounds of 40K) - you are expected to have some. AdeptiCon has been very clear on where it stands in regards to how to go about calling out questionable play:

Rules Disputes: Rules disputes are bound to occur at an event this large and varied in attendance. Players should attempt to resolve all rules disputes between themselves at the table (using the appropriate codex, rulebook, FAQ). If this fails, contact a Floor Judge who will attempt to resolve the dispute using the appropriate game system documents. In some extreme situations, a Floor Judge reserves the right to escalate issues to the Head Rules Judge (if the event has one) – his/her decision is final.

Cheating: Cheating will not be tolerated at AdeptiCon. Cheating affects the quality of the experience for all attendees and creates a significant disruption for event staff. Proof of cheating at AdeptiCon will lead to forfeiture of all scheduled events for the rest of the weekend and being placed on the banned list for all future AdeptiCons.
Players are expected to have a solid grasp of the rules and are responsible for challenging their opponent(s) when those rules are broken. If the players cannot come to a resolution, then the matter must be brought to the attention of a Floor Judge DURING the game. At that point the Floor Judge(s) will weigh the evidence and take appropriate action (which might result in anything from a warning to expulsion). Please remember, this is a complex game and honest mistakes are often made. Every attempt to resolve the issue should be made prior to calling over a Floor Judge (see Rules Disputes above). Claiming your opponent is cheating to simply influence the outcome of the game is cheating in and of itself.

Observing Games: As some of the larger tournaments enter the final rounds, it is often tempting to seek out and watch the ‘top tables’. Simply observing a game in progress is fine, but observers should NEVER interject their own commentary, rules interpretations or tactical advice to either player involved in the game.

After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Rube wrote:
This thread is pretty funny though! Only in America would you get people threatening physical assault and legal action because someone took pictures of them!

To take this thread even farther afield, many a German would threaten action (physical or legal) to stop you from unwanted video taping them. German likes them their privacy.

Good post Matthias.
Agreed on all points.

Matthias wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

Absolutely and at a large event you have to be vigilant. Granted - not everyone has the same understanding/depth of the rules, but if you are participating in an event of this size (910 individual rounds of 40K) - you are expected to have some. AdeptiCon has been very clear on where it stands in regards to how to go about calling out questionable play:

Rules Disputes: Rules disputes are bound to occur at an event this large and varied in attendance. Players should attempt to resolve all rules disputes between themselves at the table (using the appropriate codex, rulebook, FAQ). If this fails, contact a Floor Judge who will attempt to resolve the dispute using the appropriate game system documents. In some extreme situations, a Floor Judge reserves the right to escalate issues to the Head Rules Judge (if the event has one) – his/her decision is final.

Cheating: Cheating will not be tolerated at AdeptiCon. Cheating affects the quality of the experience for all attendees and creates a significant disruption for event staff. Proof of cheating at AdeptiCon will lead to forfeiture of all scheduled events for the rest of the weekend and being placed on the banned list for all future AdeptiCons.
Players are expected to have a solid grasp of the rules and are responsible for challenging their opponent(s) when those rules are broken. If the players cannot come to a resolution, then the matter must be brought to the attention of a Floor Judge DURING the game. At that point the Floor Judge(s) will weigh the evidence and take appropriate action (which might result in anything from a warning to expulsion). Please remember, this is a complex game and honest mistakes are often made. Every attempt to resolve the issue should be made prior to calling over a Floor Judge (see Rules Disputes above). Claiming your opponent is cheating to simply influence the outcome of the game is cheating in and of itself.

Observing Games: As some of the larger tournaments enter the final rounds, it is often tempting to seek out and watch the ‘top tables’. Simply observing a game in progress is fine, but observers should NEVER interject their own commentary, rules interpretations or tactical advice to either player involved in the game.

After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

Frazzled wrote:

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Matthias wrote:
After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

Excellent point, Matthias. If you are unclear or uncertain, or if your opponent is doing something you know is wrong but you can't come to agreement, call in the TO. Right then and there and resolve it.

Edit: I'm assuming that you are the other person, Darkwynn? I'm sorry that you had a crappy experience at the tournament. I'm more sorry that you're in the middle of all of this. Both suck, man.

Black Blow Fly wrote:There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Ahaha I love you Steve.

Steven seagal of 40k, poppin caps in nerds lol.

Video 1- He just didn't know the rule correctly it seemed... I agree that the opponent should have paused and looked it up. It's sour grapes to retroactively point out what those two surviving marines killed, if you don't verify the rule when it happened.

Video 2- It just looks like a sloppy way of moving the tank, as others have said. He should have moved it back to its original position and remeasured... but it clearly had enough movement to get where he put it. What's the big deal? I'm sure I've nudged models back after moving them, deciding I didn't want to put them that far after all... I'm not sure why you would label this as possible "cheating"? And it certainly didn't cost anyone the game...

Video 3- A big mistake, and people are right, he probably should have been disqualified. Unfortunately this just happend to me- in the Warhammer North American Tournament (which is no tournament at all, but one game played the last weekend of the month for three months, hosted by GW) I played against an illeagal army (5 units of censer bearers in skaven). I let the guy have the win, since it was a massacre, anyway. But it was disappointing to have someone make such a mistake in an official event. I'll check the army list from now!!!!

I think only the third video could be called cheating (and it clearly was) although perhaps it was a mistake. Either way, I think he should have been disqualified for that. The other two videos are just non-exemplary play... nothing to call cheating imho.

Darkwynn wrote:I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

Nick - I have no doubt this is not your intention - but it is a tool that WILL be used by others to prop up their listen-to-me-I-know-the-one-true-path-to-God way of approaching this hobby/game. I am all for calling out cheaters and AdeptiCon, as an event, has no tolerance for it - but the way it was dangled out there by BoK does a great disservice to the event and the 100+ volunteers that run the event and the thousands of hours people invest in planning and pulling this thing off. This is something that should have been handled at the table, by the players (at least one of whom is very competent) and the judges. It takes much, much more than throwing some terrain out on a few tables to make this happen. BoK's Crusade is 100% self-serving, I see no value in what he is doing and I take personal offense to the manner in which this was handled.

Timmah wrote:

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

That is different. I respect people's right to privacy. If attending an event like that (football game) where I am an onlooker and not the participant, then no, I don't care. But to be video taped without consent, no you'll need to ask me my permission or I'll be buying the "reporter" a new camera if it came to that. And it is just plain courteous to ask.

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

Matthias wrote:
After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something?

As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part. My opponent hands me his list, I glance at it, but for the most part, I trust his models to be WYSIWYG, because those are the rules for the event, and that's how I play. If someone had an extra missile in there, I probably wouldn't catch it until after the event when I was collecting my thoughts and typing in their list as I was writing a battle report. If someone forgot to take a weird codex-specific test, I might not realize they had to until I recounted what happened to a friend after the game who then mentioned that such a test was part of the rule. You can catch people on some stuff at the time, and correct it on the spot, but most players, in my experience, only really know a few codexes front-to-back, and have to trust their opponents on the others. I think the quiz results from Adepticon back that view too.

It would be nice if we could just play games without feeling that we have to be hyper-vigilant, but I know that it's unrealistic to expect judges to catch stuff in advance at smaller events, and doubly-so at large events. That doesn't mean the event isn't good or even that the judges aren't good. It might mean that some people need to win their toy soldier games a little too much... It's a lot to ask any given player to keep track of everything an opponent does with an unfamiliar codex within a 2-hour game.

Frazzled wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

Son, it is a public venue that allowed cameras into it. Meaning its fair game to do any sort of video reporting you want as long as its not for a profit.

Redbeard wrote:
As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part.

I see it as two different things, redbeard.

Being unfamiliar with an army and being told: yeah, my ____ has a 4+ inv save when he doesn't is one thing. In this case, yes the guy is a d-bag. Finding out after the game, your only recorse is to tell the TO so that he can prevent the player from pulling it in future games. It doesn't take away from you getting screwed, but it might help the next guy.

Being familiar with a rule and knowing the guy is breaking it, intentionally or otherwise, is a separate issue. Yes, this need to be resolved ASAP. If the two of you can't talk it out, or after reading the rules you interpret them differently, you should call the TO right then to resolve it. Complaining afterwards to the TO won't take away from you getting screwed and may help the next guy, but getting a ruling from the TO might save your butt the game.

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

Matthias wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

Nick - I have no doubt this is not your intention - but it is a tool that WILL be used by others to prop up their listen-to-me-I-know-the-one-true-path-to-God way of approaching this hobby/game. I am all for calling out cheaters and AdeptiCon, as an event, has no tolerance for it - but the way it was dangled out there by BoK does a great disservice to the event and the 100+ volunteers that run the event and the thousands of hours people invest in planning and pulling this thing off. This is something that should have been handled at the table, by the players (at least one of whom is very competent) and the judges. It takes much, much more than throwing some terrain out on a few tables to make this happen. BoK's Crusade is 100% self-serving, I see no value in what he is doing and I take personal offense to the manner in which this was handled.

I agree Matt for most part but as head judge even at BolsCon but this type of cheating is impossible to catch by the staff and I don't view you guys at fault by any means if anything its mine. Personal, I think people should take the focus off Adepticon its not their fault and there is a lot of people who put time and energy into this event and its one of the best. If there wasn't a video tape though no one would have caught him in this game or pass games or him having multiple list at each table from my understanding as other previous opponents have brought up. As a side note i don't think BoK is going off attacking Adepticon or trying to persecute you guys by the way as you did everything right and one run of the best events. I think he just wants to put the focus on the player that was in issue and probably call me out for being stupid on not reporting it.

Besides you guys have the best event out there right now and some of the best judges along with your self Joe, and Dave you guys are awesome. It has happened we need to move on, recognize the player, know we still have a great event , bring more people to Adepticon reinforce that hey if people brought this up it would have been handled correctly and would have been disqualified. the burden of Blame goes to me and that is it. lets look forward to next year and grow it to 2500 people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

you hit it on the spot for me Kronk, It was the last game of the day on 3 hours of sleep and I went whatever, lets just finish the game and move on. I want to go play the poker game and obviously he wanted the game more then I did. Plus I already had won a thunderhawk to cuddle up to on my way home.

Redbeard wrote:
As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part. My opponent hands me his list, I glance at it, but for the most part, I trust his models to be WYSIWYG, because those are the rules for the event, and that's how I play. If someone had an extra missile in there, I probably wouldn't catch it until after the event when I was collecting my thoughts and typing in their list as I was writing a battle report. If someone forgot to take a weird codex-specific test, I might not realize they had to until I recounted what happened to a friend after the game who then mentioned that such a test was part of the rule. You can catch people on some stuff at the time, and correct it on the spot, but most players, in my experience, only really know a few codexes front-to-back, and have to trust their opponents on the others. I think the quiz results from Adepticon back that view too.

It would be nice if we could just play games without feeling that we have to be hyper-vigilant, but I know that it's unrealistic to expect judges to catch stuff in advance at smaller events, and doubly-so at large events. That doesn't mean the event isn't good or even that the judges aren't good. It might mean that some people need to win their toy soldier games a little too much... It's a lot to ask any given player to keep track of everything an opponent does with an unfamiliar codex within a 2-hour game.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here Alex, but there is a reality to this whole thing that is often overlooked. The game is imperfect. The playing of the game is imperfect. Sometimes legitimate mistakes are made and sometimes people willingly cheat. Nick was vigilant, he called the guy on it and he received no benefit form an extra missile launcher that game. That is exactly how it should of happened. Things like that do not require intimate knowledge of every codex in existence.

I fully realize the varying levels of investment out there. Not everyone can be a 40K-guru, nor should they have to be...but if people are going to hold events like this to the competitive-fire and make all sorts of sports analogies - then I fully believe they should also be required to have full knowledge of the rules and resolve issues that arise in their own games. No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

Matthias wrote:No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

Well, they did get caught cheating that one time...

Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

Darkwynn wrote:

kronk wrote:

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

you hit it on the spot for me Kronk, It was the last game of the day on 3 hours of sleep and I went whatever, lets just finish the game and move on. I want to go play the poker game and obviously he wanted the game more then I did. Plus I already had won a thunderhawk to cuddle up to on my way home.

Been there, and I understand it completely.

Redbeard wrote:

Matthias wrote:No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

Well, they did get caught cheating that one time...

Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

I agree on that one holding events like this is kind of silly... on the other hand wait you guys still have a baseball team? Though after you picked up Jordan it went all down hill back in the 90's

Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

I have no idea what your talking about

Its interesting to see how posts spiral. There are really simpler steps to all this tournment issues.

1. If you are being video taped, request not to be. Be polite. But give a real reason. Me, I just don't like being taped. Its come up before, I've asked my opponent if we mind halting at the next game turn to address it. If its one of his mates, I ask if he can ask the guy.

2. There really is not that much blatant cheating in the us. And its rarely at the top tables! This comes up every tournment. If it comes up in game, it needs to be handled by the guys in game if they feel its impacting. Post comments days removed does nothing.

3. If I see a guy with a 12 inch tape out, for something that's a 6 inch move. I mention something politely. "He, just pointing out you really only need 6 inches, can we back that down?" Consistency is the key. You mention it on turn 1. If you wait until turn 6, then you should have been more proactive.

4. Its a little different in the North east. Most of the guys at GT's and on the upper tables all know each other. You don't see these type of things that seem to come up at a more National scale, like the adepticon's. I just don't want to see this give US events a bad name for people screaming cheater.

Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

That's not really saying much.

GO RED SOX!

On topic: I agree with Nick that we should really move on. I'd honestly have preferred that none of the video was released and that the matter was dealt with in a more private manner. Even if that meant we just learned to keep an eye out in the future...

Redbeard wrote:Though I do understand what you're saying about an imperfect game, and I agree with you. I think that holding 40k events to this level of competitive scrutiny is kind of silly as well. The game isn't designed for it. There was probably more at stake at the poker game than during any of the 40k events...

Absolutely. The truth is - I can video tape any game of 40K played and find something I could call into question/consider suspect. The second either player bumps the table, moves a model 1/2" too far, rolls a cocked die, knocks over a model, forgets a special rule, forgets to deploy a unit/roll for reserves...the game is bunk. This list is endless really and these things are bound to happen all the time for the eternity of 40K. No one plays this game professionally and to claim so in any form is extremely silly.

I kept searching through the posts, trying to find out where Redbeard had contributed... and now I see you've just changed your avatar, and that's what confused me

We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

Yeah, I'd really hate to have a camera trained on me for every minute of a 5-game tourney. I always measure accurately, etc., but I'm sure I goof up a rule once in a while. That wouldn't make me a cheater, it'd make me human.

And yeah, if someone dragged my name all over the internet calling me a cheater for an honest in-game mistake, they'd probably receive a letter from my attorney.

But really I hope as a community we can start dealing with issues at the event in question whenever possible instead of this next-day/week stuff all over the internet. Look at what's going on at GWUS. Let's not give them reasons to second-guess some things, if you get my drift.

Darkwynn wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Wasn't it a Texan team we beat (swept...) in the World Series only a few years ago?

I have no idea what your talking about

I think that was directed at me. To quote the Cubs, wait until next year!

asugradinwa wrote:
We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

I was really hoping it was just a 1-time, honest mistake. I don't know what your source is, asugradinwa, nor am I asking for it. I just find the whole thing to be sad. I've got nothing more to add.

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

Son, it is a public venue that allowed cameras into it. Meaning its fair game to do any sort of video reporting you want as long as its not for a profit.

Clue, you not have. Internet armed, vs. $50,000 - $100,000 legal bill, you be.

kronk wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:
We have confirmation that the player (Tim) used 4 missile launchers in more then 1 game in the tournament.

That is cheating if his list only said he had 3.

It doesn't matter if he knowingly did it or not, the first time he rolled 4 dice for missiles he should have been DQed from that game.

I was really hoping it was just a 1-time, honest mistake. I don't know what your source is, asugradinwa, nor am I asking for it. I just find the whole thing to be sad. I've got nothing more to add.

SPARKEYG wrote:First point, I played Tim in the first round.
Second point, he did play w/ a four missile launcher Dev squad in the game we played.
Third point, I can't watch and listen to the videos from work so I cannot comment as to their contents, at this time.

The source is SparkeyG from page 1 of this thread.

We all have to remember 40k is a game between 2 people. If player A lets Player B cheat him that is player A's problem. This stuff needs to be stopped mid game by the opponent.

after dice are down it doesn't matter if you cheated.

Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

Matthias wrote:
No one has to sit the Chicago White Sox down before each game an explain to them the rules of baseball...

There are also 3-4 umpires running every baseball game and watching every play. Even then shady things still happen (Joe Niekro anyone?). There's no such mechanism here.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

everyone did consent to allow the table be filmed by a bunch of people. I know we had our camera there on my right shoulder recording to put it up on the blog just for the thrill of the game and give people a idea of the table but like I said before I was a idiot and blocked ours with my shoulder.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

There is no Justice, Just Us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Quite frankly, I'd be upset with anyone filming one of my games w/o my permission. Not that I'll ever be on a top table...

everyone did consent to allow the table be filmed by a bunch of people. I know we had our camera there on my right shoulder recording to put it up on the blog just for the thrill of the game and give people a idea of the table but like I said before I was a idiot and blocked ours with my shoulder.

And I am sure if one of the players asked you to stop you would have.

ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

Darkwynn wrote:ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

You answered your own question my man and I might add, did it properly. Everyone gave their consent. I said I would be annoyed if someone started videotaping. Hence, I would not have given my consent.

12thRonin wrote:There are also 3-4 umpires running every baseball game and watching every play. Even then shady things still happen (Joe Niekro anyone?). There's no such mechanism here.

Sure there is. You can make the calls and then call for official ruling at any point. You have dominion over your own game.

Things go uncalled in professional sports all the time...bad calls are made in professional sports all the time...these things are bound to happen in 40K too, if you view it as a sport...

Frazzled wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:ya, I would have had one of the guys take the camera or turn it off or something but no one did such a thing...

I am still kind of confused why people are getting so upset about the camera thing when people had consent and didn't mind it. Wyatt and I had our game tapped for gladiator to and it was great. If you don't liked getting taped or viewed fine cool, but no one said anything like that so I guess I am a little confused why people are bringing that up.

You answered your own question my man and I might add, did it properly. Everyone gave their consent. I said I would be annoyed if someone started videotaping. Hence, I would not have given my consent.

And I would have kept taping and then just blurred your face out before posting it online. Problem solved.

not to me. That would be impolite and I would respond in kind.

I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

Speaking personally, I just wouldn't want to play while having a video camera on me the whole time. It'd be weird and distracting. I wouldn't care if they assured me it'd be blurred out, or whatever (why would I care if someone saw my face?).

But regardless of whether I'd like it or not, I certainly think that, if one of the people actually playing the game asked the cameraman to please not do that while they're trying to play, the request should be honored out of basic courtesy.

MVBrandt wrote:

Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

OT, but I kinda agree with this.

If there are more than 20-30 players, calling someone a "winner" of a tournament after three rounds is kind of a joke.

Saldiven wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

OT, but I kinda agree with this.

If there are more than 20-30 players, calling someone a "winner" of a tournament after three rounds is kind of a joke.

Guys, I agree (and I'm telling you that to stop you yelling at me for no reason )...but we don't need to bring this up again.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

Would this be the Fox News version of "some people" in which (the colloquial) you are the "some people" or the "some people" that a reasonable person would infer to be a variety of non-biased individuals from whom you have received correspondence or witnessed an expression of this sentiment?

Someone needs a chalkboard and pictures to put up....

fullybakedbear wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Some people are saying Tasty Taste pulled this stunt solely to increase traffic at his blog spot with no real concern for true justice.

G

Would this be the Fox News version of "some people" in which (the colloquial) you are the "some people" or the "some people" that a reasonable person would infer to be a variety of non-biased individuals from whom you have received correspondence or witnessed an expression of this sentiment?

Hah, I had the same thought when I read his post.

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Frazzled wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

50 to 100 thousand pieces of paper with Frazonidas on them. I'd accept that as currency

And this, friends & neighbors, is why I don't play in tourneys anymore. After spending countless hours assembling, converting, painting, brainstorming and playtesting in preparation for said tourney, not to mention time & expense neccesary to actually get there, only to be placed against someone who is, at best, just plain sloppy at playing and, at worst, cheating, I'm afraid I'd lose my cool on him and he'd get to have his army removed from his rear! Cheater or not, it's still disrespectful, as well as uncalled for.

Can't someone just refuse to sign the scoring sheet afterwards if the other player constantly cheated the whole time? I don't think its enough to just knock the guy on sportsmanship. If the entire game, your opponent was trying to cheat (and you called him out for everything that you saw, but wasn't able to catch everything) is it legit to not sign the scoring sheet and bring up the problem with the TO? (This is regardless if you won/lost/drew)

bluedevil27 wrote:Can't someone just refuse to sign the scoring sheet afterwards if the other player constantly cheated the whole time? I don't think its enough to just knock the guy on sportsmanship. If the entire game, your opponent was trying to cheat (and you called him out for everything that you saw, but wasn't able to catch everything) is it legit to not sign the scoring sheet and bring up the problem with the TO? (This is regardless if you won/lost/drew)

Stop the game and get a judge immediately. Complaining afterwards is almost useless - there really is no good way to intervene if the game is over.

Is this guy known to the community? If so, what forum/nick?

Some good guidelines for cheating or other bad behavior:

If it involves movement, measurement, dice rolling, or other questionable behavior try and bring it up. some examples:

"I thought that transport couldn't fire if it moved over 6 inches"

"I'm sorry, I'm not sure I heard you, what unit are you shooting at?"

"Wouldn't that unit need to take a difficult terrain test?"

Lots of time they are honest mistakes, or I am reminded of a special rule. If you have the issues keep comming up then you need to be a little more forceful. But you can even do it yourself:

"I'm going to mark how far each of your transports moved so I'll remember if I'll need a 4 or 6 to hit it in close combat."

"Please make sure you roll your dice where I can see them."

If the bad behavior keeps up then excuse yourself and grab a judge and ask them if they wouldn't mind looking in on your game for a little bit because of the issues.

Also, when someone is deploying thier army I usually make them walk me through each unit to compare it with the army list. This generally eliminates someone putting in a power fist that he didn't pay points for.

Frazzled wrote:

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Could a MOD post a warning about continuing to derail this thread with some pointless banter about video cameras...

Oh wait, it is a MOD continuing to derail this thread with pointless banter about video cameras...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Blow Fly wrote:There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Awesome!

Of course it wasn't very ambassadorial of you. If you're trying to build the hobby and attract new players, it is downright counter productive. I agree when people give advice to the opponent, especially when it is the tournament organizer I usually say something like "hey I'm playing him, not you" but random spectators especially if they don't know the game and are just at the con, I tell them what is happening and why things are being done.

But I guess I'm more ambassadorial than you.

methoderik wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Could a MOD post a warning about continuing to derail this thread with some pointless banter about video cameras...

Oh wait, it is a MOD continuing to derail this thread with pointless banter about video cameras...

It is a digression, but a minor and organic one. The moderator in question posted as a member of the forum who actually is versed in the relevant laws, and who personally objects to being videotaped, as do many people. The main reason it got dragged out is that people decided to argue the point, out of ignorance a) of the relevant laws, and b) of the fact that many perfectly reasonable people prefer not to be videotaped.

ITT passive aggressives who don't have the guts to confront a person upfront but rather video tape him so they can rally an angry internet mob later... again.

Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

That would be permitted only if it had really cool or really corney sound effects.

Or was moderated by the guy who does the Iron Chef play by play.
"oh and now it looks like Iron Chef Frazzled is preparing a simple demon combo assault with lemon zest."

Or Howard Kossel.
"And now the cha-Amp is doing a little rope a dope on the challenger. Look at the footwork, thats the haaaallmaark of a true Cham-P-ion."

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

We could get some cameras, a play by play man, and a color commentator or two and sell this to ESPN, Fox, or Verses to run like the poker tournaments.

"Wow Jim! Did you just see that thunderfire shot? He nailed 3 of the 4 blasts! This might be the Battlefoam "Pack em away" moment of the game, brought to you by Battlefoam, who can help you pack away all your minatures for easy storage and handeling."

"Yeah Ron. Not being able to take out that thunderfire first turn is really comming back to haunt this warboss. Back when I started playing in 4th edition we didn't have to worry about those babies."

asugradinwa wrote:

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

We could get some cameras, a play by play man, and a color commentator or two and sell this to ESPN, Fox, or Verses to run like the poker tournaments.

"Wow Jim! Did you just see that thunderfire shot? He nailed 3 of the 4 blasts! This might be the Battlefoam "Pack em away" moment of the game, brought to you by Battlefoam, who can help you pack away all your minatures for easy storage and handeling."

"Yeah Ron. Not being able to take out that thunderfire first turn is really comming back to haunt this warboss. Back when I started playing in 4th edition we didn't have to worry about those babies."

Is their a point to this post of yours ?. Because I missed it.

asugradinwa wrote:

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

We could get some cameras, a play by play man, and a color commentator or two and sell this to ESPN, Fox, or Verses to run like the poker tournaments.

"Wow Jim! Did you just see that thunderfire shot? He nailed 3 of the 4 blasts! This might be the Battlefoam "Pack em away" moment of the game, brought to you by Battlefoam, who can help you pack away all your minatures for easy storage and handeling."

"Yeah Ron. Not being able to take out that thunderfire first turn is really comming back to haunt this warboss. Back when I started playing in 4th edition we didn't have to worry about those babies."

Now you're on my wavelength. Thats not a good sign for you though, being on my wavelength. I'd advise consulting with mental health professionals immediately. There's still hope for you. There's still hope!

That sounds like fun, actually. We just need someone decent. Most of the poker commentators are lame. Gabe Kaplan's pretty decent, though.

Frazzled wrote:

That would be permitted only if it had really cool or really corney sound effects.

Or was moderated by the guy who does the Iron Chef play by play.
"oh and now it looks like Iron Chef Frazzled is preparing a simple demon combo assault with lemon zest."

Or Howard Kossel.
"And now the cha-Amp is doing a little rope a dope on the challenger. Look at the footwork, thats the haaaallmaark of a true Cham-P-ion."

I prefer Golf play by play whispering.

Frazz moves his landraider...will it be 6 inches? No what a spectactular move....he moved it 8".......and wait is he going to deploy? yes!!! he is deploying.

Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!"

The camera man is down.....the dog is all over him....it's an incredible spectacle ladies and gentlemen.....one that I've never seen before....
GG

This whole issue just seems suddenly contrived. Nick knew the game was being taped.

1) Did the person playing Nick who is accused of cheating also know it was being taped?
2) Was the video camera openly displayed during the game or was the taping covertly conducted?

It just seems really very ignorant to knowingly cheat if you know a game is being taped. Now I am not saying this was staged but it just doesn't all add up.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:This whole issue just seems suddenly contrived. Nick knew the game was being taped.

1) Did the person playing Nick who is accused of cheating also know it was being taped?
2) Was the video camera openly displayed during the game or was the taping covertly conducted?

It just seems really very ignorant to knowingly cheat if you know a game is being taped. Now I am not saying this was staged but it just doesn't all add up.

G

yes, Steve he knew he was tapped one of the people asked him if he minded and he said no.

someone had a Ipod camera on the table to the left of us where everyone could see it and I know we had our camera to a right, other then that there were a bunch of other people having hand hoed cameras.
r
I walked away from the table for a quick 2 minutes to run to the bathroom and he was joking to the camera with some people.

generalgrog wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

That would be permitted only if it had really cool or really corney sound effects.

Or was moderated by the guy who does the Iron Chef play by play.
"oh and now it looks like Iron Chef Frazzled is preparing a simple demon combo assault with lemon zest."

Or Howard Kossel.
"And now the cha-Amp is doing a little rope a dope on the challenger. Look at the footwork, thats the haaaallmaark of a true Cham-P-ion."

I prefer Golf play by play whispering.

Frazz moves his landraider...will it be 6 inches? No what a spectactular move....he moved it 8".......and wait is he going to deploy? yes!!! he is deploying.

Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!"

The camera man is down.....the dog is all over him....it's an incredible spectacle ladies and gentlemen.....one that I've never seen before....
GG

Hah! Good stuff. This would definitely draw attention to a game. I'd like to see the final done that way.
But anything is better than pushing spectators AWAY from the game.

All I'm seeing here is people who either looooove their "public" privacy or are in the witness protection program.

Maybe they should turn down the lights and decorate it like a basement... add alittle musty smell and let your mom yell at you intermittently. Ahhh, privacy.

Just sayin'.

methoderik wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Could a MOD post a warning about continuing to derail this thread with some pointless banter about video cameras...

Oh wait, it is a MOD continuing to derail this thread with pointless banter about video cameras...

Mod Hat On.

I'm going to jump in here and say that the primary issue of the gameplay being discussed should be the primary focus of the thread. If people want to discuss the ettiquite, legality and pros and cons of filming at tourneys them please start a new thread and link to it from here so that discussion can have the attention it deserves, rather than having parallel topics in this thread.

Like I said I find it hard to believe anyone would knowingly cheat if they knew their game was being taped.

Thanks for your answers Nick. : )

G

loki old fart wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

We could get some cameras, a play by play man, and a color commentator or two and sell this to ESPN, Fox, or Verses to run like the poker tournaments.

"Wow Jim! Did you just see that thunderfire shot? He nailed 3 of the 4 blasts! This might be the Battlefoam "Pack em away" moment of the game, brought to you by Battlefoam, who can help you pack away all your minatures for easy storage and handeling."

"Yeah Ron. Not being able to take out that thunderfire first turn is really comming back to haunt this warboss. Back when I started playing in 4th edition we didn't have to worry about those babies."

Is their a point to this post of yours ?. Because I missed it.

I thought their was. Quite funny actually. You probably missed the references do to culture or age. (And by that I mean you needed to be watching american sports, particularly football, during a certain decade.)

mikhaila wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:

loki old fart wrote:Would people object to a mounted camera. Focused downwards recording the game,
and it been projected on a screen for people to watch.
It might curb cheating and make for less milling around tables

We could get some cameras, a play by play man, and a color commentator or two and sell this to ESPN, Fox, or Verses to run like the poker tournaments.

"Wow Jim! Did you just see that thunderfire shot? He nailed 3 of the 4 blasts! This might be the Battlefoam "Pack em away" moment of the game, brought to you by Battlefoam, who can help you pack away all your minatures for easy storage and handeling."

"Yeah Ron. Not being able to take out that thunderfire first turn is really comming back to haunt this warboss. Back when I started playing in 4th edition we didn't have to worry about those babies."

Is their a point to this post of yours ?. Because I missed it.

I thought their was. Quite funny actually. You probably missed the references do to culture or age. (And by that I mean you needed to be watching american sports, particularly football, during a certain decade.)

Ahhh

Matthias wrote:
Things go uncalled in professional sports all the time...bad calls are made in professional sports all the time...these things are bound to happen in 40K too, if you view it as a sport...

Really? There are 3-4 umpires per table at a 40k tournament?

tastytaste wrote:-Dakkaites

After much work I finally finished my report on cheating during a top table match at Adepticon. I want to let you the community decide on does this behavior rise to the level of cheating or is it just a case of sour apples? Check out my blog for everything you need to know.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3088

PS: Blackmoor was standing on table away so I want to know what his perspective is on this whole thing.

1. Your camera angle was craptastic, you have no right putting a guy out on front street with that bullgak film with only YOUR supposed side of it.

2. The fallback was gaked to begin with, the guy on the red side of the table looked like a total tool bag measuring his inches in 3 inch intervals. WTF was that about? Along side the gak camera angle, we see a guy running the wrong way in fallback.

3. YOU put it out that they are cheating, then put it up on a website. SO.... What did the judges say about it AT THE TIME OF THE GAME?

4. Missle launchers... hmmm so was it 3 or 4? Who called him on it the first time it happened? WHY then would it have to happen a second time without calling him out and calling a judge?

5. Adepticon STILL brings the pogues out to play. THAT film you showed was an example of a no bull CHERRY argument. Anyone worth thier salt already KNOWS that that was a BS argument, and that it went on for more then a minute tells me that someone or TWO needs to go back and read thier rule books and codex's.

6. The fact that you would bring this to Dakka, instead of leaving it on your own site, where you have alrady crucified this guy in public record doesn't say much for you, either.

From what we see here, YOU have the guy already pegged, and are egging on a nonsituation that should have been dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME.

Instead of calling someone out for cheating and "Letting you decide", why don't you come to the table with facts, instead of accusations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bluedevil27 wrote:Can't someone just refuse to sign the scoring sheet afterwards if the other player constantly cheated the whole time? I don't think its enough to just knock the guy on sportsmanship. If the entire game, your opponent was trying to cheat (and you called him out for everything that you saw, but wasn't able to catch everything) is it legit to not sign the scoring sheet and bring up the problem with the TO? (This is regardless if you won/lost/drew)

Yes. and then you take the issue up with the judges, officiating the tourney. It's not hard.

If you want to cheat in a tourny of thie caliber, you quickly get the picture that you seriously messed your trousers.

@12thRonin: Where did I say that - I said YOU have dominion over YOUR OWN game. Period. If you want to play, it is up to you to make sure our game is on the level. the Judges are there as a resource and to arbitrate issues as they arise. Use them. Comparing 40K to competitive sports is folly. Always will be.

@Grot 6: There is no question that this individual needs to have his play history examined and there very well could be an issue here. It is something we take seriously and are looking into. That said, I do not agree with the way BoK has gone about this. It is drama for drama's sake and is absolutely something that should have been dealt with at the convention by any of the numerous people claiming they had an issue with his playstyle or list. BoK is looking for drama, knows very where to find it and knows how to fan it. It will eventually backfire and cause undue irrevocable damage to someone's hobby life and the community in general. This is not the answer to dealing with cheating - intentional or not.

Grot 6 wrote:

tastytaste wrote:-Dakkaites

After much work I finally finished my report on cheating during a top table match at Adepticon. I want to let you the community decide on does this behavior rise to the level of cheating or is it just a case of sour apples? Check out my blog for everything you need to know.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3088

PS: Blackmoor was standing on table away so I want to know what his perspective is on this whole thing.

1. Your camera angle was craptastic, you have no right putting a guy out on front street with that bullgak film with only YOUR supposed side of it.

2. The fallback was gaked to begin with, the guy on the red side of the table looked like a total tool bag measuring his inches in 3 inch intervals. WTF was that about? Along side the gak camera angle, we see a guy running the wrong way in fallback.

3. YOU put it out that they are cheating, then put it up on a website. SO.... What did the judges say about it AT THE TIME OF THE GAME?

4. Missle launchers... hmmm so was it 3 or 4? Who called him on it the first time it happened? WHY then would it have to happen a second time without calling him out and calling a judge?

5. Adepticon STILL brings the pogues out to play. THAT film you showed was an example of a no bull CHERRY argument. Anyone worth thier salt already KNOWS that that was a BS argument, and that it went on for more then a minute tells me that someone or TWO needs to go back and read thier rule books and codex's.

6. The fact that you would bring this to Dakka, instead of leaving it on your own site, where you have alrady crucified this guy in public record doesn't say much for you, either.

From what we see here, YOU have the guy already pegged, and are egging on a nonsituation that should have been dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME.

Instead of calling someone out for cheating and "Letting you decide", why don't you come to the table with facts, instead of accusations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bluedevil27 wrote:Can't someone just refuse to sign the scoring sheet afterwards if the other player constantly cheated the whole time? I don't think its enough to just knock the guy on sportsmanship. If the entire game, your opponent was trying to cheat (and you called him out for everything that you saw, but wasn't able to catch everything) is it legit to not sign the scoring sheet and bring up the problem with the TO? (This is regardless if you won/lost/drew)

Yes. and then you take the issue up with the judges, officiating the tourney. It's not hard.

If you want to cheat in a tourny of thie caliber, you quickly get the picture that you seriously messed your trousers.

I think if you took the time to read the post and not just the video it would explain a few things As well as the video was what it was because my normal video means failed so I went to a back up. I put it up on Dakka because it is the only forum I follow as it is also a place where some MODs and players attended the event so I thought they could bring some perspective since they were there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matthias wrote:@12thRonin: Where did I say that - I said YOU have dominion over YOUR OWN game. Period. If you want to play, it is up to you to make sure our game is on the level. the Judges are there as a resource and to arbitrate issues as they arise. Use them. Comparing 40K to competitive sports is folly. Always will be.

@Grot 6: There is no question that this individual needs to have his play history examined and there very well could be an issue here. It is something we take seriously and are looking into. That said, I do not agree with the way BoK has gone about this. It is drama for drama's sake and is absolutely something that should have been dealt with at the convention by any of the numerous people claiming they had an issue with his playstyle or list. BoK is looking for drama, knows very where to find it and knows how to fan it. It will eventually backfire and cause undue irrevocable damage to someone's hobby life and the community in general. This is not the answer to dealing with cheating - intentional or not.

I think cheating is a serious problem and people need to know their is consequences. This is not about drama this is about making a better tournament scene. Doing things behind closed doors does not really teach them a lesson as they go to another place and pull the same stuff. My hope was by putting it up we could find comfirm any past behavior and some have posted about him cheating last year by doing the exact same thing.

tastytaste wrote:I think cheating is a serious problem and people need to know their is consequences. This is not about drama this is about making a better tournament scene. Doing things behind closed doors does not really teach them a lesson as they go to another place and pull the same stuff. My hope was by putting it up we could find comfirm any past behavior and some have posted about him cheating last year by doing the exact same thing.

And we don't take it seriously? We have been running this event for 8 straight years and smaller events long before that. Our staff has run/staffed various GW GT's and Games Day event over the past decade. We have seen everything under the sun and are not in denial about the toxic nature of tournaments/competitions. No one wants to deal with this behind closed doors. Cheaters will always be exposed, DQ'd, zeroed for the round...but it needs to be brought to us.

They way you present it 100% self-serving and meant to manufacture drama. Why wasn't a single judge during the event spoken to? Why was the community even baited with this before you confirmed anything? Why didn't you contact us and inquire about our history with said person? There are many more respectable paths you could have traveled any of which would earn you 100% of my support. You attended our convention with no intention of playing in any events. You came to film games and you knew exactly what you would find if you looked hard enough. Mission accomplished! Next event!

I have to agree with Matthias. I didn't attend the event but that was mostly due to finances. The way BoK is presenting it does nothing but hurt the community. Especially since he didn't contact the staff running the event either there or after he got home. He just posted it to boost his blog hit count. Which I actually refused to go look at based on the way it was handled.

P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

kronk wrote:

warboss wrote: public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."


Wow.


Edit: I have no problem being filmed at an event, mind you, but I respect other's rights to privacy. If people are watching, they better keep their damned mouths shut, though.

I'm sorry but you do not have the right to privacy in this situation. You are in a public place (and no I do not mean public property) and have no expectation to privacy and furthermore filming your game is not necessarily filming you. It would only be improper to film the event if the hotel management or the people running the event had rules against that. Remember you might be at a hotel but you are not in your room. What expectation of privacy is there in a room with several hundred people?

I have to agree with Matthais and what he said. You should have immediately contacted a judge(s) when you saw this occurring. The judges at Adepticon are very knowledgable and fair. I'm sure if you had talked to them this could have been resolved immediately.

G

Hulksmash wrote:I have to agree with Matthias. I didn't attend the event but that was mostly due to finances. The way BoK is presenting it does nothing but hurt the community. Especially since he didn't contact the staff running the event either there or after he got home. He just posted it to boost his blog hit count. Which I actually refused to go look at based on the way it was handled.

Well the truth is I did not know of the cheating till after the game and people told me to check the video so I did. Adepticon has a copy of it. Members of the staff knew of a problem a few hours after the event. My mistake was building the hype, I should of waited before I opened my mouth till I had compiled all the evidence.

How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

I said the manner in which you presented the cheating hurts the community. Not exposing cheating in and of itself.

If you'd talked to the Adepticon people first and worked with them and then penned an article that exposed the cheating while at the same time showing how it was handled as well as the end result. You could have gotten your "scoop" while not making one of the largest events in the US (which makes it an ambassador of our hobby whether we like it or not) look bad.

It reflects poorly on you as well because of the way you presented it. I used to check out your site from time to time but based on how this was handled I won't be. Personally as a TO I'd deny you entry to my event since you only seem excited to report the negatives.

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

tastytaste wrote:Well the truth is I did not know of the cheating till after the game and people told me to check the video so I did. Adepticon has a copy of it. Members of the staff knew of a problem a few hours after the event. My mistake was building the hype, I should of waited before I opened my mouth till I had compiled all the evidence.

How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

This is untrue. Hank had dinner with Larry and JWolf after the event. They mentioned they thought there was shadiness going on in the final game and they might have video proof. Hank told them to give him a copy of the video and we would look at it. We never got that video. The next we heard of it was on your blog. We were never given the chance to review the evidence or act on it.

Exposing cheating does not hurt the community. Manufacturing drama and playing sheriff does.

tastytaste wrote:
How does exposing cheating hurt the community?

I don't think I would say it hurt the community. However, I think some people could look at this situation you muckraked up and say, "See that's why I don't go to tournaments, because everyone cheats". And we have seen this very sentiment in this thread.

My personal problem with this whole thing is that it wasn't really that blatant. I mean yes their were some problems, and I think the guy should be disqualified for using the extra model. But the sensationalized "Geraldo and Al capones vault" nature of this thing kind of turns me off.

I mean it doesn't even rise to the level of the bloodcrushers on wrong sized bases cheat that happened at ard' boys a few years back.

GG

i gotta say...in a tournament event like adepticon, expect spectators and video/pictures. it happens, deal. if you dont want to be filmed, dont go. however i do agree that the second spectators start providing advise or questions or comments on the game at hand its time for them to shut it, and/or leave.

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

Frazzled wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I am covered from any privacy issues by blurring you out. Any other issue you want to cite about me taping you is moot since I am just taping the game, not you.

I would even edit the video so your face is replaced with angry Leonatos from 300.

And how are you going to pay your lawyer?

Really stop being ridiculous. You are starting to sound like a crazy person. Unless you have actually brought a lawsuit against someone for this just drop it. He wouldn't even have to pay a lawyer because a case so obviously without merit would be thrown out by the judge.

Hulksmash wrote:I said the manner in which you presented the cheating hurts the community. Not exposing cheating in and of itself.

If you'd talked to the Adepticon people first and worked with them and then penned an article that exposed the cheating while at the same time showing how it was handled as well as the end result. You could have gotten your "scoop" while not making one of the largest events in the US (which makes it an ambassador of our hobby whether we like it or not) look bad.

It reflects poorly on you as well because of the way you presented it. I used to check out your site from time to time but based on how this was handled I won't be. Personally as a TO I'd deny you entry to my event since you only seem excited to report the negatives.

Since you did not even look at my article how do you know what I said? No where in my article do I talk any smack about Adepticon. I said that Nick should of called over a TO. It was not Adepticon's fault it was player policing problem. Also did you see any of my oh 4 posts before about Adepticon with video highlighting everything positive? Or have you seen any of my other GT coverage where I promote events before and after they are over?

Or is this just an attempt to get this thread locked?

I'd just like to put my two cents in on the issue of video taping with or without permission.

As a professional photographer I have some knowledge of this issue.

To video/photograph someone without their permission (in the US), no matter where it is, public/private property, public/private venue, it doesn't matter, you can open yourself up to all kinds of legal actions.

You can be sued. Even if you receive a verbal agreement to video/photo someone you can still be sued. The only way to make sure you're ironclad is to have the person sign a model release, stating explicitly what the video/photo is going to be used for.

I know about this because as I said, I am a professional photographer and have been sued several times for this very reason.

When I was in collage I photographed a girlfriend of mine nude. Her face wasn't in the photographs and they were only for art purposes. She posed for the photographs, so obviously she was ok with it. Later after collage, and after we broke up, I ended up selling prints of the nudes. When she found out, just to spite me, she sued me. I had to, by court order, give her all the money i recieved for selling said prints, and destroy the negatives.

Needless to say I have gotten model releases since.

Also legal issues aside, its just downright rude to videotape someone without their permission.

Daggermaw wrote:I'd just like to put my two cents in on the issue of video taping with or without permission.

As a professional photographer I have some knowledge of this issue.

To video/photograph someone without their permission (in the US), no matter where it is, public/private property, public/private venue, it doesn't matter, you can open yourself up to all kinds of legal actions.

You can be sued. Even if you receive a verbal agreement to video/photo someone you can still be sued. The only way to make sure you're ironclad is to have the person sign a model release, stating explicitly what the video/photo is going to be used for.

I know about this because as I said, I am a professional photographer and have been sued several times for this very reason.

When I was in collage I photographed a girlfriend of mine nude. Her face wasn't in the photographs and they were only for art purposes. She posed for the photographs, so obviously she was ok with it. Later after collage, and after we broke up, I ended up selling prints of the nudes. When she found out just to spit me she sued me. I had to, by court order, give her all the money i recieved for selling said prints, and destroy the negatives.

Needless to say I have gotten model releases since.

Also legal issues aside, its just downright rude to videotape someone without their permission.

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

As one of the Tournament Organizers for the Gladiator and a long-time Dakka-ite, I feel like I should add something to this thread.

#1 - As a tournament organizer, it's not my job to spot cheating. Neither is it the job of my staff. All of us have one mission: to make sure that the event runs as smoothly as possible and that the players have as good a time as possible. We simply don't have the staff to keep an eye on 136 players all day long, and to even try would be ludicrous.

#2 - Having said that, we take cheating and other forms of toolery very seriously. We're all aware that as the largest and most well-known fan-run convention, its a given that what happens is going to be under the microscope. Hey, we're a hobby of people who take figs about the size of our thumbs and paint details the size of pinheads. Some slight amount of OCD kinda comes with the package.

But cheating and other forms of toolery will not be tolerated in the Gladiator, or at any other event at AdeptiCon. However, as I said, we don't have the staffing or desire to monitor 136 players, and we don't even try. As I said at the beginning of the tournament, while the first rule of the Gladiator is "No Whining," that doesn't include things like rules questions and things that would fall into the sportsmanship category. For those, we depend on players to bring matters to our attention.

I specifically instructed my rules judges NOT to go out and look for people who were breaking rules. Because if two players are ok with how their game is being played, who am I to tell them that they're doing it wrong.

But if people brought stuff to our attention, we dealt with it. A few warnings were issued, which mostly seemed to take care of the problem. In the most serious case, we had to tell a player that his score for that round was going to be zeroed. (And before anyone asks, I won't tell who it was, and if you happen to know, I'd ask that you not share it either). But in every case, it was something that was brought to our attention by the players themselves.

#3 - On videotaping people without their consent - aside from the legal ramifications (and I now must insert the standard "I am not a lawyer" caveat) taking pictures of people is always a crapshoot. Always get permission. Always. Especially if you're going to publish. Never forget the 11th Commandment: Thou shalt always cover thy ass.

You want to know why I'm confident of being able to make a living (eventually) as a lawyer...its because people don't listen to advice from people who know what they're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tastytaste wrote:
I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Just because you're not doing it for profit doesn't necessarily mean you're in the clear. You could still (and again, I'm not a lawyer) be opening yourself up to some serious legal liabilities.

tastytaste wrote:

Or is this just an attempt to get this thread locked?

You had to know the clock started ticking on this thread from the second it was posted, right?

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Receiving monetary compensation has nothing to do with it, because I received money, I had to give it to her.

If I didn't sell them she still could've sued me to have the negatives destroyed. Its all about permissions.

Also, just to play devil's advocate, telling someone you're video taping them isn't getting permission.

I have no objection to having someone video tape me while playing, I have nothing to hide, well except for maybe some ignorance about the game, but some people on here seem to be throwing out some ridiculous statements about being able to film in public without permission.

Daggermaw wrote:

I have no ads on my site so no money being made. Everyone in the game knew they were getting video taped.

Receiving monetary compensation has nothing to do with it, because I received money, I had to give it to her.

If I didn't sell them she still could've sued me to have the negatives destroyed. Its all about permissions.

Also, just to play devil's advocate, telling someone you're video taping them isn't getting permission.

I have no objection to having someone video tape me while playing, I have nothing to hide, well except for maybe some ignorance about the game, but some people on here seem to be throwing out some ridiculous statements about being able to film in public without permission.

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

Because youtube absolves itself of all responsibility in its terms of use. People could sue the uploader of the video though. Its mostly for the same reason that people back down from GW, suing someone is expensive.

I guess the real question would be, if you had asked him to video tape the game and he said no, what would you have done?

Daggermaw wrote:

I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

Because youtube absolves itself of all responsibility in its terms of use. People could sue the uploader of the video though. Its mostly for the same reason that people back down from GW, suing someone is expensive.

You hit it on the head it is expensive =)

tastytaste wrote:I wonder why more people do not sue over youtube and various other Internet exposures...

The Star Wars kid got a tidy sum of money for his exposure. It does happen.

Darkwynn wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

I jut want to bring this up again: very classy on Darkwynn's part.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Matthias wrote:P.S. This is being looked into by a number of AdeptiCon staff. If required, the matter will be handled - in the open and the results of the game will be reversed. Something we could have dealt with last Sunday...at like 3:30PM...before results were posted...but this is the better story I suppose...

Matt, I don't want my scores alter or changed. Lets move on it was my fault for not calling it over.

That's a serious class act, in the spirit of preventing further drama. Major thumbs up dude.

I don't want Adepticon hurt by this, they work very hard putting on a event like this and they are all great people. I wouldn't want anything on them to reflect bad by any means. To me in the Grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. Lets move on and promote the hobby and bring more people there. Adepticon is one of the best events and I don't want something like this to bring it down one bit.

I jut want to bring this up again: very classy on Darkwynn's part.

It should go to Mattias for running a great a event not me.

I'd like to thank Tastytaste for his post. Disregarding the pointless derailing regarding photographic legalities, it's been an interesting look at some possibly shady play.

Not having gone to a major tournament, but reading about plenty of possible cheats (deliberate or accidental through sloppy play), I found it enlightening. Stuff moves so quickly, some issues seem small (imprecise measuring) and you don't want to get too nitpicky and risk having your sportsmanship score dinged (if you care about such things), so it's neat to see an example in real time to consider how you'd react.

Grot 6 wrote:
1. Your camera angle was craptastic, you have no right putting a guy out on front street with that bullgak film with only YOUR supposed side of it.

From his site, it appears he was just taking pictures and video of the event, not hunting for cheating and getting the best irrefutable evidence for use in a court case. Lesson learned: if you don't have multi-million dollar professional recording equipment from all angles, don't bother.

Grot 6 wrote:
3. YOU put it out that they are cheating, then put it up on a website. SO.... What did the judges say about it AT THE TIME OF THE GAME?

As you already know there aren't refs at each table watching the game, and no player requested one (who would have only been present after a cheating event), so this is a meaningless point to make. Whether or not an act was caught by a referee doesn't determine whether cheating existed or not.

Grot 6 wrote:
4. Missle launchers... hmmm so was it 3 or 4? Who called him on it the first time it happened? WHY then would it have to happen a second time without calling him out and calling a judge?

Are you suggesting that his previous opponent should have told his subsequent opponent?

Grot 6 wrote:6. The fact that you would bring this to Dakka, instead of leaving it on your own site, where you have alrady crucified this guy in public record doesn't say much for you, either.

Plenty of other people posts links to their own sites with news, products, etc. Just because you disapprove of this thread doesn't mean the linking concept is wrong.

Grot 6 wrote:From what we see here, YOU have the guy already pegged, and are egging on a nonsituation that should have been dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME.

Instead of calling someone out for cheating and "Letting you decide", why don't you come to the table with facts, instead of accusations?

He didn't egg anything on...at least not at the time. He just filmed what was going on, saw something that seemed a little off, a recorded it specifically. He reported it as such, showed the video, so what more do you want? Depositions from both plyers and all observers? Again, letting things be "dealt with IN HOUSE AT THE GAME" (which, in this case, meant not dealt with at all) doesn't have any bearing on whether or not cheating occurred, only if it was caught by event staff.

Speaking of event staff, these comments caught my attention, too:

Centurian99 wrote:
But if people brought stuff to our attention, we dealt with it. A few warnings were issued, which mostly seemed to take care of the problem. In the most serious case, we had to tell a player that his score for that round was going to be zeroed. (And before anyone asks, I won't tell who it was, and if you happen to know, I'd ask that you not share it either). But in every case, it was something that was brought to our attention by the players themselves.

I'd be curious to hear what kind of situations tournament organizers receive, and how they are handled. What if one player uses one set of dice for leadership rolls and another for shooting...could be legit cheating or silly superstition. Are dice tested? Does the "suspected" player just stop using different dice for the rest of the match and use them again in the next round?

What if your opponent keeps adding an inch or two to movement and you call a ref over...does he stay and watch the whole game? If not, and the opponent starts it up again, what happens? He denies it, the game comes to a standstill and time runs out in turn 3 or something...if the score stands because nothing can be proved either way, I can see why people may avoid calling refs and just suck it up.

What kind of event gets your score "zeroed out"? I know you may be hesitant to divulge to avoid identifying the individual, but with most actual crimes you have an idea of what the punishment is. Here, I have no idea how issues are handled, investigatively or punitively. I don't even have a clue as to how common it is.

Brother Ramses wrote:
And I would have kept taping and then just blurred your face out before posting it online. Problem solved.

I'm with frazz on this one. Get your youtube out my god damned game. While you're at it, get offa my lawn.

Due to the lametacular ability of people to comply with moderator requests to stay on original topic (see page 4), and not discuss filming in general at tourneys, and the increasingly heated nature of discussion related to the original issue, I'm locking the thread so the anti/pro film brigades can start their own thread, and everyone else can have a breather....