The off-topic forum on Dakka is provided as a place for people to have polite discussions about non-miniature wargaming topics, and currently topics of any nature can be posted there. However, political and religious discussions tend to have a way to make people react very defensively and negatively towards any viewpoint that isn't shared by themselves and that often results in threads that have to be locked or edited by our moderators (which is work for them).

Would you prefer if Dakka's off-topic forum rules forbade political and/or religious discussions? Or do you think that their inclusion provides a healthy outlet for sentiments that would otherwise creep into other forum threads on the site?

I agree that such "discussions" should be actively discouraged if for no other reason than the fact that it is impossible for most people to separate their emotions from their beliefs. If someone has invested a great deal of emotion into whatever they believe, they are automatically defensive when someone questions their belief and prone to striking out (in written form here).

Agnosto, people can't separate their emotions from their gaming opinions, let alone political and religious views. While Dakka is a gaming forum, the off topic forum is set aside for non-gaming discussions. Even though I don't actively participate in them, I believe that they would crop up in other threads if an area were not set aside for them.

Gavin Thorne wrote:Agnosto, people can't separate their emotions from their gaming opinions, let alone political and religious views. While Dakka is a gaming forum, the off topic forum is set aside for non-gaming discussions. Even though I don't actively participate in them, I believe that they would crop up in other threads if an area were not set aside for them.

Apples and oranges. Most rules discussions, even heated ones, wind up with one party or the other just thinking, "fine, whatever" and going on with their life. I dare you to get "pro-life" and "pro-choice" people in the same discussion and witness the same result. These are completely different levels of emotional investment (for most people).

These are just my thoughts on the matter.

I think they are fine to continue.. Thats what the off topic forum is for.

I mean there is a guy, I forgot who has a big 'A' in his signature. If you click on it it identifies him as an atheist. Not a big deal is it..

I think you would be better off saying no abortion arguments/discussion.. IF you have to censor something.. But I never want more censorship.

If people wish to air their political preferences there are so many other more fitting outlets than Dakka.

I don't see that censorship is an issue here.

Dakka Dakka is better than Yakka Yakka to paraphrase and twist ol' Winnie's words

Get rid of them. Both politics and religion. It has absolutely NO place here. A forum I frequent outside of Dakka has religious discussion outright banned simply to keep drama from erupting into a wildfire. With both Politics and Religion, it just comes down to "My beleif is better than yours, and yours is trash.", and when that is contested an all-out flame fest just ensues. I'm tired of it.

So, Heres an idea:

Keep the wargaming to the wargaming forums, (Thats what this forum is for!)
Keep the Religious talk to the religion forums, (We don't need to know about Jesus in a wargaming forum.)
Keep the Politics to the politics forums. ( X politician is an idiot, we know. Don't care.)

Problem solved.

I think that they should be allowed to be posted as long as the people don't rage over someone else.

I don't think they should be forbidden, just maybe moderated a bit more. There seems to be a lot of genuine attempts at reasonable discussion that get trolled and spammed into flame wars.

While a miniature web site is not the first place I would think of to seek religious insight, I think it should be allowed. People talk religion and politics with their friends and co-works all the time. Why wouldn't people be able to do that with their online friends too?

In any forums where political and religous topics are allowed they almost always turn into a one-upping pissing match where people start intentionally trying to rile someone up in most cases.

Dont allow it!

Personally, I agree that they just need to be a bit more strictly moderated. I've seen numerous religious/political topics get into flame wars, and then the thread got locked. On the other hand, there are people on these boards who are capable of having calm, even-minded discussions about the topics. It's punishing the whole for the acts of the few (Though I admit that it may well be a majority of flamers and trolls who go to religious/political discussions in the first place) and I don't think it's necessary to go for an all-out ban on the topics.

I think that if they kept it going to would just piss a whole bunch of people off because a lot of people have different presprectives.

They probabbly shouldn't have it, But
Honestly I dont Really care.

I think if there was a debates section where religous, political and other more serious subjects could, the heated disscussion could be contained

I think both should be allowed, but Moderated more. It seems like most threads become Lock-worthy after the 2nd-4th page.

Is this seriously being considered? Some people can't control their emotions on the internet, I know (and Dakka is by no means alone in this), but the majority of us (just barely perhaps) are capable of having mature discussions surely?

Flashman wrote:Is this seriously being considered? Some people can't control their emotions on the internet, I know (and Dakka is by no means alone in this), but the majority of us (just barely perhaps) are capable of having mature discussions surely?

I think your idea of a 'majority' is a bit distorted. There are a lot of people that like to take their anonymousity to their advantage and stir up a shitfest whenever they can. I think the fact that nearly every single rampant politics/religion thread has been closed without a civil ending to it has spoken a lot. Its just a waste of time for the people that work hard at keeping this forum clean. They shouldn't have to deal with that crap.

Openmindedness is an amazing thing. Everyone should be open minded. But a person should always tread their ground where its appropriate. So if they want to talk religion? Go to a religion forum, its what its made for.

I mean, I'm a member of Airsoft Canada, Basically the airsoft hobbyists hub for everything airsoft in canada. Just recently people started asking medical questions on the off topic and honestly expected an educated answer.

Sure, there could be one out of the thousands that frequent the site that knows a bit about medical issues... But seriously.

Its an airsoft forum, not an online clinic.

This very thing applies to DakkaDakka here. Dakkadakka is a wargaming/miniature creativity forum, I don't see why and how people asserting their beleifs in politics or their religion is really an appropriate thing here. If you sign up on this forum, you sign up to get involved with a community that shares simular interests : Miniatures and model painting. One of the other. We didn't sign up to debate what religion is better. Why your government sucks or whatever.

Miniatures, wargaming, tabletop hobby. Leave it to that, anything else is pretty much useless banter that will probably end up being on the Locked Thread list.

I voted either way. I'd honestly prefer either extreme over the sometimes confusing middle-ground.

I don't care either way until they begin to get offensive to members.

I think that if it's gotten to the point that we're having a poll appearing on the Front Page of DakkaDakka.com then it means that something should be done about it.

It's very rare anyway that people are going to be open-minded on topics as such, not saying that not everyone is narrow-minded, but very few people want to accept other opinions on these topics and it is very literally human nature not to.

I vote that it is banned for the following reasons

1. Less needless work for admins
2. Save people the anger
3. Cut down on spam in that section perhaps? (I don't visit it much)

political and religious discussions tend to have a way to make people react very defensively and negatively towards any viewpoint that isn't shared by themselves and that often results in threads that have to be locked or edited by our moderators (which is work for them).

Understatement of the year.

Would you prefer if Dakka's off-topic forum rules forbade political and/or religious discussions?

Yes, there's no need for something so persistently destructive on a forum devoted to toy soldiers and escapist fun. There are plenty of other places fanatics can go to insult or threaten each other over ideology.

Politics and Religion are no different than discussions about 'Cheese' and soft scores.

As long as the discussion doesn't include attacks, it should be fine.

Sex, religion, and politics; don't discuss at work and don't discuss on dakka.

There are plenty of other websites dedicated to one or more of the three.

Game on.

If someone doesn't want to participate in such a conversation they don't have to click on the link. Very easily solved imho.

If I can avoid posts by people I view as pompous asses then they can avoid political/religious conversations

Politics and Religion are no different than discussions about 'Cheese' and soft scores. As long as the discussion doesn't include attacks, it should be fine.

Except that it regularly results in attacks and worse, which is why a poll on possibly eliminating that part of the forum is being taken in the first place.

BrassScorpion wrote:Except that it regularly results in attacks and worse, which is why a poll on possibly eliminating that part of the forum is being taken in the first place.

I don't see what can possibly be "worse" over a forum. Generally, the worst someone can do is attempt to offend my with some juvenile assault composed of over-used, thoughtless, words. It sure huts....:( (/sarcasm off). I guess I am just thick skinned. Sensitive people are just part of life. I just ignore them and move on my way.

Either way, censorship is never the answer as far as I am concerned. I don't care what they choose to do with their forums, as it is there decision and "freedom of speech" doesn't exist as you are in a private domain; however, I still view censorship as a weak fix and I am entitled to my opinion because they asked me for it

I feel if it was moderated fairly it could work. People who want to "discuss" such things can. Others who do not can pass. I have not been on Dakka much as of late due to a sour taste I was left with over moderation. No names here. A person of religion "A" was straightening out some misconceptions of said religion, and the conversation continued to degenerate. The moderator did nothing to change the tone of the discussion, but continued posting in the thread as if it wasn't going on. An informative post came up about religion "B", and the moderator involved in the other conversation quickly locked the thread. I PM'd him about it and got a dodgy answer, that was vague and did not answer my question. It offered no counter points. I contacted the OP and stated I felt he was not being inflammatory in his post but informative.

As I said, if moderated fairly yes it can be done. I have not seen that, admittedly after that I have not been on much. To make a long story short, I voted "No it doesn't belong here".

Shut it down. Some of the trolls there post for no other reason except to flame bait. A couple of the more vocal idiots don't post anywhere else on the forum that I can see.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Politics and Religion are no different than discussions about 'Cheese' and soft scores. As long as the discussion doesn't include attacks, it should be fine.

Except that it regularly results in attacks and worse

And so do topics about Cheese and soft scores. Thus my point.

Granted, I don't have a horse in this race really because I don't venture into the OT forums.

Here's a thought:

Do we have room for separate forums for religion and politics? A gaming-centered forum I sometimes frequent has the following:

"The Political Mudpit:
Use this forum to discuss current events and specific individuals in politics today."

"Ethos, Mores, et Monastica:
Discuss ethics, morals, religion and philosophy in here."
Furthermore, they have a special forum specifically reserved for debating. Does Dakka have the resources to pull this off?

I think it would be unwise to ban such discussions. While based on the discussion of wargaming, DakkaDakka is still a community. As such, its members should have opportunities to discuss a wide variety of topics with this community.

Fascists and heretics, the lot of ya!

Im a heretic,so,i hate it when people start to burn me becuase i dont worship some fake god/godess.I dotn think it belongs.

I feel very strongly about this.

OT is the socializing section of Dakka. Part of being in a community with other people is a diversity of opinions. That includes opinions about touchy subjects like religion and politics. I have found myself embroiled in both. As a practicing Catholic, I have taken the time to ignore flaming from self-proclaimed believers and non-believers alike and have tried to reasonably discuss my faith. The result? Most of the time, when I'm not a jerk other people aren't jerks to me. Politics is a bit trickier. I find myself just having to keep my mouth shut. Even so, I don't think that Dakka should shrink it's space for open and frank discussion. It's true that some threads are doomed to be insulting and uselessly provocative from the start. But that's what we have mods for. And if there aren't enough that can patrol/are willing to trawl OT for politics and religion threads then I volunteer.

I'm with Manchu on this. There are a number of people here who want to, or are willing to discuss these topics in a relatively level headed way, and there will always be someone within the community who "just wants to know x" about a religion, belief or political subject.

I personally feel that while there are people who go out of control and generally try to start fires, there is also a problem from the other end, with over zealous modding (granted, this is nowhere near as common and generally more intelligible than most flames ) regards politics and especially religion.

There definately needs to be a clearer line between "this person is abusing what I think and believe under the guise of free speach" (as much as speach is free within the confines of polite society and the Dakka T&C) and "I do not share this belief, but I will defend their right to communicate it in a rational way".

Spot on Manchu

I would add that most of the world's problems largely stem from religious and political intolerance. Internet forums are the ideal place to tackle and deconstruct extreme views with reasoned discussion.

And if you don't want to take part, the ability to leave said discussion is only a click away.

Manchu +1

While there is a fair amount of trolling and flamewars, I've seen plenty of avid and even enlightening discussions on such topics in the OT forum, even if I didn't necessarily agree with them.

I could say more, but really Manchu and the following posts nailed it for me.

To "ban" political and religous in the OT forum would be creepy, because later when you lock threads and ban people because they keep posting their religous and political beliefs in the OT (where this rightly belongs) it would be the same as pissing on most Constitutions of countries all over the world, like "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom of Religion". You just have to accept that there is always some flame around these topics.

I don't see the problem, frankly. If people want to post on those subjects, let them. IMO the Off-Topic forum keeps dakkadakka a more interesting website.

Ppl already made up their mind what to believe in before they click a thread.

I dont believe it'll effect anything , but sure it'll get messy -_-

LunaHound wrote:Ppl already made up their mind what to believe in before they click a thread.

Not always. Some people are sitting on the fence, or will come into a thread with certain ideas which they may see to be wrong or inaccurate due to factual evidence shown within the course of the thread.

For example, during the course of a (fairly) recent discussion on global warming, I discovered a number of facts and theories that I was not aware of that swayed my mind in a number of ways.

And as I mentioned, there will be people who just want to know peoples points of views and the reasons behind them, who either have no real view on the subject but want to learn what others think, or people who want to be convinced one way or the other.

Besides which, the only way to stem the tide of ignorance is with frank and open discussion. No matter what you say, there will always be at least one person who is offended by it, but you cannot shut down all communication because of that. The best way, in my view, is to try to encorage people to leave the language and as many emotions as possible at the door and try to discuss things in as civil way as possible.

Yes ur right silvermk2 , i should be asleep xD

Freedom of speech, the most important thing in any civilised society, and the thing the religious zealots in the USA love to crow on about...

Unless your pointing out how many negative things can come out of religion. Then they DEMAND your silence.

Hypocricy sickens me, and its one of the reasons i am so vocally critical of the religious. Freedom of speech unless you agree with me!

It would be funny if it didnt make me want to vomit.

I vote for more moderation, not necessarily censorship - but just strong reminders to be polite.
Also perhaps the most opinionated and conservative of your moderators (Frazz) should keep his opinions to himself while posting under his moderator account. Personal opinions are fine, but when you're acting as a representative for a larger entity, it isn't wise to let personal opinions interfere.
It would be great for the site if those discussions were taken elsewhere. I honestly don't go to the off topic forum anymore because my personal views differ so greatly from the majority, and I feel like my voice will drown in all of the hate, so I don't bother.
In short, keep 'em, but only if you can control them better.

On the whole "Freedom of Speech" and "Democracy" things, as they pertain to Dakka Dakka?

NEITHER really apply in the end.

At least, not on a privately (for all intents and purposes) owned Forum on the Internet.

This is much more of an "Enlightened Dictatorship", or some such!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Owain wrote:Here's a thought:

Do we have room for separate forums for religion and politics? A gaming-centered forum I sometimes frequent has the following:

"The Political Mudpit:
Use this forum to discuss current events and specific individuals in politics today."

"Ethos, Mores, et Monastica:
Discuss ethics, morals, religion and philosophy in here."
Furthermore, they have a special forum specifically reserved for debating. Does Dakka have the resources to pull this off?

I think it would be unwise to ban such discussions. While based on the discussion of wargaming, DakkaDakka is still a community. As such, its members should have opportunities to discuss a wide variety of topics with this community.

Actually, this doesn't sound like a bad idea...

That way, the OT Forum can return to being about books, TV, movies, comics, etc. and the Other Off Topic Forum (TBD) can be about politics and religion?

Maybe...

People keep misperceiving. I'm never posting as a Mod unless I say I'm posting as a Mod. Then its all angry bite bite BLOOD THERE'S JUST SO MUCH BLOOD!

I think OT should be subdivided into 27 subsections. That way, when I enter each subsection, its just me and the poor unfortunate innocently reading something there. Let us all bask in the sweet image of Frazzled, running amok, one subdirectory at a time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

That way, the OT Forum can return to being about books, TV, movies, comics, etc. and the Other Off Topic Forum (The House of Pain) can be about politics and religion?

Maybe...

Name suggestion, complete.

He who breaks the Law, must go to the House of Pain!

mattyrm wrote:Freedom of speech, the most important thing in any civilised society, and the thing the religious zealots in the USA love to crow on about...

Unless your pointing out how many negative things can come out of religion. Then they DEMAND your silence.

Hypocricy sickens me, and its one of the reasons i am so vocally critical of the religious. Freedom of speech unless you agree with me!

It would be funny if it didnt make me want to vomit.

Is it me, or is this a perfect example of the problem in the OT forum?

Manchu wrote:OT is the socializing section of Dakka. Part of being in a community with other people is a diversity of opinions. That includes opinions about touchy subjects like religion and politics.

While having a community of people does certainly mean that you wind up with a bunch of people with differing opinions, in social situations in real life, people are more likely to either not discuss religion or politics at all (due to understanding that it tends to lead to arguments) or at the very least not push it too far (due to understanding that this may result in bodily harm).

The internet allows people much more freedom to 'tell it like it is' without having to worry about the repercussions... and so these topics are pretty much doomed to descend into silliness.

Locclo wrote:Personally, I agree that they just need to be a bit more strictly moderated.

This seems to be a recurring theme in this thread... Something to consider on that: The Dakka moderators signed up for the job because Dakka is a part of their hobby. As a wargaming site.

While OT has become a part of that site, it's a minor one. It's not the focus of the site, nor is it at all interesting for a lot of us ('us' as in dakka users, rather than just mods specifically).

Asking for the mods to waste more of their time in that one subsection of the site that has nothing to do with why they actually came here in the first place seems like a much worse idea than simply asking people not to discuss contentious issues, as it means less time for them to spend productively on the parts of the site that actually matter to the hobby.

The Off-topic section should be a place to chat about non-gaming stuff that interests you. Not a political and religious debate board. There are political and religious forums for that.

agnosto wrote:I agree that such "discussions" should be actively discouraged if for no other reason than the fact that it is impossible for most people to separate their emotions from their beliefs. If someone has invested a great deal of emotion into whatever they believe, they are automatically defensive when someone questions their belief and prone to striking out (in written form here).

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I do believe they should remain, if only to keep such discussions away from other forums.

Bottom line:

When people cross into crass accusations and mudflinging that is not in a humorous or good natured way (find any such beast- I dare you!), you must intervene, or else you get thread spams with nothing inherently good about the conversation or the nature of the discussion.

Freedom of the intrawebs is not freedom as defined by a US Constitution. We are guests in a person's house, and if shouting fire over and over again offends the host, we get kicked out. That is how the forum should treat people who continue to hurt others in how they present their point of view or attempt to sway others with insults and slander.

Manchu wrote:I feel very strongly about this.

OT is the socializing section of Dakka. Part of being in a community with other people is a diversity of opinions. That includes opinions about touchy subjects like religion and politics. I have found myself embroiled in both. As a practicing Catholic, I have taken the time to ignore flaming from self-proclaimed believers and non-believers alike and have tried to reasonably discuss my faith. The result? Most of the time, when I'm not a jerk other people aren't jerks to me. Politics is a bit trickier. I find myself just having to keep my mouth shut. Even so, I don't think that Dakka should shrink it's space for open and frank discussion. It's true that some threads are doomed to be insulting and uselessly provocative from the start. But that's what we have mods for. And if there aren't enough that can patrol/are willing to trawl OT for politics and religion threads then I volunteer.

While I don't agree with all of the above, most of it is spot on.
What we're allowed and not allowed to do is up to Dakka's owner, but if he doesn't mind then I think it would be best if we have the freedom to talk about whatever we like. Not being able to talk about religion and politics is a little extreme.
Facts:
1) Some of the posters on Dakka are often inflammatory with their posts.
2) Threads about religion and politics are more likely to be locked than others.
3) Politics and religion are touchy subjects for many of us, but most would prefer to be able to at least explain their own views.
4)Moderators usually only lock threads when there is good reason to.

Why take away the freedom to post threads on these subjects? While they almost certainly don't pertain to wargaming, neither do all the other threads in OT. If OT is going to be removed, then by all means, politics and religion don't need to be a subject for discussion. But while threads on the Old Spice commercials and other useless subjects are open, there is no need to close the threads that could be potentially useful to users on Dakka, who for whatever reason have questions or observations to state. No one has ever proven anything by getting angry, and the users that purposefully try to incite others to anger are usually ignored, and regarded as having nothing useful to say.

In short, they're not much of a problem. Let them stay, and hopefully the moderators will be able to cope as they always have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WarOne wrote:Bottom line:

When people cross into crass accusations and mudflinging that is not in a humorous or good natured way (find any such beast- I dare you!), you must intervene, or else you get thread spams with nothing inherently good about the conversation or the nature of the discussion.

Freedom of the intrawebs is not freedom as defined by a US Constitution. We are guests in a person's house, and if shouting fire over and over again offends the host, we get kicked out. That is how the forum should treat people who continue to hurt others in how they present their point of view or attempt to sway others with insults and slander.

Sounds good to me.

I can see a couple of specific arguments for banning OT discussions of politics and religion.

(1) This is a wargaming site. Go somewhere else to talk about politics and religion.

I guess we should have no more posting on RPGs, video games, fan fiction, etc, etc, if we follow this reductive logic. But that would be silly. Because people who are interested in wargaming often are also interested in those things. Many of them also happen to be interested in politics and religion. Pretty simple point, really. But there is something more subtle at work here. Dakka is not a just one shop in a mall of fora. It is a real and complete community unto itself. Some users, like myself, do not frequent other boards because Dakka is so very complete. To me, that is this site's second greatest strength. It's first greatest strength lies in the people who are already gathered together here. To wit, I don't discuss wargaming here merely because I just want to spread my opinions around. Rather, I post about wargaming on Dakka because I am interested in what other Dakka users think. Let me clarify: I not simply interested in what the kind of people who post on a page like Dakka think; no, I mean I am interested in what the specific posters (like Albatross, dogma, JEB, H.B.M.C., RedBeard, KilKrazy, Frazzled, Gwar, and on and on and on) actually using this site think. Similarly, I do not discuss religion and politics in the OT just to throw up my ideas like a blog. Rather, I am genuinely interested in what my Dakka buddies have to say. The argument in favor of banning political and religious discussion in OT seems to assume that every mention of these topics is only flame bait and nothing more. It also seems to assume that most users have no interest in actual dialog and only want to scream for the sake of screaming. In my experience, that is not usually the case. Certainly not enough to place a great burden on mods. Which brings me to the next specific argument . . .

(2) Mods don't have the time to monitor OT religion/politics threads.

This is like saying mods don't have time to do their jobs. Pretty unconvincing. I understand that this sentiment is plugged into "this is a wargaming site only" mentality but in point of fact, as I hope to have just demonstrated, this is NOT a "wargaming only site"; instead it is a "primarily wargaming site." I am not trying to understate the amount of work mods have to do in other sections of Dakka. If it is the case that there needs to be someone devoted to OT in order to prevent a ban on discussions of politics and religion then I again volunteer to do so. Saying that the problem of mods being overworked in more "on point" sections of Dakka can only be solved by banning discussions of politics and religion is weak on its face. First, there are certainly other solutions. Second, even if a ban is introduced mods will still have to trawl OT to lock threads that either start as or eventually become about politics and religion. So I think we should drop this argument for banning religious/political discussions altogether.

(3) Dakka users are too immature to have productive discussions about contentious topics.

First, let's assume this is true. If that's the case, then shut down YMDC immediately. Surely half of all mods' work will suddenly disappear. I know the immediate retort will be "but that's at least a wargaming topic" . . . well, I've already responded to this in the first paragraph: Dakka users are not merely wargamers.

Second--and I think more accurately--let's admit that this isn't true. Many of Dakka's regulars are in fact mature enough to talk about religion and politics without going bezerk. This even applies to the younger ones. Yes, there are exceptions. But these people are repeat offenders whose conduct constitutes a pretty tiny portion of what goes on in OT and at large. Let me very clearly emphasize this point to the cynical among Dakka's users and mods: 90% of the time or more flaming is not a result of the particular topic but rather a result of miscommunicated hostility; as soon as one party cools off and extends his/her metaphorical hand, the other party is almost always willing to shake it. I hate to say it, but mods are not always giving the best example in this regard. Neither are some of the regulars, for which we should take responsibility and commit to working harder at. If there are people who are not willing to reconcile and want to keep fighting then let's deal with them rather than blaming this poor behavior on a certain category of topics for discussion.

I find it amazing how many people actually condone censorship If it has its own "channel" and it stays there then I don't really care. As others have said, this is a community and sometimes we might want to talk about other things, if we talk about them in the right places its all good in my opinion.

For those that don't think "You Make Da Call" isn't a religious discussion though, you just don't like Warhammer enough then

Threads get closed for the slightest notion of being "rude". I simply can't comprehend subjects such as these not creating emotional responses and "hurt feelings". Stuff like this creates creates tensions between members throughout the board.

Byte wrote:Threads get closed for the slightest notion of being "rude". I simply can't comprehend subjects such as these not creating emotional responses and "hurt feelings". Stuff like this creates tensions between members throughout the board.

Having participated in one thread about vegetarianism a few weeks ago, I'd have to disagree with you. While I didn't express myself or my views, or my reasons very clearly at first, I didn't find that by the time the thread was off the most recent threads page that there was any tension between myself, or any other participants. In this particular case, there were several people getting a bit inflamed, but I think that everyone realizes that one small conversation over the internet with people you've never met is no reason to change your life drastically for the worse, or your views of these people.

i voted yes, but would preffer an "other." there should be an sub forum in off topic for religous/political reasons.

Nightwatch wrote:

Byte wrote:Threads get closed for the slightest notion of being "rude". I simply can't comprehend subjects such as these not creating emotional responses and "hurt feelings". Stuff like this creates tensions between members throughout the board.

Having participated in one thread about vegetarianism a few weeks ago, I'd have to disagree with you. While I didn't express myself or my views, or my reasons very clearly at first, I didn't find that by the time the thread was off the most recent threads page that there was any tension between myself, or any other participants. In this particular case, there were several people getting a bit inflamed, but I think that everyone realizes that one small conversation over the internet with people you've never met is no reason to change your life drastically for the worse, or your views of these people.

Obviously you didn't understand my post. I have seen a thread get closed for basically one member calling another a "rules lawyer" and "trying to be argumentative". Maybe the off topic forum has more leeway. If so this isn't fair to the rest of the forums. However, no where did I imply people lives were going to be affected drastically from any posts... give me a break dude...really?

Keep-Yes, because you should allow for people to govern themselves while in an open area. I imagine the burden on moderation is heavier in areas like this, and moderation could easily become subjective on topics like that.

Other than scribbles on public toilet walls this is the last form of Democracy we have, why ban it? And for those that are not interested in other people's thoughts on the topic, eh! Ignore the post. I for one am a HUGE poli-sci fan (enough to volunteer regularly in political campaigns) but I avoid striking up or looking for a philosophical discussion on here because that is not why I come to Dakka. I urge those in favor of banning politics and religion to follow suite, that way you ban it in your world while not infringing on the interests of others. Be your OWN moderator!

I voted no, for many of the reasons Manchu has noted.

Political discussions on Dakka aren't that bad. Dogma and sebster regularly post useful thoughts, and there are many other users who are worth reading. The fact that the forum isn't primarily a political forum helps to filter out a lot of the fanatics looking to argue.

Then you have the problem of politics overarching into other topics. Posts about the economy, guns, crime, differences between nations, recent events, animals, history, the military, and a dozen other things are liable to touch upon politics, and they either become swamped by people who have no other opportunity to say something or get locked down far too frequently.

Plus, what else are you going to read on the Off Topic forum? Another "what music do you like" thread? More "what do you think of the new not-in-any-way-politically-charged movie that's out" threads? More zombie apocalypse scenarios? There's only so much else to discuss.

I don't generally find religious discussions to be interesting; they seem to go around in circles quite a bit more than political discussions, and they seem to get people more riled up. Still, I probably wouldn't want to ban their discussion, I'm sure some people find them worthwhile.

It's not like it's particularly difficult to decide not to click on a thread when it looks like it will have political or religious connotations; and since that thread wouldn't exist if threads with political or religious connotations were prohibited, what are you losing by their presence? A second of time as you look for a thread you'd rather read?

I think that people should be polite and generally nice to each other (i.e. complying with Dakka's Rule #1), but I do not condone censorship of ideas and topics in the Off-Topic section, even if they are of a political or religious nature, or otherwise controversial. If religious and political discussions are to be banned from the Off-Topic section of Dakka, I would prefer to see the entire Off-Topic section eliminated from the board.

In the long run though, I am not hugely concerned by Off-Topic section of Dakka, it's more a matter of principle.

I praise Chinesus that no matter what happens to the Dakka Off-Topic section, we will always have the OT Zone.

Manchu wrote:(1) This is a wargaming site. Go somewhere else to talk about politics and religion.

I don't think anybody (or at least not many of them) were saying that the site has to be wargaming only.

The point being made was simply that when a particular topic is causing an inordinate number of problems, and that topic has nothing to do with the site's main purpose, is it worth the effort to police it when it could simply be removed?

Mods don't have the time to monitor OT religion/politics threads.

This is tied into my answer above. It's not about mods not having the time. It's about mods not being forced to waste an inordinate amount of time policing something that has nothing to do with why they spend time on this site in the first place, and why they chose to be moderators.

If it is the case that there needs to be someone devoted to OT in order to prevent a ban on discussions of politics and religion then I again volunteer to do so.

You don't see it as just a little bit silly that there would be a need, on a site that is ostensibly a wargaming site, to have a moderator on hand specifically to deal with religious and political wars in the OT forum?

Saying that the problem of mods being overworked in more "on point" sections of Dakka can only be solved by banning discussions of politics and religion is weak on its face.

It's also not what I said.

What I said was that more time in OT means less time elsewhere. There are other solutions than banning political and religious discussion. But banning such discussion is an easier solution than some others, particularly when you consider the number of problems these discussions cause.

There's never any middle ground in such debates. They always end in fire.

No place for it here...

There are people on this forum, who could start an arguement in an empty room.
If you ban religion and politics in the off topic section, they'll just move to another.

Insaniak, I wasn't responding directly to you and so I was not trying to misconstrue your points into strawmen. I just set up those three generalized arguments to get the discussion rolling in a more focused way. Now that you have responded directly to me, I'll riff off of your actual words.

insaniak wrote:The point being made was simply that when a particular topic is causing an inordinate number of problems, and that topic has nothing to do with the site's main purpose, is it worth the effort to police it when it could simply be removed?

As Orkeosaurus has pointed out, we are not talking about banning a particular topic (say, Dark Eldar greens or Deff Rolla quibbles) but rather an extremely broad swath of ideas that cuts into many potential particular topics that would not otherwise be unacceptable. At what point, for example, would a thread on veganism be locked? When someone mentions religious-based dietary proscriptions? When someone mentions the political ramifications of raising enough beef to meet consumer demand? Or would such a thread be locked as political on its face under this prospective ban? You seem to be alternately minimizing ("a particular topic") and maximizing ("mods wasting an inordinate amount of time," "when you consider the amount of problems these discussions cause") the scope of this issue to suit your argument. It is a large enough problem to require a ban and yet at the same time small enough so that a seemingly simple solution of a ban would work. I disagree with both claims--whether you mean to make them or not--for reasons that I have already outlined. Namely: from a regular user's perspective (that is, my own), political and religious threads do not pose such a major problem -and- trying to get rid of such threads, however they are defined, will likely be as much if not more work as is already required to police OT as it stands. It's not a slippery slope argument to comment that a ban on religious and political discussion would eventually lead to the closing of OT (which would be a disaster in my view) because there is no easy way to sort out the political/religious content from the rest in most serious discussion (a.k.a., thread that are not about your favorite music, etc).

It's not about mods not having the time. It's about mods not being forced to waste an inordinate amount of time policing something that has nothing to do with why they spend time on this site in the first place, and why they chose to be moderators.

In this light, I can understand and empathize with why you and perhaps other mods would find monitoring OT to be a waste of time. But there are plenty of users who stick around primarily for the comradeship of OT. To use myself as an example, I sometimes find that my interest in 40k (which no one can deny is really what this site is about) and wargaming more generally declines. But my acquaintanceship with other Dakka users combined with the space to speak about non-wargaming topics--including the most interesting if also most potentially troublesome ones--keeps me coming back even through these doldrums. And there are even a handful of regulars that you will almost never see outside of OT, where they quite often discuss politics and/or religion. So while you may find involvement in this part of the site to be wasteful that is certainly not the only sentiment. Which takes me to . . .

You don't see it as just a little bit silly that there would be a need, on a site that is ostensibly a wargaming site, to have a moderator on hand specifically to deal with religious and political wars in the OT forum?

No, I don't see it as silly at all. Actually, I see it as the obvious solution to religion/politics threads needing more attention. How could this be silly given there are people (a) who do not feel that this kind of work impinges upon their enjoyment of the site and (b) who, as I have described above, continue to spend time in part because of OT and its sometimes provocative discussions? To me, this suggestion epitomizes practicality although I realize that as a user I do not have all the pieces of the puzzle in front of me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There's never any middle ground in such debates. They always end in fire.

This is not at all my experience. To me, this seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy and--without pointing a finger at H.B.M.C. or any other user or mod--a rationalization for bad behavior.

I vote another section of the forum is made for political and religious discussions, if you dont want to be offended then dont go there.

40k itself has pretty strong Religious and Political themes, a lot of which are based in historical allegory. I think that discussion of those topics would go hand-in-hand with discussion of the game itself. YMDC gets every bit as ugly as OT, and I feel that that is worse because people are on YMDC to ask for help and often get trolled! I think more focus should be put on the offending users, not the topics themselves.

If there's not enough staff to police the OT forum why not appoint another moderator, then?

Oddly, part of what I like about Dakka is the relatively laid back moderatorship though. I don't know why I'm suggesting more of "the man."

Manchu wrote: It's not a slippery slope argument to comment that a ban on religious and political discussion would eventually lead to the closing of OT

I've come across a few forums over the years that actually did (and always had done) have a ban on such discussion in their OT sections. Can't say whether it ultimately caused more issues, as I've never been a big OT fan on any of the forums I've visited... but it's not an unheard of idea.



It's also possibly worth pointing out that for a great many years Dakka didn't actually have an OT board (Other than when a handful of posters highjacked the CCG forum for a while...) and most users didn't really notice its absence.

Intense faith can often lead to intense intolerance... tread carefully beneath the banner of angels...

I've never even went in to the OT forums, but if people are bickering in there it is fine by me, it would seem to be the place for it and it does not seem to impact the rest of the site... Why not just let them go nuts on each other in there as long as they stay in their area? In addition, closing that forum may cause people to pick those kinds of fights in normal threads impacting the rest of us, closing it could do more harm than good.

Either way though, it doesn't really bother me.

Political and religious topics should have their own forum so those that are genuinely interested in discussing such would have to click elsewhere than seeing them in the OT.

The Dakka mods have done an excellent job and imo this might make the work easier for 'em.

I nominate dogma as a mod for a political/religious section

Cane wrote:Political and religious topics should have their own forum so those that are genuinely interested in discussing such would have to click elsewhere than seeing them in the OT.

Why is "seeing them in the OT" such a big problem? We don't need another subforum. They can see them in the OT section, and if they're not interested, they simply don't click on the thread. It's just like not clicking on the section, except instead they just don't click on the thread.

Either or...

It matters not to me

Hordini wrote:

Cane wrote:Political and religious topics should have their own forum so those that are genuinely interested in discussing such would have to click elsewhere than seeing them in the OT.

Why is "seeing them in the OT" such a big problem? We don't need another subforum. They can see them in the OT section, and if they're not interested, they simply don't click on the thread. It's just like not clicking on the section, except instead they just don't click on the thread.

Politics and religion imo do warrant their own subforum and on most discussion boards that allow users to engage in those topics they do have such. A good chunk of P&R threads pop up in the OT forum and I wouldn't be surprised if those posts outnumbered a few subforums already present. It could also help mods funnel those threads and possibly help moderation. These topics also have a tendency to dominate the OT subforum which doesn't seem to be what was it was intended for.

Cane wrote:Political and religious topics should have their own forum so those that are genuinely interested in discussing such would have to click elsewhere than seeing them in the OT.

The Dakka mods have done an excellent job and imo this might make the work easier for 'em.

I nominate dogma as a mod for a political/religious section

Don't you think there'll be enough dogma in there allready,
without him

I agree with most of you that this is a place for Wargaming and the like. If you wanna debate about politics or religion I am sure that there are better places to vent!! I for one say leave this forum to Wargaming, I go here to escape reality and relax!!


Mike

There are forums for such discussion, this isn't one.

Why allow what inevitably will become a flame war...nobody screams til they're red in the face (or types for this matter) about how the latest Command and Conquer game sucked/was amazing.

I think that every single topic should be a valid form of discussion, and that the idea that politics and religion are somehow subjects that are too controversial is absurd.

Surely if a subject is considered important and/or controversial by people, its exactly what they should be talking about.

Regardless it is the internet, so all of this sort of discussion will end in pointless bickering, so really, why not let them talk about it.

Freedom of Speech should be allowed , but sensitive topic might bring it some bad taste.

Why not just put the person on ignore that is bothering you? That seems like a common old remedy to problems.

Zoring wrote:I think that every single topic should be a valid form of discussion, and that the idea that politics and religion are somehow subjects that are too controversial is absurd.

Surely if a subject is considered important and/or controversial by people, its exactly what they should be talking about.

Regardless it is the internet, so all of this sort of discussion will end in pointless bickering, so really, why not let them talk about it.

This

I would either get rid of it or make a specific sub-forum and leave it entirely unmoderated, with the understanding being that if you go there, you asked for it. It's unnecessary, taxing, and unpleasant work for the mods, having to play referee in a flaming-poo-flinging fight. It increases the likelihood that hard feelings and/or flamers/trolls will spill over into other threads.

In the religious/political debates I've seen in the OT forums on several sights, all my preconceived notions of how things would go down were spot on. No one goes into it expecting to change their mind. No one wants to, either. The only thing they can do is try to convince others who are just as staunchly biased as they are not that they are right, since that's so hard to do, but that everyone else is wrong. Flaming ensues and escalates.

If you want some intelligent debate on the matter, go to your local library/bookstore and pick up some philosophical/theological works on the subject. Want something more current or active? Plenty of other places specifically geared towards that, either with mods that have no other duties and are therefore quite strict or mods with extremely limited involvement - whichever you're looking for.

I'm still doubtful of the claim that banning political discussions would lighten the moderators' workload. Currently they need to intervene whenever a thread gets hostile; with the ban in place they'd not only need to continue doing that but also trawl through threads where there is no hostility and make sure that the thread hasn't become "political".

Manchu wrote:I can understand and empathize with why you and perhaps other mods would find monitoring OT to be a waste of time. But there are plenty of users who stick around primarily for the comradeship of OT. To use myself as an example, I sometimes find that my interest in 40k (which no one can deny is really what this site is about) and wargaming more generally declines. But my acquaintanceship with other Dakka users combined with the space to speak about non-wargaming topics--including the most interesting if also most potentially troublesome ones--keeps me coming back even through these doldrums. And there are even a handful of regulars that you will almost never see outside of OT, where they quite often discuss politics and/or religion. So while you may find involvement in this part of the site to be wasteful that is certainly not the only sentiment.

This. Also, has anyone considered that determining whether or not the religious or political content/theme of a given thread is suffient to warrant an instant lock could actually result in MORE work for the MODs? The focus should be on upholding Dakka Rule #1 - that would solve more problems than trying to eliminate specific topics. Consider how nebulous the meaning of the word 'politics' is! It's easy to determine that someone is being rude, not so easy to determine that someone is being too 'political'.

EDIT: Gah! Ninja'd by Orkeosaurus!

IMHO, a solution which could work would be to appoint dedicated OT MODs to lessen the workload for the regular MOD team - I would support Manchu as a potential candidate, and would humbly submit an offer of assistance myself. There are several other OT regulars who would do an excellent job.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm still doubtful of the claim that banning political discussions would lighten the moderators' workload. Currently they need to intervene whenever a thread gets hostile; with the ban in place they'd not only need to continue doing that but also trawl through threads where there is no hostility and make sure that the thread hasn't become "political".

This was my first thought upon seeing this thread, and one of the primary reasons that I voted to continue the permission of political and religious discussion.

Kill it with fire!

In terms of raw post count, off topic is #3. It would be ill-advised to close it.

I once opened a thread about Religion in OTH and I had to ask Frazzle two or three times to re-open it. Still, it was a very interesting discussion, at least as long as I followed it.
I'm not that interested in Politics but in my opinion banning the topic is NOT the right idea.

This is the Internet. People get upset or offended quite easily. But restricting the topics that can be talked about in an off-topic forum is not the right way to handle this.

Please don't do it Yak.

I try and steer clear of political and religious discussions, in the OT forum but have voted to keep them.

It is hard not to have a 'political' and therefore emotive view in most OT threads.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm still doubtful of the claim that banning political discussions would lighten the moderators' workload. Currently they need to intervene whenever a thread gets hostile; with the ban in place they'd not only need to continue doing that but also trawl through threads where there is no hostility and make sure that the thread hasn't become "political".

On the Mod front, frankly, that board is not modded heavily. There are less reports from there then other sections (YMDC...). having said that, most Mods tend to steer clear of that forum unless there is a report. KK, manny, reds8n, and I are the obvious exceptions.

I am more than happy for political and religious threads to be on Dakka.

For me the Off-Topic forum represents school break time or the works canteen, whilst not being the primary reason for the site it is no less important than any of the other forums. Banning certian areas of discussion will frustrate users and ultimately lead to them moving away from the site as they may feel like they are being treated like children. Even the most avid gamer has other interests and I feel that for Dakka to remain a well rounded forum members should be able to discuss whatever they wish as long as it is done in a muture manner.

However, I can appreciate that these types of discussion can get very heated and potentialy difficult to moderate effectively without offending. Perhaps a seperate sub-forum could be introduced, which allows the mods to ban specific users from entering that area should they not be able to contribute in a constructive manner?

I have to weigh in in favour of keeping poltical and religious discussions in OT.
Really, it's not as bad as many posters in this thread make it out to be, I find it to be a really interesting place to talk to a wide variety of people about these topics. On a board where you only discuss religion or politics, you tend to get clusters of viewpoints and dramatic polarisation. While a little bit of this goes on in OT, I found it really great that I knew some of the posters for a different reason than discussing politics, so I found it made me more willing to listen to them and engage.
I note that many of the people who want OT locked don't actually post regularly there. Do you read OT regularly but not post? Or are you speaking from a position of ignorance?
I feel for the mods who may feel that OT is not their business and who may be uncomfortable dealing with it. I'm sure however there would be no shortage of people willing to help out if it meant we could keep discussion open- Manchu has volunteered and I think he'd do a grand job, if you needed someone to cover this end of the timezone I could help out.
All of this said if the decision is to stop that sort of debate in OT I'll respect it, but dakka will get less traffic from me as a consequence I'd say.

Frazzled wrote:Let us all bask in the sweet image of Frazzled, running amok, one subdirectory at a time.

Who's the guy with the stick that is chasing you?

I say keep them in OT, or create sub-forum(s). If you don't like the subject matter of a thread, don't read it. If someone is being an idiot, ignore them or hit MOD Alert.

And I agree with a previous poster. Dakkadakka isn't a democracy and there is no freedom of speech. It's privately owned. Yakface can do what he likes, including kicking everyone off the board and making it a blog where he reports the "Best of... Space Hulk."

edit: Some of my view is that dakkadakka is not a place that I expect to have serious discussions about politics and religion. I might learn something new, might hear a different viewpoint, but I don't expect to change anyone's position. Also, how do you separate, in particular politics, from some topics? Is health care considered political? If you had a discussion about US Health care, I would expect the recent bills that have passed would be discussed. So, would a ban on politics lead to a ban on health care by default? Even sports can morph into a political discussion (i.e., "I think it's stupid that the NFL tests for marijuana. It shouldn't be illegal...."

dietrich wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Let us all bask in the sweet image of Frazzled, running amok, one subdirectory at a time.

Who's the guy with the stick that is chasing you?

Huh?

I always saw that as MOD Fraz chasing MOD Iorek...

No Lorek doesn't move that fast...ever. After a few years hitting the sterno, your movements take on a more shambly zombiesque quality to them.

I voted NO.

I used to be one of the biggest partakers in the religious discussions. Then I realized that nothing was being done about the way certain posters were being insulting towards religious people. There was a time when(I thought) you couldn't call someone stupid or slowed in the off topic. Then that seemed to change about 6 months ago. Now it seems it's ok to call people of faith stupid or slowed without consequence.

If the forum can't be moderated I say close it down.

GG

Lets not dumb down Dakka by ignoring controversial issues. Let me give a few reasons why.

Reasons to allow religious and political discourse to continue.

1. Statistical success.
Despite the frequent smartalecs posting 'IBL' comments appearing on politics and religion threads the vast majority are never locked. Most settle into a long informative discussion ending peacably.

2. Don't let the trolls win.
IBL comments is sourced from the fallacy that you cannot hold a religious or political discussion without overbearing emotional burdens. People who believe that should speak for themselves, not for others who show greater maturity.
Most IBL comments disappear by page two of a religion thread because they are ignored by level thinking individuals who are more interested in picking holes in the posts of political or religious opponents, while this can start heated most who stay for the discussions actually calm down once they get involved in a debate where poeple on both sides are trying to speak on the issues without anger.

3. Religious and political discussions tend to self Mod.
We know a troll when we see one and rebuff or ignore posts purely intended to denegrate a thread. New posts starting from a hostile viewpoint get a far better reception than most think. I have been trolled a few times but normally agree to disagree in the end. It is an exercise in tolerance.

4. Dakka is a good place to discuss controversial topics.
Because of the nature of the internet there are few places you can go and discuss religion and politics without meeting way too many trolls, and specific religion/politics forums are not recommended, they have more trolls not less. Because Dakka is primarily not a politics and religion site those who come to the threads normally have something interesting to say. Being here for gaming and staying for the religious or polirtical discourse normally gives you access to a better cross section of opinion than an alt relgion website where people with a particular bee in their bonnet specifically congregate to troll.

5. Wargamers are generally smart.
Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers. Miniatures gamer forums have a very high IQ average, this might not account for everyone, it is the internets after all but you might be suprised to find just how wide the knowledge base is here. Daak is a good place to go to debate with someone who can hold a heady conversation.

6. Dakka open OT policy breaks down borders.
As opposed to just breaking down as ther naysayers predict. Meeting rationally minded people with different worldviews and disagreeing civilly with them is very refreshing. It does not work all the time, but Dakka holds up far better than many think in this regards. offline people tend to congragate with their own kind, here on Dakka you meet people of widely different viewpoints and get the chance to learn what they think.
While some don't like to listen a large number of people on the religion and politics threads do. While changing someones opinion is an unrealistic goal changing ones perception of others is a realistic goal of frank discussion. a number of times theists and atheists arrive at a thread assuming something of the opposing sides opinions and leave with a better understanding of those they don't agree with. This doesn't change minds but it does change hearts, most people fear alternate worldviews out of ignorance, once you understand what the other guy thinks, as opposed to what you thought he thinks we being to see each other as rational people with alternate worldviews instead of fools or threats.

Reasons why censoring religious and political discourse hurts Dakka.

1. It's censorship!
Nuff said.

2. Mods will be playing whack-a-mole for years to come with borderline political threads.
I have seen this alot. Normally over the boundary of when politics becomes history, also military technology threads also are too close to politics. On some sites the Mods end up getting anal over this and you get lots of arguments over whether threads were political.

3. Religion and philosophy touch sides too.
Statistically this will be less of a problem because while new weapons etc will be frequent thread topics philosophy doesn't turn up as often. But it does and when it does and religion is banned you can have problems. The trouble is philosophical discussions can be very nebulous let me give you an example. I remember a thread on a no politics and no religion website where religion was being bashed under the moniker of 'atheism equals science', as science is not religion and science is not banned therefore atheism can be discussed. I waited until a couple of mods had posted on the thread doing nothing to stop the bash before pointing out, technically in violation of forum rules, that as atheism was one side of a religious debate the forum was being unfair to not allow fair response. The Mods got the message after that.
You see due to the blurred lines of philosophy people with an axe to grind can try to bash different religions on non-religious threads by relabeling their comments as something else. as philosophy is ultimately the art of relabelling and categorising ideas this can result in a quagmire for boundary definitions.

4. Don't throw away what we have achieved.
Dakka is close to getting a reputation as somewhere where you can have a controversial discussion with minimal trolling, a place where you can actually get the opposing view and question it ratioanlly before the thread is closed by a Mod or denegrates into a trollfest. We are winning against the internet meme that says you cannot prevail against the low standards expected of internet communities.
There are plenty of forums where this trend occurs, why wreck one where we are holding ground?

Why not split religion into it's own sub-forum.

Have OT and then have a sub of OT for P/R?

It sounds convoluted but that is one of the things I like about Warseer. 40k and Fantasy have their own sections so I can go into News and Rumors for 40k and not have to scroll down through a list of Fantasy or rumors concerning various mini manufacturers/foam producers.

I know Warseer gets lots of complaints but it's only because asshats post in the wrong thread multiple times and get banned and then come here and whine about it. You'd think posting a topic about Vampire Counts in the news and rumors thread in 40k would make most people pause before hitting submit and ask "does this really belong in 40k N&R?"

So I say split the OT up a little more. A section for P/R, a section for music discussion, and a section for discussing anything not P/R or music or whatever.

It keeps Warseer on track and neat (except for the occasional troll who purposely posts in wrong threads to rile people up).

IMO, Dakka has plenty enough forums. Do we really need forums for every little thing?

And if we're adding forums for stuff that we're generally interested in, how about adding one for posting pictures of pretty girls and fast cars? I'd far rather see the hot girl of the day, than another stupid thread about religion.

I'd actually be against further subforums actually. I'd rather keep the P&R in there than separate it, although I take issue with most R forums as attacks (most political ones are too, but they don't fall under Frazzled You Don't Feth with EEOC parties! Rule of Life).

JohnHwangDD wrote:And if we're adding forums for stuff that we're generally interested in, how about adding one for posting pictures of pretty girls and fast cars? I'd far rather see the hot girl of the day, than another stupid thread about religion.

You need to send Yak some cashola to access those......

Orlanth wrote:
5. Wargamers are generally smart....
1. It's censorship!
Nuff said.

I disagree, I think gamers are usually introverted social cripples, and generally, controversial topics of any stripe that are OT are a bad thing, the more polarized and controversial, the worse. Anonymity permits people to act in a manner in a forum which would be rare or in incredibly bad taste in public.

I don't even like the idea of an OT forum very much in the first place.

The internet is filled with places to go for that.

I voted no, get rid of them all, lock em down. Even just a few are bad, no good comes of it.

Augustus wrote:

I disagree, I think gamers are usually introverted social cripples...

Stringing three words like that together can generally offset any person, not matter the context.

I would have to disagree with your prognosis that gamers are "introverted social cripples." Any person can have a particularly sensitive topic they would not like to speak about or enrages them or like politics and religion have invited us to do in the OT forum, rant and make snide remarks with their peers who disagree with them.

Healty discussion is good. We all agree on that. Red-faced, shoe slamming on podium ranting is not a place in this forum to which we are guests. People who are closed minded and wish to cause trouble are not welcome here, and if closing off debate ensures that, then so be it.

But before I agree to cease and desist with all forms of political and religious debate, let's have an idea created where we can have moderators post the topic of debate. Have members PM mods so they can start the debate and make said debate more closely scrutinized or at the very least make it look like it will be closely monitered. It is the same system with polls that are created in this forum when someone wants a poll conducted.

Hopefully filtering through the moderators could make debate on p/r more palpable.

Introverted social cripples?

I don't think augustus has met the right gamers. LOL

GG

Orlanth makes his points more eloquently than I have managed to and I hope people will give them some serious scrutiny. So far, the major arguments offered by users favoring a prospective ban are "I don't like those threads," "they are nothing but trouble," and "there are other fora on the internet." IMO, these don't hold up well against the points that Orlanth just made.

cause people like me don't read them unless we want to (which is never) I can't understand why you would ban them.

If people don't like them, don't click on them, let alone read and post on them.

lets all be grown ups.

I actually get alot of political news from the OT section. I also think people should be allowed to speak about religion and politics as long as they can keep composure. I think people that get all bent out of shape, or get to insulting when speaking about should be punished themselves. Not punishing everyone else.

Why take them off? We're all grown ups, or at least playing in the big boy park....

I voted to keep them as viable topics

Whats the point of having an OT forum on dakka if it doesnt involve an anything goes concept?

It worked well for the OT forums in the past. Debates always get heated. So what?

If you dont want it part of Dakka, Yakface. Its understandable, but why go through the effort in creating it in the first place?

OT forums outside of dakka but closely associated with dakka has worked for over a decade and will continue to function. For a long time it was arguably the main reason why Dakka continued to exist when Russ's interest in this site waned. You're welcome.

If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

However, I believe that off topic forum should be open for healthy criticism of the hobby. For example, there is plenty of room to argue the images and depictions of death, destruction, apocalyptic future, satanism, and well slaanesh haha are not appropriate for individuals, groups, classes or what have you. (This is not my opinion but an example of an opinion someone may come to Dakka to sound off about)

As Captain Hook would say,

"Bad form, Bad form indeed."

Let's keep on topic, good gaming and painting please.

Deuce11 wrote:If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

This comment makes me happy. I like it when people who disagree with me say silly things.

Da Boss wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:If you choose Dakka as your medium for such discussions you have already discredited yourself and so it should not matter whether or not Dakka permits it because no one should listen/read or respond.

This comment makes me happy. I like it when people who disagree with me say silly things.

It was certainly more than a little malicious, and makes you wonder why he's posting here himself.

As long as they stay in the off-topic forum, they should be around. There's no point in having so many diverse people here and not sharing opinions and beliefs. We'll never learn anything, never grow, never be better, and will be destined to repeat the terrible errors of the past. But, those things should stay in that forum. I don't want my tactics/YMDC/News & Rumors filled with political/religious views. Everything has its place.

I'd just like to point out that (as of my writing) the front page of the Off Topic section has a nine page thread about Richard Dawkins trying to arrest the Pope for covering cases of child molestation, a four page thread about the American civil war and slavery, a three page thread about elections in the UK, and a three page thread about military history. None of these have been locked. Of the three threads that are locked, one was cross-forum drama, one was a political thread necromancy'd, and one was a religious troll thread that was immediately recognized as being a troll thread by everyone, and promptly locked.

On the second page of the thread there is one political discussion locked because of the conflict it caused, and a political thread locked because it was both trollish and was duplicated by a better written thread. There are also three non-political/religious threads locked, one vague philosophical thread locked, one political thread locked for necromancy, and one spam thread locked. Threads that have gone on for more than one page and haven't been locked include a thread about American healthcare reform, a thread about a video showing civilian casualties being killed in Iraq (which was the counterpart to the locked thread mentioned earlier), a thread about the federal deficit and the state of the economy in the United States, a thread on the prison and criminal justice systems, and a thread about Westboro Baptist protesting the funerals of dead soldiers because of their opposition to homosexuality.

While a lot of people are saying "these things never work out!", or "it's just a recipe for disaster!", how many are basing their opinions on actual experience with the Off Topic forum? I'm consistently impressed by the level of thought that goes into many of the posts there.

Personally I dislike discussing Politics and Religion in general. That said I don't think that they should be outlawed. I feel that the OT forum is the place these should be and hopefully someone would have the decency to not post in a thread that they are not interested in, and/or that they have nothing to add to.
They are topics that to some are worth the discussion. Often times I see people bring issues like these up among their peers to both get to know them better but to also better understand their views.
Its unfortunate that some find the need to be hateful to others in response to said subjects, but I think there is still a place for those threads if people are both willing to post them and others are willing to respond to them.

Cheers,
~Volkan

DD is a community.

Providing a forum for the community to discuss things outside the umbrella reason they are here for is a reasonable thing to do. Given the diverse views and collisions that occur over the umbrella reason we are all here, it is to be expected that the community will have widely diverse views when it comes to matters of religion and politics.

What needs reiteration is Rule #1. If that is maintained and the seriousness of suspensions and perma-bans are driven home, then we should have fewer problems in the OT.

I have certainly enjoyed real debate over matters of theology and political view, I have also witnessed real arse-hats in operation in the OT and that needs a sound kicking.

I have one poster on ignore on the entirety of dakka, due to his endless hateful incitement, permitted on the OT for what reason I cannot fathom. Those are the types of people who need permanent takedown.

Orlanth wrote:Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers.

As flattering as that is where did you pull it from?

We should allow the political and religious conversations to go on.

Partly because it would really screw up any discussion of current events in the OT forum. Mostly because the grey area this creates is way too large.

How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

Augustus wrote:How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

Banning political and religious discussion amounts to this, IMO. And, how about we don't?

Augustus wrote:How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

How about you just don't visit it? Problem solved, for you at least.

Me? I don't see the point in a video-games discussion section, so I don't hang out there. I just figure enough people use it to warrant it's continued existence.

Yak, don't get any ideas about the VG section, either. I use it.

Da Boss wrote:This comment makes me happy. I like it when people who disagree with me say silly things.

Thank you Boss. I needed a new quote for my Sig anyway.

Manchu wrote:

Augustus wrote:How about we just kill the OT forum altogether?

Banning political and religious discussion amounts to this, IMO. And, how about we don't?

The time for the knife to remove this cancer has passed,..

Fetch the torch!

So those in opposition to OT are the true source of flaming . . . as expected.

whatwhat wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers.

As flattering as that is where did you pull it from?

Did you know that 73.4% of all statistics are made up?
Well, now you know...

Well, I think that politics atleast is a subject which is interesting to discuss. However, some people may take it a bit too far sometimes, but everyone has the right to believe in what they think is right, even Nazists and communists have a right to have their opinions.

But I don't think it should be allowed to write something that's in any way rascism or such, no matter to whom it's directed.

Religion too is an interesting topic, and yet again everyone have the right to believe in their own religion. But again, religions may clash pretty hard against another since of different views of morale and such, and often tend to get heated when two people who strongly believes in two different religions are arguing about something. Just remember that in religon, there's nothing right or wrong.

Myself I'm a proud Odinistic, Patriot-Democratic Skinhead. Although I never want people to mix up my religion, political view and lifestyle as that may look pretty bad (Just look at the american neo-nazi boneheads that call themselves odinists, whom are extremely patriotic and are.. something that's supposed to look like Skinheads. On first view people tend to stereotype me as one of those >.< )

I like to discuss both Politics and Religion, but once again, I'm not the one to decide wether Dakka is the right place or not.

If you don't want to censor people (and that's not always a bad thing, despite it's connotations), I would say set up an unmoderated forum, that people can post to at their own risk. Then, it's up to the members to be adults, and not the mods to be babysitters...

-Dave

I dont think religious discussions should be aloud , im not saying you cant belive in god or anying thing like that but it does up set people , if some one says some thing offensive or a word that up sets you just ignore them , and dont go ranting about how you cant speak words like jesus , i think people sould just try to get along on dakka , arrguments about the games is still okay ... i think.

Any words can be offensive... I say let 'er rip!

I agree; it should be out! People have deep values and no discussion will change their mind. Maybe light comments on topic.
I was working at a game co. We had a Priest call. [ I thought I was going to get torn up]
He is in favor of 40K. [Even if the good guys have mohawks and skulls] He said:" God has rules and so does the game." He went on about how the players were doing much better in school.
That is the deepest we should go in the forums.

While I'm all for it, most threads are quickly locked because of trolls and flaming

so I voted them off

If any of people who are voting for religious and political discussion to be banned actually READ the OT forum, they would know that there is currently a 5 page thread on religion which is totally free from flaming.*

Seriously, I have never seen any of you post in the OT forum - what's your problem?





*I put that down to an absence of The ShumaGorath Show.

Butthurt zealot is butthurt. I say no topic is too sacred for off topic. Let the inquisition commence. Goody Proctor is a witch!

Perhaps a seperate forum specifically for it? That way those who want it can find it, and those who don't can avoid it?

I don't care either way. As long as it stays in its appropriate place I have no problem with it, if the admins deem it needs to be banned, it wont hurt my feelings either. I stay away from such parts because it ruins forums for me. I'm here to get and give advice, sell some paint jobs perhaps and talk about how much heretic arse is gonna get kicked when the Lion wakes up, not discuss the current state of affairs.

No, unless it is about Politics and Religion in the Fluff of the games themselves.

I enjoy conversing about Religion.

It allows everyone's inner angry marine come out and say hi

No. and personally I see no value for an "off topic" discussion forum. There's plenty of open space on sites like Fark to fight over silly stuff.

The one problem I see with the off topic forum us that it may change a person' neutral feelings that had to negative feelings because they don't agree with that person's religious or political beliefs and use that to critisize them in other forums.

Off topic means off topic. If people don't like it...don't censure it...just don't read it.

I don't care either way. OT isn't a place I visit much. I only posted my opinion because I am trying to bump my post count over 100 before the end of the day.

Get rid of religious and political discussion it's boring, has too much flaming and there's too much of it.

I dont think its appropriate or relative. Its just a outlet for aggravation.

Last I checked this is a gaming forum site...

There are HUNDREDS of forums out there dedicated to political and/or religion discussions... Go there.

My thoughts too
It is often just an excuse for aggressive and abusive proselytising.

I guess if so many people get so upset, there could be an "strictly for the non-pussies" sub-category of off-topic threads, so the off-topic one can stay a safe haven for quiche recipies and such, instead of crazy debates and inflamed opinionated views to be tossed around. I know where I would spend my time. Gnolls love quiche! I guess the title could be less loaded language, just to be nice... something like "off-topic: non-political/non-religious" and "off-topic: anything goes"

Albatross seems to have hit the nail on the head that most of the people calling for it to be abolished don't even post in the OT board to begin with.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Wargamers are the second highest IQ group by hobby or social setting after astronomers.

As flattering as that is where did you pull it from?

Did you know that 73.4% of all statistics are made up?
Well, now you know...

omfg that pie chart it hilarious.

Anyways, Back on topic: I really didn't know what to think but this but I guess it's an old thread and after reading most of it I do think it should stay. I blame Manchu, he has superpowers of reasonabilty or something.

absolutely allow it and let the mods sort them out lol

I haven't seen much problems with the Political arguments so far, and I enjoy reading them, its a convenient way to keep up with current events.

As for Religion, the only problem I have with them is that it always has to be Atheist vs Christian. Because I am neither, I take little interest in the two flaming each other. But I think Dakka is more civilized than most places on the internet on the subject, so if they want to argue, this would actually be a good place to do it.

I come here to get away from all that crap. That being said I dont care if its on here, I just dont look at it.

Bringing elements of the real world into a hobby based site is a bad idea in my opinion. Topics of these types generally end up decending into arguments, no matter what their original intentions; though more so with the later. The ethos about don't discuss relegion in day to day life really should be applied here too, as well, though in real life it may be that those discussing it aren't likely to start a fight over it, with the number of people who can acess a discussion and give their own views on the web, its doubtless that without the lack of restrictions we face in the real world, that the online variants doubtlessly being steered towards topics of the pessimistic nature no matter what. So yeah, many other forums block them for good reason, and we see it happen here all the time no matter how much people try and prevent it, so it may be best for people to take these issues to other forums rather than getting riled up here.

Civil wars have started over these, so it doesn't take much for an argument to start from one either.¬¬

I put that down to an absence of The ShumaGorath Show.

Kinda miss him actually :(

Ontopic: where do you draw the line though, there have been some fairly intense debates over subjects like Wars/crime/various emotional media articles from what I recall.
Do these also get banned?

I'd echo what others have said, if the topic seems inflammatory to you, just avoid it.

Also to the OT guys saying that many who have posted in this thread dont contribute to the OT forum so why do they care: There is a difference between not posting there and not reading it at all. Many people do read the topics, just because they dont post dosent mean their opinion is less valid. Your view comes across as a little "its my street, leave it be". Others are entitled to walk down that street too.

However they can and probably should

if the topic seems inflammatory to you, just avoid it

Well,I just avoid them both since I just find them boring.

I rather just read a funny off-topic tread.

I'm happy with things as they are. Don't want another off-topic forum. If people get carried away then a thread is closed, fair enough. I'm also on a Doctor Who forum and the off topic political and real events section has some of the best debate on the entire site.

I am am moderator on a different forum that has had simmilar issues in the past.

We decided as a moderation group that, Yes, These type of discussions should be allowed and people should have a place to discuss such things.

We allow anything to be discussed as long as it is not racist, blatantly sexist, or personally derogatory. We have very very strong policy on the last one. Personal attacks are not tolerated at all.

What we ended up with was good, heated and at times passionate discussions that cosisted mostly of : I don't agree with you and this is why... Rather than: That bob guy is an idiot because he thinks this...

just my 2c, that forum also comes with a huge disclaimer stating that some conetent may be offensive.... etc etc.

oopps, i voted wrong keep that stuff out of here and save it for the news blogs.To many war vets,hippies,Etc.for that type discussion.

col. krazy kenny wrote:oopps, i voted wrong keep that stuff out of here and save it for the news blogs.To many war vets,hippies,Etc.for that type discussion.

You make a very valid point!. I get the full brunt of this any time I mention Nam around my Dad lol

I never read them so i don't care either way.

I know it is off-topic but DakkaDakka is based foremost around wargaming and not politics and religion. If you want to discuss that stuff, open up some other forum or something

I didnt know about that...

Fun thing about forums, we choose to be here. Don't censor!
Even though I only frequent the on topic stuff

I would say yes if I thought it were possible to keep it an inteligent, civil, and open minded discussion. However this is the internet.

This is a wargaming forum. Without Politics or Religon there would be no war, so I think they are useful.

snurl wrote:This is a wargaming forum. Without Politics or Religon there would be no war, so I think they are useful.

Certain topics are almost guaranteed to start dakka flame wars and have no relation to game wars.

Abortion is one such topic as an example.
Party politicking in general.
OMG! Immigrants are gonna eat my babies! and other scare stories.

The do nothing but wind each other up, waste the mods' time sorting things out and are a waste of server space.

No.

Nothing productive comes out. The majority of such "discussion" is an excuse for trolling, baiting and flaming.

I would be curious to know how many political threads ever just end naturally or fizzle off the first page of OT?

I would bet that that the vast majority have to be locked by mods. Proof that they have no buisness here and are a waste of bandwidth...

Souldnt we learn how to accept others even if something sounds dumb for us? I thought I learnt that in eith grade.....I dont really care but I think it should stay, if a guy doesnt like Jews, Muslims, Christians, Pink people, Black, he has a problem. If he disses someone beacuse of their dfferances then he should be reported. Though im sure we have quite smart people here in this problem shouldnt happen quite often.

I am not here to read off-topic, so I don't care.

Anyway, I think that people need to be somewhat responsible, friendly and mature about this kind of subject.

Discussion of beleif in the real world can result in violent discussion and should be banned

I believe that it should be allowed to a point. No Islams and Christians are idiots are any of that like. With poitics that is a diffrent story. Not all countrys have freedom of speech so you have to be careful.

I answered the poll "no they should not". Sadly on firums people are far to quick to say something offensive and stir up far more arguement. Things do not tend to get debated as sensibly as they should and people are far too happy to cast very flippent remarks about things. Polotics and religion are far too heated subject matter for people to actually get reasonably and fairly debate in the real world with out things getting out of hand, let alone on an internet forum

darefsky wrote:I come here to get away from all that crap. That being said I dont care if its on here, I just dont look at it.

That's my stance exactly. If I ran Dakka, I wouldn't even have an Offtopic forum at all. I'd simply instruct my moderators to lock any non-wargaming threads, and that's it.

On the other hand, if you permit an Offtopic forum, I could care less what goes on in there specifically, so long as no rules are being broken. Politics and Religion threads are by definition offtopic, and if you have an offtopic foum, not sure why you'd want to specifically single those things out as verboten. All or none, I say.

Generally speaking I do not read or participate in the Offtopic forum.

Because Religon and Politics tend to always end up in flame war.

yakface wrote:
The off-topic forum on Dakka is provided as a place for people to have polite discussions about non-miniature wargaming topics, and currently topics of any nature can be posted there. However, political and religious discussions tend to have a way to make people react very defensively and negatively towards any viewpoint that isn't shared by themselves and that often results in threads that have to be locked or edited by our moderators (which is work for them).

Would you prefer if Dakka's off-topic forum rules forbade political and/or religious discussions? Or do you think that their inclusion provides a healthy outlet for sentiments that would otherwise creep into other forum threads on the site?

Those issues creep into other forum threads anyway thanks to certain individuals, often forcing the MODS to work harder than they should need to. And in the Off-Topic area where they are supposed to reside they get out of hand nearly 100% of the time, again forcing the MODS to work harder than they should need to. And by then, the damage is done. And the cycle repeats ad nauseum. People as a whole don't improve, that's why we need police and forums need MODS.

If you really want to keep the forum as "clean" as possible of the kind of extremism, intolerance and just plain rudeness that eats up 80% or more of the time spent moderating it, why not simply forbid political & religious topics from the forum altogether regardless of the outcome of this poll? You are under no obligation to provide such services nor are you obligated to provide a democracy on whether or not it stays here. This isn't something of great consequence to people's personal freedom, it's a game forum, your game forum, and you can run it as you see fit as is best for everyone. Thanks!

No my reason is too many people take too much too literal and too serious and others dont know where to draw the line lets leave this for a different site and keep the discussions based around models, modeling and gaming.

This just ends badly just going to say too many people have such little idea about other religions and other countries politics and way of life so that just ends badly.

My two cents.

No, it dont have any place on a wargaming site

It seems like the place to post those topics if anywhere, but I could see how people could be hurt by wats on the blog. I think it will eventually be blocked but until then it will just be a thing of controversy... For me though I couldn't care less wat happens to it

If people don't like those topics then don't post. I do not see why they should be removed.

I don't come on Dakka to make political/religious arguments, and I have been on forums that have banned such topics because it inflames emotions and often degenerates into very aggressive and hateful interactions between members who originally joined the community to discuss something they love. I don't do it myself, but if others can engage in such topics whilst respecting their peers and their opposite views, then by all means, feel free.
But far too often, John Gabriel's Greater Internet Douchebag Theory applies: normal person + audience + anonymity = total douchebag. Youtube proves this far too often.

Talk is good.Even When heated.

At best it's truly fascinating and fun, at worst well... if you don't like it, don't click the thread? I guess.

Ive been warned in the off topic forum by MODs for getting a little out of hand, so i dont go there anymore; but i think its a great place for these types of discussions. We need to have real talks about Religion and politics because both of these issues can lead to very dead people, or other serious events impacting our lives. At least in a forum like this, there is a MOD who can help keep things from getting out of hand. When its just me outside planned parenthood and surrounded by protestors, things escalate quick.

I think ultimately it's down to the mods. If the threads generate more work than simply closing them as soon as they start then why not? Off-topic doesn't really contribute to the rest of the forum.

Yes, an off topic forum is an off topic forum. Civil discussions are the foundation to understanding other people, and it's a sad fact that some people can't be civil in these discussions. It sure sounds like those threads has to be moderated more. All persons involved should probably benefit from an zero-tolerance policy towards bad/rude behavior. And instead of just locking the thread, suspend those who can't behave themselves, for some time (or permanently for repeated offences)!

I couldnt care less, tbh. I do not and will not ever visit that forum becasue I do not care about Off topic threads. I come here for On-topic, that is, wargaming.

Both are touchy subjects. A separate section if the admins would agree to it

I don't really care.

I find these topics interesting. I think forums can be a healthy place for people to express themselves on these topics. I think that so long as people continue to abide by the general rules of dakka, there should be no prohibition against these kinds of threads.

Art imitates life. We cannot turn away from the heated debate, so long as it is intelligent not a stupid my Dad is better than your Dad level argument (it puts the orphans on edge).

It won't affect me - due to people behaving so poorly, so often, in the off-topic parts of various other boards I've been on I don't even look at them. On principle I'm very against political and religious discussions on themed boards, but people will blow up over things on or off topic anyway.

We already have the Scrub vs Powergamer arguments, which are pretty much the same thing.

Formed adults rarely if ever change their mind. You will go through your adult life with less than a handful of chances to see a true sea change in a person. The sum bulk of most of these 'discussions' are alternating sequences of mental masturbation and mounting of high horses.

With that said censorship is bad, so by default none is needed here.

If people keep it civil and respect others' views, I don't see why not.

My general opinion on both is F@k those liars and delusional idiots.