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(April 24) -- A homeless man who was stabbed while saving a woman from a knife-wielding attacker lay dying in a pool of his own blood for more than an hour while several New Yorkers walked past without calling for help.

Surveillance video obtained by the New York Post shows that some passers-by paused to gawk at Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax early Sunday morning and yet kept on walking.

One man came out of a nearby building and took a cellphone photo of the victim before leaving. Another leaned over and vigorously shook the dead man before walking away. But most people never stopped.

Firefighters arrived more than an hour and 20 minutes after Tale-Yax collapsed. By that time, the 31-year-old was dead.

"They needed to help and call the police. I don't get it," resident Ramon Bellasco, 46, told the Post.

The incident happened at 7:21 a.m. almost a week ago at 88 Road and 144th Street in the borough of Queens, but police didn't have a clear idea of what happened until recently.

Tale-Yax is seen on the grainy video approaching a man who was threatening a woman with a knife. The man turned and stabbed Tale-Yax but most of the action is out of the security camera's field of vision. Both the stabber and the woman then fled in different directions and Tale-Yax stumbled a few paces before collapsing face-down on the sidewalk.

Within a minute or so, the first of a long series of people begins walking by Tale-Yax without going to his aid.

Police told the Post they received four 911 calls at around the time of the attack reporting a woman screaming, but found nothing. They said they received no other 911 calls.

The incident is reminiscent of the rape and murder of Kitty Genovese, also in Queens, in 1964. In that case, dozens of people witnessed some or all of the attack and yet no one did anything to stop it.

No arrests have been made in the latest slaying, and police have been unable to identify the woman Tale-Yax was trying to help.

Jesus H that's just depressed the gak out of me.

MGS said it, mate.

Unbelievable. Wish I had been there.

I have been to NYC a number of times...this does not surprise me, as much as I am a born and bred city boy, I can't stand most of the residents...

most big cities are like this...

it's too much of a burden to help another, it seems...

and people think war will end this world...


what a nice man. may he rest in piece, he will receive his retribution wherever he is.

What the hell is wrong with these people? Does life hold that little value to them?

IF they aren't medically trained, the least they could do is call someone who is.

They should arrest all those people. Oh, and the woman needs a punch to the head, some one saves your fething life and you run away? What a bitch.

As a former "homeless man" myself, I can say from experience that nobody wants to go out of their way to care about you AT ALL. Moreso in dense populated areas, where you can just walk on and assume it's the next person's problem. I saw a guy get beat down on a subway train with about 90 people on it when I was in NYC and nobody near him did anything. I was at the far end of the train and there wasn't anything I could do but yell because of so many people in the way pretending not to notice. Not right. Not right at all. Tack on 'homeless scumbag' and people are doubly prone to ignore your plight for fear that you might be asking them for change. "No ma'am, I asked you for the TIME, not a DIME"... oh well... walk away.

Before I lived in 'The City' (as the locals so proudly refer to it) I had never seen so much paranoia in a clumped population. 90 people on a subway car all riding in absolute silence because they are too scared that the guy next to them might be nuts or a terrorist or the crazy old alzheimers lady with 3 guns in her purse just in case a person of color stands next to her, and so on.

I'm not surprised at all. What I can say, to anyone who cares, is that a lot of the homeless refuse of society are some of the best people I have ever known and truly care about other people, and they deserve respect for toughing it out in their difficult lives, not scorn for being 'losers' by society's standards. I know. I've been there.

Yea, I know a few homeless people. And they all choose to remain like that because their fed up with society.

I was a homeless worker and can appreciate what happened here. homeless will often help someone when others wont, they see what is on the street and also have no pretention or for that matter not much to lose.

The city owes him a decent burial.

Something else the city needs to do.

Find out who that woman is and the man who took pictures. I can forgive those who walked by, they wont be able to tell the difference between a dying man and a man out of his tree on booze and the latter is rather dangerous to approach. The questions that need answering are, was he calling out for help and was there a blood pool. If he wasnt then most reactions are acceptible. Some homeless are so far gone that homeless workers think twice about approaching them, so we cannot really critique passers by.

As for the man who took the photos and shook him up, well just maybe he thought he had good reason, a drunk collapsed outside his shop would piss a lot of people off, but maybe he was ghoulish, we don't know. But he does need some explaining to do.

As for the woman who called for help then ran away. Chances are the guy with a knife to her is someone she knew, a genuine victim of a random mugging would have gone to the police. She sounds to me like the sort of woman who wants help with her boyfriend who is rough with her, then turns on a sixpence when you approach and offer aid to what looks like a victim. Or even turn on you when you try and step in. I have met this sort too many times and learned to walk away, it's a chance you take when you step forward when you see or hear a woman in distress. Either way she should at least have called the police when she ran away at a minimum, panic is an immeidate but not long term excuse.

I hope the press finds her. I hate gutter press but sometimes they can do a public service. Her name deserves to be mud and her face deserves to be recognised worldwide via the internet. People will stare at her in the street and point her out and whisper as she passes, maybe after a few months of that she might be sorry, if at first only for herself. At least it might act as an object lesson for selfish women everywhere who play with fire and expect people around them to step in and pay the price.

Read the first line of that article again for your blood question.

I didn't think I needed to educate people here in the need to be careful with reading the press or tell you it isn't the same as you see in the cop TV shows or the movies..

Soladrin wrote:Read the first line of that article again for your blood question.

A poetic description that says nothing. If the pool was under him it might not have been visible, with a stab wound through a shirt or in the back this is not unlikely, the shirt would have been soaked and the blood will have leaked down. You CAN receive nasty wounds and have people not notice, it is a big problem with homeless who are stabbed to death by sickos in their sleep. Sometimes you cannot tell between a homeless who has been stabbed and dying and one who is blotto on drugs and a real mess of his own accord.

How does, "in a pool of his own blood" look other then what it says there...?

Yep just seen the video, and read some press reports.

One press report describes people walking past Tale-Yax in his 'death throes', the victim was lying still.

The pool of blood was under him and not visible, is he was alive when passers by approached him he would be indistinguishable from someone who had too much.

The man who shook the body looked like he wanted to help wake him up saw the blood and likely noticed he was dead and walked away. That is not unreasonable if he feared it might be a gangland killing. He didnt go through the victims pockets. He has nothing to be ashamed about, it looks very much like he was trying to help.

The scum taking photos on his camera, well what do we expect.

Also the woman is likely believed to be known to her assailant according to police, but the press still call it a robbery intervention, also she would have seen multiple stab wounds in the front which could only have happened on his approach to save her. So she knew what happened alright, and plenty of witnesses reported her screaming for help and fleeing. we cant criticise them because the victim also ran away to escape his attacker and ran some distance before succumbing to his wounds. To witnesses of the ininial assault it might look like he got away.

Find the woman expose her, make her a public pariah. She will haved no choice but to give her friend/attacker/pimp up, put him inside for a long time.

Wow. fethed up, man.

Soladrin wrote:How does, "in a pool of his own blood" look other then what it says there...?

Because the press sensationalise, you have to read multiple accounts. It doesnt have the same headline to say people walked past a man who looked like a collapsed homeless drunk but was actually a have a go hero who had been stabbed and was quietly dying. No they say something like: people callously walked past a hero who was in his death throes and lying in a pool of his own blood.



You put a couple of pieces of A4 paper on the floor and call that a pool of blood, then lie down on it. Noone can see the paper, but you are still lying on your 'pool of blood'. remember clothing acts as a sponge. a blood pool from a pool the size of a couple of pieces of paper is more than enough to simulate a bleeding out wound. Ask some of the soldiedrs here, youn can bleed out from very small looking injuries and the bloodpool need not look anything like a huge red puddle.

What the hell is wrong with the world today? Seriously is it that much of a problem to help someone out for a minute or so? Im sure you boss will be ok with you being late because you tried to help someone out. That gak just pisses me off

I heard about that. This guy on fox news tried to defend it. He said that it it like a defense that they didnt want to get attacked them selves. Stupid. I think its hoe people see homeless. In a world were there are abundance of resources people see homeless people as a remeinder of nothing. It is so sad. i would at least stay there with him while i call the police or something.

KingCracker wrote:What the hell is wrong with the world today? Seriously is it that much of a problem to help someone out for a minute or so? Im sure you boss will be ok with you being late because you tried to help someone out. That gak just pisses me off

"Today"?

This is nothing new in US cities. Look up Kitty Genovese.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingCracker wrote:What the hell is wrong with the world today? Seriously is it that much of a problem to help someone out for a minute or so? Im sure you boss will be ok with you being late because you tried to help someone out. That gak just pisses me off

"Today"?

This is nothing new in US cities. Look up Kitty Genovese.

Exactly.

Unfortunatly the "it's not my problem","don't get involved" frame of mind is nothing new.

This does make me quite sad. This poor man bled to death and no-one had the common courtesy to call 911.

What a disgusting group of individuals.

Somebody called, but I doubt a homeless man bleeding to death on the streets is a big priority for EMS crews.

Eh, I probably wouldn't have stopped. I might have looked, but I don't think I would have seen anything anyways from what Orlanth says. And i do not want to talk or associate with homeless people. We have a meth clinic across the street from my high school, those people are freaking scary and fethed up.

From the video there isn't "a pool of blood" at all. Perfectly understandable why someone obviously homeless would get passed by laying on the sidewalk (which is where they usually are).

Do all of you check each and every homeless person laying on the sidewalk for puncture wounds? In most major cities you'd never get anywhere (and probably get stabbed yourself).

The guy who took a picture needs to be arrested. I'm sure they could charge him with something. Taking a picture of a dying guy and then just walking away. WTF?

Well, if they don't look like the drug addict type homeless, I usually stop to talk with them. Their often very interesting people.

Then again, our homeless problem doesn't come near to what you guys have.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:From the video there isn't "a pool of blood" at all. Perfectly understandable why someone obviously homeless would get passed by laying on the sidewalk (which is where they usually are).

Do all of you check each and every homeless person laying on the sidewalk for puncture wounds? In most major cities you'd never get anywhere (and probably get stabbed yourself).

From what i heard a man lift his head up and saw him in a pool of blood. then walked away doing nothing.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:From the video there isn't "a pool of blood" at all. Perfectly understandable why someone obviously homeless would get passed by laying on the sidewalk (which is where they usually are).

Do all of you check each and every homeless person laying on the sidewalk for puncture wounds? In most major cities you'd never get anywhere (and probably get stabbed yourself).

I get what your saying,my girlfriend and myself are both from "urban areas" (Brooklyn & New Orleans),and of course no one "checks" each random homeless person for stab wounds.
However in the video clip,one individule clearly turns the victiam over and shakes him,and then walks on.
Now,I would assume that it would be obvious to that individule that "something" was clearly wrong with the fallen man,yet he still walks off.
IMO that is clearly a "I don't want any part of this" situation.

Guitardian wrote:I'm not surprised at all. What I can say, to anyone who cares, is that a lot of the homeless refuse of society are some of the best people I have ever known and truly care about other people, and they deserve respect for toughing it out in their difficult lives, not scorn for being 'losers' by society's standards. I know. I've been there.

Having been there myself, I can completely disagree with you. There are many complicated situations within the lives of many homeless people, but the best people I have met in life, were not homeless at the time. Even the best of us can make really stupid decisions, and I would be lying to myself if I actually thought a lot of the people I knew, actually cared about anyone but themselves while homeless. You may find pockets of friendship, but most times people are out to feth you over, and simply pass the concept of being worthless further into societies psyche.

I have met one or two really good people when living on the streets, and both of them had basically snapped, and lost the ability to be reasonable. Life sucks quite a bit, and it happens to suck a whole lot more when you are homeless in any large city. Most people who are homeless for a long period of time, just give up altogether, as expected. I also would not consider most homeless people losers, but it is beyond me to consider most of them good people, simply because one man tried to protect a lady who probably didn't deserve the help. I don't consider most people good or bad, just people, doing people things.

If society is reliant on the least capable of them to take care of problems, there are serious issues within it.

Here is the video... the grainy, low quality, black and white, hard to completely understand video. It is near the middle of the article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/24/hugo-alfredo-tale-yax-doz_n_550854.html

Wrexasaur wrote:

Guitardian wrote:I'm not surprised at all. What I can say, to anyone who cares, is that a lot of the homeless refuse of society are some of the best people I have ever known and truly care about other people, and they deserve respect for toughing it out in their difficult lives, not scorn for being 'losers' by society's standards. I know. I've been there.

Having been there myself, I can completely disagree with you. There are many complicated situations within the lives of many homeless people, but the best people I have met in life, were not homeless at the time. Even the best of us can make really stupid decisions, and I would be lying to myself if I actually thought a lot of the people I knew, actually cared about anyone but themselves while homeless. You may find pockets of friendship, but most times people are out to feth you over, and simply pass the concept of being worthless further into societies psyche.

I have met one or two really good people when living on the streets, and both of them had basically snapped, and lost the ability to be reasonable. Life sucks quite a bit, and it happens to suck a whole lot more when you are homeless in any large city. Most people who are homeless for a long period of time, just give up altogether, as expected. I also would not consider most homeless people losers, but it is beyond me to consider most of them good people, simply because one man tried to protect a lady who probably didn't deserve the help. I don't consider most people good or bad, just people, doing people things.

If society is reliant on the least capable of them to take care of problems, there are serious issues within it.

Here is the video... the grainy, low quality, black and white, hard to completely understand video. It is near the middle of the article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/24/hugo-alfredo-tale-yax-doz_n_550854.html

I can see where you could get that impression. I dunno where you were at but I did 5 street years in Portland. Yeah I worked all day, paid cash, and hammering nails, but I also slept under a bench or a bridge or in a bush and yeah, we got drunk every night on cheap box wine (the "comforts of home"). There were 2 kinds of street people in Portland. One kind was ripping people off or rolling trolls or just outright stealing to get their tweak fix on. They were violent, rude, aggressive, and people you just wouldn't want to hang out with. The other kind were genuinely aware of that "we are all in the same boat so we may as well be on the same team" kind of mentality.

Back in those days, before my immigration status got worked out, we kind of formed 'tribes' that some people would consider a 'gang' of other like minded people who were just down and out for whatever reason, but genuinely well intentioned and mutually supportive. Of course it is intimidating to outsiders, tourists, suit-n-tie types... all these gutterpunks loitering in the park with their wierd hair and filthy clothes and accoustic guitars and such... but we were ALWAYS polite to the little old ladies and such no matter how much they were snubbing their noses at us. Rise above man.

I think perhaps this latter description of a 'homeless guy' is probably what this poor fella was. It's a shame none of the good upstanding citizens realize that (we all look the same to them) some of us, despite our appearance, were actually good caring people just in a tough spot. Personally I don't like that the state of my hair or my clothes made people automatically assume I was dangerous or worthless. It's a hard habit to get out of... I've been inside now for about 5 years and I still wear scummy old ripped up clothes and never bother much with showering or getting a haircut, because after so long not being ABLE to care about such frivolities, you just cease to care. You can take a Gutterpunk out of the gutter, but you will never get that gutter out of the punk, y'know?

I do not resent it at all. I had some of my wisest revelations and moments of joy and kindness in those years. But I can see where you get the impression that lots of them are worthless horrible desperate people. I'm sure you had a different experience (as does everyone in such a situation) and perhaps didn't form the right tribe with the right people. What I learned, as probably the hero/victim in this tragedy probably had realized too, is that we all do better if we help each other when needed. People who have 'stuff' sometimes forget that and take it for granted. People who have nothing and have achieved the wisdom of struggle KNOW you have to help each other, either that or they become the bitter and desperate types that you described.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its all good and well to say "maybe that lady was a bitch anyways and he should have just stayed out of it" but that's like pretending there are no starving kids in africa. It is misogynistic and quite frankly, unfairly condescending to the deceased. He DID the right thing. Something I would have done too. Something many of us would have done too. Whether or not she was a bitch is completely not the point, EVERYONE deserves to be defended against aggression. If nobody else steps up, then I guess we have to, and sometimes these consequences happen. It's the risk we take for being noble. It's not easy, nobody said it would be, nobody told you life was fair, but you have to know what is right and sadly nobody passing by took the time to notice what was going on because it's easier to just assume he isn't your problem when you can pidgeon-hole him as just another one of 'those kind of people'.

Guitardian wrote:I can see where you could get that impression. I dunno where you were at but I did 5 street years in Portland. Yeah I worked all day, paid cash, and hammering nails, but I also slept under a bench or a bridge or in a bush and yeah, we got drunk every night on cheap box wine (the "comforts of home"). There were 2 kinds of street people in Portland. One kind was ripping people off or rolling trolls or just outright stealing to get their tweak fix on. They were violent, rude, aggressive, and people you just wouldn't want to hang out with. The other kind were genuinely aware of that "we are all in the same boat so we may as well be on the same team" kind of mentality.

I understand that idea, but it just doesn't work with the experiences I have had, and I don't think I am particularly misinformed, since I have spent time with (IMHO) people from nearly every walk of big city life, aside the richest of the rich. On the streets, I knew of a lot of different groups of people, and every single group had strange ideas about the next group, based on what I would consider self-protection. Many groups had limits on the number of people they would hang out with at an given time. Nearly everyone I met did various drugs (and I don't have much of a problem with anything besides the hard stuff), and you could see the different groups reflecting those habits.

They weren't bad people for the most part, just in bad situations, and those bad situations reflected clearly in their characters, at the time.

Back in those days, before my immigration status got worked out, we kind of formed 'tribes' that some people would consider a 'gang' of other like minded people who were just down and out for whatever reason, but genuinely well intentioned and mutually supportive. Of course it is intimidating to outsiders, tourists, suit-n-tie types... all these gutterpunks loitering in the park with their wierd hair and filthy clothes and accoustic guitars and such... but we were ALWAYS polite to the little old ladies and such no matter how much they were snubbing their noses at us. Rise above man.

It basically is a gang, but not all gangs are directly related to violent crime.

"If you mess with one of us, we will kick your teeth in."

I don't have a big problem with a concept like that, and most punks I know are genuinely cool people. There is also a big difference between being homeless, and being a crack-head who is also homeless. Groups of hard drug users tend to have less of a group mentality, but most individuals on the streets HAVE to take care of themselves, whether or not there are a group of people that can support them.

I think perhaps this latter description of a 'homeless guy' is probably what this poor fella was. It's a shame none of the good upstanding citizens realize that (we all look the same to them) some of us, despite our appearance, were actually good caring people just in a tough spot. Personally I don't like that the state of my hair or my clothes made people automatically assume I was dangerous or worthless. It's a hard habit to get out of... I've been inside now for about 5 years and I still wear scummy old ripped up clothes and never bother much with showering or getting a haircut, because after so long not being ABLE to care about such frivolities, you just cease to care. You can take a Gutterpunk out of the gutter, but you will never get that gutter out of the punk, y'know?

Good hygiene is not a sin... I can't exactly blame people that give you funny looks, you might just smell bad.

I do not resent it at all. I had some of my wisest revelations and moments of joy and kindness in those years. But I can see where you get the impression that lots of them are worthless horrible desperate people.

I didn't say that most/lots are worthless etc, etc, people; I said bad situations bring out the worst in most people. You can find a bit of support here and there, but having a group of friends, AND having a lifestyle disconnected from the streets (yes, drinking in random places becomes depressing), is a much better situation to be in, and you will be less likely to be stabbed by some crack-head. There are individuals, and there are groups, but there are larger groups as well. While homeless, staying out of the negative aspects of that situation is very difficult, and completely out of your control in a lot of situations.

I'm sure you had a different experience (as does everyone in such a situation) and perhaps didn't form the right tribe with the right people. What I learned, as probably the hero/victim in this tragedy probably had realized too, is that we all do better if we help each other when needed. People who have 'stuff' sometimes forget that and take it for granted. People who have nothing and have achieved the wisdom of struggle KNOW you have to help each other, either that or they become the bitter and desperate types that you described.

I would sooner live in the woods than stay on the streets of a large city, ever again.

Having a group of friends that are also homeless, is not worth being homeless. It is an aspect to consider, but the overwhelming crappiness of sleeping on concrete is paramount. I found that in any group I was in, there was always an aspect of fear that I would not otherwise have without them, YMMV of course.

Its all good and well to say "maybe that lady was a bitch anyways and he should have just stayed out of it" but that's like pretending there are no starving kids in africa. It is misogynistic and quite frankly, unfairly condescending to the deceased. He DID the right thing. Something I would have done too. Something many of us would have done too. Whether or not she was a bitch is completely not the point, EVERYONE deserves to be defended against aggression. If nobody else steps up, then I guess we have to, and sometimes these consequences happen. It's the risk we take for being noble. It's not easy, nobody said it would be, nobody told you life was fair, but you have to know what is right and sadly nobody passing by took the time to notice what was going on because it's easier to just assume he isn't your problem when you can pidgeon-hole him as just another one of 'those kind of people'.

This is a very wishy-washy view of the situation in my view.

Fact...
- Homeless Hero dead

Highly likely...
- Woman probably knew her assailant.

With just these two bits of information, I can honestly say that the homeless hero made a decision that had little impact on that specific situation. (especially since I was not there, and do not know exactly what led up to the stabbing). In terms of his goal, I would honestly say he failed, but he can serve as a step (and is already doing so) to recognize and address the problems within that neighborhood.

Since the man was picked up within 2 hours, the call was probably made 20 minutes after he was seen lying on the street. There are only so many emergency vehicles in any given city, not surprising it took so long. Someone may have witnessed the stabbing from a window, and immediately called the police, but no cars were available. As mentioned before, there may be a lot of gang activity in the neighborhood that people don't want to be involved in. In the worst ghettos, no one will call the police.

This is not the type of situation that would automatically push my rage button, there are just too many aspects to consider. There was a story of a high school girl being raped in the back of Richmond High school recently, that is the type of situation where I would have a hard time NOT doing anything. Life is not always so clear that I should act like Don Quixote.

I'm not entirely sure why you and Orlanth seem to think that the woman knew her assailant. As you yourself have said, there is so little to go on, so how did you come to that conclusion?

The vast majority of domestic abuse/assault cases the victim knows the assailant.

Not all but it is something in the range of +70%. So one can infer that the victim knew her attacker. Which doesn't surprise considering how many women suffer from DCS these days.

That makes sense, but only if you're including such offences that occur within a home or dwelling, out on the streets it would seem that there is a much higher chance that the assailant ISN'T known.

Again, I'm just cuatious of people jumping to conclusions and instantly labelling the woman as being (one of) the villian/s.

Emperors Faithful wrote:That makes sense, but only if you're including such offences that occur within a home or dwelling, out on the streets it would seem that there is a much higher chance that the assailant ISN'T known.

Again, I'm just cuatious of people jumping to conclusions and instantly labelling the woman as being (one of) the villian/s.

All women are evil, everyone knows that.

Most attacks by know assailants do occur in the home but sometimes the assailant might wait for the victim outside his/her home.

We can only infer that she knew the assailant. It could have been totally random, odds are it probably was but there is also the slim chance she knew the attacker and either staged the attack to victimize her would-be saint or she knew the attacker but the attack was not a set-up.

Nobody will probably ever know except the woman, the attacker, the homeless man and God.

Actually, the homeless man couldn't have known. Unless a certain amount of conversation took place before the attack. To me, as I watched the camera it seems that after the woman walked by the attack happened over a very short period of time. That either means

a) Random mugging, offender attempted to carry out as quickly as possible, and didn't know the victim.

b) Pre-planned attack, the offender knew the victim and had already decided to attack/threaten/attempt to kill them in that manner. No conversation, or not very much, took place before the intervention.

I was once on a trip to NYC to see my dad. I like to think I'm usually pretty good to the homeless, buying them food and what not. On this particular occasion, I was walking up the street and I heard a man screaming. Coming around the corner, I saw an obviously homeless man slumped against the side of the building. With one hand, he was holding up one of his pant legs, to expose a hideous wound above his ankle, and with the other, he held a plastic cup for collections.

I walked by. I told myself, the wound looked fake, if he was really injured, he would have gone to the hospital. I've been conned before, I wasn't going to this time. I don't know why I didn't do anything, called an ambulance, or something.

All I know is have yet to forgive myself for not.

A lot of them are scared to go to the hospital. They've been "off-the-grid" for so long, often have no I.D. (which was my case), or may just be intimidated by the prospect of all the paperwork, and putting himself in a situation where he is obviously not going to be able to pay, and therefore treated like gak if he does go for help. I know that back in those days, I wouldn't set foot in a place like that unless I was really REALLY hurt. Fortunately I got a solid constitution, and other than wine and cigs, nothing around that could hurt me. I knew other people though who would O.D. on heroine or meth and STILL refuse to be taken to an emergency room because they were scared the police would get involved.

A few of us learned CPR at those free classes at health clinics for precisely that reason and I have had to perform it twice on an overdose victim because he was so adamant about staying 'off-the-grid'. Dumb, I know. But hey we all do irrational things with ourselves from time to time.

There are some horrible people in this world. I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Hardly, I doubt more then several hundred people walked past him as he died, maybe less. Hardly say's something about the 6.7 billion people in our world.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Hardly, I doubt more then several hundred people walked past him as he died, maybe less. Hardly say's something about the 6.7 billion people in our world.

About now I would normally break into the whole hippy-rant thing, saying that all 6.7 billion of us are bad, coz we made climate change, but I won't.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There are some horrible people in this world. I think this says something about humanity as a whole.

Please, people only care about suffering in far away countries when sad children are involved. Homeless guy dying in the streets? There's nothing cute or newsworthy about that. Now homeless guy dying in the street after supposedly stopping a mugging, that's something that doesn't happen every day I can get on board with feeling bad about for 5 or 10 minutes then forgetting about until I need anecdote to bring up in a conversation.

My town is full of panhandlers. They act homeless with signs and everything but you can spot the phonies miles away.

Fateweaver wrote:My town is full of panhandlers. They act homeless with signs and everything but you can spot the phonies miles away.

Imitation homeless?...not quite sure what you mean here Fate.

They dress the part and have signs near the highway saying "will work for food" or "homeless, please help" but some of them are known in town to in fact NOT be homeless.

Unfortunately no law against panhandling in the town I live in so cops can do nothing about it.

Imitation homeless?...not quite sure what you mean here Fate.

We have a fare share of them here too actually. Basically it's literally people who pretend to be homeless and beg for money even though they live in a decent home. You can apparently make good change on a busy day on the streets of London. The daughter of one goes to my school.

Fateweaver wrote:They dress the part and have signs near the highway saying "will work for food" or "homeless, please help" but some of them are known in town to in fact NOT be homeless.

Unfortunately no law against panhandling in the town I live in so cops can do nothing about it.

Aha,I see what your talking about...yes,there are some people who run scams,hustle and con,several times I've given a dollar or two to a guy who "panhandles" around the corner from my job becuase his "car ran out of gas" (evidently his car runs on malt liquor).
But you have to admit Fate,there is a large percentage of people who are homeless due to factors beyond their control,people who have worked hard,served in the military and such,and have still,for one reason or another ended up on the street.

Oh I know they are there. We have a few living under one of the bridges in my town, just pointing out not all homeless are as they appear to be.

Best homeless man I ever saw had a sign saying "Need money for booze". I gave him a 10 spot because his honesty outweighed the fact he wanted money for an addiction he had.

Sad. Really and truly sad. The world needs more people like him. He proves that even when the world beats you up and throws you in the gutter, you ccan still do something with your life.

I'd give him money for lessons. I mean maybe his family WAS killed by ninjas.

Just saying.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Yup. Back when out there, the only signs we ever flew were ridiculously obvious. People appreciate honesty... "homeless and trying to get drunk so I can sleep tonight" or "I really want a cheeseburger but I'm broke, got 75 cents?" works a lot better than "trying to buy my grandma a new hip". Trouble is that some folks try to pull those cons and just get a free handout they don't need, and end up ruining it for the rest of us who at some time had to tell the truth "My friend is preggo, homeless, not my kid, and I'm just trying to help... can you help too?" because if you are one of those people who think it's just someone else's problem and just walk on by you will use it as an excuse to not help, assuming that a story like that is just another con artist. So it isn't really the walk-by people who can be blamed for this sort of thing occuring, it's the fakers that desensitize everyone to the idea that sometimes someone does actually honestly just need some help.

That's why if someone says they need money for booze I'll give. Drugs though? Feth off and die. No, that's not attacking homeless drug addicts, the rich can feth off and die too.

Fateweaver- the equal opportunity F-off and Die!

Sorry if I'm overly 'hippy' about this, but nobody should just feth of and die if someone can help. Drugs or otherwise. This isn't a joke it was somebody's life.

I don't know why this surprises anyone. Remember the woman that collapsed in a hospital E.R. and laid there for over an hour and died? Remember the gang rape of a girl in Richmond with at least 15 witnesses? Remember the woman in Detroit that was thrown off a bridge and died during an assault while onlookers did nothing (some reports said the onlookers cheered)?

Life is cheap and getting cheaper all the time.

Guitardian wrote:Sorry if I'm overly 'hippy' about this, but nobody should just feth of and die if someone can help. Drugs or otherwise. This isn't a joke it was somebody's life.

No excuse for getting hooked on drugs so I have no sympathy.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:
About now I would normally break into the whole hippy-rant thing, saying that all 6.7 billion of us are bad, coz we made climate change, but I won't.

Good thing then that we didn't right?

Shhhhh. Al Gore will hear you Soladrin.

Oh noes, MANBEARPIG IS AFTER ME!

Another thread entirely derailed by fateweaver.

If Yak is still considering banning politics or religious discussion, he'd be better served banning fateweaver and seeing the difference.

You have contributed to the discussion with that post how?

Pot meet Kettle.

You do nothing elsewhere on these boards.

Your sole contribution to dakka is to appear in OT like some malignant little beast from folklore and have 1 sided arguments with whoever you imagine has slighted your foil hat wearing conspiracies for page after page of derailment and hatred.

Seriously, what the hell do you do that has anything to do with owning toy soldiers?

?

I don't take threads OT all the time. I don't derail every thread. They get derailed because the likes of you and Shuma attack every post I make and them I defend myself instead of reporting your asses like I should.

I post in the toy soldiers thread. If you paid any attention you'd see that HBMC is my Shuma outside of the OT forum.

My 2nd highest thread count is News and Rumours, 3rd highest is in any of the M/P/T threads.

Also, when was it ever a requirement to post in the toy soldiers threads to be a member on dakka. Even if I didn't post anywhere else on dakka I have as much right to post in OT as you do.

Try actually exercising your grey matter before you post, mmmmmmkay?

MGS, I haven't really picked up Fateweaver derailing the thread all that much. You might want to lay off him.


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Fateweaver wrote:

Also, when was it ever a requirement to post in the toy soldiers threads to be a member on dakka. Even if I didn't post anywhere else on dakka I have as much right to post in OT as you do.

Good point. I come here mostly for the OT forum. And the lols.

Emperors Faithful wrote:MGS, I haven't really picked up Fateweaver derailing the thread all that much. You might want to lay off him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:

Also, when was it ever a requirement to post in the toy soldiers threads to be a member on dakka. Even if I didn't post anywhere else on dakka I have as much right to post in OT as you do.

Good point. I come here mostly for the OT forum. And the lols.

Then you should leave as well.

No, seriously, you want to jump in here to fateweaver's defence.

WtF do you contribute, stupid arsed 4chan pics and drivel.

Again, sweet FA. So you tell me princess, what the feth is your opinion worth?

ALSO
WELCOME TO MONDAY!

Hey guys don't take everything so personally. I don't think Fateweaver was doing anything wrong expressing his opinion, which is largely understandable, about why homeless people get ignored. That's not derailment it is development. I think we are all on the same page about this, just with different personal experiences from which we percieve or try to understand it. Sharing those experiences, or our opinions about others perspectives is how people communicate. No need to get offensive/defensive about it.

.. or we could, optimistically, try to salvage something from the thread before it dies. That'd be good.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:No, seriously, you want to jump in here to fateweaver's defence.

WtF do you contribute, stupid arsed 4chan pics and drivel.

Again, sweet FA. So you tell me princess, what the feth is your opinion worth?

ALSO
WELCOME TO MONDAY!

I'm going to assume that you're either drunk, high or a combination of the two. Becuase the only alternative is for me to lose all respect I have for you, and believe me I've come to value your opinion here on Dakka.

From what I have seen (and I may be wrong I've only been on here a couple of months), the best way to get a thread locked is when it reduces to personal jabs instead of something either related to, or offshot from the origional train of thought. Nobody wants to read about one posters little gripe with anothers... Or maybe I'm wrong and should just go back to kicking sand on the playground. P.M. exists for a reason. I don't agree with Fateweaver sometimes too but I don't think it's out of line for him to share his thoughts, as we all do. I dunno maybe I'm just a hippy, right? All I'm saying is "calm down guys."

You're right. This is a matter for PM.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:MGS, I haven't really picked up Fateweaver derailing the thread all that much. You might want to lay off him.


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Fateweaver wrote:

Also, when was it ever a requirement to post in the toy soldiers threads to be a member on dakka. Even if I didn't post anywhere else on dakka I have as much right to post in OT as you do.

Good point. I come here mostly for the OT forum. And the lols.

Then you should leave as well.

I'm staying anyway

sexiest_hero wrote:
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/multiple-pedestrians-ignore-dying-new-york-hero-hugo-alfredo-tale-yax/19452892?icid=main|main|dl1|link1|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fnation%2Farticle%2Fmultiple-pedestrians-ignore-dying-new-york-hero-hugo-alfredo-tale-yax%2F19452892

Aol news.

(April 24) -- A homeless man who was stabbed while saving a woman from a knife-wielding attacker lay dying in a pool of his own blood for more than an hour while several New Yorkers walked past without calling for help.

Surveillance video obtained by the New York Post shows that some passers-by paused to gawk at Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax early Sunday morning and yet kept on walking.

One man came out of a nearby building and took a cellphone photo of the victim before leaving. Another leaned over and vigorously shook the dead man before walking away. But most people never stopped.

Firefighters arrived more than an hour and 20 minutes after Tale-Yax collapsed. By that time, the 31-year-old was dead.

"They needed to help and call the police. I don't get it," resident Ramon Bellasco, 46, told the Post.

The incident happened at 7:21 a.m. almost a week ago at 88 Road and 144th Street in the borough of Queens, but police didn't have a clear idea of what happened until recently.

Tale-Yax is seen on the grainy video approaching a man who was threatening a woman with a knife. The man turned and stabbed Tale-Yax but most of the action is out of the security camera's field of vision. Both the stabber and the woman then fled in different directions and Tale-Yax stumbled a few paces before collapsing face-down on the sidewalk.

Within a minute or so, the first of a long series of people begins walking by Tale-Yax without going to his aid.

Police told the Post they received four 911 calls at around the time of the attack reporting a woman screaming, but found nothing. They said they received no other 911 calls.

The incident is reminiscent of the rape and murder of Kitty Genovese, also in Queens, in 1964. In that case, dozens of people witnessed some or all of the attack and yet no one did anything to stop it.

No arrests have been made in the latest slaying, and police have been unable to identify the woman Tale-Yax was trying to help.

This is not acceptable.

If y'all wanna blame somebody in this story, it seems like you should blame the woman who was menaced with the knife for not calling for the police and EMS...

As for the other passers-by, if it wasn't obvious that he'd been stabbed and injured, then he'd look like just another bum sleeping it off on the sidewalk. Do any of us commonly wake sleeping bums to ask them if they're "okay?"

Ratbarf wrote:

Imitation homeless?...not quite sure what you mean here Fate.

We have a fare share of them here too actually. Basically it's literally people who pretend to be homeless and beg for money even though they live in a decent home. You can apparently make good change on a busy day on the streets of London. The daughter of one goes to my school.

Same to same.

It's bad for that here too- beggars get bussed to good locations and it's all controlled by particular groups. I think most of the "real" homeless are actually pushed out by these fakers. A lot of them are mentally ill too, so it's especially tragic.
Commisar, if someone's to blame, surely it's Stabs Mc Kility, the knife wielding scumbag?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Another thread entirely derailed by fateweaver.

If Yak is still considering banning politics or religious discussion, he'd be better served banning fateweaver and seeing the difference.

His points are releveant. You can disagree with them, but they are as relevant as anything else posted here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:No, seriously, you want to jump in here to fateweaver's defence.

WtF do you contribute, stupid arsed 4chan pics and drivel.

Again, sweet FA. So you tell me princess, what the feth is your opinion worth?

ALSO
WELCOME TO MONDAY!

MGS you need to take a chill pill as those are warnable attacks. Here, wiener dogs will save this thread.


Letys get back to topic now as its interesting please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:From what I have seen (and I may be wrong I've only been on here a couple of months), the best way to get a thread locked is when it reduces to personal jabs instead of something either related to, or offshot from the origional train of thought. Nobody wants to read about one posters little gripe with anothers... Or maybe I'm wrong and should just go back to kicking sand on the playground. P.M. exists for a reason. I don't agree with Fateweaver sometimes too but I don't think it's out of line for him to share his thoughts, as we all do. I dunno maybe I'm just a hippy, right? All I'm saying is "calm down guys."

Guitardian (sp) has the way of it. Now back on point as this is a world I do not live in, and the thread is illuminating.


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Commissar Molotov wrote:If y'all wanna blame somebody in this story, it seems like you should blame the woman who was menaced with the knife for not calling for the police and EMS...

As for the other passers-by, if it wasn't obvious that he'd been stabbed and injured, then he'd look like just another bum sleeping it off on the sidewalk. Do any of us commonly wake sleeping bums to ask them if they're "okay?"

Maybe we should actually blame the guy who, you know, stabbed the dude.

Frazzled wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Another thread entirely derailed by fateweaver.

If Yak is still considering banning politics or religious discussion, he'd be better served banning fateweaver and seeing the difference.

His points are releveant. You can disagree with them, but they are as relevant as anything else posted here.

What does Al Gore have to do with a homeless man dying on the streets?

But meh. I said it once, and I'll say it again:

Kitty Genovese.

Walls exist for a reason. They give us a sense of non-involvement, they let us feel that "it's not our problem" and there's no better example than when cases like this show up.

As for the people saying "the woman should have called the police!"...
How do we know she didn't? If firefighters/EMS came to the scene a few hours later as was alluded to in the article--they were called by someone. But I seriously doubt they'd have come quick anyways, what with the fact that the only description they'd really have gotten was "There might be a homeless guy lying on the sidewalk at the corner of X & Y".

Also, the poor woman had just been threatened with a knife and then seen a guy stabbed. That's gonna freak anyone out. She might have legged it for a long time before she could muster the bravery to stop. I don't judge her for that.

Dude Al Gore invented the internet. He is always relevant. Serially!!!

Who's Kitty Genovese?

Catherine Susan Genovese (July 7, 1935[1] – March 13, 1964), commonly known as Kitty Genovese, was a New York City woman who was stabbed to death near her home in the Kew Gardens section of Queens, New York on March 13, 1964.[3] Genovese was buried in a family grave at Lakeview Cemetery in New Canaan, Connecticut.

The circumstances of her murder and the lack of reaction of numerous neighbors were reported by a newspaper article published two weeks later; the common portrayal of neighbors being fully aware but completely nonresponsive has later been criticized as inaccurate. Nonetheless, it prompted investigation into the social psychological phenomenon that has become known as the bystander effect (seldom: "Genovese syndrome")[4] and especially diffusion of responsibility.

The incident was kinda graphic, so I'm just posting the link rather than copy/pasting it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

Thanks I didn't want to do a search on "Kitty"...

Make sure you read the whole article.
The stuff about her killer is especially chilling.

This is the important part, especially in relation to the current discussion. A grand total of two dozen people walked by this man on the sidewalk, within the 2 hours it took the emergency services to arrive.

The lack of reaction of numerous neighbors watching the scene prompted research into diffusion of responsibility and the bystander effect. Social psychologists John Darley and Bibb Latané started this line of research, showing that contrary to common expectations, larger numbers of bystanders decrease the likelihood that someone will step forward and help a victim. The reasons include the fact that onlookers see that others are not helping either, that onlookers believe others will know better how to help, and that onlookers feel uncertain about helping while others are watching. The Kitty Genovese case thus became a classic feature of social psychology textbooks.

In September 2007, the American Psychologist published an examination of the factual basis of coverage of the Kitty Genovese murder in psychology textbooks. The three authors concluded that the story is more parable than fact, largely because of inaccurate newspaper coverage at the time of the incident. According to the authors, "despite this absence of evidence, the story continues to inhabit our introductory social psychology textbooks (and thus the minds of future social psychologists)." One interpretation of the parable is that the drama and ease of teaching the exaggerated story makes it easier for professors to capture student attention and interest.

Long story short, Psychologists often jump the gun, and have no insight whatsoever into anything.

Shhhh, Wrex! I'm teaching here!

Social psychologists John Darley and Bibb Latané started this line of research, showing that contrary to common expectations, larger numbers of bystanders decrease the likelihood that someone will step forward and help a victim. The reasons include the fact that onlookers see that others are not helping either, that onlookers believe others will know better how to help, and that onlookers feel uncertain about helping while others are watching. The Kitty Genovese case thus became a classic feature of social psychology textbooks.

The Kitty Genovese case is sort of wonky, but anyone who has ever experience anxiety before giving a public presentation has experienced the same emotional response which prevents others from stepping in to aid a wounded person.

Crowd psychology is some crazy stuff, yo.

I like that the lot of you speak up very strongly, and yet most of you would probably do the same in "their" situation.

A few years ago while on my way to work, there was a guy lying in a park, right next to the walkway i was using.
(typical drunk/user)

So i ask the guy if he needs help, he didin't answer. I ask the guy if he needs me to help him home.
He looks at me, silent again. I ask if hes sure he doesn't need help. No answer, so i walk away. Figuring hes sobering up.
Now this was in sweden, in daylight. So the risk of being, hurt cuz you're trying to help someone is probably 0%

In New York (from what i know, a real gak hole) at Night.

Knowing myself i would probably have checked on him, and since i have some training from the marines, i could probably help too. But am i sure? No.

Don't be so quick to judge.

Dont be quick to judge? You can see blood splatter on the ground from when he fell over, where his hands hit the pavement. Those people are cowards at least. I mean that guy that shook him, you could tell he didnt feel right about leaving the man there, as he went BACK a second time. Then still left. WTF? I think its easy for others to jump to their defense just because they cant see themselves trying to actually help another human being. And that to me, is not only cowardice, but completely disgusting

Well, someone did call emergency services.

It's crazy because we're learning about this stuff in my Intro to Psychology class right now.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

KingCracker wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I'm sorry, do you think urban centers' emergency responders should place a high priority on responding to reports of vagrants just laying there?

Because if you do--I don't know what the hell to tell you, because emergency responders would be busy while your home is being robbed to a report of a bum laying on a park bench.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, someone did call emergency services.

And I imagine the 911 call going something like
911 emergency how can I help you

Yea uh....theres this GUY laying around the sidewalk here.....and uh hes REALLY ripe smelling. I mean, I cant even enjoy my frappa mocha latte with light foam without wanting to vomit. Can you do something?

Yes sir we will send someone out right away

I'm sorry, do you think urban centers' emergency responders should place a high priority on responding to reports of vagrants just laying there?

Because if you do--I don't know what the hell to tell you, because emergency responders would be busy while your home is being robbed to a report of a bum laying on a park bench.

Again...the point is one individule turned the wounded man over,and though I don't "know" for a fact,I would hazzard to guess it would be obvious that the wounded man wasn't just "sleeping".
From that point,how hard is it to dial 911?
And why would the caller have to include the information the fallen man is "homeless",is it all that difficult to simply say "Hey,there is a man on the corner of "blah and blah" and he looks like he needs some help"...?

The person who examined him was the last one in the video. Could it be possible that he was the one who called?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:The person who examined him was the last one in the video. Could it be possible that he was the one who called?

Very possible,but why not stay with the victiam until some help arives?
Maybe I'm missing something...but I can't see just walking off while someone dies.

Would you stay with someone who is likely already dead, when you've got somewhere to be?

Kanluwen wrote:Would you stay with someone who is likely already dead, when you've got somewhere to be?

More than likely I would.
But more so,I would have tried to help had the victim still been alive,I have emegency first aid training (not a huge help,but better than nothing)and at least stayed until EMS arrived.
The idea that I have someplace else to be wouldn't be an issue to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should add however,that my Mother,Grandmother,an Aunt,two Cousins,a Sister and my Brother are/were all Nurses,and I worked as a Tech at a State Hospital,so perhaps it's my upbringing/experince that would compell me to act in the manner I would.

@Kanlumwen
ummm... YEAH you stay with someone who may be dying... and anyone you discovered was dead that nobody had noticed yet too. I'm pretty sure your boss at that 'somewhere to be' would be pretty understanding given the circumstances. It isn't about being too busy to care, it's about bad priorities. Was your 'somewhere to be' a date down the street, a bus to catch, a job you suck at and already get crap from your boss from being late? Which 'somewhere to be' is worth more than someone's life?

Saw it on the news this morning.

Terrible, all of those people who didn't help should be prosecuted for being dumbasses.

Is it possible that the woman did call? Since she was safe (and if she wasn't aware of the extent of the injury), maybe the response wasn't as quick as it should have been.

The reason why no-one helped is because they would, more than likely, be sued for helping him.

Someone hasn't heard of Kitty Genovese? Fraz, your college didn't have Intro Psych as a requirement? Or were the cells holding that data some of the weak ones who couldn't survive the intervening decades of tequila?

This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The bystander effect was first demonstrated in the laboratory by John Darley and Bibb Latane in 1968.[2] These researchers launched a series of experiments that resulted in one of the strongest and most replicable effects in social psychology. In a typical experiment, the participant is either alone or among a group of other participants or confederates. An emergency situation is then staged — examples include smoke pouring from a vent in the room, a woman falling and becoming injured, a student having an epileptic seizure, etc. The researchers then measure how long it takes the participants to act, and whether or not they intervene at all. These experiments virtually always find that the presence of others inhibits helping, often by a large margin.[citation needed]

There are in fact many reasons why bystanders in groups fail to act in emergency situations, but social psychologists have focused most of their attention on two major factors. According to a basic principle of social influence, bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since everyone is doing exactly the same thing (nothing), they all conclude from the inaction of others that help is not needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance or social proof. The other major obstacle to intervention is known as diffusion of responsibility. This occurs when observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so each individual feels less responsible and refrains from doing anything.

Mannahnin wrote:Someone hasn't heard of Kitty Genovese? Fraz, your college didn't have Intro Psych as a requirement? Or were the cells holding that data some of the weak ones who couldn't survive the intervening decades of tequila?

This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The bystander effect was first demonstrated in the laboratory by John Darley and Bibb Latane in 1968.[2] These researchers launched a series of experiments that resulted in one of the strongest and most replicable effects in social psychology. In a typical experiment, the participant is either alone or among a group of other participants or confederates. An emergency situation is then staged — examples include smoke pouring from a vent in the room, a woman falling and becoming injured, a student having an epileptic seizure, etc. The researchers then measure how long it takes the participants to act, and whether or not they intervene at all. These experiments virtually always find that the presence of others inhibits helping, often by a large margin.[citation needed]

There are in fact many reasons why bystanders in groups fail to act in emergency situations, but social psychologists have focused most of their attention on two major factors. According to a basic principle of social influence, bystanders monitor the reactions of other people in an emergency situation to see if others think that it is necessary to intervene. Since everyone is doing exactly the same thing (nothing), they all conclude from the inaction of others that help is not needed. This is an example of pluralistic ignorance or social proof. The other major obstacle to intervention is known as diffusion of responsibility. This occurs when observers all assume that someone else is going to intervene and so each individual feels less responsible and refrains from doing anything.

You forget Raggie but when i went to college, intro to psychology involved how to outwit the grizzly as part of rights to manhood. You youngins and your new toys like writing, the wheel, speech...

Gwar! wrote:The reason why no-one helped is because they would, more than likely, be sued for helping him.

Rarely the case, but a very common feeble excuse. Normally threats of lawsuits occur if you try to apply medical help. Don't attempt first aid uncertificated, and never administer ANY medicine, the most you can do is place the needed pills in someone hand and place the hand next to the mouth. Unconscious people should never have medicine anyway so this covers all bases.



So far I have been pretty much on the money regarding my profiling of this case.

I hope they find the selfish bitch soon, chances are she is remaining silent to cooperate with her boyfriend or pimp who stabbed Tale-Yax. Chances are without good descriptions from the orignal witnesses this case will never be closed and that makes me more than upset.

People have asked off and on with this thread how can you tell and more importantly should we get involved.

I think we can, and on several occasions I have done so one way or another, with vartying degrees of success. I sympathise entirely with thwe man who examined the body he looked like he was helping, then ran away, and that does fit with the idea of someone making a late 911 call. Again blame the press for that, it makes far better media impact to say 'noone called' rather than 'someone eventually called' and it isn't exactly a lie to say the former.

Anyway if you see a woman in distress what are you to do. Frankly it involves observation and a bit of wisdom, you cant ber scum but you have to have an understanding of how scum think. After a short observation you should be able to tell the difference between a woman being mugged or sexually assaulted and a 'domestic' that has found its way outdoors. Interfere with the later and in some cases the woman might even turn on you. Also look at cases where two or more men are fighting with women present, that is exceptionally dangerous, the women might be screaming or shouting, but chances are beneath the surface they are egging on not trying to stop the conflict. This is part of our anciwent animal heritage by which a female presents herself to get tqwo males to compete or mating rights. It might have more complex causes and more sophisticated rules but essentially it comes down to the same animal instinct.

You have to have discernment. If this all sounds too incredulous to you then remember this, most violence against women is domestic in nature and most victims of domestic violence stay weith and even collude with their abusers. Battered partner syndrome also carries over to scum in the pubs and clubs, scum in the street and echoed by the 'relationship' between prostitute and pimp. yes it might be different, all cases are individual, but Tale-Yax is not the only man to fall victim trying to help a women who could help herself by choosing different relationships. I have seen this ugly side to humanity more often than I would like, its the price of being someone who doesn't sit around while others suffer.

Only once have I witnessed an attack, more on that later, but I have known women who have made bad choices tried to help and in one case escaped with my life and liberty only by being cautious and having foresight enough to see the trap set for me.

Mannahnin wrote:
This is a sad story, but as pointed out, crowd psychology (particularly diffusion of responsibility) makes it less likely for any given individual to step up and get involved. Wrex, that section you quoted doesn't say "psychologists jump the gun", it says that the actual facts of the case were exaggerated in the news, and that the exaggerated version is often still referred to in discussions of the "bystander effect". It's dramatic and illustrative, and tends to stick in people's minds. When I took Intro Psych 15 years ago, the textbook did point out that the original story was exaggerated in the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Frankly I think this is a sanitisation. I have seen the bystander effect I remember once when a teenage girl was run over and screaming, she drew a crowd of 'zombies' and those trying to help her were getting increasingly agitated to them. I was a child at the time and could feel the pull, but could see that it was wrong and carried on walking. I can still feel the pull every time I find an accident, and to some extent I accommodate that by helping out. See an accident, approach and ask if help can be given or help myself if noone else does. I want to do that, if I cannot help I walk away swiftly because I feel the human animal in me too.

However in some cases it gets much darker, people taking a very active perverse glee at someones suffering, normally if the victim is female and also based heavily on the group culture of the bystanders. Not all cultures are the same, I see very strong ethnic differences at how people watch stuff. Some people stand in silent shock and do nothing, those who come from other backgrounds where life is cheaper often stand wide eyed with a perverse joy, its disturbing to witness this, the human animal just below the surface and how we are brought up and which tribe we come from really does effect the face of that animal.


If you really want to know about this phenomena dont ask the psychologists ask soldiers who have gone to former Yugoslavia, or central Africa, or better yet read accounts of the Roman Ludi Magni. This will tell you all you need to know and more about the nature of the human beings latent desire to gloat over the suffering of others. What I see sometimes more clearly mimiced the description of crowd antics at the Roman games and goes beyond any clinical 'bystander effect'.

dogma wrote:I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

I will tell you of an incident I witnessed back in Hackney in 1990. Then you can judge me on what I did.

I walked on by.

It was just after eleven and I was walking home through a not very nice part of east London where I was living as a student. My route was long and I saw all sorts of things, but in all my time was never subjected to any danger or saw anything bad. perhaps because I am a big guy, perhaps because I am generally very unobservant. anyway this one evning I saw the scuffle ahead very 'late' it was obvious and only fifty yeards ahead of me when I first noticed, and it was a womans scream for help that got my attention.

as I approached I could see three large black men by the curb, one holding on to a struggling pretty white blonde teenage woman in light clothing. She was trying to pull away and was dangling on the arm of this huge fellow. Her assailants looked fairly impassive. Near the streetside was a semi circle of Islamics aged about 20-30, more than enough of them to stop this if they wanted to, and two more in the Kebab shop that lit the whole scene. They had this perverse expression and were drinking it in wide eyed, it was the most perverse and distressing sight I have ever seen.
I remember help calls. 'Someone help me please!' comes to mind, and repeated cries of 'Help!' and 'Let me go!'.

As I approached I wanted to help but could see that I would get no help, the three active men had thick padded jackets and looked powerful, I doubt i could take on any of them, i may be big but have never been a brawler and these guys looked hardened; the bystanders were an unknown quantity all I could tell was that they would not back up me if any choices were made. So I took a 'tactical decision' I walked straight through the incident without turning around looking down or looking back. I walked right through the semi-circle of bystanders and past her , close enough to touch her,and she called out for help and screamed again. Then turned the corner. I made it look like I didn't care.

As soon as I was around the corner (not heading where I wanted to go) I ran towards the only place of any activity, excepting the scum Kebab shop, which was a pub. I should have known that running to the pub would have brought me back into LOS, but I was trying to do what I could. The pub had light on and people inside and I knocked on the door and called for help through the lettersbox. It was after closing time and what is known as a 'shut in' by which drinking can continue after hours so long as noone new enters the premesis and no drinks are paid for. This rule does not prescribe helping people in emergencies but noone wanted to move anyway. With every attempt to knock on the doors or windows or ask for someone to call the police I got nothing but calls to go away, or words to that effect. Eventually someone was 'helpful' enough to tell me where a payphone was. So I ran down another street to look for it, found it and called the police.

The police responded quickly but time was off the essence I had to get back to the scene to observe, the scum would scatter when the sirens were heard and I wanted to be able to give good info on where the girl was if I was to be of any help to her. When I got back to the kebab shop the street was empty, no girl, no attackers and only two or three people milling about further down and I had no idea if they were witnesses not being good with faces. However that wasn't a problem, I had accounted for my lack of descriptive ability and my unwillingness to study the faces of the assailants in any detail because the kebab shop was open for business. There were people who clearly saw everything and would know which direction the girl was taken .

I went inside, I remember the two staff well I remember their sicko expressions and boggle eyed stares from earlier (and I will never forget then) and one of them turned to me with a greasy serve-the-customer smile. I asked him where the girl was and what happened. The smile died on his face ' Why the f**k do you care you walked on by' he said with an accusatory look. I cannot remember being more shocked by such blatant hypocrasy but kept my cool 'But I ran to call the police!' I exclaimed. The look on this mans face got even more contemptuous and he nodded his nose towards the door to indicate I was to leave the shop. I needed no encouragement to get out, a short while after the police car arrived. Two cops got out and I approached them.

Like I said I am not very observant and could give no useful descriptions, but could point of that the kebab shop staff saw everything. a policeman ushered me into the car and we drove off trying to find her. None of the locals on the street that night were questioned and when I asked about talking to the kebab shop owners the policeman took one look at them and replied. 'Don't bother, they wouldn't have seen anything.' I got no impression the policemen were trying to shirk their job, just that the only way to find her was a rapid search of the streets. We drove around stopping and starting at high speeds, but never did find the girl. The policemen did not condemn me for walking past her and I have never had any shame over what I did.
After a fruitless search the policemen drove me partway home, I know nothing more and I never knew what happened to her. In hindsight I think the three men cleared away if and when someone noticed me running for the pub. I wanted to make out I did not care at all, and running as fast as I could could mean only one thing. I don't know if I could have saved her had I stayed and didn't discuss this with the officers, but on the way home one of the policemen did remark to me that I was the only caller to have reported the incident.

Nasty stuff.
It's always difficult to know what you yourself would do in a situatiuon like this.

But knowing myself i would probably have to intervene. Probably get hurt trying.

Orlanth you did what you were supposed to do, call the cops and observe.

dogma wrote:I may have called 911, but I wouldn't have stopped to help him. There are many risks in this sort of situation, and very few, if any, rewards.

Does that make me a coward? Maybe. It certainly doesn't make me brave.

Least your honest Dogma..

Im pretty brave, im also a heartless bastard when it comes to homeless people. If i saw the bloke like that slumped on the floor id probably just presume he had gak himself or something and i admit i would probably just walk on by. I might even tut to myself and say "look at that fething smelly bum!"

Its harsh to slag everyone off so much and get on your high horse, maybe if you actually saw the whole event sure, but 99% of the people will have just seen what they thought was your average pissed up hobo slumped on the street and cracked on with their day. I ignore them as much as possible in my general life, but i admit it, im a selfish prick.

^^

That is why I like you Matty.....in the most heterosexual of ways of course.

Well a lot of homeless people I know would have helped you Matt if you were in such a situation, while a lot of 'normal' people would be too scared to get involved. So yeah I'll ride my high horse thank you very much. Having been there, done that lifestyle for a while I can say confidently that you shouldn't stereotype the homeless 'bum'.

mattyrm wrote:
Least your honest Dogma..

Im pretty brave, im also a heartless bastard when it comes to homeless people. If i saw the bloke like that slumped on the floor id probably just presume he had gak himself or something and i admit i would probably just walk on by. I might even tut to myself and say "look at that fething smelly bum!"

Its harsh to slag everyone off so much and get on your high horse, maybe if you actually saw the whole event sure, but 99% of the people will have just seen what they thought was your average pissed up hobo slumped on the street and cracked on with their day. I ignore them as much as possible in my general life, but i admit it, im a selfish prick.

Exactly, its a contextual thing. I may have noticed that the guy was bleeding, but I wouldn't have cared because he is no more relevant to me, on a scale of emotional significance, than a man dieing alone in Darfur. For me it isn't an issue of the crowd influencing my behavior, as I have ungodly amounts of training in how to escape that sort of thing.

The issue for me is that, because I don't care, I have no incentive (or ability, really) to help directly and a great deal of incentive to go about my business.

Interestingly, I generally give beggars money. Both because I don't need all of mine, and because it angers many of my peers.

I do care, but through several years work with homeless populations, am somewhat jaded. If I could see the blood I'd have helped. But if I simply saw a homeless guy lying on the sidewalk, I might not pay close enough attention to notice.