The Night Spinner is a variant of the new Fire Prism, with a monofilament cannon:
S6, AP-, twin-linked,
5'' blast, artillery(!),
rending,
enemy is left in difficult and dangerous terrain.

It appears to be an anti-infantry weapon.
I'm toying with two (naked) Night Spinners in 1750 pt games.

What do you think? Is it worth taking?

I've been wanting to do this since it appeared in APOC (wasn't aware of the epic one).
It definately plays a different role to the other tanks; their impact is more on restricting movement over multiple turns.
I think they would work well with banshees, reapers, and hawks.

If you're going to take up two HS slots, I guess you'll be leaving the anti tank to WS dragons; which leaves you with troops and FA to deal with those enemy units being held up in "new" dangerous terrain. I assume you'd be wanting to be shooting rather than assaulting-

Maybe the Night Spinner makes big squads of Wraithguard more viable?

Well, in fact, movement restriction is like pinning the enemy in place increases your tactical flexibility.
On top of this, the cannon can do some damage.

mal wrote:I've been wanting to do this since it appeared in APOC (wasn't aware of the epic one).
It definately plays a different role to the other tanks; their impact is more on restricting movement over multiple turns.
I think they would work well with banshees, reapers, and hawks.

If you're going to take up two HS slots, I guess you'll be leaving the anti tank to WS dragons; which leaves you with troops and FA to deal with those enemy units being held up in "new" dangerous terrain. I assume you'd be wanting to be shooting rather than assaulting-

Maybe the Night Spinner makes big squads of Wraithguard more viable?

Yay, it works well with some of the most craptastic units in the codex.

Fire prisms main use is not anti tank so I dont see how it changes that aspect of the lists that much.
Personally I think I will try to incorporate one Spinner in my army which would leave me with 2 prisms and one spinner for HS. One tank to hide and slow the opponent down and then some ranged fire to make the most out of it.

Well, I'm toying with 2 Night Spinners and a squadron of War Walkers, or
1/2 Night Spinner(s) and 2/1 Fire Prism(s) (as tedurur mentioned).

Basically its totally outclassed by the Prism and not worth taking imo. Sure it is an effective anti infantry weapon but their are plenty of things in the Eldar list which can do that, notably in slots which aren't as contested (just take Walkers if you need pure anti-infantry power from you heavy slot). In 5th units are in transports more often than not so yo need to be able to open up tanks. While the Dangerous Terrain side of things is nice, its incredibly unreliable and being S6 AP- means you are unlikely to damage the tank with shooting in the first place (and is totally wasted if you are trying to stop anything AV12+, 1/6 chance of immobilizing it is nice but you waste the actual damage causing part of shooting it).

Their anti infantry power is about the same, probably slightly favouring the Spinner particularly when up against 5+/6+ saves (twin-linked and Rending makes up for the reduced AP + you get the terrain bonus on top) but the Prism as actually a usable anti-tank weapon as well and has the linked shot if you need it.

With Fire Dragons and Bright Lances to take out tanks and Scatters to deal with pretty much everything else, its great having a couple of Prisms which can pitch in to help out whichever side of things is more important. They are also probably the best way that Eldar can deal with units with 2+ saves or mass FNP armies (aka Blood Angels) which show up more often than pure horde armies.

The Spinner lacks this versatility and ability to damage anything more than horde infantry reliably, basically it provides more of the same for Eldar (who already have S6 shooting coming out their ears). If it had AP5/6 and multiple shots it might be useful (even if it changes to 3-4 small blasts rather than a single large blast), as you would have a decent chance of damaging tanks (and hitting multiple tanks with the terrain bonus) and could still beat up infantry.

Well, I never had good luck with dual Fire Prisms, whether the shots were combined or not:
''Oh, here is squad of 8 Blood Claws with jump packs that eradicated my Pathfinders. Let's see if I can eliminate them by a combined prism shot. Okay, let's see, it bounces off even after re-rolling. Hah, 3 got killed.''
Therefore, I'm no longer keen on Prisms. I want to see how the Night Spinners behave.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I never had good luck with dual Fire Prisms, whether the shots were combined or not:
''Oh, here is squad of 8 Blood Claws with jump packs that eradicated my Pathfinders. Let's see if I can eliminate them by a combined prism shot. Okay, let's see, it bounces off even after re-rolling. Hah, 3 got killed.''
Therefore, I'm no longer keen on Prisms. I want to see how the Night Spinners behave.

Why would a night Spinner behave any differently in that aspect??

As Powerguy pointed out, the Prism outclasses the Spinner in most aspects, I still think that there might be room for the spinner for dealing with bikes and other units which can keep up the pace with your skimmers but I have yet to use it. The AP- makes it a bad AT unit even with rending but its not totally useless.

Why would a night Spinner behave any differently in that aspect??

It will not behave much different. But it brings a different element into the game, restricting movement.

It's artillery and can kill stuff. Take it.

Seriously, Barrage weapons are awesome. I used to think they weren't all that hot until I started to take them with my old Iron Warriors army and they rock. The ability to kill stuff that you can't see is an enormous force multiplier that will make your opponent very uncomfortable and open up all kinds of options for you.

The Night Spinner seems to be extra good because, like the Basilisk, it can hurt anything, what with the rending and entanglement rules. That means that unlike the Whirlwind (which is still excellent) it is good against any opponent.

I would take it naked, or maybe with a Shuriken cannon if you have 10 points lying around unused. I would also only take one of them, since one barrage weapon seems to be enough, but if you really like it then try two. Maybe two will fit your playstyle more. I plan on taking one Night Spinner, two Fire Prisms, and then my usual mess of Aspect Warriors in Wave Serpents and Jetbikes.

It seems that the fire prism is a much more versatile weapon for the same points/slot. I cannot see the Night Spinner replacing it in a take-all-comers list.

With the 5th edition meta game tilting towards mechanized lists, dedicated anti infantry units seem to be not worth the points when a multi purpose unit is available. The fire prisms gives you anti infantry with the potential for anti tank. Sure the night spinner might be better at anti infantry but the flexibility of the fire prism wins.

Maybe if the night spinner kept its transport capacity that it had in Apoc it might be worth it since you could stick 5 Dire avengers in there to make it scoring and then it would have a dual role.

I'm going to try one to test out with my dual squadrons of walkers, it will slow them down while the walkers finish them off.

I won't know if they're any good until this friday.

Ill just magnetize the kit and try both out.

Ever see 2 vehicles pin in an Imperial Guard chimera wall? I have. We just played a 3000 point per side Battle mission game and my Eldar Ally had 2 Night Spinners...he was putting about 3-4 chimeras in Dangerous Terrain as well as popping 1 or two a turn since the barrage hits on the side armor...I gained a whole new respect for this tank as its versatility is phenomenal, especially if you compliment it with the right combination of units.

I play Space Wolves and this vehicle will make me think twice about taking my Hammer Unit of 3 Wolf Lords with 15 Fenrisian Wolves...Dangerous Terrain in every phase...yeah, no thanks.

I was planning on adding a Fire Prism to my all-jetbike army. Key word 'was'.

The local meta here is light-to-medium mech, mostly of the AV10-12 range. Since I have nothing in my army that touches the ground, and absolutely live or die by out manouvering the enemy I am very excited by this Night spinner thing.

It's just a shame the model is so ugly. the new Fire Prism is fantastic, the Night Spinner, a kind of insult to the eyes...

The nightspinner is worse than AIDS .... terrible vehicle.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:Ever see 2 vehicles pin in an Imperial Guard chimera wall? I have. We just played a 3000 point per side Battle mission game and my Eldar Ally had 2 Night Spinners...he was putting about 3-4 chimeras in Dangerous Terrain as well as popping 1 or two a turn since the barrage hits on the side armor...I gained a whole new respect for this tank as its versatility is phenomenal, especially if you compliment it with the right combination of units.

This comment is quite helpful showing also the respect of the enemy from this new tank.

kill dem stunties wrote:The nightspinner is worse than AIDS .... terrible vehicle.

Your tactical prowess have convinced me! thank you for that insightful comment...*facepalm*

I /facepalm and /golfclap as well.
Though I don't like the idea of a static vehicle in an Eldar army.

To me it just looks.... un-Eldar-y.

I feel it's nice GW is giving some thought to older codicies, but it's not something I'd throw myself onto.
The double prisms have been effective for me and I use them in more ways then just a firing platform... one is unlikely to get as much utility out of it than the static-back-field-only-support.

Though I don't like the idea of a static vehicle in an Eldar army.

You don't have to be stationary to fire the gun.

I didn't really see why i had to explain myself ... i thought the rules, points cost and foc slot of the vehicle did that well enough for me ....

Its terrible. costs 30-50 pts too much and should be fast attack. As is fire prisms are better in every single scenario.

The Night Spinner is an excellent tank. Highly versatile with redundent damage potential it also succeeds in 2 very important ways that few other Eldar weapons can. First it's range is superior to almost anything else in the Eldar arsenal and second it's indirect firing capabilities make it more survivable.

I have never liked the Fire Prism to much. It is very one dimensional and not very useful vs. a skilled opponent. I have always felt the Prism is a weak crutch and a sign my opponent is not a very good list builder.

ange on a terrible s6 ap- rending pieplate is not that great, as for being more "survivable" because its behind a rock, how does that stop dropping melta again?

Not that i would waste a melta drop squad on such a terrible tank, id just keep plowing on with reinforced rams/dozerblades/not caring about 1/6 of immob and ignore the pieplate that wont ever scratch my vehicles.

An old axiom of 40k list building reads: Anti-troop weapons on tanks and anti-tank weapons on troops. The Spinner won't have to shoot a single tank, the rest of the Eldar army can take care of that.

@Kill dem stunties:
That's a self destructive post.
You say it would go down to melta, but it's not a priority hence not downing it.

Not downing it means you leave it to its own device, which is never a good idea no matter what unit you are talking about.

There is merit to what it can do as the effects are generally indirect.

I feel that the choice between them comes down to personal taste really. They are worth a try I would hazard, but I do like my linked prisms as it's quite unique to 40K.

kill dem stunties wrote:ange on a terrible s6 ap- rending pieplate is not that great, as for being more "survivable" because its behind a rock, how does that stop dropping melta again?

Not that i would waste a melta drop squad on such a terrible tank, id just keep plowing on with reinforced rams/dozerblades/not caring about 1/6 of immob and ignore the pieplate that wont ever scratch my vehicles.

How would a shorter ranged, anti-tank vehicle in plain veiw which has a bad reputation for killing tanks and infantry alike stop dropping melta again?

You also just awnsered your own question, most people arn't going to waste a one use melta unit on an unknown new vheicle with rules which don't look so good.

Also, 1/6 has a good chance in a game that lasts from 5-7 turns. Along with the chances of it hitting, rending, rolling a high number and damaging a landraider/monalith/ other heavy armour value vehicle. S6 is nothing to be sniffed at when it comes with rending.


On a side note; the apoc formation that comes with the night spinner rules looks decent. If your within 36" of your ranger squad/s you can use their BS and have unlimited range (if you need it) along with the combined fire rending on a 5+ instead of on 6's.

Actually, because it's unknown, I'd rather shoot first and ask questions later .

Minor note there wizard12, monolith says "NO YOU" to you and the rending .

I never said that fire prisms were more survivable than night spinners, i just said that being hidden doesnt grant them any more protection should the enemy decide theyre a priority and drop melta on them.

I then went on to say i consider the tank such a laughable threat, i would choose to ignore the nonexistant damage it will inflict, and focus my target priority on the things that can actually hurt me. Though with them taking a nightspinner their list probably has shining spears and warp spiders and vibro cannons etc. lol

As for it being a 1/6, against armies which dont take dozers/reinforced ram type things sure ... but anyone who mechs up in a terrain heavy meta will be running those, to plow through buildings etc, so that 1/6 is is around a 2.7% chance of immobilizing the vehicle ...

Fireprism is better at killing infantry, and when taken in multiples as a competant player will, they are as reliable as a direct bs4 shot.

A Fire prism is not better at killing infantry. It is more common for infantry to be in cover than meched up in 5th edition. A prism will have to get through the 4+ cover save (3+ if they go to ground) and it will miss more often than the Spinner because the spinner is twin-linked. The spinner will have to get through a 3+ armor or 5+ carapace (unless it rends a few times), however the Spinners effects will put the target unit in dangerous terrain which can cause even more damage.




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Why would you only want to immobilise a vehicle with the Spinner? If you do choose to fire it at a vehicle the str 6 gun hits the side armor of the vehicle, armor 10 for a chimera, at -1 to the damage roll for being ap -, but no -1 to the roll if you roll a 6.

I must say k.d.s. the last few lists you posted would suffer heavy casulaties to the Spinner as opposed to the Prism. Tons of gaunts and 20 jump pack marines are 2 of the prime targets this tank does better against then the Prism.

being ap- gives -2 to the damage roll actually ... even if you do roll a 6 and rend it its still ap-

more to edit after i check the mail.

As for my lists, well duh a tyranid army is going to take large losses from pieplates? is this something new?

As for my jumper lists ... theyre deepstriking, so if you want to hit your own units with that sure, bear in mind if i assault you you make a react move and also suffer 1/6 casualties if youre hit by your own marker ... And once in cc it wont matter that vie lost 1/6 to dt, as with 3+ armor and fnp i doubt ill lose any to the shot itself, excepting 1 or 2 rends if the player is lucky. Either way a fireprism would be better negating armor and fnp.

Oh dear, I've sort of failed on my knowleadge of the rules there. But kill dem stunties, I said damage, not wreak. An immoblised vehicle is easy to avoid. A land raider with one sponson blown off can be aproched on a blind spot. Even just stunning something gives you an advantage. I mean, sure, a fire prism is more likely to kill tanks as are alot of other things. But in a game where mobility really matters, the abillity to slow down movement is useful.

I personally think that a combo of a 'prism and a 'spinner could work in tandem to wreck havoc across the field of battle.

I dont see you getting any damage results though, and if you do theyll be glancing hits (-2) and ap- (-1) so almost always be reduced to shaken through extra armor/spirit stones/whatever.

My point is that it doesnt slow down movement, all the various means vehicles have of very cheaply rerolling DT tests means your nightspinner has less than a 3% chance of immobilising the vehicle through the dt test. Let alone a -3 on damage table result if you somehow rend and manage to glance.

Anyway you work it the damage result will be a -3.

I don't have the rules in front of me, but I do beleive ap - makes the weapon only -1 on the damage table and the I do remember the rules say a rending weapon has ap 2 which would give no minus to the damage roll.

Your tactic of deep striking a 10-man assault squad speaks volumes. I won't debate this with you anymore. Just remember the Spinner doesn't want to shoot at tanks, it wants to shoot at infantry. The rest of the Eldar army will get you out of the tanks.

As for it being ap2, reread the rules, thats when rolling to wound, vehicles take glancing/penetrating hits, the rule then goes on to say what rending does to a vehicle.

And theres nothign wrong with 2 drop squads of ras, when youre already sporting 5 av13 and 3 rhino chassis with an av12 stormraven ...

and your deepstrikes will be useless against my IG army with LR Executioner and plasma sponsons and Inq with mystics...does that make the assault marines a completly useless unit comparable to AIDS? No it doesnt, so just drop your totally biased hyperbole.

how will the damage results always be at -3? Mind explaining that one?

not many players sport dozer blades all around the place nor is it even possible for all armies. A skimmer based army will not like to be in difficult terrain nor will a chimera wall ect...

tedurur wrote:
how will the damage results always be at -3? Mind explaining that one?

I think he's just assuming it will always glance, hence the -3.

Against Rhinos it will always pen on a 6 and always glance on a 5. Against vehicles with AV12 side armor it will always pen on a 6, and will never inflict a glancing hit.

Sanctjud wrote:

tedurur wrote:
how will the damage results always be at -3? Mind explaining that one?

I think he's just assuming it will always glance, hence the -3.

Which would go to show his poor understanding of the Spinner

You seem to be confused as to what role you will use this tank in.

If youre using this tank for antitank youre failing, scatter lasers handle av10-11 far better than this pos tank, let alone units actually dedicated to antitank. The whole dangerous terrain test will not be a problem at a 2.7% chance to be effected with rerolling dt tests so common and cheap.

For anti infantry you have far better options than the night spinner, the only time the nightspinner would even seem a valid choice is if you knew beforehand you were facing a mass infantry list with no vehicles and like to list tailor ...

And yes inquisitors are great, especially with executioners, thats how i run my ig.

Too bad later this year that will no longer be an option when allies are phased out, and dropping lists will make a huge resurgence.

kill dem stunties wrote:Too bad later this year that will no longer be an option when allies are phased out, and dropping lists will make a huge resurgence.

AFAIK that is just rumor and wishful thinking at this point. Besides, why plan for a year from now when he's playing now?

I'd hardly say its wishful thinking, rather id say its almost certain theyre removing allies.

Even if allies do remain, i guarantee they wont include mystics that work like they do now, if at all. GW knows that this is very imbalanced, as evinced by the fact its in 99% of all ig armies that are seriously trying to compete.

Just figured I would throw this out there...if you fail a Dangerous Terrain Test you don't get an Armor Save or Feel No Pain as the test ignores armor.

Next on the list...you deep strike in 10 man squads...that's just asking to have you handed a pulpy mess after all is said and done...

And finally, don't forget, every time you move you take a Dangerous Terrain Test...say you fleet a unit, that's 3 chances per model can die...

Oh and one other thing...you can't Turbo boost into or out of Dangerous Terrain so all those units hoping for that cover save (Skimmers, Nob Bikers, Jetseer counsels), no dice... yeah, sucks don't it?

Ok, first, the dangerous terrain marker goes away the first time they move for any reason, no multiple dt tests from move run assault etc.

second, what you just threw out there regarding dangerous terrain ... im pretty sure every single player knows, or at least should know that ...

People keep talking about making a pulpy mess out of the assault marines lol, and sure it can happen, but they're going to be dropping within 3-4" of one of your units, or in the middle of a bunch of tanks, either way im going to make you hit your own units just as often as mine if you shoot that crap weapon at me.

Either way, chances are if i were that scared of that night spinner (im not) a 60 pt deepstriking mm speeder says hello.

And for the last part not really, like you said the night spinner is only really anything worthwhile against nob bikers, jetseers, and those armies will just destroy the spinner before its a problem.

What im curious about is where you see skimmers cant turboboost out of difficult and or dangerous terrain? They just have to take a test if they start or end their movement inside it ... so saves for them ...

Besides the damage that a Night Spinner can eventually cause (or not),
there is also a psychological effect that should not be underestimated in a game:
The opponent has to roll extra dice when it comes to testing for difficult or dangerous terrain.
Nobody wants to move his/her units through dangerous terrain,
the Emperor beware.

And we all know how Deepstriking Speeders will never mishap, always land directly where we want them to exactly on the turn we need them and then will never miss thier one shot and when they always hit their shot they will always destroy the tank they are shooting at...

seriously dude...

Its not just the artillery weapon and its potential.
A fast skimmer for 115 pts is nothing to underestimate,
ramming and tank shocking are still options.

Saturday, I faced a Tau army with a heavy support unit consisting of Fire Warriors firing marker lights at my Eldar tanks.
In turn 2, one Serpent tank shocked this unit and they fled from the board.

Speeder mishaps are quite uncommon, i find it pretty hard to mishap a 3" flying base, mabye you like putting it on top of units and on the edge of the board?

Mishaps are more caused by a bad player than anything.

As for it could miss it could etc etc etc ... That can be said of anything in the game period.

You really seem to have absolutely no actual point. Just baseless nonsense.

Just from a stop and look at it point of view....does anyone else think that it would have made more sense for the spinner to ignore cover saves than to have rending? An ap - weapon somehow does extra armor penetration one time out of six......


As far as the accuracy goes, yes its twin linked, but remember that when it does scatter it goes the full 2d6. Cant subtract the BS of the firing unit.


If it ignored cover I would find it a lot more useful since cover is so common and useful in 5th edition. Making an infantry unit thats in cover count as if its in dangerous terrain the first time it moves might be useful...if the unit was ever going to move out of the cover. Usually infantry thats sitting somewhere in the current game is planning on sitting there the rest of the game, holding an objective or else acting as a fire base.


Sliggoth

As far as the accuracy goes, yes its twin linked, but remember that when it does scatter it goes the full 2d6. Cant subtract the BS of the firing unit.

It has only BS 3, while its pendant, the Fire Prism, has a better BS.


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If it ignored cover I would find it a lot more useful since cover is so common and useful in 5th edition. Making an infantry unit thats in cover count as if its in dangerous terrain the first time it moves might be useful...if the unit was ever going to move out of the cover. Usually infantry thats sitting somewhere in the current game is planning on sitting there the rest of the game, holding an objective or else acting as a fire base.

Ignoring cover could be a pain. Bye bye Rangers, Lootas, and whatnot.

Yes, the fire prism has a better BS, so even tho the spinner is twin linked it isnt much more accurate than the prism.


Yes, ignoring cover is powerful....makes the SM whirlwind useful at times. Would be kind of nice capability to have on an eldar barrage weapon too. And would perhaps have made more sense than giving it rending.


Sliggoth

kill dem stunties wrote:Speeder mishaps are quite uncommon, i find it pretty hard to mishap a 3" flying base, mabye you like putting it on top of units and on the edge of the board?

Mishaps are more caused by a bad player than anything.

As for it could miss it could etc etc etc ... That can be said of anything in the game period.

You really seem to have absolutely no actual point. Just baseless nonsense.

I thought that since it's a vehicle you disregard the base.

Also when one deep strikes you know the risk. Mishaps are a part of life. We can minimize the risk, but it's still there.

And we're not working in a vacuum, if you deep strike that speeder, it may be at the very edge of the board due to its immense range, there may be other big skimmers in the way.

Not sure if the enemy uses deep strikers to take on a Night Spinner.
I guess there are more serious (closer) threats in an Eldar army.
Outflankers are more a threat. Therefore, I'd place the Spinner somewhere near the centre.

Rending Hits are Ap 2. You can get penetrating hits with no minuses on any tank in the game, theoretically. Granted, it won't be great at it, but the possibility is there.

That said, it looks like a very niche weapon, although I'd love to run one or two in an apoc game with some other factions.
In a pure eldar list, you might be able to use it against a manuverable opponent to slow them down.

Does the weapon have to damage for dangerous/difficult terrain to kick in, or is it any squad hit? If it's just landing the template over something, that could be fun.
Edit: With the enemy unit being left in dangerous terrain, this thing will murder any large infantry squads. 1 in 6 models dieing with no armor saves after getting hit will be downright cruel to hordes. This thing will really hurt kan walls with indirect fire.

Does the weapon have to damage for dangerous/difficult terrain to kick in, or is it any squad hit? If it's just landing the template over something, that could be fun.

Every unit hit has to test for dangerous/difficult terrain, no matter if its infantry, tank or whatnot.
That's indeed funny.

Rending hits that roll a 6 to WOUND are AP 2. Unfortunately you don't roll to wound a vehicle so it remains AP -

Well then. Take two, and start raining em down on the opponent's front line. With a large blast, you should be able to touch 2 to 3 targets (vehicles or squads) with one shot. Your opponent will be bogged down, or taking casualties with no armor saves.
Any foot army is going to hate this. Imagine this along with some Vypers. They circle at 36" range, while the spinners lock them down. The vypers focus on transports, while the Nightspinners focus on keeping your opponent stuck. Maybe some Pathfinders and you could get a nice lockdown going
Edit: Hmm, seems you are right, it does say to wound. Well, you only need to hit, apparently. 1/6 chance to immobilize with no other rolling required is still pretty good.

@Irdiumstern:
Yea, but a foot army is not really a good competitive gauge IMO.

A 1/6 chance to immobilze 2 to 3 vehicles a turn isn't half bad either. No need to penetrate armor.


Let's see. Kan Wall orks is fairly competitive, as is foot eldar, not to mention seer council eldar. Nids have no vehicles.

But it's not just good against foot armies. Look at it this way:
Against transports, you have a Str 6 weapon hitting side armor all the time, plus a subsequent 1/6 chance to immobilize. That's enough for Rhinos and Chimeras. That's two chances to keep them away from your lines.


I think the flexibility of laying down a large blast anywhere on the table, and then slowing down the target, can possibly be worth it.

Sliggoth wrote:

As far as the accuracy goes, yes its twin linked, but remember that when it does scatter it goes the full 2d6. Cant subtract the BS of the firing unit.

Why is this so? page 30 of the BRB says barrage weapons only scatter the full 2d6 if they don't have LoS to the target unit. Does night spinner have a special rule or is there a FAQ that changes that? The 72" range is nice too, the eldar I play against typically don't have anything beyond a 36" range, which leaves them at a serious disadvantage when having to advance a turn through Loota range (or heaven forbid stripped cover saves and railguns)

One of the benefits of the nightspinner is that you can fire from behind cover..so no you dont HAVE to be out of LOS in order to fire it. But if you arent hiding behind cover then one of the few reasons to be using the nightspinner is gone.

A 1/6 chance at immobilizing 2 to 3 vehicles a turn would be good, but there arent going to be amny armies that give you a shot at hitting 3 vehicles. Remember that the center hole has to be places over a vehcile, so unless you opponent is cooperating you just arent going to be getting multiple hits.


A spinner is going to do ok against hordes when they arent in cover. But then a fire prism will do well against them too. And against armor there is no comparison. The chance to pin does give the spinner some utiliy, but 5th edition isnt very infantry heavy so it seems like its a weapon out of place.



The last truly weird bit of fluff...the threads can cut through turrets and weapon barrels on vehicles yet the spinner is STILL ap -.

Truly wonderful thinking on someone's part there


Sliggoth

I'd say any mechanized guard will definitely allow multiple hits, as will KFF orks. Space Marines using a rhino rush or razorback spam will probably also be fine.
Most opponents I've seen keep stuff together to allow for mutual support as well as to grant cover to certain units.

I'm amazed at the amount of hatred towards a new unit for no other reason than people can not see it's use.

Yes a list with 3 fire prisms should never drop a single fire prism to go with 2 prisms and 1 spinner, but not every list uses 3 prisms for heavy support.

Some lists have 2 squads of war walkers, or 2 wraithlords. Adding a single prisms to hose lists isn't a very good idea, nor is it necessary especially if it's already stacked with anti tank.

3 Squads of fire dragons + DA for troops all in wave serpents + 2 Wraithlords= A lot of possible bright lances and a lot of fire dragons. A list like that can easily spare 1 force org slot for an anti infantry model like the night spinner.

Nothing else in the eldar codex can slow down enemy units. If a mechanized list already has enough anti tank and needs speed to outmaneuver the enemy then a unit that can slow them down has a place.

I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread, so if what I am about to say has already being said then good-o.

Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Also, when people talk about the movement reducing abilities of the Night spinner it is important to realise that the Fire Prism brings this to the table as well- but in the form of movement denial; for example you don't want to disembark a unit from a transport vehicle if the Fire prism can see you as its focussed beam will tear any units that do so apart and the Fire Prism also forces people to stick to cover more to reduce it's damage potential. The Fire Prism's greater risk forces your opponent to move in different ways already.

Move the night spinner to fast attack and then it becomes a valid choice.

Foldalot wrote:I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread, so if what I am about to say has already being said then good-o.

Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Also, when people talk about the movement reducing abilities of the Night spinner it is important to realise that the Fire Prism brings this to the table as well- but in the form of movement denial; for example you don't want to disembark a unit from a transport vehicle if the Fire prism can see you as its focussed beam will tear any units that do so apart and the Fire Prism also forces people to stick to cover more to reduce it's damage potential. The Fire Prism's greater risk forces your opponent to move in different ways already.

Move the night spinner to fast attack and then it becomes a valid choice.

Eldar don't "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take war walkers with 2 scatter lasers or star cannons.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take a wraithlord without a bright lance.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then 6 wave serpents with TL bright lances, 2 wraithlords with bright lances, & 30 fire dragons are a woefully inadequate amount of anti tank firepower.

I'll most likely give it a try and see how it fares over the course of a few games. If it sucks, well, I can set it next to my Vibro Cannons on the shelf.

But, I guess I go against the grain as I don't like Fire Prisms all that much. For anti tank, I've got Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents and a Wraithlord to cover that lane. While I think War Walkers could be a better buy than this tank, I'll still use it and see what it can do.

Am I disappointed that I can't take a battery of them or that they are a Heavy Support choice? Yeah. But, it's still a neat looking kit that I'd like to pick up.

From the sounds of it, taking one (or more) and actually winning games with it should be a fun challenge.

schadenfreude wrote:I'm amazed at the amount of hatred towards a new unit for no other reason than people can not see it's use.

No, you're not getting it. People hate it because it doesn't have a use. The Eldar already have some of the best Heavy Support choices in the game, the Night Spinner is a useless addition that's hopelessly outclassed by almost all of them. Crunch the numbers, if you want proof. Statistics do not lie.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:I'm amazed at the amount of hatred towards a new unit for no other reason than people can not see it's use.

No, you're not getting it. People hate it because it doesn't have a use. The Eldar already have some of the best Heavy Support choices in the game, the Night Spinner is a useless addition that's hopelessly outclassed by almost all of them. Crunch the numbers, if you want proof. Statistics do not lie.

I wouldn't say that is has no use.
An Eldar army heavily relies on synergy, and a Night Spinner can eventually contribute to the synergy of an Eldar army.
It can slow down the advance of the enemy which eventually increases the tactical flexibility of an Eldar army. If one or two enemy units are slowed down by one turn just by being hit by the Spinner, the Eldar gain time and this is invaluable in a game with only a few turns.

schadenfreude wrote:

Foldalot wrote:I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread, so if what I am about to say has already being said then good-o.

Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Also, when people talk about the movement reducing abilities of the Night spinner it is important to realise that the Fire Prism brings this to the table as well- but in the form of movement denial; for example you don't want to disembark a unit from a transport vehicle if the Fire prism can see you as its focussed beam will tear any units that do so apart and the Fire Prism also forces people to stick to cover more to reduce it's damage potential. The Fire Prism's greater risk forces your opponent to move in different ways already.

Move the night spinner to fast attack and then it becomes a valid choice.

Eldar don't "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take war walkers with 2 scatter lasers or star cannons.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take a wraithlord without a bright lance.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then 6 wave serpents with TL bright lances, 2 wraithlords with bright lances, & 30 fire dragons are a woefully inadequate amount of anti tank firepower.

I offer rational advice and I get obnoxious capslocked retorts; retorts that are also incorrect.

Fundamentally, you missed my point: If Eldar don't take ranged anti tank in their Heavy support, they deprive them selves of their strongest and cheapest long range antitank. Eldar have fantatsic anti infantry in other slots; there is no need to take more in your 3 precious HS slots.

Point by point.
-Firstly, who the hell runs warwalkers with star cannons, welcome to 5th ed cover?? This configuration is invalid.
-War walkers are fantastic ranged antitank (as well as anti infantry): Flanking + EML's/ SL's/ SC's= lots of dead tanks (a hell of a lot more then Night spinners can do). You're point of War walkers not being anti tank is invalid.
-If you field Wraithlords they should always have a Bright lance, don't waste their BS4 on a strength 6 gun half your army will be packing. Wraithlords best and most common configuration (BL+EML) is solid antitank, meaning this point of yours is also invalid.
-30 fire dragons and 6 upgraded Wave serpents. . Even this rediculous attempt to show other slots can fulfill the role of long range AT is hollow and incorrect, 30 fire dragons have short range, a good army need long range antitank fire power; fire dragons aren't even relevant to this discussion (apples and oranges). Wave serpents with 6 brightlances are fantastic- don't get me wrong- but they are hardly strong enough to do all the heavy lifting for an entire army (you're only going to see this many wave serpents in 2500 points+ games, you need more than 6 long range antitank guns at that level) And that makes the fourth invalid claim.

So yeah, in games larger than 1500 points Eldar do infact "NEED" to take some form of anti tank in their heavy support or else they are stuck taking expensive and inefficient options in smaller numbers across other units. Sadly this means their is no room for the Nightspinner in larger games as it brings only more strength 6 shots to an army already saturated in medium range Strength 6 shots. But by all means take the Nightspinner, I hope you have fun, it certainly is an awesome tank; but it simply cannot fulfill the role it is needed to in the Eldar army, given it's current FOC setup.

Foldalot wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Foldalot wrote:I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread, so if what I am about to say has already being said then good-o.

Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Also, when people talk about the movement reducing abilities of the Night spinner it is important to realise that the Fire Prism brings this to the table as well- but in the form of movement denial; for example you don't want to disembark a unit from a transport vehicle if the Fire prism can see you as its focussed beam will tear any units that do so apart and the Fire Prism also forces people to stick to cover more to reduce it's damage potential. The Fire Prism's greater risk forces your opponent to move in different ways already.

Move the night spinner to fast attack and then it becomes a valid choice.

Eldar don't "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take war walkers with 2 scatter lasers or star cannons.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take a wraithlord without a bright lance.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then 6 wave serpents with TL bright lances, 2 wraithlords with bright lances, & 30 fire dragons are a woefully inadequate amount of anti tank firepower.

I offer rational advice and I get obnoxious capslocked retorts; retorts that are also incorrect.

Fundamentally, you missed my point: If Eldar don't take ranged anti tank in their Heavy support, they deprive them selves of their strongest and cheapest long range antitank. Eldar have fantatsic anti infantry in other slots; there is no need to take more in your 3 precious HS slots.

Point by point.
-Firstly, who the hell runs warwalkers with star cannons, welcome to 5th ed cover?? This configuration is invalid.
-War walkers are fantastic ranged antitank (as well as anti infantry): Flanking + EML's/ SL's/ SC's= lots of dead tanks (a hell of a lot more then Night spinners can do). You're point of War walkers not being anti tank is invalid.
-If you field Wraithlords they should always have a Bright lance, don't waste their BS4 on a strength 6 gun half your army will be packing. Wraithlords best and most common configuration (BL+EML) is solid antitank, meaning this point of yours is also invalid.
-30 fire dragons and 6 upgraded Wave serpents. . Even this rediculous attempt to show other slots can fulfill the role of long range AT is hollow and incorrect, 30 fire dragons have short range, a good army need long range antitank fire power; fire dragons aren't even relevant to this discussion (apples and oranges). Wave serpents with 6 brightlances are fantastic- don't get me wrong- but they are hardly strong enough to do all the heavy lifting for an entire army (you're only going to see this many wave serpents in 2500 points+ games, you need more than 6 long range antitank guns at that level) And that makes the fourth invalid claim.

So yeah, in games larger than 1500 points Eldar do infact "NEED" to take some form of anti tank in their heavy support or else they are stuck taking expensive and inefficient options in smaller numbers across other units. Sadly this means their is no room for the Nightspinner in larger games as it brings only more strength 6 shots to an army already saturated in medium range Strength 6 shots. But by all means take the Nightspinner, I hope you have fun, it certainly is an awesome tank; but it simply cannot fulfill the role it is needed to in the Eldar army, given it's current FOC setup.

Eldar need anti tank, but they don't need all 3 heavy support slots. Eldar players who think they absolutely need 3 heavy support slots and their army can't function without all 3 heavy support slots are like chaos players who think they absolutely need 2 lash princes and their army can't function without 2 lash princes. What they really need is to learn how to win games with 2 heavy support slots (or 1 lash prince). It is very much possible, and the simple act of attempting it enough times will strengthen a player's overall game.

The main use of the night spinner isn't in providing STR 6 hits, it's in forcing a unit into difficult & dangerous terrain. As you said an an earlier statement "Welcome to 5th ed cover" you just can't count on killing units in cover anymore. The spinner allows the eldar to slow a dangerous unit that is screened by other units, and then ignore it for a turn focusing fire on targets that are not in cover. Once a unit is hit with the night spinner shooting it with any further firepower only lessons the damage that will come from dangerous terrain tests. The night spinner helps split up enemy forces so that eldar can use superior mobility to focus firepower on isolated units. In many eldar lists the night spinner is a complete waste of points, but in other lists it's well worth the points. Mech Eldar with EML/BL wraithlords is one of those lists that could use the spinner. It's already fast and mobile with plenty of anti tank fire power. The loss of wraith lord #3 won't single handedly break the army, and it's a trade off for a mobility increase. What we are left with is a debate between mobility and firepower. That leaves the question of which is better for the final purchase in an eldar army more mobility or more firepower. The answer depends on the player. Some players can Capitoline on a firepower increase more than a mobility increase, and thus would not benefit much from a nightspinner while other players can fully capitalize on the mobility increase making a night spinner well worth while. It all depends on playstyle and what the eldar player is good at doing.

Sanctjud wrote:@Irdiumstern:
Yea, but a foot army is not really a good competitive gauge IMO.

Kan Wall Orks
Foot Eldar
Tyranids
Hybrid IG (sorta footslogging... no really though. Still the Spinner can wreck havoc on the blob/line units)
Daemons

Those came off the top of my head in less than 5 seconds of thought, and they're all competitive armies. I'd say that these foot based armies merit consideration and are definitely part of the "competitive" theatre.

Maybe it's just me, but I can see the Nightspinner as a vehicle squadron killer. Seeing how whenever the NS hits a unit, the entire unit counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain, even if you don't glance or penetrate the vehicle, and therefore the entire unit of vehicles will have to make a dangerous terrain test. With immobilized results counting as destroyed for squadrons in 5th edition, this will hurt a lot Just so long as the Eldar player tries to kite the enemy around by playing with cover saves. If they want to try to get a good shot, they have to take the risk of being destroyed. With the NS's indirect fire and twin linking this can make the likelihood of being able to take out the NS difficult at best.

Foldalot wrote:
I offer rational advice and I get obnoxious capslocked retorts; retorts that are also incorrect.

Fundamentally, you missed my point: If Eldar don't take ranged anti tank in their Heavy support, they deprive them selves of their strongest and cheapest long range antitank. Eldar have fantatsic anti infantry in other slots; there is no need to take more in your 3 precious HS slots.

Point by point.
-Firstly, who the hell runs warwalkers with star cannons, welcome to 5th ed cover?? This configuration is invalid.
-War walkers are fantastic ranged antitank (as well as anti infantry): Flanking + EML's/ SL's/ SC's= lots of dead tanks (a hell of a lot more then Night spinners can do). You're point of War walkers not being anti tank is invalid.
-If you field Wraithlords they should always have a Bright lance, don't waste their BS4 on a strength 6 gun half your army will be packing. Wraithlords best and most common configuration (BL+EML) is solid antitank, meaning this point of yours is also invalid.
-30 fire dragons and 6 upgraded Wave serpents. . Even this rediculous attempt to show other slots can fulfill the role of long range AT is hollow and incorrect, 30 fire dragons have short range, a good army need long range antitank fire power; fire dragons aren't even relevant to this discussion (apples and oranges). Wave serpents with 6 brightlances are fantastic- don't get me wrong- but they are hardly strong enough to do all the heavy lifting for an entire army (you're only going to see this many wave serpents in 2500 points+ games, you need more than 6 long range antitank guns at that level) And that makes the fourth invalid claim.

So yeah, in games larger than 1500 points Eldar do infact "NEED" to take some form of anti tank in their heavy support or else they are stuck taking expensive and inefficient options in smaller numbers across other units. Sadly this means their is no room for the Nightspinner in larger games as it brings only more strength 6 shots to an army already saturated in medium range Strength 6 shots. But by all means take the Nightspinner, I hope you have fun, it certainly is an awesome tank; but it simply cannot fulfill the role it is needed to in the Eldar army, given it's current FOC setup.

Well you obviously right, if I had 30 fire dragons, mounted in transports which can move 18" (I think) a turn, I am never going to get in firing range of my opponets vehicles. And those 6 anti-tank configured wave serpants are going to do nothing to enemy armour.

I must buy 3 fire prisms just so I have a slither of hope in those higher points games where the majority of armour can be pened by S6 on the rear armour. I must have higher than S8 lance shots to destroy those Av12 vehicles.

And every army is going to have so much armour especially with GW's cheap cheap tanks priced around a mesly £30 a tank.


I honestly don't think people use as much armour as your sugesting.

schadenfreude wrote:

Foldalot wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Foldalot wrote:I can't be bothered reading through this whole thread, so if what I am about to say has already being said then good-o.

Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Also, when people talk about the movement reducing abilities of the Night spinner it is important to realise that the Fire Prism brings this to the table as well- but in the form of movement denial; for example you don't want to disembark a unit from a transport vehicle if the Fire prism can see you as its focussed beam will tear any units that do so apart and the Fire Prism also forces people to stick to cover more to reduce it's damage potential. The Fire Prism's greater risk forces your opponent to move in different ways already.

Move the night spinner to fast attack and then it becomes a valid choice.

Eldar don't "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take war walkers with 2 scatter lasers or star cannons.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then no Eldar list should ever take a wraithlord without a bright lance.

If Eldar "NEED" 3 heavy support choices dedicated to the role of tank hunting then 6 wave serpents with TL bright lances, 2 wraithlords with bright lances, & 30 fire dragons are a woefully inadequate amount of anti tank firepower.

I offer rational advice and I get obnoxious capslocked retorts; retorts that are also incorrect.

Fundamentally, you missed my point: If Eldar don't take ranged anti tank in their Heavy support, they deprive them selves of their strongest and cheapest long range antitank. Eldar have fantatsic anti infantry in other slots; there is no need to take more in your 3 precious HS slots.

Point by point.
-Firstly, who the hell runs warwalkers with star cannons, welcome to 5th ed cover?? This configuration is invalid.
-War walkers are fantastic ranged antitank (as well as anti infantry): Flanking + EML's/ SL's/ SC's= lots of dead tanks (a hell of a lot more then Night spinners can do). You're point of War walkers not being anti tank is invalid.
-If you field Wraithlords they should always have a Bright lance, don't waste their BS4 on a strength 6 gun half your army will be packing. Wraithlords best and most common configuration (BL+EML) is solid antitank, meaning this point of yours is also invalid.
-30 fire dragons and 6 upgraded Wave serpents. . Even this rediculous attempt to show other slots can fulfill the role of long range AT is hollow and incorrect, 30 fire dragons have short range, a good army need long range antitank fire power; fire dragons aren't even relevant to this discussion (apples and oranges). Wave serpents with 6 brightlances are fantastic- don't get me wrong- but they are hardly strong enough to do all the heavy lifting for an entire army (you're only going to see this many wave serpents in 2500 points+ games, you need more than 6 long range antitank guns at that level) And that makes the fourth invalid claim.

So yeah, in games larger than 1500 points Eldar do infact "NEED" to take some form of anti tank in their heavy support or else they are stuck taking expensive and inefficient options in smaller numbers across other units. Sadly this means their is no room for the Nightspinner in larger games as it brings only more strength 6 shots to an army already saturated in medium range Strength 6 shots. But by all means take the Nightspinner, I hope you have fun, it certainly is an awesome tank; but it simply cannot fulfill the role it is needed to in the Eldar army, given it's current FOC setup.

Eldar need anti tank, but they don't need all 3 heavy support slots. Eldar players who think they absolutely need 3 heavy support slots and their army can't function without all 3 heavy support slots are like chaos players who think they absolutely need 2 lash princes and their army can't function without 2 lash princes. What they really need is to learn how to win games with 2 heavy support slots (or 1 lash prince). It is very much possible, and the simple act of attempting it enough times will strengthen a player's overall game.

The main use of the night spinner isn't in providing STR 6 hits, it's in forcing a unit into difficult & dangerous terrain. As you said an an earlier statement "Welcome to 5th ed cover" you just can't count on killing units in cover anymore. The spinner allows the eldar to slow a dangerous unit that is screened by other units, and then ignore it for a turn focusing fire on targets that are not in cover. Once a unit is hit with the night spinner shooting it with any further firepower only lessons the damage that will come from dangerous terrain tests. The night spinner helps split up enemy forces so that eldar can use superior mobility to focus firepower on isolated units. In many eldar lists the night spinner is a complete waste of points, but in other lists it's well worth the points. Mech Eldar with EML/BL wraithlords is one of those lists that could use the spinner. It's already fast and mobile with plenty of anti tank fire power. The loss of wraith lord #3 won't single handedly break the army, and it's a trade off for a mobility increase. What we are left with is a debate between mobility and firepower. That leaves the question of which is better for the final purchase in an eldar army more mobility or more firepower. The answer depends on the player. Some players can Capitoline on a firepower increase more than a mobility increase, and thus would not benefit much from a nightspinner while other players can fully capitalize on the mobility increase making a night spinner well worth while. It all depends on playstyle and what the eldar player is good at doing.

You raise a number of good points, but I still don't think the added utility the Nightspinner brings against footslogging armies compensates for the loss of versatility and killing power in the Fire prism, and given they both take up the same slot its essentially one or the other. We have both stated our views on the matter quite clearly now; and I can see your arguements and indeed the reasoning behind them, but in my mind it comes down to the fact the Nightspinner is either redundant or vulnerable- as well as wasting an very cheap antitank slot- in almost any eldar list. Either:

1. You run Mechdar--> You have Fire dragons and DA's in waveserpents and Falncons supported by Vypers/ bikes, and maybe a couple of Fire Prims. Replacing any of your falcons or fire prisms means that you lose a sizable amount of your antitank (and gain no noticable anti infatry power)and gain some movement control, but sadly this movement control is redundant in a list already loaded to the gills with fast skimmers, so the nightspinner doesn't really fit in such a list.

2. You run Footdar, it is likely that you are taking either Wraithlords or warwalkers for your Heavy Support, lets assume for simplicity (and consistency with your example) that you have three anti tank Wraithlords (BL+EML), now imagine you sacrfice 1 wraithlord for a nightspinner. The upside of this is you gain some movement control in a list that is not as mobile as it's mounted equivelant, you also get a bit more anti infantry but lose some very powerful antitank. The big downside, aside from taking away one of your few antitank units away, is that the nightspinner will be the only tank in your army and will cop every single antitank weapon that can see it (Yes, you can hide behind some solid terrain if your lucky enough to have some in your deployment zone but deepstrikers/ mounted melta guns will be big risks.)

3. You run Semi Mech/ Hybrid. There are too many regular variations of semimech out there as to objectively analyse; but as I have already highlighted- ad nauseum- you will always lose anti tank power and as semi mech armies typically only have a handful of long range AT units this loss will be felt even more keenly than armies that are full mech.

@Wizard12 Let me reiterate for your benefit.
-Melta Guns don't kill backfield enemy tanks turn one and will only get to them turn two if they aren't screened, and thats only if your tanks are moving fast (that means no brightlance shots from that tank) and is assuming your own tanks aren't shot out from underneath you.
-6 strength 8 lance shots at 2500 is not enough to even tickle a mech army, especially when they are mounted on tanks that will be moving fast to transport the unit inside of them. I'm afraid it is you who is misinformed in just how much mech is out there- go look at the 'Ard Boyz games if you want to see just how much mech your army will have to be able to deal with. (As I said 6 waveserpents will only really be seen in games of 2.5k+ points, therefore the comparison is logical).

Fire prisms' aren't the be all and end all of anti tank. There are 4 solid anti tank choices in the heavy support slot. Pick one. All of them are better choices than the Nightspinner in certain armies.
Also, Eldar tanks can move 24" a turn, which goes up to 36" in one turn if they have star engines. This is the only reason your point is even semi-logical. If you were in a 12 or 18" move vehicle your melta would be doomed. Also you seem to think that your Nightspinner will be hitting against rear armour? Go read the rules.

1. You run Mechdar--> You have Fire dragons and DA's in waveserpents and Falncons supported by Vypers/ bikes, and maybe a couple of Fire Prims. Replacing any of your falcons or fire prisms means that you lose a sizable amount of your antitank (and gain no noticable anti infatry power)and gain some movement control, but sadly this movement control is redundant in a list already loaded to the gills with fast skimmers, so the nightspinner doesn't really fit in such a list.

Well, Falcons lost an edge in the 5th ed. They are now at the bottom line when compared with Serpents and Prisms. Moreover, Vypers are just there as point fillers.
I think that a correctly built mech Eldar army makes use of two Fire Prisms these days. This would leave you with one free HS slot. The Night Spinner gives some versatility to the army for the reasons discussed above.
I'm going to buy one next week...

While I agree that Falcons aren't as indestructible as they were in 4th edition, I've still found utility with mine with the EML with Pulse Laser. Combined with Guide, it's putting out 3 S8 shots with 48" range. Combined with utilizing cover/vehicle shielding, Fortune makes it fairly resilient. Is it the ultimate, must have vehicle in an Eldar army? Not in 5th edition. But, I like it and still get use out of one or two.

Granted, I'll get a Night Spinner as it looks cool and I like the challenge of winning with less than optimal armies. However, I don't think anyone is really arguing that the Nightspinner is such a great buy for an army. Rather, folks are trying to figure out ways to make it work as it really does compete with already very useful Heavy Support choices.

Falcons lost an edge certainly, but they are still just as good if not better than Serpents. You have more firepower and better survivability, you can avoid the bulk of melta fire by hanging back and using it to capture backfield objectives with DAVU. Assuming my first two HS slots are Prisms (usually the case) I would far rather take either War Walkers (mass S6 shooting, mostly for anti-infantry but often more helpful than the Spinner for anti-tank purposes as well), another Prism (redundancy is good) or a Falcon (plenty of firepower and a pain in the ass to kill) than add a Night Spinner to give me more anti-infantry firepower I don't really need.

As mentioned Eldar have no issues with dropping 2-3 tanks if they can get in close due to Fire Dragons, they just usually won't get much more than that because they get flattened asap once outside the transports. The issue is that the number of tanks in a mech army (and everyone is moving towards mech or semi-mech) is conservatively going to be 7+ armoured targets in anything over 1750pts, you have to be able to drop them from range and while plenty of Bright Lances are going to help, they won't be enough most of the time, you still need as much help as you can get to pop armour.

Calling the Night Spinner versatile is a bit of a stretch, its an anti-infantry tank with a very unreliable/situational anti tank ability. Compared to the Prism, which has good anti tank ability, good heavy infantry (Terminators etc) and decent light infantry abilities you certainly can't call it versatile, the Prism is much better.

Vypers sure as hell aren't points filler, they are the best way for Mechdar to get bulk S6 shooting as all your HS slots are filled with Prisms or Falcons already so you can't add War Walkers (they don't really fit in any case because they are slower). They also provide a much more reliable form of movement control than the Spinner by moving out in front of the rest of your army and physically blocking movement towards your other vehicles.

Powerguy wrote:Falcons lost an edge certainly, but they are still just as good if not better than Serpents. You have more firepower and better survivability, you can avoid the bulk of melta fire by hanging back and using it to capture backfield objectives with DAVU. Assuming my first two HS slots are Prisms (usually the case) I would far rather take either War Walkers (mass S6 shooting, mostly for anti-infantry but often more helpful than the Spinner for anti-tank purposes as well), another Prism (redundancy is good) or a Falcon (plenty of firepower and a pain in the ass to kill) than add a Night Spinner to give me more anti-infantry firepower I don't really need.

As mentioned Eldar have no issues with dropping 2-3 tanks if they can get in close due to Fire Dragons, they just usually won't get much more than that because they get flattened asap once outside the transports. The issue is that the number of tanks in a mech army (and everyone is moving towards mech or semi-mech) is conservatively going to be 7+ armoured targets in anything over 1750pts, you have to be able to drop them from range and while plenty of Bright Lances are going to help, they won't be enough most of the time, you still need as much help as you can get to pop armour.

Calling the Night Spinner versatile is a bit of a stretch, its an anti-infantry tank with a very unreliable/situational anti tank ability. Compared to the Prism, which has good anti tank ability, good heavy infantry (Terminators etc) and decent light infantry abilities you certainly can't call it versatile, the Prism is much better.

Vypers sure as hell aren't points filler, they are the best way for Mechdar to get bulk S6 shooting as all your HS slots are filled with Prisms or Falcons already so you can't add War Walkers (they don't really fit in any case because they are slower). They also provide a much more reliable form of movement control than the Spinner by moving out in front of the rest of your army and physically blocking movement towards your other vehicles.

Right on the money, I 110% agree. This post sums up exactly why Nightshields are not a replacement for Eldar's current heavy support choices.

The_Malcontent wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I can see the Nightspinner as a vehicle squadron killer. Seeing how whenever the NS hits a unit, the entire unit counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain, even if you don't glance or penetrate the vehicle, and therefore the entire unit of vehicles will have to make a dangerous terrain test. With immobilized results counting as destroyed for squadrons in 5th edition, this will hurt a lot Just so long as the Eldar player tries to kite the enemy around by playing with cover saves. If they want to try to get a good shot, they have to take the risk of being destroyed. With the NS's indirect fire and twin linking this can make the likelihood of being able to take out the NS difficult at best.

That is downright evil. Hit a 3 vehicle squadron and you have a 1/2 chance of killing a tank. Leman Russ squadrons are going to hate this

Irdiumstern wrote:

The_Malcontent wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I can see the Nightspinner as a vehicle squadron killer. Seeing how whenever the NS hits a unit, the entire unit counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain, even if you don't glance or penetrate the vehicle, and therefore the entire unit of vehicles will have to make a dangerous terrain test. With immobilized results counting as destroyed for squadrons in 5th edition, this will hurt a lot Just so long as the Eldar player tries to kite the enemy around by playing with cover saves. If they want to try to get a good shot, they have to take the risk of being destroyed. With the NS's indirect fire and twin linking this can make the likelihood of being able to take out the NS difficult at best.

That is downright evil. Hit a 3 vehicle squadron and you have a 1/2 chance of killing a tank. Leman Russ squadrons are going to hate this

This 1/2 chance requires to fail the dangerous terrain test.

I would like to promote the idea that the Nightspinner is utter bunk and should never be taken, ever. Anything anyone has ever said bad about it is absolutely right, no matter what they said. I would hope everyone who plays 40K everywhere would read this thread and beleive all the naysayers about the Nightspinner because frankly I would not like to play against one or two in a game. I know the good players will overlook the theory hammer and bring the Spinner of Death to the table, but maybe enough midling players will leave it at home.

DarthDiggler wrote:I would like to promote the idea that the Nightspinner is utter bunk and should never be taken, ever. Anything anyone has ever said bad about it is absolutely right, no matter what they said. I would hope everyone who plays 40K everywhere would read this thread and beleive all the naysayers about the Nightspinner because frankly I would not like to play against one or two in a game. I know the good players will overlook the theory hammer and bring the Spinner of Death to the table, but maybe enough midling players will leave it at home.

Really depends on the army, doesn't it?

Vehicle armies that move are going to hate this one. 1/6 chance to have your vehicle made a sitting duck isn't fun. Sure, the vehicle is in most cases not destroyed utterly, but a Mechdar force, for instance, will hurt from this one.
Foot armies are absolutely crippled. Even if you survive the shot, you get your movement cut and risk losing extra models later.
The only armies which aren't really affected in any huge way are the vehicle armies which sit still, and there aren't a lot of them.

In either case, I don't think people will fit the Nightspinner with too many upgrades, making them relatively low points investments. The only real problem here is that the Troop and Fast Attack choices Eldar have are unattractive - a large part due to an outdated codex. If the 150 points extra a War Walker squadron cost could be spent in Fast Attack without having a feeling you were making a bad trade off, then this particular choice could be a budget-harasser tank.
Eldar lists aren't really built as Mech or foot as such, it's more a case of Minimize troop, ignore fast attack, maximize either elite or heavy support or both.

P.S. I can't really see how 45 points plus a weapon on an OT AV 10/10/10 model is points effective. They're a much better target for drop troops than Nightspinners are.

DarthDiggler wrote:I would like to promote the idea that the Nightspinner is utter bunk and should never be taken, ever. Anything anyone has ever said bad about it is absolutely right, no matter what they said. I would hope everyone who plays 40K everywhere would read this thread and beleive all the naysayers about the Nightspinner because frankly I would not like to play against one or two in a game. I know the good players will overlook the theory hammer and bring the Spinner of Death to the table, but maybe enough midling players will leave it at home.

Care to enlighten us as to why the Nightspinner is good exactly? Just implying that you're a good player and I can therefore see it's value, and the only reason us plebs can't see it's value is because we are bad players- whether you are correct about our playing level or not- breeds a really deconstructive atmosphere. It's like the Emperors Clothes story, soon some people will be espousing the virtues of the Nightspinner just to try to appear to have a grasp on it's tactical power. Not to mention it adds nothing to the units evaluation.

Now, if you could tell us why exactly the Nightspinner is such a great vehicle I would love to hear it- I would like to think it is a valid choice- but I can't justify fielding it to myself.

Foldalot, please read the thread.
Night Spinners are not useless.
However, there is no consense about this.

Foldalot wrote:Care to enlighten us as to why the Nightspinner is good exactly?

Nope.

wuestenfux wrote:Foldalot, please read the thread.
Night Spinners are not useless.
However, there is no consense about this.

Ok, I will reread the thread for a second time...doubt much has changed since I last read it.
I am not saying Nightspinners are bad, I am just saying they are (IMHO ofcourse) not as good as other choices.
However, I would love to see a strong arguement otherwise. I was honestly hoping Darthdiggler would sway my mind but that doesn't seem likely to happen

Bought mine today. It seems like a fun unit to include (fun doesn't necessarily outlaw competitive). The range and dangerous terrain are the main benefits.

Most people seem to be saying "oh no, dangerous terrain, how terrible" in that nice sarcastic tone of text. However, this is more of a problem when it is knocking off a few extra terminators. In addition it provides massed (to an extent) S6 shots against infantry (by this I mean you will get a good number of hits, especially against infantry heavy enemies, and come on, not everyone always spreads their infantry to the 2" limit. 2 dual scatter laser war walkers should get about 8 hits, which is probably, in my experience with large blasts, about 3 more than you'll get with the spinner. Not a big difference against infantry, especially if you account for rending and the range boost).

I'm going to see what I can do with it, and probably get in some test games this week(end).

I think running them them in pairs will be the ticket. I am going to run mine with war walkers as my third heavy. I have other units for anti tank. To be honest, the armies that give me the most trouble are the ones that massively outnumber me. IG and Orks are the toughest. With IG, hits on the blob squad will get so many guys that even with cover they will quickly be reduced. Orks will be even better since they have to move to be effective. A 30 boy squad will lose 5 or 6 on the blast and then when they move another 5 or 6 by the numbers minimum. Night Spinners allow you to shoot them twice. It's like throwing your killer assault unit into a larger unit to hurt during your turn and then theirs... Clip 2 or 3 of those boys squads and you are really going to hurt them over a coulple of turns of them moving around.

I plan to get some test games in with them, pretty soon. I'll probably run 2 prisms, and one Night spinner. I never run 3 prisms, so this won't be that big of a change, just a little point shuffling.

Foldalot wrote:Eldar armies need their heavy support choices to provide their long range anti tank. The Night Spinner is not as good as a Falcon/ Fire prism or even a Wraithlord at killing tanks so by taking a Night Spinner you hurt a really important part of your army that can't be replaced well by other slots.

Fundamentally, you missed my point: If Eldar don't take ranged anti tank in their Heavy support, they deprive them selves of their strongest and cheapest long range antitank. Eldar have fantatsic anti infantry in other slots; there is no need to take more in your 3 precious HS slots.

So yeah, in games larger than 1500 points Eldar do infact "NEED" to take some form of anti tank in their heavy support or else they are stuck taking expensive and inefficient options in smaller numbers across other units. Sadly this means their is no room for the Nightspinner in larger games as it brings only more strength 6 shots to an army already saturated in medium range Strength 6 shots. But by all means take the Nightspinner, I hope you have fun, it certainly is an awesome tank; but it simply cannot fulfill the role it is needed to in the Eldar army, given it's current FOC setup.

I've seen eldar armies do just fine with 3 small squads of dragons inside serpents. If you "need" longer ranged firepower (my demons make due without long ranged anti-tank) you can slap lances on your DA serpents. You can even take some vipers with lances as well. I think that there is definatly room to experiment with three night spinners in 1500+ lists. These tanks can fulfill an anti-infantry roll as well as pop tightly packed together transports commonly seen in guard/mech marine/KFF armies.

Three night spinners seems unnecessary. Mainly because you'll have fewer and fewer targets to hit with the template, meaning less ability to use the dangerous terrain effect. Though not bad at killing targets the terrain rule is what really sets it apart. But you will only be able to hit so many targets with it. I'd say 2 would be the most you'd want/need to field, and 1 should be sufficient (apply pressure with wave serpents or falcons with mean occupants to draw away fire if that's your concern).

If you attend a tournament it is likely that some of the stronger lists will be mechanized. Realizing this you must surely see that before your Nightspinner can have any fun snaring infantry you have to get your enemy out of their tin cans first.

Remember for comparison, Fire prisms can bust transport tanks open then kill the infantry that fall out.
Nightspinners wait till the rest of your (diminished) antitank pops transports then hopes that the units that fall out have are either vulnerable to str: 6 ap: - weapons, or in a good position to be snared. Snaring some TH/SS terminators after their Landraider is popped would be a very exciting combo and would be quite game changing, but you have to realise that lots of armies don't rely on one hammer unit, so snaring individual units affects your opponent less; the obvious example here is Mech Guard. They don't care nearly as much if one of their units is snared and snared outside melta/ flamer range, 3 more identical or similar squads will likely be posing similar threats.

Nightspinners will probably work pretty well against a few specific opponents that rely on hammer units (Nob bikers, Thunderwolf cavalry, TH/SS termies, Jetseers) but they are hardly as useful in general as a Fire prism or a Falcon.

I like the part where a Fire Prism opens a transport AND kills the unit inside after it fall out. I wonder how the Fireprism will kill the Guard squad that falls out of it's destroyed tank and hides behind the wreckage? The Nightspinner, on the other hand, can send a barrage large blast template sailing over the wreckage and hammer the enemy scoring unit. The hiding guardsman have a 4+ cover (or 3+ if they go to ground) vs. the fire prism and only a 5+ save vs. the Nightspinner.

Let's look at the most common transport you will see in a tourney, the chimera. A Fire Prism will need 4's to pen a chimera. The Nightspinner will need 5's to pen the chimera and the Spinner will hit the chimera more often than the prism will. But why is the spinner shooting at tanks anyway? Aren't there other weapons in the Eldar codex to do that?

Is the prism the best weapon for the Eldar to open an enemy tank? The biggest transport the Eldar's oppoent can bring to the table is the Land Raider. A prism needs 6's to pen a LR while a brightlance needs a 5. Wouldn't the brightlance be the best anti-tank transport killer at range for the Eldar?

How about at close range? A serpent can drop off 5 Fire Dragons in front of an enemy transport and kill it with 5 meltaguns. The enemy troops will spill out and which weapon will be best to deal with the disembarked troops? A Prism or a Spinner? The troops will most likely be using cover for the shot whether behind the wreck or in the crater. The prism hits and the enemy takes a 4+ cover. The spinner, which hits more often, forces an armor save. The unit is now in dangerous terrain and less likely to make the move to assault the fire dragons who destroyed the tank. Any failed save will produce a pin check (barrage) and either a 5+ or 3+ armor save is taken. Let's see you have the unit in dangerous terrain and needs to make checks to move and assault, they then most likely need to make a pin check which can keep them from moving again. Finally the Spinner just hits more often and the prevelance of cover saves makes the AP difference between the two guns less important.

If you play in a tournament you are more likely to run into a horde list of some sort. In the case of Ork mobs anchored by a KFF, the Prism shot will be like pissing in the wind to the Ork Horde. Remember Eldar don't have a plethora of heavy flamers to stick in every Force Org slot like Guard. The 120+, 4+ cover save Orks will laugh off the prism shot while the Spinner shot will not only slow the horde down, but inflict more damage than the Prism ever could.

So we are to believe the Eldar NEED another anti-tank template when brightlances and fusion guns do a better job and with the Eldar's lack of cover save denying templates they can easily choose to forgo a superior weapon to deal with the weakness of the Eldar codex.

Actually I'd venture that nightspinners will be poor against Thunderwolves and TH/SS termies for the following reasons:
1. Low model count. You won't do much damage to these units either with the blast or with the dangerous terrain tests.
2. 3+ invulnerable save. You do still get this against dangerous terrain, which further decreases casualty count.

Yes some of the stronger builds will be mech lists, but usually these will be mech guard and mech marines. For the former long range fire (pulse lasers and TL EMLs for my army) can hit the chimeras, and the spinner can get some good damage on the guardsmen (between pinning and a likely following morale check they may very well be shut down for at least a turn). Against the latter, marine armies tend to be short range. Again S8 fire to knock out their rhinos and the spinner can slow the advance of the short ranged marines.

Foldalot wrote:If you attend a tournament it is likely that some of the stronger lists will be mechanized.

Why because full mech lists have won much of anything nationwide? According to the results posted on Dakka fully Mech lists have not won much of anything. Are Space Wolves a common site on the top table? How's the Prism going to do against 6 long fangs in cover? 6 Long Fangs in cover sound like a common unit on the top tables. Let's say the Prism and Spinner both shoot at 6 long fangs in cover. Let's throw out the fact the Spinner will hit on target more often and say they both hit 6 long fangs. The prism will kill, on average, 3 fangs and force a morale check. The Spinner will kill, on average, 2 fangs, cause a pin check and then a morale check. Who is doing better against the Long Fangs? Did you know the Spinner doesn't need LOS to those 5 missiles to get the job done?

Ail-Shan wrote:Actually I'd venture that nightspinners will be poor against Thunderwolves and TH/SS termies for the following reasons:
1. Low model count. You won't do much damage to these units either with the blast or with the dangerous terrain tests.
2. 3+ invulnerable save. You do still get this against dangerous terrain, which further decreases casualty count.

Yes some of the stronger builds will be mech lists, but usually these will be mech guard and mech marines. For the former long range fire (pulse lasers and TL EMLs for my army) can hit the chimeras, and the spinner can get some good damage on the guardsmen (between pinning and a likely following morale check they may very well be shut down for at least a turn). Against the latter, marine armies tend to be short range. Again S8 fire to knock out their rhinos and the spinner can slow the advance of the short ranged marines.

I disagree with the assumption that forcing dangerous terrain tests doesn't work. When nob bikers were all the rage I would lash them into terrain to slow them and force them to take those dangerous terrain tests. Against units like that every wound you can slap on them is help for knocking them down.

I think a mechdar army that trades the shuri-cannons for lances on the serpents could work well with three spinners in it's backfield.

The Nightspinner is great against those big expensive units because it slows them down, the kills it might get are just the cherry on top. It can really screw with your opponents movement if they have a limited number of important units.

@Darthdiggler
Thanks for the constructive analysis, it's actually all that I wanted to read, and I am genuinely pleased that you did respond.
Doesn't mean I agree on all of your points however.

I would prefer not to bicker about the most common armies that are being played, but I was just highlighting that you need to plan for both horde and mech armies and the NIght spinner is not ideally suited to face mechanized armies (I did not highlight this for your benefit). And yes I realize that Fire prism should not be shot individually at Land raiders, and- remarkably- I do use fusion guns and brightlances to kill landraiders.

Fundamentally my problem with he nightspinner is that it weakens your antitank- maybe not your anti AV 14- but nonetheless the loss is apparent. That's all I'm really saying. As the points value of games increases, the enemy bring more tanks and you need to counter with more antitank, and IMO this squeezes the Night spinner out of contention when compared to other choices; I prefer Falcons but Fire prism is a more direct comparison for talking about the NIghtspinner.

What type of Eldar armies would you feel benefit most from the nightspinner, and at what points levels?

I think the Spinner would work well with the close range shooting of most Eldar units. So many of them, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, even Fire Dragons all have deadly close range shooting. The problem comes when there are two small enemy units or one big unit that survives the shots and assaults the T3 Eldar models the next turn. The Spinner will slow that assault down and in some cases make it fail.

I like the Spinner on it's own for dealy with enemy units hiding out of LOS from the Eldar. My foot lists have a long way to go to dig someone out of a spot I can't see them in. The Spinner solves that problem.

DarthDiggler wrote:I think the Spinner would work well with the close range shooting of most Eldar units. So many of them, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, even Fire Dragons all have deadly close range shooting. The problem comes when there are two small enemy units or one big unit that survives the shots and assaults the T3 Eldar models the next turn. The Spinner will slow that assault down and in some cases make it fail.

That's a good point. However, if the template scatters your own units might be victims of the monofilament cannons.

Just a quick question...what is the range on the night spinner's weapon? I'm putting a prism together and I'm just curious

Gorechild wrote:Just a quick question...what is the range on the night spinner's weapon? I'm putting a prism together and I'm just curious

The range is 72" and its a barrage weapon.

Brilliant thanks wuestenfux. I will go ahead with my plan of magnetizing the weapons then could be intresting to give a go!

Not sure if magnetizing works here very well.
I'll buy one Spinner (two in toto) by tomorrow.