Guitardian wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Just a note about double standards. Portland,OR, 2004, pioneer square (big city square right smack in the center of downtown) my friends and I were playing guitar and singing folk music - not for change - just to pass the time on a nice sunny day. We were told by a cop that we had to stop because it might be bothering some people. I didn't notice anyone bothered, many just hanging around on the steps seemed to me to be enjoying it, if not indifferent as they fed the pidgeons or ate their lunch or whatever.

Shortly later a preacher came out with his big booming voice and proceeded to insult gay people, fornicators, sinneers, etc and was far louder than we were being and he got the whole place irritated (Portland is a very progressive town) but he actually got a police escourt hovering nearby to make sure nobody was infringing on his free speech or accosting him for being a public jerk.

Double standard yet?

Or maybe the double standard is you bitching about free speech in the USA when you aren't even a citizen of the USA, yet sucked off the US taxpayer and seem to nothing but bitch about this country. Dear god just leave already.

UM EXCUSE ME??!! I pay taxes like everyone else, but I don't take handouts, and I can't vote all I can do is be vocal. Get your facts straight sir. I cannot leave as I am fully integrated into United Statesian culture and have all my stuff here which would take a year's salary to 'just move'. Maybe you own a private jet or something I can borrow? Even if I could move my entire life accross the pond I would be considered a foreigner if I went back 'home' because of my accent, my lack of local culture. It's not as if it was my decision I was a little kid when I got brought over here.

You are supposed to be a mod. You should know better. Take your personal jabs and PM them to me if you want. If I recall you started this flame-bait thing in another thread. This is the last time I address one of your volatile posts 'mod': go back to your own country too, you don't seem like a native american to me. If I recall you locked that thread, only to have it reopened by a wiser man than yourself who labeled you a grouchy old man and to not pay attention to your rubbish. There, I've said it in public, now can we get back to talking about if the law has a double standard when it comes to religious/irreligious public nuissances?

When I speak as a Mod I note that, so thats not relevant. I am speaking as a US citizen.
I don't care if you're supposedly paying taxes. I don't care if you would be considered a foreigner because of your accent. Sell your stuff. All you do is bitch about the US and have sucked off of us during your homeless phase. Quit your bitching or get out. If you don't intend to be a citizen then get out. I know about 20MM including by next door neighbor and neighbor across the street who would love the chance to get on the train to being a citizen. They work hard and don't bitch about evil America oppressing "their" freedom of speech.

@Cannerus
Thank you for being a voice of reason. I appologize if my statements are harsh or offensive (at least, other than when attacked, they are on topic... unlike the attack), but this is an offensive aggressive subject to both sides discussing it, and 'leave mah cuntry' (or however he worded it) is not particularly eloquent either (and he's in charge). I gotta defend my views too. I shall try to tone it down in the interest of peace.

Again appologies if I am highly biased and uncouth sometimes, that's just me. Thanks for pointing it out though.

@Frazz: what part of PERMANENT resident does not mean PERMANENT?

edit:
what exactly did I 'suck off you during my homeless phase'? If I recall I worked on roofs and remodelling for cash so I wouldn't be a leech and always had my own money on me. I don't see how that hurt you or any other citizen.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Frazz, I'm not going to comment though I'm guessing you were a little flustered and I'm sure you can defend or explain yourself if you think it's worth the energy or not.

Sure, its a simple thing. If you're in my country don't bitch about MY country. There's a long line of very good people who would like to be citizens. I have known many. They've literally crossed thousands of miles to get here to work crappy jobs and support their families. They are the the heart of the American spirit. If nothing else their children will be Americans, and I am hopeful they will be to.


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Guitardian wrote:@Cannerus
Thank you for being a voice of reason. I appologize if my statements are harsh or offensive (at least, other than when attacked, they are on topic... unlike the attack), but this is an offensive aggressive subject to both sides discussing it, and 'leave mah cuntry' (or however he worded it) is not particularly eloquent either (and he's in charge). I gotta defend my views too. I shall try to tone it down in the interest of peace.

Again appologies if I am highly biased and uncouth sometimes, that's just me. Thanks for pointing it out though.

@Frazz: what part of PERMANENT resident does not mean PERMANENT?

If you bitched and I could it would be immediately impermanent.

You must be channelling -- well, I don't know who -- but you are usually dead against Mexicans and strongly for Freedom Of Speech (within sensible limits).

Disagreeing with certain government policies does not mean disrespect for what you call the 'spirit of America'. Actually, bitching about the government when you think that the government is wrong IS one of the founding ideals that built this country, set up concepts like three-branch checks and balances, allowed for 'appeals' in court systems, and (attempts to) keep corruption, police brutality, religious persecution and so on in check. It isn't YOUR country it is OUR country. I live here too, and respect what is respectable about it and cry out against what I feel is needing to be changed about it. That isn't patriotic? I dunno what American Revolution you were taught but my version had something to do with taking the people's outcry and deciding to do something about it when the outcry finaly got loud enough. Nowadays we don't brandish muskets like you guys did in your day, we use internets, news broadcasts, public debates, and yes, "free speech" to align our army rank and file, not in a physical gun-totin' way but in a "rethink the laws and do so through the governmental institutions set up precisely for that purpose" kind of way.

Frazzled still brandishes a musket. Or a Garand M1 at least.

Ugh. You just called it a Garand M1. The sacrilege. It's an M1 Garand. Close but no cigar.

Frazzled wrote:
Or maybe the double standard is you bitching about free speech in the USA when you aren't even a citizen of the USA, yet sucked off the US taxpayer and seem to nothing but bitch about this country. Dear god just leave already.

People on extended visas, and permanent residents, pay full taxes. Shut up you ignorant xenophobe.

Guitardian wrote:Disagreeing with certain government policies does not mean disrespect for what you call the 'spirit of America'. Actually, bitching about the government when you think that the government is wrong IS one of the founding ideals that built this country, set up concepts like three-branch checks and balances, allowed for 'appeals' in court systems, and (attempts to) keep corruption, police brutality, religious persecution and so on in check. It isn't YOUR country it is OUR country. I live here too, and respect what is respectable about it and cry out against what I feel is needing to be changed about it. That isn't patriotic? I dunno what American Revolution you were taught but my version had something to do with taking the people's outcry and deciding to do something about it when the outcry finaly got loud enough. Nowadays we don't brandish muskets like you guys did in your day, we use internets, news broadcasts, public debates, and yes, "free speech" to align our army rank and file, not in a physical gun-totin' way but in a "rethink the laws and do so through the governmental institutions set up precisely for that purpose" kind of way.

I think we're just going to have to disagree on that one.


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Kilkrazy wrote:You must be channelling -- well, I don't know who -- but you are usually dead against Mexicans and strongly for Freedom Of Speech (within sensible limits).

Common misperception. Like most Americans I am for control of the borders and against crime. I think illegals that came her from Latin America and want to be citizens are exactly what we need to reinvigorate the corporate bloodstream of America.


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Fateweaver wrote:Ugh. You just called it a Garand M1. The sacrilege. It's an M1 Garand. Close but no cigar.

I do have an M1 actually...

Frazzled wrote:Like most Americans I am for control of the borders and against crime. I think illegals that came her from Latin America and want to be citizens are exactly what we need to reinvigorate the corporate bloodstream of America.

I think most rational people would want border and crime security of some sort, for one reason or another. The problem is that we have a huge border with a country to which their standard of living is far lower and is a major source of cheap labor that underpins some of the America economy (not all of it, but does constitute something). The cost to control this immigration problem is not monetary; it is also political and social capital. America would have to dig deep into its pockets in order to secure our border. We either have to do it or not, for the consequences of either are far-reaching and game changing.

To you Frazzled I agree that in the context of supporting illegal immigrants who want to truly become American citizens, I would want that too. For people to come all this way and work hard and want to be American citizens is something I believe also underpins our society.

My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

"I am just going to start this chain saw and swing it while walking forward. If you get in the way then thats your fault..."

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

That sounds like a viable, legal strategy to pissing random people off. Pick a bs cause; block someone's driveway (or rather the public space around their drive way).

Frazzled wrote:
I don't care if you're supposedly paying taxes. I don't care if you would be considered a foreigner because of your accent. Sell your stuff. All you do is bitch about the US and have sucked off of us during your homeless phase.

If he paid taxes, then he didn't 'suck off' ( ) anything. Not anymore than any homeless citizen.

This is what happens when you reject pertinent information. You look like you're incompetent.

What is this thread about now? Hmm...

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

Protesters can be just as insensitive as the next lot. How long was she blocked from getting into her house? There are usually permits backing up any protest that is blocking/using public space, but it still sucks that there was no precautions for allowing people to enter their houses. I am not entirely sure that being inside your house with a group of protesters screaming would be all that nice, but each to their own.

dogma wrote:This is what happens when you reject pertinent information. You look like you're incompetent.

I disagree. Sometimes rejecting pertinent information makes you seem as if you don't care.

Fundamentally disregarding facts is also a time honored tradition of pundits who regularly check with the media for their information. Now if they go to Fox, they get everything they need to know to stop the Anti-Christs know as liberals. If you go get your info from CNN, you are then equipped to take on the war-mongering Tree of Life conservatives.

Also getting information from movies is also a great way to reject basic information about a subject, as the media distills the argument into easy to chew bits of poopy.

Opinions about religion are like asses. Everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs is the best.

I mean mother of god, religious arguments are terrible. Neither side has any proof whatsoever, be it a scientific theory, a book written 2000 years ago, or whatever.

Enjoy life, religion isn't important.

WarOne wrote:
I disagree. Sometimes rejecting pertinent information makes you seem as if you don't care.

Fundamentally disregarding facts is also a time honored tradition of pundits who regularly check with the media for their information. Now if they go to Fox, they get everything they need to know to stop the Anti-Christs know as liberals. If you go get your info from MSNBC, you are then equipped to take on the war-mongering Tree of Life conservatives.

Also getting information from movies is also a great way to reject basic information about a subject, as the media distills the argument into easy to chew bits of poopy.

Fixed, CNN isn't quite there yet. Give it time.

But yeah, you're correct.

Soladrin wrote:

chub wrote:

Albatross wrote:Free speech is a myth anyway,

I second that, in cases like this I am always reminded of Know your rights by the The Clash in the middle there is a line that goes "You have the right to free speech, as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it" Says it all really

I agree, I think free speech is BS if used for sowing hatred.

There is a difference between believing and saying that homosexual acts are sins and hating homosexuals.
Just because you believe someone does something wrong doesn't mean you hate them.
Jesus himself dined with sinners rather than those who were already obeying His teachings, and I'm sure the preacher likewise doesn't hate sinners.
In other words, I'm not convinced the preacher was "sowing hate."

Karon wrote:Opinions about religion are like asses. Everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs is the best.

I mean mother of god, religious arguments are terrible. Neither side has any proof whatsoever, be it a scientific theory, a book written 2000 years ago, or whatever.

Enjoy life, religion isn't important.

You just stated your own "ass".
Perhaps we don't have proof, but we certainly have circumstantial evidence! Do you honestly believe that people will bow their heads to an unknown being without a valid reason for doing so?

I do, but then I don't look at validity the way that most others do.

It takes guts to go out there and say you believe in something no one can see without a darn good alibi, dogma.

Nightwatch wrote:It takes guts to go out there and say you believe in something no one can see without a darn good alibi, dogma.

That doesn't absolve one from criticism.

It also takes guts to say, in public, that religious people are all, necessarily delusional. That doesn't mean such a statement, or belief, should not be criticized.

Wrexasaur wrote:What is this thread about now? Hmm...

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

Protesters can be just as insensitive as the next lot. How long was she blocked from getting into her house? There are usually permits backing up any protest that is blocking/using public space, but it still sucks that there was no precautions for allowing people to enter their houses. I am not entirely sure that being inside your house with a group of protesters screaming would be all that nice, but each to their own.

It was a couple of hours, give or take.

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

Why did these people pick on your niece?

It would have been easy for the police to ask the demonstrators to allow her to go through, or be charged with obstruction of the public highway.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Relapse wrote:My niece was purposely blocked from getting to her house, due to protest on her street by a group of people in favor of homosexuality.
The police did nothing to help her and said they couldn't interfere with the "freedom of speech" these people had to state their views.

Why did these people pick on your niece?

It would have been easy for the police to ask the demonstrators to allow her to go through, or be charged with obstruction of the public highway.

It wasn't just my niece, but some other people that lived on that street being blocked also. It seems the demonstrators didn't want anyone who might disagree with them being on the scene. The police should have been able to clear the way, but were worried about possible legal action against themselves.
It was a jacked up mess fer sure.

Nightwatch wrote:

Karon wrote:Opinions about religion are like asses. Everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs is the best.

I mean mother of god, religious arguments are terrible. Neither side has any proof whatsoever, be it a scientific theory, a book written 2000 years ago, or whatever.

Enjoy life, religion isn't important.

You just stated your own "ass".
Perhaps we don't have proof, but we certainly have circumstantial evidence! Do you honestly believe that people will bow their heads to an unknown being without a valid reason for doing so?

A valid reason? That's why the insanity plea still holds up in court. My robot unicorns from space could also be a valid reason for why I cannot eat hot dog buns on friday or the dark ships of deathmetal will come and get me when I die and drag me to Arrakis and leave me there with no water for eternity, unless Bob Dobbs saves me with his robotic unicorn saviors, who I MUST accept in order to avert such a fate.

There that's my valid reason for standing around and yelling to whoever isn't deaf, and just has to deal with hearing it, about something I actually know deep inside may-or-may-not be true because I've never actually seen it. Preaching is rude, plain and simple. It is not the same as protesting, where a large group of people gather to show their solidarity concerning a REAL actual thing that exists in the world, be it a war, a public policy, an injustice, at least they are yelling about something that exists, instead of "might exist depending on if you believe in holy ghosts or robot unicorns or UFOs or not" sort of reason for a single person to have the gall (someone else said guts) to blather their own personal opinions on things that nobody actually knows, when nobody wants to hear it, should be considered offensive.

The Atheist guy was, in my opinion, just offending as much as he felt offended. And as I said before, I would rather see an image of a midget going poop than a guy being tortured to death, so leaving 'images' just means the 'offended' need thicker skins because their image offends me every time I see a cross hanging around someones neck or on a roof of a church. I don't like celebrating someone being tortured to death before I existed for things I may do in the future's sake. How did Jesus know I would exist? How do we know what Jesus knew? All I know is that robot unicorns sent by bob will deliver me from the curse of hot dog buns and I'm going to go preach on a street corner now to people who will have me arrested. See you guys in a month.

Guitardian wrote:A valid reason? That's why the insanity plea still holds up in court.

Actually, contrary to film and TV the insanity plea hardly ever works and isn't actually used as a defense because of it's low success rate. Only 1% of all cases use it as a defense and of those only 25% are successful.

Right. You would have to be mad to claim insanity as a defence. It hardly ever works.

Kilkrazy wrote:Right. You would have to be mad to claim insanity as a defence. It hardly ever works.

It's like being a bomber pilot, or so I'm told.

That's another catch.

If he was really pissing people off that badly, then the most the cops should have done is give him a fine for disturbing the peace or something, thats perfectly within the law and not stopping his right to free speech.


And as for Frazz, the man is from Texas. Don't mess with Texas. I was born in the deep south, and I wont mess with Texas. OK, lesson learned kids.

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:If he was really pissing people off that badly, then the most the cops should have done is give him a fine for disturbing the peace or something, thats perfectly within the law and not stopping his right to free speech.

You have to remember this is in the UK, where the law is different.

Still, theres nothing along the lines of a "you suck go home" fine there?

I don't think there is an on the spot fine, no.

Oh, then yeah, I guess arresting is the lest they could do to him other then tell him to stop, knowing he would ignore them.


That sucks

I think just the issue of it being an issue is the problem here. Either everybody can spout whatever nonsense they want (THE WYVERNS ARE COMING!) with impunity, or everybody should keep their faith/delusion/nationalism/patriotism/traditions/whatever-you-call-it to themselves.

Any middle ground ambiguity about which faith/delusion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it/etc shows how shallow and full of thousands of years of brainwashing our ideals are. Either you can, and won't be punished for being annoying, or you can't, and can keep it in your worship place of choice so everyone else doesn't have to hear it (mine is a car who's radio speaks to me with the voice of god every time I try to tune my stereo... you pick yours and be treated with the equal level of respect as I expect)

You can go and shout all the annoying nonsense you want, and interrupt other people whom you consider are shouting annoying nonsense by shouting things at them.

All in public, of course.

The courts will determine if you are in the right.

Locking thread.