ShumaGorath wrote:No one cares about total annihilation

TA:Spring is still running. TA Total Conversions have been released as late as five years ago, and that's just when I last checked. Quite a damn few people cared and still care about TA-- indeed, far more has been done for and to TA than ever was done for Starcraft. Try doing a bit of research. No, the main reason that TA is dying is because it has no company to support it. Meanwhile Starcraft has had Blizzard's constant support since the nineties, and because Starcraft is inexplicably popular in Korea.

As for the rest:

-- You accuse me of disliking popular franchises without actually knowing jack diddly squat about what I like or don't like. Right, this comment is stupid, let's move right along.

-- Gears of War, Grand Theft Auto, Army of Two, Dead Space, Saint's Row, Resistance: Retribution (which is strange, I'd have thought FPS would have worked better on a portable than 3PS), Postal (the third game changed to third person), Global Agenda, APB, and so many more show otherwise. As I said (Which you appeared to skip over...) I haven't kept up with the shooter genre as well as I'd have liked, but I see a damned lot of these being produced where I didn't before.

-- Lol, ugly? As opposed to the hilarious replay of a starcraft match where the announcer was absolutely drooling over how well the player handled their tiny, ugly little drones? I don't think so. Actually, Supreme Commander was quite beautiful. You just needed a machine made by the Dwarves of the First Age, blessed by the Omnissiah and powered by Spice in order to see its full beauty at the time. And yet it was still successful enough that they produced a sequel that itself is quite successful as well-- refining and changing the game while keeping the game's identity. You know, progression! Oh wait, that's right, progression is a myth, I'm sorry I appear to have lost my head for a moment.

-- LE GASP! You mean... COMPANIES ARE ADAPTING TO SUPERIOR HARDWARE?!? OH NOES, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! But seriously, you're admitting there is progression then denying it. Make up your mind. Also, nobody gives a damn about "professional" RTS tournaments anyway. But fan-run tournaments (most notably Game Replays) are quite common.

Also, nobody gives a damn about "professional" RTS tournaments anyway. But fan-run tournaments (most notably Game Replays) are quite common.

Right, so whatever you say, is completely true.

I mean honestly man, YOU'RE deciding what I care about?

TA:Spring is still running. TA Total Conversions have been released as late as five years ago, and that's just when I last checked. Quite a damn few people cared and still care about TA-- indeed, far more has been done for and to TA than ever was done for Starcraft. Try doing a bit of research.

The communities are so vastly disparate that this isn't even worse discussing.

[*]You accuse me of disliking popular franchises without actually knowing jack diddly squat about what I like or don't like. Right, this comment is stupid, let's move right along.

Yes, please.

[*]Gears of War, Grand Theft Auto, Army of Two, Dead Space, Saint's Row, Resistance: Retribution (which is strange, I'd have thought FPS would have worked better on a portable than 3PS), Postal (the third game changed to third person), Global Agenda, APB, and so many more show otherwise. As I said (Which you appeared to skip over...) I haven't kept up with the shooter genre as well as I'd have liked, but I see a damned lot of these being produced where I didn't before.

Lets look at e3!

Rage
Halo: reach
Killzone 3
Portal 2
Goldene...

Wait a second. You listed several games that were old... No. No I'm not fething arguing the absolute number of first person shooter games to third person perspective games historically, nor am I going to assemble a vector curve so that you can have a graph.

[*]Lol, ugly? As opposed to the hilarious replay of a starcraft match where the announcer was absolutely drooling over how well the player handled their tiny, ugly little drones? I don't think so. Actually, Supreme Commander was quite beautiful. You just needed a machine made by the Dwarves of the First Age, blessed by the Omnissiah and powered by Spice in order to see its full beauty at the time. And yet it was still successful enough that they produced a sequel that itself is quite successful as well-- refining and changing the game while keeping the game's identity. You know, progression! Oh wait, that's right, progression is a myth, I'm sorry I appear to have lost my head for a moment.

My mac played it just fine (though it wasn't new then). The myth of progression was that it's not always better. Not always. NOT ALWAYS.

You're not very good at reading the english language, nor communicating your points. But then your points are terrible, so it doesn't really matter much.

[*]LE GASP! You mean... COMPANIES ARE ADAPTING TO SUPERIOR HARDWARE?!? OH NOES, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! But seriously, you're admitting there is progression then denying it. Make up your mind. Also, nobody gives a damn about "professional" RTS tournaments anyway. But fan-run tournaments (most notably Game Replays) are quite common.

It appears that you don't have the capability of understand a nuanced concept like "Different and new does not mean better". I'm going to stop arguing it with you. You're just pretty miserable in general at debating whatever your point is (I'm confidant you don't actually have one) and you've managed to equivocate so many times I'm confidant you may actually be a shapeshifter.

I think we're done here.

Hey lets turn a 40k MMO thread, into a wow and other (wtf?!) rts/random games love/hate thread.



Good job fellas

Karon wrote:Also, nobody gives a damn about "professional" RTS tournaments anyway. But fan-run tournaments (most notably Game Replays) are quite common.

Right, so whatever you say, is completely true.

I mean honestly man, YOU'RE deciding what I care about?

I was speaking in hyperbole, but statistically speaking the numbers back me up. The majority of people who buy games are not competitive players, nor do they watch professional gaming tournaments.

When I say majority, I'm speaking of ~80% or more, based off of numbers from various companies in the gaming industry (most notably in my memory, statements by Valve, GasPoweredGames, and Relic).

ShumaGorath wrote:It appears that you don't have the capability of understand a nuanced concept like "Different and new does not mean better"

Actually the main problem appears to be that you refuse to admit that new != worse.

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Karon wrote:Oh, no no. You take me all wrong. I wasn't saying because it was only two factions, I was saying because they called it "Order and Destruction" LOL, which is the same thing WAR call's their two factions.

Pretty lazy of them to coin it so simple. Eldar are hardly orderly, you could say the same for the Imperium.

Blame GW. That's what they called them in the Storm of Chaos Online Campaign years before.

To be fair:
They also called the combined forces of the Orks, Chaos, and Dark Eldar acting in concert for the 13th Black Crusade that also.

Actually, no they didn't.

Team Evil was labeled as DISorder, not Destruction.

Melissia wrote:

Karon wrote:Also, nobody gives a damn about "professional" RTS tournaments anyway. But fan-run tournaments (most notably Game Replays) are quite common.

Right, so whatever you say, is completely true.

I mean honestly man, YOU'RE deciding what I care about?

I was speaking in hyperbole, but statistically speaking the numbers back me up. The majority of people who buy games are not competitive players, nor do they watch professional gaming tournaments.

When I say majority, I'm speaking of ~80% or more, based off of numbers from various companies in the gaming industry (most notably in my memory, statements by Valve, GasPoweredGames, and Relic).

ShumaGorath wrote:It appears that you don't have the capability of understand a nuanced concept like "Different and new does not mean better"

Actually the main problem appears to be that you refuse to admit that new != worse.

I want links to these statistics, or you're argument is worthless.

Actually the main problem appears to be that you refuse to admit that new != worse.

Lol wut.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Actually the main problem appears to be that you refuse to admit that new != worse.

Lol wut.

Flaming off topic spam wars in the news & rumour forum? Guess who is back from a temporary ban

Karon wrote:I want links to these statistics, or you're argument is worthless.

Finding the information is like finding a needle in a haystack (RelicNews Archives is very painful to search through).

However, I did find this from a google search:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6188668.html
72% of the US population between 6 and 44 say that they play games. ~59% of the population above two years plays games. The US has a population of ~309,519,000. I'm too lazy to sift through google that much longer to determine the actual percentage of players who play competitively, but I DID find that 48% of the US population identifies themselves as casual gamers. If you assume the remaining 11% are competitive (which is not a safe assumption, but let's roll with it), then that means only ~18% of the gaming population plays competitively-- larger than I expected, but not really by much. That's still quite a niche market.

Statistics aren't my strong point, however. If you can find better information, go ahead and show it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:Lol wut.

*shrug* That's the vibe I'm getting from your posts. Don't look shocked, you make a similar assumption about my likes and dislikes. Honestly, did you expect that comment of yours to promote the conversation at all in a positive manner?

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Karon wrote:Oh, no no. You take me all wrong. I wasn't saying because it was only two factions, I was saying because they called it "Order and Destruction" LOL, which is the same thing WAR call's their two factions.

Pretty lazy of them to coin it so simple. Eldar are hardly orderly, you could say the same for the Imperium.

Blame GW. That's what they called them in the Storm of Chaos Online Campaign years before.

To be fair:
They also called the combined forces of the Orks, Chaos, and Dark Eldar acting in concert for the 13th Black Crusade that also.

Actually, no they didn't.

Team Evil was labeled as DISorder, not Destruction.

Odd. The WD I've got with the campaign rules reprinted(June 2005) had them labeled as "Forces of Destruction".

However--Destruction still sounds far better than "Forces of Disorder" or "Forces of Order", in my opinion.

Melissia wrote:

Karon wrote:I want links to these statistics, or you're argument is worthless.

Finding the information is like finding a needle in a haystack (RelicNews Archives is very painful to search through).

However, I did find this from a google search:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6188668.html
72% of the US population between 6 and 44 say that they play games. ~59% of the population above two years plays games. The US has a population of ~309,519,000. I'm too lazy to sift through google that much longer to determine the actual percentage of players who play competitively, but I DID find that 48% of the US population identifies themselves as casual gamers. If you assume the remaining 11% are competitive (which is not a safe assumption, but let's roll with it), then that means only ~18% of the gaming population plays competitively-- larger than I expected, but not really by much. That's still quite a niche market.

Statistics aren't my strong point, however. If you can find better information, go ahead and show it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:Lol wut.

*shrug* That's the vibe I'm getting from your posts. Don't look shocked, you make a similar assumption about my likes and dislikes.

I'm satisfied with the statistics, Melissa, appreciate that.

-----------------

He was saying he had no idea what you meant by that sentence.

I apologize for participating in this off-topic talk, I'll bow out and start talking about the game.

Somebody close this thread to shut these idiots up. Open a new one to discuss Dark Millennium

Right.


So, my predictions on how the factions will come out:

Imperium:
-- Space Marine (individually powerful, durable)
-- Guardsman (individually weak, with henchmen and support weapons)
-- POSSIBLY Sisters as a "healer" or "buffer" unit with offensive power, ala the warrior priest in WAR

Orks:
-- Slugga Boy
-- Shoota Boy
-- Possibly a Weirdboy or Mekboy with strange technology for powers?

Eldar:
-- I'm honestly not sure. The obvious path would be warlock or aspect warrior, to me anyway. Farseers as the third option?

Chaos:
-- Chaos Marine (Not as good equipment, but with mutation?)
-- Chaos Cultist (similar to Guardsman, but with more close combat / sorcery / mutations?)
-- (possibly sorcerer? I know I saw a player character in a white robe using warp powers in the video).

*shrug* That's the vibe I'm getting from your posts. Don't look shocked, you make a similar assumption about my likes and dislikes. Honestly, did you expect that comment of yours to promote the conversation at all in a positive manner?

With you? I didn't expect it too for the reason I gave. Others picked up on a few of the things I stated though.

Somebody close this thread to shut these idiots up. Open a new one to discuss Dark Millennium

Thats what this thread is. You had to pass one page of semi related discussion pertaining to game theory (and trolling) out of eleven. Do you want me to call a waaaaahmbulance?

Odd. The WD I've got with the campaign rules reprinted(June 2005) had them labeled as "Forces of Destruction".

However--Destruction still sounds far better than "Forces of Disorder" or "Forces of Order", in my opinion.

They're just going to copy what they had in WAR anyway and the discussion isn't of paramount importance, whatever alternative they use for good and evil has truly little bearing on the game proper.

ShumaGorath wrote:Thats what this thread is. You had to pass one page of semi related discussion pertaining to game theory (and trolling)

Don't be so hard on yourself, I don't think you were trolling (intentionally)

Here's to hoping some people here DO have something resembling a sense of humor and see this for the jesting it is : P

Do you want me to call a waaaaahmbulance?

Yes...yes i do

Melissia wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Thats what this thread is. You had to pass one page of semi related discussion pertaining to game theory (and trolling)

Don't be so hard on yourself, I don't think you were trolling (intentionally)

Here's to hoping some people here DO have something resembling a sense of humor and see this for the jesting it is : P

*Badumpsh*

Yes...yes i do

Melissia and Shuma... I would strongly recommend that you both just learn to accept that people sometimes have a different opinion to your own, and move on. You don't need to have the last word, and you don't need to prove the other wrong.

Let's let the thread get back on track, for those interested in actual discussion, no?

insaniak wrote:Let's let the thread get back on track, for those interested in actual discussion, no?

That's what I was trying to do, along with saying a few bad jokes to lighten the conversation a bit. Mind you, my bad jokes aren't always successful.

So... from earlier on this page, speculation based off of what we've seen:

Melissia wrote:Right.


So, my predictions on how the factions will come out:

Imperium:
-- Space Marine (individually powerful, durable)
-- Guardsman (individually weak, with henchmen and support weapons)
-- POSSIBLY Sisters as a "healer" or "buffer" unit with offensive power, ala the warrior priest in WAR

Orks:
-- Slugga Boy
-- Shoota Boy
-- Possibly a Weirdboy or Mekboy with strange technology for powers?

Eldar:
-- I'm honestly not sure. The obvious path would be warlock or aspect warrior, to me anyway. Farseers as the third option?

Chaos:
-- Chaos Marine (Not as good equipment, but with mutation?)
-- Chaos Cultist (similar to Guardsman, but with more close combat / sorcery / mutations?)
-- (possibly sorcerer? I know I saw a player character in a white robe using warp powers in the video).

Melissia wrote:

insaniak wrote:Let's let the thread get back on track, for those interested in actual discussion, no?

That's what I was trying to do, along with saying a few bad jokes to lighten the conversation a bit. Mind you, my bad jokes aren't always successful.

So... from earlier on this page, speculation based off of what we've seen:

Melissia wrote:Right.


So, my predictions on how the factions will come out:

Imperium:
-- Space Marine (individually powerful, durable)
-- Guardsman (individually weak, with henchmen and support weapons)
-- POSSIBLY Sisters as a "healer" or "buffer" unit with offensive power, ala the warrior priest in WAR

Orks:
-- Slugga Boy
-- Shoota Boy
-- Possibly a Weirdboy or Mekboy with strange technology for powers?

Eldar:
-- I'm honestly not sure. The obvious path would be warlock or aspect warrior, to me anyway. Farseers as the third option?

Chaos:
-- Chaos Marine (Not as good equipment, but with mutation?)
-- Chaos Cultist (similar to Guardsman, but with more close combat / sorcery / mutations?)
-- (possibly sorcerer? I know I saw a player character in a white robe using warp powers in the video).

I saw an Inquisitor in the video that looked like a PC so hopefully they are playable. Also, I really like Sister of Battle and I really don't want to be forced into a healer position if I chose to play one.

Well thats alot of speculation "based off what we've seen"...

In the trailer we have:
Imperium:
Enginseer
Guardsmen
Black Templar
Warhound Titan
Marine Biker

Ork:
Slugga Boy
Megga Nob
Deffkopta
Truk

Chaos:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle
Khorne Bezerkers
Bezerkers on Bikes
Chaos Cultist
Dreadnought
Sorcerer

Keep in mind taht that guy in the white robe could have also been an Imperial Psyker instead.

Now this is a WIN .

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I saw an Inquisitor in the video that looked like a PC so hopefully they are playable. Also, I really like Sister of Battle and I really don't want to be forced into a healer position if I chose to play one.

Have you played WAR, most notably the Warrior Priest in WAR?

They're a melee combatant who wears heavy armor, and gains the mana for spellcasting through dealing damage, if my memory serves me. It's a grea concept.

I really want to be a Princeps of a Warhound...

Something tells me the warhound will be one of those "micro-transaction" items... pay $50 for a warhound!

Melissia wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I saw an Inquisitor in the video that looked like a PC so hopefully they are playable. Also, I really like Sister of Battle and I really don't want to be forced into a healer position if I chose to play one.

Have you played WAR, most notably the Warrior Priest in WAR?

They're a melee combatant who wears heavy armor, and gains the mana for spellcasting through dealing damage, if my memory serves me. It's a grea concept.

No I haven't. But from what I know Sisters of Battle are heavily aligned with the Ordo Hereticus and I don't see them using magic like that, however, they do have the prayer aspect which may be what you are talking about.

That and Acts of Faith.

That's what I meant, thanks.

I just don't see the whole of sisters of battle as healers, but they may force the fact that the order that is in this sector is one of the non-combatant orders.

Don't think of it as "healer" so much as inspiring their teammates to fight longer, similar to why Bards are the "healer" in Lord of the Rings Online.

aka_mythos wrote:Something tells me the warhound will be one of those "micro-transaction" items... pay $50 for a warhound!

Actually, they made it very explicit in an interview today that any commentary about the possible payment structures, etc are to be taken with mountains of salt since they're going to be trying to figure out what the bigger trends are going to be.

So we may never see micro-transactions enter the mix.

I never really liked the healers in WAR. I didnt like the fact I had to go save some warrior priests ass or a diciples because they got too combat happy. And dont get me started on the archmage i mean wtf that should have been a DPS class!

And I rpeferred it. I played a "healer" class and actually enjoyed it until WAR.

Melissia wrote:Don't think of it as "healer" so much as inspiring their teammates to fight longer, similar to why Bards are the "healer" in Lord of the Rings Online.

Ahhhh I gotcha now. that would be pretty cool.

Ohhh God..... Penitent Engines

Melissia wrote:Don't think of it as "healer" so much as inspiring their teammates to fight longer, similar to why Bards are the "healer" in Lord of the Rings Online.

SOB as motivational speakers....

ewww.

That's a scary thought.

CitizenPrime wrote:

Melissia wrote:Don't think of it as "healer" so much as inspiring their teammates to fight longer, similar to why Bards are the "healer" in Lord of the Rings Online.

SOB as motivational speakers....

ewww.

That's a scary thought.

Sisters can be quite motivating.

Fire is very helpful in this matter!

Melissia wrote:

CitizenPrime wrote:

Melissia wrote:Don't think of it as "healer" so much as inspiring their teammates to fight longer, similar to why Bards are the "healer" in Lord of the Rings Online.

SOB as motivational speakers....

ewww.

That's a scary thought.

Sisters can be quite motivating.

Fire is very helpful in this matter!

Or being strapped to aforementioned penitent engine.

Arco-flagellation is also pretty motivating.

I would prefer the game avoid healer and stealth classes entirely. My preference would be for it to avoid the MMO tropes and use a cover system or some other form of complication for the battles.

Melissia wrote:Arco-flagellation is also pretty motivating.

So who is more inspirational? Sweaty Steve Balmer, or Sweaty half naked leather bound chicks in power armor with automatic mini-missile launcher guns?

Your mother is more inspirational, or that's what the mailman told me.

ShumaGorath: Unless it's very much an action based game rather than an RPG game (basically an MMP3PS), then a "healer" class-- in the sense of a class that supports the team-- is pretty much a requirement to ensure teamwork rather than having everyone act as a group of individuals in an MMO.

drukawski wrote:

Melissia wrote:Arco-flagellation is also pretty motivating.

So who is more inspirational? Sweaty Steve Balmer, or Sweaty half naked leather bound chicks in power armor with automatic mini-missile launcher guns?

Doesn't make me wanna fight....

maybe fu..... hey look at the time.

ShumaGorath: Unless it's very much an action based game rather than an RPG game (basically an MMP3PS), then a "healer" class-- in the sense of a class that supports the team-- is pretty much a requirement to ensure teamwork rather than having everyone act as a group of individuals in an MMO.

Thats certainly an aspect and it's one I wouldn't really mind. I think that the healer dynamic of MMOs is used as a crutch to enforce specific team builds. I would rather that a team be capable of completing an instance with skill and proper use of abilities rather than by spamming the heal all button on a good enough priest. It makes for lazy and samish encounters when you just use the "Heal, dps, tank" trio. I would really prefer this not just be WoW with guns.

I suppose that makes sense. Then what would you suggest for teammates?

I know CoH didn't require a "healer" to win. A Defender was never a "healer" unless they were an Empath, but frankly a Bubbler was far more helpful to the team overall (preventing damage was more helpful than healing it).

Melissia wrote:Your mother is more inspirational, or that's what the mailman told me.

Oooo OOoooo! Internet FIGHT!!!!

Melissia wrote:I suppose that makes sense. Then what would you suggest for teammates?

I know CoH didn't require a "healer" to win. A Defender was never a "healer" unless they were an Empath, but frankly a Bubbler was far more helpful to the team overall (preventing damage was more helpful than healing it).

Rad defenders or therm cors were pretty straight healers though rad was also a glorious debuff set. Rad/rad was ridiculous. That game was so poorly balanced. Realistically though CoH (no so much cov) did have straight healer classes with very capable and spammable mass heals. They weren't required for most missions (which I liked quite a bit) though and the open ended formula used in those games concerning what a "class" was was nice.

Is it too much for me to hope for a classless MMO with career specialty paths that you choose as you level?

If you want a true classless system, try Champions Online.

aka_mythos wrote:Something tells me the warhound will be one of those "micro-transaction" items... pay $50 for a warhound!

Hey, as long as the game's worth playing, I'm down

I'd happily buy a warhound just to stomp around the Hive cruising for ganger-chicks.

Nothing like muscled-up butch chicks with OOT pink mohawks and chests like flapjacks to get the old loins going

I don't have much vision as to what the other classes will play like, but I can totally see the Techmarine playing like the engineer from Borderlands.

Wouldn't the "healer" class be an apothecary? It would be one more thing to fit with or break away from the universe.

Some interviews from E3
http://www.massively.com/2010/06/17/e3-2010-interview-with-warhammer-40ks-mark-downie/
http://www.vigilgames.com/videos/john-mueller-e3
http://www.vigilgames.com/videos/david-adams-interview

bad news, aiming for Q1 2013, :(

How is that bad? That means they'll have ~2.5 years to perfect it.

Long time though, I've been waiting since 2007 LOL.

I mean, it'll be better, but it's gonna be hard to wait for.

Six years is above average for an MMO development cycle which hover between 3 and five years.

I guess its not BAD news per se, it just going to be hard to wait is all.

I am glad they are putting in the requisite amount of time to develop it fully, rather than pull a Mythic and brag it only took them 2.5 years (WAR development time...)

Melissia wrote:How is that bad? That means they'll have ~2.5 years to perfect it.

You are obviously un-familiar with game development schedules, what it REALLY means is they will have ~2.5 years of delays, postponements, and push backs, and sometime around October in 2014 there will be a small thread on Slashdot saying Vigil games went under and THQ picked up the license. Then around Feb 2015 there will be an announcement that Disney/Pixar's Wall-E 40k will be released in time for the Christmas shopping season.

Melissia wrote:

RTS games: CnC4 I haven't played yet. But really, do you think I'd expect innovation out of Electronic Arts? They do provide good games every now and then, but in their games tend to be SAFE rather than risking with something new. But the rest of the RTS genre? SupCom2 changed quite a bit from SupCom:FA, many of the changes were for the better even if it aliented some of the hardcore fans (SupCom, despite being a very high quality game, was basically the Crysis of its genre, and for some people its core concepts were hard to grasp)-- that they also have it on the 360 has increased their profits a bit as well. Dawn of War 2 caused a big fan-made fuss with the changes it made from DoW1, yet financially it was a pretty big success for Relic. The RTS genre has typically been rather slow to progress, yet it has, gradually moving away from the older -Craft style of gameplay towards more RTT style, which is easier for the average consumer to pick up, understand, and enjoy than the intense base building of the RTS. The fact that there is now a distinction between RTT and RTS doesn't really separate them in the minds of most of the population I would think, they're still "strategy" games, even if, say, Warcraft 3 and World in Conflict have dramatically different playing styles. Just like they combine 3PS and FPS into "action" or "shooter", often also including "adventure" too for kicks. The progression in this genre seems to be going away from traditional style RTS games, and more towards RTT style, even if there are still a few traditionalist games being made every year (though very few of them can be called notable aside from Starcraft II). If I'm not mistaken, even CnC4 reflects this.

I just wanted to point out that lord of the rings the battle for middle earth 2 for the 360 by EA was an amazing game and very innovative. all xbox rts's take after it, nothing like it had been done before

Lord of battles wrote:I just wanted to point out that lord of the rings the battle for middle earth 2 for the 360 by EA was an amazing game and very innovative. all xbox rts's take after it, nothing like it had been done before

That's not exactly hard to do, considering how console RTS games have floundered and failed until recently. But yes, as I said,

They [EA] do provide good games every now and then

Melissia wrote:How is that bad? That means they'll have ~2.5 years to perfect it.

Not even, more like 1.5-2

THQs Fiscal year ends in March, so March 31st 2012 will be the end of FY12 for THQ (they are currently in FY11) so that means that anywhere from April 1 2012 to July 1st 2012 will be Q1 FY 13 for them.

That's not exactly hard to do, considering how console RTS games have floundered and failed until recently. But yes, as I said,

By everything I know of that game it floundered and failed saleswise, or at the very least did not meet EAs expectations for sales. To date I'm not aware of any console RTS that has sold satisfactorily (the halo franchise included).

SupCom2 did, but I have no idea on the split between Xbox sales and PC sales.

I certainly wouldn't bet that the Xbox sales were impressive compared to the PC sales.

Well, as the Vigil Games boss said, this game is still years away. While the pics are done with the basic game engine, they won't say anything on the game play yet, as everything is in the flow. Good thing that the boss has been playing 40k since being a kid, so he got a real interest to make it right, not neglecting the RPG side of the game.

Concerning the rumoured Eldar side:
Many MMORPGs have a character class selection with a sorcerer (low armour range damage dealer), a buffer (healing and other stuff, usually better armoured), a fighter (close combat tank) and a shooter (ranged attacks, less armour) for each race.

For Edar this might be:
Warlock/ Farseer (male/female) as sorcerer
(Warlock or something new as buffer?)
Banshee or Scorpion as cc tank (less likely but cool: Harlequin)
Pathfinder as shooter

Sororitas is one possible buffer for the empire, but there are other options as well (penitent engine has nothing to do with Sororitas BTW).

Still, this is pure speculation ATM with no basis on facts or concrete rumours.

I can not see how it will be possible to use a traditional MMO formula for a 40k MMO. Especially given how the crux of 40k is combat oriented. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying I can't fathom how it would be arranged along those traditional formulas.

Until there is more concrete info to support what is being proposed on the game mechanics as a whole, I've got to just be patient and wait. Maybe, just maybe, we'll all be very pleasantly surprised. As it is now, I'm sort of cringing.

Rymafyr wrote:I can not see how it will be possible to use a traditional MMO formula for a 40k MMO. Especially given how the crux of 40k is combat oriented. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying I can't fathom how it would be arranged along those traditional formulas.

Until there is more concrete info to support what is being proposed on the game mechanics as a whole, I've got to just be patient and wait. Maybe, just maybe, we'll all be very pleasantly surprised. As it is now, I'm sort of cringing.

Virtually every MMO that has been released has been based on combat. I'm not sure what you mean here.

Personally I hope they stay away from the overdone character archetypes that make so many MMOs feel identical.
And the thought of a healer class in a 40k MMO just seems cheesy.

By the look of it, ranged will be similar to a 3ps shooter. CC I'm hoping will use Mount and Blade's combat mechanics, where you move the mouse in the direction you want the character to swing/block. Makes combat much more skill-testing and immersive

metallifan wrote:By the look of it, ranged will be similar to a 3ps shooter. CC I'm hoping will use Mount and Blade's combat mechanics, where you move the mouse in the direction you want the character to swing/block. Makes combat much more skill-testing and immersive

AS nice as this would be, I mean really nice. I doubt it would happen it would be very complex full of bugs and have loops holes somewhere to be exploited somehow !

But !

One can hope...one can hope.

I hope the Ranged combat will actually be good, and where you hit the person actually increases or decreases the damage you do and has different effects. For example hitting the legs reduces speed ever so slightly.

metallifan wrote:By the look of it, ranged will be similar to a 3ps shooter. CC I'm hoping will use Mount and Blade's combat mechanics, where you move the mouse in the direction you want the character to swing/block. Makes combat much more skill-testing and immersive

Now make that system work with standard three second mmo server lag (the gymnastics MMO programmers use to make it not seem like the game is lagging is amazing. They're wizards of their craft.) There's a reason "real time" gameplay in MMOs is essentially non existent and most go with initiative and stat based combat rather than skill or input base.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:I can not see how it will be possible to use a traditional MMO formula for a 40k MMO. Especially given how the crux of 40k is combat oriented. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying I can't fathom how it would be arranged along those traditional formulas.

Until there is more concrete info to support what is being proposed on the game mechanics as a whole, I've got to just be patient and wait. Maybe, just maybe, we'll all be very pleasantly surprised. As it is now, I'm sort of cringing.

Virtually every MMO that has been released has been based on combat. I'm not sure what you mean here.

I think what I meant here was that in 40k, at least looking at it from a TT perspective, everyone is a damage dealer. There are no specific classes that would sufficiently lend support in a party system, without really warping the idea that is 40k TT. Not that I expect a 40k MMO to play like the TT but I don't think every party(squad) would have say an Apothecary(Healer type). Just looking at the dynamics from the MMO I play now (Lineage2) It would be ridiculous to use those traditional MMO roles but just make it w/ Space Marines.

I've really thought about it the last several days and the only answer I can come up with is that Factions would have to be race specific. But even then, I don't see people going for guardsmen and SM in the same squad...so it would have to be even more specific. Again...the best thing is to wait til more info is released.

Rymafyr wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:I can not see how it will be possible to use a traditional MMO formula for a 40k MMO. Especially given how the crux of 40k is combat oriented. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying I can't fathom how it would be arranged along those traditional formulas.

Until there is more concrete info to support what is being proposed on the game mechanics as a whole, I've got to just be patient and wait. Maybe, just maybe, we'll all be very pleasantly surprised. As it is now, I'm sort of cringing.

Virtually every MMO that has been released has been based on combat. I'm not sure what you mean here.

I think what I meant here was that in 40k, at least looking at it from a TT perspective, everyone is a damage dealer. There are no specific classes that would sufficiently lend support in a party system, without really warping the idea that is 40k TT. Not that I expect a 40k MMO to play like the TT but I don't think every party(squad) would have say an Apothecary(Healer type). Just looking at the dynamics from the MMO I play now (Lineage2) It would be ridiculous to use those traditional MMO roles but just make it w/ Space Marines.

I've really thought about it the last several days and the only answer I can come up with is that Factions would have to be race specific. But even then, I don't see people going for guardsmen and SM in the same squad...so it would have to be even more specific. Again...the best thing is to wait til more info is released.

What if Morale was used for health instead, like LotRO? The squad leader could help people gain morale back by (obviously) supplying them with moral support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With that you could have quite a few things based off morale. like maximum damage, speed, etc. The closer you are to 75%+ the better you perform, but when your morale begins to fail you will not e able to perform as well.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:What if Morale was used for health instead, like LotRO? The squad leader could help people gain morale back by (obviously) supplying them with moral support.

I was just coming to post something along the same lines. I was thinking of the Captain in LotRO would be a good class to look at for healing without creating a specific healer that just hits a heal button. You pop an ork's head and the Brother Sergeant "rallies the troops" giving all the marines around him a heal over time, like the Captains battle shouts. Instead of having it all in one, you give everyone some way to do it a little so everyone relies on each other.

And the Battle Sister would not use magic to buff her allies, but prayer-chants in battle to encourage them, so that they fight their enemies with greater zeal (therefor doing more damage / shrugging off more damage / etc). That's what I meant when I said "buffer/healer", not actually someone who goes around healing. Battle prayers that are active while she fights.

Each pull of the trigger is a prayer. Each swing of the sword is a message.

I reeeeeeeeaaaaaallllly doubt that sisters will be represented with a playable character class in this game.

If anyone wants to play a game that's a mix of a FPS and MMO-style close combat (3rd Person) then google Savage 2 and download it. Really great game, and its free, and it also has one person take over an RTS role, where they build stuff for the players on the field and such.

ShumaGorath wrote:I reeeeeeeeaaaaaallllly doubt that sisters will be represented with a playable character class in this game.

*shrug* I don't know myself. I hope so. It would make sense, because the common perception (Even if incorrect) would be that they are female Space Marines, therefor creating an even split in genders, and because it would make sense for a short-ranged class based around flamers, meltaguns, and party support anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised that if there's a Inquisition expansion if the game gets popular

Luke_Prowler wrote:I wouldn't be surprised that if there's a Inquisition expansion if the game gets popular

Which would be cool, but I'd rather be a Sister than an Inquisitor.

Besides, really, how would you portray Inquisitors anyway? Each one is unique...

Party support? Because Sister, Marines, and Guard all run around in super friends squads in 40K?



PUH-LEASE.


The vehicle combat sounds badass though. I'll be more than happy to spend my days land raidering through the torn up streets of some cartoon looking city.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:PUH-LEASE.

We're talking about an MMORPG with action elements.

Besides, having the Sisters class be a short-ranged flame/melta based class alone would be pretty neat. Not as much HP as a Marine, but equal armor, and better short-ranged firepower with flamers or meltaguns.

Melissia wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I reeeeeeeeaaaaaallllly doubt that sisters will be represented with a playable character class in this game.

*shrug* I don't know myself. I hope so. It would make sense, because the common perception (Even if incorrect) would be that they are female Space Marines, therefor creating an even split in genders, and because it would make sense for a short-ranged class based around flamers, meltaguns, and party support anyway.

Given the likely gender split in the games playerbase (female MMO players seem to trend higher in fantasy MMOs in a statistically significant fashion) the attempt at creating a gender equal playerbase seems a bit foolhardy. Considering that three of the available races are either male only or don't even have a gender (space marines, chaos space marines, orks) the focus on the game and really the 40k universe itself isn't one of gender representation.

I would assume that GW and by extension the developer wants its most iconic and boxable assets in it's universe in the forefront. The sisters are the black headed step daughter of the 40k universe with stagnant sales, rare inclusion in anything resembling market penetrating products (soulstorm. Woo.), and very little outside interest by prospective customers. They don't even make a whole lot of sense in the game proper considering they are primarily a defensive force and I doubt the game is going to take place on a shrine world. I'm sure you'll see a sister NPC or two, but there's little reason for their inclusion as a player faction in my opinion.

This same explanation works for dark eldar (in the evil faction) as well.

ShumaGorath wrote:They don't even make a whole lot of sense in the game proper considering they are primarily a defensive force

No more than Guard.

Besides, you forget: The faction isn't listed as "Space Marines", it's specifically listed as "Imperium". Which means probably a Guardsman/Stormtrooper class, perhaps a Psyker class, and then naturally a Space Marine class would be likely. A Sisters class would round this out.

Am I saying this is likely? No. Only that it makes more sense to me than not including them. They aren't really going to rely on us 40k players to make money anyway. They're going to rely on a lot of people who quite frankly don't know much about the universe to begin with, and 40k players will probably be a minority.

Besides, not everyone who plays a female character is actually female themselves. I know plenty of people who use female characters if only because they'd rather stare at a female's back(side) for hours on end than a male's. *shrug*

No more than Guard.

The guard are the primary offensive organization of the imperium with tens of thousands of times the numbers of the sisters. The sisters are by eclesiarchichal law set down after the "thorian revolution" end to "the reign of blood" a shrine defensive force only and very rarely get carted around by inquisitors to do out of system combat.

They are a defensive force because imperial law decrees it. It's the entire point of their order. The eclesiarchy isn't allowed to have an offensive military force.

Besides, you forget: The faction isn't listed as "Space Marines", it's specifically listed as "Imperium". Which means probably a Guardsman/Stormtrooper class, perhaps a Psyker class, and then naturally a Space Marine class would be likely. A Sisters class would round this out.

As would a mechanicus class though the faction is listed as the forces of order, not the imperium and could well feature eldar or tau as well. Rounding out the list nicely is a subjective view, I don't think their inclusion would round it out in anything more than a politically correct gender neutral fashion (unless they are defending a shrine world in which case it would make sense). The guard and the mechanicus both feature women and the mechanicus doesn't use any form of segregation practices (the guard often utilize females as pdf troops or in female only detachments).

Am I saying this is likely? No. Only that it makes more sense to me than not including them. They aren't really going to rely on us 40k players to make money anyway. They're going to rely on a lot of people who quite frankly don't know much about the universe to begin with, and 40k players will probably be a minority.

The visual aesthetic of the guns with nuns does have appeal to that 14 year old boy in us all.

Besides, not everyone who plays a female character is actually female themselves. I know plenty of people who use female characters if only because they'd rather stare at a female's back(side) for hours on end than a male's. *shrug*

I know people like that as well, however statistical trends tend to speak for themselves and the majority of male players do run male characters.

ShumaGorath wrote:They are a defensive force because imperial law decrees it.

Then you do not know the faction. The Sisters of Battle are constantly undertaking Wars of Faith in the name of the Ecclesiarchy. Even if you had only read the third edition codex you'd know this.

the faction is listed as the forces of order

No, they are listed as Imperium, Eldar, Orks, and Chaos. Eldar and Imperium are grouped into "Forces of Order", Orks and Chaos are grouped into the other faction. It has never been just "Forces of Order".

Then you do not know the faction. The Sisters of Battle are constantly undertaking Wars of Faith in the name of the Ecclesiarchy. Even if you had only read the third edition codex you'd know this.

I think you need to go back and read the important bit where it states that such things are rarities within the imperium. They are common statistically because the imperium has over a million worlds. They are incredibly uncommon given the number of abbeys that do and do not participate in them. Every codex involving them has been explicit in noting that such crusades are against imperial law and that they are rare and often times unwelcome given the sisters penchant for just killing everything they can on a whim. The sisters do not maintain fleets, the are dependant entirely on either the imperial navy who don't like to involve foreign forces and the inquisition that will use them for in system combat or wars over short interstellar distances. The sisters don't just fly into space. You're not going to manage to pull off some sort of internet nerd fight concerning 40k fluff here, I'll go forever and my knowledge of this stupid and conflicting fluff setting is encyclopedic. SHUMA STRONG!

No, they are listed as Imperium, Eldar, Orks, and Chaos. Eldar and Imperium are grouped into "Forces of Order", Orks and Chaos are grouped into the other faction. It has never been just "Forces of Order".

It has never just been anything considering that this game is in early pre alpha. I know what has been stated in the interviews and trailers now released. Thats what I'm choosing to go from. They have used the terminology of order for the good guy side, not the imperium. This is likely kept intentionally loose in order to facilitate the inclusion of order aligned xenos without splitting the game into more than two warring factions.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think you need to go back and read the important bit where it states that such things are rarities within the imperium.

Cite your source. Book and page number.

And I will cite mine: C:WH, page six.

By late M36, the Sisters of Battle had become synonymous with the temporal power of the Ecclesiarchy, enforcing its dogma and prosecuting its wars across the galaxy.

Page seven lists several of these wars, including one in particular where one thousand Sisters conquered one hundred worlds.

Now, tell me-- if the Sisters rarely go to war, why, then, are they synonymous with war in the Ecclesiarchy's name, and fight the church's wars across the galaxy?

The reason is because you are wrong. The Sisters of Battle do not just sit around waiting for battle to come to them.

Here's a trailer.

Cite your source. Book and page number.

Only one i have on this computer is withchunters. Page 10 describes the sisters as a shrine defensive force and a form of religious police force first and as an offensive military force second making special mention that they follow the decree passive when such forces are formed forcing the induction of conscripted planetary men at arms. Given that neither the sisters nor the eclesiarchy are allowed to keep warfleets (only the mechanicus, rogue traders, and the imperial navy are allowed too) logic and the terminology used in this book dictates that the conflicts they participate in are most commonly in system or across short interstellar distances.

The book takes special care to note that the sisters are the chamber militant of the ordo hereticus which is by its nature an offensive organization. However by it's nature its also incredibly small compared to the sheer size of the adeptus sororitas and their inclusion within it's structure does not fundamentally alter the common practices of the sisters.

The witchhunters book is a 40k codex, it's going to talk an awful lot about great and glorious campaigns. It also makes note that these are not the common modus operandi of the adeptus sororitas and indeed the sisters aren't even a standalone codex in part for that reason (also poor sales).

Page seven lists several of these wars, including one in particular where one thousand Sisters conquered one hundred worlds.

Now, tell me-- if the Sisters rarely go to war, why, then, are they synonymous with war in the Ecclesiarchy's name, and fight the church's wars across the galaxy?

The reason is because you are wrong. The Sisters of Battle do not just sit around waiting for battle to come to them.

I know i stated this before, but your capacity for logical reading is questionable sometimes. The church holds power on every single planet in the imperium. Over one million planets. All defensive actions on imperial worlds have a chance of involving a faction of the adeptus sororitas. They are common. Since the eclesiarchy doesn't command the guard, the navy, or the marines logically every single one of it's wars has to be fought by the sisters. They are its only militaristic force. Thus they HAVE TO BE SYNONYMOUS with the churches wars. Also that book was written by an idiot. Lord solar macharius conquered one thousand worlds in his lifetime with one of the most massive military forces seen since the crusades involving several marine chapters and was sainted as the best imperial commander in 10 thousand years. One thousand sisters pulling off a similar feat? Puke.

I'm waiting for you to provide proof that Wars of Faith are rare. You have yet to do so.

It also makes note that these are not the common modus operandi of the adeptus sororitas

1: If you're going toi argue about the faction, at least spell its name right.
2: Nowhere in C:WH does it say this. Cite the page if you really want to press this issue, because I have the codex in front of me, and I find no such statements.


IF the lack of transportation is evidence of the faction being defensive, then the Guard are also defensive. The Guard are separate from the Navy. The Munitorum quite frequently just pays chartist captains and other private owners of space ships to transport combat forces from one place to another (a prime example of this is in the second Cain book). There is no reason the Ecclesiarchy, one of the richest (possibly the richest period) organizations in the Imperium, cannot afford to do the same thing.

I'm waiting for you to provide proof that Wars of Faith are rare. You have yet to do so.

Thats because rare is a relative term. When you have a million planets nothing is rare. Something can be statistically rare when compared to the standard body of an organization while being perspectively common overall. Murder is an uncommon act to commit. Someone is murdered every few seconds on this planet. These ideas are not irreconcilable.

1: If you're going toi argue about the faction, at least learn to spell its name right.

You misspelled a two letter word in that sentence. The irony threatens to kill us all.

2: Nowhere in C:WH does it say this. Cite the page if you really want to press this issue, because I have the codex in front of me, and I find no such statements.

i hate image shack

It states both of these things before stating that they are called upon for ecclesiastical wars of faith. The book makes no mention of the warfleets required to prosecute interstellar campaigns. It just mentions that wars happen. Like I said in the previous post, it's a poorly written book and the sisters themselves have had be retconned several times.

IF the lack of transportation is evidence of the faction being defensive, then the Guard are also defensive. The Guard are separate from the Navy. The Munitorum quite frequently just pays chartist captains and other private owners of space ships to transport combat forces from one place to another (a prime example of this is in the second Cain book). There is no reason the Ecclesiarchy, one of the richest (possibly the richest period) organizations in the Imperium, can certainly afford to do the same thing.

The navy by it's charter and function exists to protect imperial space and transport the imperial guard. Its part of their founding. Naval fleets are assembled by the munitorum and all naval fleets have guard consignments to allow them to act in an offensive or defensive fashion on planets. Every single fleet in space carries imperial guard troops. The guard are definitely also defensive. They are the fighting force of the imperium. They do all tasks required of them that are not the sole purview of other factions.

Charter captains do not commonly have interstellar craft as those require navigators, the navigators being under the sole control of terra. They are far from common individually and they command quite a price. The interstellar limitation of using charter guilds is a stifling one in and of itself with the most powerful charter guilds being more powerful than the leaders of the individual worlds that they could be traveling too.

Again, I said that such campaigns were rare, not impossible or unheard of. Paying charter guilds is certainly doable, it's just unlikely and certainly not common. The witchhunters book is bad on the level of bad that the necron codex is bad. It's full of logical holes and I doubt it will survive in it's current form into whatever it becomes when GW chooses to renew it.


As an aside, the cain books aren't very good sources for fluff. They're canonical, but they contradict other canon. Really though, thats GWs problem anyway. Half the games canon conflicts with the other half. No one knows what meltaguns do or what happens when plasma weapons overheat and everyone writes something different. The fluffs a mess.

Too many multi-quotes for my liking.

1: Semantics arguments aren't going to get you anywhere.

2: I made a typo, yes . That is not the same as misspelling the same word consistently. Adepta, not Adeptus-- you have the codex in front of you...

3: That it does not contain details do not mean that Wars of Faith are rare.

4: Navigators are under the "control" of the Navis Nobilitae, which themselves are monitored by the Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas (along with other noble houses). The Navigators of the Navigator families are used by the Imperial Navy, just like they are used by the Chartist Captains. Thus, this is rather irrelevant. Furthermore, the Chartist Captains are powerful, but not so much so as the Ecclesiarchy. Finally, I should note that you are using a logical fallacy-- absence of evidence does not prove your point, it merely shows that GW has not expanded upon the fluff properly.

5: Yes, you do say they are rare. But I do not ask for your opinion; I ask for the proof that backs it up.

6: This is very much off-topic, so this'll be my last post in this thread. If you want to continue, make a thread in the Background forum or PM me your response.

For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

Too many multi-quotes for my liking.

1: Semantics arguments aren't going to get you anywhere.

I got comfortable with the quote system around post 2500.

2: I made a typo, yes . That is not the same as misspelling the same word consistently. Adepta, not Adeptus-- you have the codex in front of you.

Well, technically it's on my hard drive. I mostly keep getting it wrong because it's not a real word and I don't care.

3: That it does not contain details do not mean that Wars of Faith are rare.

True, a lack of information does not explicitly imply something (unless it does, but it doesn't here).

4: Navigators are under the "control" of the Navis Nobilitae, which themselves are monitored by the Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas. The Navigators of the Navigator families are used by the Imperial Navy, just like they are used by the Chartist Captains. Thus, this is rather irrelevant. Furthermore, the Chartist Captains are powerful, but not so much so as the Ecclesiarchy. Finally, I should note that you are using a logical fallacy-- absence of evidence does not prove your point, it merely shows that GW has not expanded upon the fluff properly.

The Navigator Houses hold a unique position within the Imperium; they are not answerable to the authority of the Imperium, but tend to toe the Imperial line because of the mutual benefits each side receives. Furthermore, members of the Navis Nobilite are compelled by ancient and binding oaths to serve with the Adeptus Mechanicus for a set duration in return for the Techpriests' services, serving the Imperial Navy and Merchant Fleets.
This autonomy does not however, protect the Navigators from the agents of the Inquisition. The Ordo Malleus has been assigned jurisdiction over the Navigators, to ensure the taint of Chaos is not able to take hold. Given the slightest reason, the Inquisition will ruthlessly purge any offending parties; goods and assets are seized, midnight raids on Navigator palaces are followed by arrests and a purging of those seen as tainted; their fate to be burnt as heretics or locked away in Inquisition torture chambers. As such, the Navis Nobilite are all too willing to tackle this problem internally.

I'm not sure where you're getting that they are under the control of the Sororitas. They aren't under the control of the ecclesiarchy at all, or even the imperium. Hell, the paternoval envoy is a high lord of terra. Then again, this could be another situation of GW writers not reading what they are supposed to be supplementing.

Yes, you do say they are rare. But I do not ask for your opinion; I ask for the proof that backs it up.

You are using the same fallacy by stating that they are common. I am using the logic presented within the universe of the game to come to the conclusion that they are rare. You are using the logic presented within the universe of the game to come to the conclusion that they are possible and then asserting that they are common because of that.

6: This is very much off-topic, so this'll be my last post in this thread. If you want to continue, make a thread in the Background forum or PM me your response.

I don't think debating the merits or possibilities of sisters inclusion into dark millennium is off topic. It's just a deeper discussion than the "I LIKE SCREEN SHOTS THOSE TEXTURES LOOK LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT" discussion that was happening before. If you wish to end it here then I have no problem doing so. I dislike debating over PM because I can't go back and edit PMs and that doesn't suit my writing style at all (8 edits on that last post of mine!).

Mel, check your 2nd Ed. Codex: SoB I sent you, if the 'War of Faith' isn't part of an Imperial 'Crusade', the Ecclesiarch has to pay for it out of pocket. So that is probobaly what Shuma is talking about, but you never know. Imperial Crusades are almost always also 'Wars of Faith' and SoB get to go on all of those on principle, and Crusades happen ALL THE fething TIME.

Ok, Shuma, lets not pull this off-topic again, just stop. You and I both know even if you are completely right (I have no idea) Melissa will still argue what she said from the start.

------------

I'm going to re-post this, since some of the information was brought up, and some may not have saw it

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=606969

Fluff is a mixture of made-up history, half-remembered ancient history, legend, propaganda and space opera pseudo-science.

Consequently it does not provide a good basis for rational argument.

If people want to argue about things, please do it nicely and do it in an appropriate thread.

Too lazy to find the quote, but Vigil Games said that in principle they have the intention to bring all fractions of 40k into the game as playable races, if that is possible (obviously not Tyranids and Necrons and maybe Daemons) and the game is successfull long enough to finance such work. See this as a long time perspective, not something happening in the first two years of the game (to be released 2012 or 2013 or later).

UltraPrime wrote:For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

I gotta agree, it gets pretty old pretty quick. Can we put a temporary ban on debating WH fluff?

Kroothawk wrote:Too lazy to find the quote, but Vigil Games said that in principle they have the intention to bring all fractions of 40k into the game as playable races, if that is possible (obviously not Tyranids and Necrons and maybe Daemons) and the game is successfull long enough to finance such work. See this as a long time perspective, not something happening in the first two years of the game (to be released 2012 or 2013 or later).

Ouch 2012 or 2013? Why didn't they just hold off showing it at E3 then until next year and just make a big showing of Space Marine for the console this year instead? That just seems pretty harsh to get people foaming at the mouth with an awesome teaser just to make you wait for 2+ years. Unless they have been working like mad on it for the last 2 years or so and are closer to release than we are being told currently. I hope that's the case anyhow.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

metallifan wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

They stated in interviews at e3 that have been posted in this exact thread multiple times that they are aiming for a release date of Q1 2013. Makes me kinda wonder what you guys are reading in this thread other than my and mellissas posts.

Everything else? Considering the debates about Sisters Fluff have gotten to be pretty annoying.

Moderator's pro tips for users:

Users who are not interested in Witch Hunters/SoB threads should just not read them.

If users keep dragging threads off topic, the Yellow Triangle is there for you to alert moderators.

If you find the posts of a specific user annoying, yet they aren't breaking the rules by posting off topic or rudely -- in other words if you have just taken a dislike to them -- the Ignore button is your friend.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for a while.

ShumaGorath wrote:

metallifan wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

They stated in interviews at e3 that have been posted in this exact thread multiple times that they are aiming for a release date of Q1 2013. Makes me kinda wonder what you guys are reading in this thread other than my and mellissas posts.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Melissia wrote:How is that bad? That means they'll have ~2.5 years to perfect it.

Not even, more like 1.5-2

THQs Fiscal year ends in March, so March 31st 2012 will be the end of FY12 for THQ (they are currently in FY11) so that means that anywhere from April 1 2012 to July 1st 2012 will be Q1 FY 13 for them.

I don't see how there is any confusion as to the YEAR this game is coming out, all it takes is to google THQs Fiscal Year and anyone can see that Q1 FY13 will be beginning April 1 2012 and ending July 1st 2012. Nothing about this timeframe speaks to an "Actual Year" 2013

One of the guys interviewed at E3 (can't remember which one) said they where hoping end of 2012 for release, but admited it might slip into early 2013.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:One of the guys interviewed at E3 (can't remember which one) said they where hoping end of 2012 for release, but admited it might slip into early 2013.

Daemon Archon apparently believes he was using THQs fiscal calender, and not the traditional one. A presumption that I find highly unlikely given the informal civilian media setting for the interview.

But the world is ending before 2013! What will we do with the update?! ;P

I wish they'd put some more people on the secondary army codexes, and publish them faster.

I still think they should have waited till E3 next year to reveal it, it would have made the wait seem so much shorter. I hope it is epic in a whole new way for such an anticipated title for people like ourselves but I'm also somewhat expecting to be let down because of the hype. Either way I suppose its just nice to see WH40k come to an MMO form I just hope Vigil does it justice.

So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

Clay Williams wrote:So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

*pics*

I'm disturbed by the lack of skulls...

Man the ork is not big enough and he does not have a slugga. the marines are right on for size

well from my job, i can tell you that shooting is realtime like ratchet and clank, and not point and click like WOW.

and that things already are looking different from that trailer

And what would be your job exactly?

Clay Williams wrote:So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

OMG
OMG
OMG That's pretty kewl. I'm probz gonna be even worse once I go jam in nottingham.
And the games looks kewlio. Bit peeved at only beserkers/nurgle daemons saying hello

The Dreadnote wrote:And what would be your job exactly?

3d artist, check my profile, im doing some modelling for the game, those trees by the warhound, me

Well, that's the most proof I'm likely to get over the internet. Keep the insider info coming

UltraPrime wrote:For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I stopped reading any thread on bols that could have any possibility of being linked to sisters. Its getting absurd

Kilkrazy wrote:Users who are not interested in Witch Hunters/SoB threads should just not read them.

If users keep dragging threads off topic, the Yellow Triangle is there for you to alert moderators.

If you find the posts of a specific user annoying, yet they aren't breaking the rules by posting off topic or rudely -- in other words if you have just taken a dislike to them -- the Ignore button is your friend.

Deal with it, people.

The Dreadnote wrote:Well, that's the most proof I'm likely to get over the internet. Keep the insider info coming

hmm, quite a good response, usually people dont realize that people on the internetz might have jobs concurring to the topic.

well all i can say thusfar is what you saw in the early trailer here isnt what the game looks like now, the engine has progressed more to allow much more, fun goodies

SweetLou wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:Well, that's the most proof I'm likely to get over the internet. Keep the insider info coming

hmm, quite a good response, usually people dont realize that people on the internetz might have jobs concurring to the topic.

well all i can say thusfar is what you saw in the early trailer here isnt what the game looks like now, the engine has progressed more to allow much more, fun goodies

Ahh. The early trailer. The one debuted four days ago.

Early.

Glad to know THQ was trailering several month old visual assets as new at the E3 trade show that ended on friday.

I believe it's fairly common for a demo build of a game to be quite far behind where the most recent build is when a trailer is released. Though a newer build may look prettier or whatever, it might not be stable enough for demo purposes.

Not that I'm especially well informed on the matter.

The Dreadnote wrote:I believe it's fairly common for a demo build of a game to be quite far behind where the most recent build is when a trailer is released. Though a newer build may look prettier or whatever, it might not be stable enough for demo purposes.

Not that I'm especially well informed on the matter.

What was shown at the show was also not a demo build, it was just a video of in engine gameplay and renders. You can make one of those in a day (Whereas demos can take months). There has as of yet been no dark millennium demo shown anywhere.

That's assuming you have some one immediately available to work on it.

Most time what is currently available to build the videos aren't whats most up to date. Its just what ever version is most easily disseminated and given to the person doing the work. When it comes to these things I think its perfectly reasonable to not expect the most up to date video.

sonofruss wrote:Man the ork is not big enough and he does not have a slugga.

Thats because he's a yoof...

He'll be much bigger once he is fully grown...

nevermind

Hey guys, just seen this on the E3 web site http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-dark-millenium/700742 dunno if it's already been posted (if it has sorry). Good footage although they seem to have amalgamated spacemarine in there as well. Nice shot of the Ultramarine in the background

darthmatty wrote:Hey guys, just seen this on the E3 web site http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-dark-millenium/700742 dunno if it's already been posted (if it has sorry). Good footage although they seem to have amalgamated spacemarine in there as well. Nice shot of the Ultramarine in the background

I love how half of the interviews pieced together by gametrailers feature footage and gamplay from the game space marine mixed in. It's as if they don't realize those are two different games.

SweetLou wrote:well from my job, i can tell you that shooting is realtime like ratchet and clank, and not point and click like WOW.

and that things already are looking different from that trailer

A fellow Vigilite? Nice! Sent a PM.

Wow, we have a lead dev from Vigil here on Dakka? Nice...

Darksiders was great!

not a lead dev, just a short term contract with them, working to get some random models made, mycontract is up friday :( then its on to my new job , newt will be fun to do

SweetLou wrote:not a lead dev, just a short term contract with them, working to get some random models made, mycontract is up friday :( then its on to my new job , newt will be fun to do

He ment Moopy. Moopy, any DakkaDakka exclusive tidbits of news on the game?

Redemption wrote:

SweetLou wrote:not a lead dev, just a short term contract with them, working to get some random models made, mycontract is up friday :( then its on to my new job , newt will be fun to do

He ment Moopy. Moopy, any DakkaDakka exclusive tidbits of news on the game?

Yes. It's going to be 7 kinds of awesome. ;D

All joking aside, I have to get permission before I can talk about anything particular. THQ is very strict about it right now, and that's understandable. None the less, I'll see if I can work out some sort of, "YOU HEARD IT HEAR FIRST!" posts when I've been given the green light.

Fair enough.

Friend of mine came up with something.

He plays america's army, where no matter what team you are on, the friendlies are marines and the enemies are russians or whatever.

theoretically the game /could/ make sense if when you are in an orc area, all the bad guys are orcs (assuming you are marines) or whatever.

Highly doubt it, but could tone back the possible absurdity of the idea of order/chaos

Too bad Vigil isn't hiring more artists.

I clearly need to get on a mod team that needs textures done...

Would also be helpful if I lived anywhere near Austin (gg 12 hours away).

Oh yea, more insider info when you can can't wait to hear more. Tell Joe and Paul they are my art heroes.

Moopy wrote:
All joking aside, I have to get permission before I can talk about anything particular. THQ is very strict about it right now, and that's understandable. None the less, I'll see if I can work out some sort of, "YOU HEARD IT HEAR FIRST!" posts when I've been given the green light.

I think the only question anyone wants answered right now is, is please tell us its more than two factions.

I'll say at my comfortable contract job for the army and keep away from the feast and famin of the gaming industry. You can still model and don't have to live in a shoe box in LA.

I was a little dissappointed with the polish of the video they had for DM. Hopefully the graphics will get a pick me up before final release.

I am more looking forward to space marine after what.... 5 years?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I think the only question anyone wants answered right now is, is please tell us its more than two factions.

Not really, it's already stated on the official website that the factions are Order vs Destruction.

I feel personally that its quite obvious how this game is going to be based and work

It will be based around the WOW style of doing MMO because that is singualrily the most popular / money making way of creating a mmo. so singualr character falling into the either good / evil side

I also feel certain races will be left out initally i.e. sisters, necrons and chaos deamons. This will form the 3rd so called faction to fight against for quests / missions like in wow and probably become playable later on in an expansion / expansions.

I also feel the titan in the video maybe world bosses like the giant elements in the opening area of the burning crusade of wow... where you cud party up and take them down but normally just tryed to avoid them.

These of cause are my inital views from the video.... and i feel tbh that wud be the best way to make a mmo for 40k .... squad based wud just be to difficult.... can you imagine trying to control 20 ork boys?

If they put at least half the dedication into this game that blizzard did it shud turn out gr8.... lets hope though they work out how to blance characters.... something unfortunately blizzard never quite got.

Moopy wrote:

Redemption wrote:

SweetLou wrote:not a lead dev, just a short term contract with them, working to get some random models made, mycontract is up friday :( then its on to my new job , newt will be fun to do

He ment Moopy. Moopy, any DakkaDakka exclusive tidbits of news on the game?

Yes. It's going to be 7 kinds of awesome. ;D

All joking aside, I have to get permission before I can talk about anything particular. THQ is very strict about it right now, and that's understandable. None the less, I'll see if I can work out some sort of, "YOU HEARD IT HEAR FIRST!" posts when I've been given the green light.

Also, seeing is how THQ already got their panties up in a bunch form that "concept art leak" from a year and a half ago, I would be quite sure that your bosses-bosses-boss approves of any 'newsleaks' here on Dakka. I've heard of a good deal of Mythic employees who got in a great deal of trouble over patch bug fix information >_<

Redemption wrote:
Not really, it's already stated on the official website that the factions are Order vs Destruction.

Yeah we know, but there is no clarification on races there, it could be Imperial factions and Chaos factions for all we know. If its orks alongside Chaos, we still want to hear it from Vigil themselves, and there seem to be many folks already planning to try and convince them to not go down the same road as Mythic as they fear it will lead to the same problems and fail.

Redemption wrote:
and there seem to be many folks already planning to try and convince them to not go down the same road as Mythic as they fear it will lead to the same problems and fail.

Those people wouldn't understand what the real problems with WAR were then, really. There were some balance issues to be sure but that wasn't what really caused the game to fail.

Where was all this whining and moaning when GW has done two factions with almost identical line-ups? Seems like one of the silliest things to complain about really, not when there is so much more that could possibly go wrong.

Oh stability issues was the other big issue with WaR for sure, one of the things I like about Vigil is they've spent time getting the engine running right before going mad on content.

However if you followed the WaR forums over its time, you would know one of the main factors was the balancing repairs attempted by Mythic to solve the Server imbalances that directly led to many people leaving the game. As it seemed every attempt to solve the issue made it worse.

Ironic when you consider they had figured out the best system for heavy PvP styled games with DAoC.


To be fair, I think the game will be fine two factions or not. I'm not one of those campaigning because of the lack of multiple factions, but I can see the issues they are raising.

I just hope Vigil have a better back up plan than Mythic if a huge percentage of the player base choose one side over the other.

Another interview at BOLS if you guys haven't seen yet: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/06/e3-thq-dark-millennium-interview.html

Sounds cool, they already have a "battleground" up and running which is a good thing imo. Battlegrounds in addition to fighting over territory in game (that is rumored) should be fun.

A friend of mine is playing WAR again, and while we both agree that it will never recover from its mistakes in the past, I guess he thinks it is pretty decently balanced now, easier to get items, and more active in most tiers. I might check it out again after I finish all the other games I am playing.

One issue with copying WoW is we already have WoW and it's got an impressive network effect...

Given the most recent interview, in the 40k MMO there will be only sausage.

However if you followed the WaR forums over its time, you would know one of the main factors was the balancing repairs attempted by Mythic to solve the Server imbalances that directly led to many people leaving the game. As it seemed every attempt to solve the issue made it worse.

Just felt like catching this quote.

The vast majority of an MMOs userbase does not participate in either its forums nor it's administrator run bug or issue report systems. Forums are a crystal clear window into how a distilled and obsessive userbase feels about changes or alterations to a game, but their opinions are typically irrelevant and without the necessary perspective to understand the broader game.

WAR died because of stability issues, highly visible bugs that remained for months (monster pathing was broken a month after launch which is deplorable), ludicrously high system requirements for the rather poor visuals (it was keeping up with WoW, a four year old game), and gameplay that was basically just world of warcraft but with the problems I mentioned above.

One issue with copying WoW is we already have WoW and it's got an impressive network effect...

Theres a belief running in business and developer communities that a more modern successor to WoW that copies most of it's credentials in a different setting with updated graphics could easily do quite well. There is an appreciable flight from WoW every time a major competing MMO is launched, and a game that managed to be bug free and good has every chance of keeping those players.

Melissia wrote:Given the most recent interview, in the 40k MMO there will be only sausage.

Hrm. So apparently I misread something in the interview here.

The sentence said "you don't have to start out as a human", and for whatever reason I read it to indicate there are none.

Still doesn't confirm humans in the game however, but hopefully we'll get some info on that.

Mythic's customer service sucked big-time, too.

Heck I'd be happy to play it even if it was just something simple like Mafia Wars or Farmville on facebook. It's all about the art and the fluff when it comes to video games. (also I only play free games, and my computer would probably punch me if I tried to make it handle any shooter more complicated than Wolfenstein 3-D)

Karon wrote:I'm going to re-post this, since some of the information was brought up, and some may not have saw it

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=606969

Playable factions:

* Imperium
* Eldar
* Orks
* Chaos

BTW, playing Warhammer Online gave me so much that I will play Warhammer tabletop with more enthusiasm, more understanding (esp. where all fractions come from, as I travelled their homelands) and more ideas of how terrain should look like.
The concept sketch gallery alone makes the game priceless ( http://www.war-europe.com/#/conceptart/?lang=de ).

Melissia wrote:

Melissia wrote:Given the most recent interview, in the 40k MMO there will be only sausage.

Hrm. So apparently I misread something in the interview here.

The sentence said "you don't have to start out as a human", and for whatever reason I read it to indicate there are none.

Still doesn't confirm humans in the game however, but hopefully we'll get some info on that.

That assumes deception and I really don't think there was any. They said so much nothing I doubt they'd want to deceive him with that.

I thought the BoLS interview was a bit lame. Its the guy talking about the "experience" of meeting but he doesn't actually interview them, he just chats. I understand he didn't want to push too hard, but he could have asked a number of questions about the game that didn't get too much into how it plays or what factions you play as. He could have asked about the games setting; "is it only one planet?" or "what type of world?" Vehicles? He could have commented and sought comment on the Warhound? He could have asked what their goals were for system requirements. He could have asked how long they'd been in development.

Kroothawk wrote:

Karon wrote:I'm going to re-post this, since some of the information was brought up, and some may not have saw it

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=606969

Playable factions:

* Imperium
* Eldar
* Orks
* Chaos

Dark Eldar would seem appropriate for a more direct balancing out of the Destruction and Order by being parallel to Eldar. This may either be something they embrace or shy away from.
Nids are the PVE race and Necron seem equally suited in that role. That leaves the Tau and Inquisition. Seeing as Tau border the eastern and not southern portion of the Imperium any attempt to bring them in would be rather forced. The inquisition has enough diversity to almost be its own game, so it'd be interesting to see what they might do beyond SoB and Grey Knights.

Also according to it no vehicles, until an expansion.

THQ Press release wrote:
-Focus both on Melee and Long range Combat
- covering system
- 29 Zones (21 claimable, 8 invadeable)
- Open-World
- PvP around resource gathering and taking strategic points
- center zone features a conquerable stronghold
- Tyranids as full fighting PvE-Faction

This really does make it sound like it will bring some RTS elements with strategic points and resource gathering. The covering system sounds like it'd be something similar to that in DOW2. The choice to make Nid's the PVE race seemed like a straight forward one... I'd guess that necrons would be another logical PVE race.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Mythic's customer service sucked big-time, too.

All MMO customer service sucks. Ever tried getting good customer service out of an NC Soft game? Long distance troubleshooting customer service sucks in everything.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Mythic's customer service sucked big-time, too.

All MMO customer service sucks. Ever tried getting good customer service out of an NC Soft game? Long distance troubleshooting customer service sucks in everything.

Hate on WoW aside, I've always had good experiences with Blizzard CustServ in re: WoW when I was playing.

To be fair, the most common solution was adding days of game time to my current account, but when I have a problem that annoys me for 10-15 minutes and get a day or more of 'free' game time to compensate, I'd call that a fair trade. Would I have preferred no problem at all? Sure. But, replacing my lost game time with more game time seemed a reasonable response.

I did, too. That was one of the places they did good on, though that might have just been because I knew one of the customer service people personally and could chat with her over Steam, heh.

From the BoLS screenshot of the Ork camp, that is eerily reminiscent of mob camps in any number of MMOs I've played.

It could well be that Orks are another PVE race. Then again, they were featured often in the trailer and are one of the more popular factions.

I hope they're playable. I deeply enjoyed the Orc race in WAR.

Well. I know I'm playing dark eldar!

I could see a Daemonic Incursion location for PvE

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Mythic's customer service sucked big-time, too.

All MMO customer service sucks. Ever tried getting good customer service out of an NC Soft game? Long distance troubleshooting customer service sucks in everything.

Mythic really had no interest in shooting my trouble at all, though. In fact, I would almost go so far as to say that there customer service was non-existent.

Aye the credit card thing was probably the other big downfall with WaR to be fair.

Never screw your user base, and if it happens, never ever stick with the same company and let them do it again.


@shuma - yeah I know the forums are not really a high percentage of the user base, but when you look at the numbers that shifted faction after each attempt to fix, it was a factor for at least some.

Bugs where a big pain though, oh and lack of decent endgame content. Mythic just screwed up bigtime when you look at all.

Part of the reason I have one eye on SWToR is I want to see if Bioware launch in a better shape than most other MMO's in the past three years.

I just peed my pants.