asimo77 wrote:Also if something's purpose/function is to entertain then it's art?
Yes.
A beautiful piece of art is entertaining (in the classical sense). For example, in times past many parties were thrown at an artist's studio, so that guests could come and look at the artwork and be entertained by the works of art they saw there.
I can't speak for past gallery viewers, but if I were to enjoy some art it would be to be moved, not entertained. If I sought entertainment I'd play a video game or get some 40k going, something like that.
The art that simply entertains and doesn't move you is probably not such great art
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh man we just turned it up to 11
If you are moved by a war film that's brutal and horrific but still has a poignant message, you'd call that entertainment?
Usually entertainment involves feeling good in the end, art doesn't have to, but learning something never has to "feel good".
Though I would say that the act of learning itself is enough to warrant a pleasant mood. But that mood may only come after some seriours cognitive dissaonce caused by a graphic film. But that film that ultimatley changes your perspective in the end.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know I think that the fundamental difference in our opinions is that you believe that simply being highly entertaining warrants something being art.
I cannot agree with that position and I don't think either of us is going to be converted to the other side. If you want to stop this discussion I'm fine with that. If not I'll respond to further posts to the best of my ability, though I can't gaurantee anything.
I never considered violence and feeling sick to your stomach as entertainment. I don't think all pieces of human creativity are worthwhile, and I don't think something can be art if it isn't worthwhile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also something that's boring isn't entertainment, but there are boring things that are considered art, I think you even mentioned an example of one way back.
asimo77 wrote:You know I think that the fundamental difference in our opinions is that you believe that simply being highly entertaining warrants something being art.
I cannot agree with that position and I don't think either of us is going to be converted to the other side. If you want to stop this discussion I'm fine with that. If not I'll respond to further posts to the best of my ability, though I can't gaurantee anything.
That's why I said this. This topic isn't going to go far very far since we are both adamant in our opinions and I'm willing to end the thread if you like. In fact I don't even know what the question is anymore. What is art? Are games art? What do I think is art? I think the topic needs more guidance/moderation if this discussion is going to go be beyond me saying "art is X" and you say "no its Y"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh btw when I wrote "that's what I'm getting at" I meant I agree with Monster Rain's following statement: "Art can be entertaining. Not everything made solely for the purpose of entertainment is art."
The original post was a discussion on the necessity of complex characters in stories, most specifically video game stories, but it could be argued for stories in general.
It's not like every single Shakespeare character-- not even all of the greats-- are extremely complex characters. Sometimes people are simple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
asimo77 wrote:Oh btw when I wrote "that's what I'm getting at" I meant I agree with ███████ ████'s following statement: "███ ███ ██ ████████████. ███ ██████████ ████ ██████ ███ ███ ███████ ██ █████████████ ██ ███."
Hurm characterization seems like a whole other topic. I wonder how this thread strayed this far...ah who am I kidding it was probably my fault!
I think it went something like this: we got to arguing if characterization even mattered in games; based on the assumption that the stories themselves weren't good.
That turned into "can games have good stories"
Then we got to equating good stories with art. And are games art based on the stories.
Then does art equal entertainment, then we got here.
Anyway I think the blank slate is the best video-game PC you can do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why are chunks of the quote censored? Or is my computer just going crazy.
I meant to say that not everything that is very entertaining is art. And not everything that is artful is entertaining, but many things that are artful may be.
I dunno what my favorite character is... I am a bit partial to Duke Nukem, and he's about as simple as one can get. But then that's mostly because I find him hilarious, like a parody. Hell, his upcoming game doesn't even give him a health bar-- he has an ego bar, and he doesn't die as long as his ego is fine.
asimo77 wrote:@ Manchu, I'm not going to lie I don't really know what you just said but my guess would be: art is safe to ignore and everything else is just trash anyway?
Nah, I meant people use the term art for things that no longer offend or really stimulate them in any other way. Some people refer to rap as art these days, for example.
Manchu wrote: Some people refer to rap as art these days, for example.
Those bastards.....
OT: I think that games CAN be art, but only a few of them are.
Spoiler:
Bioshock for instance. I think Bioshock IS art, but no because of the story. In fact, Bioshock would have been rather weak if it not have been for a little three word phrase we are all too familiar with: Would You Kindly. If anyone can honestly tell me they weren't shocked and horrified at the WYK reveal and the 9-iron scene, I will set up my computer, eat my hat, record it, and post it on Youtube. The fact that A) we weren't actually in control of our character, B) We didn't know that we weren't in control of our character, and C) We were forced to watch our character brutalize another, and we couldn't stop it, all boiled down into a very, very thought provoking moment. If it hadn't been for that underlying story component, Bioshock wouldn't have been that special.
Also, Brutal Legend is a work of Art to me, because it made me love real music. I used to listen to Nu Metal thinking I was badass, but after playing Brutal Legend.... yeah, I can't stand Korn, Distrubed, or A7X so much any more....
asimo77 wrote:@ Manchu, I'm not going to lie I don't really know what you just said but my guess would be: art is safe to ignore and everything else is just trash anyway?
Nah, I meant people use the term art for things that no longer offend or really stimulate them in any other way. Some people refer to rap as art these days, for example.
I agree with your sentiments. BioShock was indeed a work of art and it's relevance (note, not characterization) as art owes a great deal to the aspects you mentioned. Two things to keep in mind: (1) the work that makes its audience aware of the medium isn't necessarily art (that's just a very "in" way of thinking--everything is referential, and especially self-referential) and (2) "art" is not a label for something that is well-done (as per the colloquialism) so I can say that BioShock was a rather poor piece of art.
I agree with your sentiments. BioShock was indeed a work of art and it's relevance (note, not characterization) as art owes a great deal to the aspects you mentioned. Two things to keep in mind: (1) the work that makes its audience aware of the medium isn't necessarily art (that's just a very "in" way of thinking--everything is referential, and especially self-referential) and (2) "art" is not a label for something that is well-done (as per the colloquialism) so I can say that BioShock was a rather poor piece of art.
Ah, fair enough.
I agree. Bioshock was a rather poor piece of art, but can you imagine how amazing the good artsy video games are going to be when they start coming out?
One of the creators of ICO and Shadow of the Colossus said in an interview: (Team Ico designer Fumito Ueda)
"My team and I are making a game which is close to art -- that's what people say. Personally I don't think that way. We're making a game to entertain people. Sometimes my personality and my team's might be reflected on the game, and it might look like art, but it is a game to entertain people. That kind of feedback is welcome but it's not what I'm trying to achieve."
Daba wrote:One of the creators of ICO and Shadow of the Colossus said in an interview: (Team Ico designer Fumito Ueda)
"My team and I are making a game which is close to art -- that's what people say. Personally I don't think that way. We're making a game to entertain people. Sometimes my personality and my team's might be reflected on the game, and it might look like art, but it is a game to entertain people. That kind of feedback is welcome but it's not what I'm trying to achieve."
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:To me when a game makes you stop and stare, just look around at what it is showing you at that moment.Thats got to be somekind of art in my mind.
Monster Rain wrote:That just sounds like humility to me.
Well, I'm not sure from what I read of it. He directly contradicts the point and specifically says that it was not their intent.
I don't really think 'Art' can be judged until years afterwards, and it should have lasting power. Things like Shakespeare were entertainment at the time; sculptures and paintings were commissioned and sponsored by patrons for their own benefit and not to express any 'creativity' originally.
In effect, games may do this but we (the gamers) are the patrons.
The other thing about games is they are games and need to be centred around the player.
Melissia wrote:So what? It doesn't have to be one's intent to create art. Sometimes it just happen.s
It's usually better that way.
I think the thing is this: What is art is to be judged by others/later generations. For the now, you satisfy your patrons. Aiming to only satisfy yourself is less likely to stand the test of time.
Put it this way: As a game developer, you must make something to entertain the gamer (as they won't play your game if it doesn't). Whether it is judged as art or not isn't your concern; the satisfaction of those playing the game is - your stylisation can help their enjoyment (which lends itself well to SoTC for example); when it detracts you need to rethink.
