Indeed, that sounds right, and would probably be keeping with the GW theme for the fluff.

Lol. Assault marines with D-eagles...lol

Hashbeth wrote:But the issue is the perforated ends, as Templar said. Even at only a scant 10 mph, the bolt with an explosive acceleration can lead to the speed, and absorb much of the recoil. The issue is, are the recoil compensators at the end of the barrel good at their job. No reason for them not to be.

Really the issue comes down to how fast a bolt needs to travel to be at combat effectiveness. If we know this, we can decide if the recoil is too great, or if the recoil compensators can deal with the force.

It's called a "muzzle break" and chances are very good that they indeed are functional. But that doesn't meant that what is comfortable for an Astartes to fire scales to an unaugmented IG. The fact that IG do, in fact, fire bolters. Therefore I'd offer that the issue lies with the individual in deciding how exactly that effect is achieved and creating whatever fluff they want to support it...

Its unfortunant that we don't know the weight of a bolt round after its fired. that would give us a chance at calculating its force, and therefore killing power.

chrome desert eagles...or 24K gold...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Its unfortunant that we don't know the weight of a bolt round after its fired. that would give us a chance at calculating its force, and therefore killing power.

Lol! It's killing power is ST4 AP5!

ForgottenRealm wrote:chrome desert eagles...or 24K gold...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Its unfortunant that we don't know the weight of a bolt round after its fired. that would give us a chance at calculating its force, and therefore killing power.

Lol! It's killing power is ST4 AP5!

LOL!

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course they're gyrojets

So because something has ONE similarity and is glaringly different in every other way, it's the same?

Ronin-Sage wrote:It in a logical world, it would indeed be tricky to have bolters being low-recoil AND effective even at point-blank range but frankly, 40k writers, GW, and whoever can pretty much ignore logic, the laws of physics, etc. when it comes to fluff.

Which basically amounts to "I don't like the idea of boltguns having lots of recoil so I'm just gonna say science fiction!, throw my hands up, and hope you accept it".

We have official recent sources saying it has high recoil.

It's like that grey knights bathing in the blood of Sisters to keep themselves pure thing. A lot of people don't like it, but it IS canon.

or how each and every bolt in their guns is consecrated with the blood of an innocent person. Which just goes to show you GKs do some messed up stuff to be as awesome as they are.

Deathsadvocate wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course they're gyrojets

So because something has ONE similarity and is glaringly different in every other way, it's the same?

Ronin-Sage wrote:It in a logical world, it would indeed be tricky to have bolters being low-recoil AND effective even at point-blank range but frankly, 40k writers, GW, and whoever can pretty much ignore logic, the laws of physics, etc. when it comes to fluff.

Which basically amounts to "I don't like the idea of boltguns having lots of recoil so I'm just gonna say science fiction!, throw my hands up, and hope you accept it".

We have official recent sources saying it has high recoil.

It's like that grey knights bathing in the blood of Sisters to keep themselves pure thing. A lot of people don't like it, but it IS canon.

or how each and every bolt in their guns is consecrated with the blood of an innocent person. Which just goes to show you GKs do some messed up stuff to be as awesome as they are.

*sigh

more inaccurate views spawned from the internet. Just because you see it on 4chan doesn't make it true

Psybolts require small portions of the essence of psykers. This essence is collected as a byproduct of the Golden Throne, run off from the psykers sacrificed to keep the Emperor going. the same product is used in Psykout grenades.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolter

Really, this thread needs info that does not exist in the fluff. We need bolter terminal speeds, the weight of a bolter post second ignition, the initial charge strength, etc.

Until we find that info, we cannot know. And as there are sources with multiple opinions on the bolters recoil (I mean hell, the m1 garand packs one heck of a punch, so I'd say it has high recoil, but it won't break my body. And not every source says they blow peoples' arms off) then we just need to wait for info that we'll likely never get.

The issue, mostly, is that I don't think the bolter HAS to have high recoil. That is not a requirement, from what I can see, of the boltgun's design. Rather, it MAY have high recoil, which turns this into an argument about who-said-what.

I really wish GW put out a technical specifications book like there is for other Sci-fi settings.

They could make tons of money from it I am sure.

Yes, but as there is so much "sci-fi magickery" in 40k (not that I'm complaining), it would be hard, I'd think. It'd be cool, but they also retcon alot, and a new codex might mean that the bolter suddenly drops to str 3, AP6 (we'd all start crying/protesting), which could mean a complete rework of the system.

But yeah, it would be cool

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:It would still penetrate, because

a, It is a .75 caliber round with a diamondite tip.

going at a low velocity against armor designed to resist bullets going at a much greater velocity.

If at point blank range it couldn't penetrate flak armour, there would be a lot of hilarious failed execution attempts by commissars whose rounds ping off helmets.

Luckily, there is no reason it has to be at low velocity post second ignition ^ ^

Hashbeth wrote:Luckily, there is no reason it has to be at low velocity post second ignition ^ ^

Or unluckily...depends if a commissar is yelling at you.

In addition to the physics analysis where recoil is concerned in this thread, my intent in posting the videos was to show that even with 21st century technology, we can mitigate recoil to tolerable levels. 38 thousand years hence, the physics we concern ourselves with as seemingly insurmountable might, in fact, not pose any limit at all by then... unless the powers that be want it that way. In an era where worlds can be moved, gravitic propulsion systems exist, and suits of armor despite the fact that they are impregnable aren't knocked over like tin cans by large explosions (turning the occupant to mush) in accordance with our present knowledge of the physical universe, this seems plausible reason why weapon recoil still exists.

No one cares about the billions of guardsmen as they are just so much cannon (canon? ) fodder. They are given powerful weapons to be sure, but far below what could be produced by the IoM even in its decrepit state because of DOGMA!

I think it is also true, that the Marines for various reasons WANT there to be tremendous recoil left in the weapon for a very fundamental reason. The Bolter is the marines iconic weapon. Much like the lance of a knight or the katana of a Samurai. The weapon itself signifies far more than its use as a weapon of war it identifies the user. In that role as an icon, the recoil is left undiminished because it separates an Astartes from the 'lesser' warriors found elsewhere in the Imperium.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited because I can't spell.

Ok, I give up on editing... sheesh.

Uhlan wrote:In addition to the physics analysis where recoil is concerned in this thread, my intent in posting the videos was to show that even with 21st century technology, we can mitigate recoil to tolerable levels. 38 thousand years hence, the physics we concern ourselves with as seemingly insurmountable might, in fact, not pose any limit at all by then... unless the powers that be want it that way. In an era where worlds can be moved, gravitic propulsion systems exist, and suits of armor despite the fact that they are impregnable aren't knocked over like tin cans by large explosions (turning the occupant to mush) in accordance with our present knowledge of the physical universe, this seems plausible reason why weapon recoil still exists.

No one cares about the billions of guardsmen as they are just so much cannon (canon? ) fodder. They are given powerful weapons to be sure, but far below what could be produced by the IoM even in its decrepit state because of DOGMA!

I think it is also true, that the Marines for various reasons WANT there to be tremendous recoil left in the weapon for a very fundamental reason. The Bolter is the marines iconic weapon. Much like the lance of a knight or the katana of a Samurai. The weapon itself signifies far more than its use as a weapon of war it identifies the user. In that role as an icon, the recoil is left undiminished because it separates an Astartes from the 'lesser' warriors found elsewhere in the Imperium.

Just my 2 cents.

Agreed. Their armour compensates for the recoil anyways.

Thats the main issue with the recoil on bolters. they don't need to have compensators because the typical users of the weapon can handle it.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats the main issue with the recoil on bolters. they don't need to have compensators because the typical users of the weapon can handle it.

Ya.

Hashbeth wrote:Really, this thread needs info that does not exist in the fluff. We need bolter terminal speeds, the weight of a bolter post second ignition, the initial charge strength, etc.

Until we find that info, we cannot know. And as there are sources with multiple opinions on the bolters recoil (I mean hell, the m1 garand packs one heck of a punch, so I'd say it has high recoil, but it won't break my body. And not every source says they blow peoples' arms off) then we just need to wait for info that we'll likely never get.

The issue, mostly, is that I don't think the bolter HAS to have high recoil. That is not a requirement, from what I can see, of the boltgun's design. Rather, it MAY have high recoil, which turns this into an argument about who-said-what.

'xactly.

We lack lots of specifics here - but we do have one information, and that is who can use these guns. Guardsmen and Commissars don't seem to have that much of a problem with it, which (given the lack of any evidence for massive recoil in studio material) should automatically mean that there just isn't so much of a force that would make the weapon totally unbearable for a human user of average or higher strength. Which also fits to how this weaponry was explained by GW ("low velocity", "blast compensators").

I mean, where's the logic in coming up with assumptions conjured out of thin air (given that we lack the necessary technical details from the setting) when the end result of this speculation results in a different image than the one we are being shown by GW? If we want detailed explanations, should we not rather look for solutions that replicate what is actually said in the books and help tie everything together, rather than creating conflicts where none need to exist?

And as for these sources about "bolters blowing peoples' arms off" (what, really?) ... well ... I'm sure you've read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blogpost on the subject of novel canonicity (and accuracy).

Not sure if these sources have been brought up.

Imperial Munitorum Manual, Pg. 74, 'Grenade Launcher'
"When preparing to pull the trigger, a Guardsman must first brace himself with a wide-legged stance, as the recoil from a grenade launcher is significant, comparable to that of a boltgun, and recoil injuries are common amongst Guardsmen unfamiliar with the weapon's power."


Imperial Munitorum Manual, Pg. 65, 'Boltgun'
"... generally only carried by stocky individuals of great strength given that they are incredibly heavy and generate enormous recoil when they fire..."

- Imperial Munitorum Manual, Graham McNeil, 2007.



The Cadian Pattern Grenade Launcher is further described as a 40mm grenade launcher in the same book. The M79, Milkor MGL (M32), and the M203, among others, are all real life 40mm grenade launchers. There are youtube videos of these weapons being operated, showing significant, but not unmanageable, recoil. The M79 has a rubber pad that goes along the shoulder to absorb some of that kick, similar to some 12ga shotguns. The M32 has a rapid fire setting, allowing the entire 6 grenade cylinder to be unloaded in 6 seconds. I imagine that, from an operator's standpoint, the M32 is the closest approximation of the three for a 40k boltgun's recoil, and while I've personally never seen an M32, there are plenty of videos on youtube of them being operated, in a controlled fashion, by trained operators.

That being said, hand one to a 9mm cowboy, and I can easily see a dislocated shoulder happening. When I was a teen, one of my friends tore a tendon in his shoulder (Teres Minor, IIRC) when he fired a 12ga one handed, and I believe that grenade launchers (and, by extension, Bolters) easily beat 12ga's in the recoil department.

Stormfather wrote:Not sure if these sources have been brought up.

Imperial Munitorum Manual, Pg. 74, 'Grenade Launcher'
"When preparing to pull the trigger, a Guardsman must first brace himself with a wide-legged stance, as the recoil from a grenade launcher is significant, comparable to that of a boltgun, and recoil injuries are common amongst Guardsmen unfamiliar with the weapon's power."


Imperial Munitorum Manual, Pg. 65, 'Boltgun'
"... generally only carried by stocky individuals of great strength given that they are incredibly heavy and generate enormous recoil when they fire..."

- Imperial Munitorum Manual, Graham McNeil, 2007.



The Cadian Pattern Grenade Launcher is further described as a 40mm grenade launcher in the same book. The M79, Milkor MGL (M32), and the M203, among others, are all real life 40mm grenade launchers. There are youtube videos of these weapons being operated, showing significant, but not unmanageable, recoil. The M79 has a rubber pad that goes along the shoulder to absorb some of that kick, similar to some 12ga shotguns. The M32 has a rapid fire setting, allowing the entire 6 grenade cylinder to be unloaded in 6 seconds. I imagine that, from an operator's standpoint, the M32 is the closest approximation of the three for a 40k boltgun's recoil, and while I've personally never seen an M32, there are plenty of videos on youtube of them being operated, in a controlled fashion, by trained operators.

I love this post. FACTS!!!!!

Thanks Stormfather (walks off to the world of Youtube)