45703
Post by: Lynata
If one limits the meaning of the term "corruption" to space magicks... By itself, however, corruption extends beyond this. Imperial citizens get corrupted by Tau propaganda, Imperial nobles get corrupted by their greed, the genes of Hive workers get corrupted by industrial pollution, ...
Especially in 40k, this term is applied just as liberal as "heresy".
I also still don't quite agree on this supposed difference between "warp corruption" and a "coerced fall". When warp corruption ends up twisting your mind that's just as coerced.
Oh, and in the case of Miriael Sabathiel ...
Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.
or
He paused and looked at the Canoness and her guards. "A Battle Sister of the Order of the Martyred lady", he emphasised. "A Battle Sister... corrupted."
The three veiled women remained silent.
"I knew this was impossible", Curtz went on. "Absolutely impossible. Your kind - forgive me, great lady - your kind are incorruptible. I made a careful study of the archives to reinforce my opinion. History shows us many horrors, but never a Battle Sister fallen. That was when I realised it was a sham. Lunacy in fact. I suspected that it was matter of blasphemy. You are no doubt aware that the Pyrus Reach is greatly conflicted of late. Terrible times, and the poison of it, I’m glad to say, is slow to reach us. Sometimes being a backwater has its benefits. I supposed that some miscreant desired to stain the Order’s name by committing these crimes, to engender unrest and panic. I sent the reports to alert you to the defamation."
The above is from Abnett's story that introduced the character, accompanying her first appearance in studio material.
The "incorruptible" stuff was also mentioned in the Codex and several WD articles, by the way, which would make it a pretty damn retcon when this suddenly happens every second Tuesday.
That said, one still has the option to interpret the GK stuff simply as corruption in a way that drove the Sisters mad and caused them to open fire on each other, which isn't nearly as bad as if they'd have truly turned to Chaos whilst preserving their intelligence and all (aka copying Miriael).
46198
Post by: heresy4life
Ref the Night Lords finding the footage of Curze's assasination being a victory.
They dont have youtube in the 41st Millennium?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
*yawn*
They can be corrupted and not fall. One is not the other. They are not interchangeable.
Just like Kasrkin is not interchangeable for Stormtrooper.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Lynata wrote:If one limits the meaning of the term "corruption" to space magicks... By itself, however, corruption extends beyond this. Imperial citizens get corrupted by Tau propaganda, Imperial nobles get corrupted by their greed, the genes of Hive workers get corrupted by industrial pollution, ...
Especially in 40k, this term is applied just as liberal as "heresy".
I also still don't quite agree on this supposed difference between "warp corruption" and a "coerced fall". When warp corruption ends up twisting your mind that's just as coerced.
Oh, and in the case of Miriael Sabathiel ...
Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.
or
He paused and looked at the Canoness and her guards. "A Battle Sister of the Order of the Martyred lady", he emphasised. "A Battle Sister... corrupted."
The three veiled women remained silent.
"I knew this was impossible", Curtz went on. "Absolutely impossible. Your kind - forgive me, great lady - your kind are incorruptible. I made a careful study of the archives to reinforce my opinion. History shows us many horrors, but never a Battle Sister fallen. That was when I realised it was a sham. Lunacy in fact. I suspected that it was matter of blasphemy. You are no doubt aware that the Pyrus Reach is greatly conflicted of late. Terrible times, and the poison of it, I’m glad to say, is slow to reach us. Sometimes being a backwater has its benefits. I supposed that some miscreant desired to stain the Order’s name by committing these crimes, to engender unrest and panic. I sent the reports to alert you to the defamation."
The above is from Abnett's story that introduced the character, accompanying her first appearance in studio material.
The "incorruptible" stuff was also mentioned in the Codex and several WD articles, by the way, which would make it a pretty damn retcon when this suddenly happens every second Tuesday.
That said, one still has the option to interpret the GK stuff simply as corruption in a way that drove the Sisters mad and caused them to open fire on each other, which isn't nearly as bad as if they'd have truly turned to Chaos whilst preserving their intelligence and all (aka copying Miriael).
Long before there was a Ward I bought a tome called Inquis Extermintus. It's a lovely art book of 40k art. Within are some really awesome panels from some comic I don't know. It features SoBs being mutated into beast-women because of a warp rift. I don't know the story but I'm pretty sure they didn't worship chaos. They just got shot in the face with some warp lightning.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:*yawn*
They can be corrupted and not fall. One is not the other. They are not interchangeable.
-->
Lynata wrote:You can be corrupted without falling, but you cannot fall without being corrupted.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Long before there was a Ward I bought a tome called Inquis Extermintus. It's a lovely art book of 40k art. Within are some really awesome panels from some comic I don't know. It features SoBs being mutated into beast-women because of a warp rift. I don't know the story but I'm pretty sure they didn't worship chaos. They just got shot in the face with some warp lightning.
Well, Black Library =/= GW canon. Just look at how Xenology wants you to believe that Tau have feet instead of hooves.
I'm assuming the comic would be Daemonifuge, a BL graphic novel of outstanding graphical quality, whose plot included an entire Order of SoB turned to Chaos? [ Image]
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Post by: Kanluwen
Xenology wants you to believe that Ethereals have feet instead of hooves.
It's almost like there might actually be different evolutionary pathways or evidence of genetic tampering in the Tau bloodlines!
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Lynata wrote:Kanluwen wrote:*yawn*
They can be corrupted and not fall. One is not the other. They are not interchangeable.
-->
Lynata wrote:You can be corrupted without falling, but you cannot fall without being corrupted.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Long before there was a Ward I bought a tome called Inquis Extermintus. It's a lovely art book of 40k art. Within are some really awesome panels from some comic I don't know. It features SoBs being mutated into beast-women because of a warp rift. I don't know the story but I'm pretty sure they didn't worship chaos. They just got shot in the face with some warp lightning.
Well, Black Library =/= GW canon. Just look at how Xenology wants you to believe that Tau have feet instead of hooves.
I'm assuming the comic would be Daemonifuge, a BL graphic novel of outstanding graphical quality, whose plot included an entire Order of SoB turned to Chaos? [ Image]
Probably. So an entire order goes over to chaos? Uh oh. So much for that "only one Sister has fallen" thing.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Daemonifuge? "Outstanding"?
We must not have read the same piece. That was such an abomination that it only could have been pre-Goto.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:Xenology wants you to believe that Ethereals have feet instead of hooves.
It's almost like there might actually be different evolutionary pathways or evidence of genetic tampering in the Tau bloodlines!
Or like that BL author didn't take a look at the actual Ethereal miniature produced by GW!
KamikazeCanuck wrote:So an entire order goes over to chaos? Uh oh. So much for that "only one Sister has fallen" thing.
Actually, there's far more examples of these things happening in Black Library stuff - but those (including Daemonifuge) have already been named on the first pages of this thread, I think. In the end, each such author represents an "alternative version" of the setting, as George Mann described it. 
Kanluwen wrote:Daemonifuge? "Outstanding"?
We must not have read the same piece. That was such an abomination that it only could have been pre-Goto.
Hum? I have no criticism whatsoever regarding the artworks. But of course art always lies in the eye of the beholder.
If you're referring to the story ... I dunno, had its ups and downs. Overall, it was at least an enjoyable read and involved some cool twists. Not to mention that many factions had "guest appearances" throughout Ephrael's odyssey, which is kind of cool.
Certainly a refreshing break from most BL novels, if only because it did not feature Marines for a change. Yeah, I'm biased in that aspect. 
25622
Post by: necrongod
the Horus heresy books. I'd say a majority of those books have the bad guys winning
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Lynata wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Xenology wants you to believe that Ethereals have feet instead of hooves.
It's almost like there might actually be different evolutionary pathways or evidence of genetic tampering in the Tau bloodlines!
Or like that BL author didn't take a look at the actual Ethereal miniature produced by GW!
It's funny, because the Beefcake Twins have almost exactly the same structure for their feet as the illustration.
Crazy!
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:It's funny, because the Beefcake Twins have almost exactly the same structure for their feet as the illustration.
It's funny because it isn't true!
(protip: perhaps look for minis without shoes)
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Post by: Kanluwen
I point and laugh at your remote linking forbidden.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: if they have hooves, why bother with shoes?
45703
Post by: Lynata
There, should be fixed now - it's now a picture from GW's own website.
Kanluwen wrote:Also: if they have hooves, why bother with shoes?
"Armour" or simply decoration, I guess?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Aun'shi is the model you picked? Really?
I'm amused. Mainly because he was removed from the codex for a reason--that reason being that they didn't like his fluff, which made him out to be some kind of commie samurai.
38678
Post by: Blackhoof
i dont think that aun'shi counts, not being part of the codex anymore and all.
35132
Post by: Smitty0305
Revelation 20:7 "and the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and phalse prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
God is good, everything good is of god. God is the alpha and omega. Good and evil only clash once...and good wins.
38678
Post by: Blackhoof
So, your argument is, bible says good wins, therefore in 40k universe where the christian god clearly doesnt exist (especially since the Emperor wa Jesus) and the bible is unheard of, good always wins?
Whuh?
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Post by: PresidentOfAsia
The souls of the dead only have the fate of being eaten by the chaos gods
thats right the souls of many people no matter how awesome whether its Commissar Yarrick, Calgar, Pedro, Volkin; when they die they will all get eaten by the chaos gods and thus empowering them
Chaos Wins and wins their souls
Case closed
38678
Post by: Blackhoof
since when? a soul is a presence in the warp, the reflection of your emotions, psychic attunement, mental state, etc. when you die, it dies.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:Aun'shi is the model you picked? Really?
You can pick any Tau you want. Even the one on the image you posted, as that guy in the middle clearly seems to be lacking toes as well.
Kanluwen wrote:that reason being that they didn't like his fluff
Source?
Apart from that, he can still be purchased on the GW website right now, so GW obviously is content with his looks.
Not that I actually need to point at Tau feet to prove a point. One word is enough to discredit BL as a source of fluff, that word being "Goto".
38678
Post by: Blackhoof
well, i look at BL like wikipedia- it is 95% accurate but the problem is that you dont know WHICH 95%....
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Post by: RatBot
I'm honestly stunned that Presidentofasia is so shocked by this revelation. Dude, have you ever even read any of the fluff at all in any Chaos codex to ever exist?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lynata wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Aun'shi is the model you picked? Really?
You can pick any Tau you want. Even the one on the image you posted, as that guy in the middle clearly seems to be lacking toes as well.
Kanluwen wrote:that reason being that they didn't like his fluff
Source?
Apart from that, he can still be purchased on the GW website right now, so GW obviously is content with his looks.
Not that I actually need to point at Tau feet to prove a point. One word is enough to discredit BL as a source of fluff, that word being "Goto".
And one word is enough to discredit GW itself as a source of fluff, that word being "Kelly".
Seriously. Orks castrating Daemons, what is this crap?
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Post by: King Pariah
Smitty0305 wrote:Revelation 20:7 "and the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
God is good, everything good is of god. God is the alpharius and omegon. Good and evil only clash once...and good wins?
fixed that for you. lolololol
45599
Post by: RatBot
Yeah... Smitty, you know that real life theology has no bearing in 40K. I'm not trying to turn this into a theological debate, but we're talking about the 40K universe. It is a fictional universe in which God does not exist (I am not saying whether or not he exists in the real universe, this is not a serious real-life debate thread). In the 40K universe, well, it looks like evil will eventually win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Missed Smitty's post or I would've mentioned it in my previous one.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:And one word is enough to discredit GW itself as a source of fluff, that word being "Kelly".
Seriously. Orks castrating Daemons, what is this crap?
Whilst GW may have produced some weird stuff over the years (see latest GK Codex), the difference is that it's still GW. They set the mark, so their "crap" is the stuff to which the licensed material should adhere to. Funny enough this isn't always the case, see the RPG's Daemon Hunter book or various BL novels deviating from stuff. Heck, even one of the authors of the HH books admitted to taking such liberties on his blog. So, either you have GW canon, or no canon at all. Choose your poison. The truth cannot be everything, for there's way too much conflicting stuff that has been published over the years. And according to Gav Thorpe, GW has realized this.
(I know you've probably read those blogs before, just linking them here in case anyone else is interested in these statements)
And what's wrong with Orks castrating daemons? Whilst it may sound a bit silly per se, this is 40k, where daemons can be captured, sometimes do have genitalia, and Orks like to mutilate. Also, Kelly wrote some cool stuff (though admittedly I've only read two of his Codices and some WD articles by him as of yet) - why the hate? :(
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lynata wrote:Kanluwen wrote:And one word is enough to discredit GW itself as a source of fluff, that word being "Kelly".
Seriously. Orks castrating Daemons, what is this crap?
Whilst GW may have produced some weird stuff over the years (see latest GK Codex), the difference is that it's still GW. They set the mark, so their "crap" is the stuff to which the licensed material should adhere to. Funny enough this isn't always the case, see the RPG's Daemon Hunter book or various BL novels deviating from stuff. Heck, even one of the authors of the HH books admitted to taking such liberties on his blog. So, either you have GW canon, or no canon at all. Choose your poison. The truth cannot be everything, for there's way too much conflicting stuff that has been published over the years. And according to Gav Thorpe, GW has realized this.
(I know you've probably read those blogs before, just linking them here in case anyone else is interested in these statements)
You really need to actually start reading the things you link. Because it's pretty clear they're not supporting your continual refutation of Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games.
And what's wrong with Orks castrating daemons? Whilst it may sound a bit silly per se, this is 40k, where daemons can be captured, sometimes do have genitalia, and Orks like to mutilate. Also, Kelly wrote some cool stuff (though admittedly I've only read two of his Codices and some WD articles by him as of yet) - why the hate? :(
Since this seems to go over your head, as usual, it's not hate. It's saying that every writer can be an idiot sometimes. When Kelly wrote Tuska's story, of an Ork Warlord trapped on a Daemon World within the Eye of Terror and ended it with a Daemon getting castrated--it's considered "acceptable" by the masses because it's an Ork doing it and it's within the 'spirit' of the army.
When Ward wrote something similar in the story of Draigo, a Grey Knight trapped forever within the Warp in a case of the gaoler being locked in with the prisoners, it's decried as "over the top" and "breaking canon". The same thing goes with the little paragraph and a half story of the "Bloodtide", which is decried the same.
Both instances feature over the top fluff, just one gets whined about because people dislike the author.
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Post by: SSsilverskullSS
Hazard30 wrote:
The bad guys never win.
What youve got to understand is that they are all bad guys in there own right.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:You really need to actually start reading the things you link. Because it's pretty clear they're not supporting your continual refutation of Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games.
And mind telling me how that is so instead of just going "NO U"? Apparently, you're such a better reader than I am. Feel free to enlighten me with your wisdom.
Kanluwen wrote:Since this seems to go over your head, as usual, [...]
You really should stop coming off as oh-so-superior and all-knowing, and most of all insulting. Such potshots are both as unnecessary as they are unconstructive.
Kanluwen wrote:Both instances feature over the top fluff, just one gets whined about because people dislike the author.
Well, I guess your personal opinion just deviates from "the masses". But of course it's the masses that must be wrong, yes?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lynata wrote:Kanluwen wrote:You really need to actually start reading the things you link. Because it's pretty clear they're not supporting your continual refutation of Black Library and Fantasy Flight Games.
And mind telling me how that is so instead of just going "NO U"? Apparently, you're such a better reader than I am. Feel free to enlighten me with your wisdom.
Reread Thorpe's blog. Notice what he says about how the studio "worked with Black Library".
Profit!
Kanluwen wrote:Since this seems to go over your head, as usual, [...]
You really should stop coming off as oh-so-superior and all-knowing, and most of all insulting. Such potshots are both as unnecessary as they are unconstructive.
Then perhaps rather than taking every chance you can to try disagreeing or one-upping my posts, try actually comprehending. If you think I'm taking potshots, you're quite mistaken. If I were to take potshots, they'd be much lower blows.
Kanluwen wrote:Both instances feature over the top fluff, just one gets whined about because people dislike the author.
Well, I guess your personal opinion just deviates from "the masses". But of course it's the masses that must be wrong, yes?
It's like this isn't registering with you.
My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:Reread Thorpe's blog. Notice what he says about how the studio "worked with Black Library".
Profit!
I suggest you go read again and - hopefully - notice what he says about:
"there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books"
Which is exactly mirroring what other people - such as GW's own Head of Publishing (-> "alternative version of the respective worlds"  - have said.
In your words, "it's like this isn't registering with you".
Kanluwen wrote:If I were to take potshots, they'd be much lower blows.
I guess our understanding of etiquette is just very different, then. I'll try to adapt to your insulting attitude.
Kanluwen wrote:My entire point was that people have bias.
Big news. That doesn't mean that it's in any way surprising that people get riled up over things they perceive as wrong - and the number of people voicing their protest is usually (not always) a good indicator of the "level of fault", as this reflects the obviousness of a piece of writing deviating from the setting as it had been described before.
Without doubt the internet does a lot to, shall we say, "multiply" the Wardbash (perhaps even to undeserved levels in some cases), but that changes nothing about his original ideas themselves.
Kanluwen wrote:Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes [...]
Not really. As I pointed out (actually, you yourself have as well) it can be perfectly explained by saying "Orks" (and most daemons in 40k are not as powerful as in most other settings anyways). When you have a problem with that, you have a problem with 40k as a whole. Which is a different topic.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Gav Thorpe wrote:For the most part these discussions revolved around extrapolations by the authors, extending areas of the backgrounds into subjects that were not relevant to the material needed for tabletop wargames – ‘Does this sound right?’ or ‘Is this how it would work?’. It was rare that we would be passed anything that was so hideously off-the-mark that the story or novel was completely verboten (“we’ve had this story about squats…”). Far from being the black jackboot of authoritarianism, I like to think that we provided possible solutions to problems that cropped up. Sometimes an author or an editor might have a situation they need resolved and would ask for background-friendly suggestions. For instance, an author might want orks invading a moon, but was not sure how the greenies would operate on an airless world. Rather than say that would never happen, we would have a think about it and provided some viable answers (probably something with mobile forcefields in this case…).
I'm sorry, you were saying something about how there was "no pressure to make it fit"?
"Background friendly suggestions" seems to say otherwise.
And you continually tout that line about "nothing and everything is canon". That was the head of publishing talking to a brand new author, when asked about if he should or should not feel the need to "build upon" established works. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gav Thorpe wrote:Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. There are certainly established facts – the current Emperor is Karl-Franz, the Blood Angels have red armour, Commissar Yarrick defended Hades Hive during the Second Armageddon War. However, to suggest that anything else is non-canon is a disservice to the players and authors who participate in this world. To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.
Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.
In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.
The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.
I'm just going to leave that there.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Kanluwen wrote:I'm sorry, you were saying something about how there was "no pressure to make it fit"? "Background friendly suggestions" seems to say otherwise.
Um, no? That GW occasionally gives suggestions to BL authors has no relevance whatsoever regarding the canonicity of the end result. Because you, as the reader, do not know which parts come from GW and which were made up by the author.
If there was pressure to make it fit, we wouldn't have ended up with Multilaser-Marines, backflipping Terminators or - yes - entire Orders of Sisters getting corrupted. Daemonifuge also claims that the Ecclesiarchy gets its own battleships, by the way. Is this canon, too?
Kanluwen wrote:And you continually tout that line about "nothing and everything is canon". That was the head of publishing talking to a brand new author, when asked about if he should or should not feel the need to "build upon" established works.
You're mixing things up.
The Head of Publishing didn't say "nothing and everything is canon" (that was a different BL author, Marc Gascogne iirc.
In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
Analysis:
+ BL authors tend to interpret GW canon differently, so contradictions arise
+ GW canon should ideally be adhered to, but mistakes happen (also see Gav Thorpe's blog regarding authors with "wobbly moments")
+ BL books cannot establish canon by themselves, for there is no obligation for BL authors to adhere to facts in other BL books (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog where he freely admits to make use of this liberty)
+ similarly, when BL books cannot establish canon, they cannot override GW canon (else it would require other BL authors to stick to this, which isn't the case, see above)
It's a formula of consecutive facts. In the words you so often like to use, "this isn't difficult to understand".
Kanluwen wrote:I'm just going to leave that there.
Do this. And read the last part again, as apparently you still haven't done that.
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
Kanluwen wrote:
My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.
What, army's were broken before Ward?
I thought until him that army's were well balanced ( except Tau Fish of Fury ).
44688
Post by: TrollPie
Brother Coa wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
My entire point was that people have bias. People dislike Ward because of his codices and this idea that he, and he alone, is responsible for such broken armies. That's not true and it's stupid to believe such a thing. His fluff gets nitpicked to death because everyone wants a reason to cry about him "ruining 40k!", when in fact the vast majority of his fluff is keeping true to the setting. Phil Kelly's "Tuska" example that I point out is a perfect example of the same kind of fluff that Ward writes, yet is glossed over whenever people talk about ridiculous things because nobody cries about the Ork Codex's fluff. Orks are expected to be ridiculous and over the top--it's who Orks are. The only complaints you ever hear about Kelly is for Canis Wolfborn.
What, army's were broken before Ward?
I thought until him that army's were well balanced ( except Tau Fish of Fury ).
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Big red letters=win.
43960
Post by: Fairfeldia
i don't see the point of the big red letters, your making a point, we understand that, if we can't read it correctly we will zoom in, or are you shouting?
because shouting means your getting grouchy and that its time to turn the internet off
28444
Post by: DarknessEternal
Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.
Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.
They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.
40927
Post by: im2randomghgh
Any chaos-viewpoint book. The reason most of the books have the imperials win is that it is from the imperials viewpoint. Oh, dead men walking necrons won, forgot that. Anyways, It is always the person who's viewpoint the book is written in who wins.
Storm of Iron was so good because you really didn't know-it was written from chaos AND imperial perspectives.
The chaos force was stronger, but the imperial kept getting lucky (the missile strike, IF reinforcements [IF own], death of the Dies Irae etc.), and generally chaos was just pretty damn unlucky (except for killing all the imperial titans and the mechanicus crushing most of the Guard in the tunnels)
I think SoI needed a sequel, because there was a conspiracy at the end that was hinted at (the mechanicus thing) that left me hanging. Automatically Appended Next Post: DarknessEternal wrote:Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.
Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.
They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.
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Post by: Hazard30
Ok I must say the tuska argument is a horrible one. Tuska got his ork hide handed to him. The daemon was just having his fun. The only reason he got the lucky shot is because of the wierdboys phycic shot. Where-as Diago is the Rambo of the Warp...he just tools daemons on there own turf(and makes it seem easy). Tuska in no way sounds over-the-top in terms of fluff...Diago does.
Which goes full circle saying the daemons can't even beat good on there own turf. Even when they do win they tend to lose in the long run. I keep hearing "the imperium is losing planets and slowly losing" but I don't actually see it happening, or read it in many books.
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
DarknessEternal wrote:Evil won the single-most important conflict in the setting: the Horus Heresy.
Sure, the Traitor legions lost, but Chaos won. They got absolutely everything they wanted out of that whole ball of conflict.
They were revealed on a massive scale to humanity, while locking their greatest enemy into a state between life and death. Either fully alive or fully dead, the Emperor was a threat to them. Things couldn't have gone better from their perspective.
couldn't agree more 
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Post by: DarknessEternal
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.
Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well. Right now, he's fully neither, as he's still a little from column A and a little from column B.
Also, you're still confusing Chaos with the Traitor legions. They aren't remotely equivalent.
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Post by: Brother Coa
DarknessEternal wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.
Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well. Right now, he's fully neither, as he's still a little from column A and a little from column B.
Trying to explain divine things to Tau....
Anyway, evil is wining now because all the "good guys" are weak and disorganize to oppose them. Eldar are starting to die out, Imperium is fighting for Mankind survival, Tau are to small...
Only IF Gw ever expand story-line will we know for sure who will win, since this is now tie situation.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
DarknessEternal wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.
Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well.
Theory. Pure and simple. Staunch loyalist that I am, I don't buy the Star Child thingy.
The Chaos Gods certainly weren't pulling any punches when they tried to kill him.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Theory. Pure and simple. Staunch loyalist that I am, I don't buy the Star Child thingy.
The Chaos Gods certainly weren't pulling any punches when they tried to kill him.
So you think that when the Emperor die - he dies?
I think he had some sort of backup plan, even in his state now his entity is very powerful ( see SoB acts of faith ).
And giving the untold billions praying to him every day he is quite powerful with all that strength.
That is theory all right, but Landing on the Moon was once theory to...
I am just saying, that soul that powerful cannot simply vanish into the Warp. Something will happened, what - we don't know until he dies...
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Brother Coa wrote:So you think that when the Emperor die - he dies?
I think he had some sort of backup plan...
His backup plan was to be interred into the Golden Throne. Which stopped him from dying.
BTW, I think this was a good backup plan. It was definitely better than the alternative (dying and leaving his newfound Human Empire to collapse around his corpse).
...even in his state now his entity is very powerful ( see SoB acts of faith ).
Of course he's powerful, and it can be argued that 10 millenia of worship has only increased that, but no one can definitively (or even confidently) say that he will be reborn as some sort of Star Child. The Star Child theory is believed in by a small Inquisitorial cult, not part of common doctrine, so far as I am aware.
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Post by: hellspawn22
The Emperor dies, he dies. He was just a man, if incredibly powerful. I honestly don't much buy into the star child theory, but that raises another question: what's the Imperium's best hope once he goes out?
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Post by: Lynata
hellspawn22 wrote:what's the Imperium's best hope once he goes out?
Pretending it never happened? 
Of course, the Astronomican would pose a problem. That said, this being 40k, I could imagine a scenario where a faction of the Inquisition working together with the AdMech devises a plan to replicate this effect. Maybe it just costs a couple thousand psykers more, replacing Emps as the focus (though quickly "burning out" and having to be replaced).
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Post by: Nicholas
If all the shamans who killed themselves to create him could bring themselves back to life why couldn't he?
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Post by: 4M2A
Coa- We have no reason to believe that if this fails he could just die. The theories saying he will return are based on human hope and faith rather than any evidence. For all we know he could just enter the warp and be eaten by chaos.
The emperor is already on plan B. He never wanted to go onto the throne, he chose it because it was the better alternative. If being in continual pain while your body falls apart is the good option things don't look good for the Big E when the throne fails. If he was more useful free from the throne why did he ask to be locked into it. He could ask to be free any time he wants- he can still communicate with people. He has already made his desperate last move- whatever happens to him next probably isn't going to be good.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Well, my sources (read: Lexicanum) say that humanity is evolving into a race of psykers, so if we just hold out for a little bit longer, we'll be fine! But I agree that our best hope would indeed be in pretending it didn't happen.
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Post by: Nicholas
"These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later." (Lexicanum on Big E's page)
This is why I can believe the starchild theory. All I think he is doing now is using the throne to pool enough energy in the warp in order to come back. I think if he dies too soon then he will simply die that is why he hasn't told anyone to just kill him yet.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Hmm... and they sacrifice thousands of psykers a day to him... is there a strict record of where all those souls are going? I bet he's embezzling psychic energy, using the psykers to add to his own energy, so he can come back and ROFLSTOMP Chaos.
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Post by: Lynata
hellspawn22 wrote:Hmm... and they sacrifice thousands of psykers a day to him... is there a strict record of where all those souls are going? I bet he's embezzling psychic energy, using the psykers to add to his own energy, so he can come back and ROFLSTOMP Chaos.
I'm fairly certain that it's been said those psykers are used to keep the Astronomican burning, but I'm sure someone with a better grip on this aspect of the fluff can elaborate further.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Ostensibly, they are. But who's watching to make sure of it?
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Post by: 4M2A
Their souls are basically being used as a fuel. They are burned out and destroyed by the astronomicon.
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Post by: hellspawn22
There are thousands of them every day. Who would notice if one or two souls got diverted to the warp into a forming super-emperor?
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Post by: Lynata
Well, it's being explained out-of-character, so personally, *I* don't have a reason to believe it's otherwise yet.
GW could still pull this off, but until they actually hint at this ...
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Post by: hellspawn22
But you gotta admit, awesome as a god-emperor is, a super god-emperor would be swagtastic.
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Post by: Lynata
Absolutely. Especially when he ends up being the new Chaos Corpse-God of Death as one of the many theories goes.
Apparently ( in-character information from GW's Inquisitor RPG) he may still be reborn, wouldn't even need any psykers for that. But I suppose this just means he'd end up in a mortal form again?
Not that this wouldn't be somewhat epic by itself. Imagine the nerdgasms of all those zealots across the Imperium when they hear he's truly back ... and then his facepalm when he sees what has become of his Imperium.
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Post by: 4M2A
That's the funniest part of the whole reborn theory. The first thing he would do is immediatly declare war on the imperium that claims to be fighting in his name. He would claim to be the emperor (heresy number 1), order them to give in all religion (heresy 2- he is obviously a chaos cultist in disguise trying to undermine the IoM) and then try to take control when they tell him he is not in charge (heresy number 3). The high lords are corrupt and would are too afraid of change to let the emperor take over. He would tear the imperium apart- or die when the inquisition issue an exterminatus on his planet.
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Post by: Kurgash
Brother Coa wrote:Frazzled wrote:
Also Real Life (TM)
QFT, every time we take down one evil another one emerge.
German Empire then Nazi Germany then USSR then Terrorism then America?
American Empire. Calling it now. We will have one someday.
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Post by: Varrick
Kurgash wrote:Brother Coa wrote:Frazzled wrote:
Also Real Life (TM)
QFT, every time we take down one evil another one emerge.
German Empire then Nazi Germany then USSR then Terrorism then America?
American Empire. Calling it now. We will have one someday.
No calling needed its already in the works.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Yay America!
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Post by: Psienesis
American Empire. Calling it now. We will have one someday.
Uh, we have one now. We just don't call them colonies or w/e, we call them "protectorates".
And this not to mention the rather subversive manner in which we inject our culture, and economy, into both allied and less-so nations...
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Post by: hellspawn22
Yeah, but it isn't cool until you're blatant about it.
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Post by: Brother Coa
4M2A wrote:That's the funniest part of the whole reborn theory. The first thing he would do is immediatly declare war on the imperium that claims to be fighting in his name. He would claim to be the emperor (heresy number 1), order them to give in all religion (heresy 2- he is obviously a chaos cultist in disguise trying to undermine the IoM) and then try to take control when they tell him he is not in charge (heresy number 3). The high lords are corrupt and would are too afraid of change to let the emperor take over. He would tear the imperium apart- or die when the inquisition issue an exterminatus on his planet.
Uhhh........you are wrong on so many levels.
He will probably reborn inside throne room, and when he get to the High Lords of Terra with 10.300 Custodes behind him you will think they will judge him?
If they resist even little he will fry them and then take control over the Imperium. The Grey Knights will stand with him as will Inquisition and Mechanicus. Doesen't seems to me like "parting up the Imperium".
And everyone know how he looks, and giving his size and powers none will judge him.
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Post by: iproxtaco
Brother Coa wrote:4M2A wrote:That's the funniest part of the whole reborn theory. The first thing he would do is immediatly declare war on the imperium that claims to be fighting in his name. He would claim to be the emperor (heresy number 1), order them to give in all religion (heresy 2- he is obviously a chaos cultist in disguise trying to undermine the IoM) and then try to take control when they tell him he is not in charge (heresy number 3). The high lords are corrupt and would are too afraid of change to let the emperor take over. He would tear the imperium apart- or die when the inquisition issue an exterminatus on his planet.
Uhhh........you are wrong on so many levels. He will probably reborn inside throne room, and when he get to the High Lords of Terra with 10.300 Custodes behind him you will think they will judge him? If they resist even little he will fry them and then take control over the Imperium. The Grey Knights will stand with him as will Inquisition and Mechanicus. Doesen't seems to me like "parting up the Imperium". And everyone know how he looks, and giving his size and powers none will judge him.
He's not wrong. It's simply his theory, one that isn't entirely unlikely. What you've said is your own theory, one that's not exactly explained as gracefully. One thing I disagree with 4M2A on is the Emperor declaring war so quickly. I doubt he would just immediately attempt war on such a scale, he would consolidate the parts he wanted to keep, or try and sway those who worship him from their beliefs, or he may just run with the whole God thing and embrace his new position.
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Post by: Brother Coa
iproxtaco wrote: one that's not exactly explained as gracefully.
Do you have a brain at all? Must I all explain??? God Emperor stop Trolling me  I will explain in a way you can understand: in steps. Step 1: Emperor dies. Step 2: Suppose that Star Child theory is correct - he resurrect. Step 3: He resurrect in Throne Room from his dead body and Custodes greet him. Step 4: He exit the throne room and get's greet by 10.000 Custodes and 2 Titans. Step 5: He take his 10.300 Custodes and exit the outer throne room Step 6: He walk to the High Lords of Terra metting room ( ort where they gater and do stuff ). Step 7: He present himself and ask for a report ( with 10.300 Custodes behind him ). Step 8: When HLoT ( High Lords of Terra ) see that Custodes are actually following this men and that he look EXACTLY like guy on pictures and icons and bla bla bla... They conclude that he is the Emperor and that he returned from the dead. Step 9: Several HLoT stod up against him and declaring him a heretc - he kills them on spot. Step 10: Rest of HLoT swear their allegiance to him, as well as representative from Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus ( fabricator general to be precise ). Step 11: Emperor gear's up and goes with his 10.300 Custodes on a crusade to save the Imperium. In short - he get their allegiance at the very beginning. So there is no rebellion, no fight and no war. Same if Jesus, Muhammad and Buda came down on Earth. They would just show us their powers and we would obey like good believers we are. Did you understand or did I need to draw it?
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Post by: iproxtaco
Brother Coa wrote:iproxtaco wrote: one that's not exactly explained as gracefully.
Do you have a brain at all? Must I all explain??? God Emperor stop Trolling me I will explain in a way you can understand: in steps. Step 1: Emperor dies. Step 2: Suppose that Star Child theory is correct - he resurrect. Step 3: He resurrect in Throne Room from his dead body and Custodes greet him. Step 4: He exit the throne room and get's greet by 10.000 Custodes and 2 Titans. Step 5: He take his 10.300 Custodes and exit the outer throne room Step 6: He walk to the High Lords of Terra metting room ( ort where they gater and do stuff ). Step 7: He present himself and ask for a report ( with 10.300 Custodes behind him ). Step 8: When HLoT ( High Lords of Terra ) see that Custodes are actually following this men and that he look EXACTLY like guy on pictures and icons and bla bla bla... They conclude that he is the Emperor and that he returned from the dead. Step 9: Several HLoT stod up against him and declaring him a heretc - he kills them on spot. Step 10: Rest of HLoT swear their allegiance to him, as well as representative from Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus ( fabricator general to be precise ). Step 11: Emperor gear's up and goes with his 10.300 Custodes on a crusade to save the Imperium. In short - he get their allegiance at the very beginning. So there is no rebellion, no fight and no war. Same if Jesus, Muhammad and Buda came down on Earth. They would just show us their powers and we would obey like good believers we are. Did you understand or did I need to draw it?
It was never a matter of whether or not I understood. I did, if it matters. I simply stated that your explanation was a little rough in that post. Again though, it's your theory, not right, not wrong, we'll see what happens if 40k ever advances to that stage.
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Post by: Brother Coa
You said: not explained while it was.
Just my opinion, but still - very possible giving the main writers loyalties.
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Post by: iproxtaco
I never said it wasn't explained at all, you're making that up. I stated that it wasn't explained 'as gracefully', meaning that it was a little rough and lacked specifics, but I understood you perfectly, there's no need for arrogant condescension just because someone disagrees.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Coa, the guy had a theory. You don't need to flame him. Your theory doesn't have any more credibility than his. Both of your theories are based on canon and both of them are just educated guesses.
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Post by: Brother Coa
I didn't said ..... never mind.....some things are better left were they are...
And German Situation in 1944 is similar to some ways - but not all as he claimed.
Imperium can still kick, and kick hard. Germany in 1944-45 was so kicked that they regrut old men and young boys to fight. And they had no air or armor support. Imeprium still have all of this. And Imperium enemies are fighting among themselves for real, Allies fight only with politics, and draw in the end. ( they split Europe in 2 and start arming )
For everything else he is right ( except for Tyranids bombing Mars or Orks bombing Terra ). Happy now?
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Post by: hellspawn22
Immensely.
BTOP, evil does win, it's just that they lose everything they win. The Imperium is slow but incredibly powerful, so once they finally do get somewhere, they win. But they rarely conquer anything new, it's all just old stuff that they lost.
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
I reckon its all about belief. If enough people think its the Emporer (and he attually is with all the crazy powerness) then the high lords will have no choice to belive. just look at the Guants ghosts books the Sabbat comes back none of the high command are willing to belive untill she turns the tide of battle.
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Post by: Melissia
That's because she hadn't really shown up in the flesh to them until then....
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:That's because she hadn't really shown up in the flesh to them until then....
Finished "The Saint" I guess?
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
Melissia wrote:That's because she hadn't really shown up in the flesh to them until then....
Still if the big E came back he would be the greatest human to ever do anything, even if the high lords don't belive it at first they will when the see his abilities
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Shortly after the Emperor's original interment (like decades, not minutes), the whole "Emperor can resurrect himself if we just kill him" was discovered and brought to the High Lords of Terra. They decided to just leave things the way they were, assuming it would just cause another civil war, and they hadn't even recovered from the first one yet.
They're reasoning at the time would only be stronger in today's Imperium.
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Post by: Nicholas
DarknessEternal wrote:Shortly after the Emperor's original interment (like decades, not minutes), the whole "Emperor can resurrect himself if we just kill him" was discovered and brought to the High Lords of Terra. They decided to just leave things the way they were, assuming it would just cause another civil war, and they hadn't even recovered from the first one yet.
They're reasoning at the time would only be stronger in today's Imperium.
Civil war might be good for them though. They will lose territory, but they will have their almighty Emperor to take it back after and will return to his ideals, which wold be much better.
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Post by: KingDeath
Nicholas wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:Shortly after the Emperor's original interment (like decades, not minutes), the whole "Emperor can resurrect himself if we just kill him" was discovered and brought to the High Lords of Terra. They decided to just leave things the way they were, assuming it would just cause another civil war, and they hadn't even recovered from the first one yet.
They're reasoning at the time would only be stronger in today's Imperium.
Civil war might be good for them though. They will lose territory, but they will have their almighty Emperor to take it back after and will return to his ideals, which wold be much better.
The almighty emprah is far from being almighty. Besides that, i honestly doubt that the imperium of man can endure the devastation of a second great civil war, not with the difficult situation at the end of the 40. millenium.
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Post by: 4M2A
Coa - Why would the emperor be reborn into his old body. There is no reason he would want to be reborn into a decaying corpse, the whole reason the imperium is in such a bad state is that his body isn't capable of containing his soul. When the shamans were reborn they went to a new body, it makes sense to think he would do it the same way. Since he is being born again there is nor reason to think he would look the same. It's been 10,000 years since the HH no one has any idea (aside from some custodes and dreads) what the emperor was like.
He wouldn't choose to attack the IoM but the imperium has a lot of procedures in place for stopping people rising up. The whole setting is against people ever changing position. The imperium doesn't want people to progress and rise through the imperium, they want people to stay where they are. Eventually he is going to be discovered even if it's just as some imperial leader. His views are too far from the Imperium's ideas for it to be a smooth take over.
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Post by: Brother Coa
So you are saying that Jesus will not return as we picture him but in a new body?
But the other claims are true also, if Jesus ever return the Church would tell him to f*** off.
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Post by: Nicholas
KingDeath wrote:Nicholas wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:Shortly after the Emperor's original interment (like decades, not minutes), the whole "Emperor can resurrect himself if we just kill him" was discovered and brought to the High Lords of Terra. They decided to just leave things the way they were, assuming it would just cause another civil war, and they hadn't even recovered from the first one yet.
They're reasoning at the time would only be stronger in today's Imperium.
Civil war might be good for them though. They will lose territory, but they will have their almighty Emperor to take it back after and will return to his ideals, which wold be much better.
The almighty emprah is far from being almighty. Besides that, i honestly doubt that the imperium of man can endure the devastation of a second great civil war, not with the difficult situation at the end of the 40. millenium.
Almighty was a sort of joke, but I think they could survive they would lose a lot of course. With the Emperor at the helm what is to stop another crusade to take it back though. Who is really in a position to wipe mankind completely off the map now? The Imperium might not exist as a whole for a while, but humanity would rebuild their Empire. The only problem I could see would be Abbadon, but a civil war will not make the Imperiums defenses disappear Cadia will still be almost as defended as ever. Everyone else has their own problems to deal wit or don't care.
Orks might take a few worlds, but won't care enough to organize something big enough to exterminate humanity.
Nids only threat could be Leviathen and their tied up by Orks.
Tau will gain some worlds nothing huge though as they still have to deal with their own enemies like Orks or parts of Leviathen. Let's be honest they need more worlds anyway.
Dark Eldar or Eldar don't care enough to do anything. Eldar might even try to help as humanity is still a big buffer for them.
Necrons 
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Post by: Melissia
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia wrote:That's because she hadn't really shown up in the flesh to them until then....
Finished "The Saint" I guess?
The only Gaunt book I haven't read at the moment is Salvation's Reach.
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Post by: 4M2A
Er what, I don't believe in jesus so I'm not quite sure what the point of the question is. However how he looks is irrelevant since almost noone knows what the emperor (or jesus- for example all depictions put his white when clearly was not) looked like. There are thousands of versions of the imperial creed and it's impossible to fit in with all of them. There are many ways to change appearance and you could easily make yourself look emperor-ish. The problem is that whatever the emperor does to try and prove his identity the IoM will have an argument that discredits it. They will do everything possible to stop him. Even without their help enough people will refuse to believe it's him for their to be a serious civil war.
His opposition to religion makes it even harder. How would muslims react if a man turns up claims to be a prophet, then tells them to drop all the religious stuff because they got it all wrong. I don't see that going down wel and that's without a central organisation fighting against it.
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Post by: Nicholas
Something tells me a rebellion by somebody like the Emperor will be much harder to squash then a normal leader. It would be much better planned and would be backed by anyone who knows the Emperor isn't alive at the moment, namely custodes, marines, Gray Knights, and anyone else could be easily convinced by a show of power.
Also let's not bring religion into this.
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Post by: Lynata
I guess the problem will be that a reborn Emperor would have a hard time convincing people of who he really is. Sure, once a powerbase is established it might get a bit easier - see Sebastian Thor - but at first he'd just be seen like a heretical madman.
Some guy in beggar's clothes: "Hey, I'm the reborn Emperor."
Random Arbites Enforcer: *facepunch*
He wouldn't even get noticed by the higher-ups at first, let alone recognized.
Also ... I wonder how he would be reborn. Like a completely new child that doesn't even have a clue of its potential at first?
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Post by: hellspawn22
come on, guys. give us a spoiler alert.
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Post by: Che-Vito
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Lynata wrote:I guess the problem will be that a reborn Emperor would have a hard time convincing people of who he really is. Sure, once a powerbase is established it might get a bit easier - see Sebastian Thor - but at first he'd just be seen like a heretical madman.
Some guy in beggar's clothes: "Hey, I'm the reborn Emperor."
Random Arbites Enforcer: *facepunch*
He wouldn't even get noticed by the higher-ups at first, let alone recognized.
Also ... I wonder how he would be reborn. Like a completely new child that doesn't even have a clue of its potential at first?
It would presumably be like the manifestation of Living Saints, only radically more so.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Nicholas wrote:
Civil war might be good for them though. They will lose territory, but they will have their almighty Emperor to take it back after and will return to his ideals, which wold be much better.
Well, zero of the High Lords of Terra would likely maintain their strangleholds on power, since 100% of them are doing things the defiantly in ways the Emperor did not want. They'd lose a lot more than territory; their lives for example, possibly their souls.
There's really nothing in it for them personally to let the Emperor fully die.
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Post by: SpectraPhantom
If the emperor was reborn wouldn't he have to start over as a child? Also wouldn't he have to survive long enough to start to do anything?
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Post by: Varrick
Depends on how he is reborn, where, and if he gets noticed. The planet he gets reborn on would make a few gak tons of difference but minor in comparison to what would happen if he got noticed. If the wrong High Lord managed to catch wind of it he might do something he would regret. Such as send an adminisortum assassin after the newly reborn God Emperor.
Maybeh e gets reborn to an Imperial Guard family and spends his first 18 years fighting as a soldier, leading his own squad, and eventually organizing a rebellion against the Imperium in order to restore it to its glory; maybe he gets born to an Astartes Homeworld and quickly gets into position to rally legions loyal to the original Imperium as an idea; a faint dream in the mind of the dreadnoughts from the days of Horus; and he forces the high lords to recognize him for what he is and the imperium takes a massive upturn. Mans not an idiot so i assume he wouldn't sow his hand before he had the right opportunity.
Would make for some good books, maybe a damn good model, possibly a BA outcome(unless status quo must remain unchanged).
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
If the Emporer choses where he is reborn, he will most likely choose macragge or a BA recruitng world. he is the most powerful human psyker there would be no denying his power. personally i think he will be born in Cadia, thats where the fight is so he can prove himself and gain the loyalty of the eye's defenders
sorry about the lack of spoilers
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Post by: 4M2A
Another possible issue for the emperor is whether he would even know who he is. Just because his soul is the same doesn't mean his mind is also reborn. He could come back but have no idea he is the emperor reborn. As far as I know the emperor didn't know he was made up of thousands of shamans. If he is reborn without the same mind he is going to find it much more difficult as all his knowledge is lost.
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
4M2A wrote:Another possible issue for the emperor is whether he would even know who he is. Just because his soul is the same doesn't mean his mind is also reborn. He could come back but have no idea he is the emperor reborn. As far as I know the emperor didn't know he was made up of thousands of shamans. If he is reborn without the same mind he is going to find it much more difficult as all his knowledge is lost.
a fair point but if his soul is the same, then things will just click, i would suspect that his soul will carry some of the knowlage or at least visions of his greatness
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Post by: Nicholas
Lynata wrote:I guess the problem will be that a reborn Emperor would have a hard time convincing people of who he really is. Sure, once a powerbase is established it might get a bit easier - see Sebastian Thor - but at first he'd just be seen like a heretical madman.
Some guy in beggar's clothes: "Hey, I'm the reborn Emperor."
Random Arbites Enforcer: *facepunch*
He wouldn't even get noticed by the higher-ups at first, let alone recognized.
Also ... I wonder how he would be reborn. Like a completely new child that doesn't even have a clue of its potential at first?
Try attempted facepunch then Arbites explodes from Big E's psychic facepunch  . He wouldn't just come out and say "Hey, I'm the reborn Emperor" until he knew it was the right time, he is probably the smartest human ever. Whatever he does will be so well thought out he might as well be reborn in the throne room. Unlike any normal rebel like Thor he would have the means to prove he is the Emperor. Let's be honest if a normal man like Thor could take down the the Eccleisiarchy when it basically controlled the Imperium than Big E could do much more.
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Post by: Lynata
Nicholas wrote:Try attempted facepunch then Arbites explodes from Big E's psychic facepunch . He wouldn't just come out and say "Hey, I'm the reborn Emperor" until he knew it was the right time, he is probably the smartest human ever. Whatever he does will be so well thought out he might as well be reborn in the throne room. Unlike any normal rebel like Thor he would have the means to prove he is the Emperor. Let's be honest if a normal man like Thor could take down the the Eccleisiarchy when it basically controlled the Imperium than Big E could do much more.
Hmm, good point about the psychic powers. Though I'm still somewhat sceptical as to how much he would even remember/realize. Visions were mentioned, which I think sounds like a pretty solid concept (provided he gets reborn like a normal toddler and doesn't just pop up with a beam of light) - yet, depending on what the respective Ecclesiarchy officials think, such visions can also interpreted as the works of Chaos, and youngsters with the psyker-gene usually end up being shoved onto Black Ships or burnt on a pyre. And Sebastian Thor had the benefit of just about anyone realizing how mad Vandire truly was - the current Imperium is slightly more stable and less tyrannic (yes, I know, sounds weird!), whilst the Ecclesiarchy has more public support than it had back then.
Have to admit I like the alternatives, though. Both, actually. Regardless of whether the Emperor grows up like a "normal" child from some commoner's family and just ends up committing miracles amidst the poor until he gets recognized, or if he pops up like a Living Saint amidst his most loyal Space Marines to claim his rightful rule ... both paths would make for an epic story.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Well, say the Chaos gods feth with him the way they did with the primarchs. Say he tries to come back on Cadia, but then they send him to some backwater feral world. Sure the whole population would worship him as a god, but how often do Imperial officials visit? And then, Emperor forbid, there's a warp storm and everything on the planet goes Chaotic.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
4M2A wrote:Another possible issue for the emperor is whether he would even know who he is. Just because his soul is the same doesn't mean his mind is also reborn. He could come back but have no idea he is the emperor reborn. As far as I know the emperor didn't know he was made up of thousands of shamans. If he is reborn without the same mind he is going to find it much more difficult as all his knowledge is lost.
Actually, I doubt that would be an issue at all.
Magnus the Red, an immensely naturally powerful psyker, to be sure, was conscious the moment his "soul" came into existence, he can perfectly recall the bonding and formation of his body on a molecular level, apparently.
The Emperor is uniquely the most powerful psyker in the setting, so, he could possibly do the same were he to be reincarnated, in that his soul would retain the memories of his mind, since they seem to be connected.
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Post by: Varrick
Even if he shows signs of being the reincarnation of the Emperor(such as that champion of Sigmar fellow from FB) no guarantee leadership would be obliged to abdicate him to the throne. Odds are GW would kill him again to maintain the status quo.
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Post by: hellspawn22
I imagine he would be able to either overcome or avoid local authorities, but his birth would probably at least alert (and possibly cause head-'splosions) of every psyker in the sector. The Inquisition would be all over it, to be sure. So it becomes a question of how puritanical the local Inquisitors would be.
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Post by: Lynata
In the Far Future of the 42nd Millennium, ... the Emperor ends up on a Black Ship.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
I dunno, the Emperor is powerful enough that I doubt anything short of an absurd number of Titans in one place, if that, could not arrest him.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Coincidentally, an absurd number of titans in one place would reinvigorate GW popularity, so maybe they should go for it?
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Post by: 4M2A
While the emperor is an extremely powerful psyker the IoM has enough pariahss to shut him down. They had to move them off terra to stop them blocking the astronomicon.
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Post by: hellspawn22
And that brings up another issue. If the Emperor went down, everything would go to hell in a hand-basket before the custodes even noticed. At one point, the Astronomicon just flickered and thousands of ships were lost. So imagine what would happen if it went down for only 15 minutes? The whole Imperium would likely come grinding to a halt. As long as the Emperor isn't on the golden throne, there is no space travel. He would have to haul ass back to Terra and finish that webway gate really fast. And by that time, hundreds of worlds would have been lost.
Not that I doubt the Emperor could fix that in a jiffy.
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Post by: RogalDorn69
Chaos will always win in the end for they are truly inmortal :(
well thats what they all say just befor they get killed
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Post by: hellspawn22
Well, as long as the Imperium is around, so will Chaos. In fact, Chaos will likely outlive the Imperium. But that doesn't mean the Imperium has to fail! I for one, will stand by the IoM until the end.
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Post by: Nicholas
hellspawn22 wrote:And that brings up another issue. If the Emperor went down, everything would go to hell in a hand-basket before the custodes even noticed. At one point, the Astronomicon just flickered and thousands of ships were lost. So imagine what would happen if it went down for only 15 minutes? The whole Imperium would likely come grinding to a halt. As long as the Emperor isn't on the golden throne, there is no space travel. He would have to haul ass back to Terra and finish that webway gate really fast. And by that time, hundreds of worlds would have been lost.
Not that I doubt the Emperor could fix that in a jiffy.
When the Emperor dies the warp will flow through the webway and they will have to stop it or the entire Imperium will be engulfed by another eye of terror. They either need to evolve until the entire race is psykers or expand beyond it's reach.
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Post by: 4M2A
Having the entire species as psykers won't stop chaos it will help it. When the emperor dies all but the most powerful psykers will be possesed and become gateways for daemons.
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Post by: hellspawn22
You're really depressing, you know that?
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Post by: Varrick
Nicholas wrote:hellspawn22 wrote:And that brings up another issue. If the Emperor went down, everything would go to hell in a hand-basket before the custodes even noticed. At one point, the Astronomicon just flickered and thousands of ships were lost. So imagine what would happen if it went down for only 15 minutes? The whole Imperium would likely come grinding to a halt. As long as the Emperor isn't on the golden throne, there is no space travel. He would have to haul ass back to Terra and finish that webway gate really fast. And by that time, hundreds of worlds would have been lost.
Not that I doubt the Emperor could fix that in a jiffy.
When the Emperor dies the warp will flow through the webway and they will have to stop it or the entire Imperium will be engulfed by another eye of terror. They either need to evolve until the entire race is psykers or expand beyond it's reach.
I never got that one. Who took a sledge hammer to the support beams and set that u[p to happen?
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Post by: im2randomghgh
DarknessEternal wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
No, if the emperor died, he would have simply died. This way he became a deity, something he never was in life. They lost, hard. Their legions were depleted, they were confined to one (okay, two with the maelstrom) regions of space, and their single greatest enemy is more powerful now then he could ever have been.
Nope. If the Emperor dies, he can bring himself back to life. Conversely, he could have become a Warp God as well. Right now, he's fully neither, as he's still a little from column A and a little from column B.
Also, you're still confusing Chaos with the Traitor legions. They aren't remotely equivalent.
No, if the Emperor had died during the Heresy, he would have simply been a dead human. Now, with all of mankind praying for him, he is becoming enormously powerful, building his power in the warp, becoming a deity. He is orders of magnitude more powerful than he ever was in life.
And without their greatest servants the Legionnes Astartes of Chaos, and the black crusades associated with them, chaos would be a much, much smaller threat. Automatically Appended Next Post: Varrick wrote:Nicholas wrote:hellspawn22 wrote:And that brings up another issue. If the Emperor went down, everything would go to hell in a hand-basket before the custodes even noticed. At one point, the Astronomicon just flickered and thousands of ships were lost. So imagine what would happen if it went down for only 15 minutes? The whole Imperium would likely come grinding to a halt. As long as the Emperor isn't on the golden throne, there is no space travel. He would have to haul ass back to Terra and finish that webway gate really fast. And by that time, hundreds of worlds would have been lost.
Not that I doubt the Emperor could fix that in a jiffy.
When the Emperor dies the warp will flow through the webway and they will have to stop it or the entire Imperium will be engulfed by another eye of terror. They either need to evolve until the entire race is psykers or expand beyond it's reach.
I never got that one. Who took a sledge hammer to the support beams and set that u[p to happen?
Magnus. Automatically Appended Next Post: hellspawn22 wrote:Well, as long as the Imperium is around, so will Chaos. In fact, Chaos will likely outlive the Imperium. But that doesn't mean the Imperium has to fail! I for one, will stand by the IoM until the end.
Not really, since other than the Eldar, who are dying, no other major faction would feed them enough power to subsist. the orks don't, the nids don't, the necrons certainly don't...
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Post by: 4M2A
No, if the Emperor had died during the Heresy, he would have simply been a dead human. Now, with all of mankind praying for him, he is becoming enormously powerful, building his power in the warp, becoming a deity. He is orders of magnitude more powerful than he ever was in life.
No.
Worship does not make something a god- Its emotions that create warp gods. The emperor doesn't stand for an emotion and all human emotions fall under one area of chaos. As the fluff currently stands the emperor cannot be turned into a god.
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Post by: im2randomghgh
4M2A wrote:No, if the Emperor had died during the Heresy, he would have simply been a dead human. Now, with all of mankind praying for him, he is becoming enormously powerful, building his power in the warp, becoming a deity. He is orders of magnitude more powerful than he ever was in life.
No.
Worship does not make something a god- Its emotions that create warp gods. The emperor doesn't stand for an emotion and all human emotions fall under one area of chaos. As the fluff currently stands the emperor cannot be turned into a god.
Their faith most definately does manifest in the warp, and it DOES fuel the emperor. This is power that he is pooling so that when/if he dies he can become a god in the most literal sense.
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Post by: hellspawn22
I'm going to side with 4M2A, the Emperor isn't fueled by human emotions or worship. If he was, I don't think he would go around telling everyone that religion is bad and they shouldn't worship him.
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Post by: TrollPie
hellspawn22 wrote:I'm going to side with 4M2A, the Emperor isn't fueled by human emotions or worship. If he was, I don't think he would go around telling everyone that religion is bad and they shouldn't worship him.
But maybe that's what he feared-becoming too powerful. If you knew that religion could give you the power to destroy planets with the flick of the wrist I bet you'd be pretty worried.
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Post by: hellspawn22
I guess, put like that, maybe. But considering the threats of the galaxy, I think I would need them.
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Post by: 4M2A
Strong imperial faith does effect the warp but not in creating gods. It has a similar effect to ork psychic powers. All humans have psychic ability it's just very weak and in most people it's subconscious- groups of humans with strong enough belief act like a single psyker. An example is the living saints they become a focus for all the local psychic energy and it gives trhem special abilities. This effect is humans bending the warp rather than leaving an imprint on it which is what the chaos gods are.
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Post by: Nicholas
hellspawn22 wrote:I'm going to side with 4M2A, the Emperor isn't fueled by human emotions or worship. If he was, I don't think he would go around telling everyone that religion is bad and they shouldn't worship him.
He wanted that while he was alive, probably didn't plan on almost dying. By killing religion and getting around using warp based technology humanity would almost be able to cut itself off from chaos, starving it of most of it's food.
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Post by: Brother Coa
hellspawn22 wrote:Well, as long as the Imperium is around, so will Chaos. In fact, Chaos will likely outlive the Imperium. But that doesn't mean the Imperium has to fail! I for one, will stand by the IoM until the end.
We to brother, we to....
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Post by: TrollPie
If the Emporer came back, I'm pretty sure the High Lords would try to have him executed. Regardless of whether they know who he actually is, they're still corrupt, power-crazed people. If you had unlimited wealth and controlled one of the largest organisations in the galaxy, would you be willing to give it all up to some gold dude with a fancy sword?
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Post by: Nicholas
TrollPie wrote:If the Emporer came back, I'm pretty sure the High Lords would try to have him executed. Regardless of whether they know who he actually is, they're still corrupt, power-crazed people. If you had unlimited wealth and controlled one of the largest organisations in the galaxy, would you be willing to give it all up to some gold dude with a fancy sword?
That gold dude with a fancy sword can likely read their minds and make their heads explode Wealth isn't doing much to heal that
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Post by: Void__Dragon
TrollPie wrote:If the Emporer came back, I'm pretty sure the High Lords would try to have him executed. Regardless of whether they know who he actually is, they're still corrupt, power-crazed people. If you had unlimited wealth and controlled one of the largest organisations in the galaxy, would you be willing to give it all up to some gold dude with a fancy sword?
The Emperor could apparently mentally attack the entire Word Bearers Legion when he was walking around, the second largest Legion at the time.
He would have the High Lords dancing to his tune with but a thought.
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Post by: 4M2A
Not really. The high lords themselves are no match for the emperor but all the armies surrounding terra certainly are. Any attempts to reach terra by anyone will just draw more troops. If he oppenly opposes the high lords he will be fighing not only the majority of imperial forces but the adeptus mechanicus. It may be easy to find humans willing to support him but turning forge worlds isn't going to be so easy and without them his armies will be unable to fight.
People forget, once evn one of the highlords removes support the IoM grinds to a halt. Remove all of them and it's almost impossible to do anything.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
4M2A wrote:Not really. The high lords themselves are no match for the emperor but all the armies surrounding terra certainly are. Any attempts to reach terra by anyone will just draw more troops.
Assuming the Emperor does not already control every commanding officer in the Sol system mentally when he comes back. 
Assuming he does.
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Post by: 4M2A
He is poweful, but not that powerful. Just look at the figures for the amount or troops guarding that system. You just have to look at the HH books to see that the imperial propaganda massively overstates his power. If he could mind control on that scale the siege of terra would never have happened, he would have just made regiments of traitors kill each other. Even if he controlled all the troops the highlords could easily shut down travel for all troops, including their own. It's no good having all those troops if you can't transport soldiers, food or supplies.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
4M2A wrote:He is poweful, but not that powerful. Just look at the figures for the amount or troops guarding that system. You just have to look at the HH books to see that the imperial propaganda massively overstates his power. If he could mind control on that scale the siege of terra would never have happened, he would have just made regiments of traitors kill each other. Even if he controlled all the troops the highlords could easily shut down travel for all troops, including their own. It's no good having all those troops if you can't transport soldiers, food or supplies.
Like I said, in The First Heretic, he apparently was able to affect the entire Word Bearers Legion (Admittedly, not read this book, have only heard of this).
I know he is not as powerful as Imperial Propaganda asserts, as I said, I would wager a sizable amount of Titans would be a bit too much for him to handle.
But he could easily control the High Lords, which is effectively control of the Imperium.
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Post by: Brother Coa
Ok, let us answer the question: the overall answer is good win the battle but evil will win the war ( since it is the beginning of the "end times" ). Unless GW add someone or something that will tip the balance of things...
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Post by: Void__Dragon
Brother Coa wrote:Ok, let us answer the question: the overall answer is good win the battle but evil will win the war ( since it is the beginning of the "end times" ). Unless GW add someone or something that will tip the balance of things...
"Good" loses a lot.
Read the evil codices to see when.
And any time Exterminatus is done, the Imperium has lost.
The Eldar effectively lost Iyanden, sure, they blunted part of Kraken, but the losses to the overall TYranid war effort is minimal, the loss of about two Craftworlds is not good for the Eldar.
I named other times evil won, but am too lazy to recall them.
The Imperium wins more than most, due to popularity and the fact that it legitimately is the most powerful unified fighting force in the material galaxy at the moment, but it is being assailed from all sides, it's slowing dying.
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Post by: hellspawn22
And I think that is the overarching theme of the WH40k universe. Yes, there are bright spots, but everything else is grimdark and getting worse.
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Post by: 4M2A
I agree, there are victories but they are getting smaller and less often. If you look at it on a personal scale there are lots of victories for the imperuim, it's just at a larger scale that it starts to look bad.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Wow. We actually ended up answering the question, after getting so far off topic... I am impressed with myself.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
4M2A wrote:It may be easy to find humans willing to support him but turning forge worlds isn't going to be so easy and without them his armies will be unable to fight.
In one of the Horus Heresy books (possibly Mechancium) doesn't it say that
If He is the one that grants Living Saints their power, it's going to pretty difficult to dispute that He's the Emperor. Not to mention the Custodes would presumably follow his lead.
People forget, once evn one of the highlords removes support the IoM grinds to a halt. Remove all of them and it's almost impossible to do anything.
Except for the leader of the assassins. He's important, but not to the functioning of the Imperium.
Void__Dragon wrote:I would wager a sizable amount of Titans would be a bit too much for him to handle.
If the Emperor is an Alpha-Plus level Psyker (or of equivalent power), then theoretically there is no physical force that could stop Him considering the incredible willpower attributed to Him. Or at least, that's what Lexicanum tells me (about Alpha-Plus level Psykers, that is). Regardless, it shouldn't be difficult for the Emperor to simply avoid or hide from the Titans.
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Post by: hellspawn22
Well, we recently reached the conclusion that regardless, we're doomed.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:If the Emperor is an Alpha-Plus level Psyker (or of equivalent power), then theoretically there is no physical force that could stop Him considering the incredible willpower attributed to Him. Or at least, that's what Lexicanum tells me (about Alpha-Plus level Psykers, that is). Regardless, it shouldn't be difficult for the Emperor to simply avoid or hide from the Titans.
Magnus the Red, the most powerful psyker short of the Emperor, had trouble with two Eldar Titans. Now, granted, these Titans were Daemonically possessed, and each easily dwarfed a Warlord, and he was able to pretty handily deflect their attacks and then destroy one, but he was drained in doing so.
Now, the Emperor is more powerful than Magnus, but Magnus himself is well above the norm for an Alpha-Plus level psyker, being second to the Emperor himself. So, the Emperor would at least have trouble with a sizeable group of Imperator Titans.
He was not the invincible god the Imperium claims him to be, not in the Materium anyway.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:4M2A wrote:It may be easy to find humans willing to support him but turning forge worlds isn't going to be so easy and without them his armies will be unable to fight.
In one of the Horus Heresy books (possibly Mechancium) doesn't it say that
If He is the one that grants Living Saints their power, it's going to pretty difficult to dispute that He's the Emperor. Not to mention the Custodes would presumably follow his lead.
For some reason everyone here is assuming that the High Lords themselves aren't loyal to the Emperor. Sure, they run the Imperium. But they were selected by Him (well, the originals if you believe the GK codex).
Sure, we've had our crazies in power. The Insane High Lord Vandire and the Master of Assassins at one point. But why is there this automatic assumption that the High Lords, subjects of the Emperor as well, would instantly turn upon the one that they hold to be a God? Even if there were those that could even consider such blasphemy, it wouldn't be universal on the Council, and it would be an even tougher sell to the forces around Terra.
People forget, once evn one of the highlords removes support the IoM grinds to a halt. Remove all of them and it's almost impossible to do anything.
Except for the leader of the assassins. He's important, but not to the functioning of the Imperium.
The death of the High Lords would be a severe blow, but ultimately they are replaceable and probably already have likely sucessors waiting in the wings.
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Post by: Outcast115
Anyone read the Word Bearers novels?
those are good examples
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Void__Dragon wrote:
Now, the Emperor is more powerful than Magnus, but Magnus himself is well above the norm for an Alpha-Plus level psyker, being second to the Emperor himself. So, the Emperor would at least have trouble with a sizeable group of Imperator Titans.
Yet, when he was being attacked by a sizable group of titans, he in fact, did nothing.
Don't spread Emperor-omnipotence propaganda, there's no evidence for it.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
DarknessEternal wrote:Void__Dragon wrote:
Now, the Emperor is more powerful than Magnus, but Magnus himself is well above the norm for an Alpha-Plus level psyker, being second to the Emperor himself. So, the Emperor would at least have trouble with a sizeable group of Imperator Titans.
Yet, when he was being attacked by a sizable group of titans, he in fact, did nothing.
Don't spread Emperor-omnipotence propaganda, there's no evidence for it.
I didn't say he was omnipotent, and in fact admitted that his power is overrated.
But to deny the fact that he is powerful is foolish.
The Ruinous Powers feared him for a reason.
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Post by: hellspawn22
I try to refrain from Heresy, but powerful as the God-Emperor is, his armies are even greater. If he were deemed a threat for whatever reason, I think we would crush him. I mean, if he had trouble with a couple of titans, then what about several Titan legions plus dozens of regiments and an entire chapter of space marines? That strength isn't all that hard to muster. I think that his best bet would be to not make an enemy of the High Lords. I would hope that they would remain faithful to Him, but there's no guarantee.
I think he would have to spend many decades, if not centuries, carefully maneuvering. Seeing as he is immortal, it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but there is something of a sense of urgency. Who knows what his return might set off? A massive psychic burst calling in more hivefleets? An upsurge of warpstorms? The Astropaths suffering a collective head-'splosion?
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Post by: Blackhoof
the high lords are cowards and power-hungry, they will not LIKE giving control to the emperor, but they will when the custodes come knocking.
besides, they would be too dazed and shocked to do jack. imagine the mythical being you have believed to be a god for your whole life showing up on your doorstep?
they would capitulate easily.
it would be ironic if the emperor awakening or being reborn as the star child or resurrecting to his great crusade form caused such a disturbance that the impeirums enemies closed in for the kill, to find a unified and faith-driven imperium ready for them.
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Post by: IronChaos
In the GK codex, in the entry for an inmortal hero they have (don't remember his name, sorry :S) it says that he has lived so much he knows Chaos will eventually win and humanity will be dammed, no matter what he or his brothers fight.
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Post by: 4M2A
The custodes aren't a threat either. Custodes are guards,0 not an soldiers. Individualy they are more powerful than SMs but they aren't trained to fight a war. A few SM chapters would wipe out the Adeptus Custodes without difficulty.
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Post by: Nicholas
You guys are all assuming he comes out and says "Oh look I'm the Emperor" on some nameless planet across the galaxy where their are armies in his way. The man is not only the most powerful, but the smartest and charismatic man ever born. Sure he made mistakes, but he did better than anyone ever. He would hardly announce his rebirth until he was already on terra surrounded by his supporters namely the custodes and astartes.
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Post by: hellspawn22
We considered that, and then decided that it would make for a better and longer conversation to assume everyone turned against him.
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Post by: 4M2A
We did look at the idea he would try and work his way up but the problem is that is almost impossible in the IoM. Even if he advances it will take a long time and people will notice someone who lives for hundreds of years without any treatment. There are lots of barriers in place to stop people from advancing too far as the IoM doesn't want people getting above their place.
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Post by: Nicholas
4M2A wrote:We did look at the idea he would try and work his way up but the problem is that is almost impossible in the IoM. Even if he advances it will take a long time and people will notice someone who lives for hundreds of years without any treatment. There are lots of barriers in place to stop people from advancing too far as the IoM doesn't want people getting above their place.
He managed to keep himself hidden on a single planet until he decided to reveal himself I think he can go unnoticed in an entire empire of a million planets. Plus there are pilgrimages to terra for almost any citizen, or he could hop a ride to any astartes homeworld who would listen to anything he said and they could take him. It's not impossible to get to Terra.
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Post by: 4M2A
There are going to be a huge number of checks done to anyone who goes into the Sol system let alone terra. This is the IoM you can't just jump on a passing ship, unless you want to be followed by the inquisition.
When the emperor was hiding there wasn't anyone looking. Now the inquisition is set up to look for people just like the emperor.
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Post by: Nicholas
4M2A wrote:There are going to be a huge number of checks done to anyone who goes into the Sol system let alone terra. This is the IoM you can't just jump on a passing ship, unless you want to be followed by the inquisition.
When the emperor was hiding there wasn't anyone looking. Now the inquisition is set up to look for people just like the emperor.
He would definately be able to mask himself psykically. Why would the Inquisition actively seek out a man who is trying to see Terra. If he wanted to he could blend in with the millions upon millions of people making their way to Terra.
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Post by: 4M2A
Because he is going to check everyone going to terra. The IoM can't risk even a single heretic getting to the emperor.
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Post by: Nicholas
4M2A wrote:Because he is going to check everyone going to terra. The IoM can't risk even a single heretic getting to the emperor.
How exactly are they going to tell him from any other immigrant, as I said he masks himself psychically hitches a ride with astartes or stows away on one of the Imperiums ginormous ships.
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Post by: JamesMclaren123
he could be reborn on the rock and wake up the lion (who will know the emperor well) and then he has the support of a primarch
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Post by: hellspawn22
The orks could decide to stop screwing with us and show that they were actually hyper-intelligent all along, and help the Emperor get to Terra.
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Post by: Alphacerberus
hellspawn22 wrote:The orks could decide to stop screwing with us and show that they were actually hyper-intelligent all along, and help the Emperor get to Terra.
somehow a image of a ork with top hat and cane going how-do you-do to a black templar comes to mind either that or the emperor being reborn as a brainboy xD
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Post by: hellspawn22
xD Perfect image, just perfect.
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