And if he is close enough, you will probably get cut or stabbed in the process. But the BG will suffer a lot more and sustain a LOT more damage.
As stated...that's the point. You may still get sliced, but you will, in all probability, get LESS sliced when the guy with the knife has a few more "speed holes"
And if the BG gets close enough there may be a point when you actually end up aiming it at yourself.
In a grappling situation, perhaps. Yet another reason for a little hand to hand training in addition to firearms. Also why I mentioned selecting a revolver, seeing as the fixed barrel eliminates the liability most autos have in that if you were to, for example, jam the weapon into the opponents gut and squeeze...many of them will go click instead of bang. 1911s, Glocks, etc. can all be pushed out of battery far enough that the hammer or striker will not properly drop/drop at all. Just food for thought, it's not as if autos don't have a long and confirmed history of putting people in the ground.
halonachos wrote:
Dogma, not arguing against your point. A gun and knife, as you have shown as well, are perfectly safe unless someone or something acts upon it.
No, nothing is perfectly safe. The entire world is dangerous, even the ground. Safe is a matter of acceptable danger, not its absence.
You seem to be confusing danger with actual injury. Nothing can injure anything without action, but danger exists prior to action because it is a matter of potential.
halonachos wrote:
Dogma, not arguing against your point. A gun and knife, as you have shown as well, are perfectly safe unless someone or something acts upon it.
No, nothing is perfectly safe. The entire world is dangerous, even the ground. Safe is a matter of acceptable danger, not its absence.
You seem to be confusing danger with actual injury. Nothing can injure anything without action, but danger exists prior to action because it is a matter of potential.
If a knife sits on a counter unmolested by anything then no one can be harmed by it, once an outside force acts upon it then it becomes dangerous but not before that happens. There is the potential that a child may touch it and hurt themselves but then the child has acted upon the knife. There is a chance that an earthquake could rattle the knife off of the counter and impale someone who has also fallen but then the earthquake has acted upon the knife. The list goes on and on, the knife itself is a static object and is safe unless acted upon because there is no chance that a knife would be able to hurt someone unless it came into contact with them. Everything is a matter of potential, but I would reckon that the odds of the potential event occurring are relatively small. I also fail to see how a pair of underwear could be dangerous unless you compound it with a great deal of external factors and could then blame the external factors.
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Albatross wrote:Who knew that so many nerds were rootin' tootin' gunslingers...?
Before I go on about my sidearm of choice I just want to say that if 99% of people went through the absolute ice in the blood horror of what constitutes an after effect of what taking another life does to you like I have (I Was in the Parachute Regiment for around 5 years) then ownership of guns would, in a word, PLUMMET and no mistake! Be that as it may, since we do live in a world that makes them, sadly, necassary and if I had to own one then I would go for the Sig P226 9mm parabellum ANY DAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAYS! With no less than 15 rounds in it you should have enough to give a burglar something to think about (however brief that may be). It is rather sad I think that they are becoming more and more ubiquitous around the world though, but thats another story. Hmm...But still, it is a nice piece that I have had the honour of carrying on my person when I was a squadie.
absolute ice in the blood horror of what constitutes an after effect of what taking another life does to you like I have
My father taught me a very valuable lesson on this note, for he did have first hand experience with the above repeatedly, and it certainly messed him up good:
halonachos wrote:
If a knife sits on a counter unmolested by anything then no one can be harmed by it, once an outside force acts upon it then it becomes dangerous but not before that happens. There is the potential that a child may touch it and hurt themselves but then the child has acted upon the knife.
The knife also acted upon the child by resisting his touch (that's how cuts happen). At this level of abstraction action isn't akin to the colloquial sense, in which it is restricted to animate objects.
halonachos wrote:
I also fail to see how a pair of underwear could be dangerous unless you compound it with a great deal of external factors and could then blame the external factors.
You're still not understanding what "dangerous" means. Danger is about potential, which means that if any circumstance could ever exist which might lead to object X causing harm, then object X is dangerous.
Sitting in front of your computer is dangerous. The world is practically bathed in low levels of radiation. One of your cells could mutate and become cancerous no mater how "perfectly safe" you try to live.
To the original question, while they are not glamorous or sexy the Glock series of pistols are some of the best handguns in the world. Relatively cheap, reliable and easy to find parts and accessories for. The trigger pull can be stiff but some see this as a safety feature, making it harder to accidentally discharge.
I've got several, including a G20C shooter for range time and a G29 carry weapon. My wife's is a G19.
The Green Git wrote:To the original question, while they are not glamorous or sexy the Glock series of pistols are some of the best handguns in the world. Relatively cheap, reliable and easy to find parts and accessories for. The trigger pull can be stiff but some see this as a safety feature, making it harder to accidentally discharge.
I've got several, including a G20C shooter for range time and a G29 carry weapon. My wife's is a G19.
As a carry piece it's definitely up there with the best.
Melissia did you ever end up getting yourself that 1911?
Colt model 01991=A good buy. You've already stated the many good reasons to buy it.
My only advice is don't buy a Beretta M9. It's a nice accurate pistol, but I had more than 1 of those piece of gak M9 pistols stovepipe on me at the range, and I can't even count the number of times I have seen a M9 stovepipe on a shipmate at the range.
I know a 1911 can theoretically stovepipe, but I've never had it happen to me, I have never seen it happen, and it's not a frequent complaint of 1911 owners.
I never had that happen with an M9, and di put my share of rounds down range with one in the early 90s. Did see a guy not hold it correctly at a range I was running. The slide came back and almost took off his thumb. Several stiches...
This is one of the guns I own. It's the one I carry in a pocket; and I would have no problems shooting through my clothes do defend myself.
It can be loaded with .410 shotgun shells or .45 ammo.
With the .410, I get a 3" pattern at 10' and 1" pattern at 5'.
I keep it loaded with Federal Arms personal defence rounds. (it has 3 balls with discs *look like watch batteries* stacked on top.) These rounds are DEVESTATING at close range.
I like this chambering so much, I bought a Tarus Judge for fun!
My only advice is don't buy a Beretta M9. It's a nice accurate pistol, but I had more than 1 of those piece of gak M9 pistols stovepipe on me at the range, and I can't even count the number of times I have seen a M9 stovepipe on a shipmate at the range.
I know a 1911 can theoretically stovepipe, but I've never had it happen to me, I have never seen it happen, and it's not a frequent complaint of 1911 owners.
Allow me to present a counter-anecdote: Old 92F, not even a 92FS, an F. 2300 rounds. One malfunction. One. Ejected brass came up into my view of the front sight and everything suddenly ground to a halt with a beautiful, perfectly vertical stovepipe.
1911s however, from Colt gold cups to Springfield Mil-Specs, all bite the <CENSORED> out of my hand without a beavertail safety, and they seem to be the king of feedway stoppages. -My- particular 1911 seems content to only FTF or FTEj once per hundred rounds, and I have around 500 through the thing now. I suppose it keeps me on my toes with malfunction drills...There may be a 1911 that I would consider useful for "Srs Bzsns" ...but I sure as heck haven't put my hand on it yet.
Not yet. One dosen't rush into a several hundred dollar purchase
SOFDC: Maybe yours is lower quality? I've read many reviews of the Colt Government Model 01991A1 (the one I mentioned in the OP) where they fired 500+ or even 1000+ rounds with no problems.
The purpose of a gun is to kill whatever is threatening your life.
The only 2 caliber guns in general use that can do a DRT (Dead Right There) with one shot are in .45 and .40
The one that has a long history of over a century of doing that reliably is a 45.
The U.S. Army got rid of theirs a few years ago (The organization with the most experience and the mission of doing more DRT's than anyone) for a 9mm.
They are now dumping the 9mm toys are are evaluating whether to go back to the 45 or something in .40.
I will tell you SOCOM is a .45 only organization.
I have one weapon at my house.
It is a .45 just like the one I used in the big green machine.
Over 20 years of carrying one in addition to my service rifle and I know for a fact I hit what I point at and what I hit does not get back up, and that was with full metal jacket ball ammo. They have the good stuff now.
There are several makers of good .45's for $400. Good magazines are the thing to make sure of.
When you get one, practice, practice, practice with the same ammo you plan on having in it if you need to defend yourself.
Get a concealed carry license as well. Its hard to hide a 45 on you but you would be surprised how often folks ignore your computer bag, jacket pocket or purse if you are a woman like my wife.
If you have no kids keep it on your nightstand at night, seconds do count.... If you do have kids training them beats gun locks every time. Both my sons learned guns are not toys early and grew into their own.
Her's hoping you get one you are comfortable with enough to keep it with you and not locked up when you most need it and it's a good DRT gun.
By the way poor ammo and poor magazines cause most jams and stovepipes. Fire the recommended grain bullet with a good magazine and you will have very few failures to functions or stoves.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote:The only 2 caliber guns in general use that can do a DRT (Dead Right There) with one shot are in .45 and .40
At the moment it's likely either a Colt Government Model 01991A1 or a SIG Sauer P250 (either full size or compact, whichever feels better in my hand). The former is obviously .45 ACP, the latter I'm thinking I might get in .40 S&W, but it also comes in .45 ACP or .357 SIG. Dunno, I've done far more research on the guns themselves, but the ammunition is a bit less clear to me.
the thing with a compact is they kick. Remember the practice practice practice. Folks who get a big caliber gun in a small size realize it hurts to practice practice practice at the range and they either quit practicing or use a lower grain bullet leading to more failure to function issues.
You need to go to a gun range that rents guns and fire at least 50 to 100 rounds and see if it is comfortable for you.
May be heresy to say it but sigs are good guns too.
I've read many reviews of the Colt Government Model 01991A1 (the one I mentioned in the OP) where they fired 500+ or even 1000+ rounds with no problems.
Oh, it's most certainly lower end. Springfield Armory (Not the old one. The people who "Make" the 300 dollar Croatian pistol, slap "Xtreme" on it and charge 500+...) but i've managed to screw up Colts and Kimbers as well. The reasons? Well, ones extractor went out-of-tune, another I can only assume that the magazines were worn out, one did not like the profile of a JHP projectile and didn't like feeding it.
Whatever you get, take the pistol. Take several hundred rounds of -WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO CARRY IN THE THING- and go shoot. If you research out that you want to carry the thing loaded with SuperDeathHollowpoints Mk 5, go buy a couple hundred rounds of it, and make sure it feeds when YOUR hands are supporting it, YOUR ammo is going into the tube, YOUR magazines are feeding it. Going and buying a couple 100 round FMJ Val-U-Paks from wal-mart and then loading the sucker up with something else and carrying it around may or may not tell you a darn thing about your particular weapons reliability.
Now, as to caliber and bullet...depends. In Texas I went with the 9mm due to -MUCH- greater capacity and ammunition was cheaper on all levels. Here in Commiefornia, where I am limited to 10 rounds per mag, big or small...while .40 and .45 may only make an academic difference (Will get to this in a moment.) on the target, there is no reason I shouldn't try to eke out what small advantages are legally possible in this situation and went with .40...additionally, this gives me ammo and magazine compatibility with my roommates.
Now, ballistically...go look at the really nice JHP terminal ballistics tests. Even a 9mm will expand to ridiculous diameters, and while .45 fans like to remark that "A .45 will never shrink!"...an extra 2.43mm in the bullet diameter will -not- make up for a poorly placed shot. The vaunted momentum increase with .40 and .45 are also...pretty laughable actually. The physics do not lie, and my approx. 15 pound arm moving at a rather sedate 3 feet per second (Think: Me backhanding someone. Rather gently.) will impart a hell of a lot more -MOMENTUM- than a 230gr .45 moving at 850 FPS. The difference is, a .45 is akin to me backhanding someone with a 9 inch metal spike attached to the back of my fist.
All of the common calibers are common for a reason: They work. However none of them are going to give you some magical, rules of the universe breaking advantage. None of them should be depended on to throw the Goblin backwards into the wall, stop a charge by a drugged up 200 pound angry male humanoid, or knock an armored man over with a single round. Now, this is not taking into account psychology, this is not taking into account peoples tendancy to hop away from the direction of an applied force, or to think "Oh god, I have been shot!" and faint.
A handgun is an icepick thrower. That's all it is. A well ran handgun is a sewing machine that kills people, not a hollywood handcannon. Make sure it works every time, you can make your hits, and you can do it repeatedly under time pressure.
halonachos wrote:
If a knife sits on a counter unmolested by anything then no one can be harmed by it, once an outside force acts upon it then it becomes dangerous but not before that happens. There is the potential that a child may touch it and hurt themselves but then the child has acted upon the knife.
The knife also acted upon the child by resisting his touch (that's how cuts happen). At this level of abstraction action isn't akin to the colloquial sense, in which it is restricted to animate objects.
halonachos wrote:
I also fail to see how a pair of underwear could be dangerous unless you compound it with a great deal of external factors and could then blame the external factors.
You're still not understanding what "dangerous" means. Danger is about potential, which means that if any circumstance could ever exist which might lead to object X causing harm, then object X is dangerous.
Semantics, why do you always have to raise the stupidest arguments dogma? I feel that there might be some sort of complex that causes you to want to start an argument over the definition of any word spoken in the off topic forum, it feels borderline trollish.
Saying M9's are terrible because they jammed on you at the range, is like buying a used, beat up lemon of a car then saying the 2011 model sucks.
Military weapons are treated like trash, especially the ones used for instruction, they have 100's of thousands of rounds through them and most of the parts are used until they break.
With my 90-Two I've had maybe 2 stove pipes out of a few thousand rounds, simple slap rack and fire and was good to go. Except for the time I through it in a mud puddle during a storm, had 2 jams alone out of a the 12rnd mag.
The mud had gotten into the chamber and was screwing it up royally, simple wipe down though and it was good to go.
Melissia wrote:So if I were hypothetically to get the compact P250 (it depends on which feels most comfortable in my hand) I should probably get it in .357 SIG?
Meh. .357 sigs are good if you need penetration (some of the first police users of this round were subway cops, as it was found to be able to go through a seat, but not two seats). Unless you're thinking of trading fire with someone in a vest thats a no. If you're worried about prenetration for a pistol get a +p and especially a Corbon solid copper round.
(edited for being more hostile than I intended)
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot - 1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.
2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.
Cardio
The Double Tap Beware of Bathrooms
Wear Seat Belts
No Attachments
The “Skillet”
Travel Light
Get a Kick Ass Partner
With your Bare Hands
Don’t Swing Low
Use Your Foot
Bounty Paper Towels
Shake it Off
Always carry a change of underwear
Bowling Ball
Opportunity Knocks
Don’t be a hero (later crossed out to be a hero)
Limber Up
Break it Up
It’s a marathon, not a sprint, unless it’s a sprint, then sprint
Avoid Strip Clubs
When in doubt Know your way out
Zipplock
Use your thumbs
Shoot First
A little sun screen never hurt anybody
Incoming!
Double-Knot your Shoes
The Buddy System
Pack your stain stick
Check the back seat
Enjoy the little things
Swiss army Knife
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Sckitzo wrote:Saying M9's are terrible because they jammed on you at the range, is like buying a used, beat up lemon of a car then saying the 2011 model sucks.
Military weapons are treated like trash, especially the ones used for instruction, they have 100's of thousands of rounds through them and most of the parts are used until they break.
With my 90-Two I've had maybe 2 stove pipes out of a few thousand rounds, simple slap rack and fire and was good to go. Except for the time I through it in a mud puddle during a storm, had 2 jams alone out of a the 12rnd mag.
The mud had gotten into the chamber and was screwing it up royally, simple wipe down though and it was good to go.
My 92 is the utterly most reliable pistol I've ever seen. Its never jammed. Its never FTF'd. Its utterly reliable. Even more reliable than my hogleg .44 and good revolvers are acquired to BE reliable.
Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.
2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people.
Good advice all. The biggest cannon in the world does no good if you can't hit your target, and you'd be surprised how fast you can empty a clip and wish you had more rounds. The 9mm is a popular round for a reason; you can carry a lot of shots and it's easy to shoot accurately. It will kill just as dead as a 10mm and .45.
And as for the one shot techniques, bad idea. If you have the gun out and it's making noise, you want to shoot until the threat is neutralized. That doesn't mean "take a shot and see if the target is dead" but "shoot until the target is down".
Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal.
While that's true, surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm.
Yes. But a center mass shot is what counts, not the caliber.
Those with high capacity 9mms will argue they have X# of chances to hit. Vs. multiple bad guys thats not bad as generally BG's are not going kamikaze. Stalkers on the other hand are a different story. As a reference I can put 3-4 9mms downrange in the same time it takes to put 2 230 grain 45ACP hollowpoints. It gets kind of meh as to which is better. Its which one the shooter can shoot better that counts.
Regardless a nice Hornady or CorBon 9mm is going to be wicked. A Hornady or Corbon .45ACP is going to be wicked as well.
surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm
Sure. The puncture wound willl be slightly larger in diameter, but situations which will laugh at one calibers capabilities will generally laugh at both. .01% can still be considered "More Effective" after all.
It's your basic failure drill with an extra chest shot and one hip shot, Feds and others started aiming for the hip in case the perp is wearing body armor.
There has been situations where people have died from one .22 round, and cases where guys have lived with multiple .45 hydrashocks to center of mass. Let me dig up this report I was reading, it really boils down to "Carry what you want as long as you train with it." The only reason I shy away from .357 Sig is it can be hard to find sometimes, and tends to be more expensive then the rest of the calibers I shoot.
But that's here in AZ, if you can find a reliable source for a decent price and can stock up a bit on ammo, by all means go with that round, as long as you practice.
Here is that article, I suggest everyone at least glance at it, the results may surprise you.
Frazzled wrote:1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal.
While that's true, surely if you get hit, say, in the arm with a .45 it will still be more effective than a 9mm.
Has obviously never been shot. I got hit in the upper arm by a 9mm while running away from the shooter and besides hurting like hell, it put me down for the count. It didnt KNOCK me down. Then again a .45 wouldnt either... this isnt the movies. If you want to shoot someone and watch them fly backwards, better get a double barreled 10 gauge... course, If you can hold that while pulling both triggers... why do you NEED a gun.
Personally I like the feel of a good large frame .45, But if you are looking for something for self defense and fun to shot i have to say look into the torus p 92, its a cheaper good gun with enough options and after market parts to actually have a great gun. Of course you could always go the route of a good old fashion 1911, just about every company makes "Their" version of the gun, but they are all great guns. Right now I am saving up for the one gun that i have been wanting for about 13 years, and that would just happen to be a Desert Eagle brushed steel and black .50 A&E, but hey that might be a little on the over kill side of things. Just what ever you do, don't go after the S&W .500. You can't go wrong with a spring field or a sig, But if you need a little more help or want to see some more hand guns look up Hickok45 on youtube. He test fires and talks about all things gun. so look him up and see what he can tell you.
Frazzled wrote:
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot - 1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.
2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.
I would agree that bullet placement is real important and always put a second round in.
My statement was that I have seen a few drop after the first shot with a 45, never said we did not put another in the other side of the chest for good measure. No one lives with both lungs gone.
Head shots are for movies. We had a mp shot at point blank range with his own 9mm after he surrendered to a group of technicals. He woke up and walked to friendlies.... I seem to remember a civilian dude in Africa shot in the head with a 9mm who woke up a few minutes later. Think it happened 4 or 5 years ago. These were not side of the head shots, but right into the skull. I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.
I would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass while I have never seen a gomer standing after take a 45 in the chest. Makes the second shot easier if he is not still standing. If you have a gomer pop up on you and he is still standing after 5 or 6 rounds you are not going to get to shoot those other 10 or 11 9mm rounds anyway.
What i am getting at is in a high stress unexpected moment when you are rattled and you are going to go for the center of mass of the guy 5 feet from you, knocking him on the ground with your first hit is more important that having another 10 rounds in the gun he just took away from you because you did not take him down when the 9mm round left him standing and still coming at you. No one is ever calm and steady at that time, gets back to practice practice practice.
I am not talking from a report where some guy collected clippings on shootings but on what us military have seen first hand with those determined to die motivated guys.
I am telling you 9mm does not do as well as 45. Period.
If you need a number that ends with a teen to kill the guy who came after you in your home you really need a shotgun, which is likely the best home defense weapon ever made. The sound of a pump shotgun loading a shell is enough to stop most home attacks by itself.
Bullet placement is important but to be honest someone surprised is always going to shoot center of mass, and a 45 is better than a 9 mm.
Of course if you are set on a 9mm there will be about 239, 000 of them for sale cheap in a year or so... http://www.militarytimes.com/community/opinion/army-editorial-good-riddance-to-troubled-m9-pistol-082911w/ I'll give you a hint "Good riddance to troubled M9 pistol" is the title of the article describing how the Army and Marines are dumping all 9mm weapons due to among other things "dangerously lacking in firepower" and "The new-issue pistol must be all things the M9 is not: lethal, etc..."
My fathers crew chief in vietnam took a round from a stolen quad .50 (along with part of the helicopters airframe that the bullet dragged with it) in the gut, and from what I am told could see sunlight through the hole. Lucid, talking with the pilot and co-pilot all the way back to base. This does not imply that you need a 20mm to reliably stop a man.
He also related to me a story where he fired his gunships quad M60 at a man running across a runway, hit him multiple times, yet the man did not stop and vanished into the treeline. This does not imply that you need 2.75 FFARs or nothing.
The article you linked is quite interesting, but...I am not sure what I am supposed to outraged by. A man with immediate access to long arms and mounted weapons saying that a handgun is the least accurate and effective weapon he has fired? ....Duh?
Also:
I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.
Well, on the first page of google when I searched, I found two cases of a .45 to the head:
What do these anecdotes mean? Not much, because the plural of "Anecdote" is not "Data."
would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass
I don't find this surprising, as stated before, most healthy adult males are going to be able to put more momentum behind punching someone in the face than either a 9mm or .45 impact. This is also not surprising given the amount of space in the human torso where a 9mm tunnel (or .45 tunnel...or occasionally .75 tunnel) can be bored yet not hit anything that will cause an immediate "BODY WORK NO MORE" result.
I don't expect game animals to instantly drop when hit in the vitals with a rifle round or shotgun slug, let alone expect that a handgun on a determined attacker will perform a magical one shot stop. Should the situation ever occur for me and it DOES happen...great! I lucked out! But I am <CENSORED> sure not going to plan for it.
Hmm, as you mention the bullet went through the front windshield of a car first before it hit her. I'm sure that had nothing to do with her survival...
Hmm, second link the bullet was shot in the jaw and the bullet exited his neck, and he was wearing armor, that's not what we call a skull shot.
I was talking about into the skull protecting the brain without a car windshield or a mouth shout that never hit the brain.
I have alot of guns, more or less a collection with family. Either way for hand guns the colt you have up there would be awesome. I have a 45 glock and I really like it. Overall id have to say my favorite handgun is a 9mm Beretta, you can't go wrong. It doesn't have insane stopping power but has some great pros. 9mm has very little recoil, the guns are made very well. Pretty accurate for sure. You might get lucky and find one at a pawn shop cheap, its not likely but I've got some wicked deals. http://www.crazywheelies.com/media/beretta%2092.jpg
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NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
To the poster about .40 and .45 being the only one stop shot - 1) Bullet placement trumps round size. Larger calibers are good against more motivated targets but all of them are lethal. As the poster noted a second ago 9mms have superior capacity (Texas there aren't limits). I would note only that, if you're getting a pistol for portection I'd lean towards a heavy caliber if you're reacting to a stalker type-they tend to be more motivated.
2) never practice one shot techniques. thats great for paper punching and Dirty Harry, but not for real people. In the words of our the immortal bard.
I would agree that bullet placement is real important and always put a second round in.
My statement was that I have seen a few drop after the first shot with a 45, never said we did not put another in the other side of the chest for good measure. No one lives with both lungs gone.
Head shots are for movies. We had a mp shot at point blank range with his own 9mm after he surrendered to a group of technicals. He woke up and walked to friendlies.... I seem to remember a civilian dude in Africa shot in the head with a 9mm who woke up a few minutes later. Think it happened 4 or 5 years ago. These were not side of the head shots, but right into the skull. I can not say I have ever head of anyone take a 45 to the skull and wake up and walk around.
I would also say I have seen 9mm rounds not knock a guy down who was standing when hit center of mass while I have never seen a gomer standing after take a 45 in the chest. Makes the second shot easier if he is not still standing. If you have a gomer pop up on you and he is still standing after 5 or 6 rounds you are not going to get to shoot those other 10 or 11 9mm rounds anyway.
What i am getting at is in a high stress unexpected moment when you are rattled and you are going to go for the center of mass of the guy 5 feet from you, knocking him on the ground with your first hit is more important that having another 10 rounds in the gun he just took away from you because you did not take him down when the 9mm round left him standing and still coming at you. No one is ever calm and steady at that time, gets back to practice practice practice.
I am not talking from a report where some guy collected clippings on shootings but on what us military have seen first hand with those determined to die motivated guys.
I am telling you 9mm does not do as well as 45. Period.
If you need a number that ends with a teen to kill the guy who came after you in your home you really need a shotgun, which is likely the best home defense weapon ever made. The sound of a pump shotgun loading a shell is enough to stop most home attacks by itself.
Bullet placement is important but to be honest someone surprised is always going to shoot center of mass, and a 45 is better than a 9 mm.
Of course if you are set on a 9mm there will be about 239, 000 of them for sale cheap in a year or so... http://www.militarytimes.com/community/opinion/army-editorial-good-riddance-to-troubled-m9-pistol-082911w/ I'll give you a hint "Good riddance to troubled M9 pistol" is the title of the article describing how the Army and Marines are dumping all 9mm weapons due to among other things "dangerously lacking in firepower" and "The new-issue pistol must be all things the M9 is not: lethal, etc..."
Have a good night all.
The 45 has some great stopping power and I loved my glock but I wouldn't take it up on a 9mm. I can be more mobile with a 9mm and if I shoot with a 9mm I won't miss. Head shots are realistic if you've shot guns all your life. If you do get shot with a 9mm and get up and walk away your lucky, period. But he makes an excellent point. A shotgun is the BEST home defense firearm, hands down. You can get shotguns dirt cheap. Even a 14 gauge is going to do the trick. That sound of the reload is probably horrifying when your on the other end of the barrel.
I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.
I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own, assuming it's for self-defense. First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you. (duh) Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!. Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.
I myself think a 1911 is quite a big weapon to easily conceal yet be able to draw in a situation. I'm personally looking at the M&P line for defense and target shooting. It's chambered in a variety of tasty calibers, isn't bad on the eyes, and is pretty good on the wallet, starting at around $600.
EDIT: Certain models also come with adjustable palmwell sizes, for an individual and better feel
LumenPraebeo wrote:I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.
I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own, assuming it's for self-defense. First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you. (duh) Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!.Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.
I disagree with your 5th point. If you have to pull a gun in self defense, you had better be ready to kill someone, and be trying to.
LumenPraebeo wrote:I want a gun, but I can't get one until I get a job and my own house.
I may not know much about guns, but after reading everyone's post, I would like to make a suggestion of my own
If you don't know much about guns then you shouldn't be making suggestions
assuming it's for self-defense
If you read the OP, or half the thread, you would know its for self defense
First, get one you can afford. Second, get one you think works best for you.
These two points are pretty obvious, and already said by both the OP and half the posters, but with actual examples and suggestions
Third, do NOT get one that does little to no damage. Fourth, get one that hurts.....alot!!!. Fifth, do NOT get one that can easily kill someone outright.
At this point one could think your trolling. These three statements contradict each other so horribly that no one can take you seriously.
I'm not trying to be a D-bag, but you really should think, and research, before you make a post, especially if its one you know nothing about. If you know little about pistols, or firearms in general, you could have just put up a question instead of that... post. Someone would have gladly answered it.
now before anyone says it, yes the irish gun laws make ownership near to impossible but my boss is a competition shooter and having shot his ruger .22 rimfire, id say its competent.
If moneys an issue then the Ruger No1 used to sell for 32 dollars when it came out(in the 50's but it should still be cheap no?), now having no experience with this cartridge on a flesh target, i cant speak for its penetrating power and it is an extremely ludite weapon. the silhouette is a nice look, reminiscent of a Luger 08. I remember an airsoft magazine commentating that it had been used by SEAL's as a 'hush puppy', (which if anyone can explain what that means it would appreciated) but as Mellisa said herself, any gun can kill a person.
just a suggestion from someone with very little knowledge of guns for personnal defense.
*edit* do you think a gun general descusion theard would be of use on the forums?
A Hush Puppy is a weapon that has a suppressor and other modifications to lower the amount of moving parts and thus the noise the weapon makes when firing. The S&W mk22 mod 0 for example had a slide lock, preventing the slide from automatically moving back with each shot.
assultmarine wrote:
*edit* do you think a gun general descusion theard would be of use on the forums?
I don't think a general discussion would be useful, it can go in far to many directions, then the OT line gets blurred, and bad things happen.
good point, the OT is......not renowned for its ability to stay on topic
*edit* thanks for that info Mel, much appreciated
Plus starting out with a topic makes it easier to not get the thread locked when the anti-gun folks get riled up, as its easier to just say "lets not get OT" and be done with it.
@Mel:
If you saw the last episode of Top Shot, they used the gun I suggested in the Elimination Challenge.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:Sigh...
If you don't know much about guns then you shouldn't be making suggestions
If you read the OP, or half the thread, you would know its for self defense
These two points are pretty obvious, and already said by both the OP and half the posters, but with actual examples and suggestions
At this point one could think your trolling. These three statements contradict each other so horribly that no one can take you seriously.
I'm not trying to be a D-bag, but you really should think, and research, before you make a post, especially if its one you know nothing about. If you know little about pistols, or firearms in general, you could have just put up a question instead of that... post. Someone would have gladly answered it.
I was reluctant to post in the first place, seeing as I don't have much experience towards them. But just because I don't know much, doesn't negate my right to make a suggestion. By the way, thank you for pointing me out, saying you're not trying to be a with the entire post implying that exact intention. I especially like how you seperately pick out every few words and make a statement about it. I merely put in a suggestion, seeing as I found the thread interesting. Poor as my opinion may be, that doesn't exactly mean mines must be taken into consideration.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:Sigh...
If you don't know much about guns then you shouldn't be making suggestions
If you read the OP, or half the thread, you would know its for self defense
These two points are pretty obvious, and already said by both the OP and half the posters, but with actual examples and suggestions
At this point one could think your trolling. These three statements contradict each other so horribly that no one can take you seriously.
I'm not trying to be a D-bag, but you really should think, and research, before you make a post, especially if its one you know nothing about. If you know little about pistols, or firearms in general, you could have just put up a question instead of that... post. Someone would have gladly answered it.
I was reluctant to post in the first place, seeing as I don't have much experience towards them. But just because I don't know much, doesn't negate my right to make a suggestion. By the way, thank you for pointing me out, saying you're not trying to be a with the entire post implying that exact intention. I especially like how you seperately pick out every few words and make a statement about it. I merely put in a suggestion, seeing as I found the thread interesting. Poor as my opinion may be, that doesn't exactly mean mines must be taken into consideration.
Think what you want about my ness, I was ALOT nicer then some of the other people that would have eventually said something. I picked it apart because your "suggestion" didn't contribute anything whatsoever to the topic, and actually contradicted itself for the most part. I never negated your right to make a suggestion, I said you should look into the subject first, 5 minutes on Google or a question to one of us could have made that a very different post, and like I said, asking a question won't get you laughed at, everyone starts somewhere. But putting the buggy in front of the horse only gets you in trouble. If you have further issues with me or what I said feel free to PM me as I don't wish to OT this thread anymore. Cheers
Drama aside, I think I'm gonna wait a bit. College funds come first after all. It's kinda also why I often buy games that are five years old and thus dirt cheap, lol...
Though the guns aren't likely to be any cheaper, that's for sure. At any rate, I still enjoy talking about them and potential buyers. Has there been any gun handle actually designed specifically for the average female hands?
Has there been any gun handle actually designed specifically for the average female hands?
None that I can remember top of my head. Course, a lot of modern firearms aren't designed for the average MALE hand (Hi H&K!) either. Best way is to just go put your hands on a lot of hardware, particularly weapons like the M&P with interchangeable grip components, or things like the "SF" marked Glocks and see what fits.
Dunno about the SIG offering, but the changing grip panels turned the M&P into something that fit my hand well enough to put it on my "Will buy" list. Made me also contemplate replacing the Glock at the time, deciding factor would have been a range outing which I could not get.
Well, once upon a time, there was a boy. A boy who got the rules of handling a firearm safely drilled into him by his daddy. Then he was given a BB gun on his 11th birthday, and he read the <CENSORED> instruction manual.
What happened in the ensuing years was repetition and expansion on that done on my own time.
Family exposed me to guns really young, much younger then my Mom knew about
My Uncle is a fairly burned out Nam vet, but never had any sons so when I would visit them for a week or so when I was younger, around 5 or 6, he would take me out in the woods and started teach me to shoot on a old pump action .22, then around 7 or so started learning on a 10/22 (boy was my mom surprised when I already knew how to use it) and she agreed to let me learn her .22 Ruger pistol (revolver type) it went on for years and years, maybe around 10 or 11 I was upgraded to shotguns and a SKS and some other higher caliber revolver, though the .44 mag didn't last very long, scared the piss outta me. Around 16 my grandfather gave me a .22 pistol, then about 2 weeks later "traded" me for his .357 Mag, he was getting on in years and the snubby hurt his wrists to bad. Of course it had to stay in the safe with the rest of the guns, but was "mine" in a form.
Then joined the military at 18, and spent the last 8 years learning alot more, though my foundation and the the safety rules beat into me certainly helped.
My dad was a small game hunting buff, and so taught my brothers and I. My oldest joined the Marines and learned more there, and the Giant and myself just like to target shoot and whatnot, and learn about firearms by surfing internet forums and talking to the guys that know what they are talking about
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:I myself think a 1911 is quite a big weapon to easily conceal yet be able to draw in a situation. I'm personally looking at the M&P line for defense and target shooting. It's chambered in a variety of tasty calibers, isn't bad on the eyes, and is pretty good on the wallet, starting at around $600.
EDIT: Certain models also come with adjustable palmwell sizes, for an individual and better feel
Before you get one ILB be sure to test shoot one. The triggers are reported to be a bit mushy. This is one I have looked at and from what I have garnered:
*Decent accuracy and fewer parts to break down.
*Glock action et al. On the positive there is also a manual safety if you like that (I like that).
*Cost is very moderate.
*Easy dissassembly.
*Trigger is mushy but fairly accurate.
*There are cheap after market trigger kits to help this - making it a good action pistol or alternatively a good target setup.
*There are also aftermarket match grade barrels for it.
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Melissia wrote:Lolwut.
Drama aside, I think I'm gonna wait a bit. College funds come first after all. It's kinda also why I often buy games that are five years old and thus dirt cheap, lol...
Though the guns aren't likely to be any cheaper, that's for sure. At any rate, I still enjoy talking about them and potential buyers. Has there been any gun handle actually designed specifically for the average female hands?
1. As noted there are several pistol lines now that have adjustable palm swells. All are good: S&W (Smith and Wesson); Glock; Walther; and Springfield Armory (XDM series).
2. Hand size is truly a personal thing. Grandma Frazzled has a small .380 but she always liked shooting the standard 1911 size. I've had women like model 29s and blast away (the Dirty Harry Revolver but with pachmyr grips); and both Genghis Connie and She Who Must Be Obeyed like the Beretta 92 with Hogue finger grips.
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assultmarine wrote:whilst wer'e on the subject of fire-arms, how did you all learn to shoot?
In this order:
*Frazzled Sr. ("Come on kid, we're going to shoot this rifle." "Its bigger than I am." "Quit you'r whining and get bigger.")
*A group I hung out with in college. This included former Rangers (Vietnam era not current) and the range master for San Bernardino County sheriffs (this is awhile ago, he's likely retired now). This is the groupI had the most fun with. We shot pistols at targets across a valley, blew up water heaters and car doors, taped mirrors to shoot rifles upside down, then sort of fun stuff.
*Private lessons (shotgun)
*Private lessons (pistol)
assultmarine wrote:whilst wer'e on the subject of fire-arms, how did you all learn to shoot?
From a family of vets going from Vietnam back thru Korea and World War II. Shot my first M1911 at 12, boy was that a surprise..... Got serious shooting instruction from Uncle Sam at 17 and carried one on and off for 22 years along with my primary weapon.
The supposed lack of stopping power with the M9 has everything to do with the ammo and our ridiculous rules regarding ammunition in the military, not the pistol. Especially against un-armored targets at close range (which is usually when a pistol is needed!!). The Ball ammo goes right through. It's the difference between getting a sewing needle jammed in your arm (hurts like hell, but it isn't the end of the world) and having a sledgehammer come crashing down on your arm with full force. The hollowpoint (or even wadcutters for that matter) are vastly superior to FMJ when it comes to stopping something fleshy. They hit harder over a larger area. Plus the bullets do more damage to the flesh causing severe wounds that are pretty much going to kill the target unless they're in a hospital.
NeedleOfInquiry wrote:Full metal jacket does tend to go thru ballistic vests when a hollow point won't.
Different environments- Home vs combat zone.
Strange that the 45 uses FMJ and does not have the 9mm problem.....
Bigger bullet my man, difference between 130 grains and 230 is night and day, plus the powder loads are so different too. Lots of different sizes between these two rounds also.
I haven't seen where many FMJ pistol rounds have punched through Class III Vests, rifle rounds do it routinely. Obviously Hollow points don't, but they hit a lot harder in a relatively larger area (easily causing internal trauma, fracturing/shattering bones and bruising organs).
I would love to be able to use my M1874 Trapdoor rifle with it's .45-70 510 Grain slug on a half rack of beef or pork. Bring the pain
Given the purpose of a shotgun that seem... unnecessary
Actually it's rather ideal for a shotgun. Maximizes barrel length (less spread for less collateral damage) and minimizes weapon size. Problem is, it's right-handed only, like most bullpup designs, most are somewhat inferior designs. This one honestly could use some work.
My lemon pistol was one I picked up for 100 bucks at a gunshow: Llama IX-B. Incompatible with standard 1911 mags, bit the <CENSORED> out of my hand, grip felt like holding on to a brick, sights sucked, trigger sucked, didn't like to lock back on empty, liked to stovepipe or jam the round into the upper wall of the chamber and lock solid, and when it wasn't busy failing it was busy plinking me with hot casings directly in the center of my forehead.
Should have spent 50 bucks more and obtained a Bulgarian makarov. would've been a hundred times better off. But, it was what I could afford and sometimes it even went bang, so....
Nowadays I am in the camp of Buy-Once-Cry-Once, and when I have the thought "Gee, that would be perfect...but its a little out of my price range..." I adjust my <CENSORED> price range.
Melissia wrote:So if I were hypothetically to get the compact P250 (it depends on which feels most comfortable in my hand) I should probably get it in .357 SIG?
Whatever you do, don't get a P250. They're incredibly unreliable. There's a reason that AIM Surplus is selling them for $360 ea. and they've been in stock for months now...nobody wants them.
1911's are cool and everything but honestly I'd stay away from them too. Most 1911s don't work well with hollowpoints and it's very difficult to get them working properly. They were designed at a time when parts were hand-fitted and don't really lend themselves to modern machining practices.
Now that the XDM has come out, you could probably get an XD for around $350, used Glocks for around $350, and other polymer pistols in the same ballpark. Their triggers aren't nearly as nice as a good 1911 trigger but you can buy with confidence that you're going to get something that runs out of the box and will eat most modern ammunition. Other good options that won't break the bank are Ruger's P85-series guns (built like bricks, very reliable, but very heavy), CZs (P01s are very heavy but very very nice), and newer M&Ps (don't buy the old ones, they have glass strikers). M&Ps in particular are nice because you can tailor the backstrap to what you want, though 4th gen Glocks will give you the same features more or less.
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assultmarine wrote:whilst wer'e on the subject of fire-arms, how did you all learn to shoot?
Israel Defense Forces sharpshooter course was a hell of a practice run, but mom started me shooting when I was 6.
"Sig Sauer filed an appeal with the ATF about the Sig P250 being eliminated early from the testing. However, the ATF has now rejected their appeal, and only S&W and Glock are going to the final evaluation stage.
In rejecting the Sig Sauer appeal, the ATF noted the following from their agent test results:
11 of the 20 test shooters experienced stoppages with Sig Sauer's handguns--in some cases, as many as 10 stoppages."
Hypothetically let's say that JW777 was on the range with some guys who hypothetically know about a hypothetical government agency that's hypothetically testing some handguns to look at hypothetically purchasing a bunch of 'em. Hypothetically let's say that the P250 came up in a hypothetical conversation...and hypothetically the conversation wandered to the hypothetical incident report sheets and hypothetically how the hypothetical testers ran out of forms to document the hypothetical malfunctions being experienced by the P250.
...hypothetically.
So now that we had that neat academic exercise...wasn't that fun?...my advice is to run, not walk, away from the idea of a P250. Drive a railroad spike through the part of your brain that is infatuated with that thing if you must, but for God's sake don't go anywhere near it. Sig has tried to sell that gun all over Europe...and noooobody's buying.
Clue. JW777 regularly shoots with gov't acronym types -nuggz
Just sayin'...
There are so many fantastic guns out there at that price point: why risk it?
with the entire post implying that exact intention. I especially like how you seperately pick out every few words and make a statement about it. I merely put in a suggestion, seeing as I found the thread interesting. Poor as my opinion may be, that doesn't exactly mean mines must be taken into consideration.
