Kairos wrote:It is a super cool game, and the box is filled with plastic goodness.

It was a steal at $99.00. I honestly don't think they could have sold it for less.

If you haven't actually physically looked at the contents in the box, I would highly recommend you do so before forming an opinion.

I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Though you would argue back that the mold used to create the ships costs alot.

Then I would tell you, also nowhere justifying 50x price rise.

Then you wouldnt be convinced.

Then I would tell you this....

"Its not my problem GW cant make their profits back, they chose to make it Limited Edition"

ooo..... mew

LunaHound wrote:
I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Though you would argue back that the mold used to create the ships costs alot.

Then I would tell you, also nowhere justifying 50x price rise.

Then you wouldnt be convinced.

Then I would tell you this....

"Its not my problem GW cant make their profits back, they chose to make it Limited Edition"

ooo..... mew

I think GW flubbed this up big time, but I don't think you're being realistic either. From my background I'd estimate it costs GW about $25-$30 to produce a single unit of this game. They probably see a $30 gain for each unit sold to retailers and $60 sold direct... and both lose a cut to overhead. GW spends $200M to make $20M... so at the end of the day they see $10 or $5 profit per game.

Like I said GW flubbed it, but it was dead on arrival. Criticizing the contents gets you no where when it has quality just not a fan base.

GW really should have thought again on DF. Either the game had to be superb (which means way more playtesting than they usually do, or evidently did this time), or the minis had to be usable elsewhere, for it to have even a chance of selling in the same kind of numbers as Space Hulk. I know the production numbers were a bit lower, but not enough.

I think that those people saying don't judge the content of the Dreadfleet set miss the point entirely. Dreadfleet was a terrible business decision on the part of GW if it's true that they are now recalling stock and destroying it which is directly related to the contents of the box. The contents were not appealing to a large enough audience, thus the contents (rules and minis) are the problem.

If Dreadfleet were the opening salvo in a Dystopian Wars-like line that was going to see navies growing and building, then this boxed set makes sense long term even if there is short-term downside of modest sales. However, what's clear is that GW wasted a fortune on this set given sculptors, marketing, game designers and lackeys' time building a one-shot board game with paint-able miniatures.

What Dreadfleet is is a collector's item in a boutique hobby. This is doubling-down on your niche-y-ness, and not a terribly good decision long-term.

One has to wonder who's "at the helm" on these business decisions as of late.

FWIW I love the sculpts, love the game, but there's no way I'm buying into this "dread-end."

NecronLord3 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lormax wrote:The 'exchange' can be done at any GW...doesn't have to be a bunker

That's great if you live near a GW store. Most of the US doesn't.

The nearest GW to me (and I'm in a mid-sized metro area) is at least 2.5 hours. I've lived places (again, metros) where the closest GW was over 5 hours away.

Actually most of the U.S. does and so what if you don't?

Uhhh, you got some sort of evidence to back this up?

NecronLord3 wrote:The nearest one to me is an hour out, the bunker nearly two. I visit those stores about once or twice a year, and I don't own a business. As a business owner being able to exchange unwanted product is worth a 2-3 hour trip a few times a year. Or if you happen to be in a dead zone that is unreasonably far from a GW then it would be smart to establish a relationship with a business maybe half way or so. Be creative and adapt its part of running a good business. Few other companies in the world offer and exchange option like this, take advantage.

What? Why did you direct this to biccat? His point is that most of the population of the US isn't a GW official store. I have no idea if this is true, but your anecdotes are... not exactly persuasive. But what in the world is this stuff about establishing a business halfway about? He should find some retailer 75 minutes away and do... what? Play telephone in case GW drops a depth charge like Dreadfleet?

aka_mythos wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Though you would argue back that the mold used to create the ships costs alot.

Then I would tell you, also nowhere justifying 50x price rise.

Then you wouldnt be convinced.

Then I would tell you this....

"Its not my problem GW cant make their profits back, they chose to make it Limited Edition"

ooo..... mew

I think GW flubbed this up big time, but I don't think you're being realistic either. From my background I'd estimate it costs GW about $25-$30 to produce a single unit of this game. They probably see a $30 gain for each unit sold to retailers and $60 sold direct... and both lose a cut to overhead. GW spends $200M to make $20M... so at the end of the day they see $10 or $5 profit per game.

Like I said GW flubbed it, but it was dead on arrival. Criticizing the contents gets you no where when it has quality just not a fan base.

Does your $25-$30 factor in the mold cost?

I dont know what your background is but ( sorry if I sound rude, or about to sound rude )

Unless the price you mentioned includes the mold, then you are dead wrong on the material costs for:

plastic for the sprues, book , the mat, packaging, wrappings lol

LunaHound wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Though you would argue back that the mold used to create the ships costs alot.

Then I would tell you, also nowhere justifying 50x price rise.

Then you wouldnt be convinced.

Then I would tell you this....

"Its not my problem GW cant make their profits back, they chose to make it Limited Edition"

ooo..... mew

I think GW flubbed this up big time, but I don't think you're being realistic either. From my background I'd estimate it costs GW about $25-$30 to produce a single unit of this game. They probably see a $30 gain for each unit sold to retailers and $60 sold direct... and both lose a cut to overhead. GW spends $200M to make $20M... so at the end of the day they see $10 or $5 profit per game.

Like I said GW flubbed it, but it was dead on arrival. Criticizing the contents gets you no where when it has quality just not a fan base.

Does your $25-$30 factor in the mold cost?

I dont know what your background is but ( sorry if I sound rude, or about to sound rude )

Unless the price you mentioned includes the mold, then you are dead wrong on the material costs for:

plastic for the sprues, book , the mat, packaging, wrappings lol

FROM TOP OF MY HEAD:

Plastic injection tool: approx £25k
Modification and corrections: £6k
Design team : (6 moths to develop, play testing, models design) approx 15 team members (concept, drawing, 3d modelling, sculpting, game designer, writer) + manager = 15*£35k per annum /2 = £262.5k
Box - colour print + other stuff = £3.50 (with shipping)
Manufacturing team members (injection mould oper+ tool changer + assembly + packaging) = 3 + team leader = £6 per/h/man/25 units/h= £1 per unit
Materials :200g of class 1 plastic = £0.35

Total cost of the box: £4.85
Total cost of design: £293.5k

Payback : price £70 - £4.85 = £64.15
Playback after : 4575 sold units…

Also, i do not believe that GW would recall DF just to scrap off, rather they would recall due to stop manufacturing (end of project) and relocating the stock to different markets....

EDIT: forgot to add electricity (£0.08 Kwh.... industrial prices) and shipping costs (logistic operatios about £25k/y), but they are trifled and wont affect much this clalculations

god.ra wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Though you would argue back that the mold used to create the ships costs alot.

Then I would tell you, also nowhere justifying 50x price rise.

Then you wouldnt be convinced.

Then I would tell you this....

"Its not my problem GW cant make their profits back, they chose to make it Limited Edition"

ooo..... mew

I think GW flubbed this up big time, but I don't think you're being realistic either. From my background I'd estimate it costs GW about $25-$30 to produce a single unit of this game. They probably see a $30 gain for each unit sold to retailers and $60 sold direct... and both lose a cut to overhead. GW spends $200M to make $20M... so at the end of the day they see $10 or $5 profit per game.

Like I said GW flubbed it, but it was dead on arrival. Criticizing the contents gets you no where when it has quality just not a fan base.

Does your $25-$30 factor in the mold cost?

I dont know what your background is but ( sorry if I sound rude, or about to sound rude )

Unless the price you mentioned includes the mold, then you are dead wrong on the material costs for:

plastic for the sprues, book , the mat, packaging, wrappings lol

FROM TOP OF MY HEAD:

Plastic injection tool: approx £25k
Modification and corrections: £6k
Design team : (6 moths to develop, play testing, models design) approx 15 team members (concept, drawing, 3d modelling, sculpting, game designer, writer) + manager = 15*£35k per annum /2 = £262.5k
Box - colour print + other stuff = £3.50 (with shipping)
Manufacturing team members (injection mould oper+ tool changer + assembly + packaging) = 3 + team leader = £6 per/h/man/25 units/h= £1 per unit
Materials :200g of class 1 plastic = £0.35

Total cost of the box: £4.85
Total cost of design: £293.5k

Payback : price £70 - £4.85 = £64.15
Playback after : 4575 sold units…

Also, i do not believe that GW would recall DF just to scrap off, rather they would recall due to stop manufacturing (end of project) and relocating the stock to different markets....

EDIT: forgot to add electricity (£0.08 Kwh.... industrial prices) and shipping costs (logistic operatios about £25k/y), but they are trifled and wont affect much this clalculations

Yep, thanks for agreeing its no where near $30. and for the analysis for the pay back amount's units.

As i mentioned earlier aka+mythos, any additional expense not recovered by enough units sold ( thanks for the number of 4575) is GW's own issue of making it limited time product.

Buzzsaw wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

biccat wrote:

Lormax wrote:The 'exchange' can be done at any GW...doesn't have to be a bunker

That's great if you live near a GW store. Most of the US doesn't.

The nearest GW to me (and I'm in a mid-sized metro area) is at least 2.5 hours. I've lived places (again, metros) where the closest GW was over 5 hours away.

Actually most of the U.S. does and so what if you don't?

Uhhh, you got some sort of evidence to back this up?

NecronLord3 wrote:The nearest one to me is an hour out, the bunker nearly two. I visit those stores about once or twice a year, and I don't own a business. As a business owner being able to exchange unwanted product is worth a 2-3 hour trip a few times a year. Or if you happen to be in a dead zone that is unreasonably far from a GW then it would be smart to establish a relationship with a business maybe half way or so. Be creative and adapt its part of running a good business. Few other companies in the world offer and exchange option like this, take advantage.

What? Why did you direct this to biccat? His point is that most of the population of the US isn't a GW official store. I have no idea if this is true, but your anecdotes are... not exactly persuasive. But what in the world is this stuff about establishing a business halfway about? He should find some retailer 75 minutes away and do... what? Play telephone in case GW drops a depth charge like Dreadfleet?

My point is that there are plenty of GW stores located throughout the USA, probably in a worst case scenario there may be a game store out there that the nearest location is 6-8 hours away, that is still close if you make a day out of it and return your unwanted stock once or twice year, or better yet take the suggestion someone else made and return it to GW, they seem to be okay with that. My point about other stores is developing a relationship with a store that is perhaps 4 hours away from a location when you are 8 hours away and you could drop your unwanted stock off with them and they could do a single trip with their unwanted merchandise plus yours and save you a trip.

Uhhh, you got some sort of evidence to back this up?

Google Earth it!

LunaHound wrote:

Kairos wrote:It is a super cool game, and the box is filled with plastic goodness.

It was a steal at $99.00. I honestly don't think they could have sold it for less.

If you haven't actually physically looked at the contents in the box, I would highly recommend you do so before forming an opinion.

I have, and I say the content itself is worth about $1 in plastic, and 60 cents in packaging material.

Packaging material costs more than you think. The plastic also costs more than you think, as you have to make extremely expensive molds for the large sprues the set comes on. Dreadfleet has 6 large sprues full of stuff, and a double sized sprue of terrain... consider the average 40k tank, warhammer monster, or other such kit that has so much material. Now consider the cost of two or four of it, to make the same volume as the 4 large sprues worth. Now consider that dreadfleet also has accessories, cards, books, etc.

Not to say that dreadfleet does not have problems, but if you think you get a bad volume of material with dreadfleet, I suggest you reconsider.

Basically, the main reasons I stayed away from Dreadfleet were.

1) The general lack of good will I've had towards GW since about May last year. Notably less than I used and, I was pretty jaded before then.

2) Even taking into account the lack of good will, the price point really did make me go. 'Heck no.' 60 to 50 pounds would have made me even consider it.

3) Despite 1 and 2, I did get mildly interested after a few of the well respected club members recommended it. However, I then saw it in the flesh and was incredibly let down. I was expecting the 2 larger ships to be the size of the Battleships in Gothic, with the smaller ones the side of cruisers. Instead, they seemed utterly tiny. And due to the small number that I would look forward to painting, that was really just the last nail in the coffin.

So, no money for GW from me....

I would have seriously considered it if the terrain was more generic and not skulls. I play historicals naval games and the seaboard, islands and wind gauge, etc would have been cool, but the aesthetic was a game stopper for me.

In and around 2nd ed 40k, GW went through its red phase. I'm wondering if I'll be able to make it through their 'skull' phase.

NecronLord3 wrote:Actually most of the U.S. does and so what if you don't?

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? GW stores are a long fething ways away from most places.

NecronLord3 wrote:The nearest one to me is an hour out, the bunker nearly two. I visit those stores about once or twice a year, and I don't own a business.

I have no idea why you would ever want to visit a GW store or a bunker. Everything GW offers I can get through my LGS for a better price or at least a shorter drive. Plus, I like the guys at my LGS, and I want to give them my business. Even if I wanted something only GW could offer, I'd rather mail order it than drive an hour or two to the GW, find out they don't have the product, have them order it, and then have to drive back in a month.

As for the rest, I'm not qualified to comment on it, so I'll leave that for more learned minds.

NecronLord3 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:The nearest one to me is an hour out, the bunker nearly two. I visit those stores about once or twice a year, and I don't own a business. As a business owner being able to exchange unwanted product is worth a 2-3 hour trip a few times a year. Or if you happen to be in a dead zone that is unreasonably far from a GW then it would be smart to establish a relationship with a business maybe half way or so. Be creative and adapt its part of running a good business. Few other companies in the world offer and exchange option like this, take advantage.

Buzzsaw wrote:What? Why did you direct this to biccat? His point is that most of the population of the US isn't a GW official store. I have no idea if this is true, but your anecdotes are... not exactly persuasive. But what in the world is this stuff about establishing a business halfway about? He should find some retailer 75 minutes away and do... what? Play telephone in case GW drops a depth charge like Dreadfleet?

My point is that there are plenty of GW stores located throughout the USA, probably in a worst case scenario there may be a game store out there that the nearest location is 6-8 hours away, that is still close if you make a day out of it and return your unwanted stock once or twice year, or better yet take the suggestion someone else made and return it to GW, they seem to be okay with that. My point about other stores is developing a relationship with a store that is perhaps 4 hours away from a location when you are 8 hours away and you could drop your unwanted stock off with them and they could do a single trip with their unwanted merchandise plus yours and save you a trip.

I gotta be honest, this may be the oddest and dumbest advice I have ever heard. I mean, are you even considering just how big a distance a 4 hour distance is? That's New York city to Boston Mass, and then you have to come back again. By the by, they didn't say you could "return" thing, which would imply a refund, but "exchange", which implies a trade-in. So A brings his overstock to B, who brings both A and B's overstock to GW... and then gets goods for both A and B. Which means that A has to come back and get the stuff from B, so a second trip. So that guy 4 hours away requires 2 8 hour trips... to do an exchange. And this seems like a good idea to you?

I suppose you could object and say "hey, because I have a relation with B, I can trade my overstock to him, so it's only one trip!" Which would be great... unless, of course, you're talking about things like Dreadfleet (which we coincidentally seem to be doing in this thread...), which B won't take off your hands because he can't sell it either.

Seriously; you think it's a great idea to pay an employee to spend a full day driving (plus gas, of course) to make no money at all driving stock from your store to someone else's store? To say nothing of what you would be giving in consideration to the guy helping you out, and just how pleased your employees would be at the prospect of a full day of driving...

But hey, who can complain about such "convenience"?

NecronLord3 wrote:

Uhhh, you got some sort of evidence to back this up?

Google Earth it!

So, that would be a "no" on the evidence request then, eh?

Dreadfleet Sucked so Much, It was Funny To see the store managers try to sell it

Has anyone in this thread actually played the game? It is a really good game.

It is a stand alone board game, like Space Hulk. It is not an entry level box set for a full miniature game.

It is definetely worth having in your game collection for when you feel like playing a good boardgame with excellent components.

So...IIRC, didn't someone also say that they recalled the megaboxes as part of the recall? my local GW just received another one as part of their shipment today. In conjunction with the fact that they still have a copy of DF on their shelves (with no orders to return it), doesn't this suggest that, rather than being destroyed, they are being redistributed to the stores that actually sold a bunch of them? (my local shop has sold, I believe, almost 20)

Not to derail the thread or anything...

Buzzsaw wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:The nearest one to me is an hour out, the bunker nearly two. I visit those stores about once or twice a year, and I don't own a business. As a business owner being able to exchange unwanted product is worth a 2-3 hour trip a few times a year. Or if you happen to be in a dead zone that is unreasonably far from a GW then it would be smart to establish a relationship with a business maybe half way or so. Be creative and adapt its part of running a good business. Few other companies in the world offer and exchange option like this, take advantage.

Buzzsaw wrote:What? Why did you direct this to biccat? His point is that most of the population of the US isn't a GW official store. I have no idea if this is true, but your anecdotes are... not exactly persuasive. But what in the world is this stuff about establishing a business halfway about? He should find some retailer 75 minutes away and do... what? Play telephone in case GW drops a depth charge like Dreadfleet?

My point is that there are plenty of GW stores located throughout the USA, probably in a worst case scenario there may be a game store out there that the nearest location is 6-8 hours away, that is still close if you make a day out of it and return your unwanted stock once or twice year, or better yet take the suggestion someone else made and return it to GW, they seem to be okay with that. My point about other stores is developing a relationship with a store that is perhaps 4 hours away from a location when you are 8 hours away and you could drop your unwanted stock off with them and they could do a single trip with their unwanted merchandise plus yours and save you a trip.

I gotta be honest, this may be the oddest and dumbest advice I have ever heard. I mean, are you even considering just how big a distance a 4 hour distance is? That's New York city to Boston Mass, and then you have to come back again. By the by, they didn't say you could "return" thing, which would imply a refund, but "exchange", which implies a trade-in. So A brings his overstock to B, who brings both A and B's overstock to GW... and then gets goods for both A and B. Which means that A has to come back and get the stuff from B, so a second trip. So that guy 4 hours away requires 2 8 hour trips... to do an exchange. And this seems like a good idea to you?

I suppose you could object and say "hey, because I have a relation with B, I can trade my overstock to him, so it's only one trip!" Which would be great... unless, of course, you're talking about things like Dreadfleet (which we coincidentally seem to be doing in this thread...), which B won't take off your hands because he can't sell it either.

Seriously; you think it's a great idea to pay an employee to spend a full day driving (plus gas, of course) to make no money at all driving stock from your store to someone else's store? To say nothing of what you would be giving in consideration to the guy helping you out, and just how pleased your employees would be at the prospect of a full day of driving...

But hey, who can complain about such "convenience"?

NecronLord3 wrote:

Uhhh, you got some sort of evidence to back this up?

Google Earth it!

So, that would be a "no" on the evidence request then, eh?

And? You would rather sit on stock that isn't selling? 4 hours is an unreasonable drive for you? I do this for various reasons probably 3-4 times a year. There are benifits to traveling to a GW store other than to make purchases particularly at the bunker where you can play in tournaments or to pick up FW products with free shipping.

And yes it is just ridiculous to think similar businesses in different parts of a region would want to cooperate how foolish, you've convinced me to return my business degree and my 13 years of retail experience with fortune 500 companies.

I love boardgames. I've probably spent more overall on GW games than on other boardgames, but I have a *lot* of boardgames in the house -- probably a hundred or so. But I wait till either they win awards (Speil des Jahres), or they're available on a big discount (a lot of FLGS have annual or other stock clearances), or I've at least played them and decided I like them. Really, £70 was always going to be a hard sell to me for a boardgame, but for the right game, that's good enough to be a bona fide classic AND has high quality components... my copy of Super Dungeon Explore is on order. But that's kind of where my potential DF money went.

Space Hulk OTOH... I'd been waiting 20 years for that.

I have played DF and I think it is a reasonably entertaining game. As to the aesthetics, GW has a disturbing fixation with skulls that I do not share.

As to the cost of manufacturing...I do not know the penny/pence breakdown of costs for each stage of manufacturing, but I do know that the cost of molds has dropped dramatically in the past few years due to composite molds being used that are cheaper and just as durable as steel molds. Also, for short runs, steel molds are not used either way. Aluminum molds are used and they are even cheaper than composite molds and good for about 100,000 to 500,000 casts. Steel and composite are good for millions of casts typically.

As to necronlords degrees and fortune 500 experience regarding driving product across the country, I do not know many fortune 500 companies that are paying employees to "load the car" and drive across the country so another store gets to continue the journey. Small business that might make the "barely making it 500" list typically do not have the resources either way. Once you consider gas costs, your/employees time/costs, wear and tear on vehicle costs, yada yada costs...it really does not add up. Your degree in business should have told you that already. And, yes, small businesses do work with each other, even in competing markets, but your scenario is a fools endeavor. There are many more viable options.

As to the many other things that can be done at a GW store/bunker, except for the FW free shipping bit, I can get the rest at my FLGS that is less than an hour away.

And closest GW from Pittsburgh is Cincinnati, 4 hours away. I guess I should be glad I do not live in the north west USA. Much worse drive that includes driving over mountains.

LunaHound wrote:Yep, thanks for agreeing its no where near $30. and for the analysis for the pay back amount's units.

Do you ever go to FFG's forum and complain how they can sell their "coffin box" games for upwards of $100 when they cost $1 to produce?

Kairos wrote:Has anyone in this thread actually played the game? It is a really good game.

It is a stand alone board game, like Space Hulk. It is not an entry level box set for a full miniature game.

It is definetely worth having in your game collection for when you feel like playing a good boardgame with excellent components.

I played it twice and was unimpressed, First time I got fire bears all up in my grill then promptly sank, second time I just drove in circles and attacked the other boat with giant sea monsters.. all in all it was "meh"

Its also no where near space hulk, as the models arent that great and cant be used in the standard game, not to mention that space hulk saved you nearly $200 in models.

spyguyyoda wrote:So...IIRC, didn't someone also say that they recalled the megaboxes as part of the recall? my local GW just received another one as part of their shipment today. In conjunction with the fact that they still have a copy of DF on their shelves (with no orders to return it), doesn't this suggest that, rather than being destroyed, they are being redistributed to the stores that actually sold a bunch of them? (my local shop has sold, I believe, almost 20)

Not to derail the thread or anything...

The unsold megaforce boxes got recalled and repackaged into standard boxes, like tactical squads, DE Raiders, etc.

Dreadfleet could have been literally the greatest naval game ever released, but I little interest in boats, not much interest in Fantasy, and I while the sculpts are nice, I like proper armies as opposed to cherry-picking one boat from each "good" faction and one from each of the badguys. It just drummed up a game that had nothing for me, and I'm not alone on that.

Brother SRM wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote:So...IIRC, didn't someone also say that they recalled the megaboxes as part of the recall? my local GW just received another one as part of their shipment today. In conjunction with the fact that they still have a copy of DF on their shelves (with no orders to return it), doesn't this suggest that, rather than being destroyed, they are being redistributed to the stores that actually sold a bunch of them? (my local shop has sold, I believe, almost 20)

Not to derail the thread or anything...

The unsold megaforce boxes got recalled and repackaged into standard boxes, like tactical squads, DE Raiders, etc.

Dreadfleet could have been literally the greatest naval game ever released, but I little interest in boats, not much interest in Fantasy, and I while the sculpts are nice, I like proper armies as opposed to cherry-picking one boat from each "good" faction and one from each of the badguys. It just drummed up a game that had nothing for me, and I'm not alone on that.

If they repackaged the unsold megaboxes, why did they just ship one to my local shop? You guys are saying things and I'm not seeing any evidence for any of this speculation other than "there was one at the shop and now it's gone." Like I said, it is entirely possible that the recall is an attempt at moving items to a location where they might actually sell.

It's entirely possible that someone at your local shop ordered one to be picked up there, which is why your shop had one shipped to it.

Traditionally, when the megaforces are "no longer available" they are shipped back and then repackaged.

Kanluwen wrote:It's entirely possible that someone at your local shop ordered one to be picked up there, which is why your shop had one shipped to it.

It was a restock.

Traditionally, when the megaforces are "no longer available" they are shipped back and then repackaged.

Well that would explain why everyone seems so insistent in this instance, but like I said, my local GW just got restocked. Although the manager did say they were surprised they got one.

lord_blackfang wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Yep, thanks for agreeing its no where near $30. and for the analysis for the pay back amount's units.

Do you ever go to FFG's forum and complain how they can sell their "coffin box" games for upwards of $100 when they cost $1 to produce?

Guess who pays for the loss of Dreadfleet flop? customers. yay price adjustments!

Therefor, for what ever bad decission they made regarding dreadfleet, especially the lack of payback,
I have no sympathy for them.

I live in Lawrence, KS. Closest GW store to me? Denver, CO. That's 570 miles, and give or take 9 hours of driving. No, we don't all live near a GW store. For those of you in Europe, London to Edinburgh is 400 miles. So for me to get to the CLOSEST GW store to my house, I have to drive to Edinburgh and nearly halfway back before getting to one. Proof enough?

Getting on the I am posting my opinion on this and letting you know I did not buy the game. Had no plans to buy it I play Fantasy but had no need for this game. On the other hand this was a limited edition game like Space Hulk and is more expensive as a result. The reason is it costs any where between $25-30k to make a plastic injection mold. the Space Hulk ones were destroyed or are in the GW museum never to be used again. Same with the dread fleet molds the cost of the pieces is part of the deal with the high price of the game. getting off the now

Shepherd23 wrote:
As to necronlords degrees and fortune 500 experience regarding driving product across the country, I do not know many fortune 500 companies that are paying employees to "load the car" and drive across the country so another store gets to continue the journey. Small business that might make the "barely making it 500" list typically do not have the resources either way. Once you consider gas costs, your/employees time/costs, wear and tear on vehicle costs, yada yada costs...it really does not add up. Your degree in business should have told you that already. And, yes, small businesses do work with each other, even in competing markets, but your scenario is a fools endeavor. There are many more viable options.

The company I work for has me doing this ALL the time and I do get reimbursed for mileage. I would gladly pay an employee $40 to return hundreds of dollars of unusable merchandise, its a no brainer.

Shepherd23 wrote:As to the many other things that can be done at a GW store/bunker, except for the FW free shipping bit, I can get the rest at my FLGS that is less than an hour away.

But you can't exchange your GW merchandise at an FLGS, an that is the point of the conversation.

Nagashek wrote:I live in Lawrence, KS. Closest GW store to me? Denver, CO. That's 570 miles, and give or take 9 hours of driving. No, we don't all live near a GW store. For those of you in Europe, London to Edinburgh is 400 miles. So for me to get to the CLOSEST GW store to my house, I have to drive to Edinburgh and nearly halfway back before getting to one. Proof enough?

Then mail it, really simple. Kansas is not most of the United States.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Then mail it, really simple. Kansas is not most of the United States.

How about: Oregon, Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont and Maine, Alaska and Hawaii? Cause according to Google Maps, there's not a GW store in any of them either. (You can't check outside of a 100 mile radius of a zipcode on GW's official store finder anymore for some reason -but when you could I remember being astounded at how few GWs existed, and how densely packed they are into a few tiny areas.)

Schmapdi wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Then mail it, really simple. Kansas is not most of the United States.

How about: Oregon, Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont and Maine, Alaska and Hawaii? Cause according to Google Maps, there's not a GW store in any of them either. (You can't check outside of a 100 mile radius of a zipcode on GW's official store finder anymore for some reason -but when you could I remember being astounded at how few GWs existed, and how densely packed they are into a few tiny areas.)

Then MAIL IT seriously. As a business expense a 4-6 hour drive really is realitively close and if it is a burden on yourself or your business mail it. Point being GW has an amazing exchange policy considering if you take advantage and make a trip a few times a year and bundle all your unsold merchandise and return it for new. Just because a GW store isn't in your state, doesn't mean ithere isn't one near by. Its realitive. Close to,you may mean a half hour. From the perspective of someone running a business, 4-6 hours may be close. A store could easily plan around this trip. Take 40k as an example. Right now you can count on at least 3 major releases a year. So using 2011 as an example, you could have done a decent order for Dark Eldar, the same for GK, then cut back on Necrons and exchange unsold DE and GK for new Necron releases. Instead of ending the year with unwanted, DE, GK and Necrons. Now apply this to a store that sells 40k, Fantasy, and LotR. The left overs from all three lines could easily cover an entire wave 2 Necron or Tyranid wave, possibly both.

Kairos wrote:Has anyone in this thread actually played the game? It is a really good game.

It is a stand alone board game, like Space Hulk. It is not an entry level box set for a full miniature game.

It is definetely worth having in your game collection for when you feel like playing a good boardgame with excellent components.

No its not a really good game. Its mediocre, too random and boooooring.

No I haven't played it, yes I've seen it played in front of me exactly once (and that was also the opinions of most of the guys playing it), no one wanted to repeat the experience again.

sonofruss wrote:Getting on the I am posting my opinion on this and letting you know I did not buy the game. Had no plans to buy it I play Fantasy but had no need for this game. On the other hand this was a limited edition game like Space Hulk and is more expensive as a result. The reason is it costs any where between $25-30k to make a plastic injection mold. the Space Hulk ones were destroyed or are in the GW museum never to be used again. Same with the dread fleet molds the cost of the pieces is part of the deal with the high price of the game. getting off the now

There's not really a soapbox for you to stand on there. "I didn't buy the game because I wasn't interested in it, and plastics cost a lot of money to make" isn't exactly a controversial statement or one warranting that kind of presentation. One can assume the Dreadfleet molds will be destroyed.

Also, please work on your grammar.

Nagashek wrote:I live in Lawrence, KS. Closest GW store to me? Denver, CO. That's 570 miles, and give or take 9 hours of driving. No, we don't all live near a GW store. For those of you in Europe, London to Edinburgh is 400 miles. So for me to get to the CLOSEST GW store to my house, I have to drive to Edinburgh and nearly halfway back before getting to one. Proof enough?

You can't have a big country without things being far apart.

Yes, but GW does not even have one in every major metropolitan city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

You could at least hit the top 20 or 50. I just don't know if the classic GW buisness model really works in America, FLGS can sell such a variety of product that I think they draw better. I've never really understood GW's policies on stores. I think they would do better if they just became a generic hobby/comic book store that sold everything including competitors products, but really pushed theirs more.

If they owned and ran a great chain of retail stores they could make profit even when they sell the competitions products and could really focus on pushing their own. Their stores might actually be of financial benefit to the company instead of a drain.

Andrew1975 wrote:Yes, but GW does not even have one in every major metropolitan city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

You could at least hit the top 20 or 50. I just don't know if the classic GW buisness model really works in America, FLGS can sell such a variety of product that I think they draw better. I've never really understood GW's policies on stores. I think they would do better if they just became a generic hobby/comic book store that sold everything including competitors products, but really pushed theirs more.

If they owned and ran a great chain of retail stores they could make profit even when they sell the competitions products and could really focus on pushing their own. Their stores might actually be of financial benefit to the company instead of a drain.

No, they don't because they take several factors into consideration, like not under-cutting themselves for FLGS by setting up shop where a FLGS has an established business. They also take income into account, knowing this can be a higher end of the income bracket hobby they setup major stores in higher income areas. Also they setup in the Major of the Major metropolitan areas like LA, Chicago, New York(Maryland), Texas, etc...

NecronLord3 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Yes, but GW does not even have one in every major metropolitan city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

You could at least hit the top 20 or 50. I just don't know if the classic GW buisness model really works in America, FLGS can sell such a variety of product that I think they draw better. I've never really understood GW's policies on stores. I think they would do better if they just became a generic hobby/comic book store that sold everything including competitors products, but really pushed theirs more.

If they owned and ran a great chain of retail stores they could make profit even when they sell the competitions products and could really focus on pushing their own. Their stores might actually be of financial benefit to the company instead of a drain.

No, they don't because they take several factors into consideration, like not under-cutting themselves for FLGS by setting up shop where a FLGS has an established business. They also take income into account, knowing this can be a higher end of the income bracket hobby they setup major stores in higher income areas. Also they setup in the Major of the Major metropolitan areas like LA, Chicago, New York(Maryland), Texas, etc...

Right, that leaves whole swath of the country without GW stores. Yet I have to pay the premium for them to run their stores.

Andrew1975 wrote:
Right, that leaves whole swath of the country without GW stores. Yet I have to pay the premium for them to run their stores.

You don't have to do it, you choose to.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:
Right, that leaves whole swath of the country without GW stores. Yet I have to pay the premium for them to run their stores.

You don't have to do it, you choose to.

I don't choose to, if I want a GW product I have to pay to supplement their failing retail operations. However I have chosen not to for quite some time. I can't rememebr the last time I bought a new GW model as I buy used on Ebay. There are plenty of people that want out of "The Hobby", it's easy enough to cherry pick.

Why don't you go on one of those easy 8 hour drives of yours already. Make sure to fly the big white flag.

Andrew: Order it online.

Or better yet, you can't because you live in Australia, not legally, so you're forced to do that drive or pay at least a 40% premium over the rest of the world's prices ($30 in the US to $44 minimum in Australia).

PhantomViper wrote:

Kairos wrote:Has anyone in this thread actually played the game? It is a really good game.

It is a stand alone board game, like Space Hulk. It is not an entry level box set for a full miniature game.

It is definetely worth having in your game collection for when you feel like playing a good boardgame with excellent components.

No its not a really good game. Its mediocre, too random and boooooring.

No I haven't played it, yes I've seen it played in front of me exactly once (and that was also the opinions of most of the guys playing it), no one wanted to repeat the experience again.

So your assessment on the game is based not upon 1st hand experience but upon the reaction of a third party? Forgive me if i feel that you are not the best person to judge Dreadfleet, although you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

As far as im aware Dreadfleet was something that Phil Kelly came up with. It was his own idea and something he wanted to do and GW took a gamble and released it. It is a quality product material wise and the game itself whilst admittedly lengthy is a lot of fun with a very strong narrative running through it and some interesting concepts. Were your friends playing with all the ships? That will take a very long time. The campaign starts off with smaller games in mind and uses only one or two of the models to ease you in gently. I've played the first three scenarios and found them an excellent way to spend a couple of hours. I do think that the price point was set a little high ( i personally picked the game up a bit cheaper from a discount retailer) and with some more intelligent marketing from GW it could have been a success rather than being doomed to sink without a trace.

Overall i think its a fun game that deserved a bit better than it got. I feel sorry for Phil as it is unlikely that GW will publish any of his other furture endeavours now.

Shaozun wrote:Andrew: Order it online.

Or better yet, you can't because you live in Australia, not legally,

So GW now have an embargo stopping us buying from the US?

DiabolicAl wrote:
So your assessment on the game is based not upon 1st hand experience but upon the reaction of a third party? Forgive me if i feel that you are not the best person to judge Dreadfleet, although you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

As far as im aware Dreadfleet was something that Phil Kelly came up with. It was his own idea and something he wanted to do and GW took a gamble and released it. It is a quality product material wise and the game itself whilst admittedly lengthy is a lot of fun with a very strong narrative running through it and some interesting concepts. Were your friends playing with all the ships? That will take a very long time. The campaign starts off with smaller games in mind and uses only one or two of the models to ease you in gently. I've played the first three scenarios and found them an excellent way to spend a couple of hours. I do think that the price point was set a little high ( i personally picked the game up a bit cheaper from a discount retailer) and with some more intelligent marketing from GW it could have been a success rather than being doomed to sink without a trace.

Overall i think its a fun game that deserved a bit better than it got. I feel sorry for Phil as it is unlikely that GW will publish any of his other furture endeavours now.

No, my assessment of the game comes from watching it being played in front of me and seeing all the interactions and mechanics of the game in action. I fail to see how rolling the dice myself would have changed my opinion of the game.

There were 4 people playing the game, I'm not sure if they were using all the ships or just a subset, but again, that doesn't change anything. If a game is supposed to be a fairly tactical affair then spending 2-3 hours on it should be fine, because you are engaged in the action and the planning that are required to win the game.

If all you are doing is rolling dice because your input doesn't really contributes to who wins or looses the game, then spending 2-3 hours doing it turns it into an exercise in boring.

NecronLord3 wrote:No, they don't because they take several factors into consideration, like not under-cutting themselves for FLGS by setting up shop where a FLGS has an established business.

Lol, you must be new to the hobby. GW used to purposely set up stores next to successful FLGS. You mentioned metro areas like Chicago... GW's second store in the entire state of Illinois was set up in the late 90's a mile down the road on the same street in the same suburb as the best stocked (and presumably selling) store in the Chicagoland area. They had dozens of suburbs plus the whole city which had ZERO stores to play in to choose from (not even counting the entirety of the rest of the freakin' state) but they decided to set up within walking distance of the best store in a major metro area. I also saw GW open up the one of two company stores in all of Georgia (at that time) 2 miles from another well stocked FLGS. They yet again had the length and breadth of another major metro area (as well as the rest of the STATE!) that frankly didn't have many FLGS outside of the Marietta/NE Atlanta burbs and decided to set up shop within 5 minutes of an FLGS. Please don't attribute some imaginary well being on the part of GW towards FLGS when there is clear evidence of their previous predatory store structure.

warboss wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No, they don't because they take several factors into consideration, like not under-cutting themselves for FLGS by setting up shop where a FLGS has an established business.

Lol, you must be new to the hobby. GW used to purposely set up stores next to successful FLGS. You mentioned metro areas like Chicago... GW's second store in the entire state of Illinois was set up in the late 90's a mile down the road on the same street in the same suburb as the best stocked (and presumably selling) store in the Chicagoland area. They had dozens of suburbs plus the whole city which had ZERO stores to play in to choose from (not even counting the entirety of the rest of the freakin' state) but they decided to set up within walking distance of the best store in a major metro area. I also saw GW open up the one of two company stores in all of Georgia (at that time) 2 miles from another well stocked FLGS. They yet again had the length and breadth of another major metro area (as well as the rest of the STATE!) that frankly didn't have many FLGS outside of the Marietta/NE Atlanta burbs and decided to set up shop within 5 minutes of an FLGS. Please don't attribute some imaginary well being on the part of GW towards FLGS when there is clear evidence of their previous predatory store structure.

Actually I'm not new to the hobby. And your logic seems kind of backwards to me. By setting up a store near a successful FLGS, GW would hardly be using a predatory store structure as the FLGS can sell with discounts and incentive programs that GW doesn't offer. It would be far more likely that the GW store would be boosting the sales of the FLGS while only providing a playing area for the customers of the FLGS to play in. The only benefit in the past was same day releases, and in store exclusives.

Actually, a FLGS that I go to did report having that problem. They sold GW items, until a GW store opened nearby. Then they started getting items late, missing news on upcoming items, and events stopped happening at the store.

They've only begun selling GW items again relatively recently. And the 40k/Fantasy crowd is tiny in comparison to the number of Warmachine/Hordes and FoW players.

Actually, a FLGS that I go to did report having that problem. They sold GW items, until a GW store opened nearby.

This reminds me of when I had a chat with the guy in our FLGS, he had a shop in St. Austell Cornwall and wanted to open up another store in Falmouth, so he rang up GW and asked them if
they had any plans for the SW of England, Cornwall in particular, their response was they won't touch Cornwall with a barge pole, so feel free to set up a new shop, 3 months later GW opens
up a store in Truro, his Falmouth store takes less and less money, as the kids wanted to go an offical GW store not a indy in end, about 15 months after GW came he had to close his store.

Ravenblade666 wrote:

Actually, a FLGS that I go to did report having that problem. They sold GW items, until a GW store opened nearby.

This reminds me of when I had a chat with the guy in our FLGS, he had a shop in St. Austell Cornwall and wanted to open up another store in Falmouth, so he rang up GW and asked them if
they had any plans for the SW of England, Cornwall in particular, their response was they won't touch Cornwall with a barge pole, so feel free to set up a new shop, 3 months later GW opens
up a store in Truro, his Falmouth store takes less and less money, as the kids wanted to go an offical GW store not a indy in end, about 15 months after GW came he had to close his store.

to be fair GW only opened up in truro as the owners of the then flgs truro micro wanted out due to family issues ..and they were basicly a GW anyway with 90% of there product being GW , and it was very last minute { a time frame of about 2 weeks } and from what i remember of the store in st austell it wasnt great mainly kept TSR and old style RPGS and didnt have a great range of GW, and also around that time the citadel in penzance closed down and that place only sold GW so there was a real gap in the market .

I haven't heard GW doing the whole "open next to sucessful FLGS" for more than a decade. Remember hearing they abandoned the practice in the US. Though GW was notorious for doing it in the UK and think they still do it. Different countries, different practices. My experience with GW stores was more often hearing they are shutting down than opening.

Andrew1975 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:
Right, that leaves whole swath of the country without GW stores. Yet I have to pay the premium for them to run their stores.

You don't have to do it, you choose to.

I don't choose to, if I want a GW product I have to pay to supplement their failing retail operations. However I have chosen not to for quite some time. I can't rememebr the last time I bought a new GW model as I buy used on Ebay. There are plenty of people that want out of "The Hobby", it's easy enough to cherry pick.

Why don't you go on one of those easy 8 hour drives of yours already. Make sure to fly the big white flag.

I think his point was that you don't have to buy GW products, and playing their game is a choice. Your original point would have been better phrased as "Yet if I want to play GW games I have to pay the premium for them to run their stores".

It's been well documented in the past, and certainly I know from personal experience from working in an Indy. Going back donkies years, the Cheltenham GW store (I actually believe one of the first ones), the moment it opened the local store started getting orders for 2 or more weeks late on new items, to the point where the owner eventually took the hint and stopped selling GW stuff.

Having said that, recently there have been a couple of stores opening in the south west of the UK (specifically Bristol, 'Cut and Thrust' wargaming and 'Total Wargamer' in Evesham, near Tewkesbury). Although I can't be sure whether GW is doing business different now, or whether it's because of the plethora of new rival games that have come out, and customers want the option of an alternative game to play (or even just using non GW models).
Certainly having played in them both, I can understand the general consensus in the US that the FLGS (next to a club) is the ideal venue of choice if one is in your area.

Pacific wrote:It's been well documented in the past, and certainly I know from personal experience from working in an Indy. Going back donkies years, the Cheltenham GW store (I actually believe one of the first ones), the moment it opened the local store started getting orders for 2 or more weeks late on new items, to the point where the owner eventually took the hint and stopped selling GW stuff.

Same problem happened with the store in Illinois I first mentioned that had a GW open down the same street in the same suburb. The official company store started *selling* new releases on Fridays where as the FLGS only got them *shipped* from GW on fridays (and lost out on the new release weekend to the newly opened GW store). Their rep kept denying this until they faxed them a reciept for a new release blister that they had me go buy with the details/date on it. They also started coincidentally having trouble stocking some popular lines in numbers that never gave them an issue before. In the end it didn't matter as the GW store was frequented regularly ONLY by people under the age of 12 while pretty much the entire established 40k group (around 16-20 of us at the time) just stayed put. The only time I went there was a couple of times when I was out of a blister at the FLGS and stubborn enough to NEED to finish a unit THAT week. That GW store closed down within 5 years as when players there got near the end of puberty and didn't need to mom drop them off at the mall to play, they just started shopping down the street.

As for it not happening more recently, something similar happened here in Georgia just recently with the store that last weekend had their Grand Opening. SergeantHorse here on dakka owns an FLGS in Marietta, GA (and I believe there is another indy FLGS in the next suburb over) where as almost half the clock face of Atlanta doesn't have an FLGS within 10 miles of the city limits. Where does GW open its store? In the same suburb as his store. He hasn't reported any issues with stock (but frankly I haven't asked nor would I expect him to publicly gripe on an online forum.. as Mikhalia said, its more effective to whine to the rep) so maybe they've improved on that aspect. He's taken it in stride and said the manager is a very nice guy but frankly, if it were me, I'd be pissed. Opening up next to existing stores to capitalize/cannibalize their playerbase? Still happening as of 2012.

I used to work at a GW, and we had the opposite problem: We were told to release stuff on the Saturday, despite us receiving it on a thursday. The CLGS would get their shipment, and start selling it ASAP, which meant any shiny new sales for me were lost. I kept bringin it up over and over again to the higher ups, and yet nothing got done. I guess since the CLGS was a 17+ year old account, they didn;t want to do anything, or that Retail didnt have any pull to affect Trade Sales and vice versa. In the end, my city lost the GW I ran (rent was stupendously high) and a few other LGS's and the same guy is running his same CLGS, surly as all get out, complainign about GW over and over again for coming close to 2 decades now!

what's "CLGS"? I haven't heard that one

I assume it's "Crummy Local Game Shop", as Matt Varnish's post implies that the shop is not so good.

I think GW's alleged predatory practices may have had more effect when they were a general tabletop games shop.

It's hard for small businesses to keep going in the UK because of the way our retail leasing system operates, so you can't blame GW for everything.

Of course with the preponderance of FLGS in most regions (other than the UK which I think are saturated at this point), if GW desire to open a shop and expand their presence in new regions then naturally they will appear as predatory.

GW will inevitably be attracted to cheaper locations which are where FLGs will probably be as well.

I can imagine (especially for children/parents) that a clean professionally run GW store being allot more attractive than the (probably) slightly stale Indy store downtown.

I dont think GW are (anymore at least?) predatory rather their model that has made them successful (High/Main street presence) can be at loggerheads with existing businesses. I don’t see GW wanting to damage existing client FLGs, they are early sales afterall (Cash is King), since it can be complimentary to their business. GW for the youngsters/families/Diehards higher end market, FLG for discount/Vets/crusties .

I would suggest Mikaila's store is a good example where IIRC he says there are 2 GWs relatively near but he outsells them. Clearly the 2 GWs are profitable enough to keep going and Showcase isn't being squeezed either. Seems win-win when the balance is right.

Nagashek wrote:I live in Lawrence, KS. Closest GW store to me? Denver, CO. That's 570 miles, and give or take 9 hours of driving. No, we don't all live near a GW store. For those of you in Europe, London to Edinburgh is 400 miles. So for me to get to the CLOSEST GW store to my house, I have to drive to Edinburgh and nearly halfway back before getting to one. Proof enough?

The closest GW store for me is in a DIFFERENT COUNTRY. I think I beat you

I thought they had one in Warsaw now?

Alkasyn wrote:

Nagashek wrote:I live in Lawrence, KS. Closest GW store to me? Denver, CO. That's 570 miles, and give or take 9 hours of driving. No, we don't all live near a GW store. For those of you in Europe, London to Edinburgh is 400 miles. So for me to get to the CLOSEST GW store to my house, I have to drive to Edinburgh and nearly halfway back before getting to one. Proof enough?

The closest GW store for me is in a DIFFERENT COUNTRY. I think I beat you

With Poland now being part of the EU, not really. 25 years ago when you would have had to brave multiple divisions of Russian occupying soldiers to get your plastic toy fix, yes. The distance he's talking about would require you to drive completely through Germany from Warsaw to a GW store in the low countries. Remember, Poland is the size of the state of New Mexico approximately! Distances in that region of the US have more in common with Siberia than Europe, lol.