If the 6th ed starter set will include "cultists", wouldn't this suggest that the codex will have to come out before 6th edition, in order to make cultists usable?
This may have been discussed earlier, just something that occurred to me
I don't think so. They'll probably be included in the starter to give players a general idea of what they'll be like (without revealing their options and special rules, like AoBR), and they'll keep us waiting until the legions book comes out for the rest of their entry. Everything you need to know would be included in the starter box, I guess.
It's probably unreasonable to assume that we'll get anything resembling an Infantry Platoon, right? Probably something more along the lines of a veteran squad, I'd imagine. I don't see any point in taking a ten man squad as an actual troops choice.
Although a platoon would be cool. You could make it separate from the FOC.
I'd expect cultists to be a big mob of dudes with crappy skills and wargear, kind of like conscripts. They're meant to be meat shields, not another avenue for meltaspam or whatever.
Brother SRM wrote:I'd expect cultists to be a big mob of dudes with crappy skills and wargear, kind of like conscripts. They're meant to be meat shields, not another avenue for meltaspam or whatever.
I kind of agree with this. Cultists have traditionally been really cheap models with individually weak offensive and defensive abilities. Even in the 3.5 Codex, the Alpha Legion cultists were pretty underwhelming.
I found those useful if you wanted them as cheap Furious Charge fodder. Melta bombs at +2 per model made them useful with infiltrate for scaring the crap out of parking lots though.
It's also nice and fluffy to use them as a screening unit/meatshield, since your average Chaos Marine doesn't give two gaks about the life of a scumsucking traitorous heretic with a leadpipe and a Nerf gun.
I liked having a huge mob of them and have an agitator with a power fist in the unit. With Mark of Undivided letting them re-roll LD tests they could wittle down some of the scariest things the other guy had while my harder hitting units did thier stuff. 25 of them knocked out a terminator squad one game I played, and in another held up a Black Templars command unit for a good 3 turns before finally getting ran down.
All of this was before the changes to the Alpha Legion backstory - as such, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being more along the lines of intelligent (if duped) infiltrating cell operatives vs. skirt wearing lunatics.
Also, in the 3.5 Codex they existed to be Daemon Bomb/Melta Bomb delivery units.
Lockark wrote:I would expect cultiest units to be like the ones from dawn of war. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
HWEEE KAPTOOORED IT FOIR KAAAOS!
AUGH MY SPLEEEEEN!
Kay, I'd find that suddenly Ork level hilarious if they did them in like the original Dawn of war's cultists, though Dawn of War 2's cultists would do better in tabletop terms.
Still kinda hoping Eliphas is in, or maybe Azariah Kyras (Best Khornite in the GALAXY!)
If you can add a new verse to a common Khorne saying, and make it sound awesome, you deserve a cameo. (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOOD GOOOOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! LET... THE GALAXY... BUUUUUURRRRRRNNNNN! )
Alpharius - Good IG gone bad would be renegade/traitor guardsmen, like the ones Forgeworld sells, Cultists are/should be full on chaos guard, just look at the name: Cultist. They've given themselves fully over to the worship of the chaos gods.
Alpharius wrote:All of this was before the changes to the Alpha Legion backstory - as such, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being more along the lines of intelligent (if duped) infiltrating cell operatives vs. skirt wearing lunatics.
Of course that assumes GW would use the Horus Heresy book background for the Alpha Legion.
Alpharius wrote:All of this was before the changes to the Alpha Legion backstory - as such, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being more along the lines of intelligent (if duped) infiltrating cell operatives vs. skirt wearing lunatics.
Of course that assumes GW would use the Horus Heresy book background for the Alpha Legion.
I know - and given recent history, I have low expectations...
Brother SRM wrote:The DoW/DoW2 cultists would make awesome models, I'd buy a heap of them in a heartbeat.
These guys?
I actaully think the guy on the right looks awesome
And the guy on the left isn't a cultist. He's a heretic. There's a difference.
This is a DoW cultist
I never played any of the DoW games, so never knew their was a difference. But yah. Something like a heretic or the cultists above would be awesome in all honesty. I want guys who have totally given them selves over to chaos, and are bassicly the lesser mortals that the chaos legions took with them into the eye of terror. "Good IG gone bad" would be VERY disappointing to me in all honesty. (That's easy to convert, and Forgeworld already makes conversion kits to do exactly that.) I want to see something new, instead of just cadian's with spikes.
On a point about above.. the Cultist's/Heretics/TRAITOR GUARDSMEN should probably all be different in my opinion. I'm doubtful it will happen (maybe the former two will be compiled and the third seperate) but they represent different levels in my opinion. Mutants could even be another lot.
The Cultist's are unorganised, fanatical zealots that have been picked up from the absolute dregs of hive worlds and beyond. The heretics are former rag tag higher class nobles or fleet commanders or long time serving TG that have long since turned to chaos. Whilst the literal traitor guardsmen are new to the whole chaos thing so still have a lot of their discipline but without too much chaosiness.
I think they'd make a good series of troop choices.. the first choice would be cannon fodder, the second better equipped with better chaos upgrades and the third less chaos upgrades but so much similar to normal guardsmen. Mutants would simply be more like the Guard level equivalent of possessed marines. Would hand Codex chaos anything another four troop choices relevant to the fluff.
Brother SRM wrote:I'd expect cultists to be a big mob of dudes with crappy skills and wargear, kind of like conscripts. They're meant to be meat shields, not another avenue for meltaspam or whatever.
I kind of agree with this. Cultists have traditionally been really cheap models with individually weak offensive and defensive abilities. Even in the 3.5 Codex, the Alpha Legion cultists were pretty underwhelming.
My problem with this notion of Chaos cultist is that it completely ignores the need for the Inquisition. These cults shelter and promote the creation of damonhosts and witches both of which promote daemon if incursion. Cultists have been shown to alot more varied from the meat shields your talking about, blood pact being an example of a well trained well equipped cult.
From that you might have a unit that in its basic configuration is a meatshield but it should be able to have access to varied weapons, it should have a demagogue to lead the cults dark rituals in summoning, and it should be able to improve its combat capability by possessing the type of characters that are at the center of why there are two branches of the inquisition that target chaos. It makes for a much more interesting unit to have 20 cultists surrounding a couple of unbound daemonhost or a coven of withes functioning like the IG's psykers casting in concert.
GW completely ignored the need for the Inquisition when they released the Grey Knight Codex. No... bad HBMC... get back on topic!
Different types of Cultists are a good idea, but then again we're playing with generic and sometimes interchangeable terms here:
1. Renegade. 2. Heretic. 3. Cultist. 4. Traitor.
And so on. None of these titles has one specific meaning, and many units can have multiple applied to them. To say X is only ever X and never anything else isn't correct. It's also one of the reasons why people annoy me when they say "Just play 'Counts As' Guard if you miss your LatD so much" because they're not the same thing.
Plus were the Blood Pact 'cultists' in the traditional sense? Were they instead Traitor Guard?
No it's in there just as an even more bastarised version of the last one.
If they broaden the CSM as much as this thread had said so far I might finally get around to them. As they are Codex: "Marines, but spiky" is not appealing at all.
I think it would be fun if the cultist/heretics had a 'Waaagh!" type ability: i.e, a single-turn bonus declared during the game, such a stubborn, fearless, fleet, inflicting poisoned hits in CC when taking casualties, and so on. You could even vary the effect based on what mark they have.
I honestly wouldn't mind with they had something like a modified version of the O&G Animosity (not sure if the current had it, but I know the previous did and it made them sort of interesting). No as likely to happen of course, but I'd sort of expect the cultists to fight among themselves or even sacrifice members of the squads (like the boss pole or Commissar).
n0t_u wrote:I honestly wouldn't mind with they had something like a modified version of the O&G Animosity (not sure if the current had it, but I know the previous did and it made them sort of interesting). No as likely to happen of course, but I'd sort of expect the cultists to fight among themselves or even sacrifice members of the squads (like the boss pole or Commissar).
Yes because if theres one thing chaos needs, its more chaos dreadnoughts
Not saying its a bad idea per say but randomness is a harsh penalty to a unit. Though I think the LD4+D6 was an interesting idea from FW (you rolled at the beginning of the game per unit to see their LD)
n0t_u wrote:I honestly wouldn't mind with they had something like a modified version of the O&G Animosity (not sure if the current had it, but I know the previous did and it made them sort of interesting). No as likely to happen of course, but I'd sort of expect the cultists to fight among themselves or even sacrifice members of the squads (like the boss pole or Commissar).
Yes because if theres one thing chaos needs, its more chaos dreadnoughts
Not saying its a bad idea per say but randomness is a harsh penalty to a unit. Though I think the LD4+D6 was an interesting idea from FW (you rolled at the beginning of the game per unit to see their LD)
The chaos dreadnought was bad was because it could hit your own units too. Nobody's gonna mind being able to shoot two missles and 4 AC shots when it goes right on a fire frenzy dread.
It was also cheap for its price, I don't mind random when it's cheap enough. If they had animosity and cost about 1-4 points, I could see them still being useful as potential cover save slaves. I'm honestly hoping they have the Astral Claws ability from the Siege of Vraks, where you get a 3+ cover save but they lose 1-3 legionnaires in the process
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW completely ignored the need for the Inquisition when they released the Grey Knight Codex. No... bad HBMC... get back on topic!
Different types of Cultists are a good idea, but then again we're playing with generic and sometimes interchangeable terms here:
1. Renegade.
2. Heretic.
3. Cultist.
4. Traitor.
And so on. None of these titles has one specific meaning, and many units can have multiple applied to them. To say X is only ever X and never anything else isn't correct. It's also one of the reasons why people annoy me when they say "Just play 'Counts As' Guard if you miss your LatD so much" because they're not the same thing.
I'd say the main distinction between Cultists and the rest is the persistence of their worship of Chaos, while for example traitors at some point asserted an alliegence or oath to the Imperium. Heretics are Cultists who actively prostolatize the masses. Renegades would be those guilty by association and covorting with Chaos... But without any necessarily direct allegiance to a larger Chaos power.
Plus were the Blood Pact 'cultists' in the traditional sense? Were they instead Traitor Guard?
They weren't part of any Imperial Guard formation prior to the Sabbat war. They come from a planet that changed hand several times prior to the Imperiums formal claim to the world and when a chaos warlord caim to reclaim these worlds he was able to raise the Khorne worshipping Blood Pact from the barabaric hoards on those planets.
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ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The chaos dreadnought was bad was because it could hit your own units too. Nobody's gonna mind being able to shoot two missles and 4 AC shots when it goes right on a fire frenzy dread.
It was also cheap for its price, I don't mind random when it's cheap enough. If they had animosity and cost about 1-4 points, I could see them still being useful as potential cover save slaves. I'm honestly hoping they have the Astral Claws ability from the Siege of Vraks, where you get a 3+ cover save but they lose 1-3 legionnaires in the process
The chaos dreadnought is one of the most flawed units... 2:6 chance getting a benefit but closer to 1:9 of it being beneficial in a given turn and that's at best since your own proximity can reduce that. So we're paying 15 or so points for something useful less than 1/9th of the time. If you were to try a derive a fair cost of the ability it'd be 1/9th what you'd pay to give a unit fleet, an extra attack, and 1/9th the cost of a duplicate weapon. I'd say ~3pts. At that cost it's low enough to say the negatives should counter balance the small gain enough to negate any cost. Yet we pay as if it's beneficial all the time.
The Chaos dreadnought is the quintessential representation of the codex's flaws. Whether we get possessed or obliterator infected dreadnoughts or something else... GW needs to fix the Chaos dreadnought and give it special rules to make it representative of chaos and not just a flawed version of what's standard for the Loyalists.
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW completely ignored the need for the Inquisition when they released the Grey Knight Codex. No... bad HBMC... get back on topic!
Different types of Cultists are a good idea, but then again we're playing with generic and sometimes interchangeable terms here:
1. Renegade.
2. Heretic.
3. Cultist.
4. Traitor.
And so on. None of these titles has one specific meaning, and many units can have multiple applied to them. To say X is only ever X and never anything else isn't correct. It's also one of the reasons why people annoy me when they say "Just play 'Counts As' Guard if you miss your LatD so much" because they're not the same thing.
I'd say the main distinction between Cultists and the rest is the persistence of their worship of Chaos, while for example traitors at some point asserted an allegiance or oath to the Imperium. Heretics are Cultists who actively prostolatize the masses. Renegades would be those guilty by association and covorting with Chaos... But without any necessarily direct allegiance to a larger Chaos power.
Just a minor point:
Heretics, cultists, and traitors tend to blur the lines. Most cultists do tend towards doing the same stuff that the heretics do, and the traitors tend towards being the militant arm of the forces of the Archenemy.
Renegades are basically their own thing.
Plus were the Blood Pact 'cultists' in the traditional sense? Were they instead Traitor Guard?
They weren't part of any Imperial Guard formation prior to the Sabbat war. They come from a planet that changed hand several times prior to the Imperiums formal claim to the world and when a chaos warlord came to reclaim these worlds he was able to raise the Khorne worshipping Blood Pact from the barabaric hoards on those planets.
Minor correction.
The Blood Pact's original Archon, Nadzybar, was a "creature" with the Imperium knowing little of his origins or background. After his death, the Blood Pact continued on and was adopted by the forces of the Archenemy. The majority of Blood Pact soldiery are just that: traitor Guardsmen, swearing a blood pact(hence the name) to the Archon Urlock Gaur by cutting themselves upon his armor. We get a little smidge more detailing on it from the novel "Blood Pact" and it was touched upon prior in "Honor Guard" with the Blood Pact marksman Saul.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The chaos dreadnought was bad was because it could hit your own units too. Nobody's gonna mind being able to shoot two missles and 4 AC shots when it goes right on a fire frenzy dread.
It was also cheap for its price, I don't mind random when it's cheap enough. If they had animosity and cost about 1-4 points, I could see them still being useful as potential cover save slaves. I'm honestly hoping they have the Astral Claws ability from the Siege of Vraks, where you get a 3+ cover save but they lose 1-3 legionnaires in the process
The chaos dreadnought is one of the most flawed units... 2:6 chance getting a benefit but closer to 1:9 of it being beneficial in a given turn and that's at best since your own proximity can reduce that. So we're paying 15 or so points for something useful less than 1/9th of the time. If you were to try a derive a fair cost of the ability it'd be 1/9th what you'd pay to give a unit fleet, an extra attack, and 1/9th the cost of a duplicate weapon. I'd say ~3pts. At that cost it's low enough to say the negatives should counter balance the small gain enough to negate any cost. Yet we pay as if it's beneficial all the time.
The Chaos dreadnought is the quintessential representation of the codex's flaws. Whether we get possessed or obliterator infected dreadnoughts or something else... GW needs to fix the Chaos dreadnought and give it special rules to make it representative of chaos and not just a flawed version of what's standard for the Loyalists.
I know I'm in the minority, but I've always liked the craziness of the Dreadnought. It might be a "flawed version of what's standard for the Loyalists"...but it's something characterful.
That said, you can be pretty certain the characterfulness will be dead.
Not only would I NOT be "pretty certain" the "characterfulness" will be dead, but I think the majority of chaos players will be glad to see it gone or reduced. A dreadnought 6" from the enemy that decides to double-fire storm bolters is not "fun" or "characterful", it's un-fluffy and slowed.
I think what it boils down to on the dreadnought is that is we shouldn't pay for something that at best is a breakeven rule, but who's flaw greatly narrows how you have to use it. That flaw is arguably great enough that if anything we should pay fewer points than a version without.
If they want to retain the "randomness" of that rule, they could always bake it into the Mark of Khorne.
On a D6 roll of 2-5, the Dread does whatever you want it to with no special bits.
On a 1 it goes Berserk! and starts firing/beating up anything within sight.
On a 6, it gains Furious Charge and some other nifty rule letting it fire/CC more?
Kanluwen wrote:
Just a minor point:
Heretics, cultists, and traitors tend to blur the lines. Most cultists do tend towards doing the same stuff that the heretics do, and the traitors tend towards being the militant arm of the forces of the Archenemy.
I understand there are strong similarities, I was just attributing where I'd draw the lines if I were making the distinction.
Minor correction.
The Blood Pact's original Archon, Nadzybar, was a "creature" with the Imperium knowing little of his origins or background. After his death, the Blood Pact continued on and was adopted by the forces of the Archenemy. The majority of Blood Pact soldiery are just that: traitor Guardsmen, swearing a blood pact(hence the name) to the Archon Urlock Gaur by cutting themselves upon his armor. We get a little smidge more detailing on it from the novel "Blood Pact" and it was touched upon prior in "Honor Guard" with the Blood Pact marksman Saul.
I was under the impression that the Blood Pact existed prior to the recruitment of traitors. By my distinction I'd call then a cult that expanded their power and role through traitors.
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Kanluwen wrote:If they want to retain the "randomness" of that rule, they could always bake it into the Mark of Khorne.
On a D6 roll of 2-5, the Dread does whatever you want it to with no special bits.
On a 1 it goes Berserk! and starts firing/beating up anything within sight.
On a 6, it gains Furious Charge and some other nifty rule letting it fire/CC more?
If they want to retain randomness it should be a case of varying degrees of benefit rather than being sometimes hurtful.
Where things get a bit sketchy, Mythos, is the history of the Blood Pact.
We know that their first Archon was not human....but we don't know whether or not he had a Blood Pact before the current incarnation. The Sabbat Worlds Crusade book doesn't go too hefty into the details.
There's nothing wrong with it sometimes being hurtful (look at Ork weaponry), but Kan is right that there needs to be a beneficial one as well as a bad one.
If 1 is the 'bad one' and 2-5 are the 'do what you want' ones, then 6 needs to be the 'good' one. That said, if the Dread simple fire frenzied at the nearest enemy unit within range and LOS, and only fired at your own units if there were no enemy it could hit, then that would improve things...
I agree on the argument about the dreadnought but heres the thing. You can't take away the crazed rule because it's the only thing that seperates it from the loyalist dread. Plus it was characterful for the chaos dread. In 3.5 it was 1 blood frenzy and 6 trigger happy. Not only did they swap them around they made trigger happy even more unreliable in that it shoots the nearest target friend or foe when last time it only shot up your guys if it couldn't see the enemy. They need to do something about tgat because so far i'm the only one in the county that takes a chaos dread.
GentlemanGuy wrote:I agree on the argument about the dreadnought but heres the thing. You can't take away the crazed rule because it's the only thing that seperates it from the loyalist dread. Plus it was characterful for the chaos dread. In 3.5 it was 1 blood frenzy and 6 trigger happy. Not only did they swap them around they made trigger happy even more unreliable in that it shoots the nearest target friend or foe when last time it only shot up your guys if it couldn't see the enemy. They need to do something about tgat because so far i'm the only one in the county that takes a chaos dread.
Also about cultists i wanna see them again :-)
Actually, the FAQ changed that bit. They now shoot the closest visible target.
odorofdeath wrote:All I ask is for psychic Tzeentch dreadnoughts.
And Ahriman to not suck.
And for Thousand Sons to not suck.
Sigh.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS x 100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also.....Psyker Dreadnoughts, Obliterator Dreadnoughts, Bezerker Dreadnoughts, Sonic Dreadnoughts and Possesed Dreadnoughts as mentioned...
Also Cultists, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and other cool stuff.... Keeping my fingers crossed
Bloody hell. You don't want much do ya? While we're at it can we have Primarch Deamon princes and useable rules for Orbital strikes from Blackstone Fortresses.
If I had wished for Deep Striking Land Raiders and Psychic Dreadnoughts that can fly or 2 x Str8 Twin Linked Auto-Cannons on a dreadnought platform would I also be asking for too much.....lol
Don't forget covered in:
Khorne: A mountain of blood and guts
Slaanesh: A mountain of genitals
Nurgle: A mountain of slime and guts
Tzeentch: A mountain of eyes and blue fire
GentlemanGuy wrote:I agree on the argument about the dreadnought but heres the thing. You can't take away the crazed rule because it's the only thing that seperates it from the loyalist dread. Plus it was characterful for the chaos dread. In 3.5 it was 1 blood frenzy and 6 trigger happy. Not only did they swap them around they made trigger happy even more unreliable in that it shoots the nearest target friend or foe when last time it only shot up your guys if it couldn't see the enemy. They need to do something about tgat because so far i'm the only one in the county that takes a chaos dread.
Also about cultists i wanna see them again :-)
Actually, the FAQ changed that bit. They now shoot the closest visible target.
They always did. The FAQ just finally wrote what was in the rules since 5th ed started, and reminded you that LOS for walkers is along the guns. Not 180 (that was 4th) and not 360 (never)
odorofdeath wrote:All I ask is for psychic Tzeentch dreadnoughts.
And Ahriman to not suck.
And for Thousand Sons to not suck.
Sigh.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS x 100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also.....Psyker Dreadnoughts, Obliterator Dreadnoughts, Bezerker Dreadnoughts, Sonic Dreadnoughts and Possesed Dreadnoughts as mentioned...
Also Cultists, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and other cool stuff.... Keeping my fingers crossed
I proposed the the Possessed and Obliterator dreadnought some time ago ... but that was because I think having god dedicated dreadnoughts is repetitive and unimaginative and adequately covered just by making available the appropriate weapon options, as opposed to complete and separate unit entries. Undivided dreadnought flavors helps more than individual Chaos armies. That its a far more characterful representation of God dedicated units to have god dedicated daemon engines. I think its counter-intuitive for something that supposed to be used as a punishment would be at the center of veneration to the chaos gods.
This is largely a semantic argument... its less an argument of "if" but "how." A dreadnought being able to "X" and thus be regarded as a bezerker is fine, but obviously having 6 distinct dreadnought entries is too much.
For Thousand Sons... I always thought Rubric Dreadnoughts made more sense the sorcerer dreadnoughts but maybe that's just me.
ph34r wrote:If the 6e rumors are true, then Thousand Sons are already on the way to greatness.
What rumors are these?
Not the recently debunked ones, right?
Is he talking about Pancake Edition rules or the chaos dex rules? That may clear up what hes trying to say
Yes, in pancake edition thousand sons become mega OP for having built in invulnerables in a "cover is weak" edition, AP3 bolters in again a "cover is weak" edition, and who can rapid fire bolters out to 18" with the new relentless.
EDIT: Well not "mega OP", but at least they become good
ph34r wrote:If the 6e rumors are true, then Thousand Sons are already on the way to greatness.
What rumors are these?
Not the recently debunked ones, right?
Is he talking about Pancake Edition rules or the chaos dex rules? That may clear up what hes trying to say
Yes, in pancake edition thousand sons become mega OP for having built in invulnerables in a "cover is weak" edition, AP3 bolters in again a "cover is weak" edition, and who can rapid fire bolters out to 18" with the new relentless.
EDIT: Well not "mega OP", but at least they become good
And AP3 also negated FNP, so it was even better.
Though in all honesty, I think thousand sons players would just love to play with that after being the worst option in the codex. (Even after Slaanesh must buy sonic weapons at an inflated prices!)
For Thousand Sons... I always thought Rubric Dreadnoughts made more sense the sorcerer dreadnoughts but maybe that's just me.
I thought Rubric refers to the "All Is Dust" Marines turned in their suits, not the sorcerers that led them
And since Chaos Marines use their Dreadnoughts as a form of punishment... is a psycho psyker in a dreadnought going to be at all controllable? As opposed to a more run of the mill thousand son marine who is once again a soul confined to an enclosed and sealed piece of armor. A dreadnought with the ability to ignore some damage and to fire as if it didn't move while shooting similarly ensorcelled AP3 rounds from bolter weapons has a certain appeal and are easier to incorporate. While a thousand son sorcerer dreadnought insists upon a unique unit entry.
Wargear options is quite appropriate, but copying land speeders from Loyalists is simply dull. Even if GW wanted to give Chaos a unit that functions like a land speeder I'd beg for something like the blight drone instead.
yeah id just like more choice so you can have more varied army lists and cheaper dreadclaws lol £88 is way to much even if they are really cool looking
aka_mythos wrote:Wargear options is quite appropriate, but copying land speeders from Loyalists is simply dull. Even if GW wanted to give Chaos a unit that functions like a land speeder I'd beg for something like the blight drone instead.
I think i might just be the blight drone using the same rules if that happened....though they probably only be used with a death guard or heavily marked nurgle army,
aka_mythos wrote:Wargear options is quite appropriate, but copying land speeders from Loyalists is simply dull. Even if GW wanted to give Chaos a unit that functions like a land speeder I'd beg for something like the blight drone instead.
I think i might just be the blight drone using the same rules if that happened....though they probably only be used with a death guard or heavily marked nurgle army,
Actually undivided use them from time to time, they are really just daemonic machines after all. They were even in the undivided army of Nemroth in Space Marine.
One is based on wants and desires... the other is based on substantiated or insubstantiated hearsay recollecting models, designs, elements, ideas, units, description, illustrations, art, or cocaine driven characters that may appear in a particular companies book.
odorofdeath wrote:Chaos Biker army, led by Doomrider, anyone?
There's not enough cocaine in the world to make an army of them.
Also, I like the idea of obliterator dreadnoughts, although I think they'd turn out OP and everyone would spam them, unless they had some drawback... Since they're usually sort of nomadic wanderers, it would make sense if they left the game after a certain portion of the force is destroyed... I doubt obliterators would stay with their customers simply out of loyalty.
Possessed Dreads could work, although they would have to be assault MONSTERS for there to be any reason to use them. Like, 5 attacks +D6 extra attacks or something.
odorofdeath wrote:Honestly, I don't see much difference between the two.
Honestly, there's a big difference.
aka_mythos wrote:One is based on wants and desires... the other is based on substantiated or insubstantiated hearsay recollecting models, designs, elements, ideas, units, description, illustrations, art, or cocaine driven characters that may appear in a particular companies book.
And there it is!
So... moving forward, anything from the "Wishlisting" category might be considered 'spam'.
Please try to restrict conversation to actual rumors and the discussion thereof - thanks!
Here's a new tidbit on possible spring release for Chaos.
StraightSilver wrote:Sorry guys, didn't mean to sound like a tease.
Essentially I was trying to get confirmation from someone regarding an earlier email that I had been sent.
I had read the following email as confirmation of the rumour initially, but then on re-reading it realised that that may not have been the case.
I read "you can post that if you want " as confirmation, but in hindsight it may not necessarily be confirmation but somebody just yanking my chain.
So essentially I have Chaos coming some time between May and June, which I have been told I can post (doesn't mean it's right though...), but my earlier prediction for Dark Angels was apparently off.
Doesn't mean they're not coming, just that I have no idea when.
It's doesn't appear to be as easy to get any info out of anybody at the moment, and anything I am hearing is either a bit vague or maybe an attempt to see just how much of what I am told I put up on the internet.
The stuff I have put up is stuff I have been told I can post, anything else has to remain secret for now I'm afraid.
Personally I would rather the other, original characters get sorted out before we get any new ones. Ahriman needs an overhaul to represent his sheer awesomeness a lot more and Abaddon, Kharn and Lucius all need tweaks.
Converting Dark Apostle is a bitch. Right now the best combination I think is a plastic Chaos Lord with a SM Chaplin Crozius Arcanum. Replace the eagle with a Chaos Star from spikey bits, preferrably the little Chaos insignia that comes on top of the battle standard for WHFB Chaos Warriors. Then get Grey Knights bits for scripture on the armor.
A plastic Dark Apostle is wicked easy. Dark Angels robed body, Chaos Marine skull helmet, Dark Angels power mace bit with a Chaos star head, and that's all you need to do. It's insanely easy to get a convincing Dark Apostle.
Brother SRM wrote:A plastic Dark Apostle is wicked easy. Dark Angels robed body, Chaos Marine skull helmet, Dark Angels power mace bit with a Chaos star head, and that's all you need to do. It's insanely easy to get a convincing Dark Apostle.
Yeah, totally. I see no reason for GW to release a dark apostle model. There's so many freaking bits you can use from fantasy chaos it's not even funny.
Glad this thread is still alive. I wish we'd hear some updated dates. Is it july then? I should be in basic training, lol...
Brother SRM wrote:A plastic Dark Apostle is wicked easy. Dark Angels robed body, Chaos Marine skull helmet, Dark Angels power mace bit with a Chaos star head, and that's all you need to do. It's insanely easy to get a convincing Dark Apostle.
Yeah, totally. I see no reason for GW to release a dark apostle model. There's so many freaking bits you can use from fantasy chaos it's not even funny.
Glad this thread is still alive. I wish we'd hear some updated dates. Is it july then? I should be in basic training, lol...
I don't even know, man, I don't even know. Over on bols I believe they're saying any time from now through the end of April is actually plausible, as a before-6th-hits kind of deal.
So many rumors, at least we know Chaos is for 6ed, its going to hit around the time of 6th, them and dark angels, whether itll be leigions, renegades, or something else complety different, i say sit down, wait, and pray to the dark gods it isnt udder gak, or it's way overpowered comapered to GK and everyone will complain that they are playing a chaos army, im.
Cyvash wrote:So many rumors, at least we know Chaos is for 6ed, its going to hit around the time of 6th, them and dark angels, whether itll be leigions, renegades, or something else complety different, i say sit down, wait, and pray to the dark gods it isnt udder gak, or it's way overpowered comapered to GK and everyone will complain that they are playing a chaos army, im.
If it's not overpowered like GK I will be disappoint, since every new codex lately has been gearing up to be that level, 'Cron's included.
Maybe that's just the way things are going. The Arms race is increasing, with the only armies suffering being the ones who haven't been updated in a long time.
Nothing's overpowered if everything is overpowered is what I'm getting at.
I think Rending instead of AP3 and a 5++ along with Slow And Purposeful is enough for their price to drop into a more reasonable range. Trade always AP 3 for Sometimes rending awesomeness.
Psychic powers also need a points rework ...
Defilers improved in any way to make them more survivable ...
Cultists +1
Dedicating vehicles +1
And more options for vehicles ... us being heretical and not having to follow the rules of the Imperium.
ph34r wrote:Last time I checked, IG, BA, SW, SM, DE, BT, Orks, and Eldar are all quite on par or better than Necrons.
I think you overestimate how much stronger the new books are.
lol your joking right? The newcrons are awesome so long as you make good use of their tricks instead of trying to play them in a more traditional manner....though I have found that folks tend to feel they have been robbed when their loss is more due to Necron "magic" than the actual army. When you play Necrons more like a TCG deck they are crazy annoying.
ph34r wrote:Last time I checked, IG, BA, SW, SM, DE, BT, Orks, and Eldar are all quite on par or better than Necrons.
I think you overestimate how much stronger the new books are.
lol your joking right? The newcrons are awesome so long as you make good use of their tricks instead of trying to play them in a more traditional manner....though I have found that folks tend to feel they have been robbed when their loss is more due to Necron "magic" than the actual army. When you play Necrons more like a TCG deck they are crazy annoying.
True that. Tremor-spam definitely stops any foot-slogging or CC-oriented list in its tracks from sheer paranoia that important things will die, and when you combine that with Necron's already-shooty tendencies, they become great. Against Tau and DE, it gets a bit more difficult, but Necron's have a high amount of anti-tank in almost every FoC, and if it comes down to CC, the WW C'Tan shard (And Orikan Powered Up, if you're running him) will definitely put the beatdown on many a thing.
But this is getting off topic, Tremor-thread is in the appropriate other section. Chaos is being chaos, and is going to be pure brute force awesomeness, with a bit of Special Rule Sorcery mixed in for everyone (Probably double for you Tzeentchites.)
ph34r wrote:Last time I checked, IG, BA, SW, SM, DE, BT, Orks, and Eldar are all quite on par or better than Necrons.
I think you overestimate how much stronger the new books are.
lol your joking right? The newcrons are awesome so long as you make good use of their tricks instead of trying to play them in a more traditional manner....though I have found that folks tend to feel they have been robbed when their loss is more due to Necron "magic" than the actual army. When you play Necrons more like a TCG deck they are crazy annoying.
ph34r wrote:In all honesty I think you are probably not very good at the game if you think that the new necrons blow shooty BT, Orks, or footdar out of the water.
Flaming: Because that makes you better than everyone else.
Let's try to stay on topic here. Chaos.
Anything new anyone has to add?
ph34r wrote:In all honesty I think you are probably not very good at the game if you think that the new necrons blow shooty BT, Orks, or footdar out of the water.
Flaming: Because that makes you better than everyone else.
Let's try to stay on topic here. Chaos.
Anything new anyone has to add?
Not flaming. The knowledge that many of the older codexes are still very competitive (if limited to a few builds) is not well known, meaning that many newer or more casual players are only exposed to the "the old books suck!" internet-mainstream opinion. This is exacerbated by the fact that the older armies are also often less frequently played, and/or played in builds that are not the few competitive archetypes for them. In my experience I have seen the power of the old codexes generally only championed by veteran and/or tournament players.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:You listed SM, BT, Orks, And Eldar as above Newcrons
You trolling?
In all honesty I think you are probably not very good at the game if you think that the new necrons blow shooty BT, Orks, or footdar out of the water.
I think you're not very good at the game if you think all those armies are so much better. Necrons are placing well in tournements, and numerous people like Reecius and JY2 have shown that Necrons can take on competitive builds.
Sasori wrote:I think you're not very good at the game if you think all those armies are so much better. Necrons are placing well in tournements, and numerous people like Reecius and JY2 have shown that Necrons can take on competitive builds.
I disagree based on first hand knowledge and that of recent tournament results. If you have more data that suggests necrons truly are tearing it up all over the place, I would be interested in seeing that.
Sasori wrote:I think you're not very good at the game if you think all those armies are so much better. Necrons are placing well in tournements, and numerous people like Reecius and JY2 have shown that Necrons can take on competitive builds.
I disagree based on first hand knowledge and that of recent tournament results. If you have more data that suggests necrons truly are tearing it up all over the place, I would be interested in seeing that.
The most recent tournament that comes to mind, is the Broadside bash, where they tied for 3rd.
I remember Mannahin posting that Necrons scored 2nd by someone, in a tourney not that long ago near him. I'll edit all that info in once I find that thread.*
Then, you've got a lot of top tier players like Reecius, Jy2, and Hulksmash that say they are competitive. From my Personnel experience, and what I've seen so far from the internet, is the exact opposite of what you are seeing. I'd be interested in your Data as well.
* here we go
At today's 39-person tournament at Battlegrounds in Plainville, MA, three of the top six, going into the final round, were Necrons. Of course two of those were Alex Fennell and Ben Mohlie, and there's no shock about those two no matter what they brought, so that may not tell us a great deal. I will note that both of them brought Spyders to complement their Scarabs (as well as give some more HtH and psychic defense).
Ben ended up fighting Alex in the last round, and Ben ended up winning. So, top 2 players were Necrons.
So, you have a lot of top players that say they are competitive, and people at competitive events with Necrons winning, or placing high.
Now, I'm by no means saying they are unstoppable juggernauts, but evidence seems to suggest that they are competitive.
Sasori wrote:I think you're not very good at the game if you think all those armies are so much better. Necrons are placing well in tournements, and numerous people like Reecius and JY2 have shown that Necrons can take on competitive builds.
I disagree based on first hand knowledge and that of recent tournament results. If you have more data that suggests necrons truly are tearing it up all over the place, I would be interested in seeing that.
The most recent tournament that comes to mind, is the Broadside bash, where they tied for 3rd.
I remember Mannahin posting that Necrons scored 2nd by someone, in a tourney not that long ago near him. I'll edit all that info in once I find that thread.
Then, you've got a lot of top tier players like Reecius, Jy2, and Hulksmash that say they are competitive. From my Personel experiance, and what I've seen so far from the internet, is the exact opposite of what you are seeing. I'd be interested in your Data as well.
Take it to PM, no one cares how much anecdotal evidence that Necrons are the best or wrost in your area or because 3 people on the internet say they are good. If it isn't about new Chaos rumors, please take it elsewhere, because no one else here cares.
Sasori wrote:I think you're not very good at the game if you think all those armies are so much better. Necrons are placing well in tournements, and numerous people like Reecius and JY2 have shown that Necrons can take on competitive builds.
I disagree based on first hand knowledge and that of recent tournament results. If you have more data that suggests necrons truly are tearing it up all over the place, I would be interested in seeing that.
The most recent tournament that comes to mind, is the Broadside bash, where they tied for 3rd.
I remember Mannahin posting that Necrons scored 2nd by someone, in a tourney not that long ago near him. I'll edit all that info in once I find that thread.
Then, you've got a lot of top tier players like Reecius, Jy2, and Hulksmash that say they are competitive. From my Personel experiance, and what I've seen so far from the internet, is the exact opposite of what you are seeing. I'd be interested in your Data as well.
Take it to PM, no one cares how much anecdotal evidence that Necrons are the best or wrost in your area or because 3 people on the internet say they are good. If it isn't about new Chaos rumors, please take it elsewhere, because no one else here cares.
Fair enough, We'll take it to PMs
You're wrong about people not caring though, because clearly they do, or there wouldn't be a string of posts about it.
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