Monster Rain wrote:
Yet here we are.

Like moths to a flame.

Sometimes, the pain is the only thing that makes me feel alive anymore...

Forget pain. That's end result. Avoiding the mofo that's actively trying to kill you is what makes you feel much alive.

Just need to add in. The 15-20 min wasn't a one shot deal. They nail you with it for 15-20 min let you go to whatever detail you were on (raking leaves was a pain even if there were no leaves which leaves you nice NC sand dirt which gets rake to). Then they haul you back in for another go. The OHDarkThirty shake down is a mind nuts kick. At this point your really screwed because your body craving sleep, your mind craving sleep, your body ready to to go shut down but nnnoooooo ice cold water on a hot body will jolt every fiber of your being back into reality and the "WTH am I doing this again?" hits your mind. Then the "pain" goes into effect. They are allowed to hurt you and at times they can break small bones. I signed the waiver

Also in SERE school you cannot opt out. You sign the waiver, you picked the MOS, you volunteer to certain types of units and you know the effect of opting out in a DA school. You do not quit because in SERE school if you quit then your more likely to give up on life if your in the real deal. Also if your really burned out by "quitting" they stick you in the sweat box. Not enough room to lay out nor stand up. but its peaceful for 4-6 hours.


edit

You are aware 110% before going in on what's going to happen. I've never been slapped around so much in my childhood as to what I got myself into but at times I wanted to curl up in my piss poor of an excuse of blanket suck on my thumb and cry while gently rocking myself back and forth

Plus, you get to eat rabbit eyeballs.

No comment

SERE was fun. Really. Except for the whole SERE part. That sucked. Especially at -50

You can opt out by quitting. The point is that you choose to be there, and it's being done to you by people you've chosen to have do it to you, for the purpose of training and career advancement. It's still torture, as Nance (and other experts on it) eloquently and exhaustively explained some years ago.

Anyway, it's a digression. This kid getting 35 years for "espionage", by comparison to the sentences and punishments for the offenders at Abu Ghraib and Bagram, for example, is farcical.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You can opt out by quitting.

Oh my, no.

A reminder to my fellow service members - certain aspects of SERE training are classified so let's be discrete shall we?

And at least as of 2007 you could quit - you just wouldnt be a pilot/SOCOM/ whatever other career field requires SERE

You could quit, but anyone with any kind of military background would know what that would entail when you got back to the unit. To wit: being the pussy that didn't finish SERE school.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
A reminder to my fellow service members - certain aspects of SERE training are classified so let's be discrete shall we?

And at least as of 2007 you could quit - you just wouldnt be a pilot/SOCOM/ whatever other career field requires SERE

Being miserable in every possible way is temporary. Hearing, "Good guns, sir!" is forever.

Exactly. Which is why, when you're choosing to be tortured by your own guys for your career advancement, it's a very different thing from when a prisoner or detainee is tortured.

It's a stress innoculation really. Give you a weak version of the real thing so you arent defenseless if you really get captured. As a SERE C grad, i can tell you that even at its worst, you were accutely aware that there was only a day or two left of this.

Contrast that with the guys like McCain who spent years being tortured - not even knowing if anyone knew they were alive

The detainee just needs to give up the info. We use to have them swear on the Koran but that was really against the rules.

edit

Though it was mention before that a vast majority of captured insurgents were turn over to the ANA or IA. Afghanistan and Iraq military. Who has a serious high water mark that very few countries will even attempt to try on physical torture.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
It's a stress innoculation really. Give you a weak version of the real thing so you arent defenseless if you really get captured. As a SERE C grad, i can tell you that even at its worst, you were accutely aware that there was only a day or two left of this.

Contrast that with the guys like McCain who spent years being tortured - not even knowing if anyone knew they were alive

The thing about this is that every swinging dick taking up arms against the US in a Jihad knows that waterboarding is the worst possible thing that could happen to them as far as an interrogation technique, and even that isn't all that likely. They would likely have much the same attitude toward the procedure as you did: They aren't going to kill me, all I have to do is ride this out.

The horrors that took place in Vietnam don't really even compare to this; bamboo shoots and bags of rats are on a whole other level.

I suppose I should again insert a disclaimer that I'm generally an "anti-torture" sort of person. I'm speaking in generalities here.

Who was the idiot politician that tried to tell McCain that he didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to torture a few years back?

 d-usa wrote:
Who was the idiot politician that tried to tell McCain that he didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to torture a few years back?

That would be Senator Ridiculous himself, the Honorable Mr. Rick Santorum. What a buffoon.

http://www.salon.com/2011/05/17/santorum_mccain_enhanced_interrogation/

John McCain is a badass who bears the marks of his torture even now, which is even more awe inspiring when you learn that he turned down an early release if it meant he would have to leave his fellow servicemen behind.

What a freaking brain fart Santorum had there...an extreme brain fart

That was it, that was a very solid facepalm.

 Jihadin wrote:
What a freaking brain fart Santorum had there...an extreme brain fart

I actually remembered that.

I think it was that retort that effectively ruined Santorum's candidancy for me... not that he was anywhere close to the top.

 Monster Rain wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
It's a stress innoculation really. Give you a weak version of the real thing so you arent defenseless if you really get captured. As a SERE C grad, i can tell you that even at its worst, you were accutely aware that there was only a day or two left of this.

Contrast that with the guys like McCain who spent years being tortured - not even knowing if anyone knew they were alive

The thing about this is that every swinging dick taking up arms against the US in a Jihad knows that waterboarding is the worst possible thing that could happen to them as far as an interrogation technique, and even that isn't all that likely. They would likely have much the same attitude toward the procedure as you did: They aren't going to kill me, all I have to do is ride this out.

The horrors that took place in Vietnam don't really even compare to this; bamboo shoots and bags of rats are on a whole other level.

I suppose I should again insert a disclaimer that I'm generally an "anti-torture" sort of person. I'm speaking in generalities here.

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture... I had to go to the ED for them to pull out glass shard out from under my finger nails. Holy bejesus that was painful.

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

I don't know anything about waterboarding... but isn't it to give the effect and feeling of drowning? That is a bit of a difference, no?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

I don't know anything about waterboarding... but isn't it to give the effect and feeling of drowning? That is a bit of a difference, no?

In so far as you survive the one. Usually.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

You know who he is starting to remind me of?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

I don't know anything about waterboarding... but isn't it to give the effect and feeling of drowning? That is a bit of a difference, no?

Ding ding ding!

We shouldn't torture people, but I still think water boarding is in the low end of the spectrum. These statements aren't mutually exclusive.

I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident. The thrashing that your body does involuntarily might cause injury, but that's different than bamboo shoots right?

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident. The thrashing that your body does involuntarily might cause injury, but that's different than bamboo shoots right?

I dunno... can you be fatally wounded with bamboo shoots under the fingernails?

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident.

Everyone goes into torture thinking that, but it doesn't work all that well. If it was that easy to overcome they would probably use something else.

 whembly wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
What a freaking brain fart Santorum had there...an extreme brain fart

I actually remembered that.

I think it was that retort that effectively ruined Santorum's candidancy for me... not that he was anywhere close to the top.

For me, it was when he openly stated that he wanted US law to be based on Biblical law. I was so shocked I couldn't even speak. I've never been so horrified by what a politician stated.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Just hearing, "bamboo shoots" sends my tingles into the tips of my fingers and makes me freak out a bit...

Now that's fething torture...

So is drowning people. I would take Monster Brain's claim that he's anti-torture a lot more seriously if he didn't keep on saying things to the effect that drowning someone over and over again isn't so bad.

I don't know anything about waterboarding... but isn't it to give the effect and feeling of drowning? That is a bit of a difference, no?

No. Waterboarding gives the feeling of drowning because it is drowning. It gives finer control over the process of drowning than just holding someone's head in a bucket, with the intent that you don't actually let it get to the stage of causing brain damage and death, but eventually they will screw up and they will kill you.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident.

Everyone goes into torture thinking that, but it doesn't work all that well. If it was that easy to overcome they would probably use something else.

America's use of torture has nothing to do with effectiveness. Torture is worse than useless as a method of obtaining intelligence - it produces a lot of chaff and hinders later attempts to use interrogation techniques that actually work. No, America's use of torture is because the people responsible have bought into this same circular logic ("Of course it works! If it didn't, why would people keep using it?") and because they're sick feths.

I like how you just lumped them as "sick feths". That lends credence to your argument and makes you seem completely impartial.

Point of symantics: drowning requires death to be drowning. Waterboarding can't actually be drowning unless you die. Much like electrocution, the word implies a method of death, not a method of endangerment.

So, simulating the effects of drowning is a good way to describe waterboarding. The same description could also be applied to the act of holding someone's head under water until they went unconscious, and then resuscitating them. Both of which are pretty terrible activities.

The thread that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, thread.

I love the back and forths in this thread. Has been a hoot.

I don't think waterboarding is the "low end" of the scale. It certainly would appear to be from how it's described, but I think seeing it in practice is pretty scary/intense.

Well, we are talking about a spectrum that involves some excessively horrible things.

No one would say that being waterboarded is a picnic.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I like how you just lumped them as "sick feths". That lends credence to your argument and makes you seem completely impartial.

Don't insult me with this bs, Kanluwen. If someone takes joy in raping and torturing prisoners, if they can pose over the corpse of a man they tortured to death with a thumbs-up and a gak-eating grin, there is something deeply wrong with them. Don't hide behind this feigned concern about my choice of terminology.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Point of symantics: drowning requires death to be drowning. Waterboarding can't actually be drowning unless you die. Much like electrocution, the word implies a method of death, not a method of endangerment.

Drowning requires someone to be in the process of becoming drowned - if someone is struggling in deep water at the beach, you don't wait until they're dead and buried to say they were drowning.

In fact, the World Health Organisation agrees with me:

...Surveillance, however, has been hampered by the lack of a uniform and internationally accepted definition that permits all relevant cases to be counted. To develop a new definition, an international consensus procedure was conducted.... The consensus was that the new definition should include both cases of fatal and nonfatal drowning. After considerable dialogue and debate, the following definition was adopted: “Drowning is the process of experiencing respiratory impairment from submersion/immersion in liquid.” Drowning outcomes should be classified as: death, morbidity, and no morbidity....

Think a lot of you all need to experience a "water boarding" session to have a better grasp on what it is. Please post it on youtube and provide link here. 15-20 mins duration pls. Please have some serious friends you can TRUST if attempted. Also be aware. Nut checks are allowed

 Monster Rain wrote:
Well, we are talking about a spectrum that involves some excessively horrible things.

No one would say that being waterboarded is a picnic.

True. I guess it gets really complicated to quantify when you try and compare physical pain with psychological distress.

This causes me both.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Well, we are talking about a spectrum that involves some excessively horrible things.

No one would say that being waterboarded is a picnic.

True. I guess it gets really complicated to quantify when you try and compare physical pain with psychological distress.

This causes me both.

Spoiler:

I'd fully support a war crimes trial over that.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I like how you just lumped them as "sick feths". That lends credence to your argument and makes you seem completely impartial.

Don't insult me with this bs, Kanluwen. If someone takes joy in raping and torturing prisoners, if they can pose over the corpse of a man they tortured to death with a thumbs-up and a gak-eating grin, there is something deeply wrong with them. Don't hide behind this feigned concern about my choice of terminology.

The problem is that you are assuming that EVERY SINGLE PERSON involved in the process was involved in the abuses.

They clearly were not since it was military personnel who reported the incidents as abuses.

She looked good in Grease with all leather 8)

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident. The thrashing that your body does involuntarily might cause injury, but that's different than bamboo shoots right?

I dunno... can you be fatally wounded with bamboo shoots under the fingernails?

Depends on if infection sets in.

 CptJake wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would think that one could survive waterboarding as long as you keep the idea in your head that you will survive the incident. The thrashing that your body does involuntarily might cause injury, but that's different than bamboo shoots right?

I dunno... can you be fatally wounded with bamboo shoots under the fingernails?

Depends on if infection sets in.

You can certainly be permanently disfigured from that sort of procedure.

I'm not sure where the "fatally wounded" prerequisite came into play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Well, we are talking about a spectrum that involves some excessively horrible things.

No one would say that being waterboarded is a picnic.

True. I guess it gets really complicated to quantify when you try and compare physical pain with psychological distress.

This causes me both.

Spoiler:

That song...

It haunts my dreams.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Point of symantics: drowning requires death to be drowning. Waterboarding can't actually be drowning unless you die. Much like electrocution, the word implies a method of death, not a method of endangerment.

Drowning requires someone to be in the process of becoming drowned - if someone is struggling in deep water at the beach, you don't wait until they're dead and buried to say they were drowning.

In fact, the World Health Organisation agrees with me:

...Surveillance, however, has been hampered by the lack of a uniform and internationally accepted definition that permits all relevant cases to be counted. To develop a new definition, an international consensus procedure was conducted.... The consensus was that the new definition should include both cases of fatal and nonfatal drowning. After considerable dialogue and debate, the following definition was adopted: “Drowning is the process of experiencing respiratory impairment from submersion/immersion in liquid.” Drowning outcomes should be classified as: death, morbidity, and no morbidity....

Hmmm...well, while the dictionary disagrees with the WHO, I'll accept that you can be in the process of drowning without actually completing the process of drowning.

So, point conceded. My bad.