For me, Itar's Workshop either met or somewhat exceeded expectations. They were a little delayed, but absolutely no more than you'd expect -- and their communications were fantastic throughout.
spiralingcadaver wrote: The others aren't miniatures-related so aren't so relevant, but suffice to say other games with nice presentation but disappointing content.
I'm guessing you're talking non-miniature boardgames and/or roleplaying games, and I no longer back them. either. At least with a miniatures boardgame, I can use the miniatures in another game. No point buying an "okay" game when you already have a closet full of them. The OLGS will have the retail game at 30% off or more, and can toss in free shipping.
Arcadia Quests' KS cost was $100 plus $10 shipping to the US. You can get the base set from the BoardGameWarehouse OLGS for $60 as their regular discount. That means you paid $50 for the free exclusives. For the OCD's that's still a good price, but not everyone buys all the expansions of a retail product, so if you don't need all the game content, then retail is an option. No drama, either.
KS does allow a company to put out more expansions than it normally would. DOOM the boardgame had a second expansion planned, but retail funds didn't support it, so it never came out. I doubt the expensive Cthulhu Wars game can support the 15+ expansions for the game.
Anyway, for R&B, I'll put it on my long list of "interested in" games and see what 2015 Black Friday has on sale. Picked up Skull and Shackles from Cardhaus at 50% off this year. Woohoo!
Arcadia Quests' KS cost was $100 plus $10 shipping to the US. You can get the base set from the BoardGameWarehouse OLGS for $60 as their regular discount. That means you paid $50 for the free exclusives. For the OCD's that's still a good price, but not everyone buys all the expansions of a retail product, so if you don't need all the game content, then retail is an option. No drama, either.
KS does allow a company to put out more expansions than it normally would. DOOM the boardgame had a second expansion planned, but retail funds didn't support it, so it never came out. I doubt the expensive Cthulhu Wars game can support the 15+ expansions for the game.
This is one of the major issues with game designs intended to 'get money' via KS. You have two choices... Design a game at a price point which we all know will be much higher than retail, or design a game which needs extreme expansions to have variety.
AQ, is a great game, but I can buy the game retail for much cheaper than the KS... and the exclusives, while nice, simply are not needed. I know lots of people who would like AQ and need nothing more than the base set and just should pay the 60$
Myth is the other extreme... The base box set is UNPLAYABLE and INCOMPLETE. You literally get an incomplete game without extreme expansions and the cost for basic variety is to the tune of 400$ retail, all for a very poorly designed game.
Then you have games like DOOM where backers backed with the expectation of expansions and are now left with a game which is going to lack replay value without the future expansions.
In almost every example... companies need to basically trick people into pre-paying for a product, either by the threat of exclusives, the illusion of extreme value too good to miss or the promise of future support. When compared to retail releases which have to actually survive by making a 'good product' with 'good value' and 'good replay' or else risk ultra failure.
I have stopped backing KS for gameplay. I only back for models I want as I can see a model and know what I am getting and I can decide if the pre-sale value is worth the wait.
nkelsch wrote: This is one of the major issues with game designs intended to 'get money' via KS. You have two choices... Design a game at a price point which we all know will be much higher than retail, or design a game which needs extreme expansions to have variety.
In almost every example... companies need to basically trick people into pre-paying for a product, either by the threat of exclusives, the illusion of extreme value too good to miss or the promise of future support. When compared to retail releases which have to actually survive by making a 'good product' with 'good value' and 'good replay' or else risk ultra failure.
I have stopped backing KS for gameplay. I only back for models I want as I can see a model and know what I am getting and I can decide if the pre-sale value is worth the wait.
Question, where do you see Soda Pop Miniatures' Super Dungeon Explore : Forgotten King? IMO, the SDE:FK base game and base pledge are a good value, with good replay, as an evolution of a known good product. I didn't feel like there were any tricks or gimmicks in the campaign, though there were many non-exclusive expansions that unlocked. They are supposed to deliver (late) in a few months.
Just to clarify, in my post, DOOM was the old FFG game based on the video game. Didn't know there was a DOOM KS game, though!
I'm less cynical about Forgotten Kings. The game ended up "$100 for 100 miniatures" so I didn't back it. But if you looked at SPM's releases for the SDE game, you had two big box expansions and two smaller expansions -- but the smaller expansions didn't have any new sculpts. So, other than the single-miniature expansions, SPM was not releasing new content. (At least, as a boardgamer, I don't perceive single-miniature expansions as the same as boxed ones.)
So... I personally think KS was good for SPM, because, under the traditional retailer-distributor model, they haven't been able to release multiple-miniature expansions with new sculpts. Once FK hits the market, I might think otherwise if they keep putting out standalone sets like CMON did with Zombicide!
@ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.
The KS was great for SPM, because it catapults them into having a much larger set of product that doesn't have any CMoN linkages. I don't think they're following the Zombicide model of annual editions, but we'll see what they do.
I increasingly felt Myth was unprofessionally executed the more I played it, and didn't like their weird overzealous christian thing.
Glad to hear this, I felt like I was the only one who found the strong religious theme coursing through the game incredibly odd. Especially for a high fantasy game of slaughtering bad guys by the dozens.
It probably wouldn't have been as noticeable if it was the usual made up fantasy faiths. Not a decision I would have chosen to make as a designer.
It got my mind off wandering and thinking if we'll see any clergymen or missionaries in some form in Recon.
I increasingly felt Myth was unprofessionally executed the more I played it, and didn't like their weird overzealous christian thing.
Glad to hear this, I felt like I was the only one who found the strong religious theme coursing through the game incredibly odd. Especially for a high fantasy game of slaughtering bad guys by the dozens.
Lots of us noticed, and it really bugged me as well, but there were so many other problems with that fiasco it was hard to know which ones to focus on.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yeah, I'm in a similar spot, where unless the minis are great, I'm pretty wary about not seeing any sort of independent reviews after a few games. I felt pretty burned by a few recently, so it's taking more and more for me to consider just about anything.
You're of course entitled to your opinion but, since you've used the collective "we," mine is that, while Sedition Wars was far from perfect when it came out, I've had far worse 1st editions and quite like where the game eventually ended up, even if it took some beating to get there.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.
SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive. Zombicide could easily do this by now, but they're part of the CMoN business model which is heavily weighed towards being a pre-order of products as front-loaded as possible.
Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition? I don't remember at this point.
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spiralingcadaver wrote: You're of course entitled to your opinion but, since you've used the collective "we," mine is that, while Sedition Wars was far from perfect when it came out, I've had far worse 1st editions and quite like where the game eventually ended up, even if it took some beating to get there.
It's fine for you (or anyone else) to like it. I was using a larger "we" in terms of the gaming community who felt badly burned by the POS.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.
SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive. Zombicide could easily do this by now, but they're part of the CMoN business model which is heavily weighed towards being a pre-order of products as front-loaded as possible.
Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition? I don't remember at this point.
They are - you'll have to get an upgrade deck for each of them IIRC. Backers got all three decks included in the base pledge already though.
The less said about that turd of a game, the better. Sedition Wars had decent (monopose) models hamstrung by easily the worst set of mechanics, stats, and scenarios in modern memory. As a toolkit to create a SHulk-like boardgame, it's got nice components, but grossly overpriced at $100, considering it basically unplayable out of the box.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @ced - SDE released Nov. 2011 - 3 years ago. Via CMoN, SPM released basically a major expansion every year prior to the KS launch, which easily doubles the new content. I'm not sure how or why you discount Roxor or Von Drak, but they're quite fun.
SDE has the advantage of already having a lineage and their initial game out there for a few years - so the long-term quality of the game is far less of a gamble for backers - so they can afford to not be so crazy with the add-ons being KS exclusive.
Out of interest, are Roxor or Von Drak's rules made redundant by the new edition?
SPM's SDE:FK has basically no KS exclusives that hit the tabletop. The only exclusives are the metal coin (in addition to the , the coloring book, and the storage box - none of which drive gameplay.
Roxor and Von Drak will all get 2nd edition stats cards and rules consistent with the new edition.
Mantic make good rules and (now) good scenery. Those two points are pretty universally acknowledged. The masses of crappy figures are easily skippable at this point, and as I said several times in the DKQ thread when people were arguing the "great value" of the figures, I don't value their boardgame plastic figures anywhere near what I do proper miniatures, especially Mantic's sculpts.
Sedition Wars' sculpts ranged from decent in the initial box, but in horrible restic to worse than awful with the wave 2 stuff. The rules... well, SC seems to like them, and I'm sure he's not the only one, but to me they're not worth my time to try and work out at this point - I have better things to play (Including product from both Mantic and CMoN amongst others)...
Before we get too far astray, let me say I do agree with some of the points, and being a bit closer to CMoN than most, I probably view Sedition Wars with a gentler hand. Like I said, I'm still pretty darn happy with the Sedition Wars minis, and I still like the virus mechanic in the rules quite a bit. With that being said, I'll certainly concede that there were (and are) rules problems and understand if people don't have interest in trying to muddle through them.
I'm really looking forward to playing a near complete copy of R&B at CMoN Expo (and maybe even Adepticon, if I go) and can't wait to get a competitive scene going. I think the game will make for very fun, quick tournaments and has a whole lot of potential moving forward.
cincydooley wrote: With that being said, I'll certainly concede that there were (and are) rules problems and understand if people don't have interest in trying to muddle through them.
Sedition Wars had model And rules problems - bit of a fatal concoction, that.
I agree with what a lot of earlier posters said regarding R&B - models are too variable for my tastes (and this is a model-based game!), but if the rules are good, that's something at least.
I stayed in for $1 but am not planning to up it atm, as my board game funds have gone to a few other campaigns, and I'm spoiled for choice on just miniatures... and this is kind of in no mans land between the two.
I'd definitely expect that in 2015 Ted has been putting up WIP stuff on facebook for a good while now - https://www.facebook.com/RivetWars Blood Rage seems to have the February slot so The Others is probably April.
Deadzone Infestation is most likely end of January or beginning of February
Impacts! Chibi Dungeon Adventurers 2 is provisionally February
Rebooting SedWars can only be a good thing, if they revisit it as a simple SHulk d6 game. If it's just a band-aid of exploding d6s, 6+ wounds per model, it's another waste of time.
I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.
I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.
I'm really hoping the KS for that is LATE 2015, and the damn things don't arrive until early 2017. I have sooo many rivets still to paint from the first one.
WHY YOU NO ENTER MY CONTEST?!
I was busy with painting Christmas presents for people; which I believe I said in the thread you made for the contest.
Hey Cincy, not having any RW minis, I didn't pay attention, but I've been in a few competitions, and 30 days is plenty. Some times it's the wrong time of year or there just isn't the right interest in painting, which sucks, but a month is plenty of time unless your only categories are really time-consuming things.
This is actually the big thing I didn't consider with the contest: There are lots of painters that simply don't have the models. Huge brain fart on my behalf.
Well, I don't see how you could have a Rivet Wars painting contest without Rivet Wars minis ...
And I think 30 days is fine, generally speaking. December is just a bad time for things.
Plus, I'm not super big on converting/painting my minis for cutsey themes. A Rivet in a Santa hat throwing a snowball is good for a chuckle. But looks really out of place in the game naturally. That means I have to either paint extra/repaint - and I have sooo many to paint that I'm not keen on doing that.
I've occasionally bought minis for painting competitions, but the problem with RW is that it's so hyper stylized that you can't really say "well, I'll proxy this as a sergeant" very easily, and it looks like the cheapest RW item is $30, so there's no easy purchase to paint up a fun single mini...
I'm not so troubled by themed stuff, though- it takes more creativity, but you can usually figure out a way of getting it to fit if you do something more subtle.
Appreciate the feedback, fellas, a lot! I'll definitely keep both of those in mind when I do the next one.
I'm trying to keep the Painting contests I run for CMoN stuff focused on their board/boxed games, which does certainly limit the audience.
I was considering doing a Kaosball Coaches Bust painting contest next....but again, getting models to people. I do have some extras laying around, I think, so I could offer to mail them to perspective painters.....
Wow, a free mini would be plenty of incentive to try my hand at something. I expect CMoN could be willing to provide those if you did the leg work, since it'd be promoting their line.
Regarding themes, I'd strongly suggest either making theme optional/bonus points, a very broad/easily interpreted theme, or making there be at least one category that was themeless, because, while some people like the challenge or inspiration of a theme, some want to paint a pretty model that fits their army (as evidenced in my and Schmapdl's responses).
spiralingcadaver wrote: Wow, a free mini would be plenty of incentive to try my hand at something. I expect CMoN could be willing to provide those if you did the leg work, since it'd be promoting their line.
Regarding themes, I'd strongly suggest either making theme optional/bonus points, a very broad/easily interpreted theme, or making there be at least one category that was themeless, because, while some people like the challenge or inspiration of a theme, some want to paint a pretty model that fits their army (as evidenced in my and Schmapdl's responses).
Oh for sure. The Rivet Wars theme for the Christmas Truce is one that I really loved because it fit the game really well.
Here was the winner, by the way:
Mathieu did a really minimal amount of converting here. Changed some of the dynamite to champagne bottles. I think thats about it.
Anyone have answers on this, I messaged them on KS but haven't had any replies for a couple weeks. I am looking at what I would need to get without making duplicates. Even though the "Captain" graphic on the main page doesn't show this... the Pledge Manager says Captain comes with the following:
Rum & Bones Core Box
Mercenary Heroes Set #2
Helrökkers
Mercenaries Promos Set #1
Mercenaries Promos Set #2
Wellsport Brotherhood Mix
Bone Devils Mix
Sea Creatures Pack
Deck Guns
Mercenary Tide Deck
Plastic Coins
Custom Dice
That means I don't have to add-on Wellsport Brotherhood Mix and Bone Devils Mix because it is part of Captain pledge right?
How many plastic coins are in the average game, would I need to get another set?
Is the Mercenaries Heroes Set #1 Add-on the same as the Mercenaries Promos Set #1 that comes with Captain pledge?
If I get Mazu's Dreadful Curse Expansion and LaBrise Sanguine Expansion, do they have different heroes than those that come with the Mazu's Dreadful Curse Heroes Set #1 and La Brise Sanguine Heroes Set #1?
That leaves the following add-ons for completion? Luck Goddesses and Skullkickers
Doesn't the completist pledge for this one come to something like $300 again? I'd like to get it in theory, but it's clearly not like CMoN has any intention to stop pumping out boardgames anytime soon - and sadly there's only so much time to play...
Yes, $305 for everything except the dice/duplicates of coins etc.
I think that for this one, the base pledge offers more than enough variety. You could get the two expansions as well, but that costs almost as much as the base pledge for substantially less content.
We don't know their retail price yet, but I'm sure you could probably get a better price in the shop. Unless Australia is just as bad as the UK for this stuff (i.e. retail price typically just swaps the dollar sign for a pound sign).
The non-base pledge 'exclusives' are actually pretty minimal - one model for each expansion, the Luck Goddesses (which are...not really to my taste) and the Skullkickers (which are not brilliant models, and are more for fans of a fairly niche comic).
I think the pledge manager is quite clear about the difference between the add-ons and the base pledge contents. The "Heroes Sets" in the add-ons do not overlap with the base pledge "Mix" contents, or the heroes in the 2 expansions. They are extra heroes for each faction.
Australian retail is far from great. Undead Pirate models would be one of the bigger hooks for me, though I'm not sure how much the various add-ons add to the game. In Zombicide for example, the extra characters add a lot (IMO).
Well, this is billed as a DOTA-alike, where the characters (and therefore the composition of a team) have a huge impact on how the game plays.
Like a CCG, you're looking to go for a particular strategy before you begin playing, and your team make-up is chosen to match this. I actually think that having 4 distinct factions might limit them in this regard, but both expansions change the "map" that you're playing on, and the strategies that can be employed.
They did post a couple of updates concerning how you might build a team:
So you might have a support character without any direct attacks at all, that buffs your hordes. You might be all about controlling enemy heroes, with push/pull skills. You might have one hero that inflicts long-lasting statuses, and tanks that can then stop these heroes from fleeing to seek recovery.
Hm.. thanks. I'm really more interested in undead pirates, regular pirates and perhaps some sexy pirate babes than anything else from this, and I've got/got access to plenty of DOTAs on PC that require little effort to play (especially compared to a board game), yet I don't play them, either. Might end up one that's better for me to skip, depite the nice minis in it, especially as a lot of the nicer looking models are in relatively expensive add-on packs.
alanmckenzie wrote: Mine arrived yesterday. Very impressed with the quality of components.
The boxes of extra heroes and things are huge though. Didn't think I ordered too many extra add-ons, but now I'm not sure where to store it all.
Looking forward to trying it out. Not sure when, mind you.
I can't exactly rationalise this, but I'm actually rather angry at CMON for how over-packaged some of their Kickstarters are recently! World of Smog is a fairly straightforward Eurogame, but still comes in a giant deep box. The R&B Extras all come in beautiful thick boxes with full colour art, viewing windows, blurb on the back - and 80% of them are Kickstarter Exclusives and will never be sold again! The boxes can't even be used for storing things in, as they have those big viewing holes cut in the tops.
As a result, I got this truly colossal package showing up at my front door (bigger and heavier than a child), and spent a couple of hours just going through everything and removing packaging. Many models are inside a taped down plastic clamshell inside a cardboard box, inside another cardboard box, inside a layer of shrinkwrap, inside another cardboard box. All of the waste cardboard and plastic is enough to fill several bins!
I don't know if the only other alternative is the Mantic-style "toss them all in a bag", but as long as they reach me in one piece, that's essentially where they're going to end up anyway.
Oh, and the models are of really quite good quality (but certainly do lose some detail on the smaller faces), and the game is supposed to be remarkably fun, so might be worth looking out for at retail!
alanmckenzie wrote: Mine arrived yesterday. Very impressed with the quality of components.
The boxes of extra heroes and things are huge though. Didn't think I ordered too many extra add-ons, but now I'm not sure where to store it all.
Looking forward to trying it out. Not sure when, mind you.
I can't exactly rationalise this, but I'm actually rather angry at CMON for how over-packaged some of their Kickstarters are recently! World of Smog is a fairly straightforward Eurogame, but still comes in a giant deep box. The R&B Extras all come in beautiful thick boxes with full colour art, viewing windows, blurb on the back - and 80% of them are Kickstarter Exclusives and will never be sold again! The boxes can't even be used for storing things in, as they have those big viewing holes cut in the tops.
As a result, I got this truly colossal package showing up at my front door (bigger and heavier than a child), and spent a couple of hours just going through everything and removing packaging. Many models are inside a taped down plastic clamshell inside a cardboard box, inside another cardboard box, inside a layer of shrinkwrap, inside another cardboard box. All of the waste cardboard and plastic is enough to fill several bins!
I don't know if the only other alternative is the Mantic-style "toss them all in a bag", but as long as they reach me in one piece, that's essentially where they're going to end up anyway.
Oh, and the models are of really quite good quality (but certainly do lose some detail on the smaller faces), and the game is supposed to be remarkably fun, so might be worth looking out for at retail!
I know where you're coming from here. I don't mind the actual game box itself. It's quite large, larger than probably necessary, but it's a nice box and I enjoyed opening it and going through it.
The packaging for the extras however, as you say, does seem a bit wasteful. And really impractical from a storage point of view (particularly when storage at home is extremely scarce). I expect that I'll end up buying a nice little wooden box to store all the extras in but that just makes the existing packaging seem like an even bigger waste. Again, as you say, the boxes are quite nice, but I expect that the vast majority will end up in the bin. I'm not overly fussed, but I don't really like binning nice things.
As an example, here is a picture of the sea creatures box with the obligatory space marine for scale. There are only 9 small and 1 reasonably large (SM dreadnought sized) models in this massive (but nice) box....
And when we roll back to Sedition Wars, the first big CMON game, the got a load of stick for all the extras just coming in plastic bags with no packaging
so then we got nice boxes with the zombicide survivors,
and then came the plastic trays for everything (not sure which campaign introduced them) which I suspect are done to reduce the amount of breakages and thus replacements needing expensive shipping, since the thinner bits of the pvc minis are not as sturdy as unbuilt HIPS stuff 'on sprue' or metal
fwiw, the Zombicide 3 extras came in a plain cardboard box with plastic inserts.
My guess for the fancy packaging is that CMON wasn't sure whether or not they'd sell the units at retail, so went with the "retail packaging" option. Dunno.
Oh yes, I'm perfectly fine with the big boxes for the main game (and 2 expansions), as there's a lot of nice stuff that has to be stored!
If you have the expansions, you can probably get away with putting the extra (non-faction) Mercs in these and the "core" extras (like the coins, dice and Sea Monsters) in the main box, and just get rid of the rest.
I agree that it's better to have nicer glossy boxes than everything being badly packed into loose bags, but somebone's paying for all of this packaging (and shipping the product in this packaging), and it isn't CMON!
It's probably just a combination of:
1) CMON Kickstarters are so successful that they produce more exclusive product than most games have entire print runs, so it's economical.
2) The factories are making similar packaging for R&B product which isn't exclusive (like the faction boosters), so this can all be part of the same order.
3) It makes it much easier to resell exclusives for a tidy profit, which encourages people to pledge for multiple extra copies up front.
Exclusive or not, Kickstarter or not, it's just nice to see boardgames and boardgame models become such slick productions, when you compare things to a mere decade ago!
That was actually one of my sticky points with Kaosball.
I have all the teams (except team #5 apparently) and I tried to convince myself to get rid of the individual team boxes, but they're just too well done. They store easily. They're clearly labeled everywhere. They're pretty perfect. But they take up a lot of space.
But I'll tell you what, I'll take a well designed, organized box insert that I may CHOOSE to throw out because I find a better solution than a box with no insert or a gakky insert that I have to find a better solution for.
Anyone know what we're supposed to do with mercenaries?
How do we integrate their cards (do we?) Do they replace the original crew or do they plop down on top? I didn't see anything about this and am trying to figure it out. I got mine in today and am super excited
Mercs can fill in for whatever position on the sip they serve- captain, quartermaster, swashbuckler... whatever. You just swap out the basic character for the job on your boat.
The tide deck for the mercs is if you want to run a full mercenary crew in lieu of a different crew (wellsport or brotherhood for example).
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Mercs can fill in for whatever position on the sip they serve- captain, quartermaster, swashbuckler... whatever. You just swap out the basic character for the job on your boat.
The tide deck for the mercs is if you want to run a full mercenary crew in lieu of a different crew (wellsport or brotherhood for example).
So basically if all of your officers are mercs you can run the merc deck instead? Sounds cool.
Game was back and forth, but in the end the Kraken emerged and wiped me out.