whembly wrote: Simply put, no one has a right to protection at a Hamas firing position. There is no international law or convention that mandates such protection. That’s what makes it a war crime to wage combat from behind protected persons or sites.
And when, like in the ndtv video, Hamas is placing rockets close to people who obviously aren't affiliated with them, and don't want them there? They have no means of stopping Hamas; if they were to try and fight back they would be killed for 'supporting Israel', but you're saying it's not a war crime to target them? What, are all the foreign journalists in that hotel suddenly voluntary human shields for Hamas? And the same thing goes for normal Palestinians; I very much doubt that they have any feasible means of saying no to Hamas with regards to where they put their stuff, but they're supposed to just grin and bear it when they have their homes destroyed, and they're then shot at in the refugee shelter they were told to go to by Israel because Hamas decided they would put rockets there?
Both sides of this conflict are neck deep in bs, but one of the things that really pisses me off is the lazy-ass 'oh, but they were obviously human shields' argument that comes out of supporters of Israel, as if the people whose lives they're explaining away had any amount of choice in the matter.
The UN has no credibility. They've admitted that Hamas was storing rockets in their schools not once, but THREE TIMES now. When UNRWA found rockets in their schools, they gave them back to Palestinian police, AKA Hamas.
Again...just as when this came up earlier, that's something of an unfair criticism. What exactly were they supposed to do with them? It's not like they were going to be able to get someone else to come in and take them, it's not like the UNRWA people are explosives ordnance disposal experts, nor would they have any way of stopping Hamas from taking them back if they wanted, and trying to turn them over to Israel wasn't exactly an option...
The UN has no credibility. They've admitted that Hamas was storing rockets in their schools not once, but THREE TIMES now. When UNRWA found rockets in their schools, they gave them back to Palestinian police, AKA Hamas.
Again...just as when this came up earlier, that's something of an unfair criticism. What exactly were they supposed to do with them? It's not like they were going to be able to get someone else to come in and take them, it's not like the UNRWA people are explosives ordnance disposal experts, nor would they have any way of stopping Hamas from taking them back if they wanted, and trying to turn them over to Israel wasn't exactly an option...
Point taken. My response is this - UNRWA are not bomb disposal experts, but the UN certainly has open communication with UNIFIL assets in Lebanon, which is a stone's throw (no pun intended) away.
In short - call for backup from UNIFIL, tell the IDF to make them aware of the situation, or just plain sit on them and tell Hamas, "You stored rockets here...you aren't going to get them back." There are plenty of things they could do. Giving them to Hamas basically gives a green light to Hamas to store weapons in UN facilities in the future.
We had similar issues with Hezbollah operating IN and FROM UN bunkers in Lebanon. And the world whined when we shelled UN outposts - of course we did. We watched Hezbollah troops emerge from UN bunkers, fire on us, then run back inside. If the world thinks I'm going to play a shell game with my life, they're sadly mistaken. No, I'm calling for artillery on that bunker and it's goodnight sweet prince - sleep with dogs and you get fleas. Let terrorists use your bunkers and well...get artillery shells.
So its the unarmed civilians fault they died because armed people they may not even agree with came out and maybe put a rocket there.
maybe if the IDF drooped the Dahiya doctrine BS, and focused on locating where the rockets came from and where the enemy is they would have less civilian casualties. Many of the UN shelters, schools, and hospitals that were shelled reported no Hamas military casualties so obviously they were not there. In fact according to multiple news sources weapons have been fired from the vicinity of residential areas / UN schools/ Hospitals, but not from those structures themselves despite the fact israel is directing fire at those structures. Rockets/ ammunition have only been found at abandoned schools so far, other than one that israeli reported back in july 22nd called the police to inform them they had found rockets on their property and asked for them to be removed.
There have been no reports of Hamas actually firing from the structures that have been shelled, just of firing from the vicinity, and there are no reports of Hamas exiting hospitals/ schools / refugee camps to fire on IDF then go back inside.
Not much like the analogy of bunkers in lebanon where troops emerged to fire then went back in to hide.
That terrorists may be forcing there way into public areas with weapons, do you think the locals are going to put up any fight to stop them? Then israel might shell the public structure, the people will eventually run out of places to go as refugees, hospitals, etc. Yes if Hamas is hiding there it is not good, but that does not take away the fact that IDF are killing innocent people.
blaktoof wrote: So its the unarmed civilians fault they died because armed people they may not even agree with came out and maybe put a rocket there.
maybe if the IDF drooped the Dahiya doctrine BS, and focused on locating where the rockets came from and where the enemy is they would have less civilian casualties. Many of the UN shelters, schools, and hospitals that were shelled reported no Hamas military casualties so obviously they were not there. In fact according to multiple news sources weapons have been fired from the vicinity of residential areas / UN schools/ Hospitals, but not from those structures themselves despite the fact israel is directing fire at those structures. Rockets/ ammunition have only been found at abandoned schools so far, other than one that israeli reported back in july 22nd called the police to inform them they had found rockets on their property and asked for them to be removed.
There have been no reports of Hamas actually firing from the structures that have been shelled, just of firing from the vicinity, and there are no reports of Hamas exiting hospitals/ schools / refugee camps to fire on IDF then go back inside.
Not much like the analogy of bunkers in lebanon where troops emerged to fire then went back in to hide.
That terrorists may be forcing there way into public areas with weapons, do you think the locals are going to put up any fight to stop them? Then israel might shell the public structure, the people will eventually run out of places to go as refugees, hospitals, etc. Yes if Hamas is hiding there it is not good, but that does not take away the fact that IDF are killing innocent people.
#1) The whole Dahiya doctrine is inferred. Proof that the IDF actually follows this doctrine?
#2) This is a propaganda war. Ever heard of the term "useful idiot?" Because if you truly believe that Palestinians are accurately reporting their casualties then I've got a bridge to sell you. Something like 3/4 of the casualties were military aged males despite the majority of the Gaza population actually being children. But sure...they're all just civilians.
#3) One main reason that the military casualties are lower than they should be (IDF reports around ~750 and I trust this number far more than the number provided by Hamas...Hezbollah's numbers were WAY off. I'm talking like 400% kind of way off...) is that the techniques used to reduce civilian casualties (roof knocking) also warn enemy combatants. The IDF has been trying to target munitions stockpiles exclusively. But when your major source of intelligence is aerial recon, it's very difficult to see what you're targeting.
I'm assuming that you've never served in any kind of military capacity right? If you had, you would know better than to make ridiculous recommendations that are completely unrealistic.
Multiple media outlets report that Hamas’s offensive tunnel network – now known to have been composed of over forty attack tunnels dug underneath Israel’s border with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip – was set to be activated during the Jewish High Holidays (September 24th) as a mass terror attack.
The attack was meant to generate as many as ten thousand casualties, men, women and particularly children and hundreds of captives. Explosives were particularly placed underneath kindergartens to make certain that these “institutions” would be the first struck, even before any thing else.
The IDF recently published the below map showing that tunnels were created in pairs, to empty out on both sides of nearby communities. The known cost of the infrastructure – each tunnel costs upward of some $1 million – clearly shows that Hamas was planning a coordinated mega-attack. It must be understood that use of even one tunnel would inevitably trigger Israeli retaliation against the entire network.
A map of a small portion of the tunnels meant to be used 9 weeks from now.
Revelations regarding the planned tunnel attack magnitude played a decisive role in the Israeli government’s rejection of a ceasefire proposed late Friday by Secretary of State John Kerry.
Unbelievably, Kerry actually proposed in his latest “cease-fire proposal” – none of which have been honored by Hamas so far – that Israel refrains from degrading remaining attack tunnels. This mind-boggling concept would necessarily be rejected by any sane government, of any country.
Israeli security sources, citing information acquired in interrogations of captured brigands, described a scenario under which hundreds of heavily armed Hamas fighters would have spilled out into Israel in the dead of night and within 10 minutes been positioned to infiltrate essentially all Israeli communities surrounding the Gaza Strip. Waiting then in hiding until schools and kindergartens were occupied, the terrorists would then attempt to kill the children first, and then kill and kidnap as many Israelis as possible. The plot was set to take place during Jewish New Year, on September 24.
“It’s like the Underground, the Metro or the Subway,” Israeli military spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said. “These tunnels are all connected. I would describe it as Lower Gaza.”
Israeli Economy Minister Naftali Bennett said, “A whole city of terror tunnels has been found. Without the ground operation, we would have woken up one day to an Israeli 9/11.”
Except, the actual objective was to be five times 9/11. This picture shows clearly the width of one of the tunnels, sufficient for wheeled vehicles to transverse it. Hamas did not build a “subway” system for Gaza residents. They built an infrastructure for one purpose, and one only, an industry of death.
sraeli military officials reported that the tunnels are stocked with tranquilizers, handcuffs, syringes, ropes and other materials used for subduing abductees, civilians and soldiers. The tunnels also had fantastic quantities of explosives and additional military materiel meant to be used in the up-coming mega attack. Much of these explosives had already been placed underneath Israeli kindergartens. Some of these tunnels were as deep as 30 meters underground.
Fantastic quantities of explosives were stored in every tunnel, meant to be used in a mega-attack on civilian communities and infrastructure.
Sources say the Gaza Strip war, Operation Protective Edge, could serve as a prelude for a more extensive underground war with the Iranian-sponsored Hezbollah. Perhaps, not ‘just’ in the Middle East.
The tunnels inside Gaza and under the Israeli border are not a secret project Hamas ran under the noses of Israel and the Palestinian public. Everyone in Gaza, knew that beneath Gaza, the City and all of its environs, a network of tunnels was being dug over the past five years, with an investment of tens of millions of dollars. Yet no one in Israel, public or military, was prepared for the scope of the tunnels – the danger that became clear in the past week or two.
Senior Hamas operatives show off their offensive tunnels to their spouses. Unbelievably, this is actually a picture of a Marriage taking place in the ‘place of death’.
In order to create this monstrosity, Hamas needed significant professional help; and this help had to have come from a large organization or state entity. This is not just the monetary aid it received from Qatar, America’s ally. This is professional guidance for the performance of such an underground feat. Perhaps Hamas could have used experts from the tunnels dug at Rafah under the Gaza-Egypt border, but those were significantly simpler, and did not demand any extraordinary investment or effort.
Who supplied these quantities of material? Who planned what would be needed? How did Hamas acquire thousands of ampoules of tranquilizer, syringes and other, additional drugs to be used? These are far beyond the quantities and variety of what is needed by any civilian medical service.
How was all this brought in to the Gaza Strip? The logistics of this planned attack are the work of a well-organised military, not that of a militia or club. This was no amateur plan.
Observers note that attack scenarios lined up with recently revealed data about the sophistication, scope and nature of the offensive tunnel network. As previously reported here, this sophistication and know-how is being copied right now by Mexico-based Hezbollah agents along the Southern US border. Tunnels in Southern Lebanon, as in South US, are significantly more difficult to detect than those in the sandy terrain of the Gaza Strip.
“Hamas planned these tunnels for years, and planned to use them to kidnap soldiers,” Israeli military spokesman Brig. Gen. Mordechai Almoz said. “[Now] they see the tunnels collapsing one after the other.” For the last two years, the Israeli army has sought to develop skills and equipment to fight in enemy tunnels and bunkers. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have used tunnels to operate command and control, to infiltrate Israel and abduct soldiers, to fire rockets and to conceal fighters amid invasion of the Gaza Strip.
Besides having "large quantities" of Tranquilizers in the tunnels is very strange in itself... I'm curious what they are exactly and how much have they found? I'm have experience in medication procurement for large hospitals in the states...
I'm assuming that you've never served in any kind of military capacity right? If you had, you would know better than to make ridiculous recommendations that are completely unrealistic.
Glad you made silly assumptions then thought I had recommendations not sure what you read..I didn't make reccomendations, I said Hamas are at fault for involving citizens, and that its ridiculous to think citizens are going to stop armed Hamas, then I said Israel is also at fault for shelling citizens, as it has been reported that the only buildings that had weapons stockpiled found at them were abandoned, ie there was no one there. The UN buildings shelled had Hamas fire from the vicinity but there was no report of Hamas leaving said buildings, firing, and then re entering said buildings.
So yes other than high ranking IDF members, ie generals, and members of their government saying it exists and they have followed it and are following it, not sure what other proof is needed.
Relapse wrote: All that money and material and effort for the tunnels that could have gone to the population.
here's the thing: that argument makes sense on its surface, but the tunnels were only able to be made in secret, partially because they're tunnels, but partially because there's an embargo on the materials used to make them.
What do you think would have happened if they tried to make a building instead? Israel sees them making something with materials that they have explicitly forbidden, and just goes 'nah, it's all cool'? Or, far more likely, they see it and go 'you're not allowed to use those materials' and destroys the building?
They're just going to do it again. Build tunnels and restock rockets. Hamas is not an Army. They do not wear a uniform. Hamas has support of the general population so why would the general population turn on Hamas.
Jihadin wrote: They're just going to do it again. Build tunnels and restock rockets. Hamas is not an Army. They do not wear a uniform. Hamas has support of the general population so why would the general population turn on Hamas.
No wonder construction supplies are on the list to be limited if this is what gets done with them.
Why its on the restricted list. That's a lot of cement being used to support the tunnels. Still though North Korea has Gaza beat on tunneling under borders Ole Neyten about to do a press conference. Curious if he's going to rip Kerry and Obama.
most of the dead and wounded are not "fighting aged men"
of course they are going to do it again. Israel has essentially put Hamas in concentration camps. Not Nazi death camps, but more like manzanar. Not that those places were "fun" or a place where a civilization could thrive either. No matter where you are from if you live in if another nation magically popped up one day and was propped up by a lot of nations more powerful than yours, and then they imposed their will on you making your life significantly worse you will not be happy.
which is amazing as shipping all of the residents of gaza to tents in sinai is of course similar to other things that have happened in history where people were shipped somewhere else..
Not to mention israels continued criminal "settlement" advancement into areas of the west bank which were clearly laid out as palestinian territory by the mutual parties in 1967- because the Israel government believes god gave them this land through moses. Obviously the old testament is a legally binding contract and any treaties or pacts they make mean nothing if they do not go along with YHVH.
They are both at fault because neither one will stop trying to kill the other, but the people are stuck in the middle of the idealogical conflict of two ruling parties. The people are not putting a human shield around the military, the military is using them as a shield, and the other military gives 0 feths about it.
Jihadin wrote: Why its on the restricted list. That's a lot of cement being used to support the tunnels. Still though North Korea has Gaza beat on tunneling under borders Ole Neyten about to do a press conference. Curious if he's going to rip Kerry and Obama.
Hamas is using cement, lumber, etc. to build the tunnels to launch a major offensive and bitching about having no building supplies and being attacked.
Baron. I'm not going to beat around the bush. Your a straight up Chuckle Head. You never heard of "Shoot and Scoot"? As for the "Cease Fire" either side could have have maintain the time duration to put the other side in a even worse moral position. As for your "motorcycle" incident I am under the impression those idiots did a "drive by" and got opted out in the process in front of a school.
IDF did not mention actually getting the target, which they would have done to justify the shelling, so I'm guessing they made some assumptions about the crowd of people outside the school gates (also, no wrecked bike appears in the footage of the aftermath of the strike). And, yes, I know quite a bit about shoot and scoot. My point being that if they're shooting and scooting, there's no point in firing on their previous position because they're long gone. A good mortar team can hang three in the air and be packed up and gone before the first one hits. The only reason to fire like they did is if you have eyes on them and fire a guided round before they can pack it in. Given the distances involved, time to target's pretty short.
I do notice you mention the ice trick, but not the fact that a dumpster or crate can hold a whole battery of tubes tied to an electric igniter and a timer. It's much more effective and you can be a long way away when it starts to pop. (Just ask the IRA)
I can't say I sympathize much with Israel over this. Even the most favorable numbers put the death toll at about 70% civvies. I don't really view that as acceptable. I grant Hamas are donkey-caves of the first order, but this seems way too indiscriminate.
Notice I mention M109 Paladin. An Artillery system geared towards GPS coordinates. Basically in a ten meter strike hit zone. Notice its one shell instead of a typical Battery Strike? A Battery Fire Mission is spread over 100m blanket for four tubes. Notice the missiles and bombs are laser guided and not "dumb" ordinance
Notice I made a reference to Excalibur earlier and also noted they did not seem to be using it. I looked it up and it seems I was mistaken and that sale of GPS guided rounds such as Excalibur to Israel was not cleared. Further, Israel still uses the M109A5, not the A6 Paladin, meaning they're flinging (probably) M107's (or some local manufactured round). So, best case scenario we're looking at an equivalent to the M795 with CCF. That's still pretty inaccurate for firing into an urban area. Particularly one like Gaza where every miss is likely to hit someone.
Baron. I'm not going to beat around the bush. Your a straight up Chuckle Head. You never heard of "Shoot and Scoot"? As for the "Cease Fire" either side could have have maintain the time duration to put the other side in a even worse moral position. As for your "motorcycle" incident I am under the impression those idiots did a "drive by" and got opted out in the process in front of a school.
IDF did not mention actually getting the target, which they would have done to justify the shelling, so I'm guessing they made some assumptions about the crowd of people outside the school gates (also, no wrecked bike appears in the footage of the aftermath of the strike). And, yes, I know quite a bit about shoot and scoot. My point being that if they're shooting and scooting, there's no point in firing on their previous position because they're long gone. A good mortar team can hang three in the air and be packed up and gone before the first one hits. The only reason to fire like they did is if you have eyes on them and fire a guided round before they can pack it in. Given the distances involved, time to target's pretty short.
I do notice you mention the ice trick, but not the fact that a dumpster or crate can hold a whole battery of tubes tied to an electric igniter and a timer. It's much more effective and you can be a long way away when it starts to pop. (Just ask the IRA)
I can't say I sympathize much with Israel over this. Even the most favorable numbers put the death toll at about 70% civvies. I don't really view that as acceptable. I grant Hamas are donkey-caves of the first order, but this seems way too indiscriminate.
Notice I mention M109 Paladin. An Artillery system geared towards GPS coordinates. Basically in a ten meter strike hit zone. Notice its one shell instead of a typical Battery Strike? A Battery Fire Mission is spread over 100m blanket for four tubes. Notice the missiles and bombs are laser guided and not "dumb" ordinance
Notice I made a reference to Excalibur earlier and also noted they did not seem to be using it. I looked it up and it seems I was mistaken and that sale of GPS guided rounds such as Excalibur to Israel was not cleared. Further, Israel still uses the M109A5, not the A6 Paladin, meaning they're flinging (probably) M107's (or some local manufactured round). So, best case scenario we're looking at an equivalent to the M795 with CCF. That's still pretty inaccurate for firing into an urban area. Particularly one like Gaza where every miss is likely to hit someone.
I'm just going to throw this in and step out.
IDF Artillery unit
55th Artillery Battalion ("Dragon")
402nd Artillery Battalion ("Fire")
- equipped with M109 A5 Paladin SP Howitzer
So far, the most popular upgrade abroad is the M109A5+, which adds independent position location via GPS/INS, and radio transmission of co-ordinates. It’s a budget-conscious upgrade that omits the M109A6′s automatic gun-laying, which would require a tear-down and rebuild of the turret. It also omits the PIM upgrades, which make very substantial changes to every part of the vehicle.
Actually, yes they are, because I've posted a link that shows this and you've posted a link containing nothing but provocative pictures that prove absolutely nothing about numbers. Thanks for playing though...in the future try to use the thing between your ears instead of "thinking with your heart."
This graphic contains the data as of July 21
There's no reason to think that the proportions have changed meaningfully. If you have some proof to the contrary feel free to post it.
As for your account of history, I suggest that you read a book, or at the very least, a Wikipedia page. Israel won its war of independence with little to no help from other countries. The real miracle was Arab Nationalist ineptitude and tribal attitudes contributing to a breakdown of strategic and tactical ability, not the Israelis being aided by other countries.
Anyway, here's the Wikipedia link. I suggest you read it before you embarrass yourself further.
Actually, yes they are, because I've posted a link that shows this and you've posted a link containing nothing but provocative pictures that prove absolutely nothing about numbers. Thanks for playing though...in the future try to use the thing between your ears instead of "thinking with your heart."
This graphic contains the data as of July 21
Anyway, here's the Wikipedia link. I suggest you read it before you embarrass yourself further.
oh look a poorly done graph from an israeli slanted newspaper showing that most of the people they are killing are combatant aged males, firstly not all combatant aged males are combatants. secondly that graph is obviously fraudalent as the pics I posted show more dead babies than the amount of people they have in the combined 0-10 range, and babies of course are 0-1. Regardless of that it shows 66% of the dead are males between 18-38 which according to the al jazeera site they pulled the data from http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html says other numbers... as does http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/20528
Even if 66% of the casualties were males 18-38 most of them are not combatants in either the military or a militia.
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) estimated that 1,312 (85%) of 1,814 deaths they documented, were civilians, of whom 622 (34% of all deaths) were women or children.[16] The Israeli government has maintained that at least 47% of Gazan fatalities have been combatants.[37]
So israels estimate is that 47% of the people they have killed have been combatants, this of course is most likely inflated in the same way Hamas has claimed most of the dead are civilians.
The UN extimated that ~85%of the deaths are Civilians that they documented. They are probably more impartial than the IDF or Hamas estimates.
as for Israel winning its "independence" that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was talking about the 1967 conflict where the armistace agreement drew borders that israel continued to push and recently broke because they got all butt hurt that palestine joined the UN as a non member observer state, I also mentioned how Israel was propped up by other countries-which they were and have been. Ie the UN went against the UN mandate of a nations right to self determination divided up palestine into Israel and what was then palestine, which the british had propped up and put israel into place in 1917.
so no idea why you are talking about the 1948 war after the UN mandate. Are you upset that someone thinks that both Israel and Hamas are guilty of killing the same innocents? Also i'm not embarrassed or even anyway involved in this emotionally, just bored at work, no idea why you would think that either.
as for thinking with your heart its obvious you like the IDF a lot, which is fine, and you are totally biased because of it. Which is fine, most people are biased towards the things they like.
Well, when considering casualty counts for non-uniformed insurgents you are presented with an awful question.
How can you tell a dead Hamas terrorist from a dead Palestinian civilian?
Correct if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can.
So Israel will show most of the fighting aged men as combatants, and Hamas will hide their fallen weapons before photographing them and call them civilians. The truth will likely never be known, and lies somewhere between the propaganda.
My comments are specifically targeted at corpses of fighting aged men- I have not commented on casualties of women or children.
IDF Artillery unit
55th Artillery Battalion ("Dragon")
402nd Artillery Battalion ("Fire")
- equipped with M109 A5 Paladin SP Howitzer
That's incorrect. Israel is fitted with the M109A5 but the M109A5 is not Paladin (A6) M109A5 is a M109A4 with a A6's gun and mount, but none of the rest of it's systems.
So far, the most popular upgrade abroad is the M109A5+, which adds independent position location via GPS/INS, and radio transmission of co-ordinates. It’s a budget-conscious upgrade that omits the M109A6′s automatic gun-laying, which would require a tear-down and rebuild of the turret. It also omits the PIM upgrades, which make very substantial changes to every part of the vehicle.
Israel also have a version of a Copperhead round.
A5+ is, point of fact, the only 'upgrade' to the A5 available for sale (unless the Swiss change their minds. The changes to the hull for the A6 are too extensive to be a simple upgrade package), and is BAE systems baby. Thus far, it has only been sold to Chile, though Brazil filed a request to purchase that upgrade kit back at the beginning of June as well that is still working it's way through the approval process.
I was unaware that the Israelis have something like Copperhead, though it's not surprising. However, again, they need eyes on the target to illuminate it .
The article itself plays on Israelis worst fears too, that Hamas is coming to slaughter all their children. Kids are a big thing for a lot of Israelis, more so than is usual.
That article being from the DailyCaller... well yeah, hardly worth putting a lot of trust in, but I have heard from more reputable sources that these tunnels were not coming up to military targets. They were being found coming up into schools, housing areas, all civilian centers.
These were designed for one purpose and one purpose only, terror.
djones520 wrote: That article being from the DailyCaller... well yeah, hardly worth putting a lot of trust in, but I have heard from more reputable sources that these tunnels were not coming up to military targets. They were being found coming up into schools, housing areas, all civilian centers.
These were designed for one purpose and one purpose only, terror.
Or smuggling.
While from what I've seen many had use for stealing power and basic services from civilian areas. Phone, power, even cable. That and taking delivery of, say, construction materials in a civilian area is not going to draw a lot of scrutiny as long as some actual construction is going on.
Don;t get me wrong, an inserion point is an inserion point, but given the sizes of some of these tunnels, I'm gonna say that wasn't the primary intended use for all of them.
The plus up Baron is everything else but the automated laying of the tube. They no longer need to run out firing poles or use a collimeter to emplace the tube. They still run up by the guide stakes set up to point them into an azimuth of fire of 3-4 mils.
Israel has a crap load of drones over Gaza. Does not take a "joe" to sparkle a target.
Jihadin wrote: The plus up Baron is everything else but the automated laying of the tube. They no longer need to run out firing poles or use a collimeter to emplace the tube. They still run up by the guide stakes set up to point them into an azimuth of fire of 3-4 mils.
Israel has a crap load of drones over Gaza. Does not take a "joe" to sparkle a target.
looks familiar eh
Yeah,its the abandoned UN school we know they fired rockets from. The 5+ also does not come with PIM. And, again, is not currently used by Israel, who still use the standard A5.
The PIM modernization effort represents a significant upgrade of the M109A6 Paladin Self-Propelled Howitzer which includes buying back space, weight and power-cooling (SWaP-C) to ensure the system remains relevant with room to add new capabilities in the future.
While the vehicle's cannon will remain unchanged the PIM will sport a brand new chassis, engine, transmission, suspension, steering system, and improved survivability to go along with an upgraded electric ramming system. The new 600-volt on-board power system is designed to accommodate emerging technologies and future requirements, as well as current requirements like the Battlefield Network. The on-board power system leverages technologies developed during the Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon (NLOS-C) program and ensures the PIM will have enough SWaP-C growth potential to last until 2050.
Has very little to do with putting steel on target
djones520 wrote: That article being from the DailyCaller... well yeah, hardly worth putting a lot of trust in, but I have heard from more reputable sources that these tunnels were not coming up to military targets. They were being found coming up into schools, housing areas, all civilian centers.
These were designed for one purpose and one purpose only, terror.
Or smuggling.
While from what I've seen many had use for stealing power and basic services from civilian areas. Phone, power, even cable. That and taking delivery of, say, construction materials in a civilian area is not going to draw a lot of scrutiny as long as some actual construction is going on.
Don;t get me wrong, an inserion point is an inserion point, but given the sizes of some of these tunnels, I'm gonna say that wasn't the primary intended use for all of them.
You can say, but from what has been discovered in those tunnels and where they were coming up just about anyone else would say you are wrong. Most would see them designed for rapid movement of large groups of terrorists and materials as well as smuggling.
GAZA — Wolf Blitzer, the host of CNN’s “The Situation Room” who is currently reporting from Jerusalem on the conflict between Israel and Hamas, was shot multiple times by unknown assailants during a live broadcast from supposed underground “terror tunnels” in the Gaza strip, sources confirmed.
“HAPPENING NOW, WE’RE TAKING YOU BELOW THE GAZA STRIP FOR AN EXCLUSIVE… LOOK INSIDE THE ‘TERROR TUNNELS’ USED BY HAMAS… MILITANTS,” said Blitzer — using his trademark dramatic pauses — to his viewers, most of whom are still unsure whether he’s yelling or just has a really loud voice.
On an exclusive tour roughly 45 feet below ground, Blitzer, accompanied by the Israeli military, revealed an elaborate tunnel network apparently used by Hamas militants so they could strike inside Israel.
“THIS IS TRULY SOPHISTICATED… UH TUNNELS. YOU GET THE SENSE THAT IT MUST HAVE TAKEN A LONG… TIME, TO BUILD,” Blitzer screamed, or said in his normal voice, depending on whether you had your television volume set to a normal setting or muted. “I THINK I… SEE SOME MOVEMENT UP AHEAD IN THE… UH TUNNEL.”
According to viewers watching the live report, CNN’s camera crew panned into the narrow corridor in front of Blitzer, revealing some movement in the passageway that had been revealed by an IDF soldier’s flashlight.
“IT DEFINITELY LOOKS LIKE THERE’S SOMETHING… UP AHEAD,” Blitzer said, then noting that the dark tunnel suddenly became extremely bright. “IT LOOKS LIKE… GUNFIRE. YES, HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, WE ARE BEING SHOT AT BY HAMAS… MILITANTS.”
A brief gun battle ensued, although CNN decided to cut to a commercial break before showing what came next, sources said.
“WELCOME BACK TO THE SITUATION ROOM, THIS IS WOLF BLITZER. BEFORE WE CONTINUE OUR TOUR OF THE HAMAS TUNNELS, WE’VE JUST RECEIVED BREAKING NEWS NOW, WE STILL ARE NOT SURE WHERE EXACTLY MALAYSIA FLIGHT… 370 WENT DOWN,” Blitzer said, before adding: “HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, I HAVE JUST BEEN SHOT BY… HAMAS MILITANTS.”
At press time, Blitzer had been shot again by Israeli soldiers while escaping back out of the tunnel roughly 900 meters from a kibbutz. The officer in charge insisted they were indeed targeting him.
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You can say, but from what has been discovered in those tunnels and where they were coming up just about anyone else would say you are wrong. Most would see them designed for rapid movement of large groups of terrorists and materials as well as smuggling.
I tend to agree with Baron in that I believe the primary purpose of the tunnels is smuggling, with a healthy dose of militant activity; not that the two can be clearly delineated. I say this because, were I running an enclave like Gaza, I would be giving out food and basic necessities like nobody's business; at least to supporters. Doing that gets people to come to your side willingly, saving your munitions for your real enemy.
You can say, but from what has been discovered in those tunnels and where they were coming up just about anyone else would say you are wrong. Most would see them designed for rapid movement of large groups of terrorists and materials as well as smuggling.
I tend to agree with Baron in that I believe the primary purpose of the tunnels is smuggling, with a healthy dose of militant activity; not that the two can be clearly delineated. I say this because, were I running an enclave like Gaza, I would be giving out food and basic necessities like nobody's business; at least to supporters. Doing that gets people to come to your side willingly, saving your munitions for your real enemy.
Basically Tammany Hall politics.
I tend to disagree with him on issues of terrorism for reasons he knows.
Jihadin wrote: Didn't notice the blur portions of the video?
There are a lot of blurred portions of the video. A lot of drones don't have great cameras to begin with, and the footage is heavily edited for a variety of reasons. I might have missed it, but I do not see the (very large) UN flag that's spread over the roof of every active UN facility in Gaza when the drone pans out.
So if this is indeed a UN facility that they're firing from, it's the abandoned one that we already know about.
Also, Jihadin, I'd re-read that last sentence that you quote on PIM and then think about it for a moment, since they're saying they're shoehorning electronics from NLOS-C into a Paladin frame as part of PIM, which was very much about putting steel on targets. It implies that it's more suited to firing Excalibur. However, this entire line of discussion is academic and largely irrelevant as the US has not yet sold Israel the A5+ or A6.
I stand corrected. Israel retaliated. A bit behind on the news
Yeah, they were very quick behind NIJ (who were hte ones that started the shooting, this time, not Hamas (though they were also quick to get in on the action).
Just my two cents:
Gaza is Muslim Terrorists vs Jewish Nazis with a whole lot of civvies caught in between. If they just slaughtered one another I could give less of a feth, but they're going to cause a LOT of collateral damage on the way out at this point.
Also, Jihadin, I'd re-read that last sentence that you quote on PIM and then think about it for a moment, since they're saying they're shoehorning electronics from NLOS-C into a Paladin frame as part of PIM, which was very much about putting steel on targets. It implies that it's more suited to firing Excalibur. However, this entire line of discussion is academic and largely irrelevant as the US has not yet sold Israel the A5+ or A6.
Now, come on. We know there are many ways that Israel, and other US allies, get weapons tech from the US without there being any embarrassing sales receipts.
Now, come on. We know there are many ways that Israel, and other US allies, get weapons tech from the US without there being any embarrassing sales receipts.
In the quantities they would need, it'd be very hard to do. They have a LOT of US made artillery to upgrade.
