One thing I will say, and this isn't giving anything away, is that this film is 100% not Avengers 2.5. Everyone bar Thor and Hulk may be in this film, but this movie is a Captain America film through and though. I was worried it would be a Cap film in name only, but it's not. It is the sequel to The Winter Soldier.
As someone who actually likes Agents of Shield, where's the tie-in point with Civil War again? IE do I have to force myself to endure the cinema before I can watch any more of the show, or is the break later between 19 and 20 or 20 and 21?
Yodhrin wrote: As someone who actually likes Agents of Shield, where's the tie-in point with Civil War again? IE do I have to force myself to endure the cinema before I can watch any more of the show, or is the break later between 19 and 20 or 20 and 21?
Well there's no tie in during the film, because the films never reference the TV show. There may be a reference in next week's AoS, or the week after, but I can't imagine it'll be much. I mean, the references between the show and Age of Ultron were pretty slim, so don't expect anything more than that.
It's more a case of Ike Permutter used to be in charge of everything Marvel, and he butted heads with Feige because Feige wants to make good movies and Permutter is the biggest penny-pinching a-hole in Hollywood.
Then Disney broke Marvel Studios off from Marvel proper, freeing Feige from Perlmutter. Marvel TV on the other hand remains under Permutter.
Yodhrin wrote: As someone who actually likes Agents of Shield, where's the tie-in point with Civil War again? IE do I have to force myself to endure the cinema before I can watch any more of the show, or is the break later between 19 and 20 or 20 and 21?
Well there's no tie in during the film, because the films never reference the TV show. There may be a reference in next week's AoS, or the week after, but I can't imagine it'll be much. I mean, the references between the show and Age of Ultron were pretty slim, so don't expect anything more than that.
And the reference with the previous Captain America was "HYDRA are part of SHIELD", which would have slightly affected my enjoyment of the film had I not gone to see it first
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's more a case of Ike Permutter used to be in charge of everything Marvel, and he butted heads with Feige because Feige wants to make good movies and Permutter is the biggest penny-pinching a-hole in Hollywood.
Then Disney broke Marvel Studios off from Marvel proper, freeing Feige from Perlmutter. Marvel TV on the other hand remains under Permutter.
Wait, but...Daredevil and Jessica Jones are amazing. How is that possible??
Netflix has a lot of autonomy, I imagine. I heard a theory from someone working in the film business that, for example, Daredevil season 2 for example legitimately used all the user data that Netflix has gathered to basically mathematically account for every plot point and beat for each episode.
Well that was really quite something... I was apprehensive going in, I thought it might be the samey filling in an awesome BvS/Apocalypse sandwich, and there was a lot that could go wrong...
None of it did! The Russos once again prove they can make a damn good movie, they handle a larger ensemble cast even better than Whedon did in Avengers Assemble, and keep the whole thing exceptionally tight. The fight choreography and visual direction was stunning, the writing was perfect and it somehow managed to be both the best Cap movie and the best Avengers movie...
Spidey was probably my biggest fear going in, and yet we get maaaaybe the best Spider-man yet... I need to see more of Tom Holland as Parker, but as Spidey he just nailed every line. Likewise, Boseman as Panther I thought might be somewhat superfluous, but he turned out to be a great addition, I'm a lot more keen on his solo movie now. Zemo was handled well, going forward I definitely want to see more of him... it's possible, unlike Strucker and the Red Skull who were ultimately a bit wasted.
Main cast were great as always, maybe RDJ's best Stark since the first time, great to see Ross back and I was glad Vision and Scarlet Witch got some more screen time after their less developed parts in AoU.
Yeah, I really can't fault it. There were a couple of things I'd like to have seen that didn't happen, but that's preference rather than criticism. Basically, go and see it, people!
I really enjoyed it. Torn on where to place it in the MCU order, its in my top three, just not sure if its two or one. Winter Soldier had its pacing near on perfect.
Also I had a couple of minor niggles with it from a comic fan point of view, nothing serious, MCU has portrayed all its heroes very well, but villains have been hit and miss in my mind.
Loved Spidey and T'Challa though, cannot wait to see their individual films.
Overall would recommend it to anyone, if you are a comic fan, you need to go see it asap.
So, I saw it today and well, yeah, it was an enjoyable enough, well made film.
I'll try to say some more non-spoiler-ey ness. The main characters overall were good, Black Panther really good, Spiderman, good (like him more than Andrew Garfield, kinda reminds me of a younger Tobey McGuire Spidey in some ways.). And I'm pretty sure I'm developing a film crush on Elizabeth Olsen...
The filmmakers really did nail their goal of, "Make it so that both sides have a good point."
But, hmm, well. I didn't enjoy it that much. Not enough to rave about it anyhow. I don't plan on paying to go to the cinema to see it a second time, for example. I also wouldn't buy the dvd, though I'll probably watch it again when it comes out on Sky Movies. But yeah, there's a profound lack of excitement I'm feeling relating to it.
But...
Spoiler:
Wow, did it feel tame. "Safe" would be another word I used for it. Seriously, it really did feel to me a bit less of a "Civil War" and more of a "Civil Squabble." The only real 'casualty' was the result of a friendly fire incident.
The fights kinda seemed to feel like they had a lack of, I dunno, crunchiness? When Scarlet Witch commented that Hawkeye was, "pulling his punches" - I couldn't help but think, "yeah, pretty much everyone is."
And the result of it all? Cap fights to keep Bucky in a confined location in Wakanda than in a confined location in a prison cell. Bleh.
Oh yeah and one other thing. The trailers pretty much super spoiled the whole film. "Hey, how come Cap, Bucky and Iron Man haven't had that 3-way fight yet? Oh, well, I guess they're going to have yet another fight and fall out yet again at the end of the game then."
Though that seems pretty harsh, it's probably more, well, meant to be blunt. I didn't dislike the film and I'm pretty darn certain that very few people will dislike it either. That doesn't mean that it particularly thrilled or excited me, though.
Well that sure was fun. Definitely a Captain America film but the ensemble was handled really well. There were quips, as it's a Marvel film, but only when appropriate.
Scott Lang fanboying over Cap was hilarious.
To be honest, you know what's going to happen in a Marvel films these days just going in. The beats are all pretty similar. Hopefully some phase 3 films can break that just to be different, but I don't mind at all.
I've read the plot for it, as I always do almost...and I still plan on seeing it Thursday night, but I'm not overly impressed with the concept or the lack of casualties. Civil Squabble sounds about right.
Spoiler:
At least in BvS Batman went out with no holds barred and was inches away from ending Superman. For all of that film's flaws there was at least a decent superhero fight.
Super excited for the new enthusiastic teenage Spiderman and I'm hoping he'll be the best one yet. Still wish Glover would get a shot at the role however.
Bought my tickets for Friday, pretty damn stoked. I know Marvel gets a lot of gak for going over the top and playing it safe with characters, but most of their movies have been pretty damn entertaining and I expect this will be the same. Based on the trailers, I'm already digging it.
Out of all of them, Iron Man 1, Winter Soldier, and Avengers 1 are probably my top three favorites.
I saw this on Sunday. Really, really good film. A few thoughts, some spoilers in tags:
The film has a stately pace. It moves at a measured speed from event to event, giving it an almost documentary-style feel of, not realism, but... gravity. That doesn't mean that it is a slow film, but it definitely doesn't move as fast as say Ant Man.
The jokes are frigging hilarious, even as they are relatively rare in the film.
The action sequences are bananas, and they all make the different characters appear interesting, varied, and dangerous. There is a real weight to the different heroes in the combats, and that makes for some very brutal exchanges.
The film focuses quite a lot on what we might call 'the consequences of superheroes'.
Despite having a truly immense cast list, the film never feels like it skimps on any one character's screen time. Even characters such as the Vision, who have a relatively minor part in the story, get enough time to have a touch of development.
Spiderman and Black Panther, the new comers, are both great. Really looking forward to seeing more of these guys.
The ending is very good: I'm desperate to see where the MCU goes from here.
A spoiler thought about the ending:
Spoiler:
My favourite part about the film, in many ways, is the fact that it doesn't fully resolve the storyline: at the end of the film, we have two distinct sides, ideologically split, and the definite impression given is that both sides are confident and firm in their choices. Team Iron Man remains as the public and state-sanctioned team, with Team Cap becoming this underground group (bad news for Antman/Hawkeye's children). I think that the choice to leave this open - to not have the split resolved in the space of one film - is really bold, and means that we will be dealing with the consequences of this film for a long time. I mean, Ant Man & The Wasp must surely touch upon this, and explain how his status as a fugitive hero impacts on him, as well as his membership in the 'secret Avengers'. It certainly makes for a really thought-provoking climax, and helps to add to the overall gravity of the film.
The inevitable Batman Versus Superman spoiler thought:
Spoiler:
This film, despite having a similar idea, is really not that similar a film to BvS, I thought. The tone is different, the feel is different, the plot elements are different. Nevertheless, the comparison is an interesting one to draw! I really did like BvS, but I also think that it had these huge, immense problems - the pacing, the editing, Lex - and it was interesting to me that as I walked out of the two films my thoughts were so different. As I walked out of BvS, I thought about how oddly uneven it was, and how my love of certain elements was united with my dislike of other elements; as I walked out of Civil War, I thought about how impressive it was, how weighty it had seemed. Between the two, I would say that Civil War is definitely the superior film, and that claims of 'Marvel films are just joke-filled fluff films, not like grimdark serious DC films' are especially flimsy in this comparison. However, I think that both do very interesting things, and that we should be thankful for getting them in the same year! I'm also looking forward to getting to see BvS and its 15 hour director's cut, which might hopefully make this comparison even more interesting.
You're right. It is very different to BvS. For one thing, it's coherent. For another, the motivations for characters actually make sense and/or exist. And they don't fight a Cave Troll at the end.
Mostly mirroring all the comments above. My small complaints would be;
Spoiler:
how little Vision seems to do in the big fight. Like he's shown to be INCREDIBLY powerful, but he only acts a few times, and no one really comes at him/touches him during it.
Was also mildly annoyed at Panther's hypocrisy. "These heroes need to sign this big accord and be kept in check with someone to watch over them and holy crap that terrorist just killed my dad I'm going to put on a costume and go vigilante and murder him and don't you try to stop me".
AduroT wrote: Mostly mirroring all the comments above. My small complaints would be;
Spoiler:
how little Vision seems to do in the big fight. Like he's shown to be INCREDIBLY powerful, but he only acts a few times, and no one really comes at him/touches him during it.
That is kind of the point, I think.
Spoiler:
Stark calls in Vision on the assumption that him showing up will force Cap's team into surrender just by being there, because he could potentially shut them all down in an instant if he didn't pull his punches, but to actually let him do that would be exceptionally hypocritical. If I recall, the only things Vision does in that fight are knock down Giant Man and friendly fire on Rhodey while trying to take down Falcon, because if he had actually cut lose Stark would basically have won the fight but lost the argument completely.
The plot is a bit weak or over convoluted, but I'll let it slide because I feel that they got the characters right. And there were a lot of characters to get right! I felt they hit the right notes with all of them and managed to have them all be distinct and cool.
Very strong effort. Better than the original comic I think. I want more Spiderman, it was fantastic to see him with the others, I was so excited by that. Black Panther was cool enough and not as cheesy as I feared. Ant Man was great in this, my girlfriend hadn't seen his movie and he was her favourite.
One gripe is the amount of shakey cam. I want to actually see what's happening in a fight guys, not get motion sickness.
I really liked it, and in hindsight, I was impressed with how it juggled so many characters while introducing one and a half new ones (half because everyone knows the basics of Spider-Man by now), and I didn't feel like anyone was short-changed. I also liked the change of pace for the antagonist.
Spoiler:
And how he's just a normal guy who commits some acts of mundane terrorism and finds out some information. No super-powered minions out of nowhere, no last minute power up for the sake of having a supervillain.
Though I have to ask, did anyone else familiar with the comics wonder if.....
Spoiler:
....we were going to get the Thunderbolts when we found out about Zemo's apparent plan to enlist the Soviet super-soldiers?
That hadn't actually crossed my mind... Though the Thunderbolts are second only to Moon Knight and Spider Woman on my list of Marvel characters I want to see on screen, I don't think we'll see them now.
Spoiler:
This Zemo doesn't seem much like the comic version at all, so I don't think he'd work in the Tbolts incarnation... of course, they could always do the team without him, but then they might as well do Dark Avengers, which so long as they also did Osborne properly would be equally awesome, and is on the cards now they have the necessary characters back.
I just saw it. I don't have many positive things to say about, but I'll list them first.
Characters are, as usual, well acted
Dialogue is pretty solid.
The few quips that occurred were great.
The action scenes were fun, and some particularly brutal. Not sure if I'd say they've managed to match the Avengers NYC fight scene yet, but they're still not bad.
Spoiler:
Not having a super powered antagonist was a good move.
Aside from that...it dragged on and on and felt bloated down with too many characters.
Spoiler:
Spidey stole the show from me and I respect Panther's regal demeanor, but man was he boring... Ant-Man and Hawkeye felt like they were thrown in at the last moment to even out the teams.
Really, the entire premise of the film was flawed from the beginning.
Spoiler:
How exactly are the Avengers a legit threat to world peace or security?
Iron Man and War Machine rely entirely on tech to do anything. Confiscate that and they're pretty much a non-threat. Stark's overactive brain and ego are, if anything, the only real global threat he has, e.g. building Ultron.
Vision seems like the biggest threat, but the public wouldn't be aware of that because ASFAIK he hasn't been personally involved in any incidents outside of Sokovia.
Wanda feels like another major threat and possibly the most credible. I don't see how she could be properly contained except by Vision/Thor/Dr. Strange or the intricate device they had around her neck.
Captain America is just a super buff guy with some basic espionage skills and a bad ass shield. Any half decent sniper could take his head off. He survives purely on character armor.
The same is true for Falcon (all tech), Hawkeye (woohoo he has a bow), and Black Widow. There's really no one out there (Spetsnaz, SAS, Delta Force, Seals, etc?) that could take them down? Did this entire universe just go full idiot and forget about things like gassing them, snipers, sabotage, etc???
I honestly think BvS handled everything Civil War tried to do better, except for the horrific ass pull of a Cave Troll at the end.
Spoiler:
Superman is nigh unkillable, even by a bloody nuke and who is willing to risk that collateral damage? The only Avengers potentially comparable are Thor and the Hulk, but neither even appeared in the film. There's a good reason to be worried about some guy who just showed those of his race can level an entire city pretty much effortlessly.
Batman had good reason to want to take down Superman and his beliefs were only enforced by the events leading up to the big fight. Luthor also had his reasons and I didn't see a terrible flaw in his line of, albeit crazy, thinking.
The film was solid for me, especially the viciousness of the fight scenes, until the completely unnecessary resurrection of Zod as Doomsday.
Long story short. I am extremely disappointed by this film to the point where I am reconsidering going to see Dr. Strange. I'd rate BvS as being slightly better than Civil War, but neither is a great film by any means. BvS has the edge for me due to a more credible global threat, the best Batman yet, and much better fight scenes (strictly imo).
Marvel's films continue to be popcorn cash grabs. I think GotG, Iron Man, Ant Man, maybe the Avengers and the Winter Soldier are the only ones I'd actually watch again.
I think you missed part of the point It wasn't about a global threat. It was about countries feeling powers when their sovereignty is bypassed at will. It was about their citizens getting caught up in wars that weren't theis and dying without any cooperation or planning.
Overall I really enjoyed it. And unlike bvs it wasn't a mess of coherencey issues.
Much more serious and thoughtful than anything DC have done recently inlcuding Bat vs Sups - which whilst it had its moments was a total mess in terms of plots - terrible central character _ Loopy Lex.
Even Spiderman - whe normally I can't stand was well done and introduced, not someone I would go to watch on his own but ok in a film.
Good:
Excellent character work, the moments of seriouness were enhanced by the flashes of humour - which all the best creators realise.
Good Villian - now if DC had their Loopy Lex like this they might have a better film.
Black Panther - again really well done
The fact that it did not really resolve the two view points and explored some intersting issues.
It was again a film where the world is involved. Whereas DC is centered apparently only in the US - the UN are an important element and the film goes to the heart of what happens when you have such powerful people acting as they choose....
Spoiler:
How exactly are the Avengers a legit threat to world peace or security? Because they operate as a quasi-military force which ignores all borders and oversight, they could destroy whole cities on a whim if they so choose. What government could allow this to go unchallenged
Iron Man and War Machine rely entirely on tech to do anything. Confiscate that and they're pretty much a non-threat. Stark's overactive brain and ego are, if anything, the only real global threat he has, e.g. building Ultron. So there you are - he proved to be a global threat - whatmore do you need to ask?
Vision seems like the biggest threat, but the public wouldn't be aware of that because ASFAIK he hasn't been personally involved in any incidents outside of Sokovia. You mean where a city got dropped out of the air - that Sukovia - thats why the accords are named after it! Vision is imensley powerful and the governments and their military will be aware of him and thats who is going to push for this.
Wanda feels like another major threat and possibly the most credible. I don't see how she could be properly contained except by Vision/Thor/Dr. Strange or the intricate device they had around her neck. Really - well she is a powerful telekentic in theis version - Thor, Hulk and Vsion are likely more powerful - especially since we know Vision is not going to fight Wanda...........
Captain America is just a super buff guy with some basic espionage skills and a bad ass shield. Any half decent sniper could take his head off. He survives purely on character armor. Well Duh - and Batman does not survive on character armour - jeesh
The same is true for Falcon (all tech), Hawkeye (woohoo he has a bow), and Black Widow. There's really no one out there (Spetsnaz, SAS, Delta Force, Seals, etc?) that could take them down? Did this entire universe just go full idiot and forget about things like gassing them, snipers, sabotage, etc???
See above........
Bad
Why they had to use Shaky cam fight footage I don't know - really annoying
Whilst entertaining the airport fight was a bit like most of the Bat vs Sups film - just fuilfilling the tag line of the film - nice pay off with war machine though
No Pepper or walk ons for signifcant others :(
Iron Man and War Machine rely entirely on tech to do anything. Confiscate that and they're pretty much a non-threat. Stark's overactive brain and ego are, if anything, the only real global threat he has, e.g. building Ultron.
The same is true for Falcon (all tech), Hawkeye (woohoo he has a bow), and Black Widow. There's really no one out there (Spetsnaz, SAS, Delta Force, Seals, etc?) that could take them down? Did this entire universe just go full idiot and forget about things like gassing them, snipers, [i]sabotage, etc???[/i]
Spoiler:
Did you miss Iron man 2? Because confiscating his armour was the entire point of Iron Man 2. It didn't happen because legally they couldn't take his property. Even Rhodey 'taking' the mark 2 was Tony essentially giving it to him because he thought he was going to die. He put up a fight because his ego wouldn't let him just hand it over.
Regarding the final point. Did you watch the film? I know you saw it, but did you pay attention? Because sabotage was the entire plot of Civil War. Not sabotage with a bomb, but sabotage through misdirection to make them tear themselves apart.
Not saying there isn't a healthy amount of plot armour. Superhero stuff relies on it. As you say, a decent sniper could end a lot of this. It's part of the suspension of disbeleif you have when you go into watching a superhero film.
Iron Man and War Machine rely entirely on tech to do anything. Confiscate that and they're pretty much a non-threat. Stark's overactive brain and ego are, if anything, the only real global threat he has, e.g. building Ultron.
The same is true for Falcon (all tech), Hawkeye (woohoo he has a bow), and Black Widow. There's really no one out there (Spetsnaz, SAS, Delta Force, Seals, etc?) that could take them down? Did this entire universe just go full idiot and forget about things like gassing them, snipers, [i]sabotage, etc???[/i]
Spoiler:
Did you miss Iron man 2? Because confiscating his armour was the entire point of Iron Man 2. It didn't happen because legally they couldn't take his property. Even Rhodey 'taking' the mark 2 was Tony essentially giving it to him because he thought he was going to die. He put up a fight because his ego wouldn't let him just hand it over.
Regarding the final point. Did you watch the film? I know you saw it, but did you pay attention? Because sabotage was the entire plot of Civil War. Not sabotage with a bomb, but sabotage through misdirection to make them tear themselves apart.
Not saying there isn't a healthy amount of plot armour. Superhero stuff relies on it. As you say, a decent sniper could end a lot of this. It's part of the suspension of disbeleif you have when you go into watching a superhero film.
Spoiler:
I've seen every Marvel film except the new Thor. My point is just that there are so many ways to take down the Avengers that they don't seem a credible threat on any level (outside of Thor/Hulk being virtually unstoppable). Whereas the only weaknesses Superman has are to kryptonite (used effectively in BvS) and magic (yet to be shown in the DC extended universe). Also, the whole superheroes should be regulated plotline has been done to death already...it was touched on in Watchmen, Iron Man 2, The Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron, BvS, etc. I really don't understand the Marvel fan wankery over this film. It really felt like every other Marvel film other. The film had interesting aspects, but I felt like the whole regulation angle could have just been dropped and that the focus of the film should've been entirely on Iron Man v Captain over the fate of Bucky. Everything else was unnecessary fluff. Yeah, Black Panther and Spidey were well done, but they still felt tacked on.
Iron Man and War Machine rely entirely on tech to do anything. Confiscate that and they're pretty much a non-threat. Stark's overactive brain and ego are, if anything, the only real global threat he has, e.g. building Ultron.
The same is true for Falcon (all tech), Hawkeye (woohoo he has a bow), and Black Widow. There's really no one out there (Spetsnaz, SAS, Delta Force, Seals, etc?) that could take them down? Did this entire universe just go full idiot and forget about things like gassing them, snipers, [i]sabotage, etc???[/i]
Spoiler:
Did you miss Iron man 2? Because confiscating his armour was the entire point of Iron Man 2. It didn't happen because legally they couldn't take his property. Even Rhodey 'taking' the mark 2 was Tony essentially giving it to him because he thought he was going to die. He put up a fight because his ego wouldn't let him just hand it over.
Regarding the final point. Did you watch the film? I know you saw it, but did you pay attention? Because sabotage was the entire plot of Civil War. Not sabotage with a bomb, but sabotage through misdirection to make them tear themselves apart.
Not saying there isn't a healthy amount of plot armour. Superhero stuff relies on it. As you say, a decent sniper could end a lot of this. It's part of the suspension of disbeleif you have when you go into watching a superhero film.
Spoiler:
I've seen every Marvel film except the new Thor. My point is just that there are so many ways to take down the Avengers that they don't seem a credible threat on any level (outside of Thor/Hulk being virtually unstoppable). Whereas the only weaknesses Superman has are to kryptonite (used effectively in BvS) and magic (yet to be shown in the DC extended universe). Also, the whole superheroes should be regulated plotline has been done to death already...it was touched on in Watchmen, Iron Man 2, The Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron, BvS, etc. I really don't understand the Marvel fan wankery over this film. It really felt like every other Marvel film other. The film had interesting aspects, but I felt like the whole regulation angle could have just been dropped and that the focus of the film should've been entirely on Iron Man v Captain over the fate of Bucky. Everything else was unnecessary fluff. Yeah, Black Panther and Spidey were well done, but they still felt tacked on.
I just...what? I assume you know that Captain America: Civil War is actually based on the story arc of Civil War, right? The Whole Regulation Thing is the whole flippin' point and isn't something you can just ''drop'' and still call the movie Civil War. You could argue the story lines are different but it's readily apparent they tried to stay true to the source material because there are many shots in the movie that are lifted directly from page to screen.
And I simply don't understand what you are on about with threat levels. It's not about if the avengers could be a threat to the world, it's about do the Avengers have a place in the world under the govenment because letting this group of free agents travel the world across all boarders to interfere where ever they deem fit with no way for anyone to reprimand them simply isn't an option. They either had to be dispanded or leashed, the one of the central conflicts being Cap doesn't like the feel of the choker.
I honestly couldn't care less about how true a comic book flick is to it's supposed source material outside of characterization. The only comics I've ever bothered to read are V for Vendetta, The Killing Joke, Watchmen, From Hell, and maybe a couple other Batman bits. I am not a comic book fan. If anything I'm highly critical of most of the raging absurdity that occurs in the medium.
I enjoy comic book films because usually they're not nearly as silly or just absurd as their print counterparts.
Spoiler:
It's really simple, if the Avengers are a problem, take them out. Who in their right mind would tolerate such an organization to begin with? Only 2 (maybe 4) of them are actually useful against the real big bad (Thanos) anyways. There's really no reason for them to fight and the entire conflict felt forced. Yeah, Iron Man and Captain are gonna beat each other half to death over Bucky. Really? Did Iron Man swallow a thousand idiot balls when he decided to continue going after Bucky simply because the poor guy was brainwashed into attacking his parents...let alone the fact he knew that Zemo wanted him to do so... I mean FFS, he knowingly played into the villain's hands in a much more ridiculous degree than either Batman or Superman did in BvS, but this board is slamming that movie.
The entire movie is riddled with plotholes, forced character intros, pointless character appearances, and just a general lack of consideration for common sense. I mean, god, looking back at it everything was so fething forced...from the very beginning. I could rant about it, but no one would care so there's no point.
Why do people continually insist that fictional characters with a fixed POV adhere to the logic of an outside viewer who is innately privy to information said character is denied?
d-usa wrote:If you want a reality based movie based on plausible issues, then a superhero movie might be the wrong place to start with that...
Funny, Unbreakable, the X-Men movies (particularly First Class and Days of Future Past), Watchmen, and BvS all managed to handle reality a heck of a lot better than the MCU. Sorry that I'm not an MCU fanboy that ignores their shortcomings!
LordofHats wrote:Why do people continually insist that fictional characters with a fixed POV adhere to the logic of an outside viewer who is innately privy to information said character is denied?
Spoiler:
Yeah, because Iron Man doesn't already know Bucky is constantly brainwashed and Zemo isn't standing right there in front of him obviously baiting him into the fight.
That doesn't even begin to touch on the various plot holes in the film.
Spoiler:
Why have the Avengers been allowed such leniency for so long? Because they're heroes? You'd think the NYC event would've been enough to cause a ruckus, let alone the events of Iron Man 2/3, The Winter Soldier, Thor (I guess this was swept under the rug mostly).
Why doesn't the UN suspect Zemo isn't the shrink when they're expecting an older, heavyset guy to show up and instead get a young, slender man?
How convenient of the seclusive Wakandans to be right in the middle of a firefight at the start of the flick.
Yeah, an uber advanced civilization in the dark heart of Africa is remotely believable to begin with...hint: the lack of waterways in Africa are the primary reason they lagged behind the rest of the world in technological advancement. I won't comment on their society or cultures, but in many ways I feel as though tribal societies that are primarily pacifistic are superior to European cultures.
Why is no one worried that the bastard lovechild of Ultron known as Vision is running amok? And god forbid they question the fancy stone in his fething head.
Why can Spidey stop a damn speeding car, but can't take a punch from Captain...even though earlier in that scene he handled BOTH Falcon and Bucky pretty easily.
Why are Ant-Man and Spidey even brought into the fight at all? Teams would've been even without them. Heck, you could even drop the Wakandan subplot and remove Black Panther and Hawkeye from the midst and still keep them even while tightening up the script.
Oh...wait...it's because they had to generate hype for the future movies.
That's all it is at this point. MCU is a behemoth with no end in sight telling mediocre stories with two dimensional character constantly expanding the plotlines to infinity and beyond to generate hype for future movies with no real payoff.
Have they honestly released a film yet that wasn't open ended?
Yeah, because Iron Man doesn't already know Bucky is constantly brainwashed and Zemo isn't standing right there in front of him obviously baiting him into the fight.
You and I know that. This is a superhero movie, and this is part and parcel for the genre.
Spoiler:
Why have the Avengers been allowed such leniency for so long? Because they're heroes? You'd think the NYC event would've been enough to cause a ruckus, let alone the events of Iron Man 2/3, The Winter Soldier, Thor (I guess this was swept under the rug mostly).
This was covered in Winter Soldier, and a major theme in Age of Ultron and Civil War. You might as well apply this to the entire comic book super hero thing period. Obviously, this is a world where people have governments that let guys in fancy underwear run around (ignoring that every Marvel film has at this point at least one token character who questions why these guys/gals are allowed to run around lamp shading the entire question).
Spoiler:
Why doesn't the UN suspect Zemo isn't the shrink when they're expecting an older, heavyset guy to show up and instead get a young, slender man?
Movie logic.
Spoiler:
How convenient of the seclusive Wakandans to be right in the middle of a firefight at the start of the flick.
95% of all fiction runs on some level of coincidence, in part because life itself is nothing but one giant coincidence. Coincidence isn't really an issue in any story line. Contrived coincidence on the other hand is, but as aptly pointed out they are in Africa. Nothing contrived about a firefight in Africa.
Spoiler:
Yeah, an uber advanced civilization in the dark heart of Africa is remotely believable to begin with...hint: the lack of waterways in Africa are the primary reason they lagged behind the rest of the world in technological advancement. I won't comment on their society or cultures, but in many ways I feel as though tribal societies that are primarily pacifistic are superior to European cultures.
This is a series containing a super human, a guy with improbable skills at shooting arrows, a suit of armor that violates the law of thermodynamics, a man who turns into a giant green monster because he's angry, and a Norse God who is an alien, and this is where you draw the line?
Also;
Spoiler:
Africa is filled to the Brim with rivers. Nile. Congo. Niger? Africa was host to a number of advanced civilizations before European colonization including ancient Egypt, the Sokoto Caliphate, Aksum, Ethiopia, Buganda, and the Kingdom of Ashanti, just to name a few. European Slave tradining and colonization put the stopper on Africa's progress as a region. Prior to that epowers rose and fell just like anywhere else, and for most of history were comparable to major civilizations elsewhere up until the Age of Discovery. Hypothetically speaking, an African country possessing a monopoly on unobtainium could easily become a world power ignoring that this is a movie and a powerful state in Africa isn't even remotely the most absurd thing in it.
Spoiler:
Why is no one worried that the bastard lovechild of Ultron known as Vision is running amok? And god forbid they question the fancy stone in his fething head.
This was covered in a previous film.
Spoiler:
Oh...wait...it's because they had to generate hype for the future movies.
That's the MCU for you. Also, Black Panther is underrated, and OMG SPIDER-MAN!
Meh, I agree Spidey and Black Panther were probably the best part of the film. I agree with your most of your points, I just wish comic book movies...could rise above their source material and really say something. It's sad when a deconstruction is the best piece in the genre.
And of course, who doesn't love seeing ScarJo kick ass? I'm just glad that she and Wanda get their due while not being reduced to overt sex symbols like Suicide Squad is doing to to the very scantily clad enchantress.
It's not a bad movie, easily a solid 7/10, but it's not great either. I think the MCU has offered up much better films, even recently (GotG and Ant-man come to mind), but pulled their punches with this one. It was mediocre enough that I'll most likely wait for Dr. Strange to come out on DVD before seeing it and I was incredibly hyped for that movie.
I do think Homecoming will be great though. Spidey is finally on point. It might even surpass Spider-Man 2.
Spoiler:
Cap killing Iron Man during that fight scene would've been a good twist and given his character something to really dwell on.
Edit: This is OT, but on Africa
Spoiler:
It lacks the waterways in comparison to Europe both in regards to major rivers per land and in the sense Europe is a peninsula and has thrived thanks to the Med...I can never spell that right...not even gonna try. Same reason North Africa, particularly Egypt developed so quickly early in history, as well as the Middle East with access to the Arabian Sea, Euphrates, and Tigris. Really though, the developmental rates of countries is best left to another thread.
and BvS all managed to handle reality a heck of a lot better than the MCU.
Thats hilarious, BvS had some good stuff - mainly Wonder Woman but handling reality - nope, and so no - so law enforcement is happy about a guy runing round the city branding people, using chain guns in public areas - yeah thats reality.............there was no police repsonse to the latter - sriously? They probably would have got the militaty involved. II think you are missing the whole point that Superhero films are not reality..................Oh yeah BvS apparently all the areas they fight in are totally empty - yeah right.
Obviously there is only one "fanboy" in this discussion and it ain't about Marvel.
Spoiler:
Did Iron Man swallow a thousand idiot balls when he decided to continue going after Bucky simply because the poor guy was brainwashed into attacking his parents...let alone the fact he knew that Zemo wanted him to do so.
Jeez did you even watch that scene - or understand something called motivation - he had just watched the guy murder both his parents in cold blood whilst they were pleading for their lives. Anyone on this forum going to take that in a calm and collected manner whilst you are wearing a suit of powered armour and say -"Oh no worries dude I think you were brainwashed so its all good." Then he finds out that Cap knew all this and betrayal adds more emotions.....
He says it himself - "i don't care, he killed my mom" Anyone not understand that????
Bats vs Sups is slammed because its plot, such as it is, makes zero sense alongside the dire casting and directing that led to Loopy Lex trying to ruin the film.....................It is also much much small scale - the world does not take action - a few US Government officials do - the film ignores everywhere that is not America - whereas the Marvel is all about the UN............
Civil War has its faults - the contrived fight scene at the airport - fun but not really needed
- but its so much better than BvS.
The sad thing is BvS could have been a great movie - if they were not so focussed on making an excuse to have that fight and Lex had been portrayed as an actual character not a wanabee Joker. We had both sides of the argument discussed in Civil War with no clear indication which was right.
In BvS we had a the possibility of Superman being cross examined and him able to express why he acted, and be questioned on should he do it. Instead we had another yet another part of the Loopy Lex storyline ruin it.............Storyline wasted, film sadly diminished because of it.
d-usa wrote:If you want a reality based movie based on plausible issues, then a superhero movie might be the wrong place to start with that...
Funny, Unbreakable, the X-Men movies (particularly First Class and Days of Future Past), Watchmen, and BvS all managed to handle reality a heck of a lot better than the MCU. Sorry that I'm not an MCU fanboy that ignores their shortcomings!
LordofHats wrote:Why do people continually insist that fictional characters with a fixed POV adhere to the logic of an outside viewer who is innately privy to information said character is denied?
Spoiler:
Yeah, because Iron Man doesn't already know Bucky is constantly brainwashed and Zemo isn't standing right there in front of him obviously baiting him into the fight.
That doesn't even begin to touch on the various plot holes in the film.
Spoiler:
Why have the Avengers been allowed such leniency for so long? Because they're heroes? You'd think the NYC event would've been enough to cause a ruckus, let alone the events of Iron Man 2/3, The Winter Soldier, Thor (I guess this was swept under the rug mostly).
Why doesn't the UN suspect Zemo isn't the shrink when they're expecting an older, heavyset guy to show up and instead get a young, slender man?
How convenient of the seclusive Wakandans to be right in the middle of a firefight at the start of the flick.
Yeah, an uber advanced civilization in the dark heart of Africa is remotely believable to begin with...hint: the lack of waterways in Africa are the primary reason they lagged behind the rest of the world in technological advancement. I won't comment on their society or cultures, but in many ways I feel as though tribal societies that are primarily pacifistic are superior to European cultures.
Why is no one worried that the bastard lovechild of Ultron known as Vision is running amok? And god forbid they question the fancy stone in his fething head.
Why can Spidey stop a damn speeding car, but can't take a punch from Captain...even though earlier in that scene he handled BOTH Falcon and Bucky pretty easily.
Why are Ant-Man and Spidey even brought into the fight at all? Teams would've been even without them. Heck, you could even drop the Wakandan subplot and remove Black Panther and Hawkeye from the midst and still keep them even while tightening up the script.
Oh...wait...it's because they had to generate hype for the future movies.
That's all it is at this point. MCU is a behemoth with no end in sight telling mediocre stories with two dimensional character constantly expanding the plotlines to infinity and beyond to generate hype for future movies with no real payoff.
Have they honestly released a film yet that wasn't open ended?
Spoiler:
Lets see you watch a five minute clip about your parents being murdered viciously, and the guy who choked your mom to death and bludgeoned your fathers head into a pancake is standing right next to you. Oh, but he was brainwashed? Oh, that's gonna make you feel different and not attack him. Your best friend KNEW he did this, but didn't tell you? Yeah, he tried to spare your feelings, he's still a good guy! Hell no. You're not going to be in your right mind.
The MCU is about being HUMAN. You should try understanding that, Trex. Because your posts make it VERY clear that you don't. Even if you claim to "get it", you clearly do not.
Lets see you watch a five minute clip about your parents being murdered viciously, and the guy who choked your mom to death and bludgeoned your fathers head into a pancake is standing right next to you. Oh, but he was brainwashed? Oh, that's gonna make you feel different and not attack him. Your best friend KNEW he did this, but didn't tell you? Yeah, he tried to spare your feelings, he's still a good guy! Hell no. You're not going to be in your right mind.
The MCU is about being HUMAN. You should try understanding that, Trex. Because your posts make it VERY clear that you don't. Even if you claim to "get it", you clearly do not.
This - so much this................
And of course Batman coped so well after seeing his parents murdered and has nicely moved on decades later - oh wait........guess that's different though....
Just watched it, and don't really have complaints about the plot. I really liked the plot, actually, you could support both sides of the Avengers. A few minor issues generally speaking, but they're very minor and the suspension of disbelief stifles them.
Spoiler:
Also, I thought Cpt. America knew Stark's parents were murdered, but didn't know Bucky did it? Stark asked him if he knew, and Cpt. said he didn't know it was him, but admitted to knowing they were murdered.
It doesn't change the fact that Iron Man had a good reason to be mad. Brainwashed or not, he was standing next to the person who brutally murdered his parents.
Mad yes, but how is it remotely acceptable for him to attack and attempt to kill Bucky? And why exactly is the IRL situation of a soldier pushing a rapist lambasted as being wrong and unjustified, but somehow Stark attempting TO MURDER a victim of brainwashing is justified? Talk about hypocrisy sheesh.
BvS and Civil War
Spoiler:
Of course Superman is pretty much a USA only issue. Let's see, 1) Superman is an American citizen, 2) The only major crisis event we know of in universe is the fight over Metropolis, 3) The only intrusion onto foreign soil we know of is the African incident, which led to the US government immediately going after him.
Meanwhile, Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Black Widow are not Americans and there's the question as to what nationality, if any, Vision would be classified. After Sokovia, the UN is naturally going to get involved and there have been multiple incidents occurring with Avengers on foreign soil, dating back to WW2.
Apples and Oranges.
Also, the whole I didn't like BvS because Lex wasn't like Lex in the comics is such a trite argument. We get it, you're a raging comic book fan. Neither I or any of my friends were remotely bothered by his portrayal, in fact we actually liked it. Then again, we're not enslaved to a need for source material to be 100% faithfully adapted. Case in point: I love the Watchmen and V for Vendetta, but I enjoyed both film adaptations greatly, partly because both made some positive changes (particularly the end of Watchmen) that were not 100% faithful to the source material.
Edit: But enough with derailing this thread.
I found the movie mediocre and a waste of $10. Would not see again. I said my piece.
Is Superman actually a US citizen though? After all, " we found this child lying in a field, no identification, and we're gonna keep him" doesn't count as legal adoption. Where are his birth papers? He's not a stray dog that can just be adopted. He is only a US citizen if his papers were forged. So he's not legally a citizen.
Mad yes, but how is it remotely acceptable for him to attack and attempt to kill Bucky? And why exactly is the IRL situation of a soldier pushing a rapist lambasted as being wrong and unjustified, but somehow Stark attempting TO MURDER a victim of brainwashing is justified? Talk about hypocrisy sheesh.
BvS and Civil War
Spoiler:
Of course Superman is pretty much a USA only issue. Let's see, 1) Superman is an American citizen, 2) The only major crisis event we know of in universe is the fight over Metropolis, 3) The only intrusion onto foreign soil we know of is the African incident, which led to the US government immediately going after him.
Meanwhile, Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Black Widow are not Americans and there's the question as to what nationality, if any, Vision would be classified. After Sokovia, the UN is naturally going to get involved and there have been multiple incidents occurring with Avengers on foreign soil, dating back to WW2.
Apples and Oranges.
Also, the whole I didn't like BvS because Lex wasn't like Lex in the comics is such a trite argument. We get it, you're a raging comic book fan. Neither I or any of my friends were remotely bothered by his portrayal, in fact we actually liked it. Then again, we're not enslaved to a need for source material to be 100% faithfully adapted. Case in point: I love the Watchmen and V for Vendetta, but I enjoyed both film adaptations greatly, partly because both made some positive changes (particularly the end of Watchmen) that were not 100% faithful to the source material.
Edit: But enough with derailing this thread.
I found the movie mediocre and a waste of $10. Would not see again. I said my piece.
You might recall that the alien invasion in Man of Steel affected the entire world - or did that bit escape you. Also the WHOLE POINT of the Skovia accords was to stop the Avengers intefering with events at will and ignoring all nationla boundries - you know LIKE Superman! Its the same issue - except one film actually explores the issue - the other starts it and then has Lex blow everything up for no real reason (like the whole of his part in the movie) - its badly written and wastes so much potential to have a serious element to the film - which in contrast Avengers does.
Superman is a danger to the world - yes or no? Apples and Apples
I never said Lex was poor because he is not like the comics - I have no idea what he is like in the comics as i don't read them - I (and my friends - yeah I have friends too - do I get a badge?) found him so very poor in BvS because he was a nervy, whiny Joker wannabe - full stop . Its nothing to do with comic portrayal - its the fact that so much of the film was wasted on such a character.
I too prefer the watchman film much more than the comics, can't stand V for Vendeta even with Natalie Portman.
I don't why you have to constantly say that Marvel only makes "porpcorn films" and DC majkes somehow "serious" films when neither is true.
I have no idea what you are going on about with soliders and rape and how that relates to Stark?
Spoiler:
Seriously - put yourself in his place - you watch a man brutally kill your mom and dad , he is standing next to you - has never shown any remorse for nay of his actions and you are in a suit of super powered armour - what they hell would you do - shake his hand?? What would Batman have done if you want to go there........................ we never said it was right - try and actually read what people are saying it would help - we understood why he would do it - its a humna thing to do
Jeesh - do you seriously not get that? Really - whats wrong with you? .
Loved it. They did a great job and I loved the arc of Black Panther. The dialog, action scenes, and plot were first rate. All the characters were well developed and it was full of fun and drama.
It's crazy, but I grew up on mostly DC comics (Spider-Man was the main exception), but the MCU has been knocking it out the park. I have loved all the Captain America movies and the Russo brothers are awesome.
P.S. The new Spider-Man was so great. They captured him perfectly.
Just saw the movie today. I really enjoyed it and may in fact go see it again.
Spoiler:
The story felt similar to BvS, although I enjoyed this movie more. Having a villain doing something other than just trying to attack the Avengers directly was a refreshing change from previous movies.
My favorite scene (probably most people's favorite as well) was definitely the airport fight, especially with Spider Man talking his head off the entire time.
Yeah, having seen this and BvS I come out firmly on the side of this being a much better film. It holds together much more consistently, the reasons for the fighting make sense. The lack of actual killing or even serious injury of any of the heroes is in tune with the idea, which is pointed out, that everyone is pulling punches.
The only non-pulled punches is when panther is fighting cap or bucky and the iron man/cap/buckey fight at the end. And even then only Iron Man was going full out. Cap was never going to kill Stark.
It just flowed and felt good. Villain using the team against itself being a normal human (granted fairly high order given his past) but still human was great.
I enjoyed BvS when I was in the theatre and only came to dislike when I took a second to reflect on it. I enjoyed this more than BvS in the theatre (granted a big part of that is I really love most of the Avenger cast which they hit on the head) but unlike BvS when I got out of the theatre and thought about it I didn't get annoyed and nothing stood out as terribly out of place unlike thinking of why Lex wanted the BvS fight to happen.
Plus the unresolved issues are pretty great for story telling. Even if the fight portion is mostly resolved with Stark the actual law portion isn't. They didn't just wrap up the animosity like they did in BvS.
Cap killing Iron Man during that fight scene would've been a good twist and given his character something to really dwell on.
Why would this be good? Cap's the Paragon character, he's not going to murder people in cold blood. Especially when he feels partially responsible for the situation.
Spoiler:
Let's put it this way- Cap killing Iron Man would be worse than the Superman-neck-snapping-Zod from Man of Steel. In both cases you have the guy seen as the "Paragon" option in their settings killing a mostly helpless target. However, Zod was a villain, who was using his remaining efforts to threaten civilians. Iron Man was a (mostly) heroic character, and personal friend of the Captains, who was only trying to kill the guy who murdered his parents. Having Cap take the high road and simply disable Iron Mans suit was a much better ending. In a movie where it is up to the viewer to decide whose right, having him kill Iron Man would have badly tainted his side, since the audience still sees Iron Man as a hero. Plus, not only does it let Marvel keep two of their most popular characters, but it's one of the few times that a superhero movie comes close to resolving things non-violently. Because Cap didn't simply kill Iron man, there is a possibility of characters reconciling later.
Honestly, I think that we should applaud a superhero movie for having an ending where murder is not the solution (twice).
I was actually secretly hoping Iron Man would kill or cripple Capt. America. That would be a good way for them t retire him and have someone else take up the shield.
Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
gorgon wrote: Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
Well you nailed all of my problems with the film and said it better than I did. I agree wholeheartedly.
gorgon wrote: Saw it over the weekend. I'd put it above the gakfest that was Avengers 2, but below Winter Soldier. It was entertaining enough, but just reminded me of all the flaws of the MCU films, and why at this point I should just wait for them on Blu-ray.
Spoiler:
I'll start with the easiest criticism -- the fact that no one noticed Zemo wasn't the guy the hired to interview Barnes is a plot hole of LUDICROUS proportions. I'd be willing to give the lack of backup generators in that same sequence a pass, but not that one. It's just dumb.
Stepping back into the bigger stuff, I'm not sure that the premise has the same import as it did in the comics (although the comics story was a mess). The point in the comics storyline was that superheroes (including the Avengers) operated as vigiliantes. But the MCU Avengers were from the beginning a *militarized* version of the comics team, organized and overseen by a multinational law enforcement/defense organization. They were operating on behalf of SHIELD in New York...they WEREN'T vigilantes acting however they wanted. I get that things have changed somewhat since Winter Soldier, but the accord is ultimately just about them going *back under* some oversight like they had in the recent past. TO ME, that doesn't feel like enough to get heroes to come to blows.
Which brings me to Tony Stark. I didn't feel like his actions after learning the details of his parents' demise were in remotely in character. He *knows* that Bucky was nothing more than a programmed puppet; a weapon aimed by someone else. I'm not expecting him to be happy about that or even want to associate with Cap or Bucky anymore. I'd expect some fireworks. But for him to fly into a *murderous rage* -- and not for a moment as he lost his cool, but for an extended sequence -- just didn't feel right, especially after it was clear he'd kill Cap if he got in his way another time. Yeah, he's dealing with a breakup...that doesn't drive good people to try and murder others. The revealing line "I don't care, he killed my mom" is an acknowledgement right in the script that it doesn't make any sense for the character.
But then at least Tony had actual character development in the movie. The supposed headliner of the film certainly didn't, not that he could after the filmmakers crammed in all they did. I get that RDJ is the star of the MCU and needs his screen time, but did they need *that much* advertising for two future films? Did they need to spend so much screen time setting up Wanda and Vision's relationship, even as they crammed in some passing Sharon Carter stuff that lacked any real chemistry or import? Zemo suffered just as much as Cap from the cast of thousands, and ended up another Marvel-style nothing, tin can villain for the heroes to knock over. Why not spend some of that time spend on other stuff making the villain actually interesting? Why not spend it on developing the character named in the title? My takeaway here is that either the studio doesn't think Cap is an interesting enough character to be the real subject of a film, or they're convinced that Chris Evans won't bring in box office without plenty of backup. As in nearly every other character they have. It was *far* more Avengers 2.5 than Winter Soldier was Avengers 1.5.
This film was handled much more deftly than Avengers 2, but it still had some of the same problems just because it followed the same formula. These films are fun at a very superficial level, but don't feel meaningful or memorable because they're just another episode in a continuing story that isn't going anywhere. As much as BvS shows WB to be in a hurry to build something, these films make it seem as though Marvel is content with endless amounts of worldbuilding and cross-pollenation without a payoff. And these movies aren't different enough in tone, direction, or visual style to draw me in that way.
Maybe I'll get interested again when they finally get around to battling Thanos in 2019.
Well you nailed all of my problems with the film and said it better than I did. I agree wholeheartedly.
Well films are subjective.................that's why I disagree with pretty much everything here
Given that Zemo had a disguise so he could pass off as the Winter Soldier one wonders if it might have been better if he'd had some more disguise skills/kit -- would've made the infiltration of the base later a bit more plausible maybe ?
One would suggest that a ranking officer in a Sokovian ... sp ? ........ "Deathsquad" might be on the radar, so to speak.
I was a little unsure about exactly what Zemo had discovered from the leaked files.
One assumes the footage of the murders -- which I have some other issues with, Stark senior -- of flying car, Cap's shield etc etc fame didn't have any gadgets in his car/on himself at all ? And the worlds' deadliest assassin picks the one spot on that road where everything is/can be filmed ? -- was hidden away, but it seemed to me that he got the genesis of the idea or at least part of the truth from the massive dump of Hydra files at the end of Winter Soldier.
... Stark and/or the Avengers -- who were spending their time hunting down Hydra -- didn't go through these files then ?
Y'know, I was fine with Black Panther. He had an arc that wove into the story, and in the end served as a nobler contrast to murderous Tony Stark. And he was somewhat set up by the vibranium/Wakandan stuff from A2. Spider-Man, on the other hand, was just crammed in and stole time and lines from characters that were core to the story. And the whole apartment scene -- *while much more of a general crowdpleaser* than the BvS dream sequence -- was just as much of a momentum-stalling interlude in the middle of the film.
Given that Zemo had a disguise so he could pass off as the Winter Soldier one wonders if it might have been better if he'd had some more disguise skills/kit -- would've made the infiltration of the base later a bit more plausible maybe ?
One would suggest that a ranking officer in a Sokovian ... sp ? ........ "Deathsquad" might be on the radar, so to speak.
I was a little unsure about exactly what Zemo had discovered from the leaked files.
One assumes the footage of the murders -- which I have some other issues with, Stark senior -- of flying car, Cap's shield etc etc fame didn't have any gadgets in his car/on himself at all ? And the worlds' deadliest assassin picks the one spot on that road where everything is/can be filmed ? -- was hidden away, but it seemed to me that he got the genesis of the idea or at least part of the truth from the massive dump of Hydra files at the end of Winter Soldier.
... Stark and/or the Avengers -- who were spending their time hunting down Hydra -- didn't go through these files then ?
Spoiler:
IIRC, he said that the Hydra files were encrypted. I guess we're supposed to believe a random military officer was not only capable of beating SHIELD encryption, but the only one capable. Then again, I suppose that portrays the MCU's intelligence community fairly consistently, considering how he strolled into a supposed ultra-secure facility with umpteen cameras on him and no one had a clue, including the facial recognition software.
Hmm its a film - that sort of intelligence lapse is petty common in any spy based movie or tv show...
on the specifics:
Spoiler:
I can't stand Spiderman as a character and so was not happy he was in it - but they managed to get him ok - it was a bit of light relief to counterpoint and enhance the darker elements - something that Fox also does and DCF need to learn from if they want to make better films. The apartment bit fitted with the universe, the time travel dream whatever in BvS was just that - "what they hell?".
"Random military officer" you mean the special ops guy who has devoted himself to revenge - you know like all the spys like Jack Bauer, Bourne, Bond etc who do the same. Guess only western intelligence operatives can be good huh?
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
Yeah who would have thought someone would go into a murderous rage having just watched his parents being brutally murdered in front of him, following just after the break up of probably the only real relationship he has ever had, his PTSD, his guilt complex....... yeah why would he
Sadly people who laud the DC films for being "deep" don't tend to be interested in the "human" element so that's understandable.
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
Agreed - I thought his lack of interference in the final fight was well done - he had come for a specific reason and in the process found a better one.......
Mr Morden wrote: "Random military officer" you mean the special ops guy who has devoted himself to revenge - you know like all the spys like Jack Bauer, Bourne, Bond etc who do the same. Guess only western intelligence operatives can be good huh?
He was a soldier. We're told he was capable of defeating that level of encryption because he's "patient." LOL. Similar to the the "I don't care, he killed my mom" line, this is the screenwriter saying that "this makes no sense and I can't be bothered to explain this better, but full speed ahead!"
Yeah who would have thought someone would go into a murderous rage having just watched his parents being brutally murdered in front of him, following just after the break up of probably the only real relationship he has ever had, his PTSD, his guilt complex....... yeah why would he
Sadly people who laud the DC films for being "deep" don't tend to be interested in the "human" element so that's understandable.
I addressed that an emotional reaction is expected, along with what might be a permanent rift with Steve. Anger, yelling, a light scuffle, storming off...fine. But murderous fury and cutting lasers don't make sense given that we know Tony isn't a killer at heart, and he knows Bucky isn't to blame. Separation from a girlfriend doesn't make up that gap between the character we see there and the character seen in other movies. He's ready to kill Steve too if "necessary" fer chrissakes, and Steve *is* his friend, nevermind the little spats and exchanges they've had at times. That sequence is very forced in order to get to the superhero throwdown.
"I don't care, he killed my mom." LOL. Maybe "I don't care" will become the new thing in screenwriting when you need a persona to act completely contrary to its established character.
Black Panther was good - he was the equivalent of Wonder Woman in BvS - a character you want to see more, know more about.
True to the last part, but he was better integrated into the story than Wonder Woman was in BvS. Her role in BvS was almost perfunctory. BP had his own arc, his character changed by the end, and his presence throughout the story made sense.
And at no point did he check his E-mail and watch some Youtube videos to awkwardly attempt to set up a cinematic universe.
I'm a defender of BvS, relatively speaking. But sure, WW was absolutely crammed into BvS to set up her film. I don't think it was handled that badly, but WB is well aware of the track record for female superheroes (look at how Supergirl is flirting with cancellation already) and undoubtedly wanted to start building interest ASAP.
I know WB isn't a fan of after-credit stuff, but moving the heroes files sequence there would have helped BvS, I think. They could have shown Bruce seeing the symbols come up onscreen during the film, cut away back to the story, and then shown Bruce in the Batcave post-credits watching and studying the videos. Having the dream sequence there would also put it in closer proximity to Luthor's ravings in the cell, perhaps drawing a better connection for the normals in the audience.
We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
He is obsessed with revenge - not just patient, willing to do anything to get what he wants.
I suppose we could have had a montage of him dragging a concrete tyre around a bit to show his prep work but that would be a bit silly...........
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
I liked Wonder Woman - she was great - such a counterpoint to Loopy Lex and his inane stupid capering that tried hard to ruin the BvS film and any serious elements within it.
Mr Morden wrote: We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
Do you understand A) the work that special operators do and B) what military grade encryption is? There's a lot of road between A and B, and being 'patient' (what does that mean, taking some computer courses *very patiently* at a community college? and only for what, a year or two?) doesn't get you there.
If he had or even mentioned a team of people helping him, fine. (A rare missed opportunity for Marvel to do some worldbuilding, methinks.) But the writers were apparently fixated on making him a lone gunman, which I suppose makes him a easier tin can to knock over without pesky ramifications.
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
It would have been far more believable and real for him to focus his anger on Steve -- although not "I'm going to cut you in half with a laser" anger -- and dismiss Bucky as being a meat puppet. His parents have also been dead for 25 years. It still doesn't get Tony Stark from being a good man to "I'm going to kill people who weren't really responsible so that I feel better." It just doesn't. What you're suggesting is that Tony was only ever some stress and turmoil way from becoming raging Murder Man, which doesn't jibe with what we've seen of the character to date. And we've seen plenty.
Whether or not you like the exceptionally dark Batman in BvS, that film is about the redemption of a beaten-down individual who starts that film already having turned into a criminal and cruel by Bruce's and Alfred's own words. He wasn't the good guy. But this thread isn't really about BvS.
Mr Morden wrote: We are told the Zemo guy is the commander (colonel) of an elite squad - so special ops, noy just a grunt on the front line.
Do you understand A) the work that special operators do and B) what military grade encryption is? There's a lot of road between A and B, and being 'patient' (what does that mean, taking some computer courses *very patiently* at a community college? and only for what, a year or two?) doesn't get you there.
If he had or even mentioned a team of people helping him, fine. (A rare missed opportunity for Marvel to do some worldbuilding, methinks.) But the writers were apparently fixated on making him a lone gunman, which I suppose makes him a easier tin can to knock over without pesky ramifications.
The cold hard fact of seeing his mother strangled to death, his father's head pounded into mush - and then just to top that off - oh yeah the guy who claims to be a friend says "yeah I knew" but he is my mate so..... Add on all the other issues - physical injury, his failing relationship, guilt over various deaths- It pushed him over the edge and he had a psychotic break - understandable I think.....
I guess Batman should have just looked at the bigger picture too - Did Superman go out of his way to kill people, nope, but lets go kill him in case in his constant state of rage and grief over, oh yeah some guy who killed his parents in cold blood - guess that's why he brands people, kills people etc etc....
It would have been far more believable and real for him to focus his anger on Steve -- although not "I'm going to cut you in half with a laser" anger -- and dismiss Bucky as being a meat puppet. His parents have also been dead for 25 years. It still doesn't get Tony Stark from being a good man to "I'm going to kill people who weren't really responsible so that I feel better." It just doesn't. What you're suggesting is that Tony was only ever some stress and turmoil way from becoming raging Murder Man, which doesn't jibe with what we've seen of the character to date. And we've seen plenty.
Whether or not you like the exceptionally dark Batman in BvS, that film is about the redemption of a beaten-down individual who starts that film already having turned into a criminal and cruel by Bruce's and Alfred's own words. He wasn't the good guy. But this thread isn't really about BvS.
So you are saying that no one ever had a psychotic break or similar from stress? That perfectly normal people don't sometimes just snap?
Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
So Tony's parents have been dead for 25 years - how long have Batman's. I thought Batman was great in BvS - he, Superman and Wonder Woman were ace - they were not the problem - it was the plot (or lack of) and Loopy Lex ruining anything that came close to thoughtful - the opposite of what happened in this film.
Tony wants to kill Bucky - a person who never expresses any remorse over what he has done to him, is content to keep running and killing - even though he knows he is just a walking killbot waiting for the trigger words. However he was stopped and had time to work through what had happened and its still not resolved- rather than just -"oh yeah our mothers have the same name - lets kiss and make up. "
When do they define what Colonel Zemo actually did apart from being part of an elite team? You do understand that Hollywood films are not examinations of how intelligence agencies actually work right? Do we know he was not skilled in computer hacking??
I suppose we could go the Nolan way and cop out by showing a five minute montage in a Tibetan ninja school - and go yeah - he is the best martial artist in the world - cos reasons.
Desubot wrote: Ah crap i didnt realize there was a second end credits scene. what did i miss?
Spoiler:
Right at the end of the credits, Peter Parker is back in his room, he tells Aunt May he got in a fight with 'Steve from Brooklyn' and as he's fiddling with his web-shooters, he triggers a hologram/display projector with the Spider-symbol on and some kind of interface, presumably this will lead to something in the premise for the solo film.
A scene with Peter and Aunt May. "Oh dearie, you got in a fight. Who was it. "Some guy called Steve." "Steve from two blocks away, I'll have a talk with his mother." "No, it's this guy, Steve from Brooklyn." "Did you get a few hits in at least?" "Yeah, a few." *Smiles and fades to black.
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
A normal person isn't accustomed to solving problems with violence like Tony is either though...
Compel wrote: I've gotta say, I never really did feel that Tony was specifically out to kill either Cap or Bucky.
Sure, he wanted to beat them both into submission then drag them by their heels to prison, but kill, nah.
I think so as well. well maybe he did want to kill buck.
as an example though.
Spoiler:
Tony could of easily blasted the cap off the cliff as he was getting up near the vent when he was full staggered and shield less. im also sure he could of just overloaded the suit and killed em all if he had gone full rage mode
Mr Morden wrote: Lets not ignore the fact that the whole film had been setting up this - from the first scene with Tony trying to come to terms with his parents death, his growing guilt over the deaths he has caused by both not acting and acting. He is a different man to the one we saw in Iron Man.
Lots of people have dead parents, guilt, and failed relationships, yet don't turn murderous.
So in other words, yes, Tony Stark was secretly a giant time bomb just waiting to go off, in some kind of heel turn right out of pro wrestling. If you're good with that, then fine. I'm not.
Your saying no one could do that?? That some people who suddnely have all these things happen don;t snap? Do you watch the news.........?
Its nothing to do with being a heel - He had a mad moment - it passed, he has to live with it - unlike say Bucky who appears not to care about anything he did.
Or are your characters so very black and white and inhuman......I prefer them with a litte more depth and humanity - good and bad.
My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Alpharius wrote: Really enjoyed the film, but as previously noted, this feels more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3.
I really disagree here. This was the sequel to Winter Soldier as much as it was to Age of Ultron. We got development of the new characters from AoU, but this continued the Cap/Bucky storyline for most of the film. The actual Civil War was a backdrop to this.
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
It relies heavily on coincidence... perhaps not as much as two people having mothers with the same first name... but still, there is a pretty big leap of logic that Zemo's plan requires to work.
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't a coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Well, one of your best buds has kept the identity of your parents' murderer secret for a good long while. I'd want to knock a few lumps off my friend and avenge my parents if they did that to me.
Alpharius wrote: Really enjoyed the film, but as previously noted, this feels more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3.
I really disagree here. This was the sequel to Winter Soldier as much as it was to Age of Ultron. We got development of the new characters from AoU, but this continued the Cap/Bucky storyline for most of the film. The actual Civil War was a backdrop to this.
You disagree that it felt more like AVENGERS 2.5 than CAPTAIN AMERICA 3 to me?
trexmeyer wrote: Meh, I agree Spidey and Black Panther were probably the best part of the film. I agree with your most of your points, I just wish comic book movies...could rise above their source material and really say something. It's sad when a deconstruction is the best piece in the genre.
Only if you don't actually like the source material. I don't watch comic book movies for a deep cerebral experience, I want a fun flashy action film with some pop philosophy that gives me some nostalgia feelies for the stuff I read as a kid, and the MCU delivers that in spades. Not everything has to be some arthouse black & white indie wankpiece that meditates on the nature of reality from the perspective of a grain of sand, and frankly if that's what you're looking for I have to ask when you're going to get the message that the MCU isn't for you? I mean jeebus, we're how many films in now and you're still evidently watching them and criticising them because they're not what you'd prefer them to be despite them never having pretended to be anything more than what they are.
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Zemo is a really odd antagonist. On one hand he's more of an everyman than a comic book villain. He's a former special forces soldier, but not obviously special beyond that -- no traditional superpowers, no costume, no purple mask, no megalomania, no minions, no baron title, etc. The filmmakers seem to want to portray him as just a guy with grudge against the heroes due to a personal tragedy.
That's fine and actually kinda interesting. But then they portray this supposed lone gunman everyman with almost supernatural abilities as you describe. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're going for an everyman villain, then you'd think you'd show him using actual smarts and others to accomplish his goals -- little tricks, persuasions, manipulations, blackmails...planning for various contingencies...whatever. Not magically knowing what will happen and when, having competencies that he shouldn't, and sporting profound levels of plot armor.
But then we're probably back to needing time to work all that out onscreen, and the film doesn't have time to spare after cramming in all the "stuff."
Ahtman wrote: My biggest issue was how Zemo knew what everyone would do beforehand and was able to predict and prepare for the unpredictable, even for comic book logic it was a bit of a stretch. There is coincidence I can hand wave and then there is magical plot contrivance that doesn't sit well.
Remember, this was plan "B". Plan "A" involved beating the information out of a Russian guy. Plan "A' didn't work, so Zemo decided to try the plan that required a lot more luck and dead people, and then got lucky. Overall, I think that it was well enough done that the MST3K mantra can apply.
Iron Man going rogue at the last minute and Zemo having the tape ready knowing that and also knowing that it would make him try and kill Cap and Bucky just felt forced. So, I don't agree that the MST3K mantra applies. There were other ways they could have approached it to get the same result, even if it was just a line about how with Tony being there maybe he would want to see something instead of the footage already being part of the plan and ready to go with him just waiting for unknown variable to arrive as perfectly predicted by the plot. This isn't coincidence, it is just bad plotting.
Zemo is a really odd antagonist. On one hand he's more of an everyman than a comic book villain. He's a former special forces soldier, but not obviously special beyond that -- no traditional superpowers, no costume, no purple mask, no megalomania, no minions, no baron title, etc. The filmmakers seem to want to portray him as just a guy with grudge against the heroes due to a personal tragedy.
That's fine and actually kinda interesting. But then they portray this supposed lone gunman everyman with almost supernatural abilities as you describe. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're going for an everyman villain, then you'd think you'd show him using actual smarts and others to accomplish his goals -- little tricks, persuasions, manipulations, blackmails...planning for various contingencies...whatever. Not magically knowing what will happen and when, having competencies that he shouldn't, and sporting profound levels of plot armor.
But then we're probably back to needing time to work all that out onscreen, and the film doesn't have time to spare after cramming in all the "stuff."
I took it that (as in previous Marvel and Fox and to some degree B vS) films - this is all about consequences of superhero's in the world and humanities reaction to them - its obviously much more developed in the Fox films with Mutants vs Humanity theme - but they certainly talk about how there are more and more people with powers arising.
I think it works really well as a "mere" special forces operator trying to avenge his family - how many times have we seen this for the other side?
re his almost supernatural abilities - well it is a conceit of filmmaking - look at the 24 series with layers and layers of plans by the bad guys.
Its nowhere near as unbelievable as the truly supernatural ability to predict every single thing that ever happened that the Joker showed in the Nolan Batman films - if you thought Zemo was bad - you must have been truly outraged by him - especially there is nothing to show how he does it - he just does.........
trexmeyer wrote: Meh, I agree Spidey and Black Panther were probably the best part of the film. I agree with your most of your points, I just wish comic book movies...could rise above their source material and really say something. It's sad when a deconstruction is the best piece in the genre.
Only if you don't actually like the source material. I don't watch comic book movies for a deep cerebral experience, I want a fun flashy action film with some pop philosophy that gives me some nostalgia feelies for the stuff I read as a kid, and the MCU delivers that in spades. Not everything has to be some arthouse black & white indie wankpiece that meditates on the nature of reality from the perspective of a grain of sand, and frankly if that's what you're looking for I have to ask when you're going to get the message that the MCU isn't for you? I mean jeebus, we're how many films in now and you're still evidently watching them and criticising them because they're not what you'd prefer them to be despite them never having pretended to be anything more than what they are.
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
The irony here being that Civil War did rise about its source material. The comics Civil War was a complete mess, turning Tony into a moustache-twirling villain who used mind-wiped super villains and a robo-Thor clone thingy to force Steve & Co. to register. Him and Mr. Fantastic even made an inter dimensional prison to hold people who were against them. Tony went so nutso-evil that eventually Mr. F said "Screw this, I'm out!" and left.
Comics Civil War failed because one side was clearly right and one side was clearly, overwhelming, cliché-ily wrong. Movies Civil War isn't so clear cut.
I'm glad that movie wasn't made...
Me too!
MOVIE Civil War blows away COMICS Civil War - and it isn't even close!
