58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So Amazon is selling it for $5 more than MSRP?
8501
Post by: Nuclear Mekanik
Here in the UK the Death Masque box set is on sale on Amazon for £35 more than GW price, I dunno who buys this stuff 
5462
Post by: adamsouza
It's not Amazon selling it. It's another retailer using Amazon's Website to sell it.
Price: $54.99 & FREE Shipping. Details
In Stock.
Sold by MyQuickMart and Fulfilled by Amazon.
The stock is sitting in an Amazon Fullfilment Center, but technically belongs to MyQuickMart, in this case.
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
My guess (though I'm not an expert in Amazon shenanigans) is that this is a reseller who does not actually expect to sell any units at that price until the set is sold out elsewhere, but who fancies using Amazon to save money on warehouse space in the meantime.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Is there still no retailer selling these things in SoCal? Or online without shenanigans?
It feels like GW doesn't know how to make an accessible introductory kit.
96540
Post by: TheWaspinator
I was assembling one of these sets and I've got a mystery piece on one of the sprues. It's round and has a peg on the back. Any ideas?
7375
Post by: BrookM
Can you describe it in more detail? Does it have a skull or a few spent shell casings on it?
90752
Post by: Warhams-77
It's base decoration. Either a skull with a hole or bullets. In the original AOBR set they could be used to fill the holes in the 40mm bases for the Terminators and the 60(65?)mm for the Dreadnought which had more holes than the models needed. These bases were designed for easy construction (without glue).
96540
Post by: TheWaspinator
Ah, that makes sense. It does look like bullets, so I guess it goes with the terminator.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Exciting news for those of you asking if the Battle for Vedros range will be available outside North America. We are delighted to announce that later this year, you'll start to see these sets in stores across the UK.
We'll have more details for you soon.
(via Battle for Vedros on Facebook)
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
Ooh!
85386
Post by: Chairman Aeon
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Exciting news for those of you asking if the Battle for Vedros range will be available outside North America. We are delighted to announce that later this year, you'll start to see these sets in stores across the UK.
Exciting news would be that it's actually available inside North America. I live in a city of almost 2.5 million people and can't get hold of it.
Last time I was in the UK you could buy Citadel miniatures next to Matchbox cars in small toy shops. What happened? (This is a rhetorical question.)
Iain.
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
You still can in some.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Yeah, their saturation into North America is something of a joke. Apparently I can travel farther than the diameter of England in any direction without finding anyone selling Vedros kits, and I live in and near some of the most populous cities/metro areas in the entire US. Who are they trying to sell to?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:Yeah, their saturation into North America is something of a joke. Apparently I can travel farther than the diameter of England in any direction without finding anyone selling Vedros kits, and I live in and near some of the most populous cities/metro areas in the entire US. Who are they trying to sell to?
Probably big retailers; which isn't gonna work unless they sell in bulk at a discount.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
From their announcements is seems like they were expecting retailers to magically sense their products existance, not worry about from gaming shops already selling 40K, and contacting the regional sales reps on their own.
I asked multiple toy shops and none of them had ever heard of Battle for Vedros. The few people at the shops who new what 40K was, automatically insisted they didn't carry 40K models, and didn't listen long enough to get that this was supposed to be a board game style product and not a Wargaming one.
94383
Post by: Chikout
 adamsouza wrote:From their announcements is seems like they were expecting retailers to magically sense their products existance, not worry about from gaming shops already selling 40K, and contacting the regional sales reps on their own.
I asked multiple toy shops and none of them had ever heard of Battle for Vedros. The few people at the shops who new what 40K was, automatically insisted they didn't carry 40K models, and didn't listen long enough to get that this was supposed to be a board game style product and not a Wargaming one.
This is still a pilot program. GW has a history of making too many products and not selling them. My guess is that this is a multi year plan. Growing slowly store by store is a very sensible plan and severely limits the risk of this venture.
I am sure that they are deliberately staying away from big retailers as they would be expected to produce a large quantity of stock which may not sell.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
It was suspected that GW stayed away from Big Retailers becuase it is assumed that they would still enforce their "no selling our crap" online policy, which is something Walmart, Target, or any other big retailer would laugh at.
If they ever make it to Michaels, A.C. Moore, or Hobby Lobby, we'll have a feeding frenzy with 40-50% coupons.
92851
Post by: JonWebb
Apologies if this has already been shown, but the Game Christmas catalogue came out, and there is an interesting entry for UK folks.
1
77029
Post by: Bull0
Hey, that's pretty neat. There's at least one GAME in pretty much every town centre in the UK, for better or worse.
92851
Post by: JonWebb
 Bull0 wrote:Hey, that's pretty neat. There's at least one GAME in pretty much every town centre in the UK, for better or worse.
yup, plus most towns with a Games Workshop have a Game, so there is some cross pollination there too.
Not the most obvious choice for a sales location for the range, but actually not a terrible one on reflection.
16689
Post by: notprop
I suppose with the dearth of 40k games and Apps about it kinda makes sense.
Still that's a big chain for GW to be tied in with.
92851
Post by: JonWebb
 notprop wrote:I suppose with the dearth of 40k games and Apps about it kinda makes sense.
Still that's a big chain for GW to be tied in with.
Game seems about as into the discounting culture as GW are... so there is that too 
Plus its only a few letters off the same place 
77029
Post by: Bull0
It's a good fit really, with Dawn of War 3 out soon.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
It seems there is now a store in SoCal selling Vedros kits. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but hopefully later this month I will. Amazing era we've moved into.
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
22802
Post by: MadCowCrazy
 JonWebb wrote:Apologies if this has already been shown, but the Game Christmas catalogue came out, and there is an interesting entry for UK folks.
Wait a sec? Only 1 Deffkopta? I thought this was a reprint of Assault on Black Reach where you got 3 deffkoptas?
Less marines and terminators as well?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
 MadCowCrazy wrote: JonWebb wrote:Apologies if this has already been shown, but the Game Christmas catalogue came out, and there is an interesting entry for UK folks.
Wait a sec? Only 1 Deffkopta? I thought this was a reprint of Assault on Black Reach where you got 3 deffkoptas?
Less marines and terminators as well?
My understanding is that it's a box containing a single sprue unlike AOBR which had multiple sprues.
5018
Post by: Souleater
Huge nostalgia seeing these models again. if I wasn't saving for BB and plastic SoB I would actually pick up a set to paint.
96105
Post by: Ctaylor
BobtheInquisitor wrote:It seems there is now a store in SoCal selling Vedros kits. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but hopefully later this month I will. Amazing era we've moved into.
What store in SoCal?
557
Post by: alphaecho
It looks like those Bike Attack sets are utilising the single Terminator and Nob sprues that were freebies with the Black Reach WD issue.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Eyup.
And the Terminators in the other set are really old ones.
98762
Post by: RazorEdge
Looks like this have nothing to do wie Vedros?
7375
Post by: BrookM
While the core game is absent, the rest matches up with what was on display across the pond.
Okay, strike that, but still, may as well put it here.
89250
Post by: Loremaster Of Awesomeness
Sorry, if it's already been discussed, but has there been any confirmation whether these will be released in the UK yet or just America?
557
Post by: alphaecho
 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:Sorry, if it's already been discussed, but has there been any confirmation whether these will be released in the UK yet or just America?
GAME shops will be selling Vedros sets in the UK.
105694
Post by: Lord Damocles
You'd have thought that they could have given the Dreadnought in the boxart for the Space Marine Heavy Assault box the weapons the model actually comes with.
Also the Terminator Sergeant is painted with a non- Codex compliant helmet.
EDIT: Scratch that; it's apparently a 'Terminator Captain'. Although the Terminator in the Space Marine Bike Attack box does totally have the wrong coloured helmet!
88452
Post by: RobertsMinis
FirestormGames in the UK have these listed for sale but as Out of Stock with Manufacturer
1464
Post by: Breotan
Are those the old style Terminators?
557
Post by: alphaecho
 RobertsMinis wrote:FirestormGames in the UK have these listed for sale but as Out of Stock with Manufacturer
I think GAME have them down as being available from mid November on their site so it might be more of a 'not released yet' thing than out of stock. Automatically Appended Next Post:
No old sprue left untouched!
89250
Post by: Loremaster Of Awesomeness
Without being Mr Wrong-End-Of-The-Stick, isn't GAME purely a video game shop?
557
Post by: alphaecho
They go for a lot of sci fi/ fantasy booblehead figure type products in store. They might see the Vedros stuff as an additional revenue stream.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 Ctaylor wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:It seems there is now a store in SoCal selling Vedros kits. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but hopefully later this month I will. Amazing era we've moved into.
What store in SoCal?
The Realm in Brea. This information is second hand as I haven't had a chance to get up there, and it sounds like they don't have much stock left, but it's something! Automatically Appended Next Post:
They look spinny. Very spinny.
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
Well that's one way to discourage current players from buying cheap Termies... make 'em naff ones!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"As usual, I recommend you use two thi... ah feth it, just slap it on..." [sneak preview of Duncan's How To Ruin Your Vedros Set video]
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
Do any current players need any more termies, ever?
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I can confirm the Realm in Brea having Vedros kits- I'm the one who saw them in the first place.
Supply was pretty limited at the time, and that was a few weeks ago.
59054
Post by: Nevelon
For those of us who are older then dirt, these guys would help flesh out squads with similar aesthetics/sized models.
Not that I need more, but the fact that I have 12 of the old metal tactical terminators irks me. Squads should be sitting in groups of 5 or 10 on the shelf.
12914
Post by: FoxPhoenix135
Truescalers probably see those as a goldmine, since they only want the legs in most cases anyway.
88026
Post by: casvalremdeikun
I hope those Terminators are easy enough to alter. I hate Heavy Flamers on Terminators. But I really want that Dreadnought and that debris. If I have to get some Terminators, I want to make him have an Assault Cannon.
1464
Post by: Breotan
This seems like a great way to get Land Speeders if you need them. Cheaper than the regular kit and you get some ammo boxes to go with it.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
The Fantasy Flight Event Center carries thewe kits here in minnesota.
104906
Post by: NivlacSupreme
I might fo for 2 sets of the cheap termies. Shave off the crux and make them 30k death guard
66741
Post by: ced1106
 Nevelon wrote:For those of us who are older then dirt, these guys would help flesh out squads with similar aesthetics/sized models.
Woo! First edition Space Hulk! 
Anyway, sales are showing up on " GW image available" eBay : http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Warhammer+40%2C000+Space+Ork+Blastabike+Build+and+Paint+Set&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XWarhammer+40%2C000+Space++Build+and+Paint+Set.TRS0&_nkw=Warhammer+40%2C000+Space++Build+and+Paint+Set&_sacat=0
Next time I get an eBay Flash Sale notification, I'll post it on News and Rumors, so you can save a few bucks. Remember to select what you want to buy before the sale.
Also, if anyone sees this in arts and crafts stores (eg. Michael's) please post! 
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
They're not THAT old. The first edition Space Hulk Termies were a very different beast. These are later sculpts.
100848
Post by: tneva82
I have suspicion these are not meant for current players
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
Yeah, I was replying to the post immediately above mine. 
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
One day til release on GAME's site. The bikes and wartrakk seem to be on oval bases, which is nice.
57840
Post by: Ragnar69
 Breotan wrote:This seems like a great way to get Land Speeders if you need them. Cheaper than the regular kit and you get some ammo boxes to go with it.
I think thats's the old sprues, with only a multi-melta and heavy bolter included.
96105
Post by: Ctaylor
Actually saw Vedros in a store. Game On in Prescott, AZ carries it. I almost fainted from excitement.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Prescott or Prescott Valley?
I ask because when I visited, it seemed like Prescott Valley was a bigger city, while Prescott had the uh, town square and Hastings?
And the way things are going I'm more likely to get a chance to shop around in Prescott Valley before I get to go to Brea or Fresno.
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
Interestingly these are not a good deal in the UK, at least from GAME. The Attack Bike is at GW's standard RRP for an Attack Bike, i.e. more expensive than a non-Vedros Attack Bike from any discounter.
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
Wait til January clearance...
82964
Post by: medikant
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Prescott or Prescott Valley?
I ask because when I visited, it seemed like Prescott Valley was a bigger city, while Prescott had the uh, town square and Hastings?
And the way things are going I'm more likely to get a chance to shop around in Prescott Valley before I get to go to Brea or Fresno.
They merged the stores into a single one now in Prescott.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
Sadly, this is what I've had in the back of my mind from the beggining. Any retailer, who doesn't have gaming stuff, is going to have a hard time moving Vedros material, and eventually discount it.
The Vedros starter sets are a great deal as is, getting any sort of significant discount on them would be a steal.
5394
Post by: reds8n
http://fightingfantasist.tumblr.com/post/154328715362/new-old-gorkamorka-kits-the-wartrukk-is-from-the
"New old Gorkamorka kits!
The Wartrukk is from the Build + Paint Series 1 box which I got yesterday from a local independent toy shop for £17.99. It also comes with a sprue of the 1998 vintage Ork Boys (4 models). Coloured plastic, green and black although not the same green as the Orc team in the new Blood Bowl which is a much brighter colour.
The Wartrakk is from the “white” packaging Vedros sets from GAME. I forget the price but curiously it’s not moulded in coloured plastic. Also comes with one of the modern oval bases that are approximately 105 x 68mm.
The trukk comes with 4 tiny pots of paint, an even tinier tube of poly cement, and a Citadel Starter Brush. The trakk comes with none of this. A bit odd that, almost as if the two product lines are aimed at slightly different customers."
just a reminder
3725
Post by: derek
Isn't Vedros stuff just the way they put the Assault on Black Reach models back into circulation? That probably why they are normal sprue color.
82903
Post by: MLaw
 derek wrote:Isn't Vedros stuff just the way they put the Assault on Black Reach models back into circulation? That probably why they are normal sprue color.
No battle for Pedro is them taking a bunch of their drek kits from the 80s and mass produced monopose stuff from various boxed sets (including AoBR) and repackaging it as "new". People are excited about this for some silly reason. Those old Gorkamorka kits are on a whole different scale of bad. The worst is that kids are going to get these, build them and paint them and be super proud.. then go to a gaming store looking for a match and notice that they are using kit that doesn't fit in.
On the other hand.. those old trukks are TINY.. so cheeky tournament players will undoubtedly get those to use instead of the modern kit.
That said, the other things from Pedro aren't that bad as long as you don't need a bunch of them.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
They are all the snap together models repackaged and targeted to markets outside of the tabletop gaming community.
Battle For Vedros is marketed as a kids board game, and the second wave with paints included is marketed at the kids model making market.
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I thought the big draw was that they were cheaper than equivalent 'real' kits.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
 MLaw wrote:No battle for Pedro is them taking a bunch of their drek kits from the 80s and mass produced monopose stuff from various boxed sets (including AoBR) and repackaging it as "new".
80's? Gorkamorka didn't come out 'til 1997. They're the oldest minis in this range.
And they're not repackaging it as 'new'. They're repackaging them as simple kits for the younger crowd. This is why they are the kits from the previous 40K starterbox + a few other simple kits.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
It's a draw for existing 40K players, but the real point of them was to sucker in new 40K players.
Like these models ? Had fun playing Battle for Vedros ? Try our flagship Game Warhammer 40,000 !!!
82903
Post by: MLaw
 H.B.M.C. wrote: MLaw wrote:No battle for Pedro is them taking a bunch of their drek kits from the 80s and mass produced monopose stuff from various boxed sets (including AoBR) and repackaging it as "new".
80's? Gorkamorka didn't come out 'til 1997. They're the oldest minis in this range.
And they're not repackaging it as 'new'. They're repackaging them as simple kits for the younger crowd. This is why they are the kits from the previous 40K starterbox + a few other simple kits.
I stand corrected on the date but I think you're stretching semantics to claim they're not trying to treat this as a new release. For the uninitiated they have no clue that it's leftovers microwaved and being served up as cuisine.. The pricing tells the real story. It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits. Even if it was just to re-use the crew from the new Trukk kit or the Stompa crew or whatever. I suppose bits sellers will be busy supplying alternatives :/ Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they're still considered official models, I can see tourney players really really liking those smaller old kits. Seriously, if anyone doesn't own any or hasn't seen them in person.. they can hide behind almost anything.
96540
Post by: TheWaspinator
How would they not be official models? They're GW molds and are still being made by them. Them being old designs doesn't invalidate them.
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
The Wartrakk is an OK mini let down by poor crew, I think. The Trukk really suffers by comparison to the modern equivalent though.
57840
Post by: Ragnar69
MLaw wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: MLaw wrote:No battle for Pedro is them taking a bunch of their drek kits from the 80s and mass produced monopose stuff from various boxed sets (including AoBR) and repackaging it as "new".
80's? Gorkamorka didn't come out 'til 1997. They're the oldest minis in this range.
And they're not repackaging it as 'new'. They're repackaging them as simple kits for the younger crowd. This is why they are the kits from the previous 40K starterbox + a few other simple kits.
I stand corrected on the date but I think you're stretching semantics to claim they're not trying to treat this as a new release. For the uninitiated they have no clue that it's leftovers microwaved and being served up as cuisine.. The pricing tells the real story. It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits. Even if it was just to re-use the crew from the new Trukk kit or the Stompa crew or whatever. I suppose bits sellers will be busy supplying alternatives :/
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they're still considered official models, I can see tourney players really really liking those smaller old kits. Seriously, if anyone doesn't own any or hasn't seen them in person.. they can hide behind almost anything.
They don't even sell it in their store and I have never seen advertising for them on the GW website or stores. Why do you think their plan is to fool old customers? They are clearly intended for kids who never heard of 40k before.
81007
Post by: brushcommando
From purely a modelling standpoint, I would enjoy getting a hold of some of the older "retro" looking models. If I recall correctly, one of the boxes has the black reach dreadnought and five of the old plastic terminators. A pretty fun little kit if you ask me.
Does anyone know if these are headed to the U.S. at some point?
82903
Post by: MLaw
TheWaspinator wrote:How would they not be official models? They're GW molds and are still being made by them. Them being old designs doesn't invalidate them.
This is me not knowing the particulars of the release. Are they being released as GW products, Citadel, or something else? I'm just thinking along the lines of what PP has done in the recent past. It's made me a bit cynical towards those types of things I think. That said, I also know some TO's in the Virginia area from when I lived on the East Coast who wouldn't allow 2nd Ed Avatars because they weren't reflective of the current rules for the model or somesuch. My friend that was using it was fairly pissed.
Ragnar69 wrote: MLaw wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: MLaw wrote:No battle for Pedro is them taking a bunch of their drek kits from the 80s and mass produced monopose stuff from various boxed sets (including AoBR) and repackaging it as "new".
80's? Gorkamorka didn't come out 'til 1997. They're the oldest minis in this range.
And they're not repackaging it as 'new'. They're repackaging them as simple kits for the younger crowd. This is why they are the kits from the previous 40K starterbox + a few other simple kits.
I stand corrected on the date but I think you're stretching semantics to claim they're not trying to treat this as a new release. For the uninitiated they have no clue that it's leftovers microwaved and being served up as cuisine.. The pricing tells the real story. It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits. Even if it was just to re-use the crew from the new Trukk kit or the Stompa crew or whatever. I suppose bits sellers will be busy supplying alternatives :/
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they're still considered official models, I can see tourney players really really liking those smaller old kits. Seriously, if anyone doesn't own any or hasn't seen them in person.. they can hide behind almost anything.
They don't even sell it in their store and I have never seen advertising for them on the GW website or stores. Why do you think their plan is to fool old customers? They are clearly intended for kids who never heard of 40k before.
I don't think you are reading or understanding what I am saying. I clearly mentioned kids. Kids are the only ones who WOULD be fooled by it. The reason I don't like this approach is because specifically it seems like it's aimed at entry level kids who are new to the hobby. Being a father of two children in that exact target group I am extremely tuned into this (if not a bit over sensitive)
96540
Post by: TheWaspinator
You can see the boxes here. They say "Warhammer 40,000" and the one I'm holding right now has a Games Workshop "Made in the UK" mark and copyright notice on the back.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/build_paint?_requestid=547335
57840
Post by: Ragnar69
I don't think you are reading or understanding what I am saying. I clearly mentioned kids. Kids are the only ones who WOULD be fooled by it. The reason I don't like this approach is because specifically it seems like it's aimed at entry level kids who are new to the hobby. Being a father of two children in that exact target group I am extremely tuned into this (if not a bit over sensitive)
I see it exactly the other way. I think they are excellent for beginner kids. Most won't become full 40k gamers anyway. And those that carry on with the hobby for years would replace there oldest models anyway.
Or do you still game with models that you have painted as a kid? I can't even stand my paint jobs from my tweens anymore. I was tempted to buy a box for my nephew if I could get them more easily here in Germany.
Again, the target are not future 40k gamers, the target are people strolling through the toy section being captured by the art.
82903
Post by: MLaw
Ragnar69 wrote:
I don't think you are reading or understanding what I am saying. I clearly mentioned kids. Kids are the only ones who WOULD be fooled by it. The reason I don't like this approach is because specifically it seems like it's aimed at entry level kids who are new to the hobby. Being a father of two children in that exact target group I am extremely tuned into this (if not a bit over sensitive)
I see it exactly the other way. I think they are excellent for beginner kids. Most won't become full 40k gamers anyway. And those that carry on with the hobby for years would replace there oldest models anyway.
Or do you still game with models that you have painted as a kid? I can't even stand my paint jobs from my tweens anymore. I was tempted to buy a box for my nephew if I could get them more easily here in Germany.
Again, the target are not future 40k gamers, the target are people strolling through the toy section being captured by the art.
Actually, I stripped them down and repainted them.. but at that time they were still the actual kits. I don't think you understand how old some of us are..
57840
Post by: Ragnar69
First, I don't see what age has to do with this.
Second, I started with Rogue Trader, so you obviously don't understand how old I am
The old ork trukks and buggies aren't half bad when you change the drivers bodies to to normal boys like I did back in 3rd edition.
If my son woudn't already have enough marines I would get him some of that stuff.
I really can't see any issues with these models for beginner kids unless they would cost nearly as much as the corresponding proper kits. Didn't bother to compare the prices as I'm too lazy to convert the foreign currencies or even to find out what they cost in the beginning
My SW infantry is mostly from the nineties, because they still are great sculpts. But if better looking replacements (i.e. anything with a Rhino chasis) became available, I gladly changed.
But I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think it's great they released them, you consider them a money grab.
85386
Post by: Chairman Aeon
Ragnar69 wrote:First, I don't see what age has to do with this.
Second, I started with Rogue Trader, so you obviously don't understand how old I am
...
If my son woudn't already have enough marines I would get him some of that stuff.
Ya, that!
My son doesn't have any Marines and I'm out of Dreadnoughts, so...
Iain.
82903
Post by: MLaw
Ragnar69 wrote:First, I don't see what age has to do with this.
Second, I started with Rogue Trader, so you obviously don't understand how old I am
The old ork trukks and buggies aren't half bad when you change the drivers bodies to to normal boys like I did back in 3rd edition.
If my son woudn't already have enough marines I would get him some of that stuff.
I really can't see any issues with these models for beginner kids unless they would cost nearly as much as the corresponding proper kits. Didn't bother to compare the prices as I'm too lazy to convert the foreign currencies or even to find out what they cost in the beginning
My SW infantry is mostly from the nineties, because they still are great sculpts. But if better looking replacements (i.e. anything with a Rhino chasis) became available, I gladly changed.
But I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think it's great they released them, you consider them a money grab.
Sorry, but if you refer to yourself in your tween years, I automatically assume you're young enough to still have models from those years.. if you are old and still have models from that long ago, bravo.. that's not the case for most of the people I know (especially when some of them don't stop letting you know they used to have squats and zoats).
Second, age is entirely relevant. As a person who has watched numerous old kits keep getting floated in place of new kits while the prices keep going up, it's frustrating. If you really did start at Rogue Trader, I can't see how you wouldn't see that point. As to the idea that the kits are not half bad ( AFAIK buggies aren't re-released, just trakks, trukks, and old bikes) I have to wonder if you own any of these? I still do and after getting the new trukks I ended up breaking them down for parts and terrain because they are absolutely horrible kits. The Space Marine side of this isn't half as bad to be honest but comparing the land speeder, dreadnought, and SM bikes to the vehicles in the Ork kit? Come on.. seriously? Either way, you are welcome to disagree.. this is a public forum and I was voicing my opinion. It was not specifically directed to you. I'm not sure why it bothers you (or anyone really) that I think this is a money grab but clearly it does.. that is very odd to me.
99
Post by: insaniak
MLaw wrote:
It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits.
That would have meant cutting new moulds.
From all appearances, the whole intention of this release is to get some extra life out of existing moulds. It's a way of reaching a new audience without the expense of new models. Altering them before release would completely negate the point of that.
If they're still considered official models, I can see tourney players really really liking those smaller old kits. Seriously, if anyone doesn't own any or hasn't seen them in person.. they can hide behind almost anything.
Considered 'official' by whom?
Models don't stop being usable just because they're old. There are plenty of us still using models as old or older than these.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MLaw wrote:
Sorry, but if you refer to yourself in your tween years, I automatically assume you're young enough to still have models from those years..
This comment confuses me. Do you just assume that everyone gets rid of their old models after some arbitrary period of time...?
82903
Post by: MLaw
 insaniak wrote: MLaw wrote: It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits.
That would have meant cutting new moulds. From all appearances, the whole intention of this release is to get some extra life out of existing moulds. It's a way of reaching a new audience without the expense of new models. Altering them before release would completely negate the point of that. If they're still considered official models, I can see tourney players really really liking those smaller old kits. Seriously, if anyone doesn't own any or hasn't seen them in person.. they can hide behind almost anything.
Considered 'official' by whom? Models don't stop being usable just because they're old. There are plenty of us still using models as old or older than these. Automatically Appended Next Post: MLaw wrote: Sorry, but if you refer to yourself in your tween years, I automatically assume you're young enough to still have models from those years..
This comment confuses me. Do you just assume that everyone gets rid of their old models after some arbitrary period of time...?
Ugh I hate line by line arguments that forego actual discussion to attempt to be "correct" on an individual basis while missing the whole point of the topic. Your very first response is exactly my point. They're being cheap-asses to milk some Ork kits that should be allowed to gracefully retire. Instead they are engaging in an "entry level" tactic I don't agree with (see my previous posts). I won't bother responding to the rest of your snark because you're clearly not interested in discussing this so much as just picking apart posts like they're entries in a rulebook or something. That and you didn't even bother reading my reply to someone else asking what I meant by "considered official".
29190
Post by: CURNOW
He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about people using old models when there are newer ones released. And also seems to think its some kind of scam run buy GW to trick kids in to buying a "inferior " kit ,
Personally I love the old trucks and how easy they were to convert up .
Now if they did a drastic plastics I would be all over them
82903
Post by: MLaw
 CURNOW wrote:He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about people using old models when there are newer ones released. And also seems to think its some kind of scam run buy GW to trick kids in to buying a "inferior " kit ,
Personally I love the old trucks and how easy they were to convert up .
Now if they did a drastic plastics I would be all over them
Seriously.. how does nobody else understand this?
If you own a company and you replace inferior, older products with something newer, the idea is to allow the newer products to become the face of your company's products and capabilities. Re-releasing inferior products (yes they are inferior in almost every conceivable way) is not something done by 99% of businesses. Why put the resources into it at all? If they want to make cheap starter kits then make cheap starter kits. Ork players have a hard enough time with being taken seriously, now on top of all else, we'll have this stuff floating around again..
Here's the thing.. I don't agree with the move. Everyone is replying by attacking my position and not defending GW's decision. I've heard no valid reasons to put out a kit that needs to be allowed to die in the comfort of it's home surrounded by loved ones only how stupid I am for questioning GW's infinite wisdom.
99
Post by: insaniak
MLaw wrote:
Here's the thing.. I don't agree with the move. Everyone is replying by attacking my position and not defending GW's decision. I've heard no valid reasons to put out a kit t hat needs to be allowed to die in the comfort of it's home surrounded by loved ones only how stupid I am for questioning GW's infinite wisdom.
Ah. So the problem is that you're taking disagreement as a personal attack.
I'd stop doing that, frankly.
You don't like these kits? That's fine. Others do, or don't see a problem with them being available as cheap starters, or have these models in their collections and so welcome the opportunity to buy more matching kits to expand their army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: MLaw wrote: I won't bother responding to the rest of your snark because you're clearly not interested in discussing this so much as just picking apart posts like they're entries in a rulebook or something. That and you didn't even bother reading my reply to someone else asking what I meant by "considered official".
I suspect that you missed my point. You seem to be looking for some sort of 'official' stamp that simply doesn't exist where GW is concerned. Outside of specific tournament rulings (which are uncommon, from my expetience) any of GW's models or rules are as 'official' as players want them to be.
82903
Post by: MLaw
insaniak wrote: MLaw wrote: Here's the thing.. I don't agree with the move. Everyone is replying by attacking my position and not defending GW's decision. I've heard no valid reasons to put out a kit t hat needs to be allowed to die in the comfort of it's home surrounded by loved ones only how stupid I am for questioning GW's infinite wisdom.
Ah. So the problem is that you're taking disagreement as a personal attack. I'd stop doing that, frankly. You don't like these kits? That's fine. Others do, or don't see a problem with them being available as cheap starters, or have these models in their collections and so welcome the opportunity to buy more matching kits to expand their army. Automatically Appended Next Post: MLaw wrote: I won't bother responding to the rest of your snark because you're clearly not interested in discussing this so much as just picking apart posts like they're entries in a rulebook or something. That and you didn't even bother reading my reply to someone else asking what I meant by "considered official".
I suspect that you missed my point. You seem to be looking for some sort of 'official' stamp that simply doesn't exist where GW is concerned. Outside of specific tournament rulings (which are uncommon, from my expetience) any of GW's models or rules are as 'official' as players want them to be.
Slow down just a second. I'm not taking anything as a personal attack. I'm saying that instead of addressing the release and the decision (and why it's a good idea to re-release a kit that was outmoded) people are attacking my position. I don't mean anyone's hurting my feelings or calling me names or any of that silliness. I'm saying that people are responding to my position instead of what my position is about. So, as an example, if I said I really hate the wings from Papa Johns, and the response I get is "so what you just think they shouldn't sell wings because you don't like them" then that neither addresses what I dislike about them or why their wings are or are not bad. I know conversations can be hard but when people would rather talk about the people saying the things being said rather than the subject of the conversation then not everyone is having the same conversation... which is where I think we are... and why I have sounded like a broken record for my last 4 or 5 posts to this thread... EDIT: As to missing your point.. again.. I already discussed that.. I had NOT seen the packaging and did not know if they were releasing as GW products or Citadel or something else entirely. As was my understanding, they were meant for big box retail and not hobby shop. This was already addressed and I did also offer up that unlike you I have had experiences where TOs have ruled against old models when there was a major difference in size between the models. Again though.. this is going back to what I'm saying and not what I'm talking about.. Why do people think this is a good move for GW vs investing in a new entry level kit that is more up to their modern standards? Look at the Hellbrute, AoBR Dreadnought, Deffkopta, etc.. YES, I get that it's cheaper to do this but that doesn't mean it's better..
3806
Post by: Grot 6
Does anyone know where these are being sold in Northwest Florida? I'd like a couple of these for starter Gorkamorka gangs.
82903
Post by: MLaw
 Grot 6 wrote:Does anyone know where these are being sold in Northwest Florida? I'd like a couple of these for starter Gorkamorka gangs.
If all else fails, they're on Amazon
876
Post by: Kalamadea
MLaw wrote:
Slow down just a second. I'm not taking anything as a personal attack. I'm saying that instead of addressing the release and the decision (and why it's a good idea to re-release a kit that was outmoded) people are attacking my position. I don't mean anyone's hurting my feelings or calling me names or any of that silliness. I'm saying that people are responding to my position instead of what my position is about.
They've done both. You've ignored all the points about being cheap intro kits for new players being sold in stores that 40K normally would not carry Warhammer, or from existing players that like having a cheaper option around, or from people that look at those old kits and remember how much fun they were and pick one up just for kicks. You also state that companies don't reuse old assets just because they have newer versions of those assets. Bandai still sells many of their older style Gundam kits even though they have newer ones that are better designed because the pricepoints are different and they cater to people of different skill levels. They even have different grades for their kit for this exact reason. The reason people are arguing against your stance is because YOU think the kits should not exist because YOU don't like them and YOU think they're ugly and too small, just because there's a more detailed option. But almost everyone else agrees that the old kits being around again is good because it offers choice. New players will look at those kits and think they're as cool as we did when they came out. Then they'll loook around the internet, see there's newer and better looking kits, but also MUCH more expensive kits. Most tween/teens are smart enough to know the difference between an entry level kit and a high end kit. That Perfect Grade Gundam kit is always WAY more awesome than the High Grade kit, but it's also $200 instead of $20, and if I've never really build a model before, that PG kit is gonna do nothing but frustrate me whereas a HG kit can be built in an afternoon and still look pretty darn cool as I fly it around and make pew-pew-pew noises.
The fact that there's 14 pages of people mostly saying "these are cool, where can I get them? When are they coming to my area?" should give you an idea that maybe there's some good value in these existing,even if you don't like them. In fact, the opinion "Wow, I think that thing is absolutely dreadfull, I can't imagine anybody liking that but clearly people do, so whatever floats your boat, I suppose" covers 90% of all movies, TV, music and toys I see nowadays
82903
Post by: MLaw
 Kalamadea wrote: MLaw wrote: Slow down just a second. I'm not taking anything as a personal attack. I'm saying that instead of addressing the release and the decision (and why it's a good idea to re-release a kit that was outmoded) people are attacking my position. I don't mean anyone's hurting my feelings or calling me names or any of that silliness. I'm saying that people are responding to my position instead of what my position is about.
They've done both. You've ignored all the points about being cheap intro kits for new players being sold in stores that 40K normally would not carry Warhammer, or from existing players that like having a cheaper option around, or from people that look at those old kits and remember how much fun they were and pick one up just for kicks. You also state that companies don't reuse old assets just because they have newer versions of those assets. Bandai still sells many of their older style Gundam kits even though they have newer ones that are better designed because the pricepoints are different and they cater to people of different skill levels. They even have different grades for their kit for this exact reason. The reason people are arguing against your stance is because YOU think the kits should not exist because YOU don't like them and YOU think they're ugly and too small, just because there's a more detailed option. But almost everyone else agrees that the old kits being around again is good because it offers choice. New players will look at those kits and think they're as cool as we did when they came out. Then they'll loook around the internet, see there's newer and better looking kits, but also MUCH more expensive kits. Most tween/teens are smart enough to know the difference between an entry level kit and a high end kit. That Perfect Grade Gundam kit is always WAY more awesome than the High Grade kit, but it's also $200 instead of $20, and if I've never really build a model before, that PG kit is gonna do nothing but frustrate me whereas a HG kit can be built in an afternoon and still look pretty darn cool as I fly it around and make pew-pew-pew noises. The fact that there's 14 pages of people mostly saying "these are cool, where can I get them? When are they coming to my area?" should give you an idea that maybe there's some good value in these existing,even if you don't like them. In fact, the opinion "Wow, I think that thing is absolutely dreadfull, I can't imagine anybody liking that but clearly people do, so whatever floats your boat, I suppose" covers 90% of all movies, TV, music and toys I see nowadays
14 pages of people oohing and ahhing over GW is pretty normal for this place.. They were sending out little lapel pin looking things and keychains and people were flipping their lids on that.. so sorry that 14 pages of people complimenting GW over a release I don't care for didn't sway my opinion.. The bit on the Gundam kits is the type of discussion I was looking for though and that offers valid points. However, I think it would have done them far more good to have invested in modernizing this kit at least a little. I really don't understand why people think that's a bad idea. Yeah it would have cost them a little money. It would have also drastically extended the life of the kit and also opened the market for it to more than just nostalgia and broke kids.. Again.. I am not saying there's no place for an entry level kit... As to the size, I honestly don't think the majority of the people who are happy about this realize how small they are.. or how short. Whatever, I think it's pretty obvious I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Oooh.. I'll go gripe to some Mantic players so they can feel like they might win me over 
57840
Post by: Ragnar69
MLaw wrote: CURNOW wrote:He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about people using old models when there are newer ones released. And also seems to think its some kind of scam run buy GW to trick kids in to buying a "inferior " kit ,
Personally I love the old trucks and how easy they were to convert up .
Now if they did a drastic plastics I would be all over them
Seriously.. how does nobody else understand this?
If you own a company and you replace inferior, older products with something newer, the idea is to allow the newer products to become the face of your company's products and capabilities. Re-releasing inferior products (yes they are inferior in almost every conceivable way) is not something done by 99% of businesses. Why put the resources into it at all? If they want to make cheap starter kits then make cheap starter kits. Ork players have a hard enough time with being taken seriously, now on top of all else, we'll have this stuff floating around again..
Here's the thing.. I don't agree with the move. Everyone is replying by attacking my position and not defending GW's decision. I've heard no valid reasons to put out a kit that needs to be allowed to die in the comfort of it's home surrounded by loved ones only how stupid I am for questioning GW's infinite wisdom.
I honestly don't see where I attacked anyone's position.
For me it makes a lot of sense to release these kits from a business perspective:
1) the cost is tiny compared to new kits
2) way easier to build than full kits
3) more robust, so better to withstands kids playing
4) are sold in toy stores to directly compete with plane models, toys and games, so have to be cheaper than normal kits
Sure, if I would still play my Orks I would have replaced my old trukks. But I wouldn't have moaned that I'm forced to spend money. Because you don't have to get the latest kit if you don't want to. GW is expensive as hell, but so are all hobbies. If I see what my friends spend on their hobbies I always get big eyes. Hell, a movie with the family costs more than a Start Collecting box.
edit: also going for a completely new distribution channel is highly risky. It would not have been a smart move to invest in new kits for this.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
My Ork army still has had all these Vedros Ork vehicles in it since they were released in Gorkamorka.
Old model kits are re-released all the time. The manufacturer gets to use an existing mold, getting an additional return on a previous investment, and cash in people getting the warm fuzzies for models they remember from 20 years ago. It's a good move.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Personally, I think it's great from both a business and hobby (not conflating GW with being its own hobby but hobby as in model-building/painting) perspective.
Business:
-Cheap and quick to get out.
-Diversifies product line.
-Branches out into currently untapped markets...or at least has a potential to if these kits start showing up at Hobby Lobby or Michaels or something similar.
Hobby:
-Simple, easy to put-together and paint kits for beginning modelers.
-Offers a simple game for kids to cut their teeth on rather than just lining up green army men and making pew-pew noises like I did when I was a kid.
MLAW,
I get what you're saying and agree in some respects but for once I don't think GW's in the wrong here. I think that, in their misguided way, they're attempting to broaden their corporate exposure by attempting to actually attract the customers that they have said are their target for years, kids.
If you seriously want to turn a kid off of 40k, hand them one of the fiddly, multi-pose so-and-so models that GW makes so well. If you want to attract kids, make colored plastics that are simple to put together and easy to paint then offer free rules for a simplified version of 40k. They cut their teeth on 40k-lite and then maybe eventually work their way into the larger game.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
My friend bought a Harlequin army for his daughter. She's 16 years old and she took one look at how many fidly bits they were in and basically refused to play until her father assembled the army for her.
Easy to assemble models have an appeal.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
MLaw wrote:I don't think you are reading or understanding what I am saying. I clearly mentioned kids. Kids are the only ones who WOULD be fooled by it. The reason I don't like this approach is because specifically it seems like it's aimed at entry level kids who are new to the hobby. Being a father of two children in that exact target group I am extremely tuned into this (if not a bit over sensitive)
No one's being 'fooled' by anything. No one is attempting to 'fool' anyone.
100848
Post by: tneva82
MLaw wrote:I stand corrected on the date but I think you're stretching semantics to claim they're not trying to treat this as a new release. For the uninitiated they have no clue that it's leftovers microwaved and being served up as cuisine.. The pricing tells the real story. It wouldn't have been hard at all for them to at least update the driver and gunner on either of those kits. Even if it was just to re-use the crew from the new Trukk kit or the Stompa crew or whatever. I suppose bits sellers will be busy supplying alternatives :/
Not hard no. Just costs as much as updating whole thing basically thus invalidating the point. They would then have to be sold for same price as current ork vehicles or even higher thus making models unsuitable for cheap gateway product thus making update pointless in the first place.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
I am fully interested in the ork side for ready made gangs. I think it was a good idea to pitch these for the smaller audience, as they are one of the more well spouted ideas about good cheap GW gateway drugs. We have been asking for them for years, and these sets would be additionally served with one for each army.
81007
Post by: brushcommando
I hope this is the correct thread to post this in, but I thought I'd share a few pics of one of the build and paint kits I got my hands on. I
Box Art:
As was said before it comes moulded in colored plastic, and interestingly, there is no base color included, so I guess you are supposed to paint directly over top the model without priming? Also, definitely marketed at modellers?collectors as it comes with a sheet laying out where to display all the various pieces in the kit to form a diorama.
Also, there is no mention of 40k the game. No rules like the vedros kits. The leaflet included mentions only more kits to collect and references the website. FInally, the art appears to differ from most 40k kits in that it is clearly painted using only the paints available in the kit itself, and not a 'eavy metal masterpiece.
Box Contents:
Display Mat
hope this is informative.
cheers
5462
Post by: adamsouza
Build and Paint kits are at home here.
Is that last pic a display mat ?
58873
Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Thanks bushcommando! Awesome pictures, and they are really helpful. The blue will really look nice when I never paint my miniatures.
557
Post by: alphaecho
adamsouza wrote:Build and Paint kits are at home here.
Is that last pic a display mat ?
Some of the larger kits' descriptions mention a play mat but I hadn't seen any pictures until now. It looks quite good.
81007
Post by: brushcommando
@adamsouza: It is, although it is made of paper (doesn't seem particularly durable) only. The pics came out kind of fuzzy, but those circles indicate where to place bases if you want to do a diorama. There was also another pic I forgot to post showing the completed diorama if you bought all the kits. Here it is: Edit: Also of note I just realized that this set comes with stickers, and not waterslide transfers for decals.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
Thanks for the clarification, and pic. Would have been better without the circles, but still better than nothing.
5394
Post by: reds8n
http://icv2.com/articles/reviews/view/36706/review-warhammer-40-000-build-paint-series-1-miniatures
new review
Warhammer 40,000 Build + Paint Series 1
Publisher: Games Workshop
Release Date (US): December 2016
MSRP: $39.99 for Space Marine Heavy Assault, other kits vary from $14.99 to $39.99.
Ages: 8 and up
Product #: 99172001001 (Space Marine Heavy Assault)
ICv2 Rating: 3.5 Stars out of 5
I was lucky: my introduction to miniatures painting was by a talented and very patient friend of the family (thanks, Duck!) who generously showed me the basics. Though it would be some years before I embraced the joys of tabletop miniature gaming, those basics stuck with me and gave me a huge leg up when it was time to start painting my own armies. But what about those who aren't so fortunate? How does one leap into the often-overwhelming world of minis? Well, one could do far worse than Games Workshop’s new line of Build + Paint mini kits, but sadly they aren't perfect for the task.
Summary: The Warhammer 40,000 Build + Paint Series 1 includes six different kits that feature the iconic foes of the Warhammer 40,000 world: the Space Marines and the Space Orks. Each kit includes a small number of plastic miniatures on sprues, an all-around utility brush, and a small assortment of tiny little jars of paint, along with a picture-based instruction booklet that shows how to assemble the models. Collect and build all six sets, and you end up with a nice little diorama display, using the full-color paper mat and plastic scenery pieces included in the various kits.
The stated purpose of these kits is to introduce new miniatures enthusiasts to the world of Warhammer 40,000. Each kit has a pamphlet inviting them to explore "a whole galaxy of miniatures," with the ultimate goal of joining the game’s global fan community.
Originality: Introducing new players to miniatures gaming always leads to the challenge of teaching them how to assemble and paint their own models so they can fully enjoy the experience. Over the years, there have been a number of attempts to create a product that would serve this purpose, and my hope was that Games Workshop would be able to use its resources, both physical and digital, to achieve this goal better than had been done before. Sadly, the final result did not live up to my hopes: instead it's a fairly typical set of minis with tiny paint pots, which is something we’ve seen many times before.
Presentation: Like always, Games Workshop does a fine job with the artistic presentation of their product: bright bold colors, dynamic action-filled artwork, easy-to-read titles and text. The box nicely presents the kit and explains what it is, along with a little blurb of "fluff" that is the hallmark of Warhammer. Sadly, they chose a flimsy paper tuckbox for the packaging, but considering that you’re not likely to use the box once you take the minis out and assemble them, that's forgivable.
Quality: Many of the models in Series 1 are actually the same models as the regular line of Warhammer 40,000. Others, like the Space Marine Dreadnought, are streamlined and simplified for a novice assembler. This was a great idea, and I wish that all of the models in the line had been given the same treatment, as some of the more complex models could overwhelm a new modeler (I'm looking at you, Land Speeder!). The models themselves are, naturally, well-detailed, top quality plastic minis, thoughtfully molded in colored plastic that matches the typical base coat color for the models--ultramarine blue for the Space Marines, green for the Orks--which will save new and excited painters a lot of time and effort (and paint).
The variety of paint colors included is very limited, with only three to six colors to choose from in each kit. Notably absent was a base coat color to match the color of the plastic that could be used to clean up the sloppy errors that a new painter will inevitably make. In some cases, the choice of plastic color actually undermines this goal, however, such as the Space Ork Trukkboyz truck, which comes in solid green but must be painted almost completely red.
But the real oversight is in the instructions, or lack thereof. I really wanted to see an in-depth explanation of how to prepare and assemble the models, along with step-by-step instructions on the basics of painting. If I were new to the hobby, and I picked up a Build + Paint, I would still be left off with no idea of where to begin, where I was going, or how to get there.
Marketability: Build + Paint kits are not going to appeal to existing players. In order to succeed, then, they must appeal to inexperienced modelers and compel them to embrace the hobby. Much of this appeal is going to be the price: The Space Marine Heavy Assault kit includes five Terminator Marines plus a Dreadnought. The Terminators alone normally retail for $50 (albeit in a more customizable form), which makes this kit a real bargain. The other kits offer similar deals.
Overall: Build + Paint Series 1 is not the model kit line I wanted it to be. It would have been far more effective as an introduction to the hobby if it had more models that were easier to assemble (snap fit, perhaps?), a more generous paint assortment, and a quality set of introductory-level instructions (or even better, links to on-line videos showing, step-by-step, the entire process from beginning to end).
But setting aside that disappointment, these are good, basic level model kits with a good all-around brush and enough paint to have a lot of fun painting and experimenting with some basic effects. This is not a terrible place for new miniatures gamers to start, particularly if they are excited by the Warhammer 40,000 setting. And that's why I give these kits 3.5 out of 5.
--William Niebling
35238
Post by: mattl
Finally picked up a couple of the Ork build+paint kits to get some Gorkamorka models, but had to import them from Italy.
Has anyone seen these in the US lately?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
First off, Holy Threadnomancy!
Second, considering the Vedros Facebook page has been offline for years, pretty sure these have OOP for years.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Please do not commit acts of thread necromancy, locking now.
|
|
