I can sort of deal with Primarchs - but only if the other factions get characters of similar scale. As with everything, powerful characters really need a foil of a similar magnitude to justify their inclusion (And I don't just mean Daemon Primarchs). It would be nice to see some Prime Orks, Phoenix Lords etc. come along to balance the Imperium. I'll not expound to much on that - there's already a thread over in 40k Background dealing with that.

Anti-grav is a change of pace design wise, but I still think it's too jarring for anything outside of HH/Custodes. Maybe I'll change my opinion in time, but the Repulsor and Astraeus just aren't my cup of tea.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I can sort of deal with Primarchs - but only if the other factions get characters of similar scale. As with everything, powerful characters really need a foil of a similar magnitude to justify their inclusion (And I don't just mean Daemon Primarchs). It would be nice to see some Prime Orks, Phoenix Lords etc. come along to balance the Imperium. I'll not expound to much on that - there's already a thread over in 40k Background dealing with that.

Anti-grav is a change of pace design wise, but I still think it's too jarring for anything outside of HH/Custodes. Maybe I'll change my opinion in time, but the Repulsor and Astraeus just aren't my cup of tea.

Plauge Marines and Thousand Sons are already in line with Primaris, while human factions should be shorter, and Orks should be slouchingly the size of normal humans (because they'd be closer to Astartes size if they had straighter backs), so really it's not an issue once GW finishes upsizing the CSM line to fix them.

We already have Phoenix Lords in the game, they just need new models. And I'd be okay with Ghaz becoming a Prime Ork if he moves to being a LoW. Actually make it a dual kit for Ghaz or a generic Prime Ork LoW (make them at least Guilliman sized) and we'd be set.

Again, sorry Clockwork - I meant scale in terms of scale of power. Understandable, considering we were talking about models. Fluff wise and model wise, all factions should have comparably powerful characters IMO.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Considering that the lore has always made it possible for the Primarchs to return (well...most of them)

It was just some King Arthur style legends. It actually happening is lame.

and the traitor Primarchs hovering out just out of sight in the lore (they REALLY should have been available to be in the game sooner honestly, them spending 10k years playing with legos or what have you has been a bit silly)

I have nothing against Chaos Primarchs; they have always existed in the fluff, and should have been playable sooner. And maybe their presence would the make the Chaos to feel like an actual threat for once... except that treat is instantly countered by the loyalist Primarchs.

The High Lords who stood against him were sacked and replaced with those who support him. Guilliman is currently THE voice of the Emperor. To defy him is to defy the Emperor himself.

Which is lame. And bad writing. Everyone just is awed by this deep-frozen usurper. Inquisition should have assassinated him after he tried his power grab.

If you want a power struggle in the Imperium we'd need another loyalist to be bickering with him and fighting with him over how the Imperium should be run (Dorn or the Lion would be the best fit for that).

Thank you for demonstrating the terribleness of Primarch fiction! Everything is about them. I really don't want this Primarch soap opera in 40K, FFS; there is already and entire endless book series and a full separate game dedicated for this crap.

But no, the power struggle should be between the traditionalists that want to maintain the status quo and their own power (the High Lords, the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition, Marines who do not want to bow down to a smurf) and those who want to try new things, lead by Guilliman.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Considering that the lore has always made it possible for the Primarchs to return (well...most of them)

It was just some King Arthur style legends. It actually happening is lame.

I disagree, but then again I happen to like Dorn enough to want him back and watch him punch Guilliman for cocking everything up in the last 10k years with his damned book.

 Crimson wrote:

and the traitor Primarchs hovering out just out of sight in the lore (they REALLY should have been available to be in the game sooner honestly, them spending 10k years playing with legos or what have you has been a bit silly)

I have nothing against Chaos Primarchs; they have always existed in the fluff, and should have been playable sooner. And maybe their presence would the make the Chaos to feel like an actual threat for once... except that treat is instantly countered by the loyalist Primarchs.

Considering the game is supposed to be everyone holding a kind of interstellar Mexican standoff (with the Imperium is suffering from a massive bleeding wound after being stabbed in the back) the Primarchs help balance the traitors from making Chaos have too much of an upperhand while highlighting that every claim about the end times for the Imperium are actually true.

This is a setting where myths and legends are usually true, so I'm all for them coming back. Plus a lot of us do want them back so that's enough justification for the studio to do it.

 Crimson wrote:

The High Lords who stood against him were sacked and replaced with those who support him. Guilliman is currently THE voice of the Emperor. To defy him is to defy the Emperor himself.

Which is lame. And bad writing. Everyone just is awed by this deep-frozen usurper. Inquisition should have assassinated him after he tried his power grab.

He's the son of the Emperor himself. If anyone is going to be in charge of what is basically a feudal system it'd be him. And I'm sure the Inqusition is watching him closely but I'm also betting Greyfax likely had a positive report on him (despite her being so hardline puritan she wants to purge Celestine in bed despite the Living Saint already being vouched for by the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy to be given the Saint title) which may have paved the way a bit for him.

 Crimson wrote:

If you want a power struggle in the Imperium we'd need another loyalist to be bickering with him and fighting with him over how the Imperium should be run (Dorn or the Lion would be the best fit for that).

Thank you for demonstrating the terribleness of Primarch fiction! Everything is about them. I really don't want this Primarch soap opera in 40K, FFS; there is already and entire endless book series and a full separate game dedicated for this crap.

Thanks for missing the point that that when bloodline succession is involved in anything (which is clearly what is being invoked with Guilliman) you need bloodline to counter bloodline to have a claim of legitimacy. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or work in setting.

 Crimson wrote:
But no, the power struggle should be between the traditionalists that want to maintain the status quo and their own power (the High Lords, the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition, Marines who do not want to bow down to a smurf) and those who want to try new things, lead by Guilliman.

Go read Dark Imperium. Not everyone is on Guilliman's side and many will try to passively resist him. But at the end of the day he's the next in line after the Emperor and if he claims the Emperor told him to rebuild the Imperium no one is going to stop him unless they can bring some damn solid evidence that he's lying (not likely considering Custodes are on his side) or has been corrupted by the circumstances of his death and rebirth (possible, but intentionally vague). But at the end of the day, even if you don't agree with him, the Imperium isn't going to fight him unless they KNOW he's a traitor. And with how screwed they are it's a matter of wait and see (unless someone else comes along who has the same level of legitimacy for being in charge, aka another son of the Emperor).

Someone being a traitor is a matter of perspective. Guilliman is concentrating all the power in his hands the way Horus could have ever dreamed off. And of course by doing so he has been revealed to be an utter hypocrite; it was his idea to break the Legions so that no single individual would have so much power, yet he amasses far greater power for himself.* And of course he is not really a son of the Emperor. He is a Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment.

* It would be an amazing ironical twist, if Ultramarines would decide to oppose him on these grounds. They're know to be fanatical about the Codex, and it would be fitting for them to choose to follow 'the holy book' rather than its author.

 Crimson wrote:
Someone being a traitor is a matter of perspective. Guilliman is concentrating all the power in his hands the way Horus could have ever dreamed off. And of course by doing so he has been revealed to be an utter hypocrite; it was his idea to break the Legions so that no single individual would have so much power, yet he amasses far greater power for himself.* And of course he is not really a son of the Emperor. He is a Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment.

* It would be an amazing ironical twist, if Ultramarines would decide to oppose him on these grounds. They're know to be fanatical about the Codex, and it would be fitting for them to choose to follow 'the holy book' rather than its author.

Red Scorpions would likely pull that route since they do see it as a holy tome and even criticize the Ultramarines for when they fail to follow it "properly".

Guilliman's hypocrisy is actually a large part of what is making him interesting as a character. And the Imperium as a whole doesn't know he's a lab experiment. Hell, even the Astartes during the Crusade didn't know what exactly their gene sires were.

As for his power grabbing, considering it's coming on the heels of Holy Terra being invaded by daemons, and the Imperium being cracked in half, he's only getting away from it because there are no voices with enough authority calling bs on his choices.

That said, I'm painting my Primaris Imperial Fists based on Legion standards so who am I to make fun of here?

I just think the fluff around Bobby G and the Primaris needs to be deepened so that the Primaris can stand on their own and there's a reason for old marines to actually exist anymore.

The above was just how I'd do it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Guilliman's hypocrisy is actually a large part of what is making him interesting as a character.

Hey, at least we agree about something! I really wish they'd do more with that angle.

Banville wrote:
I just think the fluff around Bobby G and the Primaris needs to be deepened so that the Primaris can stand on their own and there's a reason for old marines to actually exist anymore.

The above was just how I'd do it.

I'm all for squatting the old-startes just based on how much better the Primaris models are to work with to be honest.

That said, I do want a Codex: Primaris Marines because we know they don't follow the traditional codex (and can't due to wargear limitations) and GW has some serious potential to do something interesting with how the Primaris wage war.

I posted this elsewhere, might as well drop it in here with a copypasta.

Being perfectly honest, I don't see "Regular Astartes" going away, either. I don't think it will be "Primaris replacing them" at all. I do have a weird and outlandish theory, but a few people agree so it can't be that crazy.

I think over time we will see the two lines slowly phased together. There won't be any "Primaris", they'll all just be different variations of Space Marines and things like Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers will just be another 'squad type' rather than an entirely different type of Space Marine altogether.

Regular bolters will become bolt carbines, so you'd still be able to use them from your old kits. All the heads and shoulder pads are still interchangeable. A lot of parts are just easy to swap out and move around at will, so it's not like they're COMPLETELY incompatible as it is. I've not tested out making "Truescale" marines with any Primaris stuff and original Astartes, just a few head and hand swaps here and there, some shoulder pads obviously.

We'll just see new kits that make "Regular Astartes" bigger and feature the classic look from older armor types with longer legs and bigger arms/hips. They'll all be pretty similar in terms of size and all, and it'll at least keep people a bit less angry that they can use most of their old parts from classic marines to make 'bigger space marines' that are still pretty much Devastators, Assault Marines, Tacticals, etc.

So 'Primaris' will probably just be a footnote in the history of Space Marines, some phase where the geneseed flaws were worked on and stabilized, chapters were reinforced with troops of a new doctrine, and things will just sort of 'blend together' in terms of their differences (and perhaps even retconned entirely while keeping all the 'Formerly Known as Primaris' stuff around)

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I posted this elsewhere, might as well drop it in here with a copypasta.

Being perfectly honest, I don't see "Regular Astartes" going away, either. I don't think it will be "Primaris replacing them" at all. I do have a weird and outlandish theory, but a few people agree so it can't be that crazy.

I think over time we will see the two lines slowly phased together. There won't be any "Primaris", they'll all just be different variations of Space Marines and things like Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers will just be another 'squad type' rather than an entirely different type of Space Marine altogether.

Regular bolters will become bolt carbines, so you'd still be able to use them from your old kits. All the heads and shoulder pads are still interchangeable. A lot of parts are just easy to swap out and move around at will, so it's not like they're COMPLETELY incompatible as it is. I've not tested out making "Truescale" marines with any Primaris stuff and original Astartes, just a few head and hand swaps here and there, some shoulder pads obviously.

We'll just see new kits that make "Regular Astartes" bigger and feature the classic look from older armor types with longer legs and bigger arms/hips. They'll all be pretty similar in terms of size and all, and it'll at least keep people a bit less angry that they can use most of their old parts from classic marines to make 'bigger space marines' that are still pretty much Devastators, Assault Marines, Tacticals, etc.

So 'Primaris' will probably just be a footnote in the history of Space Marines, some phase where the geneseed flaws were worked on and stabilized, chapters were reinforced with troops of a new doctrine, and things will just sort of 'blend together' in terms of their differences (and perhaps even retconned entirely while keeping all the 'Formerly Known as Primaris' stuff around)

I think this would be a really good way to handle it. Though I'm not sure it is particularly likely.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And while not Primaris related specifically...I want the next loyalist primarch already. Chaos has two already and I don't want to have to run Dorn's model using Guilliman's rules just to have a Primarch in my collection.

Just no. And please get rid of the one loyalist Primarch we already have. Primaris fluff is stupid, but I can live with it, the loyalist Primarchs returning just ruins the setting though. If people want the game to be about those ludicrously sized man babies beating each other they can already play HH.


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Banville wrote:
This is straying into fluff territory but I think it'd be good for the setting to have the High Lords push back against Roboute's growing power. Maybe have the Imperial Fists and their successors as well as the Minotaurs row in on the 'Terran' side. Ultima Founding Chapters are split, with the Ultra ones siding with their Primarch. The traditional chapters, Sallies, Wolves etc start looking at their new Primaris recruits with renewed suspicion as marines of all stripes start questioning their own loyalties.

Basically Roboute starts sliding accidentally into Horus territory.

This would at least be way more interesting than everybody just kissing his shiny oversized arse and relinquishing all power to him.

This is why, while GW can be bad at fluff, I'm glad YOU guys aren't writing anything.

You don't JUST defy Primarchs. You utterly forget how over the top everything is in 40k fluff. Roboute was basically a God in stasis that people would take a pilgrimage to, and now that God is no longer in stasis and is asking people to do stuff. Why would Imperial Fists, a first founding chapter at that, defy a son of the Emperor trying to fix the crap going around them?

Easy answer: they don't. It's actually stupid to say otherwise. Nobody cares how much you hate Roboute. We won't replace mediocre fluff with what you guys want, which is actually completely worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This is why, while GW can be bad at fluff, I'm glad YOU guys aren't writing anything.

You don't JUST defy Primarchs. You utterly forget how over the top everything is in 40k fluff. Roboute was basically a God in stasis that people would take a pilgrimage to, and now that God is no longer in stasis and is asking people to do stuff. Why would Imperial Fists, a first founding chapter at that, defy a son of the Emperor trying to fix the crap going around them?

Easy answer: they don't. It's actually stupid to say otherwise. Nobody cares how much you hate Roboute. We won't replace mediocre fluff with what you guys want, which is actually completely worse.

Yes, god forbid there would be some tension, and not everybody just fawning over the perfect super popsicle! Guilliman is no god, he is an overgrown lab experiment resurrected as a zombie by a xeno witch and a heretech magos.

I don't get why the high lords would defy Bobby G, he was the original High Lord, the imperium's current structure is largely based on what him and Malcador did during/ slightly after the heresy.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

This is why, while GW can be bad at fluff, I'm glad YOU guys aren't writing anything.

You don't JUST defy Primarchs. You utterly forget how over the top everything is in 40k fluff. Roboute was basically a God in stasis that people would take a pilgrimage to, and now that God is no longer in stasis and is asking people to do stuff. Why would Imperial Fists, a first founding chapter at that, defy a son of the Emperor trying to fix the crap going around them?

Easy answer: they don't. It's actually stupid to say otherwise. Nobody cares how much you hate Roboute. We won't replace mediocre fluff with what you guys want, which is actually completely worse.

Yes, god forbid there would be some tension, and not everybody just fawning over the perfect super popsicle! Guilliman is no god, he is an overgrown lab experiment resurrected as a zombie by a xeno witch and a heretech magos.

The galaxy is split in half by warp stuff and they're still fighting a losing war. I don't know how much more tense you can really get.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't get why the high lords would defy Bobby G, he was the original High Lord, the imperium's current structure is largely based on what him and Malcador did during/ slightly after the heresy.

It's been 10k years since Bobby ran things and they like their little fiefdoms of power and were afraid he'd take them away. So he took them away and put other people in charge.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't get why the high lords would defy Bobby G, he was the original High Lord, the imperium's current structure is largely based on what him and Malcador did during/ slightly after the heresy.

So? I really wouldn't expect the current American government relinquish its authority to a zombie Washington who was resurrected by North Korean necromancers. (Even though it would obviously be an improvement in the current situation.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The galaxy is split in half by warp stuff and they're still fighting a losing war. I don't know how much more tense you can really get.

That is an external threat, not internal tension.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't get why the high lords would defy Bobby G, he was the original High Lord, the imperium's current structure is largely based on what him and Malcador did during/ slightly after the heresy.

So? I really wouldn't expect the current American government relinquish its authority to a zombie Washington who was resurrected by North Korean necromancers. (Even though it would obviously be an improvement in the current situation.)

America is a republic and doesn't rule by bloodline so that doesn't work as an example.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's been 10k years since Bobby ran things and they like their little fiefdoms of power and were afraid he'd take them away. So he took them away and put other people in charge.

And he really had no legal authority to do so. The whole Senate Imperialis is just a joke if one man, Primarch or not, can just come and unilaterally take control of it. It was a coup, there should be some serious resistance, and most importantly it would be more interesting if there would. It would also lend itself to some intra-imperial-infighting storylines, which would be good for forging the narrative™ for the games, considering that most people play imperial armies.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

America is a republic and doesn't rule by bloodline so that doesn't work as an example.

Imperium doesn't rule by a bloodline either. Guilliman is not Emperor's heir in legal sense, there can be no heir to a god.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's been 10k years since Bobby ran things and they like their little fiefdoms of power and were afraid he'd take them away. So he took them away and put other people in charge.

And he really had no legal authority to do so. The whole Senate Imperialis is just a joke if one man, Primarch or not, can just come and unilaterally take control of it. It was a coup, there should be some serious resistance, and most importantly it would be more interesting if there would. It would also lend itself to some intra-imperial-infighting storylines, which would be good for forging the narrative™ for the games, considering that most people play imperial armies.

They literally have a position in the High Lords of Terra named after him to serve as his representative for the last 10k years. He has the seat at the head of the bleeding table or did you forget that in your crusade against things you don't like?

Also the high lords seem to get overthrown all the time (basically everytime they're mentioned).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

America is a republic and doesn't rule by bloodline so that doesn't work as an example.

Imperium doesn't rule by a bloodline either. Guilliman is not Emperor's heir in legal sense, there can be no heir to a god.

Even a demi-god is more important than a man in that sense and is closer to the god than man is and is a better representative for the god than any man. Bam. That's how you look at it from an Imperial Cult POV. You're welcome.

Seriously, drop the Guilliman hate train. It's old, it's tired and most of your arguements make no sense in context of the setting (hell, how many people even know exactly how Guilliman woke up?).

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Also the high lords seem to get overthrown all the time (basically everytime they're mentioned).

Yea, he was a High Lord. Doesn't mean he can go around firing other High Lords. Furthermore, one could assume that once he was killed his term ended, and he can't just like that reclaim his position.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Also the high lords seem to get overthrown all the time (basically everytime they're mentioned).

Yea, he was a High Lord. Doesn't mean he can go around firing other High Lords. Furthermore, one could assume that once he was killed his term ended, and he can't just like that reclaim his position.

Even if the High lords didn't like him, they would have a hard time raising significant forces to resist him. The primarchs are revered as sons of GOD and Bobby already has the support of Custodes, Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, Grey Knights and the vast Majority if not nearly all Astartes forces. Add that he arrived on Terra with a Living Saint and moved quickly to replace the High Lords with his supports, the remaining ones have little chance to do anything to him.

 Crimson wrote:
I think this would be a really good way to handle it. Though I'm not sure it is particularly likely.

To be honest, I see it being more likely than the other possibilities...

A- They're going to keep making Midget Marines forever, using the same molds- you'll see! MUH BEAKIES!!!!!
B- Primaris are going to phase out all other Space Marines and be the only option, deal with it Grognards!

But uh, hey! You uh, any good with a file and a razor? Maybe you could dig up some regular marine torsos, see if they can be finagled into being stuck to Primaris hips or something? Just doing a little comparison here between the sizes I have on hand, the torso, down to the belt... not much of a size difference, really. A little bit shorter, but nothing a spacer couldn't fix if you had 'Primaris hips' on down that would fit. Just eyeballing it here, though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Even a demi-god is more important than a man in that sense and is closer to the god than man is and is a better representative for the god than any man. Bam. That's how you look at it from an Imperial Cult POV. You're welcome.

Seriously, drop the Guilliman hate train. It's old, it's tired and most of your arguements make no sense in context of the setting (hell, how many people even know exactly how Guilliman woke up?).

Do you really think this is a good narrative? A golden boy returns, he is handed the reins just like that, he fixes things and everybody likes him? How the feth is this an interesting story?

Do you know the story the Grand Inquisitor, by Dostoevsky? (Contained in the Brothers Karamazov.)
In it Jesus returns, but is imprisoned and ultimately be executed by the Catholic Inquisition. Because, you see, the Church had a good thing going, and they really didn't want Jesus to come back and start telling them to how to do things. So yes, I think a lot of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition would have that attitude. And it also makes hella better story.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Also the high lords seem to get overthrown all the time (basically everytime they're mentioned).

Yea, he was a High Lord. Doesn't mean he can go around firing other High Lords. Furthermore, one could assume that once he was killed his term ended, and he can't just like that reclaim his position.

Few problems with your claim here:
1. He was responsible for EVERYTHING IN THE IMPERIUM at the time of his death. This means he ran the High Lords too.
2. If his term ended they wouldn't have held his seat with a representative.

Also to give you some ideas of the executive level power he had:

Lord Commander of the Imperium

Primarch Roboute Guilliman, after the Horus Heresy, took command of the entirety of the Imperial armed forces and took the title Lord Commander of the Imperium in order to stabilise the Imperium and begin the reforms for which he is famous. He was the only person in the history of the Imperium to control all of the Imperial armed forces (before this, the Imperial war machine was administered by the War Council). The Lord Commander of the Imperium was one of the High Lords of Terra during its use.

Even after Guilliman's wounding at the hands of Fulgrim, the title of Lord of Commander of the Imperium was still used and its holder served as both chairman of the High Lords and commander-in-chief of the Imperium's disparate military forces. In honor of the Primarch, the Lord Commander was often simply referred to as "Lord Guilliman". The title is no longer used as of M41, but continued at least until mid-M32. Known holders of the title during this time include Udin Macht Udo[14] and Chapter Masters Koorland and Maximus Thane.

He literally had unchecked authority and reclaimed it when he came back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Even a demi-god is more important than a man in that sense and is closer to the god than man is and is a better representative for the god than any man. Bam. That's how you look at it from an Imperial Cult POV. You're welcome.

Seriously, drop the Guilliman hate train. It's old, it's tired and most of your arguements make no sense in context of the setting (hell, how many people even know exactly how Guilliman woke up?).

Do you really think this is a good narrative? A golden boy returns, he is handed the reins just like that, he fixes things and everybody likes him? How the feth is this an interesting story?

Do you know the story the Grand Inquisitor, by Dostoevsky? (Contained in the Brothers Karamazov.)
In it Jesus returns, but is imprisoned and ultimately be executed by the Catholic Inquisition. Because, you see, the Church had a good thing going, and they really didn't want Jesus to come back and start telling them to how to do things. So yes, I think a lot of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition would have that attitude. And it also makes hella better story.

I think it's better than your Horus Heresy 2: High Lord Boogaloo one. You want the mortals of the Imperium who are raised to revere the Emperor as a diety to deny the half-diety son who has performed a miraculous return from the dead during the darkest moment of their known history to pull a coup on him.

You're dreaming more than the Lion is and he's the one whose asleep.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Few problems with your claim here:
1. He was responsible for EVERYTHING IN THE IMPERIUM at the time of his death. This means he ran the High Lords too.
2. If his term ended they wouldn't have held his seat with a representative.

Chairman doesn't mean he can fire them.
They didn't hold his seat. That position didn't exist in the 40K era. Closest is the Lord Commander Militant, which has pretty much similar authority over military as Guilliman had.

I think it's better than your Horus Heresy 2: High Lord Boogaloo one. You want the mortals of the Imperium who are raised to revere the Emperor as a diety to deny the half-diety son who has performed a miraculous return from the dead during the darkest moment of their known history to pull a coup on him.

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

You're dreaming more than the Lion is and he's the one whose asleep.

And let's hope he stays that way!

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Few problems with your claim here:
1. He was responsible for EVERYTHING IN THE IMPERIUM at the time of his death. This means he ran the High Lords too.
2. If his term ended they wouldn't have held his seat with a representative.

Chairman doesn't mean he can fire them.
They didn't hold his seat. That position didn't exist in the 40K era. Closest is the Lord Commander Militant, which has pretty much similar authority over military as Guilliman had.

They held it up through M32 (and it's a recent retcon that the seat was removed sometime later). Regardless he was running the Imperium completely at the time. Your arguement is invalid about his levels of authority.

 Crimson wrote:

I think it's better than your Horus Heresy 2: High Lord Boogaloo one. You want the mortals of the Imperium who are raised to revere the Emperor as a diety to deny the half-diety son who has performed a miraculous return from the dead during the darkest moment of their known history to pull a coup on him.

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Go read Dark Imperium instead of crowing about stuff you clearly don't actually get. Guilliman is struggling to get stuff done. He declares the Indomitus Crusade a "victory" because the Imperium needs to feel that it can still win despite how the fight doesn't really end. He can't even stay and protect the 500 worlds from a plague seems to only be relieved by his presence because he knows it's a trap to keep him from taking charge and getting stuff done. He's forced to work with Cawl who he knows is lying to him but has no choice because no one else can supply the knowledge he needs to make an impact (Cawl running around to try and create new Blackstone Pylons). He has to make nice with a religious organization that goes against everything he knew before his death. One of the Primaris even muses that Guilliman might be lonely (describing him as a lonely demigod).

"Simplistic" my friggin boot. Just because you can't get past the memes doesn't mean there isn't something there worth looking at and looking forward to. Take your pointless projection and aim it somewhere else because you're so far off base you're not even describing the same person anymore.

 Crimson wrote:

You're dreaming more than the Lion is and he's the one whose asleep.

And let's hope he stays that way!

Go tell the Dark Angels players that and see how well that flies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They held it up through M32 (and it's a recent retcon that the seat was removed sometime later). Regardless he was running the Imperium completely at the time. Your arguement is invalid about his levels of authority.

Oh no, the seat ever existing is the retcon! The Composition of the High Lords of Terra has been known at least since the second edition. Also, he had authority over the military, just like the Lord Commander Militant, not the Imperium as a whole.

Go read Dark Imperium instead of crowing about stuff you clearly don't actually get. Guilliman is struggling to get stuff done. He declares the Indomitus Crusade a "victory" because the Imperium needs to feel that it can still win despite how the fight doesn't really end. He can't even stay and protect the 500 worlds from a plague seems to only be relieved by his presence because he knows it's a trap to keep him from taking charge and getting stuff done. He's forced to work with Cawl who he knows is lying to him but has no choice because no one else can supply the knowledge he needs to make an impact (Cawl running around to try and create new Blackstone Pylons). He has to make nice with a religious organization that goes against everything he knew before his death. One of the Primaris even muses that Guilliman might be lonely (describing him as a lonely demigod).

"Simplistic" my friggin boot. Just because you can't get past the memes doesn't mean there isn't something there worth looking at and looking forward to. Take your pointless projection and aim it somewhere else because you're so far off base you're not even describing the same person anymore.

None of this really translates into anything tangible in 40K, and it is still about him heroically fixing things, even though he cannot fix everything perfectly.

Holy moly, Clockwork, people sniping at Guilliman has really got your goat, hasn't it? Just for the record, I have nothing against Bobby G or the Ultima Founding, I just think the story needs complication and a reason for the Primaris to exist alongside regular marines. I'd also like an angle so that you get some Badab War style internecine strife.

Also, as far as I'm aware, the Imperium doesn't rule by bloodline. It never had the chance. The Imperium is ruled pretty much by bureaucracy and assassination. Kind of like an exaggerated 15th Century Florence or Roman Senate.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They held it up through M32 (and it's a recent retcon that the seat was removed sometime later). Regardless he was running the Imperium completely at the time. Your arguement is invalid about his levels of authority.

Oh no, the seat ever existing is the retcon! The Composition of the High Lords of Terra has been known at least since the second edition. Also, he had authority over the military, just like the Lord Commander Militant, not the Imperium as a whole.

I remember the Lord Guilliman position existing in the lore long before Bobby ever made a return. Maybe not in 2nd, but 2nd got a lot of rewrites in 3rd as they tweaked the tone and setting further.

Go read Dark Imperium instead of crowing about stuff you clearly don't actually get. Guilliman is struggling to get stuff done. He declares the Indomitus Crusade a "victory" because the Imperium needs to feel that it can still win despite how the fight doesn't really end. He can't even stay and protect the 500 worlds from a plague seems to only be relieved by his presence because he knows it's a trap to keep him from taking charge and getting stuff done. He's forced to work with Cawl who he knows is lying to him but has no choice because no one else can supply the knowledge he needs to make an impact (Cawl running around to try and create new Blackstone Pylons). He has to make nice with a religious organization that goes against everything he knew before his death. One of the Primaris even muses that Guilliman might be lonely (describing him as a lonely demigod).

"Simplistic" my friggin boot. Just because you can't get past the memes doesn't mean there isn't something there worth looking at and looking forward to. Take your pointless projection and aim it somewhere else because you're so far off base you're not even describing the same person anymore.

None of this really translates into anything tangible in 40K, and it is still about him heroically fixing things, even though he cannot fix everything perfectly.

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Except thats not what happens?

The universe was going to hell, RG is resurected and discovers that not only has everything he fought and died for has failed but it was built on lies.

He is now struggling to keep whats left together - much of which he is horrified by - thats a very different narrataive to the false one that you are seeing and stating and compeltey in tune with the grim dark of 40k.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Except thats not what happens?

The universe was going to hell, RG is resurected and discovers that not only has everything he fought and died for has failed but it was built on lies.

He is now struggling to keep whats left together - much of which he is horrified by - thats a very different narrataive to the false one that you are seeing and stating and compeltey in tune with the grim dark of 40k.

Pretty much my complaint about people complaining about RG coming back: they aren't even describing the actual person in their complaints, just a strawman they claim exists and when you prove them wrong they move goal posts and tell you your proof doesn't count.

I want more Primarchs because frankly not everyone wants to run Guilliman, and there is greater chances for infighting within the Imperium with more of them. Plus by allowing the Imperium to "power up" the rest of the setting can be allowed to increase their level of threat back again instead of being locked in this position where nothing is allowed to improve (despite three armies being based on improving themselves constantly (Nids who grow via food, Orks who grow via fighting, and Tau who grow via more experiences and developing counter measures) past a certain point lest they tip the power level too much and wreck the setting.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Except thats not what happens?

The universe was going to hell, RG is resurected and discovers that not only has everything he fought and died for has failed but it was built on lies.

He is now struggling to keep whats left together - much of which he is horrified by - thats a very different narrataive to the false one that you are seeing and stating and compeltey in tune with the grim dark of 40k.

Yes, that is an attempt to paint him as a tragic figure. Doesn't really work for me. He is still a big damn hero, everybody loves him and he wins most of the time. Sure, there are terrible obstacles, but overcoming (some of) them makes the hero to seem even greater. And even if one found Guilliman himself a compelling character, it doesn't mean that the resulting overall narrative is compelling. I think dysfunctional divided Imperium, High Lords scheming and having their own conflicting agendas, is far more interesting than everybody uniting under one shiny leader.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Except thats not what happens?

The universe was going to hell, RG is resurected and discovers that not only has everything he fought and died for has failed but it was built on lies.

He is now struggling to keep whats left together - much of which he is horrified by - thats a very different narrataive to the false one that you are seeing and stating and compeltey in tune with the grim dark of 40k.

Yes, that is an attempt to paint him as a tragic figure. Doesn't really work for me. He is still a big damn hero, everybody loves him and he wins most of the time. Sure, there are terrible obstacles, but overcoming (some of) them makes the hero to seem even greater. And even if one found Guilliman himself a compelling character, it doesn't mean that the resulting overall narrative is compelling. I think dysfunctional divided Imperium, High Lords scheming and having their own conflicting agendas, is far more interesting than everybody uniting under one shiny leader.

Except the Imperium is founded on following the guy in the shiniest armor (why else would the Emperor wear gold?).....

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I want more Primarchs because frankly not everyone wants to run Guilliman, and there is greater chances for infighting within the Imperium with more of them.

Or how about having some characters who are not Primarchs (or even Space Marines) who have some agency? Shocking thought, I know.

Plus by allowing the Imperium to "power up" the rest of the setting can be allowed to increase their level of threat back again instead of being locked in this position where nothing is allowed to improve (despite three armies being based on improving themselves constantly (Nids who grow via food, Orks who grow via fighting, and Tau who grow via more experiences and developing counter measures) past a certain point lest they tip the power level too much and wreck the setting.

You don't need to power up to Imperium to increase the threat. that achieves nothing. Imperium is still controlling majority of the galaxy, no other faction comes even close. Imperium can easily take some serious beating without a danger of becoming extinct.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I want more Primarchs because frankly not everyone wants to run Guilliman, and there is greater chances for infighting within the Imperium with more of them.

Or how about having some characters who are not Primarchs (or even Space Marines) who have some agency? Shocking thought, I know.

We have dozens of them. Just because we have Primarchs doesn't invalidate them.

If anything it's the Ynarri character who is running around killing dramatic tension at the moment.

 Crimson wrote:

Plus by allowing the Imperium to "power up" the rest of the setting can be allowed to increase their level of threat back again instead of being locked in this position where nothing is allowed to improve (despite three armies being based on improving themselves constantly (Nids who grow via food, Orks who grow via fighting, and Tau who grow via more experiences and developing counter measures) past a certain point lest they tip the power level too much and wreck the setting.

You don't need to power up to Imperium to increase the threat. that achieves nothing. Imperium is still controlling majority of the galaxy, no other faction comes even close. Imperium can easily take some serious beating without a danger of becoming extinct.

Increasing the threat breaks the Imperium completely and then the setting is over. Go look at WFB which saw that exact thing balance out. The arms race between factions is stalled because the Imperium lacked a way forward to match that increased threat. Now we have Primarchs and Primaris to help correct it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Except the Imperium is founded on following the guy in the shiniest armor (why else would the Emperor wear gold?).....

Yes, that is why they followed him, he had the shiniest armour... *eyeroll*

Also, a big part of appeal of 40K is that the time of such shiny heroes is long past, the Emperor is a rotting corpse; it is the time of decline. Bringing them back ruins all that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I want more Primarchs because frankly not everyone wants to run Guilliman, and there is greater chances for infighting within the Imperium with more of them.

Or how about having some characters who are not Primarchs (or even Space Marines) who have some agency? Shocking thought, I know.

We have dozens of them. Just because we have Primarchs doesn't invalidate them.

Yet you just said we need more Primarch to compete with Guilliman. Let some Inquisitor or a High Lord to do that!

Increasing the threat breaks the Imperium completely and then the setting is over. Go look at WFB which saw that exact thing balance out. The arms race between factions is stalled because the Imperium lacked a way forward to match that increased threat. Now we have Primarchs and Primaris to help correct it.

Absolute bollocks! Did you read nothing I wrote? Chaos can take over third of the Imperium and yet Imperium would control more space. And of course lorewise Chaos has not gotten upgrades, their Primarch have always been there, yet they somehow have never overrun the Imperium in all there years when there was no Primarchs or Primaris defending the Imperium.

Having just sold all my old Space Marines and sticking only with Primaris-related stuff for the future, I really would like to get some good dedicated anti-tank option.

Lascannons are just superior to Plasma Incinerators no matter how you slice it. The ability to get more damage with less risk to the firer is key, and plasma is the only anti-tank outside of a 300+ point tank that Primaris have.

Melee options would be nice, too. Give me something that can deepstrike like Terminators and actually hurt something. Aggressors with a dedicated Melee loadout and a deepstrike ability would be nice, even if they couldn't fire a single shot.

And finally, some cheaper options. Just anything to fill in the gaps in points you get after you pay 150+ for every kind of unit and have that random 50 points left over.

PS: Invulns would be nice. Everything else in the galaxy has invul saves these days but the newest and greatest Primaris marines don't? What's up with that?

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Except the Imperium is founded on following the guy in the shiniest armor (why else would the Emperor wear gold?).....

Yes, that is why they followed him, he had the shiniest armour... *eyeroll*

Also, a big part of appeal of 40K is that the time of such shiny heroes is long past, the Emperor is a rotting corpse; it is the time of decline. Bringing them back ruins all that.

Clearly sarcasm failed to convey over the internet once again.

40k has always had it's BIG DAMN HEROES (or else we wouldn't have named characters in the game), the thing is all of them (not you Cato) have lore that paint them as fallible (not you Cato) and struggling to make a difference (not you Cato).

This extends to the Primarchs, both before and after the Heresy, and even more so in the modern setting. During the Great Crusade they had the vision of the Emperor to bind them into a single entity, to drive them forward and give them them the limitless resources and momentum to conquer the galaxy.

Take the modern, broken Imperium and what do you have? No leadership. No cohesive vision. Petty squabbling and infighting. Ego tripping.

Heck, even during the Heresy we saw hints of what happens when you take away the Emperor's vision and let them do whatever. Imperium Secondus anyone?

To claim that to inject large names into the setting somehow makes it worse is to ignore everything that proves that it only adds new layers of squabbling and ego tripping while giving us a way to see the way different people react to being the "man out of time" in the new setting.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right. So you like a simplistic shining giant hero saves the day and everybody loves narrative. Got it.

Except thats not what happens?

The universe was going to hell, RG is resurected and discovers that not only has everything he fought and died for has failed but it was built on lies.

He is now struggling to keep whats left together - much of which he is horrified by - thats a very different narrataive to the false one that you are seeing and stating and compeltey in tune with the grim dark of 40k.

Yes, that is an attempt to paint him as a tragic figure. Doesn't really work for me. He is still a big damn hero, everybody loves him and he wins most of the time. Sure, there are terrible obstacles, but overcoming (some of) them makes the hero to seem even greater. And even if one found Guilliman himself a compelling character, it doesn't mean that the resulting overall narrative is compelling. I think dysfunctional divided Imperium, High Lords scheming and having their own conflicting agendas, is far more interesting than everybody uniting under one shiny leader.

As opposed to say the Space Wolves? and their untarnsihed aura of awesomeness

The High Lords are still scheming, the Imperium is not literally divided physcially and the agendas of those pledging allegiance to RG are various.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


40k has always had it's BIG DAMN HEROES (or else we wouldn't have named characters in the game), the thing is all of them (not you Cato) have lore that paint them as fallible (not you Cato) and struggling to make a difference (not you Cato).

This extends to the Primarchs, both before and after the Heresy, and even more so in the modern setting. During the Great Crusade they had the vision of the Emperor to bind them into a single entity, to drive them forward and give them them the limitless resources and momentum to conquer the galaxy.

Take the modern, broken Imperium and what do you have? No leadership. No cohesive vision. Petty squabbling and infighting. Ego tripping.

Heck, even during the Heresy we saw hints of what happens when you take away the Emperor's vision and let them do whatever. Imperium Secondus anyone?

To claim that to inject large names into the setting somehow makes it worse is to ignore everything that proves that it only adds new layers of squabbling and ego tripping while giving us a way to see the way different people react to being the "man out of time" in the new setting.

First of, it has not been about heroes, it has been about terrible people, some of them quite powerful.

You seem to understand that internal conflict is a feature, but then how you can fail to see that having a Primarch to be (or a least representing him as) such a ludicrously influential figure that no-one dares to challenge him kills a lot of that?

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


40k has always had it's BIG DAMN HEROES (or else we wouldn't have named characters in the game), the thing is all of them (not you Cato) have lore that paint them as fallible (not you Cato) and struggling to make a difference (not you Cato).

This extends to the Primarchs, both before and after the Heresy, and even more so in the modern setting. During the Great Crusade they had the vision of the Emperor to bind them into a single entity, to drive them forward and give them them the limitless resources and momentum to conquer the galaxy.

Take the modern, broken Imperium and what do you have? No leadership. No cohesive vision. Petty squabbling and infighting. Ego tripping.

Heck, even during the Heresy we saw hints of what happens when you take away the Emperor's vision and let them do whatever. Imperium Secondus anyone?

To claim that to inject large names into the setting somehow makes it worse is to ignore everything that proves that it only adds new layers of squabbling and ego tripping while giving us a way to see the way different people react to being the "man out of time" in the new setting.

First of, it has not been about heroes, it has been about terrible people, some of them quite powerful.

You seem to understand that internal conflict is a feature, but then how you can fail to see that having a Primarch to be (or a least representing him as) such a ludicrously influential figure that no-one dares to challenge him kills a lot of that?

3rd edition was nicknamed "Herohammer" and Space Wolves are all about their heroes. Claiming it's not about heroes is like spitting on my and telling it's raining. The thing is that everyone takes sides on whose heroes are actually wrong (see every: Magnus did nothing wrong claim).

Primarchs are just as hypocritical, petty and reprehensible as everyone else in the setting but you want to claim they're somehow the knight in shining armour which is just laughable.

Banville wrote:
Holy moly, Clockwork, people sniping at Guilliman has really got your goat, hasn't it? Just for the record, I have nothing against Bobby G or the Ultima Founding, I just think the story needs complication and a reason for the Primaris to exist alongside regular marines. I'd also like an angle so that you get some Badab War style internecine strife.

Also, as far as I'm aware, the Imperium doesn't rule by bloodline. It never had the chance. The Imperium is ruled pretty much by bureaucracy and assassination. Kind of like an exaggerated 15th Century Florence or Roman Senate.

It's because the hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan is silly and has no place in this discussion. They do more harm than good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's because the hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan is silly and has no place in this discussion. They do more harm than good.

There has been no such, I don't frequent that site. My impression of the things is based solely on GW studio material.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's because the hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan is silly and has no place in this discussion. They do more harm than good.

There has been no such, I don't frequent that site. My impression of the things is based solely on GW studio material.

You clearly don't read much into just that either if your hatred is that strong.

Well I'm glad you shut me up and got this thread right back on subject, Clockwork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But hey, you're right about one thing; I do love artisanal garlic butter, and will testify about its healing ways. And of course, death hex is doubly irrelevant to a primaris discussion as a) their version can't hold a candle to it and b) they're immune to it, having no invulns to negate